Do we love the NHS?
The NHS was set up more than 60 years ago, and it's no exaggeration to say it revolutionised the way healthcare is delivered. It was said to be the envy of the world, and become Europe's biggest employer.
But now it's come under attack from the US. Campaigners opposed to President Obama's healthcare plans have called it 'evil' and 'orwellian', and a Tory MEP even went on US TV to add his criticisms, before getting told off by his own party.
People are posting on Twitter to say #welovethenhs to lend their support - it also attracted messages from Gordon and Sarah Brown.
So, do you love the NHS? It's our phone-in at 9. You can text us on 85058 or email breakfast@bbc.co.uk.
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Why do Americans believe that Brits have no health choices? We can all choose private treatment and health insurance. Some people can't afford it, but neither can many Americans afford their co-pay even when they have work health plans.
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The NHS is far from perfect but it is there and it saves lives. I would have died years ago if it wasn't for the health service.
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The NHS saved my Father’s Life when he had a heart attack, and treated my Mother’s breast cancer. It delivered my two daughters safely – one of them at home when labour came suddenly and very quickly. Within an hour of calling her midwife, she had two midwives and an ambulance team tending to her. When my daughter had her first (and so far only) anaphylactic reaction to nuts, we raced her to the GP surgery and she was seen in minutes, bypassing the waiting room of people with appointments for less immediately urgent concerns.
It has given my Father-in-Law the chance to see his children marry and have their own children. He was made redundant in his 50’s, and would not have been able to afford the insurance, let alone pay for the heart bypass operations and years of subsequent treatment. He's now 78.
Treatment is free at the point of use, and determined on clinical need. Not income, whether your company policy is a good one, if you made a mistake on your form. It’s simple: are you ill? Can we make you better?
There's an excellent blog written by an American woman's experience of the NHS here. I recommend it. http://snipurl.com/pt0lb
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Prevention is better than cure
One aspect of the work that is done by the NHS that appears to have been overlooked in this debate is the the preventative work done by the NHS. At local level my surgery promotes health walks, runs smoking cessation clinics, provides support within the community for those with mental issues, etc.......at a national level the NHS provides information on swine flu, promotes healthy eating, supplies information on STDs etc
I would have thought that it would not be in the commercial intersets of a private healthcare provider to promote public health
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The UK is not only the only country in Europe that has a state paid health care system, most European countries have their equivalents.
I moved from England to Sweden some 20-years ago, a country considered to have the best social welfare system in the world. However, Sweden's NHS is not any better than the UK's.
The only reason that certain politicians in the US are attacking the UK's health care system, is that Barak Obama decided to model theirs on the UK's, which is considerd to be the best.
If he had chosen another country as a model, then these same US politicians would be directing their verbal abuse at them.
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I think there is something in what Brian from Manchester says. If there was a small charge, perhaps some would be less inclined to waste NHS time and resourses.It does raise the issue, however, that those who work and just manage to get by might not go when they really should. However, where i take issue with him is that he only wants to charge those of us that contribute and not those on benefits. If someone on benefits is in hospital, they to have no expenses to cover and therefore, where practical, any benefits received during that time should go straight to the hospital. I am not talking about housing benefit and such like, i am talking about the bit that pays for the day to day stuff that LONG TERM and feckless benefit claiments, such as booze and gambling.
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People need to get past "The NHS saved my life they are brilliant" At the end of the day that is what they are there for. If they weren't helping people what would it be there for?
The reason people in the US don't want government running their health care system is that they believe governments are incompetent. I think they are correct, the private sector would do a much better job of health care than the government.
17% of public spending goes to the NHS. Let me keep 17% of my earnings and I will sort out my own healthcare and have money to spare. What about people who aren't working? Taxes of corporate profits will more than take care of that
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Whilst overall I think the NHS is brilliant (they have taken very good care of my Grandma and various other family members) the one thing I really don't appreciate/particularly understand is the extortionate dental fees we still have to pay. Perhaps it is my perspective on this (ie. I don't earn that much) but when you have to pay nearly £50 a time for a tiny filling, that is a lot of money. Where exactly are all our taxes going if this simple treatment is still so expensive? Every time I turn up for a checkup, the receptionist asks me if I'm on any benefits - and quite frankly I wish I could say yes! I appreciate that this kind of treatment should not necessarily be free, but I do think the prices they charge are too high.
