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Haye v Chisora: Boxing madder than ever

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Ben Dirs | 07:15 UK time, Wednesday, 9 May 2012

Those who condemn the bout between David Haye and Dereck Chisora presumably condemn the bout between Muhammad Ali and George Foreman. Or perhaps not. More likely they eulogise over "The Rumble In The Jungle", a multi-million dollar fight orchestrated by a man who once kicked another man to death and which took place in Zaire, a poverty-stricken African country run by a maniacal despot who publicly executed dissenters in a stadium that doubled as a dungeon.

David Haye and Dereck Chisora at the announcement of their fight. Photo: Getty

Bigger crimes have been committed in boxing by far bigger names than Haye and Chisora, which is why some connected to the sport will find all the hand-wringing over July's fight hysterical in its hypocrisy. For those still not convinced, look up the Brawl in Porthcawl on the web and marvel at the great Brian London ironing out Dick Richardson's trainer, a man about twice his age and half his size. The year? 1960. The punishment? A £1,000 fine - a substantial amount then - but, crucially, no ban.

Boxing is mad, bad and dangerous to know and always has been, since men fought with bare knuckles on heaths. So mad, that if I told you the Luxembourg Boxing Federation, under which auspices Haye-Chisora will take place, has included a clause in the fight contract allowing the use of tripods, some people might even believe me.

People will say nothing should be measured by the crimes of its past but if this is the way the sport has always been then how can people claim to be disappointed by it? It wasn't that long ago that Mike Tyson was rolling about on the floor taking chunks out of Lennox Lewis's leg and threatening to eat his children. Guess what? The bout itself went down a bomb, becoming the highest-grossing event in pay-per-view history.

Then again, there are two sides to every story, and this story is positively polygonal. So forgive me for echoing what I wrote in the immediate aftermath of Haye and Chisora's Munich melee, namely that the real problem is not that this tawdry affair happened at all but that, as far as many are concerned, it took place in a vacuum.

When boxing was a more mainstream concern, boxing people were able to point to better things when things went wrong. However, the Munich melee was the only 'boxing' many would have seen for months, if not years. And when this week's other big boxing news is the fight between Amir Khan and Lamont Peterson potentially falling through because Peterson has failed a drugs test, you've got a bit of a problem.

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Questions also have to be asked of Frank Warren, the manager of Chisora, who is prepared to let his fighter box despite his behaviour in Munich - which don't forget included the weigh-in slap of Vitali Klitschko and the pre-match spit at Wladimir.

"A message has to be sent out that some conduct is not acceptable," conceded Warren after the British Boxing Board of Control's decision to withdraw Chisora's licence. So why is Chisora in the ring again so soon? "Why should he [Chisora] not make a living?" said Warren on Tuesday. Because he slapped and spat at two large Ukrainians before threatening to shoot and "physically burn" David Haye. Whatever that means.

Warren is at pains to point out that he has done nothing legally wrong, which is true. But what about morally? And the fact he was able to skirt around the regulations so easily highlights just what a farcical muddle boxing is in: banned by Britain's boxing board, so Warren asks the boxing board of Luxembourg (which has no professional fighters) to license his man to fight in Britain and a German company, Sauerland, to promote it. Mad? If boxing was an animal, it would be tethered to a tree and shot.

But in a sport saturated with governing bodies, the only governing body that matters is money. And while it will irritate some that Haye and Chisora are able to benefit financially from their Munich melee, the irony is that the British public will ultimately decide whether they deserve it or not. Expect Upton Park to be packed. And given Haye's speed against Chisora's durability, they will probably see a pretty good fight.

Comments

Page 1 of 3

  • Comment number 1.

    This fight should not be allowed. What example is this setting for the youth entering boxing today? It is an honourable sport and is tarnished by the behaviour of Chisora and if anything portrays his appalling lack of respect as an acceptable part of society. One thing is for sure though it is all about the money - always has been and always will be. As for boxing being treated with respect - that has long disappeared - banter is good but the antics of the fighters are far beyond this. Shame on you.

  • Comment number 2.

    Chisora is a disgrace

  • Comment number 3.

    Patently the boxers are not disgrace.... @ 2. It is the people who will buy the pay per view for this fight. David Haye is not much better, as he tries and fails to be the ring master in his own mediocrity.

    The real problem is the boards of control. IBF, WBC, WBF, WWF, ABC, NBC, IBS etc etc. I snicker. The way boxing was split down and diluted till it was unrecognisable is its own shame. Too many belts & not enough standards. What boxing really needs is for there to be one champion, of premier league boxers in each weight class. THe only way you become that champion is by beating the guys in the lower divisions. Have it set up so people can easily see where their fighter sits in a ranking system that is less about who you know (or how good your promoter is) and more about how good you are.

  • Comment number 4.

    Chisora is a disgrace and should never really have been allowed to box anyway!

    I've never understood how people with a violent past and in this case domestic violence can be allowed to hold a boxing licence.

    I'm not excusing Haye's behaviour in Munich but he was there to do what he does best when trying to set a fight up namely wind up the Klitschkos, for Chisora to leave his seat and go into a crowd to confront him showed not only great immaturity but also that he has no real control over his temper.

    I sincerely hope that Chisora gets one hell of a beating and unltimately doesn't ever fight again.

  • Comment number 5.

    Haye will beat the **** out of Chisora and show that classless guy the door for retirement. Eitherway as much as this fight generates some excitement due to past antics, I would say this fight shouldnt be allowed this soon as it gives a bad image for boxing and how it runs...!

  • Comment number 6.

    A good blog Ben, highlighting the hypocrisy we all show. Given the way Boxing Manages itself it would not surprise me to learn that the press-conference punch up was actually staged.

    The truth is that this is a fight that will sell tickets. Ironically it will get more coverage world wide than either of the Klitchko's recent world title fights. Controversy sells the fight. Boxing needs good fights to prevent it spiralling out of our consciousness.

    I don't agree that fight should take place in the UK, it should take place in Luxembourg if they are sanctioning the fight, but as you say money talks.

  • Comment number 7.

    They are both a disgrace to British boxing !

  • Comment number 8.

    @3 wholeheartedly agree with your point about all the different bodies and indeed within the bodies they have different classes of champion, I mean what the hell is a diamond champion?!

