Think before you carve
Can I apologise right now if the content of this blog dampens your Christmas spirit? It is about something many of us believe we should do, but very few of us actually get round to doing.
It was certainly the hardest thing I did during my "year of living ethically" for the BBC.
But Adolf Hitler managed it and so did Linda McCartney. Indeed, the government's former chief economist says we should all do it.
Are you there yet?
Yes, I am talking about giving up meat. Or, in my case, giving up all animal products.
But I should warn you we started our exploration of the ethics of what we eat with a lustrous Norfolk Black turkey chick we named Ned.
We watched him grow into a magnificent one-and-a-half stone stag... and then came Christmas.
Viewers with a sentimental nature should NOT watch this film.
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I said at the time that I regretted not killing Ned.
"An ethical man should be able to stomach dispatching his own supper or should decline to dine upon it, shouldn't he?" I wrote.
And I am sure lots of us carnivores would be a lot less keen on our mixed grills if we had to look all the animals that go into them in the eye before they were served up on our plates.
But this blog isn't about sending you on a vegan guilt-trip - though if that's what you want, you can learn more about the mechanics of turkey slaughter here.
Neither is this blog about the bizarre animal ingredients I discovered might be lurking in even the most innocent-seeming foods - bread anyone?
It is also not about the incredible health benefits I experienced from my brief flirtation with ethical eating - I shed 2kg in 31 days and saw my cholesterol level plummet from 5.6 mmol/L (rather high) to just 3.4 mmol/L (very low for a man of my age).
Nor is it about how the food we eat is destroying the planet. Everyone knows that now - though, if you will allow me a little boast - we in the Ethical Man team pretty much got their first.
So what is this blog about?
It is about another aspect of the food we eat - the threat of an impending food crisis.
There was a hint of what could be to come back in 2007-8 when world food prices soared leading to food riots around the world.
Well, don't imagine that the worldwide depression has got us off the hook. Food prices have risen dramatically this year even as economic activity has fallen.
According to the UN Food and Agriculture Organisation (FAO) a billion people on earth will go hungry this year - one in six of the world's population. That's a thought that will haunt you as you sit down to enjoy your Christmas dinner isn't it?
But, lets be clear about this, there is no shortage of food in the world. Agricultural output is pretty near its historic high. So why are so many people going hungry?
The problem is that, increasingly, we don't actually eat the food we grow. Some is converted into bio-fuels - and rising oil prices makes that more profitable - but even more is used to fatten up the animals so many of us eat.
There has been a huge increase in meat consumption around the world in recent years. That trend should be a cause for celebration because it reflects that fact that people in developing countries are getting significantly richer. One of the first things people do when their income rises is to buy themselves some meat.
The problem is, these trends - coupled with population growth (which I will be discussing next week) - mean there is unprecedented pressure on food supplies.
The FAO estimates that by 2050 the amount of food available in developing countries will need to double - which is the equivalent of a 70% increase in food production.
We would need a lot less if people stopped eating meat because it would require so much less land.
It is yet another powerful argument for changing our diet. So the question is: how can we get people to change what they eat?
We can try persuasion, working through some of the arguments, as I have here. But don't underestimate how difficult it is to change people's behaviour on this.
If you want a measure of just how tough a problem this is to crack, look no further than me.
I know the arguments pretty well (I hope you will agree) and I've experienced the health benefits first hand. But I will still be sitting down to a turkey dinner come Christmas.
So perhaps some gentle coercion might therefore be more effective. There is already a lobby for "fat taxes" - higher taxes on fattening foods. It is a short step from there to taxing foods that have an adverse impact on the environment.
But would any politicians have the courage to impose a tax on meat? They are reluctant enough to impose taxes on other, more directly polluting, behaviours.
There may be other ways - please use the comment box below to send in any ideas you have - but, in the meantime, I have two suggestions for determined meat eaters who want to reduce the environmental impact of their food.
First off, eat less meat - that's something my family is doing (though not this Friday).
The second is even more straightforward, actually eat the stuff you buy!
In developed countries a quarter of all the food that is produced goes uneaten, most of it no doubt growing mould at the bottom of all our fridges.
So here's a festive challenge: I want you to craft that limp carrot, half-eaten packet of cheese and the remains last night's pizza into a delicious Christmas spread. It has to be possible to rustle up something palatable... doesn't it?
I'm Justin Rowlatt and I am the BBC's Ethical Man. My family and I spent a year trying to cut our carbon emissions and reporting on the exercise for 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~48~RS~)
Comments
It'll be difficult to cut out meat altogether so simply eat animals which are treated well rather than subject to the horrendous conditions of most - most farm animals are basically tortured before being killed. That will mean cutting out meat from most restaurants and shop-bought sandwiches and the like but you will be able to eat some delicious meat at home and that should be enough to answer those carnivore urges.
I never knew that meat-eating was responsible for 20 per cent of CO2 emissions. That's another reason for doing so.
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Congratulations of a year of living ethically but please don't give credence to the myth that Hitler was a vegetarian. He ate plenty of animal-sourced food. He was a vegetarian of the "I only eat chicken and fish variety". He liked his sausages, ham and caviar by all accounts. Not only that but he had a thing for leather clothing and accessories too.
Good luck for next year.
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I agree, we should eat what we buy. Meat can be replaced with Quorn, tastes just like chicken, lol
Water however, is more important, vast pollytunnels growning crops that should be grown here. We should not demand seasonal foods all year round.
Transporting food half way around the world to support a, "Buy one get one free" , is not right.
If the industry would come clean and label corectly Food sourced and grown in the UK, we could vote with our wallets.
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When I found myself apologising, in my thoughts, to the animal on my plate which had once been alive, I realised that it was time to embrace vegetarianism. I know it doesn't suit everyone's palate ( my husband is a meat-eater) but it suits me and has for the past 5 years. I don't miss meat and have a varied diet. Each to his own, but food waste is not such a big problem in our household now.
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I don't think the problem is meat consumption (which in my view a human right), It's the people who decide to have more than 2 children.
If the world wasn't overpopulated we could all eat meat.
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I'm with you on the 'use what you buy' concept, though I do this for financial rather than ethical reasons. My mum always used to make soups and stews out of leftovers, and I've extended this to include pasta sauces (ham, bacon, chicken - anything will do). I've also been selective about the meat I buy - buying independent, UK-source brands, local where possible.
But I can't imagine eating less meat - the militant, Peta-supporting vegetarian brigade have proved to be counterproductive. They've annoyed me to the extent that I want to eat meat, just to spite them!
And the UK is an easier country to be a vegetarian in than many - complaints of vegetarians taking holidays in countries which regard their diet as somewhat 'freakish' are common. I have, of course, lost all sympathy - especially when they try and inflict their self-imposed restrictions on others by demanding to pick where everyone eats!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I am willing to cut down on my meat consumption right up to the point that someone suggests Quorn is a suitable replacement. I tried that and got a week of (not going to describe it here...) for my trouble. Quorn doesn't taste like meat any more than plain yoghurt adequately replaces ice cream.
I will reduce my meat intake by 1/7, and not eat any on Thursdays. (But I *won't* be replacing it with Quorn, as I need to not spend the day in -a certain room-).
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A report published just last week by the Sustainable Development Commission, the government’s independent advisory body on sustainability, highlighted three areas of action for improving diet and saving the planet at the same time. These are: cutting the consumption of meat and dairy products, cutting the consumption of processed foods, especially fatty, sugary ones and stimulant drinks and finally, reducing waste. These are eminently sensible recommendations and tally with Ethical Man's own experience. There is a big difference between extensively reared animals, which are grass fed on land which arguably cannot be used for any other purpose, and intensively reared animals, which are grain fed , which is both fossil fuel intensive and preventing better use of agricultural land. Up to 60 million buffalo roamed the plains of North America in the past, yet these could be said to have been carbon neutral. The damage is caused by releasing carbon from fossil fuel or by removing carbon sinks (forests, etc). As with all these topics, the devil is in the detail.
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Again the title is the opposite of the truth.
Turkey produces food more efficiently than Beef or Pork, so if we all ate more turkey and less beef and pork, there would be more food available.
What would really help, is if synthetic meat could be made at a close to 1 to 1 input to output ratio. Most of us wouldn't care if or hot-dogs, hamburgers or even stir-frys were made with synthetic meat. Turn up your nose if you want, but it will be easier to sell than vegan-ism.
Nice tip at the end though. With food getting more and more expensive, it makes good financial sense, to never waste the food you have by not eating it.
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As i was raised in the country and grew up with shooting fishing and hunting i would have no qualms whatsoever in dispatching my own dinner.
When it comes to the environmental consequences of meat consumption this is being argued in a similar way to the puratanical 'reduce your carbon footprint' people, intentions may be good but it misses the point entirely.
Whats the point of reducing meat consumption/reducing your carbon footprint when you are merely delaying the inevitable?
We need to stop using carbon 100% to solve the problem ergo we need to find a solution and we need to stop increasing world population and demand for food ergo we need to find a solution.
All this 'ethical man' stuff is a red herring. We need investment in technology to SOLVE the problem not merely put it off.
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Considering it needs something like 17 times the amount of energy to produce 1 unit of red meat versus 1 unit of wheat/corn/rice, I don't mind if the animal slaughtering, meat-eaters carry on. When we run out of fuel for the power stations one day, we can put them all on exercise bikes hooked up to the national grid to power up the nation!
