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Monday 16 November 2009

Verity Murphy | 15:22 UK time, Monday, 16 November 2009

Jeremy is presenting tonight, and here is what is coming up:

Prime Minister Gordon Brown is set to mount a robust defence of Britain's strategy in Afghanistan in his speech at the Lord Mayor's banquet tonight by warning that al-Qaeda is the biggest danger to UK national security.

But is the greater threat to be found on the streets of Britain rather than on the plains and mountains of Afghanistan?

Richard Watson examines the nature of the terror threat at home and we will discuss whether Britain has the right counter-terrorism strategy.

Michael Crick is in Norfolk where tonight a meeting will be held to decide whether to deselect Tory parliamentary candidate Elizabeth Truss for not telling the local Conservative Association about her affair with Tory MP Mark Field four years ago.

What does this row tell us about sex, sexism and the "modern" Conservative party?

And Stephen Smith got the best assignment - he has been to Harlem, New York to meet the hugely influential musician, Gil Scott-Heron.

Now aged 60 he has a new record scheduled for release in 2010 and talked to Stephen about his musical past, substance abuse, and the future.

Join Jeremy for all that and more at 10.30pm on BBC Two.


  • Comment number 1.

    all day the news has been about climate change agreements.

    there are some things we can agree. climate change is the new religion and carbon trading is its priests folly. it promises to make those part of the exchanges the richest people in the world. which makes it 'a very good religion' that needs constant promotion to ensure the money keeps rolling in?

    Vice-Chairman of Rothschild: "Carbon trading must be globally regulated"

    Rothschild to become the carbon trading kings
    [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

    David Mayer de Rothschild (born 25 August 1978) is a British adventurer, environmentalist[1] and head of Adventure Ecology, an expedition group raising awareness about climate change.

    Climate change belief given same legal status as religion
    [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

  • Comment number 2.

    the neocon wars

    will the british abusers face trial in iraq with a local jury?

    the biggest danger to national security is the neocon mindset that has perverted the uk foreign policy and seeks to redesign uk military from national defence to fighting these vexacious foreign based and losing wars.

    meanwhile the uk borders as shown last week seem open to anyone even half criminal?

    is karzai the new Iranian Shah? Is that the failed model of foreign policy they are re using now? heavily arm an undemocratic and corrupt government to keep a 'tight grip'? will not karzai face the same fate of the shah in the end?

  • Comment number 3.

    new links

    Vice-Chairman of Rothschild: "Carbon trading must be globally regulated"

    Climate change belief given same legal status as religion

    Rothschild to become the carbon trading kings

    or just search for the title of the article.

  • Comment number 4.


    So: James Brown is about to defend our invasion of Afghanistan. Might I record a few words in defence of the poor wee laddie? It was not Jimmie who got us into this war - it was the hated Tony. Poor Jimmie is now stuck with it - he dare not pull out for all manner of bad reasons. It is not Jimmie's fault that - poor judgement and all - they let him have the job he so desperately needed. WE know he has poor social skills, or he would not have sent that chaotic letter to a grieving mother. SO MANY ALTERNATIVES WERE AVAILABLE TO HIM that would have avoided his eye-watering, ROBUST DEFENCE on the telephone.

    Now he has to tell us that Alky Aida are coming to get us, BECAUSE OTHERWISE THE WHOLE WAR-CHARADE COLLAPSES. Then the other parties will mock him and pick up votes at election time - HE CAN'T ALLOW THAT.

    And that's civilised democracy - Westminster style..

  • Comment number 5.

    Has anybody ever read what the other arab (for want of a better word) countries think about us fighting in Iraq and Afganistan? We never seem to listen to their view on this situation.

    I think going into Iraq has completely destablised the area, it will take at least 50 years before there is some semblance of a happy society there again.

    And yes Jaunty, we do seem to be letting any criminal in, over 11,000 in our prisons at the last count.

  • Comment number 6.


    How can you have such a name and post such depressing news.

    Carbon trading is a scam. It will do nothing to protect the diversity of life etc.

    I can't believe the media are even allowed to give it coverage.

    Perhaps Neighbourhood Watch schemes have become so successful at preventing people charging pensioners for not replacing one slate on a roof for £5000 they have gone into carbon trading instead.

    Celtic Lion

  • Comment number 7.

