- 17 Jun 08, 10:06 PM
London
Italy's survival instincts served them well as they scrambled into the quarter-finals of Euro 2008 at the expense of a dreadful France team that must now be dismantled.
They have not looked like world champions as they navigated the time-honoured "group of death" to secure a last eight meeting with Spain.
Spain have looked as impressive as anyone in the tournament, but would you bet with confidence against Italy beating a team whose collective nerve has failed under pressure on the big occasion before?
Take the World Cup in 2006 - Italy started slowly and grew, whereas Spain started fast and failed when it mattered.
I well recall blogging from England's base in Baden-Baden two years ago and indulging in some mockery of Italian fans who rode around the town waving flags simply to celebrate qualification from the group stage.
You'd think they had already won it, I wrote, tempting fate spectacularly. Just a couple of weeks later they had, and there was not enough humble pie to go around. My new Italian friends were not slow to let me know about it - hence my reluctance to write them off ever again.
Italy may be stripped of their influential midfielders Gennaro Gattuso and Andrea Pirlo through suspension, but if Spain have finally found the bottle to make an impact on a major tournament, they must show it against Roberto Donadoni's side.
They must hope Italy's strikers continue to misfire, with Luca Toni's finishing a glaring weakness - although his track record ominously suggests that won't last forever.
Spain, fuelled by the magnificent front pairing of Fernando Torres and David Villa, have all the weapons to take advantage of an Italian defence that is vulnerable without the talismanic Fabio Cannavaro.
The question is can they summon up the self-belief? No-one has ever doubted Spain's ability, just their stomach for the fight when the chips were down.
True, they look the real deal this time - but we have all thought that before until our suspicions about their ability to get results at the business end of a competition were confirmed.
I still have my doubts about Spain. They did not look quite as impressive when pressed by an average Sweden side and were lucky to be bailed out by Villa's last-minute winner.
Euro 2008's Group C was as fascinating as everyone suspected it would be from the moment the draw was made, and credit to the Dutch for remaining professional to the end and beating Romania.
Who would have blamed coach Marco van Basten if he had told his second-string side not to go through all the gears against Romania - safe in the knowledge defeat would have taken out a major power such as either Italy or France?
Call me unethical, but if I had been in Van Basten's shoes I would have been more than happy to lose to close off the possibility of meeting Italy at a later stage.
It would have been strategically wise and he may yet live to regret not doing it, but Van Basten and his players respected the tournament and confirmed their status as potential winners.
As for France, it is fair to say we witnessed the end of an era in Euro 2008 as a selection of players delivered compelling evidence that they should not be seen on the international stage again.
Raymond Domenech confirmed his, shall we say, eccentricity, by proposing to his long-time girlfriend live on television immediately after the final whistle. Sorry to sound so unromantic, but it was a farcical finish to a farcical night for France.
And on the evidence of the performance of both Domenech and his team in Euro 2008, he will soon have plenty of time on his hands to sort out the nuptials.
Raymond may have consoled himself by popping the question, but it will have provided little cheer to a French football nation who have watched their team's wretched efforts in the last 10 days.
It is sad to see great players so publicly past their best, and there were plenty on display in the shape of Thierry Henry and Lilian Thuram, with Patrick Vieira merely a spectator.
Thuram did not even pitch up against Italy and at least had the decency to retire fron international duty after the game. Claude Makelele followed suit and Henry and Vieira should also be thinking seriously about their own futures with France.
So Euro 2008 approaches the knock-out phase after impressive group stages which lacked nothing for the absence of England, however much they may think the rest of Europe misses them.
And it will be fascinating to see how free-flowing Spain cope with the hard-nosed Italians with a place in the last four at stake.
If I wanted a team to play for my life, I would still pick Italy ahead of Spain, even on the evidence of what I've seen so far.
Will Italy prove to be the great survivors once more? Will Spain finally turn promise into big results?
The answer may provide a crucial clue to who might be fighting out the final in Vienna on 29 June. Your thoughts are welcome.
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I wasn't all that impressed by Italy tonight - that was more because the French were dreadful. I fancy Spain by one or two.
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Buffon
Acrobatics
Firewall before the net
Juventus Italy doth sing
Your praise
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"Call me unethical, but if I had been in Van Basten's shoes I would have been more than happy to lose to close off the possibility of meeting Italy at a later stage". That statement is not just unethical, it also shows you have never played football and you are unable to understand what playing for your national team means. Nowadays football profesionals are usually misrespected just because the money they earn, but I tell you what, a footballer -profesional or not- do not like to lose even on friendly matches. Just imagine those players who tonight had the only chance to start on the eleven, playing for their country, in an official match for the Eurocup of nations...
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Phil,
you're wrong about how the rest of Europe misses England. Only great sides could make a great tournament.
And England is a great contender.
I hope to see England vs Italy in the next world championship final!
p.s.: I suspect that you're trying to reverse your world cup strategy on Italy. I hope it won't work.
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I would say, that Italy, as usual, had more than their share of luck in this qualifying round (they would probably claim it is the Pope on their side that does it) but maybe, just maybe, this time, their luck will run out.
I certainly can't see this team winning on merit. There are just too many better teams in the way, and I'll eat the crow if I'm wrong
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I'm surprised people actually thought the Netherlands would not play to win.
Maybe it's naive but it's just not in the football culture in the Netherlands to make what could possible be a more tactical decision to lose, instead of just playing for the win.
It was also very hard to actually try and lose from a Romanian side that started with 5 defenders and simply played extremely negative football.
When they were the ones who had everything to win from this match.
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I would have been incredible dissapointed if the Dutch lose just to get the Italians and The France out. As a fan of the Netherlands i wanted them to win no matter what the result of the other match would be. They played with the so called "B" team and they did well, so kudos to them.
They did win for the team and for there country.
MVB plays to win.
Have a good day.
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Van basten couldnt say "dont win" he played the B team and romania were awful. The only thing he could have done is let goals in etc, which is cheating.
see austria v germany of fans in tears as the germans and austrians fix the game as the fans shout cheat, due to not being played at same time, both would stay in.
If you want to be the best then you have to beat the best teams along the way
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Playing not to lose even when you see Italy go up by 1 goal.. the score 0-0 why would you not start to throw everything you have at a side that is just playing to impress van Basten?
And has by the way a shaky defense.
Only France put some real pressure on our defense and they were rewarded with a goal.
Sure they got unlucky with the counter attack shortly after, which seem to become a staple of van Basten's Dutch side.
But still why play 5 defenders?
It makes no sense to me.
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I think some people are being a bit too harsh on Italy. Here's a few point on why I think the Azzurri are pretty decent:
1. On the whole Italy are pretty much the same team that won the world cup, ok forget that because the final want great. The same team that beat Germany 2-0 in the semi which was one of the best performances ever.
2. Overall, watching Italy play football now is actually fun. Cast your minds back to 2004 and beyond that. Italy were DIRE to watch. They'd create one chance every half and score one of them. Now Italy are attacking, less tactical, less cynical. The full backs bomb up the wings, De Rossi and Cassano are fast and skillful. Even the defensive midfielders like Ambrosini and Gattuso are getting stuck in. Come on, how many dire England games have we seen recently? Quite a few.
