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Monday 25 July 2011

Sarah McDermott | 11:54 UK time, Monday, 25 July 2011

Norwegian police are investigating claims by Anders Behring Breivik, who has admitted carrying out Friday's twin attacks in Norway, that he has "two more cells" working with him. Steve Rosenberg is in Oslo for us, and we'll be exploring how deeply ingrained the anti-immigrant strain of thinking is in Europe.

Then Catrin Nye examines the links between Breivik and the English Defence League (EDL). Jeremy Paxman will be joined live by the EDL's leader Tommy Robinson.

And Paul Mason travels to the north east of England to hear a "mea culpa" from former business secretary Lord Mandelson, who admits New Labour didn't get everything right on the economy when they were in office. Lord Mandelson will join Jeremy live in the studio to explain how he thinks Labour needs to change in order to win back power.

Do join Jeremy for all that and more at 2230 on BBC Two.
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From earlier: The man who has admitted carrying out Friday's twin terror attacks in Norway, Anders Behring Breivik, is due to make his first appearance in court.

The hearing will be held behind closed doors, the judge has ruled.

Steve Rosenberg is in Oslo for us and will bring us the latest tonight.

Then our Economics editor Paul Mason follows former Business Secretary Lord Mandelson to the north east where he delivers a "mea culpa" about what Labour got wrong while they were in office.

Lord Mandelson joins Jeremy live in the studio later.

Comments

  • Comment number 1.

    In tonight's coverage could you consider the roll of internet postings in fermenting terrorism and extremism.

    This is an important issue fro the BBC as it has reduced its main blogs to tweteresque shouting matches which I believe there is good reason to suggest foster extremism, by allowing extremists to post and go unchallenged by reason or logic or even the facts.

    Please see:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2011/07/investigative_journalism_in_th.html#comments

    #71. Do short-form blogs encourage and foster extremism?

    When the BBC itself has taken steps to increase the output of extremists through the way it has chosen to alter its blogs isn't this something that you should look at! (On the basis of putting your own house in order!)

  • Comment number 2.

    A GOOD DAY TO ADMIT FAULT?

    'Mea-Culpa-Mandelson' - an oxymoron to grace the Guinness Book of Records.

  • Comment number 3.

    What curious and unlikely bed fellows, Paul Mason and lord Mandelson on a road trip to the North east on a labour meu culpa mission.

    This I gotta see.

    Not interested in meu culpas, we are interested in tearing up the madness of the last 30 years and turning this around before it is too late. I want to see radical policies not meu culpas, i want to see a national strategy that does not involve paying homage to big business interest or rely on the restoration of growth to prevent the majority being propelled into poverty in an age where we have supercomputers and all a manner of advanced engineering in the mechanical and biological spheres.

    I have a rather rude suggestion as to what he can do with his meu culpas... we need 'meu answers' that work not meu culpas.





    Not convinced Lord mandelson 'meu culpa' or not, or anyone else within the ranks of the incumbents would be / should be in any position to lead that charge.

  • Comment number 4.


    "Mea culpa about what Labour got wrong while they were in office"

    It would be interesting to see if Lord Mandelson's view is aligned with Maurice (Lord) Glasman's recently aired views...in light of the fact that his Blue Labour ideas have now been dropped (along with him) and the events that occured in Oslo/Norway last Friday.

    http://www.vdare.com/sailer/110724_immigration_patriotism.htm

    I also wonder on what day Paul Mason interviewed Mandelson for this piece - today?

  • Comment number 5.

    EXTREMISM (#1)

    Do the Norwegians suffer extreme TV of the kind we have?

    Nuff sed.

  • Comment number 6.

  • Comment number 7.

    WE HAVE WAYS . . . (#6)

    We all know who the atrocity SPECIALISTS are, and they take a perverse pleasure in leaving a smudged (but readable) 'fingerprint' on every 'job'.

    The Military-Industrial-Political-Espionage (NOT intelligence P-lease) Complex, has all cutting edge techniques and materials (Nano-Thermate?) available to it. And THEY don't need safety clearance on any psycho-active drug they use.

    OH YES - 'THEY' HAVE WAYS - and unlimited funding.

    Will Breivic emerge from prison believing he is Odin? You will remember that the Christ slot is taken - David Shayler has that. Now there's a thought.

    Be alert, but try not to wander into a CIA-funded Lert Group.

    The Naked Emperor is reading 1984 – as fiction.

  • Comment number 8.

