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Friday 4 November 2011

Verity Murphy | 12:25 UK time, Friday, 4 November 2011

Manoeuvres are continuing in Greece between the government, some of its own MPs and the opposition over how to tackle the country's economic crisis - moves which could have major repercussions for the eurozone economy.

Prime Minister George Papandreou needs to secure enough votes to survive a vote of confidence later in the day. Mark Urban is in Athens for the crunch vote and will be bringing us the latest on tonight's programme.

In Cannes G20 leaders have ended their summit with a plan to boost growth and rebalance the global economy, but so far have given no details. Paul Mason is there and should enlighten us tonight.

And in the studio Emily will be joined by Peter Altmaier chief whip of Angela Merkel's ruling party and Baroness Vadera.

Comments

  • Comment number 1.

    CLEARLY THE GREEKS ALSO KEEP 'GETTING THEMSELVES ANOTHER ONE'

    A telling vox pop on the Radio 4, 1.00 pm news. It seems the Greeks have the same view of politicians - across the piste - as we do.

    Is it not obvious that, in democracies, power has corrupted absolutely, with passage of time? The problem is not monetary disorder, but the disordered mind, so frequently found in the cranium of those who seek positions of power - Despot or Davepot.

    We - MANKIND - can't do 'big' successfully, yet men worship 'big', and men (+WoeMen) are in power. Might be a clue to salvation there . . .

    MALE POLITICS: THE ART OF SELF-DECEPTION, WRAPPED IN THE CRAFT OF DECEIVING OTHERS FOR 'THEIR OWN GOOD'.

  • Comment number 2.

    Position is becoming clearer - Germany & France need to remove their obstacle to ECB printing trillions of Euros & devalue Euro so that 'equalisation' of 'growth', investment, living standards, money supply, debts, across Eurozone.

    Germany & France do not like this & will delay & obfusticate like Greece - but if they fail to do this - the Eurozone & EU will be history within 12-18 months if not much sooner.

    Being in the Eurozone does not mean France/Germany/Benelux being 'top dogs' while other parts of Eurozone struggle finding growth - a successful Eurozone must have 'equalisation' of 'participation', all resources, knowledge, commitment, liabilities.

    'Equalisation' will be a huge shock to some & a windfall to others - but without it the European project is finished & the end is firmly now in 'sight'.

  • Comment number 3.

    'Paul will be taking us through what has is in the agreement agreed, and what has been left out.'

    Speaking of what has been left out...

    Happens a lot. Not always by accident. That's why it's best to read around.

  • Comment number 4.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karolos_Papoulias

    A founding member of PASOK. In a recent article on the protests in the Northern city of Thessalionki:

    "In Thessaloniki, the protesters blocked the parade route, forcing police to intervene and protect the officials' stand until it was evacuated. After waiting in the parade stand for about 30 minutes, Papoulias left, but not before launching a broadside against the protesters.

    "When I was 15, I fought against Nazism and the German occupiers. Who are they calling me a traitor? Shame on them," Papoulias told reporters before leaving the parade stand. Papoulias, 82, joined the Greek resistance in 1944, during the last months of the three-year German occupation of Greece."

    Note the last line, and his age.

    "The protesters included leftists, anarchists, neo-Nazis, people fed up with the government's austerity policies, and fans of the local soccer club Iraklis, which was pushed out of the top division because of financial irregularities.

    Asked if the protesters were justified, given the government's biting austerity measures and Greece's deep recession, Papoulias said the demonstrators represented "a small minority."

    "The great mass of the people accept all these austerity measures that hit the weakest because they hope for a better day, when we will overcome the crisis and clean our house," Papoulias said."

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/28/greek-protests-thessaloniki_n_1063489.html

    Just think about Albania's earlier history with China during the Sino-Soviet split.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_People%27s_Republic_of_Albania#Albania_and_China

    The Libertarian democracies have, since WWII, striven to keep real socialism out of Greece for understandable reasons. What better way to do that than to seduce its youth with a pseudo-socialist party, the PASOK with the incumbent PM the President of the "Socialist"
    International.

    Think of the New left Tony Blair as a "socialist" and you get the picture. Remember, politicians are great performers. Actors are in a profession which peddles untruths for a living, many of them have Identity Disorders.

  • Comment number 5.

    Hopefully. the debate can move on from WW2 onto what the Eurozone may or may not look like in, say, 1 year & 3 years time - if indeed there is still an 'EU' at that time?

    Shockwaves now heading for the EU as ECB gets ready to print Euros by the truck load!

  • Comment number 6.

    Some history and context:

    "In March 2004, while PASOK was still in government, Eurostat refused to validate the fiscal data transmitted by the Greek government and asked for a revision, as it had done previously -twice- in 2002, then resulting in a revision which changed the government balance from a surplus to a deficit.

