- 13 Jun 08, 11:15 PM
Berne - 708 miles travelled
Having beaten World Cup holders Italy 3-0 and thrashed finalists France 4-1, the Dutch have made a mockery of the so-called Group of Death - and in doing so have clearly outlined their credentials as potential Euro 2008 champions.
The atmosphere inside the Stade de Suisse on Friday evening in Berne was sensational as the magnificent Dutch supporters lapped up another scintillating performance from their team.
Many had questioned the Dutch's prospects of qualifying from a group that contained such seasoned sides as Italy and France.
But the Dutch players have responded brilliantly to coach Marco van Basten's attacking philosophy and bold substitutions.
Take, for example, the fact that left-back Giovanni van Bronckhorst scored against the Italians with an 80th-minute header from six yards.
And consider also the decision to introduce Arjen Robben for the more defensive Orlando Engelaar at half-time against France with the game finely balanced at 1-0 to the Netherlands.
Van Basten followed that move with the introduction of Robin van Persie shortly afterwards - and his ambition was soon rewarded when Robben crossed for his fellow substitute to volley home.
The celebrations from the bench indicated a squad far removed from the internal squabbles of previous years - and the constant clapping and high-fives further underline this point.
As Van Basten explained: "The coaching staff have a very good relationship with all the players. The atmosphere is very nice."
Uefa president Michel Platini said on the eve of the tournament that he wanted to see players play without inhibition - and in Holland he currently has a realisation of his vision.
Ruud van Nistelrooy may be a more traditional centre forward than previous Dutch strikers, but, with Robben and Van Persie constantly switching flanks and Rafael van der Vaart and Wesley Sneijder providing craft and guile from midfield, Holland have a team rich in attacking promise.
Question marks remain, of course. The Dutch are just two games into the tournament and we have yet to see how they respond if they fall behind. But for their fans, most of whom are currently celebrating with great abandon on the streets of Berne, all is well with the world.
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The same cannot be said of the French. Before the Group C game, a French journalist told me why he thought Les Bleus had been so dreadfully poor in their opening match against Romania.
He explained that the prevalent footballing philosophy in France is known as 'bloc equipe', where the focus is on a very solid tactical formation.
With a World Cup (1998) and a European Championship triumph (2000) in the past decade, not to mention another World Cup final appearance in 2006, such an approach has clearly paid off.
But without Zinedine Zidane's flair and guile to unlock opposition defences anymore, France are looking rigid and defensive, unable to make the most of their attacking options.
France coach Raymond Domenech tried to remedy this against the Dutch by playing just one recognised striker in Thierry Henry but with the talented Franck Ribery roaming behind him.
Ribery covered a huge amount of ground and constantly sought out the ball, but, as Arsene Wenger explained last week, Ribery and Zidane are very different players.
Ribery has pace, can dribble and can burst through a defence. But Zizou was the finest modern example of a player who could get the most out of people around him. His reading of the game, sublime passing and incredible technique were ideally suited to releasing his team-mates and exploiting space.
It might have been an extremely miserable Friday the 13th for the French, but all is not lost just yet.
They created many more chances against Holland than they mustered against Romania, and Van Basten admitted after the game that his side had been under sustained pressure towards the end of the first half.
"Today we were a little bit lucky and we got the goals at good times," he said.
The game could have been very different had France equalised. Henry, in particular, wasted one very good opportunity in the second half when he tried to lob Edwin van der Sar.
But now the French must face Italy in the group of death's game of death.
Italy, notoriously slow starters at major tournaments, have also disappointed and, but for Gianluigi Buffon's dramatic penalty save against Romania, could already be out of the competition.
The stakes could not be higher, then, especially for Domenech and Italian rival Roberto Donadoni.
Some French journalists I have spoken to believe Domenech's position will become virtually untenable if his team serve up another limp display.
But there is one other very important scenario that could render the fixture meaningless.
Of all the predictions and permutations ahead of the tournament, only the bravest gave Romania a chance of qualification from Group C.
However, having taken a point off both Italy and France and with the prospect of a game against a Dutch side that has already qualified to come, they must now be regarded as serious contenders for the second spot.
And that would make a mockery of those who say tournament football has become predictable and conservative.
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well done, Fletch...
great article superbly composed!
i feel sad to predict that the french are on the slump, starting from the last W.C. final.
it would be great PLUS to modern football to have attack minded teams like the Dutch winning such tournaments as this.
this gives the fans far more value for their hard-earned huge dunds committed on travels and tickets.
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This group is fantastic. The two Holland matches were both marvellous examples of swift counter-attacking play and Italy v Romania this evening was a wonderful, dramatic match. France v Italy now could be a classic with so much riding on it.
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Yah, Dutchies, what a great game. I loved it. I hope for sure that they go on like this with the Romania game.
Also, a great article, Fletcher.
8)
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I am afraid this is not a great game analysis.
Of course with 4:1 win, everyone who scores is a hero, and everyone in the team plays well. Every goal is fantastic if you analyze it because otherwise it wouldn't be goal. What's your special points?
What if Kuyt didn't score first which remained for the first half?
What if van der Sar let in 1 or 2 to end up 1:1 or 1:2 in the first half?
Then the final result could be different.
Without any doubt, the Man of the Match is Dirk Kuyt (who you failed to mention even once in the game analysis), given his precious first goal and tremendous preformance up and down the pitch!
