Should the NHS pay for IVF?
A report from the Conservatives says your chances of getting IVF paid for by the NHS still depends on where you live in England.
But is IVF something that should be paid for by the NHS at all? Should public money be used for fertility treatment? Or is there a better way of spending our taxes than making peoples' dreams of being a parent come true?
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I will probably be in the minority, but I do not think that IVF should be available on the NHS. THere are so many children looking for families (through adoption) why bring even more into an already overcrowded country.
The money saved could be put to better use in areas such as medical research, and to protect those children that are being bought up in an unsafe environment.
I am lucky enough to have my own children, but I would not have considered medical interference had it not happened naturally. Women do not have an automatic right to have children, and having been there, I do not understand those that say they want to carry their own - pregnancy is hard work, especially after the first when you are then running around after a toddler.
Maybe those that cannot have their own (biologically) should seriously consider adoption before turning to AI.
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just caught the back end of your conversation with david ginola and chris waddle to fantastic players but i had to laugh at david ginola saying chelsea were a club based on stability crikey they sack there manager every year and the owner likes to take a great intrest in the players that sign hardly a club based on stability i think mr ginola got confused with arsenal now that is a stable club with a great manager just like alex ferguson at man utd and liverpool with mr benitez
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I have to agree 100% with Karen on this one. No, IVF is -not- something for which the NHS should used.
I have been told by various doctors that the chances of my ever having children without IVF are pretty much non existent. Yes, it hurts to think that the dream I had simply cannot come true without help, but I have made my peace with it. I am aware of the overcrowding on this planet, I am aware too, of the number of children waiting for adoption or fostering. I will choose that route instead of forcing something which nature has decided against for me.
Quite simply, the NHS is under enough strain as it is, and needs to be looking at ways to preserve life, rather than assisting in its creation. The selfish wants of the few should not be allowed to impact the desperate needs of others. Having a child through IVF is a choice, after all, while falling desperately ill and fighting for one's life is not a path any of us would choose to take.
I would say though, that the adoption process does need looking at again, particularly thing like the apparent age limit of 40 etc etc.
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I feel for people who cannot have children, but the NHS was set up because people were dying needlessly for want of proper medical treatment. That's what it should be for - keeping the nation healthy and alive. Cosmetic surgery (except for reconstruction) and fertility should be carried out at expense of the person who wants it and not the tax payer.
I also agree that the adoption process could be made easier, people I know who would have made fabulous parents have simply given up on adoption because it's such a complex process to go through.
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No the NHS should not pay.
There are many sad couples wanting a child but if you discover you are infertile or unable to carry a child to term and IVF is the only answer, I am afraid you should pay privately. The NHS can barely cope with the workload it faces every day. The argument that some procedures such as cosmetic surgery are available is facile because the judgement is generally made on other issues concerning the patient, not just because they want to look better which is what that argument suggests. The people who cannot conceive without IVF are of course facing a huge disappointment, but that is life.
I am afraid that today the "I want..." style of living means that the ability to come to terms with the "sadly I cannot..." has been lost, it is a generation thing and it is very sad.
The number of morbidly obese patients needing treatment for diabetic-related illness is one of the major reasons the NHS is being bled bone-dry. Maybe there would be more money if the "I want another burger and chips" mob learnt a bit of self-control.
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Our PCT offers one go of IVF, however we don't qualify for funding, due to my partner having children from a previous relationship. This to me is criminal, as I feel that because another woman had children, I don't get allowed the chance to try, by virtue of who I chose to fall in love with. Infertility is such a painful thing to go through, and the problem lies with me, so I feel the PCT should treat me, and not take my partners status into consideration. Yet the same week we were denied funding our local paper did a feature on a couple getting £24000 gastric bypass surgery for being over weight.
Where is the equality in that. Obesity in many cases a self inflicted condition, infertility is not. Yet they get all that funding, and we get nothing.
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@Kareninscotland, until you know what it is like to struggle for children when you really want them, you can never truly know what decision you would make regarding fertility treatment, so I will politely disregard your remarks.
