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Wednesday 20 January 2010

Verity Murphy | 12:47 UK time, Wednesday, 20 January 2010


"The BBC, who have seen the report, they say the summary and the full report don't match up. Aren't we in danger of having a cover-up if we don't publish it in full?"
David Cameron challenging Gordon Brown in prime minister's question time today over a decision to publish a summary of a report into a brutal attack on two boys in Edlington rather than the full report.

On Monday's Newsnight, our reporter Liz MacKean revealed how the full report into the incident showed a catalogue of missed opportunities and mistakes by nine agencies, including social services, in Doncaster over 14 years (read more and watch that film here).

It spelled out how the assault was not only predictable, it was entirely preventable.

Tonight, we return to that story and the question of whether the results of the serious case review should be published in full, or whether, as the prime minister claims it would jeopardise the anonymity of the children involved in the case and their freedom to speak freely to the inquiry.

And we look at the major political setback suffered by Barack Obama following the election of a Republican senator, Scott Brown, to replace the late Ted Kennedy, who had held the seat for 47 years.

What are the implications for Obama's healthcare legislation and his presidency?

We will be speaking to former Democratic National Committee chairman Howard Dean.

Also, the governor of the Bank of England, Mervyn King, has again warned the government about the need to cut the public deficit.

And this morning Fitch - one of the three agencies that assess the government's credit-worthiness - said that the government's current plan to halve the deficit by 2014 "is too slow".

Tonight, Paul Mason will be assessing those warnings and asking who we should believe.

Join Jeremy at 10.30pm on BBC Two.

Tonight's programme is in a state of flux at the moment because Tory leader David Cameron just clashed with Gordon Brown in this week's PMQs with a series of questions based on Liz MacKean's Edlington report on Monday.

The Tory leader is calling for the full inquiry into the brutal attack on two boys by two young brothers to be published and demanded to know why the government had taken so long to intervene.

We are intending to lead on the story tonight and also look at the major political setback suffered by Barack Obama following the election of a Republican senator, Scott Brown, to replace the late Ted Kennedy, who had held the seat for 47 years.

What are the implications for Obama's healthcare legislation and his presidency?

Also, Paul Mason has a report linked to credit rating agencies.

More details later.

PS If you watched the programme last night you will have seen that one item failed to broadcast, one of the treasures from our archive dug out as we approach our 30th anniversary. That clip is now on our site and you can watch it here.


  • Comment number 1.

    The BNP have decided to blame bad election results on the ballot box procedures as opposed to most of the population despising their National Socialist origins, unscientific racial ideology, the many criminals that have populated their ranks, the stench of holocaust denial.

    No doubt this is because there will be a higher turnout and probably not so much of a protest vote and so they have to get their excuses in early.

    But given putting the seals on the box would bring them into contact with council staff, who could be intimidated by their reputations and "unassociated" English Defence League people, should perhaps all of the parties now have to put on seals.

    Also will the police have to be present and determine whether the seal is "viable". If they put on a seal that is too brittle and breaks with vibration then they may try to overturn votes.

    You only have to have read this page in the past to become clear that these National Socialists don't like democracy and if they can make it not work they will.

    On the English Defence League has Newsnight continued its investigation into who is behind it and what their plans, if any, are for the election?

  • Comment number 2.

    Is the loss of Ted Kennedys seat any thing more than a combination of voter fear stoked up by the partisan Fox news business interests and a poor campaign based no doubt on some arrogance that they could not lose a Kennedy seat?

    I hope so as the thought of Fox news's representative in politics, Sarah Palin, becoming a President will make Dubya Bush look like a political genius.

    The rest of the world (alleged communists and NHS lovers) can only hope that the Democrats get their acts together.

  • Comment number 3.

    Another good report from Liz MacKean on Edlington. Are there also to be further reports on the Baby P case and whether the batterer and lodger were natural monsters or monsters created by the system? Are there more in the pipeline?

  • Comment number 4.

    On Haiti and with hindsight supplies were not parachuted in because of the shortage of staff to preserve security and make sure criminal gangs did not possess them.

    Given the length of time it has taken to get supplies in, and some people are probably still in need, people must have died.

    So in future if the infrastructure is broken and there is no functioning government could we not have a UN resolution that would absolve the UN staff from the act of hurting some in the hope of helping many others and simply saturate the areas with supplies.