Van der Sar comes the second for safeguarding that important 1:0 lead!
Van Basten's subs strategy is the third to make 3: 1 end of game. We all know Robben and VP are world-class. Nothing unusual for them to score given the right timing. So is Sneijder.
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The events in the group of death are close to unbelievable, in particular with regard to the matches of the Dutch team. Holland made it through the qualification for Euro 2008 with considerable difficulty. Van Basten continued to experiment upto a point where few were left who understood where he was going. The Dutch press was expressing harsh criticism and the public barely had a clue about Van Basten's selection procedures and tactics.
But this tournament shows his vision, persistence and guts are being rewarded abundantly. Even if the team does not succeed in conquering the cup, Van Basten has proved that he is as great a coach as he was a player. Guys like him at times brighten up our tiny, worthless and miserable lives.
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A small note from a very happy Dutch woman: it warms my heart to see how positive the English are about our team. Maybe good to know that in Holland we have the utmost respect for the English as well. When our player go to English teams we feel proud, when they go to Italy or Spain we feel disapointed. I truly believe we play as well as we do because the load of our players had great teachers in England. THANK YOU... and we love you!
ps: who was the best French player? .... i rest my case :)
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Van Basten has clearly proven many of his critics wrong with the results of these two games. What we saw was a team that was hungry for success, that did not simply rest on its laurels when they were leading, with a coach, staff, and fans that are behind them all the way. Go Nederlands!
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Holland have garnered a legion of new fans over the past week with the joie de vivre of their play. Oops, sorry France, didn't mean to rub it in! Regardless of whether they falter from here on out or not (hope not!) they have left their mark on the tournament and made for a shining spectacle that bears emulation by other teams. Nothing could be a more refreshing change from the tournament four years ago when Greece set the tone with their Total Boring brand of defensive tactics. Holland show the way forward alright, and in more ways than one. It's ironic, but Italy and France still can't escape Holland. For either the Azzurri or Les Bleus to go forward from the group, Holland must be obliging enough to hold scrappy Romania to at least a draw. Italy was in the same position four years ago needing Sweden to beat Denmark in the last match in their group, and look what happened...
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What a player Arjen Robben is! I do not know why he is less celebrated than others around not half as capable. He runs like a gazelle; his dribbling is no les than those of Brazilians; and his shooting prowess defies his midfielder tag -- he is as good as any striker.
I think I know why, probably because he does not want to hog the limelight -- a quality common in all troubadours of the game.
Also another point could be is his looks do not resemble with that of pretentious Becks; his hair is thinning as well; and he looks older for his age.
I do not care what the stellar pundits around the world think of him, for me, he is a true genius tailormade for big stage.
Bravado, Robben!
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The two Dutch games have been amongst the best I've seen at international level for years. I bet Clarence Seedorf feels a mug now for walking out of the squad.
I hope they can rest players in the Romania game and maintain impetus for the later stages. It's a very strange situation. The Dutch can lose their last game, still top their group and ensure France and Italy are eliminated. But they wouldn't do that. Would they?
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why so surprised about Rumania standing to qualify - they won their qualifying group, beating and drawing against... the Dutch!
Pim (who is... Dutch and wears orange this weekend)
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I think it's great that after the boredom of 4 years ago we have a few teams who place great emphasis on attacking football again. It's a breath of fresh air.
What's even better is that it is working and 2 of the so called best teams in the world have been beaten heavily.
Rather than having a squad of 'great' players it seems that France were propped up by Zidane for years or that Domenech hasn't really got a clue. Maybe it's both.
I hope the beautiful football continues. Hopefully the french will through and Italy will go out.
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first of all excuses for my English writing i am Dutch!! Just like Nachtzuster i would give you compliments on your comments, you can see where football is comming from!! pure and honest comments you expect from lovers of the game! i watched some other european papers and comments from people and they where not as half as proffesional as yours are, I hope and expact that England will make the first big tournemant, we speak each other than!!
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Rather than having a squad of 'great' players it seems that France were propped up by Zidane for years or that Domenech hasn't really got a clue. Maybe it's both.
________________________________
It must have been Zidane. If it were not for him they would not have been world champions. He was the outstanding player when they won the Euros and they would not even have qualified for the last world cup had he not come out of retirement. He made them shine, look confident, good, took all their penalities, collected all the rubbish balls in the middle and turned them into scoring opportunities.. you name it. France has been a one man team for at least a decade if not more.
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I think that the eulogising that has gone on about the Dutch team is prbably premature. Neither Italy nor France are the teams they once were -France no longer really have anyone that creative in midfield (Ribery alone presents real problems for teams) everything and many of their stars are now well past their best and Italy are lacking a striker of real quality - Toni had many chances in the Romania game but lacked that extra that was needed. Portugal and Spain are I believe stronger contenders to win the tournament
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Another remarkable feature of the Dutch team is how many players score. Before Sneijder's last-minute beauty last night, the six goals Holland had scored in two matches came from six different players.
That fact is testimony to the revival of total football, introduced by Michels in the seventies, continued by Cruijff and others in the eighties, and now taken to the next level by the Van Basten squad.
Being Dutch, I'm naturally delighted. But every football fan must be hoping that the big prize in this tournament goes to a team that has an enthusiastic and positive approach to the game.
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What a load of overkill about the Dutch!
