How should anti-social behaviour be policed?
Police are failing to record and tackle anti-social behaviour, according to a review. How can they improve?
The review by HM Inspectorate of Constabulary criticised forces in England and Wales for failing to adequately log reports of harassment, vandalism and verbal abuse.
Many police computer systems were unable to spot victims who suffered repeated abuse. In 23% of incidents of anti-social behaviour, officers did not even turn up.
The report comes as the Independent Police Complaints Commission investigates the case of Fiona Pilkington, who killed herself and her severely disabled daughter after suffering sustained anti-social behaviour. Police were called 33 times in seven years to reports of abuse, vandalism and violence by local youths.
How should police tackle anti-social behaviour? Are you satisfied with the performance of your local police force? Have you been a victim of anti-social behaviour? Did the police handle your complaint properly?
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A visible presence on the street would help. Not the community officers who are not taken seriously. But full police officers walking the streets. There is no lawful presence in our communities as they are in cars or behind desks. We don't know their names, the community doesn't know them. They are invisible or a call centre.
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With actual police on the street?
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They don't deal with antisocial behaviour because they're not there to see it. My wife and I went to Scarborough a few days ago. The town was very busy, not least with groups of youths who evidently had nothing to do and were wandering round in packs making their presence felt: one lot were screaming obscenities and threats across the street at a lone youngster, heedless of pensioners and mothers with young children. One thing we didn't see, in all the time we were walking round, was one solitary police officer or even a CSO. It's hardly surprising that the yobs feel they rule the streets.
When we lived in Peterborough, I used to attend meetings of the local residents' association. Complaints of police apathy in the face of antisocial behaviour were common. I remember one woman being told that she should take the matter up at a scheduled surgery the police held in the area, to which she retorted that she had indeed gone to it - but the police had failed to turn up (as indeed they repeatedly failed to turn up at residents' association meetings). On the other hand, when I politely requested information about a mass brawl that had occurred in the street outside my house, resulting in my having to call 999, we were favoured with a visit from TWO officers, one of whom declined to sit down but stood glowering down at us while his colleague basically denied knowing anything about the incident - despite the fact that it had resulted in a quarter of all arrests made on that beat over a three month period. The message was pretty clear: we're not accountable to you, sunshine. I had in fact written to our local councillor several weeks previously, warning that tensions were rising in the area, but had received no reply. I wrote again, pointing out that it had gone the way I'd predicted, and was told that the first letter "must have been lost in the post"......
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the police should take lodged complains seriously. most are being told but they just despise them off not knowing what impact they create to a person who has been intimidated. special police unit serviced with well trained officers to deal with this issue will be more helpful. most victims resort to self denial upon finding no justice from both ends.
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Zero tolerance, 24 hour magistrate’s courts, and very harsh sentences for all anti social behaviour. IE commit anti social behaviour, get arrested at once and taken straight to the police station from there they appear before a magistrate within 2 hours and are sentenced with the punishment being imposed at once, the first thing the parents would know is when they were informed that little Johnny was caught throwing stones through windows’ and they can pick him up in 4 weeks time from the youth correction camp.
Little Johnny then appears back in front of the magistrate before being released to be told that next time he appears before them the sentence will be 6 months, the rest of his moronic mates in his little gang will not be so keen to do it either when they see what’s happened to their hero.
Very harsh? Yes but we in this country are sick to death of these little morons ruining everyone else’s life, just follow the above rules and watch the problem disappear.
The Victorians had it right, Children should be seen and not heard and don’t spare the rod, we have tried that it does not work.
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Community Officers with more teeth would be part of the answer. They need greater powers of arrest for a start. Another element has to be the number of police actually on the beat with a good combination of car and foot patrols. Most importantly, the parents of youths and children acting anti-socially should be held responsible. There should be some sort of order forcing parents to be aware of where their offspring are and to ground them as necessary. Penalties for lack of control should ensue, with compulsory parenting courses being part of the consequence and the solution.
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I fear it is far too late for the police to tackle anti-social behaviour.
Years of under-reporting crimes and non-attendance has led to an attitude where people no longer involve the police in the loop and hide behind their curtains hoping it is not them who gets picked on that evening. Vehicle damage is an accepted fact of owning a car in an urban area.
If the police wanted to do something they could ensure that they rapidly attend at least a few reports of anti-social behavior per evening. At least that way those responsible wouldn't be able to ruin other peoples lives safe in the knowledge that the police will never turn up.
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Police are more interested in issuing speeding fines to motorists than catching real criminals. Kids don't respect police like older generations did. Our society has changed for the worst.....
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The common view is that all police do now is drive about hassling motorists, the sad fact is that this is backed up by experience. the only time I see police is in a car, have you spotted one on the street at all lately ?
My streets are just littered with unruly kids going wild.
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The Inspectorate of Constabulary says the police RISK losing confidence, well they HAVE lost the confidence of me. Where as before if i saw something i'd report now i just look the other way and if asked anything say sorry didn't see a thing
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Stocks and flogging for offenders. The flogging to be carried out by the victims of their anti social behavior.
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It starts in UK schools who are penalised, by OFSTED, for reporting anti social incidents. This already sets a trend. Restore schools' authority and remove outside controls- inspectors in other countries just inspect- not the huge control apparat they are here. Focus on creative education, it reduces crime in the first place.
Another tip from the continent; parents must have child insurance, to cover damage they may do, premiums are low but it helps instil a responsible attitude.
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Antisocial behaviour should be policed as it was years ago, as crime, not like today's way of treating it as a 'bit of naughtiness'.
Crime is crime, and crime must have consequences for the criminal.
A return to real discipline in schools and bringing back Borstal would be a good start.
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There seems to be so many reports of cases on the news involving the failure of the Police, social services etc ...
The police seems to spend so much time on catching speeding motorists rather than dealing with the real law and order issues of anti-social behaviour that involves interacting with the public.
PS - I seem to see more motorists on their mobile phones, than speeding, so maybe the Police need to look at what they are doing ...... or not...
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Anti-social behaviour means action against ones own community. This is also a failure by the community. To prevent a repeat on release the local community should be able to persuade him/her to re-enter a community that shows that it cares.
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The problem of anti-social behaviour is symptomatic of the problems in society generally. The country is rudderless, fractured, ill at ease and run by a politburo that has deliberately engineered the disasters that are overwhelming society.
In the past unpopular governments were dismissed and replaced by a more competent alternative but today we are in such a sorry state that the alternative is just as clueless.
As for the police they, like the BBC, have allowed themselves to become politicised and are now the civilian arm of a creeping oppression that is slowly becoming the enemy within.
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Back to basics - More police officers on the beat actually doing police work rather than pushing memos around, filling in pieces of paper and pursuing motorists for doing 36mph in 30 zone.
Maybe a more integrated neighbourhood watch scheme, where residents can quickly contact a beat officer to get them straight to the scene.
Once caught, a zero tolerance approach from the courts. Harsh and enforced fines and community sentences, maybe picking litter, painting fences and digging gardens in the areas where they offend wearing bright orange jackets with the words "I am serving a community sentence". Prison for repeat offenders at their third offence, no questions or exceptions.
It will not happen though, as we are more interested in offenders human rights.
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In the majority of cases it is not the police who fail to record the anti social behaviour it is the people making the complaint who,for one reason or another are too afraid to give their names and addresses for fear of reprisal,knowing that those guilty of anti social behaviour will only get a slapped wrist,is it worth all the aggro reporting it?
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Firstly
The PCSO has been the biggest failure of Policing Policy for quite sometime. Even I, see the PCSO as a plastic Policeman with no powers at all. Get rid of them all and replace with Police Officers. Even if you can only stretch it to 50% Police Officer to 100% PCSO it would make the difference.
Once we have the Police Officers, then you get them on the streets, where the problems are. The Police know who these mugs are, get them to sort it.
Secondly
The public need to realise that most of the problems are being caused by Children, who are willing to take on an adult whilst they are in numbers; one to one you will see very little come back from the child. If these Children think they are big enough to take on an adult then they are big enough to use force against. I recently had to eject a group out of my shopping centre and some of them (not all) had to be ejected by force. Now that is not what we want to do, but when we do, we get complaints from the public that we are bullying these sweat children.
I have spent 24 years in the armed forces, and I have trained my team to the highest of standards and force is always used as a last resort, so when you see, my team ejecting someone by force, it means all reasonable ways have been exhausted.
The Trouble is they think they can speak to us like they speak with their Parents or even Teachers and they are so convinced that by law we are not allowed to touch them. Their Parents are not allowed, The Teachers are not allowed and I truly believe the police don’t want to either.
We have created a group of untouchables!!!! And they know it!!
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With unemployed drug addict neighbours partying into the small hours every night,and who had issued death threats to me when I asked them to quieten down so I could get some sleep before work,you might have expected the local police to take some action. But no,they came round and told me that it would be like stirring up a hornets nest if they intervened and the neighbours would just make my life hell,which of course,they were already doing. Seems to me there is a failure to properly deal with anti-social behavior by the police as it is too much like hard work.
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Here in a quiet semi rural area near Southampton many residents endured threats of violence, harassment and abuse by one anti social individual for months. Whenever the police were called they took hours or days to respond, or did not respond at all. The police were totally ineffectual and now I would be reluctant to report any incident because it would just be a waste of time. So much for tough on crime, and tough on the causes of crime.
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I often wonder whether or not it's worthwhile repeating comments as the politicians and top police officers are always 'cockin' a deaf 'un'! Here goes again ...
As police now routinely go around in twos (what are THEY afraid of?) the police force has been HALVED.
Real INTELLIGENCE is to be found locally and from local people. You can't get that intelligence from inside cars or offices. You can't fight all crime through cameras and other hi-tech devices.
It's no accident that crime decreases where Zero Tolerance policies are in place. Police ignore so-called anti-social behaviour when in fact it's CRIME they ignore. I was a youngster once and I needed restraint from mischief-making.
The police are no longer seen as 'friends' of the law-abiding public. They are increasingly seen as mere arms of the state and, given time, will resemble the East German STASI ... they and the government having more and more intrusive powers.
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At 06:46am on 11 Mar 2010, Mustafa Beer wrote:
Police are more interested in issuing speeding fines to motorists than catching real criminals. Kids don't respect police like older generations did. Our society has changed for the worst.....
Mustafa Beer I think
Speeding Motorist are proper criminals, we cannot pick and choose the laws we wish to follow and discard the ones we don't. Perhaps if speeding motorist stopped speeding then the police can put the resources back on the streets?
Is it not interesting as we as a society see car crime as somehow not real?
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Anti social behaviour can make victims lives a living hell, it is unnacceptable.
Punishment should be boot camps, community service, short spells in prison and termiante any benefits. If the offender is under 18 then punish their parents/guardians as well. If the offender has money fine them as well.
If an ofender has comiitted other crimes in the past then double the punishment.
Always insist on an apology to their victims. If they refuse, double the sentence.
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Have more police on the streets, walking, and let’s focus on anti social and violence, too much effort goes on petty crime, possession of drugs or harassing demonstrators here. Start at source by giving teachers more powers to deal with thugs- eg. the power to expel- that’s how some other countries, and UK independents curb anti social behavior without a suppressive atmosphere.
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It's not often that I concur with David Cameron, but when he says that we treat adults like children and children like adults, I'm in complete agreement. Giving young people responsibility for their own actions, when there are no consequences (and it starts in the home and at school where they know they'll get what they want if the just dig their heels in long enough)needs changing. Young people respond to boundaries and these boundaries used to be set by a social understanding. That social understanding is now gone and we need to replace it with a group of people saying what they are going to do and then doing it. No more 43rd last warnings for "minor offences". It has to start with authority figures like teachers and the police. And if they break their part of the bargain by creating anti social behaviour, they should be made to do community work in their own time and their parents should be made to acknowledge the fact they crossed the line of acceptable behaviour, not hide behind the "not my wee Johnny" syndrome which has been prevalent for so long.
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Thanks to the do gooder liberals we cannot control our children any more.They have stopped anyone disciplining children/youths ..... now we are paying for this liberalism.
We need police on the streets walking the beat, the ability to hand out meaningful punishment ... not " oh dont do it again johhny"
Boot camps for repeat offenders and removal from the streets until as such time as they can behave.Unfortunately you reap what you sow and look what we are reaping now ...... thanks labour.
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I know a few policemen & women, and their biggest grip is the fact that as soon as they catch these criminals, they are released, and back out on the streets committing more crime. How daft is that? Then of cause we have the mad Labour imposed “Targets” which have to be met, the needless bureaucracy, barking mad judicial system and political correctness which stops the Police from doing their job.
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I have been the victim of anti social disorder, witnessed anti social behaviour and reported it, only to give up due to inaction by the police. I've witnessed violence, vandalism, etc. and no longer report it to the police as I know from experience that I'm wasting my time.
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Police/Community Officers should issued with cattle prods, and when they caught the "little loves", quick jab from the prod.
Seriously, anti social behaviour is a nuisance to all. The resolution is quite easy. Tackle it at the source. When I was young we had a local copper, who lived in the same street as me. Everyone knew and respected him. If he caught you you got a clip round the ear, and then dragged you, in front of your mates to your parents, who then gave you other clip round the ear. And you now what? it didn't do us kids any harm, it taught us respect. He also knew who the culprits were likely to be. Not only that any adult was referred to as "Mr" and "Mrs". As kids we were taught at home and at school to respect our elders, irrespective of whether we liked them or not.
Over the years, children have been given more rights then the parents. You can't give a kid a clip round the ear anymore, without the propect of being sued. You can't shout at them for fear of being abused back or targeted at a later time/date.
How should we tackle anti social behaviour? You can't as those causing ASB have more rights than you and will simply walk free for any charges, and thus target you for dropping them in it in the first place.
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I like Einstein’s observation, ‘You won’t solve the problem with the same kind of thinking that created it’.
Removing the national curriculum as the government intends should help.
Inflexible education often produces a society that doesn’t deal with aggressive or violent behaviour, there are several obvious examples. It might help British people to value education and see how far reaching are its results on society.
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I think a lot of people are in denial about the causes of anti social behaviour. Society itself. It is not just children commiting these offences but adults as well. There is no respect in this country any more for anybody let alone the police. This is not a new problem, it has been occuring since the eighties. Children have not been brought up to respect their own parents let alone the police and those in authority.
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Drop semantic weasel words like 'anti-social behaviour' : an act is either a criminal offence or it is not.
Like many others here, I feel a return to local beat bobbies who know everyone in their area would be beneficial. People driving past in cars cannot hope to get to know the people they serve - neither the law-abiding whom they should be protecting nor the rapscallions with whom they ought to be having a few words.
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How can you have any confidence in a police force that refuses to take on travellers who have nicked someones van "because it's too dangerous" - I have some news for you PC Plod, that's what we pay you for, that's what you signed up for.
They are, on the other hand, very quick to arrest old ladies for the heinous crime of reading names at the cenetaph and old men who have the sheer audacity to heckle the front bench in what we imagined was a democracy. Quite how these things happened under anti-terrorism laws is a mystery but they managed it. This sort of thing, by the way Plod, is NOT what we pay you for and is certainly not (I hope) what you signed up for.
Start policing the way the vast majority of people want you to instead of pandering to unelected twits in cabinet positions (another mystery) and you might find yourselves regaining some of the respect you complain you are losing.
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How many people complaining about thr police have/or would answer 'Yes' to this question.
'Are you willing to attend court and give evidence?'
Unless you want to pay the increased taxes that would put police on every street corner it has to be a partnership in which the public play their full part.
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I was in in Belarus a few years back and the evening I arrived there were approx 150 teens congregated around a big pond in the city centre. They were all drinking alcohol and playing guitars and messing aorund etc. I thought this will be interesting at 11pm tonight. I sat on my apartment balcony and then slept after watching them for some time. The next morning when i went for a walk around this pond all the cans/bottles were put under the seats or around them and a bin van came around and collected them. I was speaking to a local a few days later and said if this was the UK the bottles would be smashed and the pond full of cans, not to mention the hell that would break loose at 11pm with teens full of drink. I was told if they misbehave the Police will come around and they will get locked up for a week, no if, no buts. The parents will be fined. Worked just fine as i seen it.
WE ARE FAR TOO SOFT ON CRIME...HARD SENTENCES WILL MEAN LESS CRIME! ITS COMMON SENSE.
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Its odd that people buy into being told that you need to see the police on foot. Its all well and good until a quick response is needed and the nearest officer on foot is half a mile away.....on foot. Or a PCSO attends...on foot...and then calls for a warranted officer...on foot.
I work within a force that is ASB pro-active, but when on ASB patrol I will be bounced all over the place to respond to incidents...in a vehicle. However, upon arrival we will leave the vehicle to deal with whatever is in front of me, as are my colleagues. That is the reality of it.
I conduct foot patrol on my neighbourhood area, yet the comments of 'I never see an officer' never end. Why? Simply because as I walk past, if people dont see me then I must never have been there. Very demoralising.
On the other end of the matter I have attended countless public meetings and been berrated for lack of police response to ongoing ASB, which will catch me by suprise as I had no knowledge. I return to the station, check the systems and find that the person complaining about the ongoing issue has not reported it. Unfortunately this is far from uncommon.
How to deal with ASB?
Simple.
Each offender must be held fully accountable within the judicial system so that being an offender is seen to be something to fear.
Parents should not see their children as innocent bystanders, whilst blaming that childs friends (another common feature).
ABSOs/ASBIs/Section 30 dispersal areas should be easier to obtain, not harder.
There should be no need to grant an Alcohol Restricted Zone as it should be in all public places, unless and exemption is applied for. Why do people need to meet up and get drunk in the streets/parks?
More police, more vehicles/bikes for responding.
Just a thought.
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The locals trouble makers just laugh when anyone threatens them with calling the police, recently they shouted back at an OAP you'll be better calling the fire brigade the ******* police won't do nuffing..
Do you know what they're right, i've discovered if you threaten to take the law into your own hands there's a higher chance they will attend, more than likely to arrest you to be honest.
I have NO faith whatsoever in my local police force NONE at all in fact i find them contemptable.
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I had my car vandalised several times, which I reported to the police. Each time they wrote back to me reporting that it was "criminal damage to property worth less than £5000" - the fact that the cost of the damage was immaterial to me, that my car was not drivable, was not something they were interested in : they were able to classify the crime and tick all their little boxes. They never linked any of them and they never even came round to look at it, even when I told them I had the rock that had been smashed into the windscreen.
They seemed more concerned about if I was white and British, than the actual damage itself. The last act of vandalism basically wrote the vehicle off and they said they would come round, but never did, so I complained and they turned up several days later, by which time any evidence at the scene had been washed away in the rain.
Eventually I got a letter saying that they'd investigated the crime but had not been able to charge anyone. They increased patrols of community officer during the day (all the acts of vandalism has occurred at night) for a few days and then it went back down to the usual total lack of police presence.
The whole experience has left me with no confidence in my local police force who seem to be unwilling to get out of their police stations and away from their paperwork and actually do the jobs they're paid to do.
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It is obvious from the many comments on this site that there is a huge problem with anti social behaviour. It is truly heart rending when the Police are well paid to deal with the problems, and so are Council workers. In USA they would have robustly sorted out the problems on the street.
A good example is Woodhall, in Welwyn Garden City, Hertfordshire, where the youths who regularly commit arson are treated to Halloween trips, just so residents can enjoy a Halloween night without fear of being egged or fireworks posted through their letter box or their car torched. Bad behaviour is rewarded and the good kids get nothing for being obedient.
What sort of example does this set ?
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1. Take away the ridiculous targets imposed on the police, and let them do what they're supposed to do.
2. Remove the stupid restrictions on parents and teachers about disciplining children: by preventing schools and parents from punishing children, we've created a generation that has no fear of any consequences of their actions.
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There is no risk of losing the public's confidence; the police lost the confidence of the public long ago. The government is responsible for the police becoming, themselves, a bunch of out-of-control thugs. That same government is obsessed with speed limits, and the police have taken their cue, preferring the easy option of hounding motorists rather than doing anything remotely difficult like policing the streets. Again under this government it has become too contentious to do anything where ethnic monorities are involved, so there are dual standards of policing. As for dealing with anti-social behaviour,if the police are needed, it is too late. This has to be tackled in schools, teaching proper standards, a problem for which, yet again, this government is responsible, and manifestly incapable of doing anything about. The answer to your question is " a change of government", fast.
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There has been a pste of incidents reported in the media in recent years where police have ignored various calls for help, particularly from vulnerable members of society.
Whenever i hear one of these cases i wonder how calls police must ignore on a daily basis for every one that becomes public.
It suggests to me that there is a culture within the police of ignoring minor crimes. I don't know whether its because of the paper work or whether some officers consider it beneath their dignity, or maybe they just don't like having to interact with chavs.
Whatever the reason its not acceptable. If laws are not enforced they might as well not exist.
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Too often now the police in the UK are being used for political purposes, i.e. to break up demonstrations, and to penalise the motorist instead of going after criminals. It seems to me that what the politicians want from the police and what the public want from the police are very different.
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If I went to my local court now there will gangs of teenagers and young men standing outside smoking and blocking the footpath, they are waiting to appear in court for anti-social offences, they will be fined which non of them can pay because they are almost all on benefits so they know they can carry on making peoples lives a misery and nothing is done. It would be nice to walk past knowing most of them would be going to prison but thats not going to happen
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Giving bobbies back the power to deliver a good cuff round the ear rather than pussyfooting about "human rights" while the yobs laugh. Stocks were a pretty good deterrent. You don't look like such a big guy with rotting veg and a chamber pot on your head!
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I think it is the responsibility of us all to tackle anti social behaviour not just the police. We as a society have allowed anti social behaviour to worsen over time. For example being drunk in public, particularly if you were a woman was a taboo thirty years ago now it seems to be a badge of honour.
If we are to improve the situation we have to introduce draconian measures, and start punishing people much sooner,by way of fines and community service.
I have a lot of sympathy for the police, as they have to complete endless paperwork just to posecute someone for a minor offence, and more often than not the individual ommitting the offence will not be prosecuted. It easy to understand why they don't both with anti social crimes anymore.
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"How should police tackle anti-social behaviour? "
The police are to soft with these people, they should go in hard violence is all these people understand, go in hard then send them to prison.
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Why do we always blame anti social behaviour on the Police, this is not a Police problem it is a social society problem. 40 years ago we didn’t need Police officers patrolling our streets to control out of control thugs that’s because parents were responsible.
The Britain we live in today requires both parents need to work to meet their financial commitments, 40 years ago mum was at home looking after the kids while dad was out working.
It’s no wonder our children are growing up out of control, growing up feeling inadequate unwanted and alone, the only way to stop the ongoing creation of even more problem children is to parent them properly.
Take the responsibility away from the Police who have much better things to do and place that responsibility upon the parent of the child. Fine them, jail them make them responsible for their Childs actions that way they will begin to parent knowing that it will be them who suffer for allowing their child to continue to plague society with the problems they create.
As taxpayers we are paying for other parents failures to control their children, make them pay.
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Zero tolerance and then when the POLICE have caught whoever is causing the problem, the troublemakers get 24 hours in the stocks. Then those on the receiving end of the criminal and selfish acts undertaken to deliberately make people miserable can have their revenge.
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Removing some of the targets that the Police now have might be a good start.
Most anti social behaviour starts in the home, too many dysfunctional families with children who have no respect for anyone.
I cannot remember when I last saw a Police Officer on his or her feet, our local PCSO does actually a very good job wth the limited powers that he has but has to cover a very large erea.
There was a time, not really that long ago that every village had a police house with a real policeman living there. There was also a time when local police stations were open 24 hours a day 7 days a week. the police houses have been sold and it is probably only a matter of time before some sttions are s well.
Many of the anti social problems on the streets would be nipped in the bud by a police presence.
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The defence against the report used by Greater Manchester is that the figures are five months out of date. I'm sure that the report published could not have been produced much quicker if it was to be a sensible review of the "current" state of affairs. I'm glad that GMP believe that improvements have been made in the past five months but this does rather suggest that the report is factually correct for 2009 (as long as the report is clear that the figures are at a point in time and is not meant to be 'up to the minute') and therefore there was a problem that has now been recognised by GMP.
Policing does seem dependent on the use of vehicles and, as noted by another respondent, officers could almost be protected from reality within their cars. I used to live in Nottingham in the early 1990's and it was a well known fact that any incident on a certain housing estate would be attended by at least two vehicles with two officers in each using lights and sirens - not to get to the incident fast but to make sure the culprits heard them coming and had left the area before police attendance since that was a way of making sure the incident ended without formal intervention. Are things much different now? There may also be a feeling of 'status' within Forces when officers, or PCSOs, are allowed to use police vehicles on official business.
