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Monday 14 February 2011

Sarah McDermott | 11:33 UK time, Monday, 14 February 2011

Here's what we are planning for tonight's programme:

Tim Whewell is still in Egypt where security forces are removing the final protesters from Cairo's Tahrir Square after the new military rulers vowed to dissolve parliament and suspend the constitution.

Tonight we'll be asking if the army can be trusted to dismantle the old order and usher in democracy.

We have an interview with Ben Drew, better known as Plan B, the British rapper, singer-songwriter, actor and film director from Forest Gate, who says he was labelled a failure at a very young age.

And we have a personal film from celebrated children's writer Michael Morpurgo about the effect of conflict on the children of Gaza and Israel.

Join Jeremy at 10.30pm on BBC Two.

Comments

  • Comment number 1.

    Gaddafi trying to begin war

    http://af.reuters.com/article/tunisiaNews/idAFLDE71C0KP20110213?sp=true

    ...this is who we let off the Lockerbie Bombings......SICKENING.

  • Comment number 2.

    Mistress:
    And I thought the Revolution was a good thing in Egypt..so we was told by the lame stream media - such as from the BBC. Oh the smiling happy people really do have an effect on the idiots here back home. "Oh they do want change, let them have it"..and I'm sure they do. The worry is who they open the door to;who are gonna be the new faces of power? The Muslim Brotherhood are doing very well in playing down their agenda, some nice folk who want to facilitate change, they want to help.. I recall the same was said in 1979 (i was 14 at the time)..with the full support of the mental libs everywhere. "Ops didn't see that coming".. well you never do, do you!
    Gaddafi trots out something he could have only done after an event such as what we've all witnessed from Egypt..never before, certainly not public. I call this repositioning of a sort..certainly of a sort wouldn' you say. How do you think Israel will respond with Gaddafi ducks' sentiments. Wouldn't you twitch some.

    I've never heard or read Islam as described as green before; and we in the west are described as white. Gaddaffi is either a bit colour blind or just not very good with descriptive analogy. He's very good a scaring people mind.

    Meanwhile in a smoke filled room. Another big fat industrialist/banker/president-operator pulls on a cigar and moves another chess piece.

  • Comment number 3.

    :p I'd already said the Egyptian "Revolution" was going to be the same as the Iranian Revolution...and with the Muslim Brotherhood as the main opposition......if they thought they had it bad, watch out....

    I've heard Islam being described as green before, according to this site:

    http://www.religionfacts.com/islam/symbols.htm

    "after Muhammad, only the caliphs were allowed to wear green turbans. In the Qur'an (Surah 18:31), it is said that the inhabitants of paradise will wear green garments of fine silk."

  • Comment number 4.

    DAVE NEVER MENTIONS BROKEN DEMOCRACY

    Dave listed a number of aspects of brokenness in 'Broken Britain, but he left out BROKEN DEMOCRACY.

    The most telling indicator of our BROKEN DEMOCRACY is that, in Delusional Dave, WE HAVE GOT OURSELVES ANOTHER ONE.

    If the Westminster Model of governance, keeps on delivering devious poseurs who manipulate us with contempt, lining their pockets and elevating their chums, then DEMOCRACY IS BROKEN. And Dave is not the man to mend it.

    SPOILPARTYGAMES.

  • Comment number 5.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 6.

    MODERATING BEYOND THE CALL OF DOGWHISTLE

    My post #5 was researched, factual and pertinent. The Blogdog has exceeded his authority. Does any poster here know where to complain about such canine over-exuberence?

  • Comment number 7.

    Understand this; the Egyptian Army, as I have said before, here and in other places, are respected by the people as the deliverers of the nation from the British colonialists; remember Nasser and Suez?

    The Army on its part will take the rebuilding of the country seriously, appreciating the historically important position it holds in the country - just like the army in Turkey.

    The Army will do all it can to keep the Brotherhood in its box; it is in no-one's interests apart from Islamist extremists to see the Brotherhood gain a pivotal role in Egypt.

    Unlike in other countries, the Egyptians can trust the army.

  • Comment number 8.

    sorry for my post the other day that had to be removed

    A protestor said that if needs be people would protest in Tahrir square

    If we protested and gathered in the square outside Parliament the police would remove us by all means at their disposal,

    the argument in defence of this might be that the Government can instruct them to do this because we live in a democracy, but that said is that a licence for a Government to behave in an undemocratic way?

  • Comment number 9.

    7 Kashi.....intuition tells me you are right about the army...but have you more by way of support for your position than your slightly authoritarian demand that we "understand this!"?

  • Comment number 10.

    Cameron is like the whackos you see at bus stops telling you we are all going to hell......only he is supposed to be the Prime Minister...

  • Comment number 11.