    Time was that when someone won a world championship it meant that they were the best not one of about 10 world champions at the same weight and of course then they avoid fighting each other all the while claiming to be the greatest boxer ever in the history of the sport.

    I've been thinking about setting up my own governing body, I mean it can't be hard there are so many of them. The LBF anyone?!

  • Comment number 9.

    Here we have a de facto unlicensed fight between someone whose mental health needs examining and someone avoiding punishment by being unlicensed. If something goes wrong will some unknown bureaucrat care?

    If this fight was in then Zaire then that would be Zaire's problem but it is not. The fighters are both likely subject to punishment if licensed and one of them clearly has issues. That parallel was neither relevant nor making the point intended.

    Also such a fight is being staged by the preferred bidder for part of the Olympic legacy! Can we expect Bear Baiting and Mud Wrestling licensed by Andorran authorities before Hammers' matches?

    I find it hard to believe the Home Office, Police or Newham will allow this farce. Then again our Home Sec likes to hide behind blaming Euro law for inaction.

  • Comment number 10.

    Cheers Ben, always an excellent read.

    It looks like Frank Warren has whored himself out again.

    I hope Chisora's career is ended with this bout.

  • Comment number 11.

    @7 They are both a disgrace to British boxing !

    Luxembourg boxing surely.

  • Comment number 12.

    I wonder how the BBC dare to even comment on the sport of boxing when they afford it absolutely no coverage whatsoever despite being funded by the tax payer, maybe of whom love this great sport. Secondly, they are always so quick to jump on any negative story such as the whole Haye Vs Chisora debacle and yet a man like Carl Froch who has fought exclusively on the road against one world class opponent after another after another is lucky to get so much as a mention. The amount of lives that boxing saves from prison and early deaths, combating gang culture and tirelessly fighting to keep kids off the streets is countless but again, don't expect to read about this stuff on the Beeb. Boxing simply does not fit in with the ultra-PC attitude at the BBC these days. And to think Barry McGuigan was drawing approximately 20 MILLION viewers on BBC on a Saturday night back in the day. I still take immense satisfaction at the BBC Sports Personality of the Year ceremony just a few short years ago when Joe Calzaghe humiliated the BBC by winning the award and Ricky Hatton finished third with Joe's father Enzo voted Trainer of the Year. We don't need you BBC, we have BoxNation, Sky, Channel 5, Eurosport, ESPN, Premier etc,etc... but don't bash our sport if you are never going to redress the balance by covering the many, many positive aspects of it as well.

  • Comment number 13.

    The biggest hypocrite of all here is Frank Warren .... he was "outraged" at the time of the press conference antics and then in double quick time is setting up this fight and defending Chisora's "right to make a living". Chisora is clearly as mad as a box of frogs and has an unmanageable temper. Whilst in "world" terms this fight is fairly meaningless, putting all other things to one side, if they both turn up fit and actually make it into the ring, it should be a good show. I would put my money on a point win for Haye.

  • Comment number 14.

    I’m making no moral judgement but for sporting and aesthetic reasons I’d rather eat irradiated dog faeces than watch this fight. Two of the lesser lights of a talent starved division facing off in a contest that has a badly stage managed bout of handbags as its USP, I’ll pass thanks. Anyone fancy a small wager that after having back-pedalled and jabbed his way to a tedious decision in the face of Dereck’s ponderous lunges Haye then has a massively spontaneous public showdown with Tyson Fury?

  • Comment number 15.

    unfortunately l have to agree with the writer on this one. boxing is about money, and his example of the rumble in the jungle is sport-on.

    the chisora and haye munich incident was a low point in boxing ''at that time'', but it was not the first, or worst nor will it be the last.

    @gman 70, you state that by allowing this fight to go on ''what example would be setting to the youth'', well l think the BBBOC should see this as an opportunity to get the two fighters out there and promote good behaviour amongst the youth by acknowledging that their incident in munich was unacceptable and should not reflect on the sport (unfortunately it does).

    shunning the fight won't help anyone, mike tyson bit off part of a guy's ear, bit lennox on the leg and yet he's getting movie deals. mohammed ali and foreman fought in a country that had no concept of human rights, yet it's regarded the best fight of all-time. cut these guys some slack, haye punched chisora on the chin, chisora threatened to kill him, then they both apologised to the public and have been cooperating with the cops. they certainly are not the worst individuals in the world of sport.

  • Comment number 16.

    boxing is ruled by money, once the money men took over morals and principles took a back seat. wouldn't surprise me if the whole thing has been orchestrated from day one and the "confrontation"

  • Comment number 17.

    "If boxing was a person, it would be taken outside and shot."

  • Comment number 18.

    I agree with frank maloney and anyone else who has interpreted what this all means, that if you want to get on in boxing, do something stupid, you'll get a big fight and a big purse out of it. Sends completely the wrong message.

    And its not just that but the timing of that message. At a time when boxing really is struggling for popularity. It seems to me that the casuals want and will pay for WWE style boxing, where every fight has a backstory, where you need a reason to hate one man and love another man. It's corny as hell.

    When did boxing stop being an art, a sport? It seems more like "sports entertainment" at the moment. (god how I hate that phrase).

    And forgetting all that, "entertainment" aside, as a contest I'm not inspired. Neither one of these two would be meeting if were'nt for a brawl at a press conference, and Haye's last few fights have been bore fests. I expect nothing different this time around, he is a salesman who has conned the public too many times. He's even dragged my interest into a couple of his fights through just talking a good fight alone. Come fight night though, this guy just does not deliver - constantly.

    Haye has had his last pay per view out of me. I wont be watching this one. The last few times he's fought, I've felt conned.

  • Comment number 19.

    I don't understand why the fight is sanctioned by Luxembourg and is taking place in England. If they are banned, or without British boxing licences how can they fight in England? No articles on this so far have explained this.

  • Comment number 20.

    Thanks Ben, a good read. I agree with what you said. If you are going to follow this logic, however, I wish you had gone further and pointed out boxing's long and terrible history of exploiting poor and disadvantaged fighters, its deep and enduring links to organised crime etc. In this context, the shock and horror expressed at Haye and Chisora's little pantomime, which was in truth not much more than a breach of etiquette, is laughable. I will be watching Haye vs Chisora and enjoying it for what it is.

  • Comment number 21.