Police visibility 'on the streets' is required - but in black uniform rather than hi-visibility vests since the latter can be off-putting to law-abiding citizens - but such visibility should not be limited to police vehicles. The 'bobby on the beat' may not be the optimum use of resource in financial terms but being familiar with the neighbourhood (and the neighbourhood being familiar with their local officer) would improve public confidence that their area was important to the police. However such a move would reduce the amount of time officers would have for completing the administration required following any arrest or incident but surely modern IT equipment should be able to minimise the administrative burden?
Anti-social behaviour is a crime against the community and should be treated as such - but other agencies (local councils, youth agencies etc) also need to play their part in minimising the impact on the community and should be supported, not necessarily by direct intervention but certainly by accepting the need for the return to a neighbourhood where all members of the community feel safe and able to assist where appropriate. Such assistance may be providing activities for young people to remove them from 'the streets' or by supporting the justice process via Youth Offender Panels, Special Constabulary, Magistracy etc.
A community problem should have a community response - and the Police are, and should be, part of that community.
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Just lock them up until they are unlikely to do it again.
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Since the coming of ''enlightened parenting'' feral children have grown up into feral teenagers. Parents are now looking the other way when their offspring commit any crime whether in school or on the streets. But touch the little darlings, put them into detention after hours at school and they use the full extent of the latest pussyfoot laws to prove their children are only ''being high spirited''.The police Chief has all our sympathy and support.
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Anti-social behaviour should be countered by a policy of ruthless zero tolerance. Perpetrators of this sort of offence should be considered to have surrendered any claim to have their own 'human rights' protected. (What about the human rights of the victims of anti-social behaviour?). Members of the public, in their attempts to suppress anti-social behaviour, should also be 'protected' rather than treated by the police on an equal basis to the perpetrators. No more being nice to yobs. Stop blaming society. Knowledge of right from wrong has nothing to do with personal wealth.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Is this looking at the problem in the wrong way? As a society we need to take back control in the first place. We have moved steadily to a society where "bad" behaviour amongst the young must not be punished. This means that children grow up believing that there will be no consequence as a result of their actions. This state continues until something so serious is committed that action has to be taken. At that point, society hand wringing takes place and complaints about the failure of police to take action arise. If children were brought up in a society that ensured that "bad" actions resulted in punishment, they would learn respect for others.
A flock of pigs has just passed my window.
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21. At 07:42am on 11 Mar 2010, Ron
Recommended! Talks complete sense.
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If I posted my solution it would probably not be printed here.
Basically a lot of the scum that perpetuate these crimes are a waste of human skin. They should be dealt with in the only way that would make them understand, that their behavior is unacceptable to society.
By this I mean physically harsh. At the very least the birch should be brought back.
I know this would bring a howl of protest from the wooly PC brigade, but lets face it the current arrangements don't work.
Why should the innocent be insulted, maimed and sometimes be killed by these idiots.
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Needs to be nipped in the bud and that means starting with good parenting. But that means making huge changes in society and it just isn't going to happen. The police in my area of London are obviously too busy dealing the burglaries and lots worse. But we do meet up with them from time to time. There needs to be more police and specially trained units to deal with all the feral kids and gangs around here. Are we willing to pay more council tax?
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It's been a fact of life for decades that the Police do not turn up for many less serious crimes and in some cases have discouraged the reporting of them.
But let's be fair to the Police, why should they have to pick up the pieces for failed or the lack of effective social policy?
Isn't anti social behaviour down to parenting, social conditions (the norm in the area), schools (standards within) and peer presure (trouble breeds more trouble)?
As a society we've all presided over the change in family life as more and more parents both work and travel more leading to ever less time for their children.
Disfunctional families have been increasing for decades including within so called middle class homes.
In some areas crime waves have followed imigration waves when seasonal workers find themselves out of work (according to locals).
We can not blame the Police for this, it's down to Greed and Government Policy (or the lack of it).
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It is costly to have more police on the streets. The costs are paid by Mr & Mrs average, people who do not create problems, most likley people like you. Why should you have to pay? The same applies throughout the criminal justice and penal system. Why not have massive penalties for all wrongdoing to *deter* would-be offenders? Deterrrence is the important issue; if people know when they are caught the penalty will be *massive* they might think twice before offending. I'm qute sure anti-social behaviour and criminality breed more of the same. If we could wring some of it from society we might break the vicious circle. And remember, if we are able to deter would be miscreants we shal not only have less problems caused by their behaviour we shall have less people being punished. It could be a win-win situation. The only losers woud be a few villains who took a chance. Tough!
*massive*...I mean whatever it takes to have effect. If thet means flogging and hanging, so be it. If it works as a *deterrent* we shall only threaten such punishments, not actually use them. Maybe a few crooks will get whacked or strung up. I don't care, if it makes life safer and better for the decent majority. I'm sick of all the do gooders and their sympathy for crooks. They are guilty of condoning wrong. If it were up to me, they would be the first for a good whacking. If I couldn't knock some sense into them I'd at least shut them up!
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I live in South West London in a great and ideal area but this location is being ruined by anti social behaviour! Groups of youths with agressive dogs, drugs and so on are threatening people. They would even leave those dogs in front of your front door! Last night the Police was called but obviously they turn up as noisy as they can so the Gangs can run away. I agree with a previous post as they do not take community officers seriously. The Police put a warning notice that I found on the floor the following day. They need to send plain clothes police officers at night by foot! They could come as if they were paying a visit to some friends and they would realize how scary it is to walk pass those young drug smoking thugs with very agressive dogs. They are even ruining the whole garden on the estates. If I had the choice, I would move out as quickly as possible as I remain convinced that something serious would happen and the Police would take no responsability for it. We pay rents and taxes to live like prisonners in our own Flats. Dugs, Dogs and refusal to go to school are a very dangerous combination and also it looks like they have no parents at all. Where do they live? Why are they allowed to control a whole area is beyond my understanding. Freedom gone mad, I say!
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Unlike the more conventional "do-gooders" I think that incarsaration is completely wrong. I believe that anybody who is under the age of 25 should be attached to a special unit of the Army where they would be tought the art of respect, and should this not work send them to the front line. When we sent youngsters to prison the end product is a more professional criminal. Do we want that? I think not. cruel to be kind is the motto we should use.
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About 18 months ago in a devon town 67 cars had their tyres slashed, 200 tyres in total.
Other than taking note of these and issuing "crime reference" numbers nothing has been done to identify those responsible.
Had a police car's tyres been slashed no doubt those responsible would have been found.
The po lice are quick enough attacking us but not in defending us.
Still I suppose those whose cars were on the public highway (not on their private drives) can think themselves lucky not to have been prosecuted for having a vehicle on the road with defective tyres.
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Police forces have lost public confidence, so they cannot lose something they no longer have. it is important to note that this isn't just about Anti Social Behaviour, it is about the utter contempt that they treat the public at large with. it is about the Civil rights that we all have that they blatantly ignore. it is about the way that a householder I know that could not get the police to their house for two weeks after they had been burgled, but they almost run over an old woman to get someone who (as it transpired hadn't) had been accused of shoplifting. and who can forget their abuse of the Stop and Search powers they were given a few years ago.
I have no confidence in them.
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One simple example:- Three young lads in my local town, known to be the main problem perpetrators of 'minor'crime in the area (theft of and damage to Cars), although they were arrested and taken before the courts over 100 times in one year the Courts, under the guidance of Home Office rules did not lock them up! The game was Offend, Arrest, Court, Re-offend on the way home. AT the end of the Year the three youths accounted for 50% of the recorded crime in the area, in spite of having been arrested for most of them. The failure was completely in the hands of the Courts, aided by those who prevented the removal of criminals from our streets.
Second example:- Police Sergeant and Assistant Chief Constable on foot patrol in main shopping street in Portsmouth during the late evening hear the crash of broken glass from a shop around the nearest corner. They run to the scene, there was no-one in the street. CCTV shows two shadows running into nearby ally leading to warren of side streets and alleyways. Every other Officer in area already committed to violent incidents or waiting to book in Prisoner to Custody Centre. Who to arrest? How to prevent re-occurrence?
Third example:- Football crowd going to match, hundreds of people, stone thrown though shop window behind Police Officers 20 yards away. Instant attendance by Officers, and detention of noisy group of 10 pointed out by witness. Problem in that witness cannot Identify who threw the stone, therefore NO evidence for Court so no-one can be arrested and charged.
There are thousands of examples available to illustrate the three main problems in dealing with anti social behaviour.
1. The Courts, under Home Office rules, failing to impose adequate penalties, especially for Juveniles, or even for Adults. In 1969 the Fine for being 'Drunk and Disorderly' in Andover Mags Court was £25 + £5 costs.(more than a weeks wages, or 100 pints of Beer) Portsmouth Mags Court recently fined someone the same amount more 40 years later.
2. The difficulty in obtaining, and producing, evidence of some offences. A charge of Causing Criminal Damage is nearly always impossible to prove, there is seldom any residual evidence to be gathered, seldom witnesses and seldom any forensic evidence to find.
3. There is a myth that 'Bobbys on the Beat' prevent crime. The truth is that the offences occur round the corner out of the sight of the Police Officer.
Ultimately until there is a criminal justice system that adequately deals with minor crime the offender has no reason not to offend. The Police can, and do get offenders to court, the failures are firmly at the feet of those who worry more about the offender than the public.
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It's not as if the main trouble spots and the regular offenders are not known to the local Police, so they should adopt the same or similar tactics to when tackling road offenders and have a concerted effort to "catch a few rabbits" and lock them up for the night in a Police cell. Then if their behaviour continues to be a nuisance let them feel the full force of the law.
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Most probably whatever we come up with will be met with " But it's against my/their human rights."
Aye Right!!
Well let's get the majority's Human Rights sorted FIRST...then let's ACT when anyone, not just the young, offend?
Is it just me......am I missing something...LESS talk how we should proceed AND about some REAL action ???
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"The police main job is to stop and prevent serious crime? not to be play ground supervisors, or stop private car owners' . Anti social behaviour should be for local councils to stop by fineing supermarkets and shop who sell alcohol to young children and under age youths?. who cause much of the troubles in every neighbour hood, All people drinking on the streets should be stopped and fined. Homeless people should be given help to stop drinking in every main city.Bad neighbours, should all be moved to a large sink estate by the council. The police should have nothing to do with this probelm.
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I think jumping on the Police force is far too easy,how about having a go at those who have created this maze of paper work and stifling legislation instead, how about jumping on the courts,who after a police man or woman has put their lives on the line,only give the criminal minimum sentence or sometimes no sentence at all,how about jumping on the powers that let dangerous criminals out far too early so they can continue in their life of crime.With all these burdens,no wonder our police do not have time or resources for these small but important crimes.
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I am a victim of abso behaviour. In my mind, the behaviour to target is on-going low level actions which are, by the victim, seen as intimidating. How do you do this? Firstly, you accept that the victim is being intimidated - I think a lack of empathy is an issue.
Do not go for the soundbite that this is our failed youth - there are a considerable number of middle aged asbo's.
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On Radio 4 this morning was a shining example of a career political policemans answer that the problem was not knowing which agency should deal with the anti - social behaviour and not effectively passing the report on to the said agency, when someone reports it to the police. Well, believe it or not Mr policeman, but if I were to ring the police about such a problem I would want the police to look into it , if he was trying to say they did not have enough police to deal with these matters then he should have said so , if he is to worried about his career to speak openly on radio about public concerns, then he should not in my opinion be in that position as i want and expect open and honest answers from him . regarding other agencies- who are they? and who is responsible for what? , it all appears too complicated and when a member of the public needs help they do not need confusion over this issue.
it appears it is not only politicians who are good at saying " not me Guv" it's someone elses responsibility.
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Well after having £2k's worth of dammage done to my car, (cost of having it off the road, lost work, not insured for that kind of dammage & so on.) and not forgetting everyone elses car which get's a kicking every Thursday/Friday/Saturday night but instead REGULARLY seeing police parked up doing stop & checks to see which CAR DRIVER is breaking the law/speeding etc I have zip respect for the bosses who decide who does what. (The beat copper has a tough job & I hope they are starting to stand up to their bosses regarding policing priorities and shopping their bent coleagues too. They can't fire all of you! Never mind the internal over 'PC' rubbish that goes on. If one of your top people is a crook what does that say to the public? That 'PC' game is a diversion, nothing more.)
Coppers are glorified parking wardens & that's all now. Not forgetting the warning signs all over Maidstone saying pick pockets are opperating in the area without a wiff of a copper in sight. Bet your bottom quid I'd get hung & dried in court if I dared to defend myself too. Yes I know I could get hurt. So what? My decision. Tired of being told I have to bend over and take it.
Take the handcuffs of the law abiding folk & let them defend themselves with reasonable force. The kids are running riot because there are no consiquenses for them. Work out how many hours of your life in work the vandles cost you. They're stealing bits of your life. Bits you wanted to use for something else.
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Scrap ASBOs, give the Police cattle prods.
Scrap prison, flog 'em, in public.
Make it fast, make it hurt, make it cheap.
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Anti-social behaviour is talking too loudly on your mobile on the train. Throwing stones at windows and vandalising cars is criminal damage. Constantly banging on someone's doors or windows is harassment, verbal abuse can be assault. Sir Hugh Orde suggested that people should contact agencies other than the police if they are suffering from 'anti-social behaviour'. Which other agencies exactly? People's lives are being ruined by crime and the police need to take it seriously.
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Firstly. We need a complete mind set change about the notion that children are small adults. They are not. Their brains have not yet formed completely; they have around 50% of the reasoning capacity of adults and empathy and thought for others is at a lower level to an adult brain. All advanced animal societies chastise their offspring. Whether that involves a growl or a swipe of a paw, why do we believe our offspring are different? They aren't.
I really pity the modern child. Bought up with the notion that they can do anything they like with the severest punishment being 5 minutes on the 'naughty step'. T.V., adverts and magazines screaming at them to become adults when they haven't even put nappies behind them. Entering school safe in the knowledge that no teacher has the power to even shout at them, let alone touch them. And we wonder why we have a problem? Sort out the above, then you will not have a problem to police.
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Stop calling crimes "anti-social behaviour"! As the report rightly points out, the difference is artificial and all crimes should be recorded as such. It would then be easier to identify repeat offenders and repeat victims.
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I disagree with lots of the negative comments about the police on here, their hands are often tied and they do a job which is now lead by 'targets' and 'public opinion'.
Unfortunately, if your problem isn't in focus for the current batch of targets or doesn't match whatever the local/national media are baying for then it won't get resolved quickly. What this country needs is a police *force* (yes, they're not a police force any more, they're a service now and you're their customer) that isn't beholden to the whims of the media or politicians, whichever pressure group has shouted loudest that month and isn't afraid to say boo to a minority group for fear of being labelled as un PC PCs.
We need a police force that can stand up for itself, be independant of politics and uphold the law, one that can even enforce the law where necessary.
If you want to know what the modern Police are all about, I suggest you search online for Inspector Gadget.
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I can't remember the last time I saw a Bobby on the beat in my neighbourhood, but I can remember the dozen or so times I asked kids to stop hurling rocks at each other near people's cars and houses.
The good thing is I am ex-Armed Forces and was able to "encourage" them to move on or they would...... I leave the rest to your imagination. They don't bother me any more, neither do the gangs in our local park, with whom I have had "discussions" about their language and behaviour.
The Police are losing the trust of the public and the battle to keep our streets safe.
I have been offered a place in a local vigilante group, which I am seriously considering. If the Police can't keep our neighbourhoods, old people and law-abiding citizens safe, then I know people who can.
A sad day when our law enforcement representatives have failed us. Sir Robert Peel will be turning in his grave!!
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As an ex- school governor I frequently heard the same few troublemakers names from the ages of 10 upwards. They are about 21-22 now, the four main ones are in prison for violent/theft offences. Long may they stay there. The trail of fear, destruction and long term upset they have caused in the area just gets swept away by the justice system. Despite years of police etc intervention they proved worthless to the vast majority of people and removing them from the streets has been the way to resolve the problem. Removing them from the education system would have been appropriate.
Do I live in a city, depressed area? No, nice market town in Oxfordshire. I conclude that our all inclusive, love them all social system for children fails.
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As the saying goes a Policemans lot is not a happy one!
I am a serving police officer of 20 years and have witnessed the demise of all Police Authority and social collapse over those years.
I could get on my soap box about many things but I will comment only about this topic. Not to justify failings within the Police service (force a taboo word), but to highlight some areas where many cops and I mean cops are left frustrated and demotivated by the Politcal issues and Corprate spin that seems to determine how we Police.
Its all about appeasing the Government with stats and figures. The way the home office and local authorities determine how we Police in line with this ideal is one reason why the public dont see cops on the street or tackling crime in a straight forward and positive manner. This and all the red tape and beaurocratic pressures on front line policing prevents Police officers getting out there and re assurring the public and more importantly victims.
The Police service is not and cannot be run like any other company. We dont design, manufactuer, market, produce, distribute units to others for profit to exist. We deal with people and theyre free will. Something we cannot pre empt or second guess. So why is it that ranks from inspector upward are now so driven by stats and appeasing those above them with monthly figures, graphs and flow charts?
This doesnt deter or detect crime.
The importance is not how many burglaries or robberies have been committed its what are we the Police, courts and the government going to actually do about it.
Anti social behaviour can only be tackled by cops on the streets taking positive action not ticket giving or being kept inside police stations form filling so that some statistician can finish off the pie chart for the next management meeting.
To re assure victims and the pulic front line Police should be left to Police in a positive and fair way without fear of criticism and copious amounts of form filling.
The Police service is now run by people who were once cops but have lost sight of what the public and Police need and it has been replaced with spin, corprate buzz words and beaurocricy.
need to know more.........
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It is hard to believe in these days of computers and databases that police, or other officials, can't quickly and efficiently manage anti-social complains and concerns. If a complaint has been submitted it is quite simple to log it and correlate it to previous or similar issues.
I have made numerous complaints to the police, the council, the councilor and the neighbouring school about the amount of litter being thrown into our back garden by students. Granted this is a trivial concern when compared to the anti-social behaviour experienced by others but I believe things like littering are a first step towards greater and more damaging behaviour patterns.
To date we've had minimal interest from either of these groups. The police did visit our home to 'discuss' the problem and even followed up with an e-mail (unfortunately the e-mail came immediately after the Christmas school break when no litter would be expected) but the school, the council and the councilor have never shown an interest in the problem. Wouldn't you expect someone to follow-up on our complaint and ask if the problem has increased, decreased or remained the same? That is what's not happening. A complaint is made and the authorities quickly forget about it. I dare say if I made another complaint the authorities would not be able to link it to previous communications.
I understand everyone is busy and probably feel they have no time to follow up on trivial calls but I also believe this is a major contributor to escalating anti-social behaviour. The anti-social individual is being taught their behaviour is acceptable and no action is likely until something extreme, like arson or suicide, occurs. Unfortunately, by then it is too late and the person's social attitude has been defined. Then we seem to have the funds to try and rehabilitate the individual.
We have Community Support Police Officers, the school has an officer permanently assigned (how sad is it that we need police officers assigned to our schools?) and the school administration itself surely must have some responsibility for students even when they're in the school yard but no one seems able to stop or control our complaint and that of our neighbours.
I can't see police budgets increasing too significantly so we need to make more effective use of the funds we have. The authorities seem to only take it serious when someone dies or when significant damage occurs. If more time and effort was focused on the beginning of anti-social behaviour perhaps we wouldn't see the extremes like a woman killing herself and her daughter. Unfortunately, that means we don't see improvements or benefits for a number of years and most politicians and I would say senior administrators (schools, police, council, etc.) focus too much on immediate results, so they can reap the benefits of short term success, rather than long term solving the problem.
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It would appear that the police have degenerated to little more than a branch of local government.
They have all of the same politically correct attitudes, are buried under the same mountain of regulation and paperwork, and appear quite oblivious to the anarchy taking place on the streets of our cities.
Perhaps the idea of elected police chiefs is a good one. If they know that bad performance will see the public consign them to the scrap heap, they just might have the incentive to stop persecuting the motorist, and pursue a few criminals instead.
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The HMCI failed to mention the Police are under resourced and have been for decades. In December 2009 the government announced another 500 million budget cut over the next three years for the Policing service, but the Police are still expected to do more for less.
Don't get me wrong, there is always room for improvement and one of the biggest frustrations I find for working for one of the Police forces in the UK is poor management. Police forces are run like business when in fact they are not. The Police service is a public service. Senior Police officers who have no idea of how to run a business are attempt to run it as such, and failing miserably.
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We lived with this in a small village in South Warwickshire in the late eighties and through the ninties. Numourous calls to Warwickshire Police elicited the following responses
1. There is nothing we can do
2. A Police Officer from Alcester visited us in our home and told us that if we kept calling them they would stop comming out.
My response was to make citzen arrests and call either their parents or the police to come and collect their wayward children. Despite handing over serveral youths and evidence to the police nothing was done.
Confidence in the police is now non existent. We now live in a town in Worcestershire. We hear the police, usually wailing past the house, sometimes see them but when they have been called to attend youths doing wheelies up the estate roads they don't bother.
The Police need taking gently by the throat and reminding what they are there for - to Protect and Serve!
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I think it would help if we had some sort of secret police,that patrol the streets in civilian clothes, and when they see someone commiting a crime they become judge, jury and executioner. They should be allowed to beat someone half to death if they consider it is appropriate. Of course many people wouldn't like this so all knowledge of the secret police would have to denied.
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Sooner or later we will have to get back to having real police officers on the streets.
I was a police officer in the 50's and 60's. I walked everywhere on my beat and dealt with everything. I went into shops and pubs and spoke to people and got to know things which could then be acted upon. Many places including villages had a resident police officer who knew everybody and sorted things out.
Today I am afraid the police have lost the ability to walk, they do not communicate with people in case they are told something which causes them work.
I occasionally see a 4 wheel drive police vehicle pass through our village, it usually contains two officers, they don't stop or even wind the window down to speak to people. They don't see anything or get to hear anything. The youths see them and carry on doing what they were about as soon as the vehicle is out of sight.
There needs to be a real sorting out in the police service, far too many vehicles for them to ride about in. Far too much time spent in the police stations. Discipline needs to return and supervising officers need to enforce it.
I had a chief inspector who dropped into the police station at all hours of the night. It wasn't unusual for him to creep in at 3am or 4am and woe betide anyone found in the police station without just cause.
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Police complain they are losing the respect of the community, well they only have themselves to blame.
Because of rampant police corruption in the 1970's the responsibility for taking villans to court was removed from the police and given to a bunch of time-serving bureaucrats the CPS.
The canteen-culture, spanish practices that would shame a left-wing trade union, and politicised officers kow-towing to politicians, all have resulted in a largely invisible, discredited force.
I have had to deal with police who have received numerous complaints from the public, only to be told they had no records of any complaint because nothing had been entered onto their computor. This is a neat little trick by the police. If you make a complaint and the police do not give you an incident number it never happened, does not have to be solved, and the statistics look good.
The police do have to give an incident number if you make an insurance claim for theft, but thats as far as it goes. My wife had her cycle stolen from the municipal baths/sports centre, approximately 200 yards from the police station in the centre of town. The thief was caught on 16 CCTV cameras, was seen cyling away, the sports centre had his details including address which they were prepared to give to the police. What did the police do; issue a number so we could claim on the insurance and then closed the case. They re-opened it at my wife's insistance and finally interviewed the thief two months after the offence, and suprise, suprise he denied it all.
If the police want our respect they must change their culture.
First get rid of all those non-ranks (acting assistant deputy chief constable).
Secondly the ratio of uniformed police officers at work and out of the station to those inside, should NEVER be less than 2/3 to 1.
Treat ALL crime as important. Target known offenders and pressure them to behave. (The aggressive tactics of Ray Mallon in Middlesbrough reduced burglary and street crime by 60%).
Take off the streets people who are causing a public disturbance and sentence them to be locked up for several weeks each friday/saturday night. They will soon think twice about causing trouble if they are locked up and their mates are having a good time.
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Not everywhere has these problems.
In the worst areas, gangs of kids just run off into the night when police turn up after violent or criminal damage behaviour has been reported.
These incidents happen again & again with the same groups.
Softly softly is NOT the answer.
I would use the police to ambush these groups & round them up & deal with them properly, making their parents go to police station & even give the parents a warning and even ban the parents from pubs & buying alcohol etc if their kids dont improve. Make the parents legally attend behavioural meetings.
If at the end of the day, these people refuse help & advise etc & to change, then I'd personally just dump them on a remote island & let them get on with it.
I am sick of forever paying more & more of my taxes to deal with cretinous nasty people who just refuse any & all decency of behaviour.
No country can afford the continual costs of such people. If they don't want to be part of a good society, then I think be rid of them. I'd even make them into dog food so they have at least some beneficial purpose.