@MsMarriette, yes the planet is overcrowded, so perhaps if we are to stop IVF we should also just allow people to die a little sooner? Perhaps we should cease investigation into cancer and HIV, strokes and diabetes? I have a 3 week old born thanks to IVF, who according to you is the result of the "The selfish wants of the few". Well, thanks for labelling me selfish. Much the same way you are at peace with your decision not to proceed with IVF I am at peace with your derogatory remarks.
Thanks to all those who have helped me and my wife realise our dream. Especially those incredibly professional people at the Hammersmith IVF clinic.
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Infertility is like any other illness. Infertile women (or men) do not choose to be imperfect human beings - any more than those who may be born with any other defect. In addition - the emotional pain associated with infertility can lead to a lifetime of other mental health issues. The NHS exists to treat everyone - for free - at the point at which treatment is necessary. So in the same way we treat other birth defects - we should treat this one. That said, we don't have an endless supply of money - so three cycles seems more than reasonable. Perhaps it would be better to save money in the NHS by targetting people who themselves cause their own health problems by smoking, eating high cholestrol diets or drinking too much alcohol: I'd rather not contribute to their health care thank you.
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Ultimately IVF I a last resort and other fertility treatments, ie Clomid, often get the job done.
It is great that Karen doesn't think that she would have opted for IVF had she not conceived naturally and sad that MsMarriette could not conceive. She did have a choice thanks to NHS provision.
My wife has PCOS. It's a condition that affects the ovaries process of releasing an egg. That was no more a choice than getting a "serious illness". one further thought, in an ever ageing population it is hugely necessary to increase our young population otherwise who will care for us when we are dementing and infirm? Who will work to pay taxes for public services?
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Interesting comments re adoption.
Nicky and others expressed the importance of seeing / producing a birth relative "of their own"?
Im adopted and am lucky enough to have a family of my own - I think I would have taken the IVF route first if it was accessible to me and maybe then considered adoption. How about you? Would you consider adoption?
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No,pay for it themselves or adopt.The NHS was not set up for this,its their to provide universal health care,not service the whims and wants of people who could and should adopt.It may well be that the adoption rules aer very poor and need to be changed ,but the cost of this type of service is too high and should not be free,go privately if its that important or live with it like many before.Sorry for people who can't have children but you don't get everything in life you want...for free!
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I am really angry with that gentleman saying 'get over it'. How dare he think he has any idea how it feels to not be able to have a family. David I hope you hug your children tightly next time you see them, and be thankful for the blessing you have. Don't judge less you are in the same situation!
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I agree that IVF should NOT be treated on the NHS. It's not necessary - it's a choice. There are thousands of children out there that can't just "IVF" up some parents - and as a lot of callers have talked about how they "feel" they need to have children, how do you think these orphan children "feel" when parents decide they'd rather spend thousands to create a child that MUST have their genes rather than take in and love an existing person? Surely that would display the philanthropy and compassion necessary to be a good parent? Surely believing that your child NEEDS to have your genes, that you WANT to have a biological child is selfish, and therefore bad criteria for parenthood? Parenthood is 100% about the child - it does not matter what you want or need. If you don't agree with that fine, but what makes you think you can use my money - that you have a RIGHT to use my money - to do this?
Someone said that IVF was a treatment for endometriosis on the radio show. Does the woman have this condition? If you have endometriosis, or (as I do ) PCOS - spend money on treating the condition rather than the symptoms. Hormonal condiitons plague your entire life, and IVF will do nothing to help this. I am currently on diabetes medication, contraceptives, and prostate cancer medication (which explicity says DO NOT GIVE TO WOMEN) because there is no official treatment for PCOS, despite the fact that 1 in 5 women have it. I don't want IVF, I don't want to spend hundreds on hair wax and regaine every year, I don't want to have to live on 1000 calories a day for the rest of my life. I want a treatment for my condition.