    Excellent Blog Ben ! Key points are your observations that "the only governing body that matters is money" and the fact that Mr Warren will apparently do whatever is necessary regardless of the moral issue . Sadly , the public will pay to watch a couple of second-raters and maybe the only good news is that after the event there will perhaps be one or even , if we are lucky , two less has-beens or never-made-its in the public eye . Until boxing carries out a long and hard introspection and reforms itself from the top down - or from the bottom up - then for me at least it will continue to be off-limits as either sport or entertainment .

  • Comment number 22.

    "The biggest hypocrite of all here is Frank Warren "

    Yhea but come on, this surprises you? He's always been slime. Nothing that guy does surprises me. Nothing. To know that he has been a hypocrite over this fight (and I agree, he has) is no new news for me, its what I expect from him. I'd love to see him moved on. He'd do well in america if he decided to run his own wrestling franchise, I just want to see the guy move on from boxing but I've wanted that for a long long time.

  • Comment number 23.

    Right on blhorne (12).

    TWSI - Iit's not unlicensed. It's licensed by an EU country. Same deal if a Klitschko was to fight one of their bums here.

    Also Chisora had his licensed taken off him, wasn't charged with anything, talked with polizei in Germany, who did nothing, and was told he could reapply for his license. What sort of nonsense is that? He's not applying to get it back he's appealing which takes over 6 months for some reason. Hence the reason for an EU license, so he can fight, so he can make a living.

    Why would the police or home office get involved? This is probably going to get me censured, but that's a moronic statement.

    Finally, I think both these guys are thoroughly unlikeable, dubious characters, who won't be getting any of my money. And that's what you do if you don't like this, or them, don't pay for the fight.

    And Ben, no mention of the great fight at the weekend between Cotto, and Mayweather. You work for the BBC, isn't there supposed to be balance at all times, or is boxing a special case.

  • Comment number 24.

    There is no way in justifying this fight. Quoting Frank Maloney "Its happening because of a punch up at a press conference" Its a disgrace to the sport of boxing, what has happened to the world that we think because it creates debate its good for the sport. Lets have a positive debate about it, look at the hard working and honest guys like David Price etc that will be outshone by this CIRCUS.

    1. The two guys have no licence and a hate for each other, it will not be good for boxing and the image of boxing all over the world. Trash talking etc etc is only entertaining to the mindless and idiotic. Boxing is about integrity and humbleness, the complete opposite of Haye/Chisora

    2. Its on pay-per view to watch two "never have been's"

    3. You cannot compare this to the Muhammed Ali/Forman fight as it was the country that was corrupt and wrong not the boxers, at least that fight shone a light on the disgraces that were happening in that country (lets be honest no one would even of knew about it if that had not happened there)

    4. I don't want to see Chisora and Haye without a living but they need to have a slice of humble pie and realize that they did something wrong and should be punished

    5. Frank Warren is a disgrace... like Don King only interested in money - and for those who will say he is not getting paid for this.. Yes he is, he has a shareholding in the takings from box nation for the fight.

  • Comment number 25.

    At the very least the bout should take place in Luxembourg then.

  • Comment number 26.

    Shame on the two boxers, the promoters, Luxembourg, and all the mugs who'll pay to watch this fiasco...

  • Comment number 27.

    Oh yes and thats another thing, Frank Warren tries to make people feel sorry for chisora......he has to work! he has to eat! what do you want him to do, sign on?

    My heart bleeds for chisora's work prospects. Shouldnt he have thought about that before losing control in Germany? I dont feel sorry for him and if he has to sign on, he'll be joining a very long queue of people, some of whom might be able to teach him a few things about how life works for mere mortals.

    Do I worry for Chisora's welfare? No. And neither should anyone else, thats his concern, but he shouldnt be getting big fights off the strength of this. Warren has attempted to turn this into a story of morality where a guy needs to feed himself and it does'nt wash. Tell Chisora to get his pen warm and his queuing boots ready, and then tell him WHY he's in that position, dont bloody set him up as some welfare morality tale.

  • Comment number 28.

    Deeply disappointed they didn't at least re-enact the Holmes-Berbick dropkick off a car bonnet.

  • Comment number 29.

    @22, of coure you are correct and I am not at all surprised .. just wanted to point it out thats all.

    Comment to Ben, the Ali vs Foreman fight, whilst in Zaire and promoted by another dubious character, was actually a fully licenced and recognised title fight by the then two best fighters on the planet so there are some significant differences here.

    Is it possible to get some comments on Mayweather vs Cotto and also thoughts on Froch vs Bute? Some real boxers.

  • Comment number 30.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 31.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 32.

    #31 thats bang out of order.

    I'm half looking forward to the fight. Forget the hype, styles make fights and this could be a decent one.

  • Comment number 33.

    If this fight is not sanctioned by the British boxing authorities surely once the first punch is thrown the police should arrest the perpetrator on suspicion of committing an assault.

  • Comment number 34.

    Ben,

    You know it as well as the next rational man knows it. The sport is a load of farm manure.

    No one is in charge, its out of control. Until its brought under a respected singular governing body then it will remain in the sorry state it is in at the moment... hence your article.

    It is such a broken "sport" now that what we are witnessing is a legal way to allow two guys, in a street brawl with limited boxing skills or respect for the sport they claim to love, to be allowed to fight for no greater honour than that of the average fight at chucking out time at the local nightclub.

    A nightclub punch up, is that not what this fight is? Throw in the spin doctors, the willing media and some gullible punters and these two thugs and the suits that stand smugly beside them all walk away with your money .....

    Its not weather its morally right or wrong, we all know the answer to that already.

    The question is weather you are stupid enough to be intrigued by it, or worse, stupid enough to part with your cash to watch it.

    Let the pub pay for it, have a pint and talk about better sports.

  • Comment number 35.

    The only problem here is that people still continue to call this a sport. It is in the same way that bear-baiting and cock-fighting are.

  • Comment number 36.

    @31, that is a disgraceful comment and is deeply offensive to past great boxers who have died or actually been permanently injured. I think here of the likes of Jonny Owen, Michael Watson, Gerald McLennan and others.

  • Comment number 37.

    "If boxing was a person, it would be taken outside and shot."

    How mad does a person have to be before you think it is OK to shoot them? Is depression enough? Schizophrenia? Dementia?

    Very distasteful remark.

  • Comment number 38.

    @33
    Luxembourg, European Union, if it was illegal, they wouldn't be doing it. Get it yet? Is it sinking in. They're breaking no laws, it's a sanctioned fight, understand?