    '6. At 4:10pm on 14 Feb 2011, barriesingleton wrote:
    Does any poster here know where to complain about such canine over-exuberance?


    I can suggest where, but as to whether that gets you any further is another matter. Helen Boaden is pretty much as high as it gets editorially, but as her staff ignore what she mandates it's an interesting question as to what value the system, or she represents.

    However, it appears she's apparently rather proud of the fact that if things get as far as her desk, she simply bins 'em.

    But at least market rates get paid, if not attention.

    That's what makes things so 'unique'. Or, maybe, a dogs dinner?

    Anyway, time to pop over and see if our Tim is still finding flowers blossoming from gun barrels or Jeremy Bowen thinks we shouldn't listen to Israeli politicians as they tend to err on the side of Israel's interests (the very idea), which would never do, hence the need for 'balance' to counter such things. Because, like that's not a country that needs to worry about those around and about, right?

    '1. At 12:27pm on 14 Feb 2011, Mistress76uk wrote:
    http://af.reuters.com/article/tunisiaNews/idAFLDE71C0KP20110213?sp=true

  • Comment number 12.

    'We have an interview with Ben Drew, better known as Plan B, the British rapper, singer-songwriter, actor and film director from Forest Gate, who says he was labelled a failure at a very young age.

    Which evidently traumatised him to such a degree that he failed completely to make a go of things on his own bat, to the extent that he ends up on a late night news programme not at all trying to cop a R1 slot a la radio 4's nanny.

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/lindsayjohns/100075959/im-black-i-love-radio-4-and-i-dont-want-to-be-patronised/

    Maybe Chris Evan's career path will seem him taking Mr. Paxman's mantle soon?

    Or does one sense a latest cuts, Cuts, CUTS!!!!!!!! microcosm being deployed, possibly again without the interviewee or lurking opportunistic pol being troubled by suggesting where, if not them, the axe might fall as.. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8688470.stm

    Sometimes it's not as easy as hiking the licence fee a bit more as customers opting out isn't an option.

  • Comment number 13.

    This was interesting, on a variety of levels, not least of all pondering what gets reported, or not, and why (vs, what does, and why), when the state of TV finds aspects of scrutiny a bit too close for comfort...

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/richardspencer/100076040/how-the-dubai-model-of-development-did-for-mubarak/

    Maybe time to buy shares in Stead & Simpson?

  • Comment number 14.

    Does anyone have a rough breakdown of how the three billion pounds a year is spent at the BBC?

    Surely they don`t need to cut hard news and current affairs programmes when anyone could churn out stuff Doctor Who and Graham Norton and charge it up to the Yanks it is designed to please?

  • Comment number 15.

    Watching BBC 2 now Q .. Are Anti Fascist Demonstrators Fascists

    It's beginning 2 look like it 2 me

    Freedom of Speech Freedom of Expression .. NO .. Not if You don't go

    Along with our way of thinking.

    Are Human Beings Capable of Thought .. doesn't look like it 2 me

    glad I'm an Alien, beam me up scotty


  • Comment number 16.

    14

    media is an executive game of oneupmanship. money is dispensed to 'talent' to deliver ratings ie the low pleasures.

    if you have a taste for the higher pleasures you can make a more interesting schedule out of ytube than the bbc. which kind of negates the need for the bbc.

    they are now trying to link the licence fee to the mere ownership of a computer as some major computer shops now have to inform tv licensing of every new one they sell. no doubt the new owner will receive an ambiguous hostile threatening letter that implies you must have a licence fee to use your computer?

    the terms and conditions for bbc tv executives strike one as 'imperial' with all the gold and purple one might expect of a hollywood movie lifestyle.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-560900/With-4m-pension-pot-BBCs-Jenny-Abramsky-isnt-shy-retiring.html

    they all claim they could earn more in the 'private sector' but seem terrified of testing that boast?

  • Comment number 17.

    Do People In this CounTRy have A Right 2 Voice Their Concerns

    Short Answer in A Word NO (is no a word)no

  • Comment number 18.

    17

    in the uk it is classed as treason to even suggest anyone else be head of state. so in the uk democracy = treason.

    the central system in the uk is one of apartheid. the uk is still under norman monarchy occupation.

  • Comment number 19.

    Diss Patches on 4 Re Muslim Schools

    Reasons 2 Be Cheerfull Part one, I don't Pay Tax

    Reasons 2 Be Cheerfull Part two, I don't Pay Tax

    " " " " " " " " " "

    Reasons 2 Be Cheerfull Part 2 Trillion and 2, I don't Pay Tax

  • Comment number 20.

    Auntie Remind me 2 put my Brats in2 one of they schools shown on Channel four's Dispatches Oh and remind me 2 wear ma troosers at half mast, I dont want me plates o meat burnt in the fires of L

    Snakes! I love my one eyed trouser snake, I serpently do

  • Comment number 21.

