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How should we tackle extremism in the young?

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The One Show Team | 17:32 UK time, Monday, 18 January 2010

Shiraz Maher gave us his personal view on what gets young British Muslims into - and out of - extremism. Watch his film below.

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In the film, Shiraz met Haras Rafiq, Director of a Muslim youth project. Haras told him that "The way [the extremists] recruit is to create a lens or a prism through which youngsters who have a personal problem, that they may have created in the first place, will find the answers."

The government aims to stop young people becoming terrorists with its "Prevent" strategy.


How should we tackle extremism in the young? Share your stories and experiences.

Comments

  • 1. At 7:14pm on 18 Jan 2010, Kathryn wrote:

    I think that in schools the Koran should be talked about in Religious Studies and PSHE just like the Bible is. This way people from all walks of life could understand to a degree how the Koran affects young Muslims.

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  • 2. At 7:14pm on 18 Jan 2010, vince wrote:

    i would be amazed if its even possible to comment on a bbc website on this subject without it failing there p.c rule book! if it is possible then yet again even in this carefully choosen short film it eems that as usuel even so called ,,moderate,, muslims WILL NOT condemn terrorists and there actions

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  • 3. At 7:16pm on 18 Jan 2010, Alexandra wrote:

    I would very much like the presenters of the One Show to actually annouce on air that unfortunately and tragically some Jews WERE killed in 9-11 - whilst I appreciate that the segment was critical of extremist Muslim views - you didnt actually say that the information was incorrect.

    I feel desperately sorry for the average Muslim - but the problem is that they do not speak out and condemn the extremists.

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  • 4. At 7:19pm on 18 Jan 2010, coalwoman wrote:

    One of the best things I've seen on this topic. Hats off to Shiraz Mayer for his honesty, and his report. I am a white female teacher with many Muslim pupils, and this helped enormously.

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  • 5. At 7:21pm on 18 Jan 2010, Jason wrote:

    All are welcome in our country, Far more welcome than in any given Muslim country. This is a bite the hand that feeds scenario and a hard line should be taken.

    We would be expected to observe and respect the ways of another land even should it be contrary to our ways. We should expect the same from others.

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  • 6. At 7:22pm on 18 Jan 2010, TheBritishWatcher wrote:

    Well a good start would be to offer more funding to groups we are sure are moderate. In the news the other day there was a story about muslim children being hit in religious classes where the ban on corporal punishment doesnt apply, that sort of thing has to be dealt with.

    The media and government could also do alot more to defend British foreign policy explaining how it has helped muslims in the past and is not something anti islam. British and American troops are fighting along side muslims in Afghanistan. Its the muslim extremists killing other muslims. As highlighted by he story on the jews being responsible for 9/11, we can not just presume people will see commonsense, such myths must be challenged and proved wrong.

    One thing is for sure this current labour government can not sort out the problem, a change of government is needed and hopefully in a few months we will have a conservative one which will introduce atleast some policies to make progress on these matters.

    Shiraz Mayer should get into contact with Baroness Warsi (Shadow Minister for community cohesion) to help give some ideas on what should be done when the conservatives win.

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  • 7. At 7:22pm on 18 Jan 2010, aimee wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 8. At 7:22pm on 18 Jan 2010, Bally Johal wrote:

    I believe Shiraz is absolutely right moderate British Muslims who are both British and Muslim need to stand up and ensure they are countering the bad violent message portrayed by these individuals and they should demounce their actions in the name of their religion. They are causing unbelievanle stress on relations in the asian community at large and we are all affected by this - every asian muslim or none muslim only the moderate muslims by actively quashing and combating these extremist views on the streets, mosques and at all public platforms. Asking for sharia law in a historically christian country is ridiculous and unacceptable, I am Sikh and love this country and if I didn't and wanted to live like an akali sikh I could go back to the punjab. You could not ask for western and christian values in muslim countries you would be killed so what gives you the right to ask for it here. Quite simply if you don't like the law of this land then go live in a muslim country. Fact is you don't want to as you prefer it here, as if I preferred it back in my ancestoral lands then I could quite easily go back. So if thats what you want GO BACK!!

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  • 9. At 7:23pm on 18 Jan 2010, connor wrote:

    this really annoyed myself because of the two guys in the snooker club. One of them said that Muslims get the finger pointed at them when there has been a terrorist attack/bomb attack. Why do they seem so surprised, I can't believe he WOULDN'T think it wasn't a Muslim or someone of that ethnicity. And then to blame the British and Americans for this act astounds me!

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  • 10. At 7:24pm on 18 Jan 2010, Laurence Marcantonio wrote:

    I was frankly delighted to hear total sense being spoken tonight by Shiraz -it is about time this sort of new thinking is infiltrated into the young Muslim population --my grandfather came here from Italy in 1889 and INTEGRATED his family completely even thro' the stresses and strains of 2 world wars .--His philosophy was quite simple -he said "when in Rome do what the Romans do - you are here to start a new life not dwell on the mistakes of the past"

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  • 11. At 7:24pm on 18 Jan 2010, Osiris wrote:

    I dont mean any offence but! The islamic people are tared and pasted with the same brush just as christians were in and on your lands. I feel that 90% or more of terrorists come from islamic/muslim back grounds and should be taken as a threat to the UK and its interests. Sorry but the UK and the world is what you make it. It is now hostile towards that culture. Deal with it! Or get used to it!

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  • 12. At 7:24pm on 18 Jan 2010, xlnc wrote:

    shiraz mayer said in his documentary that there is many contradiction in QURAN, i would like to ask him and the team where he got all that information to explain ONE contradiction from QURAN, I can explain hundreds of contradiction from bible. there is nowhere quoted in QURAN about killing innocent people, and whatever UK TROOPS , EUROPEAN TROOPS, AMERICAN TROOPS doing in Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine etc, IS THAT JUST FAIR??!! you need to learn Islam then to put comments about it, jihad does not means to go and kill, its meaning is STRUGGLE, just open your minds and eyes and think why is all that happening??!! where were all these attacks before the invasion of troops in Afghanistan, Iraq, Plastine etc

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  • 13. At 7:26pm on 18 Jan 2010, airlineguy wrote:

    Hi everyone while there is terror we all have to stick together,
    Id like to appeal to everyone best nature Christian, Muslim, Jewish comumity... all faiths. lets have a day of celibration where people of all faith stand in westminster and arround the country in all major cities and peacefully say to terrorists no matter our faith we are human beings... this is about our familys and our children lets link arms and get to know about each other we are all equil....

