- 4 Jul 08, 09:12 AM
Here's a reminder of question number 13, followed by Keith Hackett's answer:
Question
It is the dying seconds of a game and the away team are desperately hanging on to a 1-0 lead when they concede a corner.
A defender is standing on the goalline inside the post. From the corner a forward blasts the ball at goal and it hits the defender full in the chest and knocks him backwards off his feet.
The rebound goes straight back to the forward who volleys it back in, but the defender on the goalline stops his fall by grabbing on to the post. By holding on to the woodwork he is able to prevent his fall and put out his leg to make another goalline clearance, preventing a certain goal.
The forward insists the defender has gained an unfair advantage by using the post to stop him falling on his back and preventing the ball from going in the net.
The captain confronts the referee and says: "Sort it out ref. It you swing on the crossbar and head the ball out it's a card - give him a yellow!"
The manager is even more furious and argues that he has denied an obvious goalscoring chance. He calls for the referee to punish the player with a red card and give a penalty for an infringement in the box.
What would you do?
Keith Hackett's answer
There is no offence here. The defender has done nothing wrong in using the goal post to regain his balance. No law has been broken, no offence has been committed. The decision is PLAY ON.
It would be the same decision if the player held on to a team-mate to prevent falling - it is not a free-kick.
If, however, the defender had used the crossbar to get off the ground, thus gaining extra height in clearing the ball, then this is considered to be unsporting behaviour for which he would be given a yellow card and you would restart play with an indirect free-kick.
It would be the same decision if the defender had used a team-mate to get off the ground, gaining extra height in order to clear the ball: a yellow card and an indirect free-kick.
In this particular scenario I would not dismiss for the Denial of an Obvious Goal Scoring Opportunity because the criteria of DOGSO has not been fulfilled.
Interestingly, if the defender standing on the goalline inside the posts, had used an opponent to get off the ground, he would be holding the opponent down. The decision would be a penalty kick for the holding offence, and a yellow card. He can only be given a red card in such a situation if he had deliberately handled the ball to prevent the opposing team a goal. Maybe the law needs changing in this respect.
I would completely ignore the shouts of the manager from off the field and concentrate solely on continuing to referee the game.
This was the final one in our special edition of You Are The Ref. Thank you very much for all your contributions over the past few weeks. We hope you have enjoyed playing You Are The Ref on the BBC.
BBC Sport Euro 2008
Who are you supporting in Austria and Switzerland? Share your thoughts on all things Euro 2008 with our BBC Sport experts.
Fletch's view of Euro 2008
Recent Comments
- vikrulz on You Are The Ref #13
- vikrulz on You Are The Ref #13
- swampeemarsh on You Are The Ref #13
- BlueStarIT on You Are The Ref #13
- goalie_up_front on You Are The Ref #13
Teams
Latest Photos
Clicking on any of these photos will take you to an external site.
Podcast
Download or subscribe to this programme's podcast
The BBC is not responsible for the content of external internet sites
CommentsSign in
You need to sign in to contribute to this page. If you're new to BBC Blogs, creating your membership is quick and easy.
Perfectly legitimate clearance. Had he looked to delibaretly use the post for leverage I think it may be a different scenario but it looks to me like he's grabbed hold to stop himself falling and swung a leg out at the same time.
Book the captain for unsporting behaviour in trying to get a fellow professional carded and send the manager to the stands if he came onto the pitch
Complain about this comment
Unsporting behavour!!! Penalty kick and a yellow card. Also a yellow card for the opposing captain for his attempts to have the player cautioned.
Complain about this comment
the Post is part of the pitch, which is why you can use it to your advantage.
Complain about this comment
I agree with the above from Leeds,(unless it was my team attacking whereby i get a penalty and the "offender" sent off).
Complain about this comment
I agree with Leeds Blue. Swinging on the crossbar or climbing on a teammates shoulders to get a height advantage is unsporting and dangerous play and should be penalised.
It would be a far stretch to say that a falling defender grabbing for something to brake his fall comes under one of those scenarios.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Legal clearence, grabbing the post to steady himself would have been an instinctive reaction, not a deliberate one...yellow card for opposing captain for attempting to get another player booked also the manager should be booked/sent to the stands for the same offence.
Complain about this comment
The defensive team are Manchester United so Alex Ferguson would have already indicated full time to the ref and he blows the final whistle as the striker shoots for goal.
----------------------------------------------------
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Nothing wrong with the clearance. Play continues.
Complain about this comment
You learn something new every day. Is it really an offence to use the frame of the goal in any way, even if it's 'swinging on the crossbar to head the ball out'? Surely not? I thought any 'pitch furniture' - flags, frame, referee even - could be used?
Imagine a keeper is going one way, realises the ball's taken a deflection and kicks off the post to go the other way (admittedly, at least as far-fetched as the swinging one, but possible if it's a slow ball). Would that be illegal too, then?
Complain about this comment
It's funny this came up because i was watching some match of the day from last season and the amount of times players use the post to steady themselves is large.
Carragher, Scholes, Ferdinand, Terry have all made goal line clearences with one hand on the post. It's perfectly legal and in accordance with the rules..is it not?
Complain about this comment
I think it should be classed as a foul as it is an unfair advantage. Another example of which is if a player where to use his teammate to give him a lift for a corner to gain more height! This isn't allowed so why should using the woodwork be allowed?
Complain about this comment
No offence has occurred here or any rule been broken, nor advantage gained, so I fail yo understand why people are saying send him off. If the player was hanging like a monkey from the crossbar then perhaps, but using the upright to balance yourself is fine; we see this in football week in week out from corner kicks.
Same as when the ball looks like it's going out for a corner or throw, and ends up hitting the flag square on. It stays on the pitch - what you going to do book the flag?
I agree with booking the opposing skipper and sending the manager to the stands for dissent.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
That's a fair enough clearence. He hasn't stopped it with his hands or done anything wrong. Should book the captain for dissent.