    Testing the mod:

    Its a throwback culture.

  • Comment number 22.

    My Catholic teaching was quite shocking. The nuns and the priests were very hardline and instilled fear into the child: hell and damntion blah blah..but they never instilled hatred towards others of a different race or religion; not so in Islamic schools. This evenings dispatches on C4 is only opening a crack of the window to what goes on in Islamic schools but rest assured (poor choice of words)..this is the norm and not an abberation or only happening in a few Schools and Madrasas that has been suggested in tonights program. C4 did attempt some damage limitation with showing a moderate Muslim school. That I suggest is the minority of Islamic schooling.

    Islam in the west..its a long game they play.

  • Comment number 23.

    so US backs the Iranians shock even though its only been a few hours it took 2 weeks to even put the pressure on for Egypt

    lets see them jump as quick in Palestine or Saudi!






  • Comment number 24.

    if the state is the antidote to the power of the rich [and their usually bonkers philosophies] then given money = power dismantling the state [big society] makes the rich more powerful?

    how can extending the incompetence through big society improve society? just think of who you are handing 'power' to. the honour system does not work in the uk. look at the blue badge disabled car permit. or even house of commons expenses. why does the honour system not work in the uk? how did we move from a country where you could leave your house and car unlocked without much fear of theft in the 70s to the present where organised crime has mushroomed to thousands of gangs taking some 40 billion a year out of the uk?

    big society demands what kind of skills from the public? the ability to think rationality? The ability to make correct choices? To be honest and live by the honour system?

    do these skills drop out the sky? do people pick them up through osmosis? no you would need 20 years of education in that model of humanity to believe any 'handing over power' would work?

    hand power over to a band of confused people on the make and what society will you end up with?

  • Comment number 25.

    Astonishingly we have pundits from both sides in the education debate agreeing that schools should take on the mantle of parents in disciplining children. The job of ensuring children know how to behave belongs to that child's parents.

  • Comment number 26.

    anyone noticed the downtrend in the wholesale gas prices? how the uk pound is strengthening. two reason the enery companies gave for increasing prices. are retail prices now coming down with the same speed? muppet regulator still thinks 'the market' is working in favour of the customer? hahaha.

    the energy rip offs has to be one of the greatest scandals ever committed against the british public and there seems a deathly silence over it.

  • Comment number 27.

    How can louise Ellman explain what happened to Abir Aramin, an 11-year-old girl shot dead by the IDF as she walked from school to a sweet shop in Anata in January 2007? Anata is in the West Bank (even if the Israelis are so keen to claim it they built the Separation Barrier down the iddle of a school playground)and pretty much a Hamas-free zone, even in 2007. And Abir is just one child among many, cf Gideon Levy's 'The Children of 5767'

  • Comment number 28.

    DESPAIR

    I did not sense the philosopher or psychologist in Morpurgo. In boys, PUBERTY CONFOUNDS ALL. Prior to puberty, they can be quite free of mindless antagonism, if that is what gets approval.

    As for UK schools: Katherine Birbalsingh prescribes discipline and uniforms ON TOP OF INSTITUTIONALISATION, as a remedy for nihilistic homes.
    God help the Lost Boys.

    Meanwhile Didactic Dave talks down to us, dispensing ignorance of a high order. Well he would do that, wouldn't he? And Mrs Clinton tells yet another country how democracy is done.

    Where was tony? Usually he is first in the studio when vacuous claptrap is called for.

    Newsnight (BBC?) you really are derelict in your duty to inform. Human failure is all around. Failure, illuminated skilfully, could bring many eyes to see so much more than at present. You choose/dare-not address this. Like our politicians you are either fools or knaves.

    Your journalism may be award-winning-good, as art, but it is bereft of higher purpose.

    Weep BBC

  • Comment number 29.

    how many hidden taxes have been loaded into energy prices? will energy become like petrol where most of the price is tax?

    taxes that merely make those who own the carbon exchanges rich in a massive wealth transfer from poor to rich.

  • Comment number 30.

    i think the lady that was the MP was very biased.. due to her just blaming the reasons why the war between Palestine and Israel is happeneing is because of Hammas... in which i think it is a little bit redicilous assuming that HAMMAS makes little children bomb Israel...

    if that happens, why didn't she talk about the harms ISRAEL causes when they throw white phosphorus to the Palestines residents... i understand that Hammas throws home made rockets.. but which one causes the most damamge when Israel throw rockets which contain a lot of chemicals and are very harmful to the surroundings of the people...

    overall, i think it was wrong of her just blaming all the issues and problems happening to HAMMAS whcih i still think its very wrong.. maybe it is because she is the Britain-Israel Group Vice-Chairwoman...