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To say quorn does not taste like meat.Exactly it is the texture that is important.My children cooked all thier friend quorn dishes and they all thought they had eaten chicken.some people have to be flesh eaters ie alaska,russia etc yet when we have choice to be violent to animals surely some kind of human decency should say no. We butcher animals and butcher each other.What would it take for this madness to stop?
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I personally understand the ethical and financial issues concerning meat production as my parents used to own a poultry farm and I used to work on it. And I understand the potential health benefits of a vegan diet - I have tried it and it really helps, but only to a certain extent. I need to be able to use my body for hard manual labour and hence I need to have an adequate intake of protein to sustain my strength. But I also admit to having eaten meat purely for pleasure rather than the benefit and have resolved to change my ways by eating a small amount of meat only once a day except Fridays which is when I go all-vegetarian. Basically all I am saying is that in these times of world hunger, poverty and financial crises around the world, we all need to conserve resources and not splurge on anything including food. As meat-products continue to sore in price, those who aren't concerned with the ethical issues should be concerned with the financial ones.
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Ledders: "I don't think the problem is meat consumption (which in my view a human right), It's the people who decide to have more than 2 children. If the world wasn't overpopulated we could all eat meat."
Well, some people might also say that it's their right to have 2 children and if people didn't eat so much meat then that would be OK.
Personally I don't think ANYONE has a right to meat consumption or to two children and that attitude is on a collision course with the reality of where we are right now. I doubt that the International Declaration of Human Rights champions either or those two lines of thinking. How about your obligation to leave the world of the future a better place than when you arrived in it?
I gave up eating meat in 1985 and fish in 1987 after reading the Gaia Atlas of Planet Management, the chapters on food presented me with no alternative. I changed my diet, which up until then I'd never given a second's thought to because a) The idea of that much suffering being inflicted on sentient creatures so that I could have cheap meat was too awful to support and b) The sheer wastefulness of the world's grain being converted to flesh at a ratio of about 10:1 just seemed insane. Both of these two reasons are just as strong for me today.
I'd urge you to read that book - it's remarkably prescient and still just as relevant as it was in 1985. Also, have a read of the chapter on meat in the book 'Fast Food Nation'. I tried reading it and found it so harrowing that I just sobbed and had to put the book down. Most meat is NOT produced by the humane killing of a creature that has enjoyed a free-range but (obviously not) full life in a healthy environment. Oh no. Not at all.
I love my food and I've never missed meat or fish one day since becoming vegetarian. I don't think I'll ever be vegan though I realise the ethical implications of the dairy industry too. But I've cut my dairy and egg consumption dramatically since 1985 and at my total health check last year my GP told me that my overall score was excellent for my age. I walk and cycle which helps but as we can see with the look at obesity rates and general use of the NHS, we must take responsibility for our own body.
Vegetarianism is part of how I try to relate to the world I'd like to see and am trying to create - it's not just a 'diet' subject to some fashion. It's rooted in who I am now.
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Humans are supposed to eat meat, and for that reason, and the fact that many essential nutrients can only be found in meat and meat products, I am opposed to vegetarianism and veganism. It may seem harsh but you don't see other animals, except pandas who are supposed to be carniverous and have to eat all day, not eating something because it's unethical. Another reason why I can't cut out meat is that due to medical reasons I have to follow a low fat low fibre diet, I buy good quality meat dispite being a student because I can eat very little else and everything I buy gets eaten. I buy packs of meat and freeze it, I make batches of sauce and freeze it, this way I don't waste anything except the occasional loaf of bread that goes mouldy before I have chance to seperate it out and put it in the freezer.
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In the past century the human population of this planet has increased enormously owing to the eradication or control of many life threatening diseases and man's obsession with living longer, multiplying and saving countless millions around the planet threatened by starvation etc. As agent Smith pointed out:
"I’d like to share a revelation that I’ve had, during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that you aren’t actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with its surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply, and multiply until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet..."
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'please use the comment box below to send in any ideas you have'
The BBC has wasted an awful lot of our money on you. Sound nutritional advice is absolutely fine but we don't need you and the silly things you get up to - its an insult to hypocrisy to send you all round America on our money and then tell us to eat what we buy.
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One thing people often miss when talking about how much more efficient growing crop is compared to rearing animals is that there are large areas of the world that are unsuitable for commercial farming. Areas where wild grazing animals can do just fine.
So by not eating these delicious grazing animals, who are ethically eating grass on uneven, hilly land that would be impractical to farm (and thus wasted otherwise) you are squandering natural resources and acting in an unethical manner.
If you want to protest against battery farming, feeding the animals large amounts of crop that could have otherwise been used to feed people, using up farmable land then you may have a point. However meat CAN be produced in an ethical way. In fact, to avoid meat entirely is unethical.
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"I am talking about giving up meat. Or, in my case, giving up all animal products."
Yes, let us give up all meat and all animal products. Halelujah! However let us not give up the idea that eating animal meat gave us the brains we have today, lest we regress into bovines and become subject to the magnanimity of other, and currently lesser, meat-eating animals.
HTH
PS: If you really do decide to give up all animal products, eat lots of jelly.
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How can you give up all animal products and eat lots of jelly? Jelly is made from gelatin which is made from the boiled bones, skins and tendons of animals.
Unless you specify using agar-agar :-)
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"the Ethical Man team pretty much got their first."
Dear oh dear. "...got there first" surely?
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John. It isn't just "wild grazing animals". Lage areas of upland Britain are unsuitable for growing crops but can sustain a large population of sheep. And those sheep are not subject to the indignity of intensive rearing in the way that pigs and poultry often are. Mutton might not be very fashionable these days but it is the most ethical of meats.
And if we ent back to making clothing from wool instead of synthetics we would eek out our oil reserves that little bit more.
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A far simpler improvement is possible: ban bottled water.
Why are millions of tons of water being transported around the world, never mind the plastics bottles?
Madness.
I recall that a group of expert tasters were invited to try 10 different waters in (obviously) unmarked bottles and to rank them. This they did, London tap water came second.
And no, I will not give up meat: I was designed to eat meat and will continue to do so.
At least I haven't made any babies...
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I say save turkeys the embarrassment of trying to hide at christmas time...eat them all year round....and obviously if we don't eat meat especially beef...who is going to tell the bull at the sperm bank he is out of a job ??
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I sympathise with the Blogs author but I have raised 3 turkey's in my back yar..they have had plenty of exercise fresh food and water and I feel they have been kept in an ethical way having freedom to do what turkey's do naturally.
Every year I have a project and this year's project is to produce everything on the xmas dinner my self.
I am not looking forward to preparing the birds but I am an omnivore and I am prepared to go through the whole process myself.
During the last World war many people would have had no qualms about growing live stock for food and i think more people should do as I have done so that they know what is involved in food production.
Merry christmas to all irrepective of their faith and beliefs..
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We have been eating meat since time began. We are designed to be this way. Not eating meat is against your natural instincts. This doesn't give man the right to be cruel but it does give man the right to eat. And what about a balanced diet?
For all veg-warriors' good intentions, they fail to see that it is a natural process. Only thing that seems unnatural is how we do it, us humans being clever enough to 'farm' and domesticate our livestock making the whole process relatively easy.
So this Christmas, I shall be tucking into a festive feast with all the trimmings, just like my ancestors before me have done, and thank God for providing such a bounty.
Merry Christmas and praying your "limp carrot, half-eaten packet of cheese and the remains last night's pizza" special doesn't need the attention of an ambulance.
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Clearly, the answer is heavy investment in artificial (in vitro/cultured) meat. Even PETA won't argue with that one.
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Eating meat is inherently cruel but is a necessary part of life in the natural world.
In the past half-century, industrialised societies have developed many palatable and healthy alternatives to meat, from Kesp (spun vegetable protein) to Quorn and everything between. The widespread availability of these meat substitiutes means that meat is simply unnecessary in our modern diet.
I view unnecessary cruelty as immoral and so, apart from a brief period of experimental carnivory in the 1980s, I have been vegetarian since 1975. To be clear, I have always eaten fish but not meat.
Most importantly, avoiding meat is a positive choice rather than a sacrifice. As Donald Rennie says above, most people don't care if their hot dogs and stir-fries are made with synthetic meat. We occasionally host parties for children and adults: we offer typical party food - sausage rolls, cocktail sausages, etc. - and our guests either don't notice that they are eating no meat or are happy to find that fun finger food doesn't have to mean meat.
The benefits of eating less (or no) meat continue to mount up:
Avoid the unnecessary cruelty of intensive animal farming and slaughter.
Feed the world's people instead of big businesses' livestock.
Reduce the greenhouse gas emissions from animal husbandry and growing feedstocks.
Keep the rainforests.
Eat a low cholesterol, high fibre diet.
Gain additional health benefits from regular consumption of soya and other vegetable proteins.
Less food waste.
I could go on ...
John Mason notes that wild, grazing animals live on land and vegetation that cannot be farmed. I agree that this can be a sustainable use of natural resources, like responsibly-farmed or sustainably-caught fish. However, he is wrong to suggest that my choice not to eat their meat is unethical!
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Various contributors seem to think that we must eat meat because it contains essential nutrients and that we are 'designed' to eat it. Neither of these are correct (although they are handy excuses for anybody that is too conservative to consider changing their lifestyle).
The idea that you 'need' meat is incorrect. You can get all the nutrients you need from a vegetarian diet (in fact it is healthier). This has been known for a long time. And for the record: no, I'm not a vegetarian - but I don't delude myself that meat-eating is 'better'.