    The hearing will be held behind closed doors, the judge has ruled.
    Steve Rosenberg is in Oslo for us and will bring us the latest tonight.


    'And here, with his ear pressed against a door to try and catch muffled sounds.... meanwhile here's some opinions we made up before the programme'.

    Tonight's 'speak for the country' guest list will be a doozy, I'll be bound.

  • Comment number 9.

    "I SAY CHAPS AND CHAPPESSES - ANYONE HERE SPEAKO DA NORSO WHAT?" (#8)

    Spot on Junkk. But then, we are the nation of Nelson. (;o)

  • Comment number 10.

    The current news coverage of the awful slaughter in Norway seems to be missing two key points, who was killed and the impact on Norway.

    The killer deliberately targeted the children of the political elite of the Labour movement in Norway.

    Given the difference in the size of countries it is as if 1500 children of Labour supporters were killed here in the UK.

    This is a truly horrific event, no wonder the King of Norway was in tears in church yesterday.

  • Comment number 11.

    :o) Jeremy v Peter Mandelson tonight should be entertaining tonight. Wonder if he'll do another Michael Winner and tell Jeremy to "calm down" again :p

    ...and apparently, after spending £2million, the governement have come to the conclusion that "The Only Way is Essex," good health and a nice house make us happy...
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2018501/The-Only-Way-Is-Essex-good-health-nice-house-makes-happy-says-2m-study.html

    more vajazzling anyone ;o)

  • Comment number 12.

    OF KINGS AND QUEENS (#10)

    Would that OUR Queen might be moved by OUR plight. Westminster rides rough-shod over honour, democracy, law and people - this is no time for ‘Constitutional Inertia’.

    SOMEONE of high standing (perhaps made all-the-more legitimate by virtue of 'risking all') is needed to rise and be counted (on the count of 'ONE' perhaps) as refusing to watch this nation destroyed, from within, by those who deem themselves HONOURABLE -WITHOUT HONOUR.

    Noblesse oblige?

  • Comment number 13.

    Mandelson may have more than a few questions to answer, but the real story for me is the impending GDP figures showing at best flatline - at worst the beginnings of the next recession.

    Is it me, or didn't any of the politicians, pundits, experts or mandarins actually do any economics @ school/college?

    Brown's big problem is that once the credit crisis hit he was going to get the blame for it what ever happened & lose the election - the fact that it started in the USA and spread through the banking system like wildfire wouldn't cst any ice with the Murdoch press lined up to do him over.

    Brown did two things - he bailed out the banks with £100 Bn+ and he brought forward capital spending projects to stimulate the economy - Darling's stimulus package. These measures stopped UK PLC going back to bartering and kept us from going into recession - indeed, the stimulus probably contributed to holding spending down in in the 1st 2 qtrs after the election.

    We now have an asset in bank holdings of £100 Bn - and a government committed to taking £110 Bn out of the economy which is flatlining, against the wailing sounds of the terrible twins of the Euro Crisis and the USA debt crisis. Quite why we can't announce a plan to repay the bank bail out one-off borrowing in the medium term by selling off the bank assets, I don't know, but the ConDems seem wedded to the idea of drastically and rapidly cutting aggregate demand.

    Surely any teenager doing GCSE economics will tell you that taking such a huge slice of aggregate demand out of the economy whilst living standards are falling under inflationary pressure from rising costs of imports is nothing short of suicidal?

    The libertarian NeoCons in both coalition parties are deluding themselves about the effect of a few marginal bits of deregulation and taking a big chunk out of the state will magically lead to the private sector expanding? This is BLIND FAITH, not real politique!

    The LibDems junked their election manifesto commitment to a more measured approach to spending cuts, the excuse being that the Tories won the most seats and that the economy was far worse than they thought once they'd seen the figures. Clegg really believed in the Orange Book dream of hacking back the state and allowing the private sector to grow to solve all our troubles. It is clear that this isn't going to happen and if Osborne carries on with his plan, we're going to join the PIIGS, but without the ECB to hide behind, Sterling will collapse.

    The same fate awaits the coal

  • Comment number 14.

    GOVERNMENT THINKING TANKS AGAIN - WISDOM STILL ABSENT (#11)

    Just as a Fox would find 'Happiness' to be a bloody, ripped Bunny, hanging lifeless from its jaws, our Mammonic leaders find the predictable delectable.

    Who will deliver us? (See # 12)

  • Comment number 15.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 16.

  • Comment number 17.

