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Monday 30 November 2009

Len Freeman | 15:42 UK time, Monday, 30 November 2009

Here is what is coming up on the programme:

Today is St Andrew's Day and Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond unveiled his vision for an independent Scotland, publishing a white paper on Scotland's constitutional future.

"The debate in Scottish politics is no longer between change or no change - it's about the kind of change we seek and the right of the people to choose their future in a free and fair referendum," Mr Salmond said at its launch in Edinburgh.

Our Political Editor Michael Crick is also in Edinburgh and will be reporting on what the future governance of Scotland might look like.

We will also be looking at Iran's announcement that it plans to build 10 new uranium enrichment sites in defiance of international demands.

The head of Iran's nuclear programme, Ali Akbar Salehi, has accused the West of provoking Tehran into launching the plan. But the French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner has accused Iran of "playing an extremely dangerous game".

Tonight, the BBC's Tehran correspondent Jon Leyne will be assessing the thinking behind Iran's statement and whether it could trigger a shift from diplomacy to direct military confrontation.

Plus, Susan Watts reports on how insurance companies are starting to invest billions in mitigating climate change by investing in green technologies.

Join Jeremy Paxman for all that at 10.30pm.

Comments

  • Comment number 1.

    “Today is St Andrew's Day and Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond unveiled his vision for an independent Scotland, publishing a white paper on Scotland's constitutional future. ‘The debate in Scottish politics is no longer between change or no change - it's about the kind of change we seek and the right of the people to choose their future in a free and fair referendum’" Mr Salmond

    Fresh from Lions Rampant and the renewed patriotism of the previous blog, I live in hope that we might get a similar rallying cry on St George’s Day (which probably isn’t in our first minister’s calendar) to invite us ‘to choose our future in a free and fair referendum.’

    It’s a wee bit disappointing that independence for Scotland is an unlikely choice. Not that I want to be rid of the Scots (whose name I bear, and with Gaelic mother) but we might then be able to drop the non-descriptive label ‘British’ and begin again to refer to 'the English'. Might even get our own parliament, like the devolved.

  • Comment number 2.

    I cannot wait to see Jeremy with Alex Salmond on Newsnight tonight! They make compelling viewing whenever they are both on together - and on St. Andrew's Day as well :o) Bet it's going to be a corker.

  • Comment number 3.

    meanwhile in afghanistan the afghan army complain about their conditions and NATO.

    the taliban pay three times more than the afghan army.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql1g8KJgwmU&feature=sub

  • Comment number 4.

    May as well put this here from Fridays blog as when I wrote it I didn't know there going to be an interview with the Salmond.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/fromthewebteam/2009/11/newsnight_and_newsnight_review.html

    The Lion Rampant

    Was an excellent article in an economics magazine. The SNP in Scotland were told in January 2006 the UK economy would collapse. Though they could have prevented the collapse, they didn't. Couldn't tell the electorate about a crash with an election looming?

    Anyway an economics magazine wanted an assessment on the Scottish Government's economic strategy. A cryptic warning was placed in the final paragraph. It was published on 18th January 2008, global markets crashed on 21st January and the article was part of a discussion on Newsnight on 23rd Jan 2008.

    http://celticlion.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/the-lion-rampant.jpg

    What you are told in the media about the recession being unforeseen isn't quite the full truth.

  • Comment number 5.

  • Comment number 6.

    Dear newsnight, can we please have some credible analysis on the very significant and substantiated scientific position that climate change is a fundamental characteristic of the planet which the creatures of this planet have always had to adapt to deal with.

    The proof of this is irrefutable within the geological record.

    This body of opinion is not against the recommendations that we cut the use of fossil fuels but utterly refutes the science behind that decision.

    The real position should be that we should cut our dependence on fossil fuels because right through history anything that has a high demand and a limited availability has resulted in us resorting to murdering each other en masse or similar such unpleasantries to get control of it sooner or later.