Complain about this comment
If your going to penalise that then you also have to penalise defenders on the line at corners, who are holding on to the posts.
also defenders who colide with the post while making clearances is that a foul on the post or obstruction by the post?????
Complain about this comment
In all the games I've seen over the years I've never seen a player punished for holding onto the post. As has been said before a lot of players put their hand on the post to make sure of their position on the pitch when defending a corner (so to not take their eyes off the ball or other players movement). Many still have hold of the post when clearing the ball, so I'd be very surprised if it's against any rules.
If players started doing somersaults off crossbars or posts to get extra height it'd violate the dangerous play rules, but that's a shame as it'd be entertaining to watch.
I'd explain that to the complaining captain and book him if he carried on complaining too much, and send the manager to the stands for coming on the pitch.
Complain about this comment
The defending team is Arsenal so Arsene Wenger will say he didn't see it, so all of the football pundits will then assume that because he didn't see it it is legal.
Complain about this comment
Luis Garcia hit the volley so it crossed the line anyway - just like last time!
Complain about this comment
perfectly legitimate,it shouldn't even cause any arguments.
Complain about this comment
I agree that there's nothing wrong with doing that and it should be allowed.
If it was counted as an infringement, it wouldn't be a penalty as I guess the offence is something like unsporstmanlike conduct. Would be an indirect free kick on 6 yards maybe? (I don't think you can have it on the goal line)
Complain about this comment
If its Chelsea defending John Terry will have stolen the refs cards so game gets abandoned
If Arsenal defending, Gallas will run around like a child encouraging all his team mates to do the same shouting for their mamas. Of course Arsene will say he never seen the incident and compliment his team for their togetherness.
Man U - rooney will just swear at the ref for the sake of it doing his best Pob impression.
Liverpool would be lucky enough to have the goal awarded simply because the ref couldn't believe Peter crouch hit the target. Well done son
Complain about this comment
If the Man Utd player was Ronnie Woodwork then it's all right. Does he still play for them?
Complain about this comment
If the Man Utd player was Ronnie Woodwork then it's all right. Does he still play for them?
--------------------------------------------------------
Lol
Nah but he was pants
Complain about this comment
This has given the player an unfair advantage even though it was unintentional . Penalty and yellow card .
Complain about this comment
Liverpool would have the goal given upon a successful appeal to FIFA, UEFA, The FA, The FBI and MI5. This would give them a sixth place finish and therefore the fourth Champions League spot.
Complain about this comment
If it's right that a goal is not given, maybe given the circumstances it could be awarded post-humously?
Complain about this comment
nothing wrong!!
dissent from captain
Complain about this comment
It's fine, the player on the line was their new signing Stan Shun, but let's just hope the ref didn't make a decision post-haste.....
Complain about this comment
That's got to be legite. It's like when players used the old corner flags, the solid ones, to keep the ball in play.
Complain about this comment
The use of the post would have to be stamped out
Complain about this comment
Perfectly fine.
The goalposts are part of the field of play (as is the referee coincidentally)
Complain about this comment
The defensive team are man u and after the second clearance the ball rebounds to the striker fo rthe third time...
The striker smashes the ball and this time it hits the defender, who by now is 3 yards behind the goal line in the net, and rebounds off his head back into play.
However the linesman is conveniently checking for UFO's and the referee was unsighted by a piece of uncut grass the goal is not given.
Replays clearly show the ball crossing the line by three yards, the ref being two yards away, and the linesman perfectly positioned...yet Andy Gray applauds the strength of the officials in not giving the decision as it was the correct one.
Sound familiar ?
Complain about this comment
Fair and above board if it's the post. Had the player jumped, hung from the crossbar and then, ape like, blocked a shot that he would not have ordinarily reached - then this would be a foul
Complain about this comment
There is *no* way you can give a penalty for this. If it were an offence, it would be an indirect free-kick on the edge of the six-yard box.
I personally don't think it is an offence. The defender has only stopped his fall, he hasn't used to swing around or anything. I can't see a problem at all.
Complain about this comment
The rules however, have to be applied whether it is in the dying minutes or beginning of the game. By holding onto the post, the defender's action could be termed reflex action by a falling man and he did not therefore contravene any of the laws. In addition, the post is part of the apurtenances within the field of play so no offence commited. for the forward, it depends on the level of his protests -- a warning might suffice for a gentle or humble suggestion other wise a caution to him. The scenario did not indicate whether the manager entered the field of play; if he entered the field of play, i will send him to the stands, if outside the fourth official or the assistant referee will take care of him.
Complain about this comment
Why is using the post to balance yourself considered to be an unfair advantage? Are players just meant to lose their balance and smack their heads onto a post causing a concussion? The players NEED to do it so they know where the posts are in the instance of making a headed clearance; or should they dive onto the post head first without knowing it is there. In an age of health and safety executives, it could almost be construed as a legal requirement of the players to protect themselves from unnecessary injury, hence all the talk about clamping down on dangerous tackles.
As for swinging on the cross bar for a headed clearance, I find this comical as even attempting this would most likely result in a hand ball.
My reaction to this situation would pretty much be the same as everyone elses. A yellow card for unsporting behaviour regarding telling the ref to book players and the manager removed from the technical area and sent to the stands for the rest of the game followed by an inquest into implementing a 3 match ban from the technical area for the manager.
Complain about this comment
The referee's Graham Poll, so he just books the defending player three times and gets on with the match. Goal kick.
Complain about this comment
Send off the post!
Complain about this comment
Clearly nothing wrong here so if the captain persists with his complaints book him and likewise send the manager to the stands.
Interestingly if a team is time waisting and takes the ball down to the corner flag to stop the opposition getting it they are using the corner flag to block players so should this fall under the same category as swinging off the goalposts?
Complain about this comment
It's ridiculous - don't do anything and wave everyone away.
