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Should the Lisbon Treaty be changed?

11:42 UK time, Thursday, 28 October 2010

A new European row is developing over a proposal to re-write part of the EU's Lisbon Treaty to avert another financial crisis. Do you think changes are necessary?

Germany wants limited amendments to the EU treaty to reinforce the changes, but is facing resistance from other countries.

Earlier, EU Justice Commissioner Viviane Reding said any discussion of treaty change was "irresponsible".

It took almost a decade of negotiations and two referendums in the Republic of Ireland to ratify the Lisbon Treaty, and many states are reluctant to make a move which could trigger a similar process.

Do you agree with the proposed change to the treaty? Do you think it is necessary to tackle Europe's debt problems? Would you propose any further changes?

This debate is now closed. Thank you for your comments.

Comments

Page 1 of 5

  • Comment number 1.

    Yet more confirmation that the EU is nothing more than a franco-german club. The sooner the better we have a referendum so we can leave them to it.

  • Comment number 2.

    Should the Lisbon Treaty be change?

    If it will protect and unite everyone then why not.

  • Comment number 3.

    Even the Bible is being adjusted time to time, so why not that lousy treaty when facts can't support the principles there? Carved in stone?

  • Comment number 4.

    what a pointless topic were not in the eurozone its not our problem!


    how about we change the topic to this?

    Should we stand our ground over the propsed EU budget increases or agree to them?

    now thats a much bett topic!

    i say no to the eus plans of a budget costing us another 900m a year!

  • Comment number 5.

    Unless it involves a national referendum, which politicians will never allow, then we will have no say in the matter. Our opinions count for nothing, as a national referendum to gauge national feelings on membership of the EU would indicate that over 90% would favour withdrawal. Shows how much the electorate are considered!!!!
    MPs will decide and we will be told the outcome. This HYS is redundant.

  • Comment number 6.

    I dont hear of the US states fighting. They compete to a point but all for the good of the country then state. Can anyone anywhere say that is what they see with the EU?

  • Comment number 7.

    3. At 12:01pm on 28 Oct 2010, Tibor wrote:
    Even the Bible is being adjusted time to time, so why not that lousy treaty when facts can't support the principles there? Carved in stone?


    this is not the same
    this will actually punish countries for stuff, that france and germany have decided to change the rules for there benefit

    they dont change the bibble to make people into sinners all of a sudden

  • Comment number 8.

    oo what an interesting rule!

    Discussions may be closed if they have become off topic, out of date, or if the number of posts is so high that the discussion has become unmanageable. They may be closed if the thread as a whole found to break the House Rules. If the first post of a discussion is found to break the House Rules the discussion will automatically be closed to further posts.

    so from now on on irrelevant topics like this 1st poster please break the rules!

    seriously this has nothing to do with us were not the eurozone
    the eu budget increases are who picks the topics ?

  • Comment number 9.

    Well, this could be a interesting 'test' of Cameron's credibility! I am sure he and Hague promised a referendum on any 'new' changes to the Lisbon Treaty! Oh yes, but then the Lisbon treaty is a 'self' amending treaty isn't it? That being that in signing up to the treaty ALL members of the glorious EU signed away sovereignty and accepted the 'clause' that any amendments or changes to the treaty did not require further Parliamentary agreement or electoral consultation or any referendum! Mmmmmm - I think we might conclude the Tory pre-election spin and mystic promises are about to spin them into a little difficulty! Hohoho

    I guess it's time to call Sir Humphrey to explain exactly how, when they said NO CHANGES to the EU treaty without referendum, what they actually meant was that we must, in the interest of cooperation, and because we are a committed member of the EU, and in order to ensure the EU does not replace parliamentary democracy and the right of the British people to determine their OWN future, in fact accept such changes as are in the interest of our nation. And I am sure Sir Humphrey will provide a clarification to the effect, that in terms of sovereignty, in pursuing a course of action which is concurrent with the spirit of the declaration, insofar, as it is our decision in pursuance of the fact, Parliament in accepting such a change is in concurrence with the original utterances and the principles of that statement; that in sticking to the principle outlined by the Rt Hon Cameron and Hague in their sincerely pronounceable utterances of verbiage defining exactly that the nation, and indeed the actual consequence of parliamentary sovereign right to govern on behalf of the sovereign peoples of this nation, the actions are in fact of the uppermost importance and central in arriving at agreement with the EU. Thus, it is possible to at once agree with the proposal presented by the EU and the Lisbon Treaty amendment while maintaining absolute parliamentary sovereignty without recourse to the necessaries of consultation or referenda of the people!

    Well that's that issue cleared up then!

  • Comment number 10.

    All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

  • Comment number 11.

    Isn't it funny how the French and the Germans can mess about with the EU as much as they want when it is in their interests. Do you think there was a deal after WW II - or even during it - that after the war the French would do the politics and the Germans the economics so they could kick Britain where it hurts? Almost certainly.

  • Comment number 12.


    The EU budget must be trimmed just the same as our own UK budget has been trimmed. Why should we pay a huge increase to Eurocrats when we are suffering swinging cuts?

    Our Government must inform the EU that we will reduce our payments by 10%. The EU needs us sufficiently not to call our bluff and throw us out, so by taking bold action the Government should be able to free up much needed money for the UK.

    And what if the EU says it'll be short of money? Point out that so are we, and we are not in a position to subsidise it.

    Mike Solomons

  • Comment number 13.

    10. At 12:21pm on 28 Oct 2010, CL wrote:

    They should make bank regulation obligatory, that would affect UK, which deregulated, with USA, giving rise to the recession. There will be a lot of comments against the EU, partly because our press is mostly owned by US big business, which isn't so keen on an EU which they don't so easily control as the USA and UK governments.
    And our narrow education that teaches us to jump through hoops rather than think for ourselves so we're too easily swayed by tabloids etc.
    I'm not saying I like everything about the EU, far from it, I just get the feeling a lot of the anti EU sentiment isn't exactly well thought through, highly accurate, or pushed for the right reasons. Norway and Switzerland, for example, have adopted more EU laws than Britain has, so, in practice, they're highly dependent on the EU..

