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Tuesday 20 October 2009

Sarah McDermott | 17:59 UK time, Tuesday, 20 October 2009

Here's what is coming up tonight:

"We believe that this decision of the IEC is legitimate, legal and constitutional and that it strengthens the path towards democracy." Afghan President Hamid Karzai said today as he confirmed that he will take part in a run-off for the Afghan presidency against Dr Abdullah Abdullah in two weeks time .

Tonight, Lyse Doucet will be reporting for Newsnight from Kabul.

We will have the latest on the decision, the international pressure which brought it to fruition, the difficult security issues from a second vote and the all important question of whether Afghanistan ensure that this round is fraud free.

Also we have a new film in our series about young people leaving the care system.

Tonight, Liz MacKean catches up with Phil, who is turning 18. Phil has been in several foster homes over the years and must now prepare to move on from his latest foster placement and live on his own. Watch a preview clip of that here.

And we will be looking into claims that the problem of sex trafficking has been exaggerated and that the number of people who have been brought into the UK and forced against their will into prostitution is much smaller than claimed. We hope to be speaking to one of the politicians who pressed for change to sex trade laws in England and Wales.

Join Jeremy later.

Comments

  • Comment number 1.

    Looks like a slow night.

    Nothing on Spitfires etc? Just the dreary Afghan 'war' and a vain effort to pump some life into it?

  • Comment number 2.

    Re: Phil

    Are you going to inform us...About Phil's plans and his future outside of Care of the State...

    My Best Wishes are being sent to him...

    ~Dennis Junior~

  • Comment number 3.

    Nope, not much happening in the world, eh?

    http://www.marketwatch.com/story/americas-soul-is-lost-and-collapse-is-inevitable-2009-10-20

    We truly are sleepwalking into the Age of Uncertainty:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Age_of_Uncertainty

  • Comment number 4.

    from mimpromptu
    Streetphotobeing
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/42833216@N05/3971255823/
    Is this where you suggest I paste the link?
    mim

  • Comment number 5.

    I have a question, why is Phil chucked out at 18, when foreign immigrant "children" can stay in care until 21? Also was Phil getting the generous £25 weekly every Friday pocket money? Kent council seem to think that is essential for foreign "children", according to one wag, they go straight round the corner and spend it on booze and fags.

  • Comment number 6.

    ecolizzy (#5) I suggest it's because large numbers of 'caring' people don't have a clue how they actually do harm through not having grasped how negative reinforcement works.

  • Comment number 7.

    what makes people think we care if the afghans have dubious elections? we have them here too? didn't a judge say our electoral system would disgrace a banana republic?

    back to the 4 billion a year 'war' within the uk it seems there is a row over the Preventing Violent Extremism (PVE) strategy? there doesn't seem to be an end game with that either? will it be a perpetual low level 'civil war'? an endless inquisition?

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/oct/20/prevent-terrorism-muslims-radicalisation


    the spanish inquisition lasted 300 years.

  • Comment number 8.

    Mervyn King calls for banks to be split

    However, the Treasury, the Financial Service Authority have rejected the idea of splitting up the banks, while the Tories think that Britain acting alone would be ineffective.

    ..He added: “To paraphrase a great wartime leader, never in the field of financial endeavour has so much money been owed by so few to so many. And, one might add, so far with little real reform.” ..

    http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/economics/article6883005.ece

    because the political class represent the oligarchy not the public.

    why do people call it 'the national debt' rather than the bankers debt?

    ....“At the current rate of deterioration, borrowing seems set to be around £195 billion".....

    and like all government figures creeps up with every announcement?

    why are not all financial services profits taxed at 70%? without the public money to support the system they could make no profit?

  • Comment number 9.

    bookhimdano (#7) How come everyone can readily see that it's Jews against Muslims in the Middle-East, but not in the UK, USA and elsewhere? Why can't people see that European Gentiles are just fighting a war for Israel/Jews against Muslim Gentiles?