True, they've played exceptional counter-attacking football and they've taken their chances.
But they've hardly been tested against a woeful French team and a - so far, at least - off the pace Italian side.
Two games don't make a tournament winner....
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The Dutch counter-attack team is precise and lethal.
Also I'm surprised no one pointed out that France were playing with 10 men in the second half, Gomis, what did he do and why did Domenech replaced Malouda for him?
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The Midland - how can you call a few admiring comments about the Dutch 'a load of overkill'? No-one is saying their certain to win Euro 08, but everyone must surely agree they've played great football and scored some lovely goals so far. France and Italy aren't suddenly terrible sides - they've been made to look bad by the Dutch, and to a degree by the hugely under-rated Romanians, who may yet go a long way themselves.
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It will be in the Nederlands interest to get rid of France and Italy if they can. I am not sure that they will beat any one of these teams if they were to met again in the latter stages of the championships. Besides, they would be doing the other favourites and Romania a big favour (ironically France and Italy too who need to tidy up big time!).
If I were van Basten (which I'll never be) I would give the upcomming meaningless match to Romania..
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I'm not going to count my chickens just yet. Remember the Argentinians at the last world cup - absolutely stunning for four matches then they appeared afraid of losing the quarter final against Germany rather than winning it. It is the business end of tournaments people remember most and of late they have been boring as hell. I hope people are right about the dutch, I hope we have exciting semis and final, but I doubt it somehow, I've come to expect disappointment from these tournaments.
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This is not Dutch overkill, everyone must admit that the Dutch have played some sublime football. 7 Goals for and 1 against in 2 games containing the last WC finalists is a pretty good achievment.
Also do not think for 1 second that the dutch will roll over against the Romainians, contrary to what people may think, its not in the Dutch's best interest to roll over as they will then loose their momentum.
Living in De Nederlands at this moment is great. Its such a party atmosphere.
Zet em op Nederland.
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The proliferation of left footed players in the Dutch team gives them a great balance. Can't think of many teams that have so many left footed attackers; the French and the Italians have not been able to handle it, what's to say other teams will be able to?
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So far I have not heard any of the pundits draw any comparison between the best teams in the tournament and the Home nations, particularly England.
The technical ability, movement and pace of the best is light years ahead of Englands overpaid players.
Try to think of any English players who would get on the Dutch, Spanish etc bench. ASfter Ferdinand you are struggling.
It rather outs Cappello's facile comments about the next World Cup into context.
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EWONGNL, what if England had qualified and beaten The Netherlands 10-0 in their opening game? What if the referee had not seen a blatent foul in injury time and awarded a penalty to Australia? Sport is full of "what ifs", but you don't win many tournaments that way... just ask the Spanish.
The Dutch have been lethal in taking their chances. You don't get to beat both the World Cup finalists by 3 clear goals by playing badly: one freak result, yes, but two?
My impression was that the French played better than the scoreline suggests, but you can only admire the way that the Dutch destroyed their defence time and time again, while the French goal had to be one of the more comic goals that we'll see in the whole tournament (how often does a striker knock the ball in while apparently falling over it?)
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The two performances by the Dutch have been hugely impressive especially considering that pre-Euro 2008 there was talk of Basten going against the traditional style of Dutch play.
It seems the Euros is made for impressive games involving Holland,remember the game against the Czechs at '04 and against the Yugoslavians at '00 and hopefully that'll continue...
I am slightly worried that they may have peaked too early so it will be interesting to see if they can maintain it into the KO stages.
Only time will tell..
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......not a word about the tireless Dirk Kuyt who hounded and harried for two games before being substituted last night leaving fresh legs to destroy the French, not forgetting the fact he scored the first last night and against the Italians got two fantastic assists (not all his own work admittedly but key nonetheless).
Nice.
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Does anyone remember the incident at the start of the second half when Henry's shot was blocked on the line by Ooijer's arm.
If the penalty had of been given, which it should have been, then at 1-1 (I'm guessing that France would have scored their penalty) it could have been a completely different result, especially with the French running rampant in and around the Dutch's shky defence.
As soon as they face a team that can finish off their chances...Spain for example...then they will struggle to stop conceding 3 or more goals.
Btw...have any of you noticed that Van Nistelrooy's goal against Italy was allowed wrongly (he was at least two yards offside) when Toni's goal was disallowed when he was clearly onside. Luck...I don't think so...I feel a conspiracy theory coming into effect.
To sum up...
I bet anyone that the Dutch have no chance of winning the Euros because they have been destroyed by both Italy and France but (due to some very contencious decisions and a bit of luck) beaten them easily with very good counter-attacking football, with Italy short of Cannavaro and France needing Clichy and Sagna (to of the most solid defenders in the Premiership) and needing a good goalie (Coupet is finished).
Holland's style of football will not be able to break down a defence like the Spanish.
One more thing... would be surprised if the Dutch let the Romanians win becuse that would knock out both France and Italy (who the Dutch do not want to have to meet again in the semi-finals).
Now I feel much better. Glad to ge that lot of my chest.
Also, I know its out of place but, well played Tiger Woods.
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Holland have taken the tournament by storm, they have firstly a good mix of "workers" and "star players" and their workrate is phenomenal, real "teamwork".
Who knows if they can sustain their current form, but as the new England manager Fabio Capello says, "confidence is the key", after the win against Italy the self-belief in the team has grown enormously and this will continue.