Choice is simple, either behave or suffer consequences, but in our liberalist humane society, these nasty people are protected and more often than not cause continuous massive damage to others in society.
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The problem is the police have been totally demoralised by this government and spend so much time filling in forms and taking part in Labour' social engineering projects that they do not have time for old fashioned coppering.
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If anti-social behavior is ignored by the police the perpetrators begin to believe that whatever they do is acceptable and "right". We trivialize car theft by calling it "Joy Riding" we trivialize harassment and intimidation by saying youths have nowhere else to go, we trivialize benefit fraud and theft from shops. We even trivialize violence and excuse murder, rape, mugging etc but woe betide you if you object to extortionate council tax and you will be detained as a potential terrorist if you heckle a government minister.
When my car got broken into the police turned up 2 weeks later and were rather upset because I had had the damage repaired even though they told me they would not attend the scene and to go ahead and repair it. Other people I have come across have had similar experiences with the police when they reported a crime they were made to feel like the criminal not the victim. I have lost faith in the police service (do they still provide a service?). I know of few people who do still have an unqualified faith in them mainly because the only time you can be sure of seeing one is at a major traffic accident.
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In our area, the biggest obstacles are mid range police wanting to further their careers by making their 'patch' look as if it's under control and simply refuse to even record incidents that prove their fantasy wrong.
Some local officers really want to help - a minority - but everything halts one step up the chain.
Some officers are more interested in charging the decent citizen for target achievement & do nothing against the criminals, to the point the residents seriously wonder who-knows-who to have such incredible protection every single time a complaint is made.
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I would like to see stocks reintroduced to small village squares, such as we have in our litle town. And have the yobs put in them during the weekly market, so more people could ridicule them, and there would be plenty of ammunition available for throwing.
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The Police need to get out there and do what they are paid for.
Too many times they choose to take the soft option like hounding ordinary law abiding citizens eg. arresting a man for dariing to blow his nose in his car.
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Replace the "plastic policemen" with proper police officers. The only PCSO's I see walk around in twos, with little or no public contact - they seem to prefer to deal with a communities usually self-appointed "leaders".
Policing on the cheap was always doomed, but the accountants running this place told their lackeys the government that all would be well.
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it should be policed, not delegated down to plastic community officers. Sentencing should reflect the publics zero tolerance to these crimes.
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26: Ron
Excessive speeding is the issue. (eg: Harriet Harman was prosecuted, as was Meredydd Hughes, the utter hypocryte, for doing 30mph ish over the speed limit.) However you have to ballance that out. What is the point of doing someone for 56mph on the cusp of a 60-50 zone with no pedestrian access? That's equivelent of carrying a bit of puff for personal use. (Waggy finger) and a mid-stream drug dealer. (Prosecute)
If you want zero tollerence, fine but it has to be across the board. Prisons would be full in a week. There are so many laws out there, the whole thing's become meaningless especially if you have the money to pay for a clever lawyer or are in the right 'club' and none of it has anything to do with morals any more.
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More police are needed. The reason people don't see them around is because there are so few.
I police in Sheffield, and South Yorks Police has announced to cut costs it will be cutting the force, again, by 7%. Police levels will be at the lowest in the county since 1988. In the meantime the population of the area we police has increased by 20%.
The district is about fifteen by ten miles, and incorporates one of the largest council estates in Britain and over 200,000 people. Sometimes we only have four or five panda cars patrolling the area on a night. If we get a serious car accident then the entire lot could be tied up for hours at the scene cordoning off the road and getting witness accounts.
Antisocial behaviour is a blight on the lives of the people who live through it, but we are spread too thin to effectively deal with the root causes of it.
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Its not just their attitude to anti-social crime. The police have generally lost all respect, much the same as MP's etc.
They have low visibility unless its sitting by roads with speed traps.
They forget the most important part of their jobs 1. THEY ARE PUBLIC SERVANTS.
Too often they are viewed as Smart a-sed, lazy, self serving and uncaring. They seem to follow the worst examples of American cop reality shows. The stock answer they seem to use is There is nothing we can do !!
The service needs a root a branch overhaul begining with Serving the Public and giving them the protection from the scum in society.
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Lets get tough on these idiots ruining our country the namby pamby sentences because the prisons are full ( build some more ) The police are the government puppets so they will do anything , time for a revolution comrades
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How should anti-social behaviour be policed?
With extreme predudice!!!!
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Yet another public sector failure. Can we start looking at part privatisation of the police to enable efficient and innovative ideas come to action?
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Any chance that the moderators could automatically reject the predictable rants from those who think they should have been allowed to get away with speeding? The car is a far more dangerous weapon than a knife, and speeding is a significant factor it at least a third of accidents, and a much bigger factor in how severe injuries are that result from any such accident.
I worked in A+E for quite a while, and saw far more people killed and seriously injured thanks to speeding than to any form of antisocial behaviour - not that that cannot be extremely unpleasant, plenty of that in A+E too, but in general its bark is worse than its bite.
And I will freely admit that I got a ticket from a speed camera last year. Mea culpa, I paid up and got over it rather than letting it eat away at me.
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The Home Office, The Police and Ministry of Justice should completely re-think and abandon the term 'anti-social behaviour'.
Why? This phrase is totally inadequate as it TOTALLY underestimates and devalues the suffering it purports to describe.
The term MAY also be a convenient method to downgrade crime statistics?
Harmful, malicious, antagonistic, hostile, bullying, tormenting 'behaviour' etc., etc. These are far more accurate than 'anti-social' which is obviously too benign as it describes one who keeps to themself? If only these criminals would!
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The problem with the police is the police!
They are institutionally useless, and are at best an expensive irrelevance.
I remember when the police was generally respected, but things have changed. Police officers are rarely seen, rarely turn up when needed, and even when they do, it's difficult to see why they bother.
A more visible presence might be helpful, but the police are generally so useless and personally objectionable that it might actually be counter-productive.
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Much as I am not a violent person, I think the re-introduction of the "cat" or birch would be a step in the right direction. It is a punishment which is swift, very cost effective and something the scum of society would fear or respect.
There are two causes of anti-social behaviour. The first is loss of self respect and the last 13 years under Labour has created that culture. The second is exposure to violence and visions of violence through gruesome games and cinematogrophy. Gone are the days when such scenes were not screened but left to the imagination of the viewer.
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Community Officers are NOT the answer. Real Police Officers are needed, get them out of their Police cars and put them on foot patrol.
Too many times the police are reported as `not caring`, `no interest`.
People have lost confidence in the Law as a whole. Stupid sentences for criminals don`t help either.
The whole structure needs a acomplete overhaul before the people of the UK take matters into their own hands (which unfortumnately is happening now).
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The police should be allowed to do their jobs without fear of prosecution, support from the public and zero recrimination from the PC/Do Gooder brigade. Additionally, a government who has the guts and gives them their backing would help.
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Abolish PCSOs, turn them into regular officers. Get more foot-patrols through the community, harsher penalties and zero tolerance.
We've tried the carrot for over fifteen years. It's about time we tried the stick for a bit.
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14: IndigenousEnglishman
Borstal never left.. It's a little town in Kent with a big 'Youth Offender' institution. Believe it's full too.
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I hope I'm wrong about this.
If I'm a petty criminal, anti social person, whatever, and I misbehave, I'm served with a piece of paper and told not to do it again. Right?
Well it seems to be that way.
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The Home Office have set only one parameter by which our police are to measured and that is public (or customer) confidence. How on earth can one accurately measure this? In short, our Police Community Support Officers are tasked with conducting endless survey after survey after survey. This uses many hours every month of chasing named individuals, not all of whom even like to speak to the police and rarely make them selves available, (Why should they?) Surely this can never be totally representative of an entire community? If PCSO were to be freed from this pointless constraint they would be able to focus on getting stuck in to resolving community based anti-social behaviour. PCSO are not toothless tigers as has been suggested by some contributors. Those that bother to attend PACT meetings will bear me out on this. PCSO have been responsible for the longer term problem solving of issues rather than the short sharp shock that is barely punitive let alone restorative. The battle against anti-social behaviour is winnable if the available resources are allowed to get to with doing just that.
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I'm concerned by how many people here seem to think that anti-social behaviour is only ever apparent in children and teenagers. Where exactly do you think that these children and teenagers learn to be anti-social? I find that the appalling language, gestures and general behaviour of certain sports fans very anti-social. I refuse to take my children to football games anymore because I don't want my 6 year old son to ask why everyone is singing "the referee's a banker". (the real word failed the profanity filter, but this is close enough). I don't want him exposed to words. Unfortunately, a huge number of adults don't see the problem with using language like that in front of children.
I think it is adult behaviour that has changed so much of the last decade or two, and it is no wonder that children are growing up in to yobs when all they see is adults everywhere doing the same thing. My parents would never swear in public or in front of children, my father was always polite, giving up his seat for anyone more in need, and my mother made sure we were all clean, well-dressed and generally respectable. My husband and I can try to do the same for our children, but I feel sorry for their friends whose parents don't think that manners matter. Loss of manners is the start of anti-social behaviour, and we need to stop blaming the police and take some responsibility.
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With zero tolerance.
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Having being a victim of ASB, I am very impressed on how the police have/are dealing with my cases. I am a single black male living in rural Norfolk, after 4 years of living here have recently been a victim of continued racial abuse.
I am also apart of a forum set up by Norfolk Constabulary called The Unlicensed Music Events Forum, which has successfully kerb the rise of the Illegal Rave scene in East Anglia & beyond.
In both of these cases it is apparent to me that for the Police to successfully tackle ASB issues, they need intelligence from within the community where ASB occurs. I worked with the Police and gathered information to help them resolve both of the above.
Now that the Police have enough intelligence about these issues they continue to work with the victims and prepetrators to monitor and keep a lid of these kind of ASB events happening again.
Good work I say.
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Alan Baker, (Comment #5) makes a good case that could just solve our problems with the gangs and individuals who terrorise and destroy our nighbourhoods. His policy of zero tolerance that incorporates the arrest, trial and encarceration of offenders within hours - without bail, time-wasting background reports and pleas for clemency - should go a long way towards re-educating the offender's parents, friends and accomplices into a more responsible attitude towards the needs and rights of others in the community. It would, of course, have the added benefit of restraining today's army of bleeding heart Social Workers, Probation Officers and other offender support professionals from obscuring the rights of victims, justice and society.
The instant removal of such misfits from their homes, streets and fraternities would certainly make others think twice before committing any further acts of antisocial or criminal behaviour.
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I think there's a real danger of lumping together so called 'anti-social behaviour' (I hate this buzzword) with genuine intimidation, persecution, criminal damage and bullying. The family who were forced to endure years of misery, causing their suicide, were clearly suffering from a targetted campaign of nasty intimidation and bullying because of the disability of the girl. The trite umbrella term 'Anti Social Behaviour' doesn't begin to cover it.
I fear that police forces and the judiciary will lump severe cases like this in with trivial cases of ASB (such as drunken revelry and noise), and punishment for genuine cases will be too lenient as a result. A bit like the legal mess that surrounds death by driving - where offenders get off with a slap on the wrist for killing someone, because the law is vague. In this case, the term masked the real abuse that was going on and police did very little because 'ASB' probably isn't high on their list of priorities.
I have ASB outside my house during the summer, when people troop home from the pubs and clubs, singing, shouting, and arguing. It's annoying, but you can't expect people to tiptoe around, and some tolerance is needed. ASBOs should be reserved for people who repeatedly disturb the peace, hold regular raucous parties, or commit other minor(ish) offences that disturb or frighten people unreasonably. If they smash stuff up, then it's no longer ASB, it's criminal damage. If their behaviour is deliberately violent or intimidating then it isn't merely ASB. We mustn't let the police or the legal system use ASB as some sort of convenient smokescreen.
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Ani-social behaviour is nothing new. It was going on in centuries past, as well as during both world wars, the 50's up to the present day. The cause is British society, from the bullying of Tom Brown's schooldays, to heavy industry like steel making & coal mining. This brutilisation in society actually served us quite well when we needed to fill the army via conscription with ready made fighters when war loomed. Then, the people who would otherwise have been causing trouble on the streets slugged it out with the enemy in France, where many are buried, thus enabling housholders back in the UK to be able to leave their doors unlocked...
Because we now have the European Union, this has thankfully been consigned to the past, except of course, that Britain is largely stuck in the mindset of the past. We still brutalise our youth, but because they have no enemy to go & fight (except for the professional army) they're stuck here with all that pent up energy & end up roaming the streets. Their parents were the same, and so we have generations of people who (combined with the lack of low skilled jobs out there) know nothing else.
So, what can we do about it? It's all down to the start we have in life, and that for me, means education. I would ban all private schools, and make everyone subject to exactly the same education. If they can do it in Japan, we can do it here, and they haven't done too badly, have they? Especially when you consider how devastated they were after the war. I'd also consider the curriculum, and make children understand the value of self-respect, team work, and love of their community. This should be at the core of everything they do - EVERYTHING! Only then will we begin to see what this still great country could be.
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To those who carp on about "all the police want to do is dish out speeding tickets", fine. You scrape a child off the road. You tell the parent their child/spouse/parent is dead. See how much sympathy you have then.
Someone is killed on the roads of Britain every two hours. All are avoidable deaths, but I suppose we should spend our time on foot telling children not to play football too loudly, checking dog insurance, and getting cats out of trees.
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As long as we are run by power hungry leaders who refuse to acknowledge what is realy happening. The police will get the backlash. Immigration and religious factions overrule many typicle problems that arise. For instance most young men from EU countries are former service men trained in unarmed combat. Our community officers are expected to aprehend thses people! Yes OK. We have radicle religion's flouting the law and inciting hatred on our streets, but noting is done in case they are accused of being racists. Its about time we all woke up. This is the British Isles.
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I totally agree with number89 "sleuth999"s comments. , I am a serving Prison Officer of 30 years and this is exactly the story of the Prison Service. Too much spin - they are now going around in circles spending taxpayers money for no gain.
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Get police on the streets and scrap the ridiculous paperwork and targets!
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With police on the Streets, but there is one big problem and that is they have their hands tied because of red tape and human rights and that crime seems to pass unpunished today.
More news today of anti social behavior running riot that ended in a fatality in the news today because of like of policing, minor crimes not being reported because people know their complaint will pass unnoticed, and that criminals gets all the care in the world while the victim's suffer.... crime needs to be policed without any 'soft touches'.
Looks like this government has 'feathered the bed' - how are they going to resolve it without spending money - too late in the day I'd say, and it's something that's not going to be achieved over night with weasel promises.
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The police have batons. Use them!
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We need new legislation to make parents responsible for their kids' behaviour while they're minors. Fine or imprison the parents and if they can't afford a fine because, say, they're not working, give them a dose of community service.
They'll soon start taking an interest in what the kids are doing.
For those over 18, give them the choice of a year in the Forces or prison.
This is another case of reliance on a computer system that doesn't work. We have anarchy on our streets but no means of tracking who's doing what.
Get the police out there in the community with the ability to make summary arrests and force parents to be responsible.
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ANY policing of the anti social elements within our society would help instill some confidence in the police!
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It shouldn't be about how we police it. If the anti-social behaviour didn't exist in the first place, you wouldn't need to police it. Prevention is better than cure.
As a country, we are great at letting people know what their rights are and what you can and cannot do to them, but we are absolutely useless at making people understand from an early age what is expected of them in a society. Responsibility, accountability and respect for others is what is needed to be taught from an early age. What they can and cannot do to others.
Having a free rights environment does not fit with an anarchy free society. If you give people lots of rights and create lots of legislation and laws - then you need to provide a lot more people to police them. It's not rocket science.
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How should anti social behaviour be policed? By the Police would be a good start.
I thought Sir Hugh Orde's Today interview this morning was condescending and unhelpful, bordering on arrogance. All this stuff about 'appropriate agencies' merely muddied the waters, and to say that the police have to make choices is unacceptable. The Police are there to enforce the law - not to pick and choose, and say what laws they think matter. If they haven't got the resources then they should look at themselves and their efficiency, and perhaps ask themselves whether or not they're going the right way about getting those resources. Sir Hugh seemed to be wanting to pass the buck.
And its so short-sighted. Would they rather have a murder inquiry with all its demand on resources, (quite possible over something trivial), than having a proper uniformed police officer nip a potential disaster in the bud?
As for the comparison with Germany, I don't know about the rougher areas of the big cities, but my own experience and talking with the German half of my family and their friends (including a police officer) suggests that young people there definitely are more respectful of society, without being oppressed by the police. Of course there's the occasional patch of graffiti, but not like here. Maybe because they don't have the arty brigade enthusing over a graffiti 'artist' as we've had in Britain.
I'm afraid its just another instance of 'Broken Britain' - and that won't be put right by inter-Agency co-operation, especially when all the agencies are vying with each other to avoid responsibility. Now, there's something very resource-intensive.
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The problem for public confidence is made obvious by the comments on this page. The articles states specifically the problem is with anti-social behaviour issues like "harassment, vandalism and verbal abuse." However, in the minds of many (especially with a little tabloid sensationalism) this translates to problems with the scary crimes, e.g: muggings, robbery, murder etc.
All crime surveys show a massive drop in these crimes compared to previous decades, however the continuation of any crime seems to mean people fear the presence of their most feared type of crime.
This is a difficult issue to fix without getting all crime down, which is very difficult (e.g. drunks like to fight, not much police can do there). Maybe better education over the rates (and rarity) of different crimes would help.
Certainly, knee-jerk suggestions like "make prison harsher" don't seem likely to achieve much.
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Sentence them to two years in the ARMY and send them to Afganistan with no salary.No second chances, First strike and your IN.
It will soon stop.
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A start would be more police on the streets patrolling, not sat in an office filling in form to satisfy this government.
next a zero tolerance stance with parents being held to account for there childs behaviour finally take there benefits away.......
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Anti-social behaviour has gone on virtually unchecked in our area since 2005. Where local youths have been allowed get away with theft, intimidation and drug abuse – as they have – they will continue to do so. Given the number of times that a particular youth has been caught by the Police in possession of either the products of vandalism, (car badges & emblems ripped off residents’ cars) stolen goods (mobile phones) and drugs, we have to wonder why he has never been prosecuted and punished. Having got away with all these things, it’s small wonder that he continues his life as a petty criminal, and this encourages others to do the same, and they get away with it, too. So it’s also small wonder that people like us think that those in authority don’t care. Because if those in authority did care, then something would be done about this situation.
We don’t single out the Police as failing to deal with the situation. They do what they can with limited resources, and have been very supportive. But from meetings we have had with the various local authorities, it is quite clear that they do not communicate with each other.(except to pass the buck)
The Crown Prosecution Service and the Judiciary, together with Social Services, the District Council and the local Housing Association have had numerous opportunities to sort out these problems, and nothing (since 2005 at any rate)has happened to change this situation, and until something serious like a murder takes place, nothing will.
We have chosen to make a stand against anti-social behaviour, and our reward was to be threatened with violence. Whilst the police were supportive, there was little they could do, and none of the other local authorities showed any interest in our predicament whatsoever.
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One of the main issues is extreme scrutiny and appeasement of the political correctness lobby. This has lead to inordinate amounts of paperwork in an effort to gain 'consent' from criminals etc for their arrest. If we want an effective police force we need to free them up from the interfering compliance culture.
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The incidences of anti-social behaviour and the ever increasing threat of violence that accompanies it began when corporal punishment was banned in schools. The subsequent lack of respect for authority coupled with the loss of any meaningful punishment has created an environment in which disrespect, selfishness and general bad behaviour is at best tolerated and at worst accepted. The continuing gutless attempts by central and local government to stamp this out testifies to the way that the politically correct, corduroy wearing, leftist apologists have gained ground within the establishment. No one in authority will speak out or more importantly act ruthlessly to remove this stain on urban life. The police have been hamstrung by red tape, cost cuts and targets and have effectively ceded control to the gangs. Parents must be made more accountable for their children's behaviour. Government must bring back discipline in schools, corporal or otherwise that punish not cosset and local and central government must allow the police to act decisively in rooting out this blight. Magistrates MUST then apply punishment that hurts. ASBO's, community service etc are not severe enough. Removal of hooligans personal property, a ban on wearing hoodies in public, curfews on individuals, banning convicted individuals of congregating in groups of more than 3, removal of their mobile phones (and banning theim from obtaining an new airtime agreement) are all things that would hurt them, not physically but materially. A part of me would like to advocate public birching of these individuals howver that would just make martyrs of them and increase their standing within the gang. Removal of personal status symbols would be far more debilitating to them on a personal level and it is on a personal level that the punshment should be directed.
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Hampshire Police do not take anti-social behavior seriously.
My neighbour and I have reported instances of being sworn at, called foul names, dog mess thrown in my garden, being spat at, being stared at whenever encountered on the street, and offensive gestures, but the Police and the local housing association DO NOT consider this actionable.
He has tried to run my neighbour off the road and prevent her from parking her car, by standing in the road, screaming threats her and kicking at her vehicle leaving her terrified but still the Police have done nothing.
It is a total farce to say that the Police take anti-social-behavior seriously.
The perpetrator lives in the property between our houses and regularly heard shouting at his children at 2am disturbing my neighbour and her family, he kicks and hits his dog on a regular basis and subjects his children to verbal threats and abuse, but still the agencies do nothing.
Is it any wonder that the public 'take the law into their own hands' because the people who are paid to protect us don't take the issue seriously.
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How should anti-social behaviour be policed?
Agressively. Robustly.
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Anti-social behaviour is very uncomfortable for all of us, whether we are the victims or witnesses. It's one of those "crimes" that leaves many of us helpless. We are reminded in the news of those brave enough to stand up to these bullies who are then beat to death and so we are driven further inside our fear bubbles.
Firstly, we need to report all anti-social behaviour, especially dates, times and locations. It's highly likely the the offenders offend in a certain area. Secondly, the police need to take these reports seriously - part of the reason why people don't bother in the first place...what's the point? Finally, action needs to be taken, whether it means more police in that area, searching records and reports for commonalities or even adding more police community workers (although, I find these to be less effective.)
I'm sure most of us have been party to anti-social behaviour at one time or another and it's time it stopped. I don't enjoy being followed home by a group of lads whispering to me, "Fancy a gang bang?" and can't think of many women who would enjoy this. Did I report it? No. Did this happen to more than one woman that day/week? Probably. Are these boys still out there making people feel insecure? I'm sure of it.
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In my community most of the problem was caused by youths drinking. When the recession hit ASB fell. I can only think that the youths parents could not afford to give their kids money to buy alcohol. If people took responsibility for their children and youth projects and initiatives were setup with as much energy and enthusiasm as was given by people moaning about youths i am confident that most ASB would be resolved.
I would also like to point out that not all youths are bad and that the media has created a fear that needs to be addressed. I have had problems with youths myself knocking on my door and running away as well as stealing the caps from my car tyres. Did i call the police? - No! I went out and had a chat with them. I was calm and articulate. They apologised and i have not had any other problems. If you go out ranting and raging you become that nutter at number 10 that they can wind up when they are bored.
The police should be left to police and miserable people who forgot that they were young once should put their energy into something constructive. The police do a tough job and i support them fully.
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As a serving Police Officer I can understand the frustrations in peoples comments on this post as currently you do not get the service you deserve.
But there are many reasons for this.
The Police service have become political whipping boys bowing to the demands of what ever new government idea has been launched to increase confidence in new labour.
We are constantly chasing our tails attending the same addresses day in day out because the so called justice system fails to give adequate punishment for crimes.
The number of incidents reported in my force daily range between 2500 - 3000 and with approximately 500 or so PC’s available to respond we can't be every were at once.
I would love to be able to walk down your street and clear off the local scum for you but I also have to attend Burglaries, robberies domestic incidents, scenes of car crashes, sit at hospitals with mentally ill people, progress the 15 or so crimes I'm currently investigating, Process the paperwork and computer inputs required to meet the 'accepted standard', attend reports of threats-harassment-assaults large fights small fights ..... this list is endless and the bobbies are few.
The majority of the above are committed by the same people who pass through our doors on an almost weekly basis but are not effectively dealt with at court. They are the parents of the little idiot at the end of our street setting a shining example for little john.
Please accept my sincere apologies with the service failings but understand why its failing and don't drop the entire blame onto the Bobbie who, god willing might get an opportunity to pay a glancing visit and attend to your problem.
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Personally I think we need to focus on restorative justice by which I mean - individuals & their parents/carers are required to clean graffiti, pick up litter, repair fences & do community service to make amends. In most case people believe they can get away with things or that the punishment they might get is not a deterrent. There are no rules , no discipline & no consequences - without a change to these parameters things are likely to get worse.
