- 23 Jun 08, 10:26 AM
Here is a special bonus question from You Are The Ref creator Paul Trevillion:
Question
A goalkeeper is having a nightmare game. He has let in two very soft goals, but his team are hanging on to a 3-2 lead with five minutes remaining.
They concede a penalty. If the spot-kick is scored it is likely to mean extra-time.
It's a poor penalty, fired straight at the goalkeeper. But the keeper then spills it and the penalty taker runs on to it in an attempt to put the rebound in the net. The goalkeeper also goes for the ball and dives, but makes contact with the opponent before touching the ball.
Here is the situation:
A: The penalty taker claims another penalty
B: The penalty taker's captain insists the goalkeeper has denied an obvious goalscoring opportunity so it should be another penalty and the goalkeeper must be sent off
C: The goalkeeper's manager runs on to the field and says it is not a sending off as the goalscoring opportunity is still valid as it is another penalty
D: The manager then insists he will substitute his goalkeeper before the second penalty is taken
E: The penalty taker's captain insists the manager should be sent to the stands the moment he ran onto the pitch, therefore you must disregard all of his comments
You are the ref - what do you do?
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Penalty, Red card and send the manager to the stands. They should be allowed to bring on the substitute goal keeper for an outfield player. Also the panalty takers captain could be booked for unsporting behaviour in trying to get the red card and the manager sent away
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Spot on supercheese. Point C in the scenario is a load of rubbish by the way, as it effectively argues that any player who by breaking the rules denies an obvious goalscoring opportunity, but gives away a penalty in doing so, should not be sent off. This is clearly wrong, both in law and common sense.
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I agree with suprecheese although i am a little confused at how the goalkeeper manages to make contact with the player first if the ball in in between the player and the keeper...this could suggest that the striker never touches the ball and it is not a goal scoring opportunity, but an off the ball tackle. other possible solution is therefore a red card and an indirect free-kick.
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A:Right to claim another penalty
B:Unsporting play, risking a yellow
C:Manager shouldn't enter the field of play, comments he has made are a red herring
D:Cannot substitute his GK without the ref's permission and if the ref sends him off then the sub GK must come on for somebody else
E:Captain is definately risking a yellow now for unsportsmanship. You would probably have already sent off the manager however and disregarded his comments before the captain says to do so.
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#3- What on earth are you on about? in-direct free-kick? I understand what you are saying about how the keeper can get the striker first before the ball and yes it isn't stopping a goal scoring opportunuity if the striker hasn't touched it, but a off-the-ball foul is still a foul and seeing as it is inside the penalty area, a penalty should be given. the keeper sent off.
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Second penalty awarded, offending goalkeeper sent off, stern telling-off for penalty taker's captain (but no card), 'keeper's manager sent to stand but allowed to take off an outfield player and bring on sub goalie.
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1. Who'd be a ref?!!
...oh yea, me!!
2. The 'keeper has prevented a clear goalscoring opportunity - because the ball is in open play when he takes out the forward. So, sorry mate but bye-bye; the 'keeper gets sent off.
3. The foul takes place in the penalty area and therefore it will be a penalty just as with any foul in open play in the penalty area (well, nearly all, but don't get me onto that one or we'll be here all day!)
4. The manager will be sent to the stands not only for entering the field of play without permission but also for his harassment of the official.
5. It is entirely up to the referee when he allows a substitution to take place (as long as it is during a break in play). Therefore he could either allow a substitution of an outfield player for another 'keeper who can then go in goal - or if he is tired of the whole nonsense the ref can force the defending team to continue with an outfield player in goal until the next break in play. (we have to get our own back some times!!)
6. Lastly, but not leastly, the attacking captain will be cautioned for unsporting behaviour; namely for asking for an opponent to be disciplined (the manager of the defending team). It worries me not whether it is a player or an official that someone asks to have cautioned or disciplined - such a demand is unsporting and liable to imply that the referee is simply doing that player's bidding. Enter the book my son!
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A second penalty would be awarded, the goal keeper would be shown the red card and dismissed from the field of play. An out-field player could be substituted for a stand-in goal keeper before the penalty kick was taken. The manager who ran onto the pitch would be dismissed to the stands and reported to the authorities.
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Penalty kick. Send of goalie. Send manager to the stands, and report the whole incident in the referee match report.
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This one's quite a simple one.
Its a penalty for the foul by the keeper. (Penal offence for playing an opponent before the ball) From the way this is written it is made clear that this also constitutes a sending off for Denying an Obvious Goal Scoring Opportunity by a foul punishable by a direct free kick or penalty. Manager is then 'sent to the stands' for entering the Field Of Play (and possibly in an agressive manner?) and is reported for misconduct after the game.
The sensible thing would be then to allow the offending team to make a substitution to replace an outfield player with a goal keeper - obviously as long as they have not carried out the maximum amount of subs already. This is fine in law as the play has stopped and you have been advised by the manager (even though he was being 'sent off' at the time) For those that may say you would ignore the sub and make them play an outfield player need to remember that as referees we are there to enforce the laws of the game, not 'even things up' by holding grudges and vendettas. Consideting what has just gone on combined with the scoreline, time remaining this will be quite an emotional period - you should be looking to calm down the situation as much as possible - not inflame it
Finally, once substitution is complete and everyone has calmed down, take penalty taker's captain to once side, a long one way talk with him explaining that you make the decisions on the field of play, and that you only will decide when players should be carded, followed by a caution for Unsporting behaviour (demanding an opponent is carded), if it was a second caution then you would then show a red card (but you would pray that it wasnt a 2nd yellow!!). Yes, technically in Law you could caution twice for first demanding the keeper went, then again for the manager - however - the powers and duties of a referee as listed in Law 5 clearly state that: Punishes the more serious offence when a player commits more than one offence at the same time. As this is all in one event I believe it is in the spirit of the Laws that only one caution is given. It would also again be 'looking for trouble'
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2nd Penalty, red card for goalkeeper, yellow card for opposition captain, manager sent to stand, substitution permitted as it would be unfair to continue with no goalkeeper same as if they are injured play can't be continued until there is someone in goal.
Here is a scenario:
Russian player known for liking long shots and regularly scoring, lines up a shot from 30 yards out,plenty of players in front, goal keeper out of position. As he strikes the ball a Spanish player (knowing his keeper is out of position) fouls him, resulting in the player miskicking the ball and hitting the ground in considerable pain.
Did the Spanish player deny a goal scoring opportunity? If so, what is the punishment?
How close does it have to be to the goal before deemed a goal scoring opportunity?
We have already seen Gomez miss for Germany from 2 yards, where as Russia only missed by inches from 44 yards out.
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If the ball is between the goalie and the striker, and the goalie "dives on the ball" but contacts the striker before collecting the ball, surely the striker has fouled the goalie in his attempt to perform his function! If the striker had nicked the ball past the goalie before contact I would agree with a penalty, but surely in this case it is a free kick to the goalie!
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Cannot agree with Visciousvic.
The scenario says, 'The goalkeeper also goes for the ball and dives, but makes contact with the opponent before touching the ball.' This is a long way from 'when he takes out the forward'.
There are too many imponderables for me.
Is the goalkeeper making a genuine effort to get the ball but happens to 'make contact' with his opponent in trying to do so?
On the other hand is the goalkeeper trying to bring down his opponent whilst giving the impression that it is a clear attempt to get the ball?
Is the goalkeeper forbidden to attempt to get the ball in these circumstances because he MIGHT make contact' with his opponent?
Is the opponent aware of the chance of 'contact' and deliberately looking for an offence by the goalkeeper?
There is a referee and his assistant watching closely and it is up to them to decide the intentions of the players involved but I see nothing in the scenario that says that it MUST be a penalty, a card, a sending off or anything else. There just isn't enough detail.
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A) Give second Penalty
B) Caution captain for unsporting behaviour
C) Send manager to the stands for leaving his technical box and entering the field of play
D) Only allow substitution if it is an outfield player being taken off for a replacement keeper
E) Caution the captain again for unsporting behaviour, showing him a red card
Eventually let the Penalty kick be taken, although i don't see how a German missed a Penalty. Penalty taking comes naturally to them.
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1 Definite penalty
2 Where is the ball now in relation to the goal - if it has gone sideways and the forward is now running away from goal then the keeper could well get away with a yellow card for the foul. Remember this is the captain of the team hoping to gain an advantage and is only his opinion.
3 Goalkeepers manager can make his way to the stand for the rest of the game for entering the field of play without permission (yellow card) and leaving his technical area (another yellow) - anything he says will be disregarded. He will also be asked to learn the rules about what happens when a goalscoring opportunity is denied (see brooksieblue's comments).
