BBC BLOGS - Newsnight: From the web team
« Previous | Main | Next »

Thursday 24 November 2011

Verity Murphy | 13:31 UK time, Thursday, 24 November 2011

On tonight's show we look at figures out today showing a record level of net migration to the UK. In 2010 it reached 252,000, soaring higher than the government target of "tens of thousands". Immigration Minister Damian Green, and people directly effected by the issue, will be joining Kirsty.

Also at record numbers are Neets, young people in England not in education, employment or training. Tonight, we look at the pressures facing young workers.

Looking ahead to next week's strikes, with more than two million workers expected to walk out, we assess the scale of the likely disruption. The government is warning that the action could cost the UK economy £500m and lead to job losses.

The so-called most dangerous place in Europe, Dagestan, boasts the unexpected accolade of employing Samuel Eto'o - reportedly the best paid player in football. In an attempt to unify the troubled republic in Russia's North Caucasus, the capital's football team, Anzhi Makhachkala, has been splashing its billionaire owner's cash to attract top talent and take the locals' minds off the daily violence. We have a special report tonight.

Comments

Page 1 of 2

  • Comment number 1.

  • Comment number 2.

    "Looking ahead to next week's strikes, with more than two million workers expected to walk out, we assess the scale of the likely disruption. The government is warning that the action could cost the UK economy £500m and lead to job losses."


    The irresponsibility of public sector workers has been laid bare by an MP who really knows about taxpayer-funded excess.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jun/17/francis-maude-rhodium-plated-pensions

  • Comment number 3.

  • Comment number 4.

    I was just speculating about the proposed public sector strikes at the end of this month. It just shows the ten bob fat cats all up that the average turnout in all the strike ballots has only been around 33%, and even if three to one did back strike action, its hardly a sound mandate. I suspect that the government will make political mincemeat of the Unions, and take an ample opportunity to introduce legislation to ban strikes if less than 50% of the membership actually turn out to vote.

    It would appear that perhaps only 20% of public servants are now in a position where they can afford to lose a days pay, with the rest effectively slaves to the banks and their overdraft limit. Taking this into consideration it may be reasonable to believe that widespread corruption is occurring in the civil service in that the Banks may now effectively control many people making front line policy decisions. Banks may now be able to effectively control functions like planning etc to be made in the interest of corporate finance, overriding any theoretical political policy and any democratic representations from members of the public ?

  • Comment number 5.

    All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

  • Comment number 6.

    How many have carefully looked into the complex, and most definitely non transparent (hence their profuse abuse of the word) relationship
    between:

    1) Household debt
    2) Non Profit Institutions Serving Households (e.g "charities"/NGOs) debt

    vs debt accounted for by the:

    banks and Private Sector business

    relative to GDP (in this era of non nations) and Public Sector (Non
    Government) debt?

    Surely more should be asking where those Private Sector companies are listed, who owns 40% or more of the listed shares and where they are domiciled? Surely people should be asking who the banks lend money to, and where in the world those borrowers are? Surely they should ask who's getting clobbered - and who's having Private Sector toxic debt dumped upon them?

    Has everyone noticed how shifty eyed some of the politicians and "arms length independent" Governors are?

    Is this a fair set of questions for Paul Mason and Newsnight Production Team to shed some light on?

    http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2011/10/total%20debt%20to%20gdp_0.jpg

  • Comment number 7.

    #4 brossen99 wrote:

    "I suspect that the government will make political mincemeat of the Unions, and take an ample opportunity to introduce legislation to ban strikes if less than 50% of the membership actually turn out to vote."

    But why would they do that?...I don't think they will as that could result in the unions achieving a TRULY democratic mandate to strike that would make our parliamentary General Election results look foolish (and at the same time take away the Con-D'em Gov'ts key [spin] attack line).

  • Comment number 8.

    All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

  • Comment number 9.

    This is classic Anti-Social Personality Disorder (an Axis II Cluster B identity disorder)

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-15853088

    which is of a VERY high frequency in offending behaviour. Normal, well meaning people find this behaviour very hard to grasp, but wrongly think it can be changed by talking to them or through special cognitive skills programmes. One can't even tell many young and not so young psychologists this. Such efforts are laughed at and seen as a weakness by the above. It is quite remarkable how many inexperienced members of the public think they know better, even when experts, who have years of experience with these behaviours, tell them otherwise. This information was released by the police in order to (vainly alas) try to increase public awareness.

  • Comment number 10.

    'we look at figures out today showing a record level of net migration to the UK'

    Got to love government targets. Meet 'em, and a select few get a stonkin' bonus for being brutal, usually. Fail to meet 'em, and they become more ambitions, or guidelines... probably with a stress compo lobbed in.

    On the bright side, at least there is a respite from being hammered with how awful all the cuts are, as in this area there seem to have been none.

    '...cash to attract top talent and take the locals' minds off the daily violence.'

    Would that be 'market rate talent', of a kind we hear about anywhere else but here? Could work. Maybe those banksters could try knocking a football about of a weekend, or presenting a nighty show, and then all those questions being asked that make folk 'angry' may evaporate.

  • Comment number 11.

    Watch the "snakes in suits" serving as market cheerleader (commentators) on the ECB issue as they have a vested interest as do the Rating Agencies. There can be no printing of money by the ECB given the Lisbon Treaty. All that can happen is a new treaty for a smaller EU group which wants this vacuuming out of sovereignty and many in the EU don't.

    They've seen how the USA Government by Goldman-Sachs etc and the Federal Reserve behaved at the expense of the American public. Note also how Europe has been depopulated in recent generations by luring people into extended education and other devices whilst the Libertarian system has bused in less able voters/consumers in to compensate whilst passing EU Human Rights laws? It's all truly evil, but it's just capital at work - its systemic, not personal. Those who endorse it aren't too nice, but it's systematic not personal. Many of those endorsing it just can't see the consequences as they are so self-absorbed and there is not much that can change them, they just have to be replaced, and that's what elections are supposed to be for. Where is the real opposition? We have nothing like that in China etc. It's rendered verboten. It is effectively a swear word!!.

  • Comment number 12.

    Please take note. Anyone who had to manage large institutions where lots of people from diverse areas come in to contact with one another used to have a major public health risk on their hands. Many of the people finding themselves in camps etc during times of war etc would have had little if any knowledge of this, and the danger of vectors of typhus etc as they would have lived in small dwellings away from others where as families they could have maintained their own hygiene - it's what families do. When you puts lots of unrelated people together, one needs someone in charge to enforce this, and some people will always resist that. That can't be allowed for the common good. Just try to imagine what it would be like when one has been rounded up against one's will and stuck in a transit camp. It's hardly likely to elicit love, admiration and compliance is it? This is one reason why forced mass migrations are not a good idea, or even mass gatherings, and why there are laws against it - it encourages epidemics, public health hazards..

    The WHO on this vector::

    http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/resources/vector237to261.pdf

    "Body lice are most commonly found in clothing, especially where it is in direct contact with the body, as in underwear, the crotch or fork of trousers, armpits, waistline, collar and shoulders. They attach themselves to body hair only when feeding. The eggs are attached to thin threads of clothing. Body lice are most common in colder areas where people do not frequently wash or change clothes.Body lice are spread by close contact between people. They are most commonly found, therefore, on people living in overcrowded, unhygienic conditions, as in poorly maintained jails, refugee camps and in trenches during war. They also spread by direct contact between people in crowded transport vehicles and markets.

