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Friday 18 December 2009 - in more detail

Len Freeman | 16:59 UK time, Friday, 18 December 2009

Here is Kirsty with more about tonight's Newsnight and Newsnight Review - the last programmes before our Christmas and New Year break - we return until 4 January 2010:

"Wonderful, wonderful Copenhagen" croons Danny Kaye, but, "terrible, terrible Copenhagen" is tonight sounding more apt, as it may go down in history as the place where the Little Mermaid sang her siren call this week and a big climate deal almost hit the rocks.

We'll have the very latest on this day of frenzied activity to try to pull something half-way workable out of the waves.

Can arguments over money and transparency be resolved? Can Obama and Wen Jibao do a deal? Is Ed Miliband tearing his hair out? How is the Danish Environment Minister Connie Hedegaard, who has given her all to this summit, bearing up?

We are inviting them to come onto the programme live to tell us.

And then we have a bumper edition of Newsnight Review in which Michael Gove, Paul Morley, Ekow Eshun and Natalie Haynes will be in a fabulously festive fighting mood as they range over some of the big controversies, bright lights of the year and the ways the cultural world is moving.

We'll be talking about Lars Von Trier's "Antichrist" which sent the critics at Cannes reeling and Andrea Arnold's quite brilliant "Fish Tank" which won the Jury Prize at Cannes.

We'll visit arguments over fictionalising history that ignited around Jonathan Littel's Holocaust epic, The Kindly Ones, and Quentin Tarantino's Jewish revenge fantasy Ingloriuos Basterds.

David Hare played investigative journalist to create The Power of Yes. Can theatre based on verbatim accounts ever really be drama? And there was more on the economic crisis in Lucy Prebble's powerful play Enron.
And was this the year when Twitter went from a simple gossip site to a revolutionary tool?

Then we look back at the noughties decade - the decade of Newsnight Review and remind you that the show is evolving into The Review Show which will still be live on Friday night in the same slot, and with many of our well loved contributors - and many more besides, and it will be 45 minutes rather than 30 minutes.

Make a date with our first show on January 22nd 2010.

Comments

Page 1 of 4

  • Comment number 1.

    more holocaust?

    Israeli MPs call for boycott of British goods

    ..in a move that will further strain already tense Anglo-Israeli relations, an initiative demanded a public boycott of all British products and airlines. It immediately attracted the support of nearly half of Israel's parliament, the Knesset.

    "It's a clear allusion to you-know-what," one official said. "That said, she's exploiting an authentic feeling of popular rage at what is perceived as a continuous British effort to single out Israel." ...

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/6834453/Israeli-MPs-call-for-boycott-of-British-goods.html

    more like israel demanding special treatment? to be above uk laws?

    given 30% of israels exports come to uk they clearly do not fear a similar response from the british people?

    also

    Livni crisis deepens as Israel bans UK visits

    ..“Brown’s weakness is not our problem,” said a diplomatic source in Jerusalem. “This is something that the British government has to solve..

    http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/25181/livni-crisis-deepens-israel-bans-uk-visits

    apparently its ok for their to be evidence of war crimes as long as you are 'a strategic partner'?

    which is not equal treatment before the law? if evidence meets the criteria the law should look at it without fear or favour?

  • Comment number 2.

    So the last Nn of 2009 begets the last Nn of the the decade! (Or is it the other way round? Or is it even “begets”? Perhaps a conjoined event? Best, ... a dual responsibility/identity!)

    So where does the passing of the decade leave the Corporation in this man’s eyes?

    It’s been a slow build up to an - incontestable - honour. The award for taking outstanding measures to follow the line of least resistance to avoiding offending anyone, anywhere, at any time - and for outstanding contribution to the ethos of “You will please all the people, all of the time. ........ Always!” goes to .... drum roll .......

    BBC News!

    The audience has gone mad!

    Or is it ..... The audience is maddened and going question mark period.

    So, does this translate to “The Corporation has dumbed down”?

    You bechya!

    And the award for the first broadcast organisation to increasingly disregard the independent,secular and unbiased reporting of news bulletins, reports and broadcasts goes to to ......

    Not a sound from the assembled glitterati, an unquestionable symbol of what is their outstanding respect for the absolute zenith of media awards ........

    The BBCeeeeee!!!!

    And the award for the widest gap between the reporting quality of two news/current affairs on the same channel goes to ......

    The BBCeeeeee!!!!

    Yes, the BBC has swept the board!

    Same again next year? ........

    Probably!

  • Comment number 3.

    Seasons Greeting to all at Newsnight, fellow nutters, bloggers friend and foe. Will do my best to avoid meeting or talking to any relative of mine and probably design jewellery, read Greek, pray the dogs next door don't engage their machine gun gobs, might even try to find Crick on me wireless.

  • Comment number 4.

  • Comment number 5.

    their basic problem is that scaremongering by those with a vested interest in creating a pot of gold through things they call carbon trading and 'climate justice' is not the same as 'science' no matter how many times you say it nor how many times you name call those who point that out as deniers and flat earthers.

    a ponzi scheme has no plan b. it merely depends upon the gullible believing in it.

  • Comment number 6.

    RUG RATS or RIVER RATS?

    We've been manipulated, tricked, played for fools, mugged, sold down the Yangtse, Ganges and the Limpopo rivers for what?

    The next Nobel Prize for Mr Obama? Just how big IS the trophy cabinet you seek to fill?

    What do rats smell like?



  • Comment number 7.

    Apologies for 'double dipping' but put this on wrong blog.


    IT’S THE WRONG ARGUMENT GROMIT!!!!!!!!!

    '...Can arguments over money and transparency be resolved?'

    Probably NOT! But who's surprised. Anyone with any basic common sense, a desire to seek the truth and a wider world view than world leaders and world leading journalists (you'd call them deniers or flat earthers) but perhaps without the titles, scientific qualifications, skewed value system and self financial based interest required to interest that powers that OUGHT NOT to be, have known for a very long time that it’s because it is entirely THE WRONG ARGUMENT .