4 If the keeper is to be substitued (i.e. has not been sent off already) it is no longer the manager's decision to make about whether he will be substitued as he is now in the stands - if his assistant chooses to replace him then he may do so. If the keeper is sent off then an outfield player may be replaced by the substitute goalkeeper. This all depends on whether the team have any substitutions left to make, otherwise an outfielder will have to go in goal.
5 The players captain needs to be reminded of his role and will be cautioned for unsportsmanlike behaviour and told to get on with the game.
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#13- Do you even watch the game? because it doesn't appear that you do. the Keeper may have intentionally gone for the ball but instead got the player, but then thats the same for every other tackle. the player intentionally goes for the ball, misses, gets the player, the ref gives foul. It is no different in this scenario. and as a ref, if it looks as if the striker is intentionally looking for a penalty, then you book him for diving and award a free-kick to the defending team. however, in this situation, the striker appears to be trying to score rather than looking for a Penalty. so think before you next post okay?
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Easy as... A, B, E !
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just reading through.. #11 Squeeze box, isnt there a 10-yard rule for defending players ?
And even if he was closer if they decided to take it quickly, it would be retaken and the defender would get a yellow.
As for denying a goal scoring opportunity, come on !
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supercheese is spot on - excuse the pun
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#16, I think "appears" is the key word here. To me it appears that the striker has decided the goalie is going to get to the ball first and so kicks him to attempt to win a penalty. Remember that a ref has to make a judgement without any replay so it is very subjective, so don't be mean to #13!
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I would argue that the ball crossed the line (hopefully rhe linesman will back me up) and therefore it's a goal and the dirty goalie gets to carry on with his mare of a game!
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TYPICAL LEHMANN!!!
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I would give an indirect free kick for obstructing the keeper and keep my head down.
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The linesman comes over to the referee and points out that the goalkeeper moved forward off his line before the ball was kicked. No foul but re-take the penalty. Goalkeepers have broken the rules for every penalty that I have seen in this tournament. One linesman should position himself so that he can see both the movement of the keeper and the ball being struck.
On the subject of managers and officials being on the pitch, if you go by the current tournament, nothing would happen. In the Croatia and Turkey game both benches came on to the field after goals were scored. Bilic was the first one on when they equalised against Turkey.
The quiz is interesting though, the difference between what should happen and what actually occurs is huge in some respects.
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C: The goalkeeper's manager runs on to the field and says it is not a sending off as the goalscoring opportunity is still valid as it is another penalty
__________
Worst. Logic. Ever.
So whenever you give away a penalty you can't be red carded for denying a clear goalscoring opportunity. Hmm....
It's a red card for the keeper, another penalty, and the manager sent to the stands.
They just get easier and easier :(
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the keeper gets a red card and the opponent gets a penalty while the manger should be sent off and whoever opposes gets sent off too
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No 5 Stonao said:
"but a off-the-ball foul is still a foul and seeing as it is inside the penalty area, a penalty should be given. the keeper sent off."
In the match against the Czech Republic, the Turkish goalkeeper committed an "off-the-ball foul" and got sent off, however no penalty was awarded.
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Penalty.
Red-card the keeper.
Yellow card the captain for trying to influence your decision.
Manager to be sent to the stands for running out the technical area.
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#18 HappyHammer73
The question in #11 doesn't say if it's a free kick or in open play. The phrase "lines up a shot" can be used in both situations.
However, if it's a free kick then you are right about the defenders having to keep their distance from the ball.
Either way, the ref should give a direct free kick. There should be a yellow card for the foul or red if the tackle was serious enough but since he was not the last man, it is not an automatic red card.
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Penalty Kick, send off GK for DOGSO, dismiss manager to the stands for failing to act in a responsible manner.
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Spot on 'supercheese', that's exactly what should be done. A little harsh u may say, but this is the correct action to be taken. I'd also sack the 4th official for letting the opposition manager to get onto the field!
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Where can you make suggestions for new scenarios? The layout is poor - sorry!
So what would happen if -
Penalty shoot out - penalty is taken, keeper goes the wrong way but the ball hits the post, rebounds along the line, hits the keeper's trailing foot and goes in - obviously goal awarded.
What is the striker shoots, and his momentum carries him forward and he falls over. In the meantime the ball rebounds of the post and hits the striker and goes in. Is a goal awarded? Please assume it is clearly obvious the striker was looking in the opposite direction when the rebound struck him.
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I think the important point here is
"The goal-keeper goes for the ball, and dives but makes contact with the player before making contact with the ball"
I would think that this definitely means a second penalty, however I would also say that timing between contact with player and ball and how the keeper has attempted to get the ball or foul the opponent would be a major consideration for the referee as to whether a red card or simply another penalty is the correct punishment.
I would say also I would look to see if any player has encroached into the area during the kick and hopefully some will have, as they usually do, then have the kick retaken for this offence.
This would then offer the penalty to the attacking team again whilst avoiding having to harshly send off the goalkeeper, and still all be within the laws of the game.
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Perhaps i'm being naive; but as it dosen't appear to have been a deliberate professional foul by the Keeper on the player, although a goal-scoring opportunity has been prevented- surely a yellow card only and another penalty?
Manager sent to the stands and possibly a follow-up investigation, Captain taken aside and cautioned (not necessarily a straight yellow).
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'jaywoody21' this is incorrect, if they stop a goalscoring opportunity then it is a sending off, whether deliberate or not. How many times have u saw someone going for the ball as the last man, but taking out the striker, it happens all the time.
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This one is all about the details...The key things to remember are; 1. the goalkeeper has had a bad game 2. the penalty kick was a poor one 3. If it's retaken the game will go to extra time and 4. You've already accepted a £50,000 bung from a Vietnamese 'business' associate to ensure that the game ends 3-2. Therefore you award an indirect free kick to the defending team because the penalty taker is in an offside position when the contact occurred.
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I think an important point to be added to the above is that the referee is in danger of losing control. He needs to make a priority of establishing his authority over both players and managers, and clearly refuse to be instructed by them in the rules of the game. He may wish to include a yellow card for dissent if he feels that the captain's protests are over the top.
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JimBobCoc
This is where you suggest new scenarios. Sometimes the Beeb will put up a blog with just the previous answer and ask specifically for new suggestions - http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/euro2008/2008/06/you_are_the_ref_answer_1.html
To answer your second point, No goal would be awarded as the penalty would be over as soon as it hit the post.
Not sure about the first question but I would assume it would not be given but I can't ever remember anything like that ever happenning in a shoot-out so not sure.
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Keeper and penalty taker are both "going for the ball", who can tell who's at fault when they contact each other-drop ball, book the skip, Gaffer to the stands, ignore sub request as Gaffer is no longer part of proceedings. Easy peasey, lemon squeezy!
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i think some of you are being very naive here.........obviously with regards to the manager in part 'c' you have to give him some leeway as he might have his information from some of the football pundits, with their impressive 'knowledge' of the game, and its laws.
Such as Andy Gray, who always says you shouldnt send someone off if a penalty has been given as this is punishing them twice. Doesnt work like that im afraid Andy.
For what it counts, i agree with everyone else here, got to be sent off, another penalty. Manager sent to the stands, though his assistant can make the substitution, if the team have any left. Caution for the captain of the opponents, who does he think is refereeing this game, him or the ref?
or maybe no caution for the captain, as the fa are trying to encourage no-one on a team to talk to the ref except the captain.
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Yeah I think this one is fairly obvious...obviously depends on the specifics of the keeper's challenge, but it's likely to be another penalty and a sending off for the keeper. The manager should never run onto the pitch and should probably be sent to the stands - and everything he said about not denying a goalscoring opportunity and substituting the keeper is a load of rubbish and makes no sense.
Jim BobCoc - of course there is no goal in the second scenario, the striker cannot take a rebound, accidental or not. Even if that happened in a game and not a shootout it would not be a goal as noone touched the ball in between the penalty-taker's 2 touches. If the ball rebounded in off the keeper in a shootout it would, of course, be a goal.
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JimBobCoc
I apologise, you were correct with your first point.
I found this when trawling the internet and you may be interested. If not just scroll on by.
Prior to a change in the Laws in season 1987/1988, the Penalty-Kick Law 14 was not clear in defining when a penalty kick had been completed; both when time had been extended at the end of a half to allow for the taking of a penalty kick, or when kicks are being taken from the penalty-mark to decide a winner after a match had ended in a draw.
The so-called 'Madrid Law' (more correctly the Mexico Rule!) sought to minimise future confusion, following a controversial penalty goal, scored by the French player Bruno Bellone in the classic 1986 Mexico World Cup Quarter Final game between France - Brazil.
The French player Bellone, hit the crossbar during the penalty shoot-out, and the ball came back out and hit the rear of Brazil goalkeeper Carlos and went into the goal. The Referee allowed the goal to count, and France went on to win 4-3 on penalties after a 1-1 draw following extra time. The Referee was Ioan Igna (Romania), and his linesmen were, Vojtech Christov (Czechoslovakia) and Lajos Nemeth (Hungary).