As for Italy, I can't believe the reffing of some of their games, they have been done, more than once, you can't win if the ref disallows perfectly good goals.
I hope Holland or Spain do the business myself, as the football they've played to date has been a joy to watch, but as Spain know from experience attractive football doesn't win tournaments, ask the Germans or Greeks.
It may be enough this time though :-)
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Oh no I forgot to add this in.
Does anyone agree with me that Malouda should be concentrating on the ball at corners instead of the greasy Kuyt.
He is too lazy to be playing in such important matches...but for God's sake Domenech don't bring on the neanderthal Gomis, bring on the superb Benzema.
Malouda did one thing, an inventive overhead kick to Henry (who should have scored), but other than that, between him and Gomis they gave more of the ball to the Dutch than to their own team.
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I'm just glad my mates are finally seeing the football i've been telling them about for years. i really hope Oranje win the tournament, and hopefully Marco van Basten will take this kind of football with him to Ajax
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Dankjewel @ 'night sister'
You are right, the amount of English people getting behind the Dutch team is truly astounding.
I think it is down to the fact that the English are such proud football fans and it is genuinely hurtful no to be there. So supporting a team showing so much flair and attacking skill is the next best thing.
The other teams are probably full of envy over hoe the Dutch play but of course their main focus is on their own teams.
C'mon England - get behind the Dutch.
Hup Holland Hup
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HappyGooner -
Football is not about what ifs or hypothetical alternative paths. It is about taking your chances. Holland did just that while France and Italy huffed and puffed and have nothing to show for it.
Again football is about putting the ball in the back of the net more times than your opponents do, simple as that..
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fabulousRedsReds-
actuallt its about putting the ball int the net and it being allowed by the referee.
Hint,Hint
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Great article
Before the tournament when I went to pick a winner (and put a nice bet on) I picked holland. They have a balance to their side which includes solid, if unspectacular defenders, good cover in de jong and engelaar and serious attacking flair. More to the point they can switch between two systems using a narrow 4-5-1 or using a 4-3-3 with Robben and Robin. While Spain have some wonderful players, they might find that the get out-thought by the dutch versatility. As for Portugal....Deco has lit up the tournament and we all know about Ronaldo but they are not good enough and certainly not savvy enough to win the tournament. I expect them to be beaten by Germany with Germany avenging the Croats in the Semis. In the other side...Italy and Spain to have a classic q final with the Spanish edging it in extra time. Holland cruise past sweden and go on to set up another germany-dutch final. A situation that will make me money either way!
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Hello UK,
Thanks 4 being so positive about our dutch team.
It is realy hartwarming 2 know the fans of good footbal of the dutch goes beond only dutch fans.
many greats,
from Holland
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Happygooner
The officials explanation for the van nistelrooy goal was that Panucci was down injured on the far side and had not signalled to the referee. He was playing Ruud onside. It is within the laws of the game (however stupid) and within those laws the goal was legit. Your point about the French penalty is a good one. It wold have changed the game. However, given the balance of the chances and the success rate in concerting those chances the dutch deserved to win. They have now played the two world cup finalists of two years ago and scored seven goals against them...two teams that are lauded for their defensive solidity. Northern Irelan scored three goals against Spain in qualifying wheras Italy haven't conceded three goals in any game since 1987. The idea that because spain beat Russia that they will be too good for Holland is farcical. Puyol can barely move and Marchena is prone to lapses in concetration. Admittedly, the Dutch def is nt spectacular either. Should be a great game between two awesome teams but I expect the dutch to win it
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@26 Criketing_stargazer
Well, you got me wrong. My Whatifs were not suggesting Franch win the Dutch, but to explore who was the best man of the game from Dutch side among all the stars.
Commentators were too busy counting the most beautiful goals and ignored the fact it was Kuyt and vdSar who gave Dutch crucial headstart to win the game. Their contribution sustained Dutch during their most vulnable time and should be the Dutch winning foundation of the match.
Robin, Robben and Sneijder just did their job brilliantly to finish any hope left for France.
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I'm sorry madigaf but could you, after being punched in the head by buffon, put your hand up and signal to the ref that you are injured. Its a bit obvious.
My feelings for this decision are that the law can be interpreted in different ways and I would like to know what the decision would have been if the goal had of been at the other end of the pitch. Taking into account what happened against Romania I severely doubt the referee would have given the goal.
Spain wont win against the Dutch because they beat an over-rated russian team, they will win because they can score when they get the chance (something which France and Italy have failed to do so far).
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madigaf-
I think that Panucci was flattened by his own team mate - so the decision to allow the goal was not stupid at all. It is like you flattening your own golie and scoring an own goal. I don't think that defenders should be allowed to cross the line and play anyone offside under any circumstances, unless of course they are pushed out by a player from the opposing team, and that should result in a free-kick for the defending side..
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Although having seen two nice matches (and they wheren't as perfect as everyone makes them out now...) I'm still left with a feeling we Dutch all know too well... not again playing the best football around and end up with nothing. I cannot count the amount of times we where left with this feeling after yet another great tournament...