Complain about this comment
nothing all hes trying to do stay up play on
book the captain for complaining
Complain about this comment
Legitimate clearance, play on to the whistle.
If Trafford Utd. are the defending team, award penalty, send the player off.
Complain about this comment
Yes and he should be stoned!
Oh dear ! I thought I want commenting on HYS!
Complain about this comment
Course its legal..that like asking what happends if the ball hits the corner flag and stay in play...all legal
Complain about this comment
"Sort it out ref. It you swing on the crossbar and head the ball out it's a card - give him a yellow!"
There's no rule against swinging from the crossbar.
The clearance was legal; advise the captain of this and allow play to continue.
Complain about this comment
Everybody is spot on here. Using the post is no problem whether it be accidental or deliberate. Using the cross bar, well thats only allowed if you sign the monkey from 'Bedknobs and Broomsticks'. This is also the game where 'cheetahs' are on the pitch, quite ironic actually as thats what a number of premiership players actually are.
Complain about this comment
No law has been broken therefore no offence has been commited. If the protest from the captain carries on, play will be stopped and he will be cautioned for dissent, play will be resumed with a dropped ball. If the Manager has entered the field of play, then play will be stopped and he is sent to the stand and the club reported. Play will resume with a dropped ball. If play is not interuppted, it will continue until the final whistle.
Complain about this comment
used the post to unfairly deny a goal. Penalty and sent off.
Ball uses all aspects of the pitch, players do not
Complain about this comment
I couldn't help noticing that on the image you've used, Gary Neville clears it off the line and Big Roo finds it hilarious.
So it is clearly supposed to be Man Utd who are "desperately defending a one goal lead."
That wouldn't happen.
Therefore the scenario wouldn't happen.
Therefore there is no answer.
Complain about this comment
If using the post to your advantage is against the rules surely this means that goals that go in off the post are gaining an unfair advantage?
the oposing captain shuld b booked for trying to get another player sent off.
Complain about this comment
its ok.the post is part of the pitch.the captain should be cation for trying to get another player yellow carded and the coach given a touchline ban.
Complain about this comment
I reckon in these circumstances there's nothing to be awarded, except possibly to the whining Captain/manager.
But does anyone actually know, or is all this personal opinion? Reading some of the comments would suggest that some people have looked it up???
Complain about this comment
Well, the player calling for the card would indeed get a card, but I dont think I could punish a player for stopping himself from falling.
Though I'd also question who would swing on the crossbar to head a ball out.
a) it's already going over, so what's the point?
or b) if it's just dropping in, then you can't really head it out, but head it back into play.
Complain about this comment
like comment 10 you do see a lot of players using the post at corners - mostly grabbing hold it to ensure that their as close as possible to the post and also to ensure that when they ball watch the cross they don't wander too far out of position.
surely in this instance the ref lets play continue and books the opposition captain (although i'd probably just send him away with a flea in his ear).
Complain about this comment
Whereas swinging on a crossbar is considered dangerous play although not illegal, preventing your own fall by holding onto the post is far from being dangerous play. Legal clearance.
Yellow for captain of opposing team for trying to influence referee decision to getting another sent off. If opposing manager protesting too much then off to the stands.
Complain about this comment
I hope Mr hackett agrees with this...
I do NOT think the player using the post should be punished.
There are often scenario's on the pitch, where a player may be heavily tackled, and fall onto another player, but in desperation to get back up, he may use him as leverage.
So, what this scenario is saying (in my eyes lol) is, if your falling over, before you can carry on playing, you must make contact with the pitch. This would be another ridiculous rule to add to the many currently in our beautiful game.
I'd love to see what new rules we have nest season. Also, what ever happened to the 10yard rule. I thought that was more effective than a single player getting booked.
Well i'm not the boss. CLEARLY.
I do have my own football club though.. NEWTOWN AFC of Skelmersdale, Lancashire.
Phil
Complain about this comment
I'd say it was about intent. As the defender used the post to stop himself falling, not as leverage, then there is no foul in this instance, and the opposing captain should be booked for suggesting a booking.
Complain about this comment
The defending player has not swung on the crossbar so I wish people would stop mentioning something which never occurred.
The post is part of the field of play so if the defender has grabbed the post to prevent him from falling that is no problem.
The clearance is perfectly legitimate and play should continue
Perhaps if the opposing captains complaints are strong then I might consider cautioning him for dissent.
It might also be useful if some of the people on here who have got it wrong should think about attending a Referees Course - players think they know it all but in fact they know nothing.
Complain about this comment
The defender has not committed an offence and the ball is presumably still in play. If the opposing Captain's protestations are too vociferous the ref will stop play and yellow card him. Then he might want to ask the opposing Manager to sit down. Play will re-start with an indirect free-kick to the defending team from wherever the ref blew his whistle.
Complain about this comment
Also, what if his team mate was there and he used him to stop falling over... do you caution the player then. ridiculous. PLAY ON!!!!
Complain about this comment
I wouldn't mind being given an example of when someone has attempted to hang on to the cross-bar to head the ball. That should be made legal just for having the front to try it!
Complain about this comment
in our last game of this season, our Argentinian keeper backpeddled to palm the ball onto the far post, his momentum took him off the field of play, the ball rebounding off the post bounced up nicely for the opposing forward to nod the ball towards the unguarded net, our quick thinking keeper, not being able to get onto the pitch to stop the ball crossing the line, sticks his arm through the side of the net and punches the ball clear before it crosses the line, the forward appeals for goal/penalty, the ref waves play on and our players/fans are left laughing. This was a top non league game where the refs qualified to officiate league games or run the line in premier league games.
So if that was allowed to stand then no goal in this scenario.
Complain about this comment
There isn't a rule that says 'you can't use the goalposts to your advantage when clearing the ball'.
The goalposts are there so why not use it?