    A worse blow came in May 2004, when the European Commission harshly accused Greece of "imprudent" and "sloppy" fiscal policies, pointing out that since Greek economic growth had been an annual 4% in 2000–2003, a declining fiscal position could only be the result of government mismanagement, including concerns by the EU regarding the 103% public debt to GDP ratio which Karamanlis inherited from the previous PASOK regime. With this report, the Commission effectively called into question the quality of Greek economic data, as the Eurostat had done in March.

    The New Democracy government under Karamanlis, elected on April of that year, decided to conduct a Financial Audit of the Greek economy, before sending revised data to Eurostat. The audit concluded that the PASOK administration and prime minister Costas Simitis had falsified Greece's macroeconomic statistics, on the basis of which the European institutions accepted Greece to join the Eurozone. PASOK contested the accusations and claimed that 2006 Eurostat changes to the system of defense expenditure calculation legitimized the practices of the Costas Simitis government. New Democracy responded that the defense expenditures covered by those changes constituted only a small part of much more substantial expenditures that were fraudulently concealed by the previous PASOK government."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kostas_Karamanlis#Financial_audit_of_2004

    It's not as if EuroStat didn't know there were problems. The same was true over the credit problems in UK back in 2003. Not that it made any difference. These days the reprobates just say "sorry" and carry on as one might expect! This is what happens when people are reluctant to punish and just want to praise and be nice (think hippies in suits)...

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/3104839.stm
    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200304/cmselect/cmtreasy/125/3101603.htm

  • Comment number 7.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/8866022/Iran-the-damning-nuclear-evidence.html

    Note

    1) That the second author is from Jerusalem.
    2) How quickly they move from talking about facts to talking about beliefs and what those beliefs then allegedly justify. They don't.

    It's this slip or "sleight of mind" which causes so much trouble EVERYWHERE these days as reasons or intentions are not causes or valid grounds for logical inference. That may be hard for many to accept, but that so many people behave this way these days does not make it valid or acceptable, it just makes it endemic irrationality. What matters is evidence. Physical evidence. The NPT is voluntary. If Israel or USA wants to attack a country which it believes may be developing nuclear weapons or vehicles to deliver them, why does it not attack Israel or any of the other nations with WMDs which have not signed the NPT? All this behaviour does is encourage others states NOT to sign the NPT!

    Here is a window into tribal differences.

    http://www.nature.com/news/2011/111102/full/479025a.html

    C P Snow 'labelled' it "Two Cultures". It has long been at the core of Governance. For Snow, it was the Civil Service. It has Specialists and it has Generalists.

    Which tribe tends to manage on behalf of the Libertarian democracies?
    Which manages in the People's Republic of China (and before that, GOSPLAN)?

    One has a system, all else follows.

  • Comment number 8.

    Gosh, speaking of what can also be 'inserted'...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2011/11/apology_for_andrew_tyrie.html

    Which is why such as this, for me, now, is more a starting point:

    'will be bringing us the latest..'

    The question being, the 'latest' what, through whose filter?

    Not sure that's optimal in a most trusted news outlet.

  • Comment number 9.

    "NOT SO SUPER MARIO (Draghi - the new ECB boss)

    The half-life of eurozone pseudo-solutions has been steadily dropping over the past two years. .... At this point it seems to be a matter of a few hours. .... The question is whether Europe is capable of doing anything real."

    http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/04/not-so-super-mario/

    As for the Greeks getting themselves "another one" (Barrie @1): their electoral system of "reinforced proportionality" guarantees the largest political party an absolute majority in parliament, even if a significant majority of the electorate are opposed to them. Thus, as in the UK, parties have aimed to capture the state and take the spoils of victory, rather than try to work together for the common good.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Greece#Electoral_law

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoils_system

  • Comment number 10.

    Like everything in UK government policy sponsored by the stock market parasites via university boffins they all think like Professor Marcos in the Ealing comedy The Lady-killers. " Its OK to steal sixty thousand quid in an armed robbery because its only a farthing on all the policies "

  • Comment number 11.

    Should have put #10 in reply to Mr Dog

  • Comment number 12.

    If only Pinocchio's nose had been cut for timber then we could have built " Jerusalem " in England's green and pleasant land. ( not the virtual west bank financial apartheid based segregation of the population we now appear to be heading for )

  • Comment number 13.

    Perhaps G20 leading politicians appeasing the stock market parasites ( as they currently would appear to be doing ) is a bit like being nice to a crocodile and hoping that it will eat you last. There would appear to be something of a race going on to avoid the jaws, the Greek situation could be likened to the crocodile nibbling at the toes. How long will it be before the stock market parasites claim long legged Italy, the politicians might just as well ( like in Monty Python practice ) all stand in the tea chest and sing Jerusalem. Yeah and the Greek people denied true democracy might just not stand by and watch their entire economy asset stripped, it would appear that they have spending plans for a massive solar electric project, the revenue from which the Germans are now demanding according to Ch4 News. It probably also means loads of small farmers thrown off their land, and its going to look really good sacking and or cutting the wages then using public investment to pay a foreign country. I'm surprised that the British people not waking up to the same principle already going on here in the UK with wind farms, any alleged green jobs are always the most expensive in history per man employed.

