Do libraries have a future?
Fewer people are visiting their local library according to new figures from the government, with the number of weekly library goers in England going down by 32% in five years. When was the last time you visited your local library?
The government claims the figures show that the service must be "reshaped", and wants to encourage supermarkets and pubs to start lending books. One pub in the Yorkshire Dales already doubles as a library may be a vision of the future for many communities.
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Campaigners fear that up to 1000 libraries could close as local councils try to save money. The culture minister, Ed Vaizey says books need to be available in places where people go.
Would you be more likely to visit your library if it was in a pub or supermarket? Where else would you like to see a library? Should there be more mobile libraries? How can we encourage more people to use their library? Do you regularly use your local library?
Thank you for your comments. This debate is now closed.
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~13~RS~)
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Hospitals -v- Libraries?
No brainer
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Not only that, but as an avid PDA reader, the day of the library is passing.
This myth that it is still the vibrant hub of the community needs to be stilled.
We are facing an era of unprecedented cust in Public Spending. The axe should fall squarely on the library and all other minority use establishments. If you want it, you pay for it.
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For people conducting research projects, the average town library is pretty useless - you are better off using a combination university libraries and the internet.
For literature, the relative cost of books these days is so cheap people just buy them instead of borrowing - My wife took 8 books on our last holiday and left 6 of them behind!
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Yes libraries do have a future. I love visiting the libraries but the quality and selection of books in the library are limited - a disappointment. The library near my house does not cater to my needs. Times have changed and the library facilities and management have not changed. I like to see more rooms for studying, activities for children throughout the year, activities for adults and bringing authors to interact with the readers.
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The education system has contributed to the decline in library usage. Most children are now encouraged by schools to search for information on the internet at school or at home, rather than visit their local library. If children don't get used to visiting their local library the'll never use it as an adult.
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Like doctors' surgeries, libraries need to be there for their clientelle when they have spare time. Certainly where I live the library is open throughout the working day and closed in the evenings. This means I'm unable to use the library.
Local councils should have a root and branch review of its services and decide whether the services are delivering the right product at the right time. Evening opening would bring me back to my library, and I'm sure many others would follow.
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the problem with local libraries is that they cannot compete with the availability of books online - why would I visit the limited selection of books in my local library when I can often get what I want secondhand from Amazon for pennies (often). In the local library I have to tackle the complicated filing system, limited selection, limited loan time and the risk of a fine if I don't have the time to drop the book back on time.
If the Library was in the supermarket, and open supermarket hours, then this would be a start, but I'm not sure this is the answer.
I think we have to accept that the days of the public library as a resource for all books are limited- the system should retract and focus more tightly on reference type books- novels and childrens books can be picked up so cheaply that there is no need for a free service.
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Libraries appear to be another British institution that many people love, but hardly anyone uses anymore. Should we collectively fund something that cannot justify its usefulness?
I say this sadly as a fan of libraries...
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In a household with literally thousands of books, my daughter has recently taken to visiting the town library - because it's the county theology node and she's exploring different religions (husband and I being Christian, most theology books here are about that faith). For fiction, she has plenty here both in 'dead tree' and e-book.
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A lot of educational books are £30 upwards, many of which are bought to look at perhaps one specific part in the book. In this respect, libraries are essential.
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As they are they have no future. I have no idea where my nearest library is.
It would be pretty easy to resurrect the library in my opinion though because they are still seen as a place of knowledge even if the selection of books is limited.
If workshops were set up teaching skills which you dont normally learn then they could be a place of education and knowledge. My girlfriend is into crafts and making things which is cheaper and often nicer than bgoing out and buying. Skills such as lock picking or electronics or fixing small day to day machinery are very useful to young adults uncertain of their desired career and can point people away from mainstream subjects.
This is just a suggestion though
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I think the library is a good place. For thoes who are studying, school children, thoses who love a good read! For reference it is fantastic. I haven't been for years, but may need it soon as will be starting my NVQ III in September & may well need it for reference etc. My other half go every 2 weeks & try to bring the kids too - one 'plays up,' the other one doesn't want to go but, once there is ok and pick a few books most are returned UNREAD.
If a library was placed in a supermarket? No, that wouldn't help me, as I don't go to the supermarket to look for a book to read. I don't go to the pub.
Now a mobile library, yes, if one came on my street... I would certainly want to use it.
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@David Horton: why put hospitals up against libraries? It achieves nothing, they are very different services. Oh, and 74.9% of children aged 5-11 are using the library,which suggests that some of those parents are visiting too.Young people, from birth to University age and into the world of work, are getting stuffed by this Government,why not take away their libraries too?
@C Spybey: vicious circle isn't it? Successive governments slash library budgets - they are forced to buy fewer books and try to provide the myriad of other services expected of and needed from them (as you suggest) - people complain that they are outdated and useless because they can't provide.
As a university librarian, I despair at the attacks on the public service, and school libraries. Many of you have no idea of the impact this has on our users in academic libraries! They don't know how a library works or what a librarian does, and what training they go through to get that professional role. They don't understand how to search, access and use information and research effectively or ethically, they have no clue about licensing or copyright, some can't even grasp the concept of borrowing something and returning it by a given date. If they regularly used a library from a young age, they would be better prepared in their future jobs and academic careers, in so many ways. Some of our users seem to think we are a glorified free bookshop, with a copy of the core text for every student who demands it, and they can return them whenever they feel like it. Fines? Why would we dare to do that? They are paying customers of HE after all.
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2. At 10:33am on 24 Aug 2010, David Horton wrote: "if you want it, you pay for it"
Most people don't want the war in Afghanistan. Think on.
3. At 10:44am on 24 Aug 2010, Billy wrote: "For literature, the relative cost of books these days is so cheap people just buy them instead of borrowing"
I wish I had your level of disposable income.
"The culture minister, Ed Vaizey, says books need to be available in places where people go"
Primark & William Hills it is, then.
I use my local library regularly. I avoid pubs & supermarkets whenever possible. How cost effective are mobile libraries? Maybe they could be combined with ice-cream vans?
People could be encouraged to use their libraries more if there were any evidence to suggest reading helped you get on in life. When you see or hear an English [not foreign] Premiership footballer interviewed, the evidence is firmly to the contrary.
