- 4 Jun 08, 03:23 PM
Welcome back for the second edition of a special Euro 2008 version of You Are The Ref.
Today's question
A defender is off the pitch receiving treatment and you have clearly told him to remain on the sideline until you signal for him to return. Spain are on the attack and Fernando Torres receives the ball outside the penalty area, runs through the defence, rounds the goalkeeper and taps the ball towards the empty net. As he turns to celebrate his goal the defender who was off the field receiving treatment sprints back on to the pitch without waiting for your signal to invite him on and performs a last-ditch goalline clearance.
How would you deal with this situation?
Use the comments field below to give your answer. Thank you to TigerSarjo for posing the question. There will be another opportunity to pose your suggestions for You Are The Ref on Friday.
Now it is time to revisit yesterday's question:
Here's a reminder of Tuesday's question
A player scythes down an opponent, two-footed, over the top - a definitive red card offence. However, the ball bounces kindly for the other team and they have an excellent chance of scoring. You allow play to continue, making a mental note to send the player off next time there is a break in play. The goal opportunity is denied by a miraculous one-handed save by the goalkeeper. A team-mate instantly kicks the ball upfield to the player, who should have been sent off. He is played onside by the player he hacked down and he goes on to score.
Should the goal be allowed? Should the goalscorer still be sent off? What you would do in this situation?
Keith Hackett's answer
It is not advisable to apply an advantage with a RED CARD offence. But in this case, with an obvious clear-cut goalscoring chance, I would wait THREE SECONDS and if the ball had not entered the goal I would stop play and dismiss the player.
I certainly would not have allowed play to continue in the way that the question suggests and I believe I speak for all referees officiating in EURO 2008.
This question is now closed.
To see the answer from You Are The Ref's Keith Hackett click here.
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Mm.....I would give a yellow card and a penalty to Spain....
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its a bounce ball for spain
defender either sent off or booked for dissent
i think....
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He's denied Spain a clear goal, and has come onto the pitch without permission - surely this adds up to a dismissal?
And I guess it also constitutes a foul in the box - so a penalty should be given too
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The defender would have denied a clear goalscoring opportunity and that would constitute a red card.
He should also have gone round to the halfway line to re-enter play, so that's a second offence. Even if the denial of the goal is only a yellow card offence, the latter would also be and the defender would be sent off for 2 yellow cards.
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I'd suggest that Spain are awarded a penalty and that the player sneaking back on is booked.
I'd be tempted to award the goal and book the player but I am not convinced there's anything in the laws of the game that would allow a ref to do that....
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I think it would be a yellow card for the defender for re-entering play without the ref's permission. As for how to restart play, I would have thought it would be a drop-ball from where the defender cleared it from.
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Red card for the defender - that's the easy decision.
The offence though should result in an indirect freekick to Spain. But as the clearance would have been from the goal line, I would make the opposition players stand at least 10 yards from the ball, making it easy for Spain to score from the resulting freekick.
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The defender should be shown a yellow card for dissent.
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Sending off and a penalty; 1 yellow card for entering the field without referees permission, and 1 yellow card for a display of dissent.
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It would result in a indirect freekick inside the penalty area, and the defender should be sent of for ungentalmanly conduct and disobeying the referee......
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Letter of the law would say yellow card and drop-ball I think.
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This is a tough one, perhaps the player should be booked as he is violating a direct instruction from the ref and could be interpreted as descent and as he has commited an offence there should be an advantage to Spain so I would award a Penalty.
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If i was the ref i would give the player a yellow card and allow the goal for torres....and leave myself enough time to think what an easy job i have!
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So in answer to the first you are the ref Keith Hackett decides to answer a different question. NO FAIR.
So in answer to today's question a sneak preview straight from Keith Hackett:
"I would have let the player join play before the goal had been scored. The player would have been active so no infringement had occured."
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Play stopped, drop-ball outside the area with Spain attacking.
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i would just like to point out yesterdays question i got right!!!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Crikey - great poser TigerSarjo!!
I think that sending the player off for ungentlemanly conduct would be in order - if thats what CAN be done (or maybe just a yellow card if this is the maximum punishment, but anything less than a Red would illicit massive protests from the Spanish team/management).
As for a re-start, a drop ball would seem to be fair as suggested, but then again the opposition would line up on the goal line to prevent Spain from merely whacking it in.
If I could, I would give an indirect free kick from ten yards from the incident.
Basically I haven't a Scooby Doo.
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i heard of a similar situation in our amateur league recently. there was an important difference though - apparently a substitute ran on and fouled a player who was through on goal. the decision was a yellow card for the sub and a free-kick (indirect i think). i would say then that in this situation it would be a yellow card and indirect free-kick. morally however it should be a red but will be interested to hear the correct decision.
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forgetting what rules may apply in this scenario the referee should not give a penalty but reward torres the goal instead. if the ball was clearly going in the goal should stand and the player be booked
i wouldnt send him off if i allowed the goal.
i would perhaps consider dismissal if i awarded a penalty instead - he has denied a clear goalscoring chance!
can you imagine if it was a vital match though and torres missed the resulting penalty and spain went on to lose - you have to do what is fair and i think a goal given is the only thing to do
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it would be a yellow card and a drop ball
i know because i have just compleated my first fa ref's couase
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The player would recieve a yellow card for entering the pitch without the refs permission. This happened in a game i played in.
However the fact that there was a goalscoring opportunity the player is likely to recieve a red card for stopping a goal scoring opportunity. As i suppose it would be deemed the same as if he handled on the goal line.
The goal cannot be given because the ball had not crossed the line, and maybe the ball woudl of actually stopped on the line, you cant actually prove it was about to go over!!
I think a penalty could be awarded but more than likely an indirect freekick.
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I would award a penalty to Spain and dismiss the defender in question with a red card.
The player has denied a goal scoring opportunity and shown considerable disrespect to me, the ref, in coming back onto the pitch without being told to do so.
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My first thought:
Defender gets a yellow card and Spain are given an indirect free kick on the edge of the six yard box.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This one is easy
The offending players team should be booted out of the competition and be replaced by England as the whole tournament has lost credibility due to our absence.
Or alternatively the defender could be sent off and a penalty awarded to Spain
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I initially thought a yellow is what must be given according to the law, but he's denying a clear goalscoring opportunity so a red card. In regard on how to continue play, I would say an indiret freekick.
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I'm not sure it would be a penalty, I'd class it as an obstruction.
So an indirect freekick and a red card for the defender.
However, as the ball is on the goal line the defending team wouldn't be able to stand in the way of the ball so it'd end up as a spanish goal anyway.
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Its obvious...... Tony Gale just had to be sent off!!
Seriously, I'd say red card and penalty!
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Red card and indirect free-kick where the illicit defender touched the ball.... I reckon
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I'd have to award a penalty to Spain and dismiss the infringing defender...sorta the same scenario as a professional foul when denying the opposition a clear scoring chance. Can't see how a drop ball or indirect free-kick would be fair to Spain as the ball was certain to go in.
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I would caution the offending player for entering the feild of play without my permission, then I would award an indirect freekick to Spain in the penalty area.
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Red card for the player - serious foul play deliberately seeking to obtain an advantage by breaking the rules of the game, or 'cheating' as it's better known. There are multiple yellow-card offences committed: unsporting behaviour; dissent by action; re-entering play without permission
Restart of the game could be by drop ball or indirect free-kick, depending on exactly which reason the ref would prefer for stopping play, in the position the offence occurred - i.e. on the goal line. I'd have thought it would be equally outside the spirit of the game for a player from the penalised team to contest the drop-ball or free-kick, and if they did, they should be sent-off as well - and I'd tell the captain of the cheating team that I planned to do so.
In other words, red-card the cheat and award a goal to the cheated-against team.
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Keith Hackett hasn't answered Tuesday's question. It said "What would you do in this situation?". All Keith Hackett has said is that he wouldn't get into this situation.
I still want to know the answer to "Should the goal be allowed?"
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I would book the player for entering the field of play without permission. I would then attempt to persuade the opposition captain, to let Torres kick the drop ball into an empty net, so that the goal can stand.
With a bit of luck, and a sympathetic captain, everyone would be happy, and the laws would've been upheld.
Of course if the captain does not agree to stand back, then I would be compelled to give an indirect freekick to Spain, where the player entered the field of play.
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The defender was told to emain on the sideline until the refrees approval- The player ignores the ref and denies a goal, the player should get sent off, and the ball given back to Spain.
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I would send the player off as he would have wrecked what would have been a perfectly legitimate and wonderful goal from our legendary number 9.
Steve Bennett, however, would have probably sent Torres off for pointing the incident out if it was Liverpool V Man United
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Having had a similar situation in a game, the play is stopped, yellow card to the defender for re-entering play without the consent of the referee and play is restarted with an in-direct free kick to Spain, as the ball hadnt crossed the line.
Agree ?
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What is and what should be are two completely different things ... especially in football.
I think the rules probably allow for a red card, possibly under 'denying a clear goal scoring opportunity' ( which would be a straight red ) or for entering the field of play without permission, and for unsporting behaviour, in which case it's two yellows and an early bath.
I'm guessing that there's no provision to award the goal, so Spain might get a wholly unfair indirect free-kick ten yards from the goal-line ( the wall cannot move ten yards back fromm the ball, so the ball is moved ten yards back from the wall ), though it may only be a drop-ball from right on the line.
I'd like to point out that yesterday's solution seemed somewhat unrelated to the facts stated in the question, therefore can I also suggest that my answer for today also includes the proviso that I've ensured the injured player is strapped to a stretcher, so there's no way he could run on the pitch and ruin the game in such a manner.
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Wait long enough for Torres to think you are not going to do anything (3 seconds should do), then give him a yellow card for the subsequent abuse; book the defender who cleared the ball; and award an indirect free kick to be taken from where he cleared the ball.
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A red card for the defender, its as good as a handball on the line and then a penalty kick.
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it would have to be a hop ball to spain, out side the six yard box. the offending player sent off for a professional foul.
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penalty awarded and player would be sent off for stopping a goal scoring opportunity outwith the rules of the game!
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hackett didnt answer the question
what a crock
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Re 37.
What a ridiculous scenario.
Suggesting that Torres would have found himself in a potential goal-scoring situation in a game vs Manyoo is sheer madness.
; )
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hexose, I said much the same in post 14
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As above, I think, with a pass-back style free kick.
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It depends on which team the defender is playing for.
If he was playing for Spain, the ref should yellow card him for disobedience.
The ref would then have to send off Torres for pulping the defender.
/could happen :)
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then again in retrospect, it may be a drop ball....
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As player has entered field of play without permission it is yellow card an indirect free kick takes place on edge of 6 yard box
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The actual offence is probably worth a yellow card but as someone mentioned above, the defender prevented a clear goal scoring opportunity and was the last man, so he has to go.
I also agree with the idea of the in-direct free kick on the goal line, with the defence needing to be 10 yards back which basically equates to giving a goal. It might seem bizarre in the situation but the ball was going in anyway until the defender came back on the pitch. If a fan ran on and cleared it i'm sure the goal would still be given and I don't see how this is any different.
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RafaBenitezLFC1 , I made a similar comment in my post no 25 :)
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Defender should be given a yellow card. Possibly could give a penalty...
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It would be a yellow card to the defender who returned to the pitch without prior consent, an indirect freekick from where the ball struck the defender and the wall can only move back as far as the pitch limits so they would end up all along the line.
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The offending player is cautioned for entering the field of play without permission.
The referee could give a drop ball, however an indirect free kick would be what I would award.
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*Tanna1985 wish i read yours before posting mine lol we're both right! Are you a ref?....
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The defender should be given a yellow card for unsporting behaviour. Unfortunately he cannot be sent off unless he has been previously booked.
This would result in an indirect free kick with the defenders allowed to stand on the goal line.
A penalty cannot be awarded because he has not handled the ball or fouled another player inside the area. A goal cannot be awarded because the ball did not cross the line.
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I can't believe it!!!!
I used to love the 'you are the ref' challenges in shoot when I was a kid and was always amazed by the intricacied of the laws.
Keith Hackett has managed to sully my memory in one short answer. He seems to have completely missed the point. The scenario has happened and you have to decide how to apply the law. You CAN'T just say, well that wouldn't happen, or I would change this. You CAN'T change the scenario otherwise it is a pointless exercise. Well done Keith Hackett for making the very first entry into what should have been a great addition to the BBC website a complete mess. I suppose this is just typical of referees arrogance generally and could explain why some of the decisions they make week in week out.
Please of please, if anyone from the BBC reads this could you get Keith Hackett to answer the problem properly ie. the scenario has happened, you can't change it, so officiate on the specific scenario and tell us what he would do, not what he would change in the build up.
Sorry for the rant but I used to love this feature and it has been completely misconstrued by Hackett
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birdcharmer - Excellent point made m8
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Actually, after re-reading the scenario, I'd book Torres for not wellying the ball into the empty net. Tapping it might look 'cool' but it's asking for trouble ( and trouble is indeed what Torres got ! ).
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The pub's gone up!!!!
So what about yesterday's questions as to whether the goal stood and the player was red-carded???? Get a grip BBC.
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Keith Hackett did answer yesterdays question, would the goal have stood, NO because he would have stopped play before the goal situation arose! Its no good saying "he didnt say weather or not he would allow the goal" he would have stopped play before it was scored, so that situation would not have happened.
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21. At 3:55 pm on 04 Jun 2008, redimpinbwood wrote:
it would be a yellow card and a drop ball
i know because i have just compleated my first fa ref's couase
----------------------------------------------------
I agree with what you wrote, apart from the way you used random letters in some words.
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No goal can be given unless it has physically crossed the line, you can't just award a goal even if it's a dead cert. If it didn't cross the line you then have the choice of indirect free-kick or penalty.
As for the player, it sounds like he ran onto the pitch from the edge of the pitch, not the halfway line. Two yellow cards for that and the one for the shot blocked.
So he either gets 2 yellow cards or 3 yellow cards, either way he's off.
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I think you would stop the game straight away, award an indirect free-kick where the player came onto the park. The player is the booked.
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I would send the defender off and although spain should get a penalty, i would award them the goal.
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the ref cant give the goal as the ball didnt cross the line. i would book the defender and give spain a penalty and next time the defender even looked at me funny i'd send him off
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The defender should be sent off, but I'm not sure what grounds there are for this - gross professional misconduct, perhaps. Unfortunately, I can't see how a pen can be awarded, so I guess it has to be a drop ball where the offence took place. If the defending team has any common sense, they will allow a simple tap in to put matters right.
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Hackett should spend less time phoning Rafa to apologise and more on actually answering the question actually posed. The ball is IN the net Keith, what would you do???
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stop play.
yellow card to defender for re-entering field of play without ref's permission.
indirect free kick where ball was when play stopped.
as a ref, it horrifies me that some posters are saying a goal should be given or that defenders should stand in the net.
makes me realise why I get the kind of abuse I do on a saturday afternoon
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The offense committed is 're-entering the field without the referee's permission', which is a Yellow Card offense.
It is NOT a red-card, even if true justice would cry out for this to be seen as denying an obvious goalscoring opportunity.
Once the referee sees that a player has entered or re-entered the field without permission, he will allow play to continue until either: the next stoppage in play, OR the player concerned interferes with play. At that point, the player concerned will be cautioned.
In this case, the player has interfered with play, so once he has been cautioned, the restart would be an indirect free kick to the attacking team. The offence took place within the goal area (six-yard box), so the kick would be taken on the six-yard line, at the point closest to where the player played the ball.
The ball had not crossed the line, so a goal canNOT be awarded.
A dropped ball would be the correct restart only if an 'outside agent' (spectator, dog, substitute, manager) had run onto the pitch to stop the ball and not one of the players already taking part in the game.
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Penalty and a yellow card surely for unsporting conduct.
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actually bit unrealistic question, hows a defender going to run from off field to get to the goal line before torres shot goes in? who is he Dwain Chambers?
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Re 62.
Actually, the question wasn't answered.
Keith Hackett simply changed the parameters of the scenario by ignoring everything we were told occured after the 'keeper saved the initial shot ( or, if you prefer, he moved the goalposts ! ).
The question related directly to the goal scored, and to whether or not the goalscorer should be red-carded, it did not ask if the referee was right to allow play to have continued beyond the point where the advantage was lost ...
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Regarding Mr Hackett's answer to yesterday's poser...
He did not really answer the question but instead gave an opinion on how he would have acted had he been the referee before the scenario played itself out.
In any case, the idea that he would have played advantage for the three seconds and only then, even as the attacking player was clean through and looking sure to score, would have stopped play is more than a little odd and would have caused more problems than it solved.
I could have supported an immediate stoppage, OR, once the attempt was saved, deciding that the injury was serious enough for a stoppage, OR having allowed advantage, letting play proceed to the next stoppage.
