The REAL Fighting Talk.
You're probably aware of Fighting Talk on 5live - the Saturday morning knock-about where sporting punditry is turned into a war of words.
Well on 16th March - 5live is home to The Real Fighting Talk as we consider the far more serious topic of how we view our Armed forces. An issue which can be one of life and death.
This morning, Nicky and Shelagh spoke first to our correspondent James Shaw, who spent time with the forces in Basra, reporting on the imminent troop withdrawl; and also to Karen Webster, whose son served in Iraq, and who founded the organisation "Support Our Soldiers". Listen back to the interviews below.
Earlier this month, we asked people to fill in a questionnaire about the forces online and this is a sample of some of the views you expressed.
Simon says:
"The Armed Forces should be well equipped and have sufficient resources and equipment to adequately carry out there deployment overseas. This includes having air support especially helicopters and medical facilities and staff to treat our casualties, not simply relying on NHS treatment and staff volunteering to serve in Iraq and Afghanistan. The British Armed Forces are the most professional in the world and have done conducted themselves in some of the toughest fighting since Korea.
Regardless of your political views on Iraq and Afghanistan, the Armed Forces have acted courageously and the country should be proud of those men and women. We should have much more pride in those that serve; and the government should introduce an equivalent to the GI Bill after World War 2. This would offer future educational prospects to ex service personnel and equip them with skills that can be used in the civilian world."
Jimmy says
"I have just left the Navy, fives week ago, after completing 22 years service. Whilst I am proud to have served my country I think that this current government has used and abused our armed forces.
We have been underfunded and ill equiped for years and then sent off to fight an unnecessary war in Iraq and, in my opinion, an unwinnable war in Afghanistan. We cannot afford to continue to act as the world's police force and should only deploy our forces where there is a direct military threat to this country or our close allies.
Although I have stated that I am proud to have served my country and would recommend the forces as a career. I don't think the armed forces are nowadays truly understood, appreciated or respected by the general population in this country, although hopefully this is beginning to change."
Tom says:
"Overstretched, overwhelmed, over there". Our armed forces need to be better funded- it is imperative that we remain a global power and support American forces across the globe. We currently cannot do that as well as we should - the army is stretched to the limit - but they're ready and willing to do the job.
James says
"My son recently Passed Out as an Officer in the Royal Marines and I am so proud of his achievement. However, I was inwardly very relieved that he was not posted to Afghanistan at this time; I have no doubt it that will probably happen in due course. I really felt for one of the other parents at the ceremony as he knew at that stage that his son was being posted to the war zone."
Yorick says:
"After Iraq, we (as a nation & armed forces) need a stop and think period. Yes, we should remain dedicated to Afghanistan, there will still be a demand for our expertise & services around the world and we should not be scared to commit our troops elsewhere, but we need a breather from the demands & stress of the past 6 years.
We should still be open to supporting the Iraqi forces logistically & with training (with the option to return should it all go bad in the South), but I would like to see the forces refreshed (e.g. extended break for those who have done 3+ tours), improved equipment & purchasing with the potential to requesting for forces personnel to help out in infrastructure areas where there are cuts (road, bridges, railways, etc.)
Above all I would like for the Armed Forces to commit to UN peacekeeping missions to improve the expertise, reputation & potential in current tense warzones, especially in Africa."
Nick Haigh is a former Royal Marine. He says:
"Hi, I am ex Royal Marine and still have a lot of friends serving out in Afghan. The armed forces do a magnificent job in all they do and more praise and recognition is needed for service men/women. Although being out in the Middle East we may not see immediate benefits to us back home, every enemy stronghold we take back or control over is doing the whole world a favour. The Taliban etc are fanatics and need to be dealt with.
Without our presence and what has already been carried out in Middle East then I am certain there would have been more terrorist attacks on western lands. Modern warfare is changing and they are driven by hate. This will never be stopped but every time we can stop one stronghold we are helping control this.
My only gripe is that more money should be spent on equipment for soldiers. So I give my full support to the government, all ongoing operations and the safe future of all our people back home and most importantly the soldiers who risk there lives for the sake of us."
Richard has served with the TA and the army. He says:
"Our armed forces are one of the few aspects of British Life today of which we can be truly proud. Well trained, well motivated and superb in both battle and at peacekeeping, they are an example to us all. Sadly they are let down by our government with broken promises, inadequate equipment, poor home accommodation and resources generally. if their lot is not improved we might lose them. They truly serve Queen and Country-and that's all of us."
If you have a view that you would like to express then please comment on this blog post.
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~47~RS~)
Comments
the reality is that many commentators accept our forces failed in basra and are losing in afghanistan regardless of MoD inspired pr through our supine and compliant media.
there are reasons of course for this focus on the forces, one is the falling numbers in recruitment. the other is very much a political issue, an unpopular war that is about to be ratcheted up in the proposed afghan surge (into pakistan).
the government have been running a cleverly constructed propaganda campaign, from prince harry to ross kemp. from MoD inspired documantaries to embedded reporters.
the aim has been to shift the focus away from politicians and their wrong doing to one of being unable to question the rights and wrongs of the war because protest against our forces is now seen to be unpatriotic.
how could our heroes and brave ones be accused of being involved in something that is not 'just' or maybe even 'illegal'?
it is now simply a case of a 'call to duty'.
how very convenient for one and all in the political sphere.
can anyone expect a real debate, with such constraints in place?