    That is amuch more compelling and substantiated reason for us to cut back than the pseudo science called climate change.

    an you please please please run a proper investigation and publisise the above position before i losse all my faith in journalism (newsnight being the last place i can even bear to look at).

    Let me give you a clue.

    use the work entitled

    ''Knock, Knock: Where is the Evidence for
    Dangerous Human-Caused Global Warming?
    Robert M. Carter1
    Adjunct Research Professor
    James Cook University,

    As a basis to refute the new climate change pseudo religion on one hand.


    And on the other hand use any godam reputable published history of the human race what so ever to confirm the fact that if it is valuable and becoming increasingly in demand humans murder each other to get influence over it.

    What was iraq about agian someone remind me?

    What more reason do we need to cut back on our use of fossil fuels other than our own base savagery and the misery it causes?

    When will humans be honest with themselves about what we are and act accordingly to manage it?

    Our arrogance is breathtaking, we even consider ourselves 'above' nature itself. We are part of nature!!

    Every new scientific proceedure, every new drug (or old herbal drug) is part of nature because we are pasrt of nature.

    I an sick and tired of all the Bull s**** which is absolutely everywhere yet nobody really fights for the truth, not even newsnight,not really you are better than most but still complacent.

    where is the fire in your belly as journalists and human beings to cut through the crap and go for the truth.

    Rant over.








  • Comment number 7.

    Keep up the good work Mr Salmond!

    The only way that the English will get their own country back is for Scotland to get 'full independence'.

    However, since Scotland's main exports appear to be whisky, conspiricist politicians and Rangers fans - you're going to miss those massive subsidies from the English taxpayer although the EU is bound to throw a lot of money at Scotland if full indepndence is achieved.

    Would Scotland join the Euro currency if independent? Would Scotland insist on an opt out on immigration under EU law as secured by Ireland?

    You've got a cosy plot going their Mr Salmond and for those that are English south of the border we're now increasingly realise you're our only hope for real English freedom and we need you to succeed.

    All is forgiven Mr Salmond - Well, almost - Celtic Conspiracy - What? Where? How?

    How about a joint venture project between our two nations as symbol of freindship and co-operation - the rebuilding of Hadrian's wall?

  • Comment number 8.

    I can't help speculating that the five " Royal Navy " personnel and their " yacht " stayed into Iranian waters and got deliberately arrested in order to cover any significant " home news " which may emerge in the next couple of days. In particular the news that the CRU parasites have " thrown away " all the original climate data going back over 150 years. Perhaps things like the drought in the southern Lake District, in one of my railway books I have a photo of a LNWR, pre first war at least train crossing a bridge over the Lune. The river is reduced to a small brook whilst a cow which appears to be suffering from some degree of starvation looks on.

    If they haven't got the original observed data their whole climate model is suspect, why dispose of the evidence unless you intend to defraud ?

    Perhaps Susan Watts report will confirm what I have been saying all along, that the entirely man made global warming theory is little more than an elaborate stock market parasite investment scam.

  • Comment number 9.

    According to Susan Watts: Stephen Catlin is "...upfront about his motives..."

    But not upfront about the colossal failure of the mission. Rather skirted over that, didn't we, Susan?

  • Comment number 10.

    Jericoa, unfortunately there are few who seek the truth, a good example is tonight, does anyone mention that the US intelligence agencies concluded in 2007 that Iran was not building a nuclear weapon, here is a link on the BBC-

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7125701.stm

    This position has not changed, the only people talking about Iran and nuclear weapons are politicians, I have posted repeatedly quoting this yet every single time Iran and nuclear weapons are brought up on Newsnight no one ever mentions this, Joseph Goebbels would be proud. Of course they don't even mention that uranium for a bomb is enriched to greater than 85% and that the reactor enriched uranium is less than 20% which is what the IAEA has been finding, you might as well say I'm building a nuclear weapon because I have some granite in the rockery.

  • Comment number 11.

