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Monday 28 June 2010

Sarah McDermott | 11:26 UK time, Monday, 28 June 2010

Here's what we are planning for tonight:

The government has introduced the UK's first cap on immigration. From next April there'll be an annual limit on the number of skilled workers from outside the European Union allowed into the UK. In the meantime, to avoid a rush of applications, an interim cap of 24,100 will be imposed.

There are reports of division within the coalition with David Willetts, Michael Gove and Vince Cable said to be worried about the impact of the policy on business and universities. But with just one in seven potential migrants subject to the cap, how much of a difference will it make? Richard Watson will investigate and we hope to discuss the issues with the Immigration Minister Damian Green, Labour's Mayoral hopeful Oona King and Lord Pearson, the Leader of the UK Independence Party.

Could the imposition of unilateral targets to cut carbon dioxide emissions damage our economy? That's the fear of the former Government Chief Scientific Adviser, Sir David King. Our Science editor Susan Watts is at the World Forum on Enterprise and the Environment in Oxford where the T.25 car was launched today. It produces about 40% fewer emissions over its lifecycle than the average car. Are such technological innovations the answer as we move towards a low-carbon economy?

Our Economics Editor Paul Mason will examine why the England team were so poor in their World Cup match against Germany. Have we seen the first real triumph of the economics of modern football over skill and organisation: the triumph of a club-first, nation-last mentality and individualism over teamwork? Read Paul's blog.

And our Culture correspondent Stephen Smith will be meeting the legend of jazz and popular music, the 15 Grammy award winning Tony Bennett. Watch a sneak preview here.

Do join Gavin at 10.30pm on BBC Two.

From earlier today

The number of skilled workers allowed into the UK from outside the EU is to be cut, Home Secretary Theresa May has said. Numbers will go down to 24,100 between now and April 2011, 5% less than last year.

We've asked Richard Watson to investigate what difference this is really going to make, and why this immigration cap will work when others haven't.

Our Science editor Susan Watts is at the World Forum of Enterprise and Environment in Oxford, where the T.25 car is to be launched which produces about 40% fewer emissions over its lifecycle than the average car. She'll be considering if imposing unrealistic targets in an attempt to curb climate change could put economic growth at serious risk.

Paul Mason will be presenting his thesis on why England were so poor in their World Cup match against Germany yesterday.

And our Culture correspondent Stephen Smith will be meeting the legend of jazz and popular music, Tony Bennett.

Comments

  • Comment number 1.

    I look forward to Paul's thesis tonight on England's dismal performance and certainly to Stephen's interview with Tony Bennett :o)

  • Comment number 2.

    On immigration one related area that I am concerned about is repatriating those asylum seekers who fail to gain permission to stay but evade deportation.

    I believe the figure used to be roughly the same as those that are granted asylum and the bill for finding and deporting these illegal immigrants remained the same year on year and so was a token effort.

    I have no problem with skilled workers coming in but that should not be allowed to bypass the need for training and to cut wage bills.

    It seemed to be too lax under Labour where an employer could make a token effort to employ somebody and then hire in people from abroad at a cheaper rate.

    That is not right.

    As ever, for me and the UK, the issue is not about race as all of the races are all so genetically similar and the differences are cosmetic due to climate adaptations.

    In the event of the far right posters trying to stick their oars in lets remember that they always come up with ideological stances that are not based on science and they have a long track record of lies and half truths and trying to whip up a crowd English Defence League style.

    Where ever they prosper its via lies and then of course over time their true colours shine through and they are rejected just as the BNP were at the General Election.

  • Comment number 3.

    My view on the Watts piece is that we need to obtain better energy security in a world where carbon shortfall impacts are due to start anytime.

    The Deepwater Horizon has shown how the oil industry can have a lot of disasterous side effects and exploration may not be the simple expansion of existing practices that was anticipated.

    We may lose on the swings in the short run but then if we are better placed via investment and policy to benefits on the long term roundabouts then I say that is a price worth paying.

  • Comment number 4.

    On the Paul Maason piece we were poor because of the shape and not the players in my view.

