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Friday, 14 November, 2008

Ian Lacey | 16:55 UK time, Friday, 14 November 2008

Gavin presents tonight's Newsnight - here's his outline of what's in store.

Thought for the Day: "Debt has been this government's biggest growth industry" - Sir John Major.

On tonight's programme:

International rescue
G20 meetingThere are big hopes for the G20 summit but imagine a party where the host hasn't turned up. Leaders of the world's superpowers are gathering in the States to attempt to sort out the world's economic problems but the man of the moment, Barack Obama, won't be there. So what can the G20 achieve this weekend without the next leader of the world's economic superpower? Will Gordon Brown be able to convince the rest of the world to follow his model of fiscal stimulus? Paul Mason is in Washington and I'll be speaking to leading politicians from the summit.

Baby P
The torture of the toddler known as Baby P has provoked uncomfortable questions about the safety of the most vulnerable children in our society. Today it became apparent that a Haringey social worker flagged up concerns to ministers about the risk of a repetition of the Victoria Climbie case six months before Baby P died. What happened next clearly wasn't enough to save Baby P - so how did the authorities respond to the warning?

Join us at 10.30pm on BBC 2

Gavin

Comments

  • Comment number 1.

    WHO GOES THERE?

    "Thought for the Day: "Debt has been this government's biggest growth industry" - Sir John Major."

    Is anyone surprised given it's backers? They have form you know.

  • Comment number 2.

    BY THEIR ELDER STATESMEN SHALL YE KNOW THEM

    I recently saw Geoffrey Robinson sitting in complacent splendour alongside Our Ken, and thought: what did we do?
    Now Sir John pops up, again, to give us the benefit of 'his judgement' -on all subjects except morality.
    Out there, Margaret - the only plural grandmother outside royalty, and Tony - 'some of my best friends are Popes or scoundrels' advertise Britain's propensity for cock-eyed leadership. No wonder we are adrift.

  • Comment number 3.

    I have just written to our health minister regarding an ivestigation concerning vulnerable patient abuse within a NHS Trust....this trust have taken 8 yrs to achieve resolution for no one involved so far....they have 'on going' investigations still, but I think most health service workers will recognise this as being a good way of blocking any comment on the case. They pretended to have an independant investigation, as in Baby P's case but it soon became evident that, behind the scenes, senior management at the trust controlled the entire process and even had a member of senior management sitting in all interviews with staff witnesses. This was despite that questions were being asked that involved how the staff felt regarding their suppport. Vulnerable clients were abused on every level, non were included in the investigation, nor were any members of their family or carers, while vital evidence was apparently lost (another common factor) could everyone out there that is concerned aboutt he abuse of some of our most vulnerable please go to the national discussion on safeguarding and give your evidence now!

  • Comment number 4.

    International Rescue

    Does anyone know who you put a quote in to?

    Got the plan just need the dosh

    Celtic Lion

  • Comment number 5.

    i'd be surprised if the leaders had any meaningful insights? Its the briefcase wallahs who do the donkey work? So it doesn't really matter who is there?

    given reports that 40-60% of the usa summer tax cut ended up being saved why is gordon tilting at the windmill of tax as a 'stimulus' when the evidence is it will mostly be saved and not spent?

    the way out is through job creation in industries with growth potential like a two way grid. Why is gordon blocking something that has proven to create hundreds of thousands of jobs and generate billions in income?

    instead we get more debt, tax cuts and probably old industries with no growth potential like Gm, whose gold plated employees build suvs, will get bailed out [with more debt].

    all these policies are driven by the same false beliefs among politicians that got us here in the first place.

  • Comment number 6.

    #1 JadedJean
    When you say "form" I suppose you mean Jewish bankers? International conspiracies? Fortunately race "realists" - or racists to the rest of the world - are small in number. Only those who are short on the IQ side, not high, are likely to be sucked in by such vile propositions.

    On the G20:

    I think the Wall St Journal summed up Gordon Browns G20 posturing very well (Nick Robinson blog): "The need is for sensible, reassuring policy, and a global government spending spree financed with higher taxes or more borrowing won't stimulate much of anything save perhaps Mr Brown's approval ratings."

    On Obama I am starting to wonder whether the Europeans think he is going to be a non-assertive player. With Sarkozy pronouncing on Russia when its US missiles allegedly deployed with Iran and N.Korea in mind you might imagine that Obama won't have a view or a policy.

    I doubt that he will see things that way.

    Still politics abhors a vacuum.



  • Comment number 7.

