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Friday 11 September 2009

Sarah McDermott | 16:56 UK time, Friday, 11 September 2009

Here are details of what's coming up in a star-studded Newsnight and Newsnight Review this evening:

"Nice to see you, to see you nice!"

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Tonight we have an interview with Mr Saturday night himself - Bruce Forsyth. The Strictly Come Dancing host will be talking about "event television" programmes, stars' pay and the future of the BBC with Gavin Esler.

Also tonight, under new rules confirmed by the Home Office today parents who regularly drive children for sports or social clubs will have to be vetted and registered, or face a fine of up to £5,000. They are the latest measure aimed at child safety following the murder of two 10-year-old girls by school caretaker Ian Huntley in Soham. The rules will come into force from next month in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. A separate, but aligned scheme, is being set up in Scotland, to be introduced next year.

Shadow Home Secretary Chris Grayling was scathing in his assessment of the move, saying: "Of course we have to check out those people who have jobs working with children, but the idea that we would vet eleven million parents is complete nonsense."

Child protection minister Baroness Morgan, said the new scheme was "a proportionate, common-sense system". Tonight we will be asking who is right. Is this a necessary response to the threat posed by paedophiles or has the government most perspective?

Join Gavin at 10.30pm.

And at 11pm on Review:

It is the single most explosive idea in history. Darwin's Theory of Evolution is almost as controversial today in some places as it was 150 years ago. We have an amazing panel to discuss the cultural legacy of On the Origin of Species in the light of a wealth of new artistic work - Richard Dawkins, whose new book champions evolutionary theory in the face of creationism, Margaret Atwood whose latest novel deals with the consequences of modern science, Ruth Padel who is a descendant of Darwin and bases many of her poems on his life and work, and one of our regular guests Reverend Richard Coles - who has been devouring Darwin all week with gusto.

We will be discussing Darwin's work, his home life through a new film, Creation, and his cultural impact - then and now - through two exhibitions.

And we'll also hear from Kevin Spacey and Trevor Nunn about an Old Vic production about Darwin.

Do join us later,

Martha

Comments

  • Comment number 1.

    ABERRATION AND THE CAUSES OF ABERRATION.

    I despair of governance in this country. We have more sayings, about 'prevention rather than cure', than you can shake a Victorian stick at. But sill they fail to realise ROOT prevention is intended. If 1 in 4 is going to end up CRB-checked, why not 'do' us all, and take DNA at birth? ALTERNATIVELY, take a hard look at why we are the Bonkers-Capital of Europe. Child molestation and abuse, is but one small manifestation of a mad country, driven mad by damaging policies from coupling - right through a now-extended life - to toppling.

    MPs seem to have little comprehension of human functionality - particularly their own. They apply no emotional intelligence to governance, and a glance at 'who is topp' tells all you need to know of their judgement of character.

    Carry on weeping Britain.

  • Comment number 2.

    CELEBRITISHISM = NARCISSISM

    "Here are details of what's coming up in a star-studded Newsnight and Newsnight Review this evening"

    Couldn't you get Katie Price?

  • Comment number 3.

    Another "theme-led" Newsnight Review. Yes, Darwinism is all very important and interesting, and there is an anniversary to celebrate, but we've had a flood of Darwin-related programmes on the BBC in recent months. This menu of this programme looks like a televisual equivalent of Start the Week - panellists plugging their new books. And why the ubiquitous Richard Coles yet again? He's a sort of clerical Hardeep Singh Kholi of old, popping up all over the place in a promiscuous kind of way. (Is that what they mean by a media tart?) Please let's have some of the Newsnight Reviews of old; a lively roundup of what's new in the arts and a good way of rounding off the week.

  • Comment number 4.

    FROM THE RIDICULOUS(foolish)TO THE SUBLIME(wonder or reverence)

    Can Gavin spend as little time as possible on the two ridiculous items ('Mr Saturday Night himself' and Child Protection 'Nanny' Morgan)so that more time is available for a serious discussion on Darwin's Evolution of Species (nothing to do with Katie Price, or perhaps it is?).

  • Comment number 5.

    Newsnight with Newsnight Review is gravitating towards becoming an upmarket Hello_cum_Vanity Fair. Why doesn't Newsnight Review review the week's news and Newsnight's coverage of it?

  • Comment number 6.

    #4 addendum. On a more serious aspect, I suspect this proposed extention of the CRB check is another desperate tax-raising initiative.

    My wife has been a Carer for almost 20 years with a well-documented record of caregiving at Nursing Homes and private residences, yet every change of job requires application for a new CRB; with a 3-4 week delay and a £53 fee each time. Baroness 'Nanny' Morgan's "proportionate common-sense system" should be a nice little earner.
    (£53 x 11 million 'suspects')

  • Comment number 7.

    Child protection minister Baroness Morgan, said the new scheme was "a proportionate, common-sense system".

    Uh-huh. If you say so, missus. What, precisely, don't you have to have upstairs to get to be one of these proliferating Baronesses these days?

    Barry, I share your sense of despair. They are even giving up on any attempt at rationality.

    One thing I am still unclear on is when the thing doesn't or doesn't cost money. Or is this new fine based on a free check? And which side of the border with Scotland? And as a half Scot, will there be police check in Gretna Green now to make sure you have ze appropriate documents if you look like you might be transporting the wrong kind of kids one day? Can I claim haggis immunity if 'caught' down sarf with a wee Glaswegian cuzzy and his chum?

    And with the experiences of a relative who has a paid for CRB professionally, I cannot see how this 'check' is in any way thorough or enduring, and hence is little more than a money making, jobsworth-creating box tick exercise. See what allowed Ian Huntley 'through'. Another apt metaphor for today.

    A few years back a few Darwin award winners dumped their kid off to the Cubs, despite it not meeting that night.

    So I see this kid sitting, on his own, on a lonely strip, where he'd have been for a few hours.

    He didn't know his telephone number or address, so I had to drive him around until he saw his house. Typically ungrateful parents.

    Now I would either leave him there or, just maybe call our mighty, responsive police force.

    Nice state to be in. Not.

    Then I saw Baroness Morgan being interviewed this morning.

    She does not have a clue. A true ninny nanny from Gordon's GOAT herd.

    And the notion that a serious law, with hefty consequences, may or may not apply, here but not there, sometimes, is a farce.

    With the fact that at some magical point of regularity of contact with children a paedophile 'activates' is plain daft.

    It's on a par with thinking such individuals don't know how to take a bus to prey elsewhere with the various area 'lists' also announced as 'solutions'.

    It is either all or nothing or is meaningless as 'protection', though it is obvious that shuffling paper offers little enough of that.

    http://www.dailyexpress.co.uk/posts/view/126475

    Labour’s Britain was exposed yesterday by the revelation that thousands of criminals, including rapists and paedophiles, were let off by police.

    Another facile fudge from a spin-obsessed Government of no talents.

    And their response to serious questions? The woman actually said on SKY: 'I don't want to get into that' when the going drifted into areas she didn't fancy. As they tend to do with this lot. Often.

    Why come on then? We need honesty from these people; not insults to our intelligence.

    Or daft rules from jobsworths I would not rely on to run a bath.

    I hope if she does grace the programme with the best shots of the day she has managed so far, that she gets dissected surgically. Especially if she tries the 'If you are not 'guilty' why are you worried?' Er... because getting on the radar of the likes of you, especially if it costs too, is a world of paperwork extra some of us don't really need, or get paid to shuffle on the public purse... unlike too darn many.

    At least I have an excuse not to help out with the car pool now. It was a ton of time and expense before. Now we can just blame the nanny state and head for the pub. The boys seem Ok with the Xbox more anyway.

    Yes, Barry, another tirade I fear. But until I get my day in the voting booth, I need an outlet.

  • Comment number 8.

    #24
    jj
    If you refuse to accept what I say, then it means that you are full of yourself and that you must consider yourself as a very atractive male. Well, I can't stop you from deluding yourself.
    P.S. Are you into identifying yourself with your namesakes by any chance?

  • Comment number 9.

    What a great line-up - Brucie and Darwin. Fantastic!
    We all know who's won the ratings war tonight.

