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Monday 8 August 2011

Sarah McDermott | 10:22 UK time, Monday, 8 August 2011

Home Secretary Theresa May is meeting police chiefs about rioting in London with new violence erupting in Hackney.

Skirmishes broke out between police and groups of young people in the area around Mare Street.

Tonight Liz Mackean will bring us the latest, and will be considering what the origins of this unrest are and where it can go from here.

Gavin will be joined in the studio by former London Mayor Ken Livingstone, Conservative Shaun Bailey, and a community leader from Tottenham.

Later we'll be joined by broadcaster and columnist Darcus Howe to discuss if comparisons between these inner city riots and events that took place in the 1980s are useful or misleading.

Then Andrew Verity will be asking what options remain for the West to avoid a double dip recession, and we'll be joined by German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle.

Join Gavin at 2230 on BBC Two.


Comments

Page 1 of 2

  • Comment number 1.

    The riots have nothing to do with cuts, and everything to do with the fact that a 16 year old girl was beaten up by 15 police officers.

  • Comment number 2.

    'Home Secretary Theresa May is to return from her summer holiday'

    Other than nipping a few silly opportunistic whinges in the bud - http://order-order.com/2011/08/08/prezza-criticises-government-holiday/ - I'll be fascinated as to what that actually achieves.

    The dragging of all down to a mutually destructive, but satisfactory level seems well in place.

  • Comment number 3.

    Riots:
    It wont be long before the hard left jump on this bandwagon -they always do. Keep your eye out for Bob Crow for the next round of rumbles in the jungles.

    Hack Maxine Mawinney's 2 hour stint on BBC news 24 was a discrace. I'd like to know who gave her those questions she was bangng out: Govt cuts cuts cuts to blame and was it the polices's fault? Who wrote her questions down for her? some snot-faced socialists worker activist no doubt. I'm surprised she was allowed to get away with her questioning which was just leftist labour sanctioned diatribe drivel...I was waiting for the sheperds hook to pull her of the screen it was that blatent. I hope this women doesn't pick up a cheque for her work at the BBC and her stint was only work experience because if she is getting some form of payment I'll be sending in a complaint...failing that I'll protest outside the BBC Oxford Road Manchester studios -I'm minutes away from it -with my own mini riot with placard demanding the removal of all leftists and Guardian readers from our state funded media organisation.
    I'm still flabbersmacked with yesterdays BBC reporting. And I'm paying for this!?!

  • Comment number 4.

    I was a paramedic during the Southall, Notting Hill & Brixton riots in the late 70s/80s, so was pretty close to the action and I was a local councillor for an inner city area. Although I wasn't there during the poll tax riots, I kept in touch with many who were in the communities involved. I also have a lot of knowledge about rioting in N.I. and therefore think I am entitled to express an informed opinion.

    I make the following suggestion about the nature of this type of rioting:

    1. Riots are "social explosions" - they require a spark to ignite them, a detonator to the start the violence and a powerkeg to provide the main charge.

    2. Sparks can be anything - an arrest, a death, an inflammatory speech - a date in the calendar - sparks fly all the time in complex communities - yes keeping them to a minimum is a good idea, but they are bound to happen. In terms of recent events, the specific spark is pretty irrelevant and if it hadn't been the shooting of a young man by the police, sooner or later it would have been something else. Endlessly trying to deconstruct "spark" events is a pointless and futile effort by the media which ignores the really important issues.

    3. "Detonators" are interesting social phenomena - in my analogy the detonator is a group of people of sufficient size that has a sufficiently strong bond that they will come together and work in concert along a sliding scale that starts with forming a gang and chanting their dissent, then moves through the full range of civil disobedience, on up to attempted murder, arson and theft. A "social detonator" can be the local group of lads (or lassies sometimes), a political group such as the self-styled anarchists of the student fee protests, or another incoming group, e.g. white racists. In N. Ireland measures targeted on "detonator" groups and strategies to prevent them being allowed to create potential "social explosions" have reduced the level of unrest dramatically and the excellent public order tactics of PSNI and the Army often beat them at their own game, combined with sophisicated intelligence operations. THe student fee riots aftermath revealed how poor the Met had been at this in failing to infiltrate or get intelligence on the group involved.

    3. The "powerkeg" is the really important factor - without this the "detonators" simply cause minor scuffles at most - think drunks fighting in a county town square on a Saturday night. "Sparks" may fly for a few seconds, but without the other elements soon burn out. The "powerkeg" is a host

  • Comment number 5.

    continued from truncated posting

    3. The "powerkeg" is the really important factor - without this the "detonators" simply cause minor scuffles at most - think drunks fighting in a county town square on a Saturday night. "Sparks" may fly for a few seconds, but without the other elements soon burn out. The "powerkeg" is a host community in a geographically defined area that feels it is under deliberate and unfair attack - in this case by the state in all its forms. For example, student nurses living in nurses' homes earned so little and paid such a high % of their pay for the lodging that they quite literally didn't have the cash to pay the poll tax - ditto many other groups - this left them with no way out and the conviction that the government was unfair and unreasonable.

    So IMHO the key issue here is the mixture of policies that have combined to make an explosive community in N. London. Firstly most rioters are young males - they are suffering disproportionate unemployment and things like abolishing EMA and student fees has alienated them from the economy. Secondly cuts in housing benefits in particular amount of "social cleansing" of inner cities of the poor, plus other benefits cuts. Thirdly the devaluation of the £ has driven up inflation for food, energy and petrol, so there is a big squeeze on most people who are really feeling the pinch. Many living in these areas are also public sector workers, who are bearing a disportionate share of spending cuts and job loses.

    So what have we got? The perfect mix to explode - and given the large cuts in the police and army, I'd say that Teresa May ought to get seriously worried that the police may quite literally become too thinly spread and exhausted to keep the lid on the situation if it goes on night after night across our cities.

    The only reason the Army was sent into N. Ireland in th 1970s was that the RUC + B Specials were unable to take the constant rioting in N.I. and appealed to Westminster for aid - this time for mainland UK, there will be no one left to call for help.

    The whole coalition economic strategy is also rapidly losing legitimacy as the OBR & IMF have now both come out and said the essential growth target to pay off the deficit is going to be missed anyway, so even if some of the people in these communities who tacitly went along with the need for austerity, they are getting thinner and thinner on the ground.

    I note the various speeches of LibDems condemning the poll tax and blaming Mrs Thatcher for creating the condit

  • Comment number 6.

    One does feel the work experience guys are rather running... er.. riot... as the slightly more savvy grown ups sip a nice Chianti in more clement surrounds...

    '@BBC_WHYS World Have Your Say
    Following the Tottenham riots we want to speak to black men about identity, portrayal in the media, background and culture. Tweet us! #WHYS


    I have enquired as to how they ID a 'black man' (having first, on presumes, run this by the 'ism advisers on the top floor) on twitter.

    Doubt I'll get an answer. It probably wouldn't 'suit'.

    The state of 'reporting' thus far is duly explained if again hardly excused.

    Not sure our national broadcaster is really meant to be stirring things up quite in the way that is shaping up. Is it?

    '3. At 14:13 8th Aug 2011, kevseywevsey - And I'm paying for this!?!

    Many are compelled to. Of course, one neat solution is to acquire your 50" LCD via the broken window of the retailer, which gets around having to leave your details to help Capita collect the revenue that's needed to 'cover' such actions in such 'style'.

  • Comment number 7.

    Why does this blog truncate postings?

    Final bit:

    I note the various speeches of LibDems condemning the poll tax and blaming Mrs Thatcher for creating the conditions which led to the riots at the itme - now I hear Nick Clegg et al going on about "gangs of criminals" using precisely the same tactic of trying to demonise the rioters as criminals that the Tories used back then, rahter than admit that government policy is the determinant of whether an community is benign, or turns into a "powerkeg".



  • Comment number 8.

    Take it all back... it is... apparently, mainly about who is, and is not, on holiday.