There was a lot of controversy about the French penalty kick at the time. But it was the Scottish Football Association who successfully sought clarification, by proposing the following Law 14 (Penalty Kick) change that was accepted at the 100th International Football Association Board (IFAB) meeting held at Bodysgallen Hall, Llandudno in Wales on Saturday 13th June 1987.
The approved text, was inserted at the bottom of the first paragraph of Law XIV, page 31 of the revised 1987/1988 'Referees' Chart and Players Guide to the Laws of Association Football', and was as follows:
"When a penalty kick is being taken during the normal course of play, or when time has been extended at half-time or full-time to allow a penalty-kick to be taken or retaken, a goal shall not be nullified if, before passing between the posts and under the cross-bar, the ball touches either or both of the goalposts, or the cross-bar, or the goalkeeper, or any combination of these agencies, providing that no other infringement has occurred."
The crux of this is that "No matter how many combinations of goalpost, crossbar, goalkeeper's body parts etc. are involved, if the ball ends up in the goal because of the energy imparted onto it by the kicker's boot, a goal should be allowed."
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There's an easy way out for the Ref: 'Keepers allways come off the line, the Ref could invoke the immortal Brian Glover as Mr Sugden the wannabe Bobby Charlton P.E. teacher in Ken Loach's Kes, give a retake and just tell the 'keeper, "ya moooved lad, ya mooooooved!!!"
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The player has clearly denied a goalscoring opportunity and as the last line of defence should be sent off. The attacking team should be awarded another penalty. No substitution would be allowed and the manager would be sent to the stands.
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I think i know this one, i knew some of the others but kept quiet incase i was embarrasingly wrong, heres my guess anyway:
The referee WILL award another penalty, but not send anyone off as the keeper hasn't denied a goal scoring oppurtunity, as the 1st penalty was the initial chance to score a goal.
i hope i'm not too far off!
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It's boring when the first person to see the blog nails it. ;)
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"The goalkeeper also goes for the ball and dives, but makes contact with the opponent before touching the ball."
This whole questions depends on how much contact was made. If the goalkeeper brushed him, without effecting the players ability to play the ball, it won't be a penalty. Football is not a non-contact sport. He won't necessarily of committed a foul, or prevented a goal-scoring opportunity.
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From part E, of course the ref should disregard any comments made by the manager. The ref's decision should never be influenced by a manager, on the field or off.
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The last player to touch the ball is the 'keeper whois also actually is the next player to touch it, he should therefore be judged to be "in possession" of the ball at all times and were there any contact, then assuming foul play, surely it's the keeper who has been fouled.
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Judging by the standard of refeering so far in Euro 2008 i'd wave play on and forget the whole thing.
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The solution is to send all 22 players and both managers off.
Then, place the ball on the penalty spot and invite members of the crowd to try and score/save the penalty, depending on which team they support.
That would be fun.
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The question is very ambiguous, on several points. This is one of those situations you would have to see.
For a start it does not say if the player goes to ground, But with the way players go down today it's more than likely he does.
It does not say how heavy the contact is, just that contact was made. Seeing as a blade of grass can bring down some of the players today, it does not have to be much contact.
The referee could decide that the player has dived, so the attacker gets booked.
The referee could decide that the player has gained an unfair advantage by blocking the goalkeeper with his body, therefore causing an obstruction. (a law use to little these days).
But if it is a straight forward as it seams to say then supercheese is correct.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Send everyone off, abandon the game! Support your local pub team.
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This one is easy.
Send of the Keeper and the Coach, then wait for the yellow car to come on the pitch, stop, backfire and the doors drop off!
Zico, Cico and Marco will then perform a hilarious comedy sketch involving buckets of water (which are really tinsel).
The penalty taker will then have a second attempt at a penalty, miss hit the cross bar and watch the ball sail over his own keepers head to give the 10 man team a 2 goal advantage.
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First and foremost, it is a penalty. The manager who came on to the pitch to remonstrate with the referee should be sent to the stands. The "clear goalscoring opportunity" rule, however, is unclear when it comes to a foul by the goalkeeper. If the penalty taker was running directly towards goal before being fouled, then it is a red card, but if he was running at an angle away from the goal, a caution is sufficient. Most likely here is a penalty, red card for the goalkeeper and the manager be sent to the stands.
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Just put Phil Jagielka in goal.
Problem solved.
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I think - Keeper is sent off unfortunately for being the last man and preventing a new goal scoring opportunity, by committing the foul. As the offence was committed in the area it is another penalty. Whatever the manager says when he runs onto the pitch is invalid - referee's decision is the only one that counts. I wouldn't be surprised to see the referee send the manager to the stands for stepping out of his technical area to remonstrate with the ref. Would love to see all this happen!!
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It can only be B.
The keeper has saved the first penalty, therefore play resumes as normal. Keeper brings down player, so you've got another penalty (no question) and he is clear on goal with no man behind the goalkeeper, hence the red card as well!!
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ZZZZzzzzzzzz!!!!
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How the keeper is doing in the match doesn't matter, nor does going into extra time, as a ref you have to judge the game as you see it, not how you've seen it.
The goal keeper should be sent off, a 2nd penalty given and the manager should also be sent to the stands. A substitution can still happen before the penalty, but only if the team has a substitution left.
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If the keeper made contact with the player before the ball this suggest the player is moving away from goal, no red card.
Caution the manager for entering the field of play, and warn the captian for his comments.
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The rules on this point are absurd, as so ably demonstrated in the Champions' League in 2005 when Liverpool played Chelsea.
Cech fouls and the linesman indicates, rightly or wrongly, that the ball has crossed the line, so the ref plays advantage, there's no penalty and the goalie stays on the pitch. (Didn't stop Mourinho moaning he was robbed, though...)
This is farcical, as it means a goalie, realising he is about to be sent off and concede a penalty, could "accidentally" help the ball over the line to dodge the bullet!
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Surely the referee will make his decision almost immediately and therefore the situations (A to E) shouldn't happen.
i.e If he has decided that the challenge warranted a penalty, he will point to the spot before the forward has had a chance to get back to his feet. If he deems it a sending off, the red card will also be issued before the captain has had a chance to talk to him, and in any case he should wave the captain away before he has a chance to argue with him.
If any player or manager continues to argue then he should be warned or cautioned.
If the manager wants to sub the goalie he would do this in the same way as any other substitution and not by asking the referee if he can do it.
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2. Brooksieblue, why is that nonsense? Look at the France vs Italy game. Toni had a chance, was fouled, red and penalty given, completely correct to the letter of the law BUT when you look at it, Italy still scored and the only net change was giving a 1 man advantage to Italy (although i would argue that the foul by Abidal actually created the Italians a goal scoring opportunity because it meant the chance to put Italy in front fell to a player who, unlike Toni, can actually finish). In that situation the letter of the law says Abidal should be sent off but, in this instance i personally believe the law is critically flawed as i would argue as the manager in this scenario does, the clear goalscoring opportunity hasnt been denied. A penalty is one of the clearest goalscoring opportunities in football and certainly has a BETTER chance of being scored than the position Toni was in.
4. BluestarMagic
"D:Cannot substitute his GK without the ref's permission and if the ref sends him off then the sub GK must come on for somebody else"
The first statement in this is incorrect. I have seen it happen, Manchester United playing in Europe, cant for the life of me remember who against. Horrific tackle by opponent on Denis Irwin, Ref goes over to Irwin's aid talking to physios mediating stretchering the broken legged Irwin from the pitch. Whilst this is occuring offending player, yet to have received his imminent red card is subbed off whilst the ref is distracted and therefore escapes punishment!
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Penalty.
Red-Card.
Coach sent to the stands for entrering the field of play.
The coach's assertion that the penalty somehow means a clear goal-scoring opportunity has somehow beeen denied is somewhat flawed in that penalties and red-cards go hand-in-hand with great regularity ( the France v Italy game in Euro 2008 being a recent example ).
Rightly, or wrongly, these are the rules, and the 'keeper can expect to walk as well as concede a spot-kick.
As for whether a substitute 'keeper can replace an outfield player, and then go between the sticks - I'm pretty sure this is the case also.
The only time an outfield player has to take over in goal is when all three subsitutions have already been made, or if there is no 'keeper on the bench.
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#11 -
It's entirely up to the referee what constitutes a goal-scoring opportunity. In this case, where the keeper is off his line and there are a large number of players in the way, I'd say that this is not an easy enough scoring situation to warrant a red card - the player would have to judge his shot to lob the keeper and all other players, but still keep it under the crossbar, all from about thirty yards - not easy.
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Re - 65.
I agree that a penalty is obviously a goal-scoring opportunity ( and usually better than the one that is often 'denied' ).