  • Comment number 31.

    big society I agree partially with jaunty' but the rosy days of unlocked doors, whistling bobbys and neighborly charity exactly when was this golden age? My grandparents talked about the poor-house my parents never had a thing worth stealing but they still locked the doors and windows.

    As for schools well who were those prigs the kids just need to buckle down give me a break - teachers dont care why should they if they don't feel valued. School children are bored and have the attention spans of goldfish I certainly did and MTV wasn't invented for another 10 years.

    Oh and Hamas is to blame OFFICIAL really they're strapping bombs onto little flower girls and doe-eyed boys and launching them at the milk faced curly haired offspring of gods chosen squatters like constantly.



  • Comment number 32.

    A Valentine's treat with Jeremy tonight :o)
    Excellent debate by Jeremy with Louise Ellman MP. The author, Morpurgo, on the other hand, was a left wing propagandist and nothing more. He failed to realise that the Gazans voted in the terrorist organisation Hamas, who sent suicide bombers to Israel and with the help of smuggled weapons killed countless victims in Israel. Hamas' charter is to destory Israel and anyone Jewish as well as to disregard the Peace Charter between Israel and Egypt (now with the possibility of The Muslim Brotherhood coming into power at the next Egyptian elections.....).

    As for the Channel 4 Dispatches programme tonight - nothing surprising there at all......as though we never knew hatred was being taught in religious Islamic schools (remember Jeremy interviewing a head teacher from one of these Saudi funded schools a few years ago?).....I despair.

  • Comment number 33.

    WHITER THAN WHITE - PURER THAN PURE (#24)

    We have had a string of deluded Prime Ministers. They all demonstrated their aberrant nature in their utterances. The weird sub-set of humanity we term MPs, did nothing.

    In Westminster these damaged psyches - self titled 'honourable', OPENLY, cheat, lie, obfuscate and connive while purporting to govern, and paying themselves over-generously.

    We have got ourselves another one. He has made a fetish of the words 'Big Society' (what happened to the 'Great Ignored'?)

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_8606000/8606567.stm

    Are they the same - until needed? Now it is his PASSION, his LIFE'S WORK, what he came into politics for perhaps? His MISSION ON EARTH? Does his maniacal zeal not remind you of Tony?

    WE HAVE GOT OURSELVES ANOTHER ONE.

    There are 640-odd (VERY ODD) ciphers in the Commons; NOT ONE will point at this man and cry ENOUGH! Is it time to put TEN TIMES THE NUMBER in the streets, that stood against the madness of Tony and IDS?

    We can’t go on like this. Are you thinking what I’m thinking?

    I'll be there.

  • Comment number 34.

    Evidence of children and women being used as suicide bombers by Hamas in Israel:


    Hamas teaching their children to become suicide bombers
    [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

    and
    Teaching Hatred to Palestinian Children
    [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

    and
    Hamas Indoctrinating Children
    [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

    Nuff said.

  • Comment number 35.

    JUST LISTEN TO HOW CAMERON SPEAKS

    He speaks as if his listeners are children - inferior beings. This can only mean that JUST LIKE TONY he, ultimately, regards his own view as most valid.

    Tony gave us a war. What might Dave be going for as a legacy? My guess is it will be something right off the left-field wall. The man with the most windmills? That has a nice Quixotic quality. No - it has to be on a par with 'Kwame Nkrumah never dies'. Perhaps he will simply declare himself infallible. (He already believes it.)

  • Comment number 36.

    Barrie i'm with you the revolution starts at closing time
    catch the swine line em up let em have it with both barrels!
    then get the old guy with the cat who doesn't want anything to make the decisions
    never let anyone who wants to run the ship anywhere near the controls

  • Comment number 37.

    AIRHEAD WOMAN HAS NO INKLING OF THE PRIMAL FURY AROUSED IN THE CAGED OPPRESSED MALE (#32)

    I try very hard not to pop at posters 76. PLEASE stick to sycophantic comments about Jeremy. Basic bloke is beyond your ken.

  • Comment number 38.

    'FUNNY' YOU SHOULD MENTION CLOSING TIME UNCLE (#36)

    A great deal encapsulated in those two words. Not only cultural madness, but the problem of violence, flushed to the surface by legalised poison.

    http://www.ias.org.uk/resources/publications/theglobe/globe200101/gl200101_p21.html

  • Comment number 39.

    Snakes on A diffeRant Plain and Snakes in DiffeRent Schools

    Diffy in brain cells

    Paid for by YOU

    How Sweet 2 Be an Idiot

  • Comment number 40.

    MODs & ROCKERS

    I have allways been A HeavyDuty Headbanging Rocker (cures DandRUFF)

    The M.O.D. cures nothing, They are part of the diseaze

    They also cost you a lot of money

  • Comment number 41.