    Come on Newsnight, as the year draws to a close, redeem yourself. Take a risk. Go out on a limb. Ask the question that others dare not ask. DOES the whole shebang really matter at all???????

    Can anyone hear you shout in cyber space?????????????????

    P.S. Think I’ll have a nice piece of Wensleydale instead.




  • Comment number 8.

    :o) Happy Holidays Everyone & A Very Happy New Year to All....
    ....and buy RATM's song "Killing in the name of" - all proceeds go to a homeless charity....

  • Comment number 9.

    "Can arguments over money and transparency be resolved? Can Obama and Wen Jibao do a deal?"

    The observation made by Lt Gen Sir Robert Fry at the Iraq War Inquiry should be equally applicable at the Copenhagen (previous blog 5 by jc)

    "there was an essential mismatch between the political ambitions on the world stage and the resources behind those ambitions. Any undertaking on the world stage should only happen if the full force of the nations resources are behind it."

    UK financial resources stand at approx MINUS 1 trillion dollars;
    China is said to be in POSITIVE credit to some 3 trillion dollars.
    How can Brown pledge UK to even further debt, ostensibly to assist other countries. Is this again political ambition on the world stage unbacked by resources - or by GBP support.

  • Comment number 10.





    Can anyone confirm or correct .........

    I seem to recall reading an article in a history periodical some years go that said that the original “Arbeit macht frei” greeting banner at Auschwitz was destroyed - during the liberation of the camp - by inmates. Thereby the missing article being in fact a replacement?

    Or have I got the wrong camp?

  • Comment number 11.

  • Comment number 12.

    DEAL OR NO DEAL

    This is from the NN blog 9th November

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/fromthewebteam/2009/11/monday_9_november_2009.html#P88261397

    NN were told there would be no deal. Regular bloggers here know the agenda of the 2005 G8 of climate change and Africa was based on my work. Copenhagen is a continuation of that work. As such I am probably the best Independent source for objective assess of the Copenhagen conference.

    Which was why an accurate assessment could be given in the NN in November.

    Probably the best strategy would have been to allow me to address the delegates, the provenance.

    failing that NN could have me on the programme in November and the NN audience could have been told of the conference before it happened.

    Liked the Precoott intro. Flown in from Copenhagen to give his assessment of the Conference. Check out he actual precise words on I player.

    Cophagen has reached the perfect agreement. No we can do it properly. Check the link the alternative plan was already posted.

    Viva Ia revolucion

    Celtic Lion

  • Comment number 13.

    NICE HAIR SHAME ABOUT THE DICTION

    Kirsty is getting beyond a joke. It is unfair - bordering on disrespectful - to assail non-English speakers with her personal brand of Manglish. (It might have been a poor link, but K was the only one not understood.)

    It is equally unconducive to assail anyone with Prezza being dynamic; but that's a different issue all-together.

    Is it me, or is she getting worse?

  • Comment number 14.

    Can someone tell the newsnight Review team that all shouting over one another doth not a good dialogue make... And also that the role of the Chair is to keep order and not allow this to happen. Every time someone starts to make a point one of the others yells them down. It's very irritating.

  • Comment number 15.

    Would it be possible for the men - particularly Ekow Eshun to stop interrupting - especially when Natalie Haynes is speaking? All I can hear is men in love with their own voices. It is annoying and doesn't do anything to enhance the viewer's enjoyment.

  • Comment number 16.

  • Comment number 17.

  • Comment number 18.

    FOR THE AVOIDANCE OF DOUBT (#13)

    I commented rather tersely on two non-English speakers having a problem with speech patterns.

  • Comment number 19.

    Big props to Natalie Haynes for mentioning "Dollhouse" as a cultural highlight of the 00s. I completely agree. Unfortunately I would imagine less than 0.1% of all people would feel the same way.

  • Comment number 20.

    Ah BUT..........

    #18

    Who the confuser? who the confused?

  • Comment number 21.

    I love Newsnight. I just had to say that.

    Also are any of tonight's guests on Twitter? I can't find Eko in search.

  • Comment number 22.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 23.

    #3

    Are you planning to communicate with us here, though, Streetphotobeing?
    It must feel very lonely not to be able to communicate with one's own family. How about your dad? Is he still grumpy or will you treat him again to a game of bowling?

    Hope the dogs behave themselves

    mim

  • Comment number 24.

    #7

    I agree with you 100%, Brightyangthing, on the shebang. It's absolutely of no relevance whether she does or whether she does not.

    I'm currently in quite a bit of pain down my bowels so may not be able to compose a good night ditty but suspect by the morning something will have sprung up to my mind unless Mistress76uk is dead serious about me kicking the bucket tonight. But she may not be talking about me at all.

    It's not a pleasant state of affairs to have found onself in trying to kill off somebody who's done one no harm. It's a sad, sad world.

    mim

  • Comment number 25.

    Lol, I’ve just had a tomato sprinkled with oil
    To be followed by ice cream sprinkled with rum
    With it I’m having the usual mango, blue berries and bits
    With bits being luxury dry fruit and coconut flakes
    Which always my taste buds happy it makes.

    The pain is receding, that’s why the ditty.
    Have a good night and dream dreams pretty.

    Earlier today, Lol, I've read up about the amazing qualities that mangoes and blue berries have on one's health. I didn't know it at all but it seems that the nutrients contained in them can be very protective all kinds of nasty ailments, bugs and bacteria.

    mim

  • Comment number 26.

    #23 continuation

    Streetphotobeing

    I've just read Michael Crick's thing about Gladstone and am extremely glad to have done so as I didn't know anything at all about him apart from the name itself.

    He strikes me as a fascinating man, driven to reforms dicated by his obviously free spirit and the love of freedom. Will have to read a bit more about him.

    So thank you for the indicator, Streetphotobeing and by the same token thanks to Michael Crick.

    mim

  • Comment number 27.

    Brightyangthing

    I still don't understand what the fuss about shebang is apart from perhaps her physical, artistic and mental energy. When I look at her there's not really much that she has going for her. And I honestly and truly think that. If not for lovely people that she meets here and there, like today in a private hospital where she went to earlier, she is not at all that confident. And I understand that when she dances or twirls the simply forgets about everything and feels quite happy.