Maybe MPs, such as the cultured Mr Vaizey, would care to lend books from their local surgery office? That might encourage people to attend them!
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No, I would not visit a library if it was relegated to a pub or supermarket.
Mobile libraries tour our vicinity, but for me, even that's only accessible if our wild winter weather permits. So for many years I've not visited either styles of local library. However, the added beauty of them is the quiet - how that can be achieved in a supermarket or pub poses a mystery in itself.
As an aside, I thought libraries came about to give the general public access to books they could not otherwise afford. In any case, nowadays, I prefer to buy a clean, untouched, fresh book to read in my own home with no thought of rushing through it before the 'return date' is reached.
As far as councils trying to save money, perhaps they should start in their own offices and make do with current computers, vehicles, bin lorries, etc., that are frequently renewed. Again, govt/council proposed savings/cuts are hitting those who can ill-afford to lose them.
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I would gladly use the local library more, if it actually had anything of interest to me. Due to a hectic work schedule I rarely get into town during the week or Saturday day time (and not open evenings or Sundays) but on a couple of occasions of late I have gone in, and not been able to find anything which appeals. I am an avid reader with a sizeable collection spanning from Homer and Dante to Forster, Hemingway, Terry Pratchett and Douglas Adams, so I am in no-way constrained to my choices. But in looking around, the options seemed to mainly be biography's of z list celebrities, romantic fiction, or childrens books. Thankfully it does fare better on the non-fiction side, and I have been able to borrow very useful books on website design and Yoga. If you want young adults to use the libraries, they need books which will appeal, not the same mills and boon which have been there since it opened in the 80's.
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I am now retired, but throughout my life I have found libraries usually poor.
The subjects which interest me tend to be technical subjects. Often such books were always very outdated - sometimes available books were published 20 years earlier!! Often the right books were not even available.
Another problem is that many books are required at hand on a permanent basis for reference. Also, technology moves at such a pace these days that books would have to be replaced annually.
Maybe libraries have a place for those interested in (say) literature. Otherwise they are not worth keeping.
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The temptation to raise an outcry, purely for nostalgia, is almost overwhelming. My first impulse was to cry "not the libraries!" But then I paused to think how long it's been since I actually used one, probably about 10 years ago at least. Many of the services libraries offer are now readily available elsewhere &,in the case of the internet, in most peoples homes. As others have pointed out the library is no longer necessary as a place of study for students either.
It would be a shame to lose them completely, especially with so many being housed in such beautiful buildings & I think a decline in childrens library services would be a very sad thing (but again, could be the nostalgia talking there) However if funding is tight there are probably a lot of other, more essential, public services that can use the cash.
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"In a household with literally thousands of books, my daughter has recently taken to visiting the town library - because it's the county theology node and she's exploring different religions (husband and I being Christian, most theology books here are about that faith). For fiction, she has plenty here both in 'dead tree' and e-book."
I love the false distinction here between faith books and fiction.
Anyway, with the internet there really is no longer a need for libraries. They are very rarely used by anyone I know and the one we have in my city is open at the stupidest hours. The money could be better spent else where.
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The only library I use is the university library. I buy all the paperbacks that I want to read, and if I need some information I either use the internet or look it up in a relevant textbook at uni. No local library is capable of holding all the specialist books needed by a student, and at any rate, the local library isn't open late enough. I would say that a library in a poorer community with low broadband take up would be useful, but it would have to have very good broadband and decent spec computers, otherwise it is not worth running. Lets face it, no one likes using cheap and nasty old computers that take an age to open a simple web page or word document. Almost like a public internet cafe. Give everyone a user name and password when they sign up and a small amount of disk storage space allowance (say, around the 5GB) for items like word documents, spreadsheets etc. You may argue that this would cost too much, but with a 2TB hard drive now costing not much more than £100 you could store hundreds of users worth of data for relatively little cost, even if you are doubling up your hard drives for RAID 0 protection. This sort of facility would obviously be pointless in wealthy areas, as computers in the home are commonplace in these environments. Perhaps the government should be quite strict in this respect, with areas of high broadband take up not offered these facilities, whilst areas of poverty and poor internet access are offered.
I know my younger brother has used the larger library in Paisley for school projects from time to time, but Google is so much quicker than waiting on a bus, especially on a weekend.
I would suggest integrating libraries with local schools but the issue of any old person wandering through a school building is pretty significant.
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No library is going to have an incredible selection of books, but that's due to limitations of budget and space. But the amazing thing about libraries is that they can track down and get a copy of any book, magazine, or article from anywhere: I've many times used my local library to obtain a copy of some obscure out-of-print book: the only alternative would be to scour the internet, and hope that a) someone has a copy that they happen to be selling right at that particular moment you need it, and b) it's a reasonable price, which for many older books it isn't.
I can't see pub staff being willing to do this for you, or even having the knowledge of where to look.
The really important thing about libraries is that they're free! Commercial businesses won't lend you books for free, you can bet on it. Do you want to live in a country where knowledge is only available to those who can afford it? I certainly don't.
Despite Google's efforts to own everything ever published, the book isn't going to go away, and libraries remain an essential conduit for getting books to people who want to read. Maybe numbers are falling, maybe the system needs to change a bit, but closing the libraries is not the answer. I suspect that the pub in Yorkshire that doubles as a library does so because their local council closed the library they had, and the locals still felt a need for the service. The problem is politicians who see anything that doesn't make money as useless: but knowledge is a different kind of investment, even more valuable than money.
As a suggestion, maybe libraries could interact more with authors, organise speaking tours, book-signings etc, in the same way that many bookshops do?
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I use my local library, not often to borrow books from, but as somewhere to sit quietly at lunchtime whilst I read my own book. As a student I found it a vital resource.
From a social viewpoint I find them essential. Young children whose parents can't afford books should not be denied an introduction to the love of reading at an early age that I was given. My parents took me as a child and I borrowed books frequently, as well as buying me then from charity shops. It's ironic that we complain that education in this country is insufficient but are discussing closing down libraries that can be used to support formal education and to help adults continue their life-long learning.
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1. At 10:28am on 24 Aug 2010, David Horton wrote:
Hospitals -v- Libraries?
No brainer
Hospitals contain libraries to enable them to offer a book trolley service.