    ---------------------------

    I think its more a question of trust-

    >When did we last war with the US (long time ago) and when did we last war with europe(WW2).
    >When did we last rely on the US (WW2) and who disapoints us in times of crisis (france).
    >Who provides value for money (US) and who costs more and overruns badly (europe).
    >Who in the west takes action (US) and who sits and debates petty squabbles (EU).

    I think its more a question of competency and the EU rarely demonstrates competency. There may be a few perks but they are burried under waste and irrelivance. After years of seeing how the US does it, we cant be inspired by an expensive and lesser quality european knock off.

  • Comment number 14.

    john the ghost there is really no need for a referendum on this change unless we are going to change to the euro soon which i cant see happening anytime too soon.

    although your right we wouldnt get a referendum if it did directly effect us which is wrong!

    im noticing the bbc pick topics for discussion that they know people will already think they know alot about but wont actually read up about.
    like the deer the other day they pick things which well mis informed idiots "have an opinion" so there entitled to it even though its wrong and usually totally off the mark.

    can we all please start reading the actuall news about these topics and have a constructive debate? instead of just mis informed hear say and people who think there clever because they can spot spelling and grammar mistakes (ingeneral people who are good at science and maths are poor at english yes iknow some of you are exceptions so please dot quote my post and harp on about how not everybody is the same)

  • Comment number 15.

    11. At 12:27pm on 28 Oct 2010, Edwin Schrodinger wrote:

    Isn't it funny how the French and the Germans can mess about with the EU as much as they want when it is in their interests. Do you think there was a deal after WW II - or even during it - that after the war the French would do the politics and the Germans the economics so they could kick Britain where it hurts? Almost certainly.

    --------------------------

    Germany with their intelligence and efficiency probably thought up the plan and the french surrendered to the paper it was written on ;)

  • Comment number 16.

    CL wrote:

    They should make bank regulation obligatory, that would affect UK, which deregulated, with USA, giving rise to the recession. There will be a lot of comments against the EU, partly because our press is mostly owned by US big business, which isn't so keen on an EU which they don't so easily control as the USA and UK governments.
    And our narrow education that teaches us to jump through hoops rather than think for ourselves so we're too easily swayed by tabloids etc.
    I'm not saying I like everything about the EU, far from it, I just get the feeling a lot of the anti EU sentiment isn't exactly well thought through, highly accurate, or pushed for the right reasons. Norway and Switzerland, for example, have adopted more EU laws than Britain has, so, in practice, they're highly dependent on the EU..


    On the contrary – people I know who dislike the EU tend to be very intelligent and erudite people who HAVE thought through the issues and have decided they don’t like such an archaic, corrupt, bureaucratic and anti-democratic club (and dare I say, incompetant. Here we have them on the one hand saying they want to increase the money they get from member states, and on the other saying they want control the level of debt countries get into. So it's all about making sure the gravy train is running nice and smoothly).

    …and be careful what you wish for. A more educated population might just see your beloved EU for what it really is, and the calls for this country leaving may get even louder.

  • Comment number 17.

    11. At 12:27pm on 28 Oct 2010, Edwin Schrodinger wrote:
    Isn't it funny how the French and the Germans can mess about with the EU as much as they want when it is in their interests. Do you think there was a deal after WW II - or even during it - that after the war the French would do the politics and the Germans the economics so they could kick Britain where it hurts? Almost certainly.


    that was actually a plan by the germans around ww2 economic supremacy or something im sure somebody and tell us more?
    (france wasnt included in that though)

  • Comment number 18.

    12. At 12:33pm on 28 Oct 2010, londonsound wrote:


    The EU budget must be trimmed just the same as our own UK budget has been trimmed. Why should we pay a huge increase to Eurocrats when we are suffering swinging cuts?

    Our Government must inform the EU that we will reduce our payments by 10%. The EU needs us sufficiently not to call our bluff and throw us out, so by taking bold action the Government should be able to free up much needed money for the UK.

    And what if the EU says it'll be short of money? Point out that so are we, and we are not in a position to subsidise it.

    Mike Solomons

    ---------------------------

    They would have to call our bluff on that because the EU isnt stable. They feared giving greece a bailout would make everyone else want one and if we reduce our money then others will want to too.

    The EU is unfortunately a poor kindergarden of kids from various countries who will never share or get on. And we give them money for that!

  • Comment number 19.

    heh. The EU are such trolls.

    During a period of austerity throughout Europe generally, they are trying to increase their budget by much more than inflation.

    It will be interesting to see how Dave presents this to the public.

  • Comment number 20.

    12. At 12:33pm on 28 Oct 2010, londonsound wrote:

    The EU budget must be trimmed just the same as our own UK budget has been trimmed. Why should we pay a huge increase to Eurocrats when we are suffering swinging cuts?

    Our Government must inform the EU that we will reduce our payments by 10%. The EU needs us sufficiently not to call our bluff and throw us out, so by taking bold action the Government should be able to free up much needed money for the UK.

    And what if the EU says it'll be short of money? Point out that so are we, and we are not in a position to subsidise it.

    Mike Solomons


    now if an average guy like you can think of that why cant the entire of labour.tories and the lib dems?

    everybody should seriously consider voting UKIP

  • Comment number 21.

    Why the Treaty must be changed.
    Greek debt crisis, threat for contamination other European countries, EU scrambles = temporary crisis control (the European Financial Stability Fund).
    Germany reluctant to set up the EFSF. Why?