3. Italy played alright against a fantastic, counteracting Holland. They should have taken Romania apart and I still think should have won 2-1 were it not for some dodgy refereeing. And they could have beaten France 5-0. It's Toni who's looking dodgy but the guy is off his game for some reason. Not Italy.
4. At the end of the day, Italy is one of those teams that people love to hate because they're stereotyped as being ,I guess very un-english. The conception is they're whiny, wussy, boring, slow, negative, divers etc. I agree that things were like that but Lippi and Donadoni have and are steering Italy in a positive, dynamic way. They deserve to be in the quarters and I predict they'll go further, (but they won't beat Holland, unless Buffon saves everything)
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Phil,
I dont think it would have been a good strategy for the Dutch to lose today. That would have meant Romania play Spain in the quarterfinals which I assume would be a breeze for Spain. On the other hand by having to play Italy it is going to be a tough quarterfinals. Whoever gets to the semis will have put a lot of effort in the quarters. I am sure the Dutch prefer semifinal opponents who have sweated out the quarterfinals and not just warmed up there.
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Italy had the misfortune of getting a early goal against in the match they played against Holland.
There are very few teams that can spring back from a early goal against and switch to attack and taking control of the midfield when it's there very first match on the tournament especially Italy.
Italy are always slow starters.
We might live to regret Italy getting through our group but it was simply impossible to lose from Romania who just didn't want to win.
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By the way..Italy vs Spain makes my mouth water.
Don't know about the rest of you footy fans. :)
We will see what Spain is made off.
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I am backing Spain to win - it's about time - however they still worry me despite their attacking potential. Will their defence cope against the attacking might of a top footballing nation such as Italy? It has to be said Carlos Puyol is past his best and a little too slow.
Spain will fancy their chances of scoring goals against the Italians, especially without Cannavaro in the heart of their defence, but equally Italy will fancy their chances.
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The best matches frequently involve the 'minor' teams who are more often willing to go for broke. The 'majors' often play in a more ponderous fashion, guarding against losing rather than taking risks to win. Don't be surprised if the Croatia - Turkey match is more lively than the much anticipated Italy-Spain encounter, or the trumpeted Germany - Portugal clash. It would also make for entertaining viewing if Hiddinck went up against Holland in the last bracket. Spain may have been "lucky to be bailed out by Villa's last minute winner". but Italy were even more lucky to be bailed out by Buffon's sterling save and Holland's final win. Italy also had a much easier route to the final in the last WC. It was France that dumped Spain in the Q-F that time and Brazil in the Semi's. Luck is part of winning in a short tornament like this and it's played an important role for Italy. France just aren't the same without Zizou (who would be?) but congrat's to Domenech anyway on picking such a suitable occasion to propose, it proves once again there are still some things more important than football!
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My predicted final before the tournament was Germany - Italy and you know I think I'm right. Both nations will reach the final with a lot of luck and dodgy refereeing. :)
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Phil, I normally like your articles but in this one you show that you could never be a coach and you do not understand Dutch football entirely. First of all, we had to entertain the Dutch public that tickets for the match and we had a obligation to them to try and win the match. Secondly, you want your "reserves" (they are better than that) to be ready to come on when necessary so it was important to give the likes of Huntelaar and Affellay a game.
Thirdly, Spain - Italy will be a very tough physical match so the winner will most likely be tired going into the semi-final against the Dutch hopefully. If you have ever met or heard Van Basten, he is one of the most likeable people in football and he would NEVER EVER throw a match. Even if we would face the Italians again there would be no regrets if they came out on top. That is life. LEt the good tournament continue!!
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How can anyone say that Italy have been riding their luck?
Have you watched the same games as I?
What about the appalling offside decision against Italy when Van Nistelrooy scored Holland's first? How Pannucci could have been declared "in play" is beyond me! That decision reversed could, and probably would have changed the nature of that game (although in truth the Dutch were better than the Italians)
What about the appalling offside decision against Luca Toni in the Romania match? He was clearly 2 yards onside yet the goal was ruled out. Romania would have capitulated and Italy won convincingly if that goal just before the half time break had stood.
Italy outplayed France and deserved the victory (and if Toni would have been on target it could have been by a much larger margin). Romania were no match for the Dutch second 11. Therefore they didn't deserve to go through.
Italy have had a little luck on occasion but on balance I think its been more against them than for them!
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Van Basten showed great respect for the tournement and football last night because even though he made some changes to give the whole squad a chance to ply their trade at this prestigious tournement he still picked a team he believed could win and what's more is that they did win, which added to Italy's win over France put the Azzuri through and gives Holland a real chance of meeting them at the semi-final stage.
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Canadian,
Sorry can't agree with 'More then their share of luck'.
first of all they lose arguably their most influential player to a freak injury right before the finals.
Second - watch the games again. in the first game they lost an opening goal which everyone in the world knows was offside, despite uefa coming out after and making their claims. that goal completely changed the game.
In the second game they had a completely good goal called back that very well may have seen them go on and win the game.
In the last game they should have won by four goals if it weren't for some horrendous finishing by Toni. I still can't fault him too much though - he did get behind the defence to cause the penalty that was the defining moment in the win.
Couldn't agree more with Kelkar. People like to bash the italians but its rediculous. They oose class but because none play in the EPL people discount them.
Now italy must head into the next game against spain without arguably their 3 best players in the country (Besides Boufon - Totti, Pirlo, Cannavaro) and i believe they will still win. What other team could do that?
Forza Italia!!!!
btw - this tournament has been awesome!! Certainly not missing england....
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funny that Sweden is called mediocre. they had a lot of chances in the first half against spain (larsson, elmander). they may not be the greatest footballing nation in the world but they've qualified for every major tournament since 2000 and that was the only tournament they got knocked out in the first round. they won the group of death in 2002 ahead of england, argentina and nigeria. in 2004 they knocked out italy after thrashing bulgaria 5-0 and only lost to hollan on penalties after hitting both the post and the bar in extra time. this year they have zlatan ibrahimovic, definitely one of the top five strikers in the world. and a quick look in history books also shows us that england haven't beaten them since (wanna take a guess?) 1968.
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France have peen thoroughly disappointing, hindered by their inept coach. Yes, a few have gone on too long but Henry is far from finished. Note that Barca's new coach will install him as a mainstay and bring out the best in him in his best position.
Italy are at best effective, almost always efficient but at times pedestrian and surely they will struggle to cope with the Spanish midfield. I take your point that they have been there and bought the t-shirt but for me Pirlo and Gattuso are major absentees.
Holland are devastating on the break but spend long periods defending and may come unstuck against a more potent attacking force eg Torres and Villa in the semis.
Some mouth-watering action to come but I feel Spain will take home the trophy.
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#4
Got to agree with Phil on this one.
England are crap, always have been and always will be. Europe are completely aware of that and England not being at the tournament is a complete irrelevance.
Discounting home tournaments, Denmark have a better record of reaching the semi-finals of the major tournaments than England.
It's about time England supporters realised that England are in the same tier of international football as Sweden, Denmark, Greece and Turkey. Not Germany, Brazil and Italy.
Great to see an objective view from a member of the English press for a change.
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Also,
I completely agree with the point regarding the Dutch beating Romania. I expect Italy to defeat Spain without too much of a problem. But once the semi-finals arrive the Italians will be a very different proposition, I think the Dutch might struggle against them in the semi's.
