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Monday 7 September 2009

Sarah McDermott | 17:37 UK time, Monday, 7 September 2009

"You have persisted in trying to humiliate us, kill us and destroy us. Sheikh Osama warned you many times to leave our lands or you will be destroyed, and now the time has come for you to be destroyed."

That was the chilling warning in a video prepared by Abdulla Ahmed Ali, one of three men convicted of attempted murder today by a jury at Woolwich Crown Court.

Along with Tanvir Hussain and Assad Sarwar, Ali plotted to kill thousands of people by blowing up planes over the Atlantic with home-made liquid bombs disguised as drinks. Four other men were found not guilty of involvement in the airline plot.

Tonight, Richard Watson will be reporting on the plot, the intelligence operation, the trial and perhaps most importantly, on whether such a plot could happen again.

Also tonight, Jerusalem correspondent Katya Adler reports on the rise of the military rabbis, who are changing the face of the Israeli army.

Once proudly secular, its combat units are now filling with those who believe Israel's wars are "God's wars". Read more about that story here.

And as Sir Terry Wogan announces that he is to step down as presenter of BBC Radio 2's breakfast show, we'll be asking Nick Ferrari and Matthew Bannister what Radio 2 is for now Wogan has gone.

Do join Gavin tonight at 10.30pm on BBC Two.

Comments

  • Comment number 1.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 2.

    IS IT DOWN TO INTENSIONS NOT GENES?

    President Obama is giving a major pep talk tomorrow. Can he fix a broken society with good intentions/rhetoric? Is it not more a matter of 'good breeding'?

  • Comment number 3.


    What is equally frightening as this planned attack is the fact that despite being shown the defendants’ suicide videos; undercover surveillance that showed the bomb makers preparing the bombs and finding bomb making equipment; suspect journeys that the defendants have made to Pakistan and emails exposing their communication with the plotters in Pakistan - that the verdict still wasn't unanimous.

    It seems that there are jurors who have deliberately and willfully ignored all the evidence that has been presented in these 2 separate (and extremely expensive) trials.

    Shouldn't this deeply sinister aspect receive far greater media attention and isn't it time that all (for all trials) jury deliberations be made public? This can easily done without identifying jurors then it will be fully transparent whether juries really are properly considering the evidence instead of (for whatever reason) just ignoring obvious facts?



  • Comment number 4.




    Quote .... get out of our lands. Unquote

    Quote ...or you will be destroyed, and now the time has come for you to be destroyed. Unquote

    Quote .... N....... Unquote Make your own word up, this quote didn't get past the profanity filter despite being used on C4 News. Hmm ....?


    Quote .... don’t mess with the muslims. Unquote

    All the above from convicted terrorists whom are described as British Muslim.

    Presumably prosecutions will now be undertaken with the intent of proving Race Hate crime?

    It will be interesting to compare the coverage of today’s prosecutions in tonight’s NN with the reporting broadcast in this evening’s C4 News.

    Will we get full, in depth, detailed and explicit exposés?

    Or will we get the crass ...

    “Some of our Viewers may find this report blah de blah blah!”

    ... indicating that it - the report - will be shallow, bland, repetitive and lacking ‘meat’?

    With all the new ‘talent’ sic being imported to the Corporation’s news service one cannot defend poor, and intentionally inoffensive, reporting on the basis of Q. There’s no money. UnQ unless of course all the money is being spent on said ‘new talent’ and there’s none left for anything else? Hmm ..?

    How many Woodwards and Bernsteins could be employed for the money paid to one or two of the Corporation’s Stars sic.

    Oh yes ....

    .... and Mr Wogan’s presumably well pensioned retirement got thirty seconds on the main C4 programme tonight.

    NN, Sir J, Lady Em .... the editorial team .....

    Step up to the plate ....

    For news sake!

    For the Fashionistas ....

    A Public Enquiry?

  • Comment number 5.

    #3
    "It seems that there are jurors who have deliberately and willfully ignored all the evidence that has been presented in these 2 separate (and extremely expensive) trials."

    I fully support your conclusion that jury deliberations be made public, with due safegards.

    However, there is another aspect which must be resolved - the extent to which previously sacred tenets of British justice need a rethink.
    'Innocent until proven guilty' has always stood as a basic principle and understandably. But this crime would have had horrific consequences if our security forces had not decided at the critical time that they had got sufficient evidence of 'intent' in order to obtain conviction.

    Giving the benefit of the doubt, in both senses, was the main reason why the first jury failed to convict - because there was insufficient evidence that the plot was to be put into effect, rather than the 'scare only' pleaded by the criminals and their legal representatives.