    If the criminals get hold of some who cares as if there is an excess of supply they can't distort the rescue strategy too much.

  • Comment number 5.

    Following on from Xmas day attempted bombing it seems that some on the Watch list may be prohibited from flying. Probably their employment prospects are affected.

    If that is the case will there be a commensurate compensation package for those who have been put on the list due to malicious acts and have had their employment and travel arrangements interfered with?

    Will there be some mechanism that would be able to bring such cases to light with all due consideration to security?

  • Comment number 6.

    You cannot help but feel sorry for Obama. The totally unreal expectations of his presidency has doomed it it from the start - where are the luvvies today? The Massachusetts result has not only crashed his admirable plans for health care in the US for reasons which seem unbelievable to Europeans, but also his "cap and trade" legislation is dead in the water. This at least gives the world a chance to address the real problems of unemployment, poverty , development and war rather than listening to the Cassandras of the environmental movement who were described as "shysters" by Norman Tebbitt today.

  • Comment number 7.


    Today Cameron rebuked Brown for his usual contemptuous technique of pretend-chatting to a colleague, while Cameron was addressing him.
    Routinely, we see front-benchers chat while their leader delivers.
    The whole chamber chats while back-benchers struggle to be heard. There is one word for all this: DISRESPECT.
    It is the same disrespect that Westminster shows for the voters.
    It is the lower end of the SPECTRUM OF NASTINESS, that runs right through British Culture today, culminating in children beating and killing children.

    Until we purge this land of the Westminster Evil, governance in Britain will never draw to itself those of a sufficient calibre to tackle the Spectrum of Nastiness, and the horrors of 'civilisation' will continue.

  • Comment number 8.

    #4. You make a fair point.
    When the invasion of Afghanistan started I remember that thousands of individual army ration packs were scattered out of the backs of aircraft to the population below.
    That probably was a PR move (no more was heard of it afterwards) but shows that distribution of food that way is viable.

    Water is obviously more problematic, but drinks in sachets might survive an airdrop.
    It should also be possible for the planes doing such drops not to need to land in Haiti itself, but to just deliver their payload and then return to base.
    In a situation such as Haiti last weekend, surely something must be better than nothing.

  • Comment number 9.

    If you have a plain simple easy to remember slogan with which to rally the ‘troops’ inevitably it allows all individuals amongst the many to interpret as to it’s real meaning.

    “Yes we can.” is a classic example for future historians.

    What does it mean? In reality... only what the individual chooses to make of it. Their dreams, their aspirations, their heritage, their needs?

    Obama knowingly let the electorate believe that they could have without actually telling them about the reality of politics and government. Lack of understanding. unwillingness to hear or chosen ignorance of the system by those on the street allowed the ‘average Joe’ to believe what suited them best. But life is not that generous.

    The slogan may well have read ......

    Yes .... We can all eat cake!

    With the Democrats losing its latest seat in the house the truth is being made plain ...

    The “american dream” is little more than ....

    ..... lionized greed hiding behind a well rehearsed myth.

    Oh .... Yes...

    As it has already cropped up on another of today’s posts ....

    What is the current betting on the number of seats won at the next election won by the BNP ......

    I’d put money on three plus, and a couple more independents and, at a push,perhaps one green.

    Beware! Unless the three ‘big ones’ face hard facts the era of the “small ones” is increasingly being thrust upon us.

    Oh .... Yes...

    Should the right to wear the Crucifix really be protected in this day and age?

  • Comment number 10.

    #6 Trefor Jones

    DON'T CRY FOR ME I'M OBAMA ........

    ".....You cannot help but feel sorry for Obama. The totally unreal expectations of his presidency has doomed it it from the start -"

    Not sure I can have much sympathy for someone who believed their own hype, especially on the back of being the FIRST anything rather than the BEST. Doesn't say much for his discernment or wisdom (a phrase much lauded on here by BS) and possibly even less for his long term personal goals and motivation to undertake 'ruler of the world' on our behalves.

    Perhaps he hopes to earn like his predecessors on both sides of the Atlantic on the motivational speakers tour.

    I used to have more sympathy for those who undertook positions of high power/responsibility and then aged 20 years in two weeks. No more.

    They made their beds, usually strewn with rose petals in the first instance of their own favourite colour and fragrance. And they LIE in them. And we get the Thorns in our Flesh.