    In Anders Behring Breivik's manifesto he explains why he operates alone. The two cells is complete bunkum.

    Open justice and a free press are going to be sorely tested with this case.

    The judge should not have agreed to the prosecution request to breach Anders Behring Breivik's human rights.

  • Comment number 18.

    13 chopped off ending!

    The same fate awaits the coalition as Fianna Fail....

  • Comment number 19.

    #10 John Waddell wrote:

    "The killer deliberately targeted the children of the political elite of the Labour movement in Norway."


    What were they all doing there on the island together?

  • Comment number 20.

    Why Lord "expletive deleted" Mandelson? :-(

    The 1997 rebranding as "New Labour" is throroughly discredited. Since then, nobody has done more than Mandelson to lose Labour credibility, members and support.
    The Labour Party should listen to what he says and do the opposite.

  • Comment number 21.

    I await, with baited breath, a debate - no, TWO debates! (in reply to 10th June's and tonight's) - regarding what the Conservatives must do to win an outright majority in 2015.

    These no-doubt-already-pencilled-in debates may even counter the idea that "Newsnight" is the mouthpiece of the 'Labour' party and a cue for the rest of the 'BBC'.

    Maybe the debates could follow an investigation of how the lessons of mass immigration and obsession with 'diversity' have not been heeded. Take some evidence from "museV"'s and "brossen99"'s links indicating a maintenance of, or building, not lessening, narrative that concern about mass immigration is nothing but frothing-at-the-mouth bigotry.

  • Comment number 22.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 23.

    richard, my posts @ #15 and #22 were a reply to your #13. Unfortunately, despite my best efforts, it remains "defamatory" and "encourages unlawful activity.".

    in short, i wondered if the obvious consequences of the "cuts" and "austerity" programs are what is actually INTENDED, as opposed to what is claimed will happen from them.

    i named names, and went into too much detail. No doubt, in a few years what i wrote will be accepted wisdom, but for now i risk (and the BBC also if they publish) "court action". I hope you can read between the lines. I wish you didn't have to. Innocent until proven guilty, of course, even if you are a Chancellor. You would have liked to read it!!

  • Comment number 24.

    "Jeremy Paxman will be joined live by the EDL's leader Tommy Robinson."

    what, again??? {bleep}ing Teacher's Pet!!


    why not give another of the bloggers a chance? Hope he makes more sense than he did last time, what do you reckon, Muse?

  • Comment number 25.

    Cameron misjudgment or possibly yet another potential scam on the electorate ???

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2018405/Rupert-Murdoch-scandal-Phone-hacking-inquiry-judge-urged-come-clean.html

  • Comment number 26.

    Since when did political parties have a youth movement? -other than the Nazies and Putins nationalists youth brigade.

    John @1 wrote: "Do short-form blogs encourage and foster extremism?"
    What extreamism do you find unpalatable? the fascist socialist left or the far right?

    My personable unpalatable political ideology is Liberalism. A close second is Marxism.

    One mans freedom of speech is anothers mans blah blah blah blaaaa.
    Polite speech never needed protecting.

    John @1 also wrote

    "When the BBC itself has taken steps to increase the output of extremists through the way it has chosen to alter its blogs isn't this something that you should look at! (On the basis of putting your own house in order!)"

    So you want to move the goal posts now do you. You don't like what you hear so you complain that the BBC needs to get its "house in order"

    I think George warned us about that kinda thinking! There's a certain intolerance - unpalatable woudn't you say...you know, like a double standard.

    Interesting side note: the authorites had the bomber/gumman on their radar. Call me a conspiracy theorist...

  • Comment number 27.

    #19.
    At 19:56 25th Jul 2011, museV wrote:

    #10 John Waddell wrote:

    "The killer deliberately targeted the children of the political elite of the Labour movement in Norway."


    What were they all doing there on the island together?


    Around 1,000 young supporters of Norway’s Labour Party were making their way over to Utøya this week, an island in the Tyrifjord that’s often viewed as an incubator for future Labour Party leaders. Detractors call it a breeding ground for a relatively small clique of would-be power mongers.

    The summer camp for members of Labour’s youth group AUF (Arbeidernes ungdomsfylking) has launched the political careers of many a Labour Party leader. Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg was a fixture at the camp in his youth and remains keen to visit every summer. Both he, Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Støre and former Prime Minister Gro Harlem Brundtland were due to make appearances at this year’s camp during its five-day run that began Wednesday.

