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Thursday 20 August 2009

Verity Murphy | 17:54 UK time, Thursday, 20 August 2009

Here is what is coming up in tonight's programme:

"Our justice system demands that judgment be imposed but compassion be available. Our beliefs dictate that justice be served, but mercy be shown."

So said Scottish Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill as he announced that for "these reasons, and these reasons alone" he had decided that terminally ill Lockerbie bomber Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi should be allowed to return to Libya.

But was it really for "these reasons, and these reasons alone" that Megrahi was released?

Tonight we have an interview with Mr MacAskill and will be looking at what other factors came into his decision, who was involved and the future political ramifications.

How will Megrahi's release affect Scottish and UK relations with Libya? And what about relations with the US, where many of the victims of the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 came from, and which had fiercely resisted the move?

Also tonight, Brian Hanrahan will have the latest on the Afghan presidential election, where counting is already under way.

And we will be discussing efforts to bring security to Afghanistan with General David Petraeus, the man behind the US troop surge in Iraq and the recent boosting of US forces in Afghanistan.

Plus, Laura Trevelyan reports on divisions within the Democratic Party over President Barack Obama's controversial plan to reform healthcare by providing cover for the 47m Americans who have no health insurance and driving down costs.

Those very supporters who worked so hard to elect Mr Obama are now furious because the White House has suggested it might soften its proposals - while conservative democrats say the existing plan costs too much and will not work.

Do join Gavin Esler at 10.30pm on BBC Two.


  • Comment number 1.

    "Our justice system demands that judgment be imposed but compassion be available. Our beliefs dictate that justice be served, but mercy be shown." - Huh ! - with no guilt and hence no justice needed, with zilch compassion and zero mercy - the UK Executes 600 innocent un-tried unborn babies every day. The BBC censors these executions. MR MacAskill, If you want to sound like an ancient wise sage administering justice amongst the simple people then stop the rivers of innocent baby blood first. MacAskill - Wise ! Sage like ! Just ! – a grubby deal was done in a smoky room period.

  • Comment number 2.

    On WATO today the American woman mentioned politics and oil (BP)dealing?? What about it NN? Is she right?

  • Comment number 3.

    can we have a independent public enquiry about Lockebie? Can we see the CIA files? Can we have an investigation into the two 'extra' bags that were put on 103? Can we have a look at the 'break in' into the secure freight area at Heathrow on the morning of the flight? Why were the local police 'stood down' on the night of the disaster with strangers running the show? The sick man who left Scotland was innocent....

  • Comment number 4.


    You cannot help suspecting he has a very small part. I listened to Mr MacMolehill (as in mountain out of) with mountain (sic) incredulity. I don't know what else he runs in Scotland, but his lack of self-awareness and restraint must surely be a danger to its competent execution?

    #1 Glenis - as one agent provocateur to another, I stand, alone as far as I know, for the rights of the unconceived. I suggest this transcends the rights of the pre-foetus.

    #2 Pithy - I heard that. Wouldn't it be nice if NN could drop the fetid donkey for such a topic?

    #3 leftie - yeah, all that and more. I see the Private Eye dossier is still available. Daren't say more - the Blogdog will have my post.

  • Comment number 5.

    Leftieoddbod, get a grip. Go and have a cup of tea.

  • Comment number 6.


    An Afghan general was on TV saying the UK should stop SENDING our 20 year old sons, and send his troops modern arms instead.

    It seems he fails to realise that we have a ready supply of eager young mercenaries - extreme paint-ballers - who WANT (no need to send) to confront his compatriots as 'the enemy' while doing the 'job they love'.

  • Comment number 7.

    #39 from previous page
    Mr Singleton
    I've never had problems of this sort with any other men but jj and mr graffiti, neither before settling in the UK at the age of 24 nor since leaving the University of London. It's not me who is repeating the situation, it is jj and mr graffiti.
    I consider myself very employable indeed but have decided to earn my living differently, perhaps in the media, for ex, what with my newly discovered ability to write swiftly, not only in prose but in rhyme too, as you may have noticed. I need some more time for that and, as you seem to know, having in the past called me Mad Madam Mim, have had problems with a few people trying to officially classify me as such, and particularly, I am convinced, jj and mr graffiti. So I need some more time to sort out this as well. Fortunately, I've found just and reasoned understanding of the situation I was forced into and am grateful for all the help I have been receiving in this respect.
    Re: male/female equality:
    Apart from the obvious biological differences, as human beings, I believe, we are equal.
    In my family, for example, men have always treated their women as their equals and with respect, sharing all the domestic tasks as needed. They have always cooked, hoovered, washed up, etc, everything was shared. Obviously, there may be relationships where the woman will do most of the cooking because she is simply better at it than her man but it may equally be the other way round. As far as work is concerned, women in my family always earned their own money being very capable and clever ladies. So, please Mr Singleton, don't waste your time trying to justify men like jj and mr graffiti who've been pestering me for about 23 years now, causing nothing but havoc and even destruction wherever I am.

  • Comment number 8.

    Having read Glenis and JJs posts of Wednesday and now todays, (I'm still mystified as to how JJs post get through the mods so quickly) I've come to the conclusion you both want the same.

    Glenis objects to the abortion of 600 foetus a day in the UK.

    JJ wants our indigenous birthrate (TFR) to rise above the current non replacable level.

    Why don't you get together and lobby your MPs. No more abortions would raise our birthrate to the level of immigration into england at the moment, so we wouldn't need all these foreign people.

    You could also both apply at the same time for the new marriage contract in Afganistan put into operation here. So more rapes and no abortion would raise our TFR no end.

    Glenis are you this Glenis

  • Comment number 9.