No brain.
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You can download a book to an iPad, but can you chat to someone whilst you do it and learn something from them? No.
Go on, visit your library. Talk to someone interesting. You might like it.
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When i was growing up(in the fifties and sixties!) there were three libraries within our medium sized (and well kept) council estate alone. They ran general knowledge competitions for local primary schools(in the evening!) and were focal points of the estate. The library habit has stuck with me. I don't think that computers have taken over from books really. People sitting at keyboards does give a sort of illusion of learning ,but 'advancing' through a book is unbeatable i think. I hate the labelling of libraries today as 'Community Library'etc., 'community' being the most over misused word today. They are specific places for borrowing books and learning. Is there a problem with that? I imagine many children and adults today can't find a quiet place to read, that's partly what libraries are for isn't it? The 'low intellect' content of the majority of broadcast tv does give a worrying ,i hope incorrect, picture of British society's level of intelligence today. If libraries close down ,i wouldn't trust the broadcast media or the internet to provide the deep level of required learning provided by, say, a large text book. I just think books do lot of things better ,as indeed do many 'old fashioned' methods of study and true learning. I'd say that over the years the governments have conspired to de-educate the population slowly but surely by rewarding mediocrity. With the number of foriegn students filling our universities now, and taking their(our?)knowledge home with them ,it's no wonder Britain feels like a 'sinking ship' sometimes. I'm sure privatisation will rear it's head somewhere, but council taxes are paid and people have a right to expect something for them, like public libraries! No services ,no council tax therefore no fat public sector pensions.. that's the deal.If we can't afford what we had back in the fifties then we must be really in a bad way, and i think that we most probably are!
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I use my local library quite a lot. I know I can buy books quite cheap from Amazon etc and I do buy quite a lot of books too but I'm rapidly running out of space for my books so I try and cut down on the amount of books that I buy. If I go to a library then I can pick up books that take my fancy and return them when I've finished with them. No space taken up on my book shelves and if I think that a book I've picked is a load of rubbish, well then I haven't wasted my money either!
As I'm a voracious reader and go through books like polo mints I find the library a pretty valuble service.
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What a sad lot of comments. We are so fortunate here, a main library, a library in the village, staffed by volunteers, books supplied by main library, open 1 afternoon a week and also a mobile library on 1 day a week.
The main library hosts events fro pre school children, the nearby primary school takes classes in to read and also to borrow books, there is hire of talking books, several computers and a selection of daily newspapers.
New books by popular authors are always ordered and it is possible to source books from other libraries in the county and also from other counties. Used books are for sale at less than charity shop prices.
Books can be kept for several weeks providing they are renewed before the due date
I borrow numerous books both by internet reservations and off the shelf, it would be a grievous loss if it were to close.
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At 10:44am on 24 Aug 2010, Billy wrote:
For literature, the relative cost of books these days is so cheap people just buy them instead of borrowing - My wife took 8 books on our last holiday and left 6 of them behind!
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Paperbacks cost upwards of five pounds and hardbacks tend to start at fifteen pounds-hardly cheap. As a family we visit our local library nearly every Saturday, our kids always leave with a few books each and sometimes a DVD. I for one would mourn the passing of libraries if it were to happen, not just because of the effect it would have on me and my family but also as it would serve as a clear indication of the decline in attitudes and morals within our society.
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I certainly hope that libraries are not in danger of extinction. I've always enjoyed the occassional visit to my library. I like the ease of being able to walk into a building whenever there is nothing else to do, have a sit down and read just about any book of my choice in peace, and all for free.
Regarding what some previous comment said about having to make people start paying for a subscription, I doubt that such a scheme would save the libraries. People won't want to start paying to use the library after generations of being able to do so for free, and I also doubt that those who will, would be sufficient enough in numbers to make a library a profitable private enterprise. Besides, why should it be that only people with money should have the ability to educate themselves? For some people, the public library is the only source of information they have.
It's true though that libraries must adapt to changing times if they are to survive, and some have already made a start - the computers they now have for instance. I have no means of internet access outside the house, so these are a useful addition if you need to use the internet, but are away from home. Instead of my local town library, I prefer my nearest major city library in Bristol for it's larger selection of books. So maybe it is only the bigger, more resourceful libraries that have a future.
One change I would like to see libraries make, is for them to go back to the days when they were places of serious study, for example by re-enforcing the old "quiet please" rule. Anyone noticed that libraries are noisier than they used to be, what with all the screaming schoolchildren and the mobile phones?
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They should have a future in some form or other. They need to adapt.
I dont need to borrow a book from the Library that I can buy for £1 off ebay. A technical or reference book (last i wanted was £170 to buy)Obviously a special order, the library look blank. Say they will "try" pay £2. Sometimes you hear no more sometimes they can get it sometimes you have to read it at the library because you cant take it out, pointless really.
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Libraries have had their day. The internet has superceded them as a place of reference. When libraries were started, people couldn't afford books, that's no longer the case. Those that read fictional or factual books for pleasure can buy them cheaply.
A huge problem with traditional books loaned from libraries is infection. That puts me off. Public library books harbour all manner of infectious agents and new fangled RFID tags in the books mean you can't microwave them anymore to make them sanitary.
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Libraries have a past - no future.
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14. At 11:12am on 24 Aug 2010, None Of The Above wrote:
2. At 10:33am on 24 Aug 2010, David Horton wrote: "if you want it, you pay for it"
Most people don't want the war in Afghanistan. Think on.
>>> Meaningless comparison and if you don't understand what I meant, I'll explain. There are essential services and there are luxuries. With the unprecedented levels of informmation access available today, the concept of a library has become a luxury. You don't need a libray to live, therefore like any luxury, if you want it, you pay for it.
@David Horton: why put hospitals up against libraries? It achieves nothing, they are very different services. Oh, and 74.9% of children aged 5-11 are using the library,which suggests that some of those parents are visiting too.Young people, from birth to University age and into the world of work, are getting stuffed by this Government,why not take away their libraries too?
>>> Because (sigh) there is NO MONEY! This is nothing to do with them being different services. When faced with the stark choice of closing down wards or closing one of the thousands of libraries, I cannot think that even you, a librarian would support the closure of a hospital ward.