    Full article is here

    http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/07/21/labours-summer-camp-opens/

  • Comment number 28.

    from last night:

    the norwegian - what press did he read? Who owns it?


    the Good norwegians: do not feel guilty tomorrow [today] about listening in to the terrorist. For knowing what he said, and his justifications, will better enable you to answer and discredit those beliefs.

    remember this is a man who believed that planting bombs, and massacring innocent children, was justified in order to start a program of ethnic-racial cleansing across Europe. He SHOULD be given a platform, so all sensible, normal, moral and sane citizens can reject his arguments. For what kind of human CAN believe such? And the BBC journo was entirely wrong: he DID NOT need to slaughter defenceless children to "get a platform", - like everybody else, he could express his views through the internet. This was not a "desperate attempt to be heard", it was an act of cold-blooded terrorism, in order to start ethnic cleansing and probably "death camps".

    peace.

  • Comment number 29.

    Very lively debate by Jeremy with Steve Lennon tonight! I hadn't realised Lennon had been banned from peaceful protest. Breivik had discredited the EDL and was against it, and anyone can write on facebook.

  • Comment number 30.

    #26. kevseywevsey wrote:

    "There's a certain intolerance - unpalatable woudn't you say...you know, like a double standard."

    The only acceptable intolerance is that of intolerance itself!

    Kev, my gripe with the BBC is that it has deliberately changed the structure of its blogs in such a way that it enable and facilitates extremists. It has done this deliberately and wantonly in full knowledge of what it is doing. The expansion of the twitterisation/tabloidisation of communication and debate is hugely unwise and dangerous to democracy.

    You claim to the a liberal - I hope you are not aligning yourself with the libertarian wing of your fellow travellers.

  • Comment number 31.

    Do the BBC and especially newsnight really need to go down the road of demonising those they disagree with..it don't work anymore. Get outta your bubble newsnight folk. Take a look at your viewing figures for goodness sake!

    The richest country in the world is the most in debt. Obama wants to raise the debt ceiling but not control spending. They say its 14 trillion debt. I reckon you can double that and add 10 trillion. Obama has spent too much ...just like all Marxists always do -and he wants to spend more. I'm still reeling about the retirement of the shuttle and 10k NASA jobs to save money whilst he financed wasteful public spending. Never has a President done so much damage in such a short space of time.

    Why have you got Mandelson on. He only ever worked as a TV researcher and then got into politics. How can you listen to a man who hasn't run a business or provided a product/service ...ever!..why do you bother with hacks like this man. Dripping with ego is the only thing this man is good at.

  • Comment number 32.

    I was very concerned that Jeremy was unable to challenge Tommy Robinson's continuing reference to the 'threat of Islam'. He clearly found it hard to get a work in edge-ways unfortunately. Maybe he felt that Mr Robinson had made a noose for his own neck. But I was left feeling very frustrated.

  • Comment number 33.

    John from hendon.
    Consider that maybe people are airing their views more readily..also consider the past damage of Political Correctness and how it straight jacketed most minds...people are venting John..thats all it is.

  • Comment number 34.

    POTS AND KETTLES IN THE IRONY AGE

    Pointedly delivered by Jeremy: "The man who thought he could defend his country's values, by murdering its children, is in jail tonight." (verbatim)

    But what of OUR man who thought he could defend his country's children by murdering its values (and thousands of Johnnie Foreigner's children)? Is he anywhere NEAR to jail tonight? No, he is swanning the world, acceptable in high places, THEREBY PROVING TO IMPRESSIONABLE YOUNG MEN THAT SLAUGHTER IS OK, IF YOU BELIEVE IN YOURSELF.

    In the High Court of St Tony, Breivic has no case to answer.

    In passing: it seems 'Intelligence' tagged Breivic, buying chemicals, some time before the event, but THEY FOUND REASON not to follow through. All who are familiar with 9/11 and 7/7 narratives, with recognize the tell-tale signature. This is the apparent crass behaviour that mocks us all under faux De-MOCK-CRASS-y.

    Jeremy would have done better to dissect out the kernel of validity in Mr EDF's rant, rather than to discredit him out of hand. Oh well, next time maybe.

    In passing: I heard nothing of any import from Mandelson.