    What JUSTICE would that be?
    What should I tell my Children about the Britain that DESTROYED OUR HOME SWEET HOME?
    What should I tell my Children about BOTCH-UP LUCIFER?
    What do I tell my Children about SANTA'S NASTY LIST?
    And because the STATE has REJECTED EVERY SPIRITUAL drop of my matter, how do I tell my Children how CHILDISH DROP-OUT Lucifer is?
    That you were instrumental in DESTROYING OUR HOME SWEET HOME, I, for the VERY FIRST TIME EVER, choose to get on SANTA'S NASTY LIST.
    Easily done eh!
    I EARN MY CHRISTMAS & the coming one will be very lean & cheap since Britain acted FAR WORSE THAN SCROOGE.
    Britain locked me up for telling Britain that there are 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse.
    Lucifer, did I do wrong because there are still 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse.
    My NAMESAKE City is now my next HOME SWEET HOME Settlement.
    Loved by my Parents,
    Dawson City, Alaska will be far FRIENDLIER than Jerusalem.
    BE WARNED ....
    I've already been shunned by FACEBOOK[The Brides of Christ].
    I can go another 1000 years without Marriage.
    Will it bother Lucifer & somebody's Jews?
    And my GOOD advice to my Children traumatised by the irredeemable State, is to NEVER WATCH BBC again.
    Jerusalem is on very shakey ground with me because Dawson City, Alaska is by far the more PROSPEROUS.
    God will have to clear his nose a bit more for the very poor greeting I Christ got from my visit to Jerusalem. I HAD TO GREET MYSELF. I left Jerusalem SPOOKY.
    Can Jerusalem COMPETE?
    Will there be Justice for Jerusalem if I can JUSTIFY Dawson City, Alaska?
    Now is there TRUER PROPHECIES?
    Can I get GOD to change His mind?
    Jerusalem gets the GLORY FOR DOING NOTHING.
    I might get a 3 piece Throne from Dawson City.
    Is Jerusalem GOOD?
    GOD TV is GOOD to Jerusalem & that must suit me.
    Ain't Justice rotten to the INNOCENT REGARDLESS.
    Is my Home City Liverpool fit for any Monarchy other than the Devil?
    Is the BBC only fit for the Devil?

    Try looking down your nose at me now Lucifer.
    I could just take the Throne of Israel to Dawson City, Alaska.
    If I don't want the BBC, then the BEEB will have leadership problems on Devil's Island without a signal.
    In my KINGDOMS, other stuff is BETTER.
    REJECTING mucks it up for Catholic Limbo.
    Strictly speaking the BBC shouldn't have any problems but, manky contracts with a dodgy crooner means the hands of NASTY Catholic Limbo are tied to something very HOT & and smelling of BRIMSTONE.
    BRIMSTONE Britain just ain't that GREAT eh.
    I don't lose FRIENDS like you Lucifer.
    My CONSERVATIVES are poised to TAKE POWER because of the POWER I AM.
    The BBC, clearly devoid of MY COMPASSION, continue to REJECT it.
    You want a deal for the Devil do you Catholic Limbo?
    Try getting a deal for it then.
    If it isn't HUMAN, IT IS AN IT & IT IS SOULESS!
    I read FAITHFULLY that something VERY NASTY is set to BEFALL DISBELIEVERS.
    I'm only GLAD I'm on GOD'S SIDE.
    Now, let me get back to my script for HELLBOY 3D.
    Deny all you want BBC. You're making the GODDESS Venus look very ugly.
    Is GODDESS Venus one of The Brides of Christ?
    I maintain from the EVIDENCE I have left at FACEBOOK[The Brides of Christ], I am not at all IMPRESSED.
    Facebook timestamps postings & the response through the TOP Social Networking site proves ALL WOMEN ARE A BIT SHORT.
    Now you've rejected my PETTICOAT VENGEANCE, I expect something SPOOKY to REAP HAVOC.

  • Comment number 10.


    Is she in collusion with Glenis? A well disguised insertion! Just what Dr JJ ordered.

    Hilarious piece Lizzie - well reasoned.

  • Comment number 11.

    from mimpromptu
    #7 error - it should have been #43

  • Comment number 12.


    I would be gob smacked if that artist posted on here, in fact I'll smack my own gob if it is. Art career suicide to mix it with the nutters AND with your own name on here . But then the artist says they are *commercial*

    oh dear.

  • Comment number 13.


    Hi mim

    There is a good deal of charm about you. Stay positive and good luck.

  • Comment number 14.

    Perhaps the reason for all those nutters' rants being passed by the mods is to collect evidence which might one day come very useful when confronted by justice. Justice can sometimes prove impossible to obtain, as experienced by Celtic Lion and Pithywriter, but I believe that it can be just, nevertheless. They've been spilling beans like nobody's business, particularly in the last few days.

  • Comment number 15.

    #8.ecolizzy Wrote At 8:44pm on 20 Aug 2009, ecolizzy wrote:
    Having read Glenis and JJs posts of Wednesday and now today’s, I've come to the conclusion you both want the same.
    Well ecolizzy, I'll agree with you if next time your getting murdered in the street and I save your innocent life you make a similar accusation - 'You are just like that Rape'm or Starve'm TFR JJ guy - I was nearly dead then and the population would have gone down by one ! - eco heaven !
    You'll have to make a similar accusation against the seat-belt law makers, death row defence lawyers...there is a universe of difference - it's called morality - between legalised rape to further population increase and demographic warfare and saving the lives of innocent people from being murdered or killed.
    Ah you may object but these are people and they are only foetus (Latin for offspring, little one).
    Well that's an old song :
    sometimes in the not to distant past the words were :
    ‘…but these are people and they are only blacks’
    sometimes it was ‘…only Jews’, one day it maybe ‘…only ecolizzy’
    re re Glenis are you this Glenis [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator] - no I'm the Glenis from

  • Comment number 16.