You can't throw a game, but I'd have had a wry smile had the Romanians beaten the Dutch.
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I said it then and I'll say it again.
Italy played well against the Netherlands and they played well against Romania. They looked, in both games, a force to be reckoned with.
They didn't have the run of the ball.
Against France, they won. Even though they played pretty poorly.
This Italian team CAN win this competition.
Write them off at your peril!
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How did a group that started playing nine days ago become "time-honoured"?
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As an Italian I am obviously thrilled that we made it through this group after the first game, but I expect us to get a bit of a kicking from Spain if I'm honest.
I can't agree with the comments saying Italy have been lucky in this group. Maybe we were lucky in that we were put in a group with two teams who aren't as good as us, I suppose that's quite lucky. But in the games? We've been pretty average, but got the job done (as ever). This team is in a transitional phase and unluckily minus some our best players, so there is no way we will be able to put up much of a fight against Spain I feel. But I am still proud of Italy for getting out of this tough group - anything from now on is just a bonus.
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Winning tournaments is a mixture of skill and luck - that is, being more lucky than unlucky after everything evens itself out.
Italy enjoyed the luck last night: the Ribery injury and the sending off. The Italian lucky train is picking up speed as it pulls out of the station,( as usual).
Spain flatter to deceive. I agree with the comment that they seemed somewhat clueless against a mediocre Sweden team who stuck to their task .
Who would you put your money on in a backs against the wall situation in a tournament environment ?
Step forward and take a bow, Italy.
Same old, same old.......it's all about mentality.
I'll join the merry band who haven't missed England - at all.
One thing though, whose idea was it to have Steve McClaren as an "expert" summariser on 5 Live? Or does it just irritate me?
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Is Canadiancharles having a laugh when he says that Italy have had their fair share of luck in getting through the group? Van Nistelrooy's opener was very questionable, Luca Toni scored a legitimate goal against Romania which was ruled offside and, again against Romania, the penalty decision given against them was laughable. I also think, along with the BBC pundits, that Abidal was right to be sent off last night and a penalty was the correct decision. I haven't seen much of this so called luck.
I do agree with Phil that you can never right off the Italians, they are notoriously bad in the group stages and Spain are notriously bad in the knockout stages.
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The result from Spain and Italy will have little bearing on the outcome of the tournament. Neither side are playing with the fluidity and skill of the dutch.
The Italiens have proven time and again that they are world beaters and can beat teams playing bably and with less rescouces. Spain are showing encouraging signs. Although technincally acute they have a soft under belly and for all there possetion they still need that cutting edge. torres is world class no doubt, way better than toni.
Without Pirlo (italys best player) and guttaso and with a make shift defence, Spain should win. I dont think they can match the speed of the dutch from what ive seen. They have a great mix os steel defensively, and skill, speed and clinicalness going forwar. Holland for gold or have they peaked too soon?
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Just a couple of points.
Firstly, from what I have seen, Italy have only been the slimmest of margins away from being in the position to really hammer some of their oposition in the competition so far. In order for Toni to be missing so many chances it must mean that Italy are creating??? And I can see the big man starting to score soon....
Second. Holland still have to beat either Sweden or Russia before the semis. This may not be the formality everyone seems to think it will be.....
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"So Euro 2008 approaches the knock-out phase after impressive group stages which lacked nothing for the absence of England, however much they may think the rest of Europe misses them."
So very true.
The fact that France lost twice to us (Scotland) during the qualifiers should have been enough notice to them that they needed to freshen up their team.
Diarra in for Makelele, and build a team around Ribery and Benzema and they've got a chance.
Continue in the situation where Boumsong is in the squad...and they've got no chance!
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I still cant understand why some people are still saying Italy were lucky especially after the many controversial decisions in the preceding matches, luck was far from Italys side.
In addition how was it luck last night ? Italy were still playing better than the French with 11 men and the defender who got sent off stopped a certain goal anyway. If it wasnt for Toni's misfiring Italy would have won by 4 or 5? How can this be lucky?
Against Romania a perfeclt valid goal was disallowed then a dodgy penalty awareded against them which Bufon pulled off a magnificent save..
People calling Italy lucky are just bitter and jealous...as I said Italy had no luck in the first 2 games at all!
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"Kelkar writes of Italy: "The conception is they're whiny, wussy, boring, slow, negative, divers." That's EXACTLY how everyone (except Italy fans and referees) sees them. Toni is one of the worst offenders - a bull of a man yet one who falls over at every opportunity (the white Drogba?)"
Um, no not really. That is how SOME English people (and Australians who remember Grosso and forget Materazzi) see Italy.
The continent meanwhile sees England as having a few talents (Beckham, Gerrard, Ronney, maybe a few others) and importing the rest of the EPL talent.
Most of the more skilled leagues also consider the English as boring, fast sure, but boring, more like pinball with occasional great flipper action. Sure, there is a virtue in not falling down everytime someone kicks your ankle, but it is a poor tradeoff for lack of touch, passing eleagance, control of space, organised defense, etc.. Until you watch a few games with skill and then see the English game in comparison, the skilled game may seem slower, and more boring. But when you watch afew and then turn back, the pinball game seems a rougher lesser version of football.
Overall, (as a neutral with a foot in both camps, I think the whining is about equal everywhere. As they say, if whing was dining, we'd be at the Euro 2008 buffet.
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Well done Italy totally deserved to go through after bad refereeing decisions in the previous matches.
Also I dont understand why some jealous people slate Italy. When you look back in history they have been involved in some of the best games ever played including
2006 world cup v germany
1990 (great solo goal b y baggio)
1982 world cup v brazil (arguably the best game ever)
1970 v germany (4-3) and Brazil (1-4)
so where this boring cynical stuff comes in are from people living in the 60s when italian football was defensive!
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I agree with Phil's thoughts about Italy v Spain. I thought the Spanish looked absolutely brilliant against Russia, but far shakier against Sweden. Italy - in some ways - have nothing to lose. They got out of jail and, with Pirlo gone, don't even to pretend to match Spanish invention and silky skills in the middle of the park. Expect Di Rossi and Ambrosini to really test the shin-pads of Iniesta, Xavi, Silva and Fabregas.
Can Luca Toni score? law of averages says he must. To me his reputation is far in advance of his skill. Yes he's scored a hatful in the last season, but this was in a treble-winning Bayern Munich side. He's just a bit too slow to really cut it - in my view - in the Premier League or La Liga.
But Spain will be quaking. The Italians are their nemesis and all that self-doubt and fait-heartedness is likely to rise to the fore. I see a repeat of Barca v Man U - lots of lovely, pretty Spebish possession, but no penetration. Big hoof to Toni, knockdown - probably accidental (maybe off his left ear) - and Cassano or Del Piero slam it past a suddenly shot shy Casillias. One nil to the I-tal-ians! One nil to the....you get the idea.
Final? It's going to be Italy v Germany - you just know it.
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Spebish ????
I meant Spanish. Goodness.
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Fair point about Toni. A few years ago he couldn't dribble at all. Not he dribbles like a goose tyring to sit on a runaway egg rolling down a hill.
I honestly don't know whether he is good for Italy or not. Without Inzagi, I'm not sure what the options are. Di Natale is better than he showed against Holland but maybe he and Toni don't always match up, probably better to play him with Quagliarrella (however you spell the name).