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/davidhughes/100099964/labour-are-trying-to-wreck-boriss-summer-holiday/

    I predict many a sombre grimace with outbreaks of 'unacceptable' and 'lessons have been learned', with the possibility of 'unprecedented' from the light showers we now have in Parliament and TV studios around the land.

  • Comment number 9.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 10.

    "This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules"

    I see I got a couple of them yesterday. Telling the truth can be a revolutionary act..who said that?

    Some groups are more prone to emotional outbursts, blaming others for their shortcomings and exploding into violence. Why is that?
    I'm sick of mincing me words on here.

    I heard this yesterday:

    "If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure"

    I'm sure that was lifted from an Al Gore quote. If it was, Al Gore is a right clever fella. He picked up an oscar once so he must be smart.

    P:S: I'm off all week so I'll be watching you with notepad in hand -awaiting any slips into leftist land. And if I find you having guests on your show like Prescott et al, I swear to God I'll give up Newsnight forever..even If you have the Warkster on 4 nights a week as a hot totty draw, I'll stop watching you and start doing something more productive with my time.

    'Hot totty', is that a familiar term? not sure if it is but you get the jist.

  • Comment number 11.

    The moderator has to be a socialist for sure. Well they get to them young and keep them safe in a bubble so this is to be exepected.

  • Comment number 12.

    'Later we'll discuss'

    Pleeeease let the 'guests' to do so be Lee Jasper and Jody Macintyre.

    You know you want to. And it all makes sense.

    Plus they must be near top of some of the speedials of those operating the production staff skeleton crew.

  • Comment number 13.

    Ok, it's a view from another direction. Maybe it can be seen as 'balance' (the critique seems broad ranging enough to qualify) for what has be offered to date?

    http://conservativehome.blogs.com/thetorydiary/2011/08/tottenham-conservatives-issue-strong-message-to-local-police-community-leaders-boris-johnson-and-to-.html

    To the Media (especially the BBC) -
    Tottenham will not be helped by your coverage of Saturday night’s events—and could even be actively harmed by your irresponsible attempts to peddle a ‘Back to the 1980s’ narrative for what is happening here.


    Peddling narratives seems to be a bit of a meme these days. A retrograde one.

  • Comment number 14.

    Have a look at this guy (On Reuters)

    http://uk.reuters.com/video/2011/08/08/jim-rogers-us-downgrade-deserved-geithne?videoId=218065015&videoChannel=78

    His thesis is that the European countries that have large budget deficits should go bankrupt and that it is the wrong thing for the ECB to be buying 'worthless' bonds. He has a point!

    Further:

    Big un-fundable sovereign debtors such as the US and the UK should also consider default as a way out of their problems. Simply stop paying the coupons!

    Let the lenders (i.e owners of the sovereign debt paper) take the losses.

    Printing money (incl. QE etc.) just gives you decade after decade of depression and collapsing stock markets and declining business. We must avoid this - but all UK policy is directed towards this.

    This has been my thesis since 2008 - take the hit and then we can recover - this means in the UK - stick up interest rates to 5% NOW - force mortgagees into foreclosure and get house prices down pronto to at least Irish levels so that we can compete again. If this should kill a large section of the secured lenders in the UK - then so be it. But above all get the UK's cost base competitive again ASAP.

    (If you do not understand why we have to have competitive housing costs that you aren't an economist and don't understand trade!)

  • Comment number 15.

    Further to 14...

    By the way today top pensions are 29 time more than the poorest. This is far far worse than even David Cameron complained about when he came to power of 20 times. These fat cats are the symbols of the rot in society - the other side of which is the alienated and disposed poor who riot!

    Remember the Gordon Riots took on a life far beyond the original issue becasue of the huge disparity in society and the vast population of the abject poor.

    This is why we have to see implemented a National Maximum Income - the fat cast have to prove that 'we are all in it together'. This is what David Cameron wanted (before he was silenced!). 20 times the National Minimum Wage implemented by HMCR via the Tax system as 100% tax on all income over the maximum.

  • Comment number 16.

    In the spirit of what is, might be and how such things get shared, near and far, I am wondering how we get this, and this alone, on the side bar home page...

    'Soldier 'cut fingers off Taliban'...
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14443193

    ...to this when one clicks though....
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-14441627

    'Soldier allegedly cut fingers off dead Taliban'

    Seems a rather key word (or two) dropped off in the elevation to 'Top Stories' there, guys.

    Especially when based on 'claims' thus far.

    I kinda want news. 'Stories' ... top or otherwise... not so much.

  • Comment number 17.

    so 45 minutes of 'making excuses' for violent disorder?

    hayekism leads to riots.

  • Comment number 18.

    Is the reverand Jessie Jackson gonna be available for newsnight punditry?..he normally makes an appearance when his flock have some beef with the authorities. He'd be right up your street for the BBCs line of thinking: its the oppressive police fault and lack of funds for the young-uns, you wouldn't even need to steer him...failing that get some community organiser on, there's loads of them knocking about, the beeb didn't waste anytime getting them in on the act yesterday. Oh the things we could learn from these kinda people. Oh lets all get clappy handy and sloganise with stuff like "no more guns in our community"...and such like. Yeah that should work.

    Jesus! I'm turning into a white liberal who thinks he know all the answers...I've not had my medication today. I'll be alright later.

  • Comment number 19.

  • Comment number 20.

    Different story but an example of how some are way ahead of the others:

    "Exercise can be good for cancer patients"..so says the BBC in a report today.

    I could've told you that without a costly medical study to back it up either. A much better report would be: chemo kills, radiation kills and the knife ain't much better either. Stay away from doctors unless you want diagnosis. Then go home, throw away your microwave oven and all processed foods from your cupboards. Educate and become selfaware, then eat food that has nutritional content. There's a reason people get cancer, and it ain't pot luck, its the poisons in processed food, drinking alcohol too much etc and never giving our bodies a break to allow the immune system to do its work. Your ignorance is the pharmas cash cow. Remember that.

    Cancers are anaerobic..and they like acidic fementing enviroments. Think about that for a minute. Its very simple really. But somehow we listen to quacks...who eventually kill us.

    "Hey look, the tumour went down - pity the treament killed him"

    Now put that burger down and eat an apple for goodness sake...you'll thank me for it.

  • Comment number 21.

    I can see already that the BBC and are spinning the tired old lie that the cause is “poverty” and that we are seeing the "frustration" and "anger" of "alienated", "disenfranchised" young men. This is complete and utter rubbish that should be ruthlessly taken to task as soon as it is uncritically repeated.

    If anyone actually takes time to carefully study the TV images then they would soon notice that those taking part in the riots are not "angry" - they are laughing, they are enjoying themselves, absolutely loving it and taking sheer delight in their infantile violence.

    This is exactly what mindless behaviour of mob rule looks like and precisely what happens when lawless zones are allowed to develop due to the police not enforcing the rule of law because of "local sensitivities".

    Neither is “poverty” the cause if the Bling, expensive trainers, mobile telephones or cars of the street gangs are anything to go by. Those who are homeless and disposed in these areas are those who have had their homes and businesses destroyed and looted by the rioters. No, this is organised criminality from those who want the nice things in life but are not prepared to work hard to earn them so instead use violence and intimidation to tyrannise others into giving them what they want.

    I was under the impression that it was perfectly normal in crises like this for Looters to be systematically shot where they stand and I really do not know why martial law hasn't been declared and the army brought in.

    The police, the law courts and the politicians have failed spectacularly in allowing the street gangs to rule the streets of London (and elsewhere) and the end result is that there are now no go areas where the rule of the law no longer applies.

    No doubt Ken Livingstone, Lee Jasper and all the unelected "community leaders","Yoof workers" or other useful idiot apologists will automatically jump on the bandwagon to blame the police for absolutely everything whilst making tortuous excuses for those who openly destroy the very communities that they live in but please don't be fooled by any of this propaganda for a single second.

    These riots happened because there is a ghetto culture of grievance and entitlement that simply seized the opportunity to have yet another pop at the police, the rule of law and, ultimately, democracy itself.