    Capello is a nice guy with a great track record but ... the shape was never right and we never made best use of of an excellent squad.

    I would be inclined to set him free for other adventures with a good will. It is a myth that we don't have good English managers.

    The Germans by the way had done their homework and had a plan and exploited the weaknesses of the English defence so good luck to them.

  • Comment number 5.

    How much are polls driven by media narrative so that the latter suggest for instance that Lib Dem voters were in turmoil and going to defect and the polls stayed steady and now apparently after some new iterrations they suggests that the Lib Dem vote has dropped to 16%?

    Leave aside the accuracy of polls on the Lib Dems in a non election period and leave aside that I doubt Labour will become the most popular opposition in history.

    As I have commented before nobody was supposed to be interested in PR and then seventy odd per cent indicate they were interested in fairer votes after the election.

    But it is beyond me that anybody would even think about defecting from the Lib Dems to labour when it is Labour that ran up the bills and contributed greatly to the economic crash that necessitate the cuts.

    Its also beyond me how Labour will have any credibility should the cuts not throw us into double dip recession and should the long term impacts be benevolent and progressive.

    It is a concern that the VAT rate has risen to me but then again they have to get the money from somewhere and that is the priority.

    It may be sensible to signal that they will compensate those who have suffered disproportionately in this round of cuts once things improve a little.

  • Comment number 6.

    On Democratic Senator Feinstein:

    'And so we need to understand that [we have] to get the military trained, get the government online, secure and stabilize, and I think do away with the drugs to a great extent, because the drugs are now fueling the Taliban."

    Feinstein, who chairs the Senate Intelligence Committee, has long sounded warnings about the deteriorating situation in Afghanistan. But her comments on Sunday appear to be the most explicit endorsement of scrapping the July 2011 timeframe for a troop drawdown -- should circumstances demand it. '

    I know that these intelligence types and those associated with them do not like to give information away and that the Americans have a relaxed way to talking but it bothers me that if the drugs are funding the taliban and those such as Karzai's brother are allegedly "associated" with drugs how are you going to cut that funding?

    It is also not clear why after so long poppy production is going up so what would they do to take it down?

    Know your enemy Tsun Tzu suggested but whilst I remain applauding the spuerb efforts of our military and supporting the security aims of the war I am still concerned that we don't have a clear view of where the enemy ends and our allies begin.

  • Comment number 7.

    I hope Susan will also be considering whether we have credible investment in alternative energy and energy efficiency, because the one thing we can be sure of is that demand and increasing extraction costs will significantly increase the cost of fossil fuel over the next two decades. Climate change or not, there will be no growth unless we can respond to that.

  • Comment number 8.

    Capello Bin him now and it will cost the F.A. 12 mill quid good thinkin batman

    prior proper planing & preparation prevents plonker pillOk piss poor performance.

  • Comment number 9.

    Go1, You mentioned how you have no problem with 'immigrant skilled workers coming in'. Really!, you have no problem with that. So I have to assume that you are not a skilled worker yourself. Lets say for example you was a plumber, would you be happy for immigrant plumbers coming in? - Imagine having a mortgage and a family to support first before you answer that question gango.

  • Comment number 10.

    2 mill unemployed/uninployable

    train them.

    Glasgow Bombers were not allowed 2 practice their practice down under

    ok here then, any witch doc will do, check the cock ups within the nhs

  • Comment number 11.

    Mused over A recording of MUSE Cutting The EDGE Stuff
    (ma brithers favourite banned)

  • Comment number 12.

    GO1 why are you so preoccupied with race and the nazies?
    I genuinely believe you would benefit from alternative medicine and therapy. The prognosis is very apparent though your free to get a second opinion. Your meridians I believe are blocked up with past emotional trauma - the manifestation of full blown 'Hitlerizingtons twitch' clearly apparent, with cold sweats and watering-of-the-mouth your daily experience. I'm sure deep down you know there is something wrong but you don't know how to address this affliction, an affliction that has clearly taken over your life. Go and make an appointment with an acupuncturist. You'll thank me for it...trust me on this gango, you'll thank me.