    Oh, I could carry on like this for hours on end.
    What's the weather like in your part of the country? Here in London, despite all the warnings, the day ended up brill for most of the time anyway and cycling was not a problem whatsoever.

    mim

  • Comment number 28.

    #6
    Brightyangthing

    Considering the chaos at Copenhagen for most of the week, I think Obama did rather well although we still need to wait for the final declaration. For the time being I feel it's good that he has left the door open for further updates in the New Year.

    I'm delighted that he didn't listen to barriesingleton's recommendation to turn round and go back home! What a way to speak about the President of the USA while in the same breath declaring oneself to be the 'man' for the 'job'. I think singleton was referring to shebang as you've so aptly coined the phenomenon.

    Hope you'll be in touch tomorrow, Brightyangthing

    mim

  • Comment number 29.

    Brightyangthing, do you think the world is in the grip of psychosis
    With regard to this shebang whoever she might be?
    I’m currently listening to Beethoven’s Moonlight Sonata
    And did so also on going to sleep,
    While just before listened to a piece by Clarke Jeremiah’s
    ‘The Prince of Denmark Trumpet Voluntary’, that is.

    It’s still uncertain whether later I’m going to twirl.
    It’ll depend on the weather and the quality of ice,
    If I make it to Queensway where people are nice,
    Both at the Ice Rink and those working there
    Running their shops or places to eat.
    For me to be there is always a treat!

    mim

  • Comment number 30.

    Should anybody out there be interested in knowing more about me, my family and money, here's one detail:

    I'm just about to spend quite a considerable amount of dosh on my health and they all agree with my decision rather than expecting me to send them the money instead.

    If I were in real trouble, one of them would come and help in person or they would send me some of their hard earned zlotys to smooth my path out of a financial crisis.

    Monika

  • Comment number 31.

    I should imagine the East Anglia University hackers must be feeling somewhat frustrtated today that the world has made real progress towards reduction of CO2 emissions and that it is probably largely thanks to Barack Obama.

    Although quite a few people are critical of, if not incensed by what they think insufficient levels of the proposed reduction, it seems to me that the agreement may form quite a good basis for further negotions in the months to come.

    mim

  • Comment number 32.

    @ Mim #22 and onwards....
    Obviously you are IGNORANT of the track "Killing in the name of" by Rage Against the Machine which is currently a best seller and hopefully should be number 1 this Christmas. All the proceeds from the sale of the track will go to a homeless charity.

    Read about it here:
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1236591/BBC-backing-Rage-Against-The-Machine-sour-grapes-X-Factor-beating-Strictly-says-Simon-Cowell.html

  • Comment number 33.

    Mim #24

    Shebang.
    I merely refer to the whole package of Copenhagen and money shifting world policies that I think are a sham and almost totally pointless.

    Obama – world leaders – I have a certain amount of compassion for. They don’t have an easy task, probably don’t get much peace or sleep. BUT no,one made them do it. Far too much ego, showbiz and power play going on to achieve anything worthwhile for the world. A little more humility and shared responsibility along with an understanding of the agenda of the man in the street wouldn’t go amiss. Some dumbing down required. Mostly of ego’s.

    I think Copenhagen has been a wasteful exercise and I have not seen anything so far in his presidency to recommend Mr Obama too me too strongly either.

    The whole thing rather too engineered and manipulated for my liking. So perhaps I may be rather more close to Mr Singletons’ way of thinking. I am certainly sceptical, if not yet totally cynical about politics and ‘professional experts’ running our world. What ON EARTH happened to Common Sense and the wonderful word WISDOM that is used on here by many wise posters.

    I have followed Copenhagen on and off and have been frankly appalled at the Games People Played. Then came Barack, Oh we are saved, we are SAVED!!!!! God help us from saviours! Amid much heralding and trumpet fanfares (nothing as classy as Clarke or Purcell – my maiden name as it happens - I am afraid) he sweeps in on his Jet propelled shining white charger , smiling, waving but leaving us all potentially drowning in the wake of empty rhetoric, emptier vague promises and empty hands as he gives, gives and gives and then gives again (tis the season so they say). And will this be a founding for movement in the right direction. Sadly I fear not. It will basically be more give away this time behind closed doors, where we will be sold further down the rivers of power bargaining, on a pointless wrong focuses debate on saving the planet. Obama swithered about coming, in sure and certain knowledge that he would have (NEED) a second coming. He engineered it that way – couldn’t resolve something this big in one short ministry. He has precedent if you believe in Mr Grimm, Mr Christian Anderson of that same fair city and Mr BiGGGGGGGG himself. All are self proclaimed, self important, over hyped global power brokers.

    I think you misunderstand Mistress 76’s general post to NN.

    Gladstone #26
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article4393448.ece
    http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/1225861?UserKey=

    This is 5 miles from me. Sadly the latest venture seems to be struggling though they do provide many of the local Christmas Trees – mine in a bucket in the shed awaiting my boys home later this weekend to put up. Here we had some snow, still lying on hills, fields and street but road clear ish though hills tricky. More snow forecast later today so have delayed collecting youngest son from Edinburgh until tomorrow. Perhaps in the delay he may clean his flat. You never know, they say Christmas is a time for miracles. Ha Ha.

  • Comment number 34.

    #32

    Mistress76uk

    Thanks for your explanation. I am indeed ignorant of most of the pop culture and never watch the X-factor but may have a look at the link in the next few days rather than now as I have quite a few other things on mind at the moment.

    mim

  • Comment number 35.

    #33

    Brightyangthing

    I don't know what it is about Obama that makes me trust him to a large extent. I've been tempted to call it 'magic'. It's the way he is with people and children in particular. He does seem to engage them ane with them for real rather than using them for photo opportunities, for example.

    And he seems able to listen to lowly folk like myself. At least that's what I think. I have never had, and never expected, a direct response to my e-mails, but feel that he has taken things I've had to say into account. Call me self-deluded if you wish but more often my intuition in things like that is quite astute, not that I've never made mistakes about people in the past, far from it, and I'm extremely disappointed about some of them. But now that I've learned my lessons about deliberate nastiness, which I had never met with before coming to this country, I feel that more or less I am on the right track to a brighter future before the inevitable and eventual end that awaits us all sooner or later.

