What is the true cost of McLaren's mistake?
A single point can be priceless in Formula 1.
Lewis Hamilton lost the championship by just one point in 2007 but captured the drivers' crown by the same margin the following season.
Now a single point - the difference between third and fourth place at last weekend's Australian Grand Prix - has cost Hamilton and his McLaren team dearly.
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First of all, it looks to have cost sporting director Dave Ryan his job. After 35 years with the team, he's been suspended.
It has put a severe dent in the world champion's reputation and has also called into question once more the integrity of McLaren.
Martin Whitmarsh has only been installed as team principal in succession to Ron Dennis for little over a month and already he is in the eye of a storm entirely of the team's own making.
Hamilton was disqualified from the Australian Grand Prix on Thursday after he and McLaren were found guilty of "deliberately misleading" the race stewards in the aftermath of the Melbourne race.
As a result of Hamilton's explanation, Toyota's Jarno Trulli was demoted from third to 12th for passing the McLaren under safety car conditions and Hamilton promoted to third from fourth.
But new evidence from the McLaren pit radio has revealed the team had instructed Hamilton to let Trulli re-pass him, contradicting what Hamilton and Dave Ryan had told the stewards during the original hearing in Australia.
The world champion and McLaren boss Whitmarsh have now apologised for the deception - but the damage has been done, with no prospect of repair.
Less than a month ago, Whitmarsh insisted; "In this team, we operate a responsibility culture, not a blame culture."
But there are plenty in the Malaysian paddock who believe Ryan has been made a scapegoat by McLaren and that he's been made culpable for an error of judgement - to put it mildly - that should never have happened.
Ryan's suspension does not reflect well on the hierarchy within McLaren.
According to Whitmarsh, it was Ryan's decision alone to go into the stewards with the story they chose to tell.
Where was the collective responsibility from a team - which prides itself on its ability to win together and lose together - to establish what had happened and what should be said to the stewards?
Whitmarsh may well have been experiencing his first race in overall control but Dennis was right next to him on the pit-wall.
Would Ron Dennis, whose attention to detail is renowned, or his successor have expected his sporting director to take such an important decision without referring upwards?
Whitmarsh claimed that Ryan had been upset by the stewards' decision at last year's Belgium Grand Prix, when race director Charlie Whiting had given Hamilton's move on Kimi Raikkonen the green light only for the stewards to take a different view.
Ryan was concerned, he said, that there was no repeat in Melbourne and that the team played by the rules.
Instead old wounds have been reopened in the face of authority.
McLaren came through a desperate year in 2007 when they were immersed in the spy row, which saw them found guilty of possessing Ferrari technical information.
As the row dragged on, so McLaren's integrity - such a touchstone of the Dennis regime - was eroded.
Winning the 2008 championship appeared to restore the team's good name. Now it has been sullied once again.
Hamilton's reputation has also been damaged.
The public may well perceive him to be a liar, even though he has apologised for his behaviour.
The fact is, he has still been seen to mislead the stewards deliberately and many people may now turn against him.
The relationship between the Hamiltons (Lewis and his father Anthony) and McLaren has also been strained.
Hamilton was told by the team to tell the race stewards a particular line and if those were team orders he had to obey them.
All drivers need to look after number one but Hamilton's long-term future with the team may have been compromised - that will all depend on how McLaren recover from this latest scandal and how much they can improve the car this season.
A key fact to this tale is that Hamilton did nothing wrong on the track in Australia.
When Trulli went off at the penultimate corner in Melbourne, Hamilton had to move forward and take his place because he didn't know Trulli was going to return to the track or if the Toyota was suffering from a mechanical problem.
Hamilton had to keep going behind the safety car; he was under no obligation to let Trulli re-pass him.
As I understand it, if Hamilton had finished the race in third and been honest about the circumstances and the discussions on the team radio then the chances are that the stewards would have reinstated Trulli in third ahead of the Englishman and that would have been the end of the matter.
That in itself would have been a great tonic for the team. He started from the back of the grid to finish fourth place in a car, which the team have openly admitted is nowhere near good enough.
As it is, this story is unravelling and may continue to do so.
Whether the apologies from Hamilton and McLaren draw a line under the affair remains to be seen.
The sport's governing body, the FIA, could yet decide that the team have a case to answer in front of the World Motor Sport Council.
On a final light note, here are my top-eight predictions for Sunday's race.
1. Jenson Button (Brawn GP)
2. Kimi Raikkonen (Ferrari)
3. Felipe Massa (Ferrari)
4. Rubens Barrichello (Brawn GP)
5. Mark Webber (Red Bull)
6. Sebastian Vettel (Red Bull)
7. Robert Kubica (BMW Sauber)
8. Nico Rosberg (Williams)
Brawn are still the team to beat in Malaysia but the Ferraris do well here, especially Kimi Raikkonen.
Mark Webber has to have a change of luck sooner rather than later and, even with his grid penalty, I expect Vettel to be on fire, so I'm tipping the Red Bulls to do well.
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~19~RS~)
Jonathan Legard commentated on Formula 1 for the BBC in 2009 and 2010. He wrote regular blogs during that period, giving a behind-the-scenes insight into the grand prix weekends. Jonathan, previously 5 live's football correspondent and before that the radio station's F1 correspondent, is no longer part of the BBC's F1 team.
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Well summarised. But all this begs one simple question - how could Hamilton have been so stupid? He knew - though Ryan probably didn't - that he (Hamilton) had alrady done an interview saying the team HAD told him to let Trulli past, did he think the stewards wouldn't find out?! He is a good driver, but appears at times to lack even the most basic common sense.
He isn't a novice apprentice in fear of losing his drive any more. He was perfectly capable of telling Ryan not to be so silly and that he wasn't prepared to lie to the stewards - not for a single point anyway! He chose to join in with the lie and has only himself to blame, and it will cost him millions in lost sponsorship, advertising etc, let alone any further penalties handed out. No wonder he lets his dad do most of the talking.....
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Good analysis Jonathan. McLaren seem to have shot themselves in the foot and I only feel this would not have happened under Ron Dennis.
I do see Kubica being higher on Sunday than seventh. I'd put him as a challenger for the win. Hope Jenson wins again though!
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this is sooo messy Jonathan
I have to prettymuch agree with all you have said...I aint a fan of Lewis, but I do feel a little sorry for him in all this and just hope the rpeess subsides now so we can all just enjoy racing again...
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A good analysis and I agree with all your points Johnathan
You would of thought with all the issues that mclaren have had with the fia recently they would play this one with a straight bat to try and minimise any damage, but no they had to try and cover it up and in any walk of life the cover ups will always come to the surface!
Hamiltons got no excuse, he's no longer the rookie, he's the world champion. He must of known that this will come back to bite him on the bum sooner or later.I'm glad it was resolved in hte week and this not being bought up in a few weeks
The ferraris look much better and they will be up there on sat/sun but still hope Jenson will win it
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hello jonathan,
with regards to your predictions (as i've read quite enough about Mclaren's fiasco), are you not giving Alonso even a small sniff of some points? If he makes it into the top 10, with KERS beneficial at the start? As a fan, that's what I'm hoping for. It's a shame you disagree!
I look forward to hearing you and Martin commentate on Sunday
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"if Hamilton had finished the race in third and been honest about the circumstances and the discussions on the team radio then the chances are that the stewards would have reinstated Trulli in third ahead of the Englishman and that would have been the end of the matter."
Surely Hamilton had no obligation to let Trulli through and had he finished third have kept the place? Trulli's going off was entirely his own fault and he should have just stayed where he remained after rejoining. The only reason he did overtake Hamilton was because he had slowed down and he had no choice. Or have I misunderstood the rules?
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The analysis is precise.
With the benefit of the radio transcript, I feel MacLaren and Lewis had nothing to hide, therefore not stating the facts was careless and the consequences a bit harsh in my opinion, unless there is another case which is not yet in the public domain. I will also query the reliability and intergrity of the Sterwards in this scenario, with the amount of money and public interest in F1, it is shocking that they made the initial decision without the full facts. This is the real cause of the current farce and I feel the Maclaren Team is now a scapegoat for their inconsistent delibrations.
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True that, Johnathan.
I think that you just need to look at both the interview Ted Kravitz did with Martin Whitmarsh and the press conference that Lewis Hamilton gave this morning, to see that Mclaren are being economical with the truth here. I can't help but feel that Dave Ryan is a complete scape-goat. Hamilton, who's clearly actually fundamentally a pretty honest guy despite the Schumacher-esque desire for success at all costs, could hardly look the press in the eye, and Martin Whitmarsh's responses to Ted Kravitz's questions could hardly have been less Ron-speak if he'd tried. In every single way he avoided the reality of the situation with some very well worded, yet completely non-committal, answers; answers bearing the semblance of worth and truth...but clearly no substance.
As for the race predictions. Expect Kimbo to be on fire, his fastest lap was almost half a second a lap faster than that of Massa on the hard compound in Australia... Button seems to have had a lucky break this season with his team-mate's poor-luck...reminds me of the dreadfully unliucky start to 2005 that Fisi had (excluding Melbourne of course).
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I'm sure that such basic mistakes were never made by Ferrari or Benetton when a certain Mr Schumacher was driving for them . . . or if they were, the FIA failed to notice.
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I don't see why this was such a big deal, surely the TV footage was enough to see what happened and the stewards should have made their decision based on this. If they were unable to reach a conclusion, they should have left it as it was. How many times do we see decisions made in other sports which seem questionable afterwards but there is never an investigation or the result reversed (Maradona's 'hand of god' goal is an example).
Anyway, we will have forgotten about this in a day or two and if Lewis gets close to the title I'm sure we'll all be supporting him and yelling at our TVs like we did during the Brazil race last year.
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Here we go again, the F1 joke. Lets stop the politics of whoose done what to who, set the rules and let them fight it out on the track not in the stewards room or the FIA hedquaters. Now my comment, we all know who owns and runs F1 and they are pro ferrari, so why not have 20 Ferrai`s on the track no one would be disqaulifed because it is immpossible for a Ferrari not to win. but wait a minute someone still needs to be disquailfed i know its got to be the saftey car as thats a merc. So lets turn the clocks back bring back the 3 litre cars with all the mod cons and get back to some proper racing the fans are getting fed up with is ongoing joke. And i would like to add welcome home F1 to the BBC yes no more advert breaks.
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How ridiculous this whole situation is. To disqualify Hamilton for what he did still seems a silly situation. Yes maybe they were economical with the truth, but it's the stewards job to use the evidence available to them (the team radio records and the video footage) before making a decision. It is the FIA and the stewards that need to be under review, as it just makes formula 1 a joke when the results are constantly changed after the race. Who knows, in a few weeks time Alonso could end up winning in Melbourne if Brawn, Toyota and Williams are disqualified.
In football, you never see officials looking back at an incident and saying "Well that was a dive from Mr Gerrard, so we'll chalk off that goal from the penalty spot and call it 1-1" days after the game. What is the point in watching a Formula 1 race if what you see on your tv screen is not going to be the final standings. I won't bother watching the Malaysian Grand Prix this weekend, I'll just check out the result next week in the papers. A real shame, as I think the BBC's coverage showed much promise and left everyone with a real buzz last weekend before the stewards got involved and begun this farce. I mean it's simple, there was no need to penalise Hamilton or Trulli, just decide where each should be placed in 3rd and 4th.
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I think there should be a deadline set for all final decisions on the race to have been made by about 5 hours after the race. With the drivers still there it will be minimum fuss and whatever decision is made after then should stand. If there is any doubt then, with the evidence they have, they should make a decision based on it or leave the result as it was at the end of the race. I think the stewards were at fault for making a decision whithout all the evidence they required and then going back and saying it was incorrect.
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James2904b is spot on. F1 is going to lose spectators over the constant changing of results.
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'We will have forgotten about this in a day or two and ...be supporting him and yelling at our TVs like we did during the Brazil race last year.'