  • Comment number 13.

    -what Dinosaur #8 said.


    -on England's shabby performance, here's a thought: Lets suppose the Meeja *hadn't* hounded John terry out of the Captaincy, how much of a difference to the Team it would have made. Yet for sure there will be NO parts of the Meeja apologising for their crippling of the England team, merely to try to sell a few extra newspapers by out-and-out gossiping and scandal-raking in private lives.

    after all, they just "report the news" right?

  • Comment number 14.

    #8: "prior proper planing & preparation prevents plonker pillOk piss poor performance. "

    Brillian'! :)

  • Comment number 15.

    #9: but what about being in a community where there are *no* plumbers?


    perhaps one of the key problems in the UKs structural economy, is that even "skilled labour" is paid such a pittance, that only immigrants from poorer countries can find it a Living Wage. This goes back a long time in the UK, to the split between 'academic' and 'manual abilities', especially in the 11+ system. The complete lack of affordable retraining courses (very few on the £65 a week benefits can afford to invest the £Thousands needed to access most courses), also exacerbates the problem of skilled labour shortages.

    --but then, why would the UK need to have investment in skills, when our outstanding, incredibly profitable and totally stable 'Financial Services' industries make so much money?? We can all be bankers or unemployed, and just hire the skills from abroad.

    and although that sentence sounds like a parody, in fact it is *exactly* what this UK Govt has done since 1979 when it first came to power under its Blue wing. No wonder the MPs have consistently refused to allow random drugs tests on their own ranks! You would either have to be pretty zonked, or else very ignorant and/or stupid to have such a model.

    -and what is MORE important than this 'easy' putting a cap on non-EU immigration, is how much investment the Govt will put into retraining UK citizens to do the work. Or is that once again to be left to the 'Free Market' - the only thing that isn't, it seems, are those poor widdle multi-£Bnaire Banksters, who get as much training, and infusions of tax-payer monies, as they could possibly desire. Even, we might remember, without the tax-payer necessarily being informed about it.

    perhaps the Thames should be temporarily diverted to clean out the Pig-Troughs of Parliament and Downing St.?

  • Comment number 16.

    Wall to wall football one minute and then http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/8769178.stm the next.

    Meanwhile, in other news, maybe, some news.

  • Comment number 17.

    Post 12 RE GOO
    I Agree with You

  • Comment number 18.

    Geeza Job I can lay bricks

    Qualified Prof from outside eu

    Can be like Rape 3 methods of... Fear Fraud Force

    Give Me the qualiFactions 2B A Doc or ETC or I Will kill you and yours FEAR

    They can copy Anything these days
    FRAUD

    FORCE Similar 2 FEAR

    some people need 2 get about more

    tussssssst in me....go 2 sssssleep

  • Comment number 19.

    #12: ..."needles"?! Oh my, that starts with "n" - just like Nazi does!!! :o


    btw kevsey, do you think 'gangy' IS actually British? Despite the limited knowledge of UK politics, he seems quite American in his approach and comments. As far as can be told. I wonder where he is from?

  • Comment number 20.

    9. At 1:08pm on 28 Jun 2010, kevseywevsey wrote:

    Go1, You mentioned how you have no problem with 'immigrant skilled workers coming in'. Really!, you have no problem with that. So I have to assume that you are not a skilled worker yourself. Lets say for example you was a plumber, would you be happy for immigrant plumbers coming in? - Imagine having a mortgage and a family to support first before you answer that question gango.

    -------------------------

    Don't worry Kevsey...he will always find employment as a 'useful idiot'.

  • Comment number 21.

    the story today is the near hysterical coverage by the bbc over the migration thing. As if putting british workers first is a 'crime'.

    employers rather than train british workers want cheap labour subsidised by the state [through services]

    the absence of a society building science means the state has no idea what skills are needed or how to get them. They rely on market fundamentalism to 'sort it out'. Which means mass migration that impoverishes their home states of skills and destroys national feeling and unity here. If we had a society building science we could demonstrate why germany is an economic powerhouse and the uk an economic basketcase.

    meanwhile china manipulates the currency to leech wealth creation away from the uk. There should be a tax on all goods from china to reflect the currency manipulation.