Yes we can win it.. we always can. It's about actually doing it this time. If it all works out then there is one special person to thank... vd Sar... yes... going forward we are great, but if he didn't come up with his great saves at the right time we wouldn't have been able to sit back, relax and score some fantastic goals
.. oh.. my favourite 2 seconds in this match was the move from Ruud on the sideline to setup Robben en van Persie for the second... who is this Ronaldo person everyone is talking about ;-)
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It is all about interpretation. If it happens to your team then you interpret in a different way to if it isnt your team. HOWEVER, this rule was made to stop players WALKING, of the pitch to play an opposing player offside. Did Panucci WALK off the pitch?
No
THEREFORE, Ruud was offside.
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I think that Gooner believes that if his side doesn't win it is all down to conspiracies. That Italian penalty: the referee was unsighted and the linesman didn't give it. Was that a conspiracy? Seeing it at normal speed on tv it was not easy to see clearly what had happened in a crowded penalty area and even seeing the slow motion replay (incidentally, from the wrong angle to see clearly what the player did) you had to be uncertain if the player had deliberately intercepted the ball with his arm, or had kept his arm close to his body and been hit by the ball (which would not be a penalty). Many referees would have taken the easy way out and given a penalty for the contact with the arm but, on the replays, it was not quite as clear-cut as you would like to present it. Without a replay from behind the goal you can't really be certain that it was deliberate.
Anyway, back to the more gracious fans. I'm glad to see the Dutch fans on this MB and making their comments. So far your team has done you proud. Keep playing like this and you will be tough to beat.
Seven goals for and only one against, against the two World Cup finalists is sensational in any circumstances. And there were fabulous goals.
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What happens if the Dutch beat Romania 4-1 (a possibility the way they are playing) and Italy and France draw 1-1. All three teams will have identical goals for and against and, of course, their head-to-heads will be the same.
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Cricketing_stargazer
You obviously wernt watching the match on the BBC then, coz they showed a few replays clearly showing Ooijer diving "Supermanesque" into the path of the ball with is arms held out.
Theres a difference between looking and seeing and you obviously look when you dont want to know the truth. Seeing is understanding what you see and you are blinded to the truth.
Watch the replay
Then tell me that it wasnt a penalty
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Good Article. One thing I feel shoud be highlihgted though. Everybody is leaning on the fact that the Dutch have qualified to suggest that Romania have a chance of qualifying. I disagree with that being the reason. Romania won the qualifying group that The Dutch progressed from. In the process drawing with and alos beating the Dutch ... They were always going to make themselves difficult to beat believing they could put themselves in the position to replicate either of their qualification "head-to-head" results in their last game and thereby qualify ..... The fact that the Dutch have qualified makes it MORE likely that Romania will go through, not simply possible.
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Oh and about graciousness...
Congratulations Holland for beating what is put in front of you, thats all you can do.
Its not your fault you get all the decisions.
Its the referees
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HappyGooner
Panucci was pushed off the field by his own team mate. What happens if you trip yourself or your team mate and gift the other team with a goal scoring opportunity which they put away? Should the goal not stand?
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To those of you who have said that I should have mentioned Dirk Kuyt - I very much take your point.
I was sat close to the technical area in Berne close to Marco van Basten and could see him constantly urging Kuyt to push forward, presumably with the intention of limiting Patrice Evra's attacking raids. Kuyt did this with great determination and put on a superbly selfless display for this team.
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No Gooner, I was watching on a similarly neutral tv channel. Not all readers only watch BBC: unfortunate, but true. And you are being a terribly sore loser. The commentators did NOT have the benefit of a replay from behind the goal and really did not make a great deal of the incident.
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OK
I now know that you are all lost cases
I will finish with this though
Firstly- to you fabulousRedsReds
Panucci was injured, theres a difference with that and falling over
Secondly- o omniscient Cricketing_stargazer
I for one, hate the biasness of the BBC, which is one reason I'm glad England didnt qualify
The commentators did not have the benefit of a goal line camera angle either...but from the angle they showed, there was sufficient evidence to prove that it was a penalty...
I watch the BBC because they show the football, I have no loyalties (this may sound shallow but its true)
But thanks for proving my previous point
You look but do not see. You are blinded to the truth.
Now didnt some guy called Jesus say that once
And hes right to
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I must also add this
Im allowed to be a sore loser...
coz im a depressd 15 year old who has GSCEs next week and relies on sport to keep going through such a troublesome and important period in my life
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Gooner
I believe that a penalty ought to have been given against holland. Alan Shearer didn't. His comments were that the ball had hit Ooijer at speed and was trying to get his arms out of the way. Its a good point and makes it a marginal decision. I would have given it but I would not start talking about conspiracies. You're starting to sound like Wenger. Spain probably will take their chances better than France or Italy. I say probably because as good and all as Villa and Torres have been this season Villa has scored less than Ribery and Torres less than Toni. They are not poor players. However, Italy and France are def more solid at the back than Spain. If Holland can stick seven past two of the best defensive teams in the world they will be able to open spain up. As I said before should be a great game full of goals but I expect the dutch. This has been the best international tournament for a long time. Stop moaning about referees and conspiracies and enjoy it
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Just a last question to HappyGooner.
Lets say Panucci was not injured and on side. Would he have had the ability of mind to set van Nistelrooij off side?
The answer is off course that nobody knows (even YOU don't).
So by getting injured by his own goalkeeper Italy would have had an advantage in YOUR way of explaining this rule. That would certainly be not the goal of the Uefa to benefit the defending team.