  • Comment number 10.

    bookhimdano (#8) "why are not all financial services profits taxed at 70%? without the public money to support the system they could make no profit?"

    Is it because the British electorate is now so incredibly dumb, it can't spot economic anarchism (Austrian or Chicago School) when it's spelled out for them as New Labour (synonyms being Conservatives or Liberal-Democrats)?

    Hearing them say 'sorry' in a Select Committee meeting seems to be enough for them. Still, now the daft public won't be getting self-certificated mortgages or loans....Who's sorry now?

  • Comment number 11.

    from mimpromptu
    Streetphotobeing

    The soup’s not made, ran out of time
    Will have to drink instead a long glass of wine.

    I hereby declare how I love myself
    Beyond all belief, me and no-one else
    I simply don't care about others' health
    It's me, me, me all day and it's me all year
    As far as I'm concerned all can go to hell.

    I'm only here to satisfy MY needs
    That's why I've boasted of the praising kids.
    That's why I write to you, Streetphotobeing,
    Out of love for myself – that's why I am musing.

    mim the selfish

  • Comment number 12.

    #11 Do you work for Goldman Sachs? If not, you should.

  • Comment number 13.

    Denis McShane - nearly as incredible as Jim Murphy?

  • Comment number 14.

    "Patronising indifference", admonished Dennis Macshane of JP tonight; he might have put the word "sneering" in there somewhere too. While we all value and need hard-hitting, questioning, take-nothing-at-face-value inquisitors to question our politicians, they should have the technique to do so without appearing to be out simply to make themselves look clever and to score silly points by being more cynical-than-thou. We can all easily be encouraged to laugh at the politico who can't think quickly enough on his feet in the studio to answer the quip of the man who dominates the microphone (and wasn't it instructive how JP suddenly miraculously found a few seconds more despite having just called time-out when Macshane uttered thoseaccusatory words at JP's professionalism ?

  • Comment number 15.

    The lady from the English Collective of Prostitutes was brill, McShane was a twerp, Jeremy wasn't much better! The ECO has a real and credible voice on this issue - I don't think she was offered a fair contribution, but she took control and confronted McShane really well, like Jeremy said, she was 'ace'!

    peajayelle

  • Comment number 16.

    Why does newsnight keep leading on the WRONG story over and over? A tortusously slow opening from Lyse Doucet merely stating that there's to be an election rerun was a waste of time. Meanwhile back home, worthy news about women’s short-lists and BNP hijacking was ignored. Newsnight’s “special features” do not make good TV!

  • Comment number 17.

    WOMAN-POWER AT ITS BEST

    What more proof do we need that ultimate power lies with women (the male orientated sort) for the simple reason that men are richard-led?

    I have waited years to see the smug chipmunk-grin wiped off the face of McShane. Not only was it wiped, a manic fury replaced it. Behold the man.

    Did someone say Paxo was there too? I didn't notice.

  • Comment number 18.

    IF THAT MARTIAN LANDS IN YOUR BACK GARDEN - HOW WILL YOU EXPLAIN?

    There are more than 6 billion of us in a terrible mess. And just a few untrained, unscreened individuals wield power over them.

    The Hitchhikers Guide typified us as harmless - upgraded to 'mostly harmless'. Suddenly we are so deranged, we are SELF HARMING, and very harmful indeed to one another. Not to mention - potentially - to the cosmos.

    If one moots the idea of alien life navigating the cosmos, folk who KNOW stuff say: "Nonsense, they would have visited us."

    Would you? Perhaps that is why your shrubs are still upright . . .

  • Comment number 19.

    BRITISH CORRUPTION - CORRUPTION YOU CAN TRUST (#7)

    Oh Bookhim! Do I have to point out, again, (:o) that British Corruption, like pirating, slave trading, missionarying, arms exporting, colonial exploiting, and cheap labour importing, are all done with an expertise and aplomb that passeth all simple scrutiny? Did not Sir Jonathan Bullshirt say: "We shall fleece them in their homelands, we shall fleece them in the markets, we shall fleece them at the ATM and Bank - its a splendid agenda!"