    THE TRUTH IS I ALWAYS LOVED ...............ME!

  • Comment number 11.


    when words are mere ritual then its ok to talk through them because they have no content or meaning. It's like having the tv on in the background?

  • Comment number 12.

    US Rejecting Obama Eco-Fascism ?

    I suspect that many former Obama supporters are not voting against health care, just the pathetic current health care proposals that wont benefit any US citizens, just a welfare state for the health companies in its present form. The real elephant in the room is the Climate Change Scam after Obama flew to Copenhagen and associated himself with the Corporate Nazi eco-fascist carbon taxers. From the posts on YouTube it would appear that there is a healthy debate going on in the US regarding the climate change scam, it may be the case that the prospect of blocking any proposals on climate change were the key factor in Obama's apparent implosion in public support ?

    Putting myself in the shoes of the average " independent " or " progressive " Democrat leaning US voter keen to promote true equality in US society, I could actually see myself now voting Republican in protest. I suspect that many of those who supported Obama at the presidential election are at least extremely peeved with where the progress of the health bill stands. As drafted at the moment it is little better than a welfare state for the health insurance industry and not really worth the paper it is written on and little better than the status quo.

    Obama has failed to come up with his promise to the poor on health care, then he flies off to Copenhagen and associates himself with the Carbon Tax Corporate Nazi eco-fascists. He also allowed CO2 to be classified as a pollutant when it is clearly essential to life on our planet. Any intelligent voter can see that even if Obama had got the most important " public option " in his health bill, carbon taxes would have more than destroyed any potential gain to the overall quality of life for the US citizen.

  • Comment number 13.


    I'm thinking . . .

  • Comment number 14.


    I have just been watching Chilcott. I was struck by a casual reference to 9/11 as an unquestioned 'marker' in the Al Qaida offensive, and American War on Terror. Those who have taken the trouble to enquire (including many in USA - especially NYC) no longer accept this 'given'.

    It is the same with Man-made Climate Change: politicians and other blinkered species, still regard it as 'settled' - it isn't - quite the reverse.

    There will come a day when the 'critical mass' that is building, will obtrude into the general consciousness. This will impinge on all manner of 'Western enterprise', currently in train, with unpredictable outcomes. Certainly the 'fool or knave' question to Obama (King of the World) will be: DID YOU KNOW?

  • Comment number 15.


    Ah, the truth, Brightyangthing, well worth fighting for.


  • Comment number 16.

    credit agencies

    these are the same people who gave us triple A mortgage backed securities?

    As for all this moving to Geneva talk lets not forget these so called financial geniuses can only be so in their mind? Also the Turtle traders showed anyone with 2 weeks training can be a financial genius? So its no big loss if a few greedy 'i am's' go off in a huff?

  • Comment number 17.

    :o) Well done all at Newsnight!
    Thanks to the crew for getting the Edlington issue out into the public arena and into PMQ's. If it wasn't for the thorough Newsnight investigation, who knows how many more children would have been killed. Of course the entire report should be publicised, and not just a mere summary. Surely, by publishing the entire report, children would be better protected, and we would never have another Baby Peter or any other tragedy similar again. The current system is NOT working, so it is about time things changed.

  • Comment number 18.

    Iraq inquiry

    Mark Lyall-Grant evidence.

    because iraq will still not recognise the border with kuwait many of the saddam era UN resolutions against Iraq are still in place!!!! Saudi Arabia has not yet normalised their relationship with Iraq because they see iraq as sectarian [shia]

    the uk took a reputational hit because of the invasion. But palestine is still the poison in well in how the uk is seen abroad.

    the uk still hasn't sorted out the funding streams for iraq and afghanistan. The joint pools of money idea have been a failure and leads to serious disputes between govt department and takes up huge chunks of senior official time with squabbling over minor amounts of money [mainly because it was not 'new money' but had to be found from existing budgets]. Lots of 'good ideas' were/are therefore not funded.

    one thing that appeared from the questions was the claim the uk got a special relationship with the usa because they joined they war looks a bit hollow given the current relationship the USA now has with Germany and France who opposed the war. Which suggests the Uk would have been no worse off in terms of usa if they too had opposed the war or insisted on a second resolution?

  • Comment number 19.

    #16 jaunty...

    ‘London Banker Exodus to Geneva Runs Into Housing and School Shortages’

  • Comment number 20.