  • Comment number 35.

    robinson: that "wave of anger" is largely due to the islamophobia you have been a central part of building.

    what "effect" is Islam having on the UK?? Islam certainly *exists* in the UK, and has many white-skinned, pale-faced, tonky-honky converts. But exactly what effect has Islam over the *whole* UK? We already had gangs, and ignorance, and intolerance,
    - and those are a function of youth disillusionment, high unemployment, and a feeling of exclusion from society. In fact most devout Muslims are identical in character to their Christian counterparts, as stephen would have been well aware. So i am left wondering what exactly this major "effect" IS, allowing people in the UK to freely choose "Islam" as their religion of preference? Perhaps one of you guys here could help me out?

    tommy, you're banned from protesting because you were violent. U know that.

    i AM glad to hear the norwegian found the EDL too moderate, (if his words can be believed considering he left them to be read openly), and very much relieved to hear from Tommy that he "does not expect a similar attack in the UK within the next 10 years", and that he *personally* rejects the philosophy of violence. If anyone would like to guess the answer, what would his response have been to the question: "Do you also reject calling for violence, as a political tactic?" have been?

    i also have to wonder: what is the EDL's *position* of "pure english"* converts to Islam?



    *lol:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/fromthewebteam/2011/07/friday_22_july_2011.html?postid=109772546#comment_109772546


    if *I* became Muslim, under rule by the edl, presumably i'd either be forced to leave, or renounce my freely chosen religion - is that right??

    without suggesting that there are any edl members who post here, would someone like to guess their policy-stance on this one?

    i could probably read their website, but would be any more honest than the tories, or labour...

    i'll shut up now. Have more to write later, need a break.

  • Comment number 36.

    :o( I was interrupted by a phone call when Mandelson came on, so will have to watch it on iPlayer later. Grrrrrrrrrrr.

  • Comment number 37.

    the People of Norway, know that the rest of the World shares your grief. We may not show it, but the good part of all of us is mourning with you.

  • Comment number 38.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 39.

    kevsey and 'john from hendon': rofl, seriously. You guys should form a comedy act. The wing-nut-"2 Johns" lol :)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bremner,_Bird_and_Fortune

  • Comment number 40.

    i bet stephen lennon would actually enjoy and appreciate a land trip by bus through Muslim lands, from turkey to pakistan. I really do. Especially with someone who has been there before. I wonder if the "Gervais, and Merchant" would be interested?

  • Comment number 41.


    Norway shooting: Glenn Beck compares dead teenagers to Hitler youth
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8660986/Norway-shooting-Glenn-Beck-compares-dead-teenagers-to-Hitler-youth.html

    Who, in their right mind, send their kids to political rallies?

  • Comment number 42.

    @ Mindy #40 - you're comparing Karl Pilkington to Steve Lennon? Good grief!

  • Comment number 43.

    ~42: ...i went to the Scouts. Do you know the movements history?

  • Comment number 44.

    Did anyone else notice that JP winked to PM moments before the end of the interview?

  • Comment number 45.

    roflmao@#42

  • Comment number 46.

    #35 not been allowed yet? (1:04am).

  • Comment number 47.

    no #35 yet. On to TW 03:02. worried.

  • Comment number 48.

    btw, programme's can also be engineered in their stories to discredit individuals through deiberate story-telling by the 'Elite'. I'been writing for 10 years, and i've been noticed (i guess, and not just in the UK). Been expecting it. Bit insulting if it *didn't* happen, really. TW 03 was before Lord Patten, and just 'feels' good to me; exactly like pre-9/11 reaction Ally McBeal on Fox. And Fox cancelled the very popular 'Firefly' series after the first series & 9/11, ...why?

    programs, films and documentaries are NOT objective viewpoints and explanations of reality - they are also often purveyors of emotional information designed to subvert thought. All 'sides' do this: the question really is their underlying morality. And how much external influence they have been under when they were created.

    and how much what seems 'incidental' is actually the main purpose. This is one of the first things Media-Studies students learn.

    education is most dangerous to those who wish to control others, without their knowledge. I have written more about this from NN tonight: just waiting for NN to post #35 first.

  • Comment number 49.

    ...still waiting for #35!! [02:42]

  • Comment number 50.

    torchwood 03: 02 watched, next 'avatar' - b4 bed. Hmmm on TW: 03. Didn't watch 04: 02 tonight, i imagine it was suitably 'magical'?? One good definition of 'magic' is "science not yet explained well", and that is itself a hint about Reality. And how much of it can be controlled. I think Youtube is awesome.

    hope avatar is good, people recommended it to me. Probably better in 3D..?

  • Comment number 51.

    and STILL no allowance of #35!

    [feels like i'm talking to myself now.. :( ]

    [is used to US/Oz posters...]


    ... now going to watch avatar.