    6 RT

    it's only depressing if you care :)

    some 'greek' tragedy is about those who think they can change the world. their endeavours end in 'tragedy'.

    so our duty [public service] is to keep free from false beliefs [philosophy]. which makes one understand why philosophic thinking is not taught in schools who are sophists who wish us to believe in their hand me down images.

    of course those who wish to perpetuate the darkness see anyone who doesn't buy into the darth maul mind tricks as a threat. which is why writers are among the first in the gulags.

    so we can look on the bright side....

  • Comment number 8.


    I never really thought it likely that the police could arrest the PM but why is he continuing to allow abuse, especially that more and more people are aware of this, including, I'm sure, the people he is going to be addressing tonight? Doesn't he have a grain of decency left in him? And how about shame?

  • Comment number 9.


    With regard to your suggestion of the interplay between the media and the public in an attempt to establish the parameters of what is acceptable and what is not, may I respond with the following?:

    A TV discussion a day will keep the maddest away.


  • Comment number 10.

    here's a film about afghaniland to add to the mix. is it real or black propaganda as some of the comments say?

  • Comment number 11.

    I don't understand what the problem is with this or that MP having an affair. I may well be painful on a personal level but why drag it out into the public domain? And it was 4 years ago, not yesterday. She is not the first or the last MP, male or female, to have had or who will have an affair. Life is not perfect and we cannot expect it to be in this respect. These things have been happening since time immemorial. The only thing I'm always concerned about is the kids, as I've always said and so it is up to both sides to make sure an affair or change of partners, or whatever, does not affect them too negatively as dragging kids into unpleasant if not vicious jealousy games cannot be good for them as they find it difficult to know and feel with which side their loyalties should lie. And if on top of that unwelcome third parties get involved tearing things apart even further, the situation can become a recipe for disaster for all parties concerned, not just the kids although they would be the biggest victims of a situation like that.

    Madam Mim

  • Comment number 12.


    That's great. Thank you. In fact, I used to skate to opera arias quite a bit and may do so again and to be honest I can skate to absolutely any music, from ancient indiginous via classical and popular/folk/jazz/blues/rap/heavy metal, etc to modern/contemporary dissonant musical pieces. If, for example, I get inspired by a musical phrase that feels scratchy then I will scratch as well, either with the front or the side or the back of my blades.

    I can see that you and brightyangthing have stimulated ecolizzy to sending a musical post to which I shall presently attend and write to her separately.


  • Comment number 13.


    It's good to see you posting about music but may I suggest that there are no definitive interpretations. In fact, I have never even heard of either the musician or the singer you're quoting whereas I have heard of Victoria de Los Angeles.


  • Comment number 14.



    This piece is also one of my absolute favourites and on listening to it just now I cried. Music sometimes does have this effect on me. I shall try and see whether I can find it on Amazon, download it to my iPhone and twirl to it tomorrow. It's just possible I do have it on one of my CDs, in fact, and shall also browse through those after the University Challenge.


  • Comment number 15.

    #10 Jaunty

    I would say at first look black propaganda.

    At 1.50 the man is so poor he has to sell his son. Yet despite custom of sitting on ground look at his white freshly laundered trousers.

    Taliban queue. They have been waiting, no envelopes, no brief cases. yet the white A4 pieces of paper are neatly folded no dog eared corners etc.

    Hostage. The bring two young men out notice the building was 20 yards behind them. Only when they are near the camera do they take the blindfolds off (for the camera) Anyone experienced in hostage release would have taken them off straight away. One to reassure the captives, two, they would have had to help them to their feet and guide them blind folded to the camera. Why?

    Again. everyone wears new freshly laundered clothes. Apart from the hostage with the US army top who has had hand prints of dust wiped on him. Strange shed. Would one keep a hostage in such a full shed with tools etc. Especially inconvenient if you wanted to get your bike out!

    Only viewed it once, but did it from the perspective of looking for clues that it was a fake. Then looked for evidence to support that. Didn't look at it as a neutral observer.

    Celtic Lion

  • Comment number 16.

    It is highly unlikely that even Helen Keller would fail to see the irony in the situation so belligerently and callously constructed by the Nu Cons. The public statements and the press releases all state - it would now seem, perchance, questionable - that the Nu Cons want to devolve more power down to constituency level.

