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Hamilton on path to redemption

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Andrew Benson | 12:24 UK time, Sunday, 16 October 2011

Lewis Hamilton talked about using the Korean Grand Prix to "redeem" himself after a turbulent series of races. It was a strong choice of word, reflective it seems of a man somewhat battle-weary after a long, trying season. But if redemption was what he was after, he went a long way towards achieving it in Yeongam.

Unable to keep pace with Sebastian Vettel's winning Red Bull, Hamilton drove a virtually flawless defensive race, holding off the faster car of the German's team-mate Mark Webber for the duration.

His one mistake came on the first lap, when after converting pole position into a lead at the first corner, Hamilton admitted that he "didn't position my car very well" on the run down to Turn Four. "I didn't realise there was a car-length gap on the side," he said.

It was all the invitation Vettel needed to take the lead and drive off into a race of his own, taking his 10th win of the season to keep alive the possibility of equalling Michael Schumacher's all-time record of 13 wins in a season. Red Bull's one-three sealed a constructors' title that was as inevitable as the drivers' crown Vettel won in Japan a week ago.

After a taking a superb pole position on Saturday, Hamilton had hopes of winning in Korea. But the context of Sunday afternoon suggests that he achieved that position at the front of the grid more through sheer driving bravado than any car advantage.

It was certainly a stunning lap - the car dancing on the edge, alive in Hamilton's hands, in a way it has not been in recent races.

But come race day, Vettel's Red Bull was untouchable. He drove it like he has so many others this year, using just enough of the car's pace to pull out a comfortable gap without stressing the tyres and controlling the race from there.

Just how much pace Vettel had in hand became clear on the last lap when, just for fun, he went for the fastest lap of the race. The result was a time a massive 0.854 seconds faster than the mark Hamilton had set the lap before.

As Hamilton himself said ruefully: "Either way, he was going to overtake me." The other Red Bull, though, did not.

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McLaren team boss Martin Whitmarsh described Hamilton's performance as "one of his great, great drives".

"When you have a car behind you which is frankly quicker and has DRS," Whitmarsh said, "to be able to hold on and hold on like that was a truly brilliant drive."

In truth, it is unlikely to be remembered alongside some of Hamilton's true landmark performances - among which are his two wins this season. Whitmarsh, it should be remembered, is trying to boost the confidence of a man going through a difficult period. But it was certainly of the highest calibre.

Struggling with understeer - the handling characteristic Hamilton dislikes most - he did not put a foot wrong in defending from Webber for the entire 55 laps.

The closest it got was after their second pit stops on lap 34, when Webber made a determined challenge into Turn Four, and the two diced it out for the remainder of the lap. Hamilton used all his peerless race craft to hang on.

Hamilton's subdued mood after qualifying caused much comment and although he was not exactly jumping around after the race, he did at least afford himself a smile.

"Especially with the amount of pressure I was being put under," he said, "it's very easy to lock up and make mistakes, to go wide but I didn't do that once so I'm very, very happy in terms of that performance.

"The last six races I've not been anywhere near that position so it feels good to be back."

It has, as has been well documented, been a difficult season for Hamilton, but the last few races have been particularly tough for him.

After his victory in Germany, hard-won in a race-long battle with Ferrari's Fernando Alonso and Webber, Hamilton again led for much of the Hungarian Grand Prix a week later, only for two incorrect tyre choices to leave him down in fourth at the flag, as his team-mate Jenson Button won.

But it was after the summer break that things really began to unravel.

In Belgium, he tangled with Williams's Pastor Maldonado in qualifying and then crashed out of the race after colliding with Sauber's Kamui Kobayashi when, in hindsight, he could have got at least a podium finish, and perhaps even won.

That led to a subdued performance in Italy, in which he spent a harrowing time trying to break Schumacher's aggressive defence after making a mistake in letting the German pass him at a restart.

Singapore was another eventful weekend, featuring contretemps with Ferrari's Felipe Massa on and off the track in both qualifying and race.

In this period, Button had driven consistently superbly, and Hamilton's team-mate left Singapore having finished second to Vettel and as the only one of the Red Bull driver's rivals still in with a mathematical chance of stopping him winning the title.

And then came Japan. McLaren had the fastest car at Suzuka and Hamilton missed a chance to take pole when he failed to get round in time to start a second qualifying lap before the session ended and he lined up third, behind Vettel and Button.

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Hamilton was quickly up to second behind Vettel on the first lap, but from there he went backwards, his race ruined by high tyre wear, and he finished fifth as Button won.

The suspicion is that this disparity between the McLaren drivers' performances in Japan is what explains Hamilton's behaviour in Korea, particularly after qualifying.

This is a man who believes strongly that he is the fastest driver in the world - and also that both he and Alonso are better than Vettel.

Already he has had to watch Vettel win two world titles in the fastest car - titles Hamilton believes he would have won had he been in that car.

Yet at Suzuka, Button, it could be said, was conclusively, out-and-out faster than Hamilton for the first time ever in a fully dry race - at arguably the world's greatest drivers' circuit. That will have taken some swallowing.

In that context, Hamilton's remarks about "redeeming myself" make more sense. And the seemingly innocuous comment after the race that he was "happy to be the one who got the most points for the team" takes on more meaning.

With the drivers' title settled, some have said, this season is effectively dead with three races still to go.

In fact, it's quite the reverse - out there on the race track, there remains an awful lot at stake.

Comments

Page 1 of 4

  • Comment number 1.

    A very troubled young man, and deluded too, if he thinks he and Alonso are better than Vettel at the moment.

  • Comment number 2.

    Hamilton is a class act, and time will see him return to glory. He needs the backing of a manger and the team for him to show us what we all know he can do.

    Yes to RTL with 5Live. No to Sky. Yes to a more honest and upfront approach from the BBC.

  • Comment number 3.

    Chrisk sakes! just allow the man to breathe and get on with it, all of this psychological profiling being presented as "the gospel according to Andrew Benson" is ridicoulous Lewis is going thorough a rough patch like all drivers of his calibre do and he will get through it and we hope it forms him into an even better man and driver...

  • Comment number 4.

    Nice to see a someone else who also noticed the significance of hamilton's "happy to be the one who got the most points for the team" comment

  • Comment number 5.

    At 1. Give Vettel a dreadful car like the Ferrari and see where he finishes the race.