    Whilst we may continue to argue the niceties about how evidence is obtained, when dealing with terrorists (particularly those who place no value on the sanctity of life, of innocent people, or there own, we need to throw off our excessive British 'fairness' and convict more on the balance of probability.

    If this sounds 'unfair' and harsh justice, let's hear other views on how we can obtain convictions before suiicide-type mass murders are committed, not after the events.

    The cost of the trials of these previousy 'allegedly' aircraft bombers, together with the massive worldwide chaos to airline travel from their plot, justified very punitive sentences after the first trial, with safety of the public being given highest priority. Any appeal against a harsh sentence would then make the criminal consider whether a further trial might result in an even harsher sentence, and should also send out the right message to others.

  • Comment number 6.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 7.

    Sarah:

    Also tonight, Jerusalem correspondent Katya Adler reports on the rise of the military rabbis, who are changing the face of the Israeli army.

    I hope for the report of Katya Adler will be made available to
    the rest of the world....I am glad, that Military Rabbis are working on the image of Israeli Army....

    =Dennis Junior=

  • Comment number 8.

    And as Sir Terry Wogan announces that he is to step down as presenter of BBC Radio 2's breakfast show, we'll be asking Nick Ferrari and Matthew Bannister what Radio 2 is for now Wogan has gone.

    I am sadden by the news, that Terry Wogan will be leaving R-2 but, Radio 2 is going to make it thru the crisis....

    =Dennis Junior=

  • Comment number 9.

    bookhimdano (#6) They who paid the pipers... Although, all the coverage of the fund-raisers for Blair and Brown covered by NN seems so long ago now.

  • Comment number 10.

    Denis_junior (#7) "I am glad, that Military Rabbis are working on the image of Israeli Army...."
    I guess it depends how they do that, don't you think?

  • Comment number 11.

    Re: Putin in Poland and the truth about Katyn
    The plot thickens. Following an item in the Polish media I have previously quoted that: ‘Apparently, Poland, as partner to Nazi Germany, was keen to send the Jews to Madagascar. At least that’s what’s being claimed by the Russian Foreign Minister, Mr Sergei Lavrov in his new book. This (musical) score to World War II, entitled ‘Who and When Started the War?’ has been published in cooperation between a Russian committee, set up against manipulation of historical facts which might be detrimental to Russia, and the Russian President.’
    It all turns out to be untrue. In fact, it was suggested by JJ that the name Lavrov was a pseudonym for some Misha who was the true author of the book and not the Russian Foreign Minister. It turns out, however, that the Russian President, Mr Medvediev, who did set up a Russian Committee against manipulation of historical facts, has been critical of Mr Putin who was not ready to admit to the truth about Katyn during his visit to Westerplatte on 1 September.
    Mr Svanidze, the spokesman for the Committee, compared Mr Putin’s action to that of not washing one’s hands after leaving the loo. Quote: ‘Putin only said that a massacre had been committed in Katyn but had not mentioned by who. So, who committed it, Uncle Petia? Murder, well yes, but where are the murderers?’. According to Mr Svanidze,’ Mr Putin did not say what was most important’. It would have been enough for him to simply confirm the fact, which had been known and documented for a long time, that on 5 March 1940 the Politburo with Stalin at its helm signed the order to shoot the Polish Officers’. And so, he adds, it has been a lost opportunity to open a real dialogues with the Poles.
    Another commentator, Mr Kisielov, goes as far as calling Mr Putin’s games as a shameless play on the feelings of the Russian people by presenting criticism of Stalin as criticism of Russia itself’.
    So there we are, it looks like another ‘fascinating’ story by the action loving funny bunny, i.e. JJ. That’s why perhaps he feels that he can threaten who he wants being pals with people like Putin. In the long run, it is damaging, in fact, to all sides concerned.

  • Comment number 12.

    from mimpromptu again, as above
    I'm just wondering whether, by any chance, jj isn't 'helping' Sarah tonight with the programme and the script?

  • Comment number 13.

    mimpromptu (#11) "In fact, it was suggested by JJ that the name Lavrov was a pseudonym for some Misha who was the true author of the book and not the Russian Foreign Minister."

    I suggest you have another look at my post.

    Whilst doing so, I suggest you look up gavagai......

  • Comment number 14.

    from mimpromptu en plus
    I'm also wondering whether jj is pals with Gavin as well? I remember him saying that although he criticises the Jews he doesn't mind Gavin, who apparently has Jewish roots and that he prefers Gavin to Kirsty, never mind Jeremy.

