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Rumours, threats and the South African media

Andrew Harding | 16:43 UK time, Tuesday, 13 July 2010

Much discussion here in South Africa right now about how the local media should handle the issue of xenophobia.

For many months now, rumours and threats have been circulating about a possible outbreak of violence against immigrant workers in South Africa immediately after the World Cup.

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Given the horrific clashes in 2008, it's no surprise that a lot of Zimbabweans, Malawians and others here are extremely worried at the moment. Idle threats? Perhaps, but there have been some incidents already
and there's no mistaking the fear in the voices of several people I've spoken to in the last couple of days.

The authorities initially seemed keen to deny there was even an issue to discuss - and that all those suddenly leaving the country were simply migrant workers. But now they are becoming a lot more proactive.

It's a sensitive subject for journalists to cover.

There's a danger that we become part of the problem - whipping up hysteria, spreading rumours, and either fuelling violence or doing the work of those who simply want foreigners out of their communities. You'd be surprised how quickly a camera crew can become a magnet, or catalyst, for trouble - I've seen it several times myself.

But there's also as this commentator argues a danger in staying silent.

Personally I think the media here have got it just about right - raising questions, nudging the authorities to take preventative measures, and hopefully helping to make sure that South Africa's well-earned World Cup honeymoon does not end too abruptly.

Comments

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  • 1. At 7:30pm on 13 Jul 2010, George Oyeho wrote:

    Where there is smoke, there must be some fire. Therefore, the xenophobia expressed by the citizens of South Africa may have some elements of truth. However, the media being the target here tends to be sensational in presenting their works. This in turn raises emotions and denies the opportunity for objective look through on issues.
    South Africa is still working itself through the infrastructure that would allow those in dire need to access education, job markets, housing, clean water, health services and may be land ownership. Therefore, it may require a little sobber mind for the media to bring all takeholders to the table to discuss the way forward without sensation.

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  • 2. At 4:41pm on 14 Jul 2010, KaiinSA wrote:

    Andrew, I agree with you in as much as it does need the media's attention in order to highlight what is going on and to give the victims a voice, in that regard I feel that the whole subject does need a much wider platform to encourage international attention and pressure to act rather than just local.

    We are in fear of the government resting on their lurals thinking that because the world cup passed without any major hicup they can ignore the day to day.

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  • 3. At 5:25pm on 14 Jul 2010, sagat4 wrote:

    I do agree that there are xenophobic attacks in SA like in every country in this planet. As an African, i have read and heard about these attacks and i think a balanced reporting is key.

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  • 4. At 02:16am on 15 Jul 2010, Libax wrote:

    There should be more news coverage on this topic in order to highlight the mistreatment of entrepreneurial refugees/migrants in South Africa to the people of South Africa. Most of the hate and violence are directed at productive newcomers which South Africa needs. We really want to find out where the ruling ANC government stands on this issue. It seems this government is silent over the fundamental issues that persist in South Africa (fighting AIDS, job creation, immigration policy, etc,). Sometimes I feel as if the ANC follows this policy: "Let things take care of themselves".

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  • 5. At 5:16pm on 15 Jul 2010, Mze-djimba wrote:

    Andrew Harding plus the militias!!! Everyone can see the kinds of comments coming in few hours after the “back-hit article” was posted. They just focus on reaching the world as many people as they can to tell them bad things about South Africa, that only their clear goal.

    First of all, as normal from you when we face a South African issue you keep writing Multiple on one topic and this was not your first article on the same topic, you did wrote one on Monday, 31 May 2010 in this same blog, so why you repeat the same article instead of just giving update on the first article?

    Secondly looking through your written on this latest article you shrewdly tried to tell the world that “there are issues here but we can’t talk about it as we scare of been label as setting-up the fire so we have to shut-up.

    Playing like this, I remember the results came out once after one world Government tried to block & ban the media from airing any information on a case concern to milt million dollar compensation money had to be paid from one European company to an African country few months ago.

    That is what you try here and your militias got it and probably will be going well as those who went every fir and wider to spread rumours and lies before the world cup, their aim was only to deny South Africa the right and trust from the world, now they will try to show case on this.

    Here I would like to congratulate you both (Andrew and the militias) for your success to manage to pull some fans from coming to South Africa during the world cup.

    However, those who didn’t followed your indirect and sometimes direct instructions to not come to South Africa they already quote all over the world media insulting you for brainwashing them and telling them only bad things about the country which have many marvellous things to enjoy.

    I have already commented on the previous thread of the same topic so I have nothing else to say here, also under the topic “Africa spreads its dreams under Ghana's feet” on comment number 13 I highlighted what I would like people to consider when you are going through this subject.

    Last; I would like to remind those militias who will in another side claim to be loyal South Africans, I would like to remind you some few non South African stories and would like you to pay attention to the ways they had been covered by you due to Hidden agenders.

    -Moves around BBC or over the American media and see how much space they put for the incidents which lead the dearth of thousands in eastern Europe nearly decade ago and the victims were been buried in the last few days, look how much and how it has been said.

    - try to rewind and look at the technics & vocabularies were used by the Andrew Harding corporations both in the US & UK on the eve of their master’s preparations to invade Iraq, more sinister, look at what they are saying now after the world come to know the full picture.

    -You can shop around from the Shahram Amiri, the christianist Ireland violence going on, etc and look at the calmness & smoothness these burning stories has been aired by Andrew Harding’s colleges. And then look at the Iranian woman (Sakineh Ashtiani) and the ways the same guys gave coverage to her story, is totally far different from the way they cover the Ronnie Lee Gardner’s Story.