    Look up Trivers on deception. Think Iraq - Iran - Afghanistan.

    Bees and ants don't 'conspire'. Nor do cuckoos. Genes drive behaviour.

  • Comment number 17.

    mimpromptu (#14) Is it at all possible that what's being posted is a) true and b) supported by lots of evidence?

  • Comment number 18.

    There can only be one logical explanation to Megrahi's release.
    Oil and Gas from Libya are worth more than US relations.
    Must be a damn big deal, perhaps enough to put the Russians noses out of joint too, as they thought they had the European gas supply sewn up.
    Hmm, that's put energy ahead of the Russians AND Americans.
    A really damn big deal, this is serious geopolitics.
    Come on Newsnight, time to do some serious journalism here...

  • Comment number 19.

    I don't support terrorism in anyway. I realise and empathise with the hurt of the families and relatives involved. However as a society we must rise above terrorism and it was morally right and ethically justified to release this man. As a people and a Nation we have to be seen to rise above our personal feelings and do what is right. We are a Christian people and it is fit and right to allow someone to die humanely.

  • Comment number 20.

    I feel quite cross that Gavin Esler heckled MacAskill so much that he simply recanted the phrases that he used in his original statement. Although I am always impressed by the professionalism of the journalists on Newsnight, tonight I felt his interview was loaded with his own agenda. I would have been really interested to know if Macaskill had struggled with this decision, and its potential consequences. I think that those opposed to the action would have been cheering Esler. A missed opportunity as whether you agree with the decision or not, I think on the surface it was very brave and courageous, and not to be under estimated. Time will tell.

  • Comment number 21.

    Good evening all.

    Lockerbie in the sun.

    Perhaps the next time a self righteous American wishes to appear on the programme could you ask them about one Luis Posada Carilles. He, it is said, blew-up a plane killing 73 people in 1976. [and is a self confessed assassin] These victims were mere Latin Americans and there were only 73 killed but he found a safe haven in the USA. A funny old world indeed.

  • Comment number 22.

    I cannot believe that what I am listening to and watching is unbiased reporting regarding all the fuss about releasing a dying man to spend his last days with his family. Thank goodness that Scottish politicians have a little more integrity and honesty than our own or our American counterparts..oh and a little more humanity.We all know that there is so much more to know about Lockerbie ....why don't you really investigate all that...or aren't you allowed to. Well done Scotland for standing up for yourselves and not being supine to the all global all American globalisation.

  • Comment number 23.

    Is 'Keynet' human? Has he/she/it ever heard of, or experienced compassion?
    Or is he/she/it just a heap of cynicism

  • Comment number 24.

    I strongly agree with those who have criticised Gavin Essler's endless heckling of the Scottish Minister. Do the Newsnight team not understand the nature of compassion? Clearly the brave SNP administration do, & will not bow to the baying of those who seek only revenge. What a pity the SNP shows no inclination to stand in English constituencies at the general election next year.

  • Comment number 25.


    I was puzzled at Gavin's Paxophilia in interviewing the American. But on consideration: (1) I suppose this is 'edgy' in the Newsnight eye, and (2) Paxo wins awards.

    My 'feel' for Gavin is that this would not be his style-of-choice. Perhaps I am wrong. Does Newsnight eat up its presenters and spit them into the attack-dog mould? A sad day, in the last days of responsible broadcasting, if this is so.

  • Comment number 26.

    "...In Scotland, we are a people who pride ourselves on our humanity. It is viewed as a defining characteristic..."

    Beautifully put.

    Humanity and compasion seem to be missing judging by the reaction to this in the U.S.(and Gavin Essler) Does keeping a dying man (whose guilt is doubted by many) in a cell really ease the pain of the friends and relatives of the victims?

    I am concerned by the biased and nagging tone taken by Newsnight's interviewer Gavin Esler who seemed hellbent by his questions (tirade) to belittle MacAskill. Newsnight (BBC News generally) seem to take on American opinion for their own stance and then aggressively interview anyone who takes an opposing stand.

    Some say that this was an Iranian act after a U.S warship shot down an Iran Air passenger aircraft in the Gulf when the U.S was supporting Saddam's war against Iran. Whether true or not, I can not remember the U.S showing any remorse or sympathy for the deaths of all those on that flight. I beleive there should be an inquiry into the whole affair. Many (in Scotland) were hoping that Magrahi would have been granted an appeal as the conviction was based on a questionable idntification in Malta.

    The U.S has been paid billions of dollars by Libya in compensation. In return Libya has been allowed back into the International scene and having oil helps.

    Watch how vitriolic some of our cousins who we have a "special relationship" get.
    Today Scotland had the guts to say No to the U.S (and showed that humanity and compassion are better that Vengeance and Vindictiveness) Only wish Those at Westminster had the same sort of courage.

  • Comment number 27.

    For the first time ever, I've been prompted to come here to comment - about Gavin Esler's interview with Macaskill. Hardly what anyone would call neutral and impartial. Without a doubt, Macaskill won the day - he retained his dignity and composure throughout, whereas Esler got hotter under the collar by the second and was visibly angry. Shame on you, Esler.

  • Comment number 28.

    from mimpromptu
    another word that gets jj going is 'essential', especially if it is wispered

  • Comment number 29.

    Please the SNP are still politicians. I have dealt with them, some are not very nice. There will be agendas.

  • Comment number 30.

    A Bumpy Future

    JadedJean can't give it a rest,
    claiming her thoughts are surely the best.
    Then zinging us with the ironic jest
    that genes drive (her) behaviour.

    For JJ the gene must be obeyed
    so she is the person it has made;
    compelled forever more to upbraid,
    she not a likely saviour.

    Our genes give us the shape of our head.
    Now genes drive us to fall out of bed?
    Bumps and lumps are there to be read;
    phrenology's back in favour.