    The EFSF expiration in 2013.
    Germany wants permanent resolution mechanism.
    To accomplish this Lisbon Treaty must be changed.
    France will back Germany.
    Other 25 EU members wary.
    Why?
    In Ireland Britain, the Czaech Republic and the Netherlands, YEARS of talking, negotiating preceeded approval of the treaty. Reopening negotiation could politically difficult.
    Status: signs are emerging SUPPORT.
    Britain WILL SUPPORT if change pertains only to the 16 countries using the the euro. Why?
    No transfer of any powers from Britain to Brussels. No referendum.
    But some see this treaty change as interferere in British affairs and will likely to oppose. (Potential destablization of the Coalition Government?)
    Finland and Sweden (among others) feel treaty-change only way to guarantee a permanent crisis mechanism.
    WHAT ARE THE RISKS IF COUNTRIES SAY YES?
    That a small tweak to allow the crisis mechanism could lead to other change proposals = chaos.
    WHAT HAPPENS IF CHANGES ARE MADE TO THE TREATY?
    Approval all 27 member states, followed by ratification each country (in some cases in a referendum).
    Here is the really important item:
    The Lisbon treaty comes within a hair's breadth of violating a clause in the current treaty against FINANCIAL BAILOUTS. It is taxpayer funded.
    Am I really supposed to believe that Britain is pro bail-out, that it wants debt crisis to fall on the taxpayers? Have we not had enough of this injustice?
    Come on, Brits, give the Lisbon Treaty Amendment, a free go.

  • Comment number 22.

    The Euro MP's have voted for an increase in one of their budgets of 85%.


    *****ENTERTAINMENT.*****

  • Comment number 23.

    21. At 1:09pm on 28 Oct 2010, BluesBerry wrote:
    Why the Treaty must be changed.
    Greek debt crisis, threat for contamination other European countries, EU scrambles = temporary crisis control (the European Financial Stability Fund).
    Germany reluctant to set up the EFSF. Why?

    The EFSF expiration in 2013.
    Germany wants permanent resolution mechanism.
    To accomplish this Lisbon Treaty must be changed.
    France will back Germany.
    Other 25 EU members wary.
    Why?
    In Ireland Britain, the Czaech Republic and the Netherlands, YEARS of talking, negotiating preceeded approval of the treaty. Reopening negotiation could politically difficult.
    Status: signs are emerging SUPPORT.
    Britain WILL SUPPORT if change pertains only to the 16 countries using the the euro. Why?
    No transfer of any powers from Britain to Brussels. No referendum.
    But some see this treaty change as interferere in British affairs and will likely to oppose. (Potential destablization of the Coalition Government?)
    Finland and Sweden (among others) feel treaty-change only way to guarantee a permanent crisis mechanism.
    WHAT ARE THE RISKS IF COUNTRIES SAY YES?
    That a small tweak to allow the crisis mechanism could lead to other change proposals = chaos.
    WHAT HAPPENS IF CHANGES ARE MADE TO THE TREATY?
    Approval all 27 member states, followed by ratification each country (in some cases in a referendum).
    Here is the really important item:
    The Lisbon treaty comes within a hair's breadth of violating a clause in the current treaty against FINANCIAL BAILOUTS. It is taxpayer funded.
    Am I really supposed to believe that Britain is pro bail-out, that it wants debt crisis to fall on the taxpayers? Have we not had enough of this injustice?
    Come on, Brits, give the Lisbon Treaty Amendment, a free go.
    --------------------------------------------------------------
    how about give a referendum a free go? instead of making us abide by rules hardly any of us now would agree too in a super state we never agreed to wasnt the EU set up for marketing etc?
    how did it turn into a super state? without anybody getting a say

  • Comment number 24.

    "7. At 12:11pm on 28 Oct 2010, scotty1694 wrote:
    3. At 12:01pm on 28 Oct 2010, Tibor wrote:
    Even the Bible is being adjusted time to time, so why not that lousy treaty when facts can't support the principles there? Carved in stone?

    this is not the same
    this will actually punish countries for stuff, that france and germany have decided to change the rules for there benefit
    they dont change the bibble to make people into sinners all of a sudden"

    Just follow the role of women throughout the step by step 'modernised' editions. You could be surprised..:)

  • Comment number 25.

    As far as England is concerned, the Lisbon Treaty should be torn up and disregarded totally. If Germany and france wish to attempt to take over the rest of mainland Europe let them go ahead, just count us out. I spelt France purposely without a capital F, as the EU always reminds me of a joke I heard on French Television by a French comedienne; "Why are the French Rods lined with trees? To shade the German army." He got a bad press the next day, but as they say many a true word is said in jest.

  • Comment number 26.

    24. At 1:30pm on 28 Oct 2010, Tibor wrote:

    "7. At 12:11pm on 28 Oct 2010, scotty1694 wrote:
    3. At 12:01pm on 28 Oct 2010, Tibor wrote:
    Even the Bible is being adjusted time to time, so why not that lousy treaty when facts can't support the principles there? Carved in stone?

    this is not the same
    this will actually punish countries for stuff, that france and germany have decided to change the rules for there benefit
    they dont change the bibble to make people into sinners all of a sudden"

    Just follow the role of women throughout the step by step 'modernised' editions. You could be surprised..:)

    to be honest i never have read the bible and never will would make as much sense as reading the koran and the scientology bible! id rather read something thats fictional and fun not a rule book that is ridiculously trivial way to long and boring!

    JESUS BACKWARDS SOUND LIKE SAUSAGE try it :)

  • Comment number 27.

    THE UK MUST HAVE A REFERENDUM ON THE LISBON / EU TREATY IMMEDIATELY.

    Gordon Brown / Labour disgust me for signing the Lisbon treaty after promising us the vote on Europe.

    Labour were a dictatorship. Now, they are a dictatorship-in-waiting.

    The UK MUST be given the EU vote and soon.

  • Comment number 28.

    This is a time for the new Government to shine and to help start restore the publics faith in politics and politicians.

    So let us have a referendum on the EU as soon as possible.

    Do not continue the dictatorship of Labour.

  • Comment number 29.

    28. At 2:06pm on 28 Oct 2010, JPublic wrote:

    This is a time for the new Government to shine and to help start restore the publics faith in politics and politicians.

    So let us have a referendum on the EU as soon as possible.

    Do not continue the dictatorship of Labour.

    ----------------------

    Out of the EU would be nice but I would be happy with this gov if they made the EU work for us. Get us perks and reduce the fuss we get from them.

    While a lot of bad comments are made about thatcher, nobody in the world beat her into submission. After years of spineless leadership (while it was labour these people are everywhere, so this isnt a slur) I hope these guys improve our world standing as Britain

  • Comment number 30.

    For all those calling for a referendum on the EU, what do you suggest that the question should be?