  • Comment number 10.

    Why does the BBC feel the need to enter a surreal ratings contest when it is a public broadcaster?

    Why is even NN roped into the publicity machine surrounding the BBC's dancing competition?

    Why has it taken so long to come up with a scheme to attempt to prevent another Soham? And why is the scheme yet again placing the burden of proof onto ordinary citizens rather than the police?

    Highlight of the evening; Martha's back, and, with a bit of luck, in her military jacket outfit.

  • Comment number 11.

    In 1990 I sought advice from an up and coming lawyer who is now an extremely well thought of barrister, on the implications of the then about to be introduced Food Safety Act.

    His advice was prescient; "the only defence is mitigation, guilt is presumed, innocence must be proved by the accused and that is the way English law is moving, because quite frankly it is easier for the police and the judiciary."

    "If you've done nothing wrong you've got nothing to fear" is the obverse of "guilty until proven innocent".

    I'm off to Crete for good. Sherefe.

  • Comment number 12.

    **********************************************************************

    I'm glad you're touching upon the issue of Vetting tonight. If you can get a Government rep in the studio tonight could you ask them whether vetting should apply to those at the top of Government ie the Prime Minister as well as to the rest of us?

    As far as I am aware, Prime Ministers have being exempted from the same thorough ongoing secure checks and monitoring that have been considered necessary for some time for many other senior figures in public life,

    What would happen if say a politician was deliberately compromised while for example on an overseas trip, or perhaps one of our leaders was leading a 'double life' What are the security implications for a country that doesn't keep a watchful if discreet eye on its top political leader?

    Such ensnarements could conceivably come from countries who in most other regards could be considered as 'friendly'* but who might want some extra leverage in for example trade negotiations, or even as an extreme example at the other extend of the spectrum want to secure the support of UK forces for a military operation?

    (*I think Klaus Fuchs escaped the maximum punishment # for his treason on the grounds that the country he was spying for was still technically one of our allies) (#PS just to say that I strongly disagree with the death sentence)

    Senior civil servants for example are routinely vetted and checked in this way, what is the logical argument to suggest that if someone is elected to office they are beyond the sort of subtle pressures that we recognise can be applied against others?

    I don’t understand the reasoning here and the logic behind the so called Wilson doctrine or his refusal to vet Ministers as directly asked for by Richard Crossman and another Minister George Wigg.

    In 1972 Sir Martin Furnival Jones, a former Director General of Mi5 told the Franks committee that;

    “ if the Russian Intelligence Service can recruit a back-bench MP and he climbs to a ministerial position, the spy if home and dry.’

    This might apply to any organisation or country even one perceived to be friendly who might wish to influence the policy of this country, for example the use of our armed forces in conflicts around the world.

    I’m not sure that anything has really changed since Sir Martin Furnival Jones made these comments.

    The checks that may be carried out under current guidelines might not be sufficient to fully guarantee our security. And one problem would be of course would be if the problem lay at the top of Government or for example someone had risen to that position without having being formerly a Cabinet minister.

    The Independent on 17.11.06 reports that Denis Donaldson was recruited (by Mi5) "in the 1980s after compromising myself during a vulnerable time in my life"

    What our side has done, is probably carried out by the security services of most countries against the leaders of other countries. To pretend otherwise and on that basis not take measures to protect our country is surely a mistake?

    Who watches over the person once they have reached Number 10?



    *********************************************************************






  • Comment number 13.

    Sarah (Martha)

    Is this a necessary response to the threat posed by paedophiles or has the government most perspective?

    Loved the idea, but it will deter parents from participating in the lives of their children lives; when its comes down to the point of Going thru a Background Check...

    =Dennis Junior=

  • Comment number 14.

    Oddly enough, only this week I was at a private meeting of notable English-speaking Welsh 'Creative types' and we were voicing our anger at the almost total dominance of Welsh speakers within the Welsh Television industry. This has gone on now for almost 30 years.

    Not only do the Welsh speaking community have vast sums - tens even hundreds of millions - of British tax-payers' money hurled at them in the guise of S4C and associated Welsh language Arts' QUANGOS but they have, for years, dominated both ITV Wales and BBC Wales. The result is an almost complete stiffling of the English speaking Culture in Wales - the Culture of over 80% of the Welsh population.

    It is high time that Wales had its own English language Welsh Television Station staffed and run by English-speaking Welsh reflecting the Culture of the English-speaking majority and not have, in some people's views, the Media in Wales run by, arguably, a clique of Welsh speakers. BBC Wales SHOULD be this English-speaking channel.

    You can hardly switch on BBC Wales these days without seeing an advert for something to do with the Welsh language or turn on BBC Radio Wales and hear endless promoting of the Welsh language - all at the expense of the English-speaking Welsh majority who comprise over 80% of the Welsh population. No wonder both Sky and Virgin have such a high audience in Wales because the terrestrial television channels do not reflect the lives of the Welsh majority.

    It is long overdue that BBC Wales was turned into the English-speaking Welsh Broadcaster, staffed by and making programmes for the English-speaking Welsh majority - and not domainted by Welsh speakers at the senior level. It is absolutely scandalous that English-speaking Welsh artists, writers, film-makers, musicians and the like are afraid to publicly talk about this cultural apatheid for fear of losing the few crumbs that they receive from the BBC Wales table.

    If what has happened to the Media in Wales was happening anywhere else in the World then Newsnight and the BBC generally would be highlighting it but, because it is Wales, no criticism is allowed of the Welsh language even if that language discrimates in terms of Culture, of jobs and of free speech.

  • Comment number 15.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 16.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 17.

  • Comment number 18.

    I looked up the Children's Society. They got £9.1 million in Government grants on their last accounts. Sounds more like a Quango to me. I certainly won't be giving them any more money (of the voluntary sort that is).

    That American comes on Newsnight spouting the government line without telling of where his funding is coming from which I find deceptive. Especially when he is backing yet more repressive, intrusive and controlling legislation. It would be interesting to know which software company is involved in this as it's probably another mega earner.

    I am sick to the teeth with these self righteous zealots and Gavin Esler didn't give him a hard time at all compared to the bashing John Humphries gave a similar spokesman this morning. So we're all criminals now unless the likes of that American say so. I wonder what they'll come up with next because ecery time they get away with imposing another nasty law you can be sure they'll be back (fully funded by us) to add some more.

    It doesn't look like the Tories are going to do anything about it despite Cameron saying how ridiculous the whole system is at his last speech to the Conservative Party Conference. No choice for us as usual.

  • Comment number 19.

  • Comment number 20.

  • Comment number 21.

    #14
    tawse57
    I would back you on that with a full hearted support.
    mimpromptu

  • Comment number 22.

    "On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life." was its full title. Hence eugenics = good breeding (to compensate for dysgenics which we seem to have become srather good at).

    See the Galton Institute. Look out for 'evil dooers' like Huxley, Pearson, Fisher, Keynes, Chamberlain etc.

    We seem to have taken a good few steps backward in recent times....

  • Comment number 23.

    #21 continuation
    I've come across an interesting comment on the whole issue of the different parts of the UK and a suggestion on how to deal with it in the future. It can be found on 'thevineoftherose' under the title 'New Britannia' from June this year. The young man, who is the author of the piece, has also written about his perception of Jeremy Paxman's book 'The English'.
    mimpromptu

  • Comment number 24.

    It's like the Last Days of the Dreich - http://www.rampantscotland.com/parliamo/blparliamo_weather.htm

    A doomed administration desperately casting around for ever more bizarre, ill-conceived and destructive ways to if not save their sorry hides, then at least make a mark (stain more like) in the history books.

    Even more apt is the last of the Caledonia in the bunker (the original, full YouTube Downfall well worth a revisit) sending out callow Jugend in the form of water (and out of their) depth monitors Milibands D. and E. (future of labour, apparently) to lecture the world on the evils of flying (whilst rather ignoring a) how they go there and b) how where the left from is being pushed through for expansion) and this latest title-heavy, competence-lite entity to try and convince that if she thinks its common sense well, then, it just must be.