    G20 whatever you decide will be wrong and will not work.

    The G8 discussed my agenda in 2005, climate change and Africa and made a mess of that.

    http://www.mp2.worldfriend.com/sustainable_development_forum.htm

    International Resue: you dishonour Thunderbirds.

    Celtic Lion

  • Comment number 8.

    # 6 thegangofone

    Stock market parasites are stock market parasites whatever their colour, race or religion. It would appear that they want to turn the clock back with low interest rates, tax cuts etc so that they can start another credit bubble.

  • Comment number 9.

    the markets provide an important function in society. That of providing capital to firms to create wealth. Traders who speculate provide liquidity to the market. This is all legitimate. Trading is one of the hardest jobs there is and 80 % of people who try it lose money.

    the problems come when there are no rules. If there were no rules on the road pile ups would be daily events. So where are there no rules?

    In tax free rule free havens like the channel isles, isle of man, caymans , etc. There people can work outside the regulatory framework found within nation states and create bubbles and instability.

    The problems are not in the stock market which serves a useful function in society but the lack of rules in some instruments like cds and the ability to evade rules such as from tax havens. In tax havens books don't even have to be audited. They are allowed to borrow money with no security to speculate. its where the madness is and no one in uk is talking about it. why is that? because the govt don't know?

    well obama wants to close them down and he is right to do so to ensure financial stability. Yet Gordon 'financial genius' Brown is again ignoring what is going on. why?

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/nov/09/barack-obama-tax-havens-crackdown

  • Comment number 10.

    CULTURE OF ABUSE (#3)

    Sadly, Westminster is an abusive place, and lies (advisedly) at the heart of our abusive society. All the intangibles: Virtue, Integrity, Honour, Altruism, Trust, Truth and Humility are abused in 'that place'.

    Our politicians abuse the tacit requirement, placed upon them at election, to support their constituency and the voter as a whole, PARTICULARLY THE VULNERABLE against, not only outrageous fortune, but outrageous governance. However, as the TV advert says: "IT DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT" - where 'it' stands for British democracy.

  • Comment number 11.

    I'LL PUT MONEY ON IT

    By now, some tentacle of Big Money will have slid itself round a sensitive part of Don Barack Quixote and jerked him away from easy-target windmills, into reality.
    His funding was not ALL 'Jean the Upholsterer' giving 2 Dollars. He surely has 'friends that he owes'.
    Those who rise by the deferred-payment sword shall fall to the same sword when repossessed by the bailiffs.

  • Comment number 12.

    Hi everyone

    I am exploring the capabilities of IE 7 and the ability to incorporate graphs.

    I have found this diagram which explains my concerns. I don't know if it will open. So hope it will be passed by mods. If it does it will present a clearer picture of the situation

    http://sunhomedesign.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/we-are-here.jpg

    I find it hard here as I have no interest in politics or economics. I am an engineer and ecologist.

    If the diagram opens this is my concern. If the G20 increase consumerism to stabilize the economic system, it is my opinion they will collapse ecological systems and we get over 6.5 billion deaths.

    This is not being covered in the main stream debates of the present situation.

    Celtic Lion

  • Comment number 13.

    DROP THE OTHER SHOE (#12)

    That looks about right - give or take.
    Have you got a graph of the answer?

    Like that cartoon about a scientific proof, with magic in the middle,: I think step two might need a bit more work!

  • Comment number 14.

    Newsnight ask "so how did the authorities respond to the warning?".

    Well, Haringey still have an injunction on Ms Kemal to prevent her disclosing what may be pertinent information!

    Why should this be, after all, as our government would say in their totalitarian approach to private citizens 'Nothing to hide, nothing to fear'?


    Meanwhile, Ministers apparently put their hands over their ears and loudly repeat in well practiced broken record mode 'Procedures have been followed, I can't hear you, la la la la'.



  • Comment number 15.

    #13 Barrie

    First thanks Mods for that successful experiment, it has (it's 'omissive'?) helped the debate. Thanks Barrie for checking the link.

    Yes I have got the graph of the answer. Well it's (is that an apostrophe possessive to the answer, or without as in, it is) about 20 graphs and 20,000 words of proof.

    I have already done the work, it took 10 years. We get in an area of post normal post quantum work/science. You could consider it black box analysis. By looking at the inputs in and the outputs, you deduce the process within the box.