    There is too much central control ... They bugle!

    “A” lists, “All women candidate lists” “..more ethnic minority representation ..” does not bode well if the candidates are imposed by the bullyington club boys at Central Office.

    If the contentious PPC is retained by the local association it will be a clear indicator of how much pressure has been put to bear and just how desperate the Nu Cons are to win the next election. If the A Lister is rejected it shows just how much Nu Con Central Office is out of touch with grass root tories.

    Would the local voters, given that their choices seem to be very limited, be willing to put their cross against the name of a candidate whom clearly has such little respect for the institution of marriage?

    A possible re-run of the Bedford Mayoral debacle perhaps?

    Lose - whatever way you look at it - lose, methinks!

    And if M Mr Big Con can’t see that then it is very questionable whether he has the - desired - skills to run this country!

    Could it cause the undoing of Mr Big Con himself?

    Nah! He got away with breaking a cast iron promise didn’t he!

    As said before 25 per cent of the list of a thousand are - and would prefer to be - ex lobbyists.

    Are they, these so called ‘best candidates’, going to want to pursue a Westminster career - which demands very much keeping to the party line, not biting the hands that feed you, and never sticking ones head above the parapet - or will they raise a question in the House about Mrs Blitherington-Smythe-Belcher’s .....

    Dahlias and Hot Toddy?

    I don’t think so!

  • Comment number 17.




  • Comment number 18.

    An hour and a half ago I had plenty to say about the Truss debacle.

    Said some of it earlier and JAPerson #16 has to some extent taken up the baton.

    So all I am going to add to
    '.... Would the local voters, given that their choices seem to be very limited, be willing to put their cross against the name of a candidate whom clearly has such little respect for the institution of marriage?'


    Let he is without sin cast the first.................. vote????????

    Sad that this all comes down to a small group of sanctimonious
    individuals far more worried about their own PERSONAL short term loss of face, or feeling left out in the cold or minor embarrassment than the greater good that stifles all that could be good in wanna be candidates.

  • Comment number 19.

    #14 Mim
    How amazing that a little known piece of music should be a favourite? of three people all posting on here today.

    It makes me cry too. I have a Dame Kiri recording.
    Nimrod always make me stop and think, sometimes cry.
    Sibelius another fave. Finlandia, when set to the hymn Be Still my soul, and the Karelia suite, (once the theme to World in Action I think and a prog rock classic by the Nice.

    Is CL watching?

    Missed UC. Work! Grrrr. Was going to test my theory of UC vs MM. Last MM episode I scored a worthy 52 points, of which 15 were on Specialist topics.

    Will have to iplayer in the morning when my brain cell has been rested. Hope to stay awake for NN tonight.

  • Comment number 20.


    A masterpiece, Brightyangthing!


  • Comment number 21.

    the only thing we need to know about afghanistan is that the relevant people have booked their seat on the last helicopter when it leaves the embassy rooftop.

    the political class need to apologise to the military for their flippant usage of them and to the british people for trashing their military forces with vexatious vanity wars based on bogus narratives.

  • Comment number 22.

    Gordie's cronies want withdrawal from Afghanistan in order to keep total control of the abuse, 'keep the helicopters off the roofs, eh?', that's what it's about tonight

  • Comment number 23.

    Just watching the debate of Afghanistan, I can't help thinking we are in one of those situations when it is totally pointless to look back.

    Why we went in is of little consequence now.

    My perception of the situation is that having gone in, we are now in a lose lose situation.

    Being there will inflame certain elements of the radical mulsim community already in Britain. Pulling out without having stabilised the government or Afghanistan, will merely open the floodgates to more of the same.

    A decision needs to be made. A firm objective and exit strategy implemented and the hatches battened down to see through the fallout. It may not be comfortable. It may not be pretty. Can't see a choice.

    Ooh, just heard that wonderful phrase, the 'Turnip Taliban'. Priceless. I've enjoyed many a holiday on Norfolk. My eyes are watering.

  • Comment number 24.

    Oh ha ha ha @ Turnip Taliban :o)
    Lively debate by Jeremy on Truss' selection.
    Poor Sir Jeremy had his hopes dashed to find Michael interviewing him and not THE Jeremy :o(
    Excellent reports by Richard, Michael and fabulous report by Stephen too :o)

  • Comment number 25.