    With regard to books and reading, I've come to accept the fact that I shall never be able to catch up on all the books that in the past I yearned to read. It's a shame but there is not much I can do about it now apart from hoping that one day my life will have changed enough for me to start reading again. At least I am engaged in verbal, or even literary, communication with people like yourself which is a source of considerable pleasure.

    mim

  • Comment number 36.

    4. At 7:44pm on 18 Dec 2009, Roger Thomas
    19th October
    Gordon Brown No Plan B
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/climatechange/6366407/Gordon-Brown-no-plan-B-on-climate-change.html
    18th December
    Gordon Brown Plan B
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/dec/18/gordon-brown-plan-b-copenhagen


    LOL. I await his next helpful line in the sand 'no, now this is it' deadline announcement to help focus minds and blow yet more credibility. This from twitter suggests he is coping well:

    @DowningStreetPM: 2400 - this is hard work and I haven't got all I wanted. But it is a vital first step towards a greener future

    Wonder where his head is at? Possible hint…

    Fight to control Copenhagen climate change fund
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8419048.stm

    Possibly it needs a world-saving financial genius to run?

    So perhaps the fact that nothing is legally binding yet is no bad thing:)

    A some were evidently unsure all being discussed was as settled as top scientists like Pres. Obama and PM brown say it was… er… is.

    Speaking of whom, on the BBC just saw David King say that Gordon was neither right nor wrong to be pleased at the outcome. Uh-huh.

    He does have a different take to most. Wonder why?

    Here was me thinking it was about reducing GHGs.

  • Comment number 37.

    Nos 23 - mim

    Oh I'm glad not to talk to my family. Hope all is OK with your health and accommodation.

    Did a screen shot of the last Newsnight Review :

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/stopped_time2/4197236866/sizes/o/

    There you go Kirsty - that's what you look like to us all.

  • Comment number 38.

    #37

    Streetphotobeing

    Doesn't she look lovely in that shot?

    Accommodation is fine, thank you, and my landlords have had a new high quality pump installed so I don't have to run up and down turning it on and off, and it can be left on all day and night now. This morning I did feel a funny noise coming off the tap on the left again but only once and hope it will not come back. If it does then I may have to speak to my Social Worker and my landlords about it again.

    Health to be checked and dealt with next week. There is something weird happening in my belly with constant audible though quite faint noises and what seems like bubble movement within my bowels. On top of those I do get sudden pains but they are quite easily resolved with medication that my GP has kindly prescribed for me. It's all at its worst when I'm at home and that's partly the reason why I like to be out as much as possible. Or, if I do have to stay at home, I need to be very active either physicall or mentally, like blogging for example.

    Have a good weekend

    mim

    P.S. Glad to hear it's not all that bad within your family.

  • Comment number 39.

    Brightyangthing

    Just one more thing about the Obama Factor:

    Since he came to power I've met with so much kindness and warmth from so many black people, including young ones, that I sometimes need to pinch myself to believe it. And it all has a very light touch to it with a good dose of humour!

    mim

  • Comment number 40.

    The Rage against the Machine

    the machine in this case is the carbon trading climate claptrap.

    people don't want x factor music nor 'X factor' media driven rich kid climate groupthink.

    only 'a quibble' over who controls 100 billion a year and where it comes from and who it goes to?

    at some point they will be shaving the heads of 'deniers'?

    guests find it hard to understand kirsty? its part of the fun.

  • Comment number 41.

    Mim you heard of the Lodz Art Center ? they send me emails of what ever they have on - shows and what not but its usually in Polish so haven't a clue. But I like what it looks like, rather reminds me of Birmingham but have to say that's changing at a pace seeing the new, much needed coach station, now all they need to do is address the stinky chemical loo's in the coaches. Health and safety should look into that in my view.

    [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

    Climate change - what if the earth is cooling down for some other reason/s and Co2 output will help balance it out - just a silly thought on a very cold day with quite a lot more cold days to come.

  • Comment number 42.

    Nos 41

    [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator] - Lodz Art Center website with 360 architectural photo documentary imaging of it. Bit much to remove that mods don't you think ?

  • Comment number 43.

    STILL IN THE DARK

    So we seem to have 'the wrong kind of tunnel'! I suspect Brunel would have allowed for atmospheric temperature differential. I suppose all the circuit boards got sweaty?

    So Karzai has heeded the pressure from his invaders, and dismissed corrupt ministers? If he is also guided by the New Labour ethos, those who have departed under cloud will soon be back in post.
    It would be so much better if we could find an honourable country to do the invading - but then, they wouldn't want to would they!

  • Comment number 44.

    41

    Streetphotobeing

    All the evidence points out to Earth warming up......

    mim

  • Comment number 45.

    I might get that Kirsty image enlarged.. billboard poster size and paste it onto the inside of my garage wall. Kirsty could have a bin bag hanging off her shoulders and still look good. Although last night whilst watching NN, I did have a very strong urge to brush her new hairdo. Wifey was not impressed when I said I would like to see a peroxide blonde or redhead Kirsty. She said" since when have you been into older women?"..I replied" well.. er..I married you!"...Yeah, don't ever use that one...it could get you killed!

    It was nice to see someone from the skeptic/truth camp in the guise of a congress/senateman. Especially when you have that demonic nelly Prescott pushing the MMGW nonsense. At long last, a bit of balance. Newsnight, I think, have learnt a lesson from that 'Justins Kitchen incident'.

    Who needs X factor when you have class acts such as the following.