  • Comment number 14.

  • Comment number 15.

    Check out this guy !

    http://www.moneymyths.org.uk/

  • Comment number 16.

    POLITICIAN SUE THYSELF (#14)

    Hi Lizzy. Suing the EU puts me in mind of the mantra: "It is right to smack a child that runs into a busy road." I always pipe up: "No - you should smack yourself, for letting it."

    We should be suing 'Judgement John' (Major) for signing up to Maastricht and all the Westminster Creatures who, thereafter, failed to right that wrong; indeed, they compounded it.

    DISMANTLE THE EU (Oh - it's dismantling itself!)

  • Comment number 17.

    DID HE SEE IT COMING BRO? (#15)

    That would seem to be the 'guru test'.

  • Comment number 18.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-15275853

    'Matt Whale from Hull explained the five demands of those taking part in a march'

    Nowt like a good demand. Or five.

    Beyond asking this potential credit to any employer's roster what his qualifications were actually in that could be of such unappreciated value, I was also intrigued at the art direction of the background horde.

    One can see why they are so... 'angry'.

    Maybe head to Salford. The public sector situation seems more clement there.

  • Comment number 19.

    Break ranks with the EU and the speculator wolves will get you - Sterling crisis, economic meltdown - stay in the EU and it means surrendering more and more control to German/French domination.

    There is no way out and I'd argue no way to fix this mess without a very major default by a whole series of countries, banks and a tidal wave of personal insolvencies.

    This is necessary to destroy the vast mountains of capital created by excessive profits which cannot be serviced by the underlying real economy.

    The only viable future has to be a sustainable economy built on countries being self-sufficient - globalised laissez faire free trade has led us here and it has to end.

    The prospect of the Chinese Communist Party bailing EU countries out with money from their systematically rigged exchange rate trading which has hollowed out manufacturing in the west is quite frankly ridiculous. The debt cannot be repaid - the debtor nations cannot squeeze their people hard enough to do it - austerity doesn't work.

  • Comment number 20.

    VOTE FOR GUY FAWKES!!!
    The only man to enter Parliament with honest intentions.
    (........unless he was a state agent-provocateur of course.)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnPvbfogeSI

    Is this what your regular clarion call means Barrie?

    Happy November 5th everyone!!! ;-D

  • Comment number 21.

    "And in the studio Emily will be joined by Peter Altmaier chief whip of Angela Merkel's ruling party"

    The guy just wouldn't answer the questions - he knew where the questions were leading.

    It is becoming clearer, IMO, that EU 'equalisation' of living standards, growth & resources between the wealthy Eurozone countries & poorer partner members is going to be very expensive & painful for countries like Germany.

    This is the realisation of what the EU represents if it is to succeed - sharing, co-operation to the point of PERVERSITY & beyond, equalisation - and it is going to be very painful for some like Germany.

    Greece is nothing - this is just the start of what the Germans will have to do to in order to hold the Eurozone together - £200 + bn euros is 'peanuts' to what the Germans are going to have to pay in order to 'equalise' - this is why the Eurozone will probably not exist or look rather dissimilar in only 1 - 2 years time?

    I musn't gloat too much in terms of removing the 'EU straightjacket'- but the Euro/Eurozone is about to 'crash'!

    The question then, is, - What does 'crash' really mean here?

  • Comment number 22.

    YOU MIGHT SAY THAT SASHA - I COULD NOT POSSIBLY COMMENT (#20)

    Life has taught me that THE DRIVEN SHALL INHERIT THE EARTH. And, as if that were not problem enough, 'in and of itself, going forward' (sorry, couldn't resist) 'compound schooling' over many generations, coupled with 'compound de-mothering' over the last few, has damaged the current cohort (:o) to a degree of 'excellence', that Screwtape can only admire.

    England is buggered. (Check the dictionary Blogdog.)

    Britain is not far behind. America an obscenity - rapidly becoming an Obamity - and the rest can't wait to follow, into folly. In consequence, the output of profoundly damaged psyches cannot but increase exponentially. There will be no shortage of Hitlers, Pol Pots, George Bushes and Tony Blairs, as we go global, ALL WANTING TO BE KING OF THE WORLD. They will keep any last shred of 'The Feminine' at bay (Gadaffi-like) with an army of WoeMen (who despise Woman and envy men).

    It is not Guy Fawkes we must look to, but The End of Days. Nothing less will serve, even if 'save' is out of the question - as I suspect it is.

    Ill get me tambourine.