  • Comment number 6.

    As I pointed out on Sarah Holt's blog, Sebastian's "win" should be questioned albeit on a technicality as he did not get weighed after the race. He stepped onto the weigh bridge but did not step on a load cell. The weigh bridge operator called out the weight of another driver and Seb then stepped off the weigh bridge all the time in conversation with Christian H.

    Sorry rules is rules

  • Comment number 7.

    At no 1
    Troubled maybe but deluded no just confident You may not agree with him every driver out there is confident in their own ability. Mark Webber says he will win a race this season, who sees that happening? But he believes it. The same with Alonso. Jenson saya he can win the title next year personally i dont see it if lewis is on form i dont see it happening but because its lewis that is confident in his ability hes arrogant and deluded.

  • Comment number 8.

    Excellent drive from Hammy and a charging Alonso. Both managed to get the most out of the car without ringing it's neck or hurting their race. Not surprised to see Lewis can keep a faster RB7 behind him.!
    I can't help thinking his driving style would be better suited to driving an RB7 setup as he can clearly go faster the way he was flicking that Mclaren around in Qualy.!

  • Comment number 9.

    Hamilton and Alonso are in a different league. Vettel is overrated and in easily the fastest car. Alonso and Hamilton deserve better and everyone knows that for a couple of years now, Vettel you've had your chance.

    As for post number 1, Vettel faster than Hamilton and Alonso?? Hahaha Don't make me chuckle.

  • Comment number 10.

    You can't deny though that it would be fascinating to see Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton et al. compete in the same car, Red Bull, McLaren, Ferrari, whatever. Or is that where the 2012 Regulations are taking us anyway?

  • Comment number 11.

    @no1....At what point did Lewis say that he was better than Vettel at the moment?
    Deluded....what planet are you on....the guy clearly believes in his ability and is certainly of taking to Vettel as is Alonso.!

  • Comment number 12.

    To confirm the rules from the horses mouth (http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/rules_and_regulations/sporting_regulations/8688/fia.html);

    Section 26 Weighing

    7) a car or driver may not leave the FIA garage without the consent of the FIA technical delegate;

    b) After the race every classified car will be weighed. If a driver wishes to leave his car before it is weighed he must ask the technical delegate to weigh him in order that this weight may be added to that of the car.

    26.2 In the event of any breach of these provisions for the weighing of cars the stewards may drop the driver such number of grid positions as they consider appropriate or exclude him from the race.

  • Comment number 13.

    Lewis is a professional elite athele who has outstanding talent. Its unfortunate for everyone that Red Bull have created a car which is untouchable, but I believe and hope that the slight rule changes for next year will bring them back down to earth.

    McLaren, have always been the comeback kings as DC so rightly mentioned, but because of major rule changes at the end of previous season in the past all their hard work was in vain as the car needed to change for the next season.

    Role on 2012, Lewis is incredibly mentally strong, it doesn't matter how he comes across to the media or what other people thing about him, how many other drivers could defend the way he did today against a faster car, to me thats what makes a champion, and proving all his critics wrong by sticking his motor on pole, what he has learnt this season will show next season, and we'll all be right behind him.

  • Comment number 14.

    Ham is best, the rest is the rest

  • Comment number 15.

    BBC needs to stop the negativity re Lewis. The guy has made mistakes, but so have others. Even when Lewis does a good job, BBC still finds something negative about Lewis to report. In future, don't expect LH to do more than his obligatory interviews with the beeb and more with Sky! Looking forward to watching formula 1 on Sky!

  • Comment number 16.

    @No 10 I agree that would make fascinating racing each of them in the same car...! It would certainly prove a lot of people wrong I think.

  • Comment number 17.

    @aWageslave

    The top 3 drivers don't get weighed on that scale after the race. They get weighed in the podium room. Vettel was being encouraged away for that reason.

  • Comment number 18.

    What happened to BBC's Golden Boy Jenson? 4th? Haha Good job he didn't speak on the forum otherwise there would have been man hugs and bear hugs galore when Lewis comes on it's like ok good job but JB is better than you...

  • Comment number 19.

    I don't know why half of you watch F1, all you seem to want to do is moan about unfair you think it is.

    No to Sky, yes to FTA.

  • Comment number 20.

    @ Beschy....don't know about anyone else, but I watch because I am a fan and like you...have an opinion.!

    Why do you watch?

  • Comment number 21.

    Anybody noticed his lack of pleasure, even after this race? Lewis seems to be acting as the "unsettled" driver. I bet he is in the middle of negotiations and his current results don't allow him to get the maximum out of it. So his gameplan seems to be to act as if he is leaving and therefore he can't show pleasure when the car does well, coz it would undermine the negotiations. I am afraid that the pure driver Hamilton has truly been replaced by the brand "Hamilton". A shame; he was once a driver to support, but he has turned into a sulking spoiled child. You have lost me as a fan Lewis, I like drivers who enjoy winning and look eager for revenge when they lose. However; I don't like sulking babies and "entertainment brands". Go back to your racing roots and enjoy yourself again. Get rid of that X-Factor entertainment agent of yours, just get a good assistant... and go back to racing!

  • Comment number 22.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 23.

    The BBC journalists are doing their job, end of. I'm sure you don't agree with every story thats written in the tabloids but thats the media.

    If the BBC want to "bash" Hamilton then they will, no matter how much protest there is. I do think he gets more scrutiny than anyone other than maybe Schumacher, but if you're in the firing line (i.e. making mistakes and putting himself in the position to get penalties) then expect to take the shots.

    It is not bias, the man brings it on himself.

  • Comment number 24.

    The championship may be over - but what I wouldn't give for Lewis to overtake JB this year. If only for it to make it interesting for us. Throw Alonso in the mix and the remaining races will be worth the watch, even though we KNOW Vettel is going to win all 3!

  • Comment number 25.

    "In Belgium, he tangled with Williams's Pastor Maldonado in qualifying"

    Well put Andrew. How very objective and impartial.

    Martin Brundle missed an excellent opportunity during the grid walk to ask Rob Smedley about his now infamous "let's destroy Hamilton's race" radio message shortly before Felipe collided with Lewis.

    Bernie Ecclestone has been conspicuous by his absence from both the BBC coverage and the gridwalks since the BBC-Sky cartel deal was made public.