    There may be a spurious moral argument, but it's NOT ILLEGAL.

    Do we all understand now?

  • Comment number 39.

    Thanks Ben, totally agree. This is a fight that was bound to happen and in many ways I believe one the sport needs.

    As a moderate boxing fan, when sky took boxing pay-per-view I decided it was one expense I could probably do without. Fair enough Mr Murdoch you lost one viewer however more troubling for the sport is that my 3 sons never spent the hours being allowed to stay up with their dad watching the modern day equivalent of Ali, Fraser et al. Where are future boxing fans going to come from?

    Today with much less interest in the sport and competition from the various wrestling federations plus the up and coming cage fighting boxing's promoters know they need something 'box office' to grab an audience. Step up Haye and Chisora with their rather embarrassing (if not, say it quietly encouraged) anitcs. Anything to get some publicity. WWF has shown a largely indifferent audience needs the snarling, shouting name calling... niggle to get interested.

    All I'd say is that if a degree of 'theatre' is required to get a fight on please can they do it with a little more dignity?

  • Comment number 40.

    @31

    It’s highly unlikely you’ll get your wish which is a real shame as wishing for people to be critically injured is a great way of seizing the moral high ground. Heavyweights rarely suffer the kind of catastrophic brain injuries that occur in lighter weight divisions, one theory is that wasting to make weight limits depletes the fluid that cushions the brain, heavies don’t need to waste so don’t expose themselves to that risk. Of course in later life both men may find themselves with dementia which effects many ex-boxers, hopefully you can take some comfort from that.

  • Comment number 41.

    some interesting points raised - 12 - you are spot on, the BBC do treat boxing as a minority sport, possibly they got burned with the Fraudley contract fiasco!

    so Chisora did act badly with the Klitschkos, BUT (and Im not saying he was right), he was provoked. The K bros use every trick in the book to unsettle an opponent before a fight and mess with their corner.
    The punishment should have been handed down long before now, and this issue should have been settled months ago, and I do believe the man has a right to earn a living, once said punishment has been accepted.
    Haye sees this as a path back to the K bros and Chisora a chance to make some money. Neither fighter is particularly likeable, but dont forget some of the unsavoury comments Ali would make in the leadup to fights, which were worse than the stuff Haye comes out with to sell a fight.

  • Comment number 42.

    Agree totally with #12' I've had this argument with Ben before. The only coverage on main NBC sport homepage this last month (aside from may weather winning) are two negative stories.

    BBC hate Sky, Boxnation and anyone else who shows boxing. Nothing on the demarcus Corley surprise defeat or prize fighter because BBC is biased beyond belief. Same with darts.

  • Comment number 43.

    Honestly, all these histrionics... 'Its a disgrace!' they cry. 'Arrest them when they go in the ring' we hear. Quite frankly that is exactly the response Mr Warren wants because that is the only way he's going to be able to drive enough hype to fill his own and Box Nation's Pay Per View coffers.

    This fight will get zero attention outside of the UK and is completely meaningless in terms of either fighter plotting a return to the top and a shot at either Klitschko. The only market for this is the Uk and Warren knows this - hence the fence between them yesterday and the typical 'lets settle this in the ring' sentiment

    Once again, boxing is revealed for what it is at this level - all about the money and taking advantage of any situation that creates an opportunity to make some. But quite honestly, who can blame them if the paying public are willing to part with their hard earned cash to watch?

    At grass roots and amateur level, boxing is still a massive force for good in society; helping instil discipline, fitness and a sense of belonging to many disaffected people who find community and a sanctuary in the many dedicated gyms in the towns and cities of this country.

    However, the increasingly politiscised and fragmented world of today's professional boxing is a world away from this and if nothing else, is getting worse.

    Even when the mob ruled the game and in the times Don King created the circus around Ali v Foreman, Ali v Frazier, Tyson v Holyfield et al, there was still a purity to the sport that pitted the best and most relevant fighters against each other regardless of what happened outside the ring. We live today in times where certain promoters wont work with certain sanctioning bodies and where fighters are deliberately kept apart because they can earn more fighting other, less able opponents, with the prospect of a 'clash of the titans' bout down the line somewhere. Promoters eeking out the last $ they can from fighters long since past their best but still able to draw a crowd.

    However, that's just the game and always has been. If it's ever going to change then boxing needs a fundamental shake up with fighters contracted to organisations rather than to individual promoters. A premier league of boxing has been mooted and it could work but for the will of those running the sport. Unfortunately, in these days of so many 'acronyms' dishing out belts and sanctioning bodies able to licence fights wherever they like, that chances of these people coming together to agree a path forward for the professional game that breeds great fights and great conduct in and out of the ring is almost impossible to see.

    You want to see pure boxing, get down your local gym.

  • Comment number 44.

    #34

    That comment comes from someone who obviously has no interest in boxing except marquee fights.

    There was some great boxing at the weekend, it's not all about the headline fights. Froch vs Bute a load of manure is it?

    People love a reason to hate and Chisora gave them it. Ali said awful things about Joe Frazier, he said racist things, was a serial adulterer, but people love and adore him as the greatest ever.

    People need to stop whining, let them settle it in the ring, and if you don't want to watch it that's up to you.

  • Comment number 45.

    Please evryone have a word with yourselves, to say David haye is a second rater or never has been is utter twaddle, he was undiputed cruiser weight champion and then Heavy weight champion, would you say Evander Holifield was a never has been, i think not.

    As for the fight being licensed by Luxembourg but taking place at Upton Park, it has something to do with EU free trade rules, apparently according to Frank Warren the BBoC actually told Chisora to get licnesed by someone else, which all makes the BBBoC a bit of a joke!!!!

    If as may have state the people are unipressed by this fight then show your displeasure by not watching it, i am guessing the 30 people who have commented on this blog are going to be in the minority and it won't make a jot of difference as this is sure to be a sell out with the winner (David Haye) going on to fight Vitali.

    One last thing, Ben, nice bit of media sensilisation "If boxing was a person, it would be taken outside and shot." when was the last time you heard of someone being taken outside and shot or have you been hanging around in Zaire for too long?

  • Comment number 46.

    Some of the hysterical messages are making me smile. Arrest them at once!

    Also agree with 45; Haye went to Mormecks back yard to take his belts then unified an admittedly weak division, then went on to claim a portion of the HW crown. No question hes not the best HW in the world, but people should respect what he has achieved.