  • Comment number 22.

    TIME LAPSE

    When was Richard Watsons film made?

    I left Wembley in 1984 and it looked like that then. All jewellers Indian Gold, All butchers Halal, All greengrocers oriental 95% of businesses were run by hard working immigrants, be they Asian, Irish, Jewish, afro Caribbean......

    Even when I left school on 1974 in the Wembley area, as a WASPIE I was in a minority. As a sprinter, I was the fastest white girl in my year - but didn't make the finals of sports day.

    It was a truly amazing melting pot - accepting, friendly - the only undertones were between the two most recent groups of immigrants.

    Most of those immigrants were non EU. So not entirely sure why such a place was used as an indicator of current tensions.


    p.s. I turned middle distance to get my medals!

  • Comment number 23.

    Wow - 84 and he's still got it! Fantastic interview by Stephen with Tony Bennett. Loved the clips of his songs included in the report too :o)
    Also loved Paul's report on the state of England's performance.

  • Comment number 24.

    Surprise Surprise ! so the ex F1 automotive engineering boffins have come up with something totally impractical, and in reality no better than a 1980s Reliant Rialto. You could get two adults and two biggish kids fairly comfortably into a Rialto, it would give you 75 Mpg and steam down the motorway at 80 quite safely just so long as you replaced the standard radial front tyre with a cross-ply. It could be improved even further with better back leaf springs, but it had to meet the weight restrictions for the taxation class. Similarly the undersize needle roller steering king pin was always a source of concern at the MOT, but could be substituted with a simple brass bush no problem.

    Of course Ford bought out the struggling Reliant under hostile propaganda from the likes of Jasper Carrot and then closed it after the fuel price significantly increased, I forget the exact time scale but probably the first Gulf War. However the Rialto was a bit pricey, probably due to the small scale of production at Tamworth. Said innovative new alleged cheap eco-friendly design looks totally impractical over a service lifetime, the opening front hood idea is a non starter. The " hood could easily warp when lifting from one side, pins wear and draughts develop, although the plastic body is moving in the right direction just so long as its on a strong steel frame. However, the existing technology to aim for comes from the 1970s.

    Perhaps a radical departure away from " traditional " mass production car design is needed considering the investment by potential owners. To be true " green " any mass production need to be capable ( with maintenance ) of lasting at least 30 years. Buy a true "eco-friendly " car in your 20s and then hand it on to your kids when they first pass their test and start driving independently. There is proven vehicle technology capable of doing this, the ERF SP truck cab with sheet mould compound plastic panels on a strong steel frame. Using the SP cab design as a basis it could be possible to build a vehicle which fits the above criterion. If it was thought about properly you could even send your vehicle in for refurbishment and have it returned with different body styling. Such a vehicle would be likely to retain its second hand value long term, unlike current mass production designs which are normally " knackered " at under 15 years old, even if you could theoretically still get the required spares.

    The thing is that in the mid 1980s an aerospace technology bolted chassis ERF tractor unit with technically identical engine and transmission only cost less than 10% more than a cheap and nasty Ford Cargo with rot box pressed steel cab welded by robots. Like your man on about climate change policy said, the whole focus is either on investment scams or tax avoidance. Perhaps there would appear to be light at the end of the tunnel though, the logical thing to do would be to repeal the 2008 Climate Change Act. Concentrate on building a Severn and Morecambe Bay barrage which can go a long way meet any theoretical " EU Fourth Reich " directives on " renewable's " instead of wasting investment on Wind Farms. However, not much chance of that with key politicians ( Cameron's father in law and Clegg's wife ) with a clear conflict of interest on the wind farm scam, not to mention Tim nice but dim and his select committee ?

  • Comment number 25.

    #20 debtjuggler

    "Don't worry Kevsey...he will always find employment as a 'useful idiot'."

