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What role does the West play on the world stage?

10:24 UK time, Wednesday, 10 November 2010

The British Prime Minister David Cameron said the UK still had "deeply-held concerns" over human rights, in his speech to students in China. Should western countries speak out on the affairs of non-western states?

On Tuesday, Mr Cameron brought up the issue of human rights during talks with the Chinese Prime Minister, Wen Jiabao. Acknowledging British society was "not perfect", the prime minister insisted he was claiming no "moral superiority".

On a visit to the world's largest Muslim nation US President Barack Obama has held up Indonesia as an example of how a developing nation can embrace democracy and diversity. He also emphasised that the US was not at war with Islam.

Analysts say it is Mr Obama's biggest attempt to engage the Islamic world since a speech in Cairo last year.

Should western leaders comment on the affairs of other countries? How influential are their speeches? How important is it for the UK and the US to reach out to non-western countries? Which countries do you think embrace democracy and diversity?

This debate has now closed. Thank you for your comments.

Comments

Page 1 of 5

  • Comment number 1.

    'ere---the west are playing the part of the pauper in the new world order--pantomime.

  • Comment number 2.

    No country embraces democracy, at best they embrace a perverted and limited form of democracy.

    Democracy would be each and every law voted on by the people (not representatives), every national decision also voted on by the people.

    Now show me any country that does that!

  • Comment number 3.

    A bit like a corner shop selling stuff near its sell by date, while watching the new shiny superstores opening up out of town.

    oh and we sell lots or arms to countries that will at some point use them against us.

  • Comment number 4.

    'ere---the west are playing the part of the pauper in the new world order--pantomime.


    ----
    Oh yes those poor residents,of Switzerland,the City of London,the channel Isles ,the Cayman Islands,Monaco and umpteen other tax dodgers havens are really suffering.

    None of the poorest countries in the World are in Europe,North America or Australasia. All have wealth higher than at least 80% of the population of the World

    So get real!

  • Comment number 5.

    The West developed its value system, gradually, over thousands of years.

    It is arrogant and unrealistic to expect other societies to adopt those values overnight, or even at all.

    Chinese society should and will follow its own road, personally, I think given time the Human Rights situation probably will improve as more Chinese people start to demand more freedoms.

    But western pressure will not speed up that change, and may, if the Chinese Government perceives us as trying to undermine their sovereignty, actually be damaging to such social change in the long run.

  • Comment number 6.

    Pot calling the kettle black - rendition flights for example; invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan both illegal or has he forgotten. Complicity in torture...

  • Comment number 7.

    When are we just going to keep our nose out of other countys business and adopt a policy of we won't tell you how to live so don't tell us either.
    That is of course unless we feel we don't have enough wars to prosecute just now?

  • Comment number 8.

    It's a fundemental problem with Westerners and Americans in particular to believe that their way is the only right way. It's so simplistic it's embarrassing.

    Of course when you are the richest nations in the world everybody listens but what happens when you are not.

  • Comment number 9.

    It's OK for us to sell China our Pigs But we should really keep our Snot out of China's affairs and politics ..

    Oh Guess what happens to corrupt officials and politicians in China then? Or is that solution the real issue Here , Suppose our politicians have to kick up a fuss just in case China's solution catches on in the UK

  • Comment number 10.

    It is wrong to think that misfortunes come from the east or from the west; they originate within one's own mind. Therefore, it is foolish to guard against misfortunes from the external world and leave the inner mind uncontrolled.

  • Comment number 11.

    the west used to want cheap labour and materials or to buy cheap imports while exporting expensive weapons.

    tricky now that the masses are getting a bit richer, they wil reach a point where they will no longer make trainers etc for nothing. Good old business will target the emerging markets with the goods being made pretty well anywhere ecept the west!

    just ask "Sir" James Dyson.

  • Comment number 12.

    We will recover in the next few years and become strong again.
    Unfortunately the far east (China in particular) have a strong start as they are powering up right now.
    Sad to say we will never enjoy the position of the being in the top three ever again.
    I have a strong feeling that the USA will go down the same route which, believe me they will not accept as a nation.
    So it will be prepare yourselves for India and China, still there food is great.

  • Comment number 13.

    while I remember... hilarious listening to the western governments pontificating about human rights line, If I was a Chinese minister I would point out that western human rights have been extended to all manor of criminals, you wouldnt get that in china would you.

    China will take its time.

  • Comment number 14.

    Before he goes to China - what about human rights in the UK, that have been eroded. Labour changed a lot of laws, which the tory government have not rushed to undo. China's record on human rights are terrible, but our government have brought in rules and laws, which given time, will equal if not surpass their record.

  • Comment number 15.

    The West is in economic stagnation, India and China are economic giants in the making.Where in the past the US and Britain would have flexed their military muscles to intimidate the rest of the world they increasingly have to use diplomacy because they no longer have the best cards in the deck. Not only are India and China economic powerhouses in the making they also have nuclear weapons and the West dare not intimidate them like they intimidated Iraq and more recently, Iran.

    The fact that India is perhaps on the verge of entry to a permanent seat on the Security Council speaks volumes.

    Changed days for the West and hopefully when India does gain a place on the Security Council, they, China and Russia will provide the counterbalance to Western dominance and imperialism.

    The shoe will very soon be on the other foot and the bullies will have had their day.

  • Comment number 16.

    2. At 1:15pm on 10 Nov 2010, Dave wrote:
    No country embraces democracy, at best they embrace a perverted and limited form of democracy.

    Democracy would be each and every law voted on by the people (not representatives), every national decision also voted on by the people.

    Now show me any country that does that!

    --------

    Ancient Athens had a go.

    It did'nt really work out that well. Turns out that the people of ancient Athens were a beligerant lot determined, at least initially to spread democracy in other countries via violent threats and actions, which worked for a while, Athens created its own empire of democratic states (each ultimately under Athenian rule of course).

    It all went pear shaped when the Greek cities turned against their new masters and the democratic experiment ended when after a bad of bad decisions in the Athenian assembly they were assimilated into the post-Alexander Macedonian empire.

    The moral of the story is two fold- firstly you can't force people to embrace democracy and secondly a pure citizen run state is every bit as capable of making bad, and ultimately self-destructive decisions as one run by a king or dictator.

  • Comment number 17.

    Western leaders intefering in the affairs of other nations. Brings back memories of the early 1990s. Cameron should beware. His activities of late have stripped this country from defending itself - never mind embarking on ill advised foreign ventures. Look whats happened to puppet Bliar, cowardly Clown and other alleged war criminals.