  • Comment number 52.

    US debt crisis

    I suspect nobody really knows what to do with the debt crisis in the US. If US is downgraded by the rating agencies, it will raise their borrowing costs on the bond market and accelerate the process to default, and if default occurs, it will cause the US dollar to lose its status as the world`s reserve currency (that is goodbye to low inflation), and possibly a second round of credit crunch. It may sound insane but I think cutting spending and tackling deficits are the least evil of all medicines.

    P.S. the bike partisan is genius. :D

    English Defence League

    I am intrigued - how many people are actually supporting the EDL on social media like Facebook? Why is the BBC giving them a platform to advertise their political agenda on its flagship news programme like NN? The Norwegian gunman was obviously deluded and a psychopath. He is proving his objection to Islamic immigration by killing a bunch of teenagers of his own race - exactly what his strategy is designed to achieve is not clear. I remember when Question Time first invited Nick Griffin of the BNP party onto the programme, I thought to myself, 'alright it is time for me to go' and so I did.

  • Comment number 53.

    'more or less anything else that takes our fancy'

    Was going to concede that's your right, but considering the unique nature of the funding of such efforts, maybe not without comment.

    It's getting easier to understand the audience figures.

    Like Jeremy Vine's 'debates' on radio, the objective seems to be to get, or manufacture or posit extremes (even if they don't seem to exist) and then throw them into the cockpit.

    The BBC doesn't seem very interested in social cohesion at all.

    The top listed folk on various researchers, producers, editors & 'reporters' speed dials would be revealing, one suspects, of a world not very representative of the UK so often claimed as being 'spoken for'.

    Luckily, for some, matters mobile are of course off the menu.

    Twitter is, of course 'in', as a source and a means of holding rallies, as these seem also in vogue amongst some who are born to lead.

    Not sure it's too representative. And in any case, even if it throws up facts that don't suit, when you control the airwaves there is always the edit suite.

  • Comment number 54.

    "THE GREATEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD" (Barack Obama)

    Those who cannot hear the output of their own mouths are doomed to repeat it AND THINK IT TRUE!

    I cannot help feeling that unless BO works out where the smell is coming from, he is doomed to lead a nation of GREATEST DAMAGE TO PLANET AND MANKIND - both physical and psychological - until that nation topples under the weight of its own hubris.

    Clearly: NO HE CAN'T!

  • Comment number 55.

    Just watched Jeremy's interview with Mandelson on BBCi Player. Loved the way he squirmed when confronted with the fact that he was at a party by Elizabeth Murdoch just days before the Milly Dowler revelations :p

  • Comment number 56.

    @ MuseV #44 - Jeremy wasn't winking, he normally makes his left eye smaller when he's concentrating on a specific question. Have a closer look when he's on air.

  • Comment number 57.

    #27 John Waddell

    Thanks for the info. and link.

    But, as others have commented above, since when did political parties start having 'youth movements' since before the second world war?

    Children should not be encouraged to enter politics. And political leaders most certainly should not be groomed from their childhood years.

    Just take a look at the career politicians that are currently running the show here now.

    They have no experience of living in the real world, have never held down a real job or run a business, or achieved anything of real use and value.

    As barrie oft says we always end up with another one.

  • Comment number 58.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 59.

    BAD BLOGDOG! (#58)

    My 'offending' post was graced with Literary and popular comedy references, and an oblique comment on 'Talent' salaries - a public domain issue. I included a gentle tilt at UK76's sycophancy.

    In your basket!










  • Comment number 60.

    #13 richard bunning wrote:

    "Is it me, or didn't any of the politicians, pundits, experts or mandarins actually do any economics @ school/college?"



    It's probably you...as all of 'them' studied at the Austrian/Chicago school of economics!

    (you probably didn't study PPE at Oxford/Cambridge or economics at the LSE either)


    Economics is now a 'busted flush'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/stephanieflanders/2009/07/is_economics_a_busted_flush.html

    Classical economists were effectively moved aside in academia and elsewhere in favour of Chicago/Austrian School anarchists who worship deregulation and promote egalitarianism + caveat emptor.

  • Comment number 61.

    'Not winking... making one eye smaller'

    I am citing Douglas Adams on another thread.

    My favourite of all time is the definition (not sure if his) of flying: 'Aim at the ground, and miss'.

  • Comment number 62.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 63.

    "Narrowing of a person's eyes can indicate evaluation, perhaps considering that something told to them is not true"

    Source: http://changingminds.org/techniques/body/parts_body_language/eyes_body_language.htm

  • Comment number 64.