    Body louse infestations may also be acquired through sharing bedding, towels and clothing or by sitting on infested seats, chair covers or cushions."
    //
    "Only the body louse is a vector of human diseases. It transmits typhus fever, relapsing fever and trench fever."

    "Louse-borne typhus fever

    This disease is caused by a microorganism, Rickettsia prowazekii, and is an acute,highly infectious disease with headache, chills, fever and general pains as symptoms.It may be fatal in 10–40% of untreated cases. The disease has occurred on all continents except Australia. It is prevalent in cool areas where heavy clothing is worn and where the vector is most common. In the past the disease was most common during war and famine."

    Note: "It is prevalent in cool areas where heavy clothes are worn and where the vector is most common"........ like Eastern Europe. That is what fumigants were for:- Protecting people. Does that not make more sense than the wild stories which one hears? The Germans (Saxons) are a civilized people, they effectively invented the welfare state under Bismark.

  • Comment number 13.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 14.

    Much of the net migration into England appears to be from Eastern Europe, including many Poles.

    Generally speaking, the Poles here in England seem to be very hard working people and therefore contribute in valuable ways to English society.

    However, other Eastern Europeans may be here in England simply to escape poverty in their home countries and are entitled to join the Governments benefits system, which must be more attractive to that existing in the home country (if any).

    A long term solution is to harmonise the benefits system across the EU so that, from that perspective, it would be no more attractive to live here in England than in any other EU country.

  • Comment number 15.

    brossen99 wrote: "I suspect that the government will make political mincemeat of the Unions, and take an ample opportunity to introduce legislation to ban strikes if less than 50% of the membership actually turn out to vote."
    //
    ..it may be reasonable to believe that widespread corruption is occurring in the civil service in that the Banks may now effectively control many people making front line policy decisions. Banks may now be able to effectively control functions like planning etc to be made in the interest of corporate finance, overriding any theoretical political policy and any democratic representations from members of the public ?"

    When the Conservatives are in power, they clobber the Civil Service (2% of workforce) and the wider Public Sector (18% of the workforce) because the "Government" is largely there because the Private Sector (80%) put them there.

    The first duty of Civil Servants is always to their Ministers as they are servants of the Government. So it is inevitable that they will be doing the bidding of the banks etc in these lamentable times. That is not corruption, it's just how our system works by design. If we had a true Labour Party in power they would have been looking after their Public Sector and building it up not eroding it as New Labour did (they did this by bad recruitment and retention, or "good" is you see it from Libertarian perspective).

    Sadly, most people don't have a clue how our system works. Please learn.
    That is not the difficult part. All familiar with Government will know this. The problem is how one gets anything different with such a politically ignorant and hissy-fitting electorate which now mistakenly thinks it knows what is going on but clearly doesn't.

    Note, the Telegraph article is just a right wing hit on a Public Sector.
    The FOIA is being abused to harass Pubic Sector academics to demoralise them so they go private. You wait and see. Climate change like so much else is just a political vehicle to achieve a right-wing long term end....

  • Comment number 16.

    All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

  • Comment number 17.

    All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

  • Comment number 18.

    UKIP sold out to the eco-loony ideology, probably to appease their stock market parasite funders, electorate denied a democratic vote on the Climate Scam !

    http://www.ukip.org/content/latest-news/2551-ukip-chooses-byelection-candidate

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07G3FnWtYsQ

  • Comment number 19.

    In Wales the public sector cuts are almost impossible to find. Those who have gone have gone with big pay-offs and pensions paid up.

    Meanwhile, those still in the public sector complain that they have to contribute to THEIR OWN pensions, whilst expecting the rest of us to contribute to them.

    All of us in the private sector have to fund our own pensions. Public sector workers either are incredibly arrogant or they have no idea how well off they are.

    I know of one Welsh uni that was, so I was told, supposed to be firing people in order to save money but it has been taking on all sorts of staff. The public sector is one huge gravy train and Cameron has done nothing - NOTHING - to tackle the excesses.

    Why should anyone in the private sector be forced to pay the pensions of public sector workers when most private sector workers lack their own pensions? It is just not right.

  • Comment number 20.

    All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

  • Comment number 21.

    Too many immigrants is too many - Does not matter whether hard working or not.

    Immigrants should buy their own health insurance & pay for own housing & other expenses as British workers have to do everywhere else on the rest of the planet - no wonder the UK is broke.

    Health Service we receive now is because of money paid by taxpayers 10, 30 and 40 years ago - why should foreigners get it free + education + welfare + pensions + first preference for jobs.

    It's a disgarce & time immigration put on right footing like pay for yourselves - need special NI number disqaulifying for pensions and NHS until have minimum 10 year tax record & good behaviour.

    UK mass immigration is an outrage & is level 1 ethnic cleansing of UK working class as being denied jobs & out-bred by immigrants at our own expense.

  • Comment number 22.

    >18

    He still has his own webpage under andrewcharalambous.co.uk on which he extols the virtues of the traitor Cameron, the EU, the Big Society and of course impending doom from Manmade Climate Change. He has a great endorsement from Greg Barker, the current Tory Minister of State for Energy and Climate Change when he stood for the Tories in Edmonton at last year's General Election "Andrew has been a huge help to me in my front bench role as Shadow Environment Minister. His support on the Conservatives Climate Campaign has been invaluable and he is a constant source of good ideas and encouragement. I am hugely grateful to him."

  • Comment number 23.

    the Poles dug us out of a very big hole in 1940 especially in the battle of Britain unlike the Croats who fought with Hitler! The Serbs and the Poles fought bravely to preserve freedom, some people on here have very short memories.....

  • Comment number 24.

    Huhne was seriously mauled by Jeremy last night...it was beautiful to watch, he usually talks over the next 'accusation' but that escape route was denied by Jeremy....nice one, killer......

  • Comment number 25.

    WESTMINSTER CREATURES (#22)

    UKIP - with the best will in the world - is ANOTHER POLITICAL PARTY. While we have parties who screen for WESTMINSTER CREATURENESS, in candidate-hopefuls, they will ALL have far more in common, across parties, than any INDIVIDUALITY. I guess that is what you are highlighting Bro.

    It really is no surprise that lawyers (as is Charalambous) are seen as good WCs (Chamber Squatters). An MP, is required to "take a brief" and run with it, regardless

  • Comment number 26.

    All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

  • Comment number 27.

    REALLY? (#23)

    I have always assumed the Poles escaped to England to fight for POLISH freedom?

    Memory OK - understanding of human nature? Clearly faulty.

  • Comment number 28.

    All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

  • Comment number 29.

    All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

  • Comment number 30.

    @23 Stevie, no offence intended, but you have a very one-dimensional, and significantly incorrect, view of what happened in Yugoslavia in WWII.

    Mihailovac's Četniks started out as a resistance movement, but later collaborated significantly with the Germans against the Partisans, because their first loyalty was to the Serbian Karadjordevič dynasty.

    Tito himself was a Croat, and the partisans were weak in Serbia, but much stronger in Bosnia, Croatia, Slovenia and Montenegro.

    For complex historical and political reasons, the Croats were divided between wanting rid of the Germans/Italians and wanting rid of the Pan-Serb Royal Yugoslav government. All wanted "freedom", they just differed in their definitions.

    All this and much much more is in Fitzroy Maclean's excellent book "Eastern Approaches" I read it first when I was 15, and last time when I was 54. I will undoubtedly read it again if I don't pop my clogs unexpectedly!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Approaches

  • Comment number 31.