    Bearing in mind previous and current levels of service delivery, the notion of a few (thousand... hundred?) extra public self-servants coping with vetting 1/4 of the population at all seems... optimistic, let alone in a timely and, crucially, effective manner.

    The politics of naked self-preservation leading to gambles that can only serve the interests of the few, at best, on the slim chance that any of these desperate initiatives achieve anything.

  • Comment number 25.

    The truth about the genocide in Katyn:
    The Polish newspaper ‘Polska The Times’ quotes today a document in which a group of experts working for the Russian Judiciary admitted that the massacre committed on the Polish Officers in 1940 should be treated as genocide. The document dates back to 1993 and clearly states the names of the Soviets who signed the order to commit the premeditated crimes in Katyn and other camps and prisons in Byelorussia and the Ukraine.
    mimpromptu

  • Comment number 26.

    Does the almost constant reinforcement of celebritism in the media disproportionately favour any particular group socio-economically?

  • Comment number 27.

    Shalom from mimpromptu

    There’s so much reckoning going on these days
    That it’s difficult to keep track of all the world’s ways
    Of how to move forward from the chaos ensued
    Following some madmen’s ‘activities’ invented

    Just to attract attention to themselves.
    But the times are now ready to apportion the blame.
    It’s the only way forward for the world to move on
    But for now it is mim who sends her ‘shalom’.

  • Comment number 28.

    #26 JJ
    "Does the almost constant reinforcement of celebritism in the media disproportionately favour any particular group socio-economically?"

    Since one man's advantage is another's disadvantage, the distorted level and form of today's worship of celebrity, coupled with the false gods of 'Equality and Empowerment' have a negative impact on the lower socio-econmic groups in our society, many of whom aspire to a lifestyle way above their abilities or means.

    By creating poor role models and showing how extreme wealth can come from minor talents the lower socio-economic group in our society are being fed false values and hopes, plus a large helping of envy.

    In my youth "keeping up with the Jones's" was a common expression and aspiration. Before the huge razamataz of mass-media and marketing/PR gurus, we were better able to recognise real worth and character than is the case today. In the days when music hall was the main form of entertainment a performer's influence was localised. Now it is on 50" TV screens in the living rooms of most of the 'poor' who live in my insalubrious area.

    Furthermore, I am appaled at the way that success and failure are highlighted in TV entertainment today, with deliberately harsh treatment (personal insult, perfunctory dismissal, no reward for trying, painful climax-building delays in announcing the losers, etc) all adding stress and cruelty for the sake of suspense and 'heightened' entertainment. Like the lottery with it's huge prize for the winner and virtually nothing for the losers, it's all rather reminiscent of the days of the Roman Collosseum. The only benefactors now are the absolute winners (based more on luck than talent or ability)and the promoters of such entertainment.

  • Comment number 29.

    THE BBC's GOVERNORS & ALL MAJOR UK POLITICAL PARTIES OUGHT TO BE DELIBERATING HOW THE BBC's FUNDING CAN BE INCREASED OVER THE LONG TERM

    If the United Kingdom wants to remain a noticeable country on the world stage, let alone 1 that other countries' businesses/people want to do business with- or set up businesses in- or lend money to- then the UK must retain its pre-eminence and if possible, increase its lead on the world's TV, Radio & all platforms of Internet-delivered media (IE desk-top/lap-top computer, set-top box AND MOBILE PHONE/POCKET PC)...

    Unfortunately, the country's defacto 'world emissary'- the BBC- is at risk of being rendered 'UK-bound', neutered and gagged- due to unbelievably short-sighted long-term inadequate funding...

    Many of the BBC's best TV/Video programmes can't be accessed from overseas anymore...

    Its previously award winning web sight has been being noticeably degraded for over 18 months... contradicting Labour's oft stated objective that it wants the country to lead the world in Internet technology...

    While the BBC's web sight has been massively dumbed down, its (previously) extensive resources of news, business, human interest & other information types- available in text, audio & video formats- have been substantially reduced both in scope & quality...

    The depth of reporting has- viewed from over here in North America- been gutted while a large amount of the BBC's web sight's TV programmes & TV channels have mindlessly been walled off from 'outside of UK' access...

    As of about 2-months ago, overseas persons wanting to access the BBC's web site content are served material that is significantly inferior to what UK residents receive- and often with inane, tasteless commercials...

    Even the BBC World Service radio stream does not work on mobile phones/pocket PC's anymore...

    If one goes to: http://www.bbcradio.mobi/ on a mobile phone or pocket PC running Windows 6.0 or 6.1 one gets a list of most BBC radio stations- including BBC World Service radio- and links to these stations' audio streams...

    But BBC World Service's stream does not work..... WHY?????

    What is constructive or 'good for UK business or international politics interests' in this situation?

    The BBC's world leading radio stations and their respective programmes used to have comprehensive explanatory text on their individual web home pages- not any more!!

    As of about 2 months ago Radio 1, 2, 3, 4 and others' web home pages have been reduced to what is comparable to that which could be expected from an elementary school child's class project: the new virtually blank web pages have no text explaining individual programmes' topics...

    What's left appears more like an afterthought of a lazy web page designer than that representing a multi-billion pound world multi-media corporation...

    This would not be so bad if the BBC iplayer would work outside of the UK so that overseas persons could access the BBC's vastly superior news, business, human interest, sports, arts and social-topic video and audio delivered media..

    But the BBC iplayer has been programmed deliberately to not function outside the UK... so the UK's best, world-beating TV/video programmes- such as Newsnight, Panorama, Click, FastTrack, HardTalk, Our World, Dateline London, Reporters and even the daily TV/video news broadcasts (like the 10 O'clock News)- are no longer viewable from outside the UK...

    This would make sense, possibly, if overseas persons were enabled to pay for iplayer use, maybe in the form of a monthly, yearly or even a weekly 'subscription'... similar to what RealPlayer markets to potential customers for access to its 'premium' services...

    Instead of this, hugely counterproductive media-access walls are being erected around the UK...

    Those preparing the upcoming UK budget ought to be considering the above & getting rid of the clearly inadequate TV license method of funding the BBC & instead switching to an annual 'media tax' applicable to adult UK residents... with partial or full rebates available to low-income persons...

    SHORT revenue generating commercials could be inserted at the beginning of BBC TV programmes that are accessed via the Internet from overseas- as US stations like MSNBC and others do...

    UK budget preparation persons ought to be asking:

    - 'how can the UK most effectively advertise & promote itself in the coming decades??'

    Without the, for over 1/2 a century, world renowned and unrivaled, BBC- enabled to function at its best- the UK risks being written off as a 'useless', 'lost cause', 'not good investment location' by those observing from overseas.....

    Even when times are tough & finances at their grimmest- families & small businesses that have common sense 'keep up appearances' & make sure that the family's or business's outward facing facade remains stable & retains continuity...

    Why should these practices not apply to countries facing financial challenges, especially those with central roles on the world's most important political, economic & security structures- such as the UK?

    Making cuts & negative spending adjustments internal to the UK generally may be advisable & necessary during these challenging times....

    But, today's world economic situation calls for an expansion, not reduction, in national-institutions that are as fundamental to how the UK is perceived around the world as the BBC...

    To assist the City/ London retaining its title of 'world financial centre' there ought to be a UK based 24-hour business-news world TV channel- with its own designated Internet resources- accessible world-wide....

    The BBC's excellent business news reporting capabilities could be partnered with another quality UK Mark such as the Financial Times to fill this role ably.

    What is good for the UK or the world economy generally by the US's Bloomberg & CNBC continuing to monopolize the 24-hour world business news TV/video space??

    Until the world and UK economies stabilize & until the rapidly evolving Internet reaches at least a modicum of stasis, the BBC- particularly its Internet-accessible text, audio & video services- ought to be as liberally funded as is reasonably possible...

    Politicians ought to give their collective heads a shake and ask themselves what will be left for the UK to brag about & to enable it to 'stand apart from the rest of the world' in a useful, constructive, positive way- if the BBC is allowed to be destroyed due to inadequate long-term funding and its resulting incompetent long-term objective setting...