    Of course - no one expects the British Iniquity.

  • Comment number 20.

    #14 from mimpromptu
    neotrubadour
    What you don't realise, 'neotrubadour', or maybe you do, is that it is the police themselves who are running the most outrageous and vile sex scandal, costing the taxpayer a bomb and a leg, that has ever been invented in the history of mankind. It is on a global scale, you know, and the currency is gold bars, lots of them. Madam Mim would be happy with just one of them as she hasn't even seen any yet and she has never dreamt of one anyway. But, should an opportunity present itself, why not? Imagine how many disadvantaged kids could be helped and how many young people taken off the streets. She could even consider building an Olympic style ice rink somewhere in London. This dream has followed her for a long time now. It would be beautiful, spacious and full of natural light. The name would have to be discussed. Madam Mim has a few ideas but they'll remain secret for the time being.

  • Comment number 21.

    from mimpromptu
    Streetphotobeing, a new ditty for a new dawn

    My link to my Grandma via the invisible thread
    Seems to be working to a good effect
    Connecting the East to more democratic West.
    Isn’t it great to work on her behest?

    All those conversations that we used to have
    Have come to fruition continuing the wave.
    It’s light that I prefer rather than cave.

    mim

  • Comment number 22.

    The Newsnight coverage of Mervyn King's speech on the need to separate retail banking from high-risk investment activities was disappointing. A brief mention was given of the (rather uncertain) position of the Tories, but no mention of what was the really significant congruence - that Mervyn King was now proposing _exactly_ what Vince Cable of the Lib. Dems has been arguing for months: that the two types of banking _must_ be separated.

    In journalistic terms surely _this_ was 'the story' - that King was now supporting Cable's position.

    The BBC has been criticized recently for sticking to a 'two-party' approach to political commentary. Here was an ideal opportunity to demonstrate that the BBC acknowledges that the third party has different, clearly-articulated and highly relevant views - and it failed the test!

  • Comment number 23.

    from mimpromptu
    Streetphotobeing
    I've had a relatively good night and on waking up the following ditty came up to my mind:
    Twenty one past six the clock seems to tick
    On the 21st of October, ten days before November,
    With the sun on the way preparing to play
    Its role in the enlightenment and further enactment
    Of the truth coming out a few hours from now.

    That's it for the moment Streetphotobeing
    I'm sure I'll be engaging in further reporting.

    Kind regards
    mim

  • Comment number 24.

    APPEARANCES AND SOCIAL DESIRABILITY

    mimpromptu (#20) "Imagine how many disadvantaged kids could be helped and how many young people taken off the streets."

    Do you actually spend any time practically doing anything to help 'disadvantaged kids' etc, or do you just have thoughts and write words about this, which you hope might make you look good to others?

  • Comment number 25.

    RHETORIC VS REALITY

    grasman (#22) "that Mervyn King was now proposing _exactly_ what Vince Cable of the Lib. Dems has been arguing for months: that the two types of banking _must_ be separated."

    All this arguing for and proposing makes them look good doesn't it, good enough to elect in an imminent General Election? The problem is, that's all it is. The three parties are liberal-democratic - that is deregulation. If anyone listens to them at their conferences or reads their manifestos, follow their behaviour in Parliament, they'll see that in practice they vie to beat each other as being anarchistic, neoliberal. This is about not interfering with personal liberties, the right to run a business, the right to.....

    What King said may well be true, but it just sets up the three Liberal-Democratic parties to ramp up their duplicitous election rhetoric about what they would do if elected. Just remember what Thatcher did, what Blair did, what Brown did. They all deregulated, and the Lib-Dems seem wishy washy because they can't do anything else but do nothing!

    Does anyone you see Old Labour structures and policies in good health anywhere? Look at how the BNP is treated as an example as to why the answer is no. The BNP attracts negative media attention in a way that ha long seemed to me to drive votes away from any statist i.e National, Socialist (Old Labour) party....