    Jeremy on top form, and yet again, a classic Jeremy v Alex Salmond interview :o) from pointing out that the majority do not want independence - 5000 people out of 5 million :p (and it would cost £9million to have a poll on it) to how much money was put into Scottish based banks (RBS etc). Oh and 167 pages on independence.....must have been interesting bedtime reading. Ha ha ha ha. It was the best laugh of the day!

    Also excellent debates by Jeremy with Volker & Joyce on why British troops are not getting the recognition they deserve and why they should be committed to Afghanistan, plus excellent and informative debate with Etemad & Clawson on the threat/problem of Iran.

  • Comment number 12.

    WHO IS OUR FEED-IN TARRIFF MAN ON HERE - I HAVE FORGOTTON

    My BBC science email says: price of 'solar' is coming down fast. It makes reference to the energy itself (sunlight) BEING FREE! What world it the writer living in? Didn't some water company already charge a guy for the rainwater off his roof, that he used? SOLAR PANELS CANNOT BE HIDDEN. There will be an EU tax before the damned things are even paid for.

    There is no such thing as a free photon.

  • Comment number 13.

    HE'S NOT THE MESSIAH 76uk HE'S A VERY NAUGHTY BOY (#11)

    Considering his position, and the tools available, Salmond made a defence on a par with 'The 300'. Paxman was a long way from any sort of triumph.

    Your 'code' was long since broken by readers of this blog. Just come out with the secretory, irrational truth of your admiration, and be done. Paxo has considerable faults, and a level of overpaid complacency that often borders on banal. But he is tall, has a full head of hair and a deep voice; everything a woman needs.

  • Comment number 14.

    #13

  • Comment number 15.

    #13 But he is tall, has a full head of hair and a deep voice; everything a woman needs. Not quite Barrie! ; )

    #14 Mademoiselle google Barries full name, you'll find his excellent site. He's definitely not incognito.

    And yes I find Paxo banal these days, where's his fighting spirit gone? Oh and Barrie I blame power point on all the fancy screen presentation. I've watched it being put together for teenagers in school.

  • Comment number 16.

    HHmmm I suppose this has nothing to do with immigration, legal or otherwise... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8387560.stm

    With all those millions that have to be spent, just where do the government see the financal benefit of all those extra people?

  • Comment number 17.

    @#13 - Oh Barrie :p Jeremy's not just a pretty face!
    He's won awards across the board - from The Royal Television Society for Presenter of the Year on multiple occasions, to Voice of the Listener & Viewer: Award for best contribution to Television on multiple occasions, to a BAFTA, to the Variety Club Person of the Year, to being a best selling author and most recently, his latest book "The Victorians" has been named as one of the Art History Books of the Year by the Daily Telegraph.

  • Comment number 18.

    #15 Powerpoint

    This is a limitation to knowledge.

    At conferences, presentations etc it is noticeable that the what the speaker says is predetermined and linked to the Powerpoint presentation.

    Hence there can be no deviation from what the speaker is saying. This reduces interchange with the audience. Questions regarding what the speaker is saying cannot be asked during the presentation.

    Questions are only permitted at the end and then for only a short period so no full discussion of the content occurs.

    A traditional black/white board presentation can be interjected, questioned etc. The organic nature of the presentation media allowing deviation or clarification within the presentation.

    When I have spoken on the environment etc I have not used Powerpoint etc and have always asked my audience at any point to ask questions etc, because if one person needs further exploration of a point during a presentation it is almost certain others might. For better to establish effective communication within a presentation rather than lose a portion of your audience, who have to sit through something unsure with only a minimal amount of time at the end to raise concerns etc.

    Even the most high level scientific/ Government conferences are rigid Powerpoint presentations. Very frustrating when the speaker near the start says something which many would disagree or question as the basis for the entire presentation.

    Not a fan of Powerpoint in the way it is mainly used.

  • Comment number 19.

    #18 This is a limitation to knowledge.