    Thanks to everyone who was part of the response to Barrie's request for an example of time relocation strategy. As we all contribute to this blog, I considered it appropriate to just relocate information in time within the blog.

    My thanks especially to BYT and apologies for any intrusion you may have experienced in revealing your birthday. There will be about 100 or more posts a day over all the NN blogs.

    Out of the 36,500 comments over the past year. The one that reference Balmoral, an exchange between Mim and Byt. Plus referenced to a photo in response to Ecolizzy, and showed the relationship between Balmoroal and where BYT lives, from the only place near me, where that relationship could be viewed, was placed on BYTs birthday 12 months before.

    Now we don't know whether BYT lives there or even if it was her birthday or the film she was watching. But if those things are true. I did not say to Barrie time travel, I said time relocation.

    Barrie asked for an example. So a comment was relocated in time from the past to the future. Or did that comment exist in the past for BYT to access in the future.

    If it was BYTs birthday. Look at the comment thread. It did not say does 27th Nov mean anything to anyone, to an audience of 1000s. Statistically it would mean something to someone.

    Barrie asked for an example. Only one comment was offered to BYT which was a reply to Barrie which referenced Balmoral.

    When it bounced back, relocated in time. BYT said it was her birthday. Now we only have BYTs word on that. If it is true, a birthday is the most relevant date to a person.

    That was not a trick, as Derran Brown says about his work. It was a reply to Barrie who wanted an example of time relocation technology. A date bounced back in time from the past to the present. If BYT is telling the truth, within the parameters of this blog.

    Let me show you you how it was done. Barrie wanted an example. So scientifically it was important to define the parameters with this blog.

    BBC Newsnight blog

    If you notice I mostly end a post with Celtic lion, now because of the way search engines work I have found I don't need lion to track myself Celtic will do.


    BYT and Mim were involved in a discussion (which I took no part in, check the thread) about a garden party at the Queens place in Balmoral.


    So now enter into Google

    BBC Newsnight Blog Celtic Balmoral

    Now BYT will you again confirm the top line is your Birthday. I have to again confirm I have no influence whatsoever over Googles search parameters.

    Celtic Lion

    PS now didn't BYT quote Macbeth, go on BYT confirm it. Perhaps you might try the 5th hit instead

  • Comment number 26.


    You seem to have it just about right as far as I am concerned.

    A firm decision by Obama's administration needs to be made quite quickly, followed by consultations with all the other countries whose forces are actually present in Afghanistan and then the decisions taken explained to the populace at large. This way the public themselves can make clear judgements for or against NATO's presence in the region and hopefully allay fears and doubts about the validity of the whole effort.

    Your view that whatever one does one can never satisfy all the parties involved is very much up to the point, just as you said about situations like the one that Elizabeth Truss & her Association have found themselves in.

    One a decision is made one might as well get on with things.



  • Comment number 27.

    What did I learn about Afghanistan, the reasons why we are invading Muslim countries, what will happen next and how we can stop Muslims wanting to attack us here from Newsnight tonight? Nothing. What did I learn about those questions from watching tonight's Dispatches regarding the influence of the Israeli lobby in British politics? Everything. While anyone who has been paying attention is aware of how vocal the Israeli lobby is, until tonight I had no idea how insidious and all pervading that influence was, not just in politics but at the Beeb as well. So from now on I'm just going to watch NN so I can dissect its propaganda Chomsky style, just so you BBC types know, war is NOT peace, freedom is NOT slavery and ignorance is NOT strength no matter how many times you repeat it, not even when it comes from Jeremy Paxman himself.

  • Comment number 28.



    I should have said: once a decision is made

  • Comment number 29.

    I've come to a definitive decision tonight that Gordon Brown is off his rocker

  • Comment number 30.


    That's an interesting conclusion that you've come to. I have been aware of some Jewish threads but not to that extent.

    I wonder whether Pete the Mandy is involved in those threads, I bet he is. And there seem to be some connections both to the Rothschilds and the Masons.

    And I'm supposed to be laying golden eggs for them...

  • Comment number 31.


    About half an hour ago I tried to send the Queen a couple of my ditties but Twitter was blocked and when I went back to the website there was a message that 'Bears' were tearing everything apart.