  • Comment number 15.

    11 Poland, as partner to Nazi Germany,

    ?

    i thought poland was the only occupied country not to have a 'quisling'/'vichy' style govt but were directly ruled from Berlin via the viceroy system?

    i thought the soviets were narked off because they were defeated in the 1920 russio poland war and wanted to take 'revenge'?

  • Comment number 16.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 17.

    "And as Sir Terry Wogan announces that he is to step down as presenter of BBC Radio 2's breakfast show"

    Man I'm really going to miss Terry he's been company for me so many times in the morning on the way to work. He's a legend !!!

    Paul

  • Comment number 18.

    I'm sick and tired of hearing the "angst" of young British Muslims. I will NOT wring my hands in grief at the plight of those who flirt with terror.

  • Comment number 19.

    #15 from mimpromptu
    Well, bookhimdanoi, I'm not a historian but if you would like to know more, may I refer you to Viktor Suvorov?
    All I know is that Poland was invaded by Hitler, that the Poles tried to fight them right from the start, that Stalin also made claims to Poland having initially made a pact with Hitler, that the Soviets did oommit a massacre on at least 12 000 Polish Officers, among whom was my Grandma's Brother and whose life was a loss to not only the family but also to the people he treated as an ENT Specialist, frequently for nothing, that he was a pioneer in the treatment of cancer having cooperated with Marie Curie-Sklodowska /if not directly then at least by having access to the then newly discovered radium/ which in some ways was a loss to the humanity as a whole. It bothers me that there have been so many lies about the massacre, etc, but I'm happy now to hear that the Russian President, Mr Dmitri Medvediev, is prepared to finally make the truth come out and disclose the documents, which may in turn help in stabilising the Polish/Russian political, economic and cultural relations.
    I'm not expecting miracles, only sensible and rational co-operation, not only, in fact, between Poland and Russia, but also on the international scene as a whole. It may sound grand, I know, a claim like that on the part of some female who gets told off by jj at every possible occasion, but that is how I feel and reason, so there!

  • Comment number 20.

    the report on the Israeli army was an eye opener. You don't see honest details like that on TV often.
    More honest investigations on the Israeli military and the occupation of Palestine are needed to get a balance in the media.

  • Comment number 21.

    Armies have Chaplins/Priests/Imams etc, so what is wrong with having a Rabbi in the Israeli Army? As Katya pointed out in her film, the soldiers follow military orders.Surely, isn't having a Rabbi/Priest etc like having a religious cheerleader who peps up the troops?

    As for Terry Wogan - who cares? Radio 2 is boring enough ( I don't knwo anyone who listens to it), and it's just another boring DJ, and I prefer Graham Norton on the cheesy Eurovision too :p

  • Comment number 22.

    DAVID VS GOLIATH OR ...THE CLEVER BULLY?

    For once, tonight, we had the two protagonists back to back. But who are the 'unscrupulous recruiters' of disaffected UK Muslims (and similar ones no doubt in the USA)? There are 1.4 billion Muslims in the world to about 14 million Jews, most of which are split between Israel and USA (NY, California and Florida mainly). When the USA and UK media talks of 'us' being threatened by Muslim terrorists, who comprises the 'us'?

    The faction of the Jewish world community in the USA amounts to about 2% of the USA's population, and in the UK, about half a percent. Yet the media talks of 'we' as the target. At the same time, bear in mind mass immigration and demographic change on both sides of the Atlantic. This is all primarily to Israel's advantage, is it not?

    At the same time that the second trial of the foiled 'drinks bombers' is broadcast, the press also reports that Israel has given the go ahead for more (illegal?) settlements on the West Bank....

    Who's recruiting who to fire whose 'bullets'?

  • Comment number 23.

    Also wanted to mention Richard's report on the British Muslim terrorists was excellent.

  • Comment number 24.

  • Comment number 25.

    "ONCE IT IS HOLY WAR, THERE ARE NO LIMITS."

    1 Samuel 15:3 "Go and attack the Amalekites! Destroy them and all their possessions. Don't have any pity. Kill their men, women, and children, and even their babies. Slaughter their cattle, sheep, camels and donkeys."

    That Jehovah eh? What is he like!

  • Comment number 26.

    Last time I looked, soldiers (of any or no religious persuasion) were meant to fight and kill people. Isn't the whole point of a war to defeat the enemy?

  • Comment number 27.

    #21 from mimpromptu
    Mistress76uk
    We are in disagreement on Graham Norton on the cheesy Eurovision too :p
    - too much hysteria, too much 'funniness' to my liking from the drama 'queen'

  • Comment number 28.