  • Comment number 23.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-15606278

    I can't help speculating that the fatal fires in this case were directly caused by red to white hot catalytic converters, but no police investigation is ever going to consider that since such technology is a green sacred cow. Its not the first time that such an accident has occurred, there was a similar big one on the M42 south of Birmingham about ten years ago again with fires. Neither this or the Birmingham crash were as big as many in the past ( 70s & 80s ) but the fires are a sinister development since the introduction of catalytic converters ?

  • Comment number 24.

    I NOTED THE SAME CORRELATION BRO (#23)

    At motorway speeds, the converter temperature will, I would guess, instantly ignite Diesel as well as petrol.

    Mind you, un-guarded 'NAKED IGNITION SOURCES' (cigarettes) in petrol fuelled cars, is of no account to our government, so . . .

    Factory regulations prohibit smoking round flammables (and factories don't hurtle about with numpties at the wheel).

    AGE OF PERVERSITY?

  • Comment number 25.

    #24 barrie

    Have you ever seen that film archive footage of 1920s motor racing pit stops where it shows the guy clearly smoking a fag whilst filling the car up with petrol from a five gallon drum pouring it into a funnel in the filler cap. If fags were such a big risk there would have been more fires in big accidents in the 60 / 70s / 80s when a far greater proportion of the population used to smoke !

  • Comment number 26.

    FAIR POINT BRO (#25)

    Nuff sed

  • Comment number 27.

    A FURTHER THOUGHT (#25)

    Jack the speed up to 80/90 and ruptured fuel tanks will increase dispropotionately not to mention converter temperature. I can see a fracas coming this way.

  • Comment number 28.

    #27 barrie

    THE SPEED Probably won't make any difference, wagons were a lot faster until the 1990s speed limiters took this down to the current 56 Mph, by the sound of the live reports last night it was the wagon's which were on fire.

  • Comment number 29.

    A TOUCH DEFENSIVE THERE BRO (:o)

    I was thinking of the cars! (Fuel tank at the back.) But again your point is taken.

  • Comment number 30.

    Its probably the case that HGV speed limiters have increased the chances of a big accident like this since with the speed limiters wagons tend to get bunched up, whilst at the same time their drivers are likely to lose concentration. All you need is some numptie in a car to pull out into the fast lane and try to creep past thinking speed kills and there is an increased chance of someone ploughing into it coming down the fast lane at legal 79. This scenario looks likely since it was just after an entry point, some idiot joining the motorway at that point perhaps cut through a pack of bunched HGV in lanes 1 and 2 and straight into the path of someone coming down the fast lane without warning ?

    Our motorways would probably be a lot safer if the 56 Mph HGV speed limiter ( EU directive ) was permanently scrapped !

  • Comment number 31.

    #30 brossen are you serious that the speed limit for a lorry is 56mph? I'm not joking I don't know.

    But it doesn't happen around here, I live near all the main routes to Dover and Folkestone, they certainly go a lot faster than 56mph, they've overtaken me doing 70!

  • Comment number 32.

  • Comment number 33.

    Oh I forgot I think you make an excellent point about the catalytic converters starting the fires.

  • Comment number 34.

    #31 ecolizzy

    I'm pretty certain that the EU speed limiter directive still stands, its probable that your car speedo is reading fast by at least 10%, mine is it alleges that all wagons are doing full 60 at least, also reads fast according to those SPID things as well. That is not to say that many may have not overridden or disabled said limiter between annual tests but the UK HGV speed limit on motorways remains 60, which in practice 10% + 2 margin = 68, the speedo's fitted to HGV are really accurate in comparison to most cars.

  • Comment number 35.

    If one looks back at the Clinton-Blair "era of "international socialism"
    (deregulation) it's easy to see how some were seduced into believing that thinking that it was a genuine programme to spread wealth and not concentrate it. By extending loans to those who would otherwise never be able to afford expensive goods (like houses and cars( and passing on the risk on to others who could afford to buy securities (alas, often those abroad who had no idea of the toxic MBS/CDO composition because of suspect credit ratings) all would come right through education, education, education.

    But what was the fatal flaw in the logic?

    The fatal flaw was that education does not raise cognitive ability because this is genetic, and in fact, education serves to reduces mean population ability through delaying parenthood and thus lowering the birth amongst the more able. even many of the academics never saw that, and they did so because there were those who punished their colleagues if they dared point it out. This had a long history.

  • Comment number 36.

    Catholicism once WAS Christianity, i.e before protestors changed the status quo. For years we have celebrated Bonfire Night to remind us of a person who tried to re-regulate the system. Much the same has been done via Holocaust Remembrance Day. But in encouraging everyone to be anti-Nazi have we encouraged pro-bankerism? By being anti-Catholic have we become pro-Satan?

    Catholics proscribed usury, and protestors deregulated the faith making some people very wealthy at the expense of those who actually kept the faith i(.e had consciences or could feel guilt).

    Catholics saw the protestors as agents of Satan, so they tried to get them to repent, and when that failed, they burned them at the stake.as heretics or subversives. Some converted, others fled to Holland (where they began making a lot of noise about Human Rights and Enlightenment whilst also launching what is now known as the stick market. Others went to Greece (Thessaloniki).