I cannot see the logic in his answer (and yes - I am a referee)
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Interesting. The number of answers given (mostly wrong) just goes to prove that so, so many people just ''think'' they know the laws of football.
In this case the player would be yellow-carded for entering the field of play without the referee's permission (there is no yellow card for entering from behind the goal as has been suggested). The referee would stop play to administer the caution (for entering without permission) and the game would be re-started with (not totally sure on this bit) an indirect free-kick, taken from where the ball was when he blew the whistle to stop the game to caution the player.
While many want to red card for Denying an Obvious Goal-Scoring Opportunity, this would not be correct, as the action of clearing the ball did not involve handball or fouling another player as stated in the definitions covering this. Unfair though it is - the player's action cannot be deemed as DOGSO.
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i would award Spain with a Penalty and give a yellow card to the Defender, as he shouldn't be on the field.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Caution the player for entering the field of play without permission and award a goal kick!
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send off the offending defender and give spain a penalty
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presuming the player blocked the ball about a yard out it would be an indirect free kick to spain with defence on the goalline or 10 yards either side and behind.
As for the player most refs would chicken out of giving him a red card but it probably should be a yellow as he has stopped the ball legally. He should be warned next offence and he is off
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defender red carded for denying a goal scoring opportunity and a penalty awarded to spain
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the ball was clearly over the line :)
(but If Jose insists, it's a yellow and a drop ball on the edge of the six-yard box.)
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I remember something about robbie keane near the end of the season where he was off the pitch behind the goal waiting for the keeper to kick the ball out, and when the keeper played it along the ground he ran back on trying to get the ball. I think I remember that on match of the day they were saying that he wouldve been sent off for unsportsmanship behaviour.
In this case then the player wouldve been sent off and as he was inside the box and as a foul was commited then it wouldve been a penalty.
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Here's a question -
Does the definition of an 'Obvious Goal Scoring Opportunity' take into consideration of the quality of the player concerned ?
I mean, if I were a referee and Bobby Zamora was hacked down with the ball at his feet, 2 yards out with the open goal at his mercy ... I'd have to think long and hard about that ... it is Bobby Zamora after all.
; D
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send him of and award spain the goal
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red card for defender and penalty to spain
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ignore last statement. I agree with yorkshire refs response
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Given that spectators,coaches,physios etc can clear the ball from an empty net then a goal cannot be allowed and play must continue as no physical offence has been committed.
Case of dissent from the defender however so a yellow card when the game comes to a halt.
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75. Couldn't agree more - and refs wonder why they get so much stick when they can 't give a decisive answer to criteria laid out in front of them. The question started after the advantage not "would you play the advantage?"
77. Took the words right out of my mouth...but better explained!
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I think that entering the field of play without permission is ungentlemanly conduct and therefore (only) a yellow card offence. The punishment, I suspect, is (also only) an indirect free-kick.
Which would be considered an acceptable punishment by the offending player, his team, manager, and countrymen - in private, at least!
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I believe that the defender should be cautioned (shown a yellow card) for re-entering the field of play without the permission of the referee. A drop-ball be awarded as it is a result of interference from an "outside object", and contested on the edge of the goal area (6 yd box for non-officials ;-) )
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I will give the incoming defender a yellow card and award the penalty to the supposed to score team,easy!
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I believe it's a yellow for unsporting conduct and also an indirect free kick to Spain.
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Book or send off the defender.
Indirect free kick to Spain.
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I would declare the goal good and give a yellow card to the player who saved it.
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Tough one. I think I would have to stop the match, book the defender and award Spain a penalty.
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I'd love to know how between the time the ball has left Torres's foot (having rounded the keeper he can't have been that far out) and hitting the back of the net, the defender has managed to get all the way from the sideline, back to the goal.
What a ridiculous scenario!!!
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Allow play to continue and pretend you had let the player back onto the pitch.
Remember the Ref's word is final
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Clearly the offence is only worthy of a yellow card, that being that he entered the field of play witout waiting for permission. Spain are then awarded a penalty.
Should it be saved/missed I would allow them to retake it as many times as they like due to "the keeper moving off the line." Or similar excuse until they score.
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The only offence is coming on to the field without permission. This is punishable by way of yellow card.
Anything that happens in the meantime continues. There would be no free kicks or penalties as the only offence is coming on. There is no obstruction, hand ball or other illegal offence.
Play continues to the next break in play at which point the offending player is booked.
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Some are saying it should be red card due to denying a goal scoring opp. This is wrong, as he has not actually committed a foul on player shooting or by handball. Therefore, as it is not a foul, I do not think a penalty can be awarded either.
The player will certainly be booked as I think the offence can only be classed as dissent due to disobeying the referee. It will most probably be a free kick in the box although not sure whether direct or indirect.
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Sorry ndauvako, osowande, flenderson and others. As at least two referees have already pointed out in this column, the restart of play is not a penalty. For starters, the offence wasn't clearing the ball on the goal line, the offence was re-entering the field of play without the permission of the referee, and the question makes it clear that this was from "the sideline" if you look at it again. Therefore the offence didn't take place in the penalty area, so no penalty can be awarded (much though I would like to!).
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Simple, youd book him for coming back onto the field of play without your knowledge, but then you'd have to show him a straight red for denying an obvious goal scoring oppurunity - this scenario would never happen though, to come back on when play is still going he'll have to come on from the half-way line...
you'd give an indirect free-kick to spain from where the defender touched the ball.
(and about yesterdays answer, where the hell has the random 3 seconds come from, and if it (the ball) doesnt end up in the goal does that mean he's then going to award a free-kick and the advantage, stupid answer)
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I would be inclined to give 2 yellows for re-entering play without refs permission and unsporting behaviour and an indirect freekick. As there is no handball the player isn't denying a goal scoring opportunity.
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For today's question you have to give the goal, the player was clearly told to wait. He should get a yellow for his troubles too, not a red though because the goAl is punishment enough.
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I would give the defender a yellow card for entering the field of play without permission. I would then show him a red card for illegally preventing a goal.
I think that the the illegal prevention of the goal would merit a penalty, just as a hand-ball on the line or a professional foul by a defender would do, but I have to say that there are plenty of respondents suggesting a drop ball, and I'm being swayed by their convidence.
No I'm not. It's a pen.
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If the ball was clearly on target, the goal stands and the player who performed the goal-line clearance is sent off. If the ball may have gone wide, a penalty is awarded and the player is sent off anyway.
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A yellow card of the offender, and an indirect free kick to Spain from where the shot was taken from
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What should happen using common sense is for the goal to be given (like in rugby as a penalty try for deliberate foul play when the opposition are almost guaranteed to score). However, football isn't ruled by common sense, hence I don't think the goal can be given. As the player has deliberatle infringed the rules of the game in coming back onto the pitch, I would give a penalty and send the player off (I believe it's the same scenario as when a player prevents a certain goal by using his hand on the goal line, instant red card and penalty). All seems unfair to Spain in this instance but there you go, I'm not a ref so I'm interested to see what Keith says.
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No different to a professional foul, preventing a clear goalscoring chance.
Send him off, penalty to Spain.
You know they'll bottle it before the final anyway...
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Penalty for Spain, definately.
And sending off the other player although not to sure about that, it might only be a yellow.
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I would abandon the game and award it to Spain for the opposition bringing the game into disrepute, also that defender should be looking at a significant match ban
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definetely send the player off for denying a clear goalscoring oppurtunity, but whether to award a penalty or indirect free-kick i am unsure
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from 100 and something 'Some are saying it should be red card due to denying a goal scoring opp. This is wrong, as he has not actually committed a foul on player shooting or by handball. Therefore, as it is not a foul, I do not think a penalty can be awarded either.
The player will certainly be booked as I think the offence can only be classed as dissent due to disobeying the referee. It will most probably be a free kick in the box although not sure whether direct or indirect.'
you've said no penalty, a direct free-kick in the box is a penalty, if you dont know that, how do you know what 'denying a goal scoring oppurtunity is'...and he wont be booked by dissent because its not decent, its just booked for entering/reentering the field of play
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I agree with Yorkshireref. It should be a yellow card to the defender for entering the field of play without the referee's permission and then it should be an indirect free kick to Spain from where the infringement took place. It is not a red card nor a penalty as no direct offence as been committed by fouling a player and nor has handball been committed. And I don't know why people are bringing a yellow card for dissent into it!
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Yellow Card to the defender, and Indirect Free Kick on the edge of the 6 yard box - you can't have a free kick within the 6 yard area (so, not really fair to Spain, but they won't win the tournament anyway!)
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Defender sneaking on should be sent off for entering the field without permission, and stopping a clear goal scoring opportunity.
Goal can't be given as it didn't actually cross the line. Spain awarded penalty.
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a yellow card for the defender;
and the goal is allowed.
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Keith Hackett did answer yesterdays question, would the goal have stood, NO because he would have stopped play before the goal situation arose! Its no good saying "he didnt say weather or not he would allow the goal" he would have stopped play before it was scored, so that situation would not have happened.
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What? According to yesterday's question the situation DID arise. Read it again please.
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I know this is repeating what other have said but I reckon if there are enough comments on it the beeb will have to get him to do it properly......
Read no. 58 for my complaint - he didn't answer the question.
Re. no 62, that sounds like the comment of someone who put that in his answer and wanted to be right. Unfortunately, you both didn't answer the question.
Rant over.
My answer to the second question is that it will be sending off and penalty for denying a clear goal scoring oppurtunity.
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yellow card for the defender (for entering the field of play without the referee's permission)
indirect free-kick from where the offence occurred
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It is a goal bound strike intercepted illegally by a defending player, therefore I would treat the incident in the same way that you would treat a defender saving a shot with his hands:
1. Send off the defender for his unsporting behaviour/professional foul;
2. Award Spain a penalty.
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I would let play continue holding my nose as high up in the air as possible and as soon as Torres protested I would send him off.
Thats why I was top of my class at the Steve Bennett School of Refereeing in Old Trafford.
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I would give a yellow card to the defender, and award an indirect free kick to Spain at the place the defender cleared the ball. I think a penalty would only be awarded for an offence that would result in a direct free kick if it had happened outside of the area, and as the offence is a technical one rather than dangerous play it would be comparable to a pass back.
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I would give a straight red to the defender and award a penalty to Spain. My rationale is that the player was warned not to return to the field, and by violating that he denied a clear goal scoring opportunity. Thus, a straight red, and a penalty to Spain.
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Shame that new posters don't read earlier posts - that might stop them repeating the same wrong answers over and over again...
I am still sure my original post (77) is correct in law.
How can anyone with an interest in football think you would alow a goal when the ball hasn't gone in.
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Red card and a penalty to Spain.
The bottom line is that the player shouldn't have been on the pitch, he knew that, and he knowingly denied a clear goal-scoring opportunity illegally, so I'd treat it the same way that I'd treat a red card foul in the box and award a penalty.
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In fact, even worse the guy says,
"I certainly would not have allowed play to continue in the way that the question suggests and I believe I speak for all referees officiating in EURO 2008."
That's not the point of this is it? The whole point of this is that what a fully qualified premier referee would do in an unlikely/impossible scenario, not for someone to tell us the scenario wouldn't happen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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355gts wrote:
Clearly the offence is only worthy of a yellow card, that being that he entered the field of play witout waiting for permission. Spain are then awarded a penalty.
Should it be saved/missed I would allow them to retake it as many times as they like due to "the keeper moving off the line." Or similar excuse until they score.
Sorry 355gts, where on earth does this come from? Which refereeing manual do you think contains that advice? Find excuses to let a team retake a penalty until they score?! Torres chose to run off and celebrate before making sure he'd scored.
Anyway, as I noted above, there can't be a penalty as no offence has been committed IN THE PENALTY AREA. The offence is in coming back on "from the sideline" without the referee's permission. As Bellion-Wonderland says, play would just continue until an opportunity arose to book the offending player. Unfair perhaps, but until there is some discretion for referees to just award a goal in situations such as this, and the old favourite of handball on the line, we'll have to make do with the rules as they are!
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And you'd be wrong twice SatanicToaster (great name....)
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penalty to spain and a red card for the defender
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Firstly, as a referee it is good people are all giving different answers so perhaps they will understand how hard it is out there on the field of play every week.
Secondly it is bad that so many people have no idea what the laws of football are!!
The answer to #2 is caution for re-entering the field of play without permission for the defender.
Restart with an indirect freekick on the goal area line parallel to the goal line perpendicular to where the incident took place.
Regarding Mr. Hackett's answer to #1, people claiming that he did not answer the same question must first look at how silly the sequence of events are, his answer was the correct thing to do according to law.
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You can tell from that pic its over the line :)
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Wrong on both counts Corky
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It isn't a goal!
No one likes Fernando Torres so it shouldn't be a goal maybe a yellow for the defender because he is a bad boy
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Can't agree Brooklegend - with your last bit (agree on your general points).
The re-start is not taken from the goal area line as the kicking of the ball is not an offence and has nothing to do with the re-start.
The re-start is where the ball was when the referee stops play to administer the caution for the technical offence of entering the field without permission
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The defender is unlawfully denying a clear goalscoring opportunity and so should be given a Red Card.
As for the restart, I would guess it is either a 'Drop-Ball' or a penalty
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No, no, no, no!
While many want to red card for Denying an Obvious Goal-Scoring Opportunity, this would not be correct, as the action of clearing the ball did not involve handball or fouling another player as stated in the definitions covering this. Unfair though it is - the player's action cannot be deemed as DOGSO.
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i think i would send the player off, for denying a clear goal situation. from that spain should be given an indirect free kick in the area
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Very enjoyable to read the posts, but proof positive that the average fan chastising from the terraces doesn't have a clue about the rules.
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I would give an indirect free kick to spain where the offence was committed (where the player stopped the ball). I would then give the player who came onto the field of play without my permission a yellow card for dissent. Hope Im right!!
Fernando Torres is king!
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Yorkshire ref - with the scenario as it is, the referee only notices that the player has come onto the pitch at the point in which he kicks the ball. Therefore at this instant the ball and him are in the same place - inside the 6-yard box, so Brooklegend is right to say the restart is on the 6-yard line parallel to where the player/ball is.
Obviously the referee should have noticed before though.
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penalty kick because the ball never crossed the line .. Definate red for dissent .
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would be a yellow card for directly disobeying the ref but because it denies a clear goalscoring oppertunity it should be a red and then an indirect free kick from where the defender touched the ball defenders should be ten yards or on the goal line
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Penalty to Spain, straight red to defender for denying a goal scoring opertunity as he should not have been on the park.
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Regarding post 77.
I'm pretty sure when the whistle is blown to stop play like this it should be a drop-ball.
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I think it is a defenders job to deny any goal scoring opportunity. I think people are getting mixed up with hacking down a player when the defender is the last man or the keeper taking the player instead of the ball.
All these calls for the defender getting a red card because he is denying a clear goal scoring opportunity I think are bending the rules and probably not correct.
The offences that come to my mind are dissent and ungentlemanly conduct. Whether it is both offences and warrants two yellow cards I don't know. It is two offences?
I think therefore I would send off the player and award a penalty as the offence is in the box. I think an indirect free kick would be unjust.
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give the goal and book the player. if it was going in then there will be no need for a drop ball or penalty, the goal stands.
VIVA ESPANA!!!!!!!!
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Going by the answer to #1's logic I would not have let this situation develop in the first place.
I would have thrown my boot at the player coming back on to prevent him re-entering the field.
Then after the goal was scored I would book him for trying to enter the field.
I thought this was a clever feature until I saw Keith Hackett's answer!
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Hi Pompeysam55 - see where you are coming from but.....
As I said, the blocking of the ball is not an offence and has nothing to do with the re-start.
The referee, once he recognises that it is the player who has come on (illegally) who has blocked the ball, he will blow to stop play to caution him. This is a technical offence and because of that the re-start will be an indirect free-kick where the the ball is when he stops play. If he is quick enough to blow to stop play when the ball is still in the 6-yard box, then I will concede the indirect free-kick will be where Brooklegend says. I doubt he would be that quick (I know I wouldn't) but I take your point.
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Another easy one. Deliberate foul to deny a goal. Penalty. Red card. Let's see if Mr. Hackett gets this one right!
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I would give a yellow card to the player for re-entering the field of play and an indirect free kick in the penalty area for Spain.
I don't understand why everyone is writing long passages it's pretty straight forward.
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Also Torres would make sure that the ball is in the net before celebrating because he is the best footballer to bless the prem after fowler and gerrard
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Jack_and_Hannah - (post 148) not so as far as I understand. The game has been stopped to caution a player from one side, so the re-start is against that player's team.
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Its quite funny on here with the obvious refs who know what they are talking about (e.g. Yorkshireref) but then the others must be either footballers who spend games chasing refs about wrong decisions or who stand on the sideline shouting abuse. Maybe scenarios like these will make people realise how tough reffing games can be and how quick and on the ball they constantly have to be to make correct decisions. So many people are talking rubbish on here!