    Should it be the same (or similar) question as the 1975 referendum, namely:

    '"Do you think the UK should stay in the European Community (Common Market)?"

  • Comment number 31.

    Looks like the Eurocrats want to build a few more Palaces.

  • Comment number 32.

    This is a perfect opportunity for “We are all in this together” Dave to show the people of the UK that we actually do live in a democracy.

    I would now like to see a country wide referendum held on continued membership of the EU stating the following.

    1/ Do we continue full membership?
    2/ Do we continue just as a trading partner?
    3/ Do we pull out of the EU all together and explore other markets?

    That’s what I and the majority (Sorry Euro nuts) “YES” the majority of people in this country want.

    Will it happen? NO, why, well (a) we do not live in a democracy and (b) Dave and his mates know the answer would be a resounding OUT OUT OUT.

    So why don’t all you moaners out there stop voting for the same old parties and vote for a party that will actually give the people of this country a say in how it is run and get the UK out of the hated EU and free from the Franco / German club it has become.


  • Comment number 33.

    As far as I am concerned the treaty is not even legal, since most of Europe voted no and it was pushed through because one country said yes. It should be scrapped!

    BBC you are very behind the curve. Why not a debate on the housing benefits cuts. Ha, would it be that you are worried about the reaction or is it that you do not want to draw attention to it?

  • Comment number 34.

    Listen to the people. Get us out of the EU. That's what the majority want and that is why the politicians of all persuasion daren't put it to the vote.

  • Comment number 35.

    I confess to voting UKIP at the election because of the EU and immigration issue.

    We are being expected to pay more and more to the hideously wasteful EU and I become increasing angry about it.

    A year to 18 months from now, the UK will start to witness its own people being made homeless while £billions are dished out to the vile and arrogant EU from OUR taxation.

    We have not voted on this and our Politicians have no right to sign us over without our vote.

  • Comment number 36.

    30. At 2:20pm on 28 Oct 2010, Magi Tatcher wrote:

    For all those calling for a referendum on the EU, what do you suggest that the question should be?

    Should it be the same (or similar) question as the 1975 referendum, namely:

    '"Do you think the UK should stay in the European Community (Common Market)?"

    -------------------------

    Sorry I missed that by almost a decade. I also fail to see how the common market was the United States of Europe.

    I want to add that I appologise to people living in the US who may take insult at this expensive european knock off of a great country.

  • Comment number 37.

    I simply cannot beleive the naivety of some people, or indeed the BBC come to that. Girls and Boys, pay attention at the back, the "Lisbon Treaty" will of course be changed, amended, altered and generally toyed with ad infinitum. It was merely a tool to gain control, now that control has been meekly handed over, then the tool will be used, again and again, whenever the population need to be manipulated. There will be NO vote for these changes, NO approval, NO referendum. Do you understand now why it was such a terrible dreadful document, do you now understand why our national leaders, in refusing us that one final chance to preserve the right to speak for ourselves, betrayed us, not just in the short term, but betrayed our children and our childrens children to decison making in which they will have absolutely NO input whatsoever. This flawed document, not voted FOR by the population of any country (Except Ireland who were given 100 lines and told to think again until they got it right)will be like a chameleon, not only will it change, I predict that it will be in a constant state of flux, but no matter, in each of its represented forms, it will be THE LAW.

    Frightened? If you're not scared by the potential of this dreadful "European" missive, then here is my final piece of advice - you really, really should be!

  • Comment number 38.

    Another HYS opportunity for the Europhobes to mount their favourite hobbyhorse and gallop towards the horizon.
    The credit crunch has exposed weaknesses in some members of the Eurozone and the stronger economies want to introduce measures to bring financial stability to the zone.
    Cameron's coalition has a big problem with the Tory Party and the right-wing press at home over this issue. He played the Eurosceptic card to win the leadership, he has kowtowed to News International over Europe to get the support of the Sun and the Times, now he faces their irrational objection to any EU issue.
    The Europhobes gave Major a hard time in the late '90s, let's see what they do to Cameron's coalition now.

  • Comment number 39.

    No we should not have a referendum on the Proposed changes to the Lisbon treaty.

    What we should have is a referendum on the question do we want to stay in the EU ?

    No faffing about, in or out, yes or no.

    Then we will be divested of all this Euro rubbish and THERE debts.

    The UK needs the EU like a fish needs a bicycle

  • Comment number 40.

    This is a tricky one because the amendments being talked about only affects countries in the Eurozone and their levels of debt. It has no bearing on countries which have kept there own currency, such as the UK and Sweden.

    However as it requires all memebers of the EU to ratify any changes the UK could dig its heals in to ensure the EU budget gets a zero increase.

    Its also worth remembering that Cameron promised us a referendum on any further changes to the EU constitution.

  • Comment number 41.

    I would love to see it changed.
    The we could claim it didn't apply to us!!!
    I still haven't forgiven NuLiebour and Gordo Broon for promising a referendum then blatantly not giving us one.

    I think Cameron should totally disregard Lisbon until we the British electorate have had our say. This current part rewrite could give him an excuse to do so.

  • Comment number 42.

    at #4 scotty1694 wrote:
    Should we stand our ground over the propsed EU budget increases or agree to them?

    now thats a much bett topic!

    i say no to the eus plans of a budget costing us another 900m a year!

    Too late Scotty! I am afraid that by allowing the treaty to be ratified, your protests fall on stony ground, you see, UK is one vote, France/Germany is already TWO against. Can you now see why the "Lisbon Treaty" is the most terrifying document ever produced? Sorry, Scotty, control of our lives has already gone. The Lisbon Treaty will initially unite Europe, but one thing is certain, eventually, inevitably, it will destroy it.

  • Comment number 43.

    "NO taxation without representation" was the phrase coined by the Americans who wanted independence from Britain.

    Well the same applies here, if a country were to fall foul of the alleged rules changes then they would have there voting rights suspended.

    That sounds to me like a nasty Franco/German Dictatorship.

    Last time we had someone of that ilk in charge of Germany we went to war for 6yrs.

  • Comment number 44.