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  • 14. At 7:26pm on 18 Jan 2010, Andy wrote:

    Adrian needs to do his homework before dismissing all conspiracy theories. His comments were naive and uninformed! He's talking on a subject he knows nothing about. Stick to West Brom. I'm sure you know a lot about them!

    Regarding the Jewish conspiracy, look at the facts, that are in the public domain. Facts!!! THREE towers were demolished on 11th September 2001 and only TWO were hit by aeroplanes.......explain that one.

    WTC 7 (47 stories, Saloman Building) came down in 6.5 seconds and was not ever hit by a plane. There was a small fire on the 8th floor, HARD FACT. WTC 3 & 4 were between ''the twin towers'' and WTC 7. EXPLAIN THAT ONE SMART AR3E.

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  • 15. At 7:26pm on 18 Jan 2010, Jeannie wrote:

    I don't think there is an answer to stop extremism in the young.We as a country are far too soft with any sort of misbehaviour.Why is it we have lot's of religions in this country, but we only seem to get problems with the muslim community.What is it about muslim's that makesthem think that other people should adhere to them, well the only way to treet it is to get tough.

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  • 16. At 7:26pm on 18 Jan 2010, Anna Booth wrote:

    Hi, My name's Anna Booth and I'm head of drama and dance at Rhyddings business & Enterprise school in Lancashire. I have currently been working on the governments "Prevent project" with a group of 20 Students.
    We have worked closely with the local community, police and curious minds to produce a film to try to combat young people joining terror organisations or becoming embroiled in terror cells and also to try to alter the perception of extremism in our current society.
    We are a 25% Asain heritage school and feel that this subject needs addressing.
    The prevent project has opened up disscussions that people might have previously felt uncomfortable to have.
    The film we have made is now packaged and used as a tool avaiable to all secondary schools in England for this purpose. I would love to bring my students on to the show is talk about these issues.
    Anna Booth

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  • 17. At 7:27pm on 18 Jan 2010, David wrote:

    Why not promote Christianity a religion of peace and love and its the religion of Great Britain. You never see suicide bombers that are followers of Christ.

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  • 18. At 7:27pm on 18 Jan 2010, newbluesfan wrote:

    It is so worrying that young people are being motivated to kill by 'Myths' as Shiraz explained on TOS.

    I suppose it is even more worrying that Shiraz believes that the only way forward is for Imams etc to change the wording(or emphasis?) of the Koran.

    While I totally agree that this should happen as soon as possible I am sure that it will NEVER happen - even if the Imams etc were to support this in principal as a sensible way forward, they would never have the backing of the average Muslim (to change their 'Holy/Religious Document'

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  • 19. At 7:28pm on 18 Jan 2010, BOBO wrote:

    watching the show and having a muslim say that they are all classed the same and they wish to live in our country peacefully, then pherhaps could he explain why in our town where they go to pray the sign above the doors reads NO BRITISH! also the phrase leopard and spots come to mind.

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  • 20. At 7:29pm on 18 Jan 2010, saraesa wrote:

    the quran is not contradictory
    dermot does not have any authority on the islam factor
    hes x factor territory...that says it all...(my son adds "lol")

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  • 21. At 7:29pm on 18 Jan 2010, jim41534 wrote:

    As soon as violence enters the equation in the name of religion, in a 21st century society, then things will break down. More and more damage is being done to the perception of Muslim's in the U.K. and around the world because of the association with violence and Islam. It is up to Muslims themselves to expel individuals and organisations that promote extremism through Islam. Muslims need to speak out, identify and condemn terrorist organisations more effectively. Otherwise the rest of society, unfortunately, will continue to associate Muslims and Islam with violence and terrorism.

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  • 22. At 7:30pm on 18 Jan 2010, Sean Toher wrote:

    I hope this brave young man doesn't suffer abuse at the hands of extremists, both Islamic and otherwise, though I fear he may. Muslims feel, rightly or wrongly, that the west (i.e. us) does not represent their cause fairly. Most especially in comparison to the actions of the state of Israel. Only when we get over this problem and we can look down the road to living peacefully with our fellow muslim humans.

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  • 23. At 7:31pm on 18 Jan 2010, 10203 wrote:

    after watching the short film i wonder is it us who needs to change our teaching or do the muslims need to take a look at theirs. I am not racist but it does seem easier for people from other culters to tell us to change our way of life to let them live theirs the way they want. Should they feel that strongly about the west why not try the east.

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  • 24. At 7:33pm on 18 Jan 2010, Kerryx1x wrote:

    Hats off to Shairaz for doing this documentary, it must have taken some guts to come out and say what he did, but is it just me, or did the two guys in the snooker hall actually agree with the 9/11 terror attack? I feel very strongly that people should be able to live and believe in what they want, but as is said in a previous post, why bite the hand that feeds you?
    I hope this hasn't offended anyone but I just fell the report was very close to the line. I know this is my personal opinion but I dont believe in terrorism.

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  • 25. At 7:33pm on 18 Jan 2010, Phil wrote:

    As a regular One Show viewer, I would urge you to try not to use reporters/presenters who have experiences of being an extremist in the future. Giving them opportunity to share their experiences does not prevent, but promotes their religious views.

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  • 26. At 7:33pm on 18 Jan 2010, pete wrote:

    In my youth many Scots/Irish Catholics were tarred with the brush of terrorism for supporting civil rights in Northern Ireland and the continual disproportianate use of force in that mini stae led to 3500+ deaths. Our government introduced a law that 3 or more people discussing the issue could be considerd a conspiracy. As an apostate atheist I have found most Muslims I have met to be decent human beings and highly couteous. I share in their despair at a world which refuses to address the outrageous situation in Palestine. If you want people to behave responsibly then you must have responsible law.

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  • 27. At 7:37pm on 18 Jan 2010, lee smith wrote:

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  • 28. At 7:40pm on 18 Jan 2010, Alan Kelly wrote:

    Shiaz mentioned 9/11, Glagow airport bombing, then 7/7 made him change.........Glagow airport bombing was 2 years after 7/7 London bombings, so when did he get to know the Glasgow bombers that he was so ashamed of knowing? Surely if he had changed then he might have spotted something about their attitude?