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Inhighdef - if Mr Hackett does get it right, he'll be one up on you....
It's alright trying to be smart - but be right first!
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Returning or leaving the field without referee's permission is a bookable offence. In this case though that is over ruled because he has clearly stopped a goal scoring opportunity and I would show him the red card and give a penalty to spain.
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Rules is Rules! Only a hothead like John Terry would do something as daft as that!!The defender was off the pitch receiving treatment, therefore this clearly was not an incident that happened suddenly and required a sporting gesture from Spain (i.e, kicking the ball to touch). Therefore Torres should be awarded a penalty and the defender red carded.
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Yorkshire ref - I agree with you, as with the first question the situation described should never be allowed to develop. The referee would notice him come on and stop the play earlier.
I do love the number of people saying red card/penalty/dissent etc, i don't think the laws of the game are that complicated (even before I qualified about 5 yrs ago), but makes you realise how many people actually don't know the laws at all.
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indirect free kick and sending off for bad conduct and ignoring the ref when told to stay off until instructed to do otherwise.
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Roverboi - if just that one message is picked up by many of the posters on here - then this will have been a great excercise.
It's not as easy as people think and you have to make these decisions (even the most odd ones that will be brought up through You are the Ref) in a split second.
None of us are perfect (refs that is) but we all do our best and do it honestly and with fear or favour.
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I'm sorry to have to tell a few people that dissent is very clearly stated in the question - the referee has been asked if the player can come back on, and refused: ergo, dissent by action (look it up if you don't believe me).
As far as awarding a goal goes, there's no direct way to do so, but the ref can effectively do so by, for example, warning players that to block the indirect free-kick would be construed as unsporting behaviour.
The point is surely that any good referee should be trying to find a way to ensure that the player is sent off and a goal scored - not to do so is to put the word of the law of the game ahead of the spirit.
The posters complaining about Keith Hackett raise an interesting point, but it has to be viewed in the light of the fact that the scenario in the first question is directly contrary to the laws of the game. The question is really little more than "You have made a horrendous mistake: what do you do?"
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Astonished at some of the answers on here.
- Caution for entering the FOP without permission.
- Indirect Free Kick from where the ball was when he entered FOP. If this was inside the goal area, kick is taken from on the top of the GA parallel to the goal line.
Is it any wonder we referees have to put up with so much abuse when even the most ardent fans have such a poor understanding of the laws?
Please read them:
http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/lawsofthegame.html
Please.
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Let's try AGAIN to put the red card issue to bed. Whilst the defender has denied a clear goal, he is not punishable by a red card, as the FIFA Laws Of The Game state a player is sent off if he/she:
"denies the opposing team a goal or an
obvious goal-scoring opportunity by
deliberately handling the ball (this does
not apply to a goalkeeper within his
own penalty area)
or
denies an obvious goal-scoring
opportunity to an opponent moving
towards the player’s goal by an offence
punishable by a free kick or a penalty kick"
Has the defender in the question handled the ball? No, so the first part above does not apply. Has the defender denied a player moving towards the goal a chance to score by fouling him? No, so the second part doesn't apply, therefore no red card. And no, he can't be sent off for "ungentlemanly conduct", that's a yellow. If anyone who feels this is a red card would like to go to http://www.thefa.com/TheFA/
RulesAndRegulations/FIFALawsOfTheGame/, open the PDF, go to the section on Fouls and Misconduct and tell me which red card offence has committed, then go ahead!
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Give Torres the goal...and book the player who disruped play
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dsugerman28 - the re-entering field of play isn't overridden.
the red card offence is:
denying obvious goal scoring opportunity by an offence punishable by a DIRECT free-kick.
the offence committed is punishable by a INDIRECT freekick, so a penalty cannot be given.
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A red card can be given for any offence that denies a goal scoring opportunity. There is clearly an offence here that does just that. I would say red card for sure, and guess that it would be a penalty to Spain, as a foul has been committed.
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1. You cannot get 2 (or 3!) yellow cards for the same action/offence, adding up to a red, as some here are suggesting. An offence is either a yellow-card offence or a red-card offence. If you do two illegal things immediately after each other, you can only get punished for the second because it's as if advantage has been played on the first. You only get sent off for collecting yellow cards when they're given for separate offences at different times.
In this case however, I think it's obvious a clear goal-scoring opportunity was denied illegally by the last defender, which calls for a straight red card according to the rules.
2. A penalty is only given for a foul in the box. The question is - is an illegal goal-line clearance, which doesn't involve a tackle or contact of any sort, a foul? I'd have to say yes, so it must be a penalty.
The funny thing is - if that defender HADN'T got to that ball and it had gone in, it would still be the same offence but the goal would obviously be given and he would probably just get a yellow for entering the pitch without permission!
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Yes, it could take 5 seconds not 3 seconds to score lol.
In this case I would award an indirect free-kick to spain as a person not involved in play has entered the field.
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Josh_23 - any ''good referee'' will know and apply the laws and will not look at ways to apply what he may think is some form of justice.
May seem unfair, but where do you stop if you think it's OK to start bending things to suit your view of justice!
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"Another easy one. Deliberate foul to deny a goal. Penalty. Red card. Let's see if Mr. Hackett gets this one right!"
Sorry, "inhighdef", but not "easy" - no red card offence has been committed! No "goal scoring opportunity" has been denied. Torres has already had the opportunity and taken it. And anyway, check the laws of the game on FIFA or FA website. "Preventing an obvious goalscoring opportunity" is only a red card offence if a player does so by handling the ball or fouling an opponent. Which the defender in question has not done. Not fair, but they're the rules!
You would imagine though that a player unsporting enough to so what this defender did would probably have been booked for something else earlier in the game anyway! Sounds like a right piece of work...
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14 is of course correct.
Since you can change the scenario there are lots of correct answers. Keith would have waved the player on during a previous neutral moment or seen the player coming on and stopped him in his tracks with a sharp "wait there." Either way there would be no foul and Torres would have scored. However none of this would have happened. Keith is such a good ref and would have such excellent control of the game that no-one would be injured and require treatment. So the defender would never be off the pitch and the defending team would not be a man short, and Torres would not be unmarked and would not score. And if this is a big tournament Spain would lose.
Isn't that right Keith?
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Its a tricky one this...anywhere else on the pitch if a player ran on it would be free kick and a yellow card.
Strictly speaking the punishment shouldn't change, therefore penalty and yellow card, but then you have to take into account denying a clear goalscoring opportunity.
But to clear up:
AN INDIRECT FREE KICK INSIDE THE AREA DOES NOT REQUIRE THE WALL TO BE 10 YARDS BACK IF THE BALL IS CLOSER THAN 10 YARDS TO THE GOAL.
If an indirect free kick is 6 yards away, the wall stand on the line.
And also, it is not an offence to be waved back onto the field by the referee if you are not at the half way line...players come on from all sections of the pitch.
For this scenario, the law probably states it is only a yellow card offence, but most referees would give a red.
As for the technicalities between a penalty and an indirect free kick, Im not sure...
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Re-entering the field of play without permission is a yellow card offence.
The last ditch goal line clearance would be an indirect free kick.
The player who committed the offence should also be asked to leave the field of play and proceed to the junction of halfway line and touch line to be invited to re-join play at a later time.
If I was the ref that would be after the indirect free kick had been taken.
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Andy> You can give the player *two* yellow cards - one for coming back on the field, one for dissent-by-action.
Is law 12.5 not relevant here? The law does not state 'foul', but 'offence punishable by free-kick', which this clearly is, given the agreement on an indirect-free-kick as the restart.
Out of interest, what do you believe would be a *morally* correct response, rather than one that is strictly according to the laws of the game? I don't suppose you'd dispute that it should be goal and red card? The only question in my mind is how to make it so within the laws of the game.
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Aaaargh! Is nobody reading any of the posts before posting their answer? Sorry MikeD_442, you're the latest offender.
"A red card can be given for any offence that denies a goal scoring opportunity."
This is just plain wrong. Read the Laws of the Game at the FIFA or FA website. A red card CANNOT be given for any offence that denies a goal scoring opportunity, just for handball, or any offence which would be punishable by a direct free kick. That's the FIFA wording. Re-entering the field of play without permission is not punishable by a direct free kick, therefore this offence doesn't come under the "denying a goal scoring opportunity" part of the red card rules. I don't get why people are finding this so hard.
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Yorkshireref>
"any ''good referee'' will know and apply the laws and will not look at ways to apply what he may think is some form of justice.
May seem unfair, but where do you stop if you think it's OK to start bending things to suit your view of justice!"
No. No. No, no, no, no, no. Ask any fan or player what they think, and they'll tell you that blind application of the law is the exact opposite of what is wanted. So will top referees - see Colina's version of this column for a perfect example.
If the letter of the law permits absolutely no deviation, it's usually a bad law (of which football has a few). If it does permit deviation, that is there precisely so that it can be applied with common sense.
Where do you stop? Why stop anywhere, if the solution is satisfactory and within the discretion of the referee permitted by the laws? As long as a solution is just, no-one will complain.
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Sorry again Josh_23.
You are never going to get away with calling this ''dissent by action''. The offence is simply entering the field without permission.
Secondly, the blocking of the ball in this scenario is not an offence punishable by a free-kick. Yes he should not have been where he was, but what he did was not punishable in this way.
On your morale question - sorry to sound like a robot, but you can't bend the laws to suit your moral outlook. All you can do is apply the laws without fear or favour - that's your job as a referee no more no less!
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In this situation as the referee i would yellow card the defender, whether or not he had already been booked, as well as a word in his ear to say that he musn't come back on the field until i say so. award a penalty to spain. and warn the rest of the players that it wont be tollerated and next time a red card will be shown.
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Seeing as this question has been satisfactorily answered numerous times, yet people still insist on giving incorrect answers ad nauseum, is it worth asking if Hackett could answer the question posed yesterday, only subsituting the 'red card offence' for 'second yellow card'?
Hopefully second time around he won't avoid answering the question as he did to begin with.
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Andrew M - BBC Sport: Please explain why Keith Hackett didn't answer yesterday's question.
This could have been a really interesting feature, and I saw it as a great addition. However, in one simple answer, it has destroyed my memories of having fun with You Are The Ref questions when I was young. Those scenarios were often equally unlikely but were actually answered properly.
Please
a) Ensure it happens in future
b) We are given a satisfactory answer to #1.
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Andy> Actually, I retract my previous comment about two yellow cards for two offences - it's too complicated. One yellow card for your choice of offence related to running on, one separate card for persistent infringement of the laws of the game - entirely at the discretion of the referee, and entirely apt here.
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Josh_23>
At last some intelligent discussion! Thanks fella.
"Andy> You can give the player *two* yellow cards - one for coming back on the field, one for dissent-by-action."
Fair point, although I would imagine that referees are probably given some "double jeopardy" guidelines, in that you would be punishing the player twice for the same action, just using two descriptions of it. Referees would be seen as vindictive, and become even more unpopular!
"Is law 12.5 not relevant here? The law does not state 'foul', but 'offence punishable by free-kick', which this clearly is, given the agreement on an indirect-free-kick as the restart."
You are absolutely right. I have re-read the rules, and was wrong on my previous posts, I apologise to anyone I corrected. It does indeed say any offence punishable by a free kick. So I would be interested to hear yorkshireref's interpretation of this. I imagine that the free kick is used to restart play purely because play has been stopped to book the player, rather than it being awarded directly for an offence. He hasn't committed an offence punishable by a free kick, the free kick is just being used as a means to restart the game after all the hoo-ha and the booking.
"Out of interest, what do you believe would be a *morally* correct response, rather than one that is strictly according to the laws of the game? I don't suppose you'd dispute that it should be goal and red card? The only question in my mind is how to make it so within the laws of the game."
A morally correct answer in my opinion would be goal and yellow card. The referee should be allowed to do what rugby refs do and award a penalty goal in cases where it is obvious in the referee's opinion that the ball would have gone in. Mainly handball on the line, or cases such as the one we're discussing today. We should give the referees that discretion, and it might discourage players from behaving in this way! Regarding the card, I would say that awarding the goal to Spain would be punishment enough for the opposing team. A red card as well would be overly harsh. But that's just my opinion, I can completely see the argument for red.
Cheers josh.
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AndyB #173
Has the defender in rushing onto the pitch contrary to the ref's instructions committed an "offence punishable by a free kick" and in the process of course prevented a player from scoring a goal?
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Yellow for entering the field of play without permission. Then straight red for denying a goal when technically off the field. Plus give the goal because it'll make sure nobody does such a daft thing again.
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Sending off for a deliberate foul which stopped a goal.
In direct free kick ten yards from the goal line
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Josh_23 - and these will be the same fans and players who scream at referees when they don't like the decision against them or their team - whether that decision is right or wrong.
I don't referee like a robot and there are loads of occasions when you have to apply common sense. What you can't do is try to bend the laws to justify some moral position you may want to take. You give your decisions and most certainly you can't be influenced by what fans or players think.
As this column is proving, many really don't know the laws and have some very odd views...
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I think the defending player is booked for dissent, with the goal from torres standing as before. Not that a player would be stupid enough to do this in the euros...
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A yellow card to the defender for entering the pitch prior to be beckoned on by the referee.
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Hey yorkshireref, I think it's way better that people have not read the previous answers. Far more entertaining this way...no?
PS I recommend that more people take their ref's licence. It's an eye opener. We all, myself included prior to taking it, think we know so much about the game.
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I would stop play and disallow the goal and caution the defender for re-entering field without permission and then restart play with an indirect free kick.
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Indirect free-kick to Spain where the defender touched the ball, I believe.
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Surely it really depends where the defender enters the pitch from!
If he jumps up from behind the goal and runs on to make the save then I agree it must be a yellow card and probably a drop ball but if he was standing waiting at the half way line then no action should be taken as the ref would be at fault for not signaling him to come back on. After all he had done nothing wrong except got injured.. probably from a foul giving the Spanish an unfair advantage in the first place.
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I think the correct answer is that a player reentering the field of play without the referees permission should be cautioned.
He hasn't specifically committed a foul so no penalty can be awarded (unless there was a handball I missed) and I don't think he can be sent off for this offence. You can only be sent off for denying a goal scoring opportunity by commiting a foul not breaching another rule.
He should be cautioned when the ball next goes dead or alternatively the referee can stop the game to administer the caution and then restart with an indirect free kick to the opposing team - meaning an indirect free kick in the box for Spain.
Difficult one and I'm a qualified ref!
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First the defending player is cautioned for "unsporting behaviour". As per the rules for entering the field of play without permission.
Secondly the player is then punished accordingly for the second offence which sould be either a second caution or a straight red card (on the decision of the referee)
Play would be restarted with an indirect freekick to Spain, at the place that the defender stopped the ball.
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jwayman - actually you're probably right.
This is, actually, quite a tough question and I did have to really think it through.
It is not surpising there are so many answers and most of them are probably gut instinct - and have a moral/fairness element to it.
Despite my exchange with Josh_23, I do know where he is coming from - but knowing the laws and being able to apply them in the heat of battle is what sets a qualified referee apart from the poor guy in the tracksuit who has to do it because there is no ref for that particular game.
Would be nice, sometimes, for people to recognise that refs do actually contribute - despite their faults and failings
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Yorkshireref>
"You are never going to get away with calling this ''dissent by action''. "
Why? He has asked the ref a question, received an answer, and acted so as to disagree with it. What better example could you ask for?
"Secondly, the blocking of the ball in this scenario is not an offence punishable by a free-kick. "
Running on to the pitch w/o permission is specifically stated to be so, isn't it?
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The correct answer is: a yellow card for the defender and an indirect free kick to Spain. The place at which the indirect free kick is open to debate though.
The player commits the offenses of entering the field of play without the refs permission, and, arguably, unsporting behaviour, both of which should receive compulsory yellow cards. However, only one yellow card can be given as only the most serious offence can be punished at one time. It is then up to the referee to decide which of the offences is more serious. With both of these, as they are not offences punishable by direct free kicks, the only way to restart play is with an indirect free kick. It is up to the referee to decide which of the offences is more serious, the entry to the field or the unsporting behaviour where the player intercepted the ball. This decides the location of the indirect free kick as play must restart at the location of the offence.
The player has not committed any offences to warrant a red card: to be sent off for denying a goalscoring opportunity you must either deliberately handball or commit an offence punishable by a direct free kick.
Given some of the answers, no wonder referees get so much (undeserved) stick!!
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#178
Sending-off Offence #5 is applicable. This is a foul that would otherwise result in any type of free kick that prevents a goal.
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I would yellow card the player for dissent(by ignoring instructions) and give an indirect free kick.
I would also book Torres for not blasting home and making my day so bloody difficult!!