Also, I query your 74.9% of children still using libraries. This is a figure worthy of a new labour spin doctor. What you are saying is that 74.9% of children HAVE used or visted a library. Er, does this include school 9and co-located) libraries? If you shut the libraries, you could still donate all the relevant year books to the school libraries in Primary schools and then 100% of 5-11 year olds would be able to access them.
So as an academic, surely you agree that my solution would increase the amount of children reading in an environment that is safe and supervised.
I am not anti-book. I have a couple of thousand myself, scattered over my house. I just consider that the library is an outdated concept for a raft of reasons, not least of which is that when faced with stark choices, we have to concentrate on those servcies that are essential rather than desirable.
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I haven't used a library in years but I think they provide an excellent service for those who use them.
Maybe more could be done to target certain individuals - from my experience at University the library became inundated with students revising during exam time. This could be done for local libraries with a secondary school nearby.
Maybe the library could hold classes too. Nothing extraordinary, just a reading class for youngsters.
People need to think less that the library is just a place to source books and more of a place where learning and knowledge can be sought.
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Perhaps if more people spent time in library's, we would have less need for hospitals ?
And as for putting library's in supermarkets, please would someone shoot the idiot who suggested that as they obviously need to get out more, perhaps to a library.
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" We are facing an era of unprecedented cust in Public Spending. The axe should fall squarely on the library and all other minority use establishments. If you want it, you pay for it."
Err.... I thought the £2000 a year in council tax thats forced out of me IS paying for this sort of thing! Funny how we're having 'unprecidented cuts in public spending' but no corresponding cuts in taxation.
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This coalition seems to have a,to be generous, Edwardian world view. Their proposal for libraries seems to be to return to the time of the Boots library, where people paid a fee to borrow books from their local chemist.
The common thread of this government is to make what was free at the point of use, i.e. paid for from general taxation or local council tax ,chargeable.
This is the Tory 'choice' agenda, where choice is determined by your ability to pay.
It also matches the Orange Book Lib-Dem's, private provision of public services agenda too.
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23. At 11:26am on 24 Aug 2010, Magi Tatcher wrote:
1. At 10:28am on 24 Aug 2010, David Horton wrote:
Hospitals -v- Libraries?
No brainer
Hospitals contain libraries to enable them to offer a book trolley service.
No brain.
>>>
Yeah, I feel well and truly found out...
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University libraries and large city libraries tend to be fantastic with a wide range of books, periodicals, archive materials and reference tools. Unfortunately local libraries have been so poorly funded since the 1980s that they're no longer worth the cost and rarely provide the service they should.
Add in the competition from the internet as a reference tool and it appears that the days of local libraries are numbered.
Rather than selling them off to supermarkets and clone pub chains I'd much prefer it if the libraries were to merge with the post office. If you could have a post office counter in the library it would make it a central community hub and information centre.
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#14 You can easily buy a used paperback on amazon for 1 penny (plus about £2 postage). You don't have to be Roman Ambramovich to afford a book. Once you buy it its yours to do with as you wish... keep it, lend it to a friend or family member or do what I do and give it to Oxfam.
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Not really, any information you'd want to find in a library is available on the internet at a moment's notice, in an easier-to-search format. Local libraries don't really have a spectacular range; they're fine if you're looking for a book for GCSE-level knowledge, but mostly fail at A-level, and completely fail at degree-level books. I suppose that's what university libraries are for, though.
The only real use local libraries now have, are the (often limited) computer facilities. When I was at school, 10 years ago, they had the foresight to scrap most of the library facilities to make room for a large computer lab, that the students could use to do their coursework. Perhaps this is the future of our local town libraries - glorified internet cafes.
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I visit my library on a regular basis, between 2-3 times a month depending on how quickly I get through my books. My library has just had over £2m spent on doing it up and during that time the temporary library has managed to offer a fantastic service. I often get brand new books from the library, there is a great selection to choose from and their DVD section has the best choice of world cinema - there is nothing to match it in the shops where I live.
The libraries in our district have been updated and you can renew and order books on line and one of them is even open on a Sunday, there is also a cafe. They have adapted to meet the needs of the users and that together with the fact that where I live is an affluent middle class town, where the library is just part of the fabric of life and it is where we have all been brought up to go to for our books means that they will probably survive. I actually find it offensive of this Government to suggest that libraries are closed down or relocated to pubs. Yep lets give yet more money to the drinks industry how do you square that one? Where will children go to get their books or listen to a story being read out to them, or will the library in the pub be an extension of some dreadful Wackey Warehouse!
It is very worrying that
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24. At 11:31am on 24 Aug 2010, Stephen wrote:
You can download a book to an iPad, but can you chat to someone whilst you do it and learn something from them? No.
Go on, visit your library. Talk to someone interesting. You might like it.
=======================================
SSSHHHH!!!! IT'S A LIBRARY!!!
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Some modern/newer books may help to attract more people. Take a look at your average IT/Computer section, you'll see plenty of books on windows 95, Office 97 & html 3.2, in other words nothing of interest.
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i have not used my local library for a few mounths because icannot find any books i wanted to read,but before that at least every week for thirty years apart from holidays keep librarys going
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I'm a great fan of the idea of a library, trouble is the book collections available do not reflect my taste, like CD-audio books when I'm on the go, or titles which might match those in the Top 10 of a certain on-line bookseller. The fiction choice matches a certain age group and who am I to say they aren't the majority users.
I recently bought version 5 of a particularly famous software and no libraries in my area even had books on versions 2, 3 or 4. Its that sort of choice that isn't being met and isn't likely to be met in the current downturn.
I think libraries will have to go extinct or specialise as archives.
On a more positive note, the exchange book bin is very lively at work and I have about 6 unreads ready to be opened.
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At 11:01am on 24 Aug 2010, callaspadeaspade wrote:
the problem with local libraries is that they cannot compete with the availability of books online - why would I visit the limited selection of books in my local library when I can often get what I want secondhand from Amazon for pennies (often). In the local library I have to tackle the complicated filing system, limited selection, limited loan time and the risk of a fine if I don't have the time to drop the book back on time.
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I can only speak for my local library but I would imagine that most libraries are now the same.