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HappyGooner -
Whether Panucci was injured or not does not change the rules. Had Buffon flattened a Dutch player like he did flatten his team mate the ref would have given a pen straight away. The ref was right and there was no offside. The goal did correctly stand. I felt sorry for Italy but the ref did a great job. For once there was a ref who did what his book tells him instead of thinking 'poor team, they should not lose this way, I'll turn a blind eye to that one - the poor chap s injured!'
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Lets say he was injured and off the pitch, Johan14, then Van Nistelrooy would have been offside (which he himself thought he was, any queries watch the replay)
WAIT A MINUTE that DID happen
therefore
he WAS offside
THE END
P.s
I love a happy ending
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fabulousRedsReds
In you own words
the game is not about hypothetical ifs
Buffon injured Panucci
FACT
Panucci was injured, off the pitch, therefore inactive
FACT
So... Ruud was OFFSIDE
FACT
stop arguing you're only embarrassing yourself
all you are going to do is dig yourself a massive hole which yo cant get yourself out of by being hipocritical
WAIT... you just did
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The Dutch players know they performed extremely well, better then they expected themselves.
As His Royal Footballness (Johan Cruiff) predicts Van Basten will probably have some reserves playing the match against Romania, but that does not mean a weaker team will be on the pitch.
I think those reserves would like to show Van Basten and the world they are just as good as the first 11. Romania beated The Netherlands during qualification, so I doubt The Netherlands want to loose again.
There's still some realism amongst the Dutch: we have qualified for the KO phase, but still fear the other teams (Portugal, Czech Republic). We have not won the tournament (yet), but believe me we are having a great time......
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HappyGooner,
You might be
a. frustrated not to be right or
b. you are just stubborn or
c. you just didn't get my point.
Could you answer this question?
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And relaxxxxxxxx.....
Blimey Fletch, why does is only ever seem to kick-off on your blogs?!!!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
HappyGooner
The official rule is the referee must allow a player to leave and enter the pitch. Panucci left the pitch without the referee's permission, so even being injured he was still active in the game and therefore Van Nistelrooy wasn't offside.
And as His Royal Footballness said on Dutch televios: "...even when it was off-side, who cares, the goal counts..."
So if it's your opinion it was offside, let it be offside, but who cares.....I'm not
Why is this so important for you, btw????
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Johan14
Same question??????????????
Btw Im frustrated that it always happens to the team I happen to be supporting
(THAT IS ACTUALLY THE TRUTH)
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And for those who will answer c.
The reason why the Uefa introduced this (for obviously a lot of people stupid) rule is that it does not make any sense if Panucci would have been off pitch or on pitch and injured or not injured. THE ATTACKING TEAM MAY NOT BE DISADVANTAGED IN ANY WAY SIMPLY BECAUSE OF BAD LUCK BY THE DEFENDING TEAM (i.e. the fact that Panucci was injured by Buffon).
Clear?
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Being Dutch, some language errors
..who cares....I'm not... should be ...who cares ....I don't
and televisios should be television
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Fouteman
i indirectly (no pun intended) answered your question in my previous comment
FACT
We CANT change past events but we CAN prevent them reoccuring in the future
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Okay, Gooner.
No player is INACTIVE unless they are send off the pitch by the REFEREE to receive treatment.
Or of course, when they have been send off with a red card.
Whether Panucci was injured, yes or no, I don't know. THE FACT is that he WASN'T send of to receive treatment outside off the pitch.
So, basically, he was still ACTIVE.
Maybe the rule is silly, I think it is, but don't say shit that he was INJURED and off the pitch and therefore INACTIVE.
Basically you're saying someone is inactive when he's injured and/or off the pitch, which is ridiculous =)
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Here is another one of those ifs (just for you fabulousRedsReds)
What do you think would have happened if the sam ething had of happened at the other end of the football pitch???
THE ATTACKING TEAM WAS NOT DISADVANTAGED...THE ITALIAN PLAYERS STEPPED FORWARD PLAYING RUUD OFFSIDE...THEREFORE THEY LOST THEADVANTAGE AS THEIR ACTIONS HAD NO EFFECT
please feel free to answer the question though
i feel intrigued as to what answers u come up with
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please HappyGooner, give the dutch some room to breath.... they did not have all the luck before...
they should have won 2 world cups and if you look at the all time ranking they are the second best country ever to content on the european championships
(just behnd germany which have won a few matches more) And yet the only won one cup..
each year since their last win 1988 they have been in the semi's or quarters.. losing by penalies or someting...
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A last remark to Gooner.
You r supporting Italy?
Well, there's still enough hope. Holland won't lose against Romania, so it's just up to Italy beating the French.
By the way, I like this Italian team as well....
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btw is'nt it nice to see the boring French and italy teams being puniched on their boring defensive play
A thrilling 8 goals in the last 2 matches... its all about a nice championship and they are giving us a reason to watch it on tv
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PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFf
The ATTACKING TEAM WOULD HAVE BEEN DISADVANTAGED IF PANUCCI ACCORDING TO YOUR VIEW WAS SUPPOSED TO BE INACTIVE BECAUSE HE WAS OFF PITCH/INJURED. and that's why this rule exists.