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  • 29. At 7:41pm on 18 Jan 2010, shakir wrote:

    well there are one things that in the one show didnt talk about which why as as Muslims we feel America and our country did in Iraq how many people they killed that what that what must extremism have as a fact. I know our troops in Iraq dont want to be in there and the iraqy the same

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  • 30. At 7:43pm on 18 Jan 2010, Veryannoyed wrote:

    I feel compelled to write about the 2 muslim youths featured, and the disgusting comment that no Jews were killed in the 9/11 attacks. I know for a fact that this is not the case. It is incredibly sad to know that there are such narrow minded individuals in our midst that are hell-bent on the destuction of the way normal people go about their daily lives.

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  • 31. At 7:43pm on 18 Jan 2010, lee smith wrote:

    I not sure if others feel the same, but in my opinion do not feel this is a topic for the one show to get into.

    As it really needs to be an adult show with adult discussion to show both sides of properly.

    If we are able to send our loved ones to war to which some have died, then we should beable to have a real debate show on tv where viewers have a real voice.

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  • 32. At 7:45pm on 18 Jan 2010, nicholas wrote:

    are british muslims happy to live in a cristian country, or would they be happier if brition was a muslim country.

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  • 33. At 7:45pm on 18 Jan 2010, mez wrote:

    I dont know but maybe youngsters take this route as they may feel discriminated against just for being muslim and asian, even though they have a right as much as anyone one else to be in this country as they are born here. This feeling may trigger when we have partys such as the BNP swanning around, I believe no one has the right to take life apart from god, also when you see things happening in gaza and palastine it's saddens me, and maybe some feel this is a way they are making a stand.


    I also feel the media also plays a role in this as when a muslim man commits a crime he is seen as a 'muslim' doing terrible things but if its other people from other religions its not there religion that gets mentioned and i feel its out of order.



    I think its all the negativity that youngsters get from the media, lack of knowledge of what actually the quran states, as causing harm to someone else is forbidden etc. and sometimes non muslim's comments and behaviours, I am a british muslim and my sister and mum went to pick my cousin up from the train station, but because my mum had a scarf on she got called a 'paki' wearing a scarf is not a cultural statement but a religious one, my familys not even from a pakistani background, i think aswell as the muslims the non muslims need to build tolerance with each others individualities and diffrences and aswell as doing this through mosque's it should also be done through schools. I think schools still do not do enough to build a tolerence between communities.

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  • 34. At 7:48pm on 18 Jan 2010, Star22 wrote:

    I would just like to mention that in this country and in our schools we are quite open minded. We have many different types of people. Have you noticed though there are now synagogs for the Jews, mosques for the muslims. I wonder if i was a druid whether anyone would build me a sacraficial alter. Pagans and druids were here for years before even the Christian religion yet they don't even rate a mention.

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  • 35. At 7:50pm on 18 Jan 2010, Osiris wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 36. At 7:52pm on 18 Jan 2010, MarkCE wrote:

    In my opinion, the so-called 'reformed' Muslim 'former' extremist gave a distinctly unconvincing explanation of himself to Adrian's clever, direct questioning. If he was involved, in the past, with the kind of appalling, radical organisations that he states, then I am surprised that he isn't of interest to MI5, as he may possibly have knowledge that could assist our superb secret service, in their efforts to protect the many in this country. I trust this post will not fall foul of the usual BBC overly-correct political correctness?

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  • 37. At 7:56pm on 18 Jan 2010, David wrote:

    I cannot understand why 2.4 million muslims have so much clout in this nation of over 60 million.
    According to something I have just read this part of our nation is growing at ten times faster than the rest of our society.
    How much will they influence the United Kingdom when the official figure reaches 5 million and beyond.

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  • 38. At 8:00pm on 18 Jan 2010, Fazz wrote:

    I am a Muslim and I don't believe in terrorism (I condemn all terrorists and there actions) and there are a lot of Muslims just like me. I don’t agree with war but I do support our troops and there families. I am proud to be British. Islam is a religion of peace. I have friends of all faiths including Christians and Jews. My whole family wears a poppy on remembrance Sunday.

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  • 39. At 8:01pm on 18 Jan 2010, Jeannie wrote:

    I agree with David,who wrote about promoting christianity,I think we all need to promote christianity more.I was brought up as a christian,and would never think about hurting any one,or pushing my belief's on to someone else.But when I was growing up our country was a lovely country to be in.I had never heard of muslims,it was just a green and pleasant land.It's so sad to see what has happened .Why on earth do they want to be hear,why don't they go and live in a muslim country if they don't like our rules.

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  • 40. At 8:04pm on 18 Jan 2010, Phil wrote:

    To all those conspiracy theorists out there. As an architect/ engineer and an eye witness to the events of September the 11th in New York. It was real. For those unable to digest this fact you are too institutionalised for your own good.

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  • 41. At 8:04pm on 18 Jan 2010, vince wrote:

    thebritishwatcher and others why on earth would you want or think the conservatives should win and sort this problem out its not a new problem and with two faced cameron in cahoots with the u.a.f an organisation that
    says the flying of the english and union flags are disgusting as it upsets certain so called minoritys! and also turn up in large groups to support radical muslims in this country just what do you think they will really do? the problem needs to be addressed by the decent muslim comunity the ones that happy fit in and intograte with uk laws and our way of life but rarely do you hear them.

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  • 42. At 8:08pm on 18 Jan 2010, Steve wrote:

    As a British (sorry English born citizen) I am totally frustrated by the "soft cover" of news reporting given to the Muslim society!! i am not racist but am becoming more and more fed up with the fact that our guys in Afghanistan seem to be losing their lives "DOING THEIR DUTY" while we in Britain pay for housing, child support, food etc for the people that claim to be running away from the Taliban and then seem to be actually working with/for them? not all Muslims I agree but the Muslim community needs to get a grip on their children before another disaster happens... Come on Britain let's speak up for once and not assume Islam is innevitable!

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  • 43. At 8:10pm on 18 Jan 2010, Osiris wrote:

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

  • 44. At 8:23pm on 18 Jan 2010, Star22 wrote:

    Maybe if all rligion was banned the world would be a fairer place...just a thought!!

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  • 45. At 8:24pm on 18 Jan 2010, Star22 wrote:

    Sorry i ment religion!!