So, it does seem unfair that a team can be effectively doubly punished for what can be the most innocuous of challenges. In these circumstances the penalty ( and a caution ) seems fair punishment, unless the challenge itself was worthy of red-card.
On the other-hand, it seems equally wrong that if the foul is just outside the box, when the defender maliciously hacks down a player who would otherwise be clear through on goal, and that the net result is just an attacking free-kick. The defending team in this instance being able to re-group, form a defensive wall, and place defenders on the line etc.
In this instance perhaps a red-card is the correct punishment ?
Then again, it seems wrong that two similar offences end up being dealt with in two drastically different ways ?
Maybe the rules of football are just too darned complicated. Maybe the players themselves bring it upon themselves with their diving, gamesmanship and abuse of the rules ??
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Does no-one realise that this is an enitrely impossible situation. The picture clearly depicts a german player, probably meant to be ballack, missing a penalty!!! Where have you been all this time. Germans, in particular Ballack, DO NOT MISS PENS!!!
For the situation though, another pen clearly. 4th official decides the managers punishments and he wouldn't be allowed to make a sub on such short notice any way so that is irrelevant. Goalies don't tned to get red cards for fouling attackers because by that definition every time a kepper fouls an attacker it is almost always a red card. That rule tends to apply to outfield players mostly.
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"martceltic1 wrote:
No 5 Stonao said:
"but a off-the-ball foul is still a foul and seeing as it is inside the penalty area, a penalty should be given. the keeper sent off."
In the match against the Czech Republic, the Turkish goalkeeper committed an "off-the-ball foul" and got sent off, however no penalty was awarded."
There wasn't a penalty because the ball was already out of play when the offense occurred therefore the correct re-start was the throw-in, goal kick or corner.
I was refereein an U15's game and i'd given a drop ball due to injury and one player kicked the ball before the ball had bounced and the opposition manager was screaming for a free-kick however I couldn't give a free kick as the ball wasn't in play wen the player kicked it.
In a way Volkan commited his act of violent cunduct at the best time because a penalty could not have been awarded as the ball wasn't in play
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None, The penalty taker cant touch the ball until another player except the keeper has touched it.
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playergkd - if the goalkeeper saves it, then the striker is perfectly entitled to try to score the rebound. It's only if the ball rebounds from the posts, crossbar (or in the event of an absolutely shocking penalty, the assistant referee who may be standing near to the goal on the goal-line) that the striker can't touch it again
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just a penalty,give the goalkeeper a yellow card,send the ref back to his box
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just a penalty,give the goalkeeper a yellow card,send the manager back to his box
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Can't believe that no-one checked the official rules:
Until the 1st of July 2008, these rules apply:
The kicker touches the ball a second time (except with his hands)
before it has touched another player:
• an indirect free kick is awarded to the opposing team, the kick
to be taken from the place where the infringement occurred
* (see page 3)
The kicker deliberately handles the ball before it has touched another
player:
• a direct free kick is awarded to the opposing team, the kick to be
taken from the place where the infringement occurred * (see page 3)
The ball is touched by an outside agent as it moves forward:
• the kick is retaken
The ball rebounds into the field of play from the goalkeeper, the crossbar
or the goalposts, and is then touched by an outside agent:
• the referee stops play
• play is restarted with a dropped ball at the place where it touched
the outside agent * (see page 3)
Obviousley there does not seem to be anything in the rules about the keeper touching the penalty kicker in an effort to get to the ball, therefore under normal guidelines, you follow the existing rules and let the governing body argue at a later date, as there is no rule for this, you treat it as the kicker attempting to touch the ball before another player from the defending team and therefore an indirect free kick to opposing team.
I would probably book the keeper if he dived into player, if he was going for ball and player leans into him to create contact, I would book player.
Team captain gets booked for his actions, (Bet he would be a Man U player). Manager gets in the red card list for being a numpty.
Note the rule may change from the 1st of July, could not be bothered checking that.
If anyone interested in any of the rules, see page 45 to 47 of existing rules @
http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/lawsofthegame.html
Second note, does anyone expect Referees to know all these rules, have you read them, do they make any sense, why don't we just get a wee guy with a computer to access the net and a slow motion replay to decide, then we could get some great adverts in like the Americans, and we could play 400 minutes every game.
Or even better, why don't we get someone who can actually hit a penalty?
p.s. and this will be the last comment. Has anyone noticed how the ball bounces to the right of the keeper in the first picture, but the second suggests that it went to the left of goal? Or are am I just being paranoid about referees having a biased opinion against Celtic, they are all against us, :>) He he he he
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Thanks sexyjk,
I was a bit perplexed during that match as I was sure it should have been a penalty.
What happens then if the ball is in one penalty area but somewhere else on the field a player whacks another? If the ref is alerted to it by another official will he stop the play, send off the offender and restart with a dropped ball or wait for a break in the play and then deal with the offender? And will he definately not give a free kick where the offence occurred?
Thanks.
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The keeper is in possession of the ball, as the last person to play it, so it is a foul on the keeper.
Free kick, restart and stare intensely at all the protagonists with your bulging "Collina Eyes" and get on with the game.
Stop whingeing after cards and penalties all the time. Football is a man's game, no handbags allowed.
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Here,s the thing,it says the goalkeeper goes for the ball,but makes contact with the player, for a penalty to be given it has to be a deliberate foul,players make contact all the time,for instance 2 players jumping for a ball before one of them heads it.
In reply to 77 the last person to play the ball is not in possession,if he was in possession he would,nt need to dive to get it.
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Some very harsh decisions for the goal keeper.
Yes, it is another penalty, however, as it is a 50/50 ball, with both forward and keeper going for it, I wouldn't say it was a clear cut goal scoring opportunity. Who's to say the forwad would score if he reached it first and the keeper's hands are right in the way?
Third, the manager should be sent off for running on to the field of play, if he's gonna make the sub it has to come form his assistant, and the captain of the penalty taker yellow carded for telling you how to do you job (dissent).
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78, obviously a fan educated by the 'expert' pundits. Your use of the word delibrate is completely wrong in this context as intent is not in the law anymore apart from for handball and pass backs.
The law states exactly what was written in the question;
A direct free-kick must be awarded to the opposition if a player tackles an opponent touching the opponent before touching the ball. So, exactly what was said in the question.
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A German missing a penalty? I don't believe it.
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In reply to 69:
First of all --> ha ha ha
Secondly, the keeper resembles Jens lehmann.. especially through his hair.... so not only is the penalty taker german but also the keeper....you are in a real dilemma now dude....so if you were the ref what would you do? an opposing player has mistakenly taken the penalty for the other team! does the goal count? Would make a great you are the ref #11 dont you think......
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book the player for diving and his captain send all the othrs to the stand,award a free kick to the goalie and carry on.
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This is obvious, the keeper has stopped an obvious goal scoring oppurtunity by obstructing the player or fowling him. Therefore the rule clerly states this is a sending off offense. Also there should be a penalty and the crazy manager that ran on to the pitch should be sent to the stands.
simple!!
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Does any1 fancy goin out for a drink tonight? Bored oot ma bristol cities
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Here's a situation:
It's Spain vs Russia and Spain are winning 2-1. The game reaches its dying minutes and one of the Russian players have a hopeful shot from 40 yards. The shot looks like it's going comfortably wide and the goalkeeper doesn't even bother to move. But at the last second, the shot takes a cruel deflection off the referee's arm (who is standing inbetween the last defender and the goal keeper - so the ball has gone past every outfield player) and the ball goes straight into the top corner. All the spanish players are outraged and they all feel that the goal should not stand.
What do you do? Does the goal stand?
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Yes the goal stands. If the ball hits the referee anywhere else on the field then he doesn't stop play, this is the same.
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anyone got any DIFFICULT situations for us?
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Arthur Boruc is the most overweight player at Euro 2008, anyone agree?
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Would i not be right in thinking to have a goal scoring oppertuniy the attacking player should be in full control of the ball and in this situations the attacking player isnt therefore its a 50/50 and should be a definate penatly but the keeper only gettin a yellow card?
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no that's not the case, because if a player is in the box and knocks the ball past the keeper (and therefore doesn't have full control of the ball) and the keeper takes him out, then the keeper gets a red card and a penalty is awarded.
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the most overweight player is philip lahm....
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could be right there OutlawTorn, anyone else have any suggestions for fatties?
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ugliest player at Euro 2008? Jan Vennigoor of Hesselink.....
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Goalkeeper sent off.
Allow subsitution.
Retake Penalty
Warn managers.
this is a very emotional moment and things like this can happen... a warning is enough.
taking too rash a decision will not change the result of the game. but just create more controversy.
sometimes its better to be soft but stick to the rules.
so . Red card. subsitution and retake penalty. all happy.
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A. Penalty takers request for another penalty is valid.
B. Since the ball had touched another player, the denial of goalscoring opportunity applies here and the GK should be sent off.