    #16 jaunty...


    Try Googling 'The Turtle Experiment'.

    The experiment proved that ANYONE can be taught to trade well.

    As one investment banker stated on Radio 4 this morning...'a monkey in a suit' could have made huge profits just by sitting on a pile of current assets (that couldn't be sold early last year!)....How you may ask? just booking the profit on an asset valued on 31-Dec-09 compared with the value booked on 1-Jan-09. Where's the talent in that?

    Nice work if you can get it though!

  • Comment number 21.

    Don't get me started on credit rating agencies.!!!..if we really start looking at the root causes of this depression...'they' might be somewhere near the bottom!

    (along with the accountants and their 'mark to fantasy' accountancy standards!

  • Comment number 22.

    iraq inquiry

    Sir David Omand evidence

    the cabinet secretary isn't necessarily in the loop on intelligence and it would be wrong to assume that. It is the JIC that is in the loop.

    if one looks at govt activity one would see a 'confused picture'. It was impossible to put it down on paper how the govt was structured given the mushrooming of downing st/cabinet 'units'. There wasn't enough money to fund all these units. The cabinet office was even struggling to find the money to buy the latest licence for microsoft office.

    it was a push for the small unit on iraq to do anything as they were also required to work on counter terrorism.

    there is a tension in govt/ intelligence between the policy approach of shaping the world to match your demands and the academic approach of trying to organise facts into a structure and draw a hypothesis from them. The policy maker would say 'that is all very well just try harder'. The adversarial political system means politicians are not going to talk about making decisions on the balance of the evidence. They will say the evidence backs without question their choice.

    He confesses his mistake of combing the evidence with the policy and wouldn't do it again.

    you can never say from intelligence 'you know something'. Chilcott raised the groupthink theory about why everyone was convinced saddam had wmd.

    Academics said iraq infrastructure was in a worse state than intelligence gave credit. These sort of open sources were ignored.

    Agencies would be looking at every word of the dossier. He failed to spot the problem with the phrase 'without doubt'. He never liked the idea of a dossier of intelligence in the first place and predicted the problems it would cause.

    the cia did not believe [unlike the Pentagon] there was a link bewteen AQ and iraq. the first AQ bomb plot was disrupted in birmingham in 2000.
    They warned that an attack on uk would radicalise uk muslims and that the uk was an AQ high level target

    50 people from the uk tried to join the jihadists in iraq. The uk intelligence community did not use the the 'war on terror' narrative.

    he warns that greater care must be taken over threatening military action because once you take that route it has its own momentum and takes over and no longer becomes uncontrollable.

    he gave a good outline of intelligence thinking processes. One of the more interesting witnesses.

  • Comment number 23.


    Try Googling 'The Turtle Experiment'......

    i do raise that point in a previous post. People think there is some wizard of oz running things but its clear the way to make money is either have the govt back your lossess or run a ponzi scheme or be content with average profits.

    it is the need for super profit that drives people into excess. let geneva have them. At least one old profession will see a boost in profits there.

  • Comment number 24.


    ...and no longer becomes uncontrollable...

    should read

    and no longer becomes controllable.

  • Comment number 25.

    So Jeremy Paxman has decided that the Conservatives will win the election. I quote his words :" Philip Hammond who will be in charge of reducing spending" Really?

  • Comment number 26.



    No child died in Edlington issue. Perhaps what the 'victims' there (and I controversially perhaps include the perpetrators in that number) will suffer will be far worse than death in the long run.

    "....we would never have another Baby Peter or any other tragedy similar again. "

    Oh really? How so? I am afraid that is just too simplistic and idealistic. It WON'T HAPPEN!!!!!!!!! EVER. Protection of ALL life at ALL costs may not even be ultimately desirable

    ".....Of course the entire report should be publicised, and not just a mere summary."

    The problem with this statement is it considers only one of two options -FULL PUBLIC disclosure, which I think would be totally wrong, OR NO PUBLIC disclosure, which I think would be totally wrong.

    FULL selected disclosure - to relevant agencies and individuals MAY have some benefit for the future.

    I am far more concerned with the fact that we seem to be unable to stem the growth of seriously dysfunctional families. With the numbers of children being born into several generations and multiple layers of people unable or unwilling to provide even the basic level of care required for safe and healthy growth.