    How I agree with you Roger! I can't understand how it can be of any use, unless it's just used for bald facts. I'm lucky I've never been to a presentation, although that is going to change. My son is going to present a power point of our family tree to me and my siblings! I agree inter-action is much more free when actually written by hand.

    And yes I can see it will stop communication, I must ask my daughter what happens in her classes. It always appears rubbish and too simplistic to me.

  • Comment number 20.

    SUCCESSFUL TEST - BUT THAT'S NOT IMPORTANT RIGHT NOW ( #14 #15 #16)

    Equal thanks to all - more equal thanks to one than others. (:o)

    Radio 4 Feedback has been challenging the spurious contamination of broadcast information ('signal to noise ratio', as one poster - so aptly - terms it).
    It is crystal-clear that, in the realm of 'information-media', NOISE is the new SIGNAL. I can only assume this is being ROLLED OUT, GOING FORWARD (in Media Studies?) along with trendy claptrap like that?

    Check out Radio Five 'program breaks'; actually DESIGNED to sound as if your radio has drifted OFF SIGNAL! Like - edgy - or what?

  • Comment number 21.

    Mistress76uk - the problem that a lot of the Scottish population has with being told that they are subsidy junkies and cannot manage economically on their own goes back to the 1975 McCrone Report. Try googling it. Please beware that there is a later dated report that relates to the teaching profession which you should not mix the 1975 report with. It makes interesting reading. If it had been published at the time time rather than being buried by the government, I suspect that Slamond and the SNP would have been redundant a long time ago. Of course, we are living in different times but many people in Scotland are deeply suspicious of the official line that comes out of London as a consequence of the burying of the McCrone Report. My own view is that London is very keen to keep Scotland as part of the union. It is not just about oil and gas revenues (and, yes, I know there is a huge amount of debate about how much of the reserves would pass to an independent Scotland) but there is a much wider resource issue. If the climate change models (including sea level rises) prove to be true then short of the gulf stream switching off and Scotland becoming covered in glaciers, Scotland has significant natural resources which an overcrowded UK might want to access.

  • Comment number 22.

    AH, BUT POWER IS, SURELY THE POINT! #15, 18 and 19.

    Power point and pre prepared materials are a curse when used prescriptively. i.e. This is what we are going to tell you, and ALL we are going to tell you. One point leading neatly, sequentially and controllingly (OK I know that’s not a word!) to the next often leaving little breathing space for reality, or absorption, digestion and regurgitation.

    In business/project culture I prefer flip charts and pens to 'capture' relevant facts or issues. There is a place for technology. Sometimes it is useful to be able to say (ok, you need to see this spreadsheet and voila – there it is on a screen). I/We favour occasional re-use of a well bulleted list or argument on a flip chart that can be blu tacked up if visual reminder stimulus is required.

    I wonder if this habit of pre determining what WILL BE said, thus stifling creativity and reactivity can be part of the fault many find with the presentation of Newsnight in recent times. It is prescriptive. It is pre determined. Now I understand to some degree it has to be, save for a major breaking world story, but in putting out early in the day this blog 'TONIGHT Matthew we will be talking about (for EXACTLY 4.52 minutes with ???whoever???? same old same old) has somewhat set the goods out a little too soon before the doors have been opened leaving little room for manoeuvre

    It has become all too safe. And unlike ASLAN, who was NOT safe, it isn’t even very GOOD anymore. LCD stuff. Though I think it is largely the format (and bowing to viewing figures) rather than individual presenters largely at fault.

    I was discussing this very issue elsewhere just a short time ago. Is the format all wrong. There is no really good serious news/debate programme that gives more than about 12 minutes per item. Maybe the blog is to blame. ONCE the ‘Team’ have put out ‘what’s coming up tonight, barring a major news story breaking, you’re going to get pre determined breaks. And DON’T start me on the 11:00 cut to NN Scotland!!!!!!!!!! Angry. You ain’t seen nothing yet. Rare shade of green.

  • Comment number 23.