    Aboriginaljim wrote:"The strike is designed to remind the poor and disaffected of Britain that they have lost the class war and are about to be replaced by an unending supply of cheap "labour" (there ARE NO JOBS) from abroad.....and that if they dare complain the likes of Billy Brag and Trevor Phillips will be on hand to man a QT or NN "show" to tell them they are ungrateful racist thugs!"

    Well put. What many won't see is that these people do this so a) they look good and get narcissistic supply and b) to help anarchistically wither away the state, which is what the New Left does just as well as the Conservatives and Lib-Dems. Some of them wake up in late middle age and become depressed. See "comedians".

    This is why they always seem to be the "Looney Left". They are a demented Left (Infantile disorder - Social Democrats) as Lenin said. The Russians hated and purged them as trouble makers. The Chinese did the same. Deng stuck the narcissists into ring-fenced SEZs and made them work for the state. Clever new style labour camps. Many here try to move out of them to the country, when they see the light. Note how the country people tend to hate them as people ("townies")? China protects the rural people from them, aren't they "evil"?.

    Most people here don't see it. They can't see beyond a label even when its entryist. If someone says they're the Queen of Sheeba (or some other
    celebrity) they'll curtsey as it's rude not to!

    We are doomed I fear - as try as one might, it almost never sinks in, except to those who've already seen it.

  • Comment number 32.

    tawse57 wrote:"Why should anyone in the private sector be forced to pay the pensions of public sector workers when most private sector workers lack their own pensions? It is just not right."

    Do you appreciate that those in the Public Sector work as servants to those in the Private Sector? They sometimes give their lives literally to help other people and they generally devote their entire working lives to being honest and helping others. Think of teachers, nurses, police etc. Those in the Private Sector tend to only look after themselves and can pursue wealth whilst those in the Public Sector can't do that. That's what they sacrifice for a pension when they retire.

  • Comment number 33.

    @30 addendum. It has to be said though, that the Ustaše, the Croatian Fascists, were fanatical and extremely unpleasant. As all too often, their "freedom" meant subjection and worse for others.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usta%C5%A1e

  • Comment number 34.

    "Also at record numbers are Neets, young people in England not in education, employment or training. Tonight, we look at the pressures facing young workers."

    This may be the direct consequence of contrived long-term differential fertility through education, education, education, plus too high levels of low-skilled immigration after consumers with the highly ignorant assumption that the property and debt boom would be sustainable despite warnings from many that emitted behaviours (skills) are genetic and not plastic.

    Fix this and one fixes Africa, Pakistan, Bangladesh and most of the rest of the Third World - which is more than a tall order. It's probably impossible

  • Comment number 35.

  • Comment number 36.

  • Comment number 37.

    I'd like to respond to what David Goodhart has just said on Newsnight about Further Education colleges acting as cover for bogus students coming into the UK to get jobs or disappear. I work at one such college in this sector, teaching English as a Foreign Language, and have worked in several others in my area, central southeast England, and this is totally untrue. In order to get students in the first place, we have to ensure we as a college meet stringent conditions. We have to make sure we keep accurate attendance records on all students and report them to the UK Border Agency if they fail to appear for any stipulated period of time. Coming out with uninformed and inaccurate opinions only stokes general ignorance and anti-immigrant prejudice. The other side of the foreign students I teach is, in most cases, the motivation and adventure they display in coming here, learning a foreign language then studying A levels and going onto do degrees. I also teach local British students Spanish who in many cases, in contrast, seem not to have been properly challenged in their secondary schools to think about what they want to do with their lives, nor have the confidence to do so. Why not? Some of these students in my college are doing just that by inspiring local students to think more ambitiously. How to use those who want to come here and pump money into our local economies (host families, supermarkets, fastfood outlets, cinemas, sports centres etc as well as colleges and universities) to benefit the local population in ways other than purely financially, is where people like David Goodhart should really be applying themselves instead of spreading lazy, unhelpful falsehoods.

  • Comment number 38.

    #37 I'm inclined to agree with Mr Goodhart.

    So it's colleges like yours that fill the county I grew up in with students, so that I can't move or drive anywhere freely anymore. And a local youngster trying to find a job and a home doesn't stand a chance.

    Just where do your students get all their money from? They must be exceedingly rich to come here and study, or are they taking all the part time jobs our kids used to do?

    And I'm one of those stupid taxpayers that paid for these colleges etc and the education and welfare system to be set up for these "students" to come in and take advantage of.

    And by the way no one mentioned the House of Lords report that said overall mass immigration had not contributed to the wealth of this country one jot! In fact it's just made England the sixth most crowded country in the world, and probably double that in the South East.

  • Comment number 39.

    "Looking ahead to next week's strikes.."

    if only the unions did not negotiate behind closed doors, I always felt they leave themselves open to the kind of misrepresentations we hear (like the £500m claim, and David Cameron @ Toyota).


    #37. "..people like David Goodhart.." are opportunistic propagandists.

    "Demos is a think-tank focused on power and politics." (from their website)

    see?

  • Comment number 40.

    CHILLING and TELLING (#37)

    If you did not follow this link in brossen99's post, please do so here.

    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/11/24/bbcs-kirby-admission-to-phil-jones-on-impartiality/

  • Comment number 41.

    TRUE STORY FROM THE SQUEEZED MIDDLE THAT WILL MAKE BROWN DOGS BLOOD BOIL.

    My daughter did not get into the school we hoped for, the catchment area for good state schools shrunk along with the economy in our area and we were a nano meter the wrong side of the dividing line.....(story of my life).


    Anyway, she goes to a massive comprehensive now, 1000 plus students from a huge catchment, many of them from poor areas, many of them migrants, one teenager was murdered there afew years ago by a somali migrant in a school corridor.


    She asked me for £7 today to pay for a school cultural trip to a local mosque and a sikh temple, her first trip at high school. At her primary school such trips cost about £2 - 3. £7 is quite a lot for a bus to go 5 miles and back for my daughter.. she could get a cab for that I thought !!

    The difference?

    Well both schools run the same voluntary policy, people on free school meals are not expected to pay for these extra curricular trips and those who are not on free school meals make a 'voluntary contribution' to pay for the coach. In other words we subsidise those who can not afford it. It costs £7 now because so many people in the class are on free meals and the fewer working families need to make up the difference.

    Two things really.

    At the primary school I was happy to pay a bit extra to support those who needed it, but this feels different, I feel my good nature is being exploited. That will resonate with the squeezed middle up and down the country on issues (seemingly) far grander than this.


    Secondly, not once has my daughter been to a catholic church or an anglican church or to a meeting of agnostics or a 'hard science' based trip, but she has been to at least 3 (could be 4) trips to mosques, synogogues and sikh temples, all of which I paid for as an 'extra' and most of the kids found 'boring'... once ok ... and in balance with other trips but three times is hugely disproportionate to other options.

    The crazy thing is, now, in the school she goes to I would say it is close to 40 / 60 native (genetically) british and overseas heritage.

    As a 'native' I find myself in the minority and heavily subsidising trips for my daughter to observe foriegn cultures in a class mostly comprised of people from those 'foreign cultures' . It feels like I am the one in another persons country paying extra so my daughter can learn about the culture of her adopted country... when ... actually... it is my b****** country and I am paying for people from outside to learn about their own culture not the culture of the country they so desperately want to live in !!!!!!!

    Dont get me wrong in the above piece, it is not about racism, it is about feeling persecuted and having my values attacked in my own country. Any racism going on is against me as a middle aged, middle class engineering professional who values integrity and community and balance, is not religious and who pays his taxes, tries to help people when I can.


    Oh by the way.. did I mention I am moving to Australia in January?