With respect,I doubt it. Schumaker never overcame the scars on his reputation - deliberate crashes, the 'broken' car at Monaco. As a piece of marketing merchandise (which in this 'sport' he is whenever not actually in the car) he is seriously damaged and that matters, not just financially but in what drives he is offered in the future. If Button continues to do well 2008 may yet prove to be the highlight of Hamilton's career both on the track and off it.
I also wonder if he has had the good grace to go and apologise to Trulli and Toyota - I doubt it..
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I also wonder if he has had the good grace to go and apologise to Trulli and Toyota - I doubt it..
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I take it you haven't even bothered watching his interview before posting ridiculous innaccurate comments then?
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telnolies and KimiRa1kkonen have read my mind and actually noted what I wanted to say, so I will move onto the predictions. How about a points finish for my man Jarno? He came from a pit lane start to finish 3rd/4th (depending what side of the fence you are on..). So he could be in for a high points finish from a proper grid spot.
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telnolies: why exactly does hamilton need to apologise to trulli?
also, what i don't get is why trulli was reinstated? nothing about what trulli did (or didn't do) changed from his dq to his reinstatement, so surely he should have remianed dq?
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Excellent analysis.
I cannot understand why Hamilton or McLaren had to be economical with the truth. Besides damaging their reputations, probably beyond repair, it makes one think -- this is probably the season where they are going to scrap for points and any point is useful, atleast till the season is halfway through, when they might begin to recover. Did this drive them to act in the way they did? The 'lets get any point we can in any way we can' mentality -- has that set in??
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Tomorrow is the Grand national at Aintree. Just imagine a stewards enquiry at the conclusion of the race, which five days later is overturned after the bookmakers have paid out. The stewards are a farce.
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Ted Kravitz: Lewis wouldn't tell an untruth just because Dave Ryan had done it, simply he has a mind of his own?
Martin Whitmarsh: Well I think...in those situations, people try and, you know, they give what they believe to be truths, technically truths, but I think the impression that you can give by nonetheless answering technically correct is not full and honest, and I think Lewis got drawn that path, and that's why, I think...he, I, the team, Davey have massive regret for what happened in that stewards' inquiry in Australia.
Now that's what you call an honest and direct answer! So when Lewis answered explicitly that he had not been instructed to or consciously let Truli past, his answer was "technically correct" and "truthful" but he gave the wrong impression. Bears such a striking resemblance to Ron's "to the best of our knowledge" spygate explanations. Unmistakenly McLaren!
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camp6ell - he should apologise to Trulli because as a result of the untrue story told Trulli was quite unfairly demoted from 3rd to 12th, not to mention having his own version of the incident in effect disbelieved - ie. that Hamilton had slowed to let him pass.
If that doesn't warrant an apology I'm not sure what does.
This incident does raise one other question. The stewards did not apparently have the option of demoting Trulli to 4th. Why on earth not! This is part of the problem with F1 - had they had sensible options available to simply correct an injustice, Trulli's penalty would at least have fitted the 'crime' he was supposed to have committed, and likewise Hamilton's in the Kimi affair last year. The whole process of race stewardship needs reinventing.
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We should remember that race results are ALWAYS provisional; cars and drivers both can be, and have been, disqualified or penalised after the race is run (and sometimes even reinstated subsequently as well – Malaysia 1999 is a good case in point). Of course, it is better if all this can be decided quickly, preferably on race day itself but how can stewards complete a fair enquiry if competitors try it on being “economical” with the truth? This seems to have been Hamilton and Ryan’s attitude, believing that by being a bit clever with the stewards they could get the result they wanted.
Really, Hamilton has been suckered twice here: once when, following team orders, he unnecessarily pulled over to let Trulli past and secondly, again following team orders we are told, when he gave a misleading account to the stewards. Let’s hope he has learnt his lesson; he’s far too good a driver to need to resort to this kind of tactic.
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I am a huge f1 fan, but it seems to me that the fia has shot itself yet again in the foot. Are the stewards really admitting that they had no idea what was going on in the McLaren camp and hadn't listened to the dialogue between the driver and the team? Everyone in the world knows that if this had been a Ferrari incident, particularly with Schumacher at the helm, the whole thing would have been brushed over. Is there an anti-McLaren motive here? What are these people trying to do? I fear the organisers are damaging the sport immensely, and will do further damage if they alter the results from Melbourne in a couple of weeks.
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to camp6ell In my eyes Trulli was disqulified because the stewards believed that he retook his place back from Hamilton under yellow flags. What it seems is at the time they did not take into account that Hamilton had slowed and pulled over to let Trulli through. This is because Ryan AND Hamilton lied about such a team order being given. Trulli had no choice but to re take his place. He had no idea of what was going on at Mclaren, and I gather in his eyes it must have looked like Hamilton had a problem and was pulling off the track.
Trulli did not do anything wrong and therefore deserved his place back.
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First thing last weekend the BMW - which was quicker than Vettel at that time- mis-judged the pass causing a racing accident - so the stewards penalise Vettel for being a "racer" then the Hamilton affair now being blown out of proportion plus other incidences such as Spa last year - well, for me , forget F1 - it's too money,PC, and offials orientated. Do we know which members of the FIA made these decisions?What experience of racing do they have to their names? Where is the spirit of the sport? I have been a motor sport nut since 16 ( and that was 50+ years ago) - done my stint at marshalling, including GPs , but , now, cheerio F1.
As an aside - the BTCC races - dodgem car tactics and that's considered "a good hard manoeuvre" . For me - cheerio F1 BTCC et al.
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lionihatethisgame " i take it you haven't even bothered watching his interview before posting ridiculous innaccurate comments then?"
Then you take it wrong, but so nice to see somebody who speaks his mind, even if it doesn't necessarily take that long to do. Yes I did read it, it says as follows:
'I haven't had the chance to speak to Jarno. I did actually see him before we went into the meeting and I said sorry for the situation at that time.'
So no, he hadn't gone down and apologised. Hope that clears it up for you.
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What I and I'm sure many fans fail to understand is why on earth the rules say that the stewards have to take the testimony of biased parties (ie the teams and drivers) into account when they have all the evidence in front of them in the form of tv, onboard shots and telemetry. It makes no sense and doesn't happen in any other sport - some good examples and comparisons have been made already.
It is the system and the abysmal stewarding (yet again) that has ruined the race for the majority of spectators. In their hurry to reach a conclusion (probably in the knowledge that a delayed decision would look bad) they relied on evidence given by people who had a vested interest in the decision.
Why didn't they have access to all the radio transmissions? Did Mclaren withhold them? If they came to a decision knowing that information was not complete or withheld it was pure incompetence. Mclaren and LH were given enough rope to hang themselves, and they got caught doing it. How many others have done this before and got away with it under this ludicrous system? CHANGE THE RULES AND SACK THE INCOMPETENT STEWARDS!!
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I stopped watching F1 last season after the stewards ridiculous and unreasonable punishment to Hamilton at the Belgian GP, as it was definitely reaching such a pro-Ferrari must win the championship, most likely orchestrated by MM who has said they are more important than anyone else in F1.
Now again the stewards have again put themselves up as a laughing stock for not investigating the incident properly in the first place. Race decisions should be made on the day with an agreed time limit, ie 4hours after the finish.
I have been a McLaren fan for a long time, and feel slightly let down by whats gone on within the team over the past couple of years, but from the outside it would appear that the overloards of F1 have a definite down on the team.
Had Lewis behaved like Barrichello did at the start, he would have been fined and given penalties for attrocious driving, please lets have a level playing field for everyone. Thank goodness MotoGP starts next week, now there is trues and honest racing!
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Being called by the stewards is a bit like Dave Ryan and Lewis Hamilton outside the Headmasters office. At the time they hadn't done anything wrong. Lewis knew the power of the headmaster and was presented with an alternative version of events from his mate (Dave). It the heat of the moment it all sounded feasible. Add to that, he was gutted that Trulli got "his place" from the judgement of the team during the race. They felt robbed, they knew that their reputation of being the bad kids was hanging over them again. But in the back of their minds they had done nothing wrong. Thinking, "What injustice, bloody Trulli, it's his fault. And the FIA, if they weren't so hot on us we would just have carried on racing rather than looking for the rule book" In their minds they justify what they are about to say by concentrating on the second instruction, not to let him past. The lie was born.......
It's a bloody shame really because if you listern to the radio conversation they where trying to do the right thing. Lewis done evereything the team told him to do, shame they changed their minds after Trulli was let back through.
Lewis's ambition and desire to race and win are his biggest strenghts. These come with some "acceptable" weaknesses. Dishonesty and lacking intregity are not acceptable though. Sticking with your team though right and wrong, making the most of an opportunity are weaknesses that we can tolerate and relate to.
You just have to decide which weaknesses were demostrated. I go for the later. "The dog ate my homework" only gets used once. We have all done it and have realised how stupid it was the day after. He'll learn, and he'll need the support of the fans to carry on being as good as he was born to be. Don't burn your Hamilton cap just yet (or Tippex in Jenson)
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Brillant analysis Jonathan.
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I have to say that I am cynical enough to believe that most teams would try, or have tried (and got away with) the same sort of thing in the past.
Surely it is the rules at fault for allowing biased parties evidence to be used in the decision making process when all the data is available in the form of telemetry, cameras etc.
I didn't much like Ronspeak and I must say I now will not believe a word Whitmarsh ever says again. His blatant lying this morning in his interview with Ted Kravitz was just dreadful, making a situation that was already bad look even worse - how stupid does he think we are?
The teams and the drivers should be taken out of the equasion during these post race inquiries, and a short time limit of a few hours after the race being the last time the result can change.
People pay alot of money at the tracks and in TV license fees and advertising to watch a sport where the results on the day count.
F1 has gotten so full of its own self importance that it thinks it is the high court and we would rather have results decided by days of deliberation than get the odd injustice like you do in any other sport.
Do Max and Bernie seriously think that the current system is in any way appealing to the audience that pay for their lifestyle? If they do they really are senile.
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YOUR VIEWS ON THIS POST PLEASE.
As we have started the silly season with stewards keep changing descions lets re write the history books and have this result over turned.
Damon Hill lost the world championship by one point.
WRONG and here is the reason.
At brazil Interlagos Aryton Senna was on pole Micheal Schaumacher was second on the perade lap turn one Micheal over took Senna result should have been deduction of 10 points for unlawful overtaking thus handing the championship to Damon Hill by 9 pionts but hey that one went un noticed
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'I haven't had the chance to speak to Jarno. I did actually see him before we went into the meeting and I said sorry for the situation at that time.'
So no, he hadn't gone down and apologised. Hope that clears it up for you.
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Yes I know, I am fully capable of listening through my own ears. Does that not suggest to you that soon he is going to apoligise then? If it doesn't then I'm not sure what does.
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Surely the best thing to do would have been to put Trullia back into third and Hamilton back into fourth:I don't think he should have been promoted to third in the first place.
Why is it that the stewards penalise Hamilton for everything? If he hadn't have gave the place back, they'd have penalised him, and when he does, they still penalise him. I know I might sound biased but surely it defeats the point of racing if the result is ultimately decided by the stewards?
If Massa or Raikkonen had done the same all they'd have got was a slap on the wrist, not a hammer blow to the face!
FIA(Ferrari Internationale de l'Automobile)-or is that just me being cynical?
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I agree with you that this mistake will cost Hamilton dearly, and this new episod makes me wonder about his winnibg of last years champion ship. As Glock had nothing to loose, after passing him easliy on one corner and then at the last corner he let him pass to win the championship by one point, doesn't this makes you wonder?
Good luck Button.
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NikosBg - thanks for highlighting my Martin Whitmarsh point. It was the most bizarre set of convoluted answers. You've got to feel sorry for the guy though being put on the spot like that by Ted Kravitz. Who knows - perhaps he had nothing to do with it.