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Re 7
Typical selfish "I'm alright Jack" attitude that is the reason why we have the NHS in the first place. If someone is earning £12k, the 17% of their earnings would be about two grand - not enough for an operation or expensive medication. If they get sick, they're screwed.
And if people on low incomes are screwed, who's going to empty your bins, or stock the shelves of your supermarket, or deliver the medical supplies to the hospitals?
If we ignore all of those on low earnings just because you're ok, then the country just wouldn't work anymore.
Fool.
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Also, to add to that - how come people in Wales and Scotland get free prescriptions?
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This is 5-Live's usual topical subject for debate, but unfortunately, its been hijacked by rabid and naive left wing types, who always seem to emerge for such occasions. The comments about not trusting David Cameron are irrelevant to the discussion and are the cheapest of shots, though entirely predictable. For goodness sake, the man's recently-deceased eldest son was cared for by the NHS throughout his short life, why on earth would Cameron have anything other than profound gratitude for the NHS and wish to support it fully? In fact, as someone who has been on the working end of the NHS in the worst-possible circumstances, he has every genuine reason in the world to be emotional about it and support it fully, rather than one individual who rather got rather carried away and bizarrely, seemed more intent on telling the world he carried Michael Foot's shopping...
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The NHS is simply a nationalised health company - fair and square. Yesm they do perform miracles every day - but so do every other health system in the world.
My bugbear about the NHS is the superior attitude of the receptionists, and some (not all) others. A culture of 'we are untouchable' has bred into the system. Although abuse againsta staff is wrong, and must not be tolerated the signs and culture behind this is used to surpress any dissent against the machine. If you complain when you need something, then you are branded as abusive. If you wait to complain through the 'proper procedure' it is pointless as the problem has passed - and anyway you dont want to get the staff in trouble, just get something done.
The NHS may be good at what it does, but it is not perfect and does need some thinking and work on it.
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Re 9
First of all I made an error in my first comment, I meant 19% of the taxes paid go towards health care
You make a valid point about people on low earnings. If there is no NHS then health insurance is the only financially viable option. What would happen to people who couldn’t afford health insurance? This I don't have an answer to but I accept it does need an answer.
The "Fool" comment is uncalled for. Is this not an open discussion where people are free to voice their opinions?
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I love the NHS, it is fantastic. I am disgusted by what I've heard coming out of America from some either ill informed or outright manipulative and canniving republican supporters. We are incredibly lucky that when we are ill we can go to the doctor or hospital without having to worry about the cost or the effect on our insurance premiums. I expect the 50 million americans who are not insured wish they had an NHS. The horror stories coming through on places like fox news are one off cases where there have been problems. I expect if we were to look hard enough we could find 50 million stories about how the american system has let them down.
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One caller on the 'heavily moderated' Richard Bacon phone in yesterday said that the NHS is the 'last bastion of socialism! Typically Bacon (under orders?) regarded that as the pivotal issue and ran the ensuing debate on that perspective hence obviously missing the key point!
There has never been socialism in the UK, just like there was never socialism in the former USSR! Indeed it was the capitalist ruling class who required a publicly funded NHS after the war because it was the only feasible means to maintain and protect the health of workers whose exploitable labour power was required to make profits! It was just opportune for them that it was a Labour government speaheaded by Nye Bevan that implemented it whereby afterwards the capitalist right could maintain it was a big Labour 'socialist' idea especially when it encountered problems like today!
This row over the NHS or from the Republican right in the USA solely stems from the crisis of the profit system and the global debt ridden chaos it has created. The US Republican's (and no doubt many Tories here, underneath all the banter) say a publicly funded health system is evil just because it conflicts with their exhausted ideals of free enterprise and markets! Yet do they say likewise that a publicly funded defence forces and nuclear arms to fight for US imperialist strategic interests is evil? Do they say that the US capitalist system bailed out by $trillions is evil?
Hyprocrisy of the highest order!
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People can join the debate on Twitter and even add 'I love the NHS' straplines to their profile pictures.
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Re 9.