    Surprised at the relative lack of criticism of Jenson Button for dropping places. Anything to do with Jenson's annual dinner for F1 journalists? ;-)

  • Comment number 26.

    It was a bit annoying when Button was behind the Ham/Web battle and the commentators were suggesting that the only reason he wasn't overtaking them and driving into the distance was that he was "biding his time". And Ted talking about how much oversteer Lewis was getting compared to Jenson because of how much kinder Jenson is on his tyres. Didn't really help him too much.
    Brilliant drives by Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso (and well done Jaime too).

  • Comment number 27.

    Nobody can say vettel is a better driver when he's made like what, 5 overtakes this season? Hamilton and alonso are probably leading the way in that, or at least most spectacular overtakes... Cmon Hamilton win it next year!!

  • Comment number 28.

    At post 22 I am LewisWDC and will come onto Not606 and haunt you!

  • Comment number 29.

    Poor Lewis can't win

  • Comment number 30.

    Hamilton has already proven he is faster than Alonso in the same car, his raw speed and race craft would leave Vettel trailing if they were in the same car. My money's on Hamilton in a much more competetive car in 2012 for the championship.

  • Comment number 31.

    Hamilton is just true to the breed. F1 drivers like the personal plaudits but they know the car is what wins the race and if they havent got the best car they lose and they sulk. If its not sorted next year sulk will turn to walk.

  • Comment number 32.

    26.At 13:53 16th Oct 2011, imperialp wrote: It was a bit annoying when Button was behind the Ham/Web battle and the commentators were suggesting that the only reason he wasn't overtaking them and driving into the distance was that he was "biding his time". And Ted talking about how much oversteer Lewis was getting compared to Jenson because of how much kinder Jenson is on his tyres. Didn't really help him too much.
    Brilliant drives by Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso (and well done Jaime too).
    ----------------------------
    Another typical example of the bias that we regularly now see from the BBC.

    Loved Lewis double checking if the stewards were up to their old tricks again when he got interviewed.

  • Comment number 33.

    Yes BBC, please stop going on about Hamilton, he was on pole & still couldn't beat Vettel.

  • Comment number 34.

    I can't believe people are downgrading Vettel's achievements by saying the Red Bull is untouchable ?! In which case, what has Webber been doing in an untouchable car ? Picking up the shopping ?

    We're incredibly lucky to have some incredibly quick drivers that would have graced any era of the sport in Hamilton, Vettel and Alonso, coupled with people who may not be as quick (see Prost vs Senna) but who have the maturity and skill to bring out the best in a car such as Button.

    Be grateful people, and really, stop the bitching. Andrew Benson and Sarah Holt are employed to report the stories in F1 and offer their opinions. That's what they're doing. If you disagree, it doesn't mean they're wrong, you just have a different opinion.

    There's no witch-hunt going on ! Relax !

  • Comment number 35.

    @32

    A pathetic whinger clearly needs his ears syringed as all weekend both DC and Brundle were happy to see the old Lewis back and marvelled at his pole lap

  • Comment number 36.

    Even in a blog praising Lewis, there are further references to his errors this season, a link to a previous report would have sufficed, no need to further repeat them. Clearly it has not been his best season, and what has been a bit worrying is that he has taken the blame for incidents that were arguably 50/50% this season.

    But today was a good race by Lewis, all he can do is maximise the potential of the car, which he has done today, and what he hasn't been doing for a number of races this season.

    Hopefully though the McLaren will be more competitive next season.

  • Comment number 37.

    1.
    @yellowbelly wrote:
    "A very troubled young man, and deluded too, if he thinks he and Alonso are better than Vettel at the moment."

    A too silly and melodramatic interpretation! I doubt yellowbelly has ever met an F1 driver or engaged them in conversation.

    Mostly the trouble and delusion is on the part of F1 opinionistas like yellowbelly.
    It's a sport and to be at world class level you have to have belief in your ability and the ability to deliver - which all the top drivers have. Otherwise they would be doing boring jobs, like whatever the yellowbellies of this world do, with plenty of time to fantasize.

  • Comment number 38.

    Well done Lewis, very solid drive under a lot of pressure. Lets have a win before the end of the season.

  • Comment number 39.

    JayF12012 wrote:
    What happened to BBC's Golden Boy Jenson? 4th? Haha Good job he didn't speak on the forum otherwise there would have been man hugs and bear hugs galore when Lewis comes on it's like ok good job but JB is better than you.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    It is this sort of stupid comment that makes me wonder what the average age of the posters on this site really are. It is noticeable that whenever Lewis outperforms his teammate this site is infested with commentators who seem to take great pleasure in making snide and quite frankly juvenile observations.

    What is a greater pity is that Lewis and Jenson both respect each others driving skills and must get frustrated having to put up with these so called F1 fans.

  • Comment number 40.

    What's all this about RTL & 5Live?

  • Comment number 41.

    Absolutely correct Rustigjongens.......

  • Comment number 42.

    I find it incredible that alleged formula one fans still bang on about irrelevant rubbish surrounding Vettel. What is all of this "stick Vettel in a Ferrari and see where he finishes?" supposed to mean? He'd finish 4th in the championship most likely, along with anyone else saddled with an inferior car to the leading team. Then there is the absolute tripe about "put the top drivers in the same car and see how well Vettel does then." Er what? Have you actually ever watched formula one? It's never been equal in its history! Newsflash for those that make these comments: the best TEAM always wins the drivers and constructors championship. Always. Formula 1 is a TEAM sport, not an individual sport. The best package wins: driver, team, engineer, car, strategy. To remove one component of that and hold it to examination is pointless. Vettel is a double world champion. Hamilton isn't. Results matter, opinion doesn't. It's not Red Bulls fault that no one has managed to build a car to compete with them. What next? Extended this argument to other sports too, like football? Man United have dominated the league for the past 20 years, I suppose you could say that Ryan Giggs only won of all of his medals because he played in the best team, he was just an average player... or the real point which is he is an excellent player for 20 years that earned a place in the best team.
    Get over it. Vettel's results speak for themselves. Drivers cannot compensate for the inadequacies of a team. They can maybe pull something out of the bag occasionally over a single race, but not over an entire season. Drivers do not win championships, teams do, and F1 is a team sport. The drivers are one part of that formula.

  • Comment number 43.