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  • 46. At 8:25pm on 18 Jan 2010, nicholas wrote:

    WHY AS MY COMMENTS BEEN TAKEN OFF

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  • 47. At 8:30pm on 18 Jan 2010, Osiris wrote:

    If this is a courty that supports freedom of speach. Why are some comments being removed? Is it because they are to truthful and addresses the problem at point blank?

    May I also ask of the moderators, what faith/religion are you all?

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  • 48. At 8:32pm on 18 Jan 2010, vince wrote:

    personally i think we have been too tolerant of non english,welsh,scottish trouble makers we bend over backwards to there every whim the media twists everything usually in favour of these traitors. e,g muslim attacks englishman = man attacked. englishman attacks muslim = sickening rascist attack. radical muslim groups protest outside christain church etc and we tollerate it nothing in papers.if non muslim group protest anywhere =right wing extremists .
    patriotic white u.k citizen = nazi! seems you can have pride in any background but not a white neglish one as that is beeing rascist.then we have people like ken livingstone trying to befriend any enemy of the state he can chum up to . these days hes welcoming radical muslims to our country just for them to stand in the streets preeching evil against us aloong with 100s of followers!

    well i think people have finally had enough and are not so scared to stand up and say so. beeing patriotic is not beeing a rascist. we should treat any traiors of this country the way tey would treat you in there country lets play by there rules for a change because our rules arent working were just seen as weak

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  • 49. At 8:40pm on 18 Jan 2010, nicholas wrote:

    ARE BRITISH MUSLIMS HAPPY TO LIVE IN A CHRISTIAN COUNTRY, OR WOULD THEY BE HAPPIER IF BRITION WAS A MUSLIM COUNTRY

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  • 50. At 8:42pm on 18 Jan 2010, Bee wrote:

    I think that this is one subject that should be covered in all schools across the world as a compulsary subject say from the age of 11, this is the time that youngsters are beginging to reach the stage of developing their perspective of what is happening around them and being able to go out alone properly,which is where the whole gang issues and anti social behavior starts to develop,as well as extremisism and racial abuse, if these students are more aware of what is going on and the effects that it has on others it may just reduce these crimes. I have lived in areas that are muslim dominated and saw alot them as british citezens just like myself and even encouraged my children to interact with a few families I knew, they did ask why the muslims were different at first then accepted it,it`s about time more was done to get the situation under control.

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  • 51. At 8:42pm on 18 Jan 2010, Osiris wrote:

    Hi Nickolas. My posts were shown and then removed too! I think they don't like seeing/reading the truth.

    This whole country is scared of its own people having their say. We will be classed as the extremists because we speak out yet speaking out is a good way of dealing with issues. Something the goverment has done so much to hinder, mainly because it stops them having to deal with them problem. If we cant talk OPENLY about this issue, in their eyes it doesn't exist.

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  • 52. At 9:02pm on 18 Jan 2010, truthrat wrote:

    Shiraz Maher is a new species of Muslim 'ex-extremists' whose change of heart at first glance admirable. Unfortunately he has moved to the other extreme of the pro-Israeli, pro-war and pro-draconian antiterror laws Muslim liberal with the added benefit of being a 'mainstream' media favourite. He uses Mcarthy-ite tactics to smear moderate Muslims and Muslim groups who condemn terrorists and extremism but who hold a position that is critical of the governments foreign policy. I am a British born Muslim and proud of both - this guy does not represent me.

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  • 53. At 9:06pm on 18 Jan 2010, silvercloud wrote:

    I think at the end of the day it all comes down to one thing, which is knowledge. Young people, and young muslims and indeed the general public need to be taught or be aware of the CORRECT teachings of Islam. As the true Islam does not teach terrorism. I think this would combat extremism.

    Some people mentioned that they would like to see muslims openly doing something about this. What would you like us to do? Next week at a university islamic society near where i live there is a lecture being held particularly on this subject and in direct response to the comments of people saying muslims dont do enough to condemn terrorism. But in all honesty i think it is unfair to completely place the blame on muslims for not doing enough to condemn this. Yes, i do believe more could be done. But i also think the media has a big responsibility in making sure that it does not implicitly suggest that Islam is a religion of terrorism and it orders terrorism, because this is false. And this is what leads to stereotypes and muslims being victimised or looked down upon because of the actions of a minority of muslims.

    Unfortunately i only caught the last bit of this part of the show so i cant really comment on what he said, is there anywhere i can watch it online?

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  • 54. At 9:36pm on 18 Jan 2010, mez wrote:

    '49. At 8:40pm on 18 Jan 2010, nicholas wrote:
    ARE BRITISH MUSLIMS HAPPY TO LIVE IN A CHRISTIAN COUNTRY, OR WOULD THEY BE HAPPIER IF BRITION WAS A MUSLIM COUNTRY'

    I do not class this as a christian country neither would I want it to be classed as just a muslim country, muslims aint scroungers as people may comment 'they take our jobs.' well all I can say is if it was your job in the first place why aint you got it?


    I am a British Muslim in a full time job, and im at uni full time, I pay my taxes and so does my brother, sister and my dad and many more people in my family and belive it or not I also pay for my own medication too aswell as national insurance and there are also many more muslim's who do the same but people only focus on the negative aspects. You just have to walk on the streets of london to see the different diversity of people, instead of classifying them as one group of people why not embrace the diffrence, I think the main problem arises when you start to travel further upnorth, as people are closed in there own little boxes and the diversity dies away.



    My memories as a kid growing up in london was playing outside with kids who where hindu, christian, muslim, sikh etc and you know what they where the best days of my life, we use to also go into each others houses and see the cross displayed, or see the gods displayed etc now that I have moved upnorth, theres theres alot less mix of people, and people have there own little ideas, and concepts in there own little boxes! and it makes me reliase how ignorant people really are.

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  • 55. At 10:01pm on 18 Jan 2010, Dan Kelly wrote:

    One of the best ways to re-educate young Muslims could be to stop going to war on their countries of origin. This element was missed in your programme tonight. Even though you are born in the UK, you will still have feelings for your roots and indeed,still have relatives there. As Shiraz rightly said there is a reason for every action so could this be one of the reasons why young Muslims are easily recruited by fanatics? Also it does not help to build up some kind of suspicion or distrust of ALL Muslims and without bringing the war into the picture you present,that is what your programme,intentionally or not,did. In a complicated situation like this, simplification does the discussion no favoure.

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  • 56. At 10:08pm on 18 Jan 2010, Dan Kelly wrote:

    Please could I suggest some reading for those interested in this subject. A small but powerful and above all HONEST book.