    I have got the contents of the box, I know it works and have the proof. Though it needs verification. This is part of the project option.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/paulmason/2008/10/this_is_an_economic_krakatoa.html#comment1

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/paulmason/2008/10/this_is_an_economic_krakatoa.html#comment7

    See I knew 100% that what Bush, Brown and Darling did that week would not work. In a Newsnight blog. It did not confirm to the optimum development trajectory.

    It is a 'kinda magic' but a controllable magic. Step two has been done. It is step three the implementation that is now required. £2 billion.

    The graphs and proof may be in the pack.

    http://thecelticlion.blogspot.com/2008/11/celtic-lion-our-option.html

    Celtic Lion

  • Comment number 16.

    EMOTING IS NOT THINKING

    thegangofone (#6) You might be surprised to learn what the leading professionals in intelligence research have to say on this matter.

    As to 'form', yes this goes back centuries and is well documented. Some of the people who comment on this get a little emotional, but that does not mean that there isn't a very large element of truth to it all. Any rational person who looks at the tiny Jewish population base rate in the USA population but gross over-representation in positions of power knows this and this sort of subterfuge just makes it look worse.

    You have to accept that financial power in Wall Street is largely Jewish, just as Obama's team is now essentially Jewish led - both the NYC demographics and the senior members of Obama's team establish this as irrefutable so why the post?

    Truth is not a function of how MANY people believe something. If that were so, we would still all believe that the world was created about 5000 years ago, that it's flat, is the centre of the universe, and much else besides which isn't supported by sound empirical evidence such as there not being important biological and behavioural differences between the races and sexes as a consequene of gene barrers/assortive mating.

    This is what's wrong with democracy.

    For some reason, this doesn't seem to trouble you at all.

  • Comment number 17.

    G20 Pow wow

    What would I like to hear from them -

    1) China is going to fully float it's currency , which to my mind has skewed world trade disproportionately in their favour.

    2) Certainly some kind of bank rules that limits fractional lending.

    3) Mr Brown told you can only spend what you have , banks should not irresponsibly borrow and lend ,nor should Governments irresponsibly borrow and spend, even when there is an election due.

    I doubt anything above will be agreed .

    Protectionism

    Why doesn't Mr Brown say the EU and NAFTA should sign a free trade deal ?
    Let's open up markets , no one likes protectionism do they ?

  • Comment number 18.

    G20 POW WOW (#17) Apologies for opportunism Steve.

    Poignancy is still with us. Yesterday I posted regarding 'mans exterminating tendency to man' citing Tasmania.
    Steve's heading "G20 Pow Wow" brought a wry smile to my face regarding the ABSENCE of American Indigenes at ANY summit. Rumour has it that the rightful owners of America, applied that X-factor, WISDOM, in their management of life and land (did they get in a mess over money?) so it might be an idea to have them attend EVERY Pow Wow.

    When Britain sailed her ego round the world, we were in no doubt that the people we encountered, were varying degrees of rubbish. And we took that view without, so far as I am aware, a definitive cultural/religious declaration to the effect that we were 'best', 'superior' or 'chosen by god'. When JJ points to the 'assertiveness' of Jews, as a body, knowing their underlying ethos, a fair point is made, as their stance is surely to be expected? We were pretty crass in our domination techniques (and, ultimately, had to run away!). Perhaps the (smarter?) Jews are more subtle?

    Speaking of British techniques in world affairs: we should raise our glasses to J Gordon Brown (Moral Compass and Manse)for yielding the wreckage of Tibet to its wreckers. I doubt it will get a mention at the Pow Wow. . .

    This is no time for a novice.


  • Comment number 19.

    Ours is an interesting country, as least as far as the politico-media establishment goes.

    Two vastly-paid blokes abuse just about everything and everyone possible, and after a while get suspended on full pay, while the liberal luvvies of London anguish over the fairness of it all still.

    Meanwhile a woman 'blows a whistle' about a mammoth systems failure in childcare, and is sacked within days and then has a gagging order slapped on just for good measure, to protect... er...?

    I guess it matters who you work for, and in what cause.

    Lessons are being learned, apparently. I just hope it's by the public, and they will be able to give their verdicts in an appropriate manner at the right time. Though, for some, even tomorrow would be too late.

    Keep on bouncing if it makes you happy.

  • Comment number 20.

    THE FORBIDDEN ZONE (#15)

    Yo King Celtic! you have got to stop posting sentences like: "We get in an area of post normal post quantum work/science."
    for the sake of my fevered brain. It sounds EXACTLY like a line from "1984".

    You came over as the inventor who won't reveal his invention, even to the patent agent, who will facilitate its protection; allowing promotion. You can't patent a black box of secret magic!