    This is about who actually rules in our country. Is it the majority of people via their elected representatives who pass laws in a parliamentary democracy which the police and law courts then have to impartially enforce without FEAR or FAVOUR or is it the free-form anarchy of the mob through their unelected local loudmouths and unrepresentative agitators?

  • Comment number 22.

    In regards to the riots in tottenham I am little confused that the police are accusing a small group of people triggering the violence. If this was a "small group of people" why didn't the police take control of this "small number of people". This is a poor area with high crime so surely they should be well equiped to deal with it. The goverment seems to be jumping on "a small group of people" wagon too! I actually think a lot of people are generally fed up and this incident has given some unsatisfied/unemployed people the chance to express there views. The last few riots have been in poorer areas in london- it might not be legal or fair to those affected but the goverment has to regonise that they are not reaching these areas. I really hope the goverment will be using tax payers money to give financial help to those effected! Instead of accusing violent people of being criminals they need understand why they are so angry. The goverment needs to question why there are no riots in Hampstead for example(rich area). The goverment seems to use the excuse of a small number of people enciting violence and don't take responsibility for the fact that these areas are coming from the poorist people in the UK that the goverment is not addressing. Apart from cutting benefits I would like to know what this goverment is doing for poorest people in this country. Clearly these riots are unacceptable and individuals need to come to justise but our goverment should learn from this.-These riots are coming from poor areas-this says it all. Punnishment is a short term answer. This country needs a long time answer!!!

  • Comment number 23.

    Londons burning:
    Can we not send the RUC into our troubled spots. Our police have been somewhat neutured with diversity sensitivity training.

    Lee Jasper is on Channel 4. What was the odds of him making that appearance. "Crisis of confidence between the MET and the community"..good line there jasper. Just what we expected from you buddy.

    I can't belieeeeve I'm watching C4 news.

  • Comment number 24.

    INSULTING THE APE

    In the Age of Perversity, there is no more perverse act than to put a woman in charge of Police and Criminals. Physical violence and nihilistic destruction arise from deep in the male animal, a place that Theresa May cannot possibly access.

    Nuff sed

  • Comment number 25.

    Re the riots: I commend Richard Bunning's Posts. There are only two solutions to the powderkeg, social engineering of some kind, or genocide and ethnic cleansing. Choose.

    As for angry versus laughing, someone who is angry will laugh when they're getting their own back. It's worse than anger, it's alienation. I've seen small-scale alienation in schools I've worked in. Repression would be wonderful if it worked, but, short of genocide, it makes things worse. Intelligent action is necessary, and by intelligent I mean rising above the gut reaction.

    The law of the jungle decrees that what creatures have, they fight to gain or keep, but life is "nasty, brutish, and mercifully short". Human social organisation largely gets round this, but does not repeal the laws of nature. Those who are largely excluded from mainstream society, have little to lose by reverting to a more primitive mode. The most intelligent will become crime bosses.

    Anyway, I signed on to comment about Herr Westerwelle: He not highly regarded in Germany, and is unlikely to have a political future.

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,758891,00.html

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ep1Skd4iRz8&feature=player_embedded

    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Westerwave-no-one-can-reach-me-the-water/170082881214

  • Comment number 26.

    Its just crossed my mind that there is a slight possibility that the current spate of riots were planned, in that some of the businesses hit hardest, ( one big store set on fire ) and looted were planned as an elaborate scam on the insurance. The main riot targets would appear to be the type of business having a particularly hard time financially ( same companies hit in different locations ), what a really good idea if you can hide your trading losses under a big insurance claim ?

  • Comment number 27.

    Lets hope the youths dont cotton just how thin the thin blue line is nowadays, they are probably drafting in coppers from Cornwall just for this.

    Even the most rudimentary of social media co-ordinated anarchistic rioting for 'the right to have a big TV and some nice trainers' in half a dozen locations would probably overwhelm them.

    'concerned citizen' of North east London would not dare intervene for fear of being arrested himself for assault on a minor, the rioters probably 'know their rights' more than he does.. and how to use them, capturing all on a mobile phone to use in a court of law.

    Still if it gets bad we can always call in the Army to deal with our own cultural equivalent of the Taliban insurgency.... cant we?



  • Comment number 28.





    Perhaps Nn - via Ms Mckean ( usually pretty thorough.) - can do a ‘piece’ on those individuals in - near - identical situations whom choose not to, en masse, break the law?

    Perhaps she might also investigate the ‘problem caused by poor parenting’ which was all too rapidly ( Willingly?) passed over by News 24 when raised - pointedly - by one condemning ‘commentator’ and - inadvertently - by an ‘excusing’ apologist!

    It is pretty irritating to see the ever growing queue of those whom ‘offer to comment’ that seem to throw out every excuse possible for the actions of these people yet present the motive as ‘reasons’, justification(s) and ‘social peer-group authorisations’ when in reality the individual - in this series of events - knowingly makes the choice to undertake an action. Looting a shopping precinct/centre a mile away from a ‘march’, vigil., ‘protest’ is nothing other than criminal activity.

    What has been of benefit to see is the interviews with local people whom have condemned - outright - the whole series of criminal events. What has been extremely worrying to hear is the apparent divergence - of explanation of cause - on the basis of race. Losing one’s job has a negative effect whatever one’s racial background. Being unemployed can drag people down regardless of skin colour. The lack of self-esteem resulting from long term joblessness affects many from all ethnic communities.

    Sadly the actions of the criminal few will have a long term effect on the communities they have ravaged. Businesses will not re-open, jobs will disappear and razed buildings will remain vacant. The employed will take flight, housing will slip down the social ‘scale’, the ‘invisible’ walls of the - supposed myth - ‘no-go‘ areas will spread and the ghettos will expand .... then the problem will re-surface....

    With the same ol’ excuses and ‘condemnation’ .... Of course !

    The criminal activities over this weekend have not done - and will never do - anything that will benefit the communities that complain they have ‘legitimate grievances’. Their behaviour will only drag the community, the communities and individuals back beyond a place they were before ......

    Sad ‘innit!


    Post post ....

    Any bets as to whether those individual’s that ‘liberated’ the LCD TV’s will - in trying to avoid any further penalty - use the excuse that the local burnt-out Post Office meant that they couldn’t purchase a TV License!

    Of course!



    Re: 25 Sometimes..... (Often?)

    Alienation by choice!

    (Their own, or by others!!!!)

    400

  • Comment number 29.

    Are the government still going ahead with cuts to the police force? If they can't contain the mess now, what on earth will happen after the cuts? Perhaps we should just declare a state of emergency and bring in army rule.

  • Comment number 30.

    people don't have a pool table so go burn down shops?

    no wonder migrants are preferred for jobs. who would employ the hoodies?

    is bbc 1 xtra still pumping out hate society gangsta rap?

  • Comment number 31.



    A theory .........

    One culture doesn’t like stroke approve of the way another culture treats them?

    i.e Multiculturalism is failing stroke has failed.

    Discuss .....

    25

  • Comment number 32.




    YES!

    Problem solved !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Dave’s coming back!

    Now! If only Gideon was to hand!

    Poll ratings are needed!

    And they WILL now soar !!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Doh!

  • Comment number 33.



    I was so, so, so excited about Prodigal Dave’s return I forgot the word count ..... So ...... Apologies ......

    Twenty two.

    Apologies again!

    22.

  • Comment number 34.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 35.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 36.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 37.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 38.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 39.

    [cont.]
    And yet a failure to catch the perpetrators of violent crime is not going to help anyone, least of all members of the black community, who are so disproportionately the criminals' victims.
    ..............

    Note to the mods:
    If this newspaper article was deemed to comply with the rules, when first posted, it cannot have acquired a racist hue, since. Can it?

    Can I also bring to your attention that your persecution of posters won’t succeed, especially when it lacks a certain subtlety: the length of posts allowed for JAPerson, in comparison to mine, makes it so overt and, therefore, a challenge that cannot be ignored.

  • Comment number 40.