  • Comment number 65.

    "DELUDED MASS-MURDERER FANTASIST" (BBC news 1.00 pm)

    Both are culpable. One is more culpable than the other - apparently.

    Democracy? Rule of Law?

    Nuff said.

  • Comment number 66.

    ECONOMICS? WHAT IS THE ERROR BAND?

    I have asked before. I simply do not believe the various factors of 'economics' have a signal-to-noise ratio that allows '0.2' to register, let alone be taken as significant, and reported as such.

    Come on all you posters who argue this stuff back and forth; WHAT IS THE ERROR BAND?

  • Comment number 67.

    funny how all the whackoes who take people out are on the extreme right, the Oklahoma bomber, the Italian train bomber (1971) Musso, Hitler, Pol Pot, all divvies from the far right and now the Norwegian mass murderer who, he says, has associations with the far right in this country, we do not need it....we already have a far right government thank you....

  • Comment number 68.

    #67 stevie

    You are very confused, as you do not know your left from your right!

    The far-right ARE currently in control of the UK and of America as well, that's why they are both in such an economic mess. The far-right are libertarians/anarchists. The US Constitution is far-right. The Nazis were in practice and ideology left-wing socialists, i.e. statists, they went to war against anarchism not statism. Compare the US Constitution (which is individual rights based) with the Chinese Constitution (which is Stalinist, and duties based). Then see the EU Lisbon Treaty with its 53 Articles of rights. What do you notice? What does it proscribe in Article 2?

    Note: It's behaviour and its regulation which matters.

    Would Anders Breivik had done what he did if he had lived in a statist country? How would he have been dealt with in a statist country had he done there what he did in Norway?

  • Comment number 69.

    RE: 67

    Adolf Hitler was leader of Germany's National Socialist Party.

    Pol Pot was leader of the Khmer Rouge - the Communist Party of Kampuchea

    Robert Mugabe is a self-described Marxist

    Josef Stalin - who never really gets the credit he deserves as a genocidal mass-murderer - was leader of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and a self-described Marxist.

    Nicolae Ceaușescu was leader of the Romanian Communist Party and leader of the Socialist Republic of Romania.

    Yes. I see what you mean.

  • Comment number 70.

    Since when has jeremy paxman had trouble interrupting someone, even when they speak with barely a pause? I couldn't believe his "interview" last night with the EDL man......if the idea is that he/his organisation loses credence/condems itself by letting him speak uninterrupted, why even bother having an interviewer present.
    I was very disappointed, particularly given Paxman's normal style of interview, which was just what such a man demands, particularly on a programme that prides itself on its depth of analysis.

  • Comment number 71.

    mods, still no #35? If you are too cowardly to post it (despite giving the edl leader an actual platform on the show), then send it back.

  • Comment number 72.

    post #35: maybe you were right mods, was not in a very temperate mood after that night's show.

    ----

    Mandleson:
    nuLabour created employment largely by increasing bureaucracy, often in quangoes - and privatised as many of them as possible, so it became privately profitable, and incidentally pushing up the cost of Government itself. The Tories created the whole scam of privatisation when they were LAST in office, all nuLabour did was increase the scale.

    here's a list of possible employment strategies:

    1. create valuable employment opportunities, through State support in small scale companies and direct investments,
    2. create useless employment opportunities, pushing paper around for mammoth Social-Engineering ideas.
    3. destroy the entire economy by throwing millions of people onto benefits queues, bankrupting the entire Nation.

    if this was a multi-choice test, where would you tick for both nuLabour and Tories strategies?


    the housing increase led the "economic growth" that Meddlesome talked about, which was a huge rise in consumer debt to purchase largely foreign-built goods, all based on the back of artificially rising house prices - along with the deregulation of debt. All deliberate policies, and have been followed across the large part of the Western world under the 'control' of the Banksters. Needless to say, this was to allay the social anger that the majority would have felt from the prosperity and wealth generated of the 80s, 90s and noughties, which in reality completely avoided them. The rich grew phenomenally rich, and everybody else went into permanent debt.

    So in fact, Tony Blairs nuLabour's "economic miracle" was indeed just largely a continuation of the previous Tory policies, and both Parties knew that at some point the debasing of the currency, and the cost of paying private-for-profit companies for contracts formerly done by 'non-profit-making' civil servants, would come home to roost. And now those who live on yachts are hoping the bills will be paid by those who did not benefit at all from the colossal wealth creation, but will now have even the basic economic rights stripped from them.

    can't trust EITHER of the Tories or nuLabour.


    there we are - Mandleson STILL wants a privatised Govt, he mumbled through saying it but at least he's honest on that.

