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I'm extremely disappointed that you didn't do the Thought for the Day issue justice on this week's show, again.
The iPM editor Ruper Allman apologised on your own site this week:
"On the criticism regarding how the issue was treated on the radio - we should have done more to address some of the specific arguments. We didn't and that was a mistake. Sorry."
He also said:
"We have been speaking to the main players in the debate to see if they will engage with the comments made here and on the programme. Calls have been made."
Can we assume the calls were not answered?
You ask for suggestions on how to cover this subject properly. The obvious answer is to ask Mr Damazer to defend his illogical statement, to face some of the questions raised in the blog and to expose Thought for the Day to rational journalistic scrutiny. What is he afraid of?
I can only assume you have been instructed from above to let this lie. I'm not sure I can bring myself to listen to your show any more as its claim to be 'interactive' is clearly bogus and the programme lacks integrity.
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You are asking for contributors to the debate about why Thought for the Day is such an embarrassment to the Today programme, and why the BBC should either include non-religious moralists or scrap the platitudinous slot altogether. Might I suggest a three-cornered debate between Jonathan Bartley, Laurie Taylor and Mark Damazer?
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Judging by the number of comments - over 450 - there exists considerable ongoing interest in Mark Damazer's apologia for "Thought for the Day" being continued in its present form.
An interview, or round table discussion, including Mark Damazer, would provide a fascinating insight and compelling listening.
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The Great Baked Bean Scandal or, What Is This Rubbish They Are Feeding Us About Inflation?
I'm reading and hearing a great deal in the news recently about the fact that inflation is reducing, and that there may even be negative inflation. So, can someone please tell me how this is measured, and how it relates to the day-to-day cost of living? I'm a pensioner, whose income has been seriously reduced by the reduction in interest rates, so I've been doing quite a bit of price checking recently, and I've discovered the really insidious and sneaky way that food retailers are reducing their costs and increasing their margins is not by increasing their prices, (although they're doing that as well,) but by DECREASING the amounts. Iceland have been doing it for a while - a £5 pack of bacon used to contain 40 rashers, then it went to 36 and now it's 32, their pork pies were 8 for £1 now it's 6, but at least that is obvious. They show the contents clearly on the front of the pack. However today, quite by accident, I discovered that Lidl, the shop of choice for a lot of low income people, are being really sneaky. We came home lunchtime and wanted something quick and easy, baked beans on toast is always a good choice! When I put the beans on the toast something didn't seem right - there was too much liquid and not enough beans! Being the sort of person I am, I gave my husband his usual helping of beans, and I had to be content with some rather soggy toast with a few beans floating sadly in the middle. After lunch I checked the label on the tin, (which I purchased yesterday), against one I had bought a few weeks ago. Sure enough the amount of actual beans in the tin had reduced from 49% to 40% - a reduction of almost 20%! Adding this to the fact that the actual cost per tin had risen by another 20%, makes me ask again - how do they calculate inflation?
Any more examples out there??
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paulwanadoo (Comment 1)
The moderators have kept you on the naughty step now for four and a half hours! You must have made an unflattering remark about Mr Damazer.
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Yes, I appear to be on the naughty step by command of the ThoughtFTD Police.
My comment is also posted here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/ipm/2009/01/show_notes_jobs_football_and_t.shtml#commentsanchor
Dear 'moderator' what rule did I break?
iPM are desperatly hoping this issue will go away. I think not.
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I think, this week, you should have a debate on whether Thought for the Day's exclusion of a significant portion of society is discriminatory and unacceptable by a public broadcaster in 2009.
I'm extremely disappointed that you didn't do the Thought for the Day issue justice on this week's show, again.
The iPM editor Ruper Allman apologised on your own site this week:
"On the criticism regarding how the issue was treated on the radio - we should have done more to address some of the specific arguments. We didn't and that was a mistake. Sorry."
He also said:
"We have been speaking to the main players in the debate to see if they will engage with the comments made here and on the programme. Calls have been made."
Can we assume the calls were not answered?
You ask for suggestions on how to cover this subject properly. The obvious answer is to ask Mr Damazer to defend his illogical statement, to face some of the questions raised in the blog and to expose Thought for the Day to rational journalistic scrutiny. What is he afraid of?