    TAKING NO PRISONERS (#26)

    I think you might be confusing warfare with a Paxman interview 76.

  • Comment number 29.

    Beat Islamic radicalism/terrorism with radical actions: Ban Islam. Before we discuss such a proposal you need to know that Moderate Islam does not exist, so don't waste anymore valuble time on that particular lie.
    Ethics, Religion and Warfare...sounds familiar doesn't it..always seem to go hand in hand, yeah!? well beware the man who says God spoke to him as the last thing we need right now is another religion to contend with, we already have our hands full with the big 3 ( make that 2 on account christians have finally spotted theirs as a crock of nonsense - one down two to go) anyhow, Since Islam is clearly malevolent to westeners, it needs to be banished from Europe...strong sentiment and shared by many..end of chat.

    P:S you don't need a third eye to know where this is gonna lead or that the earths magnetic polarity is changing..or that Gordan ain't gonna make it to the next election...that last one's not a guaranteed cert.. but the first two, yep.

  • Comment number 30.

    Mistress: I thought you was smarter than that; Graham Norton..Wow!...really!

  • Comment number 31.

  • Comment number 32.

    #31 from mimpromptu
    oh, general, pretty grim stuff!
    I wouldn't like to live like that, would you?
    In the middle of destruction with no one else to talk to, no ice rinks, no smiling children pulling funny faces? No Newsnight or University Challenge to watch?

  • Comment number 33.

    Shock horror, Israel has Rabbis in its army !!, I did a quick check against other countries armies and guess what?, they all have religious leaders in there armies !. A typical BBC attempt to get a dig in at the Israelis after being forced to report on yet another Muslim terror plot aimed at innocent people.

    Pathetic.

  • Comment number 34.

    Mistress76uk (#26) "Last time I looked, soldiers (of any or no religious persuasion) were meant to fight and kill people. Isn't the whole point of a war to defeat the enemy?"

    What makes someone (or some group) an enemy? Is it just someone (or some group) which has something which one wants but which they won't give one? When is war just and when is it just criminal behaviour?

    Food for thought: who was Madoff's 'enemy'?

  • Comment number 35.

    @ Mim & The Cookieducker - I just find Terry Wogan boring. He's just not my thing.

    @ JadedJean - I thought Madoff ripped everyone (of all religious persuasions) off with his Ponzi scheme. He was a thief on a global scale.

  • Comment number 36.

    PHILOSOPHICAL THOUGHT WILL KILL YOU - DOGMA ROBS YOU OF A LIFE

    Under the influence of philosophical thought, you die before you can work out which religion is right - who has right on their side, in a 'just war' - and whether Tony is The Messiah, or just a very naughty boy.

    Does technological obsession go hand-in-hand with monotheism? How did the Far East espouse philosophies, while we got stuffed by dogma?
    JJ - is it to do with pictorial writing and a larger cerebellum?

    Use both sides of Cyberspace for your answer.

  • Comment number 37.

    ACTIONS NOT INTENTIONS

    Mistress76uk (#35) "@ JadedJean - I thought Madoff ripped everyone (of all religious persuasions) off with his Ponzi scheme. He was a thief on a global scale."

    No. It's a case of numbers. In a Ponzi Scheme, the early investors can often do quite well at the expense of later investors. If you look closely at how the Madoff scme worked it was by invitation only. Many of the initial feeder funds were Jewish groups. What one has to bear in mind is the losses and the gains over the entire span of the scheme which began in the 80s. A feeder fund may have invested 40 million in 1989, but taken out 130 million over teh course of the scheme, and tnen lost say the 40 million. One has to be careful when talking about losses too. One also has to bear in mind the early vs late investor group size. In the USA, the Jewish community comprises about 2% of the population, so many of the larger, later, domestic and international based feeder fund investors were in effect have been paying the early (largely Jewish?) investors, and statistically these later investors would highly probably have more non Jewish given that 98% of the USA poplation alone is non-Jewish. A Ponzi Scheme is thus a very good scheme for a small, tightly knit, group to benefit at the expense of much larger group it has settled amidst. See the BBC programme a few months ago about the nature of the Madoff feeder funds.

    This is worth a look too. There's a lot of fund raising on hehalf of Israel's interests by USA Jews, understandably, it's their extended family and it's a highly endogamous group. This does not mean that the beneficiaries knew they were benefiting this way (if indeed they were). But the law doesn't care whether they knew or not (although there is a 7 year statute of limitations). There are now actions which are seeking to recover some of those long term profits on behalf of those who lost lots as later investors. There will, no doubt be a lot of forensic accounting and litigation. Look up 'madoff feeder funds'.