    FORGET THE ARK - WALL BUILDERS REQUIRED FORTHWITH
    #21

    Quite! (an englishwoman domiciled in Scotland - home - some 20 years)

    Here, have the oil and gas, just leave me the beautiful peaceful hills, sweet fresh rivers, clear air, empty (comparatively) roads, whisky, haggis, arbroath smokies, and yes, the rain, the snow, the long dark winters, the road kill.....

    Oh bummocks. Think that was a thinly veiled tourist office ad!

    You know the old joke about God making such a beautiful place for so few people. Then look who he gave them as neighbour!!!!!!!

    There's always a downside.

    I shall repeat
    (an englishwoman domiciled in Scotland - home - some 20 years)




  • Comment number 24.

    @Nedafo2 #21 - thanks for the information on The McCrone Report 197 - I found this article linked to it:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/how-black-gold-was-hijacked-north-sea-oil-and-the-betrayal-of-scotland-518697.html

    I was shocked to read that the McCrone Report " was a document that could have changed the course of Scottish history. Nineteen pages long, Written in an elegant, understated academic hand by the leading Scottish economist Gavin McCrone, presented to the Cabinet office in April 1975 and subsequently buried in a Westminster vault for thirty years. It revealed how North Sea oil could have made an independent Scotland as prosperous as Switzerland."

  • Comment number 25.

    #21 nedafo2

    Very astute. Interesting you bring up the Gulf Stream slowing.

    For others Google An Abrupt Climate change.

    We have been stuck with the jet stream over us for 2 years now it has rained and rained summer and winter, While down South some of NN bloggers have told me how dry it has been.

    As the blog has been discussing Scotland and climate change etc. I have found these on the internet which cover both. After reading the first link I found the second link very interesting especially with the reference to Northern Tundra Alliance.

    http://thecelticlion.blogspot.com/2007/12/development-strategy-for-scotland.html

    http://thecelticlion.blogspot.com/2007/12/considered-views-please-on-scottish.html

  • Comment number 26.

    Roger Thomas ~ 25 - your links make interesting reading. I have limited knowledge of the science of climate change but at a very basic level, it is obvious to me that the world's growing population cannot continue to grow and increase consumption without us reaching a point where we run short of critical resources (I'm talking about energy, food, water, etc) and the pollution that we produce from economic growth poisons the earth. I grow weary of the media and others with vested economic interests announcing new technologies which will save the world and allow economnic growth to continue. In my view, it is all propaganda for the masses to enable them to believe that they don't need to change their behaviour to any great extent. I have reached the conclusion that vested interests mean that it will not change and we are heading for environmental catastrophe at some point (although I do not know if it will 2012 or some later date). As you have said previously, it is not all about climate change; there are factors such as top soil erosion which are also very important.

    What I find interesting is how people do not seem to relate these issues to the political scene. For example, what implications does they have for Scottish independence or the future of the EU. Here are a couple of examples. London is seen to subsidise other parts of the UK but what happens if sea levels rise substantially over the next 20 years or more? How much of our tax revenues will be spent building flood defences to protect the highly populated areas of the south-east of England? Another example relates to the EU. There was a recent report (I can't remember the author) predicting 6 degree temperature rises in southern Europe over the next 50 years. This would make parts of Spain, Italy and Greece virtually uninhabitable and destroy agriculture there. Will northern Europen members of the EU still be happy with the concept of freedom of movement of workers in thise circumstances? These are just a couple of issues that come to mind. There will be lots more.

    I've mentioned this before on blogs and have been variously labelled as a nationalist or a racist. This is not the point; I'm not a staunch nationalists or a Europhobe. It does however baffle me why people are not considering these issues.

    My suspicion (and you could suggest that I am entering the land of conspiracy theory here) is that many governments including the UK and US governments are aware that we are probably past the point of no return and are currently looking at how best to protect their own populations if it all comes to pass. It is in this scenario that retaining Scotland as part of the UK may be important to London.