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Please pass this message on to every Chief Constable, whoever they are. "Get the police back on the beat in 2's 3's or 4's, I don't care how many it takes, just make sure they are police officers and not citizens dressed up in Community Support uniform. Get rid of the phrase Anti Social Behaviour, it's called Hooliganism plain and simple and culprits should be placed in Borstal, not some fancy worded detention centre. Put police portacabins in the community to show police presence and to act quickly to local issues. Get back to policing, which is what the word means." Waiting....
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We need more police patrolling the streets, especially in problem areas, I have had issues with a neighbour - who wasn't identified by the Police, probably because I waited 4 days to even get one to attend and he didn't 'make enquiries' with other neighbours. I had a used needle put in my letterbox and ketchup thrown all over my door, when the policeman did arrive, he claimed it was my fault for "giving him an icorrect number" it turned out he was ringing my office number on a weekend - despite the fact on his sheet which I looked at had my home and mobile phone numbers on it as well. I made a formal complain and as a result of the lack of assistance, I still don't feel safe now. Why do we pay them a portion of our council tax when nothing is done for us?
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Despite the fact we have lots of very expensive government agencies and schemes for dealing with anti-social behaviour they are completely innefective against some members of society. They simply do not have the teeth to deal with people who do not feel any social responsibility.
Only when people lose rights to benefit and housing or are locked up will they understand.
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Anyone convicted of anti-social behaviour should be made to do national service and sent to the army, ASBO's are a joke, some sterner punishments are required!! The army will teach them discipline and respect, and also give them employment at the same time.See how many of them carry on their behaviour when one of their mates is in Afghanistan for behaving the same way!!
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The Government, Home Office and Ministry of Justice are to blame for inventing the term 'anti-social behaviour'.
This helped crime statistics? Plus turned malicious, bullying and AB into something merely 'anti-social'???
I don't blame the police forces as a whole. However, there are some Police Chief Constables who operate a 'golden standard' who task their staff with focusing on the MINORITY who commit the MOST crime. Why does the Ministry of Justice obstruct that work?
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I have witnessed a pair of PSCO's walk past a group of young teenagers, drinking alcohol and shouting abuse, but they just walked on past without a second glance.
I have also witnessed a youngster issued with an on the spot fine for littering. The poor lad was about to put the crisp packet in the bin but the wind blew it out of his hand, before he could react, he was grabbed by them. I intervened but was told that if I didnt walk away, the police would be called and I would be arrested for breach of the peace!
Unfortunately the measures that the Police are rated against drive the wrong behaviours and need a radical overhaul by the government.
Neither the Police nor the PCSO's take anti social behaviour seriously, they are more concerned with looking for 'easy' convictions that make their stats look good.
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I would like to know what proportion of time the police spend chasing motorists compared with actually policing the streets because we never see them. Last week I reprted anti social behaviour by some youths. I am still wainting for the police. It wasnt even pub chucking out time. I think that anti social behaviour by youths should result in the parents being penalised heavily. There should also be tougher penalties on licensees who continually allow out of control drunks to be served alcohol on their premises. Parents of young children who allow them to roam the streets aftre 8pm should be made to be accountable and forced to attending parenting courses.
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Well, I was going to comment on this, but I see little point after I read the very first comment on this blog. I think KAOwen has already summed it all up perfectly. What else is there to say?
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This sort of debate breaks my heart - instead of the anger being focused on the criminals, it's wasted on the Police, the very people who are there to help and protect us. I don't doubt that there are failings in the service they provide, but the siwftness with which we condemn them in their entirety is astonishing - all through this topic I see people complaining about the Police wasting their time catching speeding motorists - do you have any idea how many people are killed on britian's roads every year? The number is vast, and speed is a major factor in a vast percentage of casualties, yet we bemoan the very policing of the roads as a waste of time.
The Police for all their failings represent law and order - if you're not with them, what side are you on?
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Once it has reached the stage where the Police have to become involved it's too late.
Discipline should begin in the home.
The only thing the police should do after this is to discipline the parents via sanctions already available.
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Labour are reaping the fruits of absolving parents of all responsibility.
Where are the parents in all of this? If their darlings are out causing trouble, then sort the parents out - the onus is on them to be responsible.
If Nu-Labour would stop telling everyone how to run their lives and simply transferred responsibility tied to consequences back onto the parents, we might see some progress.
The Police are in an impossible position but dont always help themselves by not consistently going out and facing down some of the idiots causing mayhem.
Most people dont want to get involved because of the number of people that have been attacked and murdered as a result of doing so - to which the courts are woefully inadequate.
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I could understand people becoming suicidal or living in fear because of crime and anti-social behavior.
After being victimized and attacked eighteen times so was I.
The police (when they could be bothered to respond) usually arrived three weeks later, and even then, they said they needed proof...but if they came at the time rather than three weeks later they might have caught them.
I wrote to my local councillor and visited my MP's surgery to discuss the problem. He assured me he would be contacting the police to find out 'what was going on'. I heard nothing back. The crime continued.
So I wrote further emails to my MP Don Foster asking for copies of tangible proof of any letters he had written to both the housing team and the police regarding these issues.
I never heard another word from him either.
And as for the police they eventually got back to me and said that many of the records regarding the previous crimes had been 'mislaid' due to a system update. As yet, these have not been found.
In other words the crime hadn't even been reported officially.
So yes, antisocial behavior and crime is a major problem but it is the incompetence of those in a position of dealing with it which is an even bigger issue.
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I think this highlights an important and major feature of our society: that minor criminal and antisocial behaviour go unchecked and unpunished, resulting in diminished respect for the rule of law as a whole.
If you get away with riding a bike without lights or on the pavement, using foul and abusive language, public drunkeness, urinating in public, harrassment of neighbours - the list goes on and on, but it adds up to a failure of the agencies of the Law, to uphold and enforce the Law. This is a fact of daily life in this country, and it's what David Cameron means when he talks about a "failed society".
There's no point in passing yet more legislation, if you fail to enforce your existing laws.
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Ironically, anti-social behaviour is sponsored by the taxpayer. The benefits system has facilitated rude, thick, ignorant pondlife to knock out kids with impunity. Sad, isn't it when something done with the noblest of intentions, i.e. protecting society's weak and vulnerable, becomes the cruelest of jokes.
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If the police arrest them, the free (to them & thier parents, you and I pay for it though) solicitor plays it down in court and the magistrates swallow it down and believe every word of it - obviously the police are making it all up. It happens in my area day after day after day. Once a youth has gone to court and seen that nothing real happens then naturaly that removes any remaining reservations they have. It doesn't matter if your police arrest them all every day, it all falls apart at the magistrates courts. If they are *really* bad they get "sentenced" to have to talk to a social worker once a week for a couple of months. I have watched them come out the court and start to laugh - with my own eyes.
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144 Leeoldham
"Please accept my sincere apologies with the service failings but understand why its failing and don't drop the entire blame onto the Bobbie who, god willing might get an opportunity to pay a glancing visit and attend to your problem."
You make some valid points, and it is clear that individual officers aren't to blame for all the failings of the police. You are, to a certain extent, victims of the failings of the bureaucracy imposed on you by the hierarchy and politicians.
Also, like any other large group of individuals, it's difficult to generalise about the police.
That being said, on the rare occasions when I've actually had dealings with the police, the individuals involved were useless and, unfortunately, personally objectionable. One time in particular, I felt the officer involved was actually trying to provoke me to become aggressive with him, no doubt scenting easy 'process', and maybe a compo claim?
The police really has spent a lot of time and effort over the last few years turning the essentially law-abiding against it.
That is due to the bureaucratic reasons you mention, but it's also the fault of individual officers and their actions and attitudes.
In years gone by, if I'd seen an officer being attacked, I've have helped the officer. Now, I'd walk on by and leave them to it.
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The problem with anti-social behaviour will never be solved through effective policing alone. The simple fact of the matter is that most anti-social behaviour is committed by youngsters, whose parents are either too lazy or simply too stupid to instil in their offspring the appropriate ways to behave. We need laws that will hold parents legally responsible and accountable for the actions of their children and if that means fining parents heavily or removing children into care then so be it. The courts also need to take these matters seriously, there's no point in the police arresting an individual for anti-social behaviour if when it gets to court the magistrate imposes a mere "telling off" or a ridiculously small fine.
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Better than it is now.
I tacked a group trying to put my windows through & got 6 months. I wish now I had given one of them a good beating to make the time inside worthwhile, but all I had done was grab one of them.
There is no justice in this country & West Yorkshire police are a joke.
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Why not follow the example of the army, those convicted of anti social behavior spend there 'free time' on their knees scrubbing the streets untill what ever it has cost to catch and try them is paid for, charge them @ the legal minimum wage.
We get streets that are clean, offenders get to know the pavements of their high street well and maybe learn something.
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I live in Kent, we have a field gate which is located 200 yrds down a side road off a main road just outside a town. We get domestic fly tippers throwing their black sacks over the gate in the summer (i susspect its a get ride of rubish before the summer holidays).
The half dozen times its hapened the police have refused to investigate and or even issue a crime report number.
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8. At 06:46am on 11 Mar 2010, Mustafa Beer wrote:
"Police are more interested in issuing speeding fines to motorists than catching real criminals. Kids don't respect police like older generations did. Our society has changed for the worst....."
How true - it reminds me of little scene, played out in front of our village shop a few months ago.
The usual teenage suspects were horsing around, drinking lager from tins bought by a couple of the older kids, shouting abuse at the world in general and harrassing anyone who used the ATM machine, by the shop.
Someone must have complained to the police, because the local bobby turned up in his Panda, got out and promptly took off his hat before speaking to the boys. They virtually ignored him, continuing to hoot and shove each other, as he talked to them. He got back in his car, and drove off.
A few days later, I asked him why he'd removed his hat, before talking to them. "So I represented less of an authority figure" was his reply.
Suddenly, I knew why it's all going so wrong.
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The police simply don't have the man power/resources to deal with the majority of crimes these days. Government pressure for headline grabbing targets comes before real public concerns. Issues such as anti-social behavior that have an everyday impact on huge numbers of people are forgotten about.
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It begs the question how much are the people at the inspectorate paid to come up with blindingly obvious decades late.
Whilst living in Reading some ten years ago, there was a spate of abandoned cars getting systematically vandalised on our street every night. On top it was happening at around 11pm, about pub closing time. I phoned the local police and suggested they might want to be present and do something about it.
The response: "We can't respond to crimes like this there are only two police on duty on any given evening during the week".
On top the woman in the call centre was indignant that I'd called with such a minor issue, for the tow busy constables, who inhabit a multimillion pound building in the centre of reading staffed by hundreds of people, doing what?
I have complete confidence in the professionalism of the police, but honestly the management and the structure is dreadfully inefficient.
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There needs to be more police officers around. Not just driving cars, stopping people for going 2 mph over the speed limit or fining them for blowing their nose at traffic lights.
There also needs to be a reduction in paperwork and 'targets' for the police. You can't set targets for solving crimes, or a certain number of arrests per month or whatever, it just can't work that way.
Much 'ASBO' behaviour should actually be classed as criminal behaviour, so put them in prison for a few nights, or bring back the stocks.
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I think this all stems from the fact that anyone in authority has had their power revoked. Teachers, Parents and Police. If my kids step out of line and deserve to get a clip around the ear hole then I don't have a problem with that. Don't get me wrong I don't condone the smacking of children but, these people are not children but, teenagers who are totally aware that no one can touch them. The only thing the schools can do now is exclude them but, as my own kids have pointed out that doesn't bother them in the least. As my youngest said "I'm not bothered, I get a day off school."
Give back our power to disipline them!
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There seem to be a lot of posts on here blaming the police for targeting traffic crime. Traffic crime can kill people and crime is crime.
Also people seem to think that the police don't care. Of course they do, but they have to work within the confines of what they are told by their respective police authorities.
It is not the bobby on the beat that is to blame but the system.
If you want more police you will have to pay more tax. Life is simple. People in this day and age want everything. They don't want a nanny state unless it is in their favour.
If you want the police to deal with so called anti-social behaviour you have to give them the tools and the authority to do so, instead of berating them everytime you think they have been too harsh.
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"16. At 07:27am on 11 Mar 2010, henhouse wrote:
Anti-social behaviour means action against ones own community. This is also a failure by the community. To prevent a repeat on release the local community should be able to persuade him/her to re-enter a community that shows that it cares."
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The problem is the sort of action that would have been taken by the communities themselves prior to the 1990's (that would have stopped minor criminal or threatening behaviour dead) would now actually land the people trying to stop it in trouble with the police (and the police would be bothered to turn up for that, without a doubt - they like an easy target to bump up arrests).
Which is the problem, where as once it took "3 strong men to make a good street" now no one dares because the "law" such as it is, is actually on the side of the thugs.
Utter madness...... yet this is the reality of today's United Kingdom.
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These kind of lads only respect strength. You cannot rely on the Police to help you.
We had problems with a lad and his friends for many years. Nothing was done. I waved a spade at him for 10 seconds and they called the police! They were round in 40mins!
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Believe it or not, the police actually get to choose which situations to bother with. Political correctness and health and safety issues hinder our society to the point where everyone is worried about being sacked and or sued. Youths roam the street, knowing the law, pushing the limits and happy that they cannot be touched. Bring back old fashioned policing, i.e. height restrictions, ex-service record, get the 5' 8st do-gooders (who don't do good) out of circulation. If they fear nothing, we have a BIG problem.
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I complained about the level of policing in my area in Wiltshire. I was pretty severe in my comments and complained to my local Conservative MP.
So enraged was the chief of Wiltshire police when he was contacted by my MP that he telephoned me directly and attempted to imply I had somehow got it wrong. I let him talk himself out and then said what he was trying to convince me with was not borne out by the lack of action in my area and the complete non-presence of police officers on the ground.
Clearly, some police chiefs are so wrapped up in the numbers culture and are determined to do everything to deflect the (rightly so) criticism of of the public who clearly are not being fooled by the Government PR nor the policing methods.
Bottom Line: Policing is currently pathetic with regard to community safety and visibility. I have seen a policeman/woman less than 8 times in 7 years in my area and I walk my dog for about 2hrs each day around our large village.
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Labour governments always favour criminals over their victims, but don't expect a sudden change after the election. The next government is going to need a lot of pressure before it improves anything.
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It's already been said by many people and is quite blindingly obvious how to deal with anti social behaviour but many chief constables think they are above approach and always ignore the general public.
1. Anti social behaviour is a crime and takes place on the streets. Therefore we need Police on foot on the streets and not in cars which should only be for back up.
2. When a crime is reported it must be acted upon immediately. It's no good the police moaning about their work load if they hadn't let the situation get so out of hand it would be more manageable. They will just have to do unpaid overtime until they have cleared up their mess. It is their responsibility, they are charged with the job of tackling crime. If they feel they are not up to the job then they should stand aside and let another organisation move in.
3. Sensible and swift sentencing of offenders.
If you take firm and swift action on 'minor' crime it will help to adjust all crime downwards.
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In fairness,the police in my area have been very good when incidents have been reported to them. They have always been polite and helpful, and done their best to sort matters out. However our police station is only open during office ours so sometimes it takes a long time for the police to respond to an incident.
I think police ought to be more visible at the weekends, when most trouble starts, and not be cruising around in police cars. Unfortunately with such a large rural area as mine to cover and not enough staff,this can be difficult to achieve.
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125 Bob. We don't need lecturing on How speed kills, but does it really need THREE policemen parked in an unmarked van on a grass verge.
We all know trapping speeders, many only a few mph over the limit fetches in a great deal of revenue.
Priority must be given to making people feel safe in their homes.
Like many others I have been victim to a break in, the police arrived SIX hours after it being reported.
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The police should get out of attempting to tackle anti-social behavour (if they haven't already) and leave it up to private enterprise. Or the charity sector: perhaps the Marie Stopes Foundation could make a strong contribution. I had a vasectomy with them several years ago and haven't bred any yobs since!
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We have lots of problems in our area, drug taking/dealing, verbal abuse, threats, vandalism, arson, burglary, joy riding. The police do nothing more than issue incident numbers each time. We've been campaigning for a SARA to up police presence, but the police aren't interested. They rarely even show up when you call them.
We've also been speaking to the housing association that houses these thugs but they can't do anything to evict them without vast amounts of evidence, like photographs. However the last time one of my neighbours photographed one of the 19 year olds vandalising a car he was called a paedophile by the youths. Just what exactly are people supposed to do??? Oh and all of this is happening in Cheltenham, hardly the crime capital of the country. How Labour can claim we're not in Broken Britain I don't know.
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Local police chiefs should be voted in by the residents of a particular area.
If they do not sort things out quick then they should be sacked.
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national service , clip round the ear by parents instead of counciling ,instead of a shoulder to cry on and a helping hand from the PC brigade . When famalies and kids came out of the tube stations and found there streets gone in the war , did they go oh no better go to councilling and therapy ...no they got on with it and thats the way kids were brought up .they knuckled down and get on with life not " its not youre fault its society " doing this to you . kids have no fear today because they have nothing to fear anymore , .....
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I get fed up with the police getting blamed for not stopping anti-social crime. If the police went in hard and cracked a few skulls the do gooders would be on their backs, The police should be able to go onto these estate clean up our streets.
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#47 "It suggests to me that there is a culture within the police of ignoring minor crimes. I don't know whether its because of the paper work or whether some officers consider it beneath their dignity, or maybe they just don't like having to interact with chavs."
I wonder if it is actually the court system (and government who dictate THEIR rules) that is at fault.
Maybe the police know that even if they do find the person who but a brick through someone's window, that person will get away with it in the courts, so, that discourages the police.
It's simpler to go after the mostly law-abiding people who drive slightly too fast, or park an inch outside a parking bay, because they know that those people will pay their fines without an argument, and will be a 'case solved' tick in their stats.
And, cut back the paperwork to a reasonable level. I don't know what they have to do, but more than 5 or 10 minutes worth of writing up for something like a vandalised car seems excessive. Give the officers smartphones with a 'reporting App' and a built-in camera, and they could pretty much do it all at the scene in a couple of minutes.
Heck, in many cases, the victim would be quite happy if they could submit the details online themselves.
What the victim wants is not to be able to report the crime to a police officer, but that it's followed up properly afterwards.
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Anti Social Behaviour and the causes behind it - Another PC Left Failure
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Why don't we look at the source of the problem? Schools cannot discipline children, parents can only just apply the tiniest amounts of discipline for fear of running afoul of laws that have become so insane as to be laughable. To expect the police to carry out what is a natural process; the learning of respect and adherence to norms of behaviour is ridiculous; the monsters are created by an insanely liberal society that has somehow lost touch with what is normal and that wishes to pass the blame for this back to the police. The police are of course further limited by the fact that they can hardly even look at a child askance without violating some fictitious "human right" or other.
Simply get real; if a child misbehaves to a degree that justifies it (and swearing at another person justifies it in my book); give them a hiding and get them to understand that behaviour has painful, deterrent-inducing consequences. It is time to stop wringing our hands over the terrible things that are happening in society and to apply discipline. Goodness, just think back to school in the past; I got caned, but I knew that I got caned for doing something wrong; I didn't like it, but that was the idea because I also did not commit the offence again! Simple really:
Behaviour = meaningful consequence = adjusted behaviour
Behaviour = no consequence = no adjustment and probably escalation of behaviour.
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I have an question; who has agitated for and formulated the laws that have made it impossible to apply discipline? Where are these people? I cannot believe that any sane person would have created the laws that have removed the ability of schools, the police, parents and any other person in authority to apply discipline. I would live to know where these laws come from because the average person would not allow themselves to become emasculated pawns in a social meltdown. Did I vote for this? When was I asked about these insane laws? Is this democracy if I have no knowledge of the laws being passed in my name? Hmmmm
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The police aren't solely responsible for controlling anti-social behaviour. We used to have a strong groups of enforcers to cut out this sort of behaviour - they were called parents, anyone remember them?
If people actually care, why don't they form a neighbourhood action group and stop the people behaving anti-socially? Groups of adults should partrol the streets volountarily in a bid to report and cut crime. It's so easy to post a rant on here about how bad the police are, but it's a lot more difficult to actually DO SOMETHING - that's the problem with today's society, nobody gets off their backside any more. How many of the moaners on here would consider being community police officers? Very few. It's volountary, so what's in it for you? - a safer community, that's what.
Put it this way, nothing happens at my end of the street - between me and the other guys in my building, we ensure the protection of property and our elderly neighbours. We've never lifted our hands to anyone, but as soon as any suspicious characters or groups of kids appear, or if there's a noise outside, we go and tackle it head-on. Twitching the curtains nervously is what these people want you to do - you'll get a brick through your window acting like that - but shining a light on them with a torch and shouting is a lot more effective. If it goes further than that, so be it. Being a vigilante is not a good idea, but 'growing a set' and going to tackle these people head-on is a great idea.
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My experience of the police is one of total apathy. When I lived in Chester my car was vandalised on 3 occassions - twice my wing mirrors were kicked off (at a cost of £200 a piece to replace) and once had even the aerial stolen. Police response was to give me a crime reference number on the phone for each incident and then send me a letter to say 'sorry you've been a victim of crime'. Not once did they send anyone out despite widespread vehicle vandalism in our street.
I've sinced moved to a more expensive neighbourhood to put some distance between myself and the proletarian malcontents because the police cannot be bothered to protect the property of hard working tax payers.
I was also shot in the back in London by a pleb with an air rifle about 4 years ago. Although two PCs came promptly and took a statement and were actually very pleasant there was never any follow up at all. I'm not sure I'd bother reporting lesser crime anymore, I know that sweet FA will be done about it.
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its the victims of crime that are the guilty
Its the guilty who are the innocent.
As I said in my previous comment #157 its the lawmakers who are equally responsible for our rising street crime as well as the law breakers judging by the many comments on here.
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Prosecute the parents.
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With a change of attitude. When the problem people know that the law is effectively powerless to do anything (ask one to be quiet, and you'll get the reply "what're you going to do to make me?" along with a long stream of abuse; touch them and you go to jail for assault, or at least be tied up in courts wasting time and money, and find yourself on at least one of the government's many databases, possibly costing your your job, or your next one at CRB check).
Police can't be anywhere, and the touchy feely nature of the law precludes any attempts by people to ensure the vast minority of anti-social people live up to expectations.
Bring sanity and responsibility to the system, and the policing will be effective. Leave us in this unworkable touchy feely 'self rights' based system and policing will be impossible.
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Nice to see that I'm not alone in saying this: Cut the beurocracy and put police on streets and estates where they are visible, then give them real powers and the courts real deterrents.
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Get tough on crime!
Oh yeah, heard that one before the last election.
Small fines, lenient prisons, soft courts, criminal human rights..... yeah it got tough.
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Anti-social problems start with the family and Schools together with the social care system who should be working to offer support to family units and the children. The police are not alone on this but they do need to attend calls and provide support to the people who need it or people will take actions apon themselves which will only increase the problem.
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I've lived in Cambridge all my life and currently in the house we have for the last 5 years, since then I have contacted the police and council alike on many occasions as have some of my neighbours. We live across the road from a pub that sells to underage kids and they congregate on a piece of public land that sits in the middle of a residential area but still they were given a 24 hr license. Part of the prob is that noise by the police isn't considered until 11pm has passed which makes it increasingly hard to bring my daughter up correctly as she is regularly kept awake or woken which then impacts on her ability to learn the next day which in a way is shaping the next generation of people. Kids also become desensitised to it when they witness this behaviour day in day out and thus it becomes the norm. I contacted the Police once and was texted back a couple of hours later which woke me up only to be told they had come to the area and found nothing, well usually after a couple of hours people move on they turn up and it appears if nothing has taken place. My car has been damaged several times and yet if I go out and deal with the issue I become in the wrong or at worst become a target as these kids know absolutely nothing of the word respect yet believe they should be respected at all times, what little egos they have. I personally am fed up to the back teeth of having people outside 30 ft away from my front door all smoking sometimes 30 or so people so you can imagine the noise and mess left for the next day, when summer truly kicks in this will be increased greatly. Often I hear the sound of broken glass, there have also been occasions when my daughter saw a big silver foil envelope in the gutter upon checking further I found it to be a syringe replacement kit. Sentences should be much stronger and there should be no half sentences for good behaviour on the inside what a complete joke our justice system is if you can even call it that. The next time there is a problem I will not be calling the police but will be going out myself as stupid as this may seem but somethings got to change and it will never happen with me standing behind my curtain and apparentally not by calling the police either.
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Speaking from many years experiance in dealing with anti social behaviour as a community I do have to say STOP BLAMEING THE POLICE for you communitys own inaction to the problems in YOUR OWN communitys.
The police are there to act in a role of final say when all other options have failed.
How to tackle anti social behaviour is easy STOP BEING an ANTI SOCIAL COMMUNITY.