    I would like to end by remind those who don’t know the power of the media that when you go between the lines of BBC-CNN you can see that their fair & balance reporting is the cause of the birth of Aljazeera and now Aljazeera have many followers than anyone of the two mouthpiece of the empires.

    KaiinSa, libax and Andrew remember that ”Propaganda is a work to manipulate a public opinion

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  • 6. At 10:58am on 16 Jul 2010, KaiinSA wrote:

    It's so sad that some people can't get off their out dated and unimportant soap box long enough to look at the problems and care about the real victims.

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  • 7. At 3:50pm on 16 Jul 2010, Martyn abrahams wrote:

    To address a potential problem or to bring it to the fore does not make it Anti- African, neither is it being negative if it is construed as constructive criticism.

    South Africa is moving now towards the end of the honeymoon phase of the World Cup and reality will begin to bite.

    The Malema's of this country will spew their hatred once again, crime will once again be on the agenda and already the Minister of National Intelligence, Dr Siyabonga Cwele is looking at having a bill passed making it illegal to criticise the government or withhold information, this single-minded intention is to control the flow of government information by inhibiting whistle blowers and stopping investigative journalism. It is a direct assault on the Constitution and should be vigorously opposed by all South Africans who support constitutional government.

    How long before reporting about xenophobia or denouncing the incompetence of government becomes a crime?

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  • 8. At 7:57pm on 16 Jul 2010, Mze-djimba wrote:

    Clearly from comment number 6 and the other previous comments posted by the same ID tells the size of the cripple mind this person is suffering from, What is the unimportant and whose the victims?

    Not only the fact that the written skills explains but to boast her/himself that he adopt a black child and successfully managed to make him proudly Afririkaner it boggle the mind.

    Not only that your boer leader made it clear on the video I asked you on comment number 58 to look but also history told us that it never happened Afrikaner caring for African.

    I am one of those who use laugh if I read the name Afrikaner, is for some Europeans who didn’t like to be or not be Africans therefore they put themselves in the middle and called themselves this boerawish name.

    However, with you contradicting your leader and now managed to turn an African to be proudly africaner just because you claim to adopt him, I guess your success present the logic that there should be a time Africans who adopt you in their countries will have to convent you to be full a time proudly Zulu or Xhosa,-hehehe.

    And to (Martin Abrahams): I know nothing about the bill you are talking about but you don’t have to worry that the Africans who gave you democracy will reclaim it.

    When your fathers were in power for hundreds of years they never knew anything called democracy, there were the worst dictators the world ever know.

    And for all of the African states to get what I should call it a “eunuch positions” they have now they all had to fight with your fathers for what in your language you call “fighting for independence

    So the Africans are the ones who introduced democracy to South Africa and they are not the ones who are going to take it back, I am sure they will preserve it

    However, for you to look at the old and new laws are putting in place all over the so-called developed world and see how much restrictions and impunities their citizens are forced to lien on I m sure if you took sometimes to think about these countries then you could write something else.

    They are the ones who wrote the current constitution which is ranking among the few best in the world, while we all know the constitution your father’s minds were capable to write. So sit-down and relax.

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  • 9. At 10:19pm on 16 Jul 2010, Martyn abrahams wrote:

    @Mze-djimba
    The worst dictators ever known were indeed white and oriental
    .
    If you talking about Africa the worst dictators have been black.
    Robert Mugabe- murdering 20 000
    Mengistu Haile Mariam- had 1.5 million of his own people killed
    Al Bashir- brutally repressed southern Sudan
    Idi Amin- 300 000 people
    Charles Taylor0 used rape and torture
    Jean Bedel Bokassa-Whilst enriching himself to the tune of US $125 Million, Bokassa brutalised and exploited his people with apparent flair. His ‘hands on’ approach led Bokassa to be personally involved in atrocities including torture, executions and even cannibalism.

    If you go look at the records you will see that 20 000 people a year are murdered in South Africa. That number has remained pretty constant since 1994.
    How many people were killed during apartheid? Go check the TRc's findings- less than 2000 people between 1960 and 1994 in politically related violence.

    If you want to talk about tradegies start talking constructive engagement not ignorance and black nationalism and indeed if you talking colonialism don't forget that it you seeing colour not me.

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  • 10. At 3:11pm on 17 Jul 2010, Mze-djimba wrote:

    martiny Abraham9: you don’t look at the image in the right way sorry. What is dictatorship and slavery? If you come to realise that dictator is forcing someone or people to do things on your way for your only greedy profit.

    And you agree that your European fathers invented the system and applied it on themselves and then on their victims everywhere they went for their known benefits.

    You should be able to realise that they now only change the names of the labels but not change on the policy.

    After they had accumulated enough wealth & enough authorities now the change the strategy or what I should say the gear, but didn’t bother to even change the uniform.

    Today those same people who arrogate themselves the title civilized or renascence nations while in the same time privileges themselves the ultimate weapon called UN-veto, and this should explain to you that nothing change in fact things are worst, we have many poorer than in any other time on the history of men on this planet, and in the same time we have so much wealth on the planet than in any other time, to make it short for you, we have seven billion people in the world and 10% of the them owned 90% of the wealth of the world.

    Those ten percent don’t flies with air force one but with much controllable and junk faster jet called globalization & free market.

    They don’t need to have visa as the UN is there to validate their journey, they don’t need to worry about pocket money as IMF & world bank is there only for their success.

    The same who benefited from the sweat of the slaves yesterday are the same who are benefiting and using their veto to reach wherever they want go.

    The victims of yesterday are the victims of today. And allow me to tell you that those so-called the big five are still forcing and threatening those who don’t want listen to them, that is dictatorship.