    A properly funded & resourced BBC should be enabled to function as a first rate shop window for the UK- keeping the country in the forefront of the world's peoples, political leaders & business professionals/entrepreneurs minds...

    Roderick V. Louis,
    Vancouver, Canada

  • Comment number 30.

    indignantindegene (#28) What's revealing about the outcry over BNP politicians being invited on Question Time is, I suggest how the expressed 'anti-racism' (pro anarchism?) is almost always voiced by White people.

    There is one group which is White which is also protected by Race-Relations legislation. In fact, this group and its representatives was instrumental in bringing about this legislation, and it was behind much of the Civil Rights and other movements to do with immigration in the USA too.

    My concern is that what we may in fact be seeing other, lower mean ability, minority groups being abused in a political subterfuge orchestrated by 'anarchists' to secure white socio-economic supremacy for a minority white group, and that the BNP itself is just being used as a whipping stool in what is in fact, a very old, affirmative action, egregious, political game.

    Is this democracy?

  • Comment number 31.

    erratum (#30) "what we may in fact be seeing, is other..

  • Comment number 32.

    APPARENTLY IT IS NOT ME - WESTMINSTER IS NINNY HEAVEN. (#7)

    From time to time I wonder: "Is it me?" But I have begun reading Chris Mullin's diaries, and there can be no doubt that no amount of jaundice is sufficient for a fair view of Westminster 'governance'. But - witness the fact it did not bring the monarch out at the head of her troops, to close the place down. The charade continues. What is more: its archetypal spawn, Anthony Blair, floats round the world UNTAINTED by association!!!!!!!!!

    How utterly bizarre can 'governance' (home and world) get before it falls apart? 'The Lie' is now all-embracing.

    Weep Creator.

  • Comment number 33.

    barrie (#32) Have you considered the political implications of the stereotypical bright British temperament being 'reserved' when others group(s) (amongst them as a consequence of large scale immigration/multiculturalism and focussed settlement), are not? Especially if temperament/character is hereditary like intelligence?

    Who might have a vested interest is peddling empirically groundless dogmas of human plasticity/Lysenkoism along with naive equalitarianism? The reserved or the pushy_who_seek/love_the_limelight?
    What drives those to seek the limelight? Is it an identity disorder? Is it an 'infantile disorder'?

    Is this 'democracy'?

  • Comment number 34.

    Aup, whats happening here then:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1212831/Tensions-threaten-boil-right-wing-extremists-anti-fascist-protestors-clash-outside-London-mosque.html

    the path to multiculturalism and its inevitabe outcome is as predictable as the Obama administration was always gonna be full of neo-marxists...no crystal ball was ever needed.

  • Comment number 35.

    pedo hysteria

    shouldn't everyone be checked including parents? parents have been known to be pedos too? also shouldn't all children be checked to see if they have made false claims against adults or done sexual crimes? or should adults not be protected from dangerous behaviour of 'children'? i have seen 14 year old teenagers surround a woman and chant rape rape rape. Anyone who tried to break them up was called a pedo. the mere accusation of which can result in months of investigation with no come back on the kids.

    anyone who makes a false claim should suffer the same penalty they were willing to inflict upon other people?

    kids need to be protected but so do adults.

  • Comment number 36.

    bbc

    where are the shortages? In investigative journalism and online news boards [the bbc closed their great debate board down even though it broke news]. c4 closed their news board down. so why does the bbc not do public service in areas the commercials can't? because they are playing executive power games? which is not the same as public service.

    all online content should be behind a login screen linked to the licence fee. why do it so anyone can see it? its an abuse of the public.

  • Comment number 37.

    THAT IT SHOULD COME TO THIS (#35)

    Your point valid bd. But only in our mad Britain. What a fine mess.

  • Comment number 38.

    TANGLED WEBS WEAVED...

    thecookieducker (#34) A game of obfuscation and logical class. In the 1930s, the 'communists' in East London would have been the international type (Jewish Trotskyites) not the 'Socialist in One Country' Stalinist type ascendant in the USSR. The leader of the BUF was ex Labour. There was problem of entryism in the Labour party even back then.

    Logically, today, those giving the Muslims are hard time would more likely to be those with an interest in supporting Israel. Stalinist USSR was a supporter of the Arab/Muslim world, it had its own Muslim republics.

    This appears to be an egregious game which plays race against political group, where the two can be co-terminus. It is easy to charge someone with racism when one is doing so from a political movement acting in the socio-economic interests of one's 'racial' group. I reckon John Denham made a bad comparison likening the English Defence League to the BUF of the 1930s.

    Any violence on our streets is criminal behaviour, full stop.

  • Comment number 39.

    #33/34 EXTREMISTS v EXTREMISTS

    Mr Denham (Communities Secretary)told the Guardian.
    "I think that the English Defence League and other organisations are not actually large numbers of people, they clearly, though, have among them people who know what exactly they're doing. If you look at the types of demonstrations they've organised... it looks pretty clear that it's a tactic designed to provoke and to get a response and hopefully create violence."

    Or desperately trying to provoke a meaningful response from a government that continues to ignore the clash of cultures that they unleashed?

    When there is no sign of response except gagging protest, riots result. Why refer back to the 1930s, didn't they learn anything from more recent riots in our towns about multicultural problems?

    All the 'communities' secretary does is to refer to yet another planned 'initiative' this time to speak to the poorer white folk, having failed with earlier 'initiatives' to get Islamic leaders to integrate.


    "Elders at the mosque criticised the timing of the protest as it coincided not just with the anniversary of the September 11 attacks but also Ramadan, which is of deep spiritual significance to Muslims"

    Here we go again with the bleating about 'deep spiritual significance' to Muslims. I once felt a deep spiritual significance about my heritage, (many generations of Thames Boatmen and Watermen)and fail to see why religious rites should be given greater sanctity than patriotism, which is now a pejorative word. The best I can do is to watch the Thames Barge Rowing Race tomorrow and wonder what my ancestors would have thought about the decline in our English society.

    Contrast this with the Scottish National Party who are seen as a positive movement in building pride in their country, even aiming for independance.

  • Comment number 40.

    DOUBLE DEALERS AND PIGGIES IN THE MIDDLE (NAIVE FOOTSOLDIERS?)

    indignantindegene (#39) In brief, we have allowed our (anarchistic/Socialist International) government to import the Muslim-Jewish (Arab-Israeli) conflict into an ever more Balkanized Britain, as I see it.

    Not too long ago we were being induced (by the likes of Neocon NGOs such as Policy Exchange) to believe that militant Muslims lurking in mosques were Islamo-Fascists. Now, we're being induced to believe that those opposiing them are fascists!

    Which group is it taboo to criticize, and which group is it open season on?

    That, I suggest, is the give-away.

  • Comment number 41.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 42.

    Bruce Forsyth didn't seem to have any mould-breaking views on broadcasting trends or economic policies. Who will you try next I wonder? Perhaps Lady Gaga would like to grace our screen with her views on the NHS? Or Shane McGowan might be persuaded to advise on the direction of our foreign policy?

  • Comment number 43.

    "DESPERATELY TRYING TO PROVOKE A MEANINGFUL RESPONSE" (#39)

    How true those words ring IDG2. And when no response is forthcoming, the frustration boils over - to be annexed, to advantage, by all sorts of subversives, including government!

    We are told not to leave valuable goods on display in a car, but is not a shiny mosque, on display in a community, of equivalent provocation?

    Ordinary daily PC is petty, visible and risible. But this barmy pretence by politicians that they 'do not see colour', do not feel disturbingly outnumbered by 'them' in some situations, or do not notice when the dentist or nurse speaks a scarce-intelligible form of English, is just deceitful nonsense.

    In passing, with abuse of the elderly in the air, if I thought it would "PROVOKE A MEANINGFUL RESPONSE", I would ask whoever is 'governing health' for the next week or two, to tell me if elderly, confused English folk should be confronted with Pidgin English on entering hospital. I have had to watch its effect, and would term it low level abuse. Worse, it is ABUSE FROM PURELY ECONOMIC MOTIVE, on the part of British government. We prize GDP over human kindness to our own. Bravo Westminster.