Anyhoo. The whole thing is a shame because it detracts from what is important and that's the racing. At the end of the day all the stewards needed to do was re-allocate 3rd to Trulli based on the evidence they had instead of calling their credibility into question again whether Hamilton and Mclaren lied or not. They're incredibly competative people in an incredibly competative sport. The stewards would have known that a ruling like this would have got front-page, negative for the sport, media attention and yet they still did it. It's a complete joke. I don't support or even particularly like Hamilton, but he shouldn't have had to sit through that press conference this morning. What he did is hardly a big deal, shouldn't have affected the stewards' decision, and 10 years ago wouldn't even have registered in the paddock. The politics of F1 has become ridiculous. It's detracting from the racing, it's bringing negative media attention to the sport, and it's turning lovers of the sport off. In the same way that the fans liked the FOTA points system proposal and not the medal system, the fans would like to see racing and not silly off-track squabbles. Any fan can tell you that the stewards are getting more and more silly, and yet like we still end up with an attempted medal system, we get a controversial stewarding decision in the first race of the season. Way to go Bernie, FIA, and the stewards.
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Will it be a season of good racing, or is this the start of the silly season? We had this last year, with McLaren being hauled over the coals for the Ferrari ' spygate' affair. Now we have this. As I understand, no passing is allowed once the safety car has been deployed on the track. If the radio transcripts show that Lewis Hamilton was following orders, then this places the spotlight firmly on them and no one else. I think because its clear that McLaren have not got the car ready, then any means of points pinching comes into play. This surely cannot be good for the sport, and it must put spectators off, surely. This mistake by McLaren is going to hang over them all season, which will not help them in the long run, as its clear in Hamilton's demeanor, that this was an incredibly stupid thing to do, and it should not happen again. Nobody high up in the team will face the flack as much as Lewis, as he has the most to lose in this sorry affair.
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Clearly this whole thing is a fiasco for McLaren and Hamilton - but the saddest aspect for me is how their frankly incredulous behaviour has provided such a convenient smokescreen for and diversion from the total incompetence and lack of accountability of the Stewards.
Where was "Charlie" (never was a man more aptly named) when he was needed to provide clear direction on whether Hamilton needed to let Trulli past? Based on the radio transmissions, it sounds a clear 3 minutes passed by without any response from the Stewards.
Also, regarding Jonathan's commment
"As I understand it, if Hamilton had finished the race in third and been honest about the circumstances and the discussions on the team radio then the chances are that the stewards would have reinstated Trulli in third ahead of the Englishman and that would have been the end of the matter."
...is this some inside track on what the Stewards were thinking? And if so, could Jonathan (or anyone else) explain exactly on what basis the Stewards would be authorised to start altering the race classification in this way?
From what I can see in the F1 regulations and code, there are clear penalties set out for breach of regulations, such as overtaking under Safety Car, and there are discretionary powers to the Stewards as whether they apply those penalties; but nowhere do the regulations give the Stewards carte blanche to start tweaking with the race classification in order to give a final result that makes them, in their infinite wisdom, feel warm and fuzzy.
Either Hamilton should have been penalised 25 seconds or not, the same for Trulli; both drivers passed under Safety Car in breach of the regulations, although in both cases it could be argued that their actions were "fair" or at least defensible.
If the Stewards decided Hamilton's overtaking was worthy of a penalty then he should have been penalised 25 seconds and demoted in the classifiction accordingly. Otherwise he should have been left unpenalised (forgetting for a moment all the nonsense that went on subsequently).
Similarly and independently, the Stewards needed to make a similar judgement about Trulli's overtaking move, per se also a breach of the regulations. Either it was worthy of a 25 second penalty or it wasn't and his final placing should have been decided accordingly.
But, based on a proper application of the regulations, there isn't any justification for the kind of placing reversal that Jonathan's "understanding" seems to imply was the intention of the Stewards.
Once the hubbub about Hamilton and McLaren has died down, someone like Jonathan needs to ask the right questions about the role and performance of the Stewards. We've all grown tired of the impact of incompetent officiating on football. F1 needs to sort itself out before the officials there too become the centre of attention ahead of the sport and sportsmen that are what F1 is actually all about.
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Interesting stuff from you Jonathan. you have certainly generated some interesting comments.
Basically McLaren have really lost faith in the FIA and stewards (understandably over the last few years). What they did was indefensible, however, so they should have just told them exactly how it was. However, I feel the system could have stopped this even ever being an issue. In NASCAR race control advises drivers what position they should hold under yellow. If Race Control really did control the race and make decisions at the time and then stand by them (ref Spa) rather than changing its mind when it has hours and hours to deliberate when they expect teams to make decisions on the fly. If Charlie, or whoever, could have either just advised Lewis and Jarno what positions to hold or least have advised the teams then none of this would have become an issue at all.
Generally I agree with previous comments where the Stewards need to be reviewed and limiting their time for making changes sounds like the best idea. Then the results that people get in their Monday morning papers must stand and F1 doesn't look ridiculous.
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Sadly I feel Martin Whitmash needs to consider his position in light of his handling of this matter. His media performances have been less than impressive and it has now been revealed his answers were deliberately evasive - or at best - ill informed. It seems incredible that a team principal on the wall, with access to radio traffic in the closing stages of a race and following a controversial SC incident is not going to to take a keen interest in what is going to said to the stewards? You'd also imagine that such a principle would also be very keen on a full debrief immediately after a stewards meeting to know what was said or not said? I think I would.
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I must admit I am not a great fan of Hamilton, and definately this new episod is not going to help his image in the F1 circle. It also strengthen my doubt about his winning of the champion ship last year, after Glock allowed him to pass in the last corner of the race giving him the one point he needed.
Good Luck
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I feel really sorry for Lewis with all this. What do you if our boss tells you what to say, when he's stood next to you? You say it..... let alone as a 24 year old, albeit world champion, when the guy telling you what to say is your director with 35 years experience.
Obviously the ramifications are far wider reaching for Lewis than most of us day to day.....
Its such as shame especially as he had such an awesome drive - and you can hear from the in car audio that all he wanted to do was the right thing - be it 3rd or 4th - but which ever was correct by the rules and due to him.
He also told the press the truth immediately after the race - and you can see how pleased he was to have a good haul of points against all the odds.
IMO Dave Ryan tried to make up for mis-advising Lewis in the race, and went about it in the wrong way. Two wrong calls don't make a right one.....
I'm hoping Lewis can rise above all the controversy, again, and do the talking with his driving as he has so many times before. Lets have it Lewis!!!!!!
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It's days like this that make you feel happy and proud not to be British.
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I'm afraid this all comes down to 2 things – 1, intelligence and 2, leadership. These are both qualities Lewis Hamilton does not have. Would Schumacher or Alonso stay out on wet tyres worn down to the canvas if the team told them to? Or would they arrive in the pits whatever the team said? I am of course referring to China 2007. I see this to be the difference between the greats and the 'mentioned in the same breathe' Hamilton. It seems to me that every time a key decision has to made on the track, which requires logical thinking - Hamilton, is incapable of making it. Think back to qualifying at Monza last year. Who chose to be completely on the wrong tyres and ended up massively underperforming, after destroying everyone in the wet at Silverstone earlier in the year. I just feel that the greats in the sport lead the team rather than the other way round and Hamilton is certainly not leading Mclaren. In my opinion - Schumacher, Prost, Senna, Moss, Mansell, etc - different league.
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McLaren seems to be a team self-destructing under pressure. Putting yourself under pressure to perform is one thing, ramping it up so much that you do ridiculous things is another. We're only at the beginning of the season, for God's sake. It's all pretty strange.
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Davy obviously gave Hamilton the wrong advise over the radio in hindsight but how much information did he have at the time? Not the TV footage that we have all seen since. You seem to suggest that Trulli would have got his 3rd place back from the stewards but how much of a excursion off the track would he have to make before he didn't?
Hamilton had just finished the race, so was probably not in a condition to think clearly. Let alone tell his boss to get lost.
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Why can't the stewards make decisions quickly during the race. There would be little need to change the result afterwards.
If they had given McLaren instructions (as McLaren were asking) then no mistakes would have been made. Similar thing happened in Spa last year, although then McLaren were told all was well, only to be penalised afterwards anyway.
The FIA and stewards seem to like being able to get the result they want. F1 is a joke. I have enjoyed it since cheering on the Lotus 79's in 1978. Now I am close to stop watching it all together.
Everyone (drivers, teams, fans) is being treated like a fool.
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I have to agree with pbboprd....I still admire LH for what he has achieved but he is time served now and a valid World Champion buts its time for him to mature. Hiding behind team orders wears pretty thin with me and if not careful he will lose credibility with the F1 fraternity and more importantly his endearing fans.
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Why didn't Hamilton apologise to Trulli in his statement and what about Toyota's race performance last weekend? Trulli and Glock started from the pitlane in Australia and finished 3rd and 4th! You can't rule out a strong result for them in Malaysia.
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Is it a coincidence that McLaren and Lewis have been repeatedly destroyed by the stewards ever since Ron Denis was so outspoken last year about Max Moseley needing to resign after his sex scandal?
I think Ron Denis stepped down as frontman purely in the hope that the McLaren bashing would stop and that it was a personal thing against him.
Seems it hasnt worked.
Might as well get your old job back Ron.
I still believe LH can win, despite the excessive rulings against him at every possible turn.
Reminds me (although I am not quite that old) of Jesse Owens owning the berlin olympics. You just have to start your long jump a metre back from the take off board. You can still jump that much farther than the rest.
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Amazingly, many posters are still confused about what took place.
Lewis did nothing against the rules when he took 3rd off trulli, trulli was off the track.
arguably trulli did nothing wrong when he retook 3rd off lewis. trulli slowed to allow lewis past for a second time but lewis didnt take it.
if lewis had not said what he said to the stewards, and instead just said exactly what happened, lewis would have been given 3rd and trulli 4th.
that would have been the end of it.
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Just one thing that many english people seem to forget. In 2007 Alonso also lost the championship by one point, a point that was stolen to him in Nurburgin.
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I agree with Osborpa's summary... and bigloggers steward comments. Good analysis Jonathan and I hope you (the BBC) go on to ask those tough questions of the FIA and the stewards... why was no-one able to answer Mclaren during the race? Why did they act against Trulli without ALL the facts? Simple incompetence that is making F1 a laughing stock. As for leadership at Mclaren... please let's get back to the traditional virtues of simple honesty and hard racing..
ps: who do I contact for my grandstand ticket refund when Alonso is finally awarded victory in melbourne ?
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I can't help but feel this is all far too harsh on Lewis, (not the analysis, the current feeling about him). This afternoon I heard texts from members of the public being read on BBC News and was disgusted by the way these sitting room critics described Hamilton as 'a disgrace to the flag and the country' or 'a liar and a cheat'. How quickly these people choose to turn on a brit who has done so much in his young life! He's the World Champion, and although he may often be a little aggravating with his 'cool' persona, he is still a credit to his family and indeed the country!
This, added to the fact that apparently a lot of the other drives dislike Hamilton cause of his 'aggressive racing style', must make for a lot to take for the young man. Surely his racing style is pure and entertaining, and he should be applauded not only when he wins the championship.
I hope he takes this latest slight on his character in his stride and doesn't let it get to him.....cause after all, he is an excellent racer, and he's British!
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After a good race to start the season with its a shame such farce has once again reared its head off the track even if you think the ruling is fair enough which could be right as "mis-leading stewards to gain an advantage" is not good although it seems like a great big mis-understanding and then confusion really between the stewards in that they failed to deal with the situation fully first time around so handed out an orginal punishment which wasn't warrented and I feel they should have jsut put Hamilton back into 4th with Turlli 3rd.
Not putting the sport in a positive light again.......having results changed and decided a few days later or even worse in courtrooms just becasue a few teams don't like the design of a car by their rivals.
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Nibs,
What a load of rot!