  • Comment number 18.

    2. At 1:15pm on 10 Nov 2010, Dave wrote:

    No country embraces democracy, at best they embrace a perverted and limited form of democracy.

    Democracy would be each and every law voted on by the people (not representatives), every national decision also voted on by the people.

    Now show me any country that does that!


    ---------------

    No one does that because the average person has no idea what they would be voting on. There's a Churchill quote something along the lines of 'The biggest argument against democracy is a 5 minute chat with the average voter'.

  • Comment number 19.

    - Breakdown of family values,
    - Low reproduction rates and aging population,
    - Loss of social/national identity,
    - Immense glorification of hedonism,
    - Total indifference (perhaps, slight dislike of) to positive sciences and academic excellence/competition,
    - Dependence on welfare state and the assumption that the country owes everyone a decent job, with decent wages, with decent homes. Good ideals, but believeing that the country owes these to her citizens.

    The West has to deal with the problems listed above. The Western civilisation is in steep decline. It will take some time before the rock bottom becomes visible to everyone. If it can't sort out these issues, the West does not have much role to play in the world stage.

  • Comment number 20.

    Why does UK media refer to "the West"? West of what? Is Belarus in the West? Jamaica? Just the Nato countries?

    Why don't we have an article setting out what "the West" means and defining it, rather than using it as a lazy generalisation?

  • Comment number 21.

    Forgive me if Im wrong but did not David Cameron at one point discuss Britain's removal from the European Human rights convention?

    And he is telling the Chinese about rights while attacking the rights of people back home!!

    Is Britain best placed for this sort of discussion. Any Leader should corner Cameron over this one.

    The Chinese do bad things in the same way Cameron is planning bad things....so his rich friends dont pay a penny.


    Sounds as if Britain is taking the moral high ground it no longer has anymore in world affairs. Eton toffs of course still think they rule the waves while our defence is hammered....again so the Rich dont have to worry or pay a buck.

  • Comment number 22.

    Acknowledging British society was "not perfect", the prime minister insisted he was claiming no "moral superiority".

    He might not have the right to. But those of us who oppose doing business with regimes as oppressive as China's are quite entitled to.

  • Comment number 23.

    The Chinese are slowly but surely taking over a huge amount of the world trade. They are not going to let the west tell them what to do and we all know that. Cameron was forced into saying something (anything) about human rights to save face. In the end they call all the shots.

  • Comment number 24.

    .... like we are getting it right, last i looked we were getting it all wrong,,

    maybe we should be looking at hunter gatherer tribal systems that have been going millions of years longer than ours has instead of inflicting ours elsewhere..

  • Comment number 25.

    I have no doubt that the "rich nations are the baddies" will have a field day over this topic, we have already seen comments about the wealth of Europe,North America or Australasia. I seem to remember a comment about the UK giving far more to a disaster fund that other nations. Well if we do that then I believe we have every right to comment on the failings of others. Be honest we are constantly told by certain other nations about our failings in the past so as far as I and a vast majority of others (probably far too busy working to be on here) are concerned that gives us every right to pass comment on others.
    I genuinely wonder why some people loathe this country and its system of government so much stay why not go somewhere that shares your views.

  • Comment number 26.

    Who's to say we have got it right with Human Rights?

    Here we seem to have taken it to ridiculous extremes, and many of us would like to see it pared down substantially.

  • Comment number 27.

    Let me see
    • Slavery
    • Ruling, Killing and taxing so that people will not have money eat die
    • WWI
    • WWII
    • Creation of UN
    • Not obeying the UN and invading IRAQ
    • Unable to look after our elderly
    • Oh and selling weapons!
    What more can any civilisation ask for

  • Comment number 28.

    I think Cameron's speech was excellent. It struck a careful balance between pointing out Chinese failings on human rights, without trying to force or lecture the Chinese which would probably achieve nothing in any case.
    I personally think pressure should have been applied after Tienanmen via trade sactions etc, however we are where we are and Cameron I think has played exactly the right line, using what little influence we do have in a positive way.
    He really is turning out to be a far better PM than I thought he would (and no my name is not Cameron!)

  • Comment number 29.

    The bombing of Iraq and Afghanistan killed tens of thousands of people and destroyed their infrastructures, detainees were abused, tortured and killed, does David Cameron really think he'll be taken seriously in China on the subject of human rights.

  • Comment number 30.

    "The British Prime Minister David Cameron said the UK still had "deeply-held concerns" over human rights, in his speech to students in China. Should western countries speak out on the affairs of non-western states?"

    I would suggest that David Cameron keep his thoughts to himself on this subject. While we here in the West have an almost perverted sense of what are Human Rights - Laws and Legislation that see the freedoms and rights of those who seek to harm us given a higher, more exalted platform than those who would be the intended victims - you and I. I suspect that the Chinese have more of an attitude akin to their communist teachings which is if anyone is not pulling or working in the same direction as the majority, then they are deemed to be subversive and treated as such.

    Who are we to say that this is right or wrong, given the mess we are in? Getting all upset and appalled at media portrayals of Human Rights abuses around the globe, it’s none of our business, leave them to it.

    As for how important is it to be dealing with countries that do or do not ascribe to democracy, again, none of our business. Once we start meddling in the political affairs of other countries, we create division. One half of their nation loves us, while the other hates us. We should trade with these countries where it is of benefit to us and leave it at that, nothing more. Leave the people to decide what political ideology they wish to live under. If people want change, they can make it happen. You only have to look at Iran to see what happens when we involve ourselves in more than trade. We meddled in their politics, supporting the Shah and now they have a religious regime that despises us. Outside of trade with these people, we should not be meddling. If trade comes with conditions or requirements to aid political establishments, then its trade not worth bothering with.

  • Comment number 31.

    Oil Baron.
    Loan Shark.
    Arms Dealer.

    We also like to put puppet governments in power to steal the resources of developing country's.

    All in the name of profit.

    But don't worry about that voters, continue to think anybody who disagrees with the currently accepted standard is a "conspiracy theorist". (Or, you could do some independent research and find out for yourself)

  • Comment number 32.

    As the Greenwich meridian runs through the UK, we are not technically in the West. Neither is most of Europe. If you want to know what the UK's part is in the world I would say it was very small and diminishing.
    As far as human rights are concerned Camerot should publically distance himself from the last US president as much as possible.