Spain Italy should be a great game though
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It really annoyed me yesterday when colleagues (and now you) suggested the Dutch should have let Romania win and thus qualify ahead of Italy
How anyone can think deliberatly losing would benefit the team is incredible. If MVB had said in his dressing room, as you suggest, that players were not to perform to their highest capabilities he would have lost all respect from them. Think about the players who started last night who are unlikely to start in the quarters. When their chance came do you honestly think they would not give their all and try to force their way into the starting XI? Think how much confident the Dutch camp is now having gained maximum points from the 'Group of Death'.
To suggest this was a game they could 'throw' for thier own benefit displays a deep misunderstanding of what drives players to win tournaments and trophies - the desire to win every game. The Dutch didn't win th game last night out of 'respect for the competition' they did cause they want to win every game. A mentality that has seen them produce the best and most entertaining football of the tournament to date.
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I'm glad Italy got through. A lot of people wanted Romania to progress and that says something about the English love of supporting the underdog, which is fine.
However, Romania rarely ventured out of their half against France, were lucky to draw with Italy and played a defensive game against Holland (presumably hoping Italy-France would be a draw).
Italy at least went forward in their matches. Yes, they were picked off on the break by Holland (playing in what used to be the "Italian" way) and yes the finishing has been wayward (Luca Toni is all over the place) but Donadoni, though he lacks Lippi's experience and tactical nous, has managed to keep the more attack-minded game.
NO Italian team is ever going to play all-out attack. Few teams do; even Brazil these days play a much more balanced game, based as much on defensive strength as flair coming forward.
I think Italy have learned lessons from the past. They went out of Euro 2004 having played too cautiously against Denmark and Sweden (both of whom they could and should have beaten) and although it's fair to say that poor refereeing didn't help against South Korea in 2002 the overly-defensive tactics Italy employed having gone ahead certainly impress either.
I'm not saying Italy will win. The evidence thus far points to the Dutch, with their fast and incisive attacking players. It will be fascinating to see how the quarter finals pan out though.
After a slow start it's proving to be a very dramatic and thought-provoking tournament. Let's just hope that England don't miss out in two year's time. Mr Capello; over to you!
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I should like to make a couple of observations.
The first is the luck thing. Italy weren't particularly lucky when Toni's goal was ruled offside. They weren't particularly lucky when van Nistelroy's off-side goal was allowed. When Buffon saved Mutu's penalty kick that wasn't luck. That's what keeper's are there for. When Ribéry threw himself at Toni and tore his Achilles tendon that was stupid. When Abidal made a tackle from behind in the penalty area that was pure lunacy. None of this has anything to do with luck.
Second, I should be interested to know when last time was that anyone saw the best team in the competition win it. Italy were not the most technically sublime team in the World Cup in 2006. The were simply the best 'team' ... arguably. Being the best, most graceful, most technically perfect team guarantees nothing.
Third. A wise man once asked that he be brought not good generals but lucky ones.
Finally, those who seek justice in sport are confused. It has nothing to do with honour, fairness, morality or justice and everything to do with winning. I have been forced to this conclusion after watching Crewe Alexandra for twenty years.
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Well well Phil, wonders will never cease - a thoughtful, incisive article even though I disagree with your apparent conlcusion on Italy v Spain. Very well appraised - though you overlook the significant loss of Cannavaro and Pirlo then Spain should have too much this time.
I look forward to you applying the same standard when you next write about the club(s) from the area in which you originate.
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Criticism of Italy for being defensive is harsh because they aren't. They weren't so defensive in 2006 either, I mean they played with 4 forwards on the pitch at one point vs Germany in 2006, I've never heard of an Italian side doing that, have you?
Secondly hats off to them, they deservedly went through. Buffon saved them ivs Romania and the Mutu penalty with his great save. His contribution should not be overlooked.
Finally for all the people saying they are negative and will be dull and physical vs Spain maybe, but it's not like England man for man are more skilful than Italy, very much on the contrary. And whatever happened to Totti? I seem to remember him putting up a good show in 2006.
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Spain will win 2-1 against Italy.
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You are Spot on with your comment that Van Basten might live to regret that he did not allow Romania to win ...What was he thinking ? Italy has always Won matches not because they have outplayed an opposition but because they have had All the luck in the world...Had Mutu converted That penalty they would have been home many days ago , know Spain need to send them Home , which i believe they will , Italy cannot Stop Torres and Villa but as i have stated above they always seem to sneak past the opposition...Look at the last World Cup Australia should have knocked them out of that tournament , had it not been for a very dubious penalty in the 93rd minute...Anyway , the 2 top sides in the tournament have been Holland and Spain lets hope they see it all the way to the Final.
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Agree about Spain v Italy.
It has a 1-0 win to Italy written all over it. Not that I want that but the Italians are experts at pulling that sort of result out of the bag.
Spanish irresistibility stopped by the immovable Italians.
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I must have been watching different games.
Italy have not looked capable of scoring in free play. They drew with Romania, beat a clueless French side and were beaten by what looks to be the new Champions.
Ok, Spain's defense looks more than a little shaky at times, but they can certainly score goals in abundance.
Without, Gattuso and Pirlio I'm going for a 3-1 victory to Spain
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I'm not sure if anyone here is aware that Luis Aragonés has decided to field a team of 10 subs plus Iniesta against Greece tonight... So no Torres, no Villa, no Xavi, no Puyol, no Senna, no Casillas. We won't be much wiser about their collective form by the time they play Italy this weekend. But some good players are playing today anyway, including Cesc Fābregas and Xabi Alonso.
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I suggest that any manager who 'would be happy to lose' does not have the right attitude to lead their country/club to win anything
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Can everyone who keeps claiming that italy are lucky please read the other responses on the board, which actually use evidence to support that they have been anything but lucky?? Otherwise please save your comments for after Englands next friendly.
On luca Toni, I agree he has looked slow. At several points last night he got beat to balls where a quicker striker would have given the keeper a race. But don't try and claim he is overrated because 'he scored goals for munich last year'. If you look at his scoring record over the last three years, you will see he is very much underrated. Outside of european championships and world cups when do you hear his name? When they talk of top strikers he rarely gets mentioned yet his hit rate is phenomenal. Look back to his time in Italy. Playing for a smaller club he was the first player in Italy to score 30 in a season for years.
I do wish he had some more pace....
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"Anyway , the 2 top sides in the tournament have been Holland and Spain lets hope they see it all the way to the Final"
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Probably most peoples' ideal final, but alas it can't happen. They are scheduled to meet in the semis provided both get through their quarters.
Also don't agree with your lucky Italy tag. We all know that RVN goal for the Dutch should never have stood. Italy would have cruised past Romania had they not had a perfectly good goal disallowed and were still the better team anyway. Buffon save was poetic justice. And the less said about France the better.
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Hey guys, and I'm speaking to the Brits especially, let's not be close-minded or, whatever, self-referencing.
I've read too many times comments either strongly on one side or the other one about Italy. You all know where truth is.
I remember an awful Italian team winning against Holland in 2000 - one goal opportunity in 120 mins and 2 penalties missed by Holland: ok, that's luck, but I have never seen a game like that again - and then in the final I remember Italy dominating France in 2000, missing goals, and losing.