  • Comment number 44.

    #40 Jaded_Jean

    "Which group is it taboo to criticize, and which group is it open season on?

    That, I suggest, is the give-away."

    Clearly there has always been an open season on those that tell blatant and evil lies - so those that revere the "peace loving" Hitler and deny the Holocaust - or in your case are "agnostic" on it - are always likely to be exposed for what they are.

    There has always been open season on those that try to engender hatred against others on the basis of religion and race. This is largely due to the unscientific and utterly illogical racial analysis that was void of rationality in the 1930's. Today with the benefit of genetic research it is the equivalent of the flat earth believers trying to convince the world that they are cutting edge. There is no Jewish Communist International nor has there ever been any evidence of one.

    It is risible to suggest that it is taboo to criticise Jews when you do it almost daily ad nauseam.

    The far right has increasing numbers of attempted and actual bombers plus the most hideous of criminals such as the Twickenham Green murderer and the Baby P batterer.

    The Muslim community has taken steps to root out those that would exploit their followers and the far right is the entity that threatens stability in the UK.

    As ever your comments are infantile, unthinking, illogical and based on an emotional and cult like attachment to the failed ideas of that evil author of "Mein Kampf".

    Incidentally I saw some of the "Hitler Tape" where Hitler was unaware he was being recorded. He described the Russians as "animals". That fits in with the history as I know. In yours all the jolly Stalinists and National Socialist were good buddies. No starving and and shooting Russian prisoners and raping and murdering civilians.

    But of course you are trying to position the far right to pick up gullible left wing socialists rather than accurately reflecting history.

  • Comment number 45.

    I THINK POSTMAN-PAT IS DOING HEALTH THIS WEEK? (#43 additional)

    Didn't he send some chap's wife to Canada for 2 years? I shan't bother to copy him in on my #43. I reckon he would only term a hospital full of foreigners treating foreigners 'an inconvenience'.

    See - now they have got me boiling over and I am ready to be picked off.

  • Comment number 46.

    #39 indignantindegene

    "All the 'communities' secretary does is to refer to yet another planned 'initiative' this time to speak to the poorer white folk, having failed with earlier 'initiatives' to get Islamic leaders to integrate."

    Muslims are of many colours and those who are not of the Islamic faith are also of many colours.

    So its self evident that your view is based upon the racial prejudice that relies on the cosmetic colour of somebody's skin to define what lies beneath.

    It is also clear that as there were about twenty far right protesters and getting on for a thousand people tired of incidents such as the gentleman kidnapped at knifepoint following BNP leaflets against mosques the far right is indeed small in number.

    The majority of the population, of all races, are quite happy for the Muslims of this country to be left in peace to worship as they please.

    Al Qaeda is the enemy and some of its number are white.

  • Comment number 47.

    #38 jaded_Jean

    "In the 1930s, the 'communists' in East London would have been the international type (Jewish Trotskyites) not the 'Socialist in One Country' Stalinist type ascendant in the USSR."

    Absolute nonsense. You would assume that if you describe somebody as communist it is because they espouse communism.

    But not you and those twisted minds of the far right. Jews are "communists" because of race and because they are neither Stalinist or national Socialist - and that is the issue.

    There is no logic or history whatever other than it was deemed that Jews were "an internal political and economic threat" and merited "persecution". You also manage to be "agnostic" on the Holocaust despite the overwhelming evidence that it happened and your

    As ever you make allusions to Stalin as the far right are known as evil pariahs and you hope to entice far left voters who won't recollect that Hitler's mob killed twenty five million or so Stalinist's before the Holocaust is considered.

    That number would have included Jews who were Stalinists in all probability.

  • Comment number 48.

    #34 cookieducker

    "the path to multiculturalism and its inevitabe outcome is as predictable as the Obama administration was always gonna be full of neo-marxists...no crystal ball was ever needed."

    Its only when you post that you post rubbish.

    Multiculturalism is not under any threat as twenty sad individuals caused trouble by inciting outrage and then had to run away and be protected by the police as they were vastly outnumbered.

    The Obama administration is not full of neo-Marxists.

    In other places the English Defence League relies on football hooligans.

    These bodies are, I assume, supposed to be unlinked to any far right party so that they can act as the violent arm, the SA, of others.

    For instance the BNP, that I believe you support, is "not a Nazi party" and so would not support the views of Jaded_Jean and other far right fanatics above. Of course Nick Griffin reveres Hitler and National Socialism as do many of the above posters.

    But it won't last long as the far right has a long tradition of incompetence as for instance Lewington "the SS Manual would be bomber" who insulted a British Rail conductor while carrying tennis ball bombs for unknown reasons.

    The police are already reported to being pooling their intelligence.

    Somebody will blab and the connections will be made - but the sooner the better.

  • Comment number 49.

    #1 barriesingleton

    "MPs seem to have little comprehension of human functionality - particularly their own. They apply no emotional intelligence to governance, and a glance at 'who is topp' tells all you need to know of their judgement of character."

    But democracy is so much better than National Socialism is it not. The latter is so vile and refuted people will blabber on inanely about it without ever admitting their allegiance to it as they know its a total turn off.

  • Comment number 50.

    TOTAL TURNOFF (#49)

    Does National Socialism ADMIT it is National Socialism, and function according to relevant precepts? I have to confess, I have no idea, hence I make no comparison. It is the boundless hypocrisy of British 'democracy' (not to mention 'civilisation') a bogus democracy that we have the gall to bomb into 'less enlightened' regimes, that ruptures my spleen with such explosive force.

    Don't drag me into the Hitler thing Gango, Yes - he did try to kill me, but I don't have any great feelings either way. (:o)

  • Comment number 51.

    FUNNY HOW THINGS CHANGE

    thegangofone (#49) National Socialism:- the means of production, exchange and communication etc in a nation are taken into public ownership to create a welfare state.

    Free-marketeer liberatarians think this is vile because it limits their opporunity for market speculation, and makes exploitation of 'consumers' a crime against the people, i.e makes getting rich at the expense of others an offence.

    National Socialists didn't like such people, so, years ago they used to send them out of their countries for beng incorrigibly mean minded, and/or put them into prison (aka the GULAG).

    Today, it's all very different - such people get Ks or Ps, or are celebrities...

  • Comment number 52.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 53.

    go1 somewhere up above:

    Obama has many 'tzars' who give him council...coming up on link below is Glenn Beck from Fox (fix, faux, whatever) giving his take on an Obama incumbent. The regulatory tzar Cass Sunstien, the highbrow professor, lawyer and liberal nutter freak. Plus the diversity tsar is a chap called Mark Lloyd..no stretch of the imagination is needed here for these two fella's but it will all become clear as you watch the vid.

    I've dug this up just for you go1:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP70EdQZKgo

    Today i decided that i am going to send a very strong worded letter to my MP - he's liberal and useless, but pleasant - and ask for the banning of the ANL on account they are violent. They could however form a political party - like the way the BNP did - so that they can engage the electorate rather than scare and frighten the good citizens of this country. If i dont' get some joy from my MP..I am out protesting.

    One more thing go1. How is it that Liberials will promote cultures and religions such as Islam in this country when Islamic countries are by default...totalitarian. ...do you revere Pol Pot by any chance? do you wear a red headscarf and have a tennis racket...pretending its an AK47...do you hunt down middle class bespectacled folk in newsagents and see if they purchase the Daily Mail?..do you go POW! POW! and point your racket at them when you see one?..or are you still too busy Nazi spotting?

    My! what a frightening world you inhabit... be careful what you fear as the things you fear have a habit of eventually making an appearance. I think you should try meditation, it may just help you!..don't take that wrong, just a little bit of advice buddy.

  • Comment number 54.

    DISCWORLD HYMN

    Tutu has a prolapsed disc;
    God's made him the shorter!
    Though creation He got right
    He's rubbish as a wroughter.
    So Lord lay off the little chap
    Let Tu-tu dance once more.
    Re-work him to his former height
    And mightier than before.

  • Comment number 55.

    THE WORK OF MUDDLED PEOPLE OR OF ACTIVE MUDDLERS?

    thecookieducker (#53) The key idea to hold on to in Behavioural Economics is a very simple but very powerful one:- discounting.