  • Comment number 33.

    We should mind our own business and trade with countries as and when it benefits us and not dictate what anybody else should or shouldn't do.

  • Comment number 34.

    The USA and the UK are not democracies because the people do not sufficiently challenge their elected representatives. We should talk to China and other countries about freedom of speech and human rights but we should also praise results in those improvements rather than being a nag.

  • Comment number 35.

    Cameron spoke of his personal believes in democracy, and that he is expected to speak out for views on democracy.

    Good, that is the way it should be.

    China's government clearly has a stability issue on open political debate, which is why Liu Xiaobo was jailed. It was the same mistake he made at Tianamen Sq.

    His Chapter 08 did not recognise the realities of China: the constraints, the acheivements, and he did not even understand China, that if he promote political dissent to the public, especially with a comphrehensively negative web broadcast of Chapter 08, it would undoubtedly be seen as State Subversion - a direct confrontation with the government's right to rule and its wisdom.

    This was why he was given an 11 years sentence. It is a sentence to deter.

    We cannot justify this in the west as we do not have an acute problem in stability, but in China today, it is a real problem.

    So Xiabo is promoted as a hero of democratic values of the west, but in the realities of China, he is a reckless amateur. He endangers the progress of China as well as his followers.

    An effective person who wants to change China for the better would work inside the Communist Party, not outside opposing it.

  • Comment number 36.

    Each country is a product of hundred's of years of it's own social, political and economic evolution. It is quite frankly ludicrous to believe that our system in the UK and the West is superior to those of other nations and should be simply transplanted onto whomever we deem to be following the wrong path.

    We have seen the farce of 'democratic' elections in Afghanistan and Iraq. Now our 'mentor' the US is bragging how torture is acceptable so long as they're the ones doing it. Today we have our PM lecturing the chinese - whose civilisation is thousands of years older than our own, on the niceties of human rights. You couldn't make it up!

    Dave's priority should be managing the long term decline of the UK as best he can and remember our own history - which has far more human rights abominations than most (though that's conveniently airbrushed out)before lecturing anyone else about theirs.

  • Comment number 37.

    Britain doesn't have many years left where it can tell China what to do so as a nation I suppose we have to speak out on things like this. In 20 years China will be telling us what to do, let's see if we like it when the shoe's on the other foot.

  • Comment number 38.

    What role does the West play on the world stage?
    A role that is becoming smaller and smaller as China fills the gaps.
    The British Prime Minister David Cameron said the UK still had "deeply-held concerns" over human rights, in his speech to students in China.
    What?
    How dare he!
    The Chinese were probably too polite to point out that Britain has her own human rights' issues (You know like torture, rendition?)
    If Mr Cameron was claiming no "moral superiority", why didn't he just keep his mouth shut? Does he believe that China needs his opinion in order to reform?
    As for US President Barack Obama, how can he still maintain that the US is not at war with Islam?
    Don't you think the American ongoing inaction re Jewish settlements and Palestinian oppression do not shout down his words?
    Don't you think the American continuous droning of Muslim areas to the loss of Muslim lives does not shout down his words?
    Mr Obama, stop with the speaches. Do something, take action...but do not insult the Muslim intelligence by pretending that you want to engage. Between Cairo and now, nothing has changed...NOTHING!
    Should western leaders comment on the affairs of other countries?
    No, most countries are doing their best with what they know; as they watch the world, they will be eclectic - picking and choosing those policies which seem best for their people.
    How influential are western speeches?
    Are you kidding me?
    How important is it for the UK and the US to reach out to non-western countries?
    Reach all you like, but these countries to whom you are reaching, they are watching. They are seeing what you do, and that impacts their ability to listen to any advice you may give.

  • Comment number 39.

    The problem seems to be that we think we are right, and to play on the world stage, these new folks should follow our rules.

    While I can understand that view, it is clear that the west is increasingly a spent force, as China and India grow stronger. The foreign policy, morals, ethics, cultural attitudes and viewpoint of the west is just that... the viewpoint of the west. We've grown and developed, we've exploited peoples and nations and natural resources and got rich on it. Over the last 150 years we've evolved into our current position.
    It's as realistic to expect that the rising east should simply adopt our morals and ethics, as it is that overnight we would adopt theirs.

    As for the west griping about Chinese currency policy hurting global trade. Put the shoe on the other foot... if we were doing very nicely thanks, our economy was growing strongly, we were developing at an amazing pace, would we really give much consideration to altering our policies to slow this down??
    No, of course not. We have exactly the same thing with global trade agreements - the west could do so much to enable greater opportunity for Africa, but choose not to as it would hurt us.

    China comes from a totally different cultural and historic starting point. It would be foolhardy for them to rush their development, no matter how much we may desire it.

  • Comment number 40.

    Due to their actions in the last decade, the USA and UK have lost any moral authority they had to preach about human rights.

  • Comment number 41.

    By 'the West', what is really meant is the USA. As the BRIC bloc grows in economic power, these countries will replace the European nations in power and influence. Apart from the UK most of the other European former colonial nations have adjusted to a post-imperial role, prefering to spend their money on improving their domestic societies than strutting and posing on the World stage.
    At the end of the Cold War the USA became the World's only hyperpower and conducts policy to ensure it remains in that position. As the economic power of the BRIC nations grows they will become more influential in political and possibly military terms, most probably only China has the will to project itself world-wide. Certainly it has already begun to use it's economic power in Africa and the East. It has begun to sign deals and buy companies to ensure it's access to raw materials and energy. The US is already showing concern.
    The Chines withdrew into itself in the 15th Century leaving the way clear for the European nations to expand out into Africa, the Americas and South-East Asia. Perhaps the 21st Century will be the Chinese century and not American.

  • Comment number 42.

    David Cameron's visit to China shows a serious need for trade with Asian Nations. Beijing will import technology to improve their industrial output of quality commodities. Chinese companies could reduce pollution for a clean environment with 21st century science developed in Europe and America.

  • Comment number 43.

    If these non western countries have any sense they should avoid 'democracy' at all costs!. Yes we all get to vote but, always end up being ruled by a government that more people didn't vote for due to the nature of the election system. Cameron and the 'greedy bankers protection party' shouldn't be lecturing the Chinese anyhow, their economy looks pretty good to me. Cameron should be taking advice from the Chinese on how to run an economy!Everything we buy here appears to have been made in China anyway. As for human rights? well Cameron and the 'greedy bankers protection party' don't seem to listen to us and, appear to have an agenda which can only reduce the UK to anarchy. What about the rights of the elderly, the infirm, the poor, the unemployed, the young etc... all under attack from the Tories and their puppets, the Dimlebs, while bailed out bankers are 'rewarding' their incompetence with huge bonuses and, not lending or, lending money at extortionate rates. Disgusting, vile and atrocious behaviour, robbing the poor to prop up the greedy, sickening!