    Those who want go against the interest of the big five will have to face what Saddam, Castro, Mugabe and all of the Governments of the second & third world are going through right now, You will be listed, watched and then isolated by all means.

    I think the one who named the so-called UN as a “untied of terror” he was quiet right.

    In Africa (I have to tell you that I did travelled nearly all over Africa) in the continent every African will tell you that those Bouncers who are lucky selected to be in the eunuch presidential palace they been putting there by Paris, London and Washington and surely those who are removed it’s the same mob are doing that, (past & present).

    Since you are white South Africa you should understand this but I have to be fair and aware with your famous unique mindset which makes you oppose Mugabe no matter what, you should understand that Zimbabwe is been brought to its knees by the above mention capitals as the African Zimbabweans who fought against the British to get their African land back in the 80s went in 2000 to get their land.

    And the big five didn’t like that; none of the big five is ready to see Africans own wealth. You can see how the three are united to even ago after their own member, the three dictators and blood suckers mentioned above are going after the new China.

    Maybe this picture for you is not clear enough therefore let me remind you that the awesome power and technics were used to destroy a number of rebellion countries in Africa and in other parts of the world is the cause I use to say IMF, world bank and UN is the casinos of the mafias and blood suckers of the poor.

    It was and still easy for anyone in the big five list to call on the table of these three institutions (IMF, World Bank and UN) and ask the lights and dreams of any rebellion to be shut.

    Do you remember how many children, elderly and women died in Iraq due to the decision were taken in the casino? Do you know how many are going to die in the next few years in Iran?

    If the place is for all as it has been painted, would those who evaded other countries have to face what Saddam had to face after he envied Kuwaiti?

    As non member of the big five you MUST listen to the white sharks or else you will be digging your own grave and what happen to other the rebellions in the world should be enough lesson for you.
    In this, I believe that the African Government in South Africa is been force to watch and learn what price Mugabe have to pay for messing with a top official from the Big five.

    This morning I was refreshing and reading a book called “Democracy kills” and I would suggest you read it also, with been carful on what you should take and what you should not, and knowing that the author of the books is a predecessor of Andrews Harding, a journalist worked for BBC and travelled all over the world particularl Africa.

    In his book he gave people like you a monocular you should use. There is another book very good on this issue, and I am sure it will help you not talk on what you don’t know or not try to be another brick on the wall for the Africans, because in any of the two you will be disgracing only yourself.

    And the second book I would recommend you to read is “The Whitman’s burden” please get them and learn what whites like you are telling you on how your bothers in Europe run the lives of the Africans.

    Concern to the unverifiable numbers of dearth or killings you contributed to the eunuch-bouncer leaders in Africans, it could be right or could be wrong, but your fathers officially killed 62 millions not of chicken but human like you and me only during the WWII. Approximately 15 years ago they did it again (Bosnia-Serb) The hugeness of the killings made you named it world war, please think about it.

    To conclude; Europe or your brothers today are applying dictatorship on the non big five members, and human today is going through the worst kind of slavery, would be wise to consider some of the implications of globalizations. As whites South Africans droved the country to hell, white sharks are driving the entire world to hell.

    And since the current African government is preaching, working and wining on the goal of “better life for all” and “one country for all” I wish there will be a time Africans will rule the world and spread these policies and ideas on the world which is on dire need of justice, fairness and true equality.

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  • 11. At 11:46pm on 17 Jul 2010, justineet wrote:

    To My Somalies’ friends,

    Ogadeneia has always been part of Ethiopia and it will always remain so!! STOP your pipe dreams about Ogadenia. It’s useless and counterproductive!! Re-writing History will never get you anywhere positive. If U really want to get deep down into History, you will find infact Somalia itself was part of Ethiopia aka Abyssyania!! America was Indian land if you to go back. But I don't think we want to, do we?? Second, it ‘s irrelelavent that the populace of Ogadenia are Somalies ethnically. They are still Ethiopians. Ethiopia has too numerous ethnicities to list. Somalie just happens to be one of them. There are Oromos in Kenya and Ethiopia. But each have different nationalities as the Somalies of Somalia and Ethiopia. We have Italians extracts in America but they are American, not Italians. So STOP confusing nationality with ethnicity. They are two completely different things!!

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  • 12. At 06:39am on 18 Jul 2010, Anthony016 wrote:

    I think this concern about the media's role in possibly exacerbating xenophobia is a very valid one. There is certainly responsible coverage, and then also pure incitement. How much of the latter still exists today in our media Im not sure, political affinities change but the culture of change to good itself should always be promoted. There are certainly good and bad in every profession.

    I would however say that I don't completely agree that "we have got it just right", not all publications for example are equal in this but certainly I would say some do get it as right, for television where the risks in my opinion are possibly much greater I would say much more needs to be done to prevent the dangers inherent in South Africa to violent footage of xenophobia having adverse affects on its prevention and cessation.

    I think myself of course that there shouldn't be censorship of footage or image of these horrific events but and perhaps this is not entirely just the responsibility of the media here but there should be ongoing campaigns in the media by the media themselves and by the government using the media towards an attempt to harmonising different cultures and nationalities in South Africa. In the first instance by promoting these cultures/nationalities favourably in articles and the second by the government running campaign slots showing simply a culture of harmony.

    There obviously exists a culture in our population that will use any dramatic event to try and further their ambitions be it looting, violence etc. The media has to direct its attention to these with as much coverage plus government law enforcing agents doing the same of course with very public trials following. There is certainly the danger given this culture that the media inadevertly, camera crews for example in hot spots etc give these violent hooligans and Xenophobes an opening.