If the striker takes a shot, it hits the post/bar, play goes on. If a defender makes a last second deflection onto the bar (eg. Ashley Cole against Ecuador in the World Cup 2006), the bar was there which deflected it away.
So this shows the posts/crossbar CAN be used.
So let play continue, in the above situation.
I believe Keith Hackett will say the same thing!
Complain about this comment
Play continues. The goal posts are part of the pitch. Saying that the player has taken unfair advantage of the post would be like claiming that running on firm ground was to take unfair advantage.
Complain about this comment
I've no idea whether hanging on to a goalpost is illegal within the laws of the game but I'm also totally unclear why it should be. As for the opposing captain, just explain it to him and book him if he continues to argue. Saying book him for dissent straight away seems a bit harsh as it's an arguable point, it's an extremely tense point in the game and - most of all - he hasn't actually dissented...
Complain about this comment
Here's one...
Fast forward two years to the 2010 World Cup final. It's been a cracking match, full of great football and brilliant goals, and played in the truest spirit of sportsmanship - the sort of game that will forever be remembered as one of the all time classics.
Final result is 3-3, and there's no further scoring in extra time. So this shining example of football as its very best is going to be decided on penalties.
But then the captains come up to you together and say their teams have reached a mutual decision. They want to share the trophy.
They tell you that players won't take part in the penalty shoot-out - and if you force them to, they'll all just keep missing on purpose so no-one wins or loses. 'The concept of the tied game is one of the noblest in sport,' one says. 'Yes,' the other agrees, 'for two teams to engage in the most honest struggle only for neither to overcome the other is a result that should not be soiled by false means.'
You are, as one might say, in a bit of a spot. Do you:
1) Insist that the shoot-out goes ahead, thus reducing one of the greatest ever games of football to the level of farce?
2) Abandon the match, thus reducing one of the greatest ever games of football to the level of farce?
3) Agree to let the captains lift the trophy jointly, thus no doubt destroying the rest of your career as a FIFA ref but cementing your place in history at the centre of perhaps the greatest ever example of sportsmanship at its most noble?
Complain about this comment
Re43 Properfrenchman
*that'd make for a very lazy football match, and the half time oranges would be gone in seconds
Complain about this comment
If its legal to use the post for positioning but not for balance, how would a ref distinguish between the two?
Complain about this comment
These questions seem to get more and more ridiculous.
Holding on to a post, a crossbar, or lifting players up in to the air does NOT give one team an unsporting advantage. The other team could do exactly the same thing. It's just innovation and quick-thinking, why should that be punished? It should be rewarded, its entertaining if nothing else!
If the defender in this case gets booked then it will be tragic. Makes me glad that I don't play football at a level where issues like this can cost results that cost jobs.
Complain about this comment
A Penalty cannot be awarded for this offence, as the defender could only be guilty of unsporting behaviour. The result being an indirect freekick.
Complain about this comment
The ref should give the player complaining a yellow card for his confrontation and if the coach continues with his behaviour he should be sent to the stands.
This is the trouble with football, stop moaning at every decision, stop rolling around pretending to be shot and play the game.
Complain about this comment
It is like saying that a goal should be counted when the ball hits the cross bar. If the player instinctively was smart enough to hold on to the cross bar to prevent him from falling, hence clearing the ball from danger, so be it!
I reckon it is a legitimate clearance. No offence comitted, no card, no penalty....The player should be given a "green" card for being creative, smart and business like. He was able to do that because his mind, body and soul are there 100%. Hence, his sharp reflex to make sure the ball doesnt roll in, by holding on to the post to prevent him from falling...
Complain about this comment
If your going to put this in action, then scoring off the post becomes an unfair advantage aswell?
Wave play on ignore the fact its even happened.
Qualified Ref
Complain about this comment
Think it is a penalty as he used the post to stop falling over and was not just touching it to know his surrounding area like at a corner so gaining an advantage like the cross bar bit. Not a free kick as he is stopping a goal scoring opportunity.
Defender booked (unless he was the last man then red) along with the opposite captain for trying to sway the referee to book him (although i say he will be booked anyway).
Opposition manager - if he is complaining to the 4th assisstant - nothing, if he comes on the pitch - sent off and if he talks to the ref by the side of the pitch - nothing unless he is swearing then sent to the stands.
Just slightly of the mark - FIFA new rankings show England are 15th in the world - Scotland are 16th...... Not seen THAT in the press....
Complain about this comment
I can NOT believe that this would be even an issue!!!
Its bad enough to hear the ref's ugly whistle every 10 seconds in exciting and important matches, this is just another excuse to stop DEFENDERS from DEFENDING!
In case you haven't been in a football pitch, the Goal size's are on the LARGE side, how else the defender is to support his goalkeeper without using his hands?
I believe the defender has done nothing wrong as they only intended a classic clearance! No hand-ball, no foul, no jumping on shoulder.....
I agree with whoever that says:
Warn/Book the opposition captain for unsporting behavior in trying to get a fellow professional carded and send the manager to the stands if he came onto the pitch
Complain about this comment
use jumpers for goalposts is the answer then there is no post to grab.
Seriously though it is part of the field / pitch and a player should be allowed to use it
Complain about this comment
Its the same scenario where a player kicks the ball against a flag.
like someone as already stated the posts and flags are part of the pitch and thus the play should continue as the clearance was ok
Complain about this comment
How many times have we seen players covering the posts at corners hold on to the post while clearing the ball? Lots. E.g. Gary Neville - he can't stand without the assistance of the post ;-).
In all seriousness, a player gaining an unfair advantage relates to artificial assistance and is at the descretion of the referee.
I would say that this was not an unfair advantage situation and therefore allow play to carry on.
Complain about this comment
Why not run an electric current running through the post's and cross bar during set pieces to stop this happening in the first place?? give it a go!!!