    National Socialism is just Socialism in One County as in the People's Republic of China and Labour in 1945. What was long depicted as 'communism' in the UK and Europe was in fact Trotskyite anarchism, whch took people's attention off the truly insidious economic/social anarchism which Cameron, Brown and Clegg and those before them peddle in the name of freedom, rights, choice etc. The freedom goes to Financial Services.

    Hence 'Moral Hazard'.

    WWII was all about fighting the sources of Moral Hazard. Read it carefully.

  • Comment number 26.

    NEGATIVE REINFORCEMEMT

    It makes one feel very good, but often does a lot of harm?

    (PS. Note to the unwary, don't assume you know what this technical term refers to, look it up if not 100% sure).

  • Comment number 27.

    Erratum NEGATIVE REINFORCEMENT

    NB It has nothing to do with hedonism, or how you 'feel'. Behaviour is all about rates/frequencies and their outcomes, i.e consequences.

  • Comment number 28.

    #24
    jj
    You know, jj, a few years ago I spent 8 months helping an Ukrainian girl and her mother at the Atkinson Morley's Hospital after her operation went wrong and she got almost completely paralysed. I gave up on almost everything for those ladies because they were so isolated and desperate. I saw them before starting work, at lunchtime and then after work, frequently until 11 pm and then went again to visit them at weekends. Stop interfering in my life, jj. You have nothing to offer to it. Look at yourself first before you start telling everybody off but then again I think it is too late anyway for any significant redemptiom for you apart from getting help from psychiatrists and perhaps forgiving churchmen but I'm not one bit interested how you get on with them.

  • Comment number 29.

    from mimpromptu - continuation of #28
    and that's just one example of my help to disadvantaged people, not necessarily children. I shall not quote them here as I might be accused of having too large an ego and of boasting, and what would be disastrous, prejudicing the 'cases' that I am currently working on.

  • Comment number 30.

    from mimpromptu
    apologies for the last sentence being badly formulated from the stylistic point of view but I'm afraid I haven't got the time to work on it further as the time has come to push off and join the humanity on the London streets

  • Comment number 31.

    mimpromptu (#28;29) It looks to me like you do nothing at all other than try to make yourself appealing to people. I don't see you revealing any positive, practical, contribution at all to anything or anyone. You are deluded, and like most deluded people, can't see how you are deluded.

    Think that harsh? if so, you haven't a clue.

  • Comment number 32.

    Postscript (#31) Like a child, when reprimanded for behaving in ways which are against their own best interests, you will, like thegangofone and so many others these days, stamp your feet defiantly, and carry on regardless. In childhood it's called Oppositional Defiance, in adulthood it grows into a nasty twisted mess for obvious reasons, namely, humans are social creatures - it shows up in language, i.e verbal behaviour.

    Learn to take corrective feedback and show that you can act upon it in your own best interests, or.... you'll be miserable and it will all be your own doing through ommission.

    Advice of An Exorcist (of the intensional)

  • Comment number 33.

    THE BIGGER PICTURE

    Campaign groups for relief of suffering and Human Rights abuse are not what they seem.

    They are anti-statist vehicles.

  • Comment number 34.

    'Mr Griffin was reported on the BNP's website comparing Generals Sir Mike Jackson and Sir Richard Dannatt to Nazi war criminals hanged after the Nuremberg trials.'

    Could this be black humour as he later claimed or a Freudian slip where he thinks of those trials and others, like Lord Haw Haw's, where justice caught up with the perpetrators.

    The BNP is going to have to start defending its confused morass of statements and policies - they are "not a Nazi Party" its just their leader and activists who are National Socialists - and will at some point perhaps start thinking of their dream of a race war.

    Even with the odd person in the Security services and perhaps some Majors in the army they can't win and Griffin must know that.

  • Comment number 35.

    #1 jaded_Jean

    "Nothing on Spitfires etc? Just the dreary Afghan 'war' and a vain effort to pump some life into it?"