    How to avoid such an incidents escalating out of control I have no idea, an obvious suggestion might be that the media work much more closely with enforcement agencies on the ground with adequate alerting should they pick up news of any imminent problem occurring and visa versa.



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  • 13. At 2:21pm on 18 Jul 2010, sagat4 wrote:

    Mze-djimba i think you should give it a rest man. ALl your posts are long winded that i won't even bother to read them. Please learn to stick to the topic as well ok (leave colonization to one side)are you saying there is no xenophobia in SA? If you reply please keep it short and concise :)

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  • 14. At 2:51pm on 18 Jul 2010, Mze-djimba wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 15. At 4:24pm on 18 Jul 2010, Mze-djimba wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 16. At 5:23pm on 18 Jul 2010, ghelling wrote:

    Andrew, you have stated the problem very well. In 2008, the heavy coverage and often inflammatory language used by the media did cause an increased level of violence across the country. This time I've witnessed a greater show of restraint - and your posting proved to me that many in the media are doing their part to help keep this xenophobic criminal activity from spreading. THANK YOU!

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  • 17. At 07:56am on 19 Jul 2010, KaiinSA wrote:

    I think Mze-djimba is spitting his hateful poison as a way of trying to rid himself of the guilt he has of living in France and taking advantage of the Colonial way of life. He claims to be pro-African yet lives in the heart of Europe.

    Either make peace with the fact you have turned your back on Africa for the Colonial European way of life or move back to your African village and give everyone else a break from your Xenophobia please.

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  • 18. At 09:02am on 19 Jul 2010, Martyn abrahams wrote:

    @Mze-djimba

    If you going to focus on what has happened on the past by saying "the white man did this, the white man did that" there is going to be no moving forward in Africa. Africa's destiny is now in the hands of it's people, black, white, coloured and asian, which might come as a surprise to you.

    Xenophobia has nothing to do with the white man it, it has to do with dictators like Mugabe being given licence to murder, rape and deny his people the most basic of rights- human dignity by other African Governments, least of all the corrupt ANC.

    Until one leader can stand up, take responsibility and say "enough!" xenophobia will always be an issue when people do not have jobs and basic needs. In other words when people are hungry and have no work.

    Xenephobia in SA has everything to do with that- forget the colonists- they the only ones keeping the country's economic infrastructure above water by paying taxes.

    Enjoy Europe!

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  • 19. At 2:48pm on 19 Jul 2010, Mze-djimba wrote:

    @Kaiinsa: if to tell you the truth which most of the times I quote from a written done by whites like you, if telling you that is a hatful then what is rest from your claims to be truthful seeker & humanist?

    Evidently you already said that “I am feeling guilty for living in France” well, you could not say it in any better than that. Pillage of the past and current systems which are shrewdly set-up by the white-shark forced us to be here otherwise we don’t like to live in a dictatorship.

    But to correct your narrow understanding I am not living but staying, (i hop there is different on the two) as I said in one of my comments that I have been staying nearly everywhere in Africa and Europe. In Europe I have been in the UK, Swiss, Italy, France, Ireland and Istanbul.

    The reason of telling you this is to tell you that I know how you people think and behave toward the others, and the other reason is to give you mirror to look at yourself starting right from your forefathers up to now. And to let you know that if you lives in luxury today is because of the robbery and injustice your fathers did. And if the African is living in the opposite of your life that is because of the raw deals his father gout yesterday. as South African you should understanding this very well.

    I did not turn my back on Africa; I have lived in Africa for over 98% of my live. I have been in Africa as many times as I can, and I live African full time everywhere I am and i would like continue like this.

    I am NOT on any need of any form of European, Chinese or Arabic way of life, I have nothing to do with them, however, you must know that I respect everyone and expect to be respected by everyone.

    One thing I would like you to be careful when you are listing the signs of European ways of lives, don’t just list everything like putting sugar on tea as part of the European ways of live and everyone who drink tea then he must be imitating you.

    While I am on this page let me make it clear to you that I don’t think I am wrong to be here as my father’s sweats build this countries. Minerals from my continent build this countries, many of my grand fathers perished in wars on this continent not to colonized but trying to help the mobs from killing each other.

    So it’s my right to be here and I do have the unyielding believe that Africans should be allow freely to come and see where their minerals has been keep and the kind of people who are enjoying it, not only because Europeans are coming to Africa freely but because milking Africa is what built London and Paris. So to open the borders for the polish & roma and close for the Africans is racism, hatful, unfair, ignorant and inhuman.

    (Martyn abraham18): on my comment I talk about the past but also and gave so many examples of current racist and bulling systems which still benefiting some few and prevent many around the world, I guess that is why you should read the entire comments.

    We would like the lives of the Africans to be let in the hands of the Africans but in realty not in the funny and trek ways.

    There is a merger reforms which need everywhere, don’t take someone put him/her in a room and lock it up and then say you are free there, taking someone making him eunuch and ask him to be your bouncer to look after your wealth and then say he is the president. Most of the dark skin people leaders there we called them frontiers. Mugabe was all good the soon he was looking after the properties of Europe in Africa but the soon he told the Africans to take the African land he automatically become all kinds of names.

    Really reforms should happen in all of the aspect of life. BMW and Peugeot are the ones pricing their cars just because they are the producers so Africans should be let price their diamonds and gold and other minerals without any form of interfering. this never and probably will never happen.

    We knows that after Europeans destroyed themselves during the WWII, they later came up with IMF & world bank, and UN to empower themselves, they financed themselves and gave themselves whatever amount of nonexistent money for now 70 years, So Africans should be allowed to have their own SAME systems.