Technically, if 50% of the population could suddenly not afford something then the effect would be to drastically increase supply - and the price would come down to a level that would balance supply and demand (I am aware how this is most definatly inappropriate for health provistion though). This is simply an example of how the country would not grind to a halt and keep on working.
I do agree though that the people who empty bins, drive lorries with food, and even sweep up at MacDonalds are just as key to this country as nurses and doctors. We need to get a balance right, but as in the USA these workers are not dying in the street, or in Casualty. They are living to a ripe old age and the Americans biggest gripe is that they want to keep control of their own health provision, not the government - and personally I cant argue with that.
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I have a very big issue with the entire debate about pro and contra the NHS, as all argument within the restrictions of their traditional systems and neither see that not all is black or white, but there's something in the middle.
I was always pro the NHS until I needed it in the beginning of this year. I have to say, that I was not treated to my needs and I was left waiting with a potential serious infection for hours without anybody ahead of me. So it can happen in this country too... Unlike someone on the phone-in stated.
I'm by now prepeared to pay for private care, but had to find that there is not really such a system over here. The NHS does prevent such a system to develop. So, people who talk about private health care here, have mostly not experienced a truly private system, and don't know the benefits of it.
One of the real negative things in the NHS is that you cannot choose your doctor at all. This would bring in some kind of performance messure, which would help greatly to inprove services. I came across some good staff, but they are drowned by many with a no care attitute, which is a shame.
I experienced the health system in Germany for a long time. This is a system where every one has insurance, every employer has to contribute. But there is a privat insurance system alongside it and all doctors work private (and are the paid either by state insurance or private insurance). Over there is a big discussion that people being insured by the state are treated 2nd class. I never experienced this. I always had top class service, which I was missing here entirely. I was shocked by the state of the health service in the UK instead.
The better quality in the German system might be grounded in the fact that I can choose my doctor and hospital and people go elsewhere if they don't like it. Many things I took as a stardard, I'm missing here. In Germany I could "upgrade", meaning the state health insurance would pay to their limit (what it would cost if I take what they'd provide) and the extras I liked I could then pay on top. In the UK this is not possible. Here I can only choose between NHS or entirely private service, which makes it unaffordable for most.
The US-system needs a reform to cover all those who do not have any access to health care. The UK-system needs a reform so that there is real competition between trusts and the development of a really private system and private healthinsurances would be really good for all of us, as it would set the general standard much higher than it currently is. I do not mean BUPA etc, as this is only the same as the NHS, just that you're treated sooner.
But I do not see any politician having the confidence to really change the entire system as they'll probably not get elected again afterwards. People do not honor change...
As my treatment is ongoing and I do not like to subject myself to the NHS any longer nor can I pay entirely private healthcare, I do currently try to go back to Germany.
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I love the NHS!
I’m an American and have been living in the UK for the past 15 years (UK husband). The main disincentive for us returning to the States is the lack of decent, affordable health care.
When my mother was terminally ill with cancer she had to be airlifted from one hospital to another to get a necessary treatment when her blood electrolyte levels dropped dangerously low. Her insurer then contested the charge saying they felt it was unnecessary. In addition to caring for my mother, my step-father had to enter into a prolonged battle with the insurers over a $65,000 airlift bill. My mother had excellent insurance having been employed by the federal government for over 25 years.
A friend suffered a miscarriage and began haemorrhaging. Although she was a full time teacher with insurance, her coverage specified that she could only be treated by certain doctors on the insurers’ “preferred provider” list. None of these doctors were available. She was turned away from one hospital after another, being driven around by her panicked husband in the middle of the night until she’d lost so much blood that she had to be admitted to Emergency. It took them years to pay off the bill. They had insurance.
Your earlier caller who mentioned town-wide fundraising for a seriously ill child – this is the norm in the States. Drive around a bit. You can find it happening in every state and county. Grim stuff. Average people with everyday jobs – teachers, office workers, service industries – don’t have access to the top-notch level of health insurance that is necessary to provide standard of care provided by the NHS. This is especially true for the self-employed, and for part-time workers who will not have the option of insurance through their employer.