With respect to a limited selection, if my local library does not have what I'm after they will contact the other libraries within my borough and have it sent over (normally within two days). If none of the local libraries have the book I want it can be ordered in, admittedly this can take up to two weeks. Complicated filing system? just ask one of the assistants for some help (that's what they're there for) and with my local library the risk of a fine is avoided by simply renewing your books on line.
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I'm not sure that setting up libraries in pubs is a good idea.
Reading while drunk is horrible.
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Why would I want to visit a library?
It would cost me over £2 to visit my nearest library using public transport. I have ordered an ebook reader which will enable me to buy a book for little more than the bus fares AND have the choice of thousands of free books AND there are no fines!
The days of the local libraries are, sadly, finished. The electronic revolution and the high cost of public transport have seen them off.
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A lot of old people use our library its a place not just to borrow books but to get out the house and meet other people lets leave the library free and cut middle class benefits they can afford to go without one less hoilday a year.
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There has already been a dumbing down with libraries. More to the point, move cafes & small supermarkets into libraries.
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Libraries today are places mainly where old people go in the Winter to keep warm and read the free daily News Papers.
So close and scrap ALL Libraries and sack the Staff, then reduce the Council Tax and raise Old Age Pensions, so that these same Old folks can afford to pay for their own News Papers and Central Heating at Home.
All written material should be transferred and made available on-line to read in the comfort of your Arm-Chair.
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I recall a certain Margaret Hilda Thatcher conjuring up similar statistics from her local authority cronies in the eighties; it lead to the closure of and restricted opening of remaining libraries. Perhaps local authorities should consider making online books available in addition to improved access points, rather than further stifling the literacy of our communities.
Another typical Tory 'stuff the ordinary person' soundbite.
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36. At 11:47am on 24 Aug 2010, Peter_Sym wrote:
Err.... I thought the £2000 a year in council tax thats forced out of me IS paying for this sort of thing! Funny how we're having 'unprecidented cuts in public spending' but no corresponding cuts in taxation.
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There is very good reason for you to be angry. That money your paying was already spent by labour and your paying of the credit they used. This gov must cut services because the money for those services was already spent by the last lot.
Many people were saying this but drowned out or ignored. Now those same people are paying off the debts they warned us all about along with us. We are all in the same boat
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The statistics on which all this gloom about the future of libraries is based seem to be the number of people visiting weekly. I'd count myself a regular user of our excellent local library - but since I can take up to 15 items out at once (I usually stop at 12!), I have no need to be back every week - especially as I can renew anything on-line.
Since so many posters, it seems, never visit libraries but still feel qualified to comment, perhaps it's not surprising that much of the comment on his board is uninformed about modern libraries, and negative!
I do agree, though, with those who say that ereaders will present a challenge to libraries; I use one myself (as well as paper books). But there are e-libraries developing in some areas, so there's no reason why traditional libraries shouldn't develop in this way too; if one physically visited a library to download limited-term loan books, there would be far less need for complex and unpopular DRM software on such books (as much of the DRM's task is to identify the individual, already doen if you've presented your library card). Best of both worlds!
This could also avoid the issue over outdated technical books, since the latest version could be consistently available electronically at low cost to the library.
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It is anything but nostalgic to point out that libraries are still heavily used. Whenever I go to a public library in London (once every 2/3 weeks) I see plenty of users there. Asking whether "enough" people use them is the wrong mentality. If the state should only fund things which are popular, why not cut funding for rare illnesses (which are "minority use" like libraries) and subsidise cheap beer instead? Funding libraries, like museums and the arts, says something about the things we value as a culture. If people don't take advantage of them, that's their choice, but this choice should be available to all who want to use them.
Maybe they can be partly funded by a tax on celebrity-themed TV shows, which clearly degrade the moral and intellectual fibre of the nation?
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To be honest if there is a book that I really want to read, I buy it from a charity shop. I can't remember the last time I went to the library, although my kids enjoy going there.
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Of course this is the thin end of the wedge.
They will be after all the museums, theatres and galleries next.
They seem to think the masses only need supermarkets, pubs and X-Factor.
Libraries offer many other services these days (e.g. free internet access, photocopying, DVD lending etc.). They are one of the very few community based facilities still remaining. If anything they should be expanded (e.g. longer opening hours) not killed off.
Another one for smug Nick, Vince and Charles to be proud of... Enjoy you hour of glory chaps its not going to last long.
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Do libraries have a future? Perhaps we should be as interested in whether librarians have a future??
I hope so.
At a time when most people's research skills are limited to typing random, and often badly spelled, keywords into Google, librarians are highly-qualified expert researchers who can help with everything from researching your Great Granny through to that all-important "Taxidermy for Beginners" publication for when Mr Tiddles shrugs off his mortal (and furry) coil.
As a student, one particular librarian was instrumental in helping me get through my degree, and when you lose that kind of selfless professionalism, it's gone for ever.
Sadly, we'll keep on "googling" and when they're gone, we'll wonder why we let them go. As Anita Brookner once said, "Problems of human behaviour still continue to baffle us, but at least in the Library we have them properly filed."
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Library's have had their day, there is not a single book that you can not get online, Audio books too libravox website has hundreds of thousands of audio books in mp3 format all the "classics" as they are now out of copyright and public domain. So it is simple enough to download a book at the click of a mouse to your mp3 player or mobile phone. As for research going to a library will only provide you with a very limited source of information, where as the internet is unlimited. I would challenge anyone to find a single topic that is not fully covered on wiki.
Most library's now are just glorified internet café's but without the hot drinks and pleasant atmosphere.
dedicated digital book readers will soon be outdated and outmoded as being to narrow and limited why have a digital book that will not play movies or show live tv from the internet, and have a computer to connect to the internet as well. nice gadget nice idea but it will be dead and gone in five years.
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Growing up my local library was one of my favourite places to go but that was before I got hooked on the internet.
Sadly I think small local community libraries will disappear and only large city/university ones will survive.
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The 2nd and 3rd posts are classic HYS
2. At 10:33am on 24 Aug 2010, David Horton wrote:
Not only that, but as an avid PDA reader, the day of the library is passing.
3. At 10:44am on 24 Aug 2010, Billy wrote:
For literature, the relative cost of books these days is so cheap people just buy them instead of borrowing - My wife took 8 books on our last holiday and left 6 of them behind!