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inhighdef>
"Has the defender in rushing onto the pitch contrary to the ref's instructions committed an "offence punishable by a free kick" and in the process of course prevented a player from scoring a goal?"
Hmmm. I'm not a referee or an expert, and I've looked at the laws again to try and work this out. My initial thought was that no, he hasn't committed a foul or an offence punishable by a free kick, he's just done something which warrants a yellow card. For example, swearing at the referee warrants a card, but doesn't mean the opposition get a free kick, so coming onto the field without permission warrants a card, but doesn't mean you give a free kick to the other team.
However if you read the small print at the end of Law 12, it says an indirect free kick is given for "other offence, not previously
mentioned in Law 12, for which play is
stopped to caution or dismiss a player". Now, our defender today has committed an offence for which play has been stopped so he can be booked". Therefore he has prevented a goal scoring opportunity by committing an offence punishable by a free kick. Therefore it's a red card. Isn't it yorkshireref? I'm confused now.
I think the answer is in the wording of the red card offence, which in full is: "denies an obvious goal-scoring opportunity to an opponent moving towards the player’s goal by an offence punishable by a free kick or a penalty kick". He hasn't denied Torres the chance to score. Torres had the chance, took his shot, and danced off to celebrate. He is not "moving towards the player's goal". Hmmm.
Well I don't know anymore. What I DO know is that whatever answer Keith Hackett gives tomorrow, he'll get a load of stick on this forum!
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Give A Goal Seem As The Player That Saved The Ball Off The Line Was Told To Stay Out Of Play,Then Book The Player Who Made The Last Ditch Tackle For Disobeying Your Order.[=
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I think the only answer is a yellow card and a drop ball. Harsh on Spain though.
However, if Torres had been playing for Liverpool at the time, the decision would have to be whatever Steven Gerrard and Jamie Carragher decided.
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I'm sorry but the fact of the matter is that referee's DON'T have the power to award a 'penalty' goal, as they can do in rugby. Also it would be ridiculous to award an indirect free kick in this position. The defending team would be on the line, practically touching the ball. The only fair judgement here would be to award a penalty.
As for the player, I feel he should be sent off. Whether it is a straight red for stopping a goal scoring opportunity or if it’s for 2 yellow card offences (re-entering play without the ref's permission and decent by action). Either way, he gets sent off.
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Yorkie> And another hting ;)
"I don't referee like a robot and there are loads of occasions when you have to apply common sense. What you can't do is try to bend the laws to justify some moral position you may want to take. "
Please don't think I'm saying you're wrong - most of the time, what you say would be right. This column, though, deals with extraordinary situations, and so an extraordinary level of 'applying common sense' is called for :)
If the ref can pause for thought for a moment, and use an obscure rule in an unusual way, that would be a good result all round, IMO. Any fan of the cheating player's team who complained would be clearly biassed and irrational, and so should not be listened to... In an ideal world :)
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Not that it matters, but the scenario does not say the player asked permission and then ignored the referee's request to wait.
He simply ignored his request (but that's just splitting hairs).
All I can give you is my (reasonably experienced) view that this act would not be considered dissent.
''Running on to the pitch w/o permission is specifically stated to be so, isn't it?''
No, this is not an offence punishable by a free-kick. He will be cautioned for entering the field without permission - but the indirect free-kick that will re-start the game is just that - a way of re-starting the game after the ref has stopped it to administer the caution.
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There has been some discussion/confusion about the laws of the game relating to a sending off offence - I have done a cut and paste here from the FA website:
"A player, substitute or substituted player is sent off and shown the red card if he commits any of the following seven offences:
[cut]
denies an obvious goalscoring opportunity to an opponent moving towards the player’s goal by an offence punishable by a free kick or a penalty kick."
In the scenario outlined the player has committed an offence (re-entering the pitch without the refs permission) that is punishable by an indirect free-kick (I think other posters have already explained that this means it can not be a penalty).
The laws regarding a sending off for what is commonly referred to as a professional foul do not specify that the offence must be punishable by a direct free-kick (although I thought it did until I looked it up) and therefore a player could, in theory, be sent from the field of play for an indirect free-kick offence.
I suppose the pedant in me now says "well hang on the offence is re-entering the pitch not the fact he clears the ball from the line (which happened after the offence had already been committed) therefore it should be a yellow card and an indirect free-kick to the opposition."
I think the honest answer is that the rules do not tightly cover this scenario but, with my refs hat on, I suspect I would have awarded an indirect free-kick (I would like to award a penalty but can find no justification in the laws to do so) but would send the player off for denying a clear goal-scoring opportunity.
Far from straight forward though.
What is clear is that the ref can not award a goal - the ball has not crossed the line.
Just to jump on the "Keith Hackett answered a different question" issue - I think what he said is what SHOULD have happened in the scenario if the ref had been on the ball but he has not answered what the referee should have done if he'd found (through his own error) himself in the situation that the question described.
I would like to see Keith answer that too please as well as explain how the ref shouldn't have got into such a mess.
It's like asking the question
"What happens if the referee cautions a player for the second time (but doesn't realise it and lets the player stay on the pitch) until 5 minutes later when it is pointed out to the assistant ref by the coach of the other team?"
and then responding with
"He should have noticed at the time" which doesn't really help!
Coem on Keith - help us out - the ref made a howler to play on for so long but since he did so how should he have wrapped up the situation?
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Andy>
"He hasn't denied Torres the chance to score. Torres had the chance, took his shot, and danced off to celebrate. He is not "moving towards the player's goal". Hmmm."
If you're going to be that pernickety, then I expect there was someone running towards Torres to celebrate with him, and that player would be moving towards goal :)
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The question is if the offense of coming on to the pitch is a large enough 'foul' to prevent a clear goalscoring opportunity. Automatically the player would get a Yellow Card for the dissent, but dissent is not enough to send someone off unless its for a second time- nor is it enough to give a penalty for.
Morally and sportingly the other team should score an own goal or give it to Torres to score an goal unchallenged after a drop ball. But really the referee can't stop and give a goal without it going in, so a drop ball would be the only possibility in my view.
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I would shout for the defender to come over to me, have a word with him asked him why he didnt stay of the pitch until I had signald for him to come back on then issue him with a red card the reasons for are that he denied a goal and that he wasnt ment to be on the pitch at this point.
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Penalty into an empty net for Spain and a yellow card for the defender.
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Defender would receive a yellow card and the game would restart with a drop ball situation in the penalty area
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The defender must be sent off for entering the field of play without permission. The 'goal' should stand.
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NO dropball FIFA ammended the laws the injured player is STILL a player and he is disciplined as a player.
The way this is worded makes me think hard on booking this guy TWICE once for dissent and for entering without permission.
If he deliberately used his hands we COULD get him for DOGSO and award the pk and send him off but no mention of theat.
Admittedly the restart will be an INDFK from where the ball was subject to the special circumstances in law 8 within the goal area.
The fact is a player can kick the ball, he cannot come onto the field without permission and he was SPECIFICALLY told not to.
I am looking to get this guy sent and struggling to find a way? I know as a referee if I saw the player come on to the field I would apply advantage and hollar " I told you do not participate leave the field!" I could then do the double caution show two yellows and claim to the review board dissent and entering without permission I can't award a goal but this guy is not going to be hanging around if I can help it
That said if only a single caution is considered and the yellow card only shown once, while we cannot award a goal only an INDFK the opposition, if they truly understand FAIR PLAY could offer to allow the offended team clear path to goal to make up for the USB action of the defender.
It has been known to happen!
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A good question. To the letter of the law, I think it would be a yellow card for ungentlemanly behaviour and a drop ball.
Oscar_the_grouch, a free kick cannot be taken from the goal line, it would be moved back to the ten yard box - hence its reason for being there.
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The infringement was first coming on the field. Then proceeding to play the ball immediately is second evidence of intent.
However the ref should have blown the whistle when the player entered the field.
The player entering the field will definitely receive a card for entering without permission and since he then interferes with play that should be upgraded to a red.
One can say he has in fact acted in an unsporting manner and committed a foul against Spain.
A free kick is therefore the outcome. The issue is whether it should be where he entered the field or where he entered the play.
I would go for where he entered the play as that is where the initial infringement took place.
Answer therefore RED CARD and free kick at the place he enterd the field.
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Indirect free kick to Spain from the point where the defender kicked the ball. If the wall cannot retreat 10 yards then they stand on the goal-line. Yellow card for the defender. A goal cannot be awarded as the ball did not cross the line. (not fair though!)
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Can't believe the ineptitude of Hackett's response. Typical referee. The scenario was there in full but he chose to ignore it. Why can't he answer the full question rather than change it to suit him.
As for the second incident, I would suggest player is sent off for preventing a goal through foul play. However, should the attacking team get a direct free kick or an indirect one? Alternatively, in this day and age, the ref could book the player and give the attackers an uncontested drop ball in front of the goal! Hopefully they would not miss!
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A red card in this instance is wholly permissable - re-entering the field of play is a yellow card offense, which means that play could be stopped and caution could be given. When an offense that could be punishable by a free kick denies an obvious goal scoring opportunity, this is a red card offense. It's specifically clarified later on that this is true for a direct OR indirect free kick, which means this is a straight red offense.
The penalty is trickier - you can't simply allow the goal. And on paper, this is just an indirect free kick of an offense, and I'm hard-pressed to see where in the Laws a penalty would be allowed, since penalties are only for offenses that would be a direct free kick. It's got to be an indirect free kick from inside the area, so far as I can tell.
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I believe the player coming on to the field and clearing the ball is guilty of ungentlemanly conduct punishable by a yellow card.
As the play has been interfered with, the referee has to decide how to restart play.
A drop ball is an option but that would take away the strong advantage Spain had of scoring a goal.
The correct decision is to award Spain an indirect free kick at the point where the player committed the offence. In this case, that is at the point where he cleared the ball, not where he entered the field (that would take the advantage away from Spain).
So, indirect free kick to Spain on the goal line with the opposition wall 10 yards from the ball. The ball is tapped to Torres who then scores the goal he had clearly been denied.
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penalty to spain, defender sent off - commited a foul (dissent and shouldn't be on the pitch), that was a clear goal scoring opertunity, and he was last man.
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i would look at the lines man first to see what he has given then make my decision based on what he has said but in my own mind i would send him off and give an indirect free kick to spain
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Depends who Spain are playing!
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Red card for the defender as he has illegally stopped a goal scoring oppurtunity.
I did think a penalty, but it would be and indirect free kick. However, the players must stand 10 metres away from the ball UNLESS there is no room to do so (remeber England 5-1 Germany in 2001 when oliver kahn picked up the back pass) An indirect freekick was awarded and the players stood on the line.It was only 5 metres away.
So an indirect free kick from where the defender kicked the ball and a red card.
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unfortunate but i would let play literraly
just carry on!!!
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An indirect free kick is awarded to Spain at the point the defender touched the ball. If this is nearer to the goal than the goal area line then the ball is taken back to the goal area line at the nearest point to which the offence occurred. The defender is then cautioned for entering the field of play without the referee's permission.
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I would call the cops.
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I am certain this ISN'T a red card as that is awarded for denying an obvious goalscoring opportunity i.e. a professional foul or hand ball on the goalline. The only offence the defender has committed is enterting the field of play without the referee's permission which is a caution.
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Erm yellow card for the defender - entering the field of plsy without permission.
If the shot was a certain goal then it would stand wouldnt it? - isnt it the same as if someone/thing gets in the way of a penalty?
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I think the rules need changing if that isn't a red card offence!
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If the defender was the only one of his team with any chance of stopping the ball, I would give it as a goal and book the defender.
If there was another player on the defender's team that had a chance of stopping the ball, I would give an indirect free kick.
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erm tough one. defender booked for coming onto the pitch without consent.
other than that, corner to spain, cant punish someone twice for something.
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I would give a yellow card to the defender and restart play with indirect freekick against defender where the ball was when i stop play.
Thanks!
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Look, you are all wrong. I (being a flawless ref) wouldn't have let the player back on anyway so this scenario would never have happened.
Goal to Spain, other team kicks off from centre circle. End of.
But seriously, if the people who seem to know what they are talking about are correct (yellow and indirect FK only) I'm surprised that this hasn't been done (or maybe it has).
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The ref should stop play, then ask Cesc Fabregas what he would like to do.
Cesc then given ample time to ponder and instruct the ref as necessary. The ref then follows these instructions to the letter, thanking young Cesc for resolving the situation and offering him several compliments in reference to his perfomance in his lucrative tv show.
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Indirect free kick for illegally touching the ball...
Red Card for taking away a goal scoring opportunity by a means that resulted in a free kick
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the defender should be sent off and penalty kick given to spain
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Give a penalty and send of the defender.
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You cannot give a goal if the ball does not enter the goal. Restart is a dropped ball since the player who came on would be considered an outside agent, the same as if a dog who ran onto the field.
How to deal with the player who ran on .. entering the field without the referee's permission is a mandatory yellow card. His behaviour in stopping the ball could additionally be deemed as unsportsmanlike conduct worthy of a caution (I do not think it qualifies as denial of a goalscoring opportunity, since there is no penal foul involved) - therefore the player should be dismissed.
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The player has prevented a definite goal scoring opportunity so its a red card.
As the ball was touched by someone who shouldn't have been on the pitch, you have to award a drop-ball on the edge of the six yard box (you can't do one within it).
However, the referee should suggest to the captain of the defending side that they stand aside and allow Torres to kick the ball unopposed into an empty net. If the captain refuses and a player contests the drop-ball, they may be booked for ungentlemenly conduct.
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The defender should be sent off and a penalty kick to Spain.
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Play continues as the player was actually in the team, just off on the sidelines getting treatment.
When the ball next goes out of play, the offending player is booked for entering the field without the referee's permission.
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Pompey_Ben, sorry mate but what on earth are you talking about. I have never seen a 10yrd box on a football pitch. If an indirect free kick is given in the penalty area, the kick is taken where the infringement occured. If that is less than 10yrds from the goal line then so be it. The wall will form on the goalline. There is nothing in the rules that I know of that prevents an indirect free kick from 2 yrds out with the wall on the goalline only 2 yrds away!!!!
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the defender who springs magically back to life like so many of them do, should be sent off, or booked twice for dening a goalscoring opportunity and for returning to play without the official's signal. a indirect free-kick is then awarded to spain from where the defender cleared the ball from.
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The returning defender gets at least a yellow card for ungentlemanly conduct. If the ball has gone out across the goal line, then it's a corner, if across the sideline then a throw in.
You can't give a penalty because there has been no foul committed.
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i would give the defender a yellow and a penalty to spain even though no foul was committed
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I would show him straight red and award a penalty to spain. Possibly a 5 match ban for the defender
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I would send the defender off for violating the laws of the game in a way that denies an "obvious goal scoring opportunity".
Then an indirect free kick to Spain inside the penalty box (Wikipedia tells all: 'An indirect free kick is also awarded to the opposing team when play is stopped to caution or send-off a player when no specific foul has occurred').
Since the 'foul' was committed on the goal line, the indirect free kick would be on the six-yard line, level with wherever the defender was standing when he made the clearance (e.g. at the left hand side of the six-yard box if the defender was at the left post to make the clearance).
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- stop the game
- yellow card for the returning player (if he has already been booked, the consequences are equally clear - there might even be a chance to interpret his actions as "unfair conduct" = red card)
- play has to be continued with a dropped ball in the place where the ball has been kicked away by the returning player (there is no option to award a penalty since the player "officially" was not admitted to the game at this point)
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if he is off the sideline getting treatment then he isnt wastin time so its a disadvantage for his team not an advantage so he has every right to come back on
at the worst it should be a yellow card nothing else
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Denies a clear goal/scoring chance when he shouldn't be on the field of play which is very clear, so it's a Red Card for the defender, and a penalty due to the offence taking place inside the box.
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I agree with those complaining about Mr. Hackett's failure to answer the question, because in the scenario, the ball had entered the goal.
However, one other interpretation here, as a fellow referee: Mr. Hackett's suggested course of action may itself be wrong anyway.
I'm also a referee, and the advantage rule is generally interpreted such that an advantage has to be gained within the three seconds that Mr. Hackett correctly notes.
The initial scenario doesn't give the implication that a goal was about to be scored, therefore, the required advantage has actually been achieved: the other player got a shot away that was saved. Therefore, the referee cannot say that the only advantage allowable in this situation would have been a goal, because a goal wasn't certain to be scored. Once the referee plays the advantage, it either does or does not occur. In this case, it occurs, and the referee has to live with the fact that it didn't turn out "perfectly;" he can't simply stop play and say this wasn't the 'desired' advantage.
Agreed, a serious foul generally means an instant whistle and the ensuing red card. Which is the entire point of the laws of the game. What is worse in the situation - for something like this to happen or to deny an opportunity by stopping the game? Generally, you blow the whistle and issue the red card. If you don't, you're asking for trouble, and something like this can happen.