    Most of the options to put a full stop to such horrors are usually deemed rather unpalatable to the public at large, who always appear rather squeamish at the thought of state controlled conception (mis) and are often accompanied by name calling. Many would rather wait until more of these horrific events occur, then bay for the blood of the 'perpetrators', happy to inflict draconian punishments (even unto death) on those who are perhaps of themselves victims. Punishment MUST be delivered, the innocent MUST be protected but so too, surely MUST compassion and an attempt to rehabilitate.

  • Comment number 27.


    I heard that too, but took it to have been merely a prematurely curtailed (incomplete) thought being voiced. Just add "If the polls are to be believed" or "if they win....."

  • Comment number 28.

    #25 Good god Marjorie I hope and pray it's not the other lot. ; )

  • Comment number 29.

    :p Is it any wonder Howard Dean lost? Obamamania is fading away fast, and all of his promises have been broken. Excellent interviews by Jeremy with Dean and Hammond & Hutton.

    However, Jeremy did an outstanding interview with Timpson & Mann on the Edlington case. Mann was shown up to be absolutely pathetic, and her excuses dismissed. Mann even used the phrase "lessons to be learned." I nearly screamed! It is correct, as pointed out by Jeremy, that the summary is ineffective and is for people too lazy to read a serious report in a serious case. Timpson's proposal of having a regime change (as in the Mental Health Homicide Inquiries) the information is anonymised but there is a full account of events given was excellent. Mann failed to convince otherwise.

    Very interesting reports by both Paul & Katty
    And well done Liz & Co too :o)

  • Comment number 30.

    @ Marjorie #25 - isn't it already a foregone conclusion? Try looking at the opinion polls :p

  • Comment number 31.


    There is, surely, more than enough MISconception (see #26) to make up the numbers. Indeed, misconception is usually a pastime for dysfunctional folk.

    What is more, if we are willing to entice our young into getting killed in pursuit of 'Famous Victories' (Richard Southey) then we clearly hold life cheap as a nation.

    In reality, Britain HERSELF is dysfunctional. Read Oliver James and weep. Our culture, and underlying ethos, in every walk of life is unsustainable.

    'Grawth' will not save us from hell on earth.

  • Comment number 32.

  • Comment number 33.

    The boys involved in the Edlington attack seem from all the available evidence to be nascent serial killers, something that could have been easily spotted, yet we have a report about the "failings" in this case, I wonder what would happen if I deliberately allowed a serial killer to be out on the streets committing violent assaults, I'm sure as I'm not an employee of any arm of government I would be charged with conspiracy, tried in a court and found guilty.

    As far as being worried about the Gilts market, right now the Bank of England is the Gilts market, if they continue printing money to pay for Gilts the Pound will take a dive, on the other hand if they don't then the interest rates will rise meaning that the government will have to issue more Gilts just to pay off the interest on the old ones, does this sound familiar? Yes, that's what Bernie Madoff did, get some new suckers in to pay off the old ones, it's a pyramid scheme and we all know how that ends. There is no way out of this box the government has made for this country, just so Labour could get elected on the phoney prosperity they created from 97 onwards, the only question is when and how it fails.

  • Comment number 34.


    When I worked for a year in Krefeld, Germany (1969) I was a 'bloody foreigner' AND I ACCEPTED IT.

    Over the last 100 years, rather than pay a 'going rate' for bottom-end labour, the rulers of this country have seen fit to entice 'bloody foreigners' to do our carp work, on the cheap. Clearly, way back, we just regarded them as human carp, and (in our British arrogance) felt no need to consider where this might lead. With passing time, we continued the practice of screwing our own, by importing cheap 'bloody foreigners' and by now, they were looking decidedly different from 'home brew'. Now we have ghettoes, where English is not first language and some know hardly a word of it. We have (to my never-ending amazement) a Black Police Association and, today, some brown ones who are 'not happy' with some judge. Good ere innit?

    WHAT I WANT NEWSNIGHT TO INVESTIGATE IS: what brings the different groups here? Do they know (as I did in Germany) that they are 'bloody foreigners' (overtly or covertly)? Do they realise they were 'bought' by disgraceful politicians, to be exploited? Are they disappointed? Disaffected? Appalled? Angry? Find out, Newsnight, please.

  • Comment number 35.

  • Comment number 36.