    In Europe both rich and poor are oblige by law to submit to the Government, the loyals & smarts citizens are wisely selected and systematically build to be the pillars or hearts of the country so Africa should be allow to do the same FOR OVER 70 YEARS.

    Nearly all of the current so-called African currencies are Europeans and part of the scams and we should cancel them. How can the African Senegalese really benefit from money called franc? Does the name tell you something?

    Xenophobia is in all over the world particularly in Europe AND if you travel you can realise this. However, as I said in one of my previous comments, apartheid systems and colonial policies made things worst in South Africa.

    In London and Paris, when the polish arrive he/she come to England which owns by the English or France owns by the French, but in South Africa both the African-South African and the African new comer they are the same in reality, the South African who could be found talking or fighting on the so-called xenophobia he/she have nothing. They both have to lives on the mercy of the Europeans and run for job.

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  • 20. At 10:26am on 20 Jul 2010, Artur Freitas wrote:

    The South African government together with world organizations is doing a great job to create a tolerant and humanitarian atmosphere. Xenophobia will be resolved when countries in Africa will offer better living conditions to their people. People with the “guts” to move to an unknown country are usually entrepreneurs, risk takers and survivors who become serious economic competitors. We can’t blame South Africans for perceiving their potential income being taken away by foreigners but we can’t condone the beating and killing at all. A culture that makes life “cheap” is unacceptable even when said by white reporters.

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  • 21. At 10:52am on 20 Jul 2010, Martyn abrahams wrote:

    I do read the entire comments- once again, let me re-iterate we are talking about AFRICA not Europe or the world. If you talking internationally then the few being benefitted and the rest being dis-enfranchised is called "Globalization" not "Africanization".

    You seem to read what suits you and to justify and negate any form of reason with regards to Mugabe, for instance: He is NOT the legal president of Zimbabwe therefore he is not democratically elected and whether or not some people like him he has created a "failed state" in that country which has lead to people leaving Zimbabwe and heading for South Africa where they are persecuted and murdered hence the XENOPHOBIA.

    How in God's name can you even say that he was giving the land back to the Africans- he was giving the land to all his cronies and his own tribe- no other black tribe has benefitted from his "land repatriation program"? Africans are starving and being murdered because of him.

    The reason the West came up with the IMF and World Bank was to create a system under John Maynard Keynes whereby the world's economies would not collapse after WWII. Whilst the IMF and World Bank are not my favourite institutions the United States took over from Britain as the hegemon of the world. In other words they took over as the super power to maintain a balance in world affairs. Hence the Dollar being used as an international currency- even by China.

    As far as the UN goes, if it had not been for that institution you might still have found most African countries still under colonialism. The United States contributes the most financially to the UN whilst smaller African countries contribute less. Yet the African countries usually have the most say in the UN due to their collective mentality and end up hijacking the general assembly. So you cannot even say that the African nations do not have a voice.

    Colonial and apartheid arguably did not help Africans- however I do not see the Africans complaining when they have societes that have cars, fridges and jobs. If you took the time to read my comment you would see that things are worse now then when apartheid was around.
    You can argue that apartheid caused all these problems but I don't see any reason so far to say that what Africans are doing to each other does not justify it either.

    We discussing South Africa's xenophobia problems and whilst Europe has it's problems I do not see the Africans trying to work out their differences but continuously blaming their plight on the white man.

    What does Africa do? Appoint idiots like Zuma and Mugabe to lead them- both criminals in their own rights.
    And what Africans think is them snubbing their finger at the West is actually them cutting off their noses to spite their faces.

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  • 22. At 11:02am on 20 Jul 2010, KaiinSA wrote:

    Very well said Martyn, a perfectly well written and executed argument.

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  • 23. At 12:07pm on 20 Jul 2010, sagat4 wrote:

    An interesting link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-10696292 one thing that links all xenophobic attacks worldwide is jobs and homes

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  • 24. At 1:12pm on 20 Jul 2010, RogerII wrote:

    @ Martyn Abrahams: I realise that Mze-Djimba may have some long-winded responses and odd viewpoints, but you seem to have this badly misguided notion that us whiteys are somehow only a force for good in Africa. Also your "facts" are pretty much out of a fairy tale:
    1) Murders in SA have dropped 40% since 1994 and have certainly not remained constant. Do some homework and look up the crime stats on the SAPS website - or are you going to suggest that it's an ANC conspiracy to fudge the numbers? The same applies to that hyperbole for the numbers killed a year in SA.
    2) You suggest that white South Africans are all that's propping up SA financially. Here's a newsflash for you - the cumulative wealth of blacks in SA exceded that of whites several years ago. Therefore it's obvious that they pay more taxes & VAT than us whites!
    3) While the numbers of people killed during apartheid was (relatively) small, why don't you try and look at the big picture? Consider the effects of depriving generations of blacks of a decent education and healthcare during apartheid. Now tell me, has the penny finally dropped for you as to why SA has some of the problems it's facing today?

    And let me spare you some typing in your no-doubt vitriolic response to this - I'm not an ANC acolyte, but what really gives me the zig is fellow white South Africans who spend their lives kowtowing to any crud (culture or news) that gets pumped out of the UK/USA and cannot even put themselves in the shoes of their fellow black South Africans.


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  • 25. At 2:11pm on 20 Jul 2010, Wicked_Witch_of_the_West_Coast wrote:

    [8. At 7:57pm on 16 Jul 2010, Mze-djimba wrote:

    I am one of those who use laugh if I read the name Afrikaner, is for some Europeans who didn’t like to be or not be Africans therefore they put themselves in the middle and called themselves this boerawish name.]

    Afrikaner just means African, in the language of the Dutch settlers. And everyone of them that I've ever met has been proud to be African.

