Would the world be a better place without religion?
An atheist summer camp gets underway today near Bath - they're already a popular type of holiday in America. The children will get lessons on evolution and they'll get to sing John Lennon's Imagine.
So is atheism the answer to the world's problems? If we got rid of religion, would we get rid of most wars and prejudice? Or would we just find something else to argue about?
Do we all need something to believe in? Whether it's a god, a set of principles, a celebrity - does having a beliefs comfort us, or would we be better off just relying on ourselves?
That's the phone in, with Nicky, from 9am.
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Religion has killed millions of people throughout the ages. It has caused problems of over population, disease and war. The world would be a lot better off without any religions.
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I would consider myself as a non-practising Christian. However, I would not indoctrinate others with my views as tends to happen with many others. Religion, I believe, was a way to introdce harmony amoungst the populace and the way to live a life respecting other people. It matters not that an aethiast camp is set up as I bet some of those attending are of a covert religious group in any case. We could do without religion, as the origins of life have been proved by many scientists and religious ideals were created to explain to the illiterate the origins of life in a simplified way. However, there are many religious groups who actively consider killing and maiming others as part of their 'religion'. These people are, of course, not religious but cold-blooded killers with one object in mind to scare the daylights out of the rest of the population.
There are many who are comforted by religion and that should be allowed to happen as their personal choice, without the need for derision or critiscm from those around them. ie we should all be free to do what we want, when we want and how we want within the law and others should accept it without question.
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The First question we need to ask is what religion really is. Is it a set of rules to get us to Heaven. This may be the case with some religions but Christianity claims "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9 NKJV).
Christianity is about the love of God in sending his son to die on the cross. Why is this loving? Because "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," (Romans 3:23) and "For the wages of sin is death." (Romans 6:23). So in other words we all deserve death and Hell. Who has kept even the ten Commandments? Who has not even murdered under Jesus' definition in Matthew 5:
"You have heard that it was said to those of old, You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgement. But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgement."
So what is to be done about this? Jesus Christ Died to pay the price for our sin. He couldn't "Just forgive" as then he would not be just. This means that Heaven is free. Anyone can go. All they must do is trust in Jesus' death. Anyone who thinks every one is going to heaven without this is saying that people go to Heaven despite firmly believing that Jesus' death was not enough.
So it all really seems too good to be true. If we treat the Bible as any other historical document we find that there is far more evidence for the death AND resurrection of Jesus than that Julius Caesar ever came to Britain. The documents were written within decades of the events and not centuries and the copies we have are more accurate than any other historical document.
What's more before anyone claims that Christianity is inconsistent With Science, I, as a Christian who is soon to study Maths at University, find no such inconsistencies. I see many problems with Evolution that are often glossed over. For example, I see no valid mechanism for the formation of pre-organic matter such as the components of the first cell as natural selection cannot operate on non-living matter due to the lack of reproduction. Also I see no way for natural selection or random mutations to create new genetic information in order to move from an amoeba to a man in macro-evolution.
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I take exception to the words "the children".
Evolution is to be taught? Ok! But only evolution?
The curriculum described sounds more like indoctrination to my untutored ears. But maybe that is me.
Well it works in both religious and athiest households. At what point do we decide for any children we have (I have none) that they too will believe or not believe something?
I remain a sceptic of this type of camp here in Britain.
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PDunning, by your own admission, you are a mathematician, not a biologist, so your inability to be able to conceive of a mechanism for evolution and natural selection to work is only evidence of your short-comings. Can I suggest you try reading some books on the subject beyond those written by apologists.
I'm surprise you see no inconsistency between Christianity, a religion, and "science" which is a process. That's a bit like saying I see no inconsistency between architecture and tap dancing: they are two completely different things which have nothing in common, which makes me think you've said this to frame your later comments.
The big problem I think you have with evolution is that you don't actually know anything about it. For instance you say "I see no way for natural selection...to create new genetic information" Well, that's because it doesn't, and I don't know of anyone who says it does apart from you.
Please go away, find out about evolution PROPERLY from people who actually know about it, then consider it.
Beyond that, evolution and god are two separate things. Evidence of one is not proof of the existence/non-existence of the other, and atheism is not about evolution, it is about not accepting the existence of a god (any god) just because someone says so. Any atheist will gladly and willingly accept the existence of your god if you can prove it. Firstly define what your god is, and then show the evidence to support your claim. Most believers fall at the first hurdle as their interpretation of god is a hodge-podge of bits from the bible, bits from the telly and bits they made up.