To put this in perspective: my sister and brother-in-law are both new university lecturers, having just finished their degrees. They are starting their new jobs in September but as their student status ended in May with graduation, they have no insurance. They have bought temporary insurance to cover their two young children for the three months before their new jobs start. This is costing them $650 a month for the most basic insurance. This covers only their children – not the adults. Full coverage for the family would cost almost $3000 a month. They are forced to gamble with their health and their young family’s security.
When I lived in America I always had health insurance through my employers, but even so I had to pay for appointments and most treatments. This is the norm. My policy (which was a good one) had an excess of $250 per condition. So if you feel ill, you don’t go to the doctor – you immediately are charged $100-$200 for your appointment, and then the fees for drugs. Instead, you wait to see if you get better. Situations like this result in people being hospitalised for illnesses that could be easily treated before they get serious.
This is the reality for millions of Americans – hard-working, skilled people with good jobs. And constant concerns over what will happen financially if they get ill. How easy do you suppose it is for average people to change jobs when they have a pre-existing medical condition?
Health care and insurance is big business in America. Huge profits are made off the misery and desperation of people who are made vulnerable through illness. These businesses look to countries like the UK with nationalised health care and see untapped cash cows. They have a vested interest in trying to undermine confidence in the NHS. Think of the potential profits for them!
Sorry for going on for so long. You have an excellent, humane system of health care that you should be enormously proud off. Support it and improve it – don’t let people chip away at it. Long live the NHS!
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The man that spoke about his meeting up with Michael Foot, said it all? his description of how and why the National Health Service came into being, was superb. I just hope many Americans have read or listened to it! Talking of which...
My father used to go and work in America when Ellis Island was the firstport of call. He used to describe of how the European immigrants on the lower decks would get down onto their knees as the ship sailed up the Hudson river. Most had left nations that controlled their lives. Two nations, different experiences. WWW. Wonderful " " NHS. Majority..here, say...Yes!
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Have had 3 major life saving heart sugeries at the Royal Brompton NHS Trust hospital during the last 28 years and I can tell you for sure that there is no amount of money that can buy the level of service I received from any private healthcare provider. I have been lucky to have been operated by 3 of the best surgons in the world and I am not sure if I could have had these surgons if I was treated privately.
Whoever knocks the NHS have no clue what it represents and what it does. They need their heads examined.
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I lived in the US for 6 years. Had a baby at the same time as my husband changed jobs. As the company was small and the med insurance was paid through the company we had to change providers. My baby was unwell and needed tests. The new insurance company decided he was too high a risk and refused to insure him. It was terrifying and I will always remember the feeling of incomprehension when the woman at the other end of the phone was telling me my baby wasn't worth insuring. Needless to say we moved back to the UK soon after and I have never been so glad to have the NHS. My son is now 13 and fine!
Georgina
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The irony of the unhealthiest nation on the planet (cf. L Theroux Crystal meth), criticising our health system is not without irony ... doh they don't do that either do they?
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Mostermax22
I've read the contributions to the debate on this page, and the majority of contributors are broadly supportive of National Health Service. I suspect that many of these people are neither rabid, naive or particular left wing. There may be differences regarding the detail but most people in my experience support the basic founding principals of the NHS.
I welcome David Cameron's personal commitment to the NHS, however, I believe that he is the first leader of the Conservative Party to make such a commitment. Furthermore, he is the leader of a political party where a number of members and representatives do not appear to share the commitment of their leader to the NHS.....eg Danial Hannan, John Redwood
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The American propaganda m/c is on the prowl, don't believe all you hear. Don't be taken in by the histrionic conservatives. In general our NHS gives us good health care, and we have a choice to go private if we wish.
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Yes, as Sydcharles says we DO have choice - we can take out private health care insurance if we wish. Interestingly you will find the sicker and older you get the more unaffordable the premiums will become (because like all insurance companies, they're in it for the profit) - I should imagine it's similar in the US. An old friend who used private health care most her life spent the last few years of her life using the NHS for that reason - and she was surprised to find it every bit as good as private, what would she have done in the US I wonder.
Sarah Palin really annoys me when she uses her own Downs syndrome child to mislead - by implying he would be judged by a 'Death Panel' and not given care judged on 'level of productivity in society'. While this may have happened historically in the NHS it certainly does not happen now and it is pure wanton mischief to suggest otherwise. The irony is that a Downs syndrome person would probably get most benefit from a free at source health care system.
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