    The rest of course is history repeating itself largely because most people never learn.

    http://www.intjewishlawyers.org/main/files/Special%20Issue%20Salonika%20spring1999.pdf

  • Comment number 37.

  • Comment number 38.

    Sunday morning, and the MSM is truly excelling again.

    As the M5 tragedy embers still glow, & no one still has a clue what happened, 'calls for' from any half wit activist banwagon jumpers based on their pet obsessions are what counts as 'news'.

    Maybe it was the lack of street lighting on the stretch? Equally speculative I know. But oddly not an option I've heard, as that may not 'suit'.

    I can only presume that when you enter this 'profession', along with the many new ones that serve it, any hint of integrity is now surgically removed.

  • Comment number 39.

    Given that Susan Watts will be covering the brain and mental illness next week, I offer the following informed, and concerned observation, namely that much that we see celebrated on television today is in fact "Care In The Community", i.e psychiatric disorder. This is primarily (hypo-manic) affective (mood) disorders and Identity (aka Personality) Disorders. The latter is largely Axis II Cluster B with an emphasis on NPD. Television has become a magnet for disturbed people, and we must stop encouraging this..

    The "edgyness" that we see, the hyperbole, and excessive craving and whipped up praise for performance (which often warrants none of the kind), has increased to an alarming extent in recent years. That many of the people involved have been, and continue to be, treated (with medication) for mood and comorbid disorders (and openly admit to this, often writing articles or books about it) is telling and worrying. Such behaviour is not to be aspired to. Doing so is in fact irresponsible and contrary to a duty of care towards the young.

  • Comment number 40.

    I PRESUME JUSTINE GREENING HAS HUGE RELEVANT EXPERIENCE JUNKK (#38)

    Why else would Dave have appointed her? Not as a feudal reward - surely?

    Nuff sed

    In passing: while driving an Austin Seven in the late 50s, I went from clear air into a dense fog band, while on a blind bend. The effect is terrifying and disorientating. The fog was localised - rolling off a playing field.

  • Comment number 41.

    '40. At 11:32 6th Nov 2011, barriesingleton -
    I PRESUME JUSTINE GREENING HAS HUGE RELEVANT EXPERIENCE JUNKK (#38)


    Well, she, and anyone prepared to don a lapel mic to pontificate on a Sunday morning seems to magically become 'expert' simply by talking on air. No matter how thin it's from.

    All complemented by the skill of the person asking questions. This skill no longer being 'what happened' first, but a slew of opinions and feelings and challenges and demands based on what may, or may not.

    I too have been caught out by a surprise change to the road visibility, ironically cresting a hill on a lovely evening heading home to get the full glare of the sun below the visor that placed me in a 70mph ton of metal that briefly was guided, if as quickly as I could safely to a very slow rate, by my last guess on where all around me was, as the windscreen was essentially opaque. My obsessive commitment to generous stopping distances (a factor seldom acknowledged in such cases, as that would rather demand a return to police assessed dangerous driving by humans vs. money-generating robot snapshots at specific locales most simply comply with in breach before and after) served me well in this case.

    I always wondered if I'd have had any slack caught on this basis, given the default 'those who hit the rear are not in the clear' adopted by authorities or insurers.

    On this case here's hoping we see the 24/7 opinion machine stilled until the first cause is established, and then work to who may have run into trouble with any degree or mitigation. Grieving mothers who lost children to those who can't grasp limits or control vehicles in urban areas seem odd folk to turn to on motorway issues.

    Sometimes an accident is still just that, but our blame culture, especially the one with vested interest cheerleaders, cannot tolerate this any more.

  • Comment number 42.

    #39 brown-dog

    NPD - Some just can't resist being the centre of attention

    Greek MP who wants Papandreou to quit says 'I haven't slept for days. This is the point of no return.'
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/8872391/Greek-MP-who-wants-Papandreou-to-quit-says-I-havent-slept-for-days.-This-is-the-point-of-no-return..html

    “Like many MPs, she said the past few days had been "the most difficult" of her political career. "It's been huge tension. And everybody's been trying to figure out what's going on," she said.

    "A lot of confusion, and a huge sense of responsibility. Exhaustion I haven't slept for days." Miss Kaili, 33, was one of the politicians who forced Mr Papandreou into trying to form the coalition government, by announcing that she could no longer support him and making PASOK's enfeebled political majority barely tenable. "The political system has reached the point of no return. It's not working," she said. But, like many Greeks, she blames the EU for allowing their government to get so badly into debt.”


    This Woman Just Helped Preserve The Global Capitalist System
    http://www.businessinsider.com/eva-kaili-2011-11


    And guess what? …she’s from Thessolonika…maybe just a coincidence!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eva_Kaili

  • Comment number 43.

  • Comment number 44.