  • Comment number 47.

    Thank goodness comment #31 has bene taken down, to wish what you did on anyone shows you've got your own problems. And after saying what you hoped would happen to both fighters I think it's in your best interests that you DON'T believe in karma.

    Onto the fight itself and it really does sadden me that this is taking place. Fair enough if that's what these guys want to do then go for it but I've bene burned by Haye before and I certainly won't be paying for this one. How a person can be banned by their own federation only for another to turn around and say they'll happily give him a licence seems crazy in the extreme. For all of FIFA's and the ICC's faults at least if someone gets banned like this it ends up being a worldwide ban.

    As others have said the multitude of titles, organisations and in this case national federations who ignore each others rules and sanctions are what people get so frustrated about. But at the same time boxing may well be (surely is) in decline in this country is it in decline round the world? We all assume that boxing is dying a death but is that the case everywhere? We seem to forget boxing is one of the few truly global sports. A decline here would be bad for British boxing but if audience and participation levels are increasing everywhere else then the sport isn't quite dead on it's feet as some would have you believe.

  • Comment number 48.

    @44

    Fair comment.

    not a massive fan but have watched a few Froch fights and enjoyed them. used to love watching hatton and went over for his mayweather fight.

    hope Burns does well being a scot.

    struggle to keep interested though.

  • Comment number 49.

    Lets all face it, bxoing is a complete joke. No wonder MMA ( and the UFC is particular ) is so popular. Top fighters fighting each other every month under one governing body.

  • Comment number 50.

    I'm more than happy to see Chisora get his backside handed to him in the full glare of a main event.

    However, this does seem a big fall for Haye. A year ago the most credible and marketable star in British boxing. An undisputed cruiserweight champion, with great skills and great personality. Although unspectacular as a heavyweight, he was undefeated, world champion and there seemed no reason to doubt him.

    But with one defeat to Wladimir his entire aura had gone. Maybe we as boxing fans are to blame for this. The expectation was too high (partly fuelled by Haye himself of course). Wladimir is just too big. Not since Lennox has there been a fighter so large, so strong with such ringcraft. Don't get me wrong, he's no Sugar Ray, but he knows his craft and many many good heavyweights have found him just too big a mountain to climb. Dodgy toe or not, Haye found what many others have found...it ain't easy to get inside with Wladimir.....and on the outside...you are toast.

    But because of his braggadocio prior to the fight and his toe excuse after it, Haye was left looking weak and indecisive. What he should have done is say, 'Yep, I underperformed and he is smarter than I thought, and his jab is like a freaking sledgehammer. I'll know better next time'. Then go out and fight one of the USA's top ranked heavyweights, dominate him and then call for a match with Vitali.

    How he finds himself in this 'freakshow' must be baffling to him. Haye should destroy Chisora (game as he was against Vitali in the end). Haye's more skilful, more experienced, more durable and just plain better....but even if he does he will get no credit among real fight fans. Defeating a man who has lost four of his last five fights will not make him number 1 contender or even in the top ten.

    I would hope that a crushing defeat would end Chisora's career, but unfortunately such is the appetite for idiots among the tabloid set that I fear win, lose or draw he will get more chances to make a mockery of the sport.

  • Comment number 51.

    Well said #44 finally someone with some sense, i would just like to point out to almost everyone that despite these twos supposed failings they are both top class atheletes, and before you scoff i challenge any one of you to do 12 x 3 min, i will gaurentee you wouldn't make it past 3 and that would be just on the bag not with someone in front of you punching you as hard as they can in the face.

    I think all the detractors should show a little more respect, or maybe that is the problem with society these days there is no respect left and everyone is two quick to critise and judge with out first finding out all the facts or understand what they are saying.

  • Comment number 52.

    With all of the hype and trash talking which surrounds this, lets not forget that although David Haye was a fantastic Cruiser weight, he's too small to be a good heavyweight. Chisora is just a poor, boring excuse for a boxer - hispast 3 fights have been painful to watch.

    This fight will be 12 rounds of Haye on the back foot and Chisora lacking the skills to even land a punch - then it will go to points, there will be disagreements, more trash talking and que 'round 2'!

  • Comment number 53.

    Contradictory content to cover a controversial bust-up. Permissable.
    People being paid to be thugs? Not so.

  • Comment number 54.

    @52

    I agree that haye is too small to be a modern Heavyweight but surely there is something wrong with the weight categories, and in light of modern athletes they should be examined. Right up to Cruiserweight there can be only a few pounds between the weights of fighters, but at heavyweight it can be several stones.

    Is it time for a super-heavyweight division or some re-catgorisation of weight limits. I think weight classes and ranking systems are things that MMA has got right.

    You can understand Cruiserweights bulking up because Heavyweight is where the cash and glory is, but it's a struggle for any cruiserweight to be effective at over 16 stone...by fight time the Klitschkos weigh 19 stone. Fair?

    Not sure what the specific answer is, just a point for discussion.

  • Comment number 55.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 56.

    Haye used to draw in the big money, Wlad got 5 times what he normally gets when he fights one of his nobodies when he fought Haye, money talks baby, and you can bet Vitali will wany some of the action.

    Haye maybe small but he still managed to beat the gaint Valuev.

  • Comment number 57.

    Boxing can never be reformed because it is, by its very nature, subhuman. Boxers are revolting morons, people who watch boxing are revolting morons. They should go back to bare knuckle fighting on heaths. With nobody watching. However, provided there's money in it, we will continue to indulge the lowest of our society in their desire to see two thugs injure each other for fun.

  • Comment number 58.

    These two are an utter JOKE. and pretending to be kept apart by a 'steel fence' a sneeze could have blown that over.

  • Comment number 59.

    I really really REALLY do not care ! Two ignorant, school playground bullies in a sport that has lost it's romance. I guess this will also be on ESPN or SKy Box Office at a mere £13.99 on at 3.00 am........yawwwwn ! Boxing....so boring !

  • Comment number 60.

    @54

    Exactly, the weight differences completely dictate the fight - there is no plausible way that the two fighters will toe to toe, and they both no that. So thats the problem, the smaller guy (Haye), like in the Klitschko fight, will have to stay out of the way and try to land a (very) big shot. The bigger guy (Chisora) will be just like the Klischko fight (I still have no idea how he got a title shot in the first place) - proved that he can take a beating but gave nothing back.