I can only assume you have been instructed from above to let this lie. I'm not sure I can bring myself to listen to your show any more as its claim to be 'interactive' is clearly bogus and the programme lacks integrity.
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The debate about TFTD has been all one-sided so far.
We've posted over 400 comments and you, the BBC, have posted one. That's not very interactive is it?
How about a slot explaining exactly how the i in iPM stands for interactive, using the TFTD story as an example?
The iPM editor says "We have been speaking to the main players in the debate to see if they will engage with the comments made here and on the programme."
Who would these main players be? I haven't seen anyone representing the BBC actually get involved in our debate. That is half the problem.
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I'm currently dancing with cancer and although my treatment has been brilliant - fast, informative, efficient and compassionate - I'm amazed that no-one has suggested that attitude or state of mind could be instrumental in recovery or survival. I think this is worth investigating as I am using my mind as my main tool for recovery (along with surgery, chemotherapy, radiotherapy, herceptin, and the rest...)
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Just listened to the ipm podcast. Well done to Big Sis for provoking some memories - though I think I was a little on the young side to appreciate it all. :-)
The ipm podcast is so easy to use - especially for non techy people.
Here is a link ;-)
http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/radio4/ipm/ipm_20090117-1700b.mp3
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Interactive - Mr Damazer?
I doubt it.
This from today's "Independent":
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/tv-radio/is-radio-4-too-posh-mark-damazer-serves-up-his-recipe-for-change-1366158.html
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Hi - In the debate about sustainable energy the measures proposed by our elected representatives (of all countries) do not come even close to scratching the surface of the problem.
I've just come across a great free book about Sustainable Energy. Download free from http://www.withouthotair.com/. Written by a Cambridge Professor, David JC MacKay. It is unique - in my experience - by measuring the contributions of, say, wind power, against the actual size of the problem.
Example - The London Array proposed windfarm. Quote - "The London Array offshore wind farm will make a crucial contribution to the UK's renewable energy targets." - James Smith Chairman of Shell UK. MacKay estimates the UK's current energy consumption as 195Kwh/person per day. Shallow Offshore wind (like the London Array) might produce 16Kwh/person per day if we covered a sea area two thirds the size of Wales. This would be an area equivalent to a 4Km band round the ENTIRE coastline of the country to produce less than one tenth of our energy needs.
I have nothing specific against wind power, but a few wind farms will not solve the problem.
Our elected representatives are talking about (not actually doing) small (tens of percent) changes over tens of years. The current commitment of 60% by 2050 sounds, and is radical. It's also inadequate. MacKay argues that the 2050 number should be about 85% - and we need to have started NOW.
Our elected representatives are too concerned with not being re-elected at the next election and not enough concerned with the truly long term problems.
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9
Dwc, I'm very sorry to hear of your condition.
You say
"...I'm amazed that no-one has suggested that attitude or state of mind could be instrumental in recovery or survival. I think this is worth investigating"
Dwc, There's been enormous research over many years on the issue you raise.
Data is available on the web, from the NHS, from Cancer Charities (world-wide) etc. etc.
Also, consider looking, for example, at the Woman's Hour Web-site. WH are superb on cancer types and treatment and the cover men as well. Their prgramme archives are wonderful!
There are also many support groups that give patients specific help and encouragement if they should feel depressed and maybe negative at any time.
Any Oncologist/specialist Cancer Care Nurse should be able to "point" a patient in the right direction.
Never give up.
Make a very speedy recovery.
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I would be interested to know if Radio 4 were planning to enter into any kind of meaningful discussion concerning the recent comments about Thought for the Day?
The recent statement made by Mark Damazer did not reassure me or provide much in the way of explanation. It would appear that in his view most of the content of the Today program except TftD consists of non religious moral editorial notwithstanding Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor’s recent appearance as guest editor and interviewer on matters of political controversy such as euthanasia.
I would like to know why TftD systematically and as a matter of policy excludes contributors because of their beliefs. It seems indefensible, to me, to prevent somebody from speaking on public radio based on their religious beliefs, or lack thereof and how this is permitted under the BBC’s own editorial guidelines is a complete mystery.