    So there we have the real attitude of the far right and the BNP to the military and "our boys". A dreary war where men - not people who beat up a Romany mother with a four day old child - fight and die for their country.

    Thats the country that flew the Spitfires against the Nazis and though I am not Old Labour where socialists fought the fascists with total vigour hating everything that they stood for.

  • Comment number 36.

    #30 mimpromptu

    I agree that the far right aren't totally paid up members of the human race. Even their insults are mechanical devices and their tears are always crocodile tears.

  • Comment number 37.

    #32 jaded_jean

    "Like a child, when reprimanded for behaving in ways which are against their own best interests, you will, like thegangofone and so many others these days, stamp your feet defiantly, and carry on regardless."

    Pointing out that there was a Holocaust and that your "statistical claims" are ludicrous is not defiance.

    Pointing out that genetic variation is greater within a race than between races and hence there is no scientific basis for you claims on race "realism" and eugenics is not defiance.

    Pointing out that Old Labour never had any connection to National Socialism and Churchill was hardly likely to have been a Nazi is not defiance.

    I could go on and on but basically the triumph of intelligence over stupidity is not defiance - its triumph.

    In the coming months you would hope that the flawed arguments and outright lies of the BNP will be exposed.

    For instance the Barnbrook murders that he cited - but they never happened and he cited them due to a combination of church bells and dyslexia.

    So far as I know this is the first case in history of church bells and dyslexia having that effect.

    Thank God he can't join the army and be exposed to loud bangs.

  • Comment number 38.

    #27 jaded_Jean

    "Behaviour is all about rates/frequencies and their outcomes, i.e consequences."

    You mean like Nuremburg? Even Nick Griffin acknowledges that they were a valid trial of the Holocaust architects.

  • Comment number 39.

    that quote of 'never so few have owed so much..' was previously posted on NN blogs some time ago?

    merv is right of course to say separation is prudent... er what happened to that word. but the financial oligarchy want to keep playing privatise the profit socialise the loss game and politicians speak for them not the people.e.g. I remember politicians justifying why it was right cleaners got taxed more than executives.

    if the politicians are the verbal front for the financial oligarchy what follows? That money will be printed until the oligarchs are 'safe', that regulation will be so byzantine that they miss their mark, that any true remedy [like mervs idea] will be talked down or linked to internationalism, that market fundamentalism will persist [privatisations, royal mail and other sell offs].

    All these methods are demonstrated time and again in the Lords Hansard on topics like lords reform, agriculture reform, open access reform. the idea being to delay it forever while the public sucks it and sees.

    and why does the public not see? who claim to be the 'eyes' of the public? The media. But they never saw the crash, they do not see the commodity exploitation of the british people, nor the irrationalities of the war on terror etc?

    given investigative journalism has been neutered and smothered by reporting press release no wonder its the blind leading the blind?

  • Comment number 40.

    #10 jaded_Jean


    "Is it because the British electorate is now so incredibly dumb, it can't spot economic anarchism "

    Those seeking answers about the best way to handle the BNP need not worry overmuch. As they get excited they will give away their true values and attitudes.

    Given the BNP are not National Socialists and for you anybody who was not a pure statist like the National Socialists or Stalinists are anarchists then the BNP themselves are anarchists.

    They only declare themselves to be nationalists and "modern and progressive". They say nothing about their genuine core philosophy.

    Old Labour presided over a mixed economy and clearly as they fought the Nazis in WWII were never in the same mould. The Tories had Churchill and according to Griffin he could have been in the BNP.

    The BNP are very confused.

    For my part as a humble Lib Dem voter I think people don't see "anarchism" because it does not exist but most people can spot wolves pretending to be sheep.

    Some have been fooled by the stolen symbology and the failure of the BNP to honestly define themselves but that isn't new.

    Just get them talking about the "internal political and economic threat" of Jewish citizens.

    The truth will out.

  • Comment number 41.

