Football violence - did it ever really go away?
Pitch invasions, a man stabbed outside the ground, bottles and bricks thrown - the FA are investigating last night's trouble at West Ham v Millwall. It looked like a return to English football's dark days in the seventies and eighties.
25 years ago, crowds were falling, there was no TV money, and English clubs were eventually banned from Europe after Liverpool fans ran riot before the 1985 European Cup final at Heysel. But now we have all-seater stadiums, expensive tickets, better security, and prawn sandwiches.
Is football violence back? Did it ever really go away? Is it still an intimidating environment for some fans? Or was last night an exception, a local derby with a predictable threat of violence? With better stadiums, better security and clubs working hard to make the experience more inclusive, is modern football actually far safer than it was?
Call Shelagh on the Breakfast phone-in this morning.
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I was at the Boleyn Ground last night, as a life-long West Ham regular.
No way is the violence related to the econimic crisis! It is always likely when West Ham meet Millwall.
I heard some foreign languages spoken as I walked outside the ground after the game - I think this particular match-up is seen as an opportunity to cause trouble by some minorities from both sets of fans, as well as thugs from home and abroad. I recall being in Italy for Italia 90 and meeting some skinheads Liechtenstein who supported Millwall and England in order to get involved in trouble. I did indeed spot the same lads a year or two later when I went to a Millwall / West Ham game.
This particular fixture is also now famous beyond these shores thanks to films such as Green Street, with West Ham hooligans in particular gaining a global reputation through a whole raft of films.
It was a sorry sight last night, and for the previous Millwall game a few years ago, to see the Bobby Moore World Sup statue boarded up for protection.
Trouble was, and will always be, inevitable. But the majority of fans in the stands were calling for the invaders to leave the pitch, and the intruders faced a chorus of boos.
Bob, Croxley Green
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When this tie was first drawn, millwall were allocated 3000 tickets, but the police decided to half the allocation to 1500, millall were then allocated a further 800 totally 2300. There was going to be a further 1500 given to millwall by west ham but he police did not allow that. Maybe the police were partly to blame for the violence last night by not allowing the full allocation to be taken up. Maybe there would have been some trouble last night but not as big. As for the pitch invasions that was West Ham.
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This is a serious but isolated incident. It is an extreme reaction to say that football violence has returned across the UK. 99.9% of matches are played in safe and friendly environment. West Ham v Millwall is a fixture that was always going to bring those 'fans' out of the woodwork that were involved in violence in the 80's. The trouble was pre-meditated and the police were not equipped to deal with it, simple as that.
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seanbeanstattoo give it a rest mate this is not a isolated incident the english disease hoologanism is alive and kicking and has been for years beacuse we turn a blind eye to it it happens away from the ground out of sight from the cctv but it happens on a regular basis in this country but its brushed under the carpet any football fan will tell you the firms exist in most clubs and have it off every week they organise it over the net and we do nothing about it
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we can say goodbye to the 2018 world cup bid now there is no way uefa and fifa will give us the world cup to host in 2018 and its our own fault had we dealt with it years ago and banned these idiots and given prison sentences instead we have turned a blind eye to it and the hoologan firms have been allowed to get away with it out of sight of the cameras
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Of course football violence never went away!
Round up the troublemakers, put them all in a secure enclosure and let them punch the lights out of each other.
Problem solved.
Cheers
Cris (exiled Londoner)
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Message 6 - I have always thought that would be a very sensible idea. Like minded individuals could then belt the hell out of each other to their hearts content and not involve anybody who didn't want to join in with their 'fun'.
One provisio - they should have to pay for any hospital treatment required after they have had their 'jollies'.
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Jimmy Dean -
What I probably meant was that the scale of football violence that we had in the 70's and 80's hasn't returned. I go week in week out and I am fully aware that there are firms across the UK that are still active, but in the main the level of violence is sporadic and small scale. More police, CCTV, banning orders and all seater stadia have controlled the level of violence and will keep it under control. It's the over reaction that annoys me and how the media blow it out of proportion.
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Of course it hasn't gone away! It's not as bad inside the ground(s) as it used to be but as your caller John from Tooting pointed out; certain fixtures attract certain types and violent confrontation is organised beforehand - where and when etc.
I thought you were being incredibly naive Shelagh when you asked why John (who doesn't get involved but goes to away games) doesn't ask those involved to stop.