The argument that human beings 'must' eat meat because we are designed to do so falls down on two levels:
1, it isn't true - our bodies aren't very good at dealing with meat at all; our bodily 'design', whether you are talking about teeth or digestion has very few concessions to carnivoral activity. This is hardly surprising when you consider that for the vast majority of our evolutionary journey we have consumed very little meat.
2, even if it were true, it is irrelevant. Ethics is about CHOOSING a course of action, not doing something because you think you 'have to' or that you were 'designed to'. They tried the 'I had no choice' defence at Nuremberg, and it didn't go down too well.
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Are we forgetting people are meat? What if we introduce some kind of donor card? 'Liver for transplant, kidneys for pies'. Surely this would help.
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If animals and birds didn't want to be eaten they should have tried harder as a species to get to the top of the food chain. And thats what it is, a food chain. This is like asking sharks not to eat fish.
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Humans are omnivores & we need animal products end of. The biggest issue is overpopulation that affects everyone of us, no one will grasp the nettle & do something about it. It is causing untold misery around the globe already. Something should be done now before it's to late. Copenhagen is a money grabbing front - people cause emissions & pollution. Less people less emissions & polution it doesn't get any simpler than that I'm afraid. Everybody limit yourselves to 1 - 2 children and save humanity. The planet is fine & has suffered worse calamitys than humanity it will soon recover from us!
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We do not need to eat meat to still enjoy a variety of lovely foods, but this argument comes down to the same one that will end the human life as we know it - The I WANT IT, I WANT IT, I WANT IT!! Attitude followed by the tantrums people have if you say - please don't do something destructive - change your behavior.
At the end of the day meat is barbaric - eating the butchered seared flesh of other animals animals, kept in their own ordeal, often unable to move around and pumped full of hormones and antibiotics. I agree it tastes nice (used to eat flesh) but frankly heroin is supposed ti be the most amazing feeling - most people still resist cos it's bad for them and bad for society.
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i believe this is yet another example of a fallacious argument, you are shifting the issue from the political to the psychological. i do not think problems such as the food industry's plundering policies can be resolved by the good will of isolated citizens. wherever you put forth this argument you end up with a tragedy of the commons. these issues can only be tackled through political involvement, i.e. become politically aware and active and organize your community.
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Re: bigsammyb.Growing up in the country does not automatically brain wash you into being able to kill for your dinner!I also grew up in the country with shooting/fishing and hunting and killing animals horrified me then and it horrifies me now. I could not murder a living creature. Intensive farming of animals is unimaginable living hell for the poor creatures bred for our food and is kept behind closely guarded doors because the ghastly truth is truly unpalatable. Whilst the debate for meat eating versus vegetarianism/ veganism will be discussed until the cows come home (or go to the slaughterhouse) the fundamental truth is this:-human beings are such diverse creatures that there will always be carnivores and there will always be vegans.There will be those that kill easily and those that could NEVER kill. Those that turn a blind eye and those that campaign.Those that care and those that don't.One thing is for sure, anyone who lectures another against their beliefs is wasting their breath and the outcome is usually the opposite of what they had hoped to achieve.
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I really don't understand. You are speaking about ethics. You say it is not ethical to eat meat. You mention sympathetically and praise: "Adolf Hitler managed it". What did he manage? With whom the animals or the humans? A pity you couldn't have worked out your ethics with the likes of him in one of his institutions for ethics, you could learn arbeit macht frei and be free to practice your ethics.
This is the way of the wicked. Eating or not eating meat is an ethical play to cover unethical life with a righteous feeling. The matter of eating meat is a diet and health matter. Some people thrive on it and some should not eat eat for heath reasons. The entire world is built on a principle of living off one the other. Maybe a cow is wicked to the grass? How to,live ethically in this world requires a slightly different approach for those who indeed are interested and not just trying to make face for a life based only on fulfilling personal desires whatever is the outcome.
Thank the Lord I gave up many personal desires to do right for mankind. Let there be common sense.
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Last night we had mackerel from the freezer. Caught, despatched and gutted by myself. Tomorrow it's lamb, also from the freezer, which lived a happy life a few hundred yards from here, made a short journey, was despatched humanely at the slaughterhouse, then cut into suitable pieces on my kitchen table (by me). If the broody hens produce cockerels, they have a lovely free-range life until ready for eating, my husband does the necessary (I catch them, because they're used to me and it's less stressful for them), and the flavour's second to none. So, yes, I do look my meat in the eye (and I have been known to apologise to a trout as I bop it on the head). There is no wasted food in this household! Humans are omnivores, with suitable teeth and guts for the purpose, and the countryside of Britain would look very odd if there were no grazing animals. Soya has to be imported. No idea what Quorn is but I've not seen it growing here. If veggies want to be truly ethical, then it's a diet of potatoes and turnips with the odd carrot and parsnip and maybe some winter greens for most of the winter!
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This issue is so often portrayed as a contest between carnivores and vegetarians when there is a sensible middle course. The real issue, that has been touched upon by some posts, is that of waste.
My family eats omnivorously and well but we have always ensured that we don't waste food. We grow a lot of our own food in our small garden and the labour involved in bringing fruit and veg to the table makes us value it more than an equivalent a bag of supermarket produce.
This doesn't make us hippies, just people who want to eat the very best flavoured strawberry at the moment when the flavour is perfect.
Our children respect the food on the table and that includes the meat or fish elements. Waste is almost unknown at our meals and surplus, including bones is always reserved for subsequent meals, soups, stews and similar. Only those parts of vegetables that are unusable are discarded but then only as far as our compost heap. We never send compostable organic matter to land fill.
If people were more connected to the food production process and had to actually get their hands dirty on a regular basis they would respect and enjoy the food on their table more. As I see it the issue is overproduction of inferior quality leading to overconsumption and excessive waste.
I have always taken the view that this is their misfortune but perhaps the message should be quality not quantity in order to reduce demand in developed countries. Incidentally quality has nothing to do with getting fruits all to an identical size and weight, that's just production engineering.
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"So the question is: how can we get people to change what they eat?"
Easy - celebrity chefs. Just get Jamie Oliver, or whichever one of them is most in favour these days, to bring out a vegan cookbook, and get some delicious veggie and vegan food onto the cooking shows. Way more effective than anything the Government could ever achieve. How about it BBC?
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I can eat meat 3 meals a day, and do it while idling in a gas guzzling SUV for 20 minutes just to let it warm up. I can leave my lights on 24/7 and even burn a few tires just for the hell of it and STILL I am having less of an impact on the environment than most people. Because I am choosing to remain childless. Not only that, given that I'm also less selfish than most as the average person concerned about the environment goes with the motto "We need to save the planet for our children and grandchildren to enjoy". Im saving it for other peoples children and grandchildren.
You can stop the basic math, no matter how much consumption per person you cut down, if the number of people never stops growing than you will always keep growing in the amount of resources people consume. If you got everyone to the diminish our quality of life so the whole world used 1/6th the rescources (and coincidentally torpedoes all the "wasted" resources on high science) we would have breathing room for under a century before we are right back to where we are now, only with 36 billion people and no more waste to cut.
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The arguments above against abstaining from eating carcasses seem to be
1. Humans are carnivores "designed to eat meat". Wrong. Unlike carnivores we do not have claws sufficient to rip flesh, dont have sharp teeth sufficent to eat flesh (and we have flat rear molars), our intestinal tract is 4 times the length of carnivores (short intestines mean decaying meat can pass quickly) and our stomach acid is 20 times less strong than meat eaters.
2. Its too difficult. There are millions of healthy veggies and vegans eating a wide variety of food and living very healthy lives thank you! There are plenty of celebrity veggies for those who need role models, and for the men who find it difficult to step beyond the "I'll eat anything ho ho" macho image there have been World Boxing champions and wrestling champions that are vegetarian!
3. I can eat meat so I will and theres nothing you can do! The standpoint of a bully. No reason, just the fact they can. Could justify any cruelty to people or animals.
George Monbiot has accepted that going vegan is the way to contribute to saving the planet. And importing foods from struggling countries to feed animals being intensively farmed so people here can eat their meat is selfish and contrary to chaning world poverty
No one can stop people continuing to eat meat but please don't put forward lame arguments in defence, just hold your hands up and say "sorry, I know its selfish and harmful to animals and the planet but I'm not a person with the necessary will, determination or courage to do it"
Finally, to answer some other points above. Sheep farming IS uneconomic, without the subsidies we taxpayers pay on each sheep (resulting in overstocking of land and the resultant starvation and suffering of millions of sheep and lambs) there would be no money in it.
There are only so many cattle because we commercially and unaturally breed through artificial insemination. Giving up meat would not mean an explosion of the cattle population!
Just because someone was brought up shooting fishing and hunting does not mean they have to blindly accept it, though of course most people are blind followers and do not have the character to challenge it.
Sadly most people feel safer and happier as part of the "herd" looking out for themselves, unable to take an independent moral position (if its legal they'll do it).
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#41 is absolutely correct that the biggest problem facing the world today is overpopulation. OTOH if all the socially responsible people stop having children while the feckless and criminal display reckless fecundity, where will that leave us?
What needs to happen is that governments grasp the nettle and stop rewarding people who have more than 2 children and instead do the opposite.
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Do you think that Native Americans should also give up meat? I hope that you don't think so. I hunt with a Crow guide on his reservation. It is one of the greatest pleasures on earth. About the only impact we have on the flora & fauna is that, by me spending a little money, we are keeping things exactly as they have been since the last Ice Age.