    @Barrie #37 - You're a psychologist and a moderator now? Dream on :p

  • Comment number 42.

    :o) Great news - Jeremy's new series, "Empire," out this Autumn:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/feb/14/jeremy-paxman-bbc1-empire

  • Comment number 43.

    42...Gosh!...were`s my pith helmet and my old copy of Kipling for when half of North Africa arrives to take over my land?

  • Comment number 44.

    #25
    "...Astonishingly we have pundits from both sides in the education debate agreeing that schools should take on the mantle of parents in disciplining children. The job of ensuring children know how to behave belongs to that child's parents...."

    I don't recall anyone stating that schools should 'begin' the process of discipline. I do recall them suggesting that, the mantle of discipline, structure and engagement being upheld was essential.

    And yes, the responsibility for starting that process resides with parents. But all too often schools, nurseries and day care take in children where that is simply not happening. Therefore, too much time is taken up in most schools, at both teaching and management levels, to simply keep order, investigate poor attitudes/behaviour and punishing wrong doers in order largely, not to help those in most need, but to prevent them from disrupting the already brighter able children.

    One could then go on to debate until the cows come home, the best shape of 5 - 16+ education to ensure rounded, fair and open minded young adults capable of critical thinking without turning out institutionalised robots.

    What is taught and how when you get our young people into schools with a very high percentage of good to excellent teachers (so glad JP raises that question and kept on it) is another step along the way and another huge debate.

    The model of out of school one to one learning, as promoted by Ben Drew, which in some areas might be a large percentage of the school population is simply not possible even if it was desirable.

    How do we instil an 'I can' attitude, pride in themselves, vision, desire to achieve..... in all children before circumstances of birth and surroundings draw them further from the light?

    Answers on a s*****g great big postcard to:.......

  • Comment number 45.

    34

    one could do a similar list of links about settlers shooting children and old people [while police and idf watch on doing nothing] because the settlers are trying to drive them off their arab farms?

    if you want a manifesto of racial hate one needs to look no further than the king's torah written by a group that the israeli government funded?

    why hasn't the uk asked israel for the names of all the uk people fighting in the idf etc who should be prosecuted? who maybe involved in war crimes and supporting illegal occupations? we have our own terrorists that the govt turns a blind eye to?

  • Comment number 46.

    why does everyone think Louise Ellman MP is right aboat what she said aboat Hammas, because i think it is really very very very biased as she was only giving the what the Israeli government would have said... How is it for Hammas to blame when they both Palestine and Israel be playing games to each other... one side throwing home made bombs, while the other is thoring white phosphorus...

    even the the USA used one in Iraq http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/4440664.stm, and the Israeli's used one in Gaza http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/israeli-armys-use-white-phosphorus-gaza-clear-undeniable-20090119... look at this wbesite if you want to know what else happens aroud closed doors http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/articles/inside-britains-israel-lobby-pamphlet...

    and obcviously she would take one side as she is the vice-chair for the Britain-Israel group which does dodgy business... come on and grow up people saying the MP lady was right abouat what she said.... because it is only one view and her prospective...

  • Comment number 47.

    and why does dispatches never show the teachings of other faiths, because in every faith there are always extremists... why does it always have to be Muslim poeple who get stereotyped...

  • Comment number 48.

  • Comment number 49.

    FAITHS ARE DE FACTO EDGY, EVEN DAWKINISM. - RATIONALITY BORES THE BBC(#45)

    Simply to present the 'Books' (and their 'origins') credo/dogmas, required performances, mutilations etc, across the many faiths, is to nearly die laughing, and have the 'scales fall from ones eyes'. Then add in the life-philosophies such as Daoism, for balance, and the HUMAN TENDENCY TO ERROR is writ large.

    I shall resist a dissertation - the edgy Beeb are not 'going there' any time soon, going forward.

    Even science (eg Material World) is fronted by a Tigger clone, the ever-bounciful Quentin Cooper.

    Weep maturity.

  • Comment number 50.

    JC 45

    The UK Is Haven/Heaven for Terrorists, and has been for Years

    Why cant we chuck out Undesirables, Youl'd be classed as Fascist Racist Religist blah blah Uman Rights Blah Blah the usual guff

    dictators despotts and their Billions come hear, The Sad/Stupid part is A Lot of it is Your Money

    Turn A Blind Eye 2 The Backhanders Nod Nod Wink Wink Blink Blink Bling Bling OOOOOOOOO it's Shiney Core Blimey I'm A very Slimey Limey

  • Comment number 51.