    Mandy on Education rebuff: oookaaay... science education is often more expensive than the arts or humanities, because there has to be a certain amount of equipment for actual research. nuLabour preferred to sponsor the kind of education offered by that new private university, - and import skilled labour that other countries had already paid to educate. Same with the NHS.

    Cheaper education - but NOT TO SAY the humanities are worth less, btw!! In actual fact, ALL education has suffered in the last 30 years, although it has to be said that nuLabour's investment in new buildings and repairs had an huge impact on many areas around the country. And i'm sure teachers would prefer nuLabour's modest increases in pay compared to the Tories actually SLASHING their pay and conditions. Call it a guess. Think of it this way - if the general population had had a good grasp of economics, would we be in this mess now? Perhaps, but the lies would have had to have been more complex. A good education is one of the greatest gifts that can be given!

    (note that Iceland has the world's highest literacy rates - and what has happened in their financial/banking scandals!)


    Globalisation/"what is wrong with Britain": for Britain to take full part in Globalisation, then we need the BEST and most meritocratic education system possible. The class system is what is destroying us, it is preventing the feeling of community we need for the UK to get through the current and future crises. Instead of condemning 70% of the UK's children because they were born to families that are relatively poor, the UK should be looking at education as a way for its wealth of potential talent be released. Many middle-class people have travelled to India and been shocked by the poverty in such a rich country, and strongly agreed with articles informing India that it has a duty to well-educate its citizens and reduce poverty. Yet what about the poverty and lack of opportunity here in the UK?

    the Germans are not discussing closing down the humanities funding, in order to push engineering and science - instead, they simply spend nearly double what the UK spends per State-pupil. They are not as reliant upon importing professionals in Engineering and Science. Mike Gove is talking about having schools run by non-professional volunteers. Which country do you think is best investing in the future generations?

    Mandleson: what an arch-spinner. Amazing ability.

    would be awesome to have a transcript of ALL his speech.


    on milliband: tommy robinson has more chance of being elected than ed miliband, lol. Hmmm... :'(


    meddlesome was completely honest regarded the murdochs. I believe him completely! He really IS clean regarding Murdoch! [yes, i was surprised as well!!]

    of all the people... it just goes to show, eh?!

  • Comment number 73.

    63. At 11:25 26th Jul 2011, Mistress76uk
    "Narrowing of a person's eyes can indicate evaluation, perhaps...


    perhaps, perhaps...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_fcG9GXeRw

    Entire storylines have, and indeed these days are, based on less.

    Personally, I think it may (It's like 'could' in 99% of all science headlines) be more a prelude to something else entirely...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-rFT-uHm4w

  • Comment number 74.

    Pol Pot, Stalin and Hitler were not of the left, they were mass murderers and not worthy of description to any political party, the left in Spain in 1936 was left, Castro in Cuba defeating Batista was left, Allende in Chile was left. The Kevs of this world always confuse left idealism with butchery nurtured in right wing nutjobs, this nut in Oslo is in a long line of screwballs usually festering in trailer parks in the US....

  • Comment number 75.

    RE: 74

    Do you read your own posts?

    In 64 you said

    " ... Hitler, Pol Pot, all divvies from the far right ... "

    and yet in 74 you bizarrely state

    "... Pol Pot, Stalin and Hitler were not of the left, they were mass murderers
    and not worthy of description to any political party ..."

    So which is it? Is Pol Pot, who was after all, the General Secretary of the Communist Party of Kampuchea, right wing or "not worthy of description to any political party"? Not that your answer matters very much because in the real world he was of course left wing and the instigator of a savagely murderous socialist revolution that killed two million people (give or take half a million). Just as Uncle Joe, General Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, was left wing. By the way, do you know that the Spanish Republicans of 1936 - that even you identify as proper leftists - were closely allied with Stalin's USSR and that he supplied them with most of their weapons?

    The blunt reality is that if you are looking at so many dead bodies that you can't even count them, then the perpetrator will be a self-proclaimed socialist, communist, marxist or some other breed of leftist. Which reminds me, Slobodan Milošević and Ratko Mladić were both members of the Yugoslav communist party; remind me again, how many Bosniaks were murdered in Srebrenica in 1995 on Mladic's orders?

 

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