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I think that the ref should send the defender off for returning to the field of play without permission and for preventing a clear goalscoring opportunity. Then it has to be an indirect free kick in the area, presumably from 10 yards as the defending team cant really stand 10 yards behind the goal.
However this seems very unfair on Spain and in all fairness the goal should stand but knowing referees, torres and half the Spain team would be booked and the defender would only get a yellow with a drop ball given.
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Looks like ref will stop play yellow the player and award an indirect free kick to Spain from where it was kicked away from goal.Players will after stand on goal line at free kick if its less than 10yards to goal line.
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I would allow the goal to stand and give the player a yellow card for his action.
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I think it should be a yellow card for the defender and an indirect freekick for the attacking side
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I would send the defender off, two yellow cards (Returning to the field of play without the referees permission - defying a referees order, and decent - kicking the ball off the line).
I would then award an uncontested drop ball to Spain from where the defender touched the ball. I would not award a penatly as there is a chance of that being missed, whereas had the defender not illegally intervened Spain would of scored a goal.
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I would not allow the goal to stand, as the ball did not cross the line.
Defender is sent off.
Free kick to Spain inside the penalty box, not a penalty (I remember Real Madrid geting a free kcik that Roberto Carlos converted a couple of years back)
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Red card for the defender and indirect free kick for Spain from the spot the defender touched the ball.
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How could you possibly say that it is a red card and a penalty, when had the player been allowed on in the first place the situation may not have arisen. The referee would initially have forbidden the player's return because of the minor inconvenience to disrupting the run of play, and an injury sould never result in an oppositions goal. Yellow card and penalty.
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It is an indirect freekick to Spain from the 6-yard line I think. The defender is booked for re-entering the field of play without permission.
The defenders have to be behind the goal-line - in this case they do not have to be 10 yards away unless they are on the field of play. They must be behind the goal-line though
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I don't see how a penalty could be given as clearing the ball of the line is not an offence, the offence occurred when the player entered the pitch, and i wouldn't give Spain anything because the offence was more against the referee than Spain, as the player was disobeying the ref. I would give the player a yellow card at the next stoppage in play. imo this rule is kind of silly as it penalises players for being injured. the player may well have been injured by the other team and so had to be on the pitch while the game continued and he had recovered.
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Same rules as when a player deliberately handles on the line to prevent the ball going in. Red card and a penalty. If an offence like this was to happen in Rugby a penalty try would be awarded but as of yet football doesnt have this technology. If you introduced a TV referee or someone in the stands that you could refer this to, you should be able to allow a "penalty goal" and a red card for a professional foul.
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Red card for preventing a clear goal scoring opportunity, and a penalty for the foul.
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Drop ball from where the defender cleared it from and yellow card to defender.
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Red Card....prevention of a Goal Scoring opportunity.
Penalty to Span.
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I think the point here is that, in the rules of the game, there IS NO situation ,whereby a sending off does not apply for an incident, OTHER than .
a player is sent off if he/she:
"denies the opposing team a goal or an
obvious goal-scoring opportunity by
deliberately handling the ball (this does
not apply to a goalkeeper within his
own penalty area)
or
denies an obvious goal-scoring
opportunity to an opponent moving
towards the players goal by an offence
punishable by a free kick or a penalty kick"
So i think the referee has every right to proceed in a manner in which he sees fit.
Therefor I think the referee is within his rights as an unbiased official to decide what will happen within the spirit of the game. Most likely penalty/red card. I don't think anybody would disagree with this decision.
I firmly believe that in a matter not covered within the laws (not against the laws!) Dispensation must be given to the interpretation of an official rated good enough to officiate at the euros,
Or maybe I'm alone in thinking that the spirit of our beautiful game is still foremost in the officials mind.
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I think no matter what the ref decides, sooner or later a load of Chelski fans will invade this thread and blame it all on Cristiano Ronaldo...
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I would caution the defender and award the goal.
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Pretty straightforward according to the laws of the game I think.
Stop play then a yellow card for the guy running on - entering field of play without ref's permission.
Think that's it.
Discretionary means of stopping play would be maybe a drop ball where the ball was when you blow up, which you'd imagine the attacking team would contest.
Sorry Fernando, nothing else doing.
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Sending off for the Spanish captain for unwisely raising his arms in the resulting millieu. Two other bookings for ungentlemanly conduct in the same affray.
Penalty awarded to Spain and a booking given to the errant defender for Disobeying My Orderz. further booking given for ungentlemanly conduct.
Early bath run by opposition physio.
Spain allowed to brick up one quarter of own goalmouth.
Opposition goalkeeper forced to wear stilts.
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Law 12 - yellow card... for re- entering the field of play... without permission
and under the guidance notes of loaf page 95 - 3rd point - could be caution (2nd) acts in a manner which shows lack of respect for the game...
as for re-start - law 8 applies drop ball - is away of re-starting after a temporary stoppage....
to many people who think they are referees... need to start attending RA meetings or at least read the LOAF.... frankly not good enough...
so far.. from a assessment point of view..
Arine 60 / 100
shenref 65/100
yorkshire ref 83/100
keep right on.
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At 8:22 pm on 04 Jun 2008, The_Spandex_Mahatma wrote:
Opposition goalkeeper forced to wear stilts.
_____________________
Very prudent.
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i am going for a different angle. i do not feel a pen can be given because pen applies to fouls and handballs, denying a goal scoring opportunity through one. dropping the ball is not a common sense decision. a booking is warranted, as the standard penalty for coming on without permission would be a booking. i would beat the daylights out of the offender for making my job hard and to make sure next time hes off the pitch he stays off the pitch.
PS a goal cannot be awarded if the ball has not gone in.
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I would give a yellow card to the defender and award a goal. If awarding a goal is impossible i would give a penalty to Spain.
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how DARE anyone do that to torres !!! ;-)
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I totally agree with 251 only a caution ( re-entering the field of play without permission) and restart with a drop ball at the edge of the 6 yard line (outside interference). Although in the circumstances the defending team may not wish to contest the drop ball...............some chance.
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I would book the player who cleared the ball off the line and quite simply give an indirect freekick from the goal line (where the ball was cleared off the line)
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its a yellow card for re entering the pitch... and i believe a drop ball on the 6 yard box...
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Just a question for all the 'yellow card for re-enterting the field of play' people:
Whilst re-entering the field of play without the referee's concession is usually a technical offence, with no mal-intent and rightly punished with a yellow card, the foul commited here has clearly been made against the spirit of the game and has been an entirely illegitimate attempt to stop a goal. Surely, then, Law 12, note 15 applys:
"If, in the opinion of the referee, a player who is moving toward his opponent's goal with an obvious opportunity to score a goal is intentionally impeded by an opponent, through unlawful means, i.e. an offense punishable by a free kick (or a PK), thus denying the attacking player's team the aforesaid goal-scoring opportunity, the offending player shall be sent off the field of play for serious foul play in accordance with Law 12(n)."
Given that re-entering the field of play is punishible by a free kick, doesn't this note also apply?
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Note that in the above I'm presuming that 'free kick' includes IFK and DFKs
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i'm not sure if it will be anything more than a yellow card for the defender, and then a drop ball?
the defender has only committed one offence, and that was to re-enter the pitch without permission, and thus a yellow card. some people have said denying a clear goalscoring opportunity will mean a second yellow, but it doesn't say he handled the ball, and as far as i'm aware clearing a ball off the line is not an offence! i'd say a yellow card to the defender.
then i would guess the referee would award a drop ball (because again there has not been a 'foul' as such) and in the spirit of the game it would hopefully be an uncontested one in front of the goal, allowing spain to get the goal they should have had. hopefully here the defending team will not attempt to dispute the drop ball - unsure if the referee can demand that the defending team stands back from the drop ball?
i don't think the referee can award a free-kick (definitely not a penalty) as the defender has not committed an offence ONCE HE IS BACK ON THE PITCH, his only offence being to re-enter, the clearance itself not being an offence.
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i would dismiss the player fir dfiance and give an indirect free-kick from where the shot was taken.
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I would send off the player who has run back on and give an indirect free kick to the attacking team
P.S serves Torres right for showboating
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# 282
"Given that re-entering the field of play is punishible by a free kick" - but re-entering the pitch is not punishable by a free kick. it's an offence that you get booked for, but to date i have never seen a team awarded a free-kick at the spot where a player has entered the field without the referee's permission.
"...a player who is moving toward his opponent's goal with an obvious opportunity to score a goal is intentionally impeded by an opponent, through unlawful means, i.e. an offense punishable by a free kick (or a PK)..." - but here the PLAYER is not impeded, torres himself has not been impeded, the defender has cleared the ball away. and as re-entering the pitch is not punishable by a free-kick then surely no sending off can occur?
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Some odd answers in there! I can't believe it would be anything less than a penalty but I've got a nasty feeling it might actually be a drop ball. As far as the offending player goes a yellow card would probably suffice in the eyes of the law. If I was the ref in question and it was at my discretion I would either red card the player and start from a drop ball or yellow card the player and award a penalty depending on how close to the goal the ball was when intercepted.
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A yellow card for the defender for entering the field of play without the referee's permission. By doing this, he has not committed any form of dissent, so cannot be cautioned for this. He has also not denied a goal scoring opportunity, as his infringement was entering without the ref's permission.
Although he is a member of the team, he wouldn't be classed as a player until he was legally on the pitch, so until the referee permits him to come on, he is classed as an outside object, so an indirect free kick should be awarded to the attacking team where the player touched the ball, just the same as you would do if a dog ran onto the pitch and interfered with the ball. You cannot award a goal as the ball has not crossed the line.
So essentially- a yellow card to the defender and an indirect free kick from where the defender touched the ball. When restarting, the defender should be off of the field of play and not enter until the ref gives his permission, or else another yellow card.
I'm a referee myself, and although a complicated question, I'm annoyed at some of the suggestions that have been written-it's also funny how much stick we get when some of the fans don't even know everything! And I'm not saying I know everything either, so if I have got this wrong please don't hate me for sounding such a smart a**!!
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#58 - what keith hacket has basically pointed out though is that the first scenario was ridiculous. it is practically impossible for the first scenario to have occurred, and therefore hackett would have had to have admitted making a number of mistakes in order to answer the actual query. what would have been gained from answering the actual scenario since no professional referee would have allowed play to continue as it did?
and as for saying that this explains some of the decisions made by referees each week, i'd be more concerned if the referee had made the mistakes suggested by the scenario.
maybe if the BBC had given a plausible scenario.......
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The defender that came gets a red card no doubt he was off the pitch, came on unvited and stopped a clear goal. The goal should be awarded but maybe with a sending off you give a penalty?? I would send the defender off and allow the goal, harsh but thats football for ya!!!
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Just read littlesam's comment (# 289).
Before that comment my opinion was that the defender had re-entered the field of play without the referee's permission which in itself warrants a caution. He did this with the intention of stopping the goal which I would have interpreted as denying the opposition a goal-scoring opprtunity (or the actual goal in this case!) which is instant dismissal. For the attacking team? A penalty on the basis that the offence warrants foul play.
However, I've read the above comment and littlesam appears to have a better taske on this than me..!
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i would give a yellow card to offending player for entering the field of play without consent, and a drop ball from where the ball was when the player entered the field.
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I Would Give the Pkayer A red card and also give spain a penelty as the player stopped a goal scoring oppertuinity and it would be like a foul last man thing. Also the player didnt listen to the ref so its obviously a sending off offensense. i would give a penelty because you cant really do a dop ball on the line. And in direct free kick dont seem fair all the player would just line up on the goal line and stop the goal. th only way spain would a real scoring oppertuinity is to give a penelty. or just risk it and give them the goal. i personally would give penelty. and give a yellow car dto an one tat moans about the decision also shows consistency in a ref.
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i have noted a number of comments about this being a ridiculous scenario......and yet yesterday's scenario is deemed normal? compare:
1. player hacked down in his own half, ball immediately drops to a striker in front of goal, keeper saves and ball cleared straight up to the hacker who is kept onside by the injured player and scores.
2. defender runs onto the pitch and clears a shot off the line that has been 'tapped' towards goal
really....which is more likely?!
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Yellow card for defender for entering the field of play without the referees permission.
Indirect free kick to attacking team 10 yards from the goal line in line with wear the offence took place. The wall must be on the goal line.
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I think the goal should stand and the defender should be sent off for disobeying the referee and denying a GREAT goal from Fernando Torres (Liverpool's number 9, by the way)
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Littlesam's comment 289 is easily closest or maybe spot on... maybe because he know what an outside object is he understands what we refs go to ref school for.
Yellow Card ... indirect free kick from where ball cleared, agree...... but if he is indeed classed as an "outside object" such as a dog running on the pitch maybe could be given as a drop ball situation...let see how Keith judges it
Either way offending player banished to the sideline again.... until ref gives permission.
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1) no gola can be awarded; the whole of the ball did not pass over the goal line, etc
2) caution to the offending player for entering the field of play without the permission of the referee;
3) indirect frree kick awarded to the non-offending team at the point where the ball was located when play was stopped
4) no penalty kick can be warded; no penal offence was committed
5) the refree may, at his or her discretion, caution the player , if he or she deems that the defenders action in clearing the ball constituted unsporting behaviour. This being a second yellow card, would result in dismissal for receiving a second xaution in the match
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Drop ball in the six yard area at the point parallel with the goal line where the offence occured.
Yellow card for the player who came back on for re entering the field of play without permission from the referee
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i think the right thing is to send off the defender for denying an obvious goalscoring opportunity, and a drop-ball on the edge of the 6 yard box.
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Give the defender a yellow card and a bounce ball in the corner of the 6 yard box
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Only a yellow card for entering field without permission.
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75: As a referee, it truly saddens me that you can be so horrified by fans wanting Fair Play to be applied. You are correct in law, but there is no sense getting upset about people wanting a result that would undeniably be more just.
I respond to your comment about the abuse you get by saying that this attitude of superiority is poor game management, and you'll know how that can impact on player and spectator behaviour.
Many other sports have provisions within their rules or laws for just this sort of occurrence. In the NFL, for example, there is an offence known as the Palpably Unfair Act, and a touchdown can be awarded if a touchdown is clearly denied in these circumstances (say, by a substitute running onto the field). Football's arrogance in refusing to admit that it can learn from other sports has driven me nuts for years.
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lmfao this really does explain why us referees get all the abuse at park leval
nobody knows the laws of asscoiation football
this is a easy yellow card for the defending player and an indirect free kick to spain where the offence occured
and as for the keith hackett answer
any referee would never allow himself to be put into that situation as they will have blown inmmediatly for the foul without looking if there was going to be an advantage
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Sorry, 70 thefatref, not 75.
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298 STOCKPORT LINER congrats on the cup final this year and happy retirement from that leval this year
I think i know who you are
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In the fifa list of bookable offences it is an offence to re-enter the field of play without the ref's permission. so thats a booking for starters. In the sending-off offences it also says that it is a sending-off if you deny an obvious goal scoring opertunity doing one of the bookable offences. therefore re-entering the field of play and denying an obvious goal scoring orotunity should then resort to a sending of for the player and a penalty awarded to the opposing team which in this case is spain.
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With regard to today's question. The player will be cautioned for entering the field of play. Unfortunately for Spain, he is considered an outside influence and is considered in the same way as a dog or spectactor and however unfair it appears the result is a drop ball on the edge of the goal area (six yard line) parallel with where the ball was stopped (the closest point to goal that the ball may be dropped).
With regard to those who have stated that Hackett failed to answer yesterday's question - he definately answered by showing that a good referee would not have allowed the situation to occur. Referee training uses this specific scenario to show why you should never allow advantage in a sending off situation (tap ins excluded). Had he been daft enough to allow play to continue he would have had to allow the goal, and could then have had the pleasure of standing in front of his county FA and explaining just why he had been assaulted
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i would send the defender off for deneing an opponent a clear goal scoring oppertunity.
and for ignoring what i said.
i would also give spain i penelty because i cant see how a drop ball or a in derect free kick would be fair.. i would treat it like the defender had snapped torres. in the box so i would award a penelty and give a yellow card to any player who argued or disagreed with me
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I would award a straight red card to the offender for unsporting interference with an obvious goal-scoring opportunity. Then Spain is awarded a penalty kick.
As another reader noted, even if the referee only books the offender for interfering with play, the offender has committed two fouls: coming onto the pitch without the referee's permission, and interfering with play. Thus he deserves, if not a straight red, two yellow cards, and he is off in any case.
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#290
the whole point here is to test your knowledge of the rules by describing a scenario that you are unlikely to see, one that by definition is extremely improbable. To answer the question by stating why it is improbable is just unintelligent on so many levels.