I also remember Italy playing against Germany in WC 2006 and winning with 4 forwards: in Germany, attacking, missing goals, against all odds and environment. And then I saw Italy winning against a fresher France in the final, with Italy playing evenly but not well (poor final anyway, too tired).
I saw Italy missing lots of goals againt Romania and Holland and losing or being close to losing.
Football is not science: if the general rule is that Italy is more cynical than England, fine. But that this scientifically translates in bad football, this is ridiculous.
So what? If England misses 8 chances in one half (thing that in practice hasn't happened so many damned times in the past years), it's English footbal, while if Italy misses 8 chances in one half against France this is what? Luck? Toni poorness? A bad game from France?
Stereotypes exist for a reason (some people dive more spectacularly than others, although I remember spectacular dives in spectacular 90th minutes from Raul, Owen, Gerrard, damned Ballack in minute 81 against Italy in the semi-final, and so on...) but that this team plays bad football and this other one plays good football for ever sounds like a 60s-70s argument. I don't buy that. Football changes, managers change, players play increasingly abroad (Fab is considered in Italy one of the most traditional and defensive managers, so old school, so YOU Brits are in trouble now, we never wanted him in the National team). Lippi's never been defensive in his whole life, and I'm fine with Donadoni with the players he has (a team in transition that will change a lot soon, with many youngsters coming out).
So, let's not be self-referencing (E.g. "Torres is the best striker in the world, did you see what he did for Liverpool?")
I agree, Spain is an excellent side, with a group of talents that can finally win something. Other teams better than Italy, in terms of quality? Holland YES, good side (pay attention to defense, though. Bouhlarouz...my god...so much of an amzing player..Hehhe...Italy was surprisingly non-cynical against Holland). Germany? Please. Portugal. Please, we crashed them in a friendly two months ago, shots on target from the spectacular Portugal against Italy: 0. And I think we are done. I was thinking France, but bad management and poor form.
So, being cynical doens't translate in being a bad team. Let's be honest. (Well, sometimes it is: Greece)
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I cannot understand how anyone with any kind of football knowledge can tip Spain to beat Italy on Sunday (or even win the competition, ludicrous!).
Spain are an appallingly bad international side and have never, ever looked half decent against the more established teams.
Russia were dire at the back and weren't a good marker to use to gauge how well Spain will do in the tournament; and, if you remember, they only just scraped a result against Sweden; Sweden!!! And people are tipping them to destroy Italy! Cast your minds back a whole two years ago, how did Spain fair after beating Ukraine 4 - 0 in the first round?
Italy are just beginning to get the rub of the green, I can only see them getting better and better as the competition goes on. They'll constantly miss Cannavarro, which will be the only thing that has a chance of stopping them.
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In Spain vs Italy, sucess will largely depend on who scores first. In Italy does, they will go into dirty defensive mode. Stuff the game and the spectators, they will not play to win but not to lose. If Spain score first, it will force Italy to open their game up and run for a change requiring two goals now. This will wear down older players and expose whatever vulnerabilities Italy may have. If Spain retain the ball and maintain an orderly back four they should win. The truth is that while Italy is experienced at squeezing blood out of almost any situation by any means, they can be beaten if Spain shakes its feeling of inadequacy whenever the two meet. Italy are masters at winning by playing badly and I fear we will see more of the same, including flying heads, elbows, knees. I hope Spain slays the beast on Saturday.
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If Holland were to beat Italy in the semis everyone would say what a great move it was by Van Basten to get Italy through to knock out Spain.
Equally if Romania had gone through, took Holland to penalties and won, everyone would say why did Van Basten let them through.
I think managers should not try and play God in such a situation, they should concerntrate on their own game. I doubt any team would've thrown a game to get another knocked out, I cannot see how a manager of any team could tell his players to do this either.
Well done Holland for putting in 100% and trying to win the match. Dutch football won a lot of friends last night for it's honesty.
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"I remember an awful Italian team winning against Holland in 2000 - one goal opportunity in 120 mins and 2 penalties missed by Holland: ok, that's luck, but I have never seen a game like that again"
We had a Zambrotta sent off earlier on and TWO penalties against us. It was a shame because Italy had played some very good football up until then and it should've been a superb match to watch. The referee killed the game, he was dreadful. Not as bad as the string of obviously biased refs that put Russia, Portugal, Italy and Spain out of the 2002 cup in favour of the 2 hosts, but bad.
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If Italy manages to beat Spain, it can aso beat Holland in the semis.
Van Basten is on the verge of a cliff...
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thuram and makelele are to old but henry is only 30. maybe he just needs some rolfing.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
some of the comments i have read on this blog are very accurate. but there are a few that are total crap.how anybody(other than jealous persons)can say that italy are lucky is beyond me.the game against holland with the van nistilroy goal was a joke. before the goal italy created a couple of chances. that game could then have gone either way, but it didn,t. in the end the best team won. against romania well what can i say italy were without doubt the better side creating better clear cut chances, and also had a perfectly good goal ruled out, this is bad luck not good luck. against the french italy in particular luca toni could have had 6 goals and deservedly thrash the french. it was a definate penalty and a definate sending off.
as for the past look at what italy have won and all the finals they have been in, there is no other side in the world other than brazil that comes close to italys record(germany from europe are close)as i said earlier its pure jealousy.enough said
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Italy looked old, slow, thin and ragged. Perhaps even more so than France - And they had to play with one less player most of the game. And they gave Italy a run for their money for a good stretch of the game.
Sure, Italy usually start slow until they get into gear, and even without their key suspended players they're a team that demands respect, but they haven't really been tested at depth by a vertical, attacking team so far. And when they have been attacked (i.e. by a much younger, energetic and dynamic Holland), it has been painfully apparent that their defence is just as old, slow, thin and ragged as the rest of the team.
I once read someplace that any coach would wish for a team comprised of Buffon and 10 Camoranesis (who, by the way, is a nationalized Argentine), but the only problem is the fact that even he is peaking or just past his prime...
Holland attacked with one forward and two mobile wingers - And they ran Italy into the ground. Spain will attack with TWO forwards, TWO wingers and TWO mobile midfielders. Italy is going to get dead tired protecting against Spain's dynamic passing game. And Spain is going to batter the Italian midfield into submission whenever they get the ball. Chances are, even if their key suspended players were there, Italy is going to need oxygen tanks before half-time to revive their ageing players.
Even playing defensively and betting on clinical counterstrikes, I really enjoyed watching Italy playing at their prime, but I'm afraid there will be plenty more great names dropping out of the International scene before the end of the tournament...
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Italy will win the Euro 2008.
No doubts
Elaborate people...thare are signs, Buffon saved a penalty, the luck of yesterday...
and remember world cup 2006...that penalty against Australia....
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Wow, real original posts. Diving, cynical, lucky...what exactly does lucky mean? Buffon saving a penalty is lucky? Or was it a great save? I guess Ernie Banks save on Pele back in 1970 was lucky right?
Toni's good goal (called offside) was mmm...maybe not lucky? Every champion needs some luck...yeah...even the Dutch will need some luck to win even though they are AWESOME...mmm...wait...they already had some luck with Ruud's goal that was offside. That is sport.
Then I listen to my French buddies how the penalty was provoked...unbelievable....just open wide and drink your medicine.
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You azzurri supporters make me laugh.