  • Comment number 31.

    from mimpromptu
    for the last time on jj's favourite symbols:
    garden gnomes, 52 and water (especially if bottled in one of those small plastic ones)

  • Comment number 32.


    How will Megrahi's release affect Scottish and UK relations with Libya? And what about relations with the US, where many of the victims of the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 came from, and which had fiercely resisted the move?

    1)I think that the relations between the 2 countries and Libya will improved over time...But, The relationship between the U.K. and the United States will soured a bit...

    =Dennis Junior=

  • Comment number 33.

    #30 from mimpromptu
    Welcome to the poetic re/evolution club

  • Comment number 34.


    Also tonight, Brian Hanrahan will have the latest on the Afghan presidential election, where counting is already under way.

    From the information on the news websites; the Afghan Presidential Elections were mired in violence...I hope that the results will be ready in the earliest probable moment....

    =Dennis Junior=

  • Comment number 35.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 36.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 37.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 38.

    from mimpromptu
    Good morning
    21 August
    before going to sleep

    No verse for tonight
    Although I yet might
    Come up with something early tomorrow
    And make a few brows further to furrow
    When I wrote to Obama I didn't intend to suggest that the Democrats should follow the British NHS at all but have yet to understand what is meant by their public health insurance option.
    on waking up

    The nose could be an object of many a tale
    And Nicolai Gogol wrote about it well
    In his short story entitled 'The Nose'
    It's well worth a read of nose choosing to pose

    As quite a high ranking official
    Running away from his position facial.
    Shostakowich used it for one of his operas.
    Well worth to read about it, Syres

    And Ladies in Wikipedia where it is described
    With good precision. Hope that you might
    One day enjoy the music as well
    Enchanted by those two Russians' magical spell.

    For Gogol's genre used in the story,
    Magical realism raised to fabulous glory,
    Is what the writer excelled at so well
    Leaving behind him his magical spell.

  • Comment number 39.

    #38 from mimpromptu
    on reflection, I would propose the last word of my rhythm & rhyme musings to be changed to 'trail', making it therefore read as:
    For Gogol's genre used in the story,
    Magical realism raised to fabulour glory,
    Is what the writer excelled at so well
    Leaving behind him his magical trail.

    And for seconds, I thought I might as well add the following:

    He also wrote on dead souls, you know,
    About a creep I won’t talk below.
    But it’s worth finding out more
    About the vileness of dead souls and mole.

    Rodion Shchedrin wrote music to that,
    About how life lead by the mad
    Can in the end sever the grips
    Of nutters, bonkers, and those of the creeps.

  • Comment number 40.


    This is what happens when those who see themselves as special consider themselves to have been publicly wronged.

    It was an unusual outburst from Gavin Esler given that there is some room for doubt about it being a safe convicion. The female rabbi from the USA completed the picture.

    Highly vindicative vengeance, and a an absence of compassion for those of others groups? CYP21/NCAH (the HPA syndrome)?

    The PANAM flight was returning to NYC (see #5).

  • Comment number 41.


    Gastric Miliband (D) has joined 'Roy Rogers' Reagan and 'Dead-or-Alive' Bush in the sloganeering annals. They gave us 'The Axis of Evil' and 'Evil Empire' to which Miliband-D has added 'THE BAD LANDS'.

    If anyone resident in the border area of Afghanistan/Pakistan is reading this: HE DOES NOT REPRESENT ME! Please do not judge the Hard Working Rational Briton by the utterances of globe-trotting (and if I may say so, here today, gone tomorrow) multi-untalented politicians.

    At 72, caught up in this Armpit of Arrogance, I feel bound to stay and give these upstart nobodies an internal kicking. To that end, when our cringing-dog government deigns to call a general election, I shall be on the street proclaiming: SPOIL PARTY GAMES.

  • Comment number 42.

    I can't think why Newsnight bothered to interview anyone about the the release of Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi. Gavin Esler's mind was clearly fully closed and so a dogmatic monologue delivered with an attitude of faux outrage would have done just as well.

  • Comment number 43.


    Tasty seconds there mim.

  • Comment number 44.

  • Comment number 45.


    Barrie (#41) "The poor have been rebels but they never have been anarchists; they have more interest than anyone else in there being some decent government; the poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The Poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all .

    -G. K. Chesterton"

    If you have not rerad it, look up LIGHTS, CAMERA, DEMOCRACY! On the conventions of a make-believe republic by Lewis H. Lapham on the web, you'll find a pdf. He bagin the article with the above quote. It isn't thesource of what I have been posting in recent times, but it's certainly consistent with it. It is why representative democracy is engineered to serve an elite and why the USSR and PRC were so critical of it.

    Also have a look at this.

    I hope to be practically highlighting something about human behaviour in general, using a group with higher prevalence in order to make a point epidemiologically. That is, it is not limited to one group, but where there are statistical differences, stereotypes, or class concepts, emerge as inductive signs/signals/indicators/warnings.

    As always, some(x)=not(all(x)) and all(x)=not(some(x)) etc. That caveat will go unheeded by many readers alas. Only some will spot that these are the logical quantifiers which are essentiual to rational deductive inference. They fail in intensional contexts.

  • Comment number 46.