Sorry but #58 is spot on. Mr. Hackett's answer is shockingly incompetent. Indeed mind blowing.
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yellow card for entering the pitch without permission, and i reckon indirect free kick for Spain. Though the idea of a penalty seems much more just.
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I would give the defender a red card combined of 2 yellows (1 for illegal re-entry to the field of play, and the other for one on illegally deniing a goal scoring opportunity), and becuase he illegally denied a goal penalty to Spain
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For those saying Hackett doesn't have to answer yesterday's question, as it was ridiculous: a couple of years ago, I would have thought a player getting 3 yellow cards without a red was also very unlikely, yet it happened.
This is meant to be fun, answer what would happen IF a referee had got into that situation. If it was not a ridiculous situation, "You be the ref" games would be utterly pointless, and not the fun yet informative exercise they are meant to be.
Ignoring the exact question he was asked "Should the goal be allowed?" doesn't do much for the name of referees. Tell me how the law applies to the situation the referee finds himself in.
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There should be a penalty to Spain and the defender should be shown a red card.
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It is clear that the player needs to be cautioned because they have entered the field of play without permission. As a clear goalscoring opportunity has been denied they could be given a straight red for that, overriding the yellow.
"If play is stopped by the referee to administer
a caution:
the match is restarted by an indirect free kick
taken by a player of the opposing side, from
the place where the ball was located when
the referee stopped the match*"
I quote from the laws.
As the referee should stop the match at the point of the clearance on the goal line, it is an indirect freekick to be taken from the edge of the 6-yard box parallel to the goal line.
"An indirect free kick awarded to the attacking
team in its opponents’ goal area is taken from
the goal area line parallel to the goal line at
the point nearest to where the infringement
occurred."
Defenders may stand on the goalline to defend it.
"all opponents are at least 9.15m (10yds)
from the ball until it is in play, unless they
are on their own goal line between
thegoalposts"
P.S. with regard to ref 1 problem, which I got exactly right, why does Keith Hackett only allow 3 seconds. The rules merely state "a few seconds". Where the hell does he get 3 from. In some situations consistent with that scenario it could take longer for the shot to occur.
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We have discussed this sort of situation whilst I have been learning to become a ref and decided:
1. Play is stopped
2. The defender should be shown a yellow card for "Entering the field of play without the permission of the referee"
3. Play is re-started by an indirect free kick, from the point of re-entering play, to the attacking team (i.e. Spain).
Harsh but can’t be a penalty because that means it was a direct kick offence and there are 10 clearly defined direct kick offences.
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I would have to send the defender off as he illeagally prevented a goalscoring opportunity, and award spain an indirect free kick at the point where the defender touched the ball, or a least 10 yards away from the goaline.
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Yellow card to the defender (for entering the field of play without the permission of the ref) and a drop ball from where the defender played the ball (even if thats on the goal line)
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Award a drop ball and send of the defender for preventing a scoring opportunity.
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DFO - I don't mind if Hackett gives an opinion as to what he would have done to prevent the scenario developing but he should also have answered based on the full question. Every single person on this site could twist the question to suit their own opinion but doesn't that evade the point of the exercise!!!
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318 spursboyluke
if that's what you've learnt it's not very good. Read the laws:
Restart of Play
If play is stopped by the referee to administer
a caution:
the match is restarted by an indirect free kick
taken by a player of the opposing side, from
the place where the ball was located when
the referee stopped the match*
not where the player entered play.
As the ball was on the goal line
an indirect free kick awarded inside the
goal area is taken from that part of the goal
area line which runs parallel to the goal line,
at the point nearest to where the infringement
occurred
and so on read 317 carefully
they all quote the laws
http://www.thefa.com/TheFA/RulesAndRegulations/FIFALawsOfTheGame/
you can download the pdf from there
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Yellow card to the defender for re-entering the field without permission, and another for feigning injury equals a red.
Pick up the ball, stand on the six-yard line, call Torres to me (if he's not in my face already) wave all the other players away (including the keeper), drop the ball at Torres' feet and tell him not to miss.
Letter and spirit of the Laws both satisfied.
Then run like Hell...
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In accordance to law 12, at the next stoppage, the player should be cautioned and shown a yellow card for entering the filed of play without the ref's permission.
That's it. No penalty , no goal.
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no goal cos the defender blocks it
play on cos hes in the field of play
maybe a yellow card for dissent
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Actually, I was re-reading the scenario and the memory of Hernan Crespo going off the field to tie his laces, and then going back on and immediately blasting a goal in the top corner comes to mind.
Therefore, maybe the defender would not be cautioned at all and Torres' goal would not stand.
To be honest, this would never happen in real life as Fernando Torres would clearly blast the ball in!
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The rules are clear
PLAYER OUTSIDE THE FIELD OF PLAY
If, after leaving the field of play to correct unauthorised equipment or kit, to be treated for an
injury or bleeding, because he has blood on his kit or for any other reason with the referee’s
permission, a player re-enters the field of play without the referee’s permission, the referee
shall:
• stop play (although not immediately if the player does not interfere with play or if the
advantage can be applied)
• caution the player for entering the field of play without permission
• order the player to leave the field of play if necessary (infringement of Law 4)
see 317 for further details
If the referee stops play, it shall be restarted
• with an indirect free kick for the opposing team from the position of the ball when play
was stopped* if there is no other infringement
Clearing the ball off the line is not one of the ways you can get a direct free kick or penalty, so there is no other infringement.
It is not a drop ball, that is for when the stoppage didn't involve any unfair or cautionable offence.
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I suspect that the letter of the law would result in a red card (outside chance it could only be a yellow)
I don't think a penalty would be awarded. Indeed, I suspect it would be an indirect free-kick being awarded within close proximity of the goal area.
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I haven't read all the previous 300+ responses, but I suspect no one has applied my logic.
Initially I'm going to ignore what the rule book says or might say, because this can and should be changed to make the game fairer and prevent cheats from gaining an advantage, which is all too often the case.
The rule change that came into the game relatively recently that meant injured players are removed from the field so that the game can restart, no matter what the circumstances, was a poor move.
In the scenario posed today, I would allow the defender to return to the pitch as soon as he felt he could (he would not need permission from anyone) but only if his injury came about as a consequence of a foul committed by Spain, which is quite likely the case. Let's face it, Spain would have been benefiting from playing against 10 men in the build up to the goal scoring chance on the back of their misdemeanour. Therefore, in this situation, it would not be a goal nor a penalty - the referee should wave play on.
I could go deeper into this by suggesting that in the first instance the game should not have been restarted until there is parity (again assuming the injury came about due to a Spaniard), either 11 vs 11 or 10 vs 10. Either the injured player is given a fixed period, say 60 seconds, to recover (a lot of football injuries are knocks that render the player incapacitated for a short while - they can often be run off), or is temporarily replaced by someone from the bench, or the opposition (Spain in this case) have a player temporarily removed.
However, if the injury to the defender did NOT come about as a result of a foul on him, then by returning to the field of play, against the expressed wishes of the referee, then he should be sent off. Again the rule book should change to allow Spain to be awarded a goal, similar to a penalty try in rugby (and I'm no rugby fan).
But given the rule book has not changed(nor is it likely to do so, unfortunately), players enter the field of play knowing that the referee's decision and authority is final - if you don't adhere to that then don't play or follow the game. Then, since the defender was clearly told to remain off the playing surface and didn't, he should be sent-off and Spain awarded a penalty.
By the way, the answer from Keith Hackett to yesterday's question was looking acceptable, until the "three seconds". What a load of garbage! Promising situations develop in games all the time that end in a goal effort occurring more than three seconds in the future - you've got to allow the advantage to develop.
I'll try and be a little more concise in future.
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Not sure it counts as dissent, un-sportsmanlike conduct, acting outside the spirit of the game, yellow card only though, can't give a goal, so an indirect free kick, where the incident took place, opposition 10 yards away, on the goal line. GOAL! fingers crossed.
Oh and remind the player the ball must make one complete revolution when the ball is moved for the free kick, he cannot score directly.
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I believe the correct decision is to book Torres for his haircut. It's a girl's haircut and therefore should be deemed ungentlemanly conduct.
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After reading a few of the posts, I've relaised a glaring mistake in my previous statement.
As the player is seen as an outside object, there would in fact be a drop vall, not an indirect free kick as previously stated. For example, if a dog ran onto the pitch and touched the ball, neither team can be penalised, as it is not the fault of either team. Therefore, a drop ball is the only way to restart play without penalising/giving a benefit to either team. The drop ball will therefore take place at the point where the outside object touched the ball. The offending player is still awarded a yellow card for entering the FOP without the ref's permission
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I have had this situation being a referee myself - the player that re-entered the field of play without permission would be cautioned for re-entering without permission - and a drop-ball would be implemented NOT on the goal line but parallel to the incident on I think the 6 yard line if I can remember correctly - I shall have to find my old 'The Laws of the Game' referee book.
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I would give Spain one of those freekicks inside the box where he made the clearance and give the guy a yellow card. This is the same as some others except for the other people gave a penalty. I'm not sure that you're allowed to give a penalty for that.
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its a yellow card for the defender
and a indirect freekick should be awarded. the position of the freekick should the position of the ball when the player entered the field of play, because thats when the initial infringement took place.
on an aside, i agree with those who believe hackett didnt answer the question.
the bbc have dropped a clanger by asking him to give an answer. the only person worse than hackett would be sepp blatter
the bbc should have asked someone with some actual credibility like graham poll (unless the questions relate to how many yellow cards will equal a red card....he might struggle there) or better still Collina.
but the bottom line is ditch hacket
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As usual Hackett hasn't answered the question.
Nowhere does he say 'allow the goal and send off the goalscorer'
Instead we get an explanatin of what he would have done. Unfortunately for real referees retrospective decisons aren't possible.
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littlesam you are smoking some good stuff.
Okay, so a dog saved the shot... well that makes sense then. And not just a dog, but a neutral dog that just wanted to join in! Wait a minute... it wasn't a dog though... the question implies that the defender ran onto the pitch SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE he sees that Torres will score if he doesn't. It implies that he was off the pitch receiving treatment very close to the goal, had been specifically instructed not to come back on, and seeing the goal in progressjumped up and kicked the ball away. So this is not like a dog saving the goal. It would be like the trainer treating the defender or the defender's manager running onto the pitch and saving the goal. It is a deliberate and outrageous violation of the rules. And you'd resolve it with a laugh and a drop-ball?
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I would probably book the defender and give a penalty to Spain (probably not if it was Germany or Argentina though haha).
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#333 How can you compare a player blatently infringing the rules and stopping a clear goal to an "outside object" like a dog running onto the pitch? I do not know what the exact law said, but if it just a yellow card and a drop ball then the punishment does not fit the crime.
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PS whitejim03, yes book Torres and also Voronin for having girls haircuts. Then again, Torres does also have a girls face.
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Littlesam -
The rule book defines Outside Agents saying:
"Anyone not indicated on the team list as a player, substitute or team official is deemed to be an outside agent as is a player who has been sent off."
I'm afraid the dog theory is out.
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Surely this is the perfect example to introduce rolling subs. Why should the team of the injured player be disadvantaged by having one less player on the pitch? If there was another player on temporarily in his place the goalscoring situation may never have arisen and would therefore need no action. I say it's time football caught up with the times and started using rolling subs and video refs.
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Defender sent off, drop ball at 6 yard box, no goal. Players not allowed to leave or enter field of play without permission from ref. Goals only count when the ball crosses the goal line.
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in my opinion, (unfortunately) all you can give is a caution to the def - for re-entering the field of play withou the refs permission - and a drop ball where the offence occurred. then nail the defender for a 2nd yellow next time he so much as sneezes!!! :-)
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I think on this occasion I would keep my cards in my pocket. I would award a bounce up from where the ball was cleared by the defender and suggest that the defending team stand aside and let the attacking team score. I am sure this would happen anyway but it would have to be a bounce up, no question.
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Since the individual was a player, and not a substitute, I would caution him and show the yellow card. The reason would be for entering the field of play without the referee's permission. I would not send him off (i.e. no red card), and restarting with a penalty kick is not appropriate (no foul, no PK).
Assuming that the ball has not gone out of play, I would restart with a Indirect Free Kick for Spain at the spot where the ball was when I blew the whistle. If I happen to recognize who the defender is and blow my whistle when the ball is in the defender's goal area, the IFK will occur on the "6-yard" line. The restart is an IFK is because I've stopped play for misconduct, but not for a foul.
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Liberally apply scythe to offending player..
... that'll teach him!
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Yellow card for returning to the field of play withoiut permission. Red card for denying an obvious goal scoring opportunity, while technically not a player on the field of play, or unsporting behaviour. Unfortuantely, not a penalty kick as it is a technical foul. So it is an IFK on the gaol area. Report from the referee, seeking further sanctions on the player for unsporting behaviour.
Taffy, Australia
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By entering the field without permission for the sole purpose of preventing a goal, the offense is similar to an intentional hand ball for the same purpose. The player should be issued a red card, and a penalty kick awarded.
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I would allow the goal and give a yellow card to the player as a punishment...
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As the player has rejoined the game without permission and stopped a goal-scoring opportunity, he must receive a Red card. The ball is deemed to be dead where the ball was touched/stopped and a drop ball must be awarded. This I believe is the law but not a just outcome.
Tony in Melbourne, Florida.
Torres wouldn`t give the defender the opportunity to clear it anyway. Scenario is null and void .. ;- ))))
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Easy: No goal, bounce ball and red card.
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It seems to me the laws are open to interpretation and the referee has several options on a) how to punish the defender; and b) how to restart.
What would I do? I admit to being a rugby referee, and never having ref'd a soccer game in my life, so I am a great believer in the "spirit" of the game. In the spirit of the game the defender is a cheating b...... and desrves to get sent off, so red card for him, for coming on without permission and denying a goal scoring opportunity. I don't have rugby's "penalty try" option, so the next best thing is a penalty award to Spain on the basis that a clear goal scoring opportunity was denied by foul play inside the box.
Am I srtrictly within the law? I don't know for sure, but in rugby the ref is always right -even when he's wrong, and soccer could learn a lot from rugby, as has been previously extensively discussed around the issue of respect for referees.
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Surely the one thing a ref could not give in this situation is a goal. The ball has not crossed the line and, if the defender had been legitimately on the pitch and had illegally stopped the ball it would have been a penalty, not a goal (and a red card, of course). However much it may seem the "right thing to do", I doubt that a red card would be the appropriate sanction under the rules, and would guess that a yellow card would be all that is allowed. Also, I can't see how a penalty can be given as no actual foul has been committed, and the only offence is re-entering the field of play without permission. Probably an indirect free kick on the edge of the six-yard box and defending players to stand on the goal-line (with bookings for anyone who comes off the line before the kick is taken). So, to sum up - indirect free kick and a yellow card (then a second yellow for dissent when he inevitably bellows in the ref's face to complain)
Finally, Spain must have been playing Scotland because David Tennant is the beaten 'keeper.
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Yellow Card and indirect free kick?
By the way I agree with 337 above re Mr Hackett. Are we basing our answers on the scenario as described or do we have carte blanche to apply liberal amounts of 20-20 hindsight?
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The issue I've got with this is that we 're probably never going to find out who's right or wrong. That's what happened with the first point. We all agreed that we'd all never have let it get that far, but the interesting bit is what should we have done if it had.
If he cops out and doesn't answer this one properly then i reckon we should all stop answering. All we'll get otherwise is no answers to our questions, just a bunch of people on their high-horses who 'have been on referee courses' telling us we're wrong and that they must be right.
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Now only if my name was Graham Poll:
I'd book the player once for entering the field of play without permission, once for not following my instructions and then again for ungentlemanly conduct then book the ball as it clearly stopped a clear goal scoring chance.
If the ball let any hot air out at me I'd give it a second yellow card and a final warning.
I'd then dismiss the assistant ref for trying to tell me something about the laws of the game.
And award a try for Wigan.
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Some are getting upset about Hackett's response to yesterday's question, saying that he didn't answer it, but this is a little unfair.
To provide a full answer to everyone's interpretation would take pages of explanation.
While I do not agree entirely with the ruling he provided (the three second ruling is ridiculous), the answer is reasonable. Play would be stopped after the advantage had gone.
Now, if the referee hadn't seen the initial foul, then play would have continued and a goal would have been given and the player who had committed the foul would be unpunished. Of course, one would hope that the perpretrator or his team mates or their manager would not allow this to happen - we live in hope!
Then, only if the referee's assistant did see the foul but could not draw the referee's attention until after the goal was scored, then the referee could and would disallow it and send the guy off. Otherwise the goal stands and, admittedly, there is general distaste about the whole situation and the state of the game.
Hackett does not need to explain this - it's obvious.