  • Comment number 38.

    barrie (#36) "JJ - is it to do with pictorial writing and a larger cerebellum?"

    cerebellum = little brain - (like a small cabbage sticking out of the brain stem), it seems more to do with coordination etc even rats have these. Maybe you are thinking of the neocortex and the cerebrum? This is responsible for higher sensory functions (detailed vision, hearing etc) and coordination with fine motor movement via the extrapyramidal motor system and basal ganglia (neo-striatum which goes wrong in Parkinson's Disease - low dopamine amongst other problems). So, no doubt you're on the right track there. I think it is helpful to think of our being able to behave more elaborately in space and time relative to oter mammals especially, because of our more developed neocortex and thalamus/basal ganglia.

    I am a bit wary of a group which proscribes physical imagery.....('thou shall not make no graven image'). It's worth looking into, re art, and which sex dominates verbally over spatial.

  • Comment number 39.

    #36 from mimpromptu
    Mr Singleton
    Personally, I find philosophy refreshing, reassuring and liberating. Having never set out to look for a final solution but rather browsing through so many possibilites of interpration of human thought and human existence, or whatever else it entails, I've learned to accept and respect the richness, diversity and relativity of human perception. Besides, as a child, I received very good training on the subject being surrounded by quite a few very loving but strong personalities of sometimes diametrically opposed characters.
    Having in the end consciously arrived at the realisation of the impossibility of dogmatic judgements may have, in fact, stimulated those parts of my brain and soul /whatever it is/ which are responsible for my sense of the absurd, nonsense and relative ease of switching from serious to funny, from pure to kitsch, etc, without fear of losing my identity in all its complexity. We are all complex, anyway, but perhaps not enough people have the opportunity to explore enough sides of their personalities and thus going through life full of prejudices, assumptions and dogmas.
    As a consequence of the above, I couldn't agree with you more about dogma robbing one of one's life.

  • Comment number 40.

    PREVALENCE

    "1 Samuel 15:3 "Go and attack the Amalekites! Destroy them and all their possessions. Don't have any pity. Kill their men, women, and children, and even their babies. Slaughter their cattle, sheep, camels and donkeys." That Jehovah eh? What is he like!"

    Do you see what I mean about Narcissistc Personality Disorder and other Clutsre B PDs (APD especially which it shares half its statistical factor structure with?)? It has nearly all the elements (see DSM-IV, Axis II, Clustrer B): Grandiosity, specialness, entitlement, lack of empathy, seeing oneself as centre of the universe (like an infants/adolescents), omnipotent etc. It's basically a self-esteem/identity problem. It is most likely genetic (high inbreeding?)

    If one writes a book and makes sure some of it is just oral tradition, one can have a rationale for whatever one wants in life given God's law for his chosen people. As I see it, this is classic Axis II, Cluster B and it's surely got to be largely genetic. It's also got to be just a higher prevalence thing, as some(x)= not((all),x) i.e. so it's unfair/unjust to tar all with the same brush as one will find the same behaviours in other groups, albeit perhaps at a lower prevalence? But if this is correct, one must also bear in mind that this is also a very small group (14m) in the first place compared to out-groups (6,0000m), so it is very important not to put too much weight on this group alone if it is just a prevalence issue.

  • Comment number 41.

  • Comment number 42.

    THE OLD DELAYED PROPHESY PLOY (#40)

    Ho JJ! I am particularly fond of biblical prophesies that come true - and THEN get written down.

    Mind you, that prophesy in 'Life of Brian' (about a man finding another man's hammer around 8 o'clock) THAT IS TRUE; but only revealed to followers of the Holy Gourd schism-group.

  • Comment number 43.

    the bogus narrative mutates

    now its to be seen as a regional war? to include pakistan and...iran?...somalia?

    Holy Wars

    the mask slips?

  • Comment number 44.

    #40 jaded_Jean

    "Do you see what I mean about Narcissistc Personality Disorder and other Clutsre B PDs (APD especially which it shares half its statistical factor structure with?)? It has nearly all the elements (see DSM-IV, Axis II, Clustrer B): Grandiosity, specialness, entitlement, lack of empathy, seeing oneself as centre of the universe (like an infants/adolescents), omnipotent etc. It's basically a self-esteem/identity problem. It is most likely genetic (high inbreeding?)"

    For those that don't understand what Jaded_Jean is about:

    1. This is somebody who reveres Hitler and would like to see National Socialism replace democracy and Nazi Germany rehabilitated (from previous threads). Hitler proposed the Heck cow as a symbol of racial purity.