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HappyGooner
Football is a game of rules, many of them. Some refs follow the rules some don't. Believe me, I have seen a ref produce 3 yellows to the same player! The ref the other night was brilliant. Wish we could have more of the same. If situations could be explained and contested, 95% of penalties and red cards would have perfectly 'logical' explanations. 'I was carrying an injury and could not keep up with the pace of the striker so I clipped him. By the way I was injured by my own team mate earlier on when we run into one another..' - would be one example of an explanation to avoid a penalty.
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also who tells me he didn't do it deliberately..
he seemed fine 2 minutes later so he wasn't that injured.
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Why does everyone keep ranting about the penalty that should have been given to France?
Why don´t they mention the fact that France´s Makelele should have had a red card?
If you want justice done, then you should also mention that. What wuld have been the outcome then?
Greetz from A´dam
(Thanks to all the Brits wearing Orange over here, who are supporting us. It was fun last night!)
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alex128 what the hell have u been watching for the past decade
France and Italy defensive
So the dutch dont play counter attacking football (which is all about DEFENDING and then trying to score when you get the opportunity)
In the second half of the match last night
holland scored three goals however they spent about 80% of the tim ein their own half
In the match against italy the dutch scored two goals seconds after alost conceding
Dont talk about France and itlay being defensive
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the dutch have always played way more offensive then the french or the italians...
thats just a fact.. I hope they win the tournament ... perhaps t will inspire othe teams to start playing more offensive
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But the probably won't get past the semi's like always... there style of playing never got them what they desirved..
like i said.. second best ... but only one euro cup
And two horrible world cup finals :(
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To suggest that if the penalty was awarded for France and they scored the game would have changed maybe in favour of the French is just hogwash. What happened immediately after Henry scored? In the game against Italy, what happened immediately after Italy threatened and failed to score?
The Dutch have so many goals and can turn it on whenever needed so I don't believe in the ifs as propagated by some people on here. France and Italy are great sides but they have met a surprisingly well balanced dutch team which is frankly the team to beat.
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Big comliments to and great admiration for
the Holland team from Germany!
They have playfully demonstrated how wonderful football can be.
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Fantastic by holland... but I have a question...
Do Holland go out and beat Romania knowing that if they do this then Romania will go out and depending on the france italy scores one of them will qualify
or
Do they "rest" a few players and maybe hope Romania draw which will inevitably put Italy and France out of the Competition??
thoughts please?
ps Sneijder for player of the competition
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HUP HOLLAND HUP
I am cloggie living in London and have been very pleased and proud of all the support Oranje is getting from friends and colleagues! Hope we can keep it up and annulling that dreadful performance of boring football by Greece, forever to be forgotten.
Football is all about scoring goals, beautiful passes, team spirit and attacking (aanvalluh!). It's not about analysing every single micro second after the game and coming up with ifs and whys the other team should have won or what would have happenend if France of Italy had scored that goal. They didn't, as easy as that.
Hopefully we can move away on this blog from offside/onside (it wasn't even against France!) and celebrate some amazing football with deserved winners on both occasions.
For anyone to suggest that Holland weren't under pressure in both games would be wrong. However, which team wouldn't be being up against the finalists of the last two world cups. Of course France was going to come and put pressure on the dutch defense. They were down 1-0 and put 0-0 on the boards against Romania... The pressure on the dutch team only illustrates what brilliant football and goals they scored against two top nations.
Who's next?! Sweden, Russia (I hope not!) or maybe even Spain if they don't win their group. Anything seems to be possible this tournament after Croatia beating favoured Germany...
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Great by Holland thusfar, but some people don't half have some short memories.
They did not possess a great deal of flair in qualifying or indeed in the 2006 WC. Look at the stats, they only beat Luxembourg who have only ever won a few competitive games in their history 1-0 on both occasions.
They only scored 14 goals in 12 qualifying games. Hardly great attacking football, was it?
vs Romania, the team everyone seemed to have written off before the tournament as a weak side and a one trick pony, they were outplayed at home and lost 1-0 in Bucharest.
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Sorry, that should be 16 goals in 12 qualifiers but the point still stands.
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by happygooner
"Btw...have any of you noticed that Van Nistelrooy's goal against Italy was allowed wrongly (he was at least two yards offside) when Toni's goal was disallowed when he was clearly onside. Luck...I don't think so...I feel a conspiracy theory coming into effect."
I didnt see the Toni one, but RVN's goal was 100% legit. Yes it looked like was offside, but there still was a Italian player behind the goal, making it a proper goal. I thought it was offside too, but then saw the footage from another angle and watched the head refferee explaining the official rules after the match.
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MrPop. I think your point is fair to make. It was a long hard slog for the dutch team to make it through qualification, without any impressive football as Ruud v Nistelrooy also admitted.
The margins in international football have become a lot tighter though. With even the smallest nations capable of fielding a half decent team, especially when they focus on defending for 90 minutes. Most teams in the dutch qualifying group played like that, focused on closing the dutch team down with 10 field players. Even a world class player will find it difficult to weave his way through 10 defenders.
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Rage_of_reason summarized it well in his comment nr 6: Van Basten is doing amazing things with an amazing team so far. That makes football a great game to watch
While some people here are still debating the first goal of the Dutch, by now after 2 games there have been 7 goals already. The Dutch games were not boring either.
What-if-then-else scenarios are not relevant. Example: if there wouldn't have been a war in Yugoslavia, the Danish would have never become European cup winners. But fact is: there was a war and something amazing happened with the Danish team.