Farming (even organic vegetables) destroys nature. The antelope I hunt (legally with the permission & benefit of the Crow Nation) would not be there if the land were converted over to feed vegans. Therefore, I believe that the Jain doctrine of ahimsa is ethically bankrupt. I believe that people, just like dogs & cats, should eat meat and not feel bad about it.
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Vegetarians don't eat fish! You cannot eat fish and call yourself a vegetarian. No fish, no flesh, no fowl, according to the Vegetarian Society.
As for me, well, I was a vegetarian for four years in my late teens until I went for a curry one night and just couldn't face yet another vegetable biryani. I certainly eat less meat now than I used to, but I do enjoy what meat I do eat, which for the four or five years prior to my stint of vegetarianism I didn't.
As far as climate change goes, I am not convinced that carbon dioxide is responsible for global warming. I consider biofuels to be a total con, and the use of agricultural land to grow crops solely for biofuels is just crazy. We do need to conserve what petrochemical resources we have, obviously, but surely we could do that by way of producing vehicles that don't use so much petrol (Americans would hate that), designing more efficient gas fuelled power stations and using less plastic packaging.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The argument for stoping meat consumption will not work the same way the climate change argument will not work either. The reason for this is simply Elitist talking down to people to enforce their views on others. I also have a problem with creating a sort of perfect world, it is strange that you mentioned Adolph Hitler as he tried to create a perfect world too. Living in this world means some people will smoke some wont,some eat meat some wont,some will drink some wont.
My greatest problem is leftwing-liberal minded persons trying to force their view on others,try having people vote on these things and you will see what happen.The next reason these things will fail is that the majority of persons in the world are religious and elitist tend to ridicule this group and you are now coming to us with all these issues do you really think they will support you now.
As a Christian myself we see a trend where the western world (leaders) have given up on their Christian and Jewish roots and replacing it with these causes. We even see a trend where the Animals are now being treated as Humans and embracing Earth worhip. While not advocating the destruction of the Earth, our Bible states clearly that GOD gave placed man in charge of everything on the Earth. The biggest problem you will have convincing people is simply that persons will associate causes like this with persons who are;
Trying to change our laws on Sexuality and marriage
Stop Christmas celebrations
Trying to imprison Kids who pray at School
Trying to subverte Pastors who preach the Bible
Tree Huggers
Extreme animal rights activist
These all have one thinh in common-Elitist
In closing i will state that eating healthy is good,sharing is good, but the greatest thing is seeking GOD before it is too late read John 3 vs1
GOD Bless
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42. Rob Roach
You are correct, we are not carnivores. However, we are not designed to be herbiores either, Our appendix is a stunted left over that it tiny when compared to herbivorous animals.
We are, in fact, omnivores, designed to eat whatever we can get. This is why we have both canine teeth and flat molars.
Where we differ from other animals in nature, is that we can choose to be Vegan (usually unhealthy pasty looking things who need supplements such as vitamns in their diet), plastic veggies (those who claim not to eat meat, but eat Ffish, chicken, or dairy products because it is fashionable to do so, or be what we are, an animal that is well placed to make the most of what food options there are, be it vegetable or animal!
Going vegan will not save the planet. Apart from turning to bamboo while having an omnivore's digestive system being the major reason why Pandas will soon cease to exist without Man to save them, there is no sense in it. The way to help the environment is to stop breeding, limit ourselves to 1 child, 2 at the extreme, and while we are at it, boot the various churches out of the likes of Africa, as their insistance on not using contraception and requiring constant breeding of yet more starving children, is the biggest contrbutor to ocerpopulation, poverty and the spead of disease!
If you are going to justify veggie-burgers, be honest and just say that you don't like meat, instead of hiding behind some holier than thow rubbish which is plainly a lie!
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20% of the worlds population consumes 86% of the world products and food.
Bon appetite.
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The human species is still evolving- Vegetarians are more evolved than non-vegetarians.
Reason:- 1) Man invented agriculture to stop hunting and cause less pain to his fellow creatures which was & is one of the most important stage and catalyst in the evolution of man to form civilization. 2) Compassion is a trait which cannot be found with people who think that it is their right to kill for their food when there is plenty of food available, without the need to kill animals. 3) Flesh is same, whether it is human or animal- There is no rationality in concluding that animal flesh is meant to be consumed by humans- If that is the case every carnivore has a right to eat humans and reclaim the earth or cannibals justifying their acts !
Yes I understand, it is not possible to put sense into a non-vegetarian about vegetarianism, because he is less evolved. Finally, wherever there is a predominantly non vegetarian society- there is more violence and unrest
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You are Borrrrrrring! So don't attempt to impose your pathetic vegan ethical reasoning on the rest of us. A waste of space. You want to eat grass then go ahead. Mmmm Turkey. Pass the gravy.
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Why do people find it so hard to give up meat? I too was a meat eater for many years but phased it out of my diet about seven years ago.
I really don't miss it at all now. It is still awkward at social occasions to declare I'm on the vegetarian option, because you are put in a position of having to justify what you eat and are given quizzical looks and shrugs of miscomprehension.
The point has been made here that very few people would still be meat eaters if they had to slaughter their 'food' themselves or witness what truly goes on in factory farming and abattoirs.
The vast majority of people choose to ignore all the disturbing aspects of meat production because their eating habits appear paramount to them.
It really isn't that difficult to drop meat gradually from your diet. You will find yourself feeling healthier, spending less and having a new-found respect and concern for the farm animals who are so cruelly exploited at the moment.
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People say that meat production contributes to global warming, but say we were to stop eating beef for example, what will become of the cows that are no longer being eaten? Surely they will either are set free of kept alive or whatever and continue to cause gas emissions or millions of cows will needlessly be slaughtered.
this would not be ethical or fair. People need to consider the outcomes of these farfetched kind of schemes and get down from their high horse.
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If we are to wait for a solution from commercial sources for this problem - we'll all be going hungry and paying more for our food. The commercial companies and system does not provide solutions unless there is a profit in it.
That a third of the Brazilian rainforests have been levelled just so that the Brazilian farmers can grow crops to feed cattle and livestock is a testimony to commerce.
Less people in the world need to be eating less meat. Simple.
This would solve so many issues - all revolving around carbon impact - for the world.
Getting western supermarkets to run/operate on a more ethical and environmentally sound strategy would help solve there issues too.
Roll on 100% VAT on Steak!!
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If there were 50 percent less people in the world there would not be many problems. What about culling everyone at the age of 30 years and eating them just like in that film: Logan's run! .. oh right they didn't eat them they incinerated them.. what a waste! Anyway, I think the planet will settle our hash at some point, we have sucked it dry already.
I think it's ridiculous to stop eating meat by the way, just so we can continue to infest this planet with more humans, but I strongly object to treating animals badly before we eat them.
Merry Christmas! (from an atheist)
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I think that folks generally don't want to consider veganism because they think it is such a massive lifestyle change. I was the same, but realised I was a hypocrite for saying I loved animals, but I still ate them! I made the connection and went vegetarian but soon discovered that it was just as cruel as meat-eating, so then I went vegan. At the time there were not nearly as many vegan alternatives, but these days there is no excuse to eat meat/dairy - there are plenty of delicious vegan alternatives to everything!
Even better - my asthma symptoms have halved, my eczema has disappeared, I feel fitter and have more energy. I just wish I had been vegan from birth.. talking of which, my (vegan) husband and I are also happily childfree, having chosen to care for farm and 'pet' animals that have been abused and/or discarded by non-vegans.
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It's hard to justify the annual slaughter-fest of an animal that in the wild can live for up to 20 years but which when farmed - even free-range farmed- gets just a few weeks of life before dying to fulfill a deeply untraditional (for the UK) Xmas role. Just when did the turkey become that indispensable part of our Yule indulge-a-thon? How about a commitment to satisfy our omnivorous appetites and consciences by refusing to eat immature as well as battery-farmed animals?
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Okay, next week about population growth, but I think you have got your priorities totally wrong. If we stop eating meat, population growth will fairly soon catch up, and the world will be hungry again (except of course that there will be a lot more people to go hungry then). On the other hand, if the world population should decrease sufficiently, we could all eat as much meat as we wanted to, and also enjoy all sorts of agreeable activities that are now frowned upon because they are supposed to destroy the earth, like taking very long hot showers. Tackle overpopulation first, an all environmental problems will eventually solve themselves!
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#42, "No one can stop people continuing to eat meat but please don't put forward lame arguments in defence, just hold your hands up and say "sorry, I know its selfish and harmful to animals and the planet but I'm not a person with the necessary will, determination or courage to do it"
Hey, how about this. I don't believe in the CO2 hype, don't believe that eating meat harms the planet any more than I would do if I bought a new car, new TV and new hifi every few years, and therefore choose to continue eating meat because I disagree with every claim you make regarding why I shouldn't eat meat.
But I did have to laugh at it being harmful to animals. I suppose killing animals (assuming you're not talking about eating roadkill) doesn't score highly on the "look after the cute fluffy things" chart does it?
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Catsbananas wrote:my (vegan) husband and I are also happily childfree, having chosen to care for farm and 'pet' animals that have been abused and/or discarded by non-vegans.
Are you for real? With all of the orphaned children in the world needing loving parents you choose to take care of animals? And proud of it? I suggest you need to get your priorities in order. The high moral hair shirt tone that you vegans adopt makes me sick.