    >43

    Icke sets off quite sensible but moves on to the reptile theory as time goes by, he has to or the Corporate Nazi's would kill him, the exact same principle applies to Alex Jones letting him expand and make a complete fool of himself.

  • Comment number 45.

    BLUE BLOOD AND CHILD SACRIFICE (#44)

    The great thing about Icke is you can do other stuff while listening. Just looked up the 'implanted' meaning of 'blue blood' - very plausible. (They mess with your mind.)

    The ability of HomSap (The Ape Confused by Language) to become a consummate monster, is unlimited. Any alien, with half a brain, would not dally on the third rock. QED

  • Comment number 46.

  • Comment number 47.

    JunkkMale wrote: "Sometimes an accident is still just that, but our blame culture, especially the one with vested interest cheerleaders, cannot tolerate this any more."

    Yes.

    Blame really IS just the other side of our credit culture (in both senses of the term). How we attribute value lies at the root of most of our problems and pseudo-solutions.

    What is central here is technically known as The Credit Assignment Problem. That demands some time and careful analysis if one is not to end up in a mess of empty words as elsewhere, professionals are busy engineering.

    Too many think this a non problem, or "psychological" when law is about evidence, contingencies (A AND NOT B) and accountability, rules of how to act in a sense not clearly understood by most. This is what most of modern politics and economics is about, and it is not a democratic i.e populist issue but a technocratic one where most do NOT have a say because they are not aware of what matters (think of how a truck, train or plane operates and how engineers try to design much human behavioural variation out.. It would be nice to say that more of us need to understand that behaviour is lawful in the scientific sense, and that we need to better manage it, i.e accept that it is engineered, whether we "know", "like" or "believe" this or not, but the opposite seems to be happening as we dumb down.

  • Comment number 48.

    brossen99 wrote: "Icke sets off quite sensible but moves on to the reptile theory as time goes by, he has to or the Corporate Nazi's would kill him, the exact same principle applies to Alex Jones letting him expand and make a complete fool of himself."

    There are lots of people out here who "mis-describe" or "mis-classify"
    (to put it nicely) what are basically higher prevalence phenotypes in some groups compared to others, and when an entire group is tarred with the same brush, that's at best dismissed as a stereotype and at worst racism.

    At the same time however, there's always some truth to group stereotypes (e.g male vs female), it's just that not all group members share the stereotype. Some genetic features and their phenotypes are more common in one group and thus the entire group get known by these.

    If some groups mate endogamously,or otherwise have gene-barriers, and the group has practices which further the interests of the group, that soon becomes political. It doesn't matter what the basis of the group is. There was a time centuries ago where politics and religion were pretty much the same thing, and when males and females had very different roles. In some cultures, Jewish people even had to wear distinctive hats or badges, In Europe, one was either a Catholic or Non Conformist (of one sort or another), and entire nations were stereotyped. In the end it all came down to legal and financial accountability. If one group lived according to one set of rules or accounting principles and another a different set, it was inevitable that the groups will fall out often go to war or be subjected tri pogroms by the other. This was why most European nations became secular, and why there is still such an effort today to unify European states under the same legal and financial principles. The problem, of course, is that of agreeing WHAT those principles will be given that nations comprise different subsets of genes and behaviours.

    The old problems are going to remain so long as we have parties, be that socialist, conservative, Jewish or Islamic..

    The Chinese and Soviets tried to put an end to all that with a one party system. Were they wrong to try to do so? I suggest not.

  • Comment number 49.

    GOING FORWARD INTHE PERVERSITY SPACE

    The 10.00pm News just reported that some police officers had been found to have committed UNWITTING RACISM.

    Is it me?

  • Comment number 50.

    barriesingleton wrote: "The 10.00pm News just reported that some police officers had been found to have committed UNWITTING RACISM. Is it me?"

    Read this,

    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199798/cmselect/cmhaff/486/8012707.htm

    Bearing in mind this was 1997/8 and it's been a slow process of "getting rid of" Probation (essentially privatising it through the Offender Management Act 2007 recently) as part of a long process which basically goes back about 30 years vis a vis the state. Police are in the firing line too

    Also bear in mind this (1994):
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/breakout-jail-feared-loss-of-control-1448195.html

    and this (2011):
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15601988

    http://www.dodonline.co.uk/engine.asp?lev1=4&lev2=43&menu=577&biog=y&id=22683&page=brodie%20clark%20:%20Political%20biography

    The "Dysfunctional Home Office" (Ministry of WHAT Interior?) under New Labour. Reduced to its present capacity (immigration and police) vs The Ministry of Justice (Prisons and Probation). So long as one thinks about the breakup of Britain into a dozen or so statelets (NUTS) in the interests of a greater standardised Europe, it all makes a peculiar kind of transformational sense - perhaps. Unless you see a birth rate problem that is.

  • Comment number 51.

  • Comment number 52.