    Lets no kid ourselves on, the heavyweight division is a total joke just now and they are screaming for this fight because there is leterally nothing else to watch. Even the Klischko's are useless, they have no aggression and have only ruled the division for so long because theiris nobody to even give them a challenge.

    After a few more fights, Tyson Fury - who took Chisora to pieces, will give them a decent contest. And he seems like a stand up bloke!

  • Comment number 61.

    Of course the money grabbing Frank Warren (10% ?, 25% ?) is free to stage whatever events he wants.

    The only way to stop it is for no-one to buy tickets or turn up.

  • Comment number 62.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 63.

    Hardly the best advert for the East End of London, in the lead up to the Olympics !!

  • Comment number 64.

    These two will end up scratching, biting and kicking each other. British to the bone.

  • Comment number 65.

    @57

    Interesting that although you categorise everyone who watches boxing as morons, you show the most ignorance of any poster.

    You are allowed your objections, I'm sure you have some foundation of experience or knowledge to base them on (perhaps). And...there is no doubt that some aspects of the sport attract corruption and some fights result in injury. However like every other aspect of life....if you choose to look for and focus on the negative you will find it. However, also like every other aspect of life...most people involved are decent.

    If you really aren't interested then I suggest you don't visit these pages, you won't then find yourself offended and feel the need to insult those of us who do have an interest.

    I don't go on crocheting forums on snowboarding forums cos I'm not interested in them, but I wouldn't think of insulting those who are.

    Thanks and best regards.

  • Comment number 66.

    @57 Albert
    Bit of a sweeping statement that. Maybe *some* heavyweight boxers can be described in that way, but there are many lighter weight boxers far from 'revolting and moronic'. Are you seriously saying Ali is revolting? Frank Bruno? Barry McGuigan? No.

    If you like boxing as a sport then don't watch heavyweight. Lighter weights demostrate more skill and technique. Heavyweight is more 'two large men thumping each other'. Hatton, Eubank, Mayweather etc are more entertaining than any Klitschko/ Haye/ Chisora fight.

  • Comment number 67.

    36. At 09:34 9th May 2012, f1fan2011 wrote:
    "@31, that is a disgraceful comment and is deeply offensive to past great boxers who have died or actually been permanently injured. I think here of the likes of Jonny Owen, Michael Watson, Gerald McLennan and others."

    you're equating chisora and haye to those other boxers, not me.

    40. At 09:37 9th May 2012, P_RichardStroker wrote:
    "It’s highly unlikely you’ll get your wish which is a real shame as wishing for people to be critically injured is a great way of seizing the moral high ground."

    it's funny how people rationalise violence. it's okay to encourage and support violence "as long as they don't get critical injured".

    47. At 09:55 9th May 2012, lee fett wrote:
    "And after saying what you hoped would happen to both fighters I think it's in your best interests that you DON'T believe in karma."

    you like watching two people punch each other stupid in the ring. nuff said.

  • Comment number 68.

    Hello all and thanks for all your comments, fascinating stuff as ever. Not a great deal to add except to pick up on a couple of comments about the BBC's lack of coverage of boxing...

    Obviously, it's not shown on the telly at the moment and I can understand the frustration with that, while also understanding the reasons why. However, I can't let the continued suggestions that the BBC does not cover boxing at all pass. It seems to me that some people, for whatever reason, wilfully ignore the coverage on this website or indeed BBC radio: it is suggested above that we didn't cover Mayweather-Cotto - we did a preview and a fight report, which is still on the boxing index; it is also suggested we don't mention Carl Froch - when the fight was announced I interviewed him in Nottingham, I will be blogging round the fight and have blogged on him many, many times. The fight will also be on 5 live and Nottingham radio; then someone says we didn't mention Paul McCloskey's defeat at the weekend - again, there is a report on the boxing index and it was covered by NI TV and radio.

  • Comment number 69.

    Haye & Chisora meeting in the ring?! Never saw that coming. Total surprise, innit. Still, they're both Blue Square league. Would rather watch the Div 2 playoffs.

  • Comment number 70.

    I've lost all patience with boxing. When people like Tyson and Lenox lewis were around then it was an interesting, if bloody and sometimes thugish sport. But they were characters. I thought David Haye was going to be someone who could challange the Klitchkos and provide a rivary that could continue for the years to come. But with everything that has happened since (and what happened to him retireing at 30 anyway?) its just continued to be a dull, feckless sport which charges a huge amount of money for not much entertainment.

    Notable exceptions to the likes of Pacquiao, who actually do the sport credit.

  • Comment number 71.

    The snobs have decided that we're uncultured oafs if we watch this, but frankly, at least its two blokes who actually seem to want to fight each other. However unpleasant their motivations may be, I'd rather watch that, than a contrived match-up designed to preserve the unbeaten record of one of the countless 'world champions'. Until boxing finds a way to make the best fight the best, it had better get used to the public finding spectacles like this one more interesting.

  • Comment number 72.

    @71 You have a point there, and it must be snobs at the BBC who keep it off the TV completely.

    I don't know the financials of it, but would it cost that much to play some of the big fights from the states a week later? You'd still get a big audience for them.

    Even a highlights show would be better than nothing. There is definitely an agenda against boxing at the BBC, and it's strange when there is a big appetite for it and certainly a regular place for it on terrestrial TV.

  • Comment number 73.

    Bare knuckles to the death, no doctors. Why not? It's not proper boxing, hasn't been sanctioned by BBBC, to be fought by non-persons who have no British licences and this would be clearly what followers of this farce would want.

  • Comment number 74.

    To all the self satisfying moral crusaders, get real u hypocrits! Boxing and boxers like Haye and Chisora are easy targets for all you cricket and rugby fans who like to think you are so perfect.

    Haye and Chisora are not personally responsible for setting all the moral standards in this country. Where are the moral standards from politicians? Invesment bankers? footballers? Surely they have more responsibility than Haye and Chisora.

    Stop picking on them because they are easy targets and get real, open ur eyes and look at the world around u!

    Society is already morally bankrupt, not because of Haye and Chisora.

  • Comment number 75.