You want to keep fit on your nut roast good for you but please don't seek to preach to me about the error of my meat eating ways. You are a minority remember.
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"Eating ethically"? I suppose then that you and your family didn't eat Quorn or any soya products as well then, seen as the rainforests of our world are being demolished to grow soya and the like. I suppose you also didn't wear leather, wool or silk either during that time.
I'm sick of the holier-than-thou spew that vegitarians and vegans come out with. Yes, we might have a lower chance of having a heart attack but we also have a bigger chance of developing bowel cancer. Yes. You heard right. I myself am a vegitarian. For me, I don't particularly like the taste of meat or eggs or dairy, etc. I would be classed as vegan if it wasn't for the fact I use honey. That doesn't mean I have the right to tell my husband he shouldn't have a bacon toastie if he so fancied one.
We may not have the right teeth or claws to eat meat, nor have the stamina to run after prey, but we were born with brains to help us make tools and our bodies need Vitamin B12. You won't find any of that in your veggies (and who wants to rely on artificial supplements every day??? I only do as I don't like the taste of animal products.)
All I am trying to say is that each person knows what is right for them. I know far more vegitarians and vegans who are hostile towards meat-eaters than meat-eaters who are hostile towards vegans and vegitarians. EACH TO THEIR OWN.
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I am an ethical vegan, and have been so for about 2 years. It was a decision I made based purely on moral grounds, and even though as a lifestyle the ideology benefits personal health and the environment, an ethical vegan does so to remove their support of the notion that animals are there to be treated as property. The evidence of what is being done to other animals disturbs me so much, if being vegan was detrimental to my health, I would do it without question.
From an early age as children we are suppressed in a conditioning system which makes us believe, it is okay to love “domestic animals”, but accept the use of so called “farm animals” for our own ends. An ethical vegan challenges the belief that any being should be used as property of others, and call to the forefront the confusion inherent in society that we can love cats and dogs (to extremities in most cases), but sticking a fork into a pig, raping a cow for milk, or wearing animal products as clothes is okay. There is absolutely no moral difference between the life of one creature and another, and all sentient beings deserve to be treated with the same respect we ourselves expect from others.
If we were to consider a situation where these suffering animals were replaced with humans, be that for production of food, drink, clothing, medical testing, racing, breeding, and all the other forms of twisted exploitation, we would stand up and protest - without question. The only reason we do not is because we feel (incorrectly in my view) that we are in some way superior to these other beings. Sure, a cow cannot send an email or do calculus, but intelligence is not a factor we should use to determine the validity of other beings lives. The animals we are exploiting are all sentient, they feel pain, emotions and have an interest in staying alive. We are acting in a speciesist manner towards nonhumans, there is no question of that.
If you care for other beings, there is no choice to make here, it is our moral obligation to respect other animals and go vegan.
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I have to disagree with much you say. First you say 'most people agree they should not eat meat' and then go on to point out that the first thing people do in developing countries when they have a better economic position, is to increase the meat they eat.
Second the old chestnut, you should be able to kill an animal yourself if you want to eat it. Can you build a computer, not from parts, but from plastic, solder and basic materials - No I thought not, so why are you using a computer on the Internet ?
I believe we have to understand that we have little or no control over nature, and that it is fanciful for scientists to say we can limit global warming to 1.5 or 2 degrees just by decreasing our CO2 levels, the globe doesn't have a thermostat on it. We may well have triggered this warming, but stopping it is a whole different ball game.
We need to use technologies to ensure there is more efficient use of water and better ways to provide food, this does not mean everyone going vegan. We also need to control the global population. There are just two many hidden agendas in the climate game, people like McCartney who I suspect fly and drive rather a lot whilst promoting their own vegan agenda.
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I find that if those talking about reform of the healthcare system in the U.S. were seriously concerned with health, they'd be including an end to meat and dairy subsidies. But since the traditional way to make deals in Washington is over a steak dinner, perhaps that sort of consistency is too much to ask?
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Eating meat is fine.
It is good healthy food. Eating meat is not contributing to the destruction of the planet. Eating meat will not contribute to a food crisis; there is plenty of land to produce whatever is wanted/needed.
I can’t see how all this nebulous, self-indulgent scaremongering at the BBC can be considered in any way ethical. Perhaps this blog should be renamed ‘Scaremonger Man’ or perhaps even ‘Right On Man’.
And surprise surprise, the subject of taxation appears. Of course! Save the Planet! Use more tax! It reminds me of David Miliband’s fatuous conclusion ‘green is the new red’.
Tell you what – if we ship out all the unethical meat-eaters to Siberia then all the others that are left (the decent, the spiritual, the ethical, the lovers of ye earth) can get on with saving the planet without being hindered by all those nasty old criminal minds distracting from the call to the tax office!
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I greatly appreciate your efforts and this information you are sharing. It is too bad we haven't figured out how to live while also looking at the big picture. IF WE COULD instigate 1 day/week that was meat free in SCHOOL LUNCHES and then in RESTAURANTS and at HOME and WORK. If we could just have a slow increase in the one day a week we didn't have the more resource taxing types of foods, then we could all share the responsibility and maybe even build some character.
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Royalalbertdock:- I too, care for and rescue animals which have been abused and discarded by the human race.I too, am childless. My unborn child died naturally and I have not conceived since and aged 44 I am now unlikely to. I think I could offer a fantastic home to an unloved child who needs a parent. I have seriously considered and looked into adoption, but to adopt a child from abroad is all but impossible (even illegal) and to adopt a child in England the authorities here take months of deeply delving into your private life and lifestyle before deciding if my skin matches the child/ whether my religion is the same as the birth parent/ if i am the right weight to adopt etc etc.It is a sad fact that most of the orphaned children you refer to will NEVER find a home because of the restrictions imposed by our government.I am, therefore, sorry that people like me, who rescue animals instead of children make you sick.
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I generally have no problem with vegetarians. It's their choice at the end of the day. However, peope like the person posting comment #62 really get my goat. Firstly - what right do you have to tell me what to eat? It's these people who may invite you to a meal, but offer only vegetarian/vegan food. How would you like it if I invited you to a meal and offered only meat? People deserve to choose what they eat, regardless of another's moral/ethical view.
Secondly - all of these things about "sticking a fork into a pig" etc do not hold water. These animals are bred for this purpose - these animals as you know them wouldn't exist otherwise. For example, we do NOT "rape" cows for milk. The breed used produce too much milk for their calfs, so we simply take the excess which causes no harm to the animal. If they're fed properly and given all the nutrients they need, this milk production has little or no effect on their bodies (I'm a vet by the way before you question my knowledge). If you truly knew what you were talking about you would've pointed to the thousands of bull calfs born on dairy establishments which are killed each year because they have no practical use and provide the farm with no profit. These are the real losers, and these animals should be used rather than cruelly wasted in the way they are.
Broilers - that is chickens reared for meat - suffer from many medical problems due to their massively increased growth rate. This is because of the way they have been bred in the past, but steps are being taken to breed this trait out of them because it causes unnecessary suffering.
I have worked on many farming establishments - dairy, beef, extensive/intensive pig and poultry, sheep and deer farms etc. and in my experience these animals are incredibly well looked after. It is, after all, in the farmer's best interests to look after his animals as well as possible as these are his livelihood. One dairy farm I worked on was incredible - unlike most farmers who have their animals shot when they need to be put down (which is far from barbaric since it's instant death) they called a vet out to give a lethal injection, so concerned were they that their animals were respected and cared for until the moment they died.
I feel that everyone should be educated about where their meat and animal products comes from. It will stop the sensationalist view of this "harsh and cruel life" domesticated animals lead. The truth is cruelty and suffering is in a tiny minority of establishments. It is the good places people should go and see, instead of swallowing these PETA propaganda videos that select one bad establishment out of thousands of good ones. Instead of saying "look how bad this is, stop eating meat" you should be saying "look how bad this is, lets get that place shut down and care for the animals there properly."
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Scientific data show that e.g. during WWII mental illnesses and especially schizophrenia significantly decreased because meat was not a readily available food source.
However, vegetarian cooking has to be taught correctly.
What is offered in Restaurants is a disgrace, usually just tinned food dressed up with lots of runny cheese, lots of wheat and gluten, salt and sugar. We ought to rediscover the wonderful tast of natural food, e.g. just potatoes cooked in a little water, mashed, green beans cooked for 7 minutes in boiling water, and an omelette with tomatoes etc.
We also ought to rediscover fruit cooked and raw as an accepted dessert.
All the messing about with food by chefs on any TV channel does not help the vegetarian mandate. It is not that our children "only eat chips and burgers" but that women/men who find little time for their kids or cooking prefer it that way. Sanity and rational thinking in how to rebuild family structures that benefit society will naturally lead the way away from enormous meat consumption. (Ever ventured into a restaurant with loads of retired people carted their by bus eating giant meat portions which will lead to illnesses the NHS has to pay millions of pounds for. The Vegetarian option is not for sentimental old ladies or
teenagers but the one way forward for this world's population.
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I would prefer to feed my family natural meat than manufactured quorn! Several commentators have already hit the nail on the head - its over population that is the problem.
More money for effective birth control in developing countries, plus a benefit system that doesn't reward extra kids. Free choice is important (China is no role model) but something needs to be done and we should look firstly at our own country. If population is pegged at current levels or even better reduced, we can all eat meat (though maybe should consider quality over quantity)
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Well I have followed this thread following my own post earlier today.