It is as if every believer has their own god who is different to everybody else's, like their own invisible friend, and get two believers together and I bet they won't agree on who god is entirely.
Just accept the fact that this is a camp-fire story made up by goat farmers 4,000 years ago. It's a fairytale, now move on with your life.
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I dont believe. That is I think I dont believe.
In the absence of proof I dont believe.
Whatever, non-believers who go on about it and make an issue of it are just as bad as any religious type.
If there is a god and he looked down on the world religions he'd probably say, " What the heck are that lot of diddies up to?"
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zeospike by "I see no way" I mean no one has ever told me of any way of this happening. That is despite me asking people who should know. So I will ask you. What is the mechanism for the generation of new biological information? Also What is the mechanism to create molecular machines of many parts - in which all parts must exist for the machine to operate. What is the mechanism for attaching the various polypeptides into DNA and the other parts of the cell?
Your complaint about my statement is invalid as many people such as Richard Dawkins do see a problem here while many other people see religion and science as complementing each other. Both have something to say about questions like: Are we really special or are we clever animals?
My God is the God of the Bible, nothing more, nothing less. This means he is:
"God, who made the world and everything in it" (Acts 17:24)
"The LORD, the LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the childrens children to the third and the fourth generation." (Exodus 34:6-7)
"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.'" (John 14:6)
"Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. Then last of all He was seen by me also" (1 Corintians 15:3-8)
This tells us That Christ died and rose and gives a list of eyewitnesses. The account was written as is stated before most witnesses had died, so that the first readers could question them. Had these events not happened, the apostles would have been ignored and laughed at.
Luke's Gospel and Acts in particular also details a lot of things like the titles of various Roman rulers and so on that he could only easily know by being there around at the time.
There is also a lot of evidence from other sources. For example Josephus and Tacitus both refer to Jesus.
If this is all a fairy tale, then why is it that to this day Christians are prepared to be murdered for their beliefs? Why is it that so many people's lives have been changed because of the God of the Bible? Why is it that Christianity grew so rapidly under such oppression during the early years?
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Voltaire said : "If God didn't exist, we would haveto invent Him"... and that is what we have all done. In most cases, man has created God in his own image. I have created my god who is often referred to as a female : Mother Nature. Whether my god is an overwhelmingly elaborate accident or part of some great plan by a greater being, I really have no idea. What I do know is that by celebrating the mysteries, beauty and "miracles" of nature, I get as close as I can imagine to total peace. If the traditional concept of Heaven does not exist then my outlook will not have been wasted; if Heaven does exist, then surely by attempting to live in harmony with fellow living things ("God's creatures" ?) then i cannot fall too far short of reaching it after my death. I used to be a practising Christian. Then a 1971 sermon, not on the bible but on the economic justification for closing my then church, St Luke's in Battersea turned me off. Add that to Catholic-Protestant battles, "crusades" against Islam, the radical Jihad-style of some followers of Islam, the terrorism Zionists inflict on Palestinian women and children - I can do without organised religion !
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The exercise that the Atheist Camp asks the children to do ('Invisible Unicorns') is indoctrination of the highest order. It's implications are false.
Anyway:
I have never seen any person change their lives around from violent robber/drug addict/theif/ to servant simply because they have 'discovered' there is no God. I have seen many a person do so because they have discovered redemption in Jesus Christ.
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Yes it very difficult to understand that their is a god or comprihend the fact. As a Sikh trying to do this very thing i would say that wothout investing emitionaly in the idea, an idea that deos not apear to have a tangiable personable gain that can be measured or even felt as you do when you for example giving charity or helping someone, it is easy to see in todays society of 'knowlege is power'that people will move away from beleiving in God. As a Sikh our history over the last 500years, my Gurus have proven to me that their is a God like Energy that exists and is in every person of any Religion and that the Interlect that we hold in such high regard is given to us by God in order that we use it to yes improve our lives and that of the less fortunately but also to Recognise that God exists Remember Him/it/her so that our souls may be liberated from the cycle of life and ultimately Death.The Sikh Gurus lived this mortal life and proved to me through their actions and sacrfices, of the Truth in their message.