C. Not only is the GK's manager incorrect, he must be yellow-carded for entering the field of play without ref's permission. As long as he does not commit dissent at this point, the yellow suffices.
D. The manager is perfectly entitled to sub his goalie at this point
E. While the manager should leave the field of play immediately, he need only be sent to stands if the yellow card is a second one, resulting in a send-off. The validity of his comments is irrelevant, since refs dont act upn these comments anyhow, but on the laws of the game.
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76. martceltic1
It would be an immediate whistle (unless there's a clear advantage to the team who's player got 'wacked'). A red card to the offender, and a direct freekick or penalty AT THE SPOT OF THE VIOLENT ACT.
Could even be a penalty all the way at the other end of the ground. If any of the twelve 'penalizable' offences happen, as long as the ball is in play, it is a direct/penalty from the spot of the foul.
Might sound weird, but it is indeed the rule.
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Sorry, I think there's actually only 10 'penalizable' offences, not twelve.
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Everyone is assuming that the ball is still in front of the goal. What if it had gone sideways and was rolling along the line and 5 yards from the goalpost. An impossible angle so it wasn't necessarily a clear cut chance. Also if the ball was in that position then as the keeper dived for it then it would be expected that he would have some contact with the striker.
My decision would be to give a free kick against the striker (because we all know that you can't even do so much as look at a keeper without getting penalised these days), and the rest of the scenario would be irrelevent
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Can someone please reply to pmurrays comments hes getting emotional
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The question as written is causing me some difficulties. It doesn't specifically state that play has been stopped, although I think that's a reasonable assumption. If not, I do hope someone took the ball up the other end and scored.
So, assuming the referee blew his whistle and stopped play as a result, the next question is which team to penalise. The description isn't really clear who has offended against whom. The two options are obviously striker fouling keeper, and vice-versa. The subsequent questions suggest that everyone else (in the scenario, I mean, not you guys (and girls?) suggesting answers) have assumed the ref was penalising the keeper, but it's not obvious that they were correct.
I prefer, so will look first at, the scenario where the striker is being penalised, because it seems to me that by the sound of things, the striker kicks the keeper as the keeper dives on the ball - either that, or the keeper has dived over the ball. Since the keeper touched the ball last, and unless it bounced a long way from him, it would seem to be his right to challenge for the ball - the striker certainly doesn't have it under control as described - and the striker has impeded him: hence the contact. It is obvious that there wouldn't be another penalty, and no red card for the goalie. Free kick to the defending team, unless advantage was played. Yellow for the striker if his attempt to kick the ball was dangerous. Manager of defending team sent to stands and told not to be an idiot. Captain of attacking team gets a yellow card for dissent - telling you the rules (about sending off the manager) implies that he thinks you don't know them; if a player comes right out and says 'Ref, you don't know the rules', he'd get a card: same should apply here -- unless he's right, and you'd forgotten :)
I have to say that if I were the ref here, I'd be very tempted to give the keeper the advantage just so I could make all the protesters look so daft ;)
The other alternative is the obvious, as everyone has said above. Penalty, red card keeper, manager to the stands, and yellow for the opposing captain as above.
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Finally, a realistic scenario. Well done to Paul Trevillon.
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2nd penalty and red card the keeper for denying the goalscoring opportunity. From then on it's man management. Caution the manager for entering the field, tell him to keep his oppinions to himself and send him back to the sideline. Similarly, tell the captain to hold his thoughts. Any further utterances from either the manager or the captain would be dissent and dealt with accordingly. Since play is clearly stopped allow the GK substitution when the manager is back on station.
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Manager to the stands for running onto the pitch. Don't disregard what he says (I don't know how you'd go about doing that), but since what he says is nonsense, that doesn't count for much.
I don't see how it's a penalty or a red card - it was a loose ball, two players went for it, and they collided. Shouldn't have even stopped play. Apologize to everyone for being a fool and restart play with a drop ball.
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I think it's all been said. The question for me was whether or not the ref should allow a substitution at that moment for the sub keeper to come on.
Then I remembered Jens Lehman in the Champions League final against Barcelona - Almunia came on as a sub before the penalty (and failed to save it).
I'm also sure that the manager has to be sent into the stands - to prevent him from running onto the pitch again upon the next decision that doesn't go his way.
I think the key is the fact that the initial penalty hits the keeper and not the post or the crossbar for example. Because of course if it did, that would mean that the penalty taker could not strike the ball again immediately after. But clearly the scenario describes the ball hitting the keeper.
I think the first guy to reply at number 1 has got it right.
The only part which has room for misinterpretation, possibly in order to support a trick question, was the fact that the scenario doesn't go into detail about the contact the keeper has with the player. "Contact" could be anything. It doesn't exactly describe the contact as "bringing down the player by his legs as he's about to shoot" for example. It could just be his shoulder against his and then grabs the ball.
However - the picture at the head of this page clearly is not just for decorative purposes but supporting material as part of the scenario. Which I think clears this point up.
So I don't think there's going to be a suprising answer on Tuesday, I think it's been said.
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Ok here's one for you:
Spain and Russia are playing a brilliant end to end game of football. With the score 0-0 Pavlyuchenko spots Andrei Arshavin next to the last defender, Carles Puyol. Arshavin is currently in an offside position, and spots the pass from Pavlyuchenko. As the ball is passed forward, Arshavin attempts to run into an onside position, when Puyol graps Arshavin and starts kissing him on the lips- prompting Arshavin to join in too. The pair fall on the ground locked arm in arm in a full passionate snog- with tongues- together as the pass comes forward.
As the referee, what do you do? Do you give an offside decision since Arshavin was offside, or do you give a free kick to Russia for a foul.
And do the two players get sent off, booked or get away with blatant kissy action?
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Sorry chaps, but I have not seen a correct answer yet.
The truth is that the penalty taker cannot strike the ball again unless a defender, other than the goal keeper, touches the ball.
So! The penalty taker is in error and it is a free kick to the goalkeeper.
The other issues are therefore moot.
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Penalty, book the goalkeeper as the striker is unable to score without another player touching it first, so it isn't a goalscoring opportunity. Manager can substitute his goalkeeper, but he should be sent to the stand for interferance.
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The striker CAN play the ball once another player touches the ball after his initial kick. In this case the goal keeper did therefore he is allow to play the ball.
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It's clearly a penalty (look at the picture you doubters - have you seen a more obvious foul?).
The only questions are whether it's a carding, and, if so, of what colour. Clearly a goal scoring opportunity was prevented - that the penalty will provide another is irrelevant - so any card must be red.
The only other potential issue is whether the fould was deliberate. That the keeper was having a 'mare was no doubt inserted to show that it clearly wasn't. Is it relevant though? The answer is no, as the words are quite clear, "denies an obvious goalscoring opportunity to an opponent moving towards the player’s goal by an offence punishable by a free kick or a penalty kick". No mention is made of intent.
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clear sending off and a penalty.
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very simple. the last point is correct, manager should not come on the pitch. but the referee has to disregard everything he hears and only listen to himself and his assistants.
point c is wrong. in normal play if a player is bought down as a last man with a scoring opportunity then a penalty and red is given. the penalty is a consolation for the opportunity that they were wrongly denied. simple. keeper ahs to be sent off for denying them a clear goalscoring opportunity by brining him down and it is another penalty. this one is simple, the manager aspect tries to overcomplicate it
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#27- True, Valkon did get sent off for a off the ball foul and no penalty was awarded, however in that case the ball was out of play. in this scenario, the ball is still in play and therefore a penalty should be given. nuff said.
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Oh, one point of clarification for some who seem confused. As soon as the penalty is legally taken and the goalkeeper has legally saved it, we are into a phase of open play.
This idea that the penalty is 'retaken' or the player has already been rewarded with 'the' obvious goalscoring opportunity.
We are in fact looking at anoter goalscoring opportunity.
So, to sum up -- ball is in open play; keeper scythes down attacking player while missing the ball.
Pretty straightforward scenario.
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You send the goalkeeper off and order his side to place an outfield player in goal as a substitution cannot be made until this passage of play is over and the fourth official has been duly informed.
You send the manager to the stands and recommend a touchline ban in your report. What he says should not influence you anyway as a. it is not within his jurisdiction to do so and b. a substitution can be made - after the penalty is taken - on the advice of his assistant.
You book the opposition striker for asking for a red card to be shown. It is not within his jurisdiction and is ungentlemanly conduct, whether he is correct in his thinking or not.
The only thing I'm unsure about is whether a sub can be made before the pen is taken...
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HKBCCAN, you're correct, the penalty taker can touch the ball after it has touched another player......assuming that the goal-keeper touched the ball when he "spills it", the rules state that the penalty taker can touch the ball a second time after another player has touched it.