Nobody is going to persuade me to eat vegetables (only). Vegetables with the exceptions of potatoes, onions (and their kin) peas, mange-tout, carrots, salad stuff and sometimes parsnips, are disgusting and make me vomit. To suggest that I might become a "vegan" is an insult to the intelligence.
As for the animals, well no I don't approve of what I consider to be cruelty, equally I find pathetic the attitude that seeks to ascribe human characteristics to them.
And for what it's worth, I have bought free-range eggs exclusively for more than thirty years. Now we have our own chickens, so the eggs are excellent. Every now and then a chicken drops dead so we leave her out. Here there are foxes (horrible things) martens, stoats, buzzards &c., so this is recycling in action one might say.
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Petra wrote:The Vegetarian option is not for sentimental old ladies or
teenagers but the one way forward for this world's population.
Thus endeth the first ( but snorringly not the last ) vegan lesson. Amen. Shall we pray.Zzzzzz.
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I am a veterinarian and raise fiber animals (NON food)precisely because I find the slaughtering process abhorrent.
Thirty years ago the book DIET FOR A SMALL PLANET by Frances Moore Lappé anticipated it all: reading it changed my life and attitude towards meat-producing animals, and it should be a bible for everyone involved in 'ethical' living
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Here's an idea for rearing cattle, while minimising their carbon footprint:
Cattle should reared in vast buildings the size seen in modern warehousing. If this were the case, methane could be captured, stored and used for energy. Cattle would have free movement within the building, but would never venture outside, other than being transported for slaughter.
The slurry would be swept from the smooth concrete florr regularly, even automatically, and transfered to silos, where further sources of energy can be extracted. The remaining solids, would then be used to fertilise the surrounding fields which are used to grow the cattle's feed.
This idea is not going to win any ethical debates any time soon, but if we continue to eat meat, we have to find a more efficient and less carbon intensive way of producing it.
As far as cattle is concerned, the breeds we use today, are so far removed from those nature intended, due to selective breeding through the centuries, that they would not be able to survive in the wild. They are beyond a tipping point.
Breeding cattle in this way may not appeal to most, but it does have its merits.
Far in the future, as we venture into space, we will need to feed ourselves.
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The one commment that I read that made most sense was the one about over population.
Frankly the sooner we can persuade the catholics, muslims, and other 'faith zealots' that breeding billions extra followers is not needed and is putting their lives in danger the better, then finally we might find preachers telling people to use condoms, the pill etc. to reduce their own output of offspring.
WE DO NOT NEED ANOTHER SINGLE HUMAN for at least the next 10 years! We don't need them to provide for the old ones, we don't need them to continue to hold unsustainably large number of humans in populations, we certainly don't need them to avoid offending 'God' in whatever form he takes.
We DO need to reduce the human population DRASTICALLY, this one act will solve global warming, starvation, lack of medicines indeed most of the diseases. In a lot of respects I am saddened that the various pundits were so wrong about swine flu, the human population could do with a good 25% knocked out. Heres a nicer idea - restrict every woman to a single pregnancy, once she has had that then sterilize her, restrict every man to causing a single pregnancy, after that castrate him, stop ALL forms of artificial preganancy (test tube etc.) This way we will reduce the population - and quite quickly.
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The Bible says that the animals and plants were here to sustain us, doesn't it? I don't feel sorry for the cows, turkeys, chickens etc. I have some fresh deer meat that I intend to thoroughly enjoy! Eat what you want, but don't expect me to follow your example...
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We have eaten less and less animal flesh over time because we actually like experimenting with other foodstuffs to find recipes that are easy and tasty, ethical to a greater extent than before, and less harmful to our household budget as well as our carbon footprint.
It's not been difficult, it's not been too challenging, and yes, we have eaten all that we have made, good, bad or indifferent so as not to make too much waste from those meals production.
What amazes me at festive times like this, the sheer amount of foodstuffs crammed into trolleys, people shopping for a siege, complaining bitterly afterwards that they haven't got the storage space for so much gluttony and greed. The shops are only shut for a day or two, yet all i see are people with two trolley loads where there would normally be one! How many of you folk out there, hand on heart, couldn't have fed a small battalion of lonely old folk or a few homeless souls on the overbuying of food you did, just because it's Christmas?
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It is actually pretty easy to lead a vegetarian life in the UK. There are nearly always vegetarian options on restaurant menus and there are vegetarian restaurants throughout the country. This is NOT the case in the rest of mainland Europe. I would especially love to see someone try and persuade the French, Spanish and Italians that eating meat is wrong and unethical.
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In regards to 62. Richard Frost :
I am pretty sure that you can't get milk out of a cow by raping it, unless of course, you have some new findings to share with the scientific community.
If you want to sway people, try using cool, logical arguments, rather than fanatical sophistry. You will only alienate people who may have been sympathetic to your cause and further polarize the divide between meat-eaters and omnivores, a dynamic that pervades the modern discussion of this issue.
If your logic is sound, you ought not need to resort to such histrionics to sway your listener.
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Re post No 75; I agree: the population is probably 25% too large.
I do not agree with the suggestion that men be castrated; I have never made any babies, so why should my sex life be ended by fiat?
By all means address the nauseating "may you have many sons" tradition.
And on this subject, not only have neither I, nor my girlfriend made babies (and we won't) we have both smoked for years (I for for over forty). Governments would do well to rescind the absurd anti-smoking legislation - after all, according to the "experts" having smoked and eaten meat and cream, taken lots of salt and no exercise &c. ad nauseam, I am statistically dead aren't I?
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"It is also not about the incredible health benefits I experienced from my brief flirtation with ethical eating - I shed 2kg in 31 days and saw my cholesterol level plummet from 5.6 mmol/L (rather high) to just 3.4 mmol/L (very low for a man of my age)."
That sounds like it could be due to not getting enough rather than being healthy.
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Sigh... another week, another vegetarianism debate full of lame generalisations, spurious science and over-defensive comments from dunder-headed meat-eaters.
Eat what you want, you lot, but don't try and mask your unease about the horrors of the mechanised meat trade in hackneyed juvenile cliches about farting and Hitler (who, incidentally, WASN'T a vegetarian - and even if he was, so what? Stalin was a meat-eater!)
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I wonder how things would be if it were a mandatory part of grade school to visit a slaughter house?
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Of course when push comes to shove we shall probably have to eat each other - and we will when we are hungry enough. Too many people that's the real problem facing the planet.
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You write: "I know the arguments pretty well (I hope you will agree) and I've experienced the health benefits first hand. But I will still be sitting down to a turkey dinner come Christmas. So perhaps some gentle coercion might therefore be more effective. "
How about this: You Will Die earlier. In addition, you will have more health problems throughout your life. You will get (have a higher probability of having) more cancers, more heart attacks, more internal organ diseases, more sugar imbalances, probably diabetes type 2, your skin will develop more signs of aging, and you may even become impotent due to circulatory issues which will destroy your sex life.
Read The China Study (and associated books like The Engine 2 Diet). It's not the greatest "final proof" of veganism, however it's the best that medical science has currently produced. The medical literature is quite clear on this: being vegan is the best option to live a long fully healthy life without risk of cancer, heart attack, obesity, etc. Vegan means: eating whole grains, raw vegetables, cooked vegetables, eating fungus (mushrooms), taking a B12 vitamin supplement, no dairy, no eggs, no meat.
As your own cooking showed, a vegan diet is very tasty. There are thousands of spices and ways to cook.
If you want to die early with many health complications along the way, then eat meat. Plain and simple.
As for your trite ending: "So here's a festive challenge: I want you to craft that limp carrot, half-eaten packet of cheese and the remains last night's pizza into a delicious Christmas spread. It has to be possible to rustle up something palatable... doesn't it?"
Don't be so ridiculous -- a limp carrot and old cheese?? As a vegan, I eat really, really well, and your joking reference to a limp carrot is not palatable. Secondly, leftover cheese is not vegan anyway and should not be included. Fresh, crispy vegetables are the way. Take a fresh carrot that's sliced, some garlic, some onion, tumeric powder, chili powder, garbanzo(chickpea) beans that have been soaked overnight and previously boiled lightly, mix these up with a handful of mixed seeds (sesame seed, sunflower seed, and flax seed), mix all this up, and you have a splendid salad or main course if put over a small amount of cooked rice noodles. There is zero added "oil" and zero animal product in something simple like this. Everyone will be jealous, too. So why do people eat meat? Maybe it's just that people are sheep and follow what they've been given by parents or massive amounts of corporate marketing, rather than spending a little more effort to be healthier.
Your video showed there was only ONE sandwich in the entire shop which you could eat, and that's quite sad. Corporations are pushing meat harder than anyone, and the vegan gets squeezed out. Do the corporations care about your health? No, they are only concerned with whether you buy that meat sandwich today, regardless of giving you cancer tomorrow.
It doesn't require "coercion" to become vegan. It just requires only buying vegetables and grains at the grocery store. If you don't bring the bad stuff home, you won't eat it. It is a simple decision for the future. Eating out is more difficult and takes some creativity. Normally pack a lunch or skip dinner out. Even "vegetarian" menus may use chicken stock to cook rice. So, unfortunately, restaurants are also not on your side as a vegan.
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Is it a coincidence that all the aggressive comments here are from meat eaters? Meat eating is no more "what we are meant to do" than is killing all the weak people in society - both are what we evolved to do but we have managed to recognise there is also an ethical dimension to these things - well, at least some of us have. The arrogant attitude displayed by many posters, assuming without question that "subhuman" species can be exploited at will without concern for their suffering, is what will see the end of the human race on this planet - the shame is that we will destroy many other innocent species on the way.