    2. This is somebody whose "statistics" have been used to suggest that there could have not been a Holocaust. Moreover these "statistics" are so powerful that Jaded_Jean is "agnostic" on the Holocaust and does not see the need to provide them to say the alleged Nazi war criminal Djemjanjuk trial.

    3. Is there any major university that backs the "science" behind Jaded_Jeans race "realism" and eugenics? No. Probably that is because scientists know that genetic variation is greater within a race than between races and most of the variattion is taken up with cosmetic adaptations.

    4. "Grandiosity, specialness, entitlement, lack of empathy, seeing oneself as centre of the universe (like an infants/adolescents), omnipotent etc. " This is almost funny when you think of the Nuremburg rallies; the tyranny of Hitler and his psychological issues (mother-> Geli Raubal etc); the cold blooded murder of millions and so on.

    But make no mistake these people are not funny.

  • Comment number 45.

    GeneralMidwinter (#31;#41) Animal group ('family') competition is not generally intentional or 'conscious'. One can generally only see it through observing behavioural outcomes, where groups are initially assumed to be equal, but show, by their behaviour, that they are not so by significant observed departures from marginal expectancies (e.g via Chi Squared). Obfuscation/camouflage/deception is a common biological strategy.

  • Comment number 46.

    #38 Jaded_Jean

    "I am a bit wary of a group which proscribes physical imagery.....('thou shall not make no graven image'). "

    Its funny how a reference like that came from you!

    I would think most Jews, Roma, democrats and those nations that were occupied by the Nazis would be quite wary of those who revere Hitler and want National Socialism really. Especially those that are "agnostic" on the Holocaust.

    As with so much that you say there is an enthusiastic smoke screen that never quite covers the fact that there is no substance whatever to your views.

    Is there a "Jewish Communist International" running the world? No.

    Do scientific establishments endorse your ludicrous pronouncements on science? No.


  • Comment number 47.

    #11 mimpromptu

    "So there we are, it looks like another ‘fascinating’ story by the action loving funny bunny, i.e. JJ. That’s why perhaps he feels that he can threaten who he wants being pals with people like Putin."

    Got to disagree with you here as Putin has described the Nazis as evil.

    Jaded_Jean may claim that Stalinists and Nazis had a lot in common - but thats primarily due to an ideological inferiority complex and the fact that the far right posters on here are fishing for the disillusioned old Labour vote.

    In fact I suspect many that voted BNP in the Euro elections were older people who were sucked in by the images of Churchill and Spitfires used on the literature.

    If Jaded_Jean went to Russia there would be some young neo-Nazis as Newsnight showed the other night. But I would have also thought that there would be those who lost entire families amongst the circa twenty five million killed in the war who take a very dim view of Nazis.

    I am no fan of Stalin by the way as he killed more innocents than Hitler and was but a tyrant.

    But some will follow any tangential ideological movement and will be enthused by death as a measure of ideological success.

  • Comment number 48.

    #29 thecookieducker

    "Beat Islamic radicalism/terrorism with radical actions: Ban Islam. Before we discuss such a proposal you need to know that Moderate Islam does not exist, so don't waste anymore valuble time on that particular lie."

    Hmm, don't you think the BNP are a good "indigenous" political party?

    So it wouldn't just be Islam that went but democracy, liberty, freedom of speech etc etc.

  • Comment number 49.

    #2 Jaded_Jean

    "President Obama is giving a major pep talk tomorrow. Can he fix a broken society with good intentions/rhetoric? Is it not more a matter of 'good breeding'?"

    You race "realism" - no! Genetic variation is greater within a race than between races and so "good breeding" in racial terms is non-scientific junk.

    Do you have good intentions? No.

    Do you have rhetoric? Maybe - but usually mixed with a healthy dose of lies such as Holocaust "agnosticism".

    It's always a propaganda smoke screen with you and you never put up hard evidence - unless somebody is fool enough to believe your "internet statistics".

  • Comment number 50.

    #33 Rustigjongens

    "I did a quick check against other countries armies and guess what?, they all have religious leaders in there armies !"

    But they don't lead from the front and put out leaflets. I thought the piece was very good and interesting. Holy wars are OUT in my world.

    Sadly given the nature of some of the far right posters who pollute this page I have to add that I do NOT belong to that crackpot army.

  • Comment number 51.

    Wogan is a great broadcaster and the debate on his successor Chris Evans was heated - but was it worth the time.