It's ridiculous that dying cancer patients need to pay for their own drugs and IVF can be allowed. Yes, I think treating smoking on the NHS is ridiculous too, and cosmetic surgery on the NHS - you can get a boob job on the NHS, but what about my PCOS induced hair loss? I can't even get a wig on the NHS, and it's no less "emotinally damaging" as having small breasts.
"We were put here to procreate". Really? Were you aware that the need to procreate was put in place to foster societal growth and a status quo? We don't know why we were put here - several people have beliefs suggesting various things, but this is no basis for the actions of the NHS. Furthermore, if we were put here to procreate, what are the implications on homosexuality?
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No the NHS should not pay for IVF treatment.
As many people have said, the purpose of the NHS is to save lives and ensure good medical care. You do not 'need' to have children in the way you need food, shelter and warmth for survival. People 'want' children. Unfortunately this society too often confuses what they need and what they want.
My view is one of natural selection and 'survival of the fittest'. We are here today because we have evolved: strong characteristics, genes etc get passed on between generations, and weaker characteristics die out. If you can't conceive naturally, your body/nature/god is telling you something. Either your body can't cope with child birth, or you have an underlying genetic condition which should not be perpetuated.
My concern is by assisting people to have children are we creating a time bomb where we have a generation of people conceived by IVF who have underlying genetic medical conditions passed on by their parents who in other circumstances wouldn't have had children.
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Many congratulations to you, TepidThoughtMachine on your new baby.
I am sorry you believed I was making a derogatory comment aimed specifically at you, but this simply was not the case.
As far as I was aware the Hammersmith clinic wasn't even NHS, so you learn something every day.
When I mentioned the selfish wants of others, I referred to all those situations where non-essential treatment is given to people who have brought a situation on themselves, such as those who choose to go for a gastric band to be fitted, rather than simply trying to lose weight themselves as well. However, this discussion was related to IVF on the NHS and not the other issues.
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I would be interested to know whether the people making value judgments on the NHS providing IVF for childless couples are smokers, drinkers, eat too much fatty food and feel that they should be provided with free health care when their individual life choices cause them future illnesses.
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I do feel for people that cannot concieve naturally but parenthood is a choice not a necessacity
In a world where medication cannot be given in some cases because of cost and extensive waiting lists,its seems very illogical
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PCT's are always saying that they won't offer certain drugs (cancer or parkinson's etc.) because of NICE guidelines. NICE has said that every woman should be offered 3 chances of IVF on the NHS, however 80% of PCT's are not offering it.
PCT's are very quick to say no to certain treatments and blame NICE, yet will not follow NICE guidelines on this. It's wrong.
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@MsMarriette, I appreciate your reply.
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Very good point surfingmarkie!
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@psychiatricnurse
"one further thought, in an ever ageing population it is hugely necessary to increase our young population otherwise who will care for us when we are dementing and infirm? Who will work to pay taxes for public services?"
So you want to have children so you can have someone to look after you when you're old? Children should not be born as a means to an end. I have a childless aunt in her 80s, but because she was a fantastic human being to everyone around her, she has a lot of help from friends and family in her old age - no need to have children. Should we just let the population grow and grow until...what, all natural resources die out and we're left with an oversaturated planet of starving homeless people?
@gorgeousmumbojumbo Infertility cannot by definition be a birth defect. And yes, I agree, treating people for diabetes/obesity because they simply eat too much is ridiculous.
@carrie
"I am afraid that today the "I want..." style of living means that the ability to come to terms with the "sadly I cannot..." has been lost, it is a generation thing and it is very sad."
YES YES YES
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No of course not,Fertility problems are not an injury or life threatening illness, thats not what the NHS was set up for. IVF, Breast enlargement, Tattoo removal etc are not issues the tax payer should be paying for, its the sole responsibility of the individual to pay for such things. The NHS is so far off what it was set up to be it bnow wastes millions every wek. its not so long since Children with diabetes had to PAY for the needles and syringes to ionject the insulin with, while drug addicts with self inflicted conditions got theirs for nothing.