    As good as Vettel is, it should be remembered that he has the best car, and arguably the best team by a country mile, and successive wins boosts confidence beyond belief. They are so together. There is no doubt in my mind that Alonso and Hamilton are at least as good Vettel but they do not have the wherewithall to demonstrate it. While conditions, strategy, or set up can boost competitors cars enough to win in certain circumstances, the underlying supremacy of the Red Bull car always returns to the fore. - It looks ominous for next year with Newey promising yet another ground breaking car.

  • Comment number 44.

    33. At 14:46 16th Oct 2011, Ragnarokkr wrote:
    Yes BBC, please stop going on about Hamilton, he was on pole & still couldn't beat Vettel.


    Who had the fastest car? Yeah Hamilton for sure that's why he was second. If you love Vettel so much go to his Youtube and meet up with him for a smooch session you deluded guy.

  • Comment number 45.

    21 , Well said.....I applaude you! I like Hamilton but he behaves far too much like a petulant child, my 4 year old son is having the same tantrums!! Well done Button on what he has achieved this year and well done to Vettel, I may not like you but I've got to respect what you have achieved! And where have you been Webber, I so wanted you to do well this year. I look forward to next year, though I will have to read it on the internet as I won't be paying for Sky Sports!!

  • Comment number 46.

    No mention of Hamilton's puncture at Suzuka that gifted Button the place, no bias then.

    Hamilton is probably the best driver in F1 currently but he lacks the mindset and maturity to fully deliver what he is capable on a consistent basis.

    Today we saw a glimpse of it, he was the only man capable of beating a Red Bull, although the drinks company did make a mess of Webbers race by bringing him in when they did.

  • Comment number 47.

    "Hamilton is probably the best driver in F1 currently"

    The record books say different.

    "but he lacks the mindset and maturity to fully deliver what he is capable on a consistent basis."

    But's and if's don't matter. If I had the mindset and the money and the racing maturity, I could be the best driver in F1. If.

    You've undermined your own argument. Part of being the best driver is dealing with mindset and maturity. So, logically, how can you say that Hamilton is the best driver? The only way you can measure how good a driver is in F1 is by results. Nothing else matters.

  • Comment number 48.

    Good performances from Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel. I get the feeling that Webber would have been off into the distance if he had passed Hamilton; that Red Bull looked so fast today, which is strange as the McLaren has generally had better 'race-compared-to-quali' pace this year. But well-worked defence by Hamilton today to keep Webber behind him. Thought Alonso's "I give up" message was hilarious; Alonso never gives up.

    It seems to be a quite common complaint about Lewis that he's deluded for, allegedly, thinking he's the best racer. I was under the impression that most of the drivers think they're the best, and that even Liuzzi and Ricciardo believe they could win the WDC in the right car. It's the first requirement of being a professional sportsman to believe you're the best. If you don't believe it, you won't be. Remember Ricciardo's first interview at the British GP, where he said he believes he can win the WDC in a few years? That has to be the aim, if you don't want to win, don't turn up.

  • Comment number 49.

    I think it's fair (though subjective) to say that Hamilton is the quickest driver in F1 currently, but as misophotography correctly states, that's a very different thing from being the best......

  • Comment number 50.

    45. At 15:20 16th Oct 2011, margaret wrote:
    21 , Well said.....I applaude you! I like Hamilton but he behaves far too much like a petulant child, my 4 year old son is having the same tantrums!! Well done Button on what he has achieved this year and well done to Vettel, I may not like you but I've got to respect what you have achieved! And where have you been Webber, I so wanted you to do well this year. I look forward to next year, though I will have to read it on the internet as I won't be paying for Sky Sports!!

    Hamilton is better than Button so get over it old girl.

  • Comment number 51.

    The likes of Andrew Benson are able to afford the lifestyle they have because they keep people like you and me interested in the tosh they write.......you will surprised how many journs have children in public schools....where do you think the money comes from.........if you think their 'investigative journalism' is for your benefit only, you must be day dreaming....Benson should get off LH's case....LH seems troubled because he is a winner not the usual graceful loser that we've been brought up to admire in this country....LH appreciates that his talents deserves better. Am not a huge fan of Vettel, but you can't blame the bloke for what he's achieved......Webber is in the same car...what's happened to him.....he may be a nice bloke, but he's not paid to be a nice bloke......people may say unprintable things about MSC, but nobody can dispute his will to win.....Vettel is a deserving 2011 F1 championship winner....we'll see how close the ferrarris and mclarens can get to red bull in 2012 to make F1 more competitive. Good drive from LH in Korea, but no doubt that red bull do have a quicker and better performing car. As for Button, have never been a huge fan, but he's maturing brilliantly and seems to be living the dream now....after the wasted years in underperforming and no hoper cars and teams....no longer the playboy too busy enjoying the perks, have been very impressed with the way he knuckled down.....Yes to BBC but the commentators are uninspiring and seems to go on about LH....Hamilton realising this, knows that if he does not talk to BBC he knows they would be left scratching their heads as to what would keep viewers watching....he is one of their best talking points....either winning or not....Alonzo, Hamilton and Vettel in a similar competetive car would be very very interesting indeed and might just get me to take the Sky subscription, if its going to be the usual procession race after race....then good luck to sky and Bernie....

  • Comment number 52.

    @ yellowbelly, you really haven't got a clue...... are you, Sarah Holt and Andrew Benson related?
    Hugs and love to all xxx

  • Comment number 53.

    #47 the records show the best driver/car combination, the car is more important than the driver in F1.

    Come back in 10 years time and see what the records show then, we shall see.

    Your argument assumes that drivers are consistent at the same level for their whole career, clearly that's not the case, look at Hakkinen for a good example.

    My point is that if Hamilton can sort his head out and is given a competitive car, he will be unbeatable. The are some ifs and buts of course, that's the whole point of this type of debate, unless you resign yourself to watching Vettel win the next 10 titles, how dull would that be?

  • Comment number 54.

    MCLAREN LOST 10% OF DOWNFORCE AND HAD UNDERSTEER PROBLEMS THAT'S WHY LACK OF PACE AT DIFFERENT STAGES OF THE GRAND PRIX :

    http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/95466

  • Comment number 55.

    ^^^ HAMILTON'S CAR ONLY THOUGH SHOWING HOW POOR BOTTON WAS

  • Comment number 56.