    I am a citizen of The European Union and proud to be so, I love everything about it, and wish successive UK goverments had looked at the German/French method of running a country then we would be a thousand times better of than we are now.

    However if the treaty needs a slight change for the better then change it by all means.

  • Comment number 45.

    The new treaty/amendment that is being talked about does not concern just the Eurozone but will affect ALL member states. Amongst other things it will mean that the British Government will have to submit its budget to Brussels for approval.

    So much for the promise of a referendum lock on exporting powers to the EU

  • Comment number 46.

    No, I do not think it should be changed, it should be aborted and we get out of the EC. let the rest of Europe fight for itself

  • Comment number 47.

    25. At 1:52pm on 28 Oct 2010, EarlyBaby Boomer wrote:
    "...a joke I heard on French Television by a French comedienne; "Why are the French Rods lined with trees? To shade the German army."..."
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    I heard on a French radio programme, about what to do with garbage now all the landfills were nearly full, a guest suggested: "Export it to the English. They will eat it."

    A fair point. It's perhaps a pity we're not so accepting of progress.





  • Comment number 48.

    # 44. At 2:47pm on 28 Oct 2010, europhile wrote:

    I am European simply because of the geographics of where I live.
    I am No1 ENGLISH and extremely proud of it
    No2 British and proud of this too
    but for the most Europeans, they wouldn't give a toss for us.
    That is a fact!

    I wish my vote to be used in favour of me and my country, and not piddled about with by un-elected bureaucrats riding on a gravy train promoting their own agendas.

  • Comment number 49.

    How can that ragtag body call on countries to be democratic when it is the biggest corrupt regime in the world.

    That wimp Cameron better get his act together.

  • Comment number 50.

    They just don't get it do they ? The inherently socialist continentals. Bleating on about the rights of citizens, dependent on the State not realising they ARE the State, Anti American but so much like them in their ambitions, The French USEU vision thing, But unlike the Americans they don't want to be entrepreneurial, take a risk or work hard. In short they think the State owes them a living. And this philosophy and culture is supported by the biggest, most inefficient, costly beaurocracy on the planet. Having lived in France give me the US anyday. Its good to be paid by results and take responsibility for your own prosperity and welfare. So to the close neighbours, and with apologies to JFK, ask not what the EU can do for you etc etc. We should never have signed up and not have ratified the Lisbon Treaty. Is this a chance to excape it I wonder ?

  • Comment number 51.

    No.11 wrote:
    Isn't it funny how the French and the Germans can mess about with the EU as much as they want when it is in their interests. Do you think there was a deal after WW II - or even during it - that after the war the French would do the politics and the Germans the economics so they could kick Britain where it hurts? Almost certainly.

    Now this is one conspirisy movie I would like to see made. The Germans and The French plotting during the war. I believe it.

  • Comment number 52.

    My message is simple:

    Balance the EU Accounts and have them signed off,and prove there is a need for further contributions from member states. If they cannot be balanced, pull out of the EU and concentrate instead on developing more worthwhile links with our Commonwealth Cousins

  • Comment number 53.

    What i find amazing about discussions regarding the EU is that no one ever posts a comment in favour of it!

  • Comment number 54.

    42. At 2:43pm on 28 Oct 2010, snarlygronkit wrote:
    at #4 scotty1694 wrote:
    Should we stand our ground over the propsed EU budget increases or agree to them?

    now thats a much bett topic!

    i say no to the eus plans of a budget costing us another 900m a year!

    Too late Scotty! I am afraid that by allowing the treaty to be ratified, your protests fall on stony ground, you see, UK is one vote, France/Germany is already TWO against. Can you now see why the "Lisbon Treaty" is the most terrifying document ever produced? Sorry, Scotty, control of our lives has already gone. The Lisbon Treaty will initially unite Europe, but one thing is certain, eventually, inevitably, it will destroy it.


    its not to late the budget and the lisbon treaty are 2 seperate issues
    this meeting is about the lisbon treaty the budget meeting is yet to come in a few weeks or months, however cameron is trying his best to stop the full 900m increase to us by ringing other eu leaders so atleast hes doing more than gordon brown would have done!

  • Comment number 55.

    how about this question

    was britain better before or after we joined the EU?
    not being alive then i cant really comment but it cant be much worse than now if it was!

  • Comment number 56.

    if you google "EU nazi" the web page listed the top spells out the comparisons.

    Read into it what you will

  • Comment number 57.

    Devised by Nazis as a forth Reich in 1944, implimented as the Common Market in the 1950's by ex Nazi's, (re Red House Report), the unvoted for EU is the biggest Quango that Cameron, Clegg & Vince need to 'CUT' ASAP to save us £ billions £.

    The Lisbon Treaty was agreed by 'Buster Brown' not me or anyone else in this country and therefore should not be recogised.

  • Comment number 58.

    53. At 3:13pm on 28 Oct 2010, Spinonthis wrote:

    What i find amazing about discussions regarding the EU is that no one ever posts a comment in favour of it!

    ---------------------

    Occasionally someone will point out the good of the EU. The problem is that the little good is burried under tonnes of problems, infighting and incompetence.

    The EU isnt good enough to be what it wants to be.

  • Comment number 59.

    The sooner we are out of the corrupt morass of mediocrity that is the EU, the better. And to those who think we would suffer for it, take a look at Norway, which is not in the EU, but has the highest wealth per capita in the civilised world.

    And to those who say that's just because they have oil, I'll remind them that we did too, but gave it away cheaply, unlike the Norwegians, in very much the same way as Gordon Brown sold all our gold reserves at the lowest price gold had seen in decades.

    Better get used to the idea that we'll never have a government (of any party) with the guts to get out of the EU, and we will always be a second-rate nation until we do.

  • Comment number 60.

    Its now quite clear that Cameron et all are/have turned into clones of Bliar and Clown - both of whom are yellow cowardly wimps. Show some guts Cameron and do what the populace want - give us the referendum you promised or get out.

  • Comment number 61.

    Yes change it how about scrapping it what a load of rubbish it is nobody pays any attention or notice to it ; remember Neville Chamberlain " I have in my hand a piece of paper " stating Hitler would not attack us ; History will always repeat itself

  • Comment number 62.