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Entertain at all costs - I'm afraid he does need to explain it. You have given us another possible scenario about what the referee would do if the whistle was not blown after the advantage. By definition, the fact that there have been lots of different answers means that it is not 'obvious'. But don't tell me, you've "been on a referees course"......
I'm afraid in trying to sound clever you have proved my point.
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I would stop play, then caution the defender for entering the field of play without my permission, and then (unfortunately for Spain) restart the game with a drop ball on the goal area line perpendicular to where the defender touched the ball.
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304 - CartmanEasyE
I hear what you say about other sports having rules that cover this kind of thing and perhaps Football should embrace them. At this time, however, what you suggest is not within the laws of the game and consequently no referee can look to apply their own view of ''justice'' however right they may think they are.
For sure, the punishment does not fit the crime in this scenario - but that's life. I don't say that's right but there you have it. A referee deciding on their view of justice would lead to anarchy (just see how many views of this scenario there are) and that's kinda what the referee is on the field to prevent.
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The problem wasn't with Hackett's answer, it was in the way the question was phrased. It's like asking, "What if a team brought on a sub, but didn't take anyone off, and just when you, the ref, noticed, the player who didn't go off scored a goal. What would you do?" Hackett's answer made the most sense - let play carry on until the goal-scoring chance was over, then blow the whistle and send off the offending player. No ref would let play carry on to the point that the guy who should have got a red scored a goal. Well, except Graham Poll.
The Beeb seem to have realised the error of their ways by simplifying question #2. To which I'd answer red card and indirect free kick from wherever the illegally returning player touched the ball.
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I was at a game in the 70's at Marine FC in which the above actually happened.
The injured played came on and kicked the ball off the goalline for a corner.
The referee at that game booked the played for entering the field of play without permission, but as the ball was booted out for a corner, he gave the corner.
With the current laws of the game, it should be a yellow card and an indirect free kick to the attacking team.
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I've changed my mind - it's not a drop ball on the goal area line, it's an indirect free kick to Spain. The defenders must be 10 yards away, OR on the goal line in between the posts. Either way Puyol would come up to take the freekick, score directly form the kick, and the I'd have to remember how to restart the bloody game from there!!
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In 317 I should have said the player can be sent off for denying a goal not a goal scoring opportunity, as some other people have noted it doesn't come under that heading exactly.( I didn't have time last night to read some of the other posts and check all parts of the rule-book.)
However there is a separate offence of denying a goal which goes along with it and is more or less the same thing as far as the spirit of the game goes.
I quote from the interpretation of the laws section:
Denying a goal or a goalscoring opportunity
There are two sending-off offences that deal with denying an opponent an obvious opportunity
to score a goal. It is not necessary for the offence to occur inside the penalty area.
If the referee applies advantage during an obvious goal-scoring opportunity and a goal is scored directly, despite the opponent’s handling the ball or fouling an opponent, the player cannot be sent off but he may still be cautioned.
Referees should consider the following circumstances when deciding whether to send off a player for denying a goal or an obvious goalscoring opportunity:
The rest of 317 I stand by.
By the way I am not a referee. I just check the rule book before I post.
It should be a straight red not two yellows as the more important offence takes precedence over the minor one.
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I would eat the defender and attack Fernando Torres for the cheek
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i would red card Fernando torres and give the defender a pat on the back
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The 1st Phil,
Never been anywhere near a Referee's Course, nor likely to.
The answer is "obvious" if the referee did not see the incident and was not helped by another party. This is the point I was attempting to make.
But I accept in this scenario the referee did see it, and therefore would play an advantage until such time as that advantage was no longer, which occurs well before the goal. In appreciating this, the scenario would not run its full course. If it did, then the referee would have had a memory loss and then his decision to allow play to continue beyond the defensive clearance would have meant a goal would be given. Otherwise, the referee did not see the foul in the first place.
The referee's decision is final, but he might find his future less prosperous - I'm not sure if the question "What would you do in this situation?" covered post-match dressing-downs - perhaps it did?
I don't wish to defend Hackett, but the question posed is one which you must allow him some slack, unlike the second poser yesterday (Wednesday).
I don't consider myself "clever", I just try to apply common sense and not get too upset about anything.
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There are plenty of grounds for sending off the defender, stopping a clear goal scoring opportunity being the main one. It should be an indirect free kick with the defence on the goal line.
This defender is a bit wasted, if he can get from the half way line to clear a shot off the line in a couple of seconds he should be at the Olympics.
Can we make these cases more realistic please!!
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Actually 363 hendero there is a specific answer to that in the rule book
Goal scored with an extra person on the field of play
If, after a goal is scored, the referee realises, before play restarts, that there was an extra person on the field of play when the goal was scored:
The referee shall disallow the goal if:
the extra person was an outside agent and he interfered with play
the extra person was a player, substitute, substituted player or team official
associated with the team that scored the goal
The referee shall allow the goal if:
the extra person was an outside agent who did not interfere with play
the extra person was a player, substitute, substituted player or team official
associated with the team that conceded the goal
so the goal would be disallowed as common sense would suggest would be the case
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I would give the defender 1 yellow card for coming onto the pitch without authority and another Yellow card for unsportsmanlike conduct resulting in a red. I would also award a penalty to Spain
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I must admit as someone who actually refs sunday league this one got me thinking! I must say Im glad this has never happened in a game I have officiated.
In my opinion there is no chance of allowing the goal to stand as it is not a goal, it has not crossed the line.
I would book the defender of unsportsmanlike conduct, and award an indirect freekick to Spain. The freekick would be taken from wherever the defender had blocked the ball. I would be torn between this and awarding it where he ran onto the pitch, but that would be taking an advantage away from Spain that they had before the ball was blocked.
The defender would be warned about his conduct in addition to the yellow card, and I would keep an eye on the little so-and-so for the rest of the game! It would go in the report too and if FIFA (or in our levels case the district association!) want to take any further action they could, but I doubt they would.
I should add I am only forced to officiate at the level I do as a team manager and the league often dont organise us a ref! Are you busy sundays Keith?? I have full respect for the job you and your colleagues do.
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I work for UFIA; So I am really getting a kick out of most of these replies. Some of you guys are very good at making it sound like you know what you are talking about. But trust me.... You don't. I think you just want to make yourself sound smart, when in reality you don't know what you are talking about. This is how bad info gets passed around. If you dont know about the topic....Dont make yourself sound like you do. 'Cos some readers believe anything they hear.
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Thanks pompey4europe for the explanation about goals scored with 12 men on the pitch. One of the great things about these forums is how much one learns.
On the Torres incident, some people have been asking how a player can make it so quickly from the sideline to clear the ball off the goal line. I understood the scenario to imply the player had been receiving treatment behind the goal line. Do the rules currently allow this, or do injured players have to go to the side of the pitch?
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Contrary to at least one poster, there is no requirement for a player to go to the centre line before re-entering the field of play.
Re-entering the field of play without the referee's permission is a yellow card offence (although it isn't dissent as some posters are suggesting). Any yellow card offence automatically results in an indirect free kick. It certainly isn't a drop ball.
The laws don't allow the referee to award a goal in these circumstances and, although a penalty might be natural justice, under the laws no penalty offence has been committed.
The only real question is whether you could red card the defender. In these circumstances, I think you could argue that the defender has denied an obvious goal scoring opportunity by an offence punishable by a free kick, so my decision would be red card for the defender and restart with an indirect free kick to Spain.
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371 - Pompey4europe
Not sure what you're on about here. No goal was scored. The defender cleared the ball before it went in...
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374 - Unitedabroad
So apart form having a dig - what's your answer!
And who are UFIA?
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I would caution for re-entering without permission (C6).
Then 2nd caution (S7) for unsporting behaviour (C1) .....
restart with a drop ball.
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378. At 10:16 am on 05 Jun 2008, Yorkshireref wrote:
374 - Unitedabroad
So apart form having a dig - what's your answer!
As I wrote yesterday:
48. At 4:11 pm on 04 Jun 2008, UnitedAbroad wrote:
It depends on which team the defender is playing for.
If he was playing for Spain, the ref should yellow card him for disobedience.
The ref would then have to send off Torres for pulping the defender.
/could happen :)
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Stop play. Award an indirect free-kick to Spain on the 6-yard line closest to the goal-line clearance and caution the player that came back on without my permission.
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380 - unitedabroad
And that's your considered opinion is it?
The picture tells you that it isn't a Spanish defender - so what's your answer?
You've set yourself up by criticising people's lack of knowledge - but have not offered a sensible answer yourself.
Again, who are UFIA? You cite the fact you work for them for some reason - probably to enhance your credibility - but you don't say who they are or why you working for them gives you added insight? Or could it be UEFA and you can't spell?
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Indirect free kick to Spain at the point where the player entered the field of play - booking for the defender. Its tough on Spain but thats the law I'm afraid... Still they'd have a free kick in the penalty area...
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Just Googled UFIA... and got
UFIA UF (University of Florida) IAIMS Architect
UFIA Uniting Friends In America
UFIA Unsolicited Finger in the Anus
UFIA Urbaniana Friends International Association
UFIA User File Information Area
UFIA User-friendly Flexi-IT Approach for Education
Which one???
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I would Caution the offending player for entering the field of play without the permission of the referee. The offence took play when he crossed the line not when he cleared the ball.
I would then award Spain an indirect free kick on the edge of the 6 yard box parallel to where the offence took place.
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Yes yes yes, we are all in Mr Hackett's debt for pointing out what SHOULD have happened in scenario #1. If his answer is the only answer that is acceptable then the answer to #2 SHOULD be - I would not have allowed the player to come onto the pitch without permission therefore Spain score and there is no problem whatsoever. This is not satisfactory.
We were GIVEN a scenario in #1 and the ball is in the back of the net!!! What do you decide? And to all the people who are saying the answer is obvious - well the answer to #2 is obvious - if you accept 4 or more different answers. We were asking Mr Hackett for a supposed definitive answer.
Yes, the ref in #1 would have to be a total clown to let play get that far, but he did. That is what we are given. Highly unlikely but so is scenario #2. I can think of several objections to its feasibility, some of them already noted.
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Send the defender off for unfairly allowing a clear goalscoring opportunity and give a penalty to spain as the incident is too close to goal for an indirect free kick.
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The following is an extract from FIFA laws of the game.
a player re-enters the field of play without the referee’s permission, the referee shall:
• stop play (although not immediately if the player does not interfere with play or if the advantage can be applied)
• caution the player for entering the field of play without permission
If the referee stops play, it shall be restarted
• with an indirect free kick for the opposing team from the position of the ball when play was stopped if there is no other infringement
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387 - Chapel Stand Matt..... an indirect free kick (or direct free kick), if the offence occurs in the goal area (6 yard box), the free kick would be taken on the edge of the goal area in line with the offence.
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I would book the player entering the field of play without the permission of the referee. Restart with an indirect free kick as a player has impedes the progress of an opponent. if in side the 6 yard box bring out to the edge of it parreal to where the offence happens
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Its amazing how wound up people get by these things!
The rules are always the rules, but they are always dependant on the refs discretion and judgement.
Im sure I would only issue a yellow to the defender still - dont think there is a precident for booking someone twice at once for the same offence (returning to play and the dissent/unsportsmanlike conduct or whatever else.) I dont think a red card offence was commited. Although thinking about it, if you stop a goal with your hand it is so maybe.... I know I got sent off for it once!
One ref can give a different difinative answer from another because it is always their decision based on their understanding. Hence so many inconsistencies within refereeing this season regarding the offside rule amongst other things.
Again, much respect to the refs from the top right down to the bottom. Theirs is one of the toughest jobs. Not only do they have to run for 90 minutes but every decision will go against AT LEAST 11 players, 1 manager and several chanting fans depending on the level of the game. We have 2 fans at our team, so I dont mind annoying them most of the time. 30,000 would be different!
And shenstone-ref - awesome commitment mate! Loving your post! UFIA Unsolicited Finger in the Anus is still making me giggle like a schoolgirl now 5 minutes later! Made my day mate, not only showing up the ignorant dude looking for a fight but its damn funny too!!!
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Soon as the ball has been cleared you can blow the whilste sent the player off and they start by a drop ball or kick the ball back to the team with the ball at the time x
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382. At 10:34 am on 05 Jun 2008, Yorkshireref wrote:
380 - unitedabroad
And that's your considered opinion is it?
The picture tells you that it isn't a Spanish defender - so what's your answer?
You've set yourself up by criticising people's lack of knowledge - but have not offered a sensible answer yourself.
Again, who are UFIA? You cite the fact you work for them for some reason - probably to enhance your credibility - but you don't say who they are or why you working for them gives you added insight? Or could it be UEFA and you can't spell?
-----------------------------------------------------
After yesterday's K.H. debacle, I have used an ounce of lateral thinking.
Nowhere does it state that the defender is playing for Spain's opposition.
The picture is not big enough to show the action unfolding!
The defender in the picture appears to be some way from the goal line and doesn't appear to have made much contact with the ball, thus "my" Spanish defender has charged in to bury the ball in the back of the net,- and take all the acclaim that goes with that,- only to inadvertently make what is a rather foolish goal-line clearance!
Take or reject my opinion for what it's worth, as many have done with Kieth Hacket's yesterday.
At least mine falls within the guidance proffered ;)
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393 - unitedabroad
You still don't seem to be able to give a sensible answer to the question posed - despite criticising others who at least had a go.
Interesting you also don't seem to want to answer the UFIA question either?
Enough said on this!
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379 shensone ref
- your right... given the 71 in your assessment for incident 1 - you combines total is 80... ok
i see arnie - is still on 60 - after his shocking preformance...
yorkshireref is fighting the corner.... still in high mid 80's
I have to say - some of the "referees" are letting us down big time....
we need a question on offside now!
keep-right on.
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Red card to defender for professional foul(play).
Penalty to Spain.
I can't ever recall seeing a "penalty goal" being given -- ie. like a pen-try in rugby.
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Defender gets a red card and a penalty is awarded!
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The answer yesterday was fair I think by Keith Hackett - in terms of the "you are the ref" scenario's, its assuming that there was a referee before you who made a blatant error in judgement, and then you have "Quantum Leapt" into their shoes after the incident has occured - so poor old Sam has to decide how to correct the situation.
Having said that - Graham Poll should certainly appear in one of these examples after his triple yellow card performance last world cup!!
------------
Onto this example...
If I was the referee, I would gather both team captains together and enforce a drop ball scenario - whereby Fernando Torres would be allowed to tap the ball in. I wouldnt caution the player, but I would give them a stern talking to.
The problem with referee's nowadays is that often they are out to prove a point. The player probably acted in the heat of the moment (big tournament, big pressures) and made a mistake. As long as both teams accept that it was inevitable that Spain were going to score, and correct the situation - I dont see it being a problem.
Should the team captain of the team commiting the offence show no support to the decision, I would send the player off and award a penalty kick to Spain.
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award the goal, but give the player who came on a yellow card and warn him of his future conduct.
He was not interfering with play and only came on to celebrate the goal, therefore the goal should be allowed.
I'm a ref i should know
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bcfcblock17...... so I have redeemed myself then.
There are some interesting responses again today
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"award the goal, but give the player who came on a yellow card and warn him of his future conduct.
He was not interfering with play and only came on to celebrate the goal, therefore the goal should be allowed.
I'm a ref i should know"
----------------
Mate... its not in the rule book, so this is down to interpetation. It isnt a case of "im a ref, I should know" - its a judgement call based on the potential eventualities of the scenario and deeming what is bookable and dismissal offence.
Dont try and come on sounding like your the referee of the world! Its an open debate!
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It would be a drop ball at the spot where the defender touched the ball.
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Yellow card for the defender - entering the field of play without permission. Drop ball where the ball was stopped.
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I'd issue a red card for unsportsmanlike conduct and for dissent. Secondly, I would restart play from wherever the ball was when the player ran on. Play would be restarted with an indirect free kick to the opposition.
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Book the player for entering the field of play without permission. No goal to be awarded as the ball didn't cross the line - indirect free kick to Spain.
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"award the goal, but give the player who came on a yellow card and warn him of his future conduct.
He was not interfering with play and only came on to celebrate the goal, therefore the goal should be allowed.
I'm a ref i should know"
I think you need to re-read the scenario, that answer doesn't make sense...
a) how can he not be interfering with play if he has just made a last ditch goal line clearance?
b) why would he celebrate a goal for the opposition?
c) how can you allow a goal that didn't even go in?
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402.... If outside the goal area
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What a difficult decision, who wants to be a Ref.
I would send the defender off for totally disobeying my instructions, and award the goal as without his intervention the ball would definitely have crossed the line for a legimate goal.
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362 Yorkshireref
You misunderstand me. If I had this game, I would give an indirect free kick, caution the player, pull the captain aside and remind him of his responsibility to the game, then pull the Spanish captain aside and explain that it was all I could do in the circumstances and can he please stop his players hassling me (I also referee RU, so I like pulling captains aside for a quiet word!). My responsibility is to the laws of the game.