    Vettle just drove into the sunset. The Red Bull is just a far superior car and with Vettle's driving, they are just too gud for the competition. Only Webber could and have the car to challenge Vettel this season.
    Great defensive drive from Lewis to hold off Webber like that was difficult. He never had to resort to illegal moves to cut him off or squeeze him and Webber was fair too, good wheel to wheel action.

    The WDC And constructors championship is gone but at least we have a potential battle for 2nd place.



    Add your comment

  • Comment number 57.

    @27
    The best driver is not the one, who has the most overtaking manoeuvres (I bet, that a driver from a second grade team has the most successful overtaking manoeuvres this season), but the one, who gets the best results, either by being fast, by being a good fighter, by being better at the starts or by being just more. intelligent. Oh and by the way, this has been at least the third successful manoeuvre against Hamilton this season. He had at least three against Alonso, and he had a couple more against Button, Webber, Massa, Rosberg and Schumacher. Vettel did not lead every race from start to finish, and while I don't judge him to be the best "fighter" of the three or four top drivers, he has proven his qualities as a fighter on many occasions.

  • Comment number 58.

    "My point is that if Hamilton can sort his head out and is given a competitive car, he will be unbeatable."

    How boring would that be? :)


    "The are some ifs and buts of course, that's the whole point of this type of debate, unless you resign yourself to watching Vettel win the next 10 titles, how dull would that be?"

    As boring as if Hamilton were to do it. :)

    Seriously though, I think a lot of British people have trouble dealing with the fact that a German is winning things. If Hamilton or Button were streaking away with it, it would be down to their brilliance as drivers, the teamwork etc... I think there is some resentment there.

    Hamilton is a great driver, but he has also proved to be an idiotic one too. Fans will always have their favs who they will always maintain is the best, but at the end of the day the only thing that matters is the record book. Vettels looks pretty impressive so far.

  • Comment number 59.

    Just a couple of questions Mr Benson

    1) When Jenson gets crowded into the first turn and ends up behind the ferraris we are led to believe that he is binding his time, but if you look back at the races this year any one stuffed behind Massa will have their race destroyed ( just as Mr Smedgly put it) and I think Fernando will confirm that. Hence Jenson race was compromised just like the times when Lewis was stuck behind him and took risks to get by which did not pay off.

    2) Why has Lewis been hunted this season for performing below par when webber has been given his own blog on the BBCRD for what, under performing in a world beating car unless Mr 2 fingers is really that great in which case Mark must be in the last season of his F1 and retiring at the end of 2012. And if this happens who will replace him ? It seems if Vettel wins a 3rd title next year then Riccado or Jamie who had a good race today would be perfect in the seat to ride shotgun to Vettel as their is no way they will let another world champ race the no 2 car with him.

    I would like to see all drivers getting equal treatment by the media and maybe just maybe there will be a up and coming reporter with the mind set of the brillient Mr Murray........unbiased..........thats all we ask for.

    As for the race feel sorry for Alonso (and I am no Ferrari fan) for being trapped by Mr slow. Jamie Alg........ for being on the brink of demotion by his team to performing really well in the last few outings well done to him they whipped force india today.

    No to sXy........ yes to free to view unbiased reporting. :) :) :)

  • Comment number 60.

    lewis is just relieved to win finish a race without any incidents, if i was i him i would've left maclaren, red bull cannot dominate the next two years if they did formula 1 not goning to be in a good place, he stcuk with maclaren through three bad years with them, vettel would leave and go to ferrari in the next 3 to 2 years if they cant give him a good car but his going to end up saying " it was my dream to drive for ferrari" hiding the real reason.

    leiws and alonso by far the best drivers out on the grid, jenson's very good, but his no hamilton, hamilton is f1, if he left right now i would stop watching,

    abd the bbc are bais towards vettel, and dislike lewis, do they have a problem with him or something, especially brundle and eddie hate eddie

    that worst part was comparing vettel to senna lol, if thats only if any drivers should be compared senna it is only hamilton

  • Comment number 61.

    This season is dead with 3 races left and next season is dead already becuase we will only be able to see half the races. We get radio coverage though! Rolls eyes.

    No to sky, shame on the BBC (The worst ever organisation)

  • Comment number 62.

    Anyone else miss Eddie this week?

  • Comment number 63.

    @ 44 JayF12012

    "Who had the fastest car? Yeah Hamilton for sure that's why he was second. If you love Vettel so much go to his Youtube and meet up with him for a smooch session you deluded guy."

    Ah diddums, put your toys back in your pram. Button beat Vettel last week, did he have a faster car then too? If yes, why did Button beat him, if not why didn't Hamilton beat Vettel. You Hamilton fanboys make me vomit with your selective reasoning, conspiracy theories & childlike ramblings, blaming everyone else for Hamilton's own failings then expecting everyone to worship him because he finishes second. Ha Ha Ha.

    @ 54, 55 JayF12012 more selective rubbish from you:

    http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2011/10/12666.html

    Quote:

    “Equally, Jenson posted another brilliant, measured drive. On Jenson’s car, too, we discovered after the race that he was also hurting from damage to his car - caused by a rock hitting the front-wing."

    "Delusion", you & like minded Hamilton fanboys are the epitome of the word!

  • Comment number 64.

    Jenson Booton told people the car wasn't quick enough. More like he was not quick enough...

  • Comment number 65.

    What's wrong with hypothesising that Button was biding his time (a comment made in the "heat of the moment" by DC / MB, not Andrew Benson) during the race ? It turns out he wasn't. Should DC and MB put a written apology online just in case people feel a little bit sensitive that they're being biased ?

    Honestly, it seems people are being as sensitive to this as Lewis himself seems to be. We all hypothesise during races. Where would FA have finished if Ferrari had moved Massa out of the way ?

    They also hypothesised Webber may be hitting his rev limiter prior to turn 3. Turns out he wasn't. Was that biased reporting as well ?

    Perspective. Please.

  • Comment number 66.

    I missed Eddie and his excellent views! And of course those shirts ;)
    Mind you we had better get used to a lack of Eddie, we will be seeing a lot less of him next year.

    As always no to sky and shame on the inept organisation of the BBC.

  • Comment number 67.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 68.

    To the people saying that Hamilton is acting like A SULKING SPOILED CHILD, what evidence of this have you got of this?