    Mexico hardly gets reported on and that is a very big deal if the state does not win in the battle with the cartels.

    But I suppose you can't have every item on a major topic.

  • Comment number 52.

    On the Plane Bombers I know we can't know every detail but could there not be consistency on who gets praise?

    MI5 and the police (and army?) did a great job and everybody is thankful for that.

    But if the High Commissioner of Pakistan has suggested the tip off came from them then we should take the opportunity to thank them and and encourage them in their war with the Talibs.

    Its graceless not to acknowledge it if the balance of probabilities is the bombing would have succeeded without their input.

  • Comment number 53.

    The two main NN issues - of islamic terrorists and military rabbis - share a common theme, that worldwide conflicts are now primarily about religious beliefs. I spent yesterday at Imperial War Museum, truly a museum of past conflicts when imperial aims were the predominant cause of wars. Now it is beliefs, radical and unprovable; yet still given higher sanctity and credibility than common sense and common purpose for mankind.

    Whilst a great deal of intellectual NN posting has resulted on the rights and wrongs of using a mythical god as motivation and justification for people to kill each other, it must now be time for a more radical rethink of the tolerance, reverence and protection that this government continues to allow for religious beliefs, however harmful for our society.

    The GBP are getting quite vocal, even radicalised, against this situation (eg #25,33) but Auntie BBC in covering the Islamic terrorist case asks, in their 'Have Your Say' only the non-controversial question:
    "Is it time to relax the restrictions of what can be taken onboard when flying?" - adding that any wider comment would be deleted!
    Despite the gagging order the highest 'recommended' score by posters was:

    "As long as we have sickos prepared to kill people on aeroplanes in any way possible, then never! Having watched 102 minutes that changed America last night on C4 brought it all home again as to why security should never be compromised. That's the reality and we had better get used to it. The meltdown of British society under NuLabour's multicultural PC madness, United Kingdom"

    Attempts to use moderate Islamics have failed to rid us of the hundreds of terrorist cells that we are told still exist in our society, so what else is there that can be done? If my proposal for National Service (Civil Tasks) as a means of flushing out those who do not have allegiance to this country is too radical, what else is there other than #29 above proposes?

    At the very least we should require a rejection of the jihad concepts, martyrdom and other non-integration hatreds that many interpret as an overt requirement of the islamic faith, though other scholars deny this.
    Instead of the pucilanimous Britishness Ceremony that is meaningless, we should require a formal denial of these beliefs, sworn on the appropriate book. We should also embark on vital public announcements, replacing the obsession that radicalisation spreads about UK foreign policies 'killing of our brothers', with factual data on the numbers of moslems killed by moslems in the internecine dispute between the various moslem sub-groups.

    This, if nothing else, seems to be an unreconcilable difference in a religion that no amount of UK troops and armaments will ever resolve so we should hand over control and pull out.

  • Comment number 54.

    bookhimdano (#43) "the mask slips?"

    Yes. The Newsnight team did quite a good balanced piece last night, I thought. Maybe there's hope yet?

  • Comment number 55.


  • Comment number 56.

    On lewington:
    'During the trial, Lewington was described as a loner who had been unemployed for 10 years after losing his last job owing to drunkenness, and who had also not spoken to his father for a decade.

    The court heard he spent time searching for girlfriends on chatlines, where he made racist remarks and spoke of converting tennis balls into bombs. '


    I suppose the tennis balls mean he was not interested in a Bologna train station-style bombing (far right terrorists that were never caught I believe)?

    So he definitely was not interested in children? After the Baby P batterer and the previous would be nail bomber/paedophile jailed a year or so ago I wondered if there was a wave of people indoctrinated into the far right before or after paedophilia.

    I am still interested in whether the Baby P batterer and the ex-National Front brother were indoctrinated by an individual/paedophile who helped make them the monsters that they became.

    Similarly the backgrounds of the teenagers in Belfast induced to attack Roma could be of interest.

    Such nice people on the far right.


  • Comment number 57.

  • Comment number 58.

    #53 indignantindegene

    "Despite the gagging order the highest 'recommended' score by posters was:

    "As long as we have sickos prepared to kill people on aeroplanes in any way possible, then never! Having watched 102 minutes that changed America last night on C4 brought it all home again as to why security should never be compromised. That's the reality and we had better get used to it. The meltdown of British society under NuLabour's multicultural PC madness, United Kingdom"'

    ----------------------------------------

    The Lewington bomber report passed you by and the fact that a far right racist was arrested in the North East with ricin escapes you? The Baby P batterer and child rapist who revered Hitler? The Twickenham Green murderer who revered Hitler? The would be nail bomber and paedophile of a year or two back and the gay pub nail bomber of some years back?