    Ben, appalling behaviour is not justified by the fact that there has been appalling behaviour in the past.
    In any case, your intro fails even on that basis: the fight between Ali and Foreman wasn't marred by the pre-fight antics of the two fighters, so there is really no comparison. Don King's criminal record and President Mobutu's dictatorship were peripheral to the fight and do not seriously detract from it.
    You are on only slightly stronger ground with London and Tyson, but no-one "eulogises over" their behaviour. It was rightly condemned then, just as the behaviour of these two losers is now. There is no hypocrisy.
    Sorry, but your logic is all to cock on this.

  • Comment number 76.

    #70, Pacaquiao really, the man won't subscribe to a form of random drug testing less invasive than most other professional sports, although for some bizarre reason not required for boxing. What sort of message does that send out?

  • Comment number 77.

    rsmatthews - Obviously, I completely disgree. My comparison with Ali-Foreman wasn't supposed to be exact. I was just pointing out that Ali-Foreman was far more riddled with moral bankruptcy than Haye-Chisora. In your view, which is worse? A fight organised by a convicted criminal, driven by the money stolen by a despot from his poverty-stricken people or two blokes having a fight at a press conference? King and Mobutu peripheral? I'm sorry, but that's wilful self-delusion.

    On Tyson-Lewis, I didn't say anyone eulogises over them. I said people eulogise over Ali-Foreman. And yes, it was condemned, and then millions went out and watched it. That's the hypocrisy.

  • Comment number 78.

    this fight should not be allowed to go ahead since neither boxer is licenced by the BBBofC. this sends out the wrong message (behave as you want, it really doesnt matter) and the luxembourg federation have merely undermined the british board on this matter. Its a farce and further demonstrates the sorry state of boxing (this comes from a lifelong fan)

  • Comment number 79.

    Is nothing mad about this bout. Two lame barking dogs will pretend to bite each other.

  • Comment number 80.

    Ben the BBC does not cover sky related sports in the same way apart from football.

  • Comment number 81.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 82.

    YOU TELL EM BIG MAN!!!
    I'm perfectly happy this fight is going ahead. It might even force the hand of the boxing authorities to re-arrange their set-up for the benefit of the sport. So as absurd as it is that these two idiots get to make money from a profession both have brought into disrepute, it only goes to shed light on the poor management of said sport at the very top(s).

  • Comment number 83.

    Should this fight go ahead? - No, I think it is wrong for thugish behaviour to be rewarded.

    Ami I really interested in the story and the outcome of the fight? Notwithstanding the above, yes I am. The same clearly goes for plenty of others.

    Can't really complain about Frank being a hypocrite when the majority of us are pretty hypocritical about this stuff ourselves.

    Good blog as ever BD.

  • Comment number 84.

    Lets be honest about this, if boxing was a person in todays society, it would be given a multi million pound payday and would be held up (probably by Frank Warren) as someone wholesome who deserves the right to feed himself. It would then sail off into the sunset until the next time comes for mugs to be seperated from their money.

  • Comment number 85.

    And the difference between this and American wrestling is...?

  • Comment number 86.

    yorkshire_blogster - It's got nothing to do with whether they are Sky-related, it's to do with whether the BBC has TV rights to them. Our editorial policy, whether you agree with it or not, is to use the website to bolster our TV coverage. Hence we go big on certain events, not so big on others. But we still cover pretty much everything.

    So it's just slightly irritating when you make stuff up - "the only coverage on the main NBC (I assume you mean BBC?) sport homepage this last month (aside from may weather winning) are two negative stories." Erm, yeh... apart from Bellew, McCloskey (which you seem convinced we didn't cover), Hopkins-Dawson, Terry Spinks, Cleverly, DeGale, Fury-Rogan, the success of GB's Olympic boxers. I could go on...

    BBC hate Sky, Boxnation and anyone else who shows boxing. Nothing on the demarcus Corley surprise defeat or prize fighter because BBC is biased beyond belief.

  • Comment number 87.

    The answer to this circus show is simple. DON'T WATCH IT. Don't give Hearn the money via PPV and let's see it have the lowest ever recorded audience. What would be even better would be to 'see' the arena empty too. Then perhaps we won't see an endless string of rematches

    This 'fight' sums up all that is wrong with boxing, especially the heavyweight division. I think Chisora genuinely has a screw lose and Haye is just a joke. They are welcome to each other and this is about the only action they can get in the ring.

    How we long for a proper set of contenders who not only talk the talk but can walk the walk too. These two clowns can barely manage the talk part!

  • Comment number 88.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 89.

    Decent blog, shame about many of the responses...

    Firstly anyone who claims both fighters are bums clearly haven't watched much boxing.

    Haye had a disappointing night against Wladimir but there's no shame in that - just ask Manny Steward (who knows a thing or two) about how good Wlad really is. Haye was outsized that night but I also feel he got the tactics all wrong, arguably hampered by the toe injury - which, in a sport where balance is everything and strength comes from the legs, didn't deserve quite the mockery it got. Still, losing wasn't the end of the world.

    Besides that fight though he's very rarely disappointed. The first half of his career was totally refreshing for a modern day fighter - he was extremely dismissive of being involved with promoters like Warren who sought ££s over helping fighters achieve their maximum career potential. Haye could've easily done what some of Britains best fighters (Hatton, Hamed, Calzaghe etc) have done in the past and just racked up meaningless WBO defences on home-soil before bothering to test themselves.

    He chose not to - his goal was to unify the Cruiser division (admittedly not the best but you can only beat whats in front of you), and was happy to venture to fighters own backyards to do so. After that he sought to take on the biggest challenge avaiable to him which was dethroning the Klitschko bros at heavy - and people want to criticize him for this?

    The reason people have the gall to question Haye's ability are because they're casual fans who have only bothered to watch him since making noises at heavy.

    Yes, some of his antics have been distasteful since moving to heavyweight but read little into it. They've been calculated moves to maximise public interest in a flagging division, fasttrack his way to title-shots and the earn the big ££s - most fighters would do the same in his position if they could pull it off. Away from that though it doesn't take away from the training camps and dedication and work he's put in to become a bona fide heavy.

    ...

    Chisora's not nearly in the same league, deserves the criticism for his countless antics but at the end of the day, still put in a commendable performance versus a very formidable Vitali that deserves recognition.

    On the back of that performance - is Haye vs Chisora really as meaningless as people like Maloney would make out? I mean, if Chisora was really that bad, why was Vitali fighting him in the first place? Bearing in mind Haye's been inactive and has little interest in fighting the countless other meaningless fighters in the division which won't make nearly the same amount of money, the Chisora fight makes sense on a lot of levels, even more-so after the ruckus in Germany.