  • Comment number 44.

    Maybe we can learn from China in the area of population control.
    Or learn the lesson that an excess of people is a problem and need addressing but maybe not as extreme as China.
    Though if we carry on as we are .....
    China can learn from us that no one group of people should have dominion over others without their consent, which brings me to the EU....

  • Comment number 45.

    Human rights and freedoms are progressing steadily in China. Trials of dissidents can now be telecast via CCTV, along with British PM speech on this issue without much censorship. Death sentence must now subject to a judicial review and political reform is now a debatable subject. It is fairer to comment on progress of human rights record in China and other non-West countries than to criticize them on isolated incidents.

  • Comment number 46.

    I don't think China will be influenced by Cameron....

  • Comment number 47.

    "25. At 1:44pm on 10 Nov 2010, Average-UK-Male wrote:
    I have no doubt that the "rich nations are the baddies" will have a field day over this topic, we have already seen comments about the wealth of Europe,North America or Australasia. I seem to remember a comment about the UK giving far more to a disaster fund that other nations. Well if we do that then I believe we have every right to comment on the failings of others. Be honest we are constantly told by certain other nations about our failings in the past so as far as I and a vast majority of others (probably far too busy working to be on here) are concerned that gives us every right to pass comment on others.
    I genuinely wonder why some people loathe this country and its system of government so much stay why not go somewhere that shares your views."

    Do you even know what a Democracy is?

    Do you honestly think that patriotism is a good thing?, to mindless submit to the authority of the state?

    Are you the kind of person who thinks we should just have Kings & lords?

    I can't believe somebody used the "IF YOU DONT LIKE ENGLAND, YOU CAN GET OUTTTTT!"

    You do relise that we are not the USA, this is not Texas & I am not a redneck.

  • Comment number 48.

    Should western leaders comment on the affairs of other countries?

    Of course, all leaders should comment on foreign affairs, it is not only their right but their duty to set out their contries position on different topics.

    How influential are their speeches?

    Speeches are just soundbites and not influential, but they do produce headlines which can be influential.

    How important is it for the UK and the US to reach out to non-western countries?

    It is important for all countries to engage with all other countries, that is the only way to try and put an end to conflicts.

    Which countries do you think embrace democracy and diversity?

    Those that allow freedom of movement and freedom of speech.

  • Comment number 49.

    Reminds me of the kettle calling the pot "black". In the UK we only have a limited form of democracy, virtually no property rights & are ruled by decree. I believe we should get our own house in order before preaching to other countries.

    Those who dislike China's "human rights" record are not forced to buy Chineese goods & can boycott them if they so choose. But this country does NOT have the moral highground where individual rights are concerned.

  • Comment number 50.

    Thanks to Blair's and Browns war mongering and dreadful economic policies of the last 10 years. The new guys in charge of our own far from perfect democratic system, should look and learn.
    Not lecture other countries about the error of their ways, least of all... the one pulling the worlds economic strings.

  • Comment number 51.

    It will take a lot to repair the damage caused by Blair. He swang between useful idiot and war criminal enthused by a messianic zeal. When all those who voted for him take a step back and ponder thousands of dead and maimed children, perhaps they will ask, as have those of us who didn't participate in his madness, 'what must the rest of the world think of us? What have we done?' Him and his hero Bush destroyed the reputation of the west.

    What a legacy.

  • Comment number 52.

    Isn't "the" west the one holding his hand out, beside an empty grave, saying;

    "alas, my poor hamlet, I know it well
    but, from what splendid grace it fell
    In which men and women of equal grace
    each had their homes and each their place

    But the fraud and greed of a small "elite"
    made credit take wing and hope grow feet
    now life's a stage on which men swagger and strut
    full of paupers, bankers and politicians in rut"

    If Shakespeare had known what his globe would become
    It is probable that to write, he would not have begun




  • Comment number 53.

    We really should not be pontificating to other countries about their approach to democracy and domestic affairs, after having just bombed Iraq and Afghanistan out of existence!! We strut around the world telling Iran, Syria and other countries how to operate, yet conduct more corrupt elections than most 3rd World countries (Bush election 2004,UK polling booth closures 2010). Hypocrisy seems to be the order of the day for Western countries. Its more do as I say, not as I do.

  • Comment number 54.

    Almost all nations of the west still act like the atrocious colonial powers they once were (or in the US's case, are currently). Whilst not pretending for one moment that most nations outside of the *westerner's club* are ideal, their governments, religious nonsense and records on human rights are no better or worse than ours - they are just different. The G8's - and even the G20's, are mostly bullyboys who can't tolerate anyone or anything to which they can't immediately relate. When, however, governments or citizens of the *other* nations take action or speak out in protest, they are labelled terrorists. Personally, I don't think anyone has the right to force their religion (through ideology or through missionaries claiming to be aid workers), their form of government or their way of life on other human beings.

  • Comment number 55.

    "What role does the West play on the world stage?"

    That of the lands of the setting sun...

  • Comment number 56.

    The immidiate role for west to fix their repective economies to the levels of pre-Iraq afghan wars era before even thinking of any interventionist role any where.

  • Comment number 57.

    None of our business what other countries choose to do.

  • Comment number 58.

    "What role does the West play on the world stage?"

    Same role as always - a domineering, controlling, uncaring, interfering, profiteering, greedy, selfish and barbaric role.

    And that's the watered-down, diplomatic, version.

  • Comment number 59.

    If the western countries are democracies why western politicians allow immigration when all pools show that the people in the west are against immigration.

  • Comment number 60.

    The West has had its day. It is in financial, moral and political decline which shows no sign of abating. The new powers will be fronted by China with its totalitarian, state controlled capitalism.
    We, the West, cannot compete on many fronts as we are based on an open democratic society, China, like the other up and coming power India, are corrupt to the core. Anyone who has done business their will understand what I mean.
    We had better prepare for the inevitable, which will lowering of standards of living, wealth, benefits, etc as world economies 'equalise'. Protest as much as you like, this will happen as we have become uncompetitive and even dont like to mention that word – competition (not PC these days, it might upset someone who is competitively challenged)
    You lefties dont like the Western capitalist society, wait until our children have the Chinese version thrust up you, brave new world. They say the devil you know is better than the devil you dont, but sad to say the 'die has been cast' and the 'monkey is out of the bag' children. I suppose you can legalise drugs or ban foxhunting or give gay rights to sixteen year olds or something really worth while like that (play your harp whilst Rome burns and listen to La La Labours lies - sorry bedtime stories for children)

  • Comment number 61.