    #34 Barrie that's what worries me when I see people here writing of local government and each county with it's own regulation. We now have many areas that virtually have no indigenous people in, what new laws and ways of living would happen all over britan? Yugoslavia in reverse?

    Why do these people feel they have so much say, why did they come here if they didn't like our democracy, surely that's why they came?! Not to set up enclaves entirely removed from our way of living. Is it our fault, have we not welcomed them? They always say the common man in the street never see colour or different culture, but is that really true? What happens if our feral youth get totally out of control, will we end up with riots and street fighting.

    I would add that these same feral youth are the ones who volunteered to fight for king and country in the past, they are the only tough rough fighting element here. The rest of us just wring our hands and say what should we do, we must accommodate everybodys rights, while sinking our own way of life. Almost to an amoral degree, things which we held sacred, such as the rights of women, cruelty to animals (halal), education for all, seem to be able to bend in the wind, if some new people say it's got to be another way. We are morally bankrupt, we give in to all and sundry, and our indigenous people seem to have no standards anymore. Is that because they just don't know how to behave as it's a constantly moving target.

  • Comment number 37.

    DO IT............... AND BE DAMNED.

    This item appears to highlight how much misinformation and fear is built around discrimination laws.

    A parent makes unreasonable demands and a head teacher chooses to 'punish' ????? how many children because of a lack of a specific ability of one.

    How then does the head teacher justify PE lessons, Sports Day, Playground breaks? What about the parents who cannot afford to pay for such trips for their offspring? What about those not bright enough to sit a particular exam? ......

    WHAT is this country coming to?

    I have a friend whose 17 year old son suffered a devastating broken neck just before Christmas. Their lives have been turned upside down and inside out and the changes they all have to make for their lives from now on, if the long term prognosis of 90% paralysis is born out is ind boggling.

    I understand the frustration this child (or perhaps it is just the parent) MUST feel, but such minorities must surely NOT be able to close down ALL activiites that they are not able to participate in.

    I woudl personally urge all right thinking people to take account of and be sensitive to those with fewer opportunities, give consideration to equality and blatant discrimination in all manners and walks of life - BUT THEN

    Apply 'Uncommon sense'



    DO IT ANYWAY...................

  • Comment number 38.

    EBONY AND .............. (Insert politically correct current terminology here)

    ".....What happens if our feral youth get totally out of control, will we end up with riots and street fighting."

    Lizzy (#36)
    This scenario occured where I grew up in North West London - and became very pronounced in the early/mid seventies.

    Gang warfare on streets: guns, fire bombs, rape, beatings, buildings ransacked........... on a daily basis. Little of which ever made the news. Because it was common place - not news.

    The gangs were West Indian Blacks against Asians from Kenya, Uganda and the Asian subcontinent. It was very tribal.

  • Comment number 39.

    Your clip from 30 Years of Newsnight shows Cherie Blair insinuating, as she has done many times in the past, that opportunities for women is a recent development. This is an attitude that serves the dual purpose of presenting herself as a doughty pioneer who made it against all the odds and her mother as a down-trodden victim of unfair social attitudes and political practises. It is an attitude beloved by first generation educated Labour luvvies and its wrong.
    In my own family five cousins, north east miner daughters who were variously orphaned at 14, lost fathers in WW1 or in a pit accident, all went to university and got degrees between 1910 and 1920. The opportunities have always been there. Its just that then as now not everyone took them up.
    Anyone who looks into their family history will find women doing and owning all sorts of extraordinary things and to propagate the myth that women had no status in society until now is to misrepresent history for political purposes.

  • Comment number 40.


    One thing is undeniable: In modern terms, Nature is NOT FAIR.

    Labour and Tory are in a fairness competition. This will ensure we ratchet another few notches towards an un-natural place, by the time the election is over. As I type, Clegg must be agonising over how to be POSITIVELY UNFAIR - the only ground left. Will he bottle it?

    I keep re-stating our dual nature: animal/cerebral - I find this relevant. Were we also mature and civilised, our goal should be to EMBRACE unfairness - give it its due - but TEMPER it with wise counsel and practice. There you go Nick!

    Anyone know the size of the Election War Chests, this time round? £20M? £30M? Double that for the total expenditure. By the end, all the simple folk will think that 'fairness' is the elixir of life, the Holy Grail, the standard by which all acts are measured.