    A song

    [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

    A poem

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFsKRKEW-Og&feature=fvw

    thecookieducker AKA me. Someone once fired a packet of buscuits at me. I ducked but totally lost my stride. Best laugh of the night, so I'm told. Merryxmas people xx

  • Comment number 46.

    iraq inquiry

    Witnesses: Sir Nigel Sheinwald, Sir John Sawers and Desmond Bowen

    this, for me, as we get closer to No10 has to be the most creepy if not sinister session so far. John Sawers in particular seemed more interested in defensive spinning a point than giving evidence. He even questioned if one of the questions was within the terms of the inquiry. He seemed to be seeding the inquiry record with certain narratives?

    the understatement of the inquiry so far has to be when it was said in this session that Abu Gharaib was described as being told there was 'a difficulty' over prisoner conditions. Ex prisoners might use a stronger word than 'difficult' to describe the conditions they endured?

    if one listened to them without hearing the other evidence anyone would think iraq was not only justified but a success in a kind of itsnotmegov kind of way.

    We learn that the uk should not be apologetic for its role in basra.

    to the question 'what has iraq done to british reputation' SHEINWALD admitted it depended who you talked too and if their answer was public or private. Even now there was no straight answer to the question 'was Iraq the right thing to do'. Sawers, however, came out with the usual rot. Just to give a flavour of his testimony its worth giving a bit of what he said to that question [from transcript page 106]

    SIR JOHN SAWERS: Can I just add: The question which
    Sir Roderic asks is one which all of us have asked
    ourselves many times during the years since this began
    and there is not a clear-cut answer. One issue that is
    clear-cut is that Iraq is a better place than it would
    otherwise have been and that the people of Iraq, in my
    experience, the political leaders of Iraq, are
    enormously grateful to this day for the effort that Britain and America, and in particular our servicemen,
    played to liberate them from Saddam Hussein.....

    which is the sort of answer we have heard Tony Blair use.

    except for Sawers the Sir Humphreys came across as 'babes in the woods' who were shocked by violence.

  • Comment number 47.

    40
    jaunty
    I don't always understand your lingo but are you making a claim here that the 'funny game' is only to do with the money and not love or desire as the case may be?

    To put on record, for me love that's totally interwined with desire comes first and foremost. I'd rather live on a modest income and be loved and desired rather than swim in gold and be a miserable cow.

    It may just happen that i'll have both, but rather than swimming in gold
    i'd prefer to spend it on or invest it good, interesting and healthy causes.

    mim

  • Comment number 48.

    And to add to the above, mutual respect is an absolute precondition in me engaging in the miracle of real love.

    mim

  • Comment number 49.


    Found this rather interesting, not that I'm in anyway qualified to argue for or against it:

    http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=25526754-e53a-4899-84af-5d9089a5dcb6

    I'm certainly aware that many scientists are not independent and therefore dependent on funding which could, no doubt be used to manipulate towards a funders position.

    How are the scientists at the Climatic Research Unit, University of East Anglia funded ? I'm not saying something is not happening, I just don't think we are getting a clear picture. Humans are supreme at delusions and affinity fraud type behaviour leads them to all kinds of stupidity.

    mim
    'Doesn't she look lovely in that shot?'

    Yes

  • Comment number 50.

    #49 Stretphotobeing

    Most climate research in the UK is funded by NERC (Natural Environmental Research Council). Which receives it's funding from DEFRA.

    The Hadley Centre models are part of the Met Office, which also receives it's funds from the UK Government.

    The main overview climatic models the UK presently uses were set up in 2002 I was one of the scientists invited to the initial conference.

    Though are pre conference scientific brief we were give were the models were to be a 'blue sky' approach, ie we would discuss how the models were set up and what we would look for.

    In the opening addresses of the conference it was made clear to find the correlation between CO2 and climate change. The DEFRA speaker funder wanted the models to be compatible with the Hadley Centre methodology, not the open scientific approach we were originally given.

    I did address the conference an make my feelings known that I disagreed with the funders deciding the scientific methodology.

    How do I know all this about the UK climate models? Unlike the journalists and the guests on NN. I was there.

  • Comment number 51.

    Well done Paul Mason for flushing out the 1 trillion Corporate Nazi stock market parasite investment scam the Copenhagen summit was alleged to facilitate. It would appear to be all part of a plan to fill the ever increasing black hole in world financial markets through massive inflation in the cost of living.

    At least in the UK, relatively poor people ( pensioners and the disabled, often reliant on income from small savings ) simply can't afford an increase in the cost of living. Any further inflation in energy prices will kill an ever increasing proportion of the population in winter. The figures are bad enough as it is, add in all the more elderly unemployed due to their job being worth more dead than alive on the strength of Carbon Credits and it starts to look like some kind of annual green holocaust.

    Brown's commitment to a legally binding treaty on CO2 cuts indicates some extreme level of insanity on his part, could probably loose the election but the evidence suggests that Cameron is little if any less insane when it comes to Climate Change policy. Perhaps the only hope is that the latest reports from Russia on their climate data being " cherry picked " or systematically excluded from the global average will undermine the underlying quasi-religion of climate science.

  • Comment number 52.

  • Comment number 53.

    Nos 50

    Think that's an important post Rodger and NN should take note.

  • Comment number 54.

    #49
    Streetphotobeing

    'Humans are supreme at delusions and affinity fraud type behaviour leads them to all kinds of stupidity.' -

    Doesn't it just?

    mim

    P.S. Thanks for the link but I'm not in the mood to analyse its content. What infuriates me more than anything is link creation between science and private life of a a few individuals, between political life and sex and between climate change affecting the Earth and a woman's menopause, etc

    It's total madness taken to an nth degree doomed to total failure right from the start.

    Personally I'm quite happy with some of the progress having been made in Copenhagen, etc, but I'm afraid I shall not spell out what it is exactly that I'm happy about. Some of the messages are contradictory but that's of not much relevance as far as I'm concerned.

    To point out to the confusion regarding some of the points I've made above here's a useful link:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8422367.stm

    I'm not sure, however, why salami needed to be brought in as part of the discussion.

    mim

  • Comment number 55.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 56.

    Nos 54 - Mim

    'Humans are supreme at delusions and affinity fraud type behaviour leads them to all kinds of stupidity.'

    Can assure you I'm not referring to you at all in that quote and am merely agreeing with you on the screen shot. No strange inferences going on. In fact I like Obama a lot as you do.

  • Comment number 57.