    It's not that I cannot think of other ways of making sure that the Queen does receive them. I'm doing it on recommendation of a Queensway street walker. I don't think I would have dared otherwise but then I thought why not. If the Queen thinks they are crap then so be it. As I keep repeating, I'm not scared of the truth, unlike quite a few NN bloggers hiding either behind Jeremy Paxman or in black holes.


  • Comment number 32.

    On Turnips & creeps from Madam Mim

    There are creeps and there are turnips
    And there are turnips and creeps
    One creep from a black hole squeaks
    While a turnip valiantly speaks

    Of things higher and noble
    And straight against twaddle
    Produced from the said black holes
    Playing with sausages and dolls.

  • Comment number 33.

    As my note at #29 has been rejected, being obviously too offensive to the PM, I'll try to reformulate my opinion.

    Gordon Brown has lost the plot.

  • Comment number 34.

    Spookier and spookier said Alice
    Wackier and wackier says mim
    Creepier and creepier says Gwyn
    Spookier and spookier said Alice

  • Comment number 35.

    Celtic #25
    My birthday is indeed Nov 27. Every year! Can’t prove it anymore than any of us can prove we are not child beaters, axe murderers, Jordan, mp’s on the take or even Nick Griffin himself. But it is!

    Balmoral WAS mentioned - though in the interests of accuracy it was mentioned in the context of a DofE Award not a Garden Party – that venue was Holyrood – doesn’t change the value of the link.

    Again. The Blog link to Balmoral was dated 27 Nov. My birthday.

    I quoted (or rather mis quoted – deliberately - Macbeth – Friday #136 – (As Lady Macbeth may have it, All too Full of the Milk of Human frailty.)

  • Comment number 36.

    Spookier and spookier said Alice
    Wackier and wackier says mim
    Creepier and creepier says Gwyn
    Spookier and spookier said Alice

    Sexier and sexier said mim
    Oh, how I love you said him
    I love you too said she
    We are both happy, we!

  • Comment number 37.

    #27 turbojerry Yes I watched Dispatches and very interesting it was too. I was very surprised at the influence of the Israeli lobby and it's pressure on the BBC, isn't the wool pulled over ours. Although it wasn't of a certain poster on here, now latterly vanished, was it?!!! The programme actually proved that persons arguement.

  • Comment number 38.

    #33 explanation of and a rhetorical question 2 in 1

    How can a serious politician, never mind a PM in a Western democracy, run their domestic and foreign policy based on torture & 'coersion' with a 'promise' of an arranged (forced) marriage thus giving way to a few hanky panky sessions by 'colleagues' and by so doing risking thousands of lives and causing misery to even more thousands and who is supposed to get the biggest amount of dosh out of it?

    Madam Mim

  • Comment number 39.



    As even you mention the Dispatches programme, when I come back I'll try and watch it if it's available as a recording.

    Thank you for that


  • Comment number 40.

    Dead right dont be an artists because of Art king Saatchi - feudal lord of art and his minions of the art money importance delusion . Oh how great it would be if no one entered a single thing.

    You know so much more could be dont that has constructive value with art I mean really helping people with mental health problems related to social issues and age and not just on the edge - pretty pictures on the corridor walls of hospitals and gone wrong local arts organisations who cant see the wood for the trees when a lot of EU dosh comes their way .

    But no we have egos to satisfy, and that all 'important' art word 'importance' .

    Wheres the value of your importance Saatchi ? is it in the greedy filthy rich stinkers who's eyes are on the price of your decision, make you feel good, but good for what?


    Mim hope you have a good day the sun is out here and that always makes me feel good.

  • Comment number 41.

    Frankly i want to praise the Newsnight team for reviewing something that at best (and this is no diservice to the Something else Team) is represented by legendary film maker Don Letts and team. I was beaming seeing Paxman pay such complimentary homage to the man that is a musical force in so much american music.

    Always chided as a radical i have always found him honest and witty. His last album "spirits" was full of reform, reflection and ascerbic political wit wrapped into lyrical sensibility and backed up with well textured and well crafted music. "Work for peace" still rings true, through to the current Iraq war, even though it was written in 1991.
    But also classic tracks like B-movie are unstoppable funny and undenyingly honest. I recommend that anyone go and buy all his albims as i have. You wont be disappointed.