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Unfortunately chaps,some people can't afford to buy books and toss them away, or read them via a PDA.
That's why libraries are a community resource, and should certainly have a future. I would certainly fight long and hard to protect mine.
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Antiquated and totally redundant. The money can be better spent on other things. Or better yet just not spent at all and hence not removed from my pay packet. That way I could afford a PDA and download all the books I want. Would do a few trees a real favour too.
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33. At 11:44am on 24 Aug 2010, David Horton wrote: "14. At 11:12am on 24 Aug 2010, None Of The Above wrote: 2. At 10:33am on 24 Aug 2010, David Horton wrote: "if you want it, you pay for it" Most people don't want the war in Afghanistan. Think on" "There are essential services and there are luxuries"
I've never heard war desrcibed as an essential service before, but it certainly has a nice ring to it.
"Meaningless comparison and if you don't understand what I meant, I'll explain"
I knew exactly what you meant. But if you'd considered that possibility, you wouldn't have had the chance to be condescending. I can see the bind you were in.
"I am not anti-book. I have a couple of thousand myself, scattered over my house"
Maybe you should open your house as a library.
"When faced with the stark choice of closing down wards or closing one of the thousands of libraries, I cannot think that even you, a librarian, would support the closure of a hospital ward"
As an ex-librarian, I wouldn't support the closure of a ward over the closure of a library. I would support the closure of a war, though.
13. At 11:11am on 24 Aug 2010, phish99 wrote: "As a university librarian, I despair at the attacks on the public service, and school libraries. Many of you have no idea of the impact this has on our users in academic libraries! They don't know how a library works or what a librarian does, and what training they go through to get that professional role. They don't understand how to search, access and use information and research effectively or ethically, they have no clue about licensing or copyright, some can't even grasp the concept of borrowing something and returning it by a given date"
If I wasn't sure it would fall foul of the moderators, I'd suggest a response to this along the lines of "Construct a sentence using the words 'elitist', 'ivory', 'tower', 'spoilt' and 'brat'.
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Just like post offices, isn't it? If they're not making the money or being used then you can't justify keeping them going. If you want them you have to use them. Free internet access seems like one kind of thing that they can offer to bring folks in
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The problem with many libraries is that they hold old out of date books. You can’t blame them as it costs money to replace with newer stock.
The service does need to change: forget all this ‘be quiet’ stuff and make libraries with coffee shops and entertainment centres with live acts.
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unfortunately many council have tended to USE libraries as a place to transfer members of the LEA teaching profession that have suffer from stress. that in turn lead to all sots of NON library activities be carried out with the library .The budget of which came out of the Library Budget and not the LEA budget.. The consequent? High wage bill less books .
In Wales under some EU grant funding Computers and free internet was available ..BUT likes of Conwy council, then rented or Least out those computers to a further education college to run their own IT courses.
That in turn not only deprives the public of library space ,but also the access to the computers provided for the public to use, by the EU !
All the above as lead to the declined usage by the public , the lack of money for books and the chronic over staffings ..
Yes Library most return to being libraries and must be independent of local councils
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I think that in towns and cities where there is a university (or more often two) there is not much need for a civic library, except in the case of fiction provision but were these not available then I could see a rise in the second-hand book shop (no bad thing). Sadly, in my experience, often those with the lowest incomes are those less likely to spend on reading and perhaps some form of voucher could be provided instead of cash (which may go on other items) to provide books for children (as opossed to additional Child Support), OAPs and those on low incomes.
Obvioulsy for those towns that do not have a university then perhaps the local college or even community school.
I have often thought it might be an idea to co-locate all recreational and educational civic resources in a central arts centre but I think that the cost would be prohibitive (unless we stop invading other countries of course!)
:)
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Although I'm not sure we can afford libraries if people are not using them, I do worry about the use of the internet that some people on HYS are advocating. Much of what is on the internet is either:
1 - Wrong due to people passing on their own ignorance.
2 - Deliberately mendacious because people have an axe to grind and want to lie or distort information to suit their own agenda.
3 - Politically motivated by people from either the extreme left or far right.
4 - Gossip or speculation passed on as fact.
5 - Crazy conspiracy theories etc.
The worst of it is, that it is far too easy to find more than one source of information that verifies the same errors.
Books (and broadsheet newspapers), whilst not perfect are far more reliable!
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13. At 11:11am on 24 Aug 2010, phish99 wrote:
...As a university librarian, I despair at the attacks on the public service, and school libraries. Many of you have no idea of the impact this has on our users in academic libraries! They don't know how a library works or what a librarian does, and what training they go through to get that professional role. They don't understand how to search, access and use information and research effectively or ethically, they have no clue about licensing or copyright, some can't even grasp the concept of borrowing something and returning it by a given date. If they regularly used a library from a young age, they would be better prepared in their future jobs and academic careers, in so many ways. Some of our users seem to think we are a glorified free bookshop, with a copy of the core text for every student who demands it, and they can return them whenever they feel like it. Fines? Why would we dare to do that? They are paying customers of HE after all"
My first reaction to this was, don't they learn all this at school, don't they have school libraries any more?
Then, on reflection it occured to me that no, they don't learn this at school because so much is done by way of the Internet, even at Junior school I think?
Do they even have school libraries now? I don't know
In those dreadful 'old days', before computers came on the scene, every secondary school, be it Sec Mod or Grammar, had a well-stocked library which we were encouraged to use, for quiet study or 'reading beyond the text-book' etc
Because we used the school library, we automatically learned what a library was, how it worked, how the Dewey system works etc
Any plagiarism was usually detected by teachers and 're-write in own your words!' would appear on homework and so the idea of Copyright was understood with encouragement to always cite a reference if 'copying'
If all this 'general knowledge' about libraries is longer absorbed at school then I suppose it's not surprising if students arrive at University not knowing what the library is for, how it works nor how to search, access and use information
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Unfortunately I think libraries need to diversify in order to remain active. They need halls and rooms for talks and presentations, IT suites for internet. Give them cafes to draw people in. But that wont happen because there is no money.
A library isn't just for loaning novels, they are a source of information. There is an argument for online research but what about the reference material?