    Anybody read this http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8318010.stm

    I'm beginning to change my mind about mass immigration. Perhaps we ought to let everyone who wants to live here, just walk into Britain. It would all be over very quickly, instead of our slow decline. We would then be a third world country, fighting each other for space, no more benefits, no health care, the whole infrastrucure would crash. Perhaps we should stop worrying about it and let it happen. I think it's inevitable now. I wonder how the medja and the chattering classes would survive?! ; )

  • Comment number 42.

    yes nice to see steffi 'home' and gracious for J["not another chart steffi"]P to see the need to welcome financial literacy [because its so rare].

  • Comment number 43.

    Dennis Mcshane on the hack-o-meter: on a scale from one to ten...ten! he's up there with Jack Straw.



  • Comment number 44.

    JJ please may I ask you to stop writing to mim. I don't think she means any harm, she just finds it amusing and satisfying to write here. And if we believe in democracy she is free to blog here. I don't think for one minute she gets what you are going on about, it's not easy to understand you. You sound mean and spitefull to keep going on at her, and I don't think you're that. You try to explain the world as you see it, which is interesting and a good thing, but there's no point in upsetting mim, please. : ) I ignore gango, never read the posts, so please try to follow my example! ; )

  • Comment number 45.

    #32 jaded_Jean

    "Like a child, when reprimanded for behaving in ways which are against their own best interests"

    I neglected to inquire about the fate of those that oppose the "intellectual and social might" of the BNP - I was smirking when I wrote that.

    I gather it was black humour when the generals were warned by Griffin about the fate of Nazis at Nuremburg war crimes trials.

    So it won't be like the Spanish civil war and the slaughter of innocent civilians in WWII under WWII?

    What percentage of the UK population would you class as "anarchists" and were the Nazis wrong to shoot them in WWII?

    Don't both with an answer as you for instance try to rewrite history to show the Nazis and Stalinists were actually intellectually very close.

    In my view when you leave out the Nazi attitude that Slav's were racially inferior and sub-human and the twenty five million dead including women and children you lose something called "truth".

    Its not something that you can understand.

  • Comment number 46.

    On all women lists surely the problem can be addressed best by making sure that there are proportionate numbers of women in the constituency parties. If there are already appropriate proportions then the issue is not a prejudiced selection skew but the candidates coming forward.

    In that case the issue would be should the working hours and conditions that would attract more candidates.

  • Comment number 47.

    Apparently Hitler thought an intelligent man should take a stupid woman as a partner. But he was not himself intellectually blessed and so looked up to Geli Raubal.

    On many occasions.

  • Comment number 48.

    This is for my buddy go1:

    waiting for the Nick Griffin (BNP) question time session is a bit like this piece of music.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6yuR8efotI

    Its all in the cresendo. If you listen carefully you can hear a spitfire...piloted by a pole.

  • Comment number 49.

    #31 jaded_Jean

    "You are deluded, and like most deluded people, can't see how you are deluded."

    Delusion is not why you falsely claim Holocaust "agnosticism" or that "Hitler was a peace lover".

    There is total incoherence in your views, such as the lack of science behind your racial views, and outright cowardice when it comes to revealing your views.

    The far right has always been good at a few slogans and then relying on some indoctrinated yobs to beat up people of a different race. I am sure you would disagree?

    By the way you do still openly subscribe to the view that Jews are an "internal political and economic threat".

    They seem to be the only race you believe is driven by their genes when it comes to intellectual disposition.

    The Germans, for instance, are not driven to "statism" or National Socialism.

  • Comment number 50.

    #7 bookhimdano

    "back to the 4 billion a year 'war' within the uk it seems there is a row over the Preventing Violent Extremism (PVE) strategy? there doesn't seem to be an end game with that either? will it be a perpetual low level 'civil war'?"

    I gather the BNP-type solution would be a race war.

    I assume that is not your view?