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Definitely! Nothing divides us quite like religion does, because a person's allegiance will, ultimately, always be to their god and what they believe he/she/it wants of them.
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# 2 zeldalicious has it that : Religion has killed millions of people throughout the ages So WWII was a war between the Buddhist Hitler and the Hindu Churchill ? Stalin was a Muslim, Napoleon a Sikh fighting the Scientologist Spanish ? The 600 hundred abortions a day in the UK are a human sacrifice to what god ? Its no competition atheists out blood theists 100 to 1
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Faeryes & elves & gods & saints & gremlins & bogeymen & angels & angel dust & magic & miracles... Mumbo-jumbo.
We're just a bigger version of our 5-year-old kids, aren't we?
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Glenisdevereux: I'm not sure what the score is in terms of the people dying in theist/atheist conflicts. However many of the conflicts of my lifetime have a religious dimension to them: Northern Ireland, Sri Lankan Civil War, Six Day War, Afghanistan, Bosnia, Iraq, Darfur, ........I'm struggling to think of a war that didn't have a religious dimension
The terrorists that carry out acts of destruction, such as the attacks on the World Trade Center towers, claim that there actions are part of a jihad. George Bush on the eve on the eve of the invaision of Iraq announces that we undertaking a crusade against against terrorism. The words jihad and crusade are words that originate in the middle ages are currently used
I agree with you when you make the point that you make about Hitler, Churchill and Stalin. However, Pope Pius XII was aware of the atrocities that were being carried out by the Nazi's yet maintained a public front of indifference and remained silent.
I acknowledge that many of those at forefront of the peace movement and many who have campaigned against injustice are people of strong religious faith.
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"I'm struggling to think of a war that didn't have a religious dimension" Let me help : WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Falklands, Napoleonic wars, Iran Vs Iraq, Crimean war, Russia Revolution, Stalin's Purges, Mao's Purges, Tiananmen Square, the Opium wars, the 100 years war, William the conqueror, Genghis Khan ! What proportion of convicted murderers are devout church going 7th day Adventists ?
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Sorry. I didn't mention wars. I said religion.
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zeldalicious Wrote : "I'm struggling to think of a war that didn't have a religious dimension" then #19 'Sorry. I didn't mention wars. I said religion' so it now reads I'm struggling to think of a religion that didn't have a religious dimension" - well there's a tautology I can't argue with ! But it doesn't answer my basic point which is - it's an easy line 'religion is the cause of all wars' - that's basically what you said in your first post. Back in the newspaper days before the internet, should lines were popular as the letters to the Editor page to complain about them only showed the letters the editor wanted printed but now in the internet age you can't get away with such nonsense, by a country mile non-religious wars and non-religious murders out number their religious counter parts.
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Errr... No I didn't I have never mentioned Wars!
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I think you ae getting my post confused with someone else.
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yes it is religion that devides us because it is man made and can be manipulated by man as all man made things are, however if we were to abide by the message in the 'religion' it would be to unite us and accept differences and the diversity that the 1 universal god without religion or aleagances to any particular so called relgion. The tag of religion fills our own egos but the message of god as i try to understand it is to break away from these egos. Spiritual knowlege is not the same as interlect and those who feel themselves as intelctuals will always find it dificult to accept something that they can not prove phisically.
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#22 Errr... No I didn't I have never mentioned Wars!
but #2 zeldalicious wrote:
'Religion has killed millions of people throughout the ages. It has caused problems of over population, disease and war.'- I can see the word 'war' in there and this is what I was responding to. If you want to change your mind : 'Oh I didn't think about it like that, then that's OK - that's what debate is for.
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24. Yes I did use the world war in my first post and I apologise for that but then you used somebody else's quote and attributed it to me which confused me. I still stand by the fact that religion has caused millions of death over the millenia. Obviously not every war is caused by religion but religion has been responsible for horrific and unecessary suffering and continues to do so.
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#25 zeldalicious wrote 'I still stand by the fact that religion has caused millions of death over the millennia.' Well apologies for mixing up a quote from another poster but we are in public debate and you can't, with any credibility, stand by a so called fact without providing some evidence to back up this fact. As it stands the wars listed by myself that have caused the most death in history have been non-religious wars. Abortion - which would be called evil barbaric human sacrifice if the Taliban did it and we didnt, wipes out 600 kids a day in the UK and 3000 a day in the USA - all non-religious deliberate killings - atheistic killings indeed.