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lewis has got to start showing a tad more maturity....he wasnt exactly a saint during his first year but such is the life of F1...nevertheless thigs like these push fans away (at least i'm disgusted)....and for one point...mmmm...shame on mcclearn but come on lewis you are the one we watch...still in the lewis hammy corner..he'll learn from this
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The sad thing about this is, despite the stupid thing they did afterwards, listening to the radio Lewis & the team were clearly trying to follow the rules and stick to the letter of the law. A question has to be asked about why they weren't given any guidance at all from Race Control for all that time.
I'm not a big Lewis fan, but this sort of thing is just making me want to give up on F1. The pathetic steward's decisions, the constant changing of results days after races. You might have diving or refereeing mistakes in football, but at least you know if it ends 1-0 it stays 1-0.
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I have to throw in my two pence... The FIA has got to take some responsibilty here. Race control should make these things implicitly clear, should Lewis be ahead, or Jarno? They can talk to both teams and ask teams to ask both drivers... did they do this? They had over 4 minutes to sort this situation, which to me seems more than reasonable, and if it wasnt enough time, the should remove the 25 second penalty for mistakes if the result is found to be wrong as they couldnt advise properly. Penalties that can be reduced to an "either or" situation should be decided as such. The race was under safety car conditions and was effectively over and the dispute is only over 3rd and 4th.
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There seems to be 2 angles to this.
First McLaren seem consistently to have major problems internally resulting in a whole string of errors including this but also things like LH race at Shanghai 07 with shot tyres that the whole world could see, last year at Sepang where both he and his team mate strayed onto the line in qualifying, Montreal when a member of the team should be monitoring pitlane exit lights etc. They just don't seem to work well together as a functional team, just individuals. Don't get me wrong, I'm neutral when it comes to support, I just can't see say Renault or the Brawn Teams making such silly consistent errors. (Note - I can see Ferrari going downhill post-Brawn, Todt etc)
Second. I think the Stewards have become too "empowered". To me the rules should be simple:-
1. A FINAL decision is made within 4 hrs of the race finish. No appeals.
2. All info should be gathered no matter what the incident to include
- radio transcripts of all teams
- telemetry
- TV coverage incl in car stuff which has not been broadcast live
- written submissions from the relevant teams including those adjacent to the incident
- written submission from Race Control
- FULL availability throughout the process of all relevant team members for verbal Q&A.
3. Only after all this has been considered should any decision be made and that should be the final one.
Now people might say doing all this in 4hrs would not be possible but I would contend that if people were prepared then it would be. Not all the info would be relevant in all cases but at least it's been considered and a decision made..
FF
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Whateverfor.....I think you may the be one who is confused!
There is nothing in the F1 sporting regulations that says it was ok for Hamilton to overtake just because Trulli went wide off the turn.
And also there's nothing that says is was ok for Trulli to take back the position just because Hamilton slowed down enough to let him past.
I don't know where you heard or read that these overtaking moves were somehow legitimate. The rules are clear, you're not allowed to overtake under Safety Car subject to some very specific exceptions, none of which applied here.
But, while the rules on overtaking under Safety Car are clear, the Stewards still retain full discretion as to whether to apply the appropriate penalty(ies).....and that's where all the chaos and confusion starts.
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My initial thoughts on the episode. Not again, this cannot be happening again. Can't we just have results from the track & not from subsequent judgements.
Next thought, this is one episode they won't be blamming Ferarri. But we have Madmax & maestro48 comments......
fnk
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Whilst I cannot condone lying and cheating to improve your result (the reason I have never given Schumacher the respect that statistics suggest he should deserve) there is an issue that is being ignored by the FIA and the WMSC - the fact that the discipline of the Grands Prix is policed by Stewards who change for every race, make inconsistent and sometimes seemingly random decisions from race to race, and often - as in this case - are either unavailable for comment and clarification when it is needed or - as was the case last year when Lewis re-passed Kimi Raikonnen - make decisions after the race that contradict the advice that was given during it.
If McLaren had the opportuity to ask the question that they tried to - i.e. that they'd passed under the safety car because Trulli had left the track, and were they required to concede the place - then this whole situation would probably never had arisen, and if it had would have been very clear-cut.
On the other hand, of course, if they'd simply said in the inquiry that they'd let Trulli pass because they'd overtaken under the safety car and in the absence of clarification relinquished the place as the most logical option it should then have simply been up to the Stewards to decide which way around to award the places.
At the back of Ryan's mind, though, would have been the concern that historically 50/50 decisions go against McLaren, and the opportunity to sway the decision would have been very tempting indeed.
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Initially Lewis says he was a team player when saying what he did to the stewards(dong what Dave Ryan told him). So how come he comes out and says Dave Ryan misled him after Ryan was sacked. Does he think 'team' comes in only when he wants something out of the situation and stab Ryan for the same. Hypocrites mclaren. Just apologise and move on why blame some one else.
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I have read through all the comments and like most others, I think the problem is with the stewards having the ability to change results long after the race has finished. Having listened to the radio recording, it is clear Hamilton is totally preoccupied with making sure he does not incur any penalty as a result of Truli coming off the track and at that point not knowing that the race would end under the safety car. With regards to Ted's interview, well, what kind of answers can you expect to those type of questions. How about the media concentrating on the driving rather than the politics and what was actually an issue that could have easily been resolved by looking at Truli's on-board footage. After all, Truli should perhaps apologise to Hamilton for not reporting that he left the track under the safety car before stepping up on the podium. Had he been honest in the first place, the issue would never have happened. I would like to hear Truli's radio conversations at the time too.
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This whole episode with Lewis Hamilton and Mclaren smakes of here we go again. It shows Mclaren doing what Mclaren does best, Cheat. LH is supposed to be a world champion and should act like a world champion not a Mclaren/ Dad mouthpiece. He new what he said was wrong and should not blame someone else for what he said. I dont remember Ron Dennis ever having been sent home for saying something like this. So why Dave Ryan.
Dont pass the buck
Lets see how good LH is with no points from three races, see how his image holds up
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Lewis knew that he had let Trulli through. He knew that the team had given false evidence and, significantly, he knew that the result of that evidence was that Jarno Trulli had been given a 25 second penalty and was getting no points when he had done nothing wrong because Lewis had slowed to let him pass.
What worries me is that on the back of that result, Lewis said nothing. I think it is possible to say that he was caught up in the emotion on the day and knew that he deserved third but when the result of not telling the full picture was that Toyota received a crushing penalty which they did not deserve, how could Lewis sit back and allow that to happen. That is cheating and is dishonest. If Lewis was told he could not say anything by Dave Ryan then Dave Ryan should be sacked, not suspended. I find it hard to believe that all senior McLaren management were not made aware of this issue. Lewis should have escalated it to the top level of McLaren if he was being told to cheat. If he did escalate it then the team are cheats and I feel sorry for Lewis. If Lewis did nothing about it when he knew the consequences for Trulli, sadly his reputation is rightfully tarnished.
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How could McLaren have been so stupid to think the truth would not come out. After all thier years in this sport it seems bizarre that they would make such a mistake that could not only cost them the championship but thier reputation as well.They were so blind I just cant work out why for 1 extra point in the first race of the season. Ferrari hadnt got any why why why Mclaren did you do this?????????????
Hamilton needs to put his brain in gear he makes such stupid mistakes. He has to take some of the blame for this he should know the rules just like the team. He needs some serious help in the politics and PR matters of F1, if you do say something make sure you wont regret it later.
Everyone needs to get together and figure out a way to keep the racing on the track and not decided by the FIA. I have been watching this sport a long time and know full well how things work but if they are going to attract new fans this stuff has to stop. Fans will walk away if this continues to happen and who can blame them. Over the past years too much has been decided off the track but dont blame the FIA the tems played a much bigger part in that.
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the way things are going at Austarlia it wont be long before the Safety Car Driver will be awarded the win
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Hi all I watched the Aussie GP & the commentators had given Lewis as 3rd & said that Truli had passed under the safety car. & so what if the pit told Lewis to let him pass Truli did the passing! so what's the fuss all about
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Someone maybe Madmax and maestro48 please tell me what Ferrari and Schumacher have to do with this.
1. Ferrari were out of the race and are not involved in this Trulli drives a TOYOTA!!!!!
2. This will be the 3RD season without Schumacher when are you going to let it go???????
3. Schumacher came into Formula 1 when Senna and Prost ran each other off the track for the title on more than 1 occasion. No one said much then but when Schumacher made the mistake and did it himself NO ONE will drop the matter is it because he is German or that you are purely jelous of his outstanding talent.
Let the past go and concentrate on hat is going on THIS SEASON please. Lets not make this about something other than what it is!!!!
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I think bluejam has it right. I wonder if it was Ferrari what would have been the outcome ?
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Bravo davidk21
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Tell Eddie Jordon to shut the hell up and stop harping on about Mclaren
A mistake has been made leave it alone now Hamilton id not the only driver and team suffering from a punishment this weekend!
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I think that Hamilton has got some growing up still to do, and I don't think that McClaren are the team to help him do it. Even under Ron Dennis they had a history of poor decision-making going back to before Hamilton first drove for them, and they repeatedly give the impression of being a bunch of chancers rather than a disciplined and led team.
So who in F1 could sort Hamilton's attitude out and maximise his chances in future seasons, any suggestions?
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surely Hamilton must be punnished for lieing to officials regardless of anything else or has lieing become so common it dosent matter?
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There seems to be a lot of confusion about this -and there are also some questions that need to be answered.
The questions first:
1. McLaren's team radio has been published, but what was happening at Toyota? As I understand it (from the only comment I've seen published anywhere) Trulli misled his own team because he failed to mention that he had gone off the track....
2. What does the telemetry actually show? Hamilton insists he did not slow to let Trulli through (though some watchers suggest he slowed because he was coming up to the accident site, where a truck was on-track). Unfortunately, the only footage of Trulli's overtake I know of is on the BBC site (good for them) and I can't see it because it will not play abroad (boo!).
3. What did the stewards actually ask McLaren and Hamilton and 4. Why did they not then consult team radio and telemetry (given that Hamilton and Trulli's versions of what happened were not in agreement, and so one of them must have been "economical" with the facts!)?
Now for the confusion:
McLaren and Hamilton are not being penalised for anything that happened on-track. They are being penalised because the stewards beleive they were less than fully honest in the following hearing.....
Both drivers can feel that they did nothing wrong on-track: Hamilton overtook while Trulli was off-track, and there was little else he could have done. Trulli overtook because he beleived Hamilton had a problem and the McLaren driver let hims through (assuming he did so deliberately) because -after the debacle at Spa last year- the team were afraid they would be penalised if they did not, and could not get hold of race control to get confirmation Hamilton was OK in 3rd place.
On that basis, I think neither driver should have been penalised, and the stewards' best option was to leave the standings as they were (Trulli in third place, Hamilton in fourth) on the grounds that McLaren had handed back a place (to which they would have been entitled). That is what would have happened if McLaren and Hamilton had been honest about what happened (McLaren: "we realised we did not need to let Trulli through, but by then it was too late, so now we're appealing"; Stewards: "It's your own silly fault if you don't know the rules!").
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Lewis is a bit old to be saying "but Dave Ryan told me to say...." - to me if Dave Ryan has been suspended or lost his job so should Lewis as he is equally as culpable in this matter.
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"As I understand it, if Hamilton had finished the race in third and been honest about the circumstances and the discussions on the team radio then the chances are that the stewards would have reinstated Trulli in third ahead of the Englishman and that would have been the end of the matter."