    MAKING TERRORISM HISTORY...By Elworth and Rifkind.

    Thankyou.

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  • 57. At 10:58pm on 18 Jan 2010, MarkCE wrote:

    Frank Field MP, chair of the highly influential Migration Select Committee is a Labour politician who speaks much common sense about the whole issue of Islam in Britain. As a Labour Party member and activist, myself, I can honestly say that I will be urging Frank to stand for leadership of our party, if we lose (which sadly seems highly likely) the forthcoming election.

    I am ready to admit that, as a party, we have made the mistake of trying to almost 'force' two very different cultures together (Christian and Muslim) at breakneck speed, by taking our eyes off the immigration issues facing this country and happily admitting people into this country who, to be honest, basically hated us and were only interested in milking our lax benefits and public service systems.

    As one contributor said earlier, if any Muslim immigrant (or, indeed, any Muslim descending from immigrants who came here in the 60's-90's)
    finds our way of life SOOO disagreeable and thinks that Sharia Law is the next best thing since sliced bread, then maybe they should just clear off to a country like Iran or Saudi...either of which, along with many others in the East, would happily indulge them.

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  • 58. At 00:09am on 19 Jan 2010, mashwii wrote:

    Just to clarify-There are no contradictions in the Quran, unlike the Bible. People may read things out of context thus they may not have a clear understanding of verses.The quran was revealed over a period of 23 years, and many verses were revealed in relation to what was happening at the time,thus to have a proper understanding of the the verses and chapters one should also study the verses/chapters with the sayings of the prophet/life of the prophet-this would give much more clarity and a better understanding.

    As with any case, once you have more backgroud information to something, you have a better understanding of what's going on.

    If you still think that there are contradictions in the Quran,get a copy and have a read.There are millions of people all over the world who have memorised the Qur'an from cover to cover.

    It is an incontrovertible historical truth that the text of the Holy Qur'an extant today is, syllable for syllable, exactly the same as the Prophet had offered to the world as the Word of God. After the Prophet past away, the first Caliph assembled all those that had learnt portions of the Quran and the written records of the Holy Qur'an and with their help had the whole text written in Book form. Copies of this original version were later made and officially dispatched to the Capitals of the Islamic World. Two Of these copies exist in the world today, one in Istanbul and the other in Tashkent. Whosoever is so inclined may compare any printed text of the Holy Qur'an with those two copies, he shall find no variation.

    Just had to clarify,Thanks.

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  • 59. At 00:20am on 19 Jan 2010, investment8 wrote:

    Dan Kelly says Shariz Maher says in the program that there is a reason for every action. It was his interviewee who said that. Shariz Maher is a senior fellow of the right wing think tank =policy exchange=, linked closely to the conservative party. He is an ex member of the fundamentalist Hizb-ut-Tahir, and a very untypical Muslim. He writes like a tabloid columnist with tunnel vision. In the Daily Telegraph on the 9th Jan 2009 he writes about the Gaza conflict =At its core, this is the straightforward decision that British Muslims will have to make: between Hamas, a terrorist group committed to destroying a sovereign state and its people – and Israel, the region's only democracy which is responding to that threat. It really is that simple.= In the magazine of the =policy exchange= called =prospect magazine= on the 9th Nov 2009 he writes =....of course, the one we've all heard about is the Israeli security fence which attracted fierce criticism after its construction in 2003. Built in response to the Palestinian intifada which claimed more than 900 lives since September 2000, the fence has dramatically halted the number of terrorist attacks inside the country.=He then goes on to justify the wall in relation to borders between Muslim countries. I do not intend to attack or defend his views, but they seem similar to those of the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs website, and so his views are surely not typical of the moderate Muslim community in this country. Later tonight Panorama showed a different side of the argument, the conflict over East Jerusalem, which made me wonder if the Israeli political elite ever did have any intention of allowing a Palestinian state. Perhaps this is the BBC covering itself? Who to trust?

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  • 60. At 00:40am on 19 Jan 2010, Neil wrote:

    The best way to tackle extremism is for MI5/MI6 the CIA and FBI to stop recruiting Muslim stooges for false flag terror attacks. Even now the BBC still persists with its crusade against truth, preferring to show comments such as 'There were no Jews in the tower on 911' which is patently nonsense, while ignoring FBI whistleblower Sibel Edmonds. Shame on the BBC, for failing to reveal the truth about 911 and 7/7

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  • 61. At 03:43am on 19 Jan 2010, peacerose wrote:

    I really don't understand what agenda the BBC has in promoting people like Shiraz but I can guess. Firstly I am an ordinary Muslim who is a peace campaigner and has for over 15 years warned against groups like HT and AL Muhaajiroon. So the ordinary sincere Muslims who try to practice their religion to the best of their ability would not ever go in for any groups such as these- they were always nut job recruiters in my opinion. Wherever HT members were on campus that's where trouble was- it was their sole mission as far as what I saw to disrupt the activities of ordinary muslim members of Islamic societies-and mosques. My own theory? I think thats why they were allowed to carry on unabated for so many years because they caused so much trouble - which leads me on to then suggest- who was ultimately supporting them? And now we have ex members coming out of the woodwork crying out "we're not extremists anymore!!! we know about Islam!!! We are the experts!" What is interesting is far from representing any ordinary muslim I know , as highlighted by INVESTMENT8'S comment, they tend to hold a very right wing political view which alienates even further the ordinary British Muslim.
    Secondly it is very interesting that these ex members now seem to be justifying the Islamophobic policies being put in place by our government. What is also interesting is they also come out with statements such as "well muslims are only one step away from becoming extremists" and "they are into the conspiracy theories". What ever conspiracy theory they are into doesn't mean they are one step away from blowing someone up. You wouldn't think that of BNP members would you?
    Then we have the amazing way he selectively quotes the Quran - missing out the following line "but do not be brutal" not explaining the context of the verse and then comes out with the astonishing statement that verses in the Quran need to be challenged.
    NO MATE THEY DONT. IGNORANT PEOPLE LIKE YOU NEED TO BE CHALLENGED.
    The damage that this piece has done yet again put out by a BBC show is immeasurable. It feeds the assumption that people who believe and accept the Quran as whole must be extremists, and that it is the religion that feeds the mentality of people who join groups like the one Shiraz joined.
    What is needed is correct interpretation of Islam, fair representation of muslims and the religion, not picking out a couple of lads in a snooker joint, feeding the already hysterical ideas people have about Islam. The continual imagery of buildings being blown up and aftermaths of terror attacks- come on do you really think that was doing Ordinary law abiding Muslims any favours- yet again reinforcing the stereotype-that Muslim = Terrorist.
    Talk to some educated people, who are passionate about their religion, love the message of Islam- yes believe it or not we do exist- and we are not terrorists.