    #13 from previous page
    Thank you for your comment yesterday which I've until now missed. I must have been on my bike when you sent it. Whatever, it made me blush.
    #43 & #44
    Thank you for that interesting link, Streetphotobeing!
    Re: my work as a sex machine working for jj the pimp - I was wondering where in the queue he has placed himself? Is he perhaps waiting until he is 64, with his pockets full of dosh earned by my hard labour?
    Re: rich and poor
    I don't know, Streetphotobeing, whether you're rich or whether you're poor, all I know is that I don't care. Wealth of an individual has never been an issue with me, for as ever as I remember. My predecessors were once quite rich, then they lost everything during the Second World War but they remained the same people, even if somewhat, obviously, scarred for life by their experiences.
    I used to know seriously rich people,as well as well established professionals, when I worked in a restaurant in Putney in the late 70ies and early 80ies, with a few becoming quite close friends. I never had an inferiority complex in this respect nor did they ever look down on me or indeed the other employees. I have now lost touch with them, alas, but am hoping that one day we may meet again. Some of them, in fact, tried actively to help me, feeling perhaps that I was worth helping. For that I'd love to thank them. All manifestations of this sort have stayed with me and helped me keep going.
    Until one of these days, then, Streetphotobeing!

  • Comment number 47.

    re# 45 Yesterday we had 'the irrational nature of inductive inference' in an attempt to give intellectual legitimacy to Islam. Today "rational deductive inference's and intensional contexts" are being used in an attempt to lend intellectual legitimacy to the USSR !
    Back in history the picture was the Koran and the sword, in modern times it's the Koran and the Kalashnikov. The picture of the inter-Nazi USSR was the clenched fist backed by the Red Army (while it's sister Nazi Germany had the Jack boot). The only argument any of these lot had that was worth listening to was 'Do as I say or I'll kill you'. They didn’t even believe it themselves - none of them could answer the question 'How you like it if I did the same to you' – as you’ve seen JJ still hasn’t signed his Rescue Contract.
    Many members of these groups are embarrassingly aware that they have no more intellectual legitimacy than a street gang. Hence the demand for pseudo-Intellectual legitimacy – a demand JJ attempts to supply ‘…It is why representative democracy is engineered to serve an elite and why the USSR and PRC were so critical of it’. – You give a ‘why’ that is not the why of a street gang beating up someone not in their gang – that’s the only why needed.

  • Comment number 48.


    Thanks JJ - I will follow the links and leads. However, I am still left helpless by the special language of your discipline.

    You repeatedly make the case for PRECISION in language, but if arriving at that precision deprives me of understanding - unless I am seriously atypical (truth of which is unknown*) it is to be deplored, and re-thought unless, of course, the intent is to create a limited elite! (;o)

    *In my youth, I read a description of the 'differential gear' found on all cars in the early 90s; I read it over and over. I just could not understand, even with a diagram, how it worked. The INSTANT I took one apart, it was obvious.

  • Comment number 49.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 50.


    Who is hiding behind 'streetphotobeing'? The words 'first stone' 'sin' and 'cast' come to mind.

    That's what it's all about. (:o)

  • Comment number 51.

    Nos 51 - *Who is hiding behind 'streetphotobeing'?*

    Well Barrie

    press F11 and go for it:-

  • Comment number 52.


    We used to use our superior weaponry to fight 'Arabs' when they had nothing comparable. If they had the effrontery to attack us we would bomb a village. . .


    When Sadam killed Kurds he was “killing his own”
    as we’d cobbled Iraq to one nation
    but when we bombed Kurds in that old Afghan war
    we were gods: it was termed “visitation”.
    We used to braise Germans in massive job-lots
    but not without justification;
    those we char in Baghdad will bring forth New Iraq
    Phoenix-like from the fires of cremation.
    Once more gods face-up as their proxies deploy
    with no difference except designation
    and unspeakable acts meted out at arms-length
    bring ethical defenestration.
    We fight on to win, as our honour demands
    righteous war brooks no cowardly cessation;
    while history-book shelves of unheeded hindsight
    hold the line for the next generation.

  • Comment number 53.

    #48 - If you are asking JJ to reset his Random Word Generating programme from pompous pretentious intellectual level to something a bit lower then you will be able to understand what he says... and then understand he is saying nothing - I'm not sure he'll be too keen to oblige.

  • Comment number 54.


    isn't the 'compassion' that he is not handed over to relatives? anything more is super compassion sainthood?


    given the fierce opposition to the the creation of the nhs the usa should expect the same lack of compassion? they might consider funding it by a national lottery?

  • Comment number 55.


    Seems unlikely the mods will allow the link. What I do and therefore who I am can be found on flickr.

  • Comment number 56.

    #49 Jaded_Jean

    "Politics - be careful who you find fault with on the internet, they may come to get you..;-)"

    More likely the far right BNP types like yourself will invent something as the BNP London Assembly Member did over three non-existent local murders.

    "Finding fault" means in your case basing your conceptions of race on outdated and scientifically refuted notions and having a bizarre mythological attitude to Stalin ejecting "anarchists and Trotskyites" in the thirties. That number included Jews. There were also people of varying height and hair colour etc.

    For you though that is hard evidence of the "Jewish Communist International" - not to be confused with the "Average height and average weight Communist International".

    People unused to those with tendencies National Socialist diarrhoea should note Jaded_Jean is the "high end" of far right thought. Imagine the low end like the Baby P batterer and his brother.

  • Comment number 57.

  • Comment number 58.

    A RACE OF BRUTES RESEMBLING MEN - A YOKEL (Definition: 'Yahoo') #55

    Since the time Yahoo - true to their roots - hijacked my homepage every time I booted-up and refused (with copious flim-flam) to desist, I touch nothing Yahoo.

    You will have to remain an ano-minniemouse (as Pertwee would say).

  • Comment number 59.

    #50 barriesingleton

    "Who is hiding behind 'streetphotobeing'? The words 'first stone' 'sin' and 'cast' come to mind."

    I am feeling rather lazy so I can't be bothered trying to decipher what your daily "literary" trash means but I assume that you are trying to imply that those who would disagree with the vile tenets of National Socialism are the "running dogs of the Jews".

    The "Jewish Communist International" is as real as the boogey-man. Not as substantial as a mirage. The vast warehouses of "evidence" that must have accumulated since Hitlers profound psychological issues are not offered as there is none.