    China's policy priority has always been security. If you don't have security you cannot protect your citizens so all human rights go out of the window. I think we have demonstrated to them exactly what happens when you try to force democracy on a country which is not ready for it. Just ask anyone in Iraq especially those recently bereaved after bomb blasts. We destroyed security and the result needs no further explanation.

  • Comment number 62.

    David Cameron doesn't see irony in his comments which come on the day of news reports concerning British soldiers accused of war crimes in Iraq involving human rights abuses being investigated.

    At least the Chinese don't go around invading and occupying other countries and then committing human rights abuses in those countries.

    Sure, the Chinese regime is deplorable. But so is the Saudi regime and we bend over for them at every opprtunity.

    Money talks. And money carries greater sway in the murky, immoral and unethical world of world politicis and so-called diplomacy.

    Western governments have absolutely no moral authority on right over wrong. All governments around the world are simply wrong.

  • Comment number 63.

    No, we have no right to lecture other countries on how they run their internal affairs. We have chosen the path of democracy, universal suffrage and a capitalist economy. We must respect the different choices other nations make, even if we don't like them.
    If China or Iran were publicly to criticise they way our society works we would consider it arrogant, insulting and none of their business. It works both ways.
    We have enough social and economic problems of our own to solve, so let's get on with that and stop preaching to the rest of the world.

  • Comment number 64.

    28. At 1:49pm on 10 Nov 2010, brownandout wrote:
    I think Cameron's speech was excellent. It struck a careful balance between pointing out Chinese failings on human rights, without trying to force or lecture the Chinese which would probably achieve nothing in any case.
    I personally think pressure should have been applied after Tienanmen via trade sactions etc, however we are where we are and Cameron I think has played exactly the right line, using what little influence we do have in a positive way.
    He really is turning out to be a far better PM than I thought he would (and no my name is not Cameron!)

    ------------------------------------

    What a laughable comment straight from thr PR office at No 10, you should have included afew spelling mistakes to make it look more plausible

    What right does Cameron have to lecture the Chinese,when we go along with waterboarding and propably a lot more besides. He is telling them that democracy is a superior form of government, is this the same man who is in power only by fixing things with the Lib Dems who have decided to forget their election pledges. Cameron's idea of democracy is say whatever you think will get you elected and then change your policy later

  • Comment number 65.

    I find it interesting how the world seems to respond to change - the change to the US's new stance as 'world-superpower-with the-less-belligerant-human-face', the one that I am seeing occur during the Obama administration.
    My newly arrived tomcat bared teeth at the home-cats, peed everywhere and became the howling top-cat. Disliking pee & howls, I removed the offending cohones, put him in a don't-chew-your-stitches collar, and watched the new inter-cat dynamic evolve..... Fascinating.
    The US is getting used to their new dynamic. There will be less micturating, less strutting & posturing, less self-confidence. Other sub-dominants will test the top-cat, twist the tail, and show 'disrespect'... President Lula, President Karzai, PM Gillard, PM Singh, PM Razak, President Ahmadinejad, President Calderón, PM Gillani, President Medvedev, PM Kim Hwang-sik, Chancellor Merkel, and of course President Ma Ying-jeou .... all are subtly altering their alliances, allegancies, levels of 'respect', and primary trading partnerships.
    There will be stand-offs (stands-off?) - the standing eye-ball to eye-ball, the howling in mutual and harmonic matched-assertion - but eventually the one with the balls will stare-down the the old-top-cat.
    Such is life.

  • Comment number 66.

    59. At 2:27pm on 10 Nov 2010, mike111 wrote:
    If the western countries are democracies why western politicians allow immigration when all pools show that the people in the west are against immigration.

    ----

    Its all a leftist conspiracy, directed against you, personally.

  • Comment number 67.

    We in the West are still a major player on the world stage and that is why we are the target of terrorism. We are also the place of refuge for so many asylum seekers and immigrants. We are still the leaders in innovation, commerce and medical research and would be even far better placed if the bankers had not "screwed up" in 2008. All that said, there is no room for complacency with China, India and Brazil all wanting to "sit at the top table".

  • Comment number 68.

    Mass murderer Mao headed this terrible Communist regime and they have survived only by opening up to trade with the West.
    As big as everyone seems to think China has gotten, they're not the boss and they absolutely need the West to stay strong.
    Don't misunderstand, buying goods and relying on China to buy debt has made China a huge world player, and the West could learn a lot (or rather, remember) how to build a vibrant economy from China. For example, if they lecture President Obama about high tax rates in the US, the US should pay attention.

    Now, about speeches which champion ethical questions, of course they should be made to tyrannical regimes i.e. any Communist regime. This is not a compare our human rights record, like so many seem to think. The logic behind 'well, we did bad things, too' does not hold up. If there is something terrible which must be addressed, keeping the issue of Tienanmen Square fresh and current in the Chinese leadership's mind is a good and valuable thing. One would hope it will have the effect of making them think before they treat their fellow man so poorly the next go around. If the Chinese bring up slavery or what have you, simply agree and say they were terrible sins for which we are sorry, but they do not excuse the present days sins of China. Most specifically, the sins of the Communist leadership.

  • Comment number 69.

    Given the appalling state of our so-called democracy, I think our PM has a real cheek lecturing other countries!!!

    When did we last have a Government supported by much more than a mere quarter of the electorate?

    What tiny proportion of our MPs get more than 50% of their constituency votes? Do any get the votes of 50% of their constituents?

    [don't talk about AV; that's just a disgraceful fudge]

    Democracy in the UK. It's a joke!

  • Comment number 70.

    At 2:14pm on 10 Nov 2010, Mark wrote:
    "25. At 1:44pm on 10 Nov 2010, Average-UK-Male wrote:
    I have no doubt that the "rich nations are the baddies" will have a field day over this topic, we have already seen comments about the wealth of Europe,North America or Australasia. I seem to remember a comment about the UK giving far more to a disaster fund that other nations. Well if we do that then I believe we have every right to comment on the failings of others. Be honest we are constantly told by certain other nations about our failings in the past so as far as I and a vast majority of others (probably far too busy working to be on here) are concerned that gives us every right to pass comment on others.
    I genuinely wonder why some people loathe this country and its system of government so much stay why not go somewhere that shares your views."