Some one else WONT deal with it for you.
How big is your community? bet its a damn site bigger than the few trouble makers your all complaining about and a damn site more intimidating on mass.
But alas thats all to hard for everyone now a days to talk to the neighbours to swap a contact number to organise yourselves to look after the places you live. Its always the police who are to blame for our own inactions.
Full Credit to the POLICE they do a VERY HARD JOB FOR A IDLE PUBLIC.
Thanks to Merseyside Police for another year of outstanding service and duty.
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For all those calling for the re-introduction of the stocks, as some funny form of public humiliation. I think you are getting confused between some fun you had at your school fete, where you threw sponges at your teacher, or perhaps your memory of some film where people are having rotten tomatoes thrown at them, now the truth.
"Since stocks served an outdoor public form of punishment its victims were subjected to the daily and nightly weather. As a consequence it was not uncommon for people kept in stocks over several days to die from heat exhaustion or hypothermia.
The practice of using stocks continues to be cited as an example of torture, cruel and unusual punishment. Insulting, kicking, spitting and in some cases urinating and defecating on its victims could be applied at the free will of any of those present."
That would just be the start of it, I'll leave the rest to your imagination.
This is exactly why they have not been used in this country since 1872, we have moved on and ARE a much more civilized society now.
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Thread drift I know, but I'd be interested to get an idea of what actual police officers think their actual role in our society is. I always was taught that they were there to make the streets safe. Can anyone who's had anything to with them ever honestly say that that's the impression they gave? After 35 years, I can't. SO what are they for then? Government storm troopers?
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Have to aggree with rev 22-1-2 lol wrong account :)
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As an ex Police Officer I can for a certainty say that Labour over the years have hijacked the way Police work so that they are simply mouth pieces for the government.
Long gone are the days when the Police were seen on our streets, seen to be curbing yobbish behaviour, locking up thugs and were symbols of safety and courage who worked for the people of this country, without favour or ill will in a courageous manner, smart and able to intercede without having to wait for long trains of riot vans to back up simple arrests for thuggery. Now we have Police Officers of such diminutive size that they cannot command instant respect when a situation develops. No one dared try it on with a Bobby who was 6ft or over and if they did they certainly knew the consequences.
Constantly changing government targets, budgets and politically correct laws and initiatives with all the associated red tape means that the Police have been taken off the streets, stuck in offices and out of touch with the public.
I despair when I hear that Police Stations (places of safety) built in the 1990’s are closed during the night due to the cells (now called Custody suites) not having en suite toilets so they are closed meaning offenders have to be taken miles away to a central custody suite leaving our street without Police for hours, if at all. My local Police Superintendant made a fanfare announcement in December that over the Christmas period the cells in a £3 million Police Station built in 1993 were to be used to keep Officers (2) on the beat for longer, as they would have had to take the offenders 10 miles to the large Custody Suite for processing. This he said would be wonderful for the community. Well, why not ALL year.
Health and Safety laws that legally prevent officers from acting to stop immediate law breaking and dangerous events, and more red tape and useless PCSO’s with no powers introduced with such fervour by Labour is killing off the Police/public relationships and it does not help that the Chief Constables are no longer Coppers Coppers, but a politically savvy government employees who have little understanding that people want a Police force that is seen to tackle yobs, seen to lock up wrong doers and are not held back by politically correct laws that are really too silly to be on the Statute books. Rather, many CC are more concerned with how they are perceived by our political masters rather than the public.
After 13 years of misrule over the Police the Labour Government are now saying they want to bring in changes, AGAIN. All this will do is meddle and clog up the system and make the public become even more distant from the Police.
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If you want to be successful with tackling ASB, put Local Authorities in charge, not the Police
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The people who make other peoples lives a misery rejoice in being regarded as dangerous(which they sometimes are).
Police officers are human beings and I think they are often physically intimidated.Also,the process of convicting a miscreant is tortuous.No matter how clear the existing law is,there are too many excuses for not applying it and in particular,the human rights of the suspect.
Locking someone up for a short period on an officer's judgement(with no appeal)is the minimum tool.They should also have the right to be armed if they wish.
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Wouldn't it be better to have a discussion on how anti-social behaviour can be prevented in the first place. We know it happens but we actually need to know why. I may not be alone in thinking that there are a lot of people out there who, having suffered social abuse, know exactly why it goes on.
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With something more then an Asbo? maybe a whack with a cane or at worse fine the parents of the said Asbo holder? Mum and Dad will care more about Jimmy's behaviour is Jimmy is charging them cash.
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We could start by calling it what it is crime. Anti-social behaviour (ASB) is a euphemism for we can't deal with it so we trivialise it. Let’s get a few things straight, it isn’t anti social to burn a bin, that’s arson. It isn’t ASB to threaten or verbally abuse someone, that’s threatening behaviour/harassment. It isn’t ASB to throw a stone through a window, that’s criminal damage. ASB is not saying hello to your neighbour, I can live without that, I can’t live without a life free from criminal trespass.
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It would help if people were less afraid to confront those who are being anti-social and feel they will get the necessary police backup.
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We need Police on the street with an urgency to actually do something there and then not wait for the problem esculate. Police seem to have lost there way in recent years they don't appear to take this problem seriousley.
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RE-SPEEDING.
The reason they spend so much time on pursuing motorists is not because of safety, or concern for Joe Public. Its because
a) It raises revenue
b) Its dead easy, sit in a car, no detection work required.
They need to spend more time on the beat and less time on their backsides.
Speed does not kill, Bad driving kills just look to Germany and their liberal speed limits.
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This kind of poor policing response to people's legitimate complaints not only helps to damage communities but it also lowers support for the police among those communities. Victims will just start taking the law into their own hands, and this is understandable if the law won't protect them. I wonder however if the problem is not a wider one, of the police simply not being able to deal with more than a small number of the crimes reported to them, while pretending otherwise. I know of a number of incidents that have been reported to the police but nothing done, including one where a perpetrator was surprised in the commission of a theft and a description and van licence plate number reported, but no further action. If the police can't cope they need to say so and get more funding, not massage the crime figures.
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So the police are not coming down hard enough eh?
They came down pretty hard when people were protesting about all their money being pinched outside RBS?
I used to think it was harsh to label the police as morons but now not so sure...the stealth right wing is upon us...
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As a police officer I have every sympathy with people experiencing anti-social behaviour. I see it every time I'm out on patrol and it's not pleasant. However, I would make two points. First, I have never been on duty and failed to respond or heard of any other officer failing to respond to a call to an anti-social behaviour incident. It may be that the controllers don't pass on calls (they have the final say on whether to send officers to a reported incident), but please remember that individual patrol officers can only attend incidents to which they are sent or which they observe personally. Claims that police officers don't take such calls seriously are untrue and insulting to officers, most of whom are hard-working and conscientious. Second, always remember that the police are not personally responsible for anti-social behaviour (or any other crime). Sometimes it seems it's easier to blame the police than the criminals.
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It has been established for some years that the police have become side-tracked by paperwork, and that generally only the more serious of crimes get any attention.
However, it is unrealistic to lay all responsibility for anti-social behaviour at the door of the police, who at best can only provide a punitive response.
Social cohesion and harmony have been kept in balance over the years by the work of many agencies, e.g. the Probation Service, SSD, EWS, Youth workers, and many other agencies who have worked in the area of early intervention with the aim of preventing things getting worse. Most of these agencies have become short-staffed and required by the Gov to prioritise their work towards only taking on the more serious cases.
There is a price to pay for such a "high-end focus" by these agencies, i.e. an increase in youth crime and disruptive behaviour that goes unchecked.
There is no point in scape-goating the police for this. Bearing in mind the cuts that are looming: "things can only get worse" - which should be NL's new slogan!
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We I am amazed to say have police patrolling our local area. However they patrol it at 2pm when all the kids are in school and most people are at work and subsequently its a complete and utter waste of time.
Its not all the kids fault though, in our area theres now no community centre, theres "no ballgames" signs on every patch of grass you can find, theres no park, they've closed the council run floodlit tennis courts, they built houses on the old rugby club pitch i used to play footy on. All thats left is a semi decent skateboard ramp which is packed out every night.
Parents and their kids are crying out for things to do, hence the 2 year waiting list for things like the scouts.
Dont just blame the police, blame the councils for removing every last vestige of low cost or free entertainment we had growing up.
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As so many contributors have said, the answer is to increase police presence and take the problem seriously. For most people anti-social behaviour is a more severe problem than outright criminal behaviour, although it should be remembered that much anti-social behaviour is also criminal. In this (urban) area it is entirely normal for a week or more to pass with no sight of any police presence, whether officer or vehicle. Concession after concession has been made, with the result that people are led to assume they have an inalienable right to do just as they please and that they have no moral or social responsibilities whatsoever. A change of culture is required which will not be achieved without effort on the part of the government, the police and the justice system. Their current standpoint causes only feelings of dismay. The problems are known and solutions are not hard to find, but countless lives contine to be blighted because nobody can be bothered. Unfortunately, that's not about to change, election or no election.
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There seems as usual for HYS to be a lot of cliches on this posting.
Put anti-social youths in the army; the army does not want to babysit a bunch of lazy good-for-nothings.
Bring back corporal punishment; I was born in 1949, the yesr 'Brighton Rock' was published. If then a policemen had give a young boy a 'good clip around the ear' the young thug would have taken he ear off with a razor.
Its all the fault of modern parents, well remember this record from the early 1960's by Joe Brown?
Fathers down the dog track, Mothers playing bingo,
Sister Susie's in the palour, you should hear the springs go,
No one seems to notice me, isn't it a sin, what a crazy world we'er living in.
With nothing to do, no money, hopes or dreams, is it any wonder our kids do not care about the consequences of what they get up to.
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A major part of the problem is our legal system, which is self-serving, replete with uneccessary delays, and hamstrung by ridiculous legal standards that favour criminals over the society it is supposed to serve! The theory is that it protects the innocent, but of course it doesn't even do that! It is very good at making money for itself, and this gravy-train is of course supported by rich, powerful and influential people who wax fat on its complexity.
One example from yesterday is that offenders have around 16 previous convictions and still serve less than one year in jail. That's awful for society, as this person has had the opportunity to commit 15 more crimes than he should have had. But from our legal profession's point of view, it's 16 trips to court, 16 sets of fees, and 16 times the admin and paperwork. It simply isn't in the interests of these powerful people to fix our society. They don't, on the whole, live anywhere near where the trouble is, so they don't have to suffer for their follies. It's obvious, from reading these comments by an intelligent section of our society, that good enforcement, swift punishment, and a legal system responsive to the needs of the society that pays for it, is the way to go. Many 'serious' criminals don't start out that way -they are often just youths that have no respect for the impotent, wheezing law. They become serious criminals when they realise that it has no teeth even when it does catch them. Many people living with the intimidation and bullying know very well who is committing the crime in their areas (as do the police), but our legal system forces them to stand up, declare who they are and where they live, and present a massive amount of evidence over a long period of time, with little help from an overworked police force. If they manage this mammoth task, with initmidation and threats from their tormentors all the way, very often the resultant sentence is derisory, leaving the bullies and their cohorts to wreak revenge.
For this sort of crime, why can't we fast-track prosecution, perhaps using the testimonies of trusted community members and (maybe) the police as evidence?
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The situation here in Scotland is no different than that in England & Wales. Where we live in Glasgow we are within a 20 minute drive of any of 4 local police stations.
The media & the local Housing Associations take great pride in providing the local telephone numbers for each of these stations, along with the advice to "contact your LOCAL station at any time should you need to report a crime".
What they do not make public is the fact that all calls to local stations are diverted to the biggest police station/holding facility/police call centre in the south-side of Glasgow.
In addition, what is not made public is the fact that all calls are logged on a giant screen and tabulated. Only when around seven separate calls have been made about the same incident do the supervising officers decide to allocate a car to attend the location.
No wonder the public are mystified when it could be up to an hour or more before they see a police presence.
All of this information came from a currently serving officer with Strathclyde Police.
I have no doubt that the same system is in force throughout England and Wales, and Northern Ireland too, of course.
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I know it has been said before, but I'll say it again. Inane political Correctness and positive discrimination with regard to recruitment, have emasculinated the police force.
I remember as a kid in London in the 60's being in awe and ever so slightly afraid of the local Bobby.
Nowdays, kid's couldn't care less about themselves, authority and other people; particularly if their victims are vulnerable.
in light
supajohnny.
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Bring back Corporal and Capital punishment.
If you confront these thugs you are then accused and convicted of assault and causing an affray, if you survive.
I reported someone for trying to break into a garage to the police as it was happening.
The police said they would get an officer there when one was available.
After 5 mins and the burgler had entered the garage, another call was made informing the police there was now no hurry, as the burgler had been killed.
The police arrived inside 2 minutes. (No officer available ?)
The caller was then arrested and fined for wasting police time.
Who was the criminal ? The Burglar or the victim ?
What chance has the law abiding Brit Cit got today?
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Mustafa Beer I think
Speeding Motorist are proper criminals, we cannot pick and choose the laws we wish to follow and discard the ones we don't. Perhaps if speeding motorist stopped speeding then the police can put the resources back on the streets?
Is it not interesting as we as a society see car crime as somehow not real?
The above is a comment the government loves. Speeding is wrong but on a scale of "wrong" I would suggest murder, assault, theft are higher in the scheme of things. The reason why you have police focusing on speeding or non road tax payment over many more important crimes is that catching speeding or non-tax paying motorists generates revenue for a desperate government, which if it was a business would most likely have the bailiffs knocking on their door.
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1) Clearly define a citizens rights in dealing with anti-social behaviour
2) Reduce police bureaucracy to get more police on the streets
3) Offenders to be punished on a rising scale relative to number of offences e.g. no caution for a second offence, part-time detention as a step i.e. detained in special centres overnight or at weekends etc
4) Visible security presence - I live in a reasonable area and we don't get much trouble but seeing a CSO once a year on the main road during daylight and NEVER seeing a policeman, other than in a traffic car or attending a break-in, in the past 5 years or either during the hours of darkness does not fill me with much confidence.
5) Make police chiefs, judges, magistrates live in problem areas for a least one month so they can appreciate the misery such behaviour causes.
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We live in the Avon and Somerset Police area, we are always calling the Police for action against young people in and around our area being loud kicking doors, knocking car mirrors off and drinking and taking drugs, they stand right underneath the CCTV mast and are not worried by that or the Police, the Police attend and say that there is no crime being committed, so what is anti social behaviour, the local Police only recognise it if they have the time to enforce it, on Friday nights they are too busy in Weston with clubbers fighting and cannot commit enough resource to the smaller towns, the area Police commander responded by sending an extra community person the following week, but this had no effect, the youth of today have no respect and no fear from the authorities or residents.
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Hasn't crime and antisocial behaviour been falling dramatically for thirteen years? Or has someone been fiddling the figures? Still, if Labour say they will reduce crime and antisocial behaviour we should believe them shouldn't we? It's not as if they lie constantly is it?
We use to send bad people to harsh, austere and disciplinarian prisons and there was much less crime. But the new trendy methods work much better don't they?
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Perhaps the police could start from the "presumption" that the offenders do not have a justification for their actions via the myriad excuses normally offered. For example, "anger management issues", a "dysfunctional family", "got in the wrong crowd", etc. These might be the "reasons" but they are not an "excuse".
I am waiting for the first anti-social behaviour offender to claim that their actions were either "cultural" or "religious" and hence that they are, in their minds, above the law that applies to everyone else.
The phrase, "the offender and their family were known to social services" is now being trotted out so regularly that it has become discredited. People might have more confidence if the police stated, "The offender and their family were known to the police, so we looked there first".
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I’m amazed at some people’s comments regarding Anti-Social behaviour being solely rested on the shoulders of those "Damn Kids."
Because adults don’t commit anti social offenses?
I’m getting sick and tired of dated, ageist comments from "adults" who think they know better.
Comments like "kids don’t respect police" and "they think they own the streets." Your wrinkled fingers couldn’t be further away from the pulse.
Get a grip and stop this Victorian nostalgia about the good old days when children were seen and not heard. that never happened, its never going to happen and its certainly not going to win any respect with those binge drinking, thieving precocious little scamps.
I don’t think the majority of young people in this country find it acceptable to be a nuisance either, but I bet none of you bothered to ask.
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I've little faith that anything can be done now. Seems a little late when whole families appear to be "at it". Discipline and boundary issues should be firstly handled at the parental level - my parents would've been mortified if the first news of my bad behaviour was relayed by a teacher or (as happened once) a police officer, and the consequences of their hearing bad news second hand were far worse than if it'd come from me.
Sadly, reports these days seem to involve parents defending the "rights" of their children after such "adventures" as burning cars, burglary and assault. I wonder if Britain is broken beyond repair?
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In my local area cardboard cutout police men and women are being displayed as a deterent to criminals - says it all really - you couldn't make it up. Unfortunately, the criminals are not made of cardboard so it's a bit one-sided really! There's an idea here for a computer game - SPOT THE REAL POLICEMAN.
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I do feel sorry for the serving men and women in the police force. It must be very fustrating unable to do their job properly due to 'human rights' (for the criminal that is) paperwork and red tape, the threat to their own and their families well-being and lack of resources when tackling anti-social behaviour.
Someone else commented that we should stand up to those being anti-social more and look to the police for backup. Sure, if you can cope with the consequences - being beaten up, stabbed, threatened, having your windows smashed etc. Look at the poor woman (in Leeds I think) that asked some youths to be quiet at the cinema - she was followed and had bleach thrown in her face! We feel forced to put up with it because we have no choice. Even with increased police presence they can't be on the street 24/7.
Something more needs to be done beyond the police. Fining the parents doesn't help - they don't pay the fine and they don't care. No amount of social working can reduce the youths in gangs causing trouble. Someone else mentioned bring back national service and I really think that's the solution to teach discipline and respect (since the parents won't do it and the teachers aren't allowed to do it) but it will never happen so we will just have to get used to living in fear.
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suzie 127
"If you want more police you will have to pay more tax. Life is simple. People in this day and age want everything. They don't want a nanny state unless it is in their favour."
We already pay a lot of tax, and the police are still useless.
"If you want the police to deal with so called anti-social behaviour you have to give them the tools and the authority to do so, instead of berating them everytime you think they have been too harsh."
You might have a point there - but the police seem to have plenty of powers, they just choose to use them against the essentially law abiding.
I know that if I got into an altercation with youths involved in vandalism or other anti-social behviour, the police would be more likely to take action against me than against them.
If I was a police officer, one thing I'd be really worried about is the attitude of the law-abiding, tax-paying public. Those attitudes are at best apathetic, and in general downright hostile.
That means there is precious little sympathy for the police. If you're in trouble, either through your jobs being cut, or you're being attacked, don't expect support or sympathy. Remember how much use you were to us when we needed you.
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necrothesp wrote:
"It may be that the controllers don't pass on calls (they have the final say on whether to send officers to a reported incident), but please remember that individual patrol officers can only attend incidents to which they are sent or which they observe personally".
Do the police maintain a database of such reported incidents where a decision was made not to respond - with reasons for this decision? If so, I can envisage numerous Freedom of Information requests coming their way.
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I think the onus is really on parent's and society, we are failing young people and creating the anti social neighbourhoods. Parents commuting hours each day to earn enough to keep up with the latest trends, the pubic realm being dominated by car users, people afraid to speak to each other on the streets etc etc I recently lived in Ireland where people talk to each other in the street, it's incredible the difference there is here, I say hello to people walking along the canal and they look away ....bizzarre ! OK Ireland has it's problems too, yet the sense of community in towns and villages prevails, ....they don't have ASBOs there.
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149. At 10:17am on 11 Mar 2010, Chris Miles wrote:
"Anyone convicted of anti-social behaviour should be made to do national service and sent to the army, ASBO's are a joke, some sterner punishments are required!! The army will teach them discipline and respect, and also give them employment at the same time.See how many of them carry on their behaviour when one of their mates is in Afghanistan for behaving the same way!!"
Wow, just what decent troops being shot at and bombed in Afghanistan need - to have to be nursmaids/ warders for feckless yobs, to make life a bit better for the civvies back home.
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3 cars vandalised and a push bike stolen in the space of 24 hours and not 1 police officer came to the area to either make themself seen or to take statments. All done over the phone. Funnily enough 2 days later another car vandalised.
Not even a PCSO was seen. Shocking
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last november a drunken person took the pole from a notice outside the salvation army citadel facing my house, and threw it through my dining room window in the early hours of saturday morning. i did not phone the police as this kind of thing had happened before, they never came, so all i had to do was call in the police station and get a police number for the insurance and to make sure the offence was noted in local crime figures.
the salvation army rang the police and put a lot of pressure on them and officers came the following afternoon and took the post that had been thrown. they found fingerprints on it, great. they found the offender, rang me and said he would be appearing in court.
two weeks later i got a telphone call from the police saying the offender was due in court, that he was a soldier on leave from afghanistan and was under stress from his war experiences and that a conviction would be very detrimental to his army record.
i was lost for words. it had cost me £150 for the repair. i said i am also living in a war situation. every weekend in the early hours drunken people carouse down the lane shouting, swearing, pushing each other, fighting, kicking cans, pulling down fences, breaking windows etc, etc. we do not live on a council housing estate but a mainly owner occupied area.
i said if he comes round and gives me a personal apology and pays for the damage i would be willing to drop the complaint. the police officer put the phone down.
what a missed opportunity for building goodwill and confidence with a member of the law abiding public. i was made to feel that i was guilty.
hanvic65
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Scrap all this ASBO rubbish, allow the police to actually police crime and not petty problems and give householders the rights to defend themselves.
These thugs need a GOOD KICKING and perhaps a stint in a prison that is actually a prison & not a training ground for the school of thieves it is these days.
National service wouldn't help as most of them couldn't hack it.
All prison terms should be a minimum of 18 months and at least 2/3 of it should be in a cat b prison. Cat C & D should be earned, not given as a right to those who have not been caught doing wrong inside.
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All the people posting demands for more officers on the street and for all offenders to be shipped off to jail are presumably the same people who won't mutter a word of complaint when their council and income taxes go up to pay for it.
I don't blame the Police who have a thankless task - I blame the politicians who insist that everything is better if they set arbitrary numeric targets for everything from arrest rates to clear-up rates regardless of the real issues or local concerns that may exist. If you set someone a target that will be costly to miss then people will find the easiest way to hit that target regardless of the impact on the real world. It's the same in the NHS, it's the same in schools, it's the same in councils etc etc. All responsibility for making real decisions has been removed from the experts and given to faceless bureaucrats making decisions based on kneejerk reactions by third-rate politicians.
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Some ideas from the vedic texts. 4 steps "Sama, dhana, bheda and then danda" There are four ways of teaching/preaching. First you speak nicely and explain your point, and then you make an offer of something to make things better, then you make a "bheda", explain the difference of opinion between the groups (social and antisocial). If none of those work, you use the stick, "danda". I would recommend 1 and 4.
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I have recently seen a car burnt out adjacent to a Police Station and not one Officer did a thing to prevent it. Their reply when asked why not was that they are responsible for quick reaction and this didn't come under their area of responsibility and suggested that a call be made to a Station 2 miles away. As for Police in the community, where are they when the kids are constantly smashing the bus shelters etc.
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With actual police on the street.
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Anti-social behaviour should be policed by, well, a visible police presence! When was the last time you saw a proper genuine bobby on the beat? Yes, we get the community support officers who roam the streets in gangs of four but aren't taken seriously by anyone because they've got next to no actual powers to do anything, but they're more of a joke than a deterrent.
If we are to seriously stop people behaving in an anti-social fashion then we need visible policing, effective punishments rather than a stern word and a slap on the wrist, and we need to start instilling discipline in children so that they learn what's right and what's wrong. Taking discipline out of the classroom was one of the biggest mistakes ever made.
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Time they locked them up. That'd solve it.
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Have come back to this for several reasons to ACCUSE the Government, The Home Office, Ministry of Justice and all MPs of neglect of basic human rights of terrorised neighborhoods and individuals:
Internet-searched 'anti-social behaviour' for France and Germany, which is an unknown term for them.
This search simply provided UK civil service site or random international sites about UK being top of the league for such bad behaviour due to alcohol related lack of inhibition? Fair enough.
HOWEVER, we must ABOLISH the term anti-social behaviour in UK of all crimes of bullying, malicious behaviour, torment, arson, hate crime against any UK citizen whether they are able-bodied; the disabled or the elderly NOW!!!!
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Why should they? It's far more profitable to stand on a street with a speed gun, than visit some chav estate where they will get nothing but abuse and no support from the CPS or the courts if they take action.
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152. At 10:20am on 11 Mar 2010, shillingfan wrote:
"I would like to know what proportion of time the police spend chasing motorists compared with actually policing the streets because we never see them. Last week I reprted anti social behaviour by some youths. I am still wainting for the police."