Not everything is on the internet, regardless of what you may think, especially if you're looking for local knowlege. And unless you know where to look it can be harder finding an accurate website than finding the right book.
And I certainly would want to go to a pub or supermarket! The thought makes me shudder!
But then I love books.
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My local pub is already full of over opinionated inebriates...imagine giving that kind of bore a reference section!!!
Mercy!
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Libraries have a value for sure but this value must be paid by the users only not everyone else.
Where a library is well used then it can remain - use it or lose it. Besides this all libraries need to look to new sources of income such as;
+ mini business hubs,
+ secure drop spots for groceries/online goods
+ galleries,
+ cafes.
A change from free at point of use to a self funding model is a desperate need. If that means libraries closing so be it.
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"You can download a book to an iPad, but can you chat to someone whilst you do it and learn something from them? No."
Well on the ipad, you can chat to anyone you know via instant messaging or anyone in the world via chat rooms. So yes, I think you can talk to someone (anyone) whilst reading a book on an ipad and learn something new from them.
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Libraries in pubs, ahem!!! So,........ pubs can save a fortune in beer mats. A graet way to introduce school children to alcohol.
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It is unfortunate that large organisations tend to forget that not everyone has a computer or knows how to surf the net.
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I am an avid reader but also I work full-time. My local library opening times are monday to friday from 9 till 5:30pm while I am at work. When I am supposed to attend the library?
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It all depends how the library is organised:
In Newcastle the main library has been rebuilt. It has, in addition to books: a cafe, computers to access the Internet, a private training organisation, audiobooks, music CDs, DVDs, etc. On display, it has books that are over 100 years old, comic books from the 50s, etc. People can renew their books from home. It has book clubs.
I saw a member of staff help someone choose books based only on a description of what sort of books they liked in the past.
For more information see:
http://www.newcastle.gov.uk/libraries
I think it stands a good chance of surviving.
Libraries do have a future if the local authority is willing to invest. Whilst it adds to the Council Tax in the short-term, library users re-coup that investment when they have access to material they would have to pay a lot more for if they wanted to buy it.
Yes, I do believe that libraries have a future.
Should that investment be made at this point in time, I don't know as I can see both sides of the argument.
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2. At 10:33am on 24 Aug 2010, David Horton wrote:
Not only that, but as an avid PDA reader, the day of the library is passing.
This myth that it is still the vibrant hub of the community needs to be stilled.
We are facing an era of unprecedented cust in Public Spending. The axe should fall squarely on the library and all other minority use establishments. If you want it, you pay for it.
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Totally agree with you. Somebody should enlighten Torbay Council who are building a new library in Paignton.
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The best suggestion I've seen so far is to have a coffee shop attached to the library. If a profit sharing deal is worked out with a commercial chain (free floor space for a cut of the take) then maybe libraries will start attracting people back in. Come in for a coffee, stay for a book. And maybe a bit more money available for library services and stocks. It works great for commercial bookstores, so why not libraries.
Of course, some bean-counter will probably just reduce library funding my the amount the coffee shop generates...
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David Horton wrote: Not only that, but as an avid PDA reader, the day of the library is passing. This myth that it is still the vibrant hub of the community needs to be stilled.
We are facing an era of unprecedented cust in Public Spending. The axe should fall squarely on the library and all other minority use establishments. If you want it, you pay for it.
People like you probably believe books should be burnt as well, to keep all that dangerous knowledge secret.
As to your earlier point about libraries vs hospitals - interesting choice. Why not libraries vs excess staff, or excess expenses?
Hospitals are important of course, but so is knowledge and culture and entertainment. We seem to be obsessed with the quantity of our race, whilst forgetting the quality. Do yourself a favour - switch your little gadget off and try thinking about the bigger picture.
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I've had no use for my local libraries (two or three) for many years now. Any fiction I care to read can be bought fairly cheaply from tesco/sainsburys (and I don't have to worry about it getting a bit battered), or downloaded from the internet to read on my laptop.
More to the point, as a university student, I need somewhat specialized texts, and no local library has a single one. No surprise, as Geology isn't a massively popular subject... As such the only library I use is the one on my uni campus. It holds no fiction whatsoever, and I've never seen it empty in two years!
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I hope they have a future - I'm off to mine this afternoon. It's the town’s main library, but it’s invariably packed with students studying and the IT suite is always busy. It’s one of the newer libraries around, so has got great facilities. It’s got a list of local activities, clubs and courses in the entrance.
As to the question: Would you be more likely to visit your library if it was in a pub or supermarket? – is that a joke? Libraries are usually in the town centres. How much research/quiet work can you do in a pub? If you’re already inclined to hire books, I’d imagine you’d make that trip to the library.
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"Do libraries have a future?"
Not while footballers, models and other thick celebrities 'write' 'books' which are sold like washing powder in supermarkets. The publishers, mostly foreign-owned conglomerates anyway, are also to blame. That Dan Brown writes some of the worst books ever published, yet sells more than almost anyone, speaks volumes. Most UK 'news'-paper buyers 'read' rags like the Sun, Express and Star, and these papers do NOT want us reading proper books (because if we did, we might learn enough not to buy the wretched gutter press). That must have an enormous influence. See how they promote models' memoirs whilst pretending they don't know that the 'author' has never read, let alone written, a book. So these are the books people want, and libraries become irrelevant.
But hey, that's the dumb UK. In some other European countries people have more taste, and there are more libraries.
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yes we need to keep libraries - let me set a scene (its possiable but not likely) one of the rogue states gets a nuclear device and attacks the USA or Russia or N Korea, they lob the nukes back and soon the world is plunged in to WW3, now after the lobbing of ICBMs all the computers you love and know so well are destroyed - ok buildings will be to but if 1 library is kept then the knowledge is kept.
ok the above is a bit far fetched, however there is a vaild point all the techhy in the world can not ever repleace paper and the written word,
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No everyone has internet access. They could virtualise the library and place it online.
But where would those without internet access go to, to be able to freely access this online equivalent? The Library? Hah.
Btw. Libraries in Pubs is oxymoronic (except for books on cocktail mixing). Pubs are largely seen as anti-intellectual establishments.
Maybe nerds in school should have their chess club behind the bike sheds, so that all the smoking bullies can partake in a game in between puffs. Hmmmm....