    But to show support: I pledge two billion quid of Schroedinger Quid, that might or might not be in a notional black box in my possession.



  • Comment number 21.

    Just how desperate is George Osborne? Shouting that the pound is due to collapse, at a time when it is falling rapidly, is much the same as rushing around a crowded cinema yelling fire. He may be right in his analysis, though the evidence of is that UK economy is still relatively strong even if its financial industry is in meltdown, but his actions are even so totally irresponsible. We all know the pound is collapsing, so there is no need for his yelling this at the top of his voice, and it merely demonstrates that he has no solution to this. Indeed, he is very obviously subjugating the national interest, which currently is for stability, to the needs of the Tories, who have no viable policies to address the recession and have even lost credibility with their own supporters, and in particular to his own needs, to rescue a career which is rapidly going down the pan. I suspect he may have just pulled the lever to totally flush himself away. I certainly hope so, for any putative chancellor who rushes around crying ‘we’re doomed’ does not deserve our support. Cameron must hope the recession ends soon, which it won’t, so that Brown can once more be put on the back foot. In the meantime he must get rid of his ineffective, and panicky, shadow chancellor.

  • Comment number 22.

    Native American Representation?

    Before our white brothers arrived to make us civilized men,
    we didn't have any kind of prison. Because of this, we had no delinquents.
    Without a prison, there can be no delinquents.
    We had no locks nor keys and therefore among us there were no thieves.
    When someone was so poor that he couldn't afford a horse, a tent or a blanket,
    he would, in that case, receive it all as a gift.
    We were too uncivilized to give great importance to private property.
    We didn't know any kind of money and consequently, the value of a human being
    was not determined by his wealth.
    We had no written laws laid down, no lawyers, no politicians,
    therefore we were not able to cheat and swindle one another.
    We were really in bad shape before the white men arrived and I don't know
    how to explain how we were able to manage without these fundamental things
    that (so they tell us) are so necessary for a civilized society.

    John (Fire) Lame Deer
    Sioux Lakota - 1903-1976

    Celtic Lion

  • Comment number 23.

    the new economic framework clearly means a new political one as well.

    ....A senior Chinese official has welcomed the UK's decision to recognise Beijing's direct rule over Tibet.....

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7730774.stm


    the price of gordon's debt?

    is this just the beginning of the humiliations?

    why is gordon saying he is doing everything possible when the govt block a feed in tariff that would create hundreds of thousands of jobs, redistribute wealth to those who would spend it and generate billions in income. How can anyone regard the govt as serious?

  • Comment number 24.

    #20 Barrie

    "Talk is cheap but whisky costs money".

    Until we get to where we can get to, the rules of the road have been made by others.

    Gordon Brown has just made a charitable donation from you of £10,000 to those poor banks and financiers.

    The difference between us is though both of us are critical of the present way our lives and this planet is being managed.

    I am willing to stand up and offer an alternative. You need to look at the figures re readership of these blogs.

    Figures in The Editors blog were something like Peston's blog had a readership of 187,000 but only 200 comments.

    When I write I also write for those who read but don't post comments here. Some of those will be systems dynamicists, thermodynamicists etc. Hence I will use a correct term such as black box analysis.

    http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O8-blackboxsystem.html

    You might see it as a source of fun, but for others it will save lives. OK it isn't magic, it is advanced thermodynamic analysis of complex systems.

    Perhaps I might take it to a patent agent, but that costs money too.

    In the mean time I will continue to work to make a difference, try and save some lives and contribute to making a better future.

    Yes I might have something you want, but so does the telephone, electricity and water companies. As yet the supermarket doesn't let me walk out with a full trolley without paying.

    If Celtic Lion does achieve something, then at least you can say you cadged a ride holding on to it's tail.


    Celtic Lion

  • Comment number 25.

    KingCelticLion (#24) The essential message of Dynamical Systems Theory (Chaos, or Non-Linearity) is quite simple: beyond a few variables one is has to deal with minimal rationality, i.e probability.

    Barrie has given you some sound advice, couched more gently than mine but well meant in both cases.

    You need to grasp that we're governed less than at any oher time in recent history - try to grasp that all this frenetic legislation over recent decades has been essentially deregulative, i.e. promoted 'freedom (anarchism) aka anti-statism. It doesn't reinforce government.

    What trusting market forces (privatisation, call it what you will), means - is small government.

    Who are you appealing to?

  • Comment number 26.

    FAIRNESS WASHES BRAINS WHITER!