  • Comment number 51.

    from mimpromptu
    Streetphotobeing

    I started off with African Vibrations
    And followed on with soulful sensations
    To do with the Moon and lofty expanse
    I almost felt as if in a trance
    Twirling and whirling expressing my soul
    And now I feel totally whole.

    More later
    mim

  • Comment number 52.

    ah what i did write was

    ...never in the field of human finance have so few destroyed so much for so many with so little blowback...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/fromthewebteam/2009/02/wednesday_25_february_2009.html#P

    what else could one use?

    ...we shall lend to them on the beaches, lend to them in the hills... we shall never stop printing money...

  • Comment number 53.

    ecolizzy (#44) I know you mean well, but trust me, mimpromptu's behaviours are neither innocent nor harmless. They are harmful/offensive to others and to herself. People's intentions are not what matters, i.e it is not what they mean to do which matters, it's what they do. Tolerance of these behaviours encourages them, which means it reinforces behaviours which are destructive to the person emitting them. This is a difficult point for many to grasp, but those who have to deal with these behaviours will understand that my posts are in fact benevolent. You are picking up on them vicariously. They are supposed to have an effect. That is the only way that behaviour ever changes. You should know that.

  • Comment number 54.

    Postscript (#53) Incidentally, you're confusing democracy with anarchism. In true democracy, people have duties to one another, which include socialisation. In liberal-democracy, individualism (anarchism) is encouraged. This is the problem that we are getting ourselves into deeper and deeper. To see true democracy at work have a look through the Chinese Democratic-Centralist consititution which is more social duty based than individual rights based (so is the modern Russian constitution if you look closely). Remember, a Cold War was fought between the balance of rights vs duties, the USA having the onus on anarchistic individual rights, and the USSR/PRC having the onus on social duty to others. This is still what a lot of the clash of civilizations is about, it has just morphed into the Liberal-Democracy vs Islamic clash which is really the Jewish vs Islam conflict with naive Westerners as footsoldiers as has always been the case in history (the Christain Church has been destroyed now it's Islam's turn and they aren't having it).

    Both minpromptu and thegangofone are examples of the extreme self-centredness which is typical of self-destructuive liberal-democracy. It is harmful to others. I am drawing attention to it in a small way.

  • Comment number 55.

    #36 from mimpromptu
    gangofone
    thank you
    you've found a good way of putting it

  • Comment number 56.

    #44 from mimpromptu
    ecolizzy

    thank you

    But, to be honest, I couldn't really care less what he writes. Whenever necessary I respond for the world to know the truth. And anyway, Lizzy, it's not what he says but what he gets up to that's the real problem and of which he is so proud, deranged as he is. Be careful just in case he decides to perform his exorcisms on yourself, unless you are into things like that.
    mim

  • Comment number 57.

    thegangofone (#49) Try to grasp that the whole issue of 'the holocaust' is used politically to a) shore up liberal-democracy against statism (it worked on the Germans after WWII, so try it elsewhere) and b) solicit sympathy/support for Israel in their battle against Arabs (at one time supported by the Soviet Union).

    The BNP is hammered today because it is seen as bad for the unregulated free-market, which in turn is bad for a) and b) etc. All of the anti-racism stuff is just a tool to confuse and cripple public bodies. True racism is very rare.

  • Comment number 58.

    from mimpromptu
    Streetphotobeing

    From the Noth of Africa I moved to the South
    With Miriam Makeba providing her might
    It is such a shame she died before time,
    Before I was twirling with her still alive.

    From Miriam I moved on to Nina Simone
    Doing it my way and turning me on.

    to be continued
    mim

  • Comment number 59.

    from mimpromptu

    I think I'll now skate to a few American folk tunes

  • Comment number 60.

    ecolizzy - There you go, you've reinforced the behaviour. We will now see even more of it, which is not in her best interests. People will not be told. The reason? See 'negative reinforcement', and see the state of the country. I'm not just explaining why this has happened, I'm showing you and others how we go about bringing it about and sustaining it in microcosm :-(

  • Comment number 61.

    from mimpromptu
    Streetphotobeing

    That was great, ice dancing to the American folk tunes!
    Followed by a Polish singer Aga singing about a tender rose abused by a wicked man and her rendition of 'Cohen' Susanne' which is about a woman touching a man's perfect mind by a river and finished by Jacques Brel's 'La quete'. I didn't seem to have upset anybody in particular because as I was leaving both the instructors and the other skaters gave me a smile, including a very beautiful young lady who is very good at ice-skating. I think she also does ballet.

    mim

  • Comment number 62.