Infertility is NOT an illness or and Injury, its just plain bad luck.
Put it this way IF YOU CAN AFFORD TO RAISE CHILDREN YOU CAN AFFORD IVF TREATMENT, If you cant afford IVF then there is no way you can afford children.
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I have to agree with Carrie (post #5) in that the "I want" culture is getting out of hand. I have two amazing little cousins born of IVF, but I still cannot get behind the idea of it being available on the NHS. In the case of women who cannot naturally conceive nature has made a cruel choice, but I'm afraid that's life. I for one do not want my national insurance contributions spent on a couple desperate for their own offspring when thousands of needy children go un-adopted each year.
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@northernraider, "IF YOU CAN AFFORD TO RAISE CHILDREN YOU CAN AFFORD IVF TREATMENT"
Huh? Children need to be raised knowing they are loved and cared for, not by the size of the lump sum a person can come up with.
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@ Craig-Disko - just putting it out there, if infertility is 'natural selection', what is cancer??
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Northernraider - by the logic of your argument cancer treatment for lung cancer due to smoking, cancer treatment for liver cancer due to drinking, gastric surgery for the obese, etc are self inflicted illnesses - should we not treat them?
It is too easy to say that the NHS cannot afford treatment - the NHS cannot afford a large number of treatments, the focus of this debate should not be on which treatments should be given and which shouldn't it should be on what do we need to do as a society to ensure that there is enough money and facilities to ensure treatment for all.
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I don't think the NHS should be paying for IVF treatment. There are an awful amount of people who have children far to frivolously these days "because it's the next thing to do in the relationship". The amount of children who are out and about past the time they should be and not being disciplined is ridiculous. Families can't be bothered once they have the child and the child is therefore left up to its own devices and more often than not get involved with gangs. I'm not saying this is all children as there are some very hard working children out there. It does seem to me though we had a much better turnout of adults when we had the saying "children should be seen but not heard". Children are far too over indulged and its harming our society. They expect everything to be handed to them and now they know they can’t be touched don’t have any respect for adults. In some cases the parents don’t deserve any respect from the child but this frivolous idea of having children for the sake of having them isn’t working people.
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My wife and I paid for an unsuccessful IVF cycle, suffered a miscarried natural pregnancy and cut short a second IVF cycle when it became clear the private clinic was only interested in maximising their fees, when they could not justify a procedure that my medically trained wife knew to be unnecessary.
We are now in the process of adopting a 5-year old following an extremely intrusive two years of being approved for adoption.
My view is that like private IVF clinics the Conservatives are cynically exploiting one of the most distressing life events people face, infertility.
If all couples were offered three IVF cycles on the NHS, without the profit motive perhaps more effort would be put into investigating the reasons for couples' infertility. There may be simple lifestyle or dietary changes that would improve the chances of a natural pregnancy.
All IVF is, is an expensive gamble where the odds are no better than the natural free gamble each month.
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@FuzzyIain, "There are an awful amount of people who have children far to frivolously"
I think you'll find most people at your local IVF clinic aren't on some frivolous adventure. Most will be desperate for kids, will have been trying for several years, will have been through all the diagnosis and tests, and are now in there last chance saloon of ever getting a bioligical child of there own.
People don't go through IVF on a whim.