    19 Brossen

    Unfortunately the author of that piece is an ignoramus of gargantuan proportions! If his prescription is for more free market ideology and raping of natural resources, then there is no hope for us all:

    http://forensicstatistician.wordpress.com/2011/05/27/is-economics-a-real-science/#comment-175

  • Comment number 41.

    Well we were warned but the Libs with post imperialist guilt were allowed to run amok with their foolish policies. Maybe London -certainly large parts of it should have changes to their name. We've already got Londonistan for the capital. Hows about Chicargo for Hackney. Maybe Tottenham could be re-named Detroit. Manyhands would rise for getting the new monica 'the Bronx'...oh they'd all want that. Postcode wars would ensue in getting that one.

    I blame the Liberals...and Hollywood ..and 50pence with his mikework. Some call it singing. I call it debasement of society. Talking of which. Is Tim Westwood -with his massive posse - still working for the BBC?

  • Comment number 42.

    10 oclock news. 2 minutes in and they get someone commenting about Govt cuts...unbelievable!

    I'm taking note.

  • Comment number 43.

    JAP

    Alienation is usually by mutual consent, though it may be mistakenly perceived by the powerful side as expecting the other to know their place. The current riots have nothing to do with multiculturalism, except in the sense that an underclass creates its own culture. In the past, there have been plenty of riots by Britain's indigenous subcultures. Football hooliganism is one modern manifestation of alienation.

    British Afro-Caribbeans had the African part of their original culture suppressed. But of course, like it or not, genetic tests show they are partly kith and kin to the indigenous British, for reasons which need not be elaborated upon. Their culture is as British as Scouse, Geordie or Brummie. Or to put it slightly differently, it's as British as the Tate Gallery, and has similar origins. My Great Great Grandfather was a Royal Artillery NCO in Jamaica in in 19th century. He no doubt played his part, as did the national sweet tooth.

  • Comment number 44.

    Crikey, now the riots have spread to Birmingham!

  • Comment number 45.

  • Comment number 46.

    Newsnight 1 minute in:
    Cuts

    This better be a balanced edition or I swear to God I'll be protesting

  • Comment number 47.

    Does "multiculturalism" work? I was brought up in ethnically and culturally divided Middlesbrough. The wrong colour - school uniform - was definitely dangerous in certain parts of town. We had Catholics of largely Irish extraction, nonconformist working class English Scots and Welsh, middle class or aspiring Quakers C of E and Jews. It was quite a mix even before the New Commonwealth immigration started. A couple of my best mates were Catholics, but it might well have caused problems had I "courted" their sisters.

    Despite tensions however, we had a bigger community which largely and loosely united the sub-communities. The Catholics were perceived by some to get more than their "fair" share. But overall, the were then the least prosperous. The teetotalish, respectability-obsessed nonconformists attributed it to alcohol and being priest-ridden of course. What was the cause and what was the symptom? Perhaps it's not easy to separate?

    Back to the present: who is more archetypally British - David Cameron or Sir Trevor MacDonald? I would say the latter, even though he wasn't born here. I'd lay odd that he is FAR more popular!

  • Comment number 48.

    I have finally concluded that the on going riots can be attributed -in some part at least -to the BBC and its hatefilled and leftwing agenda.

    "No its not connected to the cuts"...Gavin looked proper disappointed.

  • Comment number 49.

    soo... some argue that "people are just generally bad, and this is [normal??]"


    NOT FAIR TO BLAME THE POLICE ON THEIR RESPONSE!!!!!!

    duggan: if police were actually shot at, then he fired first. It is doubtful he would have been able to fire back if they had shot him first.


    most people so far are looking for what the answer IS, rather that what it could be!

    -cuts are definitely part of the problem, so is yobbery, so is the loss of community services, so are the feelings of having no future - and this covers ALL communities, youth of.

  • Comment number 50.


    Kev

    It's Chicago...not Chicargo

  • Comment number 51.

    Hey everyone around the world! Come to the Olympic Looting Games in London 2011:

    We have the 200 meter hurdles – over bins and burnt cars
    There’s the 500 meter sprint dash at the cops and back again
    There’s the molotov javelin (essential that competitors complete this wearing a scarf across their face)
    And finally there’s the supermarket sweep challenge – see how quickly you can clear out a Tesco metro!

    p.s. TV coverage provided by BBC and Sky TV helicopters!!

    No need for tickets!!!

  • Comment number 52.

    why is that "youth worker" so desperate to DENY that the cuts in spending on community services to the young has ANY impact at all? He's incredibly propagandic, i wonder who for?

  • Comment number 53.

  • Comment number 54.

    Is this the start of the civil war the eco-fascists and the stock market parasites had planned all along, the excuse they always needed to impose virtual Marshal Law ?

  • Comment number 55.


    #51 H_P (sauce)

    Very amusing.

    This blog needs lightening up at times ;o)

  • Comment number 56.

    one of the differences with these riots to the 80s, is that most of the rioters now are born Britons, and add on the layers of sophistication that entails.

    Darcus Howe is NOT "defending" the riots, Edwina, he is giving one of the reasons for it.


    Edwina: hey, i WOULD LOVE to her talk the same way about the Banksters, and the corrupt politicians, and the kkkorporates.

    darcus howe - please, the events today are not JUST about institutional racism!

    good summary at end, a good journalist there.

  • Comment number 57.

    "Your comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain."
    "Your comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain."
    "Your comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain."
    "Your comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain."
    "Your comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain."
    "Your comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain."

    The mod is bouncing in his/her chair, like a giddy child.

  • Comment number 58.

    i bet the other union leaders, who organised the huge march through London to protest against The Cuts And Tax Avoidance, would have loved to have that Police Union man to speak, if he spoke like that. It was kind of a shame though that he was almost blackmailing the Govt that they would be hard on the other unions if the Govt reversed the Police cuts. And major kudos to Gavin for pointing that out.

  • Comment number 59.

    The BBC must be absolutely delighted. Just when they were wondering how they could get anymore mileage out of government cuts, along come the riots and they can start the ball rolling again. And then there's the police whom the Beeb have spent weeks attacking through the tedium of the so-called hacking scandal, and now they have the cheek to complain that they're demoralised. Bah.

  • Comment number 60.

    Kevsey doesn't think it's "balanced" if issues he doesn't like are mentioned, ie "cuts". Of course, as Hawkeye has implied, a rudimentary understanding of economics might help.

    As I asked a few days ago, why was it that we were in boom 4 years ago, and could provide for our needs: yet now we are in "bust" and can't? Have we had famine, plague or other natural disaster? We haven't: we have a mathematical problem. Our system of entitlement to consume is "managed" by the banks, without regard to needs, natural resources or manpower. They create most of the money and extract a percentage of it as rent. In most of the naughties they created too much, but did very well out of it. Now the arbitrary mathematical rules have turned upon the banks, and upon the rest of society, causing chaos, misery and fear. Unless we look at the realities, rationally, we are stuffed.

    Sadly, too many people prefer their comfortable prejudices to the reason which might save them - and all of us.

  • Comment number 61.

    Musev:
    Cheers for that, my spelling is horrendouus.

    Shaune gave the most intelligent answers. Ken was his usual self and the other fella was ok. The policeman was trying his best also. So at least it was a reasonable discussion. (did I spell all of that right?)

    Pity it was later spoilt by Darkus Howe (did I spell all of that right)

    I should do spell checking.

    At what point do we send the army in and have a policy for shoot to kill? is there a point when that could happen? Because for some business and home owners that point has already been passed I'd say. (did I spell all that right...you'll let me know wont you MuseV. you can be my very own personel spell checker ..lol)

  • Comment number 62.

    APPARENTLY GOVERNMENT IS NOT AT FAULT FOR MAYHEM

    I seem to remember that, a few years back, we apologised for our part in the slave-trade. Spot the connection.

    For those tuned to political abuse, at its finest, the exchange between Edwina and Ken was an education in vitriol. Where might they have honed those skills?