Once the ball has been struck forward by the penalty taker, the ball is in play. As soon as the goal keeper touches the ball, the penalty taker is allowed to touch the ball again.
Law 12 of the Rules of Football describe fouls and misconduct. There are ten fouls described that if commited by a player inside his own penalty area, irrespective of the position of the ball, will result in a penalty being awarded. One of the fouls described is as follows; a player "tackles an opponent to gain possession of the ball, making contact with the opponent before touching the ball". From Law 12, a second penalty must be awarded.
Law 12 also describes sending off offences. One of these offences is described as follows; a player shall be shown a red card if he "denies an obvious goalscoring opportunity to an opponent moving towards the player’s goal by an offence punishable by a free kick or a penalty kick". From Law 12, and assuming the penalty taker was denied an obvious goalscoring opportunity, the goal-keeper must be sent off and shown the red card.
I would show the goal-keeper's manager a yellow card for deliberately entering the field of play without the consent of the referee. I'd show the penalty taker's captain a yellow card for unsporting behaviour. Both these offences are also covered by Law 12.
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Situation A - it is correct that the penalty take should take another penalty, this is because the player is denied a likely goal.
Situation B - the rules state thats its a red card offense. While harsh on the goal keeper if there was no intent, that is the rules.
Situation C - it is an offense for the manager to enter the field of play and advance from the technical area. Therefore the manager should be sent to the stands.
Situation D - the goalkeeper cannot be substituted if a red card is shown to the player. In fact a comment like this only backs up your case it was a clear penalty and a red card should be awarded. The only solution is for the defending team to substitute an outfield player for a reserve goal keeper and play with 10 men.
Situation E - it is correct that the manager should be sent to the stand. Its also important to ensure that the captain is aware of the person controlling the game and cautioned.
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I have a question for Ask the Ref.
Why was the Russian player Kolodin not sent off although the ball was judged out of play in the game against Netherlands? Surely he was still guilty of foul play/ungentlmanly conduct for which the 2nd yellow card should have stood irrespective of the linesmans decision
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A couple of points seem to have sprung up.
Firstly, the question of whether the underperforming and extremely camp goalkeeper intended to make the penalty-taker's foot shine so explosively. Quite simply, it's not relevant - there used to be a place in the laws for intent, but it was removed a good twenty years ago now. The fact of the foul is all that matters.
Secondly, the question of whether the captain deserves two yellow cards for dissent. It's an understandable argument - however, the referee's discretion comes into play here, and, under the circumstances, a yellow card for point B would be harsh. There's nothing to suggest he did anything other than say 'Send him off, ref!', and any reasonable referee would calm the situation and have a word with the captain.
For the captain to then come back and harangue the referee would certainly warrant a booking, but no more.
From the picture, it would seem that the penalty taker is playing for Germany, and would presumably be Michael Ballack, defending himself as his own captain. Perhaps the shock of facing a camp Bryan Robson mincing about the area made him as insane as the gibbering manager.
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#121:
The ball being out of play in the Kolodin incident is a red herring - except in the question of how the game should be restarted.
As for Kolodin being sent off (or not being sent off), the referee produced a 2nd yellow card for what he thought to be serious foul play. However, the linesman, who was in a better position to view the incident, informed him that the challenge was rather less violent than might have appeared, and was exaggerated by the Dutch player.
Consequently, and with great common sense, the referee accepted his assistant's better judgement, and rescinded his decision.
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A - penalty, player is fouled in the box during open play, no other option
B - If the referee believes that an obvious goalscoring opportunity has been denied by the goalkeeper through the foul he has committed, he should be sent from the field of play
C - Eh? Once the player has kicked the penalty, play resumes and any fouls committed are seperate from what has occured previously, I think the manager has had too many shandys to come up with that argument
D - If a goal scoring opportunity has been denied, the goalkeeper would be sent from the field of play which would not allow the goalkeeper to be substituted, the manager would have to replace the goalkeeper with one of his players already on the field and restart the game with one player less.
E - Manager should be sent from the field of play for entering it without the referees permission and be reported to the authorities accordingly
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This one is quite simple, and everyone seems to broadly agree really. Penalty, manager off, keeper off.
There's two controversial areas.
1. Can they make a substitution?
My understanding is that it's up to the ref! I can't be bothered to trawl through the full laws of the game to find some clarity, so I await Mr Hackett's answer!
2. What to do with the complaining captain?
In this situation, I think he can be forgiven for trying to get the penalty. But directly requesting the dismissal of another player MUST result in a booking - this is a rule that should probably be enforced more! It's seriously bad sportsmanship.
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Another penalty, manager sent to stands, no cards for keeper. It would be the same as any tackle in the box, in my book. I guess I'd have to see it to judge. Fouling a player in the box is not prima facie evidence for a red card for the keeper. A foul in the box, all the same, would result in a penalty. For running onto the pitch, manager is sent to the stands.
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#123
Interesting comment.
So the ball being out of play was irrelevant as the Linesman indcated the ball had crossed the line.
So we return to the fact the the Russian was clealry guilty of foul play and should have been carded.
As for the linesman being in a better position he was on the opposite side of the pitch to the incident so can not see how he had a better view.
He only called the referee to point out that the ball was out of play.
Clearly a big mistake by the referee in withdrawing the card.
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I'll award a penalty because the keeper stopped a goal-scoring chance. But I'll leave the goalkeeper on the field because he went for the ball, so it wasn't an intentional foul.
I'll also send the goal-keeper's manager to the stands, he shouldn't have ran into the field. I won't allow him make any substitutions from that moment, including substituting the goal-keeper.
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+128
If the Dutch player had exaggerated as you suggest it would have been him being booked.
But as I understood referees normally stick with their original decision unless the card is later rescinded by a UEFA committtee. Clearly the referee got confused by bthe situation
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I have a question.
Imagine that the goalkeeper fails to get anywhere near the ball. The penalty is badly taken, scuffed, rolls gently against a post and comes to a halt without crossing the line. The keeper then brings down the penalty taker.
As no-one has touched the ball since the penalty taker did, he cannot touch it again (correct me if I'm wrong here, but I'm sure that's true.) If he can't touch the ball, he can't score, and logically it can't be a goalscoring opportunity.
It would still be a penalty, but presumably the referee would have no grounds to send the keeper off, and the manager could bring him off.
Or am I making things up? I'm really not sure about this.
Oh, and furthermore - if the keeper is not sent off, am I right in thinking that he cannot be substituted until AFTER the penalty is taken?
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#127 and #129:
The Dutch player should have been booked for diving, as there was very little if anything to the challenge.
But the referee is perfectly within his rights to make a decision after consulting with his assistants - that's why they're called assistants. If he did anything wrong, it was in producing the card BEFORE consulting his assistants.
And #127 in particular - how do you know what the assistant said? Fluent in both lip-reading and Slovak? The fact remains that, if the linesman saw that it was a dive, he's entitled to tell the referee, and the referee can adjust his decision accordingly.
Lubos Michel is an unusually capable referee, which is why he gets so many big games. The idea that he'd decide, for some unfathomable reason, that the ball being out or not being out affects whether or not the foul is a bookable offence is frankly bizarre.
Either the challenge constituted serious foul play, or it didn't. Crossing the line is, as I said, completely irrelevant - why would the referee change his mind on that basis?
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Ok, 131.
Are you trying to tell me that you would consult your assistant over an incident that you as the ref are 10 yards from and the assistant is 70 yards from. Why then did play restart with a goal kick and why did he rescind the yellow card, becuase he does not know the laws. There is no way on this earth that his assistant told him not to send off the defender as he didn't think it was worth a yellow. Utter tripe.
Michel made an error, and then bottled it, simple as that.
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Rather easy:
1) The coach will be sent to the stand as under no conditions he is allowed to enter the field.
2) The Penalty taker's captain should be given the yellow card for not minding his own business, he clearly doesn't shut up!
3) The Referee decides when the penalty kick has been completed. If he decides that it was completed, he can give the goallie a red card and allows for another penalty. The goallie can be replaced by another goallie or a field player depending on how many subs have been made. If the ref decides that the penalty kick was not completed, he allows the kick to be retaken.
The goallie cannot be replaced between penalties unless he was red carded.
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Where is the ball and other players in relation to the goal? If the ball is in the corner of the penalty area near the touchline (like when Rustu came out the other night, but further from the goal) and 3 defenders are between it and the goal at the moment of the foul then surely it is not a clear goalscoring opportunity, so no red card for the keeper. The information provided doesn't make this clear, so it's hard to say.
The rest is pretty straight forward, just as the first respondant had described.
Of call this is all hypothetical because as everyone knows Germans don't miss penalties!
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"As no-one has touched the ball since the penalty taker did, he cannot touch it again (correct me if I'm wrong here, but I'm sure that's true.) If he can't touch the ball, he can't score, and logically it can't be a goalscoring opportunity."
The keeper has touched it to make the save.