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  • 62. At 03:54am on 19 Jan 2010, peacerose wrote:

    OH and by the way lets put this one to rest for once and for all- Shariah law has in parts been part of the law of this land since the Normans landed. The good old Normans when they conquered the Emirate of Sicily liked the law system in place and implemented many parts of it when they took over England. The majority of these laws and concepts and terminologies are still in place today.They are part of the British legal system today.
    Oh dear. Must be a shock for all you right wing biggots, who use the the word Shariah to induce even more hysteria in the general public. The word Shariah means path by the way and deals with many things including contractual law, hygiene, banking , economics social issues etc etc.
    Read your history.

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  • 63. At 10:28am on 19 Jan 2010, jackie43 wrote:

    I was extremely upset by the Shiraz Mayer article on the One Show on 18th January. To give airtime to an individual who only decided to become radicalised AFTER the 911 attack would seem an unwise and unpopular decision by those involved in the making of this programme. The comments made by the two men in the article were incorrect, inflammatory, upsetting and should not, under any circumstances have been aired. The BBC has a duty of care to its viewers and licence payers. There IS NOT, NOR EVER CAN BE a valid reason for showing this package. My fear is that if any other radicalised individuals were watching that programme, they would be encourage by the comments made by the two men, be encouraged by Shiraz's story. This is not about giving someone their 15 minutes of fame. The terrorists attacks killed thousands of innocent people, the BBC should be more responsible in the decisions made, they should be empathetic to the millions of us who abhor anyone wanting to make a name for themselves, using The One Show as their platform. Perhaps Christine and Adrian should address the distress caused last night, and distance themselves from the fallout. Thank you

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  • 64. At 11:34am on 19 Jan 2010, Colin Campbell wrote:

    Is it not the case that the Koran states (I paraphrase)that if a Muslim wishes to attain Paradise he or she should kill an Infidel? (a non-Muslim)

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  • 65. At 1:17pm on 19 Jan 2010, peacerose wrote:

    @ Colin Campbell- what a load of tosh. Which translation of the Quran are you reading? the one written by Mickey Mouse? Please tell me the Verse and chapter to which you are referring.
    The Quran, for Non Muslim readers cannot be accurately translated, however you can get very reputable works such as that by Abdullah Yususf Ali, whose translation of the meaning is very close to the original.
    The Quran needs to be read in its entirety and passages referring to battles need to be read with reference to the context in which they are revealed. That is certain verses regarding fighting were revealed wrt particular battles being fought in that moment in time.
    For your information, the Quran states that under the Sharia , A murder victim's family is entitled to have the recourse of capital punishment for the murderer. However the verse then states quite clearly-BUT IF YOU FORGIVE THEM IT IS BETTER FOR YOU.
    LASTLY jihad doesn't mean holy war it means struggle, so as I struggle with my key things in my life, that is classed as a jihad. EVEN CHILDBIRTH IS CONSIDERED AS A JIHAD FOR THE MOTHER- STRUGGLE for the greater good- get it?
    By the way no where in Islam does it state that suicide is allowed, let alone as a weapon of "war".
    ANYONE WHO COMMITS SUICIDE by any definition is someone who has lost hope in their life lost hope wrt the cause they are "supporting" and have a distorted view of what is acceptable and what isnt, and are probably depressed. LOSING HOPE IS A FORM OF DISBELIEF AND IS STRICTLY FORBIDDEN. This loss of hope is classed as having lost hope in the Mercy of Allah and The Merciful is one of Allah's attributes. People who take this sort of unjust action to get justice, are stepping over the boundary of what is permissable.They are actually committing a sin.
    With respect to certain mass killings in America those individuals are always recognised as mentally ill. However whenever a "muslim" is caught or identified, its because he is a Muslim fundamentalist, or a muslim extremist, or terrorist. NOWHERE IN ISLAM IS SUICIDE ALLOWED FOR THE INDIVIDUAL, AND IT IS CERTAINLY NOT ALLOWED as a weapon of war, let alone going in and killing non combatants. There are strict rules in the engagement of battles- which go so far as to protect crops and trees. It certainly doesn't allow any soldier to go in and kill groups of people in a suicide mission.
    I am not saying that certain individuals should be felt sorry for, however it has to be insisted now that their actions have nothing to do with Islam and more to do with their mental state. WE ORDINARY MUSLIMS ARE SICK OF THE LABELS AND IT NEEDS TO STOP.

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  • 66. At 2:12pm on 19 Jan 2010, jadedoldie wrote:

    Post 54 mez, whatever your wishes or beliefs, this IS a Christian country and you give your post no credence by your denial of that fact!

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  • 67. At 7:58pm on 19 Jan 2010, investment8 wrote:

    Looking at these posts it seems to me, that believers in God, be they Jews, Christians or Muslims, often speak as if their religions have nothing to offer each other. Fundamentalism in any of these religious traditions is best fought against, by pointing out that it makes bad religion. Fundamentalism weakens not strengthens connections with God, and like atheism is rooted in this world. The future is about looking outwards, getting strength from and giving support to the other community?

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  • 68. At 10:38pm on 19 Jan 2010, newbluesfan wrote:

    peacerose you ask for chapter and verse of violent inducing verses from the Koran - how about these for starters:
    * “Strike off their [infidel's] heads. Strike off their finger-tips! … because they defied God and his Apostle [Muhammad].” (Sura 8:12-13)
    * “Make war on them [infidels] until idolatry shall cease and God’s religion shall reign supreme.” (Sura 2:193)
    * “Seize them and put them to death wherever you find them.” (Sura 4:89)
    * “Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you.” (Sura 9:123)
    * “When the sacred months [Ramadan] are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them; besiege them; and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent [convert to Islam] and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way.” (Sura 9:5)

    If a Muslim begins to take these verses literally and seriously, as all good Muslims are supposed to do – since they are taught that every verse is directly handed down from Allah, then it is easy to see how they could incite violent behavior toward “nonbelievers.”