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  • 26. At 2:40pm on 20 Jul 2010, Martyn abrahams wrote:

    @RogerII
    I AM going to type in my no-doubt vitriolic response.

    Thank you for your comments Roger.
    I can assure you the foreign media is more optimistic and transparent than the SA media with it's occasional BS.
    I do not "kowtow" to the common notion of what is pumped into the censored media and common "sheepish" belief system in South Africa unlike yourself.
    I would like to point out the following to you:

    1. The SAPS website stats has been placed in doubt by the South African Institute of security studies (for example)- A well respected institution world wide.
    Since the SAPS were reluctant to release acts of murder and rape (eg.Australians) before and during the World Cup I do believe that this places the credibility of the SAPS in doubt.

    2.You claim the cumulative wealth of blacks exceded that of whites arguably (7?) years ago. The majority of blacks utilise the cash system of payment without paying tax- not unlike Egypt where the economy is quite similar and in freefall.
    If blacks were doing so well please explain to me why the ANC is so willing to perpetuate the BEE and AA policies they hold so dear and don't tell me it is because of lack of opportunity.

    3.Healthcare? For example Baragwanath was one of the most advanced black hospitals in the southern hemisphere during apartheid with some facilities that even white hospitals lacked, Roger. Where are all the mattresses now- blame it on apartheid maybe?

    Education? When it came to education lets not forget the pictures of blacks burning down their schools- even today 16 years on the education system is tailored to help them pass. When they inherited this country it was an infrastructure that worked- corruption. greed, nepotism and cronyism all have their part to play in the way the country is running.

    If it comes to putting my feet in the shoes of fellow Africans let me say that whilst I lived in South Africa we sponsored our AIDS infected maid from Zimbabwe and put her child through school. And that's just for starters.


    I am South African and proud to be but let me finally say that it is your mentality and other "Africans" with all due respect that looks to the past instead of trying to address the solutions of the present and future.

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  • 27. At 2:57pm on 20 Jul 2010, Martyn abrahams wrote:

    For those of you willing to have an open mind.

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/10320323/Xenophobia-in-South-Africa-The-Cause-Coverage-and-Controversy

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  • 28. At 4:26pm on 20 Jul 2010, RogerII wrote:

    @ Martyn:
    In future before you trot out hackneyed phrases like the SA media being "censored" may I suggest you consult the Press Freedom Index and then retract that inaccurate mark. And then dig further to discover why so many Western European country's like France, Spain et al. rank lower than SA.
    I never stated the SA media is better than overseas media - frankly they're both pretty dismal. My problem is your slavish unquestioning devotion to any overseas media reporting or have you forgotten the reports about dangerous baboons/snakes, knife wielding mobs, unfinished stadia (carried by the BBC nogal).
    Here's my response to your points (I note you didn't bother address most of my points)
    1) I love it when people rattle off impressive sounding names without knowing what they're talking about. If you'd actually bother reading ISS's website you'll see that the only crime data they present is, suprise, the SAPS' figures. And guess what, if you bothered reading (for instance the leader to the 2007/2008 data) the ISS state "Often, the police are accused of manipulating the crime figures. It should, however, be stated that no evidence has ever been brought forward in this regard. "
    2) You're wrong again. Personal income tax contributes about 30% to SA's revenue. VAT and companies contribute more than 50% of SA's revenue. When you buy a can of coke, you pay VAT irrespective of your skin colour. Please show us your facts that black people pay less tax than whites.
    Do you genuinely think that a couple of years of BEE/AA will magically dispel 100+ years of crap education etc. I trust you are aware that there are AA policies still in place in the USA who notionally disposed of racial discrimination in the 60s?
    3) "Baragwanath was one of the most advanced black hospitals in the southern hemisphere during apartheid". Read this point of yours again, better still say it to a black South African and wait for their response.
    Do you actually believe that apartheid-era drivel? Baragwanath was/is the "biggest" black hospital, but please don't mistake biggest for "most advanced". Are you honestly trying to tell me that there was no shortages of blankets or long queues for service during apartheid?

    So far the only point we can agree on is that burning down schools is a disgrace and a shame.
    Congratulations on sponsoring your Zim maid's education etc., I'm sure it was an enormous chunk of your disposable income. Mind you, you're original, I was expecting you to say that some of your best friends are black.

    Sadly it is you who is stuck in the past, you need to modify your beliefs that anything originating out of Europe is superior to SA.

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  • 29. At 4:59pm on 20 Jul 2010, Martyn abrahams wrote:

    Whatever you believe, you right. Well I can see you have all your facts lined up in a row and there is no point arguing or wasting my time with you. Conveniently suited to your own opinion of course and Google's.

    You keep telling yourself all this trivia and maybe if you click your heels three times Dorothy, you will get your wishes to come true.

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  • 30. At 6:59pm on 20 Jul 2010, Mze-djimba wrote:

    Thank you so much RogerII in both your comments. And you (martyn Abraham) here is your weakness, when you been confront with truth you give up and run.

    But anyway i have question on your claim concern to the Baragwanath hospital, have ever you visited the hospital during apartheid time? Did you saw what you said or you heard it or just you tried to make some story here which will sound good?

    What was the logic for apartheid government building such hospital you describe in the black area which is well known what kind of service they were getting from the governments?

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  • 31. At 1:29pm on 21 Jul 2010, Martyn abrahams wrote:

    @Mje-djimba/RogerII
    Running? Some of us have jobs and have deadlines to meet, sorry to disappoint you Djimba/Roger.