    Do you even know what a Democracy is?

    Do you honestly think that patriotism is a good thing?, to mindless submit to the authority of the state?

    Are you the kind of person who thinks we should just have Kings & lords?

    I can't believe somebody used the "IF YOU DONT LIKE ENGLAND, YOU CAN GET OUTTTTT!"

    You do relise that we are not the USA, this is not Texas & I am not a redneck.
    --------------------------------------------------
    Dont you like my comments, shame but the fact is it is because we have freedom of speech and are a democracy that both you and I are allowed to say what we feel. We may not like all our political parties but they have a right to stand. I managed to say what I said without shouting, I do have manners, you on the other hand shouted back. I do know what democracy is I was proud to serve in our armed forces and I am proud to wear a poppy to show support to our forces and to remember those that laid down their lives so that you and I have the right to free speech and free elections (the polling booths were open for 13 hours)
    Yes I do think patriotism is a good thing, do you have a problem with that? if so and you are living in the UK then perhaps you should consider whether it is right for a person who dislikes their country to take any benefits from it.
    By the way notice I said UK.

  • Comment number 71.

    why is everybody talking like china is about in start declaring war on everybody get real nobody wants a ww3 not even russia or china, im quite happy to let china take over i dont mind so long as they dont tell us how to live and we do the same fair enough
    its a shame the americans dont think like that, europe is pretty relaxed unlike the usa europe and usa are not the same.

    team america hit the nail on the head really, world police id be much happier for the uk to take a backseat from the world and focus on its self let china and india deal with the wars etc

  • Comment number 72.

    What role does the West play? World's greatest Selective critic while quietly condoning each others' Abuses.

    Obama & Cameron could EASILY substantiate their rhetoric by Returning the Citizens of Diego Garcia to their Native Land and COMPENSATING those poor people for MISERY Inflicted for over 25 Years. (Whole population was Forceably Evicted by Royal Marines and DUMPED on shores of Seychelles as REFUGEES for UK to make a GIFT of their Nation to US as a Strategic Base.
    Even after Britain's High Court ruled 'FOR' their Return, UK Govt REFUSED to abide by it's own Law and ARROGANTLY designated the surrounding area a World Marine Sanctuary to circumvent it's High Court Ruling, while allowing US Bases to Exist on those peoples' Native Land. Is it any wonder everyone who can are craving NUKES to keep PREDATORS at bay?)
    Only way to affect Change for Lasting Peace is Leading by Example with REAL JUSTICE.

  • Comment number 73.

    12. At 1:26pm on 10 Nov 2010, jalfreizi wrote:
    We will recover in the next few years and become strong again.
    Unfortunately the far east (China in particular) have a strong start as they are powering up right now.
    Sad to say we will never enjoy the position of the being in the top three ever again.
    I have a strong feeling that the USA will go down the same route which, believe me they will not accept as a nation.
    So it will be prepare yourselves for India and China, still there food is great.

    #############################################

    We were No 1 in the world in 1857 the year of the Great Exhibition at Crystal Palace. Ten years later we were No 3 behind the USA & Germany, and have been slipping down the worlds 'top' list ever since.

    The two biggest disasters this country has ever had were WWI and WWII, after which we were bankrupt. But hey! we 'won' both wars didn't we? Well no actually, the germans were beaten by the russians and the japanese by the USA. We were amoungst the 'winners' but despite contributing more of our nations resources we acomplished little actually for 'us'.

    Yet still we strut the worlds stage, wars here, there, and everywhere. Sticking our noses into new and emerging nations with our cloak of history to camouflage our inadequacies (not that other nations cannot see through it).

    Please can we just say we had a good run at the top and re-boot the nation as a slightly over populated country on the outside of europe. We are not particularly good at anything. Our politics stinks, our lawyers are too greedy & self-obsessed about 'their' law. Our education system is not bad but not the best it could be. Our National Health System would work if everybody was prepared to pay for it and not to clutter it up with a bunch of hypochondriacs.

    We became world leaders due to the industrial revolution & because we had iron ore, coal and people. The USA became a world superpower because it had everything except people, (land, food, energy, raw materials) and they accepted all the people the rest of the world didn't want. Who hungry for improvement, put up with terrible conditions to improve themselves and give their children a future.

    Just as every great society falls from within, we (and the USA) are falling. We are falling for the same reason the roman republic/empire fell. We have created an 'elite' a priveliged class who believe that they, and only they can run the nation, for themselves, and that this is the 'best' for all of us (but particularly for all those poor millionaires).

    We will never get back to where we were so lets just accept it. Stop giving in to those who have, and do not want the rest of us, the majority, to 'have' as well.

    As for China, they have the resources, the people with the hunger to 'have' what we 'have' and they will not stop, even when they pass us by. So let them have their time in the sun, they have waited long enough for it.




  • Comment number 74.

    West won't get anything in return for any role they play in the world stage. And thats the price you pay.

    Don't we have United Nations already?

    All major plans and policies are ultimately the outcome of the better managed philosophies of the west and in this respect its the Enlish law and rule thats triumphant.

    If I had to learn another language to connect, bet it won't be Mandarin because their wisdom also speaks English. And that's definitely a singing Barbie.

    So, who stole our wealth?

    A Dream cannot be priced and thats the truth in Imperial Wisdom.

  • Comment number 75.

    It never ceases to amaze and disgust me that these HYS forums end up with comment after comment from guilt ridden Western self flagellators, desperately falling over themselves to decry the horrors of the West in its dealings with the rest of the world.

    Fools!

    There is no getting away from the fact that some of the actions of our ancestors here in the West were pretty questionable, but the fact remains that we have benefited from them and as a result enjoy a pretty good way of life.

    What you also need to bear in mind is that the greatest leaps in progress and improvement did not come at the expense of people in far off lands but people here in the west, the factory workers, the farmers, the industrialist workforces and engineers, the navies.

    The past is not going to be changed (despite left-wing attempts to re-write it) and we all enjoy a better quality of life as a result. There’s no point sitting there crying your eyes out, those responsible are long dead. So get of your knees, its embarrassing!

  • Comment number 76.