    Prudence is long gone; 'change' got so small it no longer jingles in our pockets, and we have now entered the Age of Fairness.
    I have already bemoaned Brown's gauche insertion of the word 'fair' and its derivatives (is it OK to use that term?) at every turn, and today, his Sycophant in Chief - Douglas Alexander - trumpeted his focus on taking Britons FAIRLY through the downturn (to the bottom?) One can only assume that Labour has a think-tank of faded washing-powder advertisers, coming up with the sort of sad sloganeering that motivates Post-Dumb Britain.
    No wonder Tony ran away so fast. Education X 3 (in truth Schooling X Zero - and we all know about multiplying by nought, don't we!) emasculated further by all its impingements, has yield Machiavellian Westminster a' affrabit soop of manipulable dumbos. Hurrah!

    PS Garrulous George, of jolly boating fame, has offered up another one! He explained to Andrew Marr, that his job as an elected politician is to tell the truth - adding helpfully: "PARTICULARLY IN OPPOSITION".
    Point taken George!

  • Comment number 27.

    ALL JOIN IN THE CHORUS

    Alistair Darling, stumbling his way through an interview with Jon Sopel, has just added: ' . . . in terms of making a FAIRER country . . .' to the chorus of the fair.

    One wonders when fairness will find its way into the skewed votes:seats disgrace in Westminster-democracy; not forgetting all the biased procedures and structures in that "Hello?"d hall.

    'FAIRNESS BEGINS AT HOME'? It seems a Manse is not a home, for au' that. Otherwise this adage would be engraved round the bezel of Gordon's Moral Compass.

    What an indictment of the pathetic, emasculated, witless state of this country that Westminster persists, unchallenged, in treating us like fecal matter.


    We need demi-hero Davis to wake up and smell the ordure. Desert Island Discs, butters no parsnips.

  • Comment number 28.

    Convention thinking?

    For the last few days I have been reading and watching many media dutifully trot out, much as they did the 'bad form on a boat', the odd notion that there is a 'convention' that certain things are 'not done'.

    Such as mentioning, by way of some balance to the 'nothing to see here, and if there was it's all O....k' mantras (issued by the government and parroted from press release by 'journalists' and 'editors' who are clearly too busy with budget cuts to worry about 'reporting' facts - host and guests on the Andrew Marr show still in blissful, if ironic agreement as to Mrs. Palin's grasp of things as evidenced by her 'thinking Africa was a country'. I suspect some guests who could have been invited/selected on at whim and less keen toe the party line might have pointed out to a NEWS EDITOR how this notion came about and was so enthusiastically embraced by those who think it's OK even if it didn't happen... 'as it's something she might have said') all sides of the argument, possibly including non-partisan notions from those involved who might understand economics and care about country before career.

    I knew the politico-media establishment was an old-boys (and young Blair/Brown babes) inter-marrying club, and I now know it is about as corrupt as it's possible to get, but it astounds me that the level of in-breeding has led to such arrogance as to presume that their stupid attempts at fobbing the public with such blatant and irrelevant distractions to the evidence of our own eyes is going to work. It's either a fact or not. It's either what is or isn't. It is either right or wrong. It's either parliamentary process or it isn't. Not some school playground 'thing' that gets conjured up when one party says so... especially as it is most likely dropped like a hot potato when they are on the wrong end of the logic subsequently.

    Maybe it's just like the last days of the Reich and those in denial are simply partying like it's 1945 in the Bunkers. Or they know something we don't about how getting the 'right' vote result can and will be engineered.

    Maybe the plan is to add a few more million 'lesson-learning' Civil servants, quango-crats and researchers/commissioning editors to the payroll to ensure that if obvious questions do get asked, and essential statements do get made, no one who needs to know outside the bubble actually gets to hear them raised. Or if they do, the author's credibility is first 'shaped' to put anything they do say in a special kind of 'context'.

    It's one thing to be sold down the river. But it's insult to injury to be funding through tax or fee the acceleration to the rapids (instead of investing in lifebelts) by adding more opinion-heavy, over-influential dead-weights as ballast, to make the productive population's efforts at paddling against the tide even more difficult.

  • Comment number 29.

    THE HAND THAT RIGS THE BALLOT BOX . . .

    (#28) if only we could harness the energy behind that post Junkk! How green is that?

    You say: "Or they know something we don't about how getting the 'right' vote result can and will be engineered."