I guess this is where nobody is clear. Trulli went off and lost position, Lewis didn't take it away from him so in all reality, he didn't have to give it back. Trulli should have ceded 3rd to LH but as Charlie was allegedly too scared to make a decision, we have the complete opposite of Spa - but then according to what you read, Charlie said that LH was OK in Spa and the stewards did a 180 after the race so Charlies opinion counts for nothing
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104 a point I tried to make in 102
money means everything personal integraraty nothing
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I am confused, in the radio transcript you could hear Hamilton (rightly) stating that Truli went off "... all four wheels" therefore under the rules Hamilton was right to pass him, it was not technically an overtaking move as Trulli was not on the circuit. The error came in Hamilton being told to let him by by the team management even though they were "... talking to Charlie". I believe it was the fear factor that is within the McLaren team that lead them to tell Hamilton to let Trulli past as there has to be a sense of being under intense scrutiny by the Stewards and FIA after all that has gone in the past (some justified, some not IMHO).
McLaren have to been seen to be whiter than white at the moment, but I have to say if it was a red car with a prancing horse under Hamilton then he would of got a way with it IMHO. There is a certain soft spot in the FIA, F1 Management, and with the Stewards for Ferrari, probably because they fear the repercussions of upsetting them and the resulting backlash of the fans world-wide. There are numerous occasions where Ferrari and their drivers have got away with things that I think other teams would not, to name a few various examples is pointless as anyone who follows the sport will know as many as me.
The sport is a spectacle, with Ferrari as the Star player, so it is not to be unexpected, but it still makes me squirm when people talk of a it as some sort of level playing field, when it is so obviously not.
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I just cannot believe what I am reading here. Our social downfall is upon us. Is England so involved in the "win at all costs" mentality that cheating is blamed on someone else. 2007 McLaren stole over 600 pages of Ferrari's technical data. Used it to design their 2008 car, got caught and were duely punished. Mclaren apologised to Ferrari and all was well. Now for the big BUT! bloggers here complained of Ferrari injustice! Ferrari runs F1! etc. Ok all good and well steal data use it then say oh someone else is to blame.
Fast forward to Australia 2009. Mclaren and Hamilton come from nowhere to record an incredible race and have 4th place in the bag. Hamilton then does all he can, on the orders of Mclaren, to get Trulli into trouble and go for 3rd place. Knowing that all drivers conversations are recorded to be used by the marshalls after the race Mclaren STILL try and convince the stewards that Trulli was in the wrong.
(By the way to all who say the stewards should have used video evidence etc and come to their own conclusions, video, radio and driver interviews are all part of their normal investigative process that takes place after any Formula One Grand Prix.)
And now for the kicker! People here are STIL blaming Ferrari and saying that is all Ferrari's fault. This I find simply amazing. I want races to take place on the track just like all fans I am sure but it must be a fair track race from start to finish. When you do wrong don't start pointing fingers. Accept the punishment and make sure that you learn your lesson.
So now I just hope that Brawn GP can get some huge sponsors in, not just Virgin, and Ross can keep his brilliant car at the top for a long time to come. Jenson Button to be world champion 2009.
All this coming from a die hard F1 fan. Lets just get on with fair racing.
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ExcellentFerrai-Kat.
I have nothing against the Schumacher`s infact up untill thier retirement from F1 i supported Micheal and Ralph. I think you have miss read my post when i made the ref about Brazil it was to add to the fact that stewards change their minds hours, days and sometime week after the event so why not go stupid and look at every race that has ever been held and re judge them im sure if they done this the likes of Fangio, Moss, Hawthorn and so on would all be adjudged to have commitede some sort of infringement.
The only thing i will add i would have loved to have seen Ralph and Micheal in the same team to see who was the better driver Best moment was when Ralph tried to fly over Micheal`s car and took them both out.
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Bluejam - 'A question has to be asked about why they weren't given any guidance at all from Race Control for all that time'. With respect, getting the race going again ASAP was the main priority, and this needed the top guy's answer not just a junior opinion.
But the real sad truth is this. Despite some diferences of opinion on the right outcome - there will always be those - we can all agree I think on three things:
1) The current system of different stewards for each race is not working. Either dramatically simplify and clarify the rules, or have permanent stewards - or preferably both.
2) Sometimes the penalties available to the stewards do not fit the circumstances - specifically, they seem too concerned with 'punishing', rather than allowing them to just correct an injustice through an accidental or marginal breach of the rules. Eg. had Trulli been judged to have broken the rules, but unintentionally, he should have been dropped to 4th - but apparently the stewards couldn't do that. Why the hell not!
3) Delegate one guy to deal with team's queries during the race on legitimacy, and his decision is final. Any new info etc. afterwards on his or stewards' decisions is dealt with by the FIA, via a future penalty. That way, what you see on the track is (by and large) what you get.
Now - if WE can all agree on those three oints, (and I'd be interested in why anybody didn't..) why can't the FIA see that?
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I am still at a loss to what happened here - Team radio told Lewis to let Jano pass they also told him that 'They had or where talking to Charlie about the passing so how did the team hope to put one over on the stewards - I must be missing something here
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i think the main point in all this saga (yet again) still boils down to last years debacle with confusion and misinterpretation of rules and the so inconsistent decisions made by the stewards.
at the end of the day, this has not been a racing incident in as much as someone broke the rules during a race or drove dangerously.
with all the inconsistent decisions last year, i find it really unbelievable that anyone isn't questioning things as they are now. the fact remains that hamilton passed trulli because trulli left the track, that is fair enough, but what astonishes me is the fact that mclaren had to seek help & needed a response from the FIA racing directors to determine whether hamilton should give the place back to trulli or not. they didn't get a REPLY BACK from the race director or FIA stewards, so Mclaren (Dave Ryan) played caution and told Hamilton to give the place back to trulli & let him back in front.
afterall, if he didn't give the place back, and the stewards decided to penalise hamilton for that, then you'd all be having a completely different discussion right now.
so who was right & who was wrong? was mclaren right to tell hamilton to give the place back or were they wrong? even Hamilton wasn't so sure either or he wouldn't have asked the question in the 1st place, even though he questioned the decision.
so at the end of the day, it' all about the rules and interpretations of those rules, and that is what needs to ultimately be sorted out. the rules should be more clearly worded, maybe this diffuser issue would not be a case either if those same rules were clearly defined. But when the rules aren't clearly defined, it opens them up to allsorts of interpretations.
we saw last year, Hamilton penalised for giving a place back to raikkonen, only then to retake the place on the next corner. he was penalised for doing that even though technically he hadn't broke the rules at the time, the rules weren't clear enough or defined well enough, leading to misinterpretation, but after the race, that RULE was CHANGED so that you have to wait at least 2 corners or a certain distance before re-overtaking again. that was not hamiltons fault, that was clearly a misinterpretation of a rule that was not CLEARLY defined. he should not have been punished for that reason, especially as the rule was changed to make it clearer AFTER the incident.
so is this what we are going to face this year? race results again decided by the stewards rather than on the race track?
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i see the bbc are still unwilling to say lewis did that thing that we dare not mention by name. Ted Kravitz's report described events as Lewis being "party to a ***". David Caultard's online report says that others have called lewis a ****.
Yet, when a BBC News24 anchor first reported Dave Ryan's involvement, he was point blank refered to as having "****" to the stewards. Lewis on the other hand was merely refered to as having "misled" the stewards.
David Coultard suggests in his report, that Dave Ryan did not knowingly tell an untruth to the stewards or knowingly instruct lewis to tell an untruth.
David Coultard says we have not heard the last of this, and i reckon he's right. When the truth finaly comes out i believe it will show that -
a) Dave Ryan unknowingly misled the stewards.
b) Lewis Hamilton knowingly misled the stewards.
Only one of those can be described as that which can not be mentioned, and the BBC News24 anchor had it the wrong way round.
The BBC were quick to defame Dave Ryan, but any comment saying the same thing about Lewis Hamilton is removed from the BBC website.
The BBC pandering to the rich and famous - tell me it isnt true.
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"86. At 08:18am on 04 Apr 2009, biglogger wrote:
Whateverfor.....I think you may the be one who is confused!
There is nothing in the F1 sporting regulations that says it was ok for Hamilton to overtake just because Trulli went wide off the turn.
"
YES THERE IS! Lewis knew it and the team realised it.
"And also there's nothing that says is was ok for Trulli to take back the position just because Hamilton slowed down enough to let him past."
YES THERE IS! For the same reason as above.
"I don't know where you heard or read that these overtaking moves were somehow legitimate. The rules are clear, you're not allowed to overtake under Safety Car subject to some very specific exceptions, none of which applied here."
YES THEY DO! The specific exceptions are "obvious problem". You dont need it to be more obvious than Trulli being off the track and Lewis slowing right down off line.
"But, while the rules on overtaking under Safety Car are clear, the Stewards still retain full discretion as to whether to apply the appropriate penalty(ies).....and that's where all the chaos and confusion starts."
NO, NO CONFUSION THERE AT ALL.
It is ok to pass when the car in front has an obvious problem, and as Trulli was off the track, it was ok for Lewis to pass. Trulli did nothing "wrong" in passing Lewis because Lewis had an obvious problem, he slowed down to let Trulli past.
The point is, neither would have been punished by the stewards for what they did on the track, and the results would have been lewis 3rd and trulli 4th if Lewis had told the truth about what happened.
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Dear biglogger
Look at it this way, say a car infront breaksdown but does not stop, is it ok to pass, is it within the rules to pass, is it right to pass?
The answer is yes because one of the exceptions is "obvious problem".
The stewards do not say to themselves that someone broke the rules but we have decided not to punish them for it. They accept that it was ok to pass, that it was in the rules to pass.
As for whether the stewards would have reversed the positions if only Hamilton had told the truth, we'll obviously never know for sure. ;-)
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Yet another contentious issue involving Lewis... does this not highlight the failings of Mclarens sponsorship program of Lewis. Personally I don't rate Lewis as a great, but the media focus, over recent years, has placed him in the spotlight, a spotlight he has admitted to seeking since his younger years. Now he had has to prove himself to be all he professes to be. Instead he places the blame for this incident on the team or more specifically another team member. It time for Lewis to face up to the facts. If you waltz around the paddock with the ego be gutzy enough to take criticism on the chin and don't point the finger of blame at someone else. I hope this proves to other teams that champions cannot be made. Lewis might be world champion on paper but he doesn't deserve to be in the company of the true great champions.
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ok, one last go, cuz ive got nothing better to do :-)
Who ever is right biglogger, you or i, we seem to agree that neither would have been punished by the stewards if only lewis had told the truth. Whether thats because they did nothing wrong or because the stewards would have decided not to punish them for their wrongdoing, it amounts to the same thing.
The evidence for that is that Hamilton kept his place initially, therefore the stewards either ruled he did nothing wrong or they ruled what he did wrong was not worthy of a punishment.
The reason Trulli was punished by the stewards was because lewis did not tell the truth. Once the truth was known trulli was reinstated. There was no incompetence on behalf of the stewards. They could not have expected lewis to tell an untruth. They should not be expected to check the radio there and then to see if a driver is being truthful. Else why even bother asking lewis if all they are going to do is wait while they check the radio.
An hour after the race and that radio transmission was probably packed up and on its way to malaysia. It probably took 4 days to put right because the radio transmission recording was with mclaren, and the first time after the race that they got there hands on it was when mclaren unpacked their stuff in malaysia. Imagine if they had reruled on it but didnt have the proof in their press release - it made sense to wait.
so quite why you think "someone like Jonathan needs to ask the right questions about the role and performance of the Stewards" is beyond me. perhaps you can explain?
perhaps you want them to treat everyone like dishonest children at the outset and not take anyones word for anything? perhaps you think that they should have asked to hear the radio transmission there and then despite hearing what lewis had to say on the matter?
trulli admitted to going off the track, so there was to be no punishment for lewis because trulli had an "obvious problem".
lewis did not admit to letting trulli past, there was no "obvious problem" so they punished trulli.
You can argue whether you think that lewis letting trulli past constitutes an acceptable exception to the no overtaking rule if you like. But the stewards reinstation of trulli should settle the matter for you. They clearly think it was ok for trulli to do that and so should you.