    47. At 2:57pm on 28 Oct 2010, Eddy from Waring wrote:
    25. At 1:52pm on 28 Oct 2010, EarlyBaby Boomer wrote:
    "...a joke I heard on French Television by a French comedienne; "Why are the French Rods lined with trees? To shade the German army."..."
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    I heard on a French radio programme, about what to do with garbage now all the landfills were nearly full, a guest suggested: "Export it to the English. They will eat it."

    A fair point. It's perhaps a pity we're not so accepting of progress.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    A fair point??? It all depends on what 'progress' means. Hitler made 'progress' when he invaded most of Europe and parts of Russia.

    The EU is an arrogant, wasteful monstrosity and is run by an untouchable petty-minded, minority ruling elite who have their snouts rampantly gorging on taxpayers money and is now asking for more.

    'Progress' comes in many guises. The fact that Gordon Brown refused to give us the vote on the Lisbon treaty despite it being a pre-election promise draws some parallel's with Hitler's Nazi dictatorship.


  • Comment number 63.

    Can someone tell why we are paying millions of pounds to an organisation that we don`t want to belong to ?? The EU is a glorified mess of diffrent countries doing there own thing ; allegdley !! Mr Cameron should tell them we are out ; look at the savings especially Euro MP`s salaries what the hell do they do ; time for cuts big time

  • Comment number 64.

    Changed? No scrapped and the politicians should try to create something better. How about a treaty which obliges governments to listen to the electors.

  • Comment number 65.

    I always thought that what distances the LibDems from Labour is a sense of individuality rather than the collectivist. Why then are the LibDems such slavish followers of everything Euro??
    Treaty changes and all the arcane bureacratic stuff is what keeps the Euro club members in jobs and it's what separates them from ordinary people. To want to increase the budget at a time of cutbacks shows how out of touch they are, evidenced by some Polish woman on the radio today bleating about these latest increases being agreed back in 2005!! We've had a global recession since then, not that the freeloading, expenses fiddling, gold plated pension-earning eurocrats give a damn. Oh by the way, which region has always the lowest growth rate? Yep, you've guessed it, Europe. Why am I not surprised?
    But we DO need something which we might call the EU to act strategically as a global counter to the USA and China, and in theory at least to simplify the trading rules for 27 smallish countries near each other.

  • Comment number 66.

    50. At 3:06pm on 28 Oct 2010, SPEEDTHRILLS wrote:
    "... Having lived in France give me the US anyday."
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    I'm quite sure the French must be very relieved.





  • Comment number 67.

    Of coarse the Germans and the French are going to opt for what's best for them, just like those complaining about Europe and wanting out of the E.U. think that's best for them. Very hipocritcal arguements going on here.

    The main difference between England and Germany/France is that they go for what is better for their country, the English go for what is better for individuals.

    By the way, if we're not part if the E.U. what's this tiny Island nation of England going to do, join the American? they would never have us, despite the fact that we are still paying them off for WWII!

    Which is another point, why all the reference to WWII with Germany and France. Time to grow up and move on people, the war is over (although some people seem to think otherwise). Ironic though, that even after defeat, Germany is still the engine of the E.U. just goes to show what happens when you look forward, instead of backwards, like us English!

  • Comment number 68.

    53. At 3:13pm on 28 Oct 2010, Spinonthis wrote:

    What i find amazing about discussions regarding the EU is that no one ever posts a comment in favour of it!

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Wrong, as you are apparently on so much. Here's such a post. I'm wholeheartedly in favour of it.


  • Comment number 69.

  • Comment number 70.

    I want out of the EU ASAP. Then they can do whatever they like to Lisbon Treaty.

  • Comment number 71.

    47. At 2:57pm on 28 Oct 2010, Eddy from Waring wrote:
    25. At 1:52pm on 28 Oct 2010, EarlyBaby Boomer wrote:
    "...a joke I heard on French Television by a French comedienne; "Why are the French Rods lined with trees? To shade the German army."..."
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    I heard on a French radio programme, about what to do with garbage now all the landfills were nearly full, a guest suggested: "Export it to the English. They will eat it."

    A fair point. It's perhaps a pity we're not so accepting of progress.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    Additional - you can make 'progress' in many and indeed, better ways than being held back by a hideously wasteful EU regime.

    Any idea how many billions it takes just to run the politics, the buildings, the people in charge of the EU??

    The fact that it takes billions already should be a clue that this money could be far better spent elsewhere.

    Yes, we need European agreement but just update and revise the previous EEC for trade, crime etc. We do not want or need a massively wasteful EU Parliament who are unaccountable, corrupt and sitting far away in Brussels, Strasburg and whereever else they frequently travel to clocking up costs.

    The EU is a disgrace and largely unwanted.

  • Comment number 72.

    The vast majority of people of Britain simply want to leave the EU as soon as possible! Just take a minute to read today’s reader’s comments in the Telegraph and the Daily Mail and see for yourselves what people think about the EU.

    Mr. Cameron, we do not want to tinker with the Lisbon treaty, we want to leave the fraudulent dictatorship called the European Union immediately!

  • Comment number 73.

    I think I'll withdraw from this "foamerfest" and leave the troupe to their tribal, membership-affirming chantings.

    It doesn't matter whether the utterances make sense, only that they're all in unison.



  • Comment number 74.

    Britain should not agree to any changes without the referendum promised by Messers Cameron and co.
    Once again they in Europe are showing us what an undemocratic,bully boy,organization it is.

  • Comment number 75.

    Yes it should be changed, it should be rewritten without the UK.
    We would save a heap of money not being in it - just our annual net contribution is enough to double our armed forces
    We would save a heap of regulation - much of it not needed - and open ourselves up for more inward investment that currently goes to China et al.
    We would stop the stupid 'have to buy foreign' policy implemented as a bad and unneccesary version of the EU directives and invest in UK jobs.
    We would be in control of our own laws not rubber stamping 'directives'.
    We would be able to kick out leaders that fail to do what we want, instead of watching while Germany/France rule us via Brussels (not that I dislike either the Germans or the French but we defeated the Germans and rescued the French yet seem now to be their whipping boy).
    We would still be able to trade - after all China is not in the EU and manages to trade thanks very much - as does India, Africa, USA...


