What's devolution done for you?
10 years on and 140 pieces of legislation later, has the Scottish Parliament changed your life for better or worse? Here are just some of the achievements (or failures, depending on your point of view) the Holyrood Parliament has brought:
- Free personal care;
- Ban on smoking in public places;
- The "right to roam" Scotland's countryside;
- Ban on hunting with dogs;
- Scrapping tuition fees for students;
- Scrapping of Section 28, abolishing the bar on the promotion of homosexuality;
- Free bus travel for the elderly;
- Free prescriptions for all.
And, oh yes, there was that building too! One of the biggest early controversies of the past 10 years was the cost of the £414m Scottish Parliament building — which opened 3 years late, at 10 times the original estimated cost. But is Holyrood, nonetheless, still a worthwhile addition to Edinburgh's skyline? It has, after all, won a total of nine major architectural awards.
What will the next 10 years bring? Would you like to see more devolution with additional powers for the Scottish Parliament or full independence? Thanks for you comments on today's Morning Extra. You can continue the debate here.
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~40~RS~)
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There are some good things that have come from devolution but, unfortunately some bad as well. For every case that something free has been provided I would like to remind the public that nothing is free and many, if not all free programs come at the absorbed cost into the general taxes and income required by government and paid for, with interest when borrowed to pay for, with interest. Scots have a long struggle to be devolved. We are still controlled in major areas by either Westminster as well as via the E.U. We have unfair trade and commerce with other countries. I am not saying devolution is not working... its just working very slowly and not completely for the freedoms, liberties and benefit of the Scots. There is still serious imbalance in politics, still controls and restrictions placed upon the Scots and areas where the people should take more of an interest in to correct.
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"Devolution is the statutory granting of powers from the central government of a state to government at a subnational level, such as a regional, local, or state level. It differs from federalism in that the powers devolved may be temporary and ultimately reside in central government, thus the state remains, de jure, unitary.
Any devolved parliaments or assemblies can be repealed by central government in the same way an ordinary statute can be. Federal systems, or federacies, differ in that state or provincial government is guaranteed in the constitution. Australia, Canada and the United States have federal systems, and have constitutions (as do some of their constituent states or provinces). They also have Territories, with less power and authority than a state or province.
The devolution can be mainly financial, e.g. giving areas a budget which was formerly administered by central government. However, the power to make legislation relevant to the area may also be granted."
So, the current state of affairs shows us we have moved forward but still have areas to work towards. Government, to work well for the people that it is to represent, should be small, not intrusive and not costly. Government should work to protect the individuals of their remittance. Government should empower the people and nurture prosperity through trade and commerce with other nations all the while not controlling them into servitude. The model we see in present day has some way to move to both embrace these ideals and reflect the needs of all of their people.
"A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government."
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can't believe you are still pedaling the status quo. not even the calman commission are now telling us the status quo is OK. full fiscal autonomy is what we need now despite brown and darling's blatant meddling.
the fact that they can meddle in the scottish parliments buisness is the problem.
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So far most of the callers have pointed out what "free" things they received. As I pointed out above nothing in life is free. If I give you the object but charge you for it through other means than the illusion of it being free is just that... an illusion. We have much to do to have the current system changed to work for the the people.
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Why would a Scottish Parliament never be a good idea? As a nation that has provided so much to the world having a free spirited country under the auspice of the UK parliament solely is a Victorian, Deckensian and out dated notion.
What needs to happen is the new generations continue to trust the processes that WE are more in control in more than ever. Any over inflated cost of any building to house such a democratic right is far more diminished now than ever. Scots need to ensure they use this parliament and it's processes to their rights and responsibilities- as should in order that the parliament is utilised fully for the needs of all Scots. Imagine if that did not exist?
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Well members of the Scottish Parliament are pre-moderated as well and that's the problem - the moderation weeds out revolutionary Scottish republicans and leaves the parliament stuffed with poor quality MSPs all forced to remain loyal to Queen Elizabeth.
So the worst failures of the Scottish parliament would be the usual death, disaster and missed opportunities the Scots have suffered over the last 10 years.
The best development in the last 10 years has been the internet and the best that can be said about the Scottish parliament is at least they have not tried to ban the internet in Scotland.
The second best thing was the 10 minutes I was on BBC 2 Scotland starring in the film the Right to Freedom of Assembly.
The hope for the future is Scots on line such as myself with my Scottish National Standard Bearer website and participating in forums such as the For Freedom Forums which I administer.
That is what promises finally to remove the UK's stranglehold over Scottish politics and then we can get the best Scots elected to Holyrood.