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I have not had time to read all the previous comments or listen to the phone in but I can speak from experience of being infertile
It is only people who are not infertile who would say that the NHS should not pay for treatment. For any person, especially a woman not to be able to have children naturally is an extremely painful and emotional experience. In my experience, this has been after years of having avery painful and hormonal menstrual cycle, every month is a sucession of hormones followed by pain, which many women who experience infertility suffer. This is a silent illness, we are expected to carry on, it is not something that can be discussed openly, we have to suffer in silence. This is an illness like any other illness. My partner and I were recommended for IVF last year in the East Mildands only to be told that we would have to pay for it ourselves as my partner has a child from a previous marriage. We have been together 12 years and his daughter is a teenager. This caused us undue pain and distress. It was very difficult to find out information about why and it was only through my persistence and letter writing that I was told that this was a monetary decission made by the primary care trust in the East Midlands. To be told that I cannot have a free round of IVF because another woman has child was very difficult to take and understand. After many months of dicussion, we eventually decided to get a loan for £5,000 and have a round of treament. Unfortunatley the treatment was not successful and on top of the emotional pain of not conceiving we also have to pay back £5,0000. We are now in the situation where we have to decide to give up or to put oversvels in more debt. I feel that we should be entitled to fair treatment, we always pay or taxes and national insurance and very rarely use the NHS for other tretments. It is only when you experience these things that you can understand them and for any woman who has a child naturally to say to women who can't that they should adopt has absoultey no understanding of what it is like not to be able to have a child or how difficult the adoption system is.
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It is never a good argument to say that people not in a situation cannot understand it. Obviously people who are not infertile do not fully understand the pain of those who are - this doesn't make them unable to be a part of the decision-making process as to where their taxes are spent. If you followed this line of reasoning it would be impossible to govern the country.
At the end of the day, this is a debate about resource allocation. For all those arguing that the NHS cannot 'afford' to pay for IVF treatment this is quite clearly not true. 80% of NHS trusts ended the 07/08 year in financial surplus. As a proportion of GDP (despite a huge increase under Labour over the last 10 years) we still pay less for our health care (and less in total tax) than other European countries.
The other thing to bear in mind is that the NHS funding does not stand alone, unconnected from all other publicly funded entities. The NHS costs £90 billion a year whereas the benefits system costs £100 billion, a very large chunk of which goes to paying benefits to those with children (some of whom are the people commenting here that they shouldn't pay for IVF through the tax system). In addition, the Education budget is £80 billion, which obviously only benefits those with children.
If we want to pay for IVF treatement then we CAN afford it. So the question is: do we want to?
I simply cannot see the logic that says it is OK for those who are unfortunate enough not to be able to conceive naturally to pay large sums of money through taxation to those that are, but that it is unfair to expect those that can conceive naturally to pay what in relative terms is a miniscule sum to help a relatively small number of people conceive through medical assistance.
If you are going to say that, 'if you can't afford IVF you can't afford a child' then we would have to say that you can't afford to have a child if you need to draw Child Benefit, Working Tax Credit, Child Credit and to use the national school system. The argument is clearly nonsense.
As a society we just have to decide what our priorities are and in view of the fact that making children is probably our most basic instinct I think that helping those that cannot do so naturally should be a very high priority.
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I was included in the live phone in this morning. There were so many points raised that we can either agree with or diagree with. Its so easy to think that infertility is a condition that should be taken lightly. Although my story may have sounded like a cut and dry easy route, it most certainly wasn't. A lot of heartache (that still rears its ugly head, sometimes) and soul searching. Back in the early 80's IVF had to be paid for by us if that was the route we were to take.We couldn't afford then what it would take to pay for the treatment.Whist I would have loved a child of my own biologically, for us it was about having a family, raising, nurturing and parenting.I think sometimes the need for a baby clouds the fact that life doesn't stop at giving birth.This is said with hindsight and the knowledge that the pain does lessen. Fostering chidren with special needs and then adopting two children (from babies, as I wanted to start where everyone else does) with Downs Syndrome really does help to put things in perspective.We still had the joy of holding our babies for the first time and watching them develop and reaching their milestones.We go through all the same issues as natural parents we just didn't give birth.All I ever wanted was a family, it just took us on a different path than we originally thought in order to get what we wanted. With absolutely no regrets.In answer to the question should the NHS pay for IVF then my answer is a solid YES.
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I have had PCOS symptoms since my early teens. I was diagnosed in 2000, but told merely to try and lose weight - 'worry about it when it comes to you being in a relationship and trying to conceive'. I met my husband 5 years ago, and only when I went for a smear last year I was reminded of my diagnosis - which I had totally put out of my head. Girls need to be told sooner how detrimental PCOS will be to their health and chances of having a family, if they do not make improvements to their diet & lifestyle immediately.