I would suggest you wait and see how quickly they turn up if you are ever injured by a speeding or drunk motorist, before making a final choice of where you would prefer them to prioritise their resources.
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There are lots of comments on here about the lack of visible policing, unfortunately even if the police are present there is little they can do. They might have grounds to arrest a child, but he'll be free again in hours and with little or no punative measures taken. We need to get away from locking people up, we can't fine these children as they have no money, I would suggest community service as a punishment for all anti social behaviour violations, its cheap, helpful and not likely to push the offenders into the realms of full criminality.
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Over stretched police-persons sweating over countless forms have little time to react to social unrest. This is what we are told.
This is going to explode in their faces if the public take the law into their own hands. I know exactly why someone who defends their own home and loved ones is frequently arrested - it is so that the rest of us law abiding inviduals don't get the same idea.
However, if the police really can't manage to police our communiities they must stand up and say so and perhaps make the way for an alternative force employed just to keep the streets safe.
The young today feel that they are above the law having been brought up in this 'you can't touch me' system. They rely on their age to avoid punishment that would reflect their crime.
This culture of 'I know my rights' they learn at their parents knee and the schools and police are left impotent.
As I see it they have to learn that they lose any rights once they become an offender - however trivial their crime
.
As for social unrest between adults, be they drunk or otherwise, the courts should recognise how disruptive their behaviour is to the rest of us and sentence accordingly.
Our community belongs to us all and it should not be relinquished to the few that would make our lives a misery.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
With this type of news being reported more and more at the moment, I'm surprised people haven't yet resorted to vigilantism. Decent people are being done over not just by criminals but also by the government these days. What ever happened to the days when we would stand up for our rights, like during the poll-tax riots? Why are we now so spineless when it comes to social justice?
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The simplest solution is ALWAYS the most straightforward and easy to achieve!
Provide our children with real education! Teach your children how to use their minds! Teach children the sum of knowledge of humanity - instead of the de-education process currently employed!
It really is not rocket science is it - A child's mind is a sponge - pore poison in and what do you expect to be the consequence?
Give the children KNOWLEDGE, and TEACH them how to use their rational volition!
Its the ONLY solution!
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Young police officers suffer the same arrogant attitude as those that commit the anti social behaviour. Having recently dealt with the police the arrogance of the 2 _officers_, both of which in their early twenties, was unbelievable. I felt insulted to the point that if my children had spoken to me like that they would have been in deep DEEP trouble!
It seems police training is more about the power they have than being a balanced and intuitive person!
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They just aren't interested because 1. It doesn't give them revenue like motoring offences do & 2. They'll just get abuse cos they have no powers to do anything and it'll mean hours of paperwork.
Recently had a gang of youths laying the waste bins in the road where I live preventing traffic and potentially dangerous. The police were called at 7:30 and they said they'd send someone. An hour later it was still going on only they were now laying branches etc. Called the local police number and couldn't even get an answer. At 10:30 they drove past in a patrol car????
If i'd have gone out and confronted them, these boys would call the police, scream assault and i'd get arrested all within a matter of minutes.. that's the fact of the matter.
If it's funding, then next time they attend anti-social behaviour just send the police bill to the parents!!!
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While I don't agree with the short comings of the Police in recent years I'd like to ask why does this question of solving anti social behaviour keep coming back to the Police? It's the parents we should be focusing on! I dare the government to do a study into the amount of families on benefit that have anti social children, do you think they might find a relationship?
If they fail to be parents then remove their benefits and government support! These people don't care about ASBO's or petty threats from the council so obviously they need to find an alternative method of dealing with them.
We SHOULD NOT be dragging minors into court for harmless offences like riding a bike on a pavement it will just lead to a totalitarian state where more decent people are convicted because the police aren’t allowed to use commonsense.
I would also like to see more support from councils and the police given to the local communities who try to solve these problems independently.
E.G. don't arrest someone for kidnapping because they physically took someone to the police station for being violent!
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More Police out on the streets and therefore a visible presence, particularly in those areas where there are the most problems.
Zero tolerance policing.
Bringing back National Service - would teach discipline and respect.
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Anti social behaviour and 'low level crime' may seem to be a distraction when there are many more serious criminal activities to be dealt with. However, these are the foundation on which criminal behaviour is based. If they were taken more seriously then, in time, there would be a dividend in fewer finding they can 'get away with it' and going on to every more serious activities until they are a serious problem.
When people get the impression that the police are 'just not interested' then there is no disincentive for them to behave in this way and, what is more important, no clear line for them not to cross.
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I don't know where a lot of people on this thread were brought up, obviously not in the country, where anti-social behaviour is a part of our culture. I am 53, but I cannot remember any time when there were not gangs of thugs out to make trouble; Mods, Rockers, Hell's Angels, Football Supporters, Militants of all types (Feminists, Animal Rights, Left-wing, Right-wing).
The main reason why children don't have any respect for the Police, is because their parents don't, and probably nor do their grand-parents. The fault lies with the people of this country, not the schools, politicians, police, or any one else. We are responsible for the country we have created.
The trouble with most people in this country is that they don't take responsibility for their own actions, and they want to blame someone else.
I live in Bristol, and I do know the name of my local Police Liaison officer, and have phoned him more than once, and have had good response. He regularly writes in the local free newspaper, to provide updates about what the Police are doing locally. I also see the Police on the beat in the area as well.
Maybe more people should take the time to liaise with their local Police, instead of just complaining about them, and also to give a good example to their children and grand-children, by having more respect themselves.
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You want the Police to leave the comfort of their Pandas where they can sit out of harm's way and ignore all but easy targets like the motorist?
This is novel thinking indeed. Must be an election due soon.
I thought they only responded to threats against Muslims, homosexuals or any other minority. Any complaints about positive discrimination against the British white man are seen as racist. Absolutely disgraceful! No wonder respect for the Police has all but disappeared.
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It's not more policing, better record keeping or more powers to deal with anti social behaviour that are needed. It’s the reintroduction of corporal punishment that would do the job. You only need to look at the IOM as an example, not too long ago it was one of the most crime free places in the British Isles but since the corporal punishment has been banned it is as riddled with anti social behaviour as any where else
Bring back the Birch!!
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Here is an idea! Go to the prisons and take out all the TVs, pool tables, gyms and play stations. Then fill them up with CCTV cameras and microphones and write above every doorway ‘it’s your own fault you’re in here’. Get the prisoners up at 6am 365 days a year and march them round the exercise yard for two hours then feed them and make them spend the rest of the day cleaning the prison. Anyone picked up on the cameras and microphones boasting about crimes, claiming to be innocent or planning new crimes should be harshly punished. The idea behind this is not to be cruel but to show them they can have a good life outside if they obey the laws of our society or a horrible one inside if they don’t. Crime will plummet!
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I work in public services and if you didn't have targets and monitoring you could actually do the job you were paid to do and get rid of all the people brought in to fill in forms for the government this saving a fortune. With that money you could have more frontline staff. You may think we need monitoring but all it's telling us now is that things are working well enough.
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"How should police tackle anti-social behaviour? "
Roaming death squads...? Just a thought..
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In our towns we have some anti-social behavior and some crimes. Generally most people who believe its anti-social behaviour are often mistaken and the police here treat it as a crime.
Look at the list on this article, vandalism, violence these are crimes. Therefore those committing them are criminals. Stop pansying around and treat them as such.
Plus in order to catch and deter them use PCSOs and Police Officers to patrol the streets. It works here and although the PCSOs are often not considered "real" police, they do have eyes, ears and a hot line to the real cops (including our armed response unit if they're being really naughty).
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Wow, so many experts on here expounding the causes of ASB and the solutions! They must all have studied the subject to Masters degree level by the sounds of things. My solution would be to sack all the police and employ all these arm-chair experts instead. They'd soon take this country back to the middle ages and we could all spend our lives cowering in fear of arbitrary 'justice'. Why should we let something like the Age of Enlightenment hinder our regression? What did those philosophers know anyway?! The Daily Mail is so much more accessible.
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Since Labour have politicised our police services (http://www.acpo.police.uk/) we have seen less accountability and a deterioration in our services. Crime, specifically street crime is spiralling out of control. I have lived in New Cross Gate for 2 years, I have yet to see a policeman other than those who fly by at 70 mph in a police car.
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Further to what I posted at message 214
The media have much to answer for (including the BBC) by constantly 'playing' the public by use of "the blame game".
Playing the "blame game" means that issues are reported in a grossly over simplified form, and that the spotlight is directed at certain individuals: the Police, Social Workers, Teachers, Parents, etc, etc.
The truth being that when systems fail there will always be individuals around to use as scape-goats, and this draws attention away from understaffing, less than adequate training, and the cuts that have taken place in the past ten years in relation to preventative work done by various agencies.
The media have done untold damage to the child protection system in this country by way of dramatising the issues and underreporting the true underlying facts in a few high profile cases.
Most of what we see on TV is cheap and nasty macho management of the problems - it seems the public love to see youngsters being chased by several police cars and a helicopter, which ends in the young offender being dragged from the car and thrown over the bonnet while being handcuffed. Such issues can be handled far more skilfully without the drama of an American cop flick, but then do the public want to see a less dramatised version?
In most cases, "documentary TV programs" on law and order are just dramatised version of reality spun up to entertain the hang-em and flog-em brigade, and to bring some false sense of security to those people who are angry or frightened by crime.
The media need to stop dramatising and spinning, and start reporting the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, i.e. present all relevant facts and figures.
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How can we stop A.S.B.Os on the street when the adults often the parents are the same as the kids.Many adult have double standars they see others doing things and think it bad but if its their own children or themselves then they where led on or it was a one off.Nine times out of ten oh we where celebrating a birthday /wedding ect: or we had bad news and went off on one.Also the defination of A.S.B.O. NEEDS TO BE CLARIFIED AS IT SEEMS LIKE EVERYBODY HAS GOT A DIFFERANT DEFINATION INCLUDING THE POLICE.When we sort that out then perhaps there might be a better chance for it to work.What worked when I was a kid would not work nowadays.
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#198 Revelation2212 suggested greater action by 'the community' to tackle the problem. This sounds a little too simplistic - you will make yourself the target, or if you have organised yourselves in a like minded group you run the risk of being branded 'have a go heroes' at best, or more likely 'vigilantes'.
Revelation2212 finished by saying: "Full Credit to the POLICE they do a VERY HARD JOB FOR A IDLE PUBLIC. Thanks to Merseyside Police for another year of outstanding service and duty."
Not sure what sort of time-warp he lives in, the Police on the whole have become politicised. They are sadly revenue collectors too much of the time, and invisible much of the rest of it.
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There have never been enough Poice Officers to meet the demand of anti-social behaviour.
Simply recruit more Police, and charge it to all Council Tax payers. Its about time the public faced up to some realities and their own accountability with these issues. It costs money, and it must come from somewhere.
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1. It would appear that far too large a slice of police resources are used on traffic management for financial collection of motorists money
2. Zero tolerance of anti-social behaviour by the police - there is noting wrong with taking control of this public nuisance
3. Merge 1 and 2 together to get crime down and avoid pointless persecution of motorists
It is time for the law to clamp down and not be so "fussy" about upsetting the rights of individuals. If there is a problem deal with it!! (please)
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Two points:
1. I live in a block of flats and my neighbours smoke drugs, leave rubbish everywhere, have violent arguments and play loud music - so much so the local council have placed an abatement order on them.
On four seperate occasions last summer, the Police were called - no by me I hasten to add - because there was a very loud, and very violent argument going on between the couple in the flat. Sure enough, on each occasion the police turned up, each time with four officers. On one of the subsequent occasions I opened my door so that I could hear what was being said. Even though it was totally obvious to everyone that the fella had been beating up the girl (given the fact she'd nearly been thrown off the balcony and was in floods of tears), all the Police did was the seperate the couple. What followed me shocked me to the core - all the Police then did was speak very politely to the culprit of the violence, telling him to "go away for half an hour and calm down", with one officer sympathising with him saying "I know what women are like".
Other complaints to the police about litter and noise have been ignored.
Anti Social behaviour is bad because there is no punishment - like dozens of others have said - make the punishment severe and teach those who dont respect the law a lesson.
2. The Police should spend their time chasing criminals, not motorists and many others have said. Me and both my parents have between us had 4 speeding fines in the last 12 months - how fast were we going? No faster than 33, 34, 34, and 35 miles an hour - all on dual carriageways.
The man hours and expense that must have gone in to prosecuting "criminals" like me and my parents makes me really sick when I consider what my neighbours are allowed to get away with.
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#17. At 07:30am on 11 Mar 2010, Ross Logie wrote:
The problem of anti-social behaviour is symptomatic of the problems in society generally. The country is rudderless, fractured, ill at ease and run by a politburo that has deliberately engineered the disasters that are overwhelming society.
Whilst I agree that anti-social behaviour is symtomatic of the problems in society, it is not a new thing. You go back in history and you will see that this sort of behaviour has been going on for decades if not centuries.
Some 15 years ago, some of the youths in my area were equally as bad as they are now. In fact one of them beat up my son where he had to go through several painful operations to put his jaw right. My son would not tell us or the Police who beat him up because he was afraid that the Police would let the perpetrator off with a caution which would then enable him to come back and give my son another beating for telling on him!
Again 30+ years ago there wasn't a single telephone box within a 2 mile radius of where I live that was in any form of working order due to being vandalised. About that time I had washing stolen off of my washing line and it took the Police a week to send someone round to investigate.
The only way that the police can tackle anti-social behaviour, is to actually act on it immediately a crime is reported, not ignore it or leave it until a week later.
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The solution is already in place and is working perfectly well. Ghettoising the criminal classes into council estates where they can't affect those who make "important" decisions has worked! Anti-social behaviour doesn't occur in the countryside or in the classy areas of London.
Move along please, nothing to see here.
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A lone mother committing suicide with a disabled child after years of attacks, abuse etc. Where was this mother's MP?
Arson attacks on sheltered housing, murder of a father challenging youths attacking his wife's car. There are pages we should all be reminded of since GB introduced 'anti-social behaviour' non-stats?
None of what I've posted today is good enough or strong enough on this Government's disgusting and inhumane introduction of 'anti-social behaviour' non-legislation - furthermore it's pointless and impotent when the police have also lost faith in law and protection of you, me or your mum and dad?
I never thought I would feel such anger and disgust since the polarised difference Thatcher used to order police to beat up miners?
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The 1st offence 2 years. The 2nd offence 4 years. The 3rd 9 years. The 4th 16 years. ... It will work better.
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Regarding this comment
"Zero tolerance, 24 hour magistrate’s courts, and very harsh sentences for all anti social behaviour. IE commit anti social behaviour, get arrested at once and taken straight to the police station from there they appear before a magistrate within 2 hours and are sentenced with the punishment being imposed at once, the first thing the parents would know is when they were informed that little Johnny was caught throwing stones through windows’ and they can pick him up in 4 weeks time from the youth correction camp.
Little Johnny then appears back in front of the magistrate before being released to be told that next time he appears before them the sentence will be 6 months, the rest of his moronic mates in his little gang will not be so keen to do it either when they see what’s happened to their hero.
Very harsh? Yes but we in this country are sick to death of these little morons ruining everyone else’s life, just follow the above rules and watch the problem disappear.
The Victorians had it right, Children should be seen and not heard and don’t spare the rod, we have tried that it does not work."
Bravo, I 100% agree with this, we are far to liberal and the pendulum HAS to swing back before we all fall into the pit.
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We need more police on the streets and fewer in an office doing paperwork. A heavier police presence will go some way towards reassuring the locals and deterring yobs. As it is, I think the police are doing the best they can, given the resources they've got. They just can't win.
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"Police are more interested in issuing speeding fines to motorists than catching real criminals. Kids don't respect police like older generations did. Our society has changed for the worst....."
So speeding isn't dangerous? I think my children are at greater risk from people like you than a few teenagers doing what teenagers have always done, fool about.
Every single post on here sounds like a Daily Mail editorial. Give young people a chance, they are not all out to get you or cause trouble.
If people like you had your way there would never have been an Elvis, Beatles etc. Society would look very different.
Then again, just to be on the safe side perhaps I should flog my 14 year old daughter (who has just gained a Maths GCSE Grade A* at 14) because she is bound to be trouble, she's young isn't she? My 9 year old son, oh dear he is showing signs of having a personality, lets beat it out of him or have the police constantly on his back. That'll put the little hooligan right.
Satisfied now?
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I feel sure that what some would call antisocial behaviour by youths eventually leads to increasingly unacceptable anti-social behaviour to the point where the level of respect for the police and society in general disappears completely; leaving a plethora of individuals who think its acceptable to take part in much more serious crimes.
So the seed of low level anti-scocial behaviour needs to be crushed before the inevitable escalation to full on crime
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By taking the job and the public seriously would be a start, But its not only the police its most authorities, I've had to move house due to A drug addict loser being moved in below me, that was prostituting her self, selling heroine and keeping us up all night with rubbish dance music, spent 18 months going through the "proper channels" to no avail, got treated like I should have more simpathy for one of lifes losers, not when it affects my livelyhood (which ultimately is how these people have roofs over their heads) Shambolic country!
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It's all very well saying put more police on the street but at the end of the day, the Police have their hands tied because there is no deterrant!
The Police can haul in as many of these feral oiks as humanly possible but what happens when the Police have done their bit?
We need tougher sentencing, hard labour, zero tolerance!
That would make these little hooligans think twice!
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At 11:58am on 11 Mar 2010, B Anderson wrote:
Hasn't crime and antisocial behaviour been falling dramatically for thirteen years? Or has someone been fiddling the figures?
________________
What? Our law abiding and honest government?
Yeah!........on absolutely *everything*
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I have been a victim of anti social behaviour for years now one family is constantly having loud garden parties. They are middle aged doctors see not just the kids is it.
Why should kids respect the police they don't turn up to any crimes aren't there to defend you from any gang that may attack you, if someone does attack you they'll automatically treat both of you as criminals and arrest both you and the attacker before trying to sort it out. Also they quite literally get away with murder and break whatever laws inconvenience them (that's the police not the kids).
You elders that the young people should respect have just wrecked the economy invaded Iraq and Afghanistan and created a big brother nanny state. See not so nice when you're on the receiving end of unfair generalisations now is it.
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Scrap the PCSO scheme, they are useless round our way.
THey don't want to get involved and frequently pass by anti-social behaviour looking the other way :-(
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I don't get what the point of a police force is anymore. They are not accountable to us who pay their wages, they don't protect the public, they in fact often abuse the public. Why pay for a police force that does nothing useful? The public purse would be healthier and we would be no worse off by dismantling the whole force.
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I have been the victim of crime in the form of burglary and car theft. The police were not interested in these beyond assigning a crime number and telling me to take that to my insurers.
So no wonder that we now have a category of 'anti social behaviour' under which things that were formerly crimes are now lodged and promptly ignored. It's just an extension of the culture of doing nothing, making it slightly easier to do so because 'it's not actually a crime'
The police are now only interested in targets such as clearance rates and fleecing the motorist.
The only time I have seen the police use their powers is to issue me with a speeding fine (45 in a 40, no other cars on the road, good weather).
So surprise, surprise I have no confidence in the police whatsoever - to the extent that the last time my car was broken into I simply paid a mechanic friend to replace the window and forgot about it.
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I have very little faith in the police. They need to get out of their cars and actually talk to people. A short walk from my home there is a lake which has, on occasion, had problems with anti social behaviour and so it was made illegal to drink in that area and the police promised to patrol the area to inforce this. However rather than actually walk around the *foot*path they insist on driving over the grass from the nearest road to get there (leaving deep tyre trails in the grass) and then driving round the footpath. It's not an emergency (they don't use sirens). So they are either too lazy to walk or they are too afraid of actually having to talk to a member of the public so prefer to hide in their cars.
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I am sure I don't need to remind people why anti social behaviour is so topical or that the Police response can at times seem less than perfect.
Unfortunately we seem to live in an age where everyone has rights but no responsibilities. This is due in part to our very fine education system that at the very least seeks to encourage the child to question authority but fails it seems in some cases to instil the responsibilities that go with citizenship and partly due to the fact that the chattering classes who all have self discipline fail, to understand that those shall we say less fortunate need to have discipline installed and at an early age.
When the above taken with a desire not to effectively punish transgressors we are left with near anarchy.
However lest you think I paint too bleak a picture. The number of people actually engaged in criminal activity, beyond mere high spirits, is really quite small. These could easily be managed with an effective detention system thus allowing those who behave in a responsible fashion to enjoy their lives with out let or hindrance ... just as the much defamed Human Rights Act states.
It is the failure of the State to adequately protect the individual from the anti social behaviours of these few that needs to be addressed.
A more robust interpretation of the HR Act is required. Early intervention in youth offending, a promotion of youth groups Cubs, Brownies, Scouts and Guides along with the various Cadet associations and many others, would be a good start. It is time to forget diversity and multiculturism as these will both benefit from the exposure to well behaved and well mannered individuals that the those groups exist to promote in any case.
The Police are the last or should be the last line of defence not the first port of call as that indicates a complete break down of social values in all parties.
Time for the Government to step back and allow the communities to thrive with out intervention to encourage the building of strong socially cohesive groups that are not prey to the latest newthink, newspeak.
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Parents to become Parents. It is there responsability to look after there family no one else's. When taking to Court make tham pay the fine and compensation if they refuse take it out of there pay packet or Income Support also make parents responsable for there kids fines and compensation, also again take it out of pay packet or Job Seekers Allowance. No need then for Fines Warrants and more police available for the street instead of been stuck in the Fines office pushing paper. Really it is simple if people stopped passing the buck.
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Hanvic wrote regarding people kicking cans and shouting:
we do not live on a council housing estate but a mainly owner occupied area.
That's shocking, I mean you would expect that of the poverty stricken wouldn't you, but good upstanding mortgage payers, surely not?
Perhaps Hanvic ASBOS should be issued to all of those under a certain income level? Any suggestions as to the level that defines a decent person? £50,000 p.a. perhaps? 4 bedroom semi on quiet road in Surrey?
Death to the poor!
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Generally the police seem too busy running down pedestrians in a rush to knock off for them to be concerned with actually serving a purpose.
New York's zero-tolerance on ASB resulted in a massive reduction in all types of crime, but a force that requires a test proven to be easier than a single GCSE cannot be expected to implement effective measures.
They'd rather a bit of heavy-handed thuggery to thwart democratic protests and the single-minded pursuit of middle class offenders more likely to confess to having pushed a burgular they've found in their own home, as opposed to the burgular who's denying everything and might require some police work to convict.
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"If I posted my solution it would probably not be printed here.
Basically a lot of the scum that perpetuate these crimes are a waste of human skin. They should be dealt with in the only way that would make them understand, that their behavior is unacceptable to society."
David, this sounds familiar. Is this from a certain Mr Hitler's speech at Nuremberg?
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dont believe the spin from this government you will get no help from anybody if you are unlucky to get the neighbours from hell it is getting worse as this government knocks down social housing and put them up in nice houses in nice areas we have it in edinburgh run by a company called orchard and shipman they break all the rules and are making a fortune.my father aged 76 and dissabled has suffered hell with neighbours supplied by this company.he has now had to move and i believe the other good neighbours are selling up also. i have a meeting today at the scottish parlament with msps where i will let them know the facts dont suffer running to police and your council they will waste your time go direct to your mp and give them hell
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The government simply does not want to change anything, its obvious. In my area I will see 10 traffic wardens for every 1 police officer I see on the streets. Why not get rid of all traffic wardens and get the police to do the parking tickets. They will be a visible presence on the street and spread around the area so can respond to emergencies quickly. But no, our government has given us more revenue-generating traffic wardens than ever before and more CSOs who are cheaper than police officers. This country does not have the finances for effective and proper policing and we all have to accept this.
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K A Owen
Lancashire was the only force to get rated Excellent for it's Local Policing. What's different about it? It makes good use of it's PCSOs. Seriously. They're everywhere, they're active, they're involved - communities know them (at least, in Lancaster they do!) and they make a positive difference. PCSOs are a good idea, but they're only as useful as the effort the force puts behind them.
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#102 Skipsurfer
#26 Ron
There is a common attitude in this country that crimes commited by generally "decent" people (i.e. hard-working non-chavs) somehow aren't crimes. They may well be lesser crimes but that misses the point.
If we want to stop anti-social behaviour we must all stop all our bad behaviour. While decent people are disrespecting society's rules, you can only expect plebs to do the same.
Ron's observation about cars speeding is just one example. You could also parking fines - they may be unjust on occassion but rules are rules. Or people fined for littering "because there were no bins". Or middle- and upper-class tax avoidance, which some people manage to contort into a virtue (while you'll quite rightly never hear anyone stick up for benefits cheats). It's a long list.