    Mim - Father cant go bowling - got the flu and Ive managed to burn my thumb as a result of being up all night trying to cope with him. Dipping thumb in water all day otherwise it sure would trump having a migraine for pain.

    ----------------------------------------

    Strange these trains breaking down. It was very cold in Feb no train problems that I recall, is it much more colder?

  • Comment number 58.

    MISTRUST IS THE BASIS FOR ALL GOOD SCIENCE (#49 link)

    The tight range of values for CO2 in ice cores, over thousands of years, should flag-up a possible 'base line for retention'. This is far more likely than the inference drawn.

    Thanks SPB.

  • Comment number 59.

    #56

    Streetphotobeing

    You may not be referring to myself in that quote but it doesn't mean that it does not apply to the situation I've found myself in. And it's been going on for years and years.

    Still, I'm lucky to have found a few friends who know the difference between fraud and money making, and a friend who knows the difference between grilling sausages and real foreplay, and so on.

    mim

  • Comment number 60.

    #32

    Mistress76uk

    I've just watched both Joe McElderry and the Range Against the Machine singing their respective songs, as well as the article you've linked. To be honest I'm not one bit interested in who is going to make it to no 1 as the actual artistic expression of whatever is being expressed in whatever medium is much more important to me than winning itself. That I would not even contemplate, for example, competing with other skaters of my age, something one of my instructors was terribly keen on.

    If I'd had an opportunity to do so when I was much younger then I would have probably competed but now what matters to me is whether people find what I do on ice exciting, interesting or moving, or whatever.

    mim

  • Comment number 61.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 62.

    Lol

    I’ve just finished watching ‘The Taming of the Shrew’
    Directed by Jonathan Miller and a BBC crew.
    Brilliant in every aspect it appeared to me
    With an outstanding performance of Petruchio by the famous John Cleese.
    In fact they were all brilliant, not least Sarah Badel
    Who played the shrew excellently well.

    In terms of equality things have irrevocably changed
    And no longer can women conform so to men.
    But sharing and caring and mutual respect
    Of each other’s free will and free intellect.

    mim

  • Comment number 63.

    @Mim #60 - the reason for backing Rage Against The Machine (apart from the fact they were one of my favourite bands when I was a teenager) is because all proceeds from their single will go to homeless charity Shelter :o)

  • Comment number 64.

    Nos 62

    I should make an effort to watch that as well.
    Where is it - iplayer ?

    Mim the link at nos 49 is about Polish physicist Zbigniew Jaworowski :

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zbigniew_Jaworowski

    I put my digital thermometer outside last night on a stool and recorded minus 7. Not scientific of course but I think I'm going to continue to do it.

  • Comment number 65.

    #63

    Mistress76uk

    That's really good of them and I mean it. It's just the way it is all done, undermining the young man, for example, and then Simon Cowell and Paul McCartney on the game vying for position, the whole razmatazz and hysteria associated with the shows of this kind makes me turn my back on them.

    It equally applies to Strictly Come Dancing as well. Can't speak about the Big Brother as have never watched even 1 minute of the show.

    I may have been accused of siding with celebrities in the past there are celebrities and celebrities, or if you wish celebrities and luminaries, and if not that then celebrities vs simply famous people recognised for the work they've done or are doing, whether it be in journalism, writing, singing, arts, politics or dancing, or whatever else.

    mim

  • Comment number 66.

    #64 continuation

    You see, Mistress76uk, what I think has been happening is that some people, including so-called friends, have been trying to make lots of money out of my work and life while at the same time constantly undermining me to 'keep me in my place' or even laughing straight into my face.

    By the way, have you read Michael Crick's piece about William Gladstone? What a fascinating man he was. Four times Prime Minister, he introduced so much good, for the times, legislation it's almost hard to believe. What I like about him most is his defence of the individual as opposed to the state trying to run people's lives for them.

    mim

  • Comment number 67.

    One more thing, Mistress76uk, I can't say that I'm against all this show business, etc. If others like it who am I to tell then it's no good. It just doesn't touch me or move me and therefore I try and stay away from it. Quite often the performers and their performances are very good if not brilliant but the attached 'hysteria' as I call it makes me cringe and simply gets on my nerves.

  • Comment number 68.

    I'm not trying to say, m76uk, that I'm against all those pop shows. If others like them, who am I to tell them they're no good. But you will not see me watching them as the way they are presented makes me cringe and gets on my nerves which is a shame as some of the performers and their performances are really good if not, in fact, brilliant.

    mim

  • Comment number 69.

    #64

    Streetphtobeing

    Thank you for the link but I've had enough of CO2 and science, and am now into Shakespeare as you can see from the above ditties.

    mim

  • Comment number 70.

    Mistress76uk

    Having thought I'd lost #67 I posted #68. Apologies for repeating myself.

  • Comment number 71.

  • Comment number 72.

    #71 Roger

    IF ONLY THEY'D LISTENED TO EARTH SAVERS

    Well Well well.

    Whoever would have thought there might possibly be questions over those desperate for a carbon trading deal, being found with their hands 'allegedly' in the till.

    I wonder how many millions or even billions of dollars spent by governments, the media, scientists and erm, Businessmen et al on their most recent festive foray in Denmark, could have been saved for far better projects. They should have bothered to listen to the 'flat earth society' (NN Bloggers) rather than the 'fat cat' society.

  • Comment number 73.

    71 see climate blog :)

    Iraq inquiry

    one of the witnesses refers to the Hard Lessons report done by the usa. there is a list of the lessons at the end.

    http://www.sigir.mil/hardlessons/default.aspx

  • Comment number 74.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 75.

    Just got in from a walk. This is ice forming on the edges of the River Ericht. We are about quarter of a mile from where the road starts rising up into the Highlands, the river cutting back into them in a steep sided gorge there.

    http://celticlion.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/100_0086.jpg

    The river is reasonable fast flowing so for it to start freezing in December means it must be cold from it's source. BYT lives at the other side of the mountains between us on the north side.

    Picture taken hand held but very steady due to length of exposure. Used night time scenery setting with flash. The sky was much darker than in the picture. Lights of the town in the distance.