My problem with post 70 was the suggestion that fans must be equally dispassionate. They shouldn't. They can't. They should understand why I have to do what I do, and I'm sure most would in the long run, but saying that you are 'horrified' that fans would want something different (and it is plainly more just in this example) only serves to project the image of 'little Hitler/jobsworth accountant' referees that we've spent so long trying to break down.
The fact is that this is an entirely credible situation, and the laws of the game as they currently stand just do not provide an adequate treatment of it. The sanction in no way compensates for the offence. It is not 'horrifying' that pepole are annoyed by this, it's entirely understandable.
Football, in its quest to keep the rulebook simple, makes itself a hostage to fortune. 17 laws are all very well, but there are any number of situations that fall outside them, and a legalistic answer satisfies assessors, but nobody else. I went to a local RA meeting once, around the time of the 'ten yards for dissent' experiment. The Secretary blathered on for hours about how it was a dreadful thing 'because kids in Brazil don't know what rugby is, and won't understand what this rule is about'. Football is too arrogant, and needs either to be more detailed in its lawmaking, or to give its referees a bit of wiggle room. You can't have an imprecise lawbook and instruct people to follow it by the letter.
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I also happen to think Keith Hackett's response to yesterday's poser was right - as soon as the keeper had saved the shot, play would have been stopped as no advantage was gained. Meaning the opposition player wouldn't have received the ball to go on to score - It was a ridiculous scenario to have been posed in all honesty, as anyone who has played/officiated the game to any level would tell you.
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Cartman...
Little harsh on Spain though dont you think, only awarding an indirect free kick? Should Torres have know about the defender being on the pitch legally, wouldnt he have smashed it into the net instead of rolling it in?
I think the only logical thing you could do is convince the players to "even up the score" by letting Spain score what was essentially a fair goal, have a word with (or worst case scenario book) the player who offended explaining that the behaviour will no longer be tolerated, and then carry the game on as normal with Spain a goal to the good
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But brushesdangers, although we have all agreed that the scenario is unlikely and the whistle has been blown long before the ball has gone in the net, the interesting about this question is what would he have done if the whistle hadn't been blown - what if his pea had broken and there was no way of stopping the play?
I don't think there's anyone who's posted on here that hasn't played the game so I don't know why you bothered saying that, but once again you have missed the point of "Ask the ref". The great thing about this is that it is where unlikely scenarios were scrutinised by professional referees and they came up with their response.
I'm sure you can therefore understand the frustration of myself and several others when the guy looks at an interesting scenario, turns round and says, 'Well, I'd never let it get that far'. In effect, he's looked at an unlikely occurence, said that's an unlikely occurence and then not answered the question as set out in front of him. If that's all they were going to do, why bother getting us to type in as the interesting arguements, such as was the guy offside? Can you stop once you've started playing an advantage, etc. That's what we've all been discussing and despite what some people on here think, we have yet to receive an answer on this to put this one to bed.
I hope for the second one he actually answers the question as there's been some really interesting discussion on this as well.
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given torres has an on goal opportunity
and the defender is not meant to be on thepitch
i would advocate a straight red for a professional foul
and a penalty to spain
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409 - CartmanEasyE
I think we are largely in agreement that the laws, as they stand, probably don't provide any justice in a scenario like this.
I would simply never advocate (as has been suggested by some) that a referee should try to twist and bend the current laws to provide their own view of justice (however well-intentioned).
What horrifies me are the number of refs on here who are advocating the most outlandish solutions that are so far outside what the law allows them to do. It is, frankly, quite staggering.
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Excellent comment
412. At 12:14 pm on 05 Jun 2008, the1stphil
I agree entirely.
FWIW, in this case I would yellow card the defender (assuming he does not play for Spain)
Have a drop ball at the point he came into contact with the ball.
This also assumes I am interpreting the refereeing laws correctly, and my common sense went walk-about.
Got to rush off now, Ufia meeting beckons, I hope they have a sense of humour!
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On Ask The Ref #1 - it would have been more helpful for KH to simply answer the questions as put - given that the situation had been allowed to develop as described.
1) Should the goal be allowed - yes.
2) Should the goalscorer still be sent off - yes.
3) What you would do in this situation - not allow the situation to develop (and explain why - as he did).
That would have answered the questioins directly and also given some ''real-world'' insight around this kind of situation.
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I've no idea what the official rules in football govern but I believe a referee should assert his authority and thus I would yellow card the defender for disobeying my instruction to remain off the pitch and then award a penalty to Spain.
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417 - Judas77
.... and then wait for the game to be replayed because, by awarding a penalty, you will have made a major, match-changing mistake in law. And, expect never to ref an international game again (ask Graham Poll how that feels).
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yorkshire-ref...
you are correct - the number of referees - on here making errors in basic law is staggering...
i would make mandatory membership of the RA and also make it a condition of all promotion / cup final for formal assessment from the RA to be included with club marks and assessor marks... they should attend 75% - as it is in their interest for personal development....
i hear people moan about shifts... if it was an FA appointment - they would soon turn up... and this would wake a few up...
simply not good enough... were are the 7000 new ref's coming from - qty not quality... shambles and i have emailed all the movers and shakers about this....
keep right on....
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I would book the defender and award an in-direck free kick on the edge of the six yard box.
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Entering the field of play without the referee's permission is a bookable offence. Unfortunately, the way the defender cleared the ball does not technically break the laws of the game i.e. as oppose to if him handling the ball, so although he does prevent a goal scoring opportunity by kicking the ball away, this is not an offence.
Personally, I consider the player should also be booked for unsporting behaviour, which by the laws of the game is a bookable offence, and therefore sent off.
The play should restart with an indirect free kick to Spain from the place where the defender blocked the ball. If this was within the six yard box, then from the six yard line. Unfortunately, you are unable to move opposition players back 10 yards in this situation.
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I would have yellow carded the defender as well and awarded the goal to Spain.
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1. Play is stopped as the player has committed a yellow card offence of entering the field of play without the referee's permission.
2. An indirect free-kick is awared to Spain as an offence not giving rise to a direct free kick has been committed i.e.
a. kicks or attempts to kick an opponent,
b. trips or attempts to trip an opponent,
c. jumps at an opponent,
d. charges an apponent,
e. strikes or attempts to strike an opponent,
f. pushes an opponent,
g. tackles an opponent to gain possession of
the ball, making contact with the opponent
before touching the ball,
h. holds an opponent,
i. spits at an opponent,
j. handles the ball deliberately (except for the goalkeeper within his own penalty area).
3. The indirect free-kick is taken from the nearest position to where the offence took place i.e. the point of entry to the pitch by the offending player. If he entered by the goal line inside the six yard box the free kick is taken on the six yard line closest to where the offence took place.
4. All opposition players must stand 10 yards from the ball, unless on their own goal line between the posts, until the free-kick is taken.
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420 - That is what I would do. You cannot send the player off.
As for yesterdays answer, what a cop out.
The scenario was stated, the goal has been scored. What do you do next? Not change the scenario to fit what you want.
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markoflea, that was pretty much the same response only a minute after me. I'm glad there is a concensus of opinion. Good stuff. :o)
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to hendero 375
with regard to this, the additional comments don't say anything about having to go to the sidelines (touchline), merely they should leave the field as quickly as possible, but you must re-enter from there if the ball is in play. I also assumed they were being treated behind or near the goal or it makes no sense.
Yes I agree with you, you can learn a lot from reading people's comments. I'm not so sure it is a red now for denying a goal as that may only apply to a handball offence. So maybe two yellows, one for coming on and one for unsporting behaviour.
This is the law
50
Injured players
The referee shall adhere to the following procedure when dealing with injured players:
Play is allowed to continue until the ball is out of play if a player is, in the opinion of the referee,
only slightly injured
• Play is stopped if, in the opinion of the referee, a player is seriously injured
• After questioning the injured player, the referee may authorise one, or at most two
doctors, to enter the field of play to assess the injury and arrange the player’s safe and
swift removal from the field of play
• The stretcher-bearers should enter the field of play with a stretcher at the same time as
the doctors to allow the player to be removed as quickly as possible
• The referee shall ensure an injured player is safely removed from the field of play
• A player is not allowed to receive treatment on the field of play
• Any player bleeding from a wound must leave the field of play. He may not return until
the referee is satisfied that the bleeding has stopped. A player is not permitted to wear
clothing with blood on it
• As soon as the referee has authorised the doctors to enter the field of play, the player
must leave the field of play, either on a stretcher or on foot. If a player does not comply,
he shall be cautioned for unsporting behaviour
• An injured player may only return to the field of play after the match has restarted
• When the ball is in play, an injured player must re-enter the field of play from the touch
line. When the ball is out of play, the injured player may re-enter from any of the
boundary lines
• Irrespective of whether the ball is in play or not, only the referee is authorised to allow an
injured player to re-enter the field of play
• The referee may give permission for an injured player to return to the field of play if an
assistant referee or the fourth official verifies that the player is ready
• If play has not otherwise been stopped for another reason, or if an injury suffered by a
player is not the result of a breach of the Laws of the Game, the referee shall restart play
with a dropped ball
• The referee shall allow for the full amount of time lost through injury to be played at the
end of each period of play
• Once the referee has decided to issue a card to a player who is injured and has to leave
the field of play for treatment, the referee shall issue the card before the player leaves the
field of play
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Yellow card the player as he must wait for the ref to give him the signal to re-enter play. Same thing happened to Beckham a few years ago.
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Book the defender and give the goal.
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The defending player is cautioned for entering the field of play without the permission of the referee and play is restarted in accordance to law, depending on where the ball left the field of play (corner, or throw-in). The only offence is the player re-entering the field of play without permission, no other laws have been broken.
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I think you send the defender off for Unsporting Behaviour.
When he entered play he was an external agent and therefore you should restart with a drop ball.
The drop ball should be on the 6 yard line parallel to where the block occurred.
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If the referee is Steve Bennett:
You would book Torres for having the shot on goal. If the covering defender is, say, Evra, you would take no action at all.
If the referee is someone who doesn't have a Manchester United duvet on his bed:
When the ball next went out of play you would send the defender off for two bookable offences (within the same offence) and order an indirect free kick at the spot of the infringement.
Will be interested to see the answer to this one!
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how can you give a drop ball to one team ???
Its time this nonsense was gone along with the kicking a ball out of play for any injury...
yellow card for defender, contested dropped ball at site of incident
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bcfcblock 17
I agree about membership of the RA being invaluable and that reading of the LOAF is necessary for referees to understand the Laws, but the answer you've given is incorrect in Law.
The correct answer is given in post #165. Read Law 3 if you think this is incorrect.
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To all those that agree that Keith Hackett didn't answer the first question and want another 'proper' answer' (see my post No. 58) does anyone know if we can start a separate thread to lobby for a 're-answer'?
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Hackett's answer was the correct common sense response.
It's when refs start taking the letter of the law too literally when trouble and indecision arises.
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I think its an Indirect Freekick from where the player cleared it off the line, and a yellow card for that player
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433 - MarkyB
A regular on the RA forum if I am not mistaken!
Reckon that's nearly right - but my view on the restart is that it would be an IDFK where the ball was when the referee stops play to administer the caution and not where the player entered the field.
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Under the rules of the game, I believe that the only action the referee can take would be to stop the play and give the defender a yellow card. I doubt that the clearance could be considered a "professional foul" so I don't think a red card can be given.
The restart would most likely be a drop ball from the location where the defender made the clearance. In the interest of fair play, the ref could instruct (or at least ask) the defeinding team not to contest the drop ball, thereby allowing Spain to score the goal they were denied.
I do think there is a strong case for changing the laws in this situation though. I feel it would be benefial for the ref to be empowered to award a goal (similar to a penalty try in rugby) as this would remove any controversy from the situation.
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I would give a booking to the defender and have a drop ball. I would ask the person involved in the drop ball on the defending team to play it into his own net. More than likely the defender who made the on the line clearance as an extra punishment as I was kind not to send him off. If the defender refuses to do this then a second yellow for dissent and an indirect free kick to Spain.
This way the goal is scored and the player is not sent off, so the game does not become one sided or dirty as people feel hard doneby.
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The last man has illegitimately and deliberately prevented a goal-scoring opportunity, and has done so inside the penalty area. A red card and a penalty seem to be the logical answer going by the rule book.
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Marky B -
law 3 page 47 point 5 - ok...
thanks for the feedback.... but you have to agree some of the so-call referees are a miles away from the correct answer....
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437 - Yorkshireref
Yes, I do post on the RA forums... so I hope I'm giving the correct answer!
Post 165 says the IDFK is taken from where the ball was, or that's how I read it!
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Entering the field of play without permission is a caution, but the more severe offence of the goal-line clearence by this player, means it's a dismissal.
Penalty awarded to Spain.
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My final thoughts before the thread is closed soon I expect.
One yellow-coming onto field without permission
Second yellow and red-unsporting behaviour (catch all-exactly for this kind of unclassifiable behaviour)
Indirect free kick on goal area parallel to goal line if play stopped immediately defender clears it. Defenders on goal line.
Not sure ref can make them not defend the free kick or yellow card them if they do. Doubt if it would be uncontested in Euro08.
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Just read Keith's answer - dare I say I think he's wrong on the (location) of Indirect free-kick restart.
The stopping of play to caution the player is what decides where the restart takes place - not where the player enters the field or where the ball is played (unless the ref blows really quick and the place where the ball is played is also where the ball is when he blows his whistle).
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Having had time to reflect after my UFia mtg, I would:
Award an indirect free-kick to the opposing team from the place where the player touched the ball. Caution him for entering the field of play without permission.
:)
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My Twopence worth:
The offence was entering the field of play without permission.
The whole issue of him clearing the ball off the line is just a red herring.
As long as he didn't handle the ball or foul another player then he has not committed an offence.
Would you send him off and award a penalty to Spain if the defender had been back on for 2 or 3 minutes without the ref noticing and had then made a fair tackle and conceeded a throw in on the halfway line?
As I say, the only offence he has committed is to re-enter play without permission.
I would let play continue and caution the player when the next stop in play occurs.
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Having seen the Hackett verdict, the laws of the game (or is it the interpretations by the officials) are, as I suspected, a joke.
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You are the ref #3 is on the main page!
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Law 3 says that a yellow card should be awarded if a player enters the field of play without the referee being informed. Play is restarted with a free kick from the location of the ball at the time of the infraction.
Law 12 says under sending off offences: A player, substitute or substituted player
is sent off and shown the red card if he...is guilty of serious foul play...denies an obvious goal-scoring opportunity to an opponent moving towards the player’s goal by an offence punishable by a free kick or a penalty kick.
Law 12 also says: An indirect free kick is also awarded to the opposing team if a player, in the opinion of the referee: commits any other offence, not previously mentioned in Law 12 (this offence is not mentioned), for which play is stopped to caution or dismiss a player. The indirect free kick is taken from where the offence occurred.
We can see Law 3 says reentering in this manner is an offence punishable by a free kick and so does Keith Hackett in his own response to this question. Therefore the player should be sent off based on Law 12 for either serious foul play, for denying an obvious goal-scoring opportunity to an opponent moving towards the player’s goal by an offence punishable by a free kick or a penalty kick, or for accumulation of two yellow cards: one for reentering play without the referee's consent and one for unsporting behavior for committing a foul for the tactical purpose of interfering with or breaking up a promising attack. Play should be restarted as per both Laws with an indirect free kick.
Law 13 says: an indirect free kick awarded inside the goal area is taken from that part of the goal area line which runs parallel to the goal line, at the point nearest to where the infringement occurred and all opponents are at least 9.15m (10yds) from the ball until it is in play, unless theyare on their own goal line between the goalposts. So that settles the question of where the kick would be taken from.
Because Keith Hackett did not believe the player should be sent off shocks me and I tend to agree with EntertainAtAllCosts in comment 448.
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You cannot award a goal if the ball doesn't cross the line. Last man goal scoring chance, foul play = red card. Indirect free kick.
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I would send the player off and award a penalty.
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We will shortly be closing this question, so thank you all for another day of great debate.
We have had a few people asking us for some clarification on Question #1, in response to Keith Hackett's answer.
We have been in contact with Keith to find out what would have happened had he mistakenly allowed play to continue until the end of the passage of play where the player that committed the red card offense scored a 'goal'.
Here's what he had to say:
"If the player who I intended to send off had scored the goal, I would with great embarrassment have disallowed it and sent the player off the field of play, re-starting the game with a free-kick from the position the original reckless tackle took place. I CERTAINLY WOULD NOT HAVE ALLOWED THE GOAL TO STAND. If the team who I had applied the advantage had gone on to score I would have allowed the goal then sent off the player for his reckless challenge with excessive force that endangered the safety of an opponent."
We hope this has cleared up any issues.
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