    Beat Chisora convincingly and suddenly a Haye/Vitali match-up looks more likely.


    ...

    About that ruckus in Germany - again, those supposed traditional boxing fans up in arms about it. If you want to be up in arms fine, but don't be hypocritical - many of the best boxers have been involved in brawls outside the ring, at press conferences etc - Larry Holmes, Marco Antonio Barrera, Lennox Lewis, Eric Morales, Mike Tyson, Muhammad Ali, Joe Frazier. Do Haye and Chisora just deserve to more criticism because they're not as good? C'mon now..

    The most shocking thing about that incident was the lack of any security and intervention that prevents these sorts of things happening when "fighters" are in the same room and tempers are flaring. From first hand experience I have to say in terms of boxing organisation, Germany has a LOT to learn.


    ...

    What I can agree with is the criticism of Warren, the total ineptness (which stretches to their involvement during the weekend of Vitali/Chisora) and lack of power the BBoC have over this which outlines the joke which is how boxing is run as a sport in general. But going into detail about that is another can of worms....

  • Comment number 90.

    @67. I was equating the gross disrespect in general and clearly NOT comparing Haye and Chisora to those names if you read what wrote correctly. Unless that is I misread your comment and you condone that kind of nasty sentiment?

  • Comment number 91.

    Will one of these thugs lose the fight but at some later stage, shoot his opponent in revenge ?
    The German police should have prosecuted them to set an example.
    No wonder boxing isn't shown on the BBC when its clear the divided authorities who sanction the sport have no effective control over the contestants.
    Whilst an out of control dog might be shot, the preferable option would be to bring it under control by other means.
    Sensible management would be a good start.

  • Comment number 92.

    Oh and another thing - there's a difference between a 'pay per view' boxing match and a subscription boxing channel.

    This fight isn't being sold as a pay per view bout, it's just showing on a dedicated boxing channel that many fans of the sport will already have if they want to watch fights like Margarito/Cotto and Mayweather/Cotto.

    So yea, i'm not sure why many are saying it's a pay per view fight, unless they deem anything besides terrestial as pay per view.

  • Comment number 93.

    Ali is probably crying at the state of affairs! the Klits may not be everyones cup of tea or even that great but at least they know how to act and what boxing is about...these two brits have no class at all and should be made an example of full stop.....I used to love boxing with a passion, now its just a joke

  • Comment number 94.

    @37, he has a point though surely?

    I dont find the commet distasteful at all, its nothign to take to heart, just stating the honest truth about boxing at the moment.

  • Comment number 95.

    Good blog Ben - hits the nail on the head in many respects. These controversies have always been around in boxing. However it's a ridiculous situation that the fight could be sanctioned in this way - that it has been only highlights the need for a strong centralised global governing body for the sport. As many have pointed out, the number of governing bodies, belts etc is completely devaluing titles and undermining the credibility of what remains a great sport. Boxing desperately needs a period of reform where the governing bodies and belts are reduced and brought under a central umbrella so that there are no longer "made up" titles and so fighters (or more appropriately, their promoters) cannot avoid mandated match ups. Sadly I expect this will only happen when enough people turn their backs on the sport that it is forced to do so for self-preservation. Money always talks loudest (and I don't mean Mayweather, although it's often true!)

    That this fight is happening surprises no one in boxing - it was sadly inevitable following the convenient fracas in Munich. The bigger problem - as Ben correctly points out - is that to casual observers of the sport this becomes their perception of how boxing "always is". Chisora and Haye are not "the norm" for boxers. Most are humble, avoid controversy and fight their hearts out in the ring. The problem is that self-promoting idiots like these two are the ones that make the news.

  • Comment number 96.

    I find Haye's style of boxing most ugly and absolutely boring, I have not seen Chisora in action atall, but did hear the radio 5 live commentary when he challanged the elder Klitschko and went the distance. I formed the opinion that the man was durable and game. So, thats the only thing I have learned about Chisora.
    The aftermath of that fight was the fiasco in the dressing room, absolutely disgraceful. Even if that were just a setup for a publicity to fool the worldwide of boxing followers ,that disgraceful display has made me feel ashamed of this sport as it has now become a complete shambles.
    I always do my best to see a good boxing event whenever there is a possibility. I cannot understand how Frank Warren has the conscience to go against this lands board of control finding a loophole into using a rule from Luxomburg.
    Pro boxing has to have publicity through a good fight talk by the contestents facing up to each other, this is all part of the ballyhoo to boost interest, all for money.But, there is a limit to how far one can go.

  • Comment number 97.

    dexxmaster - See I think you're absolutely wrong there. Ali has far more in common with David Haye than either Klitschkos. Ali could be extremely nasty in the build-up to fights - he showed little class and was just big, brash and you can be sure he would've mocked the Klitschkos robotic styles in equal measure. I think he would've found the Klitschkos boring beyond belief, and would've preferred Haye despite his inferior ability.

  • Comment number 98.

    Vis B - Have you watched Haye fight beyond the bouts against Valuev and Wladimir (when he was vastly outsized and boxed differently)? Because I can't for the life of me understand how you could find his style 'ugly and absolutely boring' otherwise...

    Whatever you do, don't watch Bernard Hopkins - you might just keel over!

  • Comment number 99.

    How can anyone state that this an honourable sport - you only have to look at the behaviour of those who participate; the associated rewards and how they ultimately conduct themselves. Whilst the sport offers a release, do you really believe that in any civilised society this an acceptable form of entertainment - if so, then why are not watching - cock and dog fighting live on Sky - ah yes; those who are not really in a position to make informed decisions are manipulated by others; for their own immediate benefit; into entering the ring. Yes the rewards are great but it raises a more wider question - why does the general populous enjoy it so much and is there an underlying moral fibre issue?

  • Comment number 100.

    90. At 12:05 9th May 2012, f1fan2011 wrote:
    "@67. I was equating the gross disrespect in general and clearly NOT comparing Haye and Chisora to those names if you read what wrote correctly. Unless that is I misread your comment and you condone that kind of nasty sentiment?"

    the "gross disrespect in general" which you inferred is imagined. i only mentioned haye and chisora. unless your examples are directly comparable to them, it's a red herring and an appeal to emotion.

 

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