Complain about this comment
If a player can't steady himself on the post they another shouldn't be able to score off it either. Play on, and book those arguing for dissent.
Complain about this comment
I think this would require a disciplinary hearing due to the nature of the alleged incident.
The court may rule ion favour of a fine which would be perfectly ligitimate in the circumstances. Section 8C of the FA rulebook states that in the case of player indecently exposing himself on the post there would be grounds for disqualification from the game and a lifelong ban from the EU due to the political influences.
Yours sincerely Sam Bird, Chief FA executive
Complain about this comment
Seen Ashley Cole do it all the time. Perfectly legal.
Complain about this comment
He should allow himself to fall hit his head on the post,incur brain damage,then he could come here and write some stupid comments.
Complain about this comment
Perfectly legal clearance. Book for dissent, if necessary; manager to stands, if necessary.
Complain about this comment
Surely the block is fair as the post is part of the goal and therefore part of the pitch. Just like when the ball is stopped from going out by the corner flag.
I would play on but first caution the opposing player and manager
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The only way to avoid this would be to remove the goals and use two piles of jumpers.
Complain about this comment
heres another scenario, say you're one on one with the keeper, u chip it over him, but as you look to run onto the ball the keeper rugby tackles you to the ground, and a team-mate, who was offside when you chipped the ball, puts the ball in the net. The linesman is flagging for offside. Does the referee give the penalty and send off the goalkeeper or does he give an offside? and even if the ref does give an offside should the keeper still be sent off?
Complain about this comment
Nobody is ever going to complain to the referee about a player holding onto the goalpost. I'm a referee and I just cannot conceive of this happening.
The main problem with players using the frame of the goal would be safety. If a player pulled himself up onto the crossbar, he is endangering other players and himself, as the crossbar is not designed for this.
If the goalkeeper deliberately pulled the cross-bar down (wooden) to cause a ball to not enter the goal, then he is adjusting the field of play in an unsportsmanlike way and would be cautioned.
The goalpost should be rigidly in place and capable of remaining in place even if a player collided with it at full pelt, otherwise the referee would not have allowed the game to go ahead. Therefore, safety is not an issue with a player using the post to break his fall so no offence has been committed.
Too much complaining from either the opposing player or manager may well result in cautions and/or dismissals.
Complain about this comment
custardpoint - point #82
You are correct in that it is legal but not 'because Ashley Cole does it'.
Ashley Cole constantly swears at match officials and that is most definitely not legal!!
Complain about this comment
"A defender is standing on the goalline inside the post."
If the defender is inside the post, then he has left the field of play to go climbing inside some tunnel. Therefore, when he emerges from the post, he's not allowed to re-enter the pitch until the referee signals him back on.
However, rather than booking the player for entering the pitch without permission, he should stop the game as the posts would obviously be wider than they are allowed to be, as well as containing some sort of door to allow people to climb in and out of.
Complain about this comment
How can you say it was a goal scoring opportunity? The defender could have fallen over and kept the ball out with his leg.
No Goal, penalty or card. Play on and stop the whinging.
Complain about this comment
The post, just like the referee, is part of the field of play. If the ball hits the referee, the play goes on, no matter what situation it places either team in. So if the post is used for balance, it is not even a foul, let alone a red card offence!
Stupid question to be perfectly honest!
Complain about this comment
Well...
The player has used the post, you can use a player to get a goal kick at the end so it's not an yellow.
The captain should get booked for moaning at nothing, and if the manager came on he should be sent to the stands.
Complain about this comment
I think that if the defender used the post to
position himself there, then it's legal, but if
he used
it to balance himself then it's a penalty and
a yellow card for the defender. And in both
cases a yellow card for the captain.
Complain about this comment
This is fair. It is the same at the defender at a corner protecting the far post, holding the post and preventing a goal.
If the whinging opponent is persistent, he sould be cautioned.
Complain about this comment
if he was falling that close to the post the grabbing hold of it is allowed as he could be preventing injury and tyou dont play football on the floor
if it had been the cross bar he had used to pull himself up to head it away then award a penalty but in an unintentional case using the post then the clearence should stand as no intent was made
if u consider a corner a player often holds onto the post so he can cover it and more often than not he will intercept the ball on the goal line which is the same thing as far as i see it
if he is not gaining an unfare advantage then the clearence is played on
Complain about this comment
Book The player and give and in-direct freekick. Also remind the captain that it's his job to book players and no one elses.
Complain about this comment
Oh look, another one featuring a Rag! What a shock. Last time it was Ronaldo, now it's that goon Rooney. Pathetic.
Complain about this comment
I'm going to play my 'gain control first' card again. You can tell I'm a teacher, can't you?
Who on Earth do these people think they are telling you the laws of the game? You're a trained referee, for pity's sake!
Step one, before making any decision on the defender, is to leave the opposition captain and manager in no doubt that you are in control of the match and that they would be extremely unwise to try and tell you what to do. You should ask them to consider themselves formally warned. You could add a booking for the captain or a sending to the stands for the manager, but this would be a bit harsh, unless either have already shown signs of dissent previously.
This should ensure that, whatever decision you make, you will at least gain a grudging respect for the rest of the game.
Complain about this comment
The player using the post to steady himself should be sent off, the player complaining to the referee should be sent off, both captains should be sent off for dissent then the managers. I would then go over and punch Rooney in the face, take my ball and go home.
Complain about this comment
I think that as the woodwork is part of the pitch, players should be able to use it as they wish. The woodwork (and corner flags) can keep the ball in play so they should be able to help the player stay on his feet, if necessary.
Complain about this comment
As far as I know, there is nothing illegal about using the post to stop yourself falling - in fact, it is an instinctive reaction.
Therefore, as in the case of an "accidental" hand ball, the defender has done nothing wrong in any event. (Even if there were such a rule, which I do not think there is)
What should the ref do ?
He should give the opposing captain a yellow card (for calling for a player to be booked) and banish the manager to the stands.