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Rob Roach says "Giving up meat would not mean an explosion of the cattle population!"
He is of course quite correct. Farmers have cattle to make money. No meat eating means no demand for cattle. No demand means kill them all and let the countryside be full of cabbages with the only cattle in zoos. Then the veggies can say to their children "look what we used to have in the fields in the bad old days.
PS. I am 66, I am an omnivore, I am healthy and my cholesterol level at the last reading was 2.8.
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Ethical Man!? What is ethical about man choosing to kill another creature (having treated him or her as a possession for the whole of their shortened life) so that he can eat their flesh, when he can live a perfectly healthy life without doing so?
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Yeah, yeah - 'ethics' as cruelty to animals. What else happened on the ethical front while you were faffing about with quorn, mate? Did you get to notice the religion that has no name on the attack? Did FOLKS getting blown to hamburger all over the world engage your attention for a moment or two? How about the Nobel going to a bloke that sent 30,000 soldiers into battle and launched several cruise missile at a sovereign country within days of accepting the 'peace prize'?
Yes, there are strong connections to be made between eating (too much) meat and the the ecological decay/famines that drive people to war, but you never made them in any real terms, and neither has the Beeb.
Why is it that all modern experience has to be organised? Kind of thinking 'What would it be like if....?' when there's a whole world out there to experience and report upon. Problem is, the dumb left has shifted the lexical goalposts so far that the words of shock, outrage, anger and frustration we need so badly are now tabu. So we have to hide under the blankets with our pet turkey. In more ways than one.
I solved the veggie ethics problem by not eating any meat that I hadn't reared, killed, dressed and cooked myself at least a couple of times, then trying to treat meat as the luxury it is, rather than an anachronistic demonstration of social status ('rich enough to put meat on the table seven days a week') - another part of the discussion that anyone, repeat anyone, involved in this particular debate touches upon - unless they blog for the Beeb, in which case a little superficial emotion, a couple of anecdotes, and a very slightly bloody pic are enough to secure a good postbag, the only measure of success. Pathetic.
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People seem to have this wierd belief that if we had to kill our own animals we would be less likely to want meat.
I hate to point it out to these spoiled rotten modernists, but for thousands of years people did kill their own meat. In most of the world people still DO kill their own meat and no one has a problem with it.
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I feel certain no one brought up in the depression years ever wastes food,much more likely to be miserly with it. My nickname in America when I was a student there in 1950 was "The Garbage Can" as I would not let anyone throw a black banana away. There would be disgusted sounds as I ate them even when I showed them the pristine white flesh revealed when I peeled them. As food becomes more expensive through scarcity people will learn not to waste it.
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Quote "Nor is it about how the food we eat is destroying the planet. Everyone knows that now - though, if you will allow me a little boast - we in the Ethical Man team pretty much got their first".
1) the food we eat is NOT destroying the planet. A major metor stike might do this, but nit eating meat thank you.
2) you didn't get there first by a number of decades - hardly "ethical" to lie like this.
3) how do you define ethical? Since your view is the ethical one and anyone else is, by your definition, "unethical". What an insulting and patronising person you are - far from ethiical. Yet another exmaple of my licence fee wasted.
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I watch animals carefully and they think identically to humans with peaks and dips in their thinking. They have minds. But the honest truth for my avoiding unhealthy meats like beef is my doctors advice. I don't need colon cancer etc.
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I cannot understand why products such as orange juice are VAT rated whereas marmalade isn't. And considering marmalade is half sugar it seems a bit daft. Also a lot of sugar heavy cereals are VAT exempt. Come on let's get it right. Or is it because the sugar lobby is more powerful than the government. Come to think of it most food industry lobbies seem to be more powerful than the government. Not a lot of optimism then.
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Bacon for breakfast, a ham sandwich for lunch and chicken for tea. Is it not a case of meat is OK but as usual we are having too much of it. Same with births. What ever happened to everything in moderation? We are highlighting meat but what about dairy products as well - surely the two go hand in hand (well hoof in hoof). People just don't know when to stop.
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"The point has been made here that very few people would still be meat eaters if they had to slaughter their 'food' themselves or witness what truly goes on in factory farming and abattoirs."
The point may have been made, but it is still nonsense. Plenty of us are not so fragile we cannot kill an animal and butcher it up for dinner. I have done it with birds, fish, and rabbit. In my opinion, it is preferable as the meat is obviously fresher and tastier.
If you don't have the stomach for it, I have no problem with all of you eating rabbit food instead. I, however, will stick to eating the rabbits (and hey, more for me!).
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"The arrogant attitude displayed by many posters, assuming without question that "subhuman" species can be exploited at will without concern for their suffering, is what will see the end of the human race on this planet - the shame is that we will destroy many other innocent species on the way."
Lol. Yes, we are almost as bad as those arrogant lions who exploit the 'sub-lion' antelopes at will without concern for their suffering. Have you given those carnivores (therefore worse than us omnivores) a stern talking to yet?
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I've been a vegetarian for about fifteen years and although I've become quite accustomed to ridicule, it never ceases to amaze me how critical people can be of a lifestyle chosen (in my case) for ethical reasons. We (veg*ns) are always accused of forcing our views on others and yet in my experience it's always been the other way around.
People who eat meat seem to enjoy belittling our beliefs and making ridiculous comments such as "Humans are designed to eat meat" (I and many others are living proof this is clearly not the case) or "Plants feel pain too" (They are devoid of a nervous system aside for a start). Perhaps (omnivorous) people find it easier to make fun of veg*anism than confront the possibility that how they choose to live is wrong and causes unnecessary suffering to others.
I can't speak for other vegetarians but when I look at meat, I see an animal that has suffered and died needlessly and it is extremely difficult at times not to feel anger towards the person that has (indirectly) caused that pain by eating/buying the meat.
I'm sure there are many people who would love to pick apart my lifestlye by highlighting the things I don't do to help people (or animals for that matter) but I do a heck of a lot more than most and surely it's better to at least do something rather than eat/live how I like without a second thought as to who or what may be suffering as a result. If I dedicated my life to helping children in developing countries I've no doubt I'd be criticised for not prioritising the needs of people in this country.
This Christmas I'll be doing my bit for animals and humans alike (as well as the environment) and that involves (happily) avoiding the traditional turkey dinner. If others want to ignore the ethical issues surrounding their choice of meal then I hope at least they will opt for free range or organic meat/dairy which is far from ideal but it's better than nothing I suppose.
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I can't believe people are bullying one another over an individuals choice of lifestyle. I'm a vegetarian, I don't believe it's right for anybody to preach to anyone else what is right and wrong to eat. I don't eat meat because I like to think that I'm stopping the suffering of another living thing. What's more, I certainly wouldn't eat my dog so I don't see it as fair that I should eat a cow/sheep/bird/whatever. That said, there is no universal rule book and so I don't think anyone is right or wrong in their eating habits. Each to their own I say, I've got no qualms with any meat eaters (in fact I'm the only veggie in my family/close friends), they riddicule me and I riddicule them back, "meat is murder" etc. I've felt better since I've gone veggie though and I don't miss meat, in fact I think curries are probably nicer without meat.
I dont think theres anything that can be done that will ever promote worldwide vegeteriansim, unless theres another outbreak (God forbid) of something like B.S.E...then again there could be killer carrot syndrome and then I could pop me clogs.
Stop the bullying/high-horsing though, no need whatsoever.
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this is the first time I read this blog, and I find this very interesting, It's totally true that the world has no shortage of food, we are using this food to feed the cows and other animals that live in filthy conditions and die in the most horrendous way you can imagine, believe me I have seen it live!!! I come form south America where at least animals are eating grass and have a good live before dying and here in US animals are fed with other animals corpses that they make into a powder or concentrated food to fatten up chickens and cow and pigs... this animals that we are consuming are less than good for us. i am a carnivour and can't help to eat meat because is everywhere!!! but after reading this I'm gonna try my best to stop and so should everyone... it's cruel, it's bad for you (eating to much red meat will hurt your joints by the accumulation of uric acid causing horrible pain and a condition called "gout") we must stop and maybe all that corn that we are feeding to animals may be shipped to africa or central america or wherever it's needed to help ease the hunger that's affecting this people... check out this movie: Food inc. and you will find out what's going on, what are we paying for when we buy food and what we need to do to stop this and be more earth friendly, maybe that way we can have a more stable world and a few more years on earth.
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PM Gordon Brown really get a grip on things and tell Chancellor of the Exchequer Alistair Darling that he has got it all wrong, private motor vehicles DO NOT contribute the most to MMCC, and that if he wants to get the votes of the drivers in the forthcoming General Election he should stick an eco-tax on the beef farmers as they contribute 20% of the worlds MMCC gases.
But since when did politicians ever do the right thing? These days they don't even do the honorable thing and fall on their swords or resign when their misdeeds like adultery and expense account fiddles are made public.
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"Plants feel pain too" (They are devoid of a nervous system aside for a start)"
Perhaps you should research your food more thoroughly? Neurotransmitters exist in plants and there is now a plant neurobiology field. I have no idea if they can feel pain, but they certainly do have a nervous system.
Very basic overview: http://ds9.botanik.uni-bonn.de/zellbio/AG-Baluska-Volkmann/plantneuro/neuroview.php
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Many of the posters above have stated that they will eat meat because it is "natural" for humans to do so. By natural I am going to assume you mean, Humans evolved eating meat, therefore meat is required for attain certain nutrients.