    The pretensions of some people with less "mainstream" views are becoming more and more inane in expression.

    Gone are the days when I was called an "anarchist and Trotskyite" every other post by some far right posters and gone are the "running dog of the Jews" labels and various other attempts to express National Socialist ideology whilst at the same time pretending to be in favour of more media coverage for the BNP - who are not a Nazi party the BNP allege.

    This kind of wit belongs with that of some other poster who seemed to find great expression in asking me when my bar mitzvah was.

    I don't know ... with such humour and the drama of intra-party political strife for the BNP expressed in the arrest of Collett the then publicity officer for allegedly threatening to kill Griffin nothing can stop such intellectuals.

    Once you ask the alleged higher intellectuals why science does not support their racial views and what the basis of their hatred of the Jews was they tend to slope off to the Dog and Duck.

    Its all problematic for them as the BNP cannot provide any science to challenge the EHRC over non racial membership and they try to pretend there was no Holocaust and so "explicating" the "internal political and economic threat" is a tad difficult for them.

  • Comment number 26.

    #9 kevseywevsey

    "Lets say for example you was a plumber, would you be happy for immigrant plumbers coming in? "

    There used to be a notion that unemployment of a million equaled the immigration rate.

    Of course the facts are different as the jobs the unemployed would have had tended to be in different sectors.

    On plumbers we did get a lot of Polish plumbers but that's because there was free movement and Labour did not go for the transition rules.

    They expected 16,000 Poles but got a million.

  • Comment number 27.

    #12 kevseywevsey

    "GO1 why are you so preoccupied with race and the nazies?"

    So you noticed my comments about Nazis and the BNP but missed the ideological rants about National Socialism (usually jaded_jean encouraged by others) and comments about Jews and the rants on race and IQ.

    Did you ever experience the hysteria of people seriously trying to advocate that Hitler was peace lover or that the Holocaust was made up to put people off statism?

    "Go and make an appointment with an acupuncturist. You'll thank me for it...trust me on this gango, you'll thank me. "

    I would suggest that you consider a mohican haircut and instead of being apple blond go for strawberry and lime segment colouring.

  • Comment number 28.

    So on the immigration debate I though Abbott demonstrated where it all started to go wrong with the dismissing of immigration concerns as soft racism.

    Yet the Newsnight piece showed many immigrants were themselves also concerned about it and its common sense that you have to be able to plan services and housing and chaotic influxes of say a million (very nice) Poles does have problems and costs.

    The piece also bypassed the conflict between the chambers of commerce saying the economic recovery would not happen without the immigrants and those that claimed that the rules would only affect a few thousand people.

    Finally myself there would seem to be the need for a long term consideration of total population numbers based not on race or immigration but on sustainability and global resources just like that David Attenborough used to mention on a BBC add.

  • Comment number 29.

    The Watts piece was interesting but could it not have delved more into issues like fully electric cars would cut a lot of emissions - but we would need a charging network available and there seem to be no plans for one.

    If electric is the future and the lithium shortage may be over if peace can be brought to Afghanistan by all accounts then they will have to have a network sooner or later and should the state not own that network and then franchise it out?

  • Comment number 30.

    #19 mindys_housemate

    "Despite the limited knowledge of UK politics, he seems quite American in his approach and comments. As far as can be told. I wonder where he is from?"

    A wild guess here would be that you think you yourself are extremely astute.

    That may not be a view every reader shares.

    You are not required by any law to read my posts so why upset yourself.

    I note your comments and also note that you apparently never came across those posts from people trying to promote National Socialism on this BBC website.

    They were playing to the crowd and so do I to ensure there is less chance of anybody getting sucked in by such ludicrous ideas.

    They have now largely disappeared.

    Now I get asked why am I so preoccupied by Nazis and also that I am a "useful idiot" (I'm sure I have heard that phrase before).

    Yet everybody is happy really as they have largely cleared off and you aren't a Nazi are you?

    Come to think of it the BNP themselves aren't Nazis either.

    What kind of idiot would be a Nazi when science and history refutes every cornerstone of their beliefs !!!!