    Despite the poison that you people drop suggesting you are "agnostic" on the Holocaust nobody has ever turned up at a Nazi war criminal trial and shown that there was no Holocaust. You won't be going to the Djemjanjuk trial and neither will anybody else.

    Its a cult mentality that you people adopt where the skewed mythology reflects your emotional flaws and intellectual inadequacy. You probably even know that no matter how much propaganda you have swallowed.

    The far right flits from one insubstantial argument to the next knowing that any close examination of the facts will leave them exposed.

    Nasty little Iago's who don't really know why they hate - they do and they enjoy doing it.

    Doubtless the next line of defence is to call those who rely on science, philosophy, law and logic - plus common sense - to utterly refute what you say as "anarchists and Trotskyites".

    But the reality is Hitler created National Socialism as a populist jackdaw stealing other peoples clothes as needed.

    The bottom line is that National Socialism is, as Bertrand Russell suggested, no more than a replacement aristocracy. The "ideology" is no more than a transparent concoction that justifies tyranny and helps to create group hysteria.

    For an understanding of hysteria just read Jaded_Jeans posts on most days.

  • Comment number 60.


    Did NN reply ?

  • Comment number 61.

    #25 barriesingleton

    "A sad day, in the last days of responsible broadcasting, if this is so."

    When somebody who probably literally admires Goebbels and reveres Hitler etc starts talking about "responsible broadcasting" after his daily evacuation of far right racial nonsense onto the page its hard not imagine the poster was making a joke.

    Don't believe that for a second!

  • Comment number 62.

    shame on you, don't do nasty, that's Jeremy's brief and he's good at it but you come over as a nice guy who has been given a studio directive which boils down to give him hell and you don't do that stuff, you are a nice man, I've seen you and you are always 'nice' and my gran likes you stop doing all that confrontational stuff as it doesn't suit but if you want and want to mix with the serious heavy guys interview Jack Straw about what he really knows about 103, and Tony about 45 minute warnings and dodgy dossiers...not up to it? Well, Jeremy had no luck so a lightweight...sorry 'nice' man like you would have no chance

  • Comment number 63.

    #9 angelripe

    I have a tendency to view any odd posters as being another far right login - apologies if so.

    What caught my eye was lines like:

    "Will it bother Lucifer & somebody's Jews?"

    Also you say

    "And my GOOD advice to my Children traumatised by the irredeemable State, is to NEVER WATCH BBC again"

    and of course you are posting on the BBC.....

    To cut to the chase
    "Now you've rejected my PETTICOAT VENGEANCE, I expect something SPOOKY to REAP HAVOC."

    suggests to me that you need restraints and froth at the mouth.

    Barriesingleton has a "brother in hell" and is far right so you will probably get on well with him.

  • Comment number 64.

    POOR GAVIN - BUT I HAVE AN IDEA . . . (#62)

    Nice one Oddbo! Both barrels and the kitchen sink.

    Setting aside the problem of whether Gavin has a 'Mr Hyde side' or the NN people have worked him over, I find his diction crisp and clear. (I always cheer when he is announced.)
    So why not leave all the violence to Paxo and fellow travellers, and APPOINT GAVIN AS KIRSTY'S DICTION COACH?

    PS When questioning Straw and Blair, don't forget IDS; to be questioned on why he believed the most transparent liar in recent political time.

  • Comment number 65.

    #60 from mimpromptu
    As you've suggested in one of your postings, I have now sent a complaint about jj which I shall paste below. Hopefully the mods will let it through. I think this time they will send me a direct reply. If not, I will have to go further. I can't possibly stand any longer for his threats to be issued towards anybody because of me. /As you know, I have developed unshakable confidence about what I stand for./
    I believe this post describes or encourage activities which could endanger the safety or well-being of others for the following reason:
    Well, first of all, JJ sends rather explicit suggestions that I'm working as some kind of whore earning money(?), then streetphotobeing sends a like suggesting that this sort of electronic behaviour could be punishable to which JJ responds with threats towards politicians. As you must have gathered by now, apart from other things, I have been involved in politics hands on so to speak and find this particular posting by JJ particularly worrying. I don't care that much what about his rants about me but will not stand for any threats directed by him towards others which he is probably doing because of lethal jealousy he has developed with regard to myself. I would be most grateful if he could be checked out and stopped as soon as possible. *Newsnight investigators have all my details so please feel free to contact me by whatever means you feel is best.
    P.S. I suppose I should have said 'You' rather than Newsnight investigators but this is of no consequence.

  • Comment number 66.

    #52. At 11:57am on 21 Aug 2009, barriesingleton wrote:
    - Can't argue with you there - I'm against this whoever does it.
    My next sentence says : Even if we do it.
    I have big gripe against the 'we' part though - It is arranged for us - 'We' - to have selected Tom, Dick and Harry candidates for us to chose from in a 5 yr rolling dictatorship. Occasionally one slips through the net with a bit of 'We' in him. The whip system whereby Bilderberg instructs Cabinets and Prime ministers to whip 'our' Tom, Dick and Harry MP's to voting for what ‘they’ have decided neutralises him while Bilderberg also controls the public access to info through it's control of the press and either ignores him or calls him a nutter - and then 'We' get blamed for the ensuing mess. Mind you, maybe 'We' deserve it : after all, wife beating is the number one sport in this country, there would be no Heroin trade in Afghanistan if 'We' didn't buy Heroin and 'We' take 600 of our own unborn babies every day to an abortionist to kill them in cold blood. While I’m certain that the 'remove the log from our own eye' is the policy direction to take, in the meantime, I'll not have it that an Islamic or Communist 'Do as I say or I'll kill you' is an improvement. As a starter for 10, as a lot of wife beating and abortion has financial stress as a large factor, I suggest ‘We’ fix our financial system by using NEFS – Net Export Financial Simulation or something like it.