    If you youtube him you can see some skits and excerpts from his legendary performances (which i have been honoured to see on a number of occasions)

    a welcome return!

    Thank you newsnight

  • Comment number 42.


    I'm certainly not going to watch his programme either. All these programmes are hyped up with affected mannerisms coming out of the presenters' mouths or with close to hysteria voices, with the ultimate aim, as you say, to make big bucks out of it.

    And it could be so much better if it was done in a normal, human way with the aim to really promote the value and importance of artistic creativity, something which seemed to have been achieved by the 'Off by Heart' programme that Jeremy Paxman took part in. At the end of it all the kids were given wonderful praise from the judges and there was none of the hysteria which so characterises most of the other talent shows. It is a real shame because some people are very good and clearly talented.

    That's one of the reasons I don't watch the 'Dance on Ice' TV show. As much as I like Jayne Torvill and Christopher Dean, last year when the actor Jeremy was voted out, which had been clearly prearranged as he was really good in that particular episode, the whole thing made me even more angry about all the crap that's so widely spread all over the TV.

    P.S. I remember the colours that Jeremy wore that day, they were black and luminous green.

    The weather is fantastic again down here in London and I'm planning to push off quite soon.

    Kind regards


  • Comment number 43.


    By the way, the Dance on Ice Team were at Queen's yesterday morning and I am so pleased I got there late just in case they had been planning to film my twirling which I don't think was all that bad though I could only skate to superimposed music as the ice dog was around and he would have stopped me from skating to music that I have on my iPhone.


  • Comment number 44.


    It looks like you are a new kid on the block. Welcome.

    I'll follow your advice regarding Gil Scott-Heron whom, I'm now ashamed to admit to, I'd never heard of before.


  • Comment number 45.

    Thank you for the warm welcome.

    This link is a good place to start, but i would thoroughly recommend buying Moving Target, Reflections, Pices of a Man, Spirits and any one of the countless compilations of his work that have been released.

    Listen to it in the recent historical mind of the context of which it was written i.e. B-Movie is a masterpiece. Youtube him for live performances...there was also a hardtalk interview with him a few years back that was very good, but it was deleted from Youtube for obvious copyright reasons.

    anyway, enjoy the tips and i look forward to chewing the fat with Y'all.

  • Comment number 46.



    Shall do either later or tomorrow. I'm awfully delayed today in shifting out of here but I'm glad that I've just received Yasmin Levy's album 'La Juderia'. She also is on Wikipedia which gives her a wonderful homage almost for her achievements in combinging Jewish, Middle Eastern and Flamenco elements in her music and songs. She does have an amazing, what I would call, expansive voice. The experience of listening to some of her songs is purely exhilarating for me and I was hoping to glide and twirl to her singing yesterday but it wasn't to be the case.

    I'm not sure whether you saw some of the political posts from last night about the Jewish lobby spreading their web all over but I would like to say that when it comes to people like Yasmin or Leonard Cohen I don't give a monkey whether they use them or not. Both of them transcend all the crap that's going on all over politics and the media, and whatever else. Example, Leonard Cohen's 'Villanelle for Our Time', a song that Streetphotobeing would probably be keen on. I wonder whether he's heard it!?


  • Comment number 47.

    Yasmin Levy is great. May i also recommend Los Dessterados, Oi Va Voi, Balkan Beat Box, Daphna Sadeh and The Voyagers and Sophie Solomon. All of them real musicians, Jewish in some degree, none of them extra dimensional aliens and none of them invloved in the new episodes of old conspiracies.

    Everyone needs a bogeyman it seems, but it always seems to be the same bogeyman. A crying shame and one that also obscures the real discussion on universal morality and truth that everyone who cites these conspiracies claims to be march behind the banner of.

    Personally i dont put a CD on waiting to hear the subliminal effect of a pre-orientated psycho-active trigger embedded in the music. Sounds like the withchunt that used to plague, Judas Priest, Ozzy Osbourne, Prince and even Queen??!! Who i seem to remember there was a vicar in the north in the late 80's early 90's who had a specially adapted record player to play records backwards so as to reveal the "devils work"...anyway it was accused by him that "another one bites the dust" backwards...actually says "its fun to smoke marijuana" (not that i endorse this in any way of course but await to see if the newsnight team run home to dig out their copies of the album and then spin them round backwards at 33.33RPM to reveal the hidden message)

    ...i eagerly await Stephen Smiths report on this very phenomenon.