    WESTMINSTER HAS MUCH TO ANSWER FOR

  • Comment number 63.




    SC @ 43 ..... Response ....

    The 400 word limit required constriction but I chose to make the point ....

    Alienation of any ‘collective’ is, in my limited experience, often chosen. (That said., the statement is not intended as empirical.) Yes, often there is a dominant stroke subservient expectation - both? ways - but in the last couple of decades considerable - some would argue ‘too much’, I propose ‘improperly focussed’ - effort has been put into modernising society for the bigger purpose i.e. Society. Sadly the ideology is changing, and not entirely as a result of external influences stroke requirements.


    I must disagree with the first part of your second sentence primarily - not exclusively - because we most likely view multiculturalism through different experiences. I spent considerable - and enjoyable - years also ‘educating, mentoring, developing’ yoof in the system and the issue is particular complex yet I will never accept assimilation over integration. That said the recent history of integration has failed simply - Yep, wrong word but .... 400 roolz! - because it has been “ Integrate, we’ll deal with the responsibility aspect another time “ which in turn evolved to “ Integrate, Yep! Of course your roolz are fine coz we don’t want to be seen to upset you.” and then into “Integrate? No need mate, we’re multicultural.” Now .... “Integration! Why the redacted haven’t you integrated?”

    The real danger is where we go from here ............. (Para 2 of my post 28 above is a preferred starting point, Then ............ Just ask!)

    Where we really would be best discussing this issue is over a pint, flagon, Jeroboam, or - preferred - mug of ..... but that can’t happen unless we are both telepathic (I’m not !) so ......

    Perhaps a true indicator of where we might look to start solving ‘the’ sic problem is with the choice of the first three words - not the premise of - of your second paragraph ....

    Does anyone know if there’s an “ Moron’s Guide to Telepathy”?

    It might be worth me starting the process!


  • Comment number 64.

    Chicago (or it it Chicargo? I've forgotton already)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoKn7vkSMBc

  • Comment number 65.

    REALLY, people are angry at the Govt that is behaving so terribly, that it has pushed so many British youth into such organised violence and looting, who else has final responsibility for how this country is run?

    at the moment, it is the direct 'actors', the rioters and the police, that people are thinking about. Sooner or later, the Public will realise that this didn't happen last year, or the year before, or the year before, or the year before...etc etc etc etc.

    so what has changed? The youth *know* there is little hope for their future, under this Govt's current policies, because now they have the internet to tell them the truth behind the official lies/spokespeople.

    the Govt meanwhile will attempt to paint this as needing new powers, as though massive unrest within is simply a normal occurrence, to be met by a greater Police State, which is also 'normal'. It is not. Even if it is repeated a million times, the successful response to civil unrest is NOT more State violence, so do not believe it. It is reform in Govt policies.


    the double irony will be that although the communication methods used by the rioters and such moderate and non-violent organisations such as UKUncut are similar (the rioters actually seem far better organised!), they are completely different in their goals, their theory, and their acts. yet such new measures by Theresa May would be used against UKUncut, environmentalists, and other liberal and moderate groups.
    Just as the Police were embedding many agent-provocateurs into environment groups that are only trying to non-violently change people's behaviour through publicity stunts, whilst the far-right were plotting to slaughter children.

    the State seems terrified by exactly the wrong people.


    but these yobs should NOT be seen as "political martyrs", they had only one agenda, violence and looting. I am sure the Police already have enough laws to deal with such behaviour, and that those they have identified will be prosecuted. Even if it take months.

    these are communities that cannot afford such enormous destruction, and most of the suffering is upon those who had little more than the rioters did themselves.

    they have harmed their own people and communities, and only given the State the chance to try to increase its powers over our lives. I understand the anger, who really does not? But these riots are a cause of anguish for the Nation, and the only hope is that they are a wake-up call for a Govt lost in its own myths.

    peace, on our cities. please.

  • Comment number 66.

    SAINTS PRESERVE US FROM TALL BROWN ORATORS

    Obama's 'coach' is on the brink of a precipice, and all the gold, long since, fell out. "Hold on Lads" he says, "I've got an idea". Then he says, reminiscent of the YES WE CAN days: "MARKETS MAY RISE AND FALL BUT THIS IS THE USA!"

    Meanwhile; in the Newsynighty studio. the platitudinous vicar is rehearsing serial claptrap. Newsynighty - hello? This could get out of hand; are you STILL only interested in EDGY?

  • Comment number 67.

    Anyone know who that ridiculous vicar bloke was? He had absolutely nothing to say but wasted most of the programme telling us 'that we needed to be absolutely clear'...about what? He never told us. Classic example of somebody invited on a programme for his background rather than his ability to speak

  • Comment number 68.

    LET ME COUNT THE WAYS THAT GOVERNMENT IMPINGES ON THE INDIVIDUAL PSYCHE

    Westminster (my term for dynastic governance, encompassing all nuances but without purge or overthrow) in recent decades, progressively degraded pregnancy, birth and mothering, to occupational hazard, production-line operation, and mothering - what's that? They top this out with institutionalising schooling; it makes conformists of many and disaffects of the rest. None emerge from Westminster guiding hand as WHOLE!

    Coincident with this blind folly, we shipped in Manglish 'slaves' without a single philosophical or psychological thought. Cheap, was good.

    Anyone wanting to pick a PC fight, I suggest you look up 'alien' and 'alienation' and ponder.

    Westminster is a power-and-profit-led-pit of disgrace. They got us into this mess, not hot-headed youth at the bottom of the heap. let them remove the beam from their own eye.

    WESTMINSTER ISN'T WORKING - GOOD MEN ARE DOING NOTHING

  • Comment number 69.

    Gather the Guardian, the Independent and the Telegraph all have the same picture of a white rioter on the front page. But of course. Nice to know that these 'children' as the Newsnight guests kept calling them, can all afford a Blackberry. Presumably that's because they no longer have to pay their Youth Club entrance fees?

  • Comment number 70.

    "DECENT PEOPLE WHO HAVE DONE NOTHING TO ANYONE"

    I forget who commented thus, but how poignant that the decent people of Britain KNOW our MPs are THIEVING gravy trainers, and getting away with it, while the have-nots boil over, and are caught stealing trainers that to an MP, on a fat salary and allowances, are cheap to buy.

    WHEN WILL THE 'GOOD MEN' OF BRITAIN STOP 'DOING NOTHING'?

  • Comment number 71.

    #69 - you can get a blackberry for around £10 a month, and if you mainly use BBM you won't rack up much more than that

    Two thoughts cross my mind
    1. Revolutions are made of this
    2. There can only be so many Currys branches in easy to loot locations

    Ealing sounds scary

  • Comment number 72.

    Mindywindy:
    I've Considered what you have written, at least you got to this (eventually)

    "but these yobs should NOT be seen as "political martyrs", they had only one agenda, violence and looting"

    You got there a bit late in the day but you got there. I do hope that if you was ever unfortunate enough to have a marauding mob outside you house with your family inside, you act quick and not spend time trying to understand too much. You've got to have lived a bit first to know what I mean. You'll be then better placed to understand how dark and evil man can be; the bubble your in won't protect you because its easily popped. I know enough previous Liberals who were mugged, had their homes broken into and for some, heavy duty violence. A rape victim that totally changed her life and her husband. The common theme in such awful incidences that was easily noticed was they switched form Liberal happy clappy to hard core political right. It happens nearly every time. You can't ever imagine real fear unless you have experienced it.

    Musev ''hows my spelling? grammer is a bit dodgy I reckon but it'll do ....lol

    Ok. I'll let that one go now museV I had someone shout a smart alec comment at me the other day and he stumped me...I was too slow for a comeback..its been gnawing at me for a couple of days.

  • Comment number 73.

    It is a failure of leadership across the political spectrum. Our society has become very fragile as values have been eroded. The words of outrage at looting and lawlessness from politicians still mired in the expenses scandal, dubious media relations and worse ring hollow in our ears. We want our piece of the pie too and we don't care how we get it either.

    Nuff said?

  • Comment number 74.