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Free kick to goalie's team.
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manager sent to the stands, goalkeeper can be substituted and the penalty should be awarded
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The pic is a bit ambigious, for a start when making contact withe the player he's diving the wrong way given the direction the ball is shown moving from the save, 2 that looks like the striker blatently trailing a foot to gain a penalty and a red card, in which case the striker should be carded for unsporting behavoir and the defending team awarded a free kick. Manager to stand and captain carded.
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I remember a similar situation with Edwin Van Der Sar and Alan Shearer in a fulham newcastle match! Apart from all the manager stuff!
Result of that was Yellow Card for Edwin! Penalty awarded which Alan amazingly missed again!
As for the manager his gone and captian is yellowed!
You will prob think that a yellow is mild for the Keeper but a red should only be issued if there is intent on denying a goal scoring opertunity! In this situation it dont seem like that!
Wonder if Alan remembers that one!
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Presumably to promote debate, there is considerable ambiguity both between the written question and the illustration, and in the question itself. There is no clarity as to whether a deliberate infringement occured as a result of the goal keepers action (attempting to play the ball and making contact with another player is not in itself an infringement, and the illustration would certainly not suggest culpability on the goalkeeper's part), there is no clarity as to where the ball ended up (the picture suggests that the ball was deflected for a corner) and crucially there is no indication as to whether the whistle has been blown.
If the whistle has not been blown, (or the ball gone dead which is what logically would appear to have happened) it is unimaginable that the referee has the time to listen to the various submissions made by all the parties, and one can only commend the fitness of the manager who has managed to sprint from the half way line to the goal area to make two contributions to the debate. The referee is obviously not Portugese as the Lisbon treaty requires that you do not listen to anyone and particularly anyone who says no.
As the goalkeepeer has not been seen to commit a transgression, nor does the narrative suggest that he has, and as the illustration suggests that the penalty taker has collided with the goalkeeper without any apparent attempt to play the ball, as his left foot is at least 400mm away from the ball in the illustration at the point of contact, I suggest, from the evidence presented that the correct decision is a free kick out for the clumsy challenge (dangerous play) on the keeper.
In the event the whistle hasn't sounded, and the ball has not gone dead, then I suggest play should be waved on as the defenders have obviously punted the ball away (I cannot see how the goalkeeper could have regained possesion from the illustration) and you are playing advantage for the defending team.
At the next dead ball (or in the event of the free kick) appropriate sanctions can then be issued to the manager and the penalty takers' team captain.
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Penalty, Give a yellow card to the goal keeper and send the referee to the stands for disrespect. Yellow card because he also got the ball, because it wasn't like it was totally out of his reach and he hacked the player down.
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How come the 'You are the Ref' Question #7 was never answered?
I want to know what would happen in the second ball incident.
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I would give the second penalty and if the penalty being scored means extra time i wouldn't send the keeper off. I would give the keeper and caption a yellow card and send the manager to the stands. After all you are the ref and it is your decision. I think this is a fair decision, regarding the situation in the match.
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143.:
It's not really up to the ref, actually. Decisions like this are up to the laws, and the specific actions that happen.
There are seven cautionable offences, and seven sending-off offences, and they're seven entirely different things.
If the ref decided that it WAS a foul denying a goal-scoring opportunity, but failed to send the player off, that ref would be in line for some disciplinary measures a la Andy D'Urso for failing to send Barry Ferguson off vs. Southampton even though he was informed by the 4th that he had been cautioned twice.
In fact, depending on the perceived impact on the outcome of a match, a referee's failure to apply the laws correctly could even result in a replayed match (and rightly so).
It's not up to the refs which laws to uphold and which ones not to.
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"Wonder if Alan remembers that one!"
wonder if alan remembers the time he kicked neil lennon of leicester city in the face, and then threatened to pull out of the england squad if disciplined by the fa. what a wonderful guy he is!!!
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1. Another penalty.
2. Red card for the goalie.
3. Goalie's manager should not have run on the field and should be sent to the stands.
4. Obviously, the goalie's team gets to substitute the goalie, although it they use a susbstitute they must withdraw a field player.
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B...i reckon
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Mmmmm beans on toast. :D
It can't have been an England penalty that's for sure, it would have sailed way over the bar.
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A: The penalty taker claims another penalty
B: The penalty taker's captain insists the goalkeeper has denied an obvious goalscoring opportunity so it should be another penalty and the goalkeeper must be sent off
C: The goalkeeper's manager runs on to the field and says it is not a sending off as the goalscoring opportunity is still valid as it is another penalty
D: The manager then insists he will substitute his goalkeeper before the second penalty is taken
E: The penalty taker's captain insists the manager should be sent to the stands the moment he ran onto the pitch, therefore you must disregard all of his comments
This is what I'd do after each situation occurred:
A: Award the penalty.
B: Show a Yellow card to the penalty taker's captain for trying to get the goalkeeper sent off.
C: Explain to the goalkeeper he didn't touch the ball, and red card him.
D: Send the manager into the stands for entering the field of play, and not allowing any substitute until the next break in play, forcing an outfield player to go in goal for the penalty.
E: Warn the player that he is already on a yellow for the same reason, and further unsporting conduct will result in a red card for him too. Note A-E down for post-match reference, and then allowing the penalty to commence.
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A) Happens, aslong as its not too 'unsporting' in the way it is claimed.
B) Give the penalty. Give the captain a warning on his conduct and that you make the decisions. He now has a verbal warning
C) Send the manager off for entering the field of play without permission nd questioning your decision
D) Tell the manager that he has been sent off so cannot make the substitution. Also the goalkeeper has already been sent off, so the substitue 'keeper will have to come on for another player
E) The captain has already had a warning about his conduct, so now you warn him again, this time with a yellow card. If this is his second of the game he must there for walk aswell. You decide what happens, and have already done so
So as you can see it is basically the same as what everyone is saying
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Give another penalty to the team, a yellow card to the goalkeeper because it was a 50/50 ball then send the manager to the stands without allowing any substitutions and ignore any comments from the other teams captain.
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If the goalkeeper has made contact with the player before the ball this suggests that either the goalkeeper has made no attempt to play the ball, in which case, straight red card and take another penalty. However the goalkeeper has dived over the ball in a hurried attempt to play the ball and unwillingly made contact with the striker, but I think that the ref's final decision should be based on where the ball has ended up, because we don't know that the ball may have ended up in the net.
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The whole thing is ridiculous.
In the cartoon the penalty taker is German.
When did a German last miss a penalty?
Who was the only England player not to miss in the shoot-out against Portugal in 2006?
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I would send the manager to the stands, send off the goalkeeper as it was a clear goalscoring opportunity and warn the penalty takers captain that I am the referee and do not need his help in making decisions. If he persisted I would book him.
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bigbrenriley
The answer to question number 7 appears under question 8.
The url is this if you can't find it:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/euro2008/2008/06/you_are_the_ref_8.html
Regards
Andrew
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As a Referee, that the football body have given me great responsibility to empire the game. There is a rule which say that:
" fouling the last player with the ball in the circumference of scoring should be awarded a penalty and the player at fault be sent off"
So the Referee must follow what the rules says.
And for the Coach, he should be sent off to the stands, no doubt. it is the right thing for the Referee at any time to do
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NO penalty is given.
A free-kick to the goalkeepers side.
The penalty taker cannot attempt to kick the ball again. He is OFFSIDE.
No penalty.
Yellow card for the arguing captain.
Red card for manager as he shouldnt enter the field of play.
=)
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I think it would probably be best if you didn't exist any more (jimmybgreen)
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Send the manager off for being on the field of play. Yellow card the penalty taker for foot up, yellow card to team captain for being argumentative award a free kick to the keeper.
After the game go to my new home in my new car . Get packing as the flight tickets have arived to take me to my new Villa in Santander.
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Have to go along with the posters that question how the goalkeeper can reach the player before the ball and vice versa. The only way would be if the ball were to bounce straight up and high after the save.
If this were the case and the keeper was going to catch it as it fell then when the two players collide it is clearly a free-kick for a foul against the goalkeeper.
With all the fuss about people running on the pitch you simply warn the manager and tell him to return to his dugout as it isn't a penalty as that would be against the laws of physics as we know it. The captain should be booked for trying to get someone else booked.
If Keith Hackett disagrees it would be consistent with the terrible quality of refereeing in this country.
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106 (Jonaldo)
I suppose the ball could have rebounded straight to the attacker's feet and as the keeper was coming out, the attacker knocks the ball past him (but away from goal) and the keeper then would miss the ball but take out the attacker.
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Fernando Torres is through on goal with only the keeper to beat in the first minute of the semi final. Russian keeper slides, doesn't get the ball and fouls Torres denying a clear goalscoring opportunity.