  • Comment number 76.

  • Comment number 77.

    :o) It's official! Rage Against The Machine are NUMBER 1!

  • Comment number 78.

    71,76 et all

    With all these revelations of vast riches being made by the few (inevitably at the expense of the many) I return to my basic conclusion: that globalisation robs the man-in-the-street of any influence he may have over his destiny and that of his children.

    Apart from that mocking symbol of democracy, the ballot box, and our unheeded blogs of despair, we are powerless against international decisions and actions that should be taken in our interests, but are increasingly seen to be engineered for the enrichment of a few.

    To me Small is Beautiful, hence my posts favouring the transfer of much more power and responsibility to local authorities from central government which may claim to listen, but then ignores our wishes, often on the basis of EU laws by the unelected, and now on international conventions, on which we are denied referenda. In my lifetime we have become increasingly disenfranchised.

    I would like to see locally elected members accountable to their local community for more issues that affect our lives. With more local and less central taxation local authorities would be better able to meet the democratic needs of their communities (eg. should local skill shortages be made good by more training programmes, less benefits dependency or immigration; should more or less funds be spent on recycling, council housing, alternative energy generation and saving? If this leads to a form of balkanisation, so be it; at least we would have the option to move to areas that meet our own lifestyle needs, and have more direct power of representation and effective protest at local level. Under increasing globalisation, we have no power to change or to prevent unwanted changes.

  • Comment number 79.

    #75
    Great picture Roger. I've not managed along the glen - or up my own garden - since Wednesday - ok down middle of road but if anything comes (and they've been logging in the forest!) the sides are lethal. I do not need broken bones or muscle strains before christmas with the hungry hordes home.

    I recall similar scenes last December when we escaped to our west coast hideaway (kindly loaned by friend) on Loch etive. Edges of the loch all the way to Oban were frozen as were river Awe and others.

    Pretty pretty pretty but quite treacherous.


    So, are we warming, cooling or just varying seasonally?

  • Comment number 80.

    # 78 II

    Some good points.

    Did you hear Ben Shott (Miscellany?? ) on R2 this morning summing up 2009 and looking ahead. On the subject of the dismay at MP’s expenses rows and other failings of leadership, he suggested that with a general election looming, his advice would be to forget parties (political) and the past and vote for the individual you want to represent you. He predicts the start of great changes.

    There are flaws in some areas of your manifesto, this being one potential one......

    '....at least we would have the option to move to areas that meet our own lifestyle needs'

    If you are a teacher, accountant or librarian that's probably true, but if you are an offshore engineer, fisherman or other specialised profession - not quite so simple. But the model is worth working on - possibly it doesn't even go far enough. Prepare for some discomfort!

  • Comment number 81.

  • Comment number 82.

    THE PARTY POLITICAL CANCER (#78)

    'YOU AND YOUR MP': "At times a constituent's demands may conflict with party policy and your MP will have to decide where their FIRST LOYALTY should lie." (Isn't loyalty absolute?)

    There, in an official document, is the permission for PARTY GAMES. The party miasma it has long since contaminated Local Government, and much has been written about councils splitting on party lines over diverse matters. (Considering local government is a gateway drug to Westminster, and an aspirant's record is sure to be scrutinised, this is hardly surprising.)

    So I am a bit puzzled, IDG, when you write: "To me Small is Beautiful, hence my posts favouring the transfer of much more power and responsibility to local authorities from central government . . ."

    Before that transfer can be effective, we must locally (as well as nationally)

    SPOIL PARTY GAMES.

  • Comment number 83.

    Lol, I've had a card from a friend depicting a snowman
    With a heart on his trousers and a sock in his hand.
    The message suggests to be kind to all
    As everyone’s engaged on some journey of their own
    And that we should be grateful to walk it with them.
    To which I replied that I ain’t a saint
    And am leaving the task to church and their men.
    Why be kind to those who are deliberately unkind?
    That would be a sign of losing one’s mind.
    I do hope, however, you have a good time
    With your friends and family wherever you are.

    mim

  • Comment number 84.

    HER MAJESTY'S CHRISTMAS JOURNEY TO SANDRINGHAM

    Earlier today I’ve learned that The Queen
    Travelled by train with ordinary folk.
    Rather than journeying on the Royal Train
    Which costs pots of money to pull out of stock.

    On Her way to rejoin Her Husband and Co
    A child gave her some flowers while a bit later on
    Arrival she shared the train’s platform with other travellers
    And here’s the link for curious wonderers:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1236632/Your-commuter-carriage-awaits-The-Queen-catches-train-journey-Sandringham-Christmas.html

    mim

  • Comment number 85.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 86.

    Should any of the bloggers be free tonight, please may I recommend the following:

    Victoria Wood is following the University Challenge
    I like her humour and if I’m around
    I shall most certainly watch all the range
    Of all her guests in tonight’s programme.

    As well as the sketches she has prepared
    Including one filmed on the ice rink where I do twirling.
    When I passed by her I stopped and gazed
    To which she replied with saying ‘Yes’.

    One of the tunes I skated to then
    Was Yasmin’s ‘Happiness’ for her in return.
    Followed by a hello from both Christopher and Jayne.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00pl74d
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007bs2x

    mim

  • Comment number 87.

    #86 addendum

    I forgot to add the following question:

    Doesn't she, i.e. Victoria Wood, look lovely on those photos?

  • Comment number 88.

    Have a good day Mim. Was going to say watch the ice but then your an ice balance expert. I almost came a cropper scrapping my windscreen this morning.

  • Comment number 89.

    #88

    Thank you, Streetphotobeing, safe driving.

    mim

  • Comment number 90.

    In The Iraq Inquiry the world bank came in for criticism. the bank had 1/2 billion for iraq but by 2005 only distributed 47 million.

    [the world bank is being called 'the climate bank' by some.]