    43 Don't worry about it when the next Ice Age Hit's We'll all be hitting The Equator

    Pass Them 2 Short Planks Ethel, gotta get this ark floatin and take the nails outta them cofFins

    B A Coffin Dodger Move 2 the Equater/or Drown in Your Own Mess

  • Comment number 52.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 53.

    #44 BrightYangThing: .
    “How do we instil an 'I can' attitude, pride in themselves, vision, desire to achieve..... in all children before circumstances of birth and surroundings draw them further from the light?”

    Welcome back byt. Sorry I don’t have a s*****g great postcard big enough!
    It’s hard to come up with an answer as our society has sunk so low during my lifetime. We have CH4’s Dispatches showing the teaching methods of madrassas (mad-as-asses?) indoctrinating young minds to hate all who differ from their stone-age brainwashed beliefs, and using corporal punishment to reinforce an ideology. At the same time, we have:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-12449643

    ‘The (NSPCC) study says a million secondary school pupils have faced "severe maltreatment" during childhood.’

    So can we trust all our children to all parents, or all schools? Obviously not.

    Our recent experience is of our teenage daughter on suspension (euphemistically termed ‘agreed absence’ which it isn’t) from a catholic school for being ‘in the company of’ some known criminal types who are under investigation for committing burglary. The schools ‘caring’ ethos goes too far in harbouring kids with known criminal records, and our experience ‘brings home’ some of the factors that we believe need addressing:-

    It is becoming almost impossible to exert parental control against the kids’ peer groups, influenced by mass-media saturation of bad behaviour from MPs, ‘celebs’, and role models pursuing a range of ‘sporty activities’, together with ‘edgy’ TV reflecting the worst of society (Eastenders, Waterloo Place, and 5 channels of US teenage ‘humourous’ sitcoms) and glorifying ‘fame’ through aggressive ‘crap gangsta music’ and the display of tits and bums.

    I was no saint at school, preferring the company of other ‘adventurous’ lads rather than befriending the swats and geeks. But despite leaving school with no qualifications whatsoever, I can be justly proud of my lifetime achievements, probably due to strict parenting and discipline at school (there is no ruler stricter than a 12 inch boxwood one brought down hard on the knuckles). Although not condoning violence (was the mad-asses shown in Dispatches, and worse than Eton-style ‘fagging’?) most parents of our time accepted the use of the cane, and National Service ensured that the human rights of each individual were far less important that the building of a disciplined and integrated team. In matters of law and immigration I’ve blogged for society’s rights to be considered alongside the overblown rights of individuals.
    The same goes for schooling and upbringing.

  • Comment number 54.

    Hellman is the apologist for Israeli aggression in the House of Commons if resolution 242 was ever adopted and the Israeli forces had to go back to 1967 borders she would say the world was against Israel which would never be the case. Israel needs a homeland but so do the Palestinians and she has refused to ever recognise that fact from day one, she is so biased as to make her arguments laughable. I wonder why NN has her on a she is so blinkered....

  • Comment number 55.

    Education in the schools and boys behaving badly:

    The trendy wendys came along and destroyed all that worked before.
    They removed punishment of anykind, all boundries were demolished to make way for the teacher that wanted to understand the kids..the post-Woodstock generation with their Beatle albums under arm in the 70s. Most teachers today are left-wing-wets who couldn't organise their own lifes let-a-lone organise a lesson for a class full of kids. I heard Paxman mention the ridiculous statistic that only one teacher gets sacked each year (thats down to the unions). If i could have my way with teachers, I'd sack all the radical leftists, the ones with pictures of Chairman Mao, Che and Stalin on their walls and shelves. The only problem with that eradication process is there wont be any teachers left.

  • Comment number 56.


    Further to my #53 From tonight's NN prelude:-

    "The expectation to work is not strong enough to motivate change.
    Political leaders must also clearly announce a new social contract where entitlement is ended and benefits are now seriously and immediately conditioned on work."

    The new SOCIAL CONTRACT, long overdue,must be a piece of legislation that stresses the importance of SOCIETY over the individual. It will then be a piece of legislation that will balance the distortions of the HRA and the overreaching power of the EU, giving us back some of our (sovereign?) rights and safeguards. Re-introduction of National Service (public not military) will also help rid us of the 'My Rights' culture and challenge divisive and devious ideologies that are a growing threat to our society.

  • Comment number 57.

    THE OLD SCHOOL TIE TIES ALL (#)44

    Ho BYT! You say 5 - 16, are we not heading for 2 - 18? A massive STATE INSTITUTIONALISATION?

    I feel the attributes you list are innate in the newborn but chaotic early life, followed by the polar opposite of regimentation, in school, MAKES OR BREAKS. Schools cannot channel rebellion, it is inimical to smart uniforms and tight time-keeping, yet (as you know BYT) it often indicates a BRIGHT mentality looking for identity and meaningful enterprise.