    Specially, the non-linearity (ogive or S shape) of the hyperbolic discounting function.

    [Note: the following is a mean (average) effect subject to diversity]

    In brief, many folk will trade a larger reward in the distant future, for a much smaller reward which is very imminent. It's like kids with sweets. Offered 2 vs 20 in 2 hours, they will tend to go for 2 'now'. This trades on impulsivity/'low self-control'), yet, given a choice of 2 sweets in 90 minutes vs 10 sweets in 120 minutes, the choice reverses.

    In brief, lower cognitive ability and lower behavioural inhibition (higher impulsivity) seem to be correlated. As a population changes dysgenically, it will become more true that people (not all) will become more impulsive, i.e. more peole will become vulnerable to predatory lending. In my view, under such conditions, one will thus see more authoritarian, more regulative/socialist governments, in order to protect the vulnerable from predators.

    This dimesnion of human diversity is, in my view, played down by libertarian anarchists, for what should, on reflection, be obvious reasons given that doing so is good for the few at the expense of the lower ability 'consumer'. The predators and their 'useful idiots' many of whom think they are being nice, make out that we are all the same...

    The evidence from the (Galtonian) Psychology of Individual Differences (at one time, largely applied psychology itself as it was 'testing') has thus become a taboo as a consequence.

    This, I submit, has been the 'far-right' at work - but it's not as thegangofone and media tend to make out. The far-right, are in fact, libertarian (e.g. Hayekian/Thatcherite/Reaganite) free-marketeers, the very opposite of what's reinforced by the largely libertarian media.

  • Comment number 56.

    #55 jaded_Jean

    As ever pretentious nonsense in your "explication".

    To handle your left/ issue right most people would describe the National Socialists as far right and therefore that is the common currency. You regard yourself as far left as you hope to snare disillusioned Labour voters with no sense of morality or history.

    In actual fact I don't see you as left or right but as evil. Hitler was no more than a replacement aristocrat driven by his own childhood psychological issues (mother -> Geli Raubal). He adopted policy in an amoral way. Ideology does not exist as such for National Socialists and that is why they are so comfortable with lies and propaganda.

    The Nazis killed more far left Stalinists than "anarchists and Trotskyites" and considered Slavs sub-human. Thats why when the tide turned the surrender monkeys ran towards the West and not the East.

    AS for your nonsense on economics and psychology I can save people the bother of trying to cut through the pretence.

    Jaded_Jean not only is "agnostic" on the Holocaust but cites statistics that show that it may not have happened at all - hence the "agnosticism". So the phrase "i.e. more peole will become vulnerable to predatory lending." is almost certainly another tedious attempt to shock and provoke by oblique references to Jews (Jewish Communist International).

    Ask yourself why, seventy years after the war, there is no "beef".

    The second you wonder why there is no evidence of a Jewish Communist International or why so many trials of nazi war criminals were won or how a "conspiracy" - the Holocaust - that allegedly was coordinated across tens of millions of people who spoke different languages. Ask why so many Nazis confessed. Ask how Stalin ejecting "anarchists and Trotskyites" - some of whom were Jewish - meant that they were an "internal political and economic threat" in Germany and why that led to the attempted extermination of Jews in Europe.

    Jaded_Jean provides the inadequate notion that the Holocaust was made up to put people off "statists" - who are Stalinists or Nazis. But then this facile argument, given its "made up" after a war has been won, is extended by the notion that any violent deaths were down to the Russians - Stalinists and "statists".

    Ask why they witter on about race "realism" and eugenics when genetic science shows that genetic variation is greater within a race than between races - the races are close and differ mostly in cosmetic ways.

    That this nonsense is promoted daily shows that it is not because of facts and logic and science but because of an unhinged tribal hatred that generates a bonding cult-madness that replaces the need for intelligence and cool analysis.


  • Comment number 57.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 58.

    #53 cookiducker

    "How is it that Liberials will promote cultures and religions such as Islam in this country when Islamic countries are by default...totalitarian"

    Forgot to add that you are incorrect. I vote Liberal and I am not a party member - but Liberals don't "promote cultures and religions" as they are not schizophrenic like the BNP - that is "not a Nazi Party".

    They promote tolerance and understanding of cultures and respect individuals regardless of their race, sex, colour or creed.

    Genetic variation is greater within a race than between races and there is no basis whatever for the kind of eugenics and race "realism" you people promote.


  • Comment number 59.

    Newsnight is it not possible to have a poll to see whether the BNP voters themselves are National Socialists as the party itself claims not to be a Nazi Party?

    Also those that voted BNP last - did they understand what they were voting for or was it a large lump of National Socialists and a rump of protest voters plus those who had no idea that the BNP literature showing Spitfires and Churchill was in fact promoting a party that revered Hitler?

  • Comment number 60.

    Newsnight now the BNP are on the political agenda can we not know the circumstances by which Nick Griffin lost his eye? Gordon Brown lost his in rugby. The rumour is Griffin put a shotgun cartridge in a fire - as you do - and then sat down next to it.

    This man belongs to a party that's website "has more hits than all of the other parties combined" and therefore could form the next government!


  • Comment number 61.

    #33 jaded_Jean

    "Is this 'democracy'?"

    Yes it is!

    After several decades or so you catch on quite fast.

    Your "revered" hero Hitler lost the war and there have always been very few National Socialists in this country. The National Socialists are known to be evil due to fifty million plus dead in WWII and the Holocaust and their scatty ideas on race.

    But you are making progress or a sorts and in a few more decades you may make the leap from inadequate to competent. Maybe.

  • Comment number 62.

    thegangofone (#56) "To handle your left/ issue right most people would describe the National Socialists as far right and therefore that is the common currency."

    What's common currency is often factually wrong. Were that not so, we would never benefit from research (scientific or other), i.e. we would never learn, we would all think the planet was flat and that Earth the centre of the universe. In fact, many people still do think that they're the centre of the universe. They have a learning difficulty.

    Where you often go wrong so often (whether on purpose of by accident doesn't matter here) is revealed through your proneness to 'error' which is frequently factually correct by others to no avail. You do not look critically at what you state or subscribe to. I suggest you look at Axis II, Cluster B in DSM-IV.

    I also suggest you watch the BBC piece on Hitler's bodyguard critically. What flaws can you find in it (quite apart from asking why it is being broadcast at all)? Look closely at the credits.

    There appears to be a stream of right-wing (anarchistic, pro-free market)propaganda directed at the electorates in the liberal-democracies. The consequence (intended or not) is to reinforce free-market liberal-democracy whilst making statism unattractive. This drives the birth rate down dangerously below replacement level whilst also tipping them towards dysgenesis too.

    This is what you are endorsing, whether you know it or not.

  • Comment number 63.

    erratum (#62) "factually corrected by others to no avail"

    Your failure to learn from correction of your errors is revealing. These are not errors which you can argue about either, as we can all see ehere you get matters factually wrong just by reading your posts, i.e. what you assert others have written, and what they have actually written. You even tell people what they think and believe. How do you have access to any of that (quite aside from such intensional states being hightly controversial)? Sadly, some of our historians like to peddle in the intensioal too. Be very wary of those who tell you what political leaders etc thought, believed etc.

    You demonstrably fabricate and misread which leads you inevitably to misrepresent. Correcting you is usually a waste of time because you misread.

  • Comment number 64.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 65.

    go1:

    i originally asked:

    "How is it that Liberials will promote cultures and religions such as Islam in this country when Islamic countries are by default...totalitarian"

    you replied with utter nonsense than followed with this:

    "They [the Liberial] promote tolerance and understanding of cultures and respect individuals regardless of their race, sex, colour or creed"

    You did actually answer my question.