    Thursday, 17 December 2009 afternoon session about 33 mins into the vid.

    the uk govt had unrealistic expectations. the uk 2003 plan had the iraqi administration up, local forces running the place, democracy flourishing and the brits home for tea and medals by 2005.

    from the evidence so far and given the massive loss of life there seems to have been a shocking negligence in the duty of care to the Iraqi and British people by British Government that had neither the intellectual architecture nor monetary resources to take on this project?

    the sombre thought being the exact same situation is now present in afghanistan for which the uk also has no resources to see through.

  • Comment number 91.

    Nice One Roger #71

    Are you aware of Nick Griffins allegation that an eco-fascist leaning Lib-Demmic north west MEP has shares in a wind farm company. Perhaps the same principle applies to most of the potentially bent politicians of all parties who push all the current eco-related investment scams.

    The trouble is that I believe politicians need not declare any shareholding less than 5% of the total company assets, and in theory they could be sat on tens of thousands worth of shares and nobody would know any different. Perhaps this rule needs changing as an integral part of any future legislation to clean up politics, any shareholding however small to be declared in full in future ?

  • Comment number 92.

    I've just read an article written by Tom Brookes and Tim Nuthall entitled: 'What did the Copenhagen climate summit achieve?' which strikes me as a very well balanced exposition of the issues at stake and the possible ways forward.

    It doesn't look like the hackers of the East Anglia University would enjoy reading it or be prepared to accept that cooperation and crucial agreements on a virtually global level out of a seemingly unsolvable chaos have been agreed upon.

    Here's the link:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8424522.stm
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8424522.stm

  • Comment number 93.

    And if I may be allowed to post something slightly off topic:

    As promised:

    Lol, it was good to get out and get some fresh air
    Today to Elvis and Leo I only twirled
    With one of Elvis’ being the ‘Blue Moon’
    While Cohen’s I started with ‘I am your Man’
    Followed by waltzing in an attic in Vienna
    After which I pushed off as there were too many
    Kids and teenagers all over the place
    Enjoying themselves but right in my way
    Who while I was twirling continued to fall
    Right under my feet, that’s why I left, Lol.
    For lunch I bought an M&S roll.

    mim

  • Comment number 94.

    re78 Small is Beautiful (versus 71,76,)

    80byt "There are flaws in some areas of your manifesto.... if you are an offshore engineer, fisherman or other specialised profession - not quite so simple. But the model is worth working on - possibly it doesn't even go far enough. Prepare for some discomfort!"; and

    82 barrie
    "The party miasma it has long since contaminated Local Government, and much has been written about councils splitting on party lines over diverse matters. (Considering local government is a gateway drug to Westminster, and an aspirant's record is sure to be scrutinised, this is hardly surprising.)"

    Political party manifestos are either counsels of perfection or models of mendacity, subject to modification or even u-turn. But the direction in which we are heading (world government) must justify a radical change.

    brossen91 indicates an example of 'power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely' so larger power bases (MEP) are not the way to go. My experience in local, central and overseas governments suggests that 'people power' is the way forward, if it can be harnessed.

    I experienced this when introducing the first workstudy/incentive bonus scheme in a London Borough refuse collection reorganisation. My stopwatch and sliderule calculations were slightly out, so dozens of citizens showed their anger by tipping their garbage bins on the townhall steps. You can't give that level of feedback to central or EU government; local councillors are more vulnerable.

    To end on a more topical note, people power managed the defeat of Simon Cowell's power domination by orchestrated voting on facebook, or was it Utube? I'm not into these things, but perhaps someone should similarly organise us bloggers to give our opinions more world cover, be they Spoil Party Games, or Small is Beautiful?

  • Comment number 95.

    GOOD MAN IDG2 - I AM SURE WE CONVIRGE IN ESSENCE (#94)

    Ultimately it comes down to the capacity of the individual to function in terms of the intangible.

    But the human asset-strippers have stripped us down to performing monkeys.

    I have a friend who is skilled in the most beautiful craft (Parchmentcraft) and women are flocking to her to learn, departing each lesson in ecstasy. When I see the endless hours these enthusiasts put into JUST MAKING SOMETHING BREATHTAKING I have hope.

    That's the nearest I can get to a positive message for the Solstice.

  • Comment number 96.

    Nos 93 - Mim
    Just returned from my evening walk, it looks and feels more like Christmas out there than it has for many a year - snow on the ground, air still, homes with tasteful white lights outside on their tree's, only a few that flash annoyingly. A group of female teenagers off out stopped to have a snowball fight kindly ceased fire as I walked by. The local Balti aroma's seemed more intense in the still cold air. My thermometer says minus 3, a still, calming walk without hurry and now I want to make myself a curry.

  • Comment number 97.

    Oh, Streetphotobeing, my thermometer currently reads 21.

    Have just watched Victoria Wood's programmes. Isn't she absolutely amazing, extraordinary, funny and fantastic? And to think how many a person she has supplied all those lines for allowing them not only to enjoy themselves but also simply to earn their bread & butter.

    I didn't have a clue about her musical talent and the piano playing, and hope she writes as many wonderful, or crazy songs as the case may be, as she can possibly manage.

    Brilliant!

    mim

  • Comment number 98.

    #94 Barrie
    "That's the nearest I can get to a positive message for the Solstice"

    Well that's about it. From today we have a rebirth of the sun. Here we notice it more. Having lived in England the seasons here are a roller coaster.

    May we hope that from today the future is better than the past.

  • Comment number 99.

    99

    Ninety nine is part of the swine
    Who think they are it - endowed with the divine.
    But as they say, once swine always swine,
    That’s what is true of Newsnight’s nine nine.

  • Comment number 100.

    From now on it’s only the Real that matters:
    To ignore I am planning all clap trap noise clutters.
    I have resources all of my own
    Don’t need no help from nutters unknown
    Who’ll never make it on the world stage
    They may well have to live in a cage
    In which they have trapped themselves in
    Pretending it’s them who hold the sex key.
    Using shamelessly others’ emotions
    Hoping in future to gain promotion
    I’d call it thieving, Lol. With full devotion:

    mim

    It may well be a difficult day but what the hell.
    I think we do have all what it takes
    To stay the course me and my skates.
    Later today I shall be twirling as well as gliding
    Thinking of you, Lol, your Friends and Family.

    mim

 

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