1) You might not like the offside decision against Holland, but it's in the FIFA rule book. Besides, it was Buffon who clashed into his own defender. Imagine what teams will do if a player is automatically declared "out of play" as soon as his outside of the byline. Defenders could then play every attacker offside by simply stepping outside of the byline and fake injury.
2) Poor finishing is part of the game. You cannot say you've played "well" when your target man keep missing chances. Creating chances doesn't equal to playing well. At the end of the day only the score counts - you don't get points for winning free kicks, corners, and putting in crosses.
3) Over-confidence. This is not just the players, but the supporters as well. You don't see neutrals hating Brazil do you? Why? Because both their players and supporters let their footballing results speak rather than just trash talk. I see so many Azzurri supporters here thinking that Spain is no match for them based entirely upon past performances. Let me tell you that a tournament isn't won or lost on paper, otherwise Grecce would never never even qualified for Euro2004, let alone WIN it!
4) Only Azzurri supporters would even think about the Dutch conspiring to throw away a game. Just because Serie A was caught match-fixing, doesn't mean the rest of Europe has to be cheaters. For once, blame it on the poor performances that led to Italy's "mini-scare" instead of pointing fingers at refs and other teams with conspiracy theories.
And for the record, Sweden and Denmark DID NOT conspire to kick Italy out of Euro 2004 during the group stage - the Azzuris poor performance did and will do so again this year unless they start playing better to merit any further progress because the Dutch won't be able to save them again!
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Oh Italy as so lucky?..yeah right.
I guess you also think that England were "unlucky" not to qualify.
Yes Italy were one converted penalty away from being knocked out..fair dues..
Every team as its fair share of good luck and bad luck..on the whole it evens out.
Italy have been so lucky to have an obvious offside goal against them, an obvious goal disallowed..
Romania hit the post against them and missed a penalty. Italy had a sure goal cleared off them line at 1-0 ..That's football..
Why don't you English stop moaning (oh sorry that-s an "italian" trait) and go watch something that you're good at..which is..er...err..err...
Vive la difference..
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Hey XxShellShockxX, I understand your comment and I mostly agree with you. I will see troubles for Italy if they don't improve their form and pace.
But let's be precise:
Giorgio Chiellini - Born 1984
Daniele De Rossi - Born 1983
Alberto Aquilani - Born 1984
Antonio Cassano - Born 1982
They will all play against Spain probably and are not that old.
And I don't mind "old guys" like Buffon, Zambrotta, Camoranesi, Pirlo.
Although I agree, this team will need a transition after this Euro 08.
Let's not fall into the trap another time though. Italy starts slow every single time - a question of preparation as well - and is highly adaptable. When they saw themselves 2-0 up against France 1 man up with Holland winning they slowed down in the Italian way a bit (poor second half, let's admit), but controlling easily the game.
I wouldn't evaluate Italian pace from that.
They can probably still play Germany and run for 120 mins as hell. They played a friendly against Spain in Spain recently, running for 90 mins and losing 1-0 by an amazing Villa goal 5 mins to the end, 1 goal disallowed and several missed. Would Spain have done so in Italy? And what's in the middle, alias in Euro 08, in Austria? I don't see that much difference. Was still Spain playing against Sweden...The AMAZING Spanish team? Predictable and lucky to score at minute 92?
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"Yes Italy were one converted penalty away from being knocked out..fair dues.."
Indeed. But in 1998 we were 2 converted penalties away from knocking out the eventual champions and probably going on to the final to play under-par Brazil. Ditto 1990 and 1994. We would've won Euro 2000 had the ref not added extra time on for the French. We would've stayed in the WC in 2002 had we not had 5 (yes FIVE - F.I.V.E!) goals ruled out (every one wrongly) over 4 games and had we not had a paid-off ref from a banana republic playing as a 12th man for Korea! We would've stayed in Euro 2004 and Euro 1996 if UEFA didn't have this lunatic rule that uses head to heads rather than goal difference.
Football is full of ifs and buts and with only a little bit more luck we could quite easily have won 3 world cups in a row in the 90's and Euro 2000 to boot. Give that some thought before people complain about 1 single penalty in a game where we had been dominating before a player was wrongly sent off, and a free kick that lead to a winning goal in a qualifier where a draw would've been fine for us anyway. If anything the gods of football still owe us plenty MORE luck.
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italy went through because they were better than france and romania.... cant really see a problem, justice in my view
spain V italy will be an amazing game, both very poor in defence this time around so i recon we will sees a sack full of goals
spain will be out for revenge from 1994 (also the last time england didnt qualify for a major tournament) when the tassotti broke Luis enriques nose in the box and there was no penalty or anything! low point in football when someone can get away with that!
another interesting fact spain havent beaten italy in a major tournament in 88 years! so history isnt really on there side
my moneys on the spanish
VIVA ESPAņA
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"I once read someplace that any coach would wish for a team comprised of Buffon and 10 Camoranesis (who, by the way, is a nationalized Argentine)"
Born by italian emigrants I think... how many "real french" are in the french team? :-)
Anyway, Italy is a good tem, but Holland has playd much more better. I don't know if we'll get to the final, going through Spain on sunday. If we do, we surely will have fought for it. I am quite surprised of how our players are playing now, they don't start defending after just scoring 1 goal (as it was until a few years ago). This is a good sign.
About the acting on falling... I really think that all teams did learn to do the same! I saw a lot of players rolling on the court after not even being touched by the opponent, and the referees are doing an horrible job, there are too many mistakes and different decisions on same situations.
I'd really like to see the video-testing like it is in rugby or basket matches. It really would resume good football-playing!
Holland was loyal in playing against Romania, but they also playd for a 4million euros reward... not bad, ha? ;-)
By the way: I do miss England in this turnament, I like the team and the people and I was sorry you didn't make it to Euro2008. You are always my second choice when Italy runs out. This time I pick the Netherlands, if we don't make it!
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I don't know how anyone can accuse Italy of being lucky in this tournament, if anything its the exact opposite. They completly outclassed France last night and if it wasn't for Toni's woeful finishing it would have been 5 or 6 nil.
I'm quietly confident we'll win against Spain and if the Spanish media's reaction is anything to go by, even they know whats coming. For the people on here who seem to think it will be a breeze for the Spainards, your so wrong. While its a big blow to lose Pirlo, Aquliani can take his role and while I thought Italy were dead and buried after Romania they showed there strengh last night. This is something that Spain are incapable of. Theres to much pressure on the players due to the unjustified (bordering on racist) hatred the Spanish press have for Italy. It you need proof of this just take a look at what Spains gutter press have printed today. Forza Azzurri!
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You can say all you want about the azzuri but when it comes to FACTS they have 4 stars. Now to me thats a team with pedigree . Lets face it they are a football country better than any other european team ever. I dont care if they lose to Spain or Holland or Germany because we have been there, seen it and done it.
England will never be there because they simply arent good enough and thats why they have a Italian manager to try to let a bunch of losers play like the azzuri.( in their dreams)
Come back when you collect the stars
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Holland performed a class act Italian job on Italy, but don't count on Italy gonna fall in that trap again. It will probably be closer and nastier. Finishing will be crucial.
That's why, as an Italian fan, I am worried.. Toni vs Villa-Torres at present is a complete mismatch.. Why is Donadoni sticking with Toni, I wonder? Maybe he is hoping for him to be the next 1982-Rossi, who needed 4 games to get going...