    The country might be bursting at the seams...... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2058456/UK-public-support-Governments-plans-stop-population-hitting-70m.html .....but it's very quiet on the NN blog!

    Everybody given up?

  • Comment number 53.

    "EVERYBODY GIVEN UP?" (#52)

    Remember St Tony's institutionalising "EDUCATION EDUCATION EDUCATION" - it was small beer compared to the drive to "EFFETE EFFETE EFFETE" of Westminster governance, over many Parliaments. How many of those caught up in current turmoil, at home and worldwide, have the ability to step outside the lie, and SEEE THEIR PART IN IT?

    I reckon to 'give up', one must first have had some resolve.

    Nuff sed.

  • Comment number 54.

    '52. At 09:20 7th Nov 2011, ecolizzy
    Everybody given up?'


    At a time like this, resolve needs stiffening...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-VMTIPwk74

  • Comment number 55.

    If anyone's bored on here, try re-reading post #48 again (maybe a couple of times) to fully understand/appreciate what is really at the heart of our political problems.

    Not because the post is not clear, just that the subject matter is so powerful and has huge consequences.

    Most of our political problems ARE caused by mis-classification and mis-description i.e. the ability to discriminate accurately.

    This post highlights how taking BIOLOGICAL differences into consideration we might begin to understand how POLITICAL differences arise. I have never seen this described anywhere else before.

  • Comment number 56.

    #54 Thanks for the belly laugh Junkk, it really made me chuckle!

  • Comment number 57.

    #53 Aw Barrie, I feel like giving up, everywhere looks a ruddy mess. I see they have 97,000 signatues on the No to 70 million campaign in under a week, will the BBC or Parliament take any notice, of course they won't, the public are ignored by the beeb and MPs alike.

    I know it's a rag of a newspaper, but a little gem spotted today http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/view/219501/Job-farce/ If this is true the British ought to rush out to Romania and apply for the british jobs from there! : (

  • Comment number 58.

    IT'S A BIG ISSUE LIZZY (#57)

    But don't bother with a job. Take a load of 'Big Issue' to Romania - or anywhere in the EU. They won't be able to read them, but we are now such a laughing-stock, they will buy them out of pity.

  • Comment number 59.

    #58 Ah Barrie an even bigger issue!!! ; )

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2058522/Benefit-fraud-Slovakian-family-imported-dozens-mothers-Britain-claim-1-2m.html

    Oh the joys of all this diversity, I must go out and celebrate tonight, another couple of million of the brits money stolen.

  • Comment number 60.

    IT 'PAYS' TO ADVERTISE (#59)

    Having made clear to the world, that we are dupes led by plonkers (our new Transport Secretary has just cast an 'expert' eye over the M5 crash scene) small wonder Johnnie Foreigner comes in droves to fleece us. But we get our own back when we bomb the proverbial out of him. Na na na-na nah! We win.

    I'll get me Fawkes mask.

  • Comment number 61.

    I am guilty of tarring an entire group with the same brush.

    On this blog I described the German National Socialists (usually know as Nazis) as awful people and was taken to task by our blogger brown-dog, who suggested that that was lazy stereo-typing.

    So, out of curiosity, I googled something like "good things the Nazis did" and got a list of ten items.

    I found out that they were kind to animal, banning vivisection and applied conservation techniques (of wolves), they invented motorways and the people's car and, I'm sure this is what brown-dog was thinking of, instituted a relief programme to help impoverished people get through the winter.

    However, this the funding for this programme was simply obtained by taking assets from 'wealthy people'. That is, predominantly Jewish people.

    Which of course, was merely the beginning of their plans for the Jews (and homosexuals, the handicapped, gypsies, Russians, and in the end, even their own elderly German people who they deemed to be not economically useful).

    Sometimes a stereo-type more-or-less fits.

    PS. I know an old English soldier, who had the great misfortune to be in one of the first military units to arrive at Belsen. What he told me about that terrible place and the denials of the local people that anything untowold had been happening there will live with me forever.

  • Comment number 62.

    HOLDING NO BRIEF FOR THE POTENTIALLY NASTY MALE, ONE CAN HAVE FEW MALE FRIENDS (#61)

    The Ape Confused by Language encompasses Jews, Nazis, and any other HomSap derivative you care to name JC. I have never Googled anything about Nazis, but am proud to own Zimbardo's book THE LUCIFER EFFECT. The one key truth that it spotlights, that all should be aware of, is “COME THE CIRCUMSTANCES COME THE 'NAZIS' - BY ANY OTHER NAME.”

    I have posted before a brief overview of our recent Prime Ministers and their inexorable progression to megalomania; BUT ALWAYS CONSTRAINED BY CULTURE. We are told that the 'national psyche' of the Germans had been humiliated. The wise old Chinese had a proverb: "DON'T DO THAT". I infer that the CIRCUMSTANCES in Germany NURTURED HITLER’S EXCESSES.