- Peter Dow
Scottish republican socialist Peter Dow, author and protester (video)
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=789SkK7uwiY
Peter Dow's Scottish National Standard Bearer website
http://scot.extroverthost.com/
The For Freedom Forums -
http://scot.extroverthost.com/forfreeset.htm
Register your own username and password -
http://scot.extroverthost.com/forum/profile.php?mode=register
A guide to how to register your username -
http://scot.extroverthost.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=281
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At 08:20am on 06 May 2009, wormitSteve wrote:
"There are some good things that have come from devolution but, unfortunately some bad as well. For every case that something free has been provided I would like to remind the public that nothing is free and many, if not all free programs come at the absorbed cost into the general taxes and income required by government and paid for, with interest when borrowed to pay for..."
Very valid point. I suppose really in Scotland we have always been a majority left of centre population who consider the common good slightly more important that personal gain. I think all the major parties supported for example,
Free Prescriptions, Free Bus Travel for Elderly, Free Tuition Fee's for Students.
These are examples of little policies that can have a massive difference on peoples lives for the better. Helping the most disadvantaged.
Now if I was going to cut something as the poster wormitsteve suggests I would start with for example:
Grace and faviour homes for wealthy MP's
Second Home payments allowing MP's to gain hundreds of thousands of profit by selling a house bought by the tax payer and revovated yearly with many of the goods ending up somewhere else.
Expenses system via the Inland revenue Self assessment on same rules as every other business. Why should MP's claim for Sky, Patio Heater, Plasma TV's Drink, Food, Taxi, Mistresses, etc. All at Tax Payers Expense
Curb Public sector pensions,
Reduce MP's pensions 8 years should not give you full pension
Lords Allowanaces and other expenses, pensions etc
Civil Service pensions
Thousands of Quango's and millions on special advisors
Illegal Wars
Trident
ID Cards
Big Databases
Nuclear Energy
Military spending on nuclear deterent
Military Aid to despotic regimes in middle east.
This is just an of the top of my head example of what I am talking about regardling priorities. People in westminster complain about the first list while applauding the vastly more expensive and unpopular raping of the public purse and murder of citizens of other countries.
In a just a decent society we can afford all of the things we need by scrapping all the things we do not need. Ffirst lets get Westminster to stop being a gravy train for the political classes to milk the country as they always have. We have just replaced a parasitic monarchy and hangers on with a parasitic political class.
Obviously the best way to acheive this is by breaking the problem into smaller managable parts. Lets start with an Independent Scottish Parliament. Then keep a close on on all the politicos and make sure they are held to account.
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That building is god-awful. The thing that really stings is that we paid for and then we have to pay AGAIN to go round it!
So far all I have seen from that building is either a mirror for the Westminster parliament, so no use there, or a place for Alex Salmond to stand and make us look like bitter sour lardies. If hes not eating hes using that immortal and cringe-worthy line " We sent them home tae think again".
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In the next 10 years I would like to see more devolved powers for the Scottish Parliament to the point were a federal UK exists.
Full independence will only come when the Scottish People can trust the Scottish Government to run their affairs completely and this will only come with more devolved powers. My vision is for the Scottish Parliament to have responsibility for everything on our own except defence and this will be the precursor to independence. Now is too soon and a referendum would be lost as the Scottish People are not ready for independence.
Its still a young institution and in time the Parliament building in our capital will be the home of the first independent Scottish Government for over 300 years.
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The strongest impact of devolution on the politics of Scotland has been to see the continuing decline of Labour as the first party of choice to the point where their vote share is now behind the SNP at Holyrood and barely ahead of the SNP for Westminster.
Nor is this just a Scottish phenomenon, the same is happening in Wales:
"Labour's support (in Wales) has plummeted. The 2007 assembly election saw its constituency vote drop to 32.2% while the 2008 local elections left Labour in a majority on just two councils."
While Unionist commentators in both Scotland and the Principality would like to claim this is just a 'temporary blip', the polling trends suggest something more permanent in the shift away from Labour.
It would appear that both the Welsh and the Scots, having more control over their own affairs, find the need to send a 'protest party' to Westminster (in the form of Labour) an increasing irrelevance.
Good news for everyone, apart from Gordon and his mendacious party.
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AlasdairMacAlasdair,
you wrote:
"Very valid point. I suppose really in Scotland we have always been a majority left of centre population who consider the common good slightly more important that personal gain."...
"These are examples of little policies that can have a massive difference on peoples lives for the better. Helping the most disadvantaged."