    GET US OUT!

  • Comment number 76.

    And another thing!!

    Did the Auditors ever sign off the audit for expenses for the MEP's from a couple of years ago??

    I knew that they had refused to do so because of the lack of transparency, lack of receipts and unaccountable expenditure.

  • Comment number 77.

    So who is our overlord these days? I thought it was that little Belgian damp rag chappie. Emperor van Rompouy needs to crack a few heads and get the apparatchiks out to quell this turbulence. Else the Europlebs masses will be talking dangerous stuff like 'democracy' next.

  • Comment number 78.

    Two points come to mind:
    1. If Treaties can be re-written as & when to suit some Members then what is any Treaty worth?
    2. Treaties cannot be binding for all times because circumstances change, members can & will fall out over time &, in the past, this can be a Causus Belli.
    It is a difficult one but the overriding consideration I would have thought is always Self-Interest & Mutually beneficial advantages &, if these obtain, then any number of Treaty revisions are acceptable.

  • Comment number 79.

    I dont know the answer becuase I really do not give a monkeys about it. All I know is I am English, not British and not European and becuase we are in this EU we have to let all and sundry in to take our jobs and to bail out other countrys that I also dont give a monkeys about. Im sure I will be called a rascist or bigot but this is HYS and I am entitled to my opinion. What is this obessesion with being part of somthing. I dare you Cameron call an referendum on EU membership and I will guarantee the majority of English citizens will vote "OUT"

  • Comment number 80.

    Well before the election when talking about Europe Cameron spoke like John Wayne on steroids trying to convince people how tough he can be when fighting Britains corner. With that in mind I trust he will come away from this meeting having secured at the very least a freeze on our country's contribution.
    Anything less will just confirm that he is nothing more than a weak little man who likes to try and talk tough and just like he did in America when he described all the British ex servicemen and womens contributions in world war two as nothing more than junior partners, will do our reputation abroad a lot of damage.Though until that time we have to give him the benefit of the doubt and hope he can at last do something right.

  • Comment number 81.

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    67. At 3:35pm on 28 Oct 2010, Ben wrote:

    By the way, if we're not part if the E.U. what's this tiny Island nation of England going to do, join the American? they would never have us, despite the fact that we are still paying them off for WWII!

    Which is another point, why all the reference to WWII with Germany and France. Time to grow up and move on people, the war is over (although some people seem to think otherwise). Ironic though, that even after defeat, Germany is still the engine of the E.U. just goes to show what happens when you look forward, instead of backwards, like us English!

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    There are plenty of nations trade with this 'EU' its not a members club only.
    As ref your WW2 comments.... look up the "Red House Report" This may possibley explain the reason for the German 'engine' as you put it.
    Food for thought ?

  • Comment number 82.

    I reckon Al-Qaeda are missing a trick here.
    Strategically target Brussels/Strsbourg rather than innocent commuter trains and they'd get most of Europe onside.

  • Comment number 83.

    The sooner we have a referendum for the withdrawl from Europe, the better.
    I don't see why my taxs should be used to support Johnny foreigner

  • Comment number 84.

    Should the Treaty be changed? No, it should be scrapped.

    If anyone needed any further reason to justify our withdrawal from the EU, then the sick joke that is the current proposed budget increase is it! In the current economic climate, how can it be right to be building a 'Presidential Palace' at a cost of god knows how many millions that will contribute absolutely nothing to the well being of the EU citizens? And, how can it be right that this increase will also be used to increase the entertainment budget! I think we could all much better use these increases for our own benefit. My own entertainment budget could certainly do with a boost!!

    Sad to say, the EU has become everything that most of us feared it would - a huge expense for little or no benefit other than for those who work directly for its institutions! If only Ted Heath had told the truth all those years ago then we wouldn't be paying the price now!

  • Comment number 85.

    I seem to recall that we should have had a referendum on the Lisbon treaty. I also recall that the treaty was signed despite opposition by the then Labour Aministration by Baroness Scotland because Prudence was to scared to sign it. That means that the programme was not democratic. Should the Lisbon Treaty be ammended- yes totally- in fact since if challenged it would have little validity it should be scrapped!!

  • Comment number 86.

    As I was able to re-train and re-skill thanks to EU Regional Development funds made available to former Steel workers(our Chancellor at the time was cutting training grants to fund tax cuts for the better off), I will always speak in favour of the EU.
    As I lived and worked in Germany for over four years, I will always point out to people how much better things are done there and in most EU countries compared to the UK.
    UK politicians refused the opportunity to join and shape the Common Market when it was created in the '50s , they chose opt-outs instead of involvement as the EU was being developed and stood outside while the Euro was being created.
    Our political class(of all parties) has post-WWII looked across the Atlantic for their social and economic models ,while our closest(in all ways) neighbours have built a fairer, more equitable society.

  • Comment number 87.

    67. At 3:35pm on 28 Oct 2010, Ben wrote:
    paying off the US for WW2
    -------------------------
    Deasr Ben,
    We have paid off our debts to the US vis-a-vis WWII -two years' ago thereabouts.
    The US was always envious of our Empire & did everything possible to undermine it, which was why we had to pay the US for our borrowings whilst they gave Germany & Japan free assistance & loans.
    We now have this millstone of the EU & unfair contributions to boot. I believe that we are a fair, courageous people, possessed of a beautiful Island & values that will stand the test of time & that is why we will prevail & I am not disheartened!

  • Comment number 88.

    Black Pearl#81; Ah from the mouth of Babes- you have nearly made the connection. The reason that this country keeps on harping on about the war is because it has to justify it's current position with the fact that it actually faught a war, that need never have been faught and against all the odds France and Germany now rule the roost.