    IMHO all violent inducing or anti-social verses from the Koran or Bible from any religion should be removed with a view to enabling all non-violent religious followers to genuinely belong to a unequivocally non-violent group. This would really would be a step forward to local, national and world peace.

    Strangely I have a feeling that even moderates within religions would never agree to such a modernising and cleansing of their 'holy' documents - I hope i am proved wrong!!

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  • 69. At 00:46am on 20 Jan 2010, peacerose wrote:

    @newblues fan. I dont know whether to laugh or cry. Am I supposed to just fall down in shame because you happen to pull out a few refs and call them violent inducing? Lets just look at one of them shall we?

    Surah 2-193. Again you have quoted this out of context and the translation is incorrect. This one verse is part of a passage revealed wrt a historical event at the time in order to give guidance to Prophet Muhammed Peace be upon him and his followers. The whole passage reads-
    (VERSE 190)
    Fight in the cause of God those who fight you,
    (CONDITION)(HENCE NOT VIOLENCE INDUCING AS THE VIOLENCE IS ALREADY BEING PERPETRATED AGAINIST THE PROPHET)( the commentary states"War is only permissable in self defence....)
    But do not transgress limits;
    For God loveth not transgressors.
    Verse 191
    And slay them wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tummult and oppression are worse than slaughter; But fight them not in the Sacred mosque, Unless they first fight you there; but if they fight you slay them, such is the reward of those who suppress faith."
    (again conditions)
    192
    But if they cease, God is Oft forgiving, Most Merciful.
    ( is this violence inducing)
    193
    And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God;
    But if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression.

    This passage refers to and reflects the events that happened at Hudaibiya ( though wasnt revealed at that exact time) in the 6th year of Hijra and refers to where the Pagans of Mecca broke many treaties and committed many crimes against the muslims (such as crushing to death one of the first converts to Islam- by placing rocks on her chest, trying to get her to recant) amongst other types of oppression.
    Again condition- fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression-there has to be that going on before they were able to take up arms.

    Surah 8 verse12-13
    Remember thy Lord inspired the ANGELS ( with the message): " I am with you : give Firmness to the believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips off them."
    "This is because they contended with God and His Apostle: If any contend against God and His Apostle, God is strict in punishment."
    This again was revealed wrt a historical battle, the battle of UHUD where the Muslims were seriously outnumbered and is not a command for men to carry out this action, but describes the punishment sent down by God, carried out by the Angels, on the enemy.
    Again you have misquoted and the translation is awful and seriously MISLEADING.
    A similar punishment was given to Pharoah when he was chasing Moses and the children of Israel and the miracle of the sea parting was given to Moses peace be upon him, where he and his followers were saved, and Pharoah and his armies were destroyed by drowning in the sea.

    Surah 4- 89
    They but wish that you should reject faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing as they:But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of God ( from what has been forbidden).
    But if they turn renegades seize them and slay them wherever you find them, and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks:
    Verse 90
    "Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty of peace or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people....."
    Again this referring to a historical battle where a group of people called the Hypocrites betrayed the Prophet (peace be upon him) deserted the battle field leading to disastrous consequences.
    Imagine a band of soldiers doing that in the heat of a battle and just upsticks and leaving the rest of their comrades to certain slaughter?
    There were 2 parties within the Prophet's( peace be upon him) camp one who wanted to kill them there and there, another to leave them alone. Both these extremes were avoided by the revelation of the above verses. "IT WAS CLEAR THAT THEY WERE A DANGER TO THE MUSLIM COMMUNITY IF THEY WERE ADMITTED INTO THEIR COUNSELS, AND IN ANY CASE THEY WERE A SOURCE OF DEMORALISATION. BUT WHILE EVERY CAUTION WAS USED, NO EXTREME MEASURES WERE TAKEN. ON THE CONTRARY THEY WERE GIVEN A CHANCE TO MAKE GOOD. IF THEY MADE A SACRFICE FOR THE CAUSE, THEIR CONDUCT PURGED THEIR PREVIOUS COWARDICE AND THEIR SINCERITY ENTITLED THEM TO BE TAKEN BACK..."( TAKEN FROM THE COMMENTARY)
    May I respectfully remind you that in this country upto the second world war deserters were court marshalled and shot.
    Here it shows that deserters were tolerated but not given positions of trust.
    Action was only to be taken if they deserted and betrayed again. Note no one was forcing them to battlefield. But if you have made a commitment and arrive there at the battlefield and your position is to protect your comrades and you desert again, then, that is tantamount to manslaughter.

    EVERY SINGLE QUOTE IN YOUR POST IS MISTRANSLATED AND QUOTED OUT OF CONTEXT. I HAVE USED THE MEANING OF THE TRANSLATION OF THE HOLY QURAN BY ABDULLAH YUSUF ALI. THIS IS PROBABLY ONE OF THE BEST WORKS AND IS INTERNATIONALLY USED, AND BY MANY SCHOLARS IN THEIR ACADEMIC WORKS. THE BEST WAY OF UNDERSTANDING THE QURAN IS HOWEVER TO LEARN ARABIC, BECAUSE YOU CAN NEVER ACCURATELY TRANSLATE ONE LANGUAGE TO ANOTHER.

    If you would like me to correct the rest of your misquotes then please let me know. But I think that's enough to be going on with don't you?
    Lastly in your comment you say that the verses incite violent behaviour- no they don't. Misquoted mis- translated texts ( MANY TIMES THIS IS DELIBERATE) MAY CONTRIBUTE TO THIS, BUT NEITHER THE QURAN, NOR ISLAM IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS. Rather we should be encouraging the proper promotion of accurate documents and encourage everyone to study Islam for themselves.
    I call my self a Muslim Fundamentalist- because the fundamentals of Islam are Peace Mercy , justice, Tolerance. We are told in the Quran " oh people of the the book , come to common terms with us that we dwell in peace"- that is let's use the common things in our religions to be a foundation for us to live in peace together, and not be divided about the differences.

    Surah 2 verse 256.
    Let there be NO compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error:.........

    Nuff said.