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For those who want their children to grow up reading and enjoying books, but who lack the income to buy them, the library is a great alternative. They are usually also a place to go and use a computer for those who can't afford one at home. As such, cutting back on libraries is likely to disproportionately affect those one lower incomes and should not happen.
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I have another thought (I know, it's rare).
If a child is asked to complete their homework by doing research. If they don't have books/internet at home, the can visit the library.
If libraries are closed, they can visit the pub.... Ideal Educational Environemnt. Hmmm....
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Worcester Library is open until 8pm mon-wed, but closes at 5:30pm thurs-sat and is closed all day sunday. The Cafe closes at 4:30.
Parking in that area of the city centre is poor and bus-services too few and far-between after 5:30pm. Park & Ride closes at 7pm
The monthlay readers' group starts at 5:30 (so rules out most people)
So getting there is difficult if you are not within walking distance and their opening hours are not conducive to attracting people who work for a living.
Sunday opening, late night all week, better parking/busses, and a cafe that opens in the evening would be a start. A program of the right events that are marketed on their web-site would go a long way too.
But for now, it is an expensive service only suited to the retired, the unemployed and home-makers.
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Lots of comments but no one seems to want to point out the elephant in the room.
Libraries are in decline because the vast majority of people no longer read for pleasure. I read somewhere that the average person in the UK now reads fewer English language books than the average person in Iceland - now I know there is not a lot to do in Iceland in the winter with 24 hour nights, but they are reading the books in English not Icelandic which is impressive (or maybe typically of Scandinavians, one of the best science fiction and fantasy book shops I have ever been in was in Stockholm).
As for moving the library - my nearest library is on my walk to Sainsburys so very convenient.
As for ebooks - I love the feel of paper. I have tried ebooks and they are not a mature technology yet and utterly unsuited to quick readers. Maybe in next 5 years this will change.
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I don't happen to like our local authorities, but they have provided a splendid library where there are reading and learning opportunities for children, plenty of books for people of all ages, appreciated by the elderly, there are videos and DVDs to hire, opportunities to learn languages, and an excellent reading area which many students in the community make use of. Quite honestly, it is not a large building but it is light, well decorated, with friendly staff. As a toddler my son became a member, hired books and videos and learned something about social responsibility by returning the material on time.
So let us hear it. The stupid Labour government spent all the money propping up banks and maintaining the idle workshy in luxury. So now Sir Galahad of the coalition realises that libraries might be used by the lower orders and money can be saved by closing them. So the BBC is instructed to put it on HYS where Con Dems can tell everyone that in this day of the interenet we no longer need libraries. So all the more for the rich. This, my friends, is another stage of the class war. And just think, a few years ago I thought that class antagonism was over.
Just a final thought. When the Big Society starts we probably won't need libraries as barefoot unemployed teachers can visit working class ghettoes where they will tell stories to the inmates.
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While I'm still an avid fan of the hard copy I must admit how long will it be before you take a walk into the Smithsonian and see a mock-up or replica of what libraries used to look like.
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It doesn't matter how cheaply you can buy books from Amazon, etc. Libraries provide free books for everyone. They also provide free access to the internet - not everyone can afford the internet at home. Libraries also provide users with free access to online resources such as Which?, Oxford Reference Online and educational/business related resources.
310,776,757 items were borrowed from libraries nationally in 2008/2009. That doesn't look like minority use to me.
This figure of course doesn't indicate that many other library users walk through the door to (1) use library resources in the library, without actually borrowing the items (2) use the free PCs (3) attend training courses or events in the library. It also doesn't indicate that many other users access library websites to reserve items, renew their books and access the free online resources mentioned above as well.
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Public Libraries were established in the mid-19th century so that the poor had access to knowledge. They empowered the masses, and were a huge benefit to society. There's little doubt that the country we live in today would be much less equal without them.
But now we have the internet, TV and radio, and books are (usually) cheap. Access to knowldge and information is easy for anyone.
I would keep public libraries as free internet access points for people unable to own their own machine, but otherwise, they can go.
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64. At 12:20pm on 24 Aug 2010, Grrr BBC Grrr wrote:
Surely it's only benefit scroungers and single mothers scrounging benefits who use libraries anyway? And their children don't need education, or free internet access.
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Are you joking or serious?
If you are serious:
I know someone who's blind and works. Given the cost of audiobooks, a library is a llfe-line.
Ps.
I take it you wouldn't ever claim benefits if you ever lost your job?
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Just a thought - I assume if Libraries are now redundant as claimed, that the House of Commons wouldn't be needing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Commons_Library would they? Surely not one rule for 'us', and quite another for 'them'?
Free access to information is one of the cornerstones of of a healthy democracy, and I sincerely believe that being able to access the *right* bit of information at the right time can be a life changing experience.
Libraries, even more so in this age of digital information, are absolutely key to both of those concepts. Think properly on the wonderful value of what we have before consigning it undeservedly to the dustbin
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@David Horton: The 74.9% stat is on the original story. Try reading it. The evidence to back it up is available if you bother to find out. And yes, frequently we are told 'there is no money' and 'it's all the last Government's fault' etc etc. What I am saying is: it is unfair to compare the two services. Of course you don't want to close a hospital ward, but saying 'therefore every library in the land must close' surely isn't the answer?
By the way: you can only donate books to school libraries if there is a school library to receive them in the first place. Don't you think those are being slashed too? And once the books arrive, do they magic themselves on to a library management system and the catalogue? Do they fly off the shelves into the eager hands of children? How are children expected to find the books, learn how to use all the resources the school library has to offer? Osmosis if the teachers don't have time and the librarians have been sacked.
Tell you what though, you have made me chuckle. I'm not an academic, though I'd take the pay and perks! I'm a librarian, with an MSc in Information and Library Management, currently undertaking a PG Cert in Learning and Teaching in Higher Education so I can have the piece of paper to make sure everyone realises that I do a lot of teaching on a day to day basis, on various courses at different levels. What do I teach? Everything from how to use the library through to advanced research and information literacy skills. But thanks, I loved your comment!
As an aside: The comments about infection and hygiene. Do you wear gloves when you pay with cash? Do you think books on the shelf in bookshops have never been thumbed? Don't be daft.
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