    As for your assertion that it was the highest scoring post could that be because some far right group organised it?

    The kind of lies that fit this bill are the "fact" that "the BNP website gets more hits than all of the other parties put together".

    Yet their electoral situation shows that is twaddle.


  • Comment number 59.

    FAMILY CONFLICT: THE SONS OF ABRAHAM (ISHMAIL AND ISSAC)

    indignantindegene (#53) "What else is there other than #29 above proposes?"

    How about US and UK/EU neutrality over the Jewish-Muslim conflict? The religious cover may recruit some Christian Fundamentalists in the USA, but I don't think it's more than a clever subterfuge. After all, Christanity was a Jewish invention. It's a recruitiment/colonization tool.

    Instead of 98% of the USA population effectvely supporting the polical and economics interests of under 2% of its population which has allegiance to Israel, and the 99.5% of the UK population (with some violent Muslim dissenters and even some dissenting British Jews) being roped in to fight battles for Israel, why not stary out of it?

    Instead of a religious war, I suggest this is really far more mundane. It's competition for economic resources. One group (teh Muslim world) used to be supported by the statist USSR (which had Muslim republics in Central/West Asia) and the other (Israel) was suppored by the anarchistic USA/EU. In Israel-Palestine the battle is for territory. Elsewhere, it's the old battle for the economy - Command Economy vs Economic anarchism. Islam proscribes usury. Old labour was too Command Economy for the USA and those still disporportinately 'controlling' it's economy/media.

    Germany tried to stand outside all of this in the 1930s. Didn't work. :-(

  • Comment number 60.

    LIFE AND DEATH - KILLING AND PRESERVING - COCKEYED HOMSAP

    IDG2, at #53, quotes a reference 'sickos' who have a reason to kill a certain set of people they have defined. But what of the set of people, in Britain today, who live empty lives but are not ALLOWED to die? What sort of sickos are we? And then there are all the Iraqi civilians, yet another set, denied even 'Shock and Awe' because they died (that we might live?) without warning, under a rain of (cowardly) cruise missiles. Sickos - us? Don't get me started on pro choice/life.

    I refer honourable posters to mine at #36.

  • Comment number 61.

    HELLS BELLS JADED JEAN - HAVE YOU GONE ROGUE? (#59)

    "After all, Christanity was a Jewish invention."

    Personally, I am persuaded that Christianity probably arose out of Gnosticism, judging by its imagery and terminology. A Gnostic picture painted on a canvas of Jewish weave, will be shot through with signs of the latter, but the picture, itself, will be as intended - very different.
    It is that difference that gives us a male church with a female mother to its godhead; revered and appealed-to for intercedence IN HER OWN RIGHT.

    Oh dear. No wonder the Arch of Cant hides in those whiskers.

  • Comment number 62.

    NOT A SILLY QUESTION BUT A SCARY SCHEME (#57)

    Hi Mlle. H. Sealing a small hole on the bottle would be feasible with modern adhesives, but then putting the bottle in your bag and hoping it doesn't leak, is daunting. I have worked with Hydrogen Peroxide. In its strongest form, it can combust organics, and on the skin causes a weird popping sensation with instant white skin that smells of roast Pork! The re-sealed holes would probably be detectable, under close scrutiny, but who was going to look that hard? It was very clever in that respect.

  • Comment number 63.

    barrie (#61) As I understood it, Jesus was a Jewish dissident (as were most of his disciples). As a martyr he helped bring down the Roman empire with all that equality/libertarian lark. Jews have their dissidents today too (although few are quite so prone to the magical/messianic thinking as Jesus). If one looks closely, he was a bit of a grass-roots workers democrat, so not too far from at least one of our recent Neocons who you frequently remark upon in these pages. Like all these types, Neocons can get a bit muddled in their policies once 'captured' by the Chosen Ones Pipers and tunes I guess? ;-)

  • Comment number 64.

    Thanks to # 9...For my mistake and error; Please accept my apologies...
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    For the clarify my original comments: I think that the Israeli Army has the right and duty to inform about religious affairs to others...

    =Dennis Junior=

  • Comment number 65.

    #57 Madam M

    It was said they used a hypodermic syringe. The fine ones are very fine. Not having experimented, but a hole that small would to a certain degree self seal as the plastic returned to its original position. Would depend on the material (type of plastic) how much 'adhesive help' would be required.

    (former metallurgist and material scientist)

  • Comment number 66.

    #62 #65

 

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