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  • 70. At 9:18pm on 20 Jan 2010, wendymann wrote:

    it curious that so many self proclaimed ex islamists move from one extreme to the other, generally embracing the funadamentalist ideology of the neo conservatives, that frankly has led us into this mess.

    here's what Stella Rimington, the former head of MI6, has had to say about it:

    'Look at what those people who've been arrested or have left suicide videos say about their motivation. And most of them, as far as I'm aware, say that the war in Iraq played a significant part in persuading them that this is the right course of action to take. So I think you can't write the war in Iraq out of history. If what we're looking at is groups of disaffected young men born in this country who turn to terrorism, then I think to ignore the effect of the war in Iraq is misleading'.

    Terrorism Common Sense from MI6 - Nigel Inkster, former Assistant Chief and Director of Operations and Intelligence of MI6:

    The secret-service mandarin suggested that the Global War On Terror initiated by the Bush administration could never be won.

    "We can't kill or arrest our way out of this problem... we will never solve this issue and live in a terrorism-free world. It has to be managed."

    Inkster said that there was definitely a need for police and sometimes military action in fighting terrorism, but suggested that it was now widely acknowledged in the spook community that the Iraq invasion -- and now the Israeli assault on Gaza - were definite factors in radicalisation of British domestic terrorists.

    "A move away from the rhetoric of GWOT will help," he said, saying that the "more nuanced message" of the Obama administration was already showing results.

    As for recommendations, Inkster said that it was important to promote good government and economic opportunity around the world"

    clearly the commentary from shiraz was not entirely accurate, it solely focussed on islam rather than other factors which play a far greater role . robert pape in his research found that suicide attacks were as a result of the political grievance rather than being driven by religion.

    what is more revealing are the stats from europol 2006:

    figures from europol, the European police agency, reveal that so called islamist terror attacks in Europe constituted 0.2% of all 'terrorism' throughout the continent in 2006.

    unsurprisingly, there has been little in the media about this interesting figure in the month since it was published

    in their first report of this nature "European Terrorism Situation and Trend Report 2007" europol reports that across the EU there were 498 terrorist attacks in 2006.

    these include:

    •424 ethno-nationalist and separatist (mostly in france and spain)
    •55 left-wing and anarchist” (mainly greece , italy, spain and germany)
    •1 failed islamist terrorist attack (in germany, plus two more attempts allegedly foiled in denmark and the uk)
    •1 right-wing terrorist attack (in poland)

    the figures appear to over report left and anarchist 'terror' by categorising some political demonstrations which result in damage to property as 'terrorism'.

    on germany it reports that 'the G8 Summit 2007 that still has to be held has already been the target of left-wing and anarchist terrorists.'

    "mainly investigated as right-wing extremism and not as right-wing terrorism".

    the report only includes right wing and animal rights political violence as terrorism if reported as such by member states.

    the report does also note that the 0.2% of attacks undertaken by so called islamists resulted in fully half the 706 arrests in the eu being of muslims.

    the uk itself has seen hundreds of arrests on trumped up charges which are later shown to be false and often propagandist.

    how well does the pattern of media reporting conformed to the pattern of offences or the pattern of arrests?

    in 2006 the national press in the uk carried 26,577 reports which mentioned the word 'terrorist' or 'terrorism'. of these 7,620 also referred to 'islam', 'islamist' or 'muslim'. in other words the media reported islamist violence out of all proportion to the number of attacks.

    this is hardly helpful to those trying the resist the wave of islamophobia emanating from sections of the media, police and from the intelligence agencies and politicians.

    clearly the government has sought to scapegoat muslims and islam rather than be faced with the reality of their decision to take us into war whilst the uk intel agencies warned that the result would be an increased extremist threat.




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  • 71. At 9:29pm on 20 Jan 2010, wendymann wrote:

    the truth of the matter is that likes of shiraz maher along with the quilliam foundation and islam4uk etc dont have a muslim constituency, they speak almost exclusively to non muslims and significantly on behalf of non muslims.

    they state what the government wants the public to hear and what many in the public have been made to believe through the media. we have the 'reformed' extremists and the cartoonish stereotypical 'extremist' under the banner of islam4uk.

    it is fascinating to watch these characters play it out with full media coverage whilst mainstream muslims largely voiceless and are not given a platform are suffering from the propaganda that seeks to demonise them.

    of course the demonisation serves to create the idea of a threat greater than it is and it takes the public gaze aqway from the wars for resources that we are engaged in.

    if the one show is going to move into this political ground then surely it has to speak of the actual reason of our being in iraq, cheap gas/oil in fact a entire country as an asset and the $15 trillion dollars worth of gas that can be got at through afghansitan , not to mention iran and paksitans crucial place considering afghanistan is landlocked.

    i doubt thre is room for an honest debate just the soft patriotism that is being sold on a pretty much daily basis these days.


    anyway to answer another point-

    "Why not promote Christianity a religion of peace and love and its the religion of Great Britain. You never see suicide bombers that are followers of Christ."

    when one has the military to do the killing why does one need a suicide attacker. however it is incorrect to claim that there have not been any christian suicide bombers.

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  • 72. At 10:09pm on 20 Jan 2010, wendymann wrote:

    " It feeds the assumption that people who believe and accept the Quran as whole must be extremists, and that it is the religion that feeds the mentality of people who join groups like the one Shiraz joined."

    it is curious isnt it how these few get 'hand picked' and are given so much media air time and government attention.

    the issue is this it benefits government to scapegoat islam and muslims, it deflects attention from their actions it also enables stringent laws to be passed that would not otherwise . the tories in this respect appear to be even more hawkish, with the likes of michael gove in its ranks.

    the arguments being put forward as 'mainstream' on this kind of programme are from the extreme discourse that is being had by neo cons here and the usa, it is surely not by chance that this ideology is given this airtime.

    the fact is that 'muslims' along with the rest of the british public hear and learn more about so called 'islamist' ideas from neo conservatives than any other source. its as if the neo cons have written the 'book'. very strange indeed. the neo cons are indeed speaking to themselves, selling perceptions to the public who are not any the wiser as to what is real and what is manufactured.

    clearly if we are to dominate the resources of mid east and africa we are going to be in conflicts for a very long time, there is no one bogeyman that can be called upon for so many wars, but islam and this idea of a 'muslim' can be easily harnessed since there is so much ignorance of the faith and of muslims. that is the media can manipulate our perceptions quite easily.

    obama pretty much named the new axis of evil recently, nigeria, sudan, somalia, yemen, pakistan . we're already at war with pakistan if one considers the illegal use of drones by the usa.

    you dont think that the one show would give you the chance to give a rebuttal to shiraz and the prevailing govt message...neither do i.

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