    You live in cloud cookoo land, every one knows that liberilism - other than the liberal - is just a mental disorder fostered from an out of
    touch view of the world. I've witnessed often your rants towards others on here who only ever ask you to consider views other than your own entrenched views or check out for yourself hard facts/evidence offered...your inability to learn from others is astounding but not surprising considering your cut and paste post's...you show no sign of original thought or comprehension of views other than your own slanted biased view...this born out of the fact that your still a child. When you finally get a job, girlfriend , mortgage, shed, and 20yrs behind you with life's experience, then maybe i will listen to what you have to say. At present the only one on here who has dictatorial and fascist tendencies is yourself. The realisation will one day come to you, that you can't legislate against human tribal and cultural traits and hope that we all get along, don't you read history other than the Holocaust?... in the meantime the posters on your wall of Che and Co should no doubt keep you company. When you eventually want to join the real world, I'll greet you with open arms ..and introduce you to my mate Nick and get you some nice tailor made leather boots...whats your shoe size?

  • Comment number 66.

    OF SHEDS AND SHOE SIZE (#65)

    Great composition, CD - the 'shed' slayed me. As sanity fades, humour is in the ascendant on this forum. That'll do nicely.

  • Comment number 67.

    barrie (#66) It's not just in this forum. It's all over the place these days. Allegedly, some analyses are vile and repugnant in a 'civlvilized society'........

  • Comment number 68.

    from mimpromptu
    Barrie and Gango
    Don't you think that cookieducker and jj sound as if it was in fact the same person writing. As I think jj also writes under bubblegumtriffid and generalmidwinter, so it is just possible that he's been keeping rather busy ranting away under different pseudonyms. What do you think? Isanity personified?

  • Comment number 69.

    mimpromptu (#68) "What do you think? Isanity personified?"

    You really should take my advice.

  • Comment number 70.

    Got to share this

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/st3f4n/sets/72157616350171741/show

    Brilliant- the attention to detail is obsessive, genius or too much time on their hands.

  • Comment number 71.

    #69 from mimpromptu
    on what, prey, do say

  • Comment number 72.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 73.

    from mimpromptu
    Apparently 'Russia has agreed to lend Venezuela over $2bn (£1.2bn) to buy weapons, President Hugo Chavez has said.', according to BBC news. That's the world we live in, with constant threats and counter-threats in abundance. I just wonder where Russia is taking the funds from to sponsor the Venezuelan project, I thought the country was in a dreadful financial situation (?).

  • Comment number 74.

    LOOK AT OUTCOMES/CONSEQUENCES OF BEHAVIOUR, NOT INTENT/SIONAL STATES

    mimpromptu (#71). Where? In many areas I suspect, but I suggest you look to statements posted, analyses given, and at the world in general to see if they fit. Do statements that you see written, analyses that you see provided, fit the overall facts? Do they serve a useful, predictive, function?

    It's what's said which matters, not who says it. Try to relate objectively (allocentrically) to what people post. People should be respected for what they say, but what they say should not be respected/disrespected just because they are famous/infamous. An author's identity/personal life is not what should concern you in an anonymous forum, especially if it's to value, or devalue what they post. Some posters here can see this, some can't.

    The more self-obsessed/narcissistic a society becomes, the more it gravitates towards individualism and the less a society, culture or nation. This is 'the road to anarchism'. This is what pro-free-market internationalist policy is. This is Trotskyism. See the 4th and 5th International or even the Socialist International which includes New Labour. See the New Left and Neocons. See Thatcher and Blair in Irwin Stelzer's 'The Neocon Reader', they are all basically the same, just with different glosses/makeovers. This is far-right Libertarians at work. They deceive, sometimes even themselves.

    When the German High Command sent Jewish Bolsheviks into Russia in 1917, they did so as state-destroyers, i.e. as anarchists. Their ethnic identity was kept low profile in Britain, I suspect, so there weren't violent recriminations against Jews in the East End of London, for what ensued on the Western Front. Statists, like Stalin and the rest of the Russian Democratic-Centralist/socialist party, purged these anarchists in the late 20s and 30s, as did Germany. The Second World War was a war to free the world of anarchists aka International Bolsheviks, not Stalinist Socialists. It was more complex than is made out because the West has since gone anarchistic. This is an infantile/adolescent disorder like narcissism. It erodes family life, hence the below replacement level TFRs of the Liberal-Democracies. It is demographic warfare/suicide. Those warning it of these dangers, have, ironically, been the Muslims.

    One should be wary of trusting inductive inference. One should we wary of trusting intensional states/processes in general.

    Looking at the empirical facts, show where his analysis is wrong in terms of outcomes.

    Finally, this is a real-world perspective on Behavioural Economics.

  • Comment number 75.

    erratum (#74) "where this analysis"

  • Comment number 76.

    #74 from mimpromptu
    - well, jj, and if I don't agree with you?
    - nothing or nobody else in this country is influencing my thinking at its core
    - half the time I don't know what you're talking about and am not one bit interested in spending my time in trying to understand
    - anyway, what do you really want from me? i'm after all just a feeble female, as you don't stop pointing out
    - my favourite occupations are gliding & twirling on ice, dancing on the floor in my attic, listening to music and songs (lyrics included), photo snapping, ditty writing and communication with those i respect and feel have some sharing to do, at whatever level
    - so, come out and say it: 1. who you really are (you seem to know everything about me), 2. what do you really want from me, share my bed or watch me with some other bloke?
    - come on, say it or otherwise get lost, i don't care for you anyway, even if you don't want to believe me

  • Comment number 77.

    from mimpromptu
    regarding the Jewish question:
    - for anyone trying to deny the holocaust is a testimony to their heads having something very seriously wrong with them
    - with respect to the current situation between the Israel & Palestine, I think it is a real shame that the Israeli state is not prepared to compromise with the Palestinians enough for them to finally have the right to their own properly established state. President Barack Obama seems to be thinking along similar lines but there is only that much he can do to force the Israeli government change their policies in this respect. I'm quite sure that there are many Jewish people in the world who would agree with my argument and the first I could quote is the Jewish French philosopher Mr Bernard-Henri Levy.
    - so, it takes a cowardly cheek for Bin Laden haranguing and accusing Mr Obama personally for the current state of affairs in the Middle East, while sending young Muslim men to die for a 'cause' while hiding himself in some black hole of a place. When it came to his own health, a kidney problem I understand, he didn't mind being treated in the USA.

  • Comment number 78.

    mimpromptu (#76) Please re-read #74, carefully.

  • Comment number 79.

    #78 from mimpromptu
    Regarding the current economic crisis:
    - well, i couldn't even pretend to have much of a clue how it all works and can't neither criticise the President of the USA or try and give him any advice in this respect
    - all i know that different countries have coped with the crisis differently, with some pumping lots of money in and with others less so; I suppose each country does have a different set of problems and a different set of priorities
    - Poland, with Mr Donald Tusk's government, seemed to have chosen the most prudent approach and by comparison to other countries is doing well in terms of growth, etc, but then again Poland does have a slightly different banking system in place which perhaps has made things easier to cope with
    - whatever the American approach, i hope the USA will soon start coming out of recession as it would be good for the world economics as a whole

  • Comment number 80.

    #79 from mimpromptu
    - haven't got the time, jj, shame
    - nor will i be able to re-read later

  • Comment number 81.

    mimpromptu (#76) Are the behaviours which you emit very common in the area of the world where you originally hailed from?

    On the other hand, the Germans (and other Nordic people) are a logical, (more cerebral than emotional), people. They made good engineers and scientists/logicians. Can you envisage what might have happened if and when such types came into close proximity with those more emotional/interpretive/mystical/artistic like yourself? cf. in say, The Danzig Corridor...etc... ;-)

  • Comment number 82.

    #80 from mimpromptu an addition
    I may have contacted a few so-called celebs but then again there are many that I have not contacted. It's not for the sake of fame, or anything silly like that, that I have done so but simply because I felt like it and thought that perhaps they might, possibly, be interested in what I might have to say or contribute. I also keep in touch with some of the homeless, as well as cleaners, in the Borough of Chelsea & Westminster because they also are interesting or simply pleasant to talk to. Food for thought?

  • Comment number 83.

    #80 from mimpromptu
    why not sorting it out directly with the German instead of involving the whole world? too late for that now, anyway, it's up to others from now on...