  • Comment number 27.

    Afghanistan

    after 7 years are there really no afghans skilled enough to lead basic rifle range duties? which means this isn't about training. the war must go on because people have vested interests in it either monetary or politically.


    Iran

    the bbc report said the iranians were 'paranoid. given the history of western involvement [coups and whatnot] and the one sided bias against their nuclear programme and no one else's isn't that a bit of an insult? the obsessive if not hysterical focus on iran is being driven by middle east politics not by anything rational.

    Scottish independence

    if they take their zombie banks [rbs hbos etc] and the scottish political mafia that dominates westminster that has crashed the country and given it 2 unwinnable wars sounds a good idea?

    [maurice strong's] man made climate change.

    susan subtly promoting 'man made climate change? even if they did spend trillions on green tech doesn't means the climate will 'behave'?

    also on munich re we read

    ..The Munich Re Group is also supporting the principle of emissions trading by introducing innovative insurance products....

    http://www.munichre.com/sustainability/en/ecology/product_ecology/cdm/default.aspx

    so they like carbon trading?
    and with new products like 'carbon credit securitization' [heard that word before?]?
    as financial innovation piles into carbon trading its likely to be the next ponzi scheme?

    i see panorama [died as a serious news show sometime in the 1980s] also had a whole feature about the fight against 'man made global warming'? to keep promoting it so much do bbc execs have shares in the carbon exchanges? or do they believe in the social project?

    http://www.transition-dynamics.com/crestone/9crestonecolorado.html


  • Comment number 28.

    #26 Nedafo2

    I agree. There are more environmental threats top soil erosion, toxic dumping, increasing population with increasing consumption.

    Everything has been packaged as 'climate change'. As in if we all use a low energy light bulb everything will be OK.

    Such is this packaging of everything under the climate change banner, even myself at times has to resort to using the 'climate change' popular culture cliche, instead of planetary ecological life support system collapse.

    The 6degree rise is the top end scenario from the UNEP IPCC 4th assessment report.

    There is more known as in problems and solutions than is being put out in the media. But I too am growing weary of the narrow perspective of the official line they only promote.

    The Google search for: An Abrupt Climate Change Scenario is an official US report to the President commissioned by the original skunk works members.

    The more I see of official reports from within Governments. (I have contributed to some) and the less I see being done (or the wrong things being done) the more I wonder whether we as a planet are deliberately being taken down a path, as you say to a point of no return, to deliberately depopulate the earth by 5 billion plus. It will be blamed on 'nature' but really will be predetermined political policy.

  • Comment number 29.

    Roger Thomas - reflecting on the last paragraph of your entry at 28, do you think that it is possible to implement the technical solutions without creating economic chaos? In basic terms, as recent events have shown, the world's economic and financial systems rely on economic growth and it seems to me cannot cope with "negative growth" - bank's collapse, states go bust and there is a real risk of social and economic chaos. Is the implementation of real solutions compatible with economic growth? My instincts say no which is one of the reasons that I am pessimistic about the future but I am interested in your views.

  • Comment number 30.

    #29

    A vicious vicious circle isn't it?

    Choose where you cut. It will bleed. And bleed and bleed and ..... so will we.

    Who mops up best?

    Politicians, media moghuls, bankers, oil barons, scientists, environmentalists...... A scared public.

    One of the reasons I believe whatever the truth about climate change (or Roger's PELSS), drastically reducing resource consumption is a MUST at personal, local business and global levels to begin to redress the imbalance and over reliance on 'economics' and thereby reduce the impact of the surgery.

    We have to start looking back to having our needs met and our wants................ left wanting. What ever DID happen to delayed gratification?

  • Comment number 31.

    THREE BILLION ALL PROGRAMMED FOR COMPETITON TO SURVIVE, IN AN ALIEN ENVIRONMENT. (#29)

    When HomSap struggles to live long enough to reproduce, he is lean, fit, 'motivated', and short-lived. Few halt and lame; no terminal hangers-on with a basket of diseases of old-age.