May I ask you to consider the following:
The polices you note between those lines are needed because the people of Scotland are not allowed free trade & commerce, are not allowed to prosper through industries that would challenge the current parent government and pay for these free items through back-door taxes or cost cutting in other areas. I would prefer reducing the debt through sound monetary policies rather then borrowing with interest to just get by. I would prefer encouraging people to look both at home abroad at the production needs and consider solutions that could be produced from Scotland for as well as for true free trade. I would prefer people working and, as a result of the aforementioned, reducing the tax burden so that they can afford to make decisions for themselves. I would rather give the Scottish people the means to not just live but enjoy life then to be bound by the ropes that certain social programs create, however beneficial or good willed they are, by a government that thinks less of their people then their careers. I believe in small government and therefore handing back the responsibilities of the individual to themselves. I believe in locally handling matters and having people more involved in matters so they see both the costs and benefits of any such program(s). But then again, I'm a libertarian and, although I may not agree with your view, I would fight for your right to be able to present it and be heard.
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Further to the last comment you may wish to review some of my other contributions as you may find them equally interesting.
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There are a few inaccuracies in this post, and the comments. Tuitions fees were not scrapped until 2007 - they were simply moved and renamed as a 'Graduate Endowment Tax'.
And secondly, tours of the building are to be free from September. The fact that 1.6million people have visited already however, I think stands testamount to it. It has always been free to enter the building, and anyone can walk in off the street and view the debates live in the chamber - it's a world of difference from Westminster.
Of course there have been good things and bad, you should expect that from any Parliament, but I think the majority have been good, and am optimistic about the next ten years of the Parliament.
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#9 this time it is serious - what an excellent post , i just which i had the skill to produce such a post . i fully agree that FFA is the way to go for several reasons.
firstly, that is about as much as the unionist's will allow.
secondly, we need to see that our elected politician's in the Scottish Parliament are actually up to the job.
thirdly, if and when the referendum comes it should be a multi question one - FFA or Independence , as the status quo and god forbid giving some powers back to Westminster are now no where to be seen, despite the labour party and the BBC's best efforts.
Sid
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It is interesting that Stewart doesn't list the cutting of business rates so that they are now marginally less than England's. It is the ONLY act of Holyrood which has actually made our economy more competitive.
All of the "achievements" he lists are either banning things, government spending more of our money or the enforcement of political correctness & it is perhaps unsurprising that the BBC approve of them.
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Graham,
What a depressing programme you hosted this morning!
Not for a minute do I think this was your fault, but did your producers scour the land for people with negative tales to tell? Sadly, I suspect the overwhelming majority of callers being agin the Parliament, just confirms the BBC's unwillingness to be positive about anything/anyone connected to the governing party of Scotland!
But let's be positive! I, for one, think that the Scottish Parliament ('SP')has caused a permanent sea change in politics north of the border and the one outstanding achievement has been the switch away from all the Westminster-centric media spin that we used to get 10 years ago. However, the achievements of the SP have been less than they could have been especially in the first eight years or so. That remains the case though the circumstances have changed and it remains my hope that the final re-positioning that was adopted by the opposition parties at the time of the Budget debate earlier this year may act as a 'bell-weather' for the way opposition parties co-operate in the future.
The Scottish people have clamoured for a variety of changes that the centre ground in the SP could well delivered, if only old entrenched attitudes towards other parties in the Parliament could be jettisoned.
It has been one of the great achievement of the SP (actually the Scottish people, of course) that the effects of the last election are still being worked out in the Parliament, but the signal change has been the creation of the old Labour Party ('LP') as effectively politically unelectable in this country. We have seen forced change after forced change bringing the LP to its political knees to such an extent that it is now wholly in favour of substantially increased powers for the SP - a position that the late Donald Dewar would never have considered. Beyond that the think of one George Robertson - 'devolution will kill the SNP stone dead' - is probably the classic political mis-judgement of recent years.
These things suggest to me that the greatest achievement of the SP has been to foster changes in the Scottish people themselves. The politicos of all parties that now unite to seek greater powers for the SP have been driven by the will of the people - a people growing in confidence by the seismic changes of the last election result.
Long may that continue!
Now, if only the SP could get to grips over the next few years or so with the overwelmingly burdensome reach of local government!! (and itself, or a suitable combination thereof!).
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Unfortunatley it's given rise to jingoistic comment by Will Hutton from the (so-called) left-wing Guardian. Don't make me laugh.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.politics.england.misc/browse_thread/thread/3e8b9b4b59bc4827
Devolution has been good. Roll on independence.
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Overall, it has been for the best, although there is still much to be done thanks to the constant uphill struggle we face against the UK Government, who continue to stand in the way of further development of the Scottish parliamentary system.
Most people want federalism of some description (full independence can wait for the future) - people want a real parliament with real powers. We are not there yet, but at least we have taken the first step.
High points of real significance include the Land Reform Act and the creation of the National Parks - as the homeland of John Muir, these developments were long overdue. Further work needs to be done to educate Scots as to the natural wonders on their own doorstep, as many seem to remain ignorant of them.