    I will let Brown Dog do the rest... he will probably have to take asedative first mind you.

    Over to you BD.

  • Comment number 42.

    A LEVEL POST BUT NOT THE 'PLAYING FIELD' (#41)

    All the more powerful for your restraint Jericoa.

    BUT! Will Australia follow NZ as @ post #35 ?

  • Comment number 43.

    brown dog wrote:

    "Do you appreciate that those in the Public Sector work as servants to those in the Private Sector? They sometimes give their lives literally to help other people and they generally devote their entire working lives to being honest and helping others. Think of teachers, nurses, police etc. Those in the Private Sector tend to only look after themselves and can pursue wealth whilst those in the Public Sector can't do that. That's what they sacrifice for a pension when they retire."

    I can go along with some of your sentiments regarding how some in the public sector can literally give their lives for our benefit. Your smart but something tells me you don't live in the real world; too much academia perhaps.
    Just an observation Brown dog..don't take it wrong. I have lived in the real world too much and didn't get much academia...and I know, it shows.

  • Comment number 44.

    Immigration is the movement of a commodity - labour - and it is therefore simply another facet of globalisation -which itself is the embodiment of an ideology - libertarianism - which is the political manifestation of a religion - christian fundamentalism, which we have come to realise has no scientific basis in reality.

    There is no reason other than "that's the way it is" that causes immigration - like bison or swallows endlessly moving with the seasons, people move in response to the cash nexus - immigration is the key to a better life than they can expect to have according to the accident of their birth.

    However the era of the dogma of free market laissez faire economics is coming to an end, as the internal contradictions in western capitalism mount and the unsustainability of such an anarchic system become clear, as it simply shakes itself to pieces, politicians are helpless to stop it.

    Just as science has removed the theoretical basis for religion by explaining the natural world around us to expose the self-delusion and contradiction of belief in the supernatural, so has the environmental and social reality of an overcrowded world rapidly running out of resources revealed the impossibility of classical liberal economics and the free market system's inability to sustain itself - Adam Smiths' "hidden hand" of the marketplace is just another quasi-religious delusion.

    The only possible replacement for this system must be built on local sustainability - sustainable communities able to pay their way, care for their people, employ the economically active & care for those who can't care for themselves, recycle raw materials, generate their own energy, grow their own food and manufacture their own goods.

    This cannot be at a global level - it can only be at the town, region and national level - so laissez faire capitalism can only be replaced by some form of localism - and that will mean an end to most of the free movement of goods, people and services our economy has become addicted to.

    Once the cash nexus of coming to the UK evaporates, so will the people - and the unsustainability of such a huge population in such a small island will see a mass outflow of people once there is no work, no money and no resources for them.

    If the left to go on defending immigration as a human right and the right go on arguing for the market to determine the level of immigration into the UK, this terrible symmetry can only end in one outcome - a bigger, deeper and more painful crisis when globalisation grinds to a halt and

  • Comment number 45.

    All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

  • Comment number 46.

    All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

  • Comment number 47.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2065624/Net-migration-hits-record-252-000-despite-PMs-vow-slash-numbers.html

    A Labour spokes mouth said:
    "Labour said the figures showed the Government could ‘not be trusted’ to bring immigration under control."

    Well thats a bit rich coming from a Labour party hack..remind us again who opened the borders to everyone with a pulse and a couple of bogus national insurance cards with a desire to learn English at one of our many bogus universities of excellence with benefit entitlement lawyers on hand who specialise in human rights and the loopholes thereof.

    I can't get the maid (lituanian) to defrost the fridgefreezer -she says thats the cooks job. Jaropleck the butler (polish) took the Bentley for its MOT yesterday and has not been seen since, so he ain't available.. Maybe he's gone back home, I wouldn't be too happy about that if that was the case as my Steely Dan collection are in the old motors CD box. So its just gonna be me and the cook (Arizona USA) ..when she gets here.

    You just can't get the staff!

  • Comment number 48.

    After the two guests' helpful remarks last night on how non-British at least 40% of the share owners of shares on OUR stock market are, the Financial Times has had something further to say:

    "The index has become a ragtag of foreign miners, British oil companies operating abroad and banks – something no one would invent if it did not already exist. The Footsie really measures the success of the London Stock Exchange in attracting new large flotations."

    The FTSE UK local index, which includes only companies with 70 per cent or more of their turnover from the UK, has fallen 45 per cent since it started in 1999. The Footsie is down only 13 per cent – more than half of it in the past nine days, its second-longest run of losses."

    So, like so many opaque classes ("households", "NPISH" etc), just what are WE taking as OUR economic indices when we're worrying about OUR nation state's economy (and what is the nation state these days, and who are its citizens who are to pay taxes to support "it"?

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1ce592be-16bd-11e1-bc1d-00144feabdc0.html

  • Comment number 49.

    I tried to engage, however have been accused of an attempt to ''Break the law or condone or encourage unlawful activity. This includes breach of copyright, defamation and contempt of court."

    A broad church. I have asked them to be more specific. I do not take such accusations lightly as it is hard to mount a defence on such a vague basis.

    It can't be the cited comment, which remains up.

    Or the BBC URL and quoted sentence (surely?).

    The rest merely called into question the priorities and capabilities of two police forces and the national broadcaster.

    If criticising the establishment is grounds for censorship, we are indeed on a slippery slope.

    One we're already well down, mind.

  • Comment number 50.

    All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

  • Comment number 51.

    Today's Matt may have to do... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/matt/

    Presuming any satire is permissible in the new world order.

  • Comment number 52.

    #41 Good luck Jericoa, I hope your daughter blossoms in Oz.

    I know all about those school trips you mention, all of mine were taken to the largest sikh temple (Gurdwara) in England, but I don't remember them being taken to Canterbury Cathedral. But I was very fortunate, the great diversity hadn't happened when my children went to school, but my daughter is teaching them now. You would be amazed at the racisim/religiousism displayed amongst our new citizens.

  • Comment number 53.

    All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

  • Comment number 54.

    41.At 00:03 25th Nov 2011, Jericoa wrote:
    TRUE STORY FROM THE SQUEEZED MIDDLE THAT WILL MAKE BROWN DOGS BLOOD BOIL.

    ++
    It made my blood boil also.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    44.At 03:35 25th Nov 2011, richard bunning wrote:
    Immigration is the movement of a commodity - labour - and it is therefore simply another facet of globalisation -which itself is the embodiment of an ideology - libertarianism - which is the political manifestation of a religion - christian fundamentalism,

    ++
    Sorry I vehemently disagree there - it is the result of bad government mass immigration & EU policy on Britain + athesim & decline of regionalised British cultures (mainly in England)

    No other country in the world imports so many immigrants with 9 million + now economically inactive - the true measure of UK unemployment which puts us in the same league as Spain on unemployment.

    Blaming immigration on Christianity instead of bad govenment & politicians is totally sick , IMO and a nasty thing for e.g. any atheist to write.

    ++

    IMO
    NN discussion last night on immigration was another BBC disgrace - two pro immigration foreignisers & one credible but slightly feeble contributor does not make a balanced & non-biased debate on the matter.

    The female contributor said she was very keen on getting young local workers into employment & in so doing revealed her ageism & discrimination against the rest of British workers.

    The other foreigniser was ridiculous & just a very nasty joke.

    NN needs to get e.g. Migrationwatch as the only source of a authoratative, trustworthy, well researched independent opinion - but we know that the BBC avoid Migrationwatch at every opportunity.