More likely, we need Cassano to produce a 1994-Baggio performance (I am thinking of the Baggio who single-handedly kicked off Spain, not the penalty missing one) or without Pirlo back there it does look bad.
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Italy played well yesterday but i thought a large part of it was down to france playing poor. Also i feel if spain play there game they will beat italy
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maybe Campioni-del-Mondo should actually visit some of the spanish papers online like marca... im pretty sure the front page is luis enrique qith a broken nose... after your firend tassotti maliciously broke his nose in 1994, and there headline is "italy we havent forgotten"
marca being the number 1 sports paper in spain
cant see the racism in that!
im not defending spains record on racism over the years... cos its awful , but this clearly has nothing to do with it.
VIVA Espaņa!
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Ok so the Italy fans on this thread made a point ad nauseam about luck, and in the process dug up 'facts' about injustices against them over the last 30 or so years. But too many of those facts sound like 'ifs' and 'buts' (if RVN's goal had been 'correctly' ruled offside Italy would have won blah blah blah). Italy got through on merit against the French, but did not look very convincing in their previous 2 games.
I would relish a replay of Holland vs. Italy as a semi final (but somehow think it will be Sweden vs Spain). If there is one team that the Dutch would want to beat again it would be Italy (although Germany in the final would top it all) if only to show (or in this case rub it in) that they are a collective of better footballers. The fact that many English fans don't seem to be liking Italy may have something to do with past experiences
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maybe Campioni-del-Mondo should actually visit some of the spanish papers online like marca... im pretty sure the front page is luis enrique qith a broken nose... after your firend tassotti maliciously broke his nose in 1994, and there headline is "italy we havent forgotten"
We've been waiting for them in the knockout stages for 14 years but they never show up!
Spain have had great teams for decades, but their problem is this; their fancy play will carve the Ukraine and Russia open with ease time after time, but when a team is organised and can deal with the clever flicks and quick passing, when it starts getting scrappy, Spain haven't got battlers, they never have. That is why they always thump the no-hopers but are found wanting when they come up against better sides. Sweden showed just how you deal with Spain.
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Obviously I have looked at Spains papers today which is why I passed the comment. I didn't mention Marca, albeit they have also gone to far with the rubbish the've printed. No other nation provokes such ill feeling in Spain as Italy and the behavour of your media is disgusting.
My friend Tassotti? Why are you bringing up an incident from 14 years ago? Its pathetic!
Spains problem is that they can't see their own shortcomings which leads them to accuse everyone else of cheating. Success breeds jelously. Speaking of cheating what did Marca print yesterday? 'Please Holland let Romania win!' What do you call that then? Forza Azzurri!
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"Italy looked old, slow, thin and ragged. Perhaps even more so than France -"
Sometimes I wonder if people are so emotionally caught up with their particular fetishes (in this case the italian jealousy syndrome) that they actually see differently than normal people.
Grosso and Zambrotta were rampant on the wings while Pirlo and De Rossi were running like maniacs whilst drifting in passes to Toni for clear shots on goal (5-6) (Pirlo) and launching long range missile shots on goal after taking balls away from French midfielders. Cassano, while not as mobile finessed a few perfect passes to Toni, again for open goal shots. Gattuso, while not as quick as two years ago contested every ball, and won most of them.
If anything was shown, it is that either Toni needs to be replaced or he must start making goals I could score.
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i dont call it racism
i call it spain being scared of italy, and wanting to play romania? dont you? haha maybe your spanish isnt up to scratch
the incident 14 years ago happens to be the last time spain met italy in a mjor tournament...
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Of course Spain are scared, the second they meet a decent team they implode. Lol your probly right about my Spanish I tend to stick to the Italian press. I'm aware the last time they met was in WC 1994 but even so you would think they'd have gotten over it by now. Plus nasty incident it was, it doesn't warrent such a media backlash 14 years later. It will only get nastier as we approach the game. Remember the sort of trash Bild where printing before we played Germany in 2006? Greasy pasta eaters etc, expect more of the same from the Spanish rags.
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When I went up to bed last night, my partner thought Italia had lost because she hadn't heard my usual shouts of joy whenever Italia play well and score. She didn't hear anyhting because I was silently appalled watching the match.
What joy is there is playing a team without it's best player (Ribery)? And it always ruins the game for a man to be sent off early. And then, of course, Italia played so poorly.
This is the worst Italian team I have seen since the 1998 World Cup. Where is the pace? The clever pass? The brilliant striker?
Except for Grosso and Buffon and, to some extent, Pirlo, who has played well? Which player, on their Euro2008 form, would make an all-time Italian 11?
I remember watching the World Cup semi-final against Germany when I felt so proud of Italia's perfomance that I didn't care if they would win or lose because they were playing with such heart and beauty.
In comparison, last night was so sad.
Of course, Italia could go on to win the tournament; it's simply our tradition to do well. But this time maybe not: Donadoni is as poor tactician as Sacchi was in Euro 1996.
Forza Italia!
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"Call me unethical, but if I had been in Van Basten's shoes I would have been more than happy to lose to close off the possibility of meeting Italy at a later stage."
What an awful thing to say. Van Basten gave some youungsters the opportunity to play for their country yesterday. And you want to tell them to lose on purpose? You would really take their chance to impress away from them?
This is not the right attitude to have.
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"Except for Grosso and Buffon and, to some extent, Pirlo, who has played well? Which player, on their Euro2008 form, would make an all-time Italian 11?"
I agree to some extent. It wasn't an outstanding display and we sat back far too much in the second half. But I thought there were some good performances. De Rossi was the man of the match for me, pure class, scandalous he didn't get a single minute in the first game what was Donadoni thinking? Grosso looked dangerous on the flank (again left out for some ungodly reason in game 1). Cassano showed flashes, though I feel he was playing far too wide. Really the only thing I would worry about is the lack of cutting edge. Toni looks a yard short of pace, like Vieri did in 2004. I would take him out and give the younger Quagliarella a chance alongside Cassano instead, Toni has had 3 games now and hasn't done the business.
We also shouldn't underestimate the importance of the other game going on at the same time; the players were clearly nervous and distracted. I would've taken 2nd place and qualification from this group at the start of the competition.
Against Spain I'm thinking the following:
Buffon, Grosso, Zambrotta, Panucci, Chiellini, De Rossi, Aquilani, Perotta, Cassano, Camoranesi, Quagliarella
Big problems in midfield with the suspensions. De Rossi is going to have to show his class in this match.
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It's disapointing that the attitude seems to have been that Holland should have lost so they didn't have to play Italy again. In order to be the best team in Europe you need to play and beat the best teams otherwise there is always doubt around you. Hup Holland, so now bring on the Ruskis
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Italy will face thier waterloo this time, they are over rated and luky as hell, they got away with it against France a much better team , in the last World Cup, who were with out doubt the better football side, and if Spain fail to finish Italy of, then Holland will most certainly, I for one will put my money on Spain, since they are the inform team playing better football, and italy are not looking in even the shape they were when they played in the last World Cup.
Italy your luck has run out, not even the Pope can save you!
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In response to post 84....
I'm not sure you're being fair on the Italy '98 team; they weren't bad at all. They only lost to France in the QF on penalties and came closest to winning the game in normal and extra time.
The point is though that Italian players, for whatever complex reason or reasons, simply know how to respond to high-pressure situations. The Germans are similar in that regard.