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First Baby P., then 7 children in Doncaster, and now 8 children in Birmingham. Isn't it time to recognise that local councils aren't the right organisations to be responsible for protecting children?
I don't know why they're so bad at it. Maybe they see this service as one where it's easy to cut budgets - kids don't vote after all. Or maybe they just don't have the management skills to be able to run this service. Whatever it is, how many times do they have to demonstrate that they're not "fit for purpose" before the responsibility is taken from them?
Wouldn't it be better to have a central government body responsible for child protection?
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Thanks Piper. I'm doing really well right now though my hair is coming out in fistfuls!
What you say kind of reinforces my point - the research is there, the experience is there, but the NHS approach is so very medically orientated with no real support or suggestion that state of mind can help. Given the research on the power of meditiation, choosing attitude, visualisation etc I am amazed that this is not used by the NHS - apart from anything else it would probably save a fortune!
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The "American Dream"
Just how did it become the World's Financial Nightmare..?
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Again, I am very much in support of a full and frank debate about TftD. Given the shear volume of posts, infact far more than any other story to date and also I gather more than every post in December put together, you really ought to dedicate a full 1/2hour programme on the topic. Only then will you go some way to regain iPM's, and Radio 4's credibility.
Nothing less than Mr Damazar himself defending his position plus a round table discussion will be needed.
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Am I right in thinking that the i in iPM stands for interactive? In that case it seems to be a misnomer. At the time of writing there have been 486 posts about Thought for the Day, all but about a dozen demanding that Mark Damazer emerge from his bunker to explain his refusal to contemplate the possibility that the supposed correlation between religion and ethics has no justification.
Where is the interactivity in that?
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May I thank you for continuing to recognise the interest in the Thought for the Day subject, and wishing to engage with your audience in how to best cover the subject.
I agree with #2 johnnyess that a three-cornered debate would be productive. I recognise this would extend beyond the normal time you devote to a subject but extended time is the only way to give the subject justice.
I think it is appalling that Mark Damazer has given a statement to the iPM blog and has presumably since refused to engage with its consequences. Did he of all people not understand the format with which he was engaging?
Either way, I look forward to constructive progress on this issue.
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Perhaps you good people at iPM might be interested in looking further into what appears to be the News Media's [also including the BBC - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7836032.stm ] insistence that people in their 50s are 'elderly'?
Thanks
Old Reprobate [57 1/2]
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Further to my previous post, I note that someone has 'had words' and that the word 'elderly' has now been removed from the story. This, however, in no way invalidates my previous post.
Thanks
Old Reprobate [from a turbo zimmer]
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Again, many thanks for these suggestions and the others we receive via email. ( ipm at bbc dot co dot uk )
Couple of updates:
This week's iPM will be the last for a few weeks that you can hear at 5.30 on Saturday.
As of next week, the programme will be shorter and broadcast earlier.
( please do subscribe to the podcast, unless you are a very, very early riser )
As ever, the blog is always open for business, your ideas and suggestions.
Come March, we'll be back at 5.30 as usual.
We are following up on both unemployment this week, food fads and the debate over TFTD.
For obvious reasons, redundancy is a sensitive subject. It's one thing to put something up on the blog - but another to go public on national radio.
But we are working on some leads.
For those who want to hear more about TFTD - a few things.
No, we have not been sat on by anyone. We haven't - honest.
Yes, we hope to do more - but with those who can engage with some of the specific comments and arguments raised. We'll chase those we put calls out to last week and try some new names too.
Thanks,
Rupert
( iPM Ed )
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Sorry to bang on but... update... the Wear area front page [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/wear/default.stm] is still carrying the original splash:
"Masked robbers wielding baseball bats break into an elderly man's home in County Durham and tie him up. "
There... I knew I wasn't dreaming it [that's the problem with being elderly!!!
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eighty-eight (15) - I am a carer in one of the other 8 authorities judged least good by OFSTED ... and I'd say it's a combination of factors: constant budget squeezes - so demoralised staff ... but most of all, lack of vision (especially at the top). Faced with a crisis, no one asks 'What is the best thing for this child?' They ask: 'What does it say in the rule book?', constantly anxious to cover their own backs. Given that the rule book is an increasingly unwieldy creaking structure onto which the govt bolts a new guideline every other day, this approach is utterly useless. This is the situation that allows Shoesmith to say 'Yes, I know a child died, but my staff did really well.'