    Yes JJ I do understand negative reinforcement, I've had children so understand the concept completely. And yes grudingly I would admit you are right! ;o) One of my previous questioning posts, elicited more postings didn't it?!

    I've had a thought about Mervyn King and his speech http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8317650.stm Why don't we go back to the wonderful concept of Building Societys to buy a home with, and I mean a home, not an "investment" property. Funny we seem to have sorted things out over the past years, and then along came money,money,money, and it all collapsed.

  • Comment number 63.

    Why do the Medja keep on about the amount of pensioners there will be in the country? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8318010.stm Why that angle, there's plenty more, like not enough houses, schools, hospital places, roads, librarys, water. Surely pensioners will have to learn to save money and keep themselves fit, instead of spending it all on rubbish when young. Are the Medja saying we must have more immigrants, that's how it appears to me, but then one day they'll all be pensioners too, so will need another few million to support them.

  • Comment number 64.

    ecolizzy (#62) "Yes JJ I do understand negative reinforcement, I've had children so understand the concept completely."

    The very elderly present a challenge there too. The ones that do OK are fiercely independent but get lonely as a consequence, so then try to get other people to do things or them, which, if successful, takes away the very independence which has been keeping them going. :-(

    It applies in many other contexts - there are lots of people who like to help offenders.... women usually. That can be extremely counter-productive. :-(

  • Comment number 65.

    ECOLIZZIE IS NOT AN HONEST ENQUIRER - SHE'S A VERY NAUGHTY GIRL!

    Another successful test Lizzie?

  • Comment number 66.

    #64 JJ you have now described my parents!!! ; )

    there are lots of people who like to help offenders.... women usually

    Yup that's me JJ, sorry!

  • Comment number 67.

    HAVING NOTHING BETTER TO DO . . .

    I wandered back up this thread and found post 57, wherein JJ gives some advice to Lizzie:

    "ecolizzy (#44) I know you mean well, but trust me, mimpromptu's behaviours are neither innocent nor harmless. They are harmful/offensive to others and to herself. PEOPLE'S INTENTIONS ARE NOT WHAT MATTERS, i.e it is not what they mean to do which matters, IT'S WHAT THEY DO. Tolerance of these behaviours encourages them, which means it reinforces behaviours which are destructive to the person emitting them. This is a difficult point for many to grasp, but those who have to deal with these behaviours will understand that my posts are in fact benevolent. You are picking up on them vicariously. They are supposed to have an effect. That is the only way that behaviour ever changes. You should know that."

    JJ - this would appear to define your credo? I hold a different view. Is there any possibility I am more right than you? Might we both be right/wrong like Schroedinger's cat?

    I suspect you are falling into the trap of seeing HomSap as an INDIVIDUAL. I am of the view that we have an animal 'vehicle' (with a set of sustainable imperatives and traits that - left to themselves - would move us to seek and maintain a relevant niche in the ecology of this planet. However, to my observation, we also have an incongruous cerebral function, courtesy of a large brain. Without going into how this situation might have arisen, I hold the view that our animal and our cerebral functions are inherantly incompatible.

    When enquiring the nature of light (as wave/particle) the 'interrogation' affects the answer. When we look for the nature of HomSap we can get results in cerebral or in animal terms, dependent on our approach. Should 'cerebral jaundice' cause us to espouse animal models, the paradox is as beautiful as it gets - but we are no nearer assuaging the angst of HomSap, or to entering the Promised Land.

 

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