    ROGER Said: In future before you trot out hackneyed phrases like the SA media being "censored" may I suggest you consult the Press Freedom Index and then retract that inaccurate mark. And then dig further to discover why so many Western European country's like France, Spain et al. rank lower than SA.

    ANSWERr: South Africa has a lower rating of press freedom than any of the above countries with Spain scoring 11/100, France scoring 10.67/100 et al....South Africa scores 8.5 a much lower score. (Visionofhumanity.org)


    ROGER said:I never stated the SA media is better than overseas media - frankly they're both pretty dismal.

    Answer in your own words: "really gives me the zig is fellow white South Africans who spend their lives kowtowing to any crud (culture or news) that gets pumped out of the UK/USA "

    ROGER said: My problem is your slavish unquestioning devotion to any overseas media reporting or have you forgotten the reports about dangerous baboons/snakes, knife wielding mobs, unfinished stadia (carried by the BBC nogal).
    ANSWERr: Based on what experience other than your own prejudice and incomplete knowledge of the foreign media?

    ROGER said: Here's my response to your points (I note you didn't bother address most of my points)
    ANSWER: Likewise


    ROGER: 1) I love it when people rattle off impressive sounding names without knowing what they're talking about. If you'd actually bother reading ISS's website you'll see that the only crime data they present is, suprise, the SAPS' figures. And guess what, if you bothered reading (for instance the leader to the 2007/2008 data) the ISS state "Often, the police are accused of manipulating the crime figures. It should, however, be stated that no evidence has ever been brought forward in this regard. "
    Try read the newspapers more often to stay ahead of current events. Any case it was YOUR South African media through the ISS that called into question the validity of the SAPS report LAST YEAR. And by the way I never said that the media in SA was corrupt- this is your own assumption.

    ROGER: 2) You're wrong again. Personal income tax contributes about 30% to SA's revenue. VAT and companies contribute more than 50% of SA's revenue. When you buy a can of coke, you pay VAT irrespective of your skin colour. Please show us your facts that black people pay less tax than whites.

    ANSWER: Whose talking about a can of coke?
    1.Show me your facts to the contrary, according to the Gini co-efficient South Africa- which is a measure of inequality based on disposable income in SA was 0.72.
    And according to the IES (Income & Expenditure Survey) biases arose on the income side whenever respondents under-reported their earnings whether through forgetfulness or out of a misplaced concern that their reported data could fall into the hands of the taxation authority,"
    2. RATES & TAXES: According to Tom Lodge in his book, Politics in SA, from Mandela to Mbeki, ratepayers in Sandton for example are used to finance services and infrastructure in Alexandria- why do you think the muncipalities are broke (corruption aside)?

    ROGER said: Do you genuinely think that a couple of years of BEE/AA will magically dispel 100+ years of crap education etc. I trust you are aware that there are AA policies still in place in the USA who notionally disposed of racial discrimination in the 60s?
    ANSWER: I am sure some little African at the age of 15 is definitely feeling the pain of being exposed to the apartheid education system 16 years after it ended-
    America's AA policies are in place (if you are aware) to protect the disadvantaged minorities in the USA- in this case the blacks

    ROGER said: 3) "Baragwanath was one of the most advanced black hospitals in the southern hemisphere during apartheid". Read this point of yours again, better still say it to a black South African and wait for their response.
    Do you actually believe that apartheid-era drivel? Baragwanath was/is the "biggest" black hospital, but please don't mistake biggest for "most advanced". Are you honestly trying to tell me that there was no shortages of blankets or long queues for service during apartheid?

    ANSWER: This one I got partly wrong as I wrote it off the top of my head- Baragwanath is the largest Black hospital in the S hemisphere. The second part of my answer should have been that they had the most advanced radiology equipment and department in the 90's.
    Where you from? Blankets being stolen and queues were endemic to Bara, however who you think footed the bill at the time? (courtesy of Dr. K. Hong-John Hopkins Hosp.)


    ROGER said: So far the only point we can agree on is that burning down schools is a disgrace and a shame.
    Congratulations on sponsoring your Zim maid's education etc., I'm sure it was an enormous chunk of your disposable income. Mind you, you're original, I was expecting you to say that some of your best friends are black.
    ANSWER: Of course I am original and not a hypocryte. Maybe it is you putting your shoes on the backs of Africans and not in their shoes.


    ROGER said: Sadly it is you who is stuck in the past, you need to modify your beliefs that anything originating out of Europe is superior to SA.
    ANSWER: Just to help you deal with your damaged ego and your abhorrent use of tenses (Def: Past-no longer current; gone by; over:)

    As far as Europe being superior to SA, I never said it was.

    @Mze-djimba
    Please answer your own questions and stop hiding behind someone else's misplaced arguments.
    Gotta go work now- have fun

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  • 32. At 5:13pm on 24 Jul 2010, Mze-djimba wrote:

    @martyn abraham21: If we are talking about economy for one house, one supermarket one area, one city one country or one continent I think we have to always talk with a wide sight. Yes Martyny Abraham I know that we are talking about Africanization, and there is many layers to talk about and also I think we need to be very fair, honest and careful.

    Africa is continent much, much big with over 1 billion people and enormous amount of natural wealth and unimaginable sufferings, the Africans who lives on the land works very, very hard but sadly by somehow they been technically denied the enjoyment of their hard work for hundreds of years.

    Most of the African land is a tropical land and everything can be grown very good and fast. But sadly they have been technically forced to buy everything from outside for the last hundreds or so. Very few countries or maybe only South Africa manufacture guns in Africa but to buy gun in many places in Africa is cheap and easy than to buy bread. I think in short I can say Africa is curse for the Africans but bless for the west.