Take a school, who are the violent bullies - the church going kids ? or the atheists ?
Take a world leader : if Hitler, Mao, Idi Amin, Stalin had a Christian conscience and feared their soul to be in danger of eternal hell fire for their acts of evil, would we have had the problems we did with these characters If you want to stand by your so called fact then start by demonstrating it with a list that shows the millions killed by religion you claim and compare it to a list of those killed in a non-religious way. I reckon, the fact youll then see is that Atheists out blood theists 100 to 1 at least.
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Glenisdevereaux.....in my earlier post i stated that i strugggled to think of a war that occured in my lifetime......I was born in 1962 and therefore many of the wars you list did not occur during my lifetime. Since end of the cold war a significant proportion of conflicts have a religious dimension
Ive got no idea whether or not the violent bullies in schools are atheists, seventh day adeventists, or buddists. However, I have read the report by the Irish government following a nine year investigation into the behaviour of nuns and priests in Irish workhouse type schools. Over decades they terrorised and raped thousands of children
George W Bush, General Franco, General Pinochet, Hendrik Verwoerd all claimed to have a christian conscience and all committed acts of evil.
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" in my earlier post i stated that i strugggled to think of a war that occured in my lifetime......" - don't think Google ! Born in 62 Korea had just ended, Vietnam was just starting, Iran - Iraq was yet to come as was the Falklands...
!Since end of the cold war a significant proportion of conflicts have a religious dimension" - name them ! then ask someone who does not find the act of thinkng a stuggle (just a tease on you struggling line) to say if they think it was really religion or really oil/land/post cold war power grabbing that was the real cause. As for the Irish situation the Catholic Church has religious prohibitions against raping kids so where you had bad priests you had devoute ones acting as against this. Whereas in athiest childrens's homes - Isle of White comes to mind and there are more - lots more there is no ingrained force for good. I've heard stories about local authority care homes in the UK that are far worse then anything that happened in Ireland. These are yet yet be investigated and as the local authorities in the UK are more powerful than the Catholic Church in Irelnad they probably won't be.
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Gaza, Lebanon, Bosnia, Kosova, East Timor, Burma, Northern Ireland, Sri Lanka, Darfur, Chetnya, Al Qaida's war of terror, Afghanisation........and I managed all that without the aid of google
The causes of most wars are very complex and I haven't disputed your point that there are other factors. I initially stated that there there is a religious dimension to many of the wars that have occurred in my lifetime and that terms such as crusade and jihad are used to justify beligerent actions.
With regard to the abuse of children in Irish I suggest that you read a summary of the Ryan Report, where you will discover that "good" priests chose to remain silent when made aware of the widespread abuse.
You state that you have heard specific stories about child abuse in "atheist" run children's homes you have an obligation to inform the police and they are required to investigate the matter
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Re "you have an obligation to inform the police and they are required to investigate the matter" - Wake up and Grow up ! According to the Schools Standards and Framework Act 98, Head Teachers and governors are legally obliged 'prevent all forms of bullying' - despite the average high street solicitor and the CAB having loads of bullying cases to deal with, despite it being Lord of the Flies every break time in unsupervised break times up and down the country,I've never heard of one Head Teacher or Governor being prosecuted for allowing bullying in their School - The Local Education Authorities make sure of it. Go report them to the police ! - I've tried - 'Oh we don't prosecute these sorts of people' you have to use their own tribunals where they let themselves off'. What happened in Religious institutions in Ireland was evil. What happens here is worse.