    I would also like to here the anonymous opinion of some British war veteran front line soldiers on their return to the UK and get their opinions on the impact of UK immigration on British employment prospects & British families. When these people lay their lives on the line for their country - what kind of country do these people think they represent or are defending? I think I know or have a good idea because I've asked some of them.

    NN - an absolute disgrace - typical BBC biased, libertarian conspiracist, bad, 'Brodie-crat journalism'.

    Too many at the BBC and over-paid & biased - time for some more cuts?

  • Comment number 55.

    All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

  • Comment number 56.

    All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

  • Comment number 57.

    All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

  • Comment number 58.

    All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

  • Comment number 59.

    All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

  • Comment number 60.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 61.

    The word *kill* whats killed it eh mod. Shall I try my usual censorship thingy?

  • Comment number 62.

    #52

    Thanks ecolizzy, funny thing is when I was a kid my daughters age 30 years ago I did get taken to Cantebury Cathedral and York Minster in the state school system.

    I dont ever recall going to a Mosque or similar, the first time I did was when I visited the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem as an independent teenage traveller exploring the world and alternative cultures on my own and in thier correct context.

    I would put up a fight rather than emmigrate, but the squeezed middle is so successfully repressed I barely have time to take a shower some days nevermind fight for what i think is right, on occasion when i have I have simply been drowned in photocopied 'policy documents' which aparently we all voted for i.e. this is a democracy 'shut up' this is what the majority voted for...look its there in black and white .. thou shalt earn 'x' number diversity points in a school year '50' points for a school trip to a mosque etc etc .. brought in by a labour Gov.. voted in by a democracy.. 'stop winging'.

    The only people who do have the time to fight for their interests are rich people, very poor people, retired people, civil servants and professional religious or other lobby interests and those are the only opinions that ever get aired. the rest of us are too busy working our assess off in order to tread water.

    On another note, not sure how DC thinks his proposed investment in infrastructure is going to be realised to help 'growth'. So many mechnical, electrical and civil engineers have left the country now, despite the recession / depression in the west there is actually a shortage of those skills. I have plenty of work, I am not leaving for lack of work, a former collegue of mine already in Australia recently commented that at a kick off meeting for a major complex multi discipline project the only person on the team who was not an expat british guy / gal on a work visa was the project manager.

    The government will struggle to get the schemes off the ground here and to a point where they turn into substantial jobs. They will probably have to outsource the engineering design to Asia to get it done.

    Australia may not be perfect, far from it, i lived there for 2 years before, but i can not bear to see my daughters brought up in this country anymore, british values and culture is far better preserved and protected in Australia than it is here and it is with a heavy heart and a sense of anger with which i go, tempered by optimism at at least being able to escape it and preserve a corner of a foreign field for an ideal which was once England.

  • Comment number 63.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 64.

    er ok then moddy. I'll take out all BBC stuff then..and other bits.

  • Comment number 65.

    All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

  • Comment number 66.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 67.

    kevseywevsey wrote: "I can go along with some of your sentiments regarding how some in the public sector can literally give their lives for our benefit"

    They are not sentiments. It's a fact. That does not mean that public services have deteriorated, but they have been actively "withered" away by anarchists (sometimes from within) and there have been consequences in terms of quality of delivery. My point was just to make sure you are aware of what you may be aiding and abetting as I suspected you were not..

    "Your smart but something tells me you don't live in the real world; too much academia perhaps."

    A false assumption. Stick with the sentences not the imagined author.

    "Just an observation Brown dog..don't take it wrong. I have lived in the real world too much and didn't get much academia...and I know, it shows."

    It doesn't show...but the politics to which I'm pointing is insidious and destructive. Most people seem to have been misled. It would help if others gave this some time, and if they don't agree with the direction which it's taking in this country (and the rest of Europe) - i.e towards the USA system and possibly that of Germany in the 1920s which was when deregulation led to anarchy in the streets and mass loss of assets, people should highlight how and where it's happening and demand change.

    This is all about privatisation and reinforcing self-centredness for short-term gain at the expense of society.

    Jericoa's point about schools (especially in inner cities) is well made but there's something to be said for encouraging kids to be better behaved at a time when they see no boundaries, and that's what trips to any institution of worship may be likely to reinforce. For all the complaints about alien ways, devout Muslims and Orthodox Jews do have a firm set of rules about how people must behave, this creates standards, one of the reasons why there won't be many trips to Christian churches is that many seem to have closed down through lack of demand for moral teaching and the clergy don't have anything to say. One of the propositions which Imams keep repeating is that without their firm family and religious principles, the rate of offending behaviour in Muslim youth as a class would not be lower than that of the White British as it is. The more civilised behaviour of Muslim-British females relative to White-secular-British and Black-Secular British should be obvious and yet we try to secularise them!. We have a problem with White and Black secular British youth, and this is all part of the Libertarian culture which puts pursuit of fame and fortune first so others can make their money (think back to the new class of teenager in the 1950s and who was making money out of that demographic and how). WE have allowed most of these things to happen through embracing the Libertarian society exported by the USA whilst Muslim nations have been resisting this, especially the Shia. Libertarians support Sunni just as those undermining state control once supported Protestantism and its freedoms such as freedom from usury prohibition - see Quaker Non Conformists and banking etc), hence the ascendency of fiat money, debt-slavery and massive wealth differentials and class, We effectively made them feel like terrorists for not wanting to be Libertarians..Which group was behind all that do you think? Which group wants rid of the regulators (Public Sector)?

  • Comment number 68.

    56.At 10:08 25th Nov 2011, Aboriginaljim wrote:
    @54 Don`t cut the BBC Nautonier...reform it ...because it`s our only chance of clawing back some political influence in a society run by American Zionist hypocrites.

    ++

    For what good BBC is to average British citizen, with its foreignising agenda, we might as well also have more of our our media run by American Zionist hypocrites as a being a considerable improvement.

    What BBC needs is some privatisation for competition & better deal for licence payers- but all UK media is run by foreignisers e.g. C4 and ITV have the same ultra PC, human rights obsessionist foreignising rhetoric as the BBC?

  • Comment number 69.

    65.At 11:05 25th Nov 2011, Aboriginaljim wrote:
    Good luck Jericoa....you will probably be surrounded by people whose forbears shared the British Isles with mine.

    ++

    You'll be allright in Oz - and some of my ancestors went there in leg irons around 1850 for so called 'offences' which bankers now repeat on a daily basis - as now expected to get them a fatter bonus this year

  • Comment number 70.

    If I remove the Bankster families names moddy. This is turning into a session of cludo, that great British board game..now made in China with spelling mistakes.
    I'm losing count with how many attempts I've made with this. Ok, I shall cut away and see where we are at with this. I've got all day today ..I'm supervising a freezer defrost session with the aid of an American woman and a little Russian type small person.

  • Comment number 71.

    ******* wrote at **:

    Watch yourself there laddie...the thought police -aided by the *** minions and **** watchers -will be ******* in your door with their standard issue ********* ** *** *** careful.

    Do you remember that moment when Nikolia Chauchesku was on the balcony waving to his people when they ****** ** ***...they eventually **** ***** *** ***
    ***** ***** **'* the *** ******** *** *** *****?!

    Has anybody seen the new *** Ian **** historical documentary on the banksters...talk about sprinkling sugar over a story..!!!!!! does Ian believe all he says or what? Maybe he's just not done his research. He hit on the ********* with kid gloves.. no mention of their machinations on funding wars etc..nothing!
    Who writes this history?