    But is it FAIR that we will all have to look at Dave's REAL FACE (the pink budgerigar one) rather than the POSTER PROMISE? Time for the plastic surgery Dave.


  • Comment number 41.

  • Comment number 42.


    It's all down to spacetime 76. 'They' are not where we are.

    Another approach is to see Islaam as 600 years younger than Christianity.
    Take a look at what 'God-fearing Christians were doing to their own, 600 years ago.

    Do you rescue small animals from cat-jaws? My #40 refers - I think.

  • Comment number 43.

    WE'LL DO IT ................... OUR WAY!


    ".....Another approach is to see Islaam as 600 years younger than Christianity.
    Take a look at what 'God-fearing Christians were doing to their own, 600 years ago."

    So True! So sad that as a species we appear unable (or is it unwilling by dint of greed and a false sense of righteousness) to learn by other's mistakes.

    We appear far too certain that we have the RIGHT to make the same ones that history has recorded as wrong - purely in the name of FAIRNESS!!!

    They WANT what we HAD, even if they saw how SICK, what WE had MADE us............ (doh)

  • Comment number 44.

    A story published in Al Watan, a foreign owned English language newspaper distributed by the Herald Tribune, published an article about something that hasn't happened to one 13 year old in Saudi Arabia. A vaguely named 'foreign service' then reproduces it in a shock horror version in the Daily Mail and you all use it as an excuse to ride your anti-Islam hobbyhorses.

  • Comment number 45.

    On the Edlington case, I don't have all the details of the background but I understand from the news reports that the perpetrators were known to socila services. My mother worked for many years in the health service with children with behavioural problemd and encountered many social workers over the period. My mother is admittedly very "old school" but one of her main complaints over social workers was that they too often took the easy option. By this she meant that they too often avoided confontation with parents - you know the scenario, the parents are intinidating and have the mandatory pit bull. This seems to be a factor running through a number of the recently reported cases involving social workers. I appreciate that the job of a social worker is not easy - by god, I would not want to spend my time visiting these families in inner city sink estates. That said, if a social worker cannot cope with this and is unwilling or unable to ask difficult questions and confront parents then perhaps they are in the wrong job.

  • Comment number 46.

    "..... you all use it as an excuse to ride your anti-Islam hobbyhorses."

    Sorry MaggieL, but


    I see only one hobby horse in view since a link to a daily wail story was posted (and ignored)!

  • Comment number 47.

    Sorry brightyangthing. You're quite right . My excuse is that this site is so infested by Adolph Hitler and Islamaphobia that I'm starting to anticipate it before it appears.

  • Comment number 48.


    Mohammed somehow persuaded his followers not to use alcohol as a crutch in life. THERE IS CLEAR EVIDENCE FOR THAT TODAY. Jesus, however, is reported as doing various stunts to impress his followers, one of which was WATER INTO WINE! Though the widespread use of wine is hardly proof of this!

    Both branches of Abraham's folly went on to inflict terror and nastiness (drunk or sober) on their fellow 'images of God'.

    I eschew faith altogether. And hobbyhorses are definitely dodgy - Freud said so. (:o)

  • Comment number 49.

    katty kay is kind of kooky?

    social work

    the nihilist moral relativists have created a reign of terror that prevents anyone from taking responsibility that exposes them to prosecution. So the default position has become to do nothing. The moral relativists deny there is anything called the good which is why their regime does not promote it.

    does anyone know how in a few short years the uk went from a society where people in the 1970s could leave their doors and cars unlocked without fear to people in 2010 needing cctv on their homes and serious security on their cars? this change in the national character is not an accident. It coincides with the rise of the moral relativists and their desire to deny their is something called 'the good' or even society. they did not replace it with a better model but merely insist there is no such thing as the good and enshrined it in law.

    so now people are no longer responsible for using their power in bad ways but criminals are considered 'victims'. Bad behaviour is rewarded by the social security system, the effects of bad behaviour are treated by the nhs and the only people who are attacked are those who point out there is a power of choice and no one is a victim of their own power of choice.

    social services have no model of a human being so how will they ever know what is wrong and therefore spot warning signs?

  • Comment number 50.

    47...My excuse is that this site is so infested by Adolph Hitler and Islamaphobia that I'm starting to anticipate it before it appears....

    bearing false witness is not an excuse. who is infesting this site with the views you mention? names dates please. How many is an infestation?