"Oh I say chaps - would you mind awfully not banging six bells out of each other after the game? Thanks awfully".
We're not talking about the Corporate Hedge Fund manager fans here who have only been recently attracted to football and don't understand the culture.
I go regularly to Stamford Bridge and personally have never witnessed any trouble either inside or directly outside the ground. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean it doesn't happen because it does and especially with certain teams (West Ham particularly and Spurs).
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I used to be a big fan of football, and West Ham in particular, but I've been rapidly going off it.
I don't go to matches any more as the language is revolting. I will never take my child.
Last night was an utter, utter embarrassment. I was listening to it on Five Live. I said to my wife "I bet when I see the images, there'll be some fat cretin, shaved head, loads of tattoos, and no shirt..."
I see the pictures this morning, and there he was. Pathetic. Millwall fans are simply nasty, but there were so many Hammers who were just as bad.
I'd also make it much, much harder to get a season, or even just a day ticket.
The hooligan demographic is so narrow, that I'd refuse a ticket if you're over a certain weight, have a tattoo, or don't have enough hair... Then you'd clear up nearly all of the trouble overnight!
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seanbeanstattoo it may have been taken away from the grounds but it sure has not dissapeared purly because of the cctv cameras but it happens all over town centres and citys away from the stadiums we should have dealt with it by giveing lifetime bans and prison sentences thats why these animals cause trouble on a regular basis what is even more amazeing is they travel with england to international games
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What a complete overreaction...
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Jimmy Dean - I know because I watch England home and away. Those that have been banned do not get legitimate tickets though, they travel and pick up tickets out there. There is very little police can do, apart from checking passports at every UK airport (which they do for major tournaments). You rarely get trouble at England games anymore because of this
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I agree with Jack Ittin. Media sensationalism and a complete overreaction. In no way do I condone last nights events, but 20 years ago this fixture would of been much worse and would have attracted little attention. I have watched football both home and abroad for decades and believe me, the authorities in the UK have done an excellent job in minimising violence involving English fans. How can this jeopardise the world cup in 2018 when Poland is co-hosting the next European Championship and have at the moment a far worse problem? Our media is doing the most damage by overreacting in this way.
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First off this is the only time i ve ever bothered to comment on anything via the web but what happened last night at Upton Park has actually made me take the time to post this.
I ve been a West Ham fan for 30 years and spent years sitting in the Lower Bobby Moore,come snow or sun,watching players from Dicks to Di Canio to Devonshire and Ward so I know a bit about what I m saying. If what happened last night has honestly come as a suprise to anyone reading this then your head has been in the sand. Over the last few years films such as Football Factory, Greenstreet etc have made millions on promoting and glamourising football violence in the UK. Last night was a fixture that many "OLD Style" West Ham and Millwall boys have been waiting for but the numbers were swelled by the "Football Factory" generation who saw an oppotunity to get involved and earn some kudos on the streets. If you actually watch some footage you ll hear the majority of West Ham fans booing the people who invavded the pitch but this won t be focused on by the media, it will be drowned out by what went on outside the ground. I don t agree with what happened but I m not suprised and if people want this type of scene eradicated from the game for good then lets stop making films,documentaries etc about it!! Also i would like to ask if any of the SKY pundits have ever seen Football Factory?? They certainly had enough to say on West Ham last night but then nothing changes there.
I m off my soap box now........
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Richard:
Football violence never went away...It was simply reduce with anti-social behaviour rules and guidances....
=Dennis Junior=
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It never went away, are we kidding ourselves ? This sport has just reached unbelievable proportions in this country, we can't control ourselves under its grip. The media doesn't help either...too much sensationalism.
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Of course, it would be fair to say we shouldn't let this get in the way of professional footbal.
Austin C.
http://www.austin-computer-repair.net/
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Much of the violence witnessed today at football grounds is a type of racism fuelled by xenophobia. Instead of nationalism or inter ethnic rivalries being involved some people are so apathetic and disillusioned with politics and their economic prospects they come to regard their football club as their country and what ws witnessed at West Ham last night in many ways exemplifies this!
This is why so much money has been put into the beloved games over the last few years and why some clubs can knock up astronomical debts like Man Utd yet are still allowed to carry on as businesses. The more some people are besotted by the game the more will it keep them out of real politics and therefore less of a threat to the system!
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