    Heres all we need to know about who is what in the banking world. You've got **** *******, the ********* and the *********. They operate the corporations with the usual funding, get sovereign states to take loans then they pull on the loans and take resources and land as part payment whist putting the **** into never-ending servitude. The banksters fund big Pharma -who **** people and at enormous cost to the tax payer/folk paying through the nose for slow **** treatment.. and start wars to make and sell weapons to keep us at each others throats -very profitable is war, and they employ useful ***** like ** ***** of the Al Gore ***** ******...and by the looks of it, ***** **** as well to sell us the man made global warming nonsense (AKA climate change) and get front men like **** ***** to tell us he's saving lives with his vaccinations AKA planned parenthood AKA sterilization programs for the **** worlders...well someones got to do it!

    Sorry there..nearly went on a rant with that one. Probably didn't make any sense what so ever. I'm having a stressful morning with it all.

    Goodness sake! how long does it take to defrost a freezer?
    And still no sign of the ***** fella with the Bentley and my treasured Steely Dan CDs

    Moddy, I hope the above meets with your approval. Thanking yee:)

  • Comment number 72.

    Thank **** *** that!!!!!

  • Comment number 73.

    richard bunning wrote: "If the left to go on defending immigration as a human right and the right go on arguing for the market to determine the level of immigration into the UK, this terrible symmetry can only end in one outcome - a bigger, deeper and more painful crisis when globalisation grinds to a halt and"

    Much of that looks sound right up to the last paragraph. Look into what you are referring to as "the left" as it has always been Libertarian
    (Social-Democratic) in the West. The USA/ Wall Street wouldn't allow a true left a it had a Cold War against that.

    Managed immigration into the UK began about half a century ago, and was initiated after WWII to replace our projected falling population because of the low birth rate (which I assert comes with Libertarianism and pursuit of individual material advancement). In more recent times, New Labour increased immigration, but it was the Conservatives who paved the way with race discrimination legislation which made it more difficult for the indigenous population to object at the ballot box and

    KEPT LABOUR COSTS LOW WHEN THIS WOULD HAVE RISEN GIVEN THE FALLING AND AGEING POPULATION.

    The last time a population fell like that was in the Middle ages when there was a Black Death. That was when religion crumbled and peasants revolted.

    New Labour was never left wing, it was, and still is right-wing New Left Libertarian. As in the 60s and 70s any hope of left wing socialism in Britain was undermined by Trotskyite-Neocon (right-wing Social Democratic Menshevik) infiltration, which made unions (imagine a 90% Public Sector where everyone worked for each other and the politicians just helped manage this via Civil Servants - the unions would just have been their electorate) look like trouble rather than the democratic voice of the state. Lenin referred to the Social Democrats as Left-Communists (an infantile disorder - he had in his sights Rosa Luxemburg in Germany and the likes of Sylvia Pankhurst in Britain) who were treated as subversives of socialism and in later years anarchists like them were purged as allies of those who wished to bring back naked capitalism. It doesn't matter what these people say they wanted, or even if they really "believed" that they were socialists, it is the outcome of behaviours (policies) which matter not thoughts, and Libertarians tend to be more verbally gifted than spatial, so probably don't see the long term consequences. They are performers not engineers.

    Look thoroughly into the Moscow Trials and what happened before in the 1930s. A lot was going on in that decade and it is still relevant today.

  • Comment number 74.

    nautonier wrote: "For what good BBC is to average British citizen, with its foreignising agenda, we might as well also have more of our our media run by American Zionist hypocrites as a being a considerable improvement."

    Watch some of Richard Desmond's Channel 5 programmes and some of those on Channel 4. Compare those with what you get on BBC TWO, THREE and FOUR. In the end, I guess people get what they deserve.

    One can already see the BBC buckling under fire.

  • Comment number 75.

  • Comment number 76.

    Private and public (sector), the individual and the collective, the immigrant and the native, each needs the other, they are not mutually exclusive.

    They should all mesh in a classic symbiotic relationship.

    PS. This is probably the political balance that young Ed Miliband is searching for.

  • Comment number 77.

    The Climate Change Act Reconsidered
    Public meeting in Parliament Wed 30th Nov 2011,
    1pm - 4pm Committee Room 14
    - through Sammy Wilson MP - An opportunity to discuss the unfortunate consequences accruing from this Act.

    ● Prof Ian Plimer is Australia‘s best-known geologist and author of Heaven and Earth, Global warming: the missing science.
    ● Matt Ridley, author of The Rational Optimist (winner of the Hayek Prize), will speak on the potential for shale gas.
    ● Ruth Lea, currently Economic Adviser and Director of Arbuthnot Banking Group. She was a Governor of the London School of Economics. She will speak on the impact of the Climate Change Act (including the Renewables Directive) on energy prices, manufacturing and business.
    ● Donna Laframboise, journalist and author of The Delinquent Teenager who was mistaken for the world‘s top climate expert - an in depth investigation into the IPCC.
    ● Dr Philip Stott will act as chairman. Philip Stott is a professor emeritus of biogeography at the University of London.

    will NN cover it? "Not on your carbon credit!".

  • Comment number 78.

    usual NN stitch up on the immigration debate. 2 migrants + bbc versus 1 person who says no evidence migration is a good thing for the british people.

    why does the polish education system churn out people with skills while the uk education system churns out the unemployable? if their system is better than we should adopt it? i can hear the shrieks from the uk pc zealots now who think our education for failure that focuses on climate change and multiculturalism rather than teaching skills is the 'best system'.

  • Comment number 79.

    THE WAR YOU DON’T SEE

    http://johnpilger.com/articles/john-pilger-s-latest-film-the-war-you-don-t-see-available-to-watch-online

    John Pilger says in the film: "We journalists... have to be brave enough to defy those who seek our collusion in selling their latest bloody adventure in someone else's country... That means always challenging the official story, however patriotic that story may appear, however seductive and insidious it is. For propaganda relies on us in the media to aim its deceptions not at a far away country but at you at home... In this age of endless imperial war, the lives of countless men, women and children depend on the truth or their blood is on us... Those whose job it is to keep the record straight ought to be the voice of people, not power."

  • Comment number 80.

    In the wake of this "war to end all wars", Edward Bernays, a confidante of President Woodrow Wilson, coined the term "public relations" as a euphemism for propaganda "which was given a bad name in the war". In his book, Propaganda (1928), Bernays described PR as "an invisible government which is the true ruling power in our country" thanks to "the intelligent manipulation of the masses". This was achieved by "false realities" and their adoption by the media. (One of Bernays's early successes was persuading women to smoke in public. By associating smoking with women's liberation, he achieved headlines that lauded cigarettes as "torches of freedom".)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Bernays

  • Comment number 81.

    "The banksters fund big Pharma -who **** people and at enormous cost to the tax payer/folk paying through the nose for slow **** treatment.."

    The banks fund nearly all Private Sector companies, that's how business in the Libertarian world operates - everywhere. Banks lend to businesses which use that as working capital, and then pay the banks interest on the loans from their profits. What drives the system is what consumers buy. That is what is critical here. Purchasing power and goods and services. what are the goods and what are the services? This comprises the economic and the politics. Shareholders and company owners employ their staff to work to maximize profit and market share, not for the good of the consumers per se - they just don't want to LOSE consumers.

    The problem is that consumers have become vehicles for businesses' cash flow, and businesses are driven to deceiving them into parting with their money, much like kids for candy because that is how the system is set up. Intention is not the point, outcome is. Most of those doing it mean no harm. That is why blame is pointless if not unjust.. Meanwhile there are all too many who are far too happy to clobber their own Public Sector (the regulators) which means that in the end, people will get what they deserve sadly - - which will be hell on earth, I fear - to see that look elsewhere in the developing world under Libertarianism..