    Why should he act happy when he finished like most people call it as the 1st looser?
    What question did he no answer honestly? did u even watch the interview? i watched the interview a couple of times to see why people are calling it sulking spoiled child and i really cant see it.
    There is no difference between his interview and everyone else;
    1. he thanks the team,
    2. he talk about the negatives he found a bout the car,
    3. he talks about THE MISTAKES HE MADE IN THE RACE
    4. and generally what he thoughts of the race, which every driver who conducted an interview did, (watch the interviews again)

    I mean if you talk about no being happy on the podium, i didn't see Webber celebrating either, is he also a sulking spoiled child?
    Alonso and a lot of drivers today complained about thier car's pace, are they sulking spoiled children??

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula_one/15325861.stm
    That's button's interview, he does exactly what Hamilton did in his interview, is he a petulant child too??

    21, 45 and anyone saying this, try and spot the difference and get back to me if you can

    I have said it before and will keep mentioning it, people just DON'T like Hamilton and i have yet to really get a reasonable response from anyone

  • Comment number 69.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 70.

    @67

    You want to be back your claims up before someone puts a defamation lawsuit against you

    BTW where is Lewis in the championship still behind Button last I checked.

    Sounds more like you can't read or count

  • Comment number 71.

    I thought Vettel couldn’t race from behind nor overtake?

    I wonder what his critics have to say today.

    No to Sky.

  • Comment number 72.

    @67

    i guess you know nothing about F1 pre 2007 and only support Lewis Hamilton because he happens to support your football team

  • Comment number 73.

    Just to remain "unbiased" Well done to all the drivers, even those that were forced into retirement, there were some very decent drives out there today. Vitaly was penalised 5 places for the next race, deserved or not? Schumi didnt seem to be overly upset over it, however, he may not have been too happy when the cameras were not about. Really looking forward to India, although it will be my 1st and last time watching it. I have kind of accepted the fact that either the beeb or Bernie no longer want us to follow the sport, so I have decided to leave them to it, and find other things to do with my time. Been a great 32 years, but I can't support a sport or organisation, that thinks it is just fine to screw over the fans, especially during the economic climate.

  • Comment number 74.

    @ comment 67 JayF12012

    i am Hamilton fan and you are embarrassing me man
    That's all i will say about that

  • Comment number 75.

    63.
    At 15:53 16th Oct 2011, Ragnarokkr

    on Japan Hamilton had a very bad race by his standard and i believe he himself said in the post interview right?
    i believe in Japan McLaren had the fastest car but Hamilton tires had done a few more laps or maybe he maltreated them and therefore he wasn't able to challenge for a better place
    well done to Button that day for making sure we Mclaren got a lot of points and a win.

    But you can't honestly say this weekend that mcLaren was faster than Redbull, no conspiracy or delusion but it was there and plain for everyone to see

  • Comment number 76.

    Hi all

    Thanks for your comments so far - always strong views where Hamilton is concerned.

    I just wanted to clear up something some of you may have missed about Japan. I note comment 46 about not mentioning Hamilton's puncture in Suzuka. That's because he didn't have one.

    As Ted Kravitz reported on Friday, McLaren said this weekend in Korea that Hamilton did not have a puncture in Japan, despite them saying initially that he did - he noticed a sudden lack of grip and pitted but it turned out the tyres were all fully inflated. You can find more details in our live text from practice: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/9615076.stm

  • Comment number 77.

    I just want to say well done to Lewis. It's a shame that he didn't win but I love how he kept Webber at bay. Fantastic driving.

    I really hope that Mclaren sort themselves out and deliver a fast car from the start of next season. I like Vettel, as he seems like a nice person, but even I will be bored if he wins another title next year by such a distance. I really don't want to see that index finger celebration any time soon.

    Oh and could you imagine what would have happened if Lewis came on the team radio and said ' I give up'.The BBC reporters would have had a field day. But then again it would never happen because even though he has driven poor cars since 2008 he always tries his hardest to race.

    I love Lewis!!

  • Comment number 78.

    Andrew Benson - 'With the drivers' title settled, some have said, this season is effectively dead with three races still to go.'

    Some would say - 'With the drivers' title settled, some have said, this F1 on the BBC is effectively dead with three races still to go.'

    Come on F1 fans help us save F1 from being ruined by SKY by signing this petition Investigation into the legality of the Recent BBC/SKY F1 deal

  • Comment number 79.

    When starting from the front row, do you need to overtake that much? hmmm, I didn't think so. When you make very few errors, do you need to do a lot of overtaking? All of you guys that say Sebastian can not overtake; neither can Hamilton by the looks of it this year-- how many times has he crashed trying to get past someone this season? How long have you guys been watching F1, go back to 2008 and 2009 when Sebastian did a lot of overtaking...
    Hamilton the fastest, I'm not sure about that.. how many fastest laps does he have from this season? How many pole positions? I love how your Hamilton can do no wrong. I used to be a big fan but in 2009, his faults became clear to me..

    Maybe the BBC commentators just like Sebastian because he actually has time for them (if you watch the f1 forum) and seems like a genuinely nice person.

    Nobody knows what would happen if they were all in the same car but that's not what F1 is about. You moan on here because Sebastian is winning, if Lewis hadn't made so many mistakes, the championship may have been more exciting this year.. Button won 3 times, Lewis twice. Obviously the car was capable of winning on 5 occasions and in Spain, Monaco. I'm ashamed to be British, you don't recognise talent from other nationalities. Vettel is a boy at the young age of 24, he still has a lot to learn but he is incredible at the moment and he is in the peak of his career. I wish him every success.

    I don't believe you can compare two drivers from different eras. They drive completely different equipment. The only thing Hamilton and Senna have in common is they both drove for McLaren!

    #Schumacher fan since 1991 ----

  • Comment number 80.

    Andrew Benson and anyone else that wants to answer this; who do you think are the top 5 driver in order currently in f1 and why?

    This should prove interesting if Andrew actually answers :p

  • Comment number 81.

    75. African_king:

    I wasn't talking about conspiracy or delusion in that regard. Yes, I agree with you, The Red Bull was the faster car this weekend, Hamilton did well to hold off Webber, Button himself was only circa. 2.5 seconds behind the two of them, with a fast finishing Alonso only a second behind him.