  • Comment number 31.

    #21: jaunty,

    "employers rather than train british workers want cheap labour subsidised by the state [through services]"

    if you think it through, its actually "cheap skilled labour" subsidised by States *in other countries*. Others paid for their education, yet lose them (their skilled work and tax repayments) to countries like the UK/US/Germany etc because we pay higher wages.

    but yes, your underlying point is valid - 'our' State would prefer to hire (steal) skilled workers from other countries rather than pay for training and decent living standards for native Brits.

    "the absence of a society building science means the state has no idea what skills are needed or how to get them. They rely on market fundamentalism to 'sort it out'. Which means mass migration that impoverishes their home states of skills and destroys national feeling and unity here. If we had a society building science we could demonstrate why germany is an economic powerhouse and the uk an economic basketcase."

    they have *every* idea how to develop a strong Society and Economy, which is why they have been doing the very opposite. Think it through as though you were playing a complex game, and you as 'rulers' must keep a wealth division in order to be 'successful' in this game. What would you do? You would try to divide your opponents, feed them misinformation, keep them from organising, and realising core principles amongst themselves. This may be a shocking notion to some, but *perhaps* our 'Rulers' perceived self-interest is not the same as the everyone else *actual* self-interest?

    in other words, their actions may not be in our best interests.

    it is fairly easy to build a strong and stable society - it is through the supporting of cooperatives to prevent exploitation and wealth concentration, it is through building a transparent and accountable political system that is trustable, it is through an education system that responds to ALL the needs within it, and is aimed at producing strong, questioning and intellectually/emotionally rational Citizens who are trained to work well within democratic frameworks.

    how many people reading this would agree this is how they would prefer to have grown up/live?

    a strong and stable society and economy. A Science? Let people adapt to circumstances, with a legal framework to reduce exploitation, and support for the best educational systems in the world. These are provable propositions, that makes it Scientific, but an actual Science?

    hopefully not! Different existing cultures should make their own way. ...imho. :)

    as for UK v Germany - actually its not a very big difference. the reason for the difference between the two is not economic structure, but different resources and investment. Germany did not have North Sea Oil, and instead invested heavily in manufacturing high quality products, maintaining excellent educational budgets to sustain rapid development in its Human/Intellectual Capital. The UK under Margaret Thatcher had North Sea Oil, and wanted to destroy the Trades Unions, at least partly for Ideological reasons. Manufacturing investment and spending by the Govt was cut dramatically (again, as opposed to German inward investment into its industry), especially in companies/sectors heavily unionised.

    the result was the UK came to rely upon deregulated Financial Services (who are almost entirely not unionised), and rapidly depleting North Sea Oil - where the Govt set taxes upon the companies at a far lower rate than Norway in the same waters (BP paid far less to the UK in tax than to the Norwegian Govt for the same amount of extracted oil!).

    the rest of the regions got welfare - or if they were lucky, Disability Living Allowance in lieu of their previous skilled labour in manufacturing.

    that's the main difference between the UK and Germany economically. As far as i am aware. Apart from that however, in actual fact Germany is in big trouble, they are seeing the same small concentrations of wealth that are able to avoid taxes altogether, thus gaining control of more and more of the actual economy. This is a long-term trend, far longer than the recent Euro crisis, and one which all major Western countries are going to have to face quite soon - with the possible exclusion of Basque Mondragon, where the companies are already organised as cooperatives. And also possibly Sweden, that openly publishes ALL tax-receipts, so ALL citizens can check how much is being paid by whom.

    so in the mid-term, BOTH the UK and Germany are "basket-cases", unless this problem is dealt with.