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@23
Rupert,
Glad to hear there will be some further debate on TftD it is well overdue.
The subject of unemployment also sounds like one that could do with an airing, although I do hope that all sections of the community will be allowed to take part.
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Devastating questions have been raised about TFTD by IPM listeners. There is only one more week of IPM left in the current series, and I hope these devastating questions will be answered. If Mark Damazar cannot work on a Saturday, I look forward to listening to some other senior figure from the BBC answering in his stead.
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Dear Mr Allman
Thanks for the update. There are now over 500 comments on the TFTD strand:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/ipm/2009/01/thought_for_the_day_a_genuinel.shtml#comments
Congratulations - you have a hit on your hands.
I'm sure many people will join me in being pleased that you intend to cover the issue again this weekend.
As you say, there are many specific points and comments raised. Having looked through them extensively, I'd say that the recurring theme is that the BBC's refusal to allow secular/humanist/atheist voices in the TFTD strand is discrimination which contradicts the BBC's Guidelines on Editorial Impartiality.
Many listeners are annoyed that Mr Damazer posted a statement which people find hard to accept. None of the legitimate questions to Mr Damazer's statement, raised on this forum, have yet been answered.
The best way to move this forward is, surely, to ivite Mr Damazer onto the show to be questioned by Eddie in the usual manner.
If I was in his position, I would welcome that opportunity, given the poor light in which he has been cast extensively on this forum.
If he is invited and declines, then the spotlight shifts from iPM to Mr Damazer himself. If he's not asked then I would have to question, again, the quality of journalism on iPM.
As far as I see it, and trying to see the positive, there's a huge opportunity to get this right this weekend. If you manage it, I will salute you.
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I came across an interesting group on the social networking site Facebook entitled "This Is England Not Poland So F(bomb) Off" I think it could make for a good story, especially considering the comments that it has fetched. Their statements also sway into all other racial groups, whether towards the visible or white minority groups in the English community. Most interesting is their lack of solid facts and their resort to attack at the personal level.
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Given the number of complaints and blog comments on this, could this issue of allowing non religious voices to contribute to TfTD now be forwarded by Mr Damazer to the BBC Trust for discussion ?
Or could you point me to how I can attempt to trigger such a move?
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I have in my possession:
2 plastic Jacobs square containers
1 plastic Celebrations square container
1 tin Cadburys Heroes
3 tins Quality Street
1 tin Cadburys Roses.
I use one Jacobs container for cheese biscuits and one Quality Street tin for sweet biscuits, all the rest are empty and taking up valuable space in my larder. My mother in law also has three going spare and upon discussion with her, I found out that in her youth, in the 1940s/50s you could take the empty tins back to the shop from which you purchased them and trade them in for 1/6d per tin for further use as you could a certain brand of lemonade bottles which I remember.
My husband has got enough tins in his shed to house nuts and bolts etc and the only option I have is to take them to the tip which seems a terrible waste when we are always being encouraged to recycle as much as we can.
What happens to empty sweet tins? Anyone have any ideas for their future?
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Does anyone else out there think we could start a new political party that was not aimed at big business and the self imporance of our own politicians....but would put England and its People first.
Surely the Government we have now is so useless and without any positive leadership, that it immediately gave a handout to the banks and big business when it is the English People that are the mainstay of this country and are the ones really struggling And now....they have got their hand out again for more money.
Businesses and Banks come and go, but the people will always be there and deserve better....
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I know this may sound daft and very simple. All these so call bad loans that have been passed from one bank to the other as so call securties why don't they sit down then find out where they came from then that bank should be made to buy them back. That way we the tax payer will not have to prop up these companies. I don't see the goverment putting there hand in the till to bale out any thing else quite so freely.
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Post 31. Re empty sweet tins. If you have a recycle bin or if there's a recycle bin at your supermarket etc then they can go there. A local primary school or charity shop may be interested.
If the worst comes to the worst and they go in the bin, hopefully the tip will separate the tin out for recycling the metal; many do nowadays.