  • Comment number 67.


    For me Mim the important thing is that you can feel free to post your poems without any harassment or made to feel in any way inferior and therefore put off posting. My concern has been that the mods are not doing enough on that front.

  • Comment number 68.

    GlenisDevereux (#53) "If you are asking JJ to reset his Random Word Generating programme from pompous pretentious intellectual level to something a bit lower then you will be able to understand what he says... and then understand he is saying nothing - I'm not sure he'll be too keen to oblige."

    If you don't understand what's written, perhaps you have something to learn?

    If everything has to put into words/sentences which you already understand, what is the likelihood of you learning anything new?

    You appear to resort to abuse when you do not understand what you read. You certainly don't understand my posts. You have something in common with other posters there. If you can't be bothered to do some work trying to understand what you do not already understand, I suggest you just ignore my posts.

  • Comment number 69.

    # 60 Street Photo Being

    No, not as yet. Contacted them through this page

    On the Newsnight Investigations email.

    If any of the regular bloggers would ask them to investigate it would be appreciated. It would be best with so much evidence involved if NN did an investigation and interviewed some of them involved, and put it out as one programme or special.

  • Comment number 70.

    #68 JJ says "If everything has to put into words/sentences which you already understand, what is the likelihood of you learning anything new?"
    or, and more likely : ... If everything you said was put into words/sentences which even your fans understand then they may understand you have nothing much to say - look like my 'inductive reasoning' that 'I'm not sure he'll be too keen to oblige' seems rather accurate.
    Re "I suggest you just ignore my posts..." - If I do that I might miss your Rescue contract being signed. We can wait.

  • Comment number 71.


    What was your home page about ?

  • Comment number 72.

    I more than appreciate your concern for my freedom of expression here but have never felt upset about some of the bloggers either complaining about their inclusion or poking fun at me. After all, they don't have to read them just as I don't read quite a lot of their postings.
    What I do not like, and have had enough of, is other people, whoever they may be, being threatened or suffering because of the 'game' originally invented by jj and mr graffiti. The whole thing not only does not make any sense but has also become totally out of proportion.
    Plus, I know exactly why jj has treated me like a sex machine but all the actions I have undertaken in the last couple of years or so have been done on my part with full consciousness, so if he is planning to dig any dirt about it, it is not going to get him very far. I've suspected money changing hands for a long time but he has now confirmed it himself, the pervert that he is.

  • Comment number 73.

    # 24

    What about Corby again?, there might still be some SNP activists there who could put up a candidate and other parts of the UK might support the politics of the SNP?

  • Comment number 74.

    barrie (#45) "I am still left helpless by the special language of your discipline."

    I'm not sure what you're referring to above, but where new 'things' or processes are discovered/established (the pupose of research and peer review), or better (more comprehensive) ways of describing familiar things/processes are discovered/established through research, scientists coin new predicates. As a consequence, there's no alternative but to learn the resultant new languages as the new terms are not backwards translatable (for what should be obvious reasons). A course in mathematical logic helps when looking at languages technically/functionally. It happens in all the sciences. If one can't analyse a linguistic entitlies into their logical components, the chances are that one isn't saying or grasping anything rational. There's a place for the irrational, but it has nothng to do with truth (science) and physical reality.

    This is why we use computers and computer languages more and more (though many don't see this) for so much of our problem solving today. Natural Language generally isn't fit for the purpose. I haven't a clue where many of the posters to this blog get their 'ideas'. They are dangerously out of touch in my view. There are a lot of them about. I hope I'm successfully highlighting that.... ;-)

  • Comment number 75.

    #30 from mimpromptu
    Welcome to the poetic re/evolution club

    For kind mimpromptu,
    a big Thank You,

  • Comment number 76.


    Am I right in my perception that the postings on this forum are becoming increasingly aberrant - matched only by the aberrant moderating parameters of the Blogdog? I hasten to add that at least two individuals find me aberrant (at least two) so I 'belong' also.

    Is it some Newsnight miasma, born of edginess, suckled by aggression and 'finished' in the School of Banality, that has seeped into the very cracks of cyberspace? Whatever - The Newsnight Blog would seem to be a microcosm of Mad Britain. Whether that is a good or bad thing, I am at a loss to determine! A little help here?

  • Comment number 77.


    barrie (#76) "Am I right in my perception that the postings on this forum are becoming increasingly aberrant"


    But then, I've gone to some lengths to document why it's happening. Much the same happened in Weimar Germany and the USA has been going downhill for longer because of the larger numbers concentrated in NYC and the East Coast. There's a very long history to this anarchism. :-(

  • Comment number 78.


    So what your saying is that you can predict severe weather events many years even decades before the event and you have submitted this ability to NN and they havent replied. Guess if you post on here in the way that you have - they are not likely to ever reply but do keep us informed if they do. It does sound interesting and I do hope the Fuzz dont duff you up.

    I suspect you are talented, intelligent and perhaps suffering the frustration of being ignored, hence the online behaviour. Well there are legion of very talented artists suffering the same due to feudal art world. Its one of the most difficult thing to come to terms with, imagine Van Gough and Vermeer.

  • Comment number 79.

    streetphotobeing (#78) Some people are ignored because they're deluded and can't be helped. Others are ignored because they state things which some people don't want to hear (or be heard), even though they should.

    For example, in Ponzi schemes, one has to look at both the earlier contributors and the late contributors. The early contributors can do very well in the long run, even if they lose their original deposit at the end. It's the late contributors who are hardest hit. Now, look into the 50 billion dollar Madoff Ponzi Scheme, and try to assess which group, if any, may have dominated the the early contributors and which group, if any, may have disproportionately comprised the later contributors. Is there any significant difference?