Complain about this comment
It depends, If it was rangers at home the opposition player would be sent off and a penalty would be given.
However if it was celtic at home then it would be play on and the celtic players would be booked for dissent.
Complain about this comment
I love how about 100 people use common sense and the rules to show how there's no way it could be an offence, yet you still get the odd person believing it's somehow a penalty. Genius.
If holding a post to keep your balance is a foul, then surely using a player to lean on is a foul too. In which case, there'd be a foul every few seconds, and we don't want that do we?
Complain about this comment
lets just use jumpers for goal posts!! and the ref can decide whether the ball ever goes over or not in true old school playground styley...problem solved no???
Complain about this comment
It's one of those ones where maybe the rules say penalty but in reality no referee would give anything of it.
Done and dusted
Complain about this comment
The player can use any of his surrounding environment during the game, so it is not a penalty. After all the FIFA rules state:
A player, substitute or substituted player is sent off and shown the red
card if he commits any of the following seven offences:
1. is guilty of serious foul play
2. is guilty of violent conduct
3. spits at an opponent or any other person
4. denies the opposing team a goal or an obvious goalscoring opportunity
by deliberately handling the ball (this does not apply to a
goalkeeper within his own penalty area)
5. denies an obvious goalscoring opportunity to an opponent moving
towards the player?s goal by an offence punishable by a free kick
or a penalty kick
6. uses offensive or insulting or abusive language and/or gestures
7. receives a second caution in the same match
I don't see anything about holding onto the post, do you?
Complain about this comment
if it was in the european chapionship finals ,what ever the referee decided no matter how ludicrous, uefa would back him up. they would come out and quote some obsure rule that was not really meant for that instance, like the offside in the holland italy game.
Complain about this comment
I believe using the upright as a means of support, whether accidentally or purposefully, to be perfectly legitimate.
--------------------------------------------------------
What is the difference between using the post to support a goal-line clearance to having a corner flag prevent the ball leaving play, and the attacker picking up the ball and scoring from the resulting possession? I don't believe there is any.
If, per se, it was an infringement, then I don't believe a penalty kick can be awarded as no "personal infringement" has occurred, such as a cynical, last-man mowing down. The outcome would have to be an indirect free-kick, but from where, I'm not sure. Would the kick be replaced 10 yards away from the goal-line upon which defenders (if forming a wall) would stand, or would the ball be placed on the line (where the infringement occurred remember) with a defending wall also on the line?
To conclude my thoughts: no infringement has taken place and for that matter, play would continue as normal.
Complain about this comment
I don't see this as a foul, the post is part of the playing area and if the ball can legitimately rebound off it and goalkeepers can collide with it then if a defenders holds himself up on it I can't see the foul
The player demanding a yellow is of course worthy of a card - or is that not a rule yet?
Complain about this comment
I would have thought something like this is fine, something like standing on the crossbar to score/deny a goal would come under 'unsporting behaviour'.
Complain about this comment
I would be *outraged* were this decision given against my team. I agree fully with what seems to be one of the major arguments here - players hold onto the post all the time from corners, and although it's far more dramatic, this is simply an extension of that.
It's definitely not a penalty. Even if it's a foul, it's got to be an indirect free kick.
If a foul isn't given... maybe book the captain for dissent, but understand his frustration, and if he's not being abusive, just firm, give him a simple warning. Managers are not allowed onto the pitch, full stop. Even if a foul is given, he should be sent to the stands. Actually, as a note, even if the foul is given, if the captain is being over-abusive, book him for dissent anyway.
Complain about this comment
In this situation I believe the player is using the post soley as an arm support and doesn't directly impede any particular rule. There would be no right to complain unless the ball struck the players arm!
In another circumstance the said player may use the crossbar to swing onto! This action would result in both/either penalty and a red card.
As a referee if a player continued to harass me for this supposed rule breakage ( para 1) I would have no option but to yellow or red card them. I would stamp my foot down by enforcing a legal clearance letting players defending resume the game via a goalkick.
Complain about this comment
Robbo Manunited has pulled the proverbial rulebook out!
Following on from Jc Gunner I'd like to point out that back in my school days everything was solved via the penalty spot!
Did it go over the line? Pen on it
Lying on the post? Pen on it
I got a scenario for you. What if is a traditional football game. Say amatuer mud infested Sunday league. Its 1-1 a crucial cupfinal nailbiter. Green and claret's star striker number 10 pings the ball from outside the box. To everyones amazement the football is stuck in a stanchion at the top of the post. Should this be a viable goal?
If not could the offensive team complain to the chocolate football muncher Brian Barwick as stanchions are not outlawed?
Complain about this comment
What if a ball is heading towards the corner flag with the defender chasing it, but the ball is at an angle so that it would bounce off the corner flag and out for a corner. The defender cannot reach the ball with his feet to play it, and so dives forward, grabbing on to the flag and bending it towards goal, stopping the ball from going out of play. He then gets up and plays the ball.
Is this a foul?
Complain about this comment
The majority of the posts on here are spot on. No rule breaking occurs on the part of the defender. The opposing captain needs booking, and the manager should be sent to the stands.
The entire argument is moot however. Man U are the defending team. The striker taking the first shot would be red carded for being in a legitimate goal scoring position against the red devils. At the other end of the pitch, at precisely the same time Ronaldo would hit the deck in the box, as if hit by a sniper. Fergison would demand the opposing keeper be sent off as he was in the vicinity of Ronaldo when the phantom foul occurred. A penalty would be taken with no goal keeper and the sky commentary and punditry team would not see any other way the ref could have handled the situation and would be in awe of Man U's "winning qualities".
Complain about this comment
There is nothing in the rule book saying you cannot use the posts or cross-bar in any scenario. SO, its perfectly legal. Play on.
There is no unfair advantage as there are two teams on the pitch and the rules are for both of them. If one team is using their heads more than the other, thats just tough luck.