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Four blokes are due in court today over theft charges.
What's the betting they will get let off with a caution and a token gesture?
Perhaps this is another reason society no longer cares when the criminals get away with it.
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RickAtatastan wrote:
Anti-social behaviour doesn't occur in the countryside or in the classy areas of London.
--
You have *been* to some areas of Rural Cumbria, right...? And Rural Lancashire? Believe me, Anti-Social behaviour does exist in those areas. It just doesn't get reported in case those nice high house prices drop...
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The only way to effectively combat anti-social behaviour (ASB) is by the Police and the community working together. As a Police officer myself, the regular call regarding anti-social behaviour progresses thus:
'I've seen a group of youths damaging a fence. There's about 6 of them all wearing hoodies about 15 years old...'
To this I would respond ASAP, on a grade 1, to get to the area in good time. Predictably, the youths aren't going to wait by the fence, they'll have moved on. I will, normally, find A group of youths in hoodies somewhere within a half mile radius and stop them. So far, so good. I then ask for the informant to be called back to see if they can identify which one caused the damage to which 9 out of 10 times I hear 'the informant doesn't want to be identified or get invovled'. I may even get colleagues to see if the informant will sit in a Police car and drive past to see if we've got the right people, often this is also refused. My colleagues will knock on houses either side of the damaged fence to see if anyone saw anything which is again often negative so what can I do? Record their details and let them go. There is genuinely nothing I'd like more than for someone to say 'Yes, that's them, and the one in the blue is the one who caused the damage. Of course I'll give you a statement'. All the ensuing process and paperwork will gladly be done knowing that at last I'm getting to grips with the local yobs who cause the community so much misery but this is the exception to the rule.
Also, when I do have the opporunity to speak with people they often say how bad the 'youth problem' is, but when I ask if they've reported any incidents to us, they say 'No, well nothing would get done anyway'. I can appreciate how this view is arrived at, but with 7 officers to cover 50 sq.miles, if no-one tells us what's happening where, how can we be in the right place to prevent it? We have analysts who look at the volume of calls to different areas and our priorities are set from that. If you feel your area needs more Police focus, ring up about all the things you see that you want us to deal with. The community are our eyes and ears and drive our daily activities.
So if anyone reads this who is feeling aggreived by ASB or witnesses it I would urge you to:
Call the Police and provide as accurate a description as you can of the offenders and their actions. Write it down at the time, it can be good evidence.
Assist them with their response - participate in a street ID of the offenders, give a statement and stand up in court.
That will empower the Police to use their full range of powers and protect the community more effectively, it's not 'us and them' as in Police versus Community, it's Police and Community versus Yobs. ASB is not a difficult problem to solve. After all, the perpetrators are often a few teenage kids with a poor education, if the thousands of people in the community and the empowered Constables who work within it can't get a grip of them, I'll eat my big cork hat!
A PC
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It's almost instinctive to believe that punishment is the answer in these situations and that anything else is soft liberal thinking.
But the society we live in is just far too complex for such a basic approach. We no longer use carrot and stick in managing people at work, most of us try not to when raising small children so why should it work in changing the behaviour of those intent on causing so much trouble.
Our policing needs to be more enabling, show some genuine concern (difficult I know) and encourage people to change through realistic policing. Add to that some honesty, integrity, some inspiration and support and we might start to see some change. The clamour for punishment hasn't worked to date. Maybe it's time to try something different?
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I had to call the police last week because there were youths in my garden, and despite telling them to clear off, all I got was a torrent of abuse. I dialled 999 and explained the situation and asked for assistance. I got ticked off for using the emergency number, until I stood my ground, I said that as a council tax payer, I decide what is an emergency to me, the jobsworth backed off. when the officer attended, despite the fact that I had apprehended the youths myself, (I was a British Soldier for 15 years. I have a MC and two MIDs), the officer said there was nothing he could do as it was a civil matter, and there were no witnesses. I then got another lecture about dialling 999 for non-emergencies, told that I should be careful about taking the law into my own hands as the force I had used was borderline assault, and that I would get a letter from "Victim Support" in due course. There can be little wonder that confidence in the police is being eroded, they, and the PC lunacy of our justice system are letting us all down.
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It's all very well saying put more police on the street but at the end of the day, the Police have their hands tied because there is no deterrant!
The Police can haul in as many of these feral oiks as humanly possible but what happens when the Police have done their bit?
We need tougher sentencing, hard labour, zero tolerance!
That would make these little hooligans think twice!
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How about doing 180 degree turn and returning to police houseing, which would be in the community, of course where it is most needed. Not on posh estates probably the easyest and cheapest way to get a police presents where its needed and basicly for 24 hrs a day. The Police officers could be offered some imagnative insentive's to take up the scheme I understand it works well were put into practice in the states.
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When I was a child, I and other neighbourhood children got up to a little bit of mischief, but never on the scale of kids today. I put this down to three things:
1) Our parents taught us how to behave properly - this is a missing element in the upbringing of some children today.
2) Other adults in the community were seen as being well within their rights to chastise us if they caught us doing something naughty - this knowledge probably kept a lot of us from doing bad things to begin with. Nowadays, people who admonish other people's children are viewed as a mere annoyance by most kids, and often also by their parents, who all too readily accuse complainers of interfering.
3) We didn't dare talk back to adults, let alone verbally abuse them or threaten them. Because some young people today have missed out on both parental and society-level discipline, they have become unpredictable in their reactions to others.
So now, not only are people concerned about how their actions towards youth anti-social behaviour is perceived by other adults, they can even be frightened of the consequences to their own safety and standing within the community. Because of this, they then feel they have to go to the police or local council for action, instead of doing things the old-fashioned way and knocking on the neighbour's door to speak to them politely and rationally about their children's behaviour.
Until people feel like they can once again solve some of these neighbourhood problems without resorting to involving the authorities - a tactic that requires community cohesion and mutual respect - I'm afraid we will never really be able to properly tackle the growing problem of anti-social behaviour among our youth.
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You will not stop this anti social problem without a cure "The birch" And other types of control.Weve come so far down the "lefty liberal road" that its going to be hard to return to a civilised country that has manners and respect for law and order...Draconian laws worked. but the PCs way dosnt, the british abuse total freedom.just look at how uncontrolled weve become in the last forty years.
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Coppers are too busy filling in forms and harassing motorists to fill their coffers than getting stuck in with real crims who might fight back. Thanks to this abysmal government, the ne'erdowells all know their rights and who should pay for them.
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Policing anti-social behaviour such as persistent noisy neighbours, unattended barking dogs, bonfires in gardens etc. which are the bane of urban life, now seems to have been dropped into the laps of the local councils. Great you might think, take the pressure off the police to take care of "real" crime. Only to discover that your local authority only has funds to respond to these issues during the "summer", and will do nothing if the problem is before midnight! We need 24/7 response to antisocial behavior from what ever body it supposed to tackle it.
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I live near a spot that's popular for underage drinkers.
The area is frequently vandalised.
I made a report once, when there were youths drinking in the area. They remained there for over an hour and could have been easily intercepted.
The police response was to turn up the next day, and take a written report. The main question being "Can you identify these youths?". Because I obviously couldn't, they said "We'll pass a patrol car through every so often, but other than that there isn't any more that can be done."
My point being, had they intercepted them, their identities wouldn't have been in question. The source of their booze would be revealed and action made to prevent their access to it.
It is as if the whole system has been designed to fail.
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it seems to me that the police are intimidated by these yobs, why not flip it round and give them a taste of their own medicine!
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Tackling anti-social behaviour does not bring in revenue and does not win the block vote from minority groups, and as such it will always be given a lower priority than speeding drivers, litter-bugs, and dealing with accusations of racism.
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The social fabric of Britain has been torn to shreds, so-called 'old fashioned' values have been cast aside by feral youths and a huge underclass of scum. The Police do not have the resources, the 'do-gooder' courts only add to the problm by letting these scum back on the streets to re-offend with apparent impunity.
Britain is broken and Labour has overseen the decline of moral and public standards aided and abetted by the Human Rights Act that protects the criminal and disadvantages the poor victim.
At some point, hopefully soon, Britain will return to the values of respect and honesty. It can't come soon enough.
The Police need greater resources and Court sentance support.
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This is a classic example of why our political system continually fails to address real issues in this country as the police will say they are under resourced and the Home Secretary will say they have all the necessary resources and they are just mismanaging those resources. This happened to Steven Green the Chief Constable of Nottinghamshire when there was a dramatic increase in gun crime in the Nottingham.
Now who do you believe an experienced police office with 30years of experience or an Amateur Home secretary who is voted into parliament as an MP and because their face fits gets the job? Sadly all too often the politicians win and the Chief Constable is hung out to dry as the newspapers and public turn their backs on him.
Everyone knows that the police are under resourced and much of their time spent filling in paperwork, compiling politically motivated league tables and publishing politically motivated newspapers telling everyone how well they are tackling crime etc but often fail to turn out for a complaint.
So, maybe if the Home Secretary was actually responsible and his salary and pension were dependent upon the effectiveness of our police service instead of simply setting policies and budget then we would achieve more in this country.
However, having said all that first define anti-social behaviour. To many it is yobs on street corners but it everywhere such as inconsiderate parking, failing to clean up dog mess, discarding broken umbrellas at bus stops during strong winds or discarding rubbish out of car windows etc.
The public also have a role to play in all this by living within the law themselves and that includes those most emotive of subjects such as speeding, driving whilst on a mobile phone, parking etc.
We can’t pick and choose the laws we wish to have enforced simply because they protects us and our property while flagrantly ignoring other laws that absorb police and often other emergency services resources.
If we want to improve society then we must do it together and that includes being responsible citizens and respecting the law and others. Treat others how you would like to be treated and many of our social ills will go away.
Unfortunately, we now live in an age where people are not really interested in anything until it affects them personally.
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Tell the police you have been burgled and they will tell you your complaint has been noted,but they are too busy to respond straight away
Tell the police you have just shot somebody and there will be an immediate response
so what were they doing before the last call?
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Here's a radical idea. The police should treat anti-social behaviour as a crime, because that's eactly what it usually is ... harrasing people, using threatening behaviour, damaging property.
Next, they should be honest about their failings. The Acp presidnet, Sir Hugh Ord, witters on about engaging with partners to improve the situation. Twaddle. Do your job, the job we pay you for. Tackle crime. Sure, if partnership working produces benefit, then I'm all in favour, but for now the police simply doing their job will be a huge improvement.
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An awful lot of criticism is being leveled at the police on this issue, but there are other agencies who are not pulling their weight in dealing with the issue of anti social behaviour. The police are legally obligated to deal with the stuff reported to them, when there is a multi agency approach to a problem there is a communication problem & you find yourself having to report to several different agencies who don't talk to each other & nothing is done to actually alleviate the problem. Some agencies also avoid dealing with problem people because they use the excuse they're too scared for their safety. In my experience the police take their role very seriously but do not receive the backing of the courts to keep anti social behaviour off of our streets.
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The best thing the police can do is turn a blind eye to citizens taking the law into their own hands.
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The majority of people want to see the restoration of traditional policing with Bobbies on the streets taking a higher profile in the maintenance of order. PCSOs, "Blunkett's Bobbies" or "plastic policemen" will not do simply because they are not police officers. To get back to the traditional system we need to roll back 13 years of New Labour which has seen the appointment of like-minded Chief Officers - the Metropolitan Police in London is a case in point - who have initiated a range of innovative initiatives leading to quotas and tick boxes demonstrating increased efficiency but, in reality, turning street-wise officers into clerks. A generation of that style of non-leadership has led to a police force stuffed with officers who are "hot house bred" and addicted to sitting in front of computer screens filling in Home Office forms and manipulating figures to ensure that a range of artificial quotas have been fulfilled. A cynical view ? You bet it is but it is also true and accurately represents what has increasingly been the situation over recent years. A root and branch clear out of middle and senior ranks brought up in this false style of policing is desperately needed but I fear it will take at least another generation to put matters right and re-introduce a policing system which once again has at its heart the philosophy of protecting the public.
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Well where do you start? Remove PCSO's. Remove the current culture of meeting targets, for the statisticians.
Get Police Officers back on the street, in tunic's and out of their 'Combat' clothing. Teach the Police that they are to serve the public, not that the public are there to be persecuted. Give the Police lessons in communication skills and get rid of the arrogant attitude of some officers, that is to see on the street and these fly on the wall documentaries.
Stop persecuting photographers going about their legal activities.
It is time the Police got back to the basics and then maybe the public will respect the Police and assist them, rather than the current practices that are alienating the public.
The good old jolly beat bobby has long gone and so has the once proud reputation of the British Police. The Police have a big PR hurdle to overcome, before we can expect things to improve.
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Firstly, political correctness must be squashed.
At the moment, if a police officer gives a yob a clip round the ear the officer is automatically charged with assault. Bl**dy ridiculous!
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There seem to be many people who believe harsher punishments could reduce crime/ASB. Good. it is a start. But why just (e.g.) tougher prison regimes? Why not flogging? It is cheap (I don't want to pay to house and feed criminals) and, I believe, could be made to work; if 50 lashes do not reduce crime, up it to 100. The only people who would get it would be those who took their chances. Why should we care abouit such people? All those who were deterred would benefit because they would not have criminal records (which can make many things difficult) and would not spend many years in gaol. We seem to have a strange idea that flogging is barabaric and so wrong. Surely it is worse to sit on our fat butts and allow muggings, theft, rape, property damage, massive resource waste that means we have less to spend on education, health, pensions etc. By failing to act to deter we implicitly condone crime. It is time we freed ourselves from the (probably Christian) baloney of blaming society and turning the other cheek. Let us just stamp on wrongdoers and stamp very hard. I remember well the words of Corporal Jones (Dad's Army) "They don't like it up 'em". Let us threaten to "stick it up 'em".
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There should be very harsh punishments for these anti-social people as an illustration to others. Start making examples of them. The reason there is a culture of this anti-social behaviour is that there are no deterrents.
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#5
"The Victorians had it right, Children should be seen and not heard and don’t spare the rod, we have tried that it does not work."
*Sigh* Yes, of course the Victorians 'had it right' - obviously there was no crime at all back then, everyone was well-behaved and honest and things have gone downhill ever since.
What rubbish. When will Brits wake up and realise that things are better than anyone could have imagined a hundred years ago, in almost every way? And while we're on the subject, things are better here than in most other countries, and maybe we should stop moaning about 'broken Britain' and appreciate how lucky we are...?
Oh I forgot, most HYSers are incapable of being positive about anything.
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A perception is that the police don't bother responding as they daren't, can't or won't touch the perpetrators anyway. Apart from [possibly] saying 'go away' they seem powerless or reluctant to act. It seems so may people just don't bother calling the Police.
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I don't understand why the police have problems tackling genuine anti-social behaviour, since they've had little trouble lately using Section 44 of anti-terror legislation to harrass innocent photographers.
Indeed there recently was a case in Lancashire in which of their Constables claimed an amateur photographer was taking photos in an anti-social manner, whatever that was supposed to mean.
You see the police waste no time making things up when they really do want someone's details, but whenever something criminal or anti-social actually happens they're nowhere to be seen.
Unless their activities involve any revenue collection, then I'm afraid the police just don't want to know.
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You can only tackle anti-social behaviour in children and young adults by being tough on them. They commit anti-social behaviour because they have no respect for others and because they think that nobody can do anything about it. ASBO's dont really work because they are seen as a badge of honour. Their families need to realise that they need their kids need to be responsible citizens. The parents need to be fined hard and have their benefits cut. If their kids can't act decently, why should the state pay for them? The offenders need to be made to do menial jobs in the community like picking up litter and clearing up dog mess. There is no badge on honour in that!
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The police have a major task on their hands, to restore a dwindling confidence in their effectiveness, as perceived by the public. Instances, such as booking a car driver for blowing his nose while stopped in stationary traffic, and the handbrake on, are completely counter-productive to restoring confidence. One is left with the impression that individual police officers do not give a hoot about maintaining law and order, or in increasing the confidence of decent members of the public.
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Parents need to socialise their children and take responsibility for their behaviour. Adults in the community need to take responsibility to oversee children's behaviour in their community. Schools need to educate children in their social & community responsibilities, local authorities need to be involved in local community actionm projects. The Police are there to provide the final piece in the jigsaw. Too many comments on here seem to expect the Police to do everything while taking no responsibility for their part in their communities.
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For a start, can I have a clear definition of what activities are deemed to be "anti-social behaviour"?
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As the tragic story of Mr Askew illustrates, now is the time to come down like a ton of bricks on the perpetrators of anti-social behaviour and abuse. It is scandalous that the 'human rights' of these yobs are being considered as equal to their victims. By their actions, such yobs should have their 'human rights' taken away - that would be justice. But, in the UK today, we have masses of laws and regulation but no justice and common sense. We have surrendered to the lawyers and the 'PC' brigades and life in many areas of the country is miserable. The political classes have much to answer for, especially the silver spoon socialists.
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Common sense : if kids can get away with something they will. Teachers need to know they have our backing.Corporal punishment (obviously applied sensibly and within strict guidelines)is a deterrent to the vast majority of children.
Zero tolerance of abusive drunken yobs is also common sense.
We do need proper police but guess what- as Foxhead pointed out at 269 it's going cost tax payers' money and that doesn't seem to go down well with some sections of society.Oh and don't try peddling the old more efficient use of resources routine - real police cost real money!
Oh yes - 17# & 25# .Politicians do get in the way a bit don't they? - but neither of the main parties has can claim high moral ground on this. Will people stop whingeing about BBC bias. It will sometimes report news that politicians don't like - I remember the fuss that Alistair Campbell made about the BBC's reporting on "sexed up dossiers" - the BBC and our police force are a match for any in the world - leave them alone!
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I am a South African and we do not have any YOB'S running around the place, if our youth tired to give out the very bad attitude that the British youth do they would be put in their place very fast.
There is a thing called DISIPLINE from day one and so we dont have this problem. The other thing the British majority dont teach their children is RESPECT and MANNERS. These three things cost nothing but still the British dont 'GET IT' so it is all down to the parents, why is it that they dont know how to raise their children the correct way?
There are many black tribes in Africa who have never been educated in a classroom, have very little or no contact with our world and guess what??? They can manage to raise their children the right way, with RESPECT and MANNERS, so please tell me why it is so difficult for the supposidly educated first world British family such a big problem.
It has nothing to do with being wealthy, or having money, the tribes that I mentioned in Africa dont have any of this, but what they do have is their PRIDE and SELF RESPECT.
This government must become alot harder when dealing with these people or else they will learn nothing, if they are not sure on how to go about this then I suggest that they send the best that they have in thier police force to South Africa and see how we deal with any problems that we have which at the moment are WHITE HATE murders.
Innocent people have rights, YOB'S dont, step outside of your little box and see the big picture, it is not as hard as you think.
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I live in a rural small town. Police presence was removed some years ago and attempts by tourist policing had no real effect because of lack of local knowledge and resoures. After prolonged pressure involving our MP, targetted action was taken against local troublemakers, and the situation greatly improved. PCSOs were involved and have done a good job.
The problem is that if we are deserted by the county force again the problems will recur.
It is hard to understand why police are so scarce. There are large numbers of them- an officer for every few hundred people, not counting PCSOs and back office staff. Our community pays for by direct and indirect taxation,around a dozen officers at a full recovery cost of say £65/70k a year. We don't have one.
Where are they all?
I think our police officers are superb. They are not responsible for the antisocial behaviour, but they are responsible for their effectiveness in maintaining order.
To treat them like plumbers that come out only to pick up the pieces is to miss the essential of maintaining good order by engaging with the community.
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I can only reiterate what nearly everybody else here says. Back to older values, police on the beat and not chasing motorists, and zero tolerance for offenders with very heavy sentences for repeat offences. But this namby pamby governnment would never listen - let's hope the next one does!
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anti-social behaviour is what 5 year olds get up to in the school playground!
And this is the essence of the problem. Frightening a man to death for instance, by throwing stones at him, is at the least manslaughter, damaging his property is aggravated violence. We need proper sentences, where human rights belong to the victim, not the perpetrator.
Kids carry knives and use them because they know they will get a light sentence and life is considerably more 'cushy' for them inside, what with the socialists crying out for their supposed human rights!
If someone (irrespective of their age) threatens me, shouting abuse, that is not anti-social behaviour, that is incitement to a violent response and nowadays, we are increasingly being provoked into taking the law into our own hands, so that the law can be administered properly and accurately!
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I don’t think the police work hard and politely for citizens. And it must be same phenomenon in worldwide.
It may be waste of time discussing this problem.
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Anti-social behaviour is a common phenomenon in a capitalist society.This behaviour is inhreted from family.Todays youth are not the ones to blame for todays promlems.The source of the problem is somewhere else.No adequat income for the family,no job opportunity.When they see this, they can't see any future.Tomorrow has nothing to offer them.Hence you see their behaviour changing.Social structure needs to be amended.
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Those that call for more police on the streets will probably turn around and say we are living in a police state. More CCTV, oh no can't do that as it infringes on the privacy of those being anti-social, take the DNA of those being anti-social, can't do that either. Lets just deport people who violate there ASBOs
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I think it should be easier to get people thrown out of council housing-it would at least sort out some of the problems on the estates.
I lived above a bunch of drunken, drug addicts for years. Only one was the legal tenant, the rest were long term "visitors". The noise at all hours was a nightmare. The men there threw boiling water over the cat who belonged to the woman downstairs. She never complained after that.
I did keep complaining but got nowhere as it was my word against theirs quite a bit of the time. I was very afraid for my own safety and eventually had a complete mental breakdown. The council still would not move me, or evict them. The had noise abatement orders, but it made little difference. The police were involved but there was not much done.
Lucky for me I found a flat exchange and moved. It was the only way out of that hell. I wish the council
could chuck out bad tenants like private landlords can!
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Anti-social behaviour, where gangs of young kids, some as young as ten or under, seek out and terrorise individual householders for months on end, is sadly commonplace in Glasgow. Eggs, bricks, bottles are often used as missiles to target their victims windows and vandalism to their property or cars then follows. These mini-thigs indulge in this mob bullying because they know their is no punishment for their evil behaviour but there certainly will be if the victim reacts or retaliates when taken to breaking point. Broken Britain, indeed !
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How should anti-social behaviour be policed?
By the law of the land,which at the moment appears to be useless.
Im sure Iam not alone in thinking that children and criminals here in the UK have too many rights,IMO all persistent offenders whatever their age should be removed from our society and given harsh reallity of the crimes they are commiting.
In case we have all forgotten it is not the children who should be in charge.
Parents must stop feral children roaming the streets and the police should by law enforce rigidly a curfew that removes all children without a ward or guardian from our streets between the hours of 8.30pm-7.00am,this act alone would ensure many hours peace for many of the victims of child/youth harassment.
The government now needs to rebuild approved schools,remand homes and borstals for the detention of all persitent offenders above the age threshold which should be 9 yoa.
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Crimes involving robbery or offenses against property have always been a priority driven by current and endless UK Governments before, and even since our UK police force was originally formed?
Offenses against the person? Well, until the constitution of UK and/or police changes .. we are on our own?
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The area where my parents live in Tameside has suffered from extreme anti social behaviour for going on 30 years (including drugs, vandalism, alcohol). The corner shop near to where they live continually sells alcohol to underage kids and the police are aware of this but do nothing. The only way to tackle anti-social behaviour is to get the proper police (not the Community Police who seem to think they have to be everyone's friends - they are useless and powerless) back on the beat, regularly like they used to, and get them out of their comfortable cars. We need to go back to knowing who our local beat police are, and them knowing who we are. The fact that the local police station has been shut down and is all boarded up speaks volumes!
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Three boys (11 or 12yrs?) appeared two doors down from me, produced empty wine bottles and hid, waiting for a car to pass on our (main) road. I couldn't let this happen, far too dangerous. Impossible to 'overlook' their antics as usual. Clenching my teeth, I went out, and told them to push off or I would call the police. I did anyway, and the kids moved on, the police saying they would drive around the area having a look out for them. These boys no longer hang around here, which is great. But they know my address and I don't know theirs. It's not a good feeling. At all.
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abolish ASBO's, they have become little more than a "badge of honour" to many disruptive children. Instead fine the parents, harshly, so that they get the message that it is up to THEM to deal with their children.
At the same time we need to look at the environment the child is being raised in. Where a child is considered "at risk" we need to be quicker to respond to get them into foster care or away from that home environment BEFORE it causes long term behavioural issues.
We also need to look seriously at whether the issues are psycological or not, children who need treatment should be made to undergo it, even if it means admitting them to secure hospitals to receive it. This includes receiving mood stabalisers and proper councelling, not this "tea and sympathy" stuff that currently goes on in schools.