  • Comment number 51.

    Anyone willing to look again and admit any minor misjudgement/misunderstanding gets an A*+ in my book.


    I come back to this
    " so infested by Adolph Hitler and Islamaphobia"

    I understand where that feeling comes but if you really read what is said (and often more importantly NOT said) you may find that what appears is merely a debate about the ACTUAL state/order of the world, how we got here and if there is any way back (NOT OUT) rather than any specific individuals supporting vile acts to remove ANY groups from the mix.

    And I also take issue with the use of Phobia/phobic . A shame this suffix is so frequently appended. Our language is so rich and expressive there must be better words/phrases. Angst???, especially since in my experience; Fear (of the unknown, of change) may be involved, but Terror and Dread (the level indicated by the use of PHOBIA) are very seldom the emotions in force. The strength of language is incommensurate to the feelings.

    So Fear – Perhaps. Misunderstanding – Yes. Ignorance – Certainly. Difference of opinion/view – Rightly. Different is NOT always wrong.

    Tolerance is best practiced when there is discourse, difference of opinion and even dissent.

    I don’t think it helpful to tar all those who have any issues with outpouring of religious intolerance, alternative lifestyle choices or any other (dis)comfort zones with the broad and indiscriminate brush of PHOBIC.

    And where intolerance does exist (and it does) put up a sound argument.

  • Comment number 52.


    Yes - often of state sponsored alcohol. But brewing-and-supply, policing, probation service, prisons - even rehab - are all sources of EMPLOYMENT; dare I even suggest GRAWTH INDUSTRIES?

    My take on naughty British government, is that taxation of degradation is VERY ATTRACTIVE.
    Mr Hyde-Brown stealth-taxes a carp country, and Jekyll-Brown steps blithely about the global village handing out shiny sixpences to needaninnies.

    It is going to take a hell of a lot of fixing, even with kooky Katty on-side.

  • Comment number 53.


    The 'Phobia' calumny nailed in timely fashion BYT.

    Funny that the Jews settled for the simple prefix 'anti' as that allows for an element of reason in an anti-Semitic stance! Whereas Islamophobia is - de facto - 'irrational'. Should they upgrade to Semitophobia, or more precisely - Judeophobia?

    Seems to me the irrationality resides mostly in those who set out to vilify.

    Straw is in danger of a broken back at Chilcott - VERY revealing.
    ONE common factor in all main witnesses: GUARDED. But just what are they guarding and why?

  • Comment number 54.

    #52 probation service, prisons - even rehab - are all sources of EMPLOYMENT; dare I even suggest GRAWTH INDUSTRIES?

    Hhhmm Barrie my daughter in law would say, if only! A fully qualified psychiatric nurse, on a mental ward in a prison. Only her and one other qualified nurse, the rest are now "health assisstants", the cutbacks have already removed one nurse, and all new appointments have been cancelled. Because of the nature of the work, often staff are away ill or simply demoralised. They are severely understaffed, working with men with personality disorders. Where the Edlington two will probably end up one day.

  • Comment number 55.


    Oh Lizzy! I am already in trouble elsewhere. NOT IMPUGNING THE JOB ITSELF! I couldn't do it. Just can't help wondering (Sir Humphry dances in my head daily) if the bloody politicians have done the sums (as with alcohol and tobacco) and worked out that crime pays. Oh no! I just realised that would be on a par with Sadam and Chemical Ali. The slow destruction of 'our own people' yielding jobs. AND WHAT DO JOBS MAKE?


    Sincere regards to D i L.

  • Comment number 56.

    #55 No Barrie I couldn't do her job for all the tea in China! One forgets that when a criminal is locked up and they throw away the key, someone has to look after them for a very long time! She has commented that 80% of them have mental illness of some sort, and you have to have eyes in the back of your head, and always be on your guard. Luckily she's a very bright girl, and can see when someone's going to kick off, and then she has to calm the situation. That and the restraining training she's had! : (

  • Comment number 57.


    If only Brown could prize individual human grawth over his bloody Mammonic kind, our society would generate fewer jail-fodder and your daughter-in-law could use her talents in a better-funded environment, more conducive to sustainable outcomes.

    Mind you, if Brawn hadn't managed to be PM, he would probably be inside himself, with all the destructive personality traits he has. (:o)



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