  • Comment number 58.

    YOU TOUCHED A NERVE THERE IDG2 - MY HACKLES ROSE (#53)

    From memory I was only hit twice with a weapon by 'teachers'. One broke veins in both the hands of a 6 or 7 year old, the other was a sado-masochist homosexual, who leapt into the air with the wildness of his slippering. It was years later that he was 'slid out' of the school, with minimum 'fuss'. (At the first incident, I was 'too young to know', but have my suspicions, arising from the sheer ferocity of attack.)

    Society wasn't working then, and it, sure as perversity, isn't working now. Governance is all about mechanisms, with neither awareness nor application of positive philosophies or psychology - let alone human understanding and compassion. The closest politicians get to these is MANIPULATION, a dark art.

    Perhaps church weddings for ALL is the answer . . .

  • Comment number 59.

    where exactly is 'the ghetto' in the uk? given the bbc has a whole radio station devoted to it they must know?

    if being told you are worthless by your parents is a condition of being in the ghetto then even Prince Charles could relate to that? Id PC a blud from the Windsor ghetto?

    the state is the 'father' for many boys. an absent father. the father is the person who has the stories of how to 'be a man' unless they were never taught themselves. So the failures are due to the lack of stories for how to be a man. that being a man doesn't happen to you but its something you have to choose. to choose to use their power for good. but the state pumps out a pig philosophy that denies there is anything called the good.

    Not A Childrens Novel
    As an author what does he make of the King's Torah narrative?

    "we are all friends of israel here"? so anti human rights then?

    when will the uk govt ask the israel government for a list of the british citizens breaking the law for fighting in israel? and prosecute those uk based recruitment groups mistelling british citizens its legal?

  • Comment number 60.

    BLINKERS (#54)

    Re Hellman bias stevie - I think my #54 applies.

  • Comment number 61.

    LOL Ye didn't Post my last anti

    Is The UK A Tinderbox waiting for the Wrong/Write Bright Spark/Light

    Have ye got A Light boy/guv/Mac

    No I Gotta Very Dark Blue Flame

    Pull Up A Sandbag Swing That Light I/ll Tell Sum Wailing War Stories

    tittle/title fill yer boots and yer pants

  • Comment number 62.

    SO HOW COME SOME TEACHERS JUST TEACH - SUCCESSFULLY? (#55)

    Oh Kev! I had the same maths teacher for 5 years - he was 5 foot nothing.
    No class or individual - including myself - ever gave him trouble.

    The problem, clearly, lies with our school-based culture. The institution of school only works (with boys) if teachers are a super-breed, rarely encountered. Ironically, schooling is configured so as to result in very few super-anything emerging, in human terms.


  • Comment number 63.

    Are there Blueprints for The Houses of *HIT Floating About

    Is There A Pipeline That Supples the houses of *hit with water for A Sprinkler System

    The Houses of *HIT are Of No Use 2 Man nor Beast

    Mag 2 Grid get rid

  • Comment number 64.

    54 Stevie..NN always takes extremes in the muddled media belief that two extremes balance out...and somehow distill into a sensible "middle way" or common sense centre ground....in fact it rewards crackpots who know they have to say extreme things to get what they crave...attention!

    Remember Paisley and Adams and their implacable intransigence? It was what got them status and influence...where reasonabless would have got them trimbled to the sidelines.Of course when they were offered power in exchange for a u-turn on their principles....guess what happened!?

    As for all these friends of Islam and Israel isn`t it about time they had to declare these affiliations in their election manifestos?

  • Comment number 65.

    A Few Posts Above I wouldnt argue with

  • Comment number 66.



  • Comment number 67.

    #53 IDG2

    "...The study also says a million secondary school pupils have faced "severe maltreatment" during childhood...." from your link.

    And I recall recently hearing over 1/2 million children are in care.

    Not sure that either is assisted by bringing back the birch or cane - neither are necessary to show and support discipline.

    The influences, choices and pressures placed on our youngsters today knows no equal. It may not be the same stress as finding the next meal
    but they are facing challenges that neither they, nor in many cases their parents, have any experience in handling.

    Parents have lost the skill of being a firm but fair parent, as you say, like teachers, preferring to be 'friends'. Too much freedom is being dispensed before there is the wisdom to discern.

    I can't/won't comment on your daughter's situation save to hope that she comes out of it stronger and wiser. Guilt by association may not be fair but it may teach selection.

    "...
    society’s rights to be considered alongside the overblown rights of individuals.... "

    Absolutely.

    As I commented elsewhere yesterday, BIG society is nothing new. It just used to be called.............................. Society. A place where, without money changing hands or the Big Economy being involved, folks helped their family, friends and neighbours in practical ways - no keeping score, no counting cost. Now, no one values anything, even help and support, unless it comes with a price tag. That, I find a huge sadness.