    Look around - cockup. There is a small chance we might use language to advantage, but against MAN's default-state of animal-competition (rather than cerebral-cooperation) it's a hell of a task.

    My money is on Armageddon - then we can forget - and do it all (wrong) again.

  • Comment number 32.

    DELAYED GRATIFICATION - FOR EVERYTHING ELSE THERE'S PLASTIC (#30)

    Psychologists equate delayed gratification with maturity - if memory serves me. Maturity is declining, individually, nationally (EU-ally?) and globally. Look how America's citizens embraced the (outward*) State Tantrum after 9/11. 'Shock and Awe' was shooting the dog that attacks the child. Personally I watched it as Shakespeare's Sound and Fury.

    * In fact, the tantrum was a contrived act of 'Now See What You Made Me Do' (Games People Play). And the, previously, tantrum-led ordinary Americans are not going to accept the lie of 9/11 much longer. There is a large space where the WTC complex stood - watch that space.

  • Comment number 33.

    #29 nedafo2

    Such a short paragraph, such big questions. Google: Celtic Lion SD

    This was part of some work DEFRA recommended me to do for the Cabinet Office. First don't believe any the media or politicians are saying about 'unprecedented flooding' the Government, local authorities, police forces have known about it for years. They just buried their heads and hoped the inevitable wouldn't happen.

    Here recommendations are being made on the sustainable development aspects of Regulatory Impact Assessment (the foundation for UK legislation). Flooding is being used as an example as catastophic UK flooding was known about.

    In reality I would go further and reverse the attitude to economic growth. Decouple it from, or as a goal of development. Concentrate on environmental and social factors audits. Then let economic values float to find their own relationship with them.

    Will try and find other work I did for the Government on decoupling economic growth from real development.

    With respect to climate change. Frankly I would ignore it. Not that it isn't important. It is only one aspect of planetary ecological management. More a symptom than a problem. One could ask what was wrong with a patient and be told they have a fever and upset stomach. But they are symptoms. The problem may be Cholera. But the over all cure is from plumbers and groundworkers installing better sanitation.

    If the planet was a car. All that any agreement in Copenhagen will be is the equivalent of deciding to buy a tyre depth gauge in the hope that that is all that is required to get the car through a MoT test.

    #30 BYT I note has come up with an acronym. Perhaps then we should refer to Biological Life Ecological Support System. Those so I have read will inherit the Earth.

  • Comment number 34.

    Roger Thomas # 33 - thanks for this. I find it hard to imagine that we can decouple without financial and economic systems crashing with devastating results but then doing nothing doesn't get us anywhere. If the answer is depopulation, can we intervene?

  • Comment number 35.

    THE TIME HAS COME THE WALRUS SAID............
    #34

    Hmmm. Decisions decisions.

    Devastation at the hands of financial and economic collapse.
    vs
    Devastation at the hands of rising sea levels, massive displacement of humanity, or global starvation that would make do make Ethiopia Christmas 2004 look like a fight over the last party bag at a five year old's party.

  • Comment number 36.

    #34 nadfo2 and 35 BYT

    Perhaps this might help for an understanding

    http://openthefuture.com/2007/10/the_politics_of_geoengineering.html

    This is a site of someone who was involved in the preparation of the 'Abrupt Climate Change Scenario' report from the Pentagon to the US President in 2003.

    You may know the name of one of the comments. He was shortlisted to run the Millennium Dome as a global centre of applied planetary engineering in 2001.

    Open the Future saw part of the proposal for the UK Government and were completely amazed the UK could have been the world leader in environmental management.

    From this advised Open the Future and hence the US Government on part of the guideline ethics of Geoengineering. Unfortunately some of the links no longer work. But the comments expressed by in 2007 may be relevant more to you now.

    Welcome to, applied planetary engineering, or even Google those 3 words to see who is top ranked.

 

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