    Really though, this cycle of ascent and decline will happen to the end of time. It's happened for thousands of years before now and probably will for thousands of years after. It's just our turn to decline and their time to ascend.

  • Comment number 77.

    I hardly think the British or Americans are in any position to preach human rights to others, what with waterboarding and other atrocities in the Middle East, and our own dubious claim to have built the first concentration camps during the Boer war.

    I suggest we cease sticking our noses into other peoples' business with a holier-than-thou attitude, and jumping into illegal and unjustified wars, before we begin pointing the finger at China or, for that matter, any other country that way.

    We may not like what goes on elsewhere, but it is the responsibility of indigenous populations to revolt in strength if they really believe their rulers are ill-treating them.

  • Comment number 78.

    68. At 2:56pm on 10 Nov 2010, Baron wrote:
    Mass murderer Mao headed this terrible Communist regime and they have survived only by opening up to trade with the West.

    -----

    Its never really been a communist state.

    During the culrural revoulution the Chinese effectively exchanged one authoritarian elite class for a new one.

    The new authoritarian elite called itself the 'communist party' but as to the fundamental defining characteristic of communism, the even re-distrubution of wealth - that never happened.

    If you want to check whether or not a country is truly communist, have a look at the average house or car in the country, then take a look at where the ruling class live and what they are driving - if there is a massive discrepency between the living standards of the common people and those of the ruling elite it is not a'communist' country.

    As to what China is now, I have no idea, I think we are seeing the evolution of a new system of governance emerging in modern China.

  • Comment number 79.

    The west has no place to go telling everyone else how to live. It is a huge presumption to say that #our# lifestyle is better than #theirs#.

    We get resented for it, and hey presto people get annoyed and come over and give us a slap in the face, metaphorically speaking.

    Yes, human rights are important, but you have to ask why other cultures have a different approach to them.

  • Comment number 80.

    Citizens of the nations in which some semblance of democracy flourishes had to fight for that priviledge over generations. Until the citizens of a country are ready to demand democracy and ready to fight - even die - for it, it just ain't going to happen... however nicely other nations ask, however much they try to bully other countries into adopting it.

    Look to the former Communist nations in the west, those who decided that as the USSR ceased to exist, they too wished to regain control of their own destinies. They stood up and demanded, demonstrated, even fought, for that control.

  • Comment number 81.

    Lets face it, we in the UK has such an insatiable desire for cheap Chinese tat that the Chinese government could be murdering babies with hammers and we still would not be bothered.

    We want their cheap and nasty tatty goods and nothing is going to stop us !

  • Comment number 82.

    Who actually are in the West group ? O I know a lot of incompetent governments all fleecing their own nests and pockets !! If they are on the stage get a boat hook and yank them off as they have all lost the plot .

  • Comment number 83.

    25. At 1:44pm on 10 Nov 2010, Average-UK-Male wrote:
    I have no doubt that the "rich nations are the baddies" will have a field day over this topic, we have already seen comments about the wealth of Europe,North America or Australasia. I seem to remember a comment about the UK giving far more to a disaster fund that other nations. Well if we do that then I believe we have every right to comment on the failings of others. Be honest we are constantly told by certain other nations about our failings in the past so as far as I and a vast majority of others (probably far too busy working to be on here) are concerned that gives us every right to pass comment on others.
    I genuinely wonder why some people loathe this country and its system of government so much stay why not go somewhere that shares your views.


    -----------------------

    give me the money to immigrate to NZ and i will gladly go, no? how about talking sense then instead of spewing ignorant stupid comments?

    this country is a failure
    its not a democracy- when was the last referendum on anything cannabis, eu, laws etc?
    the political parties have no interest in the good of the country just staying in power
    the law system is flawed in that it usually favours the criminal over the victim (people breaking into your house and you get prosecuted)
    the country is a long time full to the brim and nobody has the balls to stop it.
    anything thats "fun" is basically getting banned without anykind of evidence to support it (mephedrone)
    we are no longer allowed to be overweight or we will be punished
    your not allowed to smoke because other people dont like it
    your not allowed to drive as the goverment is pricing people off the roads
    your not allowed to drink more than 1 pint a day max or your a binge drinker
    the police are corrupt hypacrites one rule for them one for another

    i could go on for hours really

    oh and basically common sense had died in this country so everybody is becoming more and more stupid because they gorverment doesnt encourage thinking for yourself because if they do and you hurt yourself you can sue somebody

  • Comment number 84.

    In historic terms and continuing into the present era, civilian victims of peace far outnumber the victims of outright warfare, by countless numbers of defenseless children, women, and civilian men, often enslaved, tortured and murdered in the most violent ways as part of another nation's private business. This does not even begin to account for the immense sufferings that some regimes inflict on their own people, without leaving so much as a physical trace of the immense violence that they incessantly pursue as their means to gain and preserve absolute power. History repeats the litany if horrific instances where other nations failed to intervene. Sometimes inclusive of the the planned or actual military conquests of territory. Humankind has yet to fully learn how to speak up against the wrongs that lead to war, when they first assert themselves, as much as it has failed to learn to make war against evil when it first asserts itself and when the first real casualties begin to be known. Moral and ethical wrongs by a government of a foreign nation, are not a small matter and silence and inaction lead only lead to conflagrations beyond immediate imagining. The wrongs of other nations are not their own private business. They are the world community's business and Mr. Cameron has shown remarkable leadership in a time of immense danger as to peace and stability in the future.

  • Comment number 85.

    "It's a fundemental problem with Westerners and Americans in particular to believe that their way is the only right way."


    I'ts not a problem of beliefs (we'll leave it to religious and ideological fanatics);

    It's a problem of STATISTICS.



    P.S. pres. Obama, during his stay in Indonesia, has also said some things about human rights and freedom of speech in China, which Communist Politbureau's members are not going to be very pleased with.

    [not that leaders of PRC-propped military junta in Burma ARE going to be happy about things BHO said about it while in India.]

  • Comment number 86.

    "Not only are India and China economic powerhouses in the making they also have nuclear weapons and the West dare not intimidate them like they intimidated Iraq and more recently, Iran.

    The fact that India is perhaps on the verge of entry to a permanent seat on the Security Council speaks volumes."



    Not if China has anything to say about India's membership. :)

  • Comment number 87.