    Why might that be interesting? How does group competition work? Is it just business?

  • Comment number 80.

    addendum (#79) "the investors can be forced to return the value of any withdrawals made during the previous six years, which is the statute of limitations in New York."

    Alas, the Madoff scheme ran for a couple of decades allegedly, and as The Forward's article says (others made this point a while back too, hence my links to articles on deception as a group strategy to secure resources. Recall the BRCA1 and BRAC2 gene mutation prevalence by ethnic group and calls for donations when one group has about a 60% risk whilst other groups only 15% risk - where's the ribbon for prostate cancer which hits Black males more, they comprise a US group at least 7x the size of the former)?

    To some, if they are not directly affected by something, they just don't care... Some count on this, along with many being cognitively challenged. To some, the more cognitively challenged the outgroup, the better, as this facilitates domestic colonization and exploitation. In fact, the more politically incorrect they can make recognition of any group differences, the better it is for their acquisition of resources at their expense.

  • Comment number 81.

    #78 Street Photo Being

    Close. It is like people think they interface with a computer via the operating system. Which is not strictly true. The computer uses machine language and binary.

    You say 'predict severe weather events'. I never said that. A flooding event is a combination of land use changes, deforestation, concreting over etc. Any rainfall then enters the hydrological system as a surge.

    Then a changing climate oscillates with extremes. When these combine you get a criticality. This is determined not by predicting 'severe weather'. But by converting the combined system of socio-economic and ecological into a common denominator of entropy inversions.

    Strangely I have been likened to Van Gogh. I had a girlfriend many years ago who was a piano player in the lounges and bars of the top hotels in London. Someone could request a tune and though she had never heard it, she would play it. She told me it was psychology. As long has she could get someone to hum three notes, she would play them back then construct the tune.

    Some evenings she would try and show me all these things Bach did sitting at a grand piano. Though she wasn't a scientist she understood my work. She used to show me the progression of my work on entropy in relation to things by Bach called cannons etc.

    She used to play me Starry Starry Night by Don Maclean, but take the basic progression, then do these things called inversions etc in the way if Bach had the original melody he would have constructed it.

    I have to write here on economics and ecology like a windows operating system. because if I wrote in the underlying 'machine code' very few would understand.

    This was why I was fascinated when you posted the keyboard version of Living for the Weekend by Hard Fi.

    Within academia it is not Van Gogh but Einstein I have been likened to. You are pretty close with 'feudal art world'. DEFRA stipulated that the current generation of UK climate models (they were the funders) had to be compatible with the existing Hadley Centre models and methodology.

    So even though there are other systems with greater potential for predicting complex events. They are excluded not because of their validity etc etc. It is because they are excluded by political decisions rather than underlying scientific reasoning.

    You pay with your TV licence and with your taxes for politicians to appear on NN to give opinion on economy and climate change etc. People and politicians do not appear on NN to give an opinion on the structural strength of the wing of a Typhoon Euro Fighter. Because these can be determined by rational scientific analysis.

    A PM will be covered by the media say attending a flood event. Looking compassionate etc. Good for poll ratings. But what the public are not told by the media that flood was known about years before and could have been prevented.

  • Comment number 82.

    #59 thegangofone wrote :Despite the poison that you people drop suggesting you are "agnostic" on the Holocaust nobody has ever turned up at a Nazi war criminal trial and shown that there was no Holocaust - There was a recent case in Germany where the Defence lawyer was sent to jail in such a trial - so it's not as simple as turning up and proving the Holocaust did not exist - it exists De-Jure - the only cases to be heard are 'do you deny it or not' - there is no opportunity to prove it didn't happen. Let me ask you a question - this is a Newspaper article in the New York Times .... " While war rages in Europe something else far more terrible is happening there is a Holocaust happening against Jews, 5 Million are being killed " OK ----.... name the earliest date that article appeared (hint is was during WWI)

  • Comment number 83.

    What happens with affinity fraud of ordinary people who are *wealthy* and who come under the spell of a Ponzi scheme satan is that they are *persuaded to spend* the *interest* there by making the wealth ostensible with whom they have bonded. Hence close friends and family members get hooked from the early *investors*. Now when all goes belly up and the autorities put a stop to the rot, not only have the early *investors* lost their original funds they have to pay tax on their spent *interest*

    Duffed up good and proper Id say.

    Its a very insidious indirect manipulation and exploitation which is designed to make obtaining evidence to prosecute very difficult. Also hung onto the fact that the *investors* will see themselves as having acted illegally and therefore not likely to inform the Fuzz.

  • Comment number 84.


    "keyboard version of Living for the Weekend by Hard Fi."

    That chap took it down, I aksed him why - said he "could'nt stand it" Ha sad it was better than the original - he held it all the way through and kept it minimal. Some people dont see their own value and talents.

  • Comment number 85.

    GlenisDevereux (#82) Oh dear....I hope you know what you've let yourself in for. Welcome to the 'BNP' ;-)

  • Comment number 86.

    mimpromptu (#72) In the interest of your perace of mine I think I should point out that if it's of any help, to the best of my knowledge, we don't know each other at all, and have never met.

    On the wider issue, one of the logical problems of the conditional (IF-THEN, one of the 7 logical connectives) is that if the antecedent is false the conclusion is always true. For example:

    IF pigs have wings THEN I'm a monkey's uncle.

    This is logical matter. The content does not matter.

    In other contexts (i.e intensional contexts) it is often very tricky to see how errors occur - our psychological verbs are almost canonical when it comes to this. It's why they are best avoided, even by psychologists. It's why behavioural psychologists avoid psychology.... They study psychology as error, which is hard for some people to grasp.

  • Comment number 87.

    erratum (#86) "In the interest of your peace of mind"



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