THe ball rolls however to David Villa who is 15 yards out with an open goal. Villa goes down feigning cramp instead of scoring. He's decided that a penalty and a red card for the Russian keeper are better than the ref playing the advantage and Spain receiving a goal, particularly since it's only the first minute.
The ref obviously can't prove he's faking cramp (even though it's the first minute!), but is the fact that Villa doesn't try and score an easy chance enough to show that there was no advantage, and the Russian keeper should be sent off?
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personally i don't think a ref would award a penalty or send the keeper off just for the fact that if in doubtthey should protect the keeper.....and he has every right to go for the ball whcih he did but the 4th official would send the manager to the stands
as for an in-diect free kick in the area nit in this situation but i have seen it happen - derby v crewe a couple of years ago ...an off the ball incident no card shown and believe it or not there were 11 men on the goal line for crewe and they still conceded!
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Firstly the referee will take no notice from comments from others...
So here is my process...
1) Remove the manager – dump him in the standings - or on Sunday the location away from pitch - report him for mis-conduct...
Ideally you should do sending off's first... but in this case I would make it clear - it is my decision making process and therefore using some management skills, I would proceed to…
2) Caution the defender for dissent or unsporting
3) Send off the goal-keeper in if my opinion he prevented a goal scoring chance
4) Award a penalty
5) Allow the substitute process to occur in accordance with law..
6) Penalty to be taken in accordance with law..
I hope this is ok SIR….
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Why are we even debating this? We got the correct outcome in the very first comment. So why do we keep getting 'Mr I Think I Know Everyhting About Football' putting their 'rules of the game' forward to try and impress folk? Newsflash: It's not.....
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162 (ray564k)
I know it's a hypothetical question but in this situation David Villa may be offside.
The ref would also have to give a signal to show that he was playing advantage but if Villa went down and didn't take "advantage" of the situation then the ref would have no choice but to blow the whistle and take whatever action he deems appropriate.
Even if Villa does score, the ref can still go back and send the Russian goalie off if it is deemed a serious enough tackle.
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166. Spot on son
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Although going with the way most refs work, they wouldn't send off the keeper as they will feel that a goal conceded is enough punishment, even though they should show the keeper a red card.
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A. Only a penalty if the goalkeeper DELIBERATELY felled the opponent and had no intention opf playing the ball.
B. If he DID intend to foul the opponent then a penalty should be awarded and the goalkeeper should be sent off for preventin THAT PARTICULAR goal scoring opportunity..
C. The manager should be sent to the stands.
D.The goalkeeper can be substituted before the resulting penalty is taken.
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OLD CHESTNUT.
This is a question that has appeared on many referees quiz nights and you may already have covered it. If you have not then it is a good question and seldom answered correctly.
DEFENDER IS IN CONTROL OF THE BALL AND IS TRIPPED BY AN OPPONENT JUST OUTSIDE THE DEFENDERS OWN PENALTY AREA.
REFEREE RIGHTLY AWARDS A DIRECT FREE KICK TO THE DEFENDING TEAM AND THE DEFENDER PASSES THE BALL BACK TO THE GOALKEEPER WHO MISSES IT COMPLETELY AND IT ROLLS ON INTO THE NET.
WHAT IS THE CORRECT REFEREES DECISION IN THIS CASE?..
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169:
WRONG!!! It doesn't have to be a deliberate foul to be a sending off, if they try to play the ball but clearly take out the striker and they are the last man then its a straight red. Simple as that...
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170.........
i believe it has been covered before anyway, but here is the answer.....
it is a corner to the opposing team. A free kick for one team cannot be turned into a disadvantage if it goes into your own goal. therefore it is a corner.
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166....
correct. Although my understanding was that if, for example, a player on the line handles the ball to try and stop a goalscoring opportunity (by saving the ball) and it goes in anyway, then the defender will be cautioned and not sent off as ultimately they did not prevent a goal.
would be the same in this situation i feel if Villa stuck the ball in the goal. Unless it is a very bad tackle as you point out........
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it would be interesting what would happen on a sunday morning...
most players are just coming in from the night before....
and I personally like having my front teeth!!!!
the only thing I may do different is not send the keeper off.... it depends now clear it is... maybe a caution for a trip - ball is there to be won!!
i would still award a pen... still bounce the manager and caution the defender...
so mr murrary - you seen to what to comment on everything... like it or not - it is different doing a semi pro / pro to a sunday morning div 6 when it is windy and raining...
but all have one thing in common - i have never meet a player or supporter who knows the rules...
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i always thought the game of football had 'laws' not 'rules', hence the LOAF...?
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I'd have to say that its a penalty and a red card and the manager shold probably be sent to the stands.
I wouldn't be surprised though if the 'keeper was only given a yellow in a real game and the manager told to get off the pitch!
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Also, tell the captain to keep his mouth shut and book him if he refuses
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bcfcblock 17:
I have played the game at a high level, Scottish division 1 (well highISH), so I don't need silly childish comments like that. You just stick to your Pro Evolution Soccer on the Xbox wee man...
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The moment the goalkeeper fails to control the ball, " the counter is set to zero. it is the same as if the goalkeeper was going out to challenge an oncoming forward. The rule is clear that contact with the player before touching the ball in the penalty area results in a penalty.
Whether or not the keeper is sent off depends on the circumstances of the contact, which we are not given.
assuming the keeper made a genuine attempt to save and made incidental contact; the keeper should be given a yellow card and a penalty kick awarded.
The rest is just a sideshow.
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Once the penalty has been struck, the ball is deemed to be back in open play. Since the goalkeeper has brought down the penalty taker in open play, denying a goal-scoring opportunity, the goalkeeper must be sent off, and another penalty awarded.
The goalkeepers manager should be sent to the stands as he is not allowed on the field of play. The substitution should however be allowed as the penalty has been awarded, and sunsequently the ball is out of play, and timer is stopped.
The penalty takers captain should be booked for interfering in the situation, and instructed that any further interference will lead to a sending off.
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PaulMurray
Your racist posts yesterday suggest you are more likely on your school holidays than a former professional footballer.
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martceltic1 (says it all, 'celtic')
Racist?? Do u know what racist means little boy?
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No need to insult me because of my login name.
In answer to your question, a racist is someone who disparages people, or treats them differently because of their ethnic or racial background.
Your reference to the choice of cuisine of some Asian people was clearly racist and unsurprisingly, that is why it was deleted.
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In every game I've ever seen, and that's over 50 years worth, there's been ample evidence that soccer is a contact sport.
So therefore the fact that the goal keeper makes contact with the penalty taker before playing the ball is not of itself a foul.
Moreover in recent times it has become fashionable to wrap goalkeepers in cotton wool to that extent merely glaring at a goalkeeper could get you sent off.
Answer: free kick to the defending team due to unfair/dangerous challenge on the goal keeper.
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Paul Murray - your an angry little fella aren't you!!!???
I do have to agree with your earlier comment of how frustrating it is when idiots come on here spouting out what they think the answer SHOULD be and not what the answer is going to be!
In saying that just because you have played the game at effectively semi pro level (if that high ;-) ) doesn't give you license to be obnoxious in this forum - atleast attempt a little wit with your put downs!!!
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(SaintsCanada 144)
Yes laws are there to be enforced but sometimes its down to the situation of the match itself!!
for example if there are not many fouls in a game the ref will not give a yellow straight away but a caution. But if the game has consistent fouling the yellow cards are flying everywhere if a ya know what i mean.
So in the situation of this game with extra time close at hand i do think the ref will make a fair decision and he wont be disciplined for doing so, due to the circumstances!!
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I think i'll go and eat worms ;)
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Well the manager needs to be sent to the stands, no question. To be perfectly honest I don't think there is enough information to decide anything else. Just because 'contact' was made doesn't necessarily warrent another penalty or any cards for anyone. Soccer is a contact sport. Man up. But by the letter of the law if the GK does commit a foul there it IS another PK and a red for the man...
A ref should disregard the comments made by the manager anyway, make your own decisions!
With regard to the substitutions, if I recall correctly only a stoppage in play is needed, the manager could certainly change GKs if the ref allowed it.
Naturally, if you awarded a PK and sent the GK off, this point becomes moot.
If you've made your decision and the other team's captain is STILL trying to tell you what to do, give him a yellow.
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187 :-) Touche!
Now we're getting somewhere!
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I am getting more and more frustrated. I've just found this topic " You are the Ref" but I can't find a way to access Hacket's answers to anything other than the last questionn No 11. HELLLLLLLPPPPP !!!!!!!!!!
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I reckon if Arshavin is the scorer then it should count as I have him in a work sweepstake for goals in the tournament!!!!!!!!
On a more serious note.
Firstly the game should be stopped after the deliberate push on the ref which is deemed as ASSAULT of a match official.
Secondly Linesman unsighted ??? Is he looking at them German Birds in the crowd from last night?
NO GOAL END OF
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