    If you look nicely, from Algeria to South Africa different whites with different languages went into these African lands in different times but on the entire continent the results are the same.

    The problems facing the man in Algerian is the same to the man in Johannesburg, the problems of the man in Ghana is the same to the man in Madagascar, so it should be a time Africans to sit-down and think what is really going on. And what can be done.

    All of the Europeans who are responsible of the sinking of the African continent and enjoying the sweat of the Africans are the once who always comes in different colours and shapes with many funny and very convincing advices and sometime if they face resistant they use to threaten by forces on various grounds, they are NOT the ones to be trusted.

    My view if we still on their set-up traps we will forever be their laugh, we need to move total out of them and tell them how far they should be from us and keep their sex-up advices on themselves.

    If you look from 1945 up to now, IMF, World Bank and UN build their western nations from zero to hero even though now signs are in all over the place that the economic bubbly is going down.

    So my proposition even though I am not anything and for sure is not a view I should expect good eye from martyn Abraham and his alike, I would like to see a brand new economic structural on the African continent, right from the top to the bottom.

    We should have no any form of link or communication with the west on the economic basis we should ignore all so-called rules from those western tools of colonisation and slavery named UN, IMF and World Bank.

    Africa have more than enough highly expensive natural resource so we should use that as guarantee and deposit, we create our own banks without any link or interfering from the west, we value our own currency/s on the new system which should work like a new world order.

    Communism, capitalism and all other known and used isms are not from us therefore they can’t be for our benefit. We need a brand new entire system.

    We have to build Government which will be really responsible capable and mindble. Current governments can’t be hold fully responsible as they been made incapable and systematically controlled by outsiders for the benefit of the west.

    We don’t have to copy from the Russians, Americans or Europeans; we need a new system which will be really by the people and for the people, it’s a super democracy. I know that this would look like a joke and western blood sucker would not let system like this come to place but. I know what happen to the currencies of countries like Madagascar and Zimbabwe after they tried to resist instructions from London, Paris and Washington.

    But, In our new world order system we should issue our own money and entire Government which will be stop by none from outside, we should monitor the system by a structure like a pyramid, we should take instruction from none but really Africans who knows and loves Africa for the Africans that all.

    We don’t hat any one or nation but we hat and fight with any means from anyone who would like to tell us forget about forcing us on what to do and not do.

    For the Europeans who are in Africa we don’t ask them or the Africans who are the victims of the virus and now become more whites than the whites we don’t tell them to departure but we would ask anyone who lives with us to be with us and we as majority and natives of the lands we will be the drivers.

    On the entire continent we need some kind of BEE even though many feels like it’s a missile strike on their ears if they hear the name, and I am sure those guys who mulled the BEE in South Africa are smart enough to be on board of the teams which would have to work on the entire continent for a broader system. I am sure we have more than enough educated and loyal people who will be happy to save the human race which today someone are dying on obesity and the others are dying on starvation and malnourish.

    In South Africa one of the obstacles the BEE system does not work properly and fast enough is because the Government have to wait for money owned by whites or proudly Europeans racist who got that wealth in the apartheid time and those wealthy people don’t care about non Europeans and they will do whatever they can to disrupt, vandalize or sabotage any initiative aims to really alleviate the lives of the Africans.

    I know that there were many scams imposed on the Africans but they never been named the proper name, these western made scams had been presented with undercover names.

    Fancy names such Poverty alleviation, African assistant, adjustment loans, big push, economic adjustment, African package, millennium goal etc,etc (right now there is big headline here on BBC on the front page “former UK PM calls for AFRICAN CENTURY” all new scams comes from the west particularly IMF and world bank, and guys like Andrew Harding always are there to allude the world and weight the impact of these policies in the targeted countries.

    One side is to present the cocaine for the benefit of the empires, also to pretend to be the mouthpiece on behalf the victim and lastly to make sure that all things went smoothly.

    All plans from the west are not going to work because they never meant to work by the designers, the intention is not help but HELL the Africans, destroy every capability to the core and drive the emotions and psycho of the Africans. In fact why you should say you are going to help someone who could help himself & you If he been made to work?
    I don’t like to read or hear the word “help Africa or Africans” not just because doesn’t work but because is a psychologically attack on the Africans. You should just give them their full right and what they work for that all, and they will never deserve your help.

    This is about the Africanization you asked, but if you want about South Africa, experts already said so far so good, so let’s live things as they are, yes is slow and I know the price we are paying, I know the unemployment level on both youth and elder, I know the many problems the normal person on the street have to face but what can be done with whites racists owns everything and don’t want collaborate with Africans?

    The Government is very limited as they are in power for only 16 years and the wealth of South Africa is privately owned by the few whites.

    The country have the potentially to employ everyone and to even give life to the world but the few whites who own everything will collaborate only if systems like apartheid return. They don’t care about something called good life for all they only knows good life for the super race and salvation for the low race.

    So sorry there is so much can talked about but there is no more can be done specially IF guys like Andrew Harding don’t talk to the right people and tell them the right things.

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  • 33. At 5:59pm on 24 Jul 2010, Mze-djimba wrote:

    In the last 30 years this African countries Niger,Zambia,Madagascar,Togo,Avricost,Malawi,Mali,Mauritania,Senegal,Kenya,Ghana, Uganda, DRC Congo, Comoros islands etc, etc all are been brought down to their knees by the IMF and world bank.

    The Europeans keep designing new models, choosing new colours and sizes of cloths for these African countries to wear but all times, all designs do the same. Making the country hooked-up, ungovernable, full indebt by western institutions, insecurity and prey for anyone they would expect to be saviour or what you can say to be ready for the next scam which surely will come from the same guru.

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