    Politically we will stay in Europe because we are America's in to the EU. Germany deals with the economics and France deals with the Foreign policy. There is is therefore little room for Lil' ole' Britain. Since Churchill was determined to get the US involved it follows that we are controlled by the the Good Ole' US of A. The only real answer for this country is to go back to EFTA status (EFTA was the European Free Trade Association)which meant no political ties, but that would throw us onto the US unless we decide to pull out of the agreements we have with the US. Very diffcult but possible. Incidentally since the English have no say in these things its a matter of the British going backwards- the english merely pay for it.

  • Comment number 89.

    All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

  • Comment number 90.

    @ 86 Leftieagitator - While your experience has been a good one, we do not need to have an EU parliament like we have to retain agreements that have helped in your case.

    We can still have a modern day version of the EEC for such agreements and training programmes, it just needs to be updated / modernised.

    It is only the minority ruling elite that have set up the monsterous EU to favour themselves and create billions in waste and I fully agree, we should be closer to our European neighbours just not in the current manner, it is massively wasteful and the MEP's are unaccountable.

    Have European agreements by all means just not an EU parliament centered in Brussels, Strasburg or wherever else they determine their expensive, plush offices to be.

  • Comment number 91.

    86. At 4:26pm on 28 Oct 2010, LeftieAgitator wrote:
    As I was able to re-train and re-skill thanks to EU Regional Development funds made available to former Steel workers(our Chancellor at the time was cutting training grants to fund tax cuts for the better off), I will always speak in favour of the EU.
    As I lived and worked in Germany for over four years, I will always point out to people how much better things are done there and in most EU countries compared to the UK.
    UK politicians refused the opportunity to join and shape the Common Market when it was created in the '50s , they chose opt-outs instead of involvement as the EU was being developed and stood outside while the Euro was being created.
    Our political class(of all parties) has post-WWII looked across the Atlantic for their social and economic models ,while our closest(in all ways) neighbours have built a fairer, more equitable society.
    ------------------------------------------

    yet we are up there for paying the most to the EU and france and germany etc get mopre money back for farming etc than us.
    personally europe has forgot what britain did for them all especially the toads we freed them and we had to pay all the money back alone yet they got free help so id say give them the V and lets focus on ourselfs i really couldnt care less about how the french etc live i live the way the british live the porblem is everyone thinks we shoud model ourselfs on another country and we were doing fine before that lets just stay BRITISH not european or american we have 0 in common with germany and france etc anyhow apart from a love for football!

  • Comment number 92.

    I think that it should be abolished. The problem is you have a European government who have nothing to do so they will keep changing the treaty all the time as they want to try their best to justify their overly inflated salaries. They are so bored that they decide that prisoners should be allowed to vote in general elections and that we should stop using gender adjectives in our language. What a joke!! I also think that Europe is becoming a dictatorship and I totally begrudge giving 1p of tax to the EU when all they do with it is bail out countries like Greece and then propose that all these Eastern European countries can join and then sponge off the Western countries. Also this who issue of power being passed to Brussels. Well, just don't do it and take back what Labour gave them. Also, what can they really do if we do not go along with what Brussels dictates.

  • Comment number 93.

    Also, like in this country because I pay my taxes out of my wages and I receive nothing in return but the threat of cut services which in this situation people have to accept, I do not accept that we have to pay the EU over £1bn a year!! What do we get for this? Oh of course, Greece got it and they are still leaving their workforce unemployed!!

  • Comment number 94.

    89. At 4:37pm on 28 Oct 2010, Peter Bridgemont wrote:
    re-Germany
    --------------
    Please remain in Germany. Deutschland uber alles!
    I thought we fought a war to rid the likes of you of this fancy.

  • Comment number 95.

    The EU, run by the French paid for by the Germans and British.

    Unless controlled this bureaucracy will grow and grow, that's what bureaucracies do.

    It is time for the people of Europe to be allowed to say no to further political expansion.

  • Comment number 96.

    Time methinks to start using stronger terminology in the EU parliament. As a pensioner for example, I have never, ever had an increase beyond 4% so if I can get by, so can the EU! I think the phrase is 'get stuffed', does that translate in EU corridors?

  • Comment number 97.

    79. At 4:08pm on 28 Oct 2010, SaveourCountry
    I wouldn't say you're a racist or a bigot, just ill-informed.

  • Comment number 98.

    If the EU gets it's way the ConDems plans will go up in smoke. Looks like they forgot to factor this in when deciding on their slash and burn policies.

    Way to go Call Me Dave!!

  • Comment number 99.

    89. At 4:37pm on 28 Oct 2010, Peter Bridgemont wrote:
    Predictably the let's all follow USA. bash Europe, lot are out in force here. No surprise as our press is mainly US owned and we tend to follow it. As I've lived there I could say Germany, for all its faults and annoyances is far better run than UK and most people I've met who've actually lived in different countries, not just made it up, find it the best to live in and bring up kids. We could learn masses from them. It's also their attitude, despite their fussiness over some things, of Leben und Leben lassen; (live and let live) I've found in most of the continent. Here there's too much defensiveness, repression. and hostility to anything different.
    I'm not saying every point against the EU is wrong, but it's clear to me- this page rubs in in almost painfully, that as a nation we do not really have anything better to offer, or even as good.


    rubbish rubbish rubbish
    hardly anybody has said we should follow the USA i think you will find people want away from the US and away from the EU we want to be our own country again. and you saying the british dont live and let live?
    have you seen the news today the most common name for babys in britain is not mohammed or a variation of it!
    we let the mulsins poles etc all get on with it live and let live as you say but they all just take the pee and we are to full to keep taking them which it entirely the EU's fault anyhow

  • Comment number 100.

    72. At 3:47pm on 28 Oct 2010, Gwynn wrote:

    The vast majority of people of Britain simply want to leave the EU as soon as possible! Just take a minute to read today’s reader’s comments in the Telegraph and the Daily Mail and see for yourselves what people think about the EU.

    Mr. Cameron, we do not want to tinker with the Lisbon treaty, we want to leave the fraudulent dictatorship called the European Union immediately!


    The YouGov poll in September 2010 showed that 47% would vote for Britain to leave the European Union.

    http://today.yougov.co.uk/politics/eu-referendum

    Reader's comments in the Daily Telegraph and the Daily Mail are hardly representative of the UK as a whole.

 

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