    "meanwhile china manipulates the currency to leech wealth creation away from the uk. There should be a tax on all goods from china to reflect the currency manipulation."

    there already is - it is called "Corporate Profit". Think it through - if we were able to purchase the costs of the goods from the Chinese factories themselves, goods that cost over £100 through the multi-nats (like nike, wallmart etc) would cost somewhere in the region of £5 - or far less. Even with postage.

    the multi-nats that control the trade are raking in uncountable Billions of whatever currency you want, those who rule us get uncounted Millions of "campaign contributions" - and we can borrow ludicrous amounts of money whilst risking our homes to pay for vastly over-priced 'consumer goods' from the multi-nats factories in China.

    all China is doing is building factories to employ its own people, waiting for originally Western Multi-National Corporations to bleed us dry as sovereign Nations, with a corrupt and complicit political class tugging their fore-locks.

    you can blame China if you want, but it is not China that "out-sourced" so many jobs to Asia.


    "the story today is the near hysterical coverage by the bbc over the migration thing. As if putting british workers first is a 'crime'."

    in NN the BBC crew seemed more interested in how utterly symbolic this gesture was, its only seeming purpose being to create discussion over a tiny non-issue. As the report pointed out, this new policy could only cover about 1,400 people - as Diane Abbot correctly pointed out, no-one is going to see ANY difference 'on the street' - however a few shortages for certain skilled labour are going to go chronic. So what is the point of the new policy?

    "we are doing something" seems to be the limit of it.

    so they are not really putting "British workers" first at all - to do that they would have to announce new training colleges, and heavily subsidised courses.

    ..presumably however, that is a gap that "private enterprise" must fill. Ever wondered what being ruled by ideological economic idiots feels like? Watch the news.. :(

  • Comment number 32.

    Pavlovs doggie response again: ding ding!..yeah, I'm gonna need another towel..slobber everywhere and upthere^.

    One of the best Newsnights in ages.

    Tony Bennett..Wow!
    Pauls report ..excellent.
    Diana Abbot: If this woman was white, any accusation of racism could easily stick. Don't take my word on it, go listen to what she said.

    Anyhow:
    The Kenyan fella who said Enoch Powell (peace be upon him) was right...How does a liberal - the hateful kind - deal with that I wonder. Is the Kenyan fella a BNP supporter so therefore his opinion don't matter?..Has the Kenyan fella spent too much time around white working class bigots and has suffered racist indoctrination so therefore his comments don't count?..will the hateful Liberal introduce the term 'oxymoronic' to explain away the Kenyan fellas comments... so as to confuse the listener as well as themselves. Libs are prone for that tactic when they are cornered with hard facts that shatter their cherished beliefs and weird take on the world. Maybe my mate gango can explain.

    Mindy: I think go1 is of these Islands. The USA slant is due to hours spent on the huffinton post web site and 'knowledge' gained from wacopedia... a lot of cutting and paste going on. He takes quite happily the offical Govt line of any given story. ..Which is why I've never bothered to tell him that Bill Gates is a big eugenics sponsor...I don't think he could handle knowing that.

  • Comment number 33.

    #24: such a vehicle would probably also inspire new generations with the will to learn - and easy ability to practise - basic mechanics, especially in car mechanics. Such a move could open up that frontier of knowledge in the same way that the UK in the 80s had pretty much open source programming in its own brand of home computers so everyone could look at the code, and adapt it. This led directly to the UK having more programmers than any other country per head, and STILL leading the world in many software areas.

    such an adaptable, long-life vehicle could very well have the same effect.


    personally, after living in DK, and even helped repair the very first Public built turbine windmill, i like windmills a lot. I lives within 50 metres or so, and the sound becomes restful very quickly. I can't see any problems in small communities purchasing/building one to not only help with the communities electricity bills, but also to give greater local energy security/self-sustainability?
    --so what's the betting such a manufacturing power-house won't receive a penny in support/subsidy from the UK Govt, filled as it and the Commons is with Lawyers and Bankers?

    bt, very informative post, ty!

  • Comment number 34.

    on England.. i am more inclined to Paul's analysis, where the Premier League has acted like a global corporation, on many levels causing destruction to the actual football game in pursuit of mad dreams of glory and enormous wealth.

    --ever get the feeling too many of the managers thought they were just playing a computer game?

    talent comes from the grass-roots, and needs nurturing.

  • Comment number 35.