    I was referring to the selective reasoning that is rolled out by many Hamilton fans. JayF12012 gave another example of this with their reasoning, trying to belittle Hamilton's team mate instead of simply being pleased that Hamilton had broken his own run of poor form. They compounded this by ignoring the downforce & under steer problem that Button also suffered:

    http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2011/10/12666.html

    in yet another attempt to belittle one of Hamilton's rivals!

    I firmly believe that true Hamilton fans do not have to resort to this type of tactic. Hamilton's stock must surely be all the greater if the rivals he faces, Button, Alonso, Vettel, Webber et al. are considered worthy opponents & not belittled constantly, together with the constant calls of bias, conspiracies & racism.

    Let the man, very talented as he is, do his own talking through doing the business on the track . Sadly, too many of his 'fanboys' let him down with their attitudes.

  • Comment number 82.

    81.
    At 16:48 16th Oct 2011, Ragnarokkr

    AGREED and especially with this comment ;

    **I firmly believe that true Hamilton fans do not have to resort to this type of tactic. Hamilton's stock must surely be all the greater if the rivals he faces, Button, Alonso, Vettel, Webber et al. are considered worthy opponents & not belittled constantly, together with the constant calls of bias, conspiracies & racism.***


    But also would like to mention that i think most fans do his, not just Hamilton's fans. Alonso's, vettel's and button's fan all do this.., well most of them anyways.

    Anyways what is your take on Hamilton being branded a petulant child?

  • Comment number 83.

    Great defensive drive today by Lewis showing all the doubters that he can deliver on race day... Red Bull clearly quicker but managed to hang on to second Really shows that he rung the cars neck on sat for the pole just hope 2012 Mclaren can finally give him a car he deserves for a second title thats long over due As for next year i will not be paying for Sky so will only be watching half races live but if the other teams dont play catch up over the winter then it might be a blessing as will not have to see to much of Mr one finger RED BULL= DEAD DULL

  • Comment number 84.

    For all those saying Lewis is the best driver you are all deluded. Yes he won 1 championship 3 years ago, but how come he hasnt won anymore if he is the best? Why hasnt Mclaren provided him with the best best car?What you all seem to forget that when he won his championship it was on the last race and almost did not make it whilst he had the 'best' car that year.
    Vettel last year did not have a clear run to his maiden championship either, a poor race strategy my Webber & Alonso gave him his opportunity. My point is what he has taken from last season into this season is what makes his the best driver today. He is the only driver to have finished all races so far just missing out on the grid just once. This has littel to do with luck, rather a well calculated race strategy implemented by a deserving driver in Vettel.
    When Lewis had his maiden strategy in the 'best' car at the time did he win 10 races? No. SO how does his stats make him the fastes/best driver? Be a fan, but know the difference btw being one and deluded. Lewis has been in Mclaren all his racing life, he and the team know each other more than any other person in any team. He has this advantage and has only taken advantage once. This should tell you that he is not as great as you all may think. Whereas Vettel moved from TorroRosso, where he actually won a race from pole to finish (Monza) in a car that was not the fastest car and not part of the top 4 teams (Has Lewis done this, NO). HLewis has not had the opportunity to moving to another team (new engineers and management) where has has to develope new relationships and working styles. When he gets to do this, lets see how he will adjust, and see what his results will be on the race track. Alonso, Jenson, Shumacher, Webber have all had to do this except Lewis. Get real people, as hard as it may be to accept, the best driver today is Vettel (even the top gear team will tell you given his attention to detail before setting the fastest lap amonst F1 in the reasonable priced car, whilst bliztingthe stigs record). You may not like Vettel as a person, but respect his record to date. The other drivers on the grid do. You can only overtake whats in front of you. When you're in front most of the time you'll have less overtaking moves compared to those in the middle of the pack. Ask Schumacher, he has gained more positions from his starting place on the grid than anyone else, but he his still behind his teammate. This is a man regarded as one of the greatest racing drivers. Lewis is certainly n

  • Comment number 85.

    @79 Anyone who supports Schmacher a Dirty Arrogant driver who will do ANYTHING to win including raming his opponents off track clearly doesnt know what he is talking about .....I will say it again RED BULL= DEAD DULL

  • Comment number 86.

    >"holding off the faster car of the German's team-mate Mark Webber for the duration."


    Webber passed Hamilton at one point, only for Hamilton to promptly pass him right back. Webbers's car was not faster.

  • Comment number 87.

    #82. African_king

    Anyways what is your take on Hamilton being branded a petulant child?

    -----------

    It's a bit unfair, but it's probably about perceptions. Some are probably of the view that he should show more exuberance or happiness as a result of some improved form, after recent races, incidents & results. Particularly as it's a team sport & there are lots of people who work hard behind the scenes to give the drivers the tools to do that job.

    However, I'd like to believe that it is simply Hamilton showing some of the wisdom that comes with greater maturity & perspective. This season, particularly, he has had some trials & tribulations (which have afflicted many a driver) & has taken a step back & had a bit of an introspective on himself.

    It may come across a certain way, because he's not letting himself get too carried away.

    The ups & downs in F1 can be many.

  • Comment number 88.

    To African_king, post 80,

    I've been giving a lot of thought to that recently, with a view to writing something on it at the end of the season. I'll give my answer then.

  • Comment number 89.

    >"Andrew Benson and anyone else that wants to answer this; who do you think are the top 5 driver in order currently in f1 and why?"



    1) Vettel
    2) Button
    3) Alonso
    4) Webber
    5) Hamilton

    Results don't lie.

  • Comment number 90.

    "Andrew Benson and anyone else that wants to answer this; who do you think are the top 5 driver in order currently in f1 and why?"

    The drivers that finish 1-5 at the end of the championship season, in that order.

  • Comment number 91.

    what is this pathetic obsession the BBC (particularly Benson, and Holt & the rest of the BBC pundits) have with Lewis Hamilton. You always give the guy a hard time! Get off his case.

    He's an former F1 champion, a quick / talented and exciting driver to watch, and he's not had a car to win the title with in 3 seasons. Yet he puts on a good show and some good races.

    If I were him, I'd be "subdued" getting out of the car knowing that even though I've stuck the car on pole the UK press are gonna say something crap about me. I wouldnt want to talk to anyone at the BBC.

    Give it a rest and find something else to write about in your blog. Every race its Hamilton this, Hamilton that. How about a balanced review of the race. If Hamilton was driving a car as dominant as the red bulls which has taken every pole until yesterday, I think he would have had a fair few pole positions, especially as he is quicker in a single lap than Button. And he would have likely converted many of them to victories.