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I answered your questionaire and wrote comments which you haven't published above which is quite fair enough!
However its notable that most of the comments you have published are predictably from former or serving members of HMF which is quite understandable because as an ex HMF myself (now 25 years rehabilitaded into civilian life economic and social reality) service personnel in general believe what they're supposed to believe, not because they are gullible or thick but in order to carry out their military duties effectively!
Also there is an obvious contradiction in the way Armed Forces opinion is presented in the media! For example there are few curbs on forces personnel being put on air to complain about troop morale, shoddy equipment or arms spending etc particularly if its indirectly targetted at who the corporate press regard as unpopular politicians! Conversely they are clearly barred from publicly questioning key aspects of foreign policy or the actions or indeed public comments of senior military personnel! So why the double-standard? At the end of the day the forces are just public service workers like Health or Postal workers and should have the same Union rights as the latter and when the 'great and the good' complain that such an outrageous suggestion will threaten military discipline, efficiency and freedom etc then we know exactly whose freedom they are worried about!
Most of the multi-choice questions you set in the questionaire were very cunningly composed to ensure that anyone answering who might object to key aspects of our foreign policy like attacking and occupying countries that weren't attacking us and couldn't fight back were stifled in case they criticised the role of the armed forces!
For example: The question should troop numbers in Afghanistan remain the same or be augmented (or similar words). Where was the third choice answer like should they be withdrawn altogether?
Most people like myself support our Armed Forces. Yet anyone here in the UK who hasn't encountered the effects of any conflict can easily stand on a street corner with a flag and cheer homecoming troops from Iraq and Afghanistan.
The only rational way to support the welfare and morale of our forces is to dispense with such things like stage-managed homecoming parades and all the antagonisms they clearly create but to deal with the politics behind their various deployments of today!
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we should bring our boys and girls home as soon as possible the goverment has duped the people of this country with there lies and spin in fighting illegal wars iraq has been a disaster and so has afghanistan a place where the mighty russians could not defeat the taleban we do not understand the tribal situation there these people know the country inside out and the scary thing is they are warriors who will fight till the very end how are we meant to beat people like that history has taught us nothing nobody can defeat the resistance in afghanistan if we stayed there a hundred years we would still not get past first base all the propaganda where in there to put democracy in the country is totally misguided the only way to make any kind of diffrence in afghanistan is by negotiation through the tribal leaders
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lets be honest the soldiers that sign up to be in the army on the front line are mostly from difficult backgrounds and communities from all over britain exploited for there lack of education and job opportunities with very little life and social skills who should never be in the army how many politicians and middle class people in this country send there kids packed of to go defend and fight illegal wars and invade countries let me tell you very few indeed i do feel this is a great injustice that has gone on and keep on going for a very long time to come these kids no there is no chance of going to university and broadening there horizons and travelling the world with the same aspiration and dreams of the kids whos daddy and mummy are politicians and have wealth to send there kids packing of around the world haveing fun beacuse there reality is so far away from them they are stuck at the bottom of the ladder in poverty with no hope and vision for a brighter future the worst part of it is most of these kids who sign up come from families where there is no stability and structure in there home life and the army is a way out for them they cant see any opportunity for a 9-5 job where they come from with very little education and prospects to break out of the communities they live in this is a fault of this goverment who has not invested in the deprived ares of britain and instead ends up makeing these kids subjects of the goverment and being instiitusionalised in the army its no wonder when they come out provideing they are lucky to come out in one piece they end up on the streets of britain homeless and suffering from mental health and deppresion and does the goverment take care of its own not a chance at least the americans look after there veterans and equip them properly i am no fan of there foreign policy but they do a better job than us even though they are just as bad as we are in recruiting the young kids in the army who should be liveing there life and going to university and travelling the world instead due to poverty and social deprivation and family problems they end up in the army while the rich kids and the politicians send there kids to private schools and put a good word in with one of there rich and wealthy friends so that little jessica and john never up on the front line it makes me so angry
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our youth in the forces are trained to kill, to believe that they arent being indoctrinated is being naive.
in essence their indoctrination is not that distant from that of their claimed enemy, God, Queen and Country.
how is that very different from the average iraqi or afghani resistance fighter?
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For the first time in my life i find myself on the side of HMG enemies.
Does this make me a traitor, i hope not.
I do know this, In my years on this planet the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, and the anti terror legislation introduced by this government are the most debasing and dishonourable events i can recall by my country.
I consider myself proud of my heritage as an Englishman, but these politicians have dishonoured our history with their political expediency.
This is akin to the late c18th when service personnel had to chose between their conscience and their career.
I dont blame them if they choose career, but if so, they cannot expect to be treated as heroes, im afraid the war is too divisive.
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When I listened to some of the institutionalised comments serving and ex serving members of up to 25 years service were making about politics and the UK in general I'm glad I escaped after 12 years service.
That's the problem. Many come out of the forces thinking after their regimented public service experiences that they possess a natural authority in how the country should be run! The Armed Forces is in reality a small socialist republic defending the interests of the capitalist classes that rule it regardless of whose elected. Industrial and economic life in civvy street is completely different from the publicy funded safe haven of servic life.
There are however many positive features about forces life; the physical fitness, comradeship and character building aspects especially!
So if public money can finance such a vast fighting institution like the Armed Forces why can't it finance industry and the economy in exactly the same way that incorporate these features where like the forces there is no requirement for private enterprise!
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