Complain about this comment
no card, no goal, no offence, no penalty, no worries, just good defending.
saying he has the advantage is nuts, how many times does a goalie use his own player like a ladder to get to a ball.
if you score of the post then disallow that also.
footballs dying people and we let it happen.
Complain about this comment
I seems perfectly legitimate to me. The posts are part of the field. The very ground/grass they stand on is helping them stay up and move - you couldn't stop them using that. I don't think it is necessary to talk about deliberately using the post or not as I don't think it should be considered illegal to use the post. Of course the post can be used to the player's advantage but so can the corner flag, your teammates, the opponent's players and even the ground, particularly where a bobble is(Paul Robinson vs Croatia). They can even lead directly to goals being conceded. It would be farcical if any of these things were to be considered illegal due to one team getting an 'unfair advantage'.
Complain about this comment
how on earth could u disallow that? u'd have to disallow goals that go post and in.
if a goal takes a deflection u could argue then that by hitting the ball against the player is gaining an unfair advantage
Complain about this comment
Arsenal are 1-0 up with 20 minutes to play in a league match against Chelsea.
Chelsea are attacking when an Arsenal player slide tackles inside the 6 yard box. Missing completely, he hits the post and knocks it over.
The attacker shoots but it is blocked by the fallen post and rolls out for a corner. The defender claims the ball hadn't crossed the line and therefore it is mearly a corner kick. The attacker claims that the ball would have gone in anyway.
The assistant informs you that there is a spare post but will take at least 30 minutes to construct. The Arsenal manager argues that the game should go on as his team are winning however the Chelsea manager demands that the game be post-poned as a 30 minute break will change the complection of the game and as it is a late kick-off he doesn't want his player playing into the night. To add insult to injury it is growing dark and one of the floodlights is faulty.
What is your course of action?
Complain about this comment
Legitimate clearance. The goal posts and bar are as much a part of the pitch as the lines, flags and the field. We don't say the ball has gone out just because it hits the post, and as part of the pitch on which the game is played... it can be used by either side.
Would you say that the player who scores a goal which goes in off the post has been given an unfair advantage by using the post to alter the course of his shot?
Complain about this comment
Here's one.......
A match is in progress and the centre forward has the ball and is about to tap it into an empty net.
But, they are using the multi-ball system and a ballboy/girl is standing by the side of the goal and throws a spare ball at the match ball and knocks it away from right under the centre forward's feet, resulting in the chance disappearing.
What should the ref do?
Complain about this comment
I would like to be REFEREE.
Complain about this comment
Play on, it's perfectly legal and people who think that it is a penalty clearly know nothing about football.
I wouldn't bet against Keith Hackets answer being "give a penalty" though.
Complain about this comment
I can't see how he has done much wrong it's the classic "I'm a little tea pot" pose used my most defenders on the post. Stern talking to, or card for the opposing captain.
This situation wouldn't happen in a pro game but what if the holes in the pitch were loose enough for a player holding the post to push the goal posts forward thus lowering the height of the goal. Maybe by accident due to him falling from the original shot, would this change the ref's mind?
Complain about this comment
Tell the captain to get on with playing and let the manager know if he carries on he wil be the one to end up in the stand. Nothing wrong with the actions of the player stopping the ball on the line.
Complain about this comment
i think what has happened has happened and it has happened for a reason. the happening of this reason is unknown. it is up to you to decide this happening. choose wisely!!
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I think the ref should
1) book captain for attempting to infulence ref to card a player
2) red card the manager and send him to stand. ( he should know better and be setting a good example to players )
3) be prepared to book anyone else who dissents this action and play on with a dropped ball from edge of penalty area if ball was in play when fracass began.
4) make sure he writes an accurate report to FA because he is going to come in for a lot of stick
Complain about this comment
book the captain, send the manager to the stand.
Complain about this comment
Fine piece of defending. Give this man a bonus. As for the moaners report them to the FA and dock them 10 points!!!!
Complain about this comment
If it was the other way around and the player attempting to score the goal held on to the post to stop him from falling and scored the goal would it be dissallowed ???
Very Probably Not
Complain about this comment
It's a perfectly good clearance and play on! Many people do it when they hold on to the post off a corner, and clear it off the line with their feet or any other part. Nothing illegal here ref!
Complain about this comment
I would think that it could be an offence to use the post like this so would award indirect free kick. But oposition would be allowed to stand on line to be on field of play. Forward should be cautioned for trying to get Ref to do booking.
Complain about this comment
Holding post is not an official offence, and wasn't delibrate. Perhaps if he started delibrately swinging on the crossbar maybe he would be booked.
From what I see he was using the post to stop himself from getting hurt and it was fortunate that the forward got a rebound and I see it as a normal goal line clearence.
What I would do is stop play and caution the forward and the captain for unsporting play by trying to get a fellow professional sent off. I would then send the manager to the stands for more unsporting behaviour.
I would then blow then blow the whistle for full time.
Complain about this comment
I would take both into consideration and look round. I would say that it is an unfair advantage but seeing as its not an offical rule it will stay 1-0
Complain about this comment
why did the post box?
because it saw the garden fence
Complain about this comment
Goal frame is part of the field of play, so absolutely nothing wrong with what the defender has done. Book the opposition captain, and send their manager to the stand
Complain about this comment
I dont think holding the post is illegal so therefore there is nothing with doing it. It is bad sportmanship but if it was to win the game everybody would do it, and if it is not illegal in the game there is nothing wrong. Also book the opposing captain.
Complain about this comment
well i think that it is ok to hang on to the post as torsten frings did that in the euro 2008 final against spain
Complain about this comment
the striker is complaining about the defender using the post to help him in doing his job, would he make an identical complaint if a shot that he failed to put on target came off the post and went in? same situation, the post was used to influence the course of the match...