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Hamilton´s behavior is respectable and a good example of sportsmanship
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are misleading and lying the same thing?
can we agree that Hamilton has acted with integrity?
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Answering to "jordir"'s posting...
How amusing. Just another person that can't be objective. Alonso lost the 2007 championship when HE decided to act the way he did in Hungary. Those are the points that cost him the championship (plus the 2 he lost in Indy when HE made a mistake and couldn't pass Lewis after that, plus the ones he lost in Canada by insisting on using different brakes, plus the ones he lost in Fuji by driving constantly off the racing line on a wet track).
Don't defend if you can't be objective enough.
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With hindsight, McLaren have been incredibly amateur about this.
First of all, as Trulli left the track and Hamilton passed him, there is clearly a discussion on the radio where he asks the team what he should do. Rather than concede the place so obviously, they should have said to him to slow down enough that Trulli could pass if he wanted, but not enough to risk other cars thinking he had a problem and passing him. That would have been a wise thing to do anyway, but would have put the emphasis back on Trulli to retake the position under yellow.
Of course, knowing the FIA and their stewards, Hamilton would have been given a 25 second penalty for passing under yellow (even though they say now that is not the case). So the whole problem would probably not have happened if Hamilton had not been victimized by the stewards last year.
But McLaren and Hamilton were stupid to go to the stewards and mislead them, when Hamilton had clearly already been open about what had happened.
Finally, the FIA look ridiculous. After Hamilton's absurd 25 second stewards penalty last year, the FIA denied McLaren's appeal against it on the basis that the stewards 25 second penalties could not be overturned. But Toyota appealed anyway, and although it was later dropped, the FIA was clearly happy to cancel Trulli's 25 second penalty. Clearly they could have overturned the stewards 25 second ban on Hamilton last year and restored a rightful race win.
No one comes out of this well. McLaren look like cheats, and the FIA look like they are bending the rules yet again to ensure McLaren lose out.
Does anyone think if Ferrari had turned up and done the same, they would not have got away with it? Honestly?
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On the Formula One programme just now, it was suggested that if McLaren voluntarily let Jano Trulli pass Lewis Hamilton under the safety car then the change of position would have been allowed to stand.
That is surely bizarre. If drivers are forced to defend themselves from others overtaking them when the safety car is out in order not to be deemed to have voluntarily relinquished their place, then the whole field will begin racing again.
Each driver will be forced to respond to the one behind, so it only takes one driver, such as Jano Trulli, to try to get his position back for every driver in front to have to speed up, defeating the object of having a safety car at all.
The only sensible rule is the one I assumed was the case, namely, that the same order must be maintained while the safety car is out and the stewards will settle who has overtaken illegally.
It would be correct under these circumstances to for McLaren to let Trulli pass and leave it to the stewards to sort the problem out rather than begin racing him.
It seems that confusion over this rule is the cause of McLarens problems and this should be sorted out publicly rather than simply blaming McLaren for what occurred.
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Where was the BBC's forum programme on the red button?
This is very disappointing. I was looking forward to the promised coverage and discussion until 1:00pm, as promised.
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well this season is certainly shaping up to be very interesting, isn't it? - a whole different bunch of guys at the front and previously prominent drivers (Hamilton, Massa, Raikonnen, Kubica, Alonso, Heidfeld) pretty much nowhere - seems to prove beyond reasonable doubt that, when it comes to F1, it's all about the car not the driver
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Another FIA triumph!
1. The FIA set today's (Malaysian) GP very late afternoon (nearing evening time), during monsoon periods, when there are generally torrential rain storms in this part of the world in the late afternoon. It probably would have been too dark to re-start the race at the last minute.
2. The FIA took 50 minutes to decide to cancel the remainder of today's race.
3. As the FIA took so long to decide what to do, the 2 hour 'window' for the race ran out. As the number of laps completed were below the required number for the top 8 to get points, the drivers only got half the points.
3. It took the FIA many minutes after the race was abandoned for the information to leak out as to which driver was in which place. General confusion!
4. Were the TV stations around the world given full value for money...?
5. Anyway, if the leading cars are declared 'illegal' at the hearing in a couple of weeks' time, both the first two races will have become a complete farce, as there will be a completely top 8.
6. What next?
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When Button was driving for Williams many years ago, I seem to remember that he went off the track while following safety car, just before the restart. Did all the others stop and wait for him? Were they penalised for passing? I can't remember.
If there is a big 'off' while there is a safety car period there can be little option but for cars to pass, can there?
Weren't there cars passing under safety car conditions today in Malaysia? Again I'm not sure, but there seemed to be a lot of cars spinning off the while the safety car was out, and shots of others passing them.
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The Hamilton lie-gate really has taken on a life of it's own and unnecessarily so, he was either poorly advised, niaeve or both. He has been punished and severly too. If the 09 season is going to be dragged through the stewarts room and the FIA appeals court it is going to be a long season. The FIA/FOM need to take a look at their own house in the wake of the start time fiasco at the first two races. Complaints of poor light in OZ and it seems that even the dogs in the street in Malaysia warned about starting a race that late in the day due to incoming weather. What was the race director doing when the race had been red flagged. The race was over, why did they not just say so. If Charlie needed any help in making his mind up I would have thought the sight of Kimi strolling around in shorts and flip flops eating ice cream would have given some indication as to his state of mind!!! Who know's maybe Bernie should give an account to the stewarts, the FIA and last but not least the people who pay for the show - The Fans.
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you are very lucky in the UK as here in Australia we had adverts, and did not see what happened, and have still not see it.
If is was so simple as the blogs make it to be, how come Mclaren tried to 'manipulate' things over 1 point - they were lucky to get any anyway.
what a mess. PS go Jenson
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McLaren attempted, through dishonesty, to have Trulli severely penalised. He and Toyota have good reason to be very angry yet have remained silent.
Have they been offered an appology?
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MaccaBoyFT - True that Alonso held up Hamilton at Hungry in the pits, but this was in revenge for Hamilton deliberately not letting Alonso past to do his Hot Lap earlier on in the qualifying session - this had been agreed between the team before qualifying - Hamilton ignored this. I can't remember what the exact scenario was and how / this affected strategy, but this is why Alonso held up Hamilton in the pits. It wasn't something he did without reason.
True, Alonso was at fault, but Hamilton initially 'started' the 'games' during that qualifying session.
Its not that black and white, as i admit i initially thought.
Hamilton has talked about this in an interview
As regards this issue, as a couple of of others have said, we know that Hamilton did know he was told to let Trulli past, as the radio converstaion shows this beyond doubt. It also could be the case, that Dave Ryan wasn't aware that Hamilton had been ordered to let Trulli past, and so was unaware that he was telling an 'untruth' to the Stewards. Hamilton didn't shout up when he had the chance, whichever way you play it.
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I give up. My comments seem to have upset the BBC. So I have changed my mind I am going to give my vote for Hamilton in this years BBC sports personality of the year. Let’s just see how many votes he gets. Mind you, if the BBC has a phone in again he might just win it
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Oh for the days when a car finished first and he actually won the race, it seems now that stewards and judges now decide how a race finishes, maybe we should have something similar to the pools panel and they can decide the positions, and that way we wont need to have any races and the good people of McLaren wont feel the need to try and con the stewards into making changes.
It really is a sad state of affairs just because they dont have the best car now they think they need to stoop to such levels. The only issue I have with Jonathons Blog is the one that says this wouldnt have happened if Ron Dennis had still been there, remember all the problems last year with Alonso etc and the downgrading of the team in the pit lane McLaren have a history now of being economical with the truth.
But the one thing all that has happened this year is that it proves that Hamilton is not the best driver in the world and that he is one of many drivers who are of equal ability but give them the fastest car like Button and they can win races.
This brings up a whole new discussion now about the percentages of worth to a team is it car or driver.In my view the car is worth 90% and the driver 10%, maybe people will reflect on this when they vote for P.O.Y this time round
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What I find interesting is just before this all happened Toyota decided not to bother appealing as they didn't think there was any chance of winning an appeal. This is odd because Trulli would have seen Hamilton slow down to let him pass and known that they would be able to get access to all the telemetries from the teams to prove this, information which would contradict Hamilton/Maclarens version of events and definately worth appealing for. So it makes me wonder why Toyota would not want to appeal? Then I remembered that it was a Toyota (Glock) that Hamilton overtook on the last corner to win in Brazil last year and it all made sense.
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Why do McLaren feel that they should always get themselves into trouble?
This wouldn't have surprised me if Ron Dennis, who in my opinion should have resigned following the spy scandal last year, considering the dent in the reputation it had on him and Team McLaren.
They didn't get suspended last year with Hamilton still being allowed to race on, I get the feeling that they will face some punishment which will yet again damage their Championships, shot themselves in the foot again.
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147. At 12:33pm on 07 Apr 2009, JohnnySluff wrote:
What I find interesting is just before this all happened Toyota decided not to bother appealing as they didn't think there was any chance of winning an appeal. This is odd because Trulli would have seen Hamilton slow down to let him pass and known that they would be able to get access to all the telemetries from the teams to prove this, information which would contradict Hamilton/Maclarens version of events and definately worth appealing for. So it makes me wonder why Toyota would not want to appeal?
They probably know the rules and realise that you can't appeal against the penalty so it would have been a complete waste of time.
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IM ABSOULTELY SEETING WITH RAGE at the sheer scale of ignorance of the people who have commented on Lewis being at fault for the lying over the Aussie Grand Prix.Right now listen up you people. If you are employed by a powerful organistaion or boss and they give you something to say then you have to say or do it.Youc ant say no or you will be sacked or there penalised in some way.If your boss gives you an order you do it or get the sack or are disciplined in some way. Hamilton was given what to say, he could not say he would not do it , and thus risk upset members of his senior management,especially since he , Hamilton is very New to F1. WHAT YOU YOU THINK HE WAS SUPPOSE TO DO WHEN GIVEN A DIRECT ORDER. WHAT WOULD YOU DO? PLEASE THINK THINGS THROUGH BEFORE TALKING ON THIS SITE- BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT MAKING ANY SENSE
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Like a number of others I find this whole situation reflects very badly on not only Maclaren and Hamilton but the whole sport.
The one thing that really puzzles me is why a team with Maclarens vast experience and the current world champion did not appear to have a full grasp of the rules. They did not understand that it is perfectly legitimate to overtake under a yellow flag if, as Trulli did, the vehicle in front goes completely off the track.
Hamilton confirmed that this is what Trulli did during the now infamous radio exchanges with the pit team and he was still advised to let Trulli re-overtake - unbelievable!
Hamilton should have rightfully taken 3rd spot and would now be 3rd in the championship - a remarkable achievement conidering the apparantly poor competitiveness of the Maclaren.
We would all be saying what a brilliant driver Hamilton is (and he is).
Now he and Maclaren will forever be remembered and tarnished for trying to get back the 3rd place points by "being economical with the truth" instead of the proper place to get them - on the track.
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dean008 - you are correct mate but that is the shallowness of thought of some people.
Also I would like to question this chapter in the article
"As a result of Hamilton's explanation, Toyota's Jarno Trulli was demoted from third to 12th for passing the McLaren under safety car conditions and Hamilton promoted to third from fourth."
The problem here and not addressed is simply that the FIA does not allow the logical application of rules which would be Trulli and Hamilton's positions reversed. Trulli's demotion to 12th place has nothing to do with McLaren (except incidentally), it is entirely because the only race penalty that can be given is a 25 second penalty. If they looked at each situation on its merits or had the wherewithall to deal with this during the race, then this entire debacle need never have happened.
Plus calling it Hamilton's explanation is another inflammatory statement by the writer of the article when in fact FIA are at the seat of this. It should have been a simple case of reversing the positions but the FIA does not allow this. This should have been addressed in the article.
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The reason Toyota didn't appeal is that last year it was ruled teams cdnt go to the appeals court over a time penalty. it wasn't the appeals court that changed the decision it was the stewards after "new" information was brought to their attention that they should have know about to start with.