    THE BBC get a bit of a kicking in the Mail for siding with the thugs and blaming the cuts etc etc etc:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023902/London-riots-Left-wing-cynics-blame-Tory-cuts-mayhem.html

  • Comment number 75.

    I wouldn`t call it revolution, more like thuggish behaviour. Britain does have its fair share of angry teens. Anyone who’s lived here will have seen these ASBOs around. If you so much as to give them a wrong look on the bus, you’d get into a lot of trouble and the police hardly ever do anything except in the most severe cases. Surely, the riots have a lot to do with the cuts and economic recession, but if you really think about it, all the signs are there; it is a crisis waiting to happen.

    The government should act swiftly to curb the riots from spreading further. We can’t let the arson go on. Dave should bring in the army to maintain order on the street. He and Aunt T should visit the worst affected areas and reassure those shop owners and families that the government will release emergency funding to help rebuild the ruined homes and shops.

    I hope Gavin and all the journalists on tonight’s programme are keeping safe. The coverage is balanced and informative – it is investigative journalism at its finest.

  • Comment number 76.

    I never bother coming on here in the mornings so your lucky as time is normally money. Well I'm up and about to go to the Airport -Lithuania, 2 days and hopefully they'll have not been listening to the BBC as your coverage has been somewhat encouraging for the average rioter. Mind you, they normally kill anybody who acts up in Lithuania. They tend to just disappear..never any fuss.

    Summery of tone of news coverage of riots:

    BBC News: Cuts and Govt and police.

    Sky News: The upset and fears to innocents and rampant criminal behaviour by rioters.

    I hope your proud of yourself BBC, I hope the Tories sell you off. And then you can all go and work at the Guardian, your natural home.

    I couldn't help but notice a Sky News reporter mention how some are hand wringing (code for BBC) and that some are Blaming the Govt (code for BBC) and that some are trying to blame the police (code for BBC) and that some are not even mentioning the criminal behaviour (code for BBC)...good reporter this fella, Mark he's called.
    I don't normally watch Sky. Pleasantly surprised with their coverage.

  • Comment number 77.

    P:S: Sack Gavin Esler as he's a mouthpiece for the Labour party...blatently so.

  • Comment number 78.

    THE STREETS OF LONDON

    England's high-streets supply alcohol at every opportunity, tobacco like sweets, a lottery to seduce the widow's mite, or the gambling shop for the heavy addict. You can also buy a TV that will feed endless anger, violence, degradation and nihilism INTO YOUR HOME, or a mobile phone that will bully you on the way to school.

    In my lifetime many controls have been removed - at the will of Westminster. Under the party system, decline is inevitable, as parties offer inducement to get re-elected. This is why I repeat:

    SPOILPARTYGAMES - DISMANTLE WESTMINSTER - INSTALL INTEGRITY

  • Comment number 79.

    "A SMALL NUMBER OF PEOPLE TAKING THEIR CHANCE TO STEAL" (Today Prog)

    Question: Was that comment about street disorder or, Parliamentary disorder?

    Hard to tell isn't it!

    Nuff sed.

  • Comment number 80.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 81.

    Just watching the morning SKY (not much better in ratings-driven vox-pop addictions - sorry KV* - but the BBC Breakfast 'news' has long since failed on the news aspect, despite my being compelled to still fund it) and things do not look good.

    Except for ratings whores. And bunch of Christmasses have come in at once. And that would be OK-ish... IF not combined with the perfect storm of having to fill a 24/7 news maw with... anything... topped off too often by clear and present agenda in the pre-pro meeting and edit suite to make sure that 'the narrative' is maintained.

    So we're doomed by our media anyway.

    However, what of our political class?

    Teresa May was just on, and simply dire. Platitudinous garbage whilst circling around what the 'Plees' patently are unable to do, cuts or no cuts, actually happening or simply planned, as a consequence of policies over decades taking their inevitable turn.

    To be fair, considering the no win she was under interrogation from the irish bloke, the only option was vapid pap. If she had succumbed to his badgering on water cannons, there would have been a community organiser/human rights lawyer taxi'd in to scream nasty party after the next break before you could mutter double standards.

    Then... Diane Abbott. Well, if the Home Secretary was full of it, this bozo was in a new league.

    And there's the rub.

    The current crop are dire, to be sure. But look what they are working with. And then look at the alternative that stands ready to pick up where they left off.

    And with the level of 'reporting' and 'analysis' and hypocritical addiction to having things every way but pushing an agenda no matter what has been demanded one minute, but then flipped on the next to suit, the public is being utterly betrayed by the political-media estate we now have.

    As I sign off for now, I note the meme of the hour is police numbers and number of arrests being made.

    On this latter, often trotted out in such situations, has there ever been any follow-up on the progress of such 'arrests'. What was done, how was this prosecuted and how was the perpetrator dealt with?

    One suspects that of those 'arrested', few will see jail, and those who do will not see it for long, or in any onerous manner.

    And those 'risking jail' in riots know it.

    Meanwhile, if you are from another, less celebrated culture in this multi-cultural society...

    Take a mobile into court and you'll be banged up for 6 months before your can say 'disrespect for the law'.

    Take a Molotov to your community and you'll be texted by a BBC producer to appear and 'explain your anger' with Laurie Penny, Johnnie Marbles, Jody Macintyre and Ken - http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/andrewgilligan/100100126/ken-livingstone-the-rioters-need-someone-to-“care-about-them-and-speak-for-them”/ - in the studio before Lord 'I ain't workin' class... I don't work' Prescott can say 'I understand what they are going through'.

    No wonder the likes of Blair, Toynbee, Cameron, Johnson and the entire BBC high command like to fly everywhere but here at the drop of a frequent flyer mile... I'm not sure I'd fancy hanging around much either.

    Whoever the BBC and its merry band of social engineers has been so keen to understand for all these years seems to be from a rather narrow, and very over-represented segment of our diverse society, for all the good it has done.

    *Just saw Dermot with a 'business leaderette' in Ealing, and it was notable that she didn't 'blame' the police, didn't see it was anything to do with Torreecutz and was livid at the rioters (sorry Emily - http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/cristinaodone/100100062/could-the-bbc-please-stop-calling-the-rioters-protesters/ ) And he seemed to see her point, so there may be some hope.

  • Comment number 82.

    "Does "multiculturalism" work? I was brought up in ethnically and culturally divided Middlesbrough. The wrong colour - school uniform - was definitely dangerous in certain parts of town. We had Catholics of largely Irish extraction, nonconformist working class English Scots and Welsh, middle class or aspiring Quakers C of E and Jews. It was quite a mix even before the New Commonwealth immigration started. A couple of my best mates were Catholics, but it might well have caused problems had I "courted" their sisters.

    Despite tensions however, we had a bigger community which largely and loosely united the sub-communities. The Catholics were perceived by some to get more than their "fair" share. But overall, the were then the least prosperous. The teetotalish, respectability-obsessed nonconformists attributed it to alcohol and being priest-ridden of course. What was the cause and what was the symptom? Perhaps it's not easy to separate?"

    I heartily agree with Sasha #47 - though my similar experience was in suburban NW London.

    I would write more but I have to go out and clean up the mess in our rural village made by yet another night or rampaging hordes (ok it was 5 or 6) of youngsters (aged 14 - 20) drawn together by social media whilst their parents were either on holiday or 15 miles away downing a few glasses of something 'chilling' over some mindless tat on the telly.

    All of them relatively comfortably off, white, and living in a green, clean well serviced pleasant land. But smashing the phone box, pulling up trees in the park, leaving cans and broken bottles where children play and dogs are walked, upturning the community maintained flower planters

    I would uphold the police putting the parents under curfew (no social life and no booze) for a month or in the cells for a night or two.

    Just one thing. Darcus Howe. Why? Surely he was meant to be in the 'Pointless' Studio.

    Ah. Ping. Light bulb moment. Maybe NN shares a studio with a game show where knowledge and intelligent application of the same has no place.

  • Comment number 83.