    He's the only guy that looks capable challenging Vettel but the Mclaren is just not good enough, as even Webber in the same car has been terribly outclassed and is 4th in the championship. But you cant slag off Webber because he writes a blog for the BBC!

    Mclaren might love Button but he wont win a championship again, not with Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton driving on the same tarmac.

  • Comment number 92.

    @85 I think as a 64 year old WOMAN, I know quite a lot.

  • Comment number 93.

    At 17:11 16th Oct 2011, bdyke04
    comment 84

    loooooool
    mate, the season Hamilton won his title, the Ferrari was EQUALLY as strong as the MClaren which is why they was a fight for the title till the last race

    This season the Redbull is much faster car, both in qualifying especially the 1st half of the season and in terms of race pace, they are always a class above the rest in most (not all) race tracks
    now i don't wanna take a way from Vettel achievement because it takes a lot for a driver to always drive the best and no make mistakes even if you got the best car on the grid especially looking at his age
    But he can't take all the applause either, as his team also MAKES SURE HE GETS THE BEST POSSIBLE STRATEGY and his pit stops are always faultless (not all mind you but the majority) where as most other teams this season especially Mclaren which were their main competitors, the team its self has made A LOT OF MISTAKES BOTH PITS STOPS AND STRATEGY and just haven't got the raw pace.
    And in my opinion (Just my opinion here) i think all this has concluded on a particular driver being frustrated and try too hard to make up errors made by the team and instead making it much much worse.

    Now on weither Hamilton is the best driver, this is people's opinion and as i am a Hamilton fan i happen to agree, not only because i am his fan :p but because of how he performed in the lower formulas before he came in F1
    I say this because Lower Formulas is the only place you can judge a racer fairly as all driver have the same cars.

    As for why he hasn't won a race since 2008, well if you can't work that one out then maybe you shouldn't bother commenting here in the 1st place

  • Comment number 94.

    >"My point is that if Hamilton can sort his head out and is given a competitive car, he will be unbeatable."


    He had a competitive car in taking the WDC in 2008, and he was not "unbeatable" then - he only won five races that year.

  • Comment number 95.

    @84 You are clearly biasd towards Mr one finger ...he has had a clear car advantage not seen since the early 00s ....with this conserving the tyres rubbish which isnt racing Red Bull has a clear advantage be easyer on the tyres thus being able to run quicker on heavy fuel also not having to worry about conserving fuel like the Mclarens have to ...you are only as good as the car u have underneath you so a second title for him was inevitable as for Lewis and his 08 title he did not have the best car it was a season long battle with ferrari get your facts right

  • Comment number 96.

    86.
    At 17:17 16th Oct 2011, Twirlip wrote:

    >"holding off the faster car of the German's team-mate Mark Webber for the duration."


    Webber passed Hamilton at one point, only for Hamilton to promptly pass him right back. Webbers's car was not faster.


    But from what i hear, we are led to believe that Both Webber and Vettel have the same car and it is was obvious to me that Vettell was had the fasted car in this race

  • Comment number 97.

    @79@1
    Completely agree!
    Unfortunately the Ham fans can get over the fact that Seb is winning and in style;
    He's very special, and he is as good as anyone at overtaking as he proved when he was driving slower cars and fast ones, he did not start in F1 in a top car like Mc Laren, and if we have to apply the same argument "IF", than Kubica would have won in a Mc Laren/RD and so Rosberg etc etc.
    The point here is that "IF" doesn't make history!
    "If" Hamilton was in a RB car would win very race or a WC , it's a non argument , just speculations to justify why their idol lost , and by the way,for the record, Alonso has never been beaten by any teammates, in 2007 he finished second with LH, OK? Let's get it right!

  • Comment number 98.

    Andrew Benson and anyone else that wants to answer this; who do you think are the top 5 driver in order currently in f1 and why?

    This should prove interesting if Andrew actually answers :p

    Revision of my question: IF IN EQUAL MACHINERY (not possible i know but still interesting to find out your opinions)

  • Comment number 99.

    AfricanKing

    to answer your post #80

    If you want it based on current season form

    1 Alonso
    2 Vettel
    3 Button
    4 Hamilton
    5 Webber
    6.Di Resta
    7. Schumacher
    8. Perez
    9. Kobayashi / Rosberg
    10. Algarsuari / Sutil


    if you want to think about out and out ability

    1 Alonso
    2 Vettel
    3 Hamilton
    4 Button
    5 Webber

    In case you're wondering I am not a fan of either Alonso or Vettel but I recognise
    a) Alonso is masking the Ferrari deficiencies
    b) Vettel is doing the job given the equipment he's got
    c) Hamilton has fallen back from last year
    d) Button is closer to the top 3
    e) Webber is regressed

    I'll be surprised if Andrew Benson comes up with a different top 5

  • Comment number 100.

    @African_King - I think the perception of Lewis as petulant came off the back of his reactions following qualifying rather than the race. The problem is that calling someone a "petulant child" is a fairly emotive term and fans blood tends to boil.

    I thought his reaction after qualifying was poor, and it wasn't the actions of someone who wants to be first in the race, he knew exactly what he was doing and exactly how it would be perceived. If I'd been working hard in Woking for a not particularly fancy salary (and I have many friends at McLaren so I do know regarding that) to put the car on pole I would have expected a far more generous reaction from a person seen as the figurehead and public face of the team who is paid significantly more than £10m a year.

    Lewis is many things, but stupid he's not, and he knew what he was doing there. Sadly I suspect many of his problems are mired in his confusion as to the difference between a celebrity and a racing driver. As I said in another forum on here, I think his choice of 19 Management, an entertainment company, to manage him was terribly misguided. Yes, let them look after your image rights, but he really should get, and does need, a straight-talking personal manager too.

    His reaction was disappointing after qualifying, and I'm sure people in the team felt a little hurt by it. Saying that, I'm sure that Martin Whitmarsh and others in the team will have had a word and we won't see it again.

    At the end of the day he's a young man living in a highly concentrated bubble. He's going to make mistakes in the car but equally will do out of the car as well. As with Jenson's earlier career, the dirty linen gets done in public, but I'm sure he'll learn important lessons as a result.

 

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