Complain about this comment
Play carries on as normal, the defender not having commited any type of foul. send the manager to the stands for coming onto the pitch. Goalkeepers sometimes swing on the crossbar to tip the ball over so this is basically the same action as that.
Complain about this comment
Red card for the player and a penalty. The captain should also be booked for dissent.
Complain about this comment
It's not easy playing the Referee. However, it's the game we 're supposed to play. The Defender does not merit any punishment or cards warning. The goal post is part of the football game, like the field, the corner flags. Touching or holding intentionally or unintentionally these fixtures of a football pitch does not warrant a sanction by the Referee. Furtheremore, I do not think there is a law in the FIFA rules that forbids touching ,or holding the goal post by a player.
LAEBKURA, OTTAWA,ON,CANADA.
Complain about this comment
I would let the defender have the benefit of the doubt as it does not say in the rule book that you can not use the post to provent a goal.
Complain about this comment
the defender is in the clear, what happens if a keepr is laid on the floor and uses the post to get back up and then saves a shot, play contiues, what about a corner when the defenders are 'holding the posts'. The opposition manger should be booked as well as there captain for unsporting behavior.
But if it was one of the big clubs attacking against middlesbrough or teh teams like them the ref would bottle it and give a penalty.
Complain about this comment
To 127. that was covered a while back!
Complain about this comment
Put the situation the other way round. A corner comes over and a forward at the back post heads the ball back across the face of the goal. In the process of moving backwards to head the ball, the forward loses his balance and stops himself from falling using the post. The ball is played back across the goal again where the forward is still hanging on to the post - he scores with a tap-in to make it 1-1.
In either the case of the defender or the foward using the post to remain balanced, I don't see that an unfair advantage has been gained or anything dangerous has taken place.
G_U_F
Complain about this comment
i agree that this is perfectly legal. i forget how often i see strikers grip the corner flag when trying to maintain balance and possession in the last minutes of a match. surely that falls under the same law
Complain about this comment
FAO 153
In the context of your article - the forward would be offside.
keep right on
Complain about this comment
Legal clearance, surely? I agree book the opposition captain and censure the manager on touchline both for unsporting conduct.
Complain about this comment
Mr Hackett "would restart play with an indirect free-kick" if the defender had used the crossbar to get off the ground.
So where would the indirect free-kick be taken from? The goal line?
Complain about this comment
The indirect would be taken ten yards from the goal line.
Complain about this comment
FAO of 155 re 153, where does his comment refer to the player being offside, if you're on the goal line you could still be level with a defender and goalkeeper!
Complain about this comment
Well done Keef!
You got it right!!
Complain about this comment
Trevor4491 - post #157 (and KennyDalgleishJunior - post #158).
The offence took place within the goal area (ie the six-yard box). Free-kicks to the defence within the goal-area may be taken from anywhere within the goal area, so would normally be taken from the six-yard line.
This is slightly different to when an indirect free-kick to the attackers is given within the six-yard box. In that case, the free-kick is taken on the 6-yard line, directly in line from where the offence took place.
Complain about this comment
So it is considered unsporting behaviour to hang on the crossbar or use a teammate to head the ball yet not so when the player uses the post to regain his balance. How rediculously inconsistent.
Now I'm sure he would say that an unfair advantage is gained in using the crossbar/team-mate to head the ball. However, clearly an advantage is gained by holding the post to regain balance. If the player didn't, he would be on the floor and couldn't make the clearance. It seems to me that it would be advantage for the player to regain his balance and be standing rather than on the floor. Is is not an advantage being able to clear the ball rather than a goal being scored? In both these cases the player gets an advantage from using goal frame/team-mates so there is a clear inconsistency. The rule should be the same for both.
Keith Hackett says: "The defender has done nothing wrong in using the goal post to regain his balance. No law has been broken, no offence has been committed."
Which exact law has been broken in a player using the crossbar then? It seems Hackett says it is unsporting behaviour but how is that unsporting yet using the post to stay on your feet is not.
Complain about this comment
It's the 1966 World Cup Final, it's into extra time and the score stands at 2-2. A West German player crosses the ball and his compatriot Haller lashes it onto the bar beating Gordon Banks. The ball rebounds out and looks like it wasn't over the line, but the Russian linesman is furiously flagging and is convinced it was a goal. You go with his decision and award the goal.
After some debate the players finally line up for kick off and you are about to restart the game, when Queen Elizabeth II storms down from the royal box and says she had a clear view of the incident and coud see it wasn't a goal. Bearing in mind you are in Britain and she is the reigning monarch and is demanding you disallow a goal which you have just given, do you follow her advice or that of the Russian linesman Mr Hackett? I'd be quite interested to hear your answer, as I have no idea what I would do.
Complain about this comment
to thegreatape : give the goal, we'll win anyway. better enjoy it while it lasts!
Complain about this comment
Re 155
I agree that in some circumstances he could be offside - There could be defenders on the line paying him onside and also the ball could have been played back across goal by an opponent attempting to clear the ball. Also the return ball may have not travelled forwards.
G_U_F
Complain about this comment
Goalie_up_front - Post #165 (re post #155)
It may interest you to know that a ball does not have to travel forwards for a player to be offside.
The player must be ahead of the ball at the instant that it is played but, even if the ball is played sideways (or even backwards) and the player then runs back to get it, he will still be ruled offside.
Complain about this comment
Please can we have all the "you are the ref" questions and answere posted please. I thought the idea was very good and should be introduced again when the season begins. It is amazing how little common sense is used in the answers, and a lack of understanding of the Laws.
Regards,
Swampy
Complain about this comment
this is totally legal cos if the ball touches the corner flag then the play continues and no corner or throw in is given, this means you are allowed to use any object on the pitch!!!!
Complain about this comment
so many answers prove that it is hard to be a ref!!!!!(-_-)
Complain about this comment
View these comments in RSS