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I loved your item on Sports Report football results - brought back memories of my husband and son's Saturday afternoon radio ritual. This triggered my idea for a children's book about a football crazy family - 'Billy Boots Brainwave', published by Hamlyn in 1982.
I had the idea of reproducing the giveaway inflections of the reader's voice in print. eg home win:
three....Grimsby Rov
. ers,
one
Hull City,
An away win:
overs, three
Hull Ci one..... Grimsby R
ty,
A draw:
Hull ty, one....... sby Rovers, one
Ci Grim
Hard to reproduce on the computer, but the publishers' printers did it perfectly!
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Sid, 25. If central government believes that it needs a rule book that says anything more than "look after the children in your area", then doesn't that suggest that it too believes that local councils aren't able to protect children properly.
The fact that it's not taking the next logical step and giving the responsibility to an organisation that can provide the care that children need (and fight for the funds needed to do that) suggests that someone, somewhere, is benefiting from the current arrangement. It's not the kids, so who is it?
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Hi all
A suggested question for Mr Damazer on TFTD.
If he wants to keep it to serve believers then do so, but then why not have an equivalent unchallenged atheist slot on Today for balance?
Best Regards
David Lemon
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From jawache, Peterborough
Hi.
The world needs more women in politics. The British house of Commons should be half women. This could be easily achieved as follows. Halve the number of constituencies, making each twice the size of the current ones. Have two lots of candidates in each, one of men and the other of women. Then every voter has a vote for woman and a vote for a man.
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DL1
Couldn't agree more although should the programmes receive equal air-time?
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Maybe only 3 years away? Fantastic!
"Scientists open doors with the power of the mind"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2009/jan/22/home-technology-robots-invention
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I am appalled that the BBC seems to be glossing over it's refusal to air the Gaza appeal by the Disasters Emergency Committee. I may have missed something on the news yesterday, but it doesn't seem to be mentioned anywhere today.
The grounds given seem very spurious; a concern that 'aid might not get through' was clearly as much of a factor in Darfur but the BBC weren't worried there. The D.E.C. is an impartial humanitarian organisation, and even Israel's most fervent supporters must accept that after the assault of the last few weeks has created an urgent need that must be addressed. Also it plays right into the hands of al-Qeada conspiracy nuts who will see at as further evidence of a some Zionist anti-muslim plot. I hope this issue will get the coverage it deserves and this decision will be overturned.
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Hi all
re Shefftim 30
I sent an appeal to the Trust yesterday. If you wish to do the same just google BBC Trust for instructions on how to do it (too long to list here). Would recommend snail mail as online form doesn't give much flexibility.
Re 39 stoatleader
Yes equal time and in Today naturally.
In my appeal to Trust, I have not asked for atheists on TFTD or stopping it, why not let believers enjoy it if they wish. Just that there be an equal unchallenged atheist spot for balance, as with party politcal broadcasts.
Seems to me a more positive approach and avoids charge of militant atheists wanting to ban things
Cheers
David Lemon
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Lots of links on the iPM and PM blogs, for example the one in message 40 above, don't work because someone is adding a spurious "<br />".
Will iPM please investigate and get them to stop?
Sure, you can delete the "<br />" and go to the correct page, but there must be a better way.
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I wish to add my e-voice to the concern over the BBC's decision yesterday to block an appeal for emergency aid to Gaza. To refuse the request on the grounds that, "..the decision was made because of question marks about the delivery of aid in a volatile situation and also to avoid any risk of compromising public confidence in the BBC's impartiality in the context of a news story.." is callous. This was an appeal for help, not votes. How sick.
We can visit the BBC website to see pictures of the devastation in the area. The Today programme, just this morning, ran a terrifying story about the (possible) use of white phosphorous munitions on civilians. The new Israeli presenter on the Today programme has been lightly pressed on this and other matters, but that is all. In fact, as the Stop the War coalition have stated, "We have seen throughout these weeks of barbarism how Israel's spin machine has been indulged by the BBC in particular. We know, as the Guardian reported two weeks ago, that the BBC management instructed its journalists to enable this to happen. The result was Israeli spokespersons given frequent opportunity to justify mass slaughter, including the deaths of
over 400 children."
Can you report please just why this decision was made? If Barack Obama can start the process of transparency in the White House, I think its possible to start the process in White City.