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“The world champion and McLaren boss Whitmarsh have now apologised for the deception - but the damage has been done, with no prospect of repair.” – Jonathan Legard
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I think you CANT say or write something like that using exactly these words. “..with no prospect of repair”?! No further comment; just that point – remember Max Mosley’s affairs last year. Though is STILL VERY DIFFERENT. THAT was a SCANDAL. Mr. Mosley was the President of FIA. And even after the scandal he IS still FIA’s President. Lewis Hamilton is just a driver.
151. At 1:56pm on 07 Apr 2009, dean008 wrote: “If you are employed by a powerful organisation or boss….Hamilton is very New to F1.”
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You have a point here. (PLS, don’t be seething with rage anymore : ) ). They just MESS it UP A LOT and most of all for me was A COMPLETE LACK of INNER TEAM COMMUNICATION. The truth will always come to sight; the problem is how they all handled what came out.
Just saw the sport’s pages of the Daily Telegraph today’s edition. David Coulthard’s column on page 20. If you can find it read it. (He has a very good point!).
That includes Jonathan Legard. Come on, Jonathan, you definitely CAN DO BETTER!! And WHY DO YOU think there is “no prospect of repair”? I reckon Lewis Hamilton still will be driving; and McLaren still will be an F1 team.
Hm, they’ve tried EVERYTHING to save the “dying” ex- Honda; so now to destroy completely existing and functioning F1 team. Who will allow that?
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i also do not understand why Trulli's penalty was reversed
he wasn't forced to overtake Hamilton
he also has a pit radio and would've been told what to do regarding the rules
and Hamilton's pit radio - which is apparently tantamount to God - clearly tells of how Trullislowed right down in front of him, yet bizarrely Hamilton still managed not to overtake
whatever happened after the race has absolutely no bearing on what happened in the incident itself that I can see. Hamilton didn't fall off the road, and he didn't stop his car. Trulli chose to go past him and Toyota chose to cross the finish line 3rd.
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Storm in a teacup in my opinion. McLaren main concern now is getting their car competitive again. It is also testimony to Lewis Hamilton's greta driving skills that he has even managed to pick up point(s) in 2 races despite the debacles of disqualification in Melbourne. F1 needs Lewis Hamilton not the other way.
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My very comment to a friend who asked me if I was going to Melbourne to watch the Australian Grand Prix. My answer I do not like the quality of boys that walk around in pyjama suits. These are kids and mistakes of sentiment are fitting incidents ...
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A man who looks so sheepish, like a schoolboy, even, when telling the world that he is not a liar, not a dishonest person had better not be a guy who had told everyone he wasn't moving to Switzerland for tax evasion reasons.
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"The public may well perceive him to be a liar, even though he has apologised for his behaviour."
An interesting statement, that looks like two entirely different sentences have been wedged into one.
After all, apologizing doesn't change what happened.
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lewis did nothing wrong in my opinion!and even though hes in a inferior car to finish in 3rd or 4th from 18th shows how good of a driver he is.
i think lewis is constantly very harshly treated,but he must stay strong and overcome this obstacle and get back to showing us how good he REALLY is!he must stay with mclaren,hopefully they will improve there car and then we'll see lewis battling for wins against button which will be great.
for me lewis is the reason why the last 2 seasons were great,
this season will not be as good if hes not challenging for wins.
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who cares if lewis moved to switzerland to avoid paying tax!
less money for jackie smith and alike!
plus he isnt the only f1 driver to live in a tax haven.
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Hamilton, world champion yes, the best in the world no
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We already know what McLaren's solicitors will be claiming in the meeting.
The unlawful act was commited by one individual only who has been internally punished and is not working for the company any more (..after being paid a few millions to keep his mouth shut). No senior members in the team had any knowledge whatsoever of the unlawful act or were informed of what happened in the meeting in the 4 days in-between (..they were on holiday somewhere in Malaysia). The other individual who commited the unlawful act does not count as he is not a senior member (..just a little driver who is allowed to lie to the stewards regarding his own actions), and besides he is oficially in the clear as he has accepted FIA's generous invitation to offer a 'sincere', 'emotional' and 'heartfelt' apology (..as have McLaren so they should be ok too -although they didn't do it in the FIA press room)
We've heard this exact line of defense not too long ago.
McLaren = hole (add your own prefix)
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The Legend Michael Schumacher was deemed a "cheat" when he parked his car on the last turn in Monaco! What do u call this? The Inexperience of Youth?
...And Lewis has won only 1 championship compared to 7 of Michael!
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I strongly disagree with anyone who says Hamilton HAD to do what his employer told him to do. It's not like Hamilton is a checkout worker being told what to do by Tesco's - he's a prominent member of the team, one of the most important members of the team and one of the best F1 drivers in the world. He has the power to say "I disagree with that" - because I bet if given the choice between Dave Ryan and Hamilton, McLaren would take the world champion, the marketing tool, their only chance at getting something out of this year.
But let's put it into perspective. He's only a kid. He doesn't have a big enough ego to say no - and a big part of it is his dad. Lewis is never gonna mature into a decisive, bullish and reliable driver while his daddy is ushering him around and making decisions for him. I'm 22 and I couldn't walk into a bank with my dad, even though I know he's very good at dealing with banks. I'm my own man and I manage myself, and if I need money advice I'll pay an accountant, a professional with whom I can develop a professional relationship.
Lewis, drop your dad.
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@rawblogger - Schumacher had a long history of unsportsmanlike conduct before the Monaco incident. He also had a long career - over a decade - in F1. As Hamilton is just starting his third season, there is little comparison to be made.
Seriously, I think Ron Dennis must be shaking his head in disbelief at Whitmarsh and Ryan. Hamilton was being very cautious, given that the FIA seem to come down on McLaren like a ton of bricks at the slightest opportunity, and he was seriously let down by a very foolish decision.
I do begin to wonder if this is the first sign of cracks appearing in the team, and whether Hamilton will be "considering better offers" next year. BrawnGP would never be able to afford him, but Ferrari might just...
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I have to say i'm extremely disappointed with Lewis's reaction to this situation. I can understand that he is frustrated with the current performace of his car but that is not an excuse to behave the way he has.
So it was the fact he was a team player that led him to agree to go along with this charade yet as soon as he's found out he points the fingure at Dave Ryan (even if he was the main instigator in this debacle), Then, apparently he's talked about throwing his toys out of the pram by walking away from Formula 1.
I have to say I’m extremely disappointed with Lewis's reaction to this situation. I can understand that he is frustrated with the current performance of his car but that is not an excuse to behave the way he has.
So it was the fact he was a team player that led him to agree to go along with this charade yet as soon as he's found out he points the finger at Dave Ryan (even if he was the main instigator in this debacle), Then, apparently he's talked about throwing his toys out of the pram by walking away from Formula 1.
Dave Ryan may have been in the wrong but what's happened to Lewis’s loyalty to McLaren?...the team that have supported him and nurtured him since he was a boy...the team that provided him with the car to win the world championship and the team that took his side in the battle with Fernando Alonso.
Lewis, you are a great driver but your pathetic protestations are either naive or show a total lack of respect and loyalty for the team that have got you where you are!!!
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it's becoming increasingly harder to stand by McLaren when they keep pulling stunts like this.
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Best way for Hamilton to respond to the crisis is to go out and win the championship. Whatever happens he needs to get over it, take any punishment on the chin and keep himself focused.
Button and Hamilton fighting it out for the title, thats what we want.
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Although Hamilton has made a public apology for his mistake I can see no reason why he has not been removed from his post along with Ryan. At the end of the day Hamilton is not a silly child. He is a grown man with his own mind, he is responsible for his own actions as much as Ryan is and should be held just as accountable. Hamilton would of been fully aware that he was being asked to lie to the stewards, and would also have been fully aware that his actions in doing so were dubious at best. Hamilton, as a grown man rather than a child, is fully capable of standing up for himself and saying that what he is being asked to do is wrong. In not doing this he made himself as guilty as Ryan, Mclaren should recognise this fact.
Obviously the loss of Hamilton as a driver would be a serious blow to Mclaren, however in retaining his services following the very public dismissal of Ryan they are potentially showing themselves to be both hypocritical and driven more by commercial values than moral ones. This could be potentially long term considerably more damaging to this great team than the short term loss of a driver.
I do not wish any ill to Hamilton, however I do not feel that Mclaren can or should make an example of Ryan whilst appearing to present the view that Hamilton had no real part to play in this affair. To my mind Hamilton is a responsible as Ryan and should be treated in the same manner. He has commited an act of gross misconduct and is by anyones definition in serious breach of his contract having brought the company he represents into serious disrepute. I would find it hard to believe that his contract allows this sort of conduct to go on.
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MarkGrange - which is it?
"I do not wish any ill to Hamilton"
"Although Hamilton has made a public apology for his mistake I can see no reason why he has not been removed from his post along with Ryan"
I think you are naive in the extreme if you seriously think Hamilton can go against the wishes of the sporting director of McLaren. He will obviously bow to his experience. Not to do so he would think of as being disrespectful.
I am sorry but hypocritical posts like yours and the dickler really wind me up.
You DO wish to do Hamilton harm (or at least his career) and you are blowing the incident out of all proportion. Is Schumacher/Hill/Mansell ramming an opponent off the track not deliberately bringing the sport into disrepute? You and others like you are showing shocking bias and it is just not right.
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McLaren made a mistake, not good, but these things happen unfortunately. The whole world knows about it, damage has been done ... so let's carry on shall we !
Wasn't there a "rule" years back stipulating there was only one-way-communication allowed (I cannot remember whether it was car to pit or the other way around). What happened to that rule ?
McLaren will remain a major force in F1 and it is not on to judge a whole organization by the action of a single person (who is no longer there as a result of it).
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MarkGrange - which is it?
"I do not wish any ill to Hamilton"
"Although Hamilton has made a public apology for his mistake I can see no reason why he has not been removed from his post along with Ryan"
I think you are naive in the extreme if you seriously think Hamilton can go against the wishes of the sporting director of McLaren. He will obviously bow to his experience. Not to do so he would think of as being disrespectful.
I am sorry but hypocritical posts like yours and the dickler really wind me up.
You DO wish to do Hamilton harm (or at least his career) and you are blowing the incident out of all proportion. Is Schumacher/Hill/Mansell ramming an opponent off the track not deliberately bringing the sport into disrepute? You and others like you are showing shocking bias and it is just not right.
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PureSporter:-"McLaren will remain a major force in F1 and it is not on to judge a whole organization by the action of a single person (who is no longer there as a result of it)."
Um, sorry but I think as the dust settles we can see that McLaren are being invited to the hearing on 29 April because they "The Team" continued with the same incorrect story several days after the original incident at the second hearing. Not only that but despite being played the radio recording, which we've all heard now, they still insisted they didn't tell Lewis to let Trulli by.
You surely don't believe that none of the management structure of McLaren other than Ryan and Hamilton discussed the line to be taken at the second hearing?
It really isn't about the incident on track, it's about the way McLaren wrongly portrayed it afterwards, particullarly at the second hearing in Malaysia.
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There is nothing so certain to get me hopping mad is the sloopy thinking of a lot of people on this site who seem to be blaming Hamilton for what happened in the Aussie Grand Prix.Without appearing to be patronising let take thinking very slowly here. If you work for an important organisation of boss and he gives you a direct order to do or say something which is work related, then you do it without question or risk getting the sack or denied promotion of advancement in the company.The simple fat is that Lewis Hamilton was given what he had to say to the stewards by Ryan and other senior members of the Mclaren team. HE WAS IN AN IMPOSSIBLE POSITION AND COULD NOT DISOBEY ORDERS AND RISK UPSETING THE TEAM. WHAT WOULD YOU DO IF YOUR BOSS GAVE YOU AN ORDER FOR SOMETHING WORK RELATED.IF YOUR HONEST, I REALLY DOUBT IF YOU WOULD SAY NO. PLEASE THINK THINGS THROUGH PEOPLE BECAUSE I HATE SLOPPY THINKERS.