    What role does the West play on the world stage?
    I would love you to define the West in order for the question to be clearer. I guess you mean the USA plus the coalition of the coerced, corrupt and plain stupid. The UK being in the last category after agreeing to change its law in order to accommodate suspected Israeli war criminals last week.
    To answer the question the role is mainly one of self delusion. The US and GB firmly believe they are the corner stones of the "Free World" and "Freedom" should be exported to the ignorant dark corners of the planet, even if it means we have to kill them to save them. Save them that is so they can work for us and buy our goods. The self delusion comes in when history shows that the USA has probably interfered in, corrupted or overthrown more real democracies in the word than any other country in history.

  • Comment number 88.

    At 2:56pm on 10 Nov 2010, Baron wrote:
    Mass murderer Mao headed this terrible Communist regime and they have survived only by opening up to trade with the West.





    Isn't it interesting that nobody here want's to raise an issue of PRC-occupied Inner Mongolia, Tibet and Uighuria.

    I wonder why?

  • Comment number 89.

    The role of the west is becoming more and more irrelevant by the day. China could, if it so wished, bankrupt both the UK and USA in an instant and this is the reason both Cameron and Obama are doing the rounds in asia. As regards democracy, have the west ever asked if countries wanted it? Or have they just arrogantly assumed this? And Cameron isn`t claiming "moral superiority"? Yeah right. We have no empire Cameron so don`t go swanning around the world like ceasar. This is the new world order where the east now hold all the economic cards and now the west will have to play to someone elses tune. Lets hope this humbling experience for the west will make them far more tolerant and far less beligerant. Somehow i doubt it.

  • Comment number 90.

    chiptheduck wrote:
    None of our business what other countries choose to do.






    That's what people with similar mentality said about Hitler and III Reich in 1938.

  • Comment number 91.

    Re #77 "We may not like what goes on elsewhere, but it is the responsibility of indigenous populations to revolt in strength if they really believe their rulers are ill-treating them."




    Granted. E.g.: we cannot liberate Dark Age Islamist Iran and make it democratic for young educated Iranians.

    They have to do it themselves.

  • Comment number 92.

    83. At 3:22pm on 10 Nov 2010, scotty1694 wrote:
    25. At 1:44pm on 10 Nov 2010, Average-UK-Male wrote:
    I have no doubt that the "rich nations are the baddies" will have a field day over this topic, we have already seen comments about the wealth of Europe,North America or Australasia. I seem to remember a comment about the UK giving far more to a disaster fund that other nations. Well if we do that then I believe we have every right to comment on the failings of others. Be honest we are constantly told by certain other nations about our failings in the past so as far as I and a vast majority of others (probably far too busy working to be on here) are concerned that gives us every right to pass comment on others.
    I genuinely wonder why some people loathe this country and its system of government so much stay why not go somewhere that shares your views.


    -----------------------

    give me the money to immigrate to NZ and i will gladly go, no? how about talking sense then instead of spewing ignorant stupid comments?

    this country is a failure

    ------

    This country is not a failure.

    If you and your fellow Mailers had any the least inkling what most of the rest of the world is like , away from Europe & North America, you'd wake up every day thanking your lucky stars you were born in the UK.

    Its not perfect, there is room for improvement, but, it is genuinely so much better than what most of the rest of the world have to put up with.

  • Comment number 93.

    Did Obama mean... we are not at war with Islam...because I am one of you?

  • Comment number 94.

    Democracy and its marketing are the West's agenda. While democracy can only work well if the voters are educated, able to see thing beyond the immediate, have an impartial judiciary and have the ability to bring their voices and frustrations via ballots and courts. In the Chinese model everything is done by the super intellectuals of the communist party, the only participation allowed is via the party politics, individuality is shunned and collective behavior is encouraged, it has the element of the group survival versus individual survival. Both the systems are very corrupt, there is always some on the top of the pyramid sucking away the money from the bottom of the pyramid. Both systems encourage obedience to the power versus principles. China is able to keep its markets and currency closed to world scrutiny, via the strict and secret laws that exist within the politburo. The West needs these markets to sell its merchandise, in most cases heavy industrial products. Chinese are slowly spending more money which will help the Western goods to find a foothold. In this game of business the concern for earnings is far higher priority, than whether, the Chinese can express their free will and desire via freedom of speech. Economic interests surpass human rights. All the sweet talks on freedom are for only economic survival.

  • Comment number 95.

    The West should play no role in the world.

    It is time the West concentrated on it own people intead of everybody elses.

    China who has become rich by flooding us with cheap products thanks to undervaluing it currency can now have its go.

  • Comment number 96.

    We have no right to interfere in their internal politics and they have no right to interfere in ours. The sooner the western world accepts this the better for all of us. It may well offend a lot of people who think the world should be fair but sadly it isn't and never will be.

  • Comment number 97.

    To all those who post comments championing China, aren't you aware they (the Chinese) are in the middle of eradicating Tibetan Culture, as well as the numerous atrocities against Muslim Uygers in Xinjiang Province??

    Interesting, when Israel commits 'offenses' there's no end of vitriol against them as a state and people, BUT when it's China, then there's no end of hypocrisy! You're all very funny, but in a stupid way!

  • Comment number 98.

    Actually it is very hard human right equal to all especially to communist world even the most of the democracy countries have no human right too. Logically room for the human right depends not on democracy or communist it depends more on rich or poor. Most of the poor countries are lack of human right or those people are suffering wost than a communist citizen.

  • Comment number 99.

    Truth is often seen best through the eyes of others...

    ...many of whom see the West as lazy, greedy, self-righteous, interfering, poachers-turned-game-keepers who hoard their ill-gotten gains and now manipulate global power through financial, corporate and military dominance.

    You might not like the picture but check the history and, as regards being lazy and greedy, isn't it obvious that whilst the West always wants more for less, only countries like China and India have populations that are prepared to put in the necessary hard work to meet that demand?

    For the most part, preaching about democracy is just a Western indulgence, but it's also a political ploy to try to capture the moral high ground.

    If you rent a car for 2 days, most rental companies take far more interest in your satisfaction (both before and after the rental) than the politicians do for the 4-year stints that they control entire nations and extort countless thousands of pounds in taxes from the voters - even if you didn't choose them.

    Democracy is a fantasy - but then people believe in all sorts of weird stuff and live on their own planets.

  • Comment number 100.

    "To all those who post comments championing China, aren't you aware they (the Chinese) are in the middle of eradicating Tibetan Culture, as well as the numerous atrocities against Muslim Uygers in Xinjiang Province??"





    At least some of us do, and care. [see #88]

 

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