What is important to me as football fan is that we see some more of these exciting games. Portugal, Spain and Holland are showing the exciting games so far. So let such kind of teams reach the final please
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having come from a country with practically no football teams, i've always wondered what the big fuss about football was all about, until i watched this year's EK, particularly the dutch matches. please, guys, stop arguing, get your beers, and let's all enjoy this exciting game i've just discovered!
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oops that's EC for European Cup
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I love watching the Dutch play, but they have also been very lucky ! The dutch are very dodgey at the back ... Khalid the Chelsea Reject and Van Bronkhurst are not that good ! I would love to see them win the tournament, but I am sorry, they will be exposed and beaten soon.
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AlfieSpursReturns.... bring a team on that can outscore the Dutch... if the opposition scores 3... they will score 4.... and about the ones you name... Van Bronkhorst played world class against Italy (against the top rated Toni) and Khalid had Ribery in his pocked.. not to mention Ooijer and the master himself vd Sar who is part of the back you call dodgy. The one player who's good enough to outplay everyone is Ronaldo and we all know how he playes on big occasions... he doesn't show up so...
and for the qualification matches... we played another system then which was too simple to defend against... that's why we didn't score too many goals... but that doesn't seem to be a problem now does it...
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If I was van Basten, and believe me I'm not, I think I would let Romania score once early in the game. That would create the perfect circumstances to train the Dutch team. The Romanians will then go in total defence. Then the team can figure out how to win a game when they are in disadvantage.
If we win (Dutchy here), then we deserve to win. If Romania can keep the 1-0, the deserve to go through....
.. but like I said.. I'm no van Basten and to be honnest, I don't think van Basten can get van de Sar to let one through... hahaha
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Well, being Dutch i'am always a bit carefull about the national 11.
However, in previous posts ive seen so many IFS....that I feel a need to respond on that.
In Holland we have a saying.
And it goes especially for football:
If "If" comes, is having/getting to late....
So, "if" France had there penalty, what would have happend "if" van de Sar would have stopped it?
Facts and results..Thats what count in football.
"If" facts and results came second, France would have won with 6-0 of Holland, just like Italy would have won with 5-0.
And saying that, Holland would not be in the pool of dead, it probably would have been England (Pity that anyway)
Gosh, If I were rich......
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As a follower of a Championship team which played some truly horrific football last season, I was looking forward to taking some time off from football entirely over the summer...
Then the Netherlands came along and made me fall in love with it all over again!
Yeah, so they've had a few breaks - who hasn't? But any team who can rip apart a decent team like Italy or France by turning defence into such wonderful attacking in one moment has got my support. And they're also the one team who has got the non-football fans of my acquaintance really excited - I raise my glass of Hoegaarden to you!
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Gooner, how many reasons do you need to be happy that England didn't qualify?
I think it's a damn shame that none of the UK-ers are represented in this tournament.
As for the Dutch, the numbers speak for themselves, nuf said.
Go Holland!
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I too asmany other Dutch, am very delighted with the English backing our squad...
The " why is that" is not so hard to answer I feel. There is a strong connection between our little country and your leagues as all those Dutch play the English leagues...
Bergkamp has been an arsenal star for so many years, feeling great in your country. As are many others, in return you give us your wonderful atmosphere and spirit during your competition and cup-leagues, widely watched overhere...
Further on there is the connection that both the English and the Dutch aren't that good in actually winning the big tournaments, pity but true. Despite showing great identifiable football....
It's a great pity you aren"t there and something to think about...how can it be that 2 great English teams are playing the ch.league final and the England squad is far behind that?
Well, ofcourse everything is already being discussed in your country 'bout that..
In the end I just hope that Holland will reach far this time, playing the same football as they actually do now.
Same time I fear that in the end the germans will win the cup once more....brrrrrr...
cheers.
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sorry to go back to the VN goal against Italy. But if the rule was changed would it apply to a player running down the wing? If he takes a man on and has to leave the pitch to get round him ie knocking the ball one way and going round the other, he would be out of the game would he not? I think the rule is right you cant leave without the refs permission. if you do you are active
And congratulations to Holland on an outstanding start the most exciting team to watch at the moment. Torres and Villa are playing great together but the dutch are phenomenal. Lets hope you go all the way.
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You an Italy fan Happygooner? Remermber how they beat Australia at the last WC? Scandalous penalty. Should never have been given. Against Australia for God's sake. You want to talk conspiracy there maybe? Materazzi should have been banned from the pitch for life a long time ago. He's not a player, he's a mafioso.
Personally i always want the Italians to lose, no matter who they play against, no matter at what sport. That is because they just don't grasp the essence of sports, which is that the best (or occasionally the luckiest) wins. For an Italian the purpose of any sport is that the talian wins, no matter how. During a track and field WC some time ago, they didn't hesitate to add a coluple of inches to their longjumper's jump to get him a medal. Fortunatley they did get found out, but only after the medals ceremony. Thuis has been well documented. Read up a bit about how they won their first world cup. That's Italian football for you.
I watched a boxing match on Euriopsort once where a British fighter had to fight an Italian for the European title. The Brit knocked the guy out, but I swear by God that they tried to get a draw out of it on some technicality for at least 30 minutes. Italians on the football pitch are not te be admired, but detested. They seem to prefer the stab in the back to open confrontation anytime. Bunch of cheaters. Hate them.
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