  • Comment number 48.

    Sorry to spoil the cosy party, discussing our favourite music, but this should also bring tears to your eyes, particularly if you are a taxpayer:

    The link is related to last night's NN programme:

    "Richard Watson examines the nature of the terror threat at home and we will discuss whether Britain has the right counter-terrorism strategy."

    Gordo says he's got it! He must have more afront than Margate.

    The two panelists, billed as leading members of the Muslim community, on yesterday's NN discussion made it clear that the trigger for terrorism in UK (or it's prelude, radicalisation) is caused not by training camps in Afghanistan, but by our waging of war on Muslim countries. This is not the old-type of war over territory; it's seen even by the two moderates, and other Muslims speaking out on the programme, as a war against Muslims - i.e. a religious war.

    Finally, abandoning attempts at repetition of Brown's latest mantra, John Denham, Communities Secretary, made his last-ditch stand on the argument that this is a democracy and we cannot allow violence to settle differences! Well, that should solve the problem then, except we must be allowed to continue our war.

    Apart from the appalling loss of life, one wonders what is the overall cost of our attempts to change people with rooted-at-birth ideologies.
    I've lost count of those people now with the word 'Community' in their title, and the programme referred to a fund of £140 million aimed at attempting to prevent violent extremism. This is just one of many such attempts to change cultures that don't want to be changed - any more than the English amongst us relish the changes that are being forced on our culture.

  • Comment number 49.

    It looks like you're going to keep me occupied for a long time to come, Cambridgebeatnik.

    Thank you for all that


  • Comment number 50.

    My #5 and #48 That'll teach me to miss newsnight Indi! I asked the question at 5 why don't we ask muslims their opinions, and then didn't listen to the answer, oopps!

    I agree it must appear a religious war to muslims. Is that why we have to bend over backwards to accommodate their beliefs here. With hindsight we should never have gone into Iraq, no WMDs, although Saddam was pretty awful to his people, it was a stable country. And I've never understood why we're in Afganistan, it just doesn't wash, it's to keep terrorism at bay here, in fact I think it's done the total opposite. I can't follow the logic of invading a country that hadn't threatened us directly, because they might attack us.

    What I also don't understand is why so many muslims want to live here, surely if you hate a country you don't chose to live with those people.

  • Comment number 51.

    ~50 ecolizzy
    "What I also don't understand is why so many muslims want to live here, surely if you hate a country you don't chose to live with those people"

    I suggest it is the nature of an ideology, particularly one rooted-at-birth, that all must surely wish to share such a treasured belief. Muslims are not alone in this: we did it with Empire, and others with missionaries and Holy Wars, and the Pope is always on world tour with his roadshow solution to all the world's ills! Now we are doing it in the name of that wonderful, but equally faulted and unwanted ideology - Democracy.

  • Comment number 52.

    #51 That's a very good answer Indignantindegene, being non religious, I tend to forget about religion and it's influence. Do you think having had two PMs who are very open about their religious beliefs it has caused even more problems. I've never found religion so prominent in Britain until the last 12 years. I don't remember other PMs even mentioning faith!

    Yes Empire, what problems that has loaded on our current day heads, much like the QE will on future generations!

    Hhhmm democracy, seems to me the rich exploiting the poor.

    Did you read the article at Migrationwatch from the Kenya London News? Very interesting to read that they see themselves as the main earners supporting the WWC, and the middle classes in luxury and idleness. It's good to read how others percieve our society.

  • Comment number 53.

    #50& #51

    That's a very valid point thatyou're both making. I've quite often used this argument in real life.


  • Comment number 54.



    There is quite a bit truth in what you're saying about the rich and the poor and yet not all rich are selfish swine. Far from it. How about for example the owner of Microsoft? He may not always respect fair competition principles but he does spend millions on the poor and from what I understand he and his wife brought up their kids making sure that they respect the value of money and to be responsible for their actions.

    Personally, although it may not look like that at present, I used to know and be friends with rich people, some of them seriosly, and rather than just using me we either had 'profitable" excanges with both parties benefitting, or simply they were generous and kind with me withot expecting me to pay back in kind at a later date.

    Let's hope Newsnight is not disappointing tonight




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