    Dead right. When it comes to fixing the next election, 'the gang's all here' - even Tony, through his proxy: Niccolo Mandelson. At the last election, that paragon of fair play, Alastair Campbell, presided over a room stuffed with fixers, pulling every stunt not in any book, as they micro-managed the simple-minded voters.
    In my experience, no aspect of governance rises higher than amoral. It is HIGHLY LIKELY these wicked charlatans, under the leadership of whiter than - purer than saintlier than (is it an Archangel - is it a God?) Manse Man, J Gordon Brown, have a cunning plan . . .
    Let's not forget that Brown has had connections with America for years, and THEY know a thing or two about election chicanery that would make Gordon's alter-ego heart glow. Oh to be in England!

  • Comment number 30.

    A DOWNTURN'S NOT A RECESSION: MORE DOMESTIC 'TERRORISM'?

    Further to #18 and #20 in Paul Mason's blog, surely I'm evidently missing what's worrying everyone as this last year's looking more and more like a long overdue correction to a period of pseudo-growth which now provides an opportunity to arrest, if not reverse, years of decadence not seen since 1920s Germany, but it won't be taken will it?

    Looked at from the perspective of the longer term HBOS report published in Dec 2007:

    "The UK economy is forecast to grow by 2.0%-2.25% in 2008. GDP is estimated to have increased by 3.0% in 2007, the second consecutive calendar year of economic growth above the long term average rate of 2.5%. In 2008 global economic growth is likely to slow, reflecting a weaker US economy constrained by the sub-prime crisis. Domestically, both consumer and investment spending growth are likely to moderate in response to earlier interest rate rises and some tightening in credit availability.

    The UK economy is expected to deliver its 65th successive quarter of GDP growth during 2008. This represents more than 16 years of continued economic growth and extends the UK's longest running period of unbroken GDP growth on record. No other developed nation can match this performance."

    HBOS economic forecast for 2008

    We've had 65 successive quarters of GDP growth and the yearly average has been 2.5%, so why is the current fall to -0.5% such a problem given the shake-up which financial services has had and that so much of our recent growth has been down to financial services?

    By definition, "growth refers to a comparison of output in the latest quarter compared with the previous quarter. This is referred to as quarterly growth. Annual growth refers to a comparison of output in the latest calendar year in comparison with the previous year."

    The banks haven't been lending and little can induce them to do so, in this non-centrally planned, free-market economy, but wasn't it inevitable (and perhaps for the greater good) that there'd be a contraction, and wasn't it inevitable (and for the greater good) that those services which fuelled/fed off this pseudo-growth would be the first to be shed?

  • Comment number 31.

    MORE MISLEADING REPORTING

    There is a negative correlation between age and offending behaviour. The crime rate rises with age peaking in the late teens and then declines. So technically, most offending behaviour is by male 'children' when analysed as rate of offending, it's a reflection of growth and socialisation.

    So Narey, like others who keep lamenting the demonisation of 'children' (define the age range) STILL doesn't know what he's talking about. Some might have expected better of an ex DG of HMP Prison Service, but some people have naive expectations.

    We have a problem. It's called dysgenesis.

  • Comment number 32.

    “The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance.”
    Cicero - 55 BC

    Those who refuse to learn from history are sure to repeat it.

  • Comment number 33.

    D'ACCORD (#32)

    I believe Gibbon wrote that the following five attributes characterised Rome at its end.
    First, a mounting love of the show and luxury; second, a widening gap between the very rich and the very poor; third, an obsession with sex; fourth, freakishness in the arts masquerading as originality, and enthusiasm pretending to be creativity; fifth, an increased desire to live off the state.

    Not sure anyone will be ABLE to repeat our mess - not enough raw materials left!

  • Comment number 34.

    barrie (#33) "Not sure anyone will be ABLE to repeat our mess - not enough raw materials left!"

    That's the bit which so many of the 'sceptics' just don't/won't/can't seem to grasp. It's entropic.

    Or is it that they're hoping that others won't grasp it?

    I suspect it's the former, i.e. scotoma.

  • Comment number 35.

    SAN FAIRY ANN

    J Gordon Potter used his magic word FAIR again today. Evil was constrained, and the world stayed steady on its axis.
    "We will take people FAIRLY through this downturn" he declared, but what does that MEAN?
    Would we not prefer: "safely"? That would be: nobody homeless, dead, or hypothermic.
    Or "competently" would be nice. That would mean not transferring out of the toilet-pan into the U-bend. Surely FAIRNESS invokes altruism, honour, trust and the like. Is he really prepared to give up his legendary freedom from such attributes, after all this time? Why would he do that? It's a high price to pay for the Prime Ministership of a failed state.

 

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