See you tomorrow when I will join the demonstration called for outside your offices.
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re Thought for the Day
I'd like to suggest that the Sunday programme does an item about the professional ethics of the PM programme.
It would have the same locus as the features pages of The Times running stories on whether it was appropriate for the Times sports pages to have a fishing column.
Isn't there something less self-focused, incestuous and self-absorbed that you could be running items on than the content of another BBC programme.
Grow up, and use the licence-payers' money for something important please.
E Wells
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I am really interested in this evening's discussion about accents - I think the main thing is the delivery of the accent eg. E.Mair sounds friendly and accessible - G.Brown sounds boring/K.Clarke sounds fun - D.Cameron sounds plastic/M.Parkinson can obviously evolve - J.Major probably can't!
I am reminded of an occasion when my voice was wound down on a tape recorder and I sounded exactly like M.Thatcher...
Hopefully I have evolved!
Here in Spain my accent is admired by the Spanish as a clear example of English - but this is just to do with projection and theatre stuff - in normal conversation I am a glottle-stopper Londoner!
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www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5568735.ece
and Dame Suzi Leather's comments on 'Any Question?' 23/1/09
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Not so much a desire for a story but the form in which one could be delivered; Eddie in the style of Stanley Unwin?
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I have never before felt so strongly about the BBC to ever write or complain about it, but want now to write to protest about the BBCs arrogant and appalling decision to refuse the Disasters Emergency Committee's request to publicise its humanitarian appeal for Gaza.
After weeks of listening to the biased news reporting by the BBC from the region, including allowing Israeli spokesmen and politicians to justify their slaughter of innocent Palestinians - some of which actions which we now hear may constitute war crimes - we are now told that the BBC doesn't want to jeopardise its 'impartiality'!! How DARE the BBC make a decision like this to hamper the efforts of charities to bring aid to these suffering people with such a spurious reason as this?
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I SO agree with katepang. I have just signed up for BBC blogs specifically to make this point. Aren't victims of war victims just like any other? Surely the rights and wrongs of the war don't matter; people are suffering and need help.
The Americans support Israel; therefore the British Government (of any colour) supports Israel; therefore the BBC supports Israel. It is disgraceful.
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I also have just subscribed specifically to comment on the BBC's failure to support and broadcast the DEC appeal for the victims in Gaza. I tried before to ring the BBC and register my protest, but could not get through, so I guess I am not alone.
I am so angry about this decision. Had the BBC decided to broadcast the appeal I would not have even thought about questioning their impartialilty. Now I do! The Palestinian civilians including children have just endured a terrible attack, which appeared indiscriminate, with nowhere safe to shelter or run to. We have heard appalling accounts from independent agencies such as the UN from inside Gaza, despite journalists being unable to report from there. I do not care about the politics involved at this stage, but I believe the BBC is wrong to deny the DEC's charities the publicity they need to raise money to support these poor people now that this is possible. How could anyone who has seen or heard the devastation caused possibly deny that these people need our help and they need it NOW!
I am really, really angry about this. What is different about this disaster and, say, Darfur, in terms of impartiality? I have not considered the BBC's reporting to be biassed towards Israel and I am impressed that, while one arm of the BBC has made this decision, PM reported the story last night and it is the top headline on the BBC news now. So I hope that people are being made aware of the appeal anyway and will want to contribute.
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What cost the fashion (hair/image)industry?
Garments made in sweatshops,from raw materials grown in ecologically damaging way.
Transported great distances(CO2 ect), to people who don`t need to buy,because of need,but, just to look like others,who they seem to think should influence them.
This starts at the cradle,with a whole sector of industry aimed at convincing people not to be happy as they are ,but to look like some so-called style icon /pop star/actor or somebody.
The psychialogical pressure on particularly the less educated, causes huge financial pressure on them, often causing them to spend an inordinate amount of their income on unneccessary items.
Whilst subsidising this outlay, by buying less nutritional food for themselves and family (obesity/poor concentration at school/low energy ect ).
The binge drinking culture we have in this country stems I believe from these pressures, even, I know some young teenagers who have to get slaughtered to relieve ( if only for a short time), the pressures on them to conform to the so-called `norm`.
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