  • Comment number 84.

    from mimpromptu
    Streetphotobeing warned me against letting myself be provoked by jj, for which I feel obliged, but I'm afraid I have no choice but to tackle him and his 'colleague' head on, to each different treatment, I'd like to add. Their manipulation is far too interventionist for my liking.

  • Comment number 85.

    BEHAVIOUR AND ITS ANALYSIS

    mimpromptu (#80) "haven't got the time, jj, shame - nor will i be able to re-read later"

    That was posted at 11:39, with three more between 11:50 and 12:22.

    Do you see why I say that you would do well to look more self-critically at your behaviour? Prima facie, what you post doesn't appear to be true. Do you see why I say that? Do you see why it is fair and accurate?

  • Comment number 86.

    #85 from mimpromptu
    no, i don't, i've had far more important and interesting things to do than re-reading your posts. the end!

  • Comment number 87.

    mimpromptu@68 regarding identities:

    I am a sucker for conspiracy theories but i can assure you I'm not part of one. I'm very much me, your you and JJ is JJ:)

  • Comment number 88.

    Mandelson ' added: "Our 1997 manifesto described the New Labour approach as being 'wise spenders, not big spenders'.

    "This is and remains a core New Labour principle. We do not believe that we should try to solve problems simply by throwing money at them. We need to be 'effective state' social democrats, not 'big state' social democrats." '

    Well if they can find 175 billion of saving without making cuts then they must have been very ineffective social democrats.

  • Comment number 89.

    The cookieducker claimed that he was from Belfast some time back and more recently was going to write a letter to his liberal MP regarding banning the ANL.

    There are no Lib Dems in Northern Ireland.

    By the way I am not in the ANL - I just expose the lies and stupidity of the far right (BNP and fellow travelers) that pollute this page.

  • Comment number 90.

    mimpromptu (#80) "haven't got the time, jj, shame - nor will i be able to re-read later"


    That is the way!

    They try to assert authority and use a "peer pressure" and thats why they are so hostile to those that are not blinded by their twisted ideology - if it even merits that label.

    If people just disregard their shock tactics and abuse then they are, as you would expect, nothing.

  • Comment number 91.

    #85 jaded_Jean

    Nobody is obliged to respond to your posts.

    They repetitively cycle the same pathetic attempts to create the illusion of high intelligence and knowledge when once you cut through the obscure and pretentious language there is no substance whatever.

    For the objective reader is like something out of Springtime For Hitler who:

    1. is "agnostic" on the Holocaust
    2. believes Hitler was a "peace lover"
    3. espouses race "realism" when science shows there is greater genetic variation within a race than between races
    4. would replace democracy with National Socialist tyranny
    5. argues there is no climate change due to human intervention and never offers evidence
    6. believes there is a "Jewish Communist International"

    Anybody who is not a Stalinist or a National Socialist is an "anarchist and Trotskyite".

    Hitler was not over friendly to anarchists or Trotskyites ....

    Perhaps Jaded_Jean will look in a mirror one day .... but ultimately who cares!

  • Comment number 92.

    #81 jaded_Jean


    As ever you enthusiastically machine gun your own feet.

    Hitler was Austrian and "artistic" and well known as a temperamental character - probably due to those issues with his mother that led to the Geli Raubal sexual aberrations.

    So - as ever - the attempt to create an image when there is no substance lasts seconds.

  • Comment number 93.

    #68 mimpromptu
    "Don't you think that cookieducker and jj sound as if it was in fact the same person writing."

    Kind of. Sometimes I think it is Nick Griffin as the arguments tend to use key words and reflect what has been reported as one of his themes.

    It would explain the silly cookieducker referring to Jaded_Jean as "high end" and Jaded_Jean saying "the country is not ready for me yet"!! Yeah right!

    I have often thought there may only be one saddo who creates "Nazi characters for every occasion" to try and snare the weak minded.

    But in a way it does not matter as you don't want to let them set the agenda. You do your thing. The frequency and times of posts tells you things.

    I think now there may be a need - with all of the seventy year anniversary publicity - to highlight what did happen in the war and make sure the young do appreciate the evil that happened.

    I tend to expose the lies knowing most are too intelligent to fall for such banal lies like the inane Holocaust "agnosticism" rubbish. One thing the Beeb should pay attention to though is balancing free speech with people being exposed to this who have a history. For instance it became apparent that one poster was entering into dialogue with Jaded_Jean who had lost relatives in the Holocaust. Why should they endure blatant lies. There is the right to free speech but not a right to lie.

    So if Nick Griffin is properly sliced and diced on the media and the lies exposed then that is fine.

    What people don't want, in general, is to let them create crises that they can try to ricochet through with a view to power.

    They will follow the Hitler strategy.

    But if you simply shine a light on the lies they will melt back into the darkness.

  • Comment number 94.

    What is the status of the hunt for the Mumbai "controllers" Newsnight?

    I can't believe there are not leads to follow and that in this case the need for arrests outweighs the desire for intelligence.

  • Comment number 95.

    WHEN ONE DOESN'T BELIEVE SOMETHING HOW OFTEN IS ONE REPORTING A STATE OF IGNORANCE?

    mimpromptu (#86) "#85 from impromptu
    no, i don't, i've had far more important and interesting things to do"


    We will see, won't we. I hope to have illustrated how you and thegangofone (amongst others), perhaps unwittingly, instantiate a class of behaviour which foments conflict. You appear to be incorrigible, for reasons which I hope to have explicated so others can see for themselves. I mean you no harm.

    For anyone else with the time, in the past (as today), when rational, diplomatic discussions fail between individuals/groups/nations, the result has often been physical, i.e. military conflict. One only has to consider the recent conflict in Iraq, and the continuing pressure on Iran and N Korea over WMDs, and Palestine/Lebanon over land.

    Here are two accounts which I think make it clear why the WWII conflict was imminent. Given all that we know about what was going on in the USSR and Germany in the 20s and 30s (the geography, economics, our own Hansard from 1919), why is it that officially recorded history of intentions ignored in favour of fantasies about what the Germans allegedly 'thought' etc? The Germans and Axis Powers (even the USSR to a degree in 1939) were fighting Jewish Bolshevism and its anarchistic backers. These were all anti-statists.

    This is why National Socialist Germany and Socialism in One Country USSR were so opposed to them. In fact, the USSR under Stalin's leadership, opposed International Bolsheviks/anarchists both at home, and in Spain (cf. POUM/CNT) in the 1930s. Stalin would not support the German communists because they were Trotskyites, i.e anarchists. Today, is it not the case that the latter are in power across the liberal-democracies?

  • Comment number 96.

    I don't know if the Beeb will cover it but in the seventy year anniversary WWII coverage how about a piece on Churchills handling of the UK Nazis and/or the trial of Lord Haw Haw.

    I believe that he was hung by the neck until dead.

  • Comment number 97.

    #78 jaded_Jean

    "mimpromptu (#76) Please re-read #74, carefully."

    Jaded_Jean just doesn't get the idea that the attempted arrogant- superior-intellectual image was shot to pieces long ago. You just need an "obey, pig dog" in there really.

    The lies are never corrected just reiterated as to do otherwise would cause the collapse of the ideological heaven based on the notion that Hitler, one of the most evil men in history, was a "peace lover".

  • Comment number 98.

    PERSECUTION: JUST IMAGINE

    thegangofone (#97) "Jaded_Jean just doesn't get the idea that the attempted arrogant- superior-intellectual image was shot to pieces long ago. You just need an "obey, pig dog" in there really."

    You and mimpromptu demonstrably do lots of this reading-in. I've explained to both of you how that is just making stuff up.

    Is it at all possible that others with your interests might make stuff up in much the same way? Do you see how a people with a high prevalence of such folk amidst them might be periodically encouraged to leave town, especially if they consider themselves rather special and those they abuse, not so?

    Is any of this at all conceivable to you? Do you see any connection to paranoid thinking, narcissism, and other Axis II, Cluster B Personality Disorder traits (DSM-IV). It's just a frequency in groups issue note (higher prevalence, see epidemiology, gene-barriers etc), it does not mean all people in the group would be like this, and it does not mean other groups do not have any people like this. It's about frequencies, and probabilities.

 

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