    Look at the graphic again:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2011/10/total%20debt%20to%20gdp_0.jpg

    Read the UK BLUE BOOK(S). These are very boring and all figures, but the exercise might stimulate some critical questions for you to try to get others to answer. Look up the Bank of England site and see where it lends its money and who is being told they have to embrace austerity measures (Public Sector cuts - only 20% of the workforce works there, mainly teachers and nurses, police, etc). Finally, just think how many people domiciled in the UK actually OWN their own homes when you think about "homeowners". Think how big the Service Sector (and within that the Financial Service Sector and City of London is) as an engineer of our economy. It's not lending which is the problem, or debt, it's who is borrowing, and for which services, and which products, and how that impacts upon quality of life and the birth rate.

    Our indigenous birth rate is evidence of poor "biological fitness"
    (technical term). What does that highlight? Why is this so across ALL Libertarian democracies, East and West?

  • Comment number 82.

    This blogger is going to have some free time soon .. and so, high on the list to view will be http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Century_of_the_Self
    which I got to on Wiki via Edward Bernays.

  • Comment number 83.

    All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

  • Comment number 84.

    All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

  • Comment number 85.

    Immigration

    ONS Quote -
    The latest data on applications to live, work and study in the UK, which can also include people intending to stay in the UK for less than a year, show:

    In the year ending December 2010 the overall number of entry clearance visas issued for work and study was 495,499, less than a one per cent decrease on 496,769 in the year ending December 2009. The latest figures show that in the year ending September 2011 the total number of entry clearance visas issued for work and study was 494,600, a 4 per cent decrease on the year ending September 2010 (516,415).

    In the year ending September 2011 a total of 151,935 work-related visas were issued, a decrease of 6 per cent on 161,029 in the year ending September 2010. The number of visas issued for the purpose of study was 342,665 in the year ending September 2011, a fall of 4 per cent on 355,386 in the year ending September 2010.

     689,000 NINos were allocated to non-UK nationals in the year to June 2011, 14 per cent higher than in the year to June 2010.

    181,000 NINos were allocated to A8 nationals in the year to June 2011, an increase of 15 per cent on the year to June 2010.

    My comments -

    The issuing of new VISA's do seem to be coming down, but is this due to more applications being rejected , I can not tell.

    On the student route , I was quite surprised to see from the times higher education website some of our universities International Mix 2010-2011 figures (based only on the proportion of international staff and students at institutions in the field). 2011-2012 calculations have changed to include international research, so you can not compare like with like.

    I would like to know what proportion of UK students to Non UK students these universities actually have, more complete figures ?
    If these universities are not teaching UK students and are being run as a money making business (collective or whatever), then I can not see why the UK taxpayer should subsidise , directly or indirectly (housing , NHS, PT jobs) , for their clients. In plain English these business should pay proper tax and not be treated in the same way as other universities who do teach UK students.

    Maybe NN would like to dig a little deeper in to this ?

    As for issuing of National Insurance Numbers (NINos) , given international students are and have been allowed to stay in the country after finishing university , there will be some lag before the reduced Visa's for education start to effect the issuing of NINos. So time will see.

    A8 migration or any other EU migration can not be reduced currently without leaving the EU , but given the situation in the Euro zone I would not rule out some kind of restrictions being put in placed, if there are very large movements of people from Euro zone members.

    From what I can tell , the big public arguments have been won, a lot of the interested parties arguments have been defeated , now its up to government to adjust these new established methods to deliver what was promised.

    Good luck and watch your back.

  • Comment number 86.

    nautonier wrote: ".. we might as well also have more of our our media run by American Zionist hypocrites as a being a considerable improvement."

    Israel is probably best seen as the Libertarian (anarchistic - Social
    Democratic) front-line in the Middle East during the Cold War. There are in fact lots of Jewish people (there and elsewhere) who don't like Libertarianism either. It is people (Jewish and non Jewish) who are fanatical Libertarians who abuse "anti-Semitism" (and racism and sexism) as political tools to further their selfish predatory political agenda, not "Jews" or even Zionists, per se. Some of the latter just wanted a homeland.

    The problem is a subtle one. It's all about classes (in the logical mathematical sense - in Natural Language these are nouns) and how they are abused for personal gain. Some groups are easier to abuse because they have more of a certain class of behaviour emitted within them, but that is just a frequencies issue, and it's a low but relative frequencies (probability) issue in the end. It's a "some" issue not an "all" quantifier issue.

  • Comment number 87.

    74.At 11:53 25th Nov 2011, brown-dog wrote:
    nautonier wrote: "For what good BBC is to average British citizen, with its foreignising agenda, we might as well also have more of our our media run by American Zionist hypocrites as a being a considerable improvement."

    Watch some of Richard Desmond's Channel 5 programmes and some of those on Channel 4. Compare those with what you get on BBC TWO, THREE and FOUR. In the end, I guess people get what they deserve.

    One can already see the BBC buckling under fire.
    >

    I don't hear or see or remember anyone anywhere speaking out properly for ordinary British people, on any TV programme, on issues like mass immigration - anywhere in the media? MigrationWatch are, of course, not in the media,

    Moment they do that they're/would be 'toast' & be replaced by a 'foreigniser' - that's why all but the 'foreignisers' are frightened bunnies at the BBC

  • Comment number 88.

    JohnConstable wrote: "Private and public (sector), the individual and the collective, the immigrant and the native, each needs the other, they are not mutually exclusive.

    They should all mesh in a classic symbiotic relationship.

    PS. This is probably the political balance that young Ed Miliband is searching for."

    That is because Miliband is New Left like his dad. This is right-wing Libertarian. Wolves in sheep's clothing. This lot are prone to makeovers and cosmetics. They are excellent performers. Watch "Strictly Come Dancing" and the rehearsals and you'll see some of this excellently done. Some are genetically programmed to perform for the camera and audience - and they will say and do whatever works to that end. It's in their nature.

    Please take the numbers on board. 20% (6 million) of the 30 odd million comprising the workforce, work in the Public Sector. About 600,000 are Civil Servants, most of those are clerical grades below what used to be called Grade 7 (the managerial grade). About half of the other 18% of the Public Sector are in health and education, so nurses, teachers etc. when you take on board the police, immigration, probation, prison officers, fire-services etc just what are you asking for in terms of this "symbiosis"? They spend their lives patching people up, stopping people stealing and killing, trying to stop parents abusing kids. They don't get paid very well, and these days they have to put up with abuse for what they do too. You are not appreciating what is going on I fear.
    Why?

    As an aside, today we see the BBC rolling footage of "activists "going into Syria. Saying what the cost of AK-47s has gone up to given the demand. Transform this to UK a few years ago and imagine Press-TV or RT rolling footage of Islamist "activists" coming into Britain with AK-47s.

    Might there have been some knocks on door/single-taps in Forest Gate?
    Might these activists have been called terrorists rather than "activists"? Devout Muslims are not Libertarians. They are Old Labour types. Family people.

  • Comment number 89.

    86.At 14:22 25th Nov 2011, brown-dog wrote:

    Position is complex - but I do agree that 'libertarianists' do abuse 'classes' for manipulation of their own political agenda & prejudices -& which is what I (and others previously have called) call 'complex bigotry' e.g hatred & fear of the British working class from whence & where many Libertarianists came & ranking their rights & needs lower than those of immigrants.