Now I am having blood tests, and we shall take things from there - it would be just our luck if things did change now and we couldn't get ivf on the NHS. It is a MEDICAL problem - we pay NI & taxes; so yes IVF should be available on the NHS. That NHS trusts aren't following guidelines and sticking to the rules does not surprise me one bit, but what are the government going to do about it? I bet that they will change the rules so that we are only entitled to one go at IVF. Just as I need it...
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This has all dried up now. But being a hard working member of the NHS I didn't have time to reach for my phone til the end of the day. Many posters state that the NHS was never set up for this or many other services it currently provides. This is true. It would be nice to know their opinions on mental health provision, as at the time of the birth of the NHS attempting suicide was something that had you before the beak. Expensive psychiatric and psychological treatments were never indicated in the original NHS because I presume they did not exist. It is certainly in my professional opinion, of great benefit to society that these treatments and services now exist. Had IVF had existed at the birth of the NHS it may have been part of the NHS as it was concieved. (pardon the pun)
@shreenas it is completely wrong of course to have a child for personal reasons. It is however a fact that there will be fewer working age adults to meet societies needs. By that I meant when you go to the hospital with what have been described as genuine illnesses do you want there to be enough nurses and doctors to care for you? Smokers don't choose to have cancer and we treat them regardless.
It is arrogant to pretend that you have the right to choose for anyone but you. Organisations such as NICE choose what treatments are effective and efficient to treat disorders and illnesses. It is they that make these decisions and make recomendations. The PCT needs to amend it's criteria to match this. There are NHS trusts who are making millions in profit each year and saving it for a rainy day, that is money that could be spent elsewhere and this Labour government has enabled this by creating Foundation trusts and allowing land to be sold off.
Rant over from me and I hope I offended no one. It was not my intention. Apologies for spelling but my iPhone makes some crazy spellchecker changes. :)
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@lauzjp
best wishes to you and your husband. I hope that your tests come back fine and hopefully a course of Clomid will do the job.
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@ geniusghost - I'm surprised at your question, as a great deal of the massive increase in cancer cases over the last few decades can be directly attributable to lifestyle choice and not, as you are trying to imply, natural selection. Smoking and obesity are two of the most prevelant contributing factors, but there is a great deal of research that suggests there are many, many lifestyle factors such as lack of exercise, increasingly refined foodstuffs, omnipresent radio frequency signals such as mobile masts and wi-fi, all of which, over the course of an average lifetime, subject your body to huge cumulative punishment. Sorry to burst your bubble.
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@craig-disko
it's a good point you make. But we are discovering that their are some mutated genes that are wrongly "switched on" in a cruel twist by nature. So whilst environmental, social and lifestyle factors can impact on some illnesses including cancers but genes do play a part. Sorry to burst your bubble. :p
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I work in the NHS & pay all my taxes and unfortunatley has had to pay for all three IVF cycles.I dont hear people complaining about self harmers, addicts( drugs/alcochohol) who keep on coming back and getting treated over & over again and what about none compliant patients who are just a waste of resources.What about transplants which fail and all the other trial and error operations.Infertility is not a self inflicted conditon and if they waste thousands on self harmers and addicts why cant they spend it on hard working tax paying me.Why should I adopt when there is and option I can have my own flesh and blood unless it fails. All the people complaining have obviusly got children or choose not to. Please!!! i see it all on a daily basis and it make me sick to se the double standards
amy
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The question should not be 'can the NHS afford fertility treatment?'. The question should be 'should the NHS fund fertility treatment in preference of other treatments?'. The NHS has limited funds and PCTs have to make decisions on the treatments that it believes will give the population the greatest health gain. I personally do not believe that fertility treatment improves the health of the population and funds would be better spent elsewhere.
Incidentally, PCTs do not fund cosmetic surgery, tattoo removal etc. other than in exceptional circumstances.
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