The Smoking Ban was also a very significant piece of legislation.
I would just like to point out here that the BBC and other media organisations delight in continually telling us that the parliament building was 'ten times over budget'.
Actually, the building you see before you was four times over budget, not ten. This is because the proposed £40m price tag was for the cost of a building on Calton Hill. Once it was decided that the site would be Holyrood, then a design was chosen for the new site and an estimated price tag of around £100 million was made for the new building.
The reality is that the building was four times over budget - still not good - but to imply that the present building ran over ten times its budget is a falsehood and one that the BBC should feel ashamed of continually reporting.
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Duglas remember that Donald Dewar said on the Today programme
"Tam Dalyell is wicked and alarmist to suggest that the cost of the Parliament Building will be one penny over £40,000,000." which seems a pretty conclusive guarantee. It should not be forgotten.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/6266857.stm
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i always remember the mantra from donald dewar A NEW KIND OF POLITICS i must have missed that , it continues to be snide , point scoring , blaming the other side , and oh yes lying , new kind of poitics indeed , we are the most governed country in the world , five tiers i think , who saw the credit crunch coming ,we are led to believe the parliament is full of experts on economic matters etc it proves to me that unelected business people have the real power , and all other matters in this western world are determined by these invicible people I offer no alternative it seems to me capitalism is the only game in town , by the way what is the proportion of fee paying school leavers in the parliament, and lets not get on our high moral horse on expenses ,am i right in thinking the rules on second home expenses were changed because some msp could gain nothing because he lived right beside the parliament , i hopesomeone can correct me on this matter , however credit where credits due the smoking ban well done on that cant imagine that cost the taxpayer much
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we should all be better off if they closed the Holyrood circus and sacked all of its clowns, Its a feeble and toothless behemoth of a place that has no real powers and only creates more needless laws than are required. Im scottish through and through but I still think I would rather that we run Britain from westminster. The SNP/Labour ans all just squanders money by opposing everything westminster says, why pay for all these toothless mudslingers who are no more than jumped up local councillors wasting millions if not billions on madcap ideas.
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#20 hilljim - watched Westminster at lunch time today Scottish questions & prime ministers questions and learned absolutely nothing that i didn't already know. complete shower of wasters. i am not saying that the Scottish Parliament is perfect ,far from it, but it is in a hellov a better state than the rabble i witnessed today. we are paying these specimens £0000's and of course we then allow them to claim expenses . do we get a good return for our money? certainly not, most of them unable to run a bath never mind a country.
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What it's done for me is reinforce my view that we desparately need to rid ourselves of the corrosive influence of the Treasury and the City and control our own affairs and particularly our economy as an independent nation.
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While there has been some good legaslation passed by Holyrood, the problem I have with it is that it does not in my view represent value for money. How much did the rebrandng from the Exectutive to Government cost the taxpayer? Also I find it quite irritating that Alex Salmond goes running round like El Presendente despite the fact that he has no resal powers and a tiny minority in Holyrood.
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yes sidthesceptic watched british parliament i thought mr brown was going to cry and take his ball home because they never asked the right questions , hilarious ! it is my honest belief that this parliament ie scotlands needs more work , i propose we do away with all local councils and have them run by the parliament surely in a small country like ours we can do that , ahh i hear you cry what about local democracy , my retort ! sounds like a good idea show me where it exists, did you know some council jobs high up that is pay £100,ooo plus and there unelected , in dundee the present lord provost jumped ship without standing for re election , surely msp,s running the show would be a slight step above the old regional councils , anyway whats local in this technological age, i say let them work for there money , yeah sure they would have to employ some staff to help them thats fine , in fact lets audit there working day ! happens to everyone else , come on peoples parliament show me what you do ! and how its measured
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So far devolution has been good for Scotland, especially in the last few years. SNP have raised the profile and against all odds (the unionist media) have done a pretty good job.
The parliament has had some good debating over limited issues, and made resounding policy using a fixed budget. Compared to watching the school yard boo boys in Westminster shouting abuse at each other while actually saying nothing (just like some of the unionist contributors here) the Scottish parliament is a far more sophisticated model.
The calman commission is a smoke screen for doing nothing, Scotland needs and deserves better. More fiscal autonomy and powers are required for this to happen.
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25 HillJim:
I would disagree with your notion that we should do away with local government but rather reform local government and remove career politicians. I would argue the point as the further we remove officials from local issues and contact the more they become removed from their people. Quite the opposite, we need to return to local representation with accountability, less government and handling local issues on behalf of their people. Further, we need people to become more involved and, as a result, more responsible. Empowering the people would help to reduce the size of government and therefore the costs.
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