    Hence, a full blown conspiracy by the media/politicians to avoid having a real debate abouts the costs benefits of recent UK mass immigration as I maintain there is a significant net economic & social cost of immigration to British taxpayer & British worker, their faimiles & children.

    Major beneficiaries of UK mass immigration are many businesses which are evading the cost of training British people by using cheap foreign labour & then sitting on piles of cash that they refuse to invest in British industry - at the same time calling British workers names and making them out to be second class citizens in their own country.

    Major companies are leveraging immigration to increase their profits - again at the expense of British families & workers. Govt stepped in today with a £1 billion in taxpayer monies to try and employ ? workers - I expect many of them will be foreign students who have over-stayed their visas - but that money should have been paid by the companies themselves & taken from their 'super profits' as a result of their exploitation of the UK immigration mess.

    IMO, This is bad, evil & disgusting & must to be stopped.

  • Comment number 90.

    The so-called most dangerous place in Europe, Dagestan, boasts the unexpected accolade of employing Samuel Eto'o -

    ++

    So what - Who cares? Haven't we got more pressing problems in the UK?

  • Comment number 91.

    jauntycyclist wrote: "why does the polish education system churn out people with skills while the uk education system churns out the unemployable? if their system is better than we should adopt it? i can hear the shrieks from the uk pc zealots now who think our education for failure that focuses on climate change and multiculturalism rather than teaching skills is the 'best system'"

    You keep asking questions even though the explanation has been provided.
    Why?

    Look at the ethnic composition of (cold) Poland and bear in mind it was a socialist nation a little over a generation ago until the Thatcher loving Trots wrecked it. Then tell us why you have still not taken on board that one can only teach and train those who genetically emit the appropriate behaviours (actions, skills, call them what you like) in the first place. Look at our place in the international league tables since we began educating half the population and importing millions, and look at the ever increasing rise in SEN in our schools.

    Now, it's very nice to think sweet thoughts that one could just wave magic teaching dust in classrooms (i.e employ "good" teachers) and thus pour abilities into receptive little heads/bodies, but that is NOT how it works, any more than talking to crops ever makes them increase their yields. We can't talk people into being good musicians, athletes etc either. One is "born that way". That is life. The numbers matter.

    Kind advice: Grow up. Stop assuming fairy tales are true and reasoning from those in what you say. Instead, start from realistic (true as far as we know) assumptions and your reasoning will then be fine. Persisting with false beliefs and making assertions or asking questions based upon those (however popular) in the face of massive refuting evidence, is irrational and pointless even if it's very popular (so is Harry Potter).

    If we could do the things you wished for, it would be done in Africa and South Asia, but it isn't and it can't be. Take a cue from those who have tried, not the people who peddle Harry Potter tales because they think it reads well. Most of our politicians are a disgrace. I'm not the only one to think so

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9647000/9647571.stm

  • Comment number 92.

    92 haha

    the evidence is the polish student is better trained. That migrants are taking new jobs.

    name calling doesn't change the facts.

    the uk is failing to employ its own people yet there are people saying 'its what we planned' so its a 'success'?

    so who has the false beliefs? those who say our model is better or those who say there are better models that have a proven success rate. it is rational to adopt a better model and irrational to defend a failing one. Unless one has a vested interest in perpetuating failing models?

  • Comment number 93.

    Kind advice : This post is dedicated to everyone who has felt and continues to feel the tragedy of intolerance.

    (After Irène Némirovsky).

  • Comment number 94.

    IPCC cooking the books again? so what happened to the 'settled science'?

    can we have our carbon tax back? who do we sue for misselling?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15858603

  • Comment number 95.

    Well it doesn't help paying 50 million pound per day to the EU

  • Comment number 96.

    Aboriginaljim wrote: "If blame is pointless Mr Dog how will telling the public they are getting their just deserts improve matters?"

    Because it may help some people to disengage from "The Credit Assignment Problem" and better understand the nature of behaviour and the illusion of "mind" and all its trappings.

    "My hunch is that we need to employ something along the lines of a Chinese face saving operation ....where the idea is put about that 2008 was all a huge mistake and the result of the internet creating transactions of such speed and complexity that no human being was able to control it."

    No doubt technology has played and still is playing a major role in all this, but that's part of the revolutionary erosion of mentalism and its consequences. "Face" is a problem of narcissism (arrested development).

    It is never a good idea to take one's policy cues from those with arrested development. what is needed is more regulation not less.

    Regulation and technology are one and t he same. What we are seeing is a slow decline in our ability to sustain technology through a dysgenic change in the birth rate.

    We have got to come to terms with the nature of human diversity, how it changes through differential fertility (a highly technical term) and how we have mismanaged it. These are technocratic matters.

    We actually have some EU Human Rights Articles which pretty much ensure we will fail. Look up Steve Jones (genetics) and David Coleman (demography) in the broadsheets in recent years..

  • Comment number 97.

    92.At 15:22 25th Nov 2011, jauntycyclist wrote:
    92 haha

    the evidence is the polish student is better trained.
    ++

    An what & where is the evidence for that?

  • Comment number 98.

    Kind advice (2):

    In the UK - the 'tragedy of intolerance' is the intolerance of some to the British working class & those otherwise less fortunate than themselves.

  • Comment number 99.

    Aboriginaljim wrote: "@81...OK let`s fast forward to the Dog Days of a growing indigenous birth rate....we are all breeding with gusto....and what now?"

    You have to look into what differential fertility is and you have not done so. There's a very long history to this. You could dip in at the middle and read what Herrnstein and Murray wrote on it in 1994, but you really need to go way back to the 1920s and 1930s and follow it through to see what is happening today. This gave us quantitative genetics and demography. If one doesn't manage a population (stock), and leave it all to market-forces, the inevitable happens. It's like leaving farming to the elements. The only reason we didn't have a Malthusian (food) disaster long ago is because we DIDN'T leave it to market-forces, we turned to entropy fighting work, i.e technology. If we don't do the same with people we'll be overrun by more people who need services than there are those willing and able to provide them.

    Were you really a Social Worker or is that just a rhetorical device? I ask, because it is one thing to asset authority and it is another to do so anonymously. Such assertions are best left out in anonymous blogs as it is the ad hominem. Social worker qualifications have been massively devalued in recent decades. Much the same has happened in Probation.

    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199798/cmselect/cmhaff/486/8012707.htm

    When you see "Marxist", think right-wing, Social-Democratic (infantile-disordered) Libertarians, not Stalinists. The latter, it may surprise some to learn, are just bog standard Civil Servants which one will find all over the world if you think about it - they as Civil servants try to keep the state running, even when "Conservatives", Liberal-Democrats and New left "Labour" are trying to make it wither away in favour of markets. It is much easier to be a politicians if you can explain everything in terms of anarchistic markets. What work does one have to do other than PR i.e perform?

    Brave New World is not too far from what should and does happen, it's just that novelists like to dramatise. Julian Huxley (the brother of Aldous) was a founder of UNESCO, like Keynes and many others he was a eugenicist as are most people if you look into who they mate with. Look up modern China and eugenics.

  • Comment number 100.

    I read somewhere that most people are attracted to and consequently mate with ... people who look like them.

    I was a bit skeptical at first but the more I looked at couples, the more I could see the physical similarities in most cases.

    Now't as queer as folk, eh?

 

Page 1 of 2

BBC © 2014 The BBC is not responsible for the content of external sites. Read more.

This page is best viewed in an up-to-date web browser with style sheets (CSS) enabled. While you will be able to view the content of this page in your current browser, you will not be able to get the full visual experience. Please consider upgrading your browser software or enabling style sheets (CSS) if you are able to do so.