What ever happened to Borstals? Criminal behaviour in children was dealt with by removing them from society? to my mind if a 10 year old is capable of murder or rape they should be in an institution same as an adult would be. It is ridiculous age should shield them from their offence.
and finally, where it is clear their behaviour would improve by removing a person (or persons) from their life, then you need to do just that. If there is a malign ringleader or manipulative older person involved charge them with child abuse and get them off the streets. Because corrupting a child to be a thief or arsonist or drugs user, to my mind is as much abuse as grooming them for sex.
A child should be allowed to be A CHILD for as long as possible, those who go out of their way to stop that should be charged.
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In the same way as a school would 'police' its playground. By having someone on duty, walking around and observing all the time. The presence of authority is a deterrent. If policemen were seen walking the streets there would be fewer crimes. But why am I bothering to say this? It's been said by so many people so many times before, but nothing has happened. There will probably be a great deal of talk about it before the general election and that will be all.
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It's not just the Police who are failing in dealing anti social behaviour, but our justice system too. It's in our local paper this week that the guy who killed one of my friends outside a pub in a cocaine and beer fueled rage has had his sentence cut from 6 years to 2 years, the same group of people who have been responsible for other attacks and one that left a young lad in a coma.
My own experiance was once several years when we had problem neighbours, we had an injunction taken out on them by their housing association and when we tried to have it enforced by the police we were told ( and i'll never forget this ), it wasn't worth the paper it was written on. Since then and now I have no faith whatsoever that the police or justice system can adequately protect the individual. All of it is not fit for purpose.
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325# The parents need to be fined hard and have their benefits cut. If their kids can't act decently, why should the state pay for them?
Mmm....that's a very open mind you seem to be keeping there.
Hooray Henrys and Henriettas have been known to misbehave as well you know - despite the huge advantages they have in life!
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When are the law abiding citizens of this country going to realise that the police, legal profession, probation services, social services and any other organisation who deal with the perpetrators of anti/unsocial behaviour do NOT want any thing changed as this would endanger THEIR jobs - the more out of control children which leads to out of control adults, means more SECURITY for their jobs and their colleagues. I know this sounds harsh but an old saying does have truth - Spare the rod and spoil the child - this adage appears in the Bible (Proverbs 13:24). I don't expect this to be published as 'the truth hurts'
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Not to many years ago while living in the Quinton area of Birmingham myself and family (has then was) were confronted by a gang of youths who took a dislike to us. We became the objects of their savage attentions resulting in our house being attacked, windows smashed, threats made etc. A situation many today are aware of. Yet when we complained like many commenting today. Not only were we ignored, but on one occation accused of making up none exsisting events. Is it any wonder that people are reluctant to complain
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Ron wrote:
"Speeding Motorist are proper criminals, we cannot pick and choose the laws we wish to follow and discard the ones we don't. Perhaps if speeding motorist stopped speeding then the police can put the resources back on the streets?"
Get real Ron!! If I drive at 31mph in a 30mph limit who has been hurt? Who has been injured? Who is out of pocket?
If I drive at 31mph and have an accident then that is dangerous driving but the police don't do anything about this. They are too busy sitting in their warm offices and warm cars relying on questionable technology to do the job for them.
Get the police walking their beats! As an aside, can I assume that police no longer get a boot allowance but now get a seat-of-the-pants allowance?
When the police start looking at crimes where there are victims and do something about those crimes then society will be a better place!
Police the anti-social offenders and make the courts have them birched and the problem will swiftly go away.
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I called the police over some anti social behaviour - teenagers living at the end of my garden pelting MY windows and doors with oranges tangerines and other fruit.
The police turned up - not sure if it was the real police or the pretend ones and they said "How can they be throwing fruit? There are no fruit trees in their garden!!!?"
If they employ stupid people like that - no wonder there is so much Anti social behaviour going on?!
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Simple. Instead of retiring police officers at 55, they should work on the admin and leave the other officers to patrol the streets.
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no more PCSO, no more cut backs in police by bring in more civilains. You must remember that on the phone, at the police station they are all civilians. They had no interest in polciing because they dont go out on the beat, they dont answer calls, so they will often (and i was one) laugh at your problem and either not record it or under record. Also dispite Police bosses telling the public, they are more expensive because they are civilains, so they have right unlike police officers. They strike, get good pay and they cant betold what to do. I have often watched them be asked to work over because we have a busy night or a major incident, they just laugh or you pay them double and aday back for leave!!!
Let me and my fellow officers out of cuffs so we can get tough on criminals. We know that courts are to weak to do anything. A few more DCI Hunts would help???
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Several years ago my daughter watched two teenagers smashing their way into a neighbours car in the street outside. She immediately phoned the police - the response was "they will probably be gone by the time we get there". They sure were, the police never even bothered to turn up either then or later.
In another incident my grandson's bike was stolen. She was told by a police officer not to bother as it was unlikely to turn up. (Presumably a lot of paperwork involved if it was formally reported). But this was an own goal. The bike, extremely distinctive, was recovered a few days later. That could have gone down as a solved crime.
And one other - I had all my hubcaps stolen one night outside my house. I reported it. A few days later I had a letter to say the case was closed. Surely a case should only be closed when it is solved?
Do you wonder that we have so little faith in the police with respect to petty crime?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
A much greater police not PCSO presence on the streets and stiffer sentences for these vile low-life. Also punish their parents if they are under 16.
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just an inevitable consequence of lack of values due to over population ratio to jobs due to machines doing the work, with the anarchy this society seems to like to live in with every one scrambling to make as much money as possible every one pitted against each other, may be one parent should stay at home and bring up their child change the view from monetary values to human this means reducing profit ideas then we can live in a more balanced society and people would not drink or take drugs as a way of escapism when their shallow dreams are not realized and start taking it out on others!
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Cut red tape. Stop police chasing pointless targets. Get rid of the useless Police Community Support Officer Role and let the police - police.
Simples.
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"It's far more profitable to stand on a street with a speed gun"
This attitude is really, really irritating. The only people who do this are the traffic police, a small minority of the police force (you can recognise them by their white hats) who are specifically tasked to do it (the clue being in their name!). Most of the rest of us have never even touched a speed gun. Sadly this comment shows the level of ignorance about the police that permeates the populace and these discussions.
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I and my family have suffered nearly 12 yrs of anti social behaviour. These have consisted of verbal abuse,theft,vandalisim,eggs thrown at my windows etc. I have been in contact with the police on numerous occasions. They have stated it is my fault for purchasing a property on a corner,my fault for going out and confronting these youths when they are sat on the bonnet of my car or pulling the fencing panels out. They have said for me to install cctv in which i have, to endure more verbal abuse of being a grass. Each incident of anti social behaviour i report with the police, each time they say a patrol car is on its way and 95% of the time no patrol arrives. On at least 2 occassions the community beat team have been on duty and minutes away but do not get the deploy,or its 2hrs after the event they get the message.I have a daughter who has aspergus syndrome with selective mutisim and i myself suffers with depression. It came about for the second time last year that the police had told one of my harrssers about my mental health issues. At this point I have decided not to contact the police for anything. Since then i have had an attempted theft,a theft from my garden,stones at my windows and my daughter was building a snowman in the front garden to be bombarded with snowballs from 10 of these youths and calling her names.It comes to a sad state of affairs when you cant trust or have any faith in the police or justice system.Even Mr Brown could not comment but only appologies, for what me and my family were going through.
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The method round here is to display a sign saying they are taking antisocial behavious enforecment action. They then apologise for any inconvinience caused. No one about, but they have put up a notice.
Incidentally they have a similar notice about parking less then one hundred metres from the police station. That has no police either, and is routinely ignored.
Perhaps if there was an on street prescence it would help?
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There is a degeneration of comments recommending floggings, lashings etc?
I was caned for being bright enough to challenge two-faced behaviour between a dinner lady and a Headmaster in the 60's.
Albeit that many comments are 'tongue in cheek', 'ironic' or real? ASBOs as a term or phrase does not reflect nor address the suffering that law abiding individuals experience?
Why? Because Anti Social Behaviour Orders should be abolished and re-named as AMBOs. Anti Malicious and Bullying Orders???!!!
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Blame government targets for how ASB is monitored. If treated individually they do not register, they only appear when big enough to cross a threshold.
Personally I blame parents and the way society has been forced to evolve over the last 12 years. The state has tried to take parenting away from parents and to undermine families.
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The problem is that no matter what the police do you people will criticise them. You only have to read all the usual stupid HYS rants about 'Big Brother' and 'Britain is turning into a Police state' to see that, yet at the same time you want 10 year olds hung (see Bulger debate)
The cops actively dispersing any teenager accused of behaving 'antisocially' will instantly be condemned as 'Britain used to be a free society' and 'police intimidation'. Doubtless Trevor Philips will claim more black kids are being targetted and we can have a re-run of the Brixton riots too.
I've had one serious problem with anti-social behaviour. 10 year old kids were breaking fragments of brick off my wall and chucking it at my windows. A very young PC came out in 10 minutes, cruised the streets till he found the kids, bundled them into the back of his car, took them home and gave the parents a hell of a lecture about what he'd do if he had to come out again. Problem solved. That was Nottinghamshire police who are grossly underfunded and came out very poor in this report. Maybe if we gave guys like my PC our full support we wouldn't have this problem?
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To dispel some misconceptions, I can tell you that many anti-social behaviour calls are actually to groups of kids who really are doing nothing wrong. Despite apparent belief to the contrary, it really is not a crime to stand on the street in a hoodie and talk to your mates. Are the police powerless in this instance? Yes, because no crime has been committed. If they are drinking underage then the drink will be removed from them. If they are using drugs then they will be arrested. If they are damaging property then they will be arrested. If they are assaulting people then they will be arrested. If they are making too much noise they will be asked to quieten down but this is not actually a police matter (the local councils deal with noise nuisance and the police have no real powers in this regard). What else precisely do you want the police to do? There is a difference between perceived anti-social behaviour (which often boils down to "there's a group of kids hanging around and I don't like it") and genuine anti-social behaviour (which will be dealt with).
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The first thing would be to remove targets, reduce beaurocracy and get the police out on the streets where they belong. But as big a problem is the courts, police morale is low because when they do catch criminals they watch as time and again either the CPS don't follow through with charges because they can't guarantee a conviction (funny I thought that was a reason for having courts, judges and juries?!?) and finally the courts/judges/solicitors. Courts should sit for longer, I'm in favour of parts of the American system where courts operate at night as well as office hours (sorry, ours don't even do that), and then hand out sentences which equate to a pat on the head and told to be a good boy/girl and not to be naughty again. This is over and over and over and over again, not for dropping litter or stealing a bar of chocolate but for assault, carrying drugs, using knives, verbal and physical abuse, robbery, car theft (which puts our lives, yours and mine, in danger). Maybe on a first offence we gave them a custodial sentence for 2 weeks with a warning that next time it will be 2 months and the time after that 2 years, and not in our palace prisons but in more basic accom.
It should be clean, good sanitation, 3 meals a day and work, I don't care what at, it could be painting the grass green and the coal white but something instead of building up muscle in a gym.
If police could see some positive results and we could see positive results then we might stand a chance of getting our streets back.
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352 - Do you think is that something the tax payer would be happy to accept?
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"Speed does not kill, Bad driving kills just look to Germany and their liberal speed limits."
The liberal speed limits in Germany are the reason my brother, who was an active serving soldier, is now crippled, held together by metal pins and has internal injuries that will affect the rest of his life, also now suffering from recurring pneumonia, due to the bad driving of some other idiot.
Bad driving does not change just because the speed limit does, and obviously to use this as an excuse to speed proves to me that you are a criminal, being somebody who exceeds the speed limit.
Just because you don't like a law doesn't mean you have the right to break it.
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This is quite obviously just a completely unacceptable situation, but oh so common! I am personally in favour of the most severest penalties for these anti-social types. The situation has deteriorated to such an extent over the last few years, that drastic action must now be undertaken. The Politicians, Police and Judiciary, m-u-s-t be pressured to deal with these people in a manner that protects law abiding citizens lives and property. No more softly, softly, 'gloves on' approach. All that m-u-s-t go. It's time to forget about, so to speak, 'taking prisoners' now. It's all very well some people saying that these vicious characters come from difficult backgrounds and that they don't understand right from wrong etc. That may well be the case. I don't doubt that that applies to a number of them, b-u-t law abiding decent people are simply not prepared to tolerate suffering as an integral part of the anti-social types' learning experience! It is no wonder that people take the law in to their own hands, it really is, s-i-m-p-l-y t-o s-u-r-v-i-v-e! After all, at the end of the day, when it comes down to it, as the ol' saying goes: "It is far better to be judged by twelve, than carried by six"!
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I think we have to face up to the fact that our police are failing and/or are incapable of providing the level of community protection we require. We have to start thinking about new approaches and solutions. When it comes to the crunch, if they will not protect us, we have to do it ourselves. I'm not suggesting vigilantism but a concerted community response. This could include: the collection of evidence followed by private prosecutions, legal action to get the police to enforce the law, or even taking away the police's 'contract' and using our local taxes to employ other security agencies.
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J 299 writes
"So if anyone reads this who is feeling aggreived by ASB or witnesses it I would urge you to:
Call the Police and provide as accurate a description as you can of the offenders and their actions. Write it down at the time, it can be good evidence.
Assist them with their response - participate in a street ID of the offenders, give a statement and stand up in court.
That will empower the Police to use their full range of powers and protect the community more effectively, it's not 'us and them' as in Police versus Community, it's Police and Community versus Yobs."
In an ideal world, what you say makes sense.
In reality, it won't happen. The police will turn up too late, if at all. Once the police do arrive, they are so late and so clueless, they may as well not have bothered.
And we just don't trust you. Sorry, but we don't. So I wouldn't, now, either help a police officer in danger, or assist in investigations. I don't want to be involved.
My experience of the police is so negative - the ones I've encountered are stroppy, arrogant, lazy wastes of space. I would never consider giving them my address, if I'd witnessed ASB. The yobs would know who I was, and the police would not help me when the inevitable trouble started.
Sorry, but you've blown it. You've succeeded in alienating the law-abiding majority. That's serious, and it will take you ages to put right.
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I experienced a high level of anti-social behaviour while living in London some years ago. The police were only interested in damage to property. Having my home life taken over by these monsters didn't bother them much. When the police did attend, the culprits were long gone. I started carrying a camera with me at all times, so I could gather the evidence that eventually got one of the perpetrators punished.
I think we need firmer and more visible policing. And we need to back it up by ceasing to tolerate antisocial behaviour across society, starting with children. Some youths have gotten away with it for so long, they feel completely entitled to behave in the most appalling way.
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ASBOs are just a way of criminalising someone without recording a crime statistic. Get rid of them and require the (so-called) justice system including the police, CPS and the courts to treat these offences as offences. Record them - and yes, the precious statistics will look bad for a while - and prosecute and punish.
Society at the moment needs more deterents than it needs rehabilitation and second chances.
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How should anti-social behaviour be policed? - The police could start by doing something rather than nothing.
"Hattersley man dies after 'abuse from youths'"
A change in mindset might help too - "There is absolutely no evidence to suggest David was physically attacked or that his death was the result of any injuries inflicted upon him." ~ Ch Supt Zoe Hamilton, from Greater Manchester Police
It appears the cumulative effect of years of abuse is incapable of causing injury in the eyes of Police.
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Another problem we have with police today is that it's run by 'fast-track' senior officers who have no concept of the reality of police work on the streets. These degree wielding leaders understand keeping a record of crimes and statistics but are at a complete loss when it comes to dealing with a group of yobbos terrorising a neighbourhood. It looks better for their statistics if they can show a high number of successes (even if it is for dropping litter [which I hate btw] )rather than attending cries for help with no satisfactory outcome because the perpetrators fled when they knew police were coming.
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Years ago people used to confront 'anti-social' behaviour as a community. The problem now is that there is no community in the sink estates Britain. You can blame the govt (past and present) and police to an extent, but a large part of the blame also lies with individuals who have the attitude 'as long as it's not me i'll turn a blind eye'. They wont confront, report or give evidence against these thugs. I agree that part of the problem is a belief that 'the police wont do anything', but if we are all entirely honest it's also largley because people are scared of reprisals and wont risk harm to them or their property.
Please don't start telling me 'but if we intervene we'll be arrested ourselves'. If someone is under attack (physically or mentally) the law DOES allow you to aid in the defence of a person, as long as it's 'reasonable' force.
The thing is, there are many more decent people than there are thugs, even in the worst sink estates in Britain. If we ALL start to confront the thugs together as a community it WILL give them something to worry about, and it WILL make them think again. I'm not talking about vigilante attacks, but if the thugs are in a gang of 5 hurling abuse at someone, if everyone decent person from the street came out to confront them the thugs would be outnumbered 10 to 1 or more. If people started taking pictures, keeping records, reporting and TESTIFYING against the thugs as a community it may just start to make a difference.
Set up neighbourhood watch groups of as many people on your street as you can, and agree that if one of you spots anti-social behaviour you deal with it together, within the law of course.
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policing anti social behaviour has failed because this isnt just a police problem, its the responsibility of the community to report anti social behaviour and for the police to act on our complaints, the problem is too many of us expect the police to do all of the job, while we hide behind our curtains,
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Anti social behavior orders were introduced by the labour government as a panacea for all minor crime.
They did not work. They do not work.
Far from a deterrent they are seen as a badge of honour by many youths.
So lets find a deterrent that isnt thought of as something to be proud of. Like cleaning our streets, rebuilding our society as well as being made to pay back the victims of their crime in full the full value of the items they have either damaged or stolen.
And YES, make them wear highly visible jackets that show they are criminals doing their part to rebuild our society.
Draconian measures - No.
Justice!
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Should the malicious, sly WEAK and bullying type of person in UK under ASBOS when they should be under Harmful Aggravating Malicious Orders?
HAMOs would not be popular as a 'badge of 'onor man'?
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The fault is by and large not that of the police officers, it is to be laid at the door of politicians.
It is time to require change, to demand that politicians respond to the concerns of the citizens who employ them rather than to the mouthings of party leaders following their own agendas.
As for the police, we should demand direct local election of police authorities. No more unaccountable faceless placemen, but local citizens who actually want to see the job done properly, their community protected and criminals once convicted behind bars, and who are prepared to give some time towards providing direction to the local constabulary.
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I was delighted to hear that our street has it's own community beat officer. May I be the first to congratulate him/her on their covert skills. In the five or so years I have lived in **** ******** Street, I have never seen you. Do you hide up a tree or have you gone deep undercover and infiltrated the gang itself? Are you the one with the acne and the moustache on his forehead or the one with a chin like a wash hand basin? It's surely only a matter of time before you are head-hunted by MI5.
Whilst I realise that there may be far more serious crimes taking place in ***** such as smoking in a public place or being Muslim without due care and attention, is it too much to ask for a policeman to stop this illegal behaviour? Or explain to them that they might want to cause havoc elsewhere?
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we need police on the streets,and punishments that work......neither of which despite government claims to the contrary are happening.
The only thing that consistently changes is the way crime target figures are reported,so we the public cant compare like with like.
The program Yes minister was actually a documentary not a comedy it appears.
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Ron wrote:
"Speeding Motorist are proper criminals, we cannot pick and choose the laws we wish to follow and discard the ones we don't. Perhaps if speeding motorist stopped speeding then the police can put the resources back on the streets?"
350. At 2:01pm on 11 Mar 2010, Realist of Worcester wrote:
"Get real Ron!! If I drive at 31mph in a 30mph limit who has been hurt? Who has been injured? Who is out of pocket?"
Get real 'Realist'! The police DO NOT pull you for speeding by doing just 1 mile an hour over the limit, nor do they for 2, 3 or even 4 mph over the limited. In MOST cases the driver will have been doing well in excess of the limit, probably more like 40mph in a 30mph zone. People's inability to realise when their own selfish actions are putting lifes at risk it's another major problem in the UK. I manage fine by doing 30mph so why can't you?
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As the comment (299) from 'A PC' demonstrates very well, it is simply no use responding to these problems reactively and from a distance. If we had local Police 'on the beat' they would no doubt have seen the group of youths in question, hopefully have talked to them 'socially' and, if the youths still caused a problem, the Police would then KNOW who they were and be able to deal with them appropriately. This would be 'Rule of Law', whereas what we have all too often instead is 'yob rule', with the Police being too far away to protect anybody (or anything).
If the Police really believe in this 'reactive' approach, relying on the public for information, perhaps they would like to try being consistent and get the public to look out for and report speeding motorists, instead of them sitting in lay-by's on sunny afternoons with radar guns (probably while the fences are being pulled apart elsewhere) ... enough said?
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A couple of yrs ago I endured harassment from an ex-partner. One particular day in the early hrs of the morning he decided to stand outside banging loudly on my door demanding to be let in, threatening to break down my door and shouting obscenities. I called the police and was aggressively told by a police control room operator that they weren't "sending out an officer just because someone's knocking on your bl**dy door! Just go an answer it!", then slammed the phone down. I put up with this harassment for months because I thought I was wasting police time. Then when it got too much and I had to report it, i was told "you should have reported this earlier"..... aaarrrgh!!!
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368. At 2:23pm on 11 Mar 2010, suzie127 wrote:
"Speed does not kill, Bad driving kills just look to Germany and their liberal speed limits."
Road deaths per 100,000 of population per year. Source World Health Organisation, 2008 figures:
Germany 6.0
United Kingdom 5.3
Netherlands 4.8
When there's a crash on the Autobahn the end result is usually absolute carnage.
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The image of the cheerful, helpful and community spirited 'bobby' is a myth. The peelers were disbanded on the first attempt because of corruption and racketeering. We are now living with a body who like the uniform, the disco light and the ability to intimidate but dislike the public. Who pays, who is accountable to who and who does the monitoring? The PCC? The Plinking Cabal of Cuneiforms. Of course, I could be wrong...
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I think it's disgraceful that youngsters should be allowed to bully elderly and feel they can get away with blue murder. We need discipline which is sadly lacking in our community today. Parents and Teachers aren't allowed to discipline does that not explain why yobs rule ok? Bring back corporal punishment. When I was at School you didn't argue with Teachers or parents. That's the way it should be not all this kid glove caper. This Country has gone too soft and anarchy will prevail if something isn't done and very soon before it gets worse!
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The trouble is that there number of police in this country, per head of population, is one of the lowest in the Western world. We need to treble the number of police and give them firearms as standard - with the full authorisation to use them if necessary. Then things will change for sure. Anti-social beahviour is nothing but criminal harassment and should be treated as such. It's time to replace ASBOs with prison and stop wrist slapping evil criminals. Otherwise we'll just have to arm ourselves and be prepared to shoot these parasites on sight. There is no alternative.
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The only way to lower anti-social behaviour is to charge and convict people under the appropriate laws.
Then if they persistently offend, they should be jailed.
Unfortunately, all the prisons are full. Prisoners are being released early.
Thus offenders know that they will not receive a long custodial sentence and anything else is not a deterrent.
So it comes down to building more prisons, something no government is willing to do, for reasons of cost and also because no-one wants this country to have US levels of incarceration rates.
However the logic that offenders in jail cannot commit crimes is irrefutable.
So the Police will continue to ignore behaviour and concentrate on serious crimes until the politicians step in to make sure that an arrest leads to conviction and incarceration.
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You can start by bringing back the beat bobby.
You can then go further by cutting out the red tape that forces the police to spend far too much time at the police station and untie their hands so they can actually do their jobs properly.
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"There is a difference between perceived anti-social behaviour (which often boils down to "there's a group of kids hanging around and I don't like it") and genuine anti-social behaviour (which will be dealt with)."
NO - there isn't a difference between the two. Crime and crime and anti-social behaviour (i.e. kids loitering on streets in large groups) is exactly what it says on the tin. You are are muddle headed. Just because an activity is not a crime does not mean that it is not anti-social behaviour. And the police do have powers to stop this behaviour regardless of whether or not it is an actual crime. The problem is that the police need greater powers and also need to be seen on the streets - this can't happen while we have a miniscule police force in the UK.
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Well by sending all these comments directly to Jack Straw with an invitation for him to re join the real world. Seriously the people who come up with these ideas must make sure they actually are implemented and not become appeasements and plattitudes just to attract votes. For anyone one prosecuted and found guilty there should be Zero tolerance and have the book thrown at them it is the only way to get through to these morons who make the quality of life for a great many civilised people at best uncomfortable and at worst unbearable. There should be no social service support for anyone found guilty and if they persist to be anti social they should be Jailed for a long time and any possessions they have should be sold to pay for any expences the tax payer incurs and totaly ignore the human rights brigade outcries.
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Stick them in good old fashioned stocks.The problem with ASBO's is that they are a