    If England finds herself with suspended governance, under martial law, with no more than a typical PM in absolute charge - be afraid etc. We could find ourselves re-enacting the Stamford Prison Experiment, and left to sort ourselves out by our EU 'siblings', who would see it as 'our problem' and not before time.

    BEWARE CONDUCIVE CIRCUMSTANCES - OPPRESSION INEXORABLY FOLLOWS.

    In passing: ponder the growing unrest: gateway to ‘special powers’ and then martial law?

  • Comment number 63.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 64.

    Since Susan Watts is going to be covering some of the bold claims often made by some "Soup Scientists" (some have taken refuse in the brain to do their witchcraft) this week, viewers should be aware of the rather poor control which many in this area (which some egregiously call "Cognitive Neuroscience") actually have over their variables. It is even worse than that in Climate Science and so it licences some very bold, creative, talk indeed, generally at the cost of many as there is a lot of money in this.

    Here's an extract from The New York Times on 2nd November which covers one aspect to the problem and a couple of links to exposure of a specific case. Note, in the USA they tend to use the term "liberal" as short-hand for LEFT or "socialist", where in fact what they criticise routinely serves Libertarian or anarchistic interests which many should now appreciate are exactly the opposite, deregulative, i.e right-wing.

    This is quite subtly done. They win both ways. By calling the anarchism "Left" wing, they get uncritical others to be critical of this supposed left and thereby recruit people to the right which really is deregulative, anarchistic. Remember, left mean regulative not anarchistic.

    “The big problem is that the culture is such that researchers spin their work in a way that tells a prettier story than what they really found,” said Jonathan Schooler, a psychologist at the University of California, Santa Barbara. “It’s almost like everyone is on steroids, and to compete you have to take steroids as well.”.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/03/health/research/noted-dutch-psychologist-stapel-accused-of-research-fraud.html?_r=2&hp

    http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2011/11/fraud-in-psychological-research/

    One has to be extremely careful with many of these US websites and "radiio" talk shows. They appear to be one thing whilst really being something else. The second link above is actually a right wing Libertarian website as one will discover if one looks up the controlling publishing company and its wider agenda. Many editing or fronting these sites are, perhaps, unaware of how they are being used politically. Some like "Alex Jones" are probably best avoided altogether as they make any rational discussion of these matters impossible. Perhaps that is the agenda of the people who fund them?

  • Comment number 65.

    ecolizzy wrote: "Everybody given up?"

    May some of them be becoming aware of just how self-centred they have been and that they are struggling to relate instead to more remote as opposed to local) allocentric, relations instead? Note how much more demanding the latter is? Such behaviour is much more sociable (and male orientated) too by the very nature of the relations which leave the self or observer out. For some, however, that is much less interesting and exciting.

    Whom?

  • Comment number 66.

    ecolizzy wrote: "Ah Barrie an even bigger issue!!! ; ) Oh the joys of all this diversity, I must go out and celebrate tonight, another couple of million of the brits money stolen."

    Not getting through. OK - so a serious question - given the disposition of so many towards Islam, how many non Muslim and Non orthodox Jewish British people would be prepared to a) prevent their daughters going into higher education and the workforce, and b) impose the same restraints on their wives and girlfriends? That, like it or not, may be what's required to change the current ongoing consequences of our Libertarian system.

    To change the image a bit, having lots of sex as part of a campaign for the benefits of virginity or demanding freedom of choice and speech for a better more orderly way of life, are both irrational, but pointing that out never makes any differences, as too many people ask "why not?"
    without ever realising that they're asking a question! Give some t careful thought to the subtle ambiguity of what people say and think in such contexts....

    This is all about abrogation or diffusion of responsibility for some of one's behaviours. i.e reduced awareness - self-centredness. It's endemic. It's what sustains the Libertarian system. It's critical to it.

    One sees and hears it being reinforced every day except most don't notice as they accept, if not defend it as de rigueur.


    JohnConstable wrote "I know an old English soldier, who had the great misfortune to be in one of the first military units to arrive at Belsen.
    What he told me about that terrible place and the denials of the local people that anything untowold had been happening there will live with me forever."

    Did anyone have the heart to tell your friend that apparently, people in Belsen died from typhus, that more died AFTER the British arrived than before, and that this was very probably due to the allies having bombed German supply lines to the camp as part of the massive bombing of Germany in the war?

    Things are not always what they seem as one should know in wartime..

    I'm sure SOME German National Socialists were very unpleasant people, just as SOME people of all political conviction are but that does not render the political system itself unpleasant. For example, both the People's Republic of China and the former USSR implemented National Socialism. They just called it something different. In the Soviet Union it was called "Socialism in One Country".

    Naming (and classing) is an odd business as is quantification into what one names and classes. Name calling in politics and war is dastardly.

    for example, many Jewish people in Germany were extreme right wing
    (anarchistic) "Libertarians" (think the 1% today) who were regarded as the political drivers of Germany's economic woes.

    Think banksters.

 

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