  • Comment number 68.

    NOT A GLOCKENSPIEL AFTER ALL MrDUFF? (#65)

    Clearly a French Horn in disguise! The 'chk nik ptang glk gtong' had me fooled for a while, but post 65 GAVE YOU AWAY! (:o)

  • Comment number 69.

    #56

    "....Further to my #53 From tonight's NN prelude:-..."

    Where, pretty please, in the absence of the ex email, does one find a prelude?


    #55

    "....The trendy wendys came along and destroyed all that worked before...."

    That is true in many aspects of life, and not just down to a political bent. It is largely a post war growth in dependence on commercial values.

    "...the ridiculous statistic that only one teacher gets sacked each year (thats down to the unions)..."

    Sadly, it's also down to the 'we are special' ethos that resides in some corner of the minds of all teachers, good bad and indifferent of my knowledge.

    But I don't think we can look at teaching failings without bringing parenting into it. Leaving aside those with issues that set them up for being in a bad place to start with, where has the ethos of parents setting strong boundaries and guidelines, applying (and explaining) discipline and rules and being unpopular for it at times. There is a phrase 'failure to thrive' that is applied in cases where seemingly well provided for children do not have the basics of good health and wellbeing provided for in their daily lives. In good homes, with good jobs, decent income - children are being left without the nurture and care that they need to thrive.

  • Comment number 70.

    SOME ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS (#69)

    It popped into my head BYT: Girls, generally, do better than boys in school then - when they walk home - they are every bit as good as the boys at SHOVING ME INTO THE ROAD.

    Result!

  • Comment number 71.

    68 1812 Overture/Tune

    A REd Rag 2 A Bull I Do Loose My Rag But its Not Red It's Marroon

    Latch Key Kids .. Kids Latching On 2 The Wrong Keys No Fault of Theirs

    The Wrong Boot up The Wrong *rse

  • Comment number 72.

    The simple truth is that we live in an evil decadent end of empire society that abandons children to the "care" of hopelessly incapable people who can`t even care for themselves.

    As a social worker for thirty years I watched the most heart-rending disasters unfold in the name of individual liberty and one parent families and other completely crazy arrangements that the RSPCA would never have allowed happen to a budgie far less a dog!

    But never mind...the BBC have got half of Tunisia`s unemployed to foist on us....so what do OUR children matter??

  • Comment number 73.

    #71

    "...It's Marroon"

    Oh Cheers. Since its cold and wet out, mine's a half of Old Peculiar.












    (sorry - couldn't resist. It is a very OLD Joke)

  • Comment number 74.

    #72

    "...The simple truth is that we live in an evil decadent end of empire society that abandons children to the "care" of hopelessly incapable people who can`t even care for themselves...."

    Yes.

    A strange dichotomy indeed, that man is considered so far superior to the animals, yet when man decides how to protect his own, he places all manner of intellectual constraints in the way of 'doing the right thing'.

  • Comment number 75.

    #69:byt

    ‘#56....Further to my #53 From tonight's NN prelude:-...’
    Where, pretty please, in the absence of the ex email, does one find a prelude?”

    Definition:prel•ude n.
    1. An introductory performance, event, or action preceding a more important one; a preliminary or preface.
    2. Music
    a. A piece or movement that serves as an introduction to another section or composition and establishes the key, such as one that precedes a fugue, opens a suite, or precedes a church service.

    In my #56 I quoted from the NN link to Lawrence Mead's film for Newsnight tonight, thus definition 1 applies; hopefully it will not turn out to precede a fugue, as in 2!

  • Comment number 76.

    The coalition of millionaires will be grateful to the, upper class Harvard graduate, for his views on welfare reform, since it creates a smoke screen hiding the fact that trillions of tax payers money was spent on bailing out failed bankers. Whilst bankers are rewarded with bonuses amounting to over £84,0000 a year, welfare recipients in receipt of £65.00 a week are forced into slave labour. Mead's reseach methods amounted to an upper class graduate intimidating single mothers living on the breadline. The impact of variables, such as public sector cuts resulting in the loss of 80,000 jobs, recruitment freezes in the public sector and lack of employment of opportunities have not been considered. Thus, Mead's hypothesis that the unemployed don't work due to a lack of incentive is one of a number of variables and as such his hypothesis cannot be proven beyond reasonable doubt. Based on this facile research Mead makes his living and maintains his upper class lifestyle whilst widening the gap between coalition millionaires, bankers, Havard graduates and the destitute. Perhaps he ought to adopt an epistemological approach and actually step into the shoes of a welfare recipient, since this would ensure objective results, rather than results which incorporate his white, male upperclass values.

 

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