    '1. At 12:53 8th Aug 2011, Mistress76uk -
    The riots have nothing to do with cuts, and everything to do with the fact that a 16 year old girl was beaten up by 15 police officers.


    Emily may disagree. Though as http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/fromthewebteam/2011/08/monday_8_august_2011.html?postId=109911960#comment_109911960 demonstrates, get the right people tweeting, and it could become a very exciting story, based on current, er, 'evidence'.

    Who needs the facts when a studio full of opinion is so much cheaper... and effective.

  • Comment number 84.

    @76 The BBC allows views you don't like, therefore it must be biassed and should be sold off? Pathetic!

    There is no short term solution to this rioting which will prevent it recurring. You can talk morals all you like, but it won't make a difference - I wish it did. Short term, there will be a combination of suppression and containment in the hope that the riots run out of steam. Long term, we have to rebuild so that there really is a "Big Society". This means huge investment in communities and a reversal of the increase in inequality connived at by all political parties, most shamefully by "New (so-called) Labour".

    The alternative to that is an escalating cycle of violence and violent repression - or worse. Not for the first time, I am reminded of the "Abandoned Areas" envisioned in Robert Heinlein's dystopic view of the future described in his novel 'I Will Fear No Evil'.

    http://copperrobot.com/2011/03/stuff-i-like-the/

    Long term, we have a choice. 1) Social engineering to build a genuine 'Big Society'. 2) Genocide against the poor. 3) Carry on as we do now, in which case the end result will be 1), 2) or de-facto physically enforced social apartheid.

    Does anyone really think that the Camerons, Osbornes, Blairs or Fred Goodwins of this world can successfully preach to the ghettoes that it is their moral duty to accept their poverty and be grateful for the crumbs from the table?

    Disagree with me by all means, but in that case propose a workable alternative.

  • Comment number 85.

    I presume that kevseywevsey and JunkkMale would like to cheer us on to emulate that great white hope of Free Market prosperity - the USA.

    Lord help us all.

    Kev and Junky, please see links at 53 and critique maturely.

  • Comment number 86.

    Wasn't Darcus Howe a revelation though?
    Just because his grandson, (his sole source of information apparently), has been boasting about the frequency of his being stopped and searched to up his image with the old man, he says "They (the shop, etc owners) should just take the insurance money and forget about it" (or move on, or words to that effect)
    Let's hope his reaction would be the same if HIS home (probably somewhere a bit more salubrious these days), were torched by mindless yobs, and his family's lives put in danger.
    I hear this morning that the areas surrounding the hot spots have been blitzed by groups of burglars taking advantage of the Police's diverted attention by breaking into peoples homes and stealing what they can find. Perhaps this is also a legitimate reaction to his grandson's being stopped and searched?
    I really can't remember the last time there was a riot as a result of an old lady being mugged and beaten up by a couple of economically deprived youths.
    How sad to see a previously thoughtful and respected commentator reduced by old age and ignorance to the position of mouthpiece for a generation of fatherless ill-educated young people whose main ambition seems not to be employment or contributing to the "community" in which they live in any way but being able to boast about their confrontations with the law, and perhaps upgrading the strereo or smartphone for free when the oportunity arises.

  • Comment number 87.

    Oh dear. The Telegraph not towing the part line and spouting almost home truths:

    "The real causes are more insidious. It is no coincidence that the worst violence London has seen in many decades takes place against the backdrop of a global economy poised for freefall. The causes of recession set out by J K Galbraith in his book, The Great Crash 1929, were as follows: bad income distribution, a business sector engaged in “corporate larceny”, a weak banking structure and an import/export imbalance."

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8630533/Riots-the-underclass-lashes-out.html

    So let's just go through that check list again:
    - Bad income distribution - Check
    - a business sector engaged in “corporate larceny” - Check (just Google William K Black)
    - A weak banking structure - Doh. Check.
    - Import / Export imbalance - Errr. Check.

  • Comment number 88.

    #26 Brossen

    Well, there you have it.

    Why give any consideration to facts, background (none of which by the way ever comes in only one flavour - melted neopolitan anyone? ), intelligence or reason when there is a perfectly good conspiracy theory waiting on the shelf.

    Is this perhaps your application form for a job as a BBC reporter/presenter? No contest.


    p.s.
    The mess here wasn't too bad last night - maybe due to it being more like October than August. Thankful for small mercies.

    Raises an interesting question about how much the perps are challenged or reported. Too many of us fear that we and our property will become personal targets if we get involved with the 'low level lawlessness and 'fun' factory stuff. And round here, at least, they don't seem to carry guns or knives. Yet!

  • Comment number 89.

    @ Junkkmale #83, I have tried putting up a link to the video on youtube showing the 16 year old girl getting beaten up, but it has not been allowed by the mods :o(

  • Comment number 90.

    CONSOPIRACY THEORY #3972

    It was a consortium of Premiership Football Managers disgruntled at the timing and pointlessness (keeps creeping in – sorry) of tomorrow’s friendly. They probably got some of their soccer school candidates to get the word out.

    I predict a riot!

    Result!

  • Comment number 91.

    It is often illuminating to think about root causes.

    In the case of these riots in London, Birmingham, Leeds, Liverpool, Nottingham etc, one might ponder as to what could be a common denominator?

    This blogger would humbly suggest that it is the complete and utter failure of the State education system, which is an (in)effective monopoly, particularly in these cities.

    Somehow, I do not think this extremely large elephant will be featuring on Newsnight or elsewhere anytime soon.

  • Comment number 92.

    Incidentally, the Al Jazeera 'live' blogs currently feature individual blogs on Syria, Egypt, Libya, Yemen ... and London.

    If you are English, that is rather humiliating.

  • Comment number 93.

    Richard Bunning's posts above (#4 & #5) are well thought out and well worth considering.

    "Riots are "social explosions" - they require a spark to ignite them, a detonator to the start the violence and a power-keg to provide the main charge."

    The spark was the still unexplained circumstances that led to a man being shot dead, followed by the truly shocking beating of a 16 year old girl in the street by a group of police. (Contains adult language.)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXVfdsHmp-g&skipcontrinter=1

    The subsequent looting & rioting is opportunistic crime by teenage gang members, both black and white, who see an opportunity to confront the police openly and for 'easy' personal gain.

    The greatest concern is that a great many teenagers (and children) in inner city areas are now feeling disconnected and alienated from their own cultures (both black and white) and from wider society. That is the powderkeg.

    The real tragedy is that the youngest generation from inner city communities are turning on (and trashing) their own communities; there is realisation that this is what's happening; this fearless West Indian woman articulates it well in the face of Hackney rioters. (Contains adult language.)
    http://www.twitvid.com/4JTZH

    Cuts aren't soley to blame, this has been brewing for much longer; but cuts don't help one iota.
    This was prophetic. From July 31st 2011. 'After Haringey council shuts eight of its 13 youth clubs, local teenagers express fears that boredom will fuel violence...'.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/video/2011/jul/31/haringey-youth-club-closures-video?INTCMP=SRCH

    These riots are a serious wake-up call that there is a real crisis going on with many (not all) young people in our inner city areas. These riots have taken the concerns over postcode violence, street crime, stabbings etc to a new level. The question that needs to be addressed is how to re-engage these young people and enable them to become stakeholders in society.

  • Comment number 94.

    '85. At 09:37 9th Aug 2011, Hawkeye_Pierce
    Kev and Junky, please see links at 53 and critique maturely.'


    In general, or just on your links? If the latter I may decline, as on these threads there is a trend for some to make demands of others to work hard in progressing debate, but then scuttle to the bunker if the compliment is returned. So a definition of what you deem 'mature' could help, too.

    As a great person (84. At 09:34 9th Aug 2011, Sasha Clarkson) once said, the holding of opposing views is still (almost) fine in this country, so castigating folk for having them as opposed to articulating any alternatives is probably only proving their point. I have paraphrased slightly. Not sure about pathos, but high on irony shortfall in its own right. And mutually assured alternative demands rather founder if made personal when one can, with eyes like Puss In Boots, reasonably claim 'but they started it' to teacher.