    #32: kevsey,

    "The Kenyan fella who said Enoch Powell (peace be upon him) was right...How does a liberal - the hateful kind - deal with that I wonder. Is the Kenyan fella a BNP supporter so therefore his opinion don't matter?..Has the Kenyan fella spent too much time around white working class bigots and has suffered racist indoctrination so therefore his comments don't count?..will the hateful Liberal introduce the term 'oxymoronic' to explain away the Kenyan fellas comments... so as to confuse the listener as well as themselves. Libs are prone for that tactic when they are cornered with hard facts that shatter their cherished beliefs and weird take on the world."

    in India i saw 'Mein Kampf' openly on sale, nor were young Indians shy about reading it. They simply did not have the same Cultural framework through which *we* see it. It is unlikely that Kenyan guy could/has grasped the social context in which those comments were made by Powell, the racial tensions that were quite apparent at that time, and could have caused great violence. From a different time/viewpoint, his comments may not seem as outrageous. And from a different viewpoint (now, long past when he prophesied those 'rivers of blood'), he seems even more outrageous to many in his assumption that England cannot tolerate differences.

    now, if we English can tolrate a black Kenyan immigrant saying we should "close the borders", and "Enoch Powell was right" - what can we NOT tolerate?!? :lol: ;)


    "Maybe my mate gango can explain."

    "gango" is not a 'Liberal' i am afraid, and he will now be quoting your words back ad nauseam. Call it an educated guess. He *might* be a brit, but as you say, far too much of his UK knowledge seems gleamed from wiki sources. Still, whatever. This is not just a UK-only blog.

  • Comment number 36.

    COCONUT!

    32 kevseywevsey wrote:

    Diana Abbot: If this woman was white, any accusation of racism could easily stick. Don't take my word on it, go listen to what she said.

    -----------------------------

    Well, you certainly could not describe Ms Abbott of being a 'coconut'.

    Coconut insult councillor guilty of racial harassment
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7859260/Coconut-insult-councillor-guilty-of-racial-harassment.html

    It's always amusing, when hearing of a story whereby a member of one racial minority is accused of racism by a member of another racial minority, to imagine what hubris would be unleashed if a white person were to have uttered the same words.

    Radio 4's Today programme tried it's very best to defend the use of the word 'coconut' by the Bristol City councillor this morning.

  • Comment number 37.

    fabulous newsnight...production values on the Tony Bennet piece were immense and a good way to end the show...NN is watched all over the world and it is gratifying to know that in these austere Fox ridden times we have people on the production team at NN who go the extra mile to ensure these values remain in place...God help us if another set of philistines get fiddling...we have the best so let's keep it..

  • Comment number 38.

    31

    ..but an actual Science..

    yes. models of human organisation should be able to demonstrate benefits. Some models will give more benefits than others and so can be ranked in preference. Some are closer to the good than others. it is rational to choose that which has more good.

    But there i go with that word good. the marxists hate that word because it implies discrimination or bias for that which is good. which they say is an 'oppression'. China [its model] 'works' because it operates outside of the rule of law, human rights and international standards and agreements and depends upon a gulag system of control.

    some say we should have that here because 'it works'.

    i agree with you on co op partnership model especially for public services.

  • Comment number 39.

    #38: give those idiots a choice between living in a mansion with a sports car, or else a filthy sleeping bad in a shop doorway, and see how long they can maintain their "all is equal" philosophy. There ARE some that would still follow that, and for them i have respect, but many of those Foolish Philostophers would not. Nuff said.

    China's model most certainly does NOT work, their productivity rates a FAR behind the Scandinavian countries, for example, who have instead aimed at high education, pleasant and respectful working environments, with worker participation and democracy.

    plus, China is now experiencing the beginnings of what in previous centuries would have been called a Slave or Peasant Revolt.

    'You can Oppress Some of the People All of the Time, You can Oppress ALL of the People some of the Time, but you can't Oppress...' ;)


    in fact, the coop partnership model works vastly better in the Private Sector, certainly better than any current feudal economic structures. The Public Sector just needs more built-in democracy, both from the Staff as well as the Public. Transparency etc.

 

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