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re Gaza, Lebanon, Bosnia, Kosovo, East Timor, Burma, Northern Ireland, Sri Lanka, Darfur and Chechnya
There are, each year, an atheistic : 55,000 murders in Brazil, 30,000 murders in Russia, 25,000 murders in Colombia, 20,000 murders in South Africa, 17,000 murders in the United States (666,160 murders from 1960 to 1996), 15,000 murders in Mexico, 11,000 murders in Venezuela, 6,000 murders in El Salvador and 1,600 murders in little Jamaica. Atheistic Murder is the leading cause of death for African American males aged 15 35. There are 23 Million atheistic abortions in China every year... , 300,000 a year in the UK. Wife beating is a virtually a national sport around the planet - rivers upon rivers of blood and violence every year and not one drop of religion to be seen - had the killers, wife beaters etc gone to church every Sunday things, I would expect would have been different, and better... you think it would be worse ? (the point of the debate) Is Chechnya a religious war ? - looks like more an old fashioned independence war, Darfur is racial mainly, Sri Lanka is tribal, there was not very much to be seen of any recognisable Christian principles in the Northern Ireland issue, Burma is just a miserable tin-pot dictatorship keeping the peasants down, Kosovo was a post cold war land a power grab war - ditto Bosnia. Gaza and Lebanon are very religious, being part of the Israeli situation and East Timor looks very religious, but both these religions - Judaism and Islam are not very 'love thy neighbour' style 'religious' religions and I don't tend to include them under the Religion banner. Judaism has genocide as a religious duty in the Old Testament save non alive that breatheth and Islam has wife beating ordained in the Koran 4:34 for starters.
This leaves my assertion still standing as atheists out-blooding theists 100 to 1 - Im not saying theists are zero but by the standards of most religions those in the 1 and those rapping kids will have a bad day come Judgement day i.e. they are breaking the rules of the religion and might reasonably be called atheistic infiltrators.
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"and Islam has wife beating ordained in the Koran 4:34 for starters."
actually it doesnt. poor translations provide you with a misunderstanding of what is being advocated.
"Gaza and Lebanon are very religious, being part of the Israeli situation and East Timor looks very religious, but both these religions "
gaza and lebanon are about nationalism and land . east timor is about minority rights/land.
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"Al Qaida's war of terror,"
actually it is and always was a reaction against american imperialism, support of despotic regimes and the oppressed peoples. blair sought the hand of history and was prepared to (for others) pay the blood price.
it is easy to fall into the idea of what the govt and media want you to believe as their reality.
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"In the absence of proof I dont believe."
some might say that you are the proof.
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Purvee:
(what I am writing is my own opinion)
Yes, I think the world be a better place without religion....
~Dennis Junior~
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Any social survey today (the type 'they' don't want to report on) will prove that the majority of people who believe there is a 'God' and practice religion are of a right wing traditionalist mould where the political system always works in their favour.
The whole purpose of religion is to control and tailor people's beliefs about the real world that,s compatible with the ideas of the prevailing political establishment!
For example if people can be made to believe there is a God then they can be made to believe in a lot of other things mainstream politicians want them to believe in! For example: the market economy is the only type of economic system mankind can adapt to; that the globe is naturaly divided into oountries or political borders; that you can control terrorism by military intervention and that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction etc etc!
However atheist 'Summer Schools' will serve no purpose just like Gay Pride marches don't. They will be either subject to ridicule by the mainstream corporate press or completely ignored.
We are not born into this world believing there is a God. It has to be impregnated into us and if the masses really controlled society rather than the small minority who do then religion would be regarded as the voice of hypocrites and would naturally peter out of it's own accord!
The only way to promote atheism is to integrate its arguments into wider political discussion rather than having 'Summer Camps' which will no doubt include bungee jumps and car boot stalls! Unfortunately this won't happen as long as only a small minority determine whats heard and said by the majority!
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Forgive me if my brief points have already been made - I don't have time to read the full thread, although what I have seen is of course very interesting and also represents the usual polarised and moderate views which are generally expressed regarding this matter.
We have to take care to at least agree what we mean by 'religion' when entering this debate. The word has a multitude of connotations - perhaps as many definitions as people - perceptions of its meaning often clustered into groups with shared agreements of what-it-means - and as many groups of people agreeing that the other group is wrong.
There's something definitively human about this need to group - and also to 'worship'/ believe/ have faith - and just as much evidence that there is something human about creating the circumstances for war.
We're very good at being suspicious of someone elses perceptions of things/ way of expressing things, and also rather good at being certain that our sufferings can somehow be attributed to those who are clearly 'different'.
We all have complex reasons for our motives and beliefs, and are sometimes so certain that we are right that we will defend our beliefs at significant cost.
I don't know if there's a god, but I suspect that those who believe in him(?)see him everywhere - as real as any evidence the likes of Richard Dawkins can muster. Neither do I feel the need to go and join a group of people who want to celebrate 'no-god'.
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