    I am happy for you to have your little incestuous members' only backslapping club and leave you to it. But so long as I am compelled by law to co-fund it, then I'll probably stick with raising and/or tackling any arguments or service standards I don't feel good about (from what gets left out too often, to how what goes in gets 'treated').

    But I guess I'll also have to accept that the mods are cool on some, like your goodself, spending more time on those persons you feel should agree with you (even the Telegraph can pass muster, it seems, depending).

    That does however raise some historical precedents that may again need to be learned from. Hopefully not as painfully as before.

    I see the pendulum swinging from failed social engineering experiments to authoritarian over-reaction, possibly with more temporary public mandate than the long term results warrant. The Elliot Carvers in public/private sector media monopolies will rub their hands no matter what.

    Even the Graun is subtly egging on the Home Sec to dig out the water cannons, secure in its hypocrisy that as soon as that does happen they'll be in a queue to the Newsnight green room packed with commentariat sharing the PM's flight back from Tuscany, and human rights lawyers sharpening their legal aid applications, all to decry the over-reaction.

    I am in the process of grasping what's going on, in anticipation as a member of the British public (and not the curiously ill-defined Miliband. E/BBC variety) of being tasked with supporting various measures in reaction.

    So far I am of the opinion that the last political mob were inept and venal enough to cause most of it, and the current crop at the very least inept enough to be poor leaders to deal with it. If not also venal in adding their own special sauce to the rancid stew.

    I also believe that at the very least the BBC (and most media I don't have to pay for) have been very poor in their reporting, and darn near inflammatory in their 'interpreting of events' to make a bad situation a lot worse.

    Speaking of critique only, what is the BBC's 'solution'? Get back in the soul mates who still grace the studios daily as if no longer out of office, to continue the good works that have brought us to this juncture? Seems an odd time to get all precious on lack of positivity, not to mention a special level of double standard, when this seems pretty much the sole MO of your favoured media resource.

    These are just my opinions. I am allowed them as it is still a democracy that enjoys a measure of free speech.

    You are welcome to offer an alternative view. Just...try to make it on the topic and not silly snipes from a knackered high horse atop a shaky pedestal, or else the mods may see fit to intervene.

    And that... would be too funny, if also a bit tragic.

  • Comment number 95.


    James Williamson
    Northern Ireland, Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq, Afghanistan, Fireman's strike, Binmans strike and now assist in riot control in London? Its truly amazing what the good old British Tommy does for 850 quid a month....saying that, I bet a good old bit of batton charging into the most despicable filthy dolite maggots that infest the UK might be just what the doctor ordered....before a spot of leave and a pint and pie up the pub....
    13 hours ago · Like · added to fb today, our security forces. lol ( criminals)

  • Comment number 96.

    First it was the militant students, then the self proclaimed selective sheriff of Nottingham's, now we have the self-entitlement junkies running around looting ,rioting and burning the place down.

    I'll await the lefties to start moaning about police brutality when these people get rounded up , and no doubt quickly followed by a flurry of no win no fee lawyers start seeking compensation for their clients getting caught.


    Stop and Search

    No a very constructive gentleman on your programme last night, anyone would think there is a not a problem of knife or gun crime in the capital. And if the figures are anything to go by , black people are reported to be disproportionately the alleged perpetrators and disproportionately the victims of such crimes.

    Maybe the glass half full attitude is required here.
    Every stop and search that denies a knife or gun being carried on the streets potentially deters or actually stops someone from being stabbed or shot, which reduces the chances of another family having to suffering a bereavement of their young.

    Maybe that gentleman should go and talk to some of the victims families and see what they think about the use of stop and search.

    And Gavin , you could have at least have asked if the gentleman supported Operation Trident objectives ?
    Not very well briefed or fearful ? only you will know that.

    Economy

    More important than the above , but I have spent my allotted time now talking about them.

    So quickly some thoughts. The Dax seems to be getting hit the hardest , is that because the Dollar is falling in price and Germanys exports become harder to export there ?

    If so , will we be seeing some action by the Euro zone to protect Germany's export competitiveness. Like your programme suggested , ECB printing money to devalue in line with the Dollar ?

  • Comment number 97.


    #72 kev wrote:

    "Musev ''hows my spelling? grammer is a bit dodgy I reckon but it'll do ....lol"


    No it won't, it's grammar...not grammer.

  • Comment number 98.

    '89. At 10:31 9th Aug 2011, Mistress76uk wrote:
    @ Junkkmale #83, I have tried putting up a link to the video on youtube showing the 16 year old girl getting beaten up, but it has not been allowed by the mods :o(


    Thank you for this reply. Things seem to be grinding rather slowly as various folk wo/man the barricades. On which side, one can only hope common sense and decency have been their guide.

    I am sincerely interested. Your #1 was quite a surprise; the more so by being so definitive.

    Even a video of course can be open to interpretation, but I can only assume your sources to be sincere at the least.

    Once that is established, then one can look at other aspects.

    For now it just seems intriguing that 'the cause' of all this has not made it onto many MSM outlets I surf, across the political infirmament.

    Hence my interest. And desire to seek confirmation. Others would possibly deem this unnecessary for reasons of their own.

    I hope you will appreciate my caution. It would be a shame for the BBC threads to be less than responsible in what is claimed and goes through, and what is debated and suppressed to suit the agendas of those with a perceived monopoly on what is... and isn't... 'pathos' or 'mature', for example.

  • Comment number 99.

    Right - a few observations.

    The Conservatives talked in the last election about "Broken Britain" - now we have "Smashed, Broke, Burned and Looted Britain" - a pretty conclusive failure across the board, I'd say.

    I do not support, agree with or advocate rioting - all I do is to seek to undertand it and what we should DO about it - operationally on the ground, and in terms policy initiatives.

    Operational issues:

    1. Hackney police have now been out for three nights in a row - in the end the Met will buckle under this contact level before the rioters do - time is of the essence and hoping it will calm down and/or the police wil get the upper hand will not work. The operational effectiveness of the police will go down day on day - and in the end it will fail if nothing else happens.

    2. Draughting in police from other areas is Ok, but needs to be tempered with the issues that many from non-urban forces have little or no public order training/experience, are working in areas they won't know and the risk is that their own force area denuded of officers then undergoes rioting too.

    3. In NI there was a riot called White Rock II were a much smaller group of soldiers was attacked by a large group of rioters and only survived without serious casualties because they fired 100s of plastic bullets, so police units need to be big enough to hold their ground - not spread out too thinly to cover large areas, in response to public cries for "a copper on my street corner right now!"

    4. There are not enough police even with 16,000 out tonight to be able to respond to rioters operating in multiple spaced out areas who have excellent communications - they can assemble, loot, burn and vanadlaise, then melt away before a police team can be deployed. The Home Secretary is going to HAVE to switch off public mobile comms in these areas during riot events, or accept the police will always be three steps behind the rioters.

    5. The Army does have a few personnel left who have public order experience from NI - but its losing this experience rapidly through turnover of troops leaving and the Land Army is overstretched as it is - so I'm afraid if the police don't hold their own, no one should think there's a large, available and trained body of troops sitting in barracks waiting to be called out - there isn't.

    6. The recent hammering the police have taken in the media combined with service cuts and the proposal to make 2,000 Met officers redundant is now a VERY serious morale and resource iss

  • Comment number 100.

    #94 JunkkMale

    Question: What is the main cause of our current financial malaise?
    a) Too much Gvt spending (i.e. Tory line)
    b) Not enough Gvt spending (i.e. Labour line)
    c) Chinese Merchantilism
    d) Excessive debt creation creating ponzi financing (e.g. Minsky)
    e) Control Fraud / White Collar Looting by those in charge of financial institutions (c.f. William K Black)
    f) Declining cheap oil (i.e. "Net energy") to fuel economic growth
    g) Other

    (I'll permit some combinations of multiple causes - clearly a & b are mutually exclusive)

 

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