There are people on here insisting the Italians and Germans have NO chance against the Spanish and the Portugese. Have these people NEVER watched an international football tournament?
I wouldn't be at all surprised if Portugal's nerve fails them against the Germans and even LESS surprised (looking at their track record) to see Spain fall to the Italians, even without Cannavaro, Gattuso and Pirlo.
I'm not saying they WILL win but to write Germany and Italy off as "no-hopers" is rather foolish.
As a side note I thought Russia's demolition job on Sweden was mightily impressive. Their game against Holland could be a classic!
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Italy are always contenders, and it's a credit to them and their nation. The Azzurri usually survive longer in tournaments than lets say England or Austria for example.
This means that people get to see more of Italy actually playing games, and gives the false illusion that Italian players dive, cheat etc etc more than other teams, when in fact other teams and other nationalities are just as bad if not worse, its just that you don't really get to see as much of them, thus giving a false impression that other teams don't do it as much.
How is it Lucky to be drawn in with France again? for the 3rd time in a row, and also Holland? If I were Italian I wouldn't feel lucky knowing that I had to face off with France again, especially after Italy beat them in the World cup, you would think the French would be desperate for revenge and throw everything at Italy, luckily for Italy, france are a spent force in this tournament.
You make your own luck.
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Re post 88: "Italy your luck has run out, not even the Pope can save you!"
The pope is German!
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I can't remember a better set of quarterfinal matches!
If the Portugal's nerve holds and they push forward, their technical skills and speed should overwhelm the Germans. But it is a big "if". They can't seem to score more than one goal when it counts!
WINNER: 1-1 and then Germany on penalities.
Croatia vs Turkey: The match of passion. Surely Turkey have used up all of their luck?
WINNER: Croatia 2-0.
Holland vs Russia: The fastest match on earth? Van de Saar is a better keeper than his Russian counterpart. But the Russians seem to play with no fear. How will Holland feel if they don't score the first goal? And Hiddink will out-think Van Basten.
WINNER: Holland 3-2 in extra time.
Italia vs Spain: Another mental game. Spain has the better players, and is playing the better football. Italia has its history...and Buffon.
WINNER: ITALIA of course, 1-0.
PS: Nice to hear some thoughful comments 86 and 89.
FORZA ITALIA !
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BTW the pope is german, not Italian.
France were not the better side when they lost to italy in the WC final, if they were they would of won.
France only reached the final through penalty goals, and in the actual final Malouda dived to give the French yet another penalty goal, which Zidane nearly missed!
and Toni had yet another goal against the french ruled incorrectly offside.... and then Zidane, not for the first time in his career resorts to violence, on the pitch, in the world cup final no less!
do i really need to tell anyone that he's an idiot? I don't care what materazzi could of said, they were only words, its called sledging and its supposed to unsettle the opposition, have you ever heard the Australian cricket team on the pitch? and they use bats in that sport! it happens in a lot of sports and it's not as bad as physically assaulting someone.
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Coming from Pakistan i would certainly call myself an unbiased and neutral observer to Euro 2008. I feel the comments made so far warrant some useful criticisms:
1. How do you measure luck? The Netherlands were out and out favourites to beat Romania and if it would have been the first game of the tournament you wouldnt be calling Italy lucky when they would have later qualified based on that result. You are only skeptical now that Italy went through because of that happening.
2. Yes Spain are seen to be doing really great, but do just compare the groups. Spain thrashing a very young Russian team (many of whom were playing in their first major tournament). Then Spain looked pretty wary against Sweden (the same sweden who was being rolled over by Russia last night.) And finally Spain gaining a 2-1 win over a Greek side which many didnt expect much of. Now compare that to group C: you just cannot call Spain better than Italy based on what has so far happened. Spain are yet to face a decent defence.
3. Cannavaro's injury, Pirlo getting a second yellow during a period of play which should have been stopped (since Perotta was lying down in France's penalty area and italy were complaining- only later to find that play was stopped later for a fallen french player), two clear decisions of offside and onside going against Italy in their first two matches (both of which happened at crucial junctures). Well certainly not a string of events i would associate with a team deemed as being lucky. And just for rebuttal's sake, how can a justified penalty being awarded be termed as lucky? Its as lucky as any well scored goal. Lastly, i do beleive it is their sheer talent and skill that has kept them in the tournament, i mean Buffon's penalty save and the other blinding saves he has made just show that they have the best goal keeper in the world to rely on.
So lets just say we let the luck debate out of the window and concentrate on the fantastic skill, exuberance and passion on display within an emotionally charged environment. What a spectacle!
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"Italy will face thier waterloo this time, they are over rated and luky as hell, they got away with it against France a much better team , in the last World Cup, who were with out doubt the better football side"
You are talking rubbish.
Italy hit the woodwork in that game, had a goal wrongly ruled out, had a penalty against that was a clear dive. We scored more goals and let in fewer than any other team in the competition. We had most of the possession in the final (look up the stats) and unlike France didn't reach the final by killing the game and defending 1-0 leads. France played horrid football in the world cup, compare their semi final with Italy's classic against Germany.
Far from being lucky it seems that your real problem is jealousy. Envy is a terrible thing! Germans had to put up with the same nonsense when they were winning all the time, it comes with being the best.
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in reply to
I would relish a replay of Holland vs. Italy as a semi final (but somehow think it will be Sweden vs Spain). If there is one team that the Dutch would want to beat again it would be Italy (although Germany in the final would top it all) if only to show (or in this case rub it in) that they are a collective of better footballers. The fact that many English fans don't seem to be liking Italy may have something to do with past experiences
LOL sewedn are out..well predicted
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Italy are renowned to start slow in a tournament and then turn on the heat when it really matters.......
However, I beleive they are seriosuly crippled in midfield with the loss of Pirlo and Gattuso (and Luco Toni misfiring up front)
I think it would be very difficult for them to manage to get through against Spain who has a young energtic team - lets see what happens - Forza Azzuri !
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italy will only win by playing dirty
spain will only win by playing football
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81st minute david villa to score
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in reply to
italy will only win by playing dirty
spain will only win by playing football
and what is your statement based on ?
I havent seen any evidence of Italy playing dirty are you certain you are watching the right sport...you are not getting confused with rugby where the players can get dirty.
football use a round ball and rugby an oval one ;-)
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Well... tonight's result is the first surprise!
Everyone was ruling our Germany in favor of Purtugal.
See how it ended up: 3-2 for the german team. nd they weren't impressive at all in previous matches.
This turnament is really interesting: you can never say how it is going to end!
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I'm pretty sick of other nations underestimating Italy and writing them off as divers and cheats. Most of the simulation and diving we witnessed this tournament has been from other nations, the underdog teams especially. Russia were terrible for it yesterday against Holland- Arshavin expecially.
Although Russia deserved to win- didn't like seeing the Dutch going out especially since they beat my team so mercilessly- wouldn't have hurt so bad if I thought this team was going to go on to win the Euro Cup, then at least Italy were beaten by a team that was going to go on to win.
The upside is that Holland and Spain are very similar as in they peak early- promise alot but always buckle under pressure, South Korea, Australia and now Russia have chucked the teams out of quarter- finals in previous World and Euro Cups- so why not the world champions who have a reputation for surviving against all odds.
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