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178. At 12:38pm on 08 Apr 2009, dean008 wrote:
There is nothing so certain to get me hopping mad is the sloopy thinking of a lot of people on this site who seem to be blaming Hamilton for what happened in the Aussie Grand Prix.Without appearing to be patronising let take thinking very slowly here. If you work for an important organisation of boss and he gives you a direct order to do or say something which is work related, then you do it without question or risk getting the sack or denied promotion of advancement in the company
NO Dean re-think you stance and you can push yourself through a time machine of say 20 years and some life experience.... your sentiment and your judjment belongs to you ... there will come a time that your organisation you belong to fails and you will wnat to dis-associate yourself from it...the Jackie Stewarts and Jim Clarks drove their companies and so does Valentino Rossi ... it is not the other way round... and so it is the same in companies you do not buckle to power if it is foolish and ignorant...
The English were the first to coin the phrase TO HAVE BACK-BONE ..... so no buckling under orders and the yes sir no sir thing ... like the false cashiers in shops that say to you yes sir no sir and just want your money and actually think nothing of you ... this is all Americanism and we are already seeing how it fails...
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There are a couple of things which seem to be getting lost in the mist here. Firstly the current controversy surrounding McLaren-Mercedes has nothing to do with what happened on the track and everything to do with the fact they deliberately and continually 'misled' the stewards. Both McLaren-Mercedes and Hamilton gave the same incorrect information on a number of occasions to the stewards and knew they were doing so and knew that it was having a severely bad effect on Toyota and Trulli. Which ever way you look at it it is not sporting behaviour and the stewards and the FIA are right to deal with it because if they do not they run the risk of it being seen as acceptable behaviour.
Secondly, the argument that Hamilton could not baulk at doing what the team told him does not stand up to examination. He knew that the information they were giving was incorrect. The 'I was only following orders' defence has been widely view as unacceptable in pretty well all walks of life for a long long time now. For Hamilton, who publicly told Ron Dennis where to get off when he was given instructions he did not like, to try to use this defence beggars belief.
Thirdly, when do we get the other guy's version of events? Never?
Failure to stamp out this kind of behaviour would be the equivalent of cycling not taking doping seriously and would further seriously harm a sport which many people already have question marks over. So for the future of the sport lets hope that both Hamilton and McLaren are dealt with in a way that sends an unequivocal message that this kind of behaviour has no place in the sport. Only in that way can we get back to what we all want to see - fairly contested races.
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Well im going to leave this site because i just find there are too many people in need of a basic education.Its is quite clear to most logical people in any firm or organisation that if they are given an order to do something work related, they would normally do it.This is a fact that you would have to be very ignorant to disagree with, becuase the chances are that you obey order everyday at your place of work.Hamiltion was advise and given what to say by RYAN and other senior members of the
Mclaren team.Though hamilton has his own mind, he is only 24 and new to F1 and socould no more be expected exercise any sort of influence over seniro manangements decisons that anyone would if they have only been two years in your place of work. HAMILTOM HAD TO DO WNAT HE WAS ORDER DO DO , OR RISK BAD FEEING towards him from his team.HE WAS PUT IN AN IMPOSSIBLE POSITION.IM WILLING TO BET THAT IN REAL LIFE MOST OF YOU WHO ARE READING THIS DO NOT SAY NO WHEN YOUR BOSSES GIVE YOU A DIRECT ORDER FOR SOMETHING THATS WORK RELATED. HAMILTION IS NO DIFFERENT
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Well im going to leave this site because i just find there are too many people in need of a basic education.Its is quite clear to most logical people in any firm or organisation, that if they are given an order to do something work related, they would normally do it.This is a fact that you would have to be very ignorant to disagree with, because the chances are that you obey orders everyday at your place of work.Hamiltion was advised and given what to say by RYAN and other senior members of the
Mclaren team.Though Hamilton has his own mind, he is only 24 and new to F1 and so could no more be expected to exercise any sort of influence over senior manangements' decisons that anyone would if they have only been two years in their place of work. HAMILTOM HAD TO DO WHATT HE WAS ORDERED TO DO , OR RISK BAD FEEING towards him from his team.
HE WAS PUT IN AN IMPOSSIBLE POSITION.IM WILLING TO BET THAT IN REAL LIFE MOST OF YOU WHO ARE READING THIS DO NOT SAY NO WHEN YOUR BOSS GIVE YOU A DIRECT ORDER FOR SOMETHING THATS WORK RELATED. HAMILTION IS NO DIFFERENT TO YOU, SO YOU SHOULD NOT EXPECT HIM TO TAKE THE BLAME.
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The facts are Lewis and Dave Ryan lied initially on the spur of the moment with regards to the instructions given to Lewis. We have all lied and especially on the spur of the moment. For the media to continue harping on about, 'Lewis reputation is tarnished forever' or 'his career is tainted' is wrong. If that was the case, then the whole human race wouldn't stand a chance.
It can only show that for his status, he is also human and when a mistake is made, it is how you resolve that mistake that people should judge you on. Lewis handled himself with great dignity and showed genuine remorse and embarrassment in his press conference. Unless Dave Ryan decided to walk, dismissing such a key figure only increases the sense of paranoia within the Mclaren organisation and also their paranoid relationship with the FIA, stewards, Mosley et al not to mention the huge loss in leadership of Mr. Ryan. Another 'error of judgement' by Mclaren? Time will tell.
However, the most unfortunate part of this incident is that Mclaren through Dave and Lewis had the opportunity to withdraw their lies when questioned again prior to the Malaysian race. After the dust had settled after the Australian race, the fact that they both stuck to their own version of events when questioned again is probably seen as a bigger sin rather than the initial denials. There is a point that Eddie Jordan brought up and that was the initial decision to demote Trulli from third was not subject to appeal. If a decision was made in a democratic law court, a judgement would stand unless an appeal is made. Why should a sport on such a grand scale with high stakes be any different?
Toyota made it clear they were not going to appeal, for the sake of the sport, would a line be best drawn under here?
Why did the stewards feel it was necessary to raise this issue again whilst the initial judgment had passed ?
For the time being, the sport of F1 is safe. Its integrity has been tarnished for a long time now, but barring economic crisis or extreme mis-management, it will always draw the punters. As long as there is stuff to write about off the track as well as on it will only generate more interest in the sport, rightly or wrongly, it is how it works therefore increasing the revenue for Mr. Ecclestones business providing he can get the race start times correct.
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Dean008-"Well im going to leave this site because i just find there are too many people in need of a basic education..."
Charming, coming from someone who can't spell or use punctuation.
The I was only following orders defence has been an indefensible argument since the Nuremberg trials for heavens sake.
As for leaving, I doubt many will notice or care and then you will have no opinion at all. Stick around, you might learn something.
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Are you telling me in the all the years F1 Has been going no other team/driver has been economical with the truth. Stewards deciding the positions, what chance has HL got? I think I will not bother watching F1 any more as you have to wait a few days for the result ( just in case).
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dean at 24 only genius can be world champion ... that is the nature of F1 ... but since F1 is a money game GENIUS CHAMP sometimes also FOOL ! please no leave site ... this is de life....
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DAVE RYAN WAS SACKED BECAUSE HE WAS COMPLETELY TO BLAME IMO!IF LEWIS WAS JUST AS MUCH TO BLAME OR MORE RYAN WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN SACKED AND THE TEAM WOULD HAVE COME DOWN MUCH HARDER ON LEWIS!!
AND WHY DO PPL KEEP COMPARING LEWIS TO SCHUMACHER,,GIVE THE BOY A CHANCE,HES ONLY JUST GOT STARTED.
WE ALL LIE,AND IF YOU SAY YOU DONT THEN YOUR A LIAR,
I BELIEVE WHAT LEWIS HAS SAID AND SO I WILL STAND BY MY FELLOW BRIT.
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I happened to HEAR the radio chat before seeing any video footage. My impression was that Lewis Hamilton was desperately trying to get that extra point. It was only later that I was aware of the 'lying' scandal.
I don't really think that Lewis Hamiton has a leg to stand on. He knew the facts, and he was given more than one chance to put right any misunderstanding. "I was misled by the team" is frankly a pitiful thing to come out and say in mitigation of HIS actions. He knew it was a lie, and obviously had no regard for Jarno Trulli, another man trying to do HIS job as best he could on the day. The FIA charge is bringing the sport into disrepute. That sums it all up perfectly. The punishment should be swift and sure, for both team and driver.
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LTBFAUH - WE ALL LIE,AND IF YOU SAY YOU DONT THEN YOUR A LIAR,
I BELIEVE WHAT LEWIS HAS SAID AND SO I WILL STAND BY MY FELLOW BRIT.
Fellow Brit, when many years ago it was the turn of fellow men not to lie, they still contrived and intervened in wars so that all of us today have to live with the consequences. Lying is an art of the powerful and when used well gives short term fantastic results ... when on the other hand you base yourself on the modesty of the mantle that nature gave us then the choice to lie is not so impulsive ... it depends from what stance you lie.... the premise is that lying is forgivable if your are structured in the simplicity of your nature but when you contrive it based on the power that you are surrounded by ..... then lying has very dire consequences.... to me these situations are a joke and they are a constant reminder of the complications that humans contrive.
There were many drivers I respected ... but very few that are in the arena today.
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I think that although Lewis Hamilton is possible one of F1´s most talented young drivers he has shown in this incident that he is still a very young and imature person who has a tremendos amount to learn about how to conduct yourself at this level of motor sport !
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BOSTIN 5 WROTE THIS CRAP."The I was only following orders defence has been an indefensible argument since the Nuremberg trials for heavens sake.
MY REPLY:Since when does the trial of Nazis Leaders remotely comparable to obeying orders in a formula one setting.Mate, im not even going to dignify your reply by replying to it further, as its complete crap, and you know it is.
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I always thought Lewis Hamilton was a a product of some genetic make up similar to Alonso and added to that a pandering father, tons of whimpish friends at parties and a few rich bosses. oh I wish for a scoundrel a mongrel to take to these tracks and treat the media with disdain. a worthy gladiator at a victor's game!
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I think this is quite a simple situation. McLaren lied and were caught because they are under enhanced scrutiny sine spygate. I am sure that many other teams lied to the officials before, and did much worse, but were not caught. After all F1 racing is a business in addition to a sport. And, there is nothing holy about that! F1 is not the Vatican Inc. and Mosley and Ecclestone are neither the Pope. My question though is that the situation that caused this scandal has not been addressed in the press to the best of my knowledge. That is, what is the FIA rule about passing under the safety car if a car in front goes off? Personally I think Hamilton should not have let Trulli through.
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Johnathan is a radio broadcaster and it shows. he is by far the weekest link in the Formula one presentation team. The main problem is he seems to just state the obvious, you forget we can see it on the screen its not radio. Full credit to him for his statistics, he has done his homework on quotes but in terms of live time comments I just wish he wous be quiet and let Martin say what needs to be said. maybe it would be better if he did more team interviews or chats with drivers, I am sure he would be good at that. But his technicals are weak, I am sure martin just shrinks, into his microphone at times. its a shame, maybe he will get better with time, sorry I can't be more positive. But it is the ony thing that spoils the presentation. I have followed f1 for 20 years now...all round the world.
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Thanks OzzieAlan, exactly my own thoughts on JL. I've followed F1 for over 50 years and can't stand the man! Maybe the BBC could give us an interactive ambient sound track option (i.e. no commentator) as most of us can see or read everything Jonathan says and his prattle really gets in the way of enjoying the action.
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So, Ecclestone has got his man, Ron Dennis, out of F1. Was this behind the blown-up mess at the Australian GP? I always suspected there were background politics...
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