First, the jump from "humans evolved eating meat" to "meat is required" is a faulty one. Humans evolving eating meat, does not necessitate that the nutrients the evolved to require eating meat only ever come from meat. There is no particular reason that these nutrients would not be found elsewhere, and in fact the only nutrient that I know of that is currently considered to be in questionable quantities in a vegan diet is vitatmin B12.
Second, if you want to argue from a "what humans evolved to eat" perspective then you better stop eating dairy and grain. Both of these foods presupposed some sort of agriculture, be it farming or animal husbandry, that humans developed at some point later to their inception. Meaning, if you want to eat what is "natural" for humans then you better start only eat meat, fruits, nuts, mushrooms, and other foods that would have been foraged up by pre-agrarian humans.
Unfortunately, as has been abundantly pointed out, this diet is no longer possible. The wild stocks of any of these foods, if harvested intensively to feed the globe, would would be, or already are, depleted. And to grown any of these foods takes a significantly larger amount of resources to do then either grains or vegetables. Therefore, if you want to eat a diet that is actually physically possible to maintain, you have to take steps to drastically increase your grain and vegetable intake, and drastically reduce your intake of these other options (which are oddly enough now considered luxuries...).
This argument of course only deals with the ethics of meat eating as it impacts the physical world, and not the lives of the animals themselves. I leave aside the issue of whether killing another being purely for your own pleasure (the taste of meat?) is a justifiable act.
So ultimately, many posters are right when the say: The big problem is the population. But what are they suggesting when they say this? It is true if their were less people to eating meat then meat might be physically viable. However, either they mean we should drastically reduce our population, (but how? mass killing?_ or they mean that other people should stop eating meat so they can keep eating it (inconsistent with their own beliefs, no?). The former is not solvable in the short term (not ethically) and the latter is not an option. Alternatively I can think of a way of drastically reducing the meat eating population, stop eating meat.
Just claiming that the environmental problems of meat eating are just symptomatic of the larger problem of population does not remove the fact that it is still a problem. Further, if we were to stop eating meat, then perhaps we would have time to then solve the problem of population.
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I say we all return to hunting for our means. This may lead to job loses in the retail sector but think of it this way. Food shop workers can become gunsmiths, after a while only the most persistent meat eaters will be able to catch their prey, it will lead to the rise in health though fitness, we will start to waste less food due to the prospect of having to go out on another hunt. After a while most carnivores will turn to growing their own vegetables. If you insist on living in the city then the parks can be turned into allotments for all. this will add a certain beautification element to the whole prospect.
imagine if this worked.
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I have to agree with post 75 `s comment about population control. It is the ONLY thing thats going to make a difference.
The argument about eating meat is a moot point, even if you did manage to get the western world to stop eating meat (which you will not unless mother nature forces the issue) the increasing population would soon overwhealm the non-meat food supplies.
From what I understand our fish stocks are decimated with some species of tuna about to go extinct.
It seems to me that the huge elephant in the room is the population explosion which no one seems to want to face, nothing else comes near in terms of the damage to the planet.
Politicians however will not go near this issue because at the end of the day everyone wants to have kids. The wish to propogate our genes is by far the most selfish act we can burden the planet with at this point in time. Not only are we adding to the toll but you also have to think what kind of life we will be inflicting on our children themselves.
It is not a human right to have children, especially when they are the ones (not the parents) who will have to deal with the mess.
I know this sounds harsh but I believe if a country can not sustain itself and people are starving then richer countries should provide for them in return for them not having children. At the end of the day having ten starving children is ten times more cruel then one. This also applies to people in our own country, the argument is that we need to have lots of young people to look after the old people, but obviously this can not go on forever,at some stage we will reach breaking point. People are living longer and longer with ever mounting costs. Is it fair that we can expect to live to over 90 with the young looking after us?
I`m sorry if all this sounds harsh but thats how life is, I believe it would be less cruel to deal with these issues head on rather then wait for the turmoil ahead. Although I know the politicians will never go near this issue.
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Is it wrong for killer whales to eat baby seals? No, they are carnivores. I defend my right as an omnivore to include some meat in my diet as it is as natural for me to do so as it is for killer whales to eat baby seals. We humans are as much a part of the ecosystem as any other omnivore.
And yes of course as intelligent beings we should minimize pain and suffering to the animals we raise and care for when it is time to kill them for consumption. For 99.9% of their lives they are cared for and protected from fear, want, and suffering, which is far better than what many people get today in some parts of the world.
Yes we should eat more fish, and watch our red meat intake for our own health.
Yes of course we need to watch the impact on the environment of our farming practices, and use fertilizers responsibly and pesticides even more carefully, and herbicides only when absolutely necessary, such as eradicating harmful invasive non-native species. Dandelions and crab grass do NOT fall into that category! I never use herbicides. I did not bring more children into this world than I can feed and care for through my own labor. I recylce and I vote. We shall enjoy our Christmas Turkey and Ham and Kippers (and stuffing, mashed potatoes, cranberry sauce, cucumber salad, pumpkin pie, etc. etc.) guilt free!
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Number 75, would you be willing to be one of those 25% of the population that you were hoping the swine flu virus would wipe out? Or would you volunteer a member of your family? Over-population is definitely an issue but so is over-consumption. Educating people to the benefits of making socially conscious decisions is surely far more appropriate than the sort of venomous rubbish that people like you have to offer. Incidentally I have 2 children, we only eat meat twice a week (free range and locally produced) and as a family we do everything we can to lessen our impact on the environment. All that and we're catholic!
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It is easier than taxing meat to reduce consumption- just remove the massive subsidies that are currently given to the meat industry so that it can survive. It is estimated that a McDonalds hamburger would cost about 20 pounds without the subsidies...
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"Why do people find it so hard to give up meat?"
Because most people will always put their stomachs ahead of such conscience as they possess.
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At the end of the day we eat meat purely because the energy we gain from fruit and vegetables is not enough. Our bodies cannot digest cellulose, I think suggesting we all cut out meat is a ridiculous idea as even if we do the amount of land we have will still not be enough to grow enough food!!
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Silly quote from the article:
“I am sure lots of us carnivores would be a lot less keen on our mixed grills if we had to look all the animals that go into them in the eye before they were served up on our plates.”
I fish, and when I get home I sometimes have to give the pike or perch a quick sharp wack to the head before I gut them, clean them, fry them and eat them. Walleye are a particular beautiful fish, their hexagonal eyes are haunting and yes I look into them. I fish responsibly, obeying all local conservations laws and limits. And enjoy eating them!
Dangerously Irresponsible quote from the article:
“We would need [food production] a lot less if people stopped eating meat because it would require so much less land.”
Only very temporarily true. Problem is, some of the poorest countries on earth with the most “challenged” ecologies STILL have the fastest growth rates in the world. Why? Because we in the West feed them and give them medicine. Eventually, they will outgrow our capacity to keep facilitating their irresponsible over-reproduction, and then there will be horrible wars and starvation and disease and suffering for all living things. The third world MUST curb their population growth, or nature WILL do it for them, and it will be decidedly unpleasant! Eating meat or not eating meat by those who do not over reproduce and who grow more food than we need will NOT affect this even a tiny bit.
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I gave up meat back in 2003 after I got food poisoning. I have never looked back. I don't preach to meat eaters about not eating it, but so many meat eaters ask me "What do you eat", "how do you get all your proteins and vitamins?" they tell me "get some meat into you". The only way to get attitudes to change is to make people aware of what the animal goes through before it's death, when people try and get me to eat meat I normally ask them if they could kill an animal, the common response, if they are hungry yes, but I would highly doubt they would. A lot of people you see in super markets treat meat as an object rather than something that was once a living creature. I have no problems with eating meat, that's there decision, just don't try and enforce it on me, I gave it up initially due to the food poisoning, but since then it has become more of an issue about how the animals are treated. I think earlier in the year if you breed cattle in the same way as they would if they were in the wild then the quality would be better, plus there would be fewer emissions from the farms. The problem is, it costs money, I mean money is far more important than a climate we can survive in isn't it?
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"It is good healthy food. Eating meat is not contributing to the destruction of the planet."
YES IT IS. This is just one example of some of the ignorance on display here. Of course it is bad for the planet, very bad in fact. You have to feed an animal (on average) ten times the amount of food as to which it provides us. Add on to that the transportation of that food to the animal and it is easy to see the damages. Also add onto that the methane production of all of these animals that are 'artificially' bred and kept alive purely to be killed and eaten...
just think about it a little bit people, just scratch a little under the surface every now and then.
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There are always contributors on these pages who's idea of an intelligent comment is to ridicule and demean others beliefs and values, but 'Royalalbertdock' really takes the cake. Fancy ridiculing someone for rescuing animals injured and abused at the hands of other human beings. I think I can safely assume that he/she doesn't have a house full of adopted children himself. Very pathetic indeed.
He/she obviously loves his/her meat and has no animal welfare leaning (shame), but the point of this discussion is about what is best for our environment which seems to have been forgotten. Even if you don't go veggie, please cut down on your meat intake. It will help the planet and as a huge bonus will limit the number of animals suffering.
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I was vegan for 8 years and then my body started to tell me it didn't like soy. I also began to think long and hard about the "effectiveness" of a vegan diet. The thing is, while I appreciate this article it is information that is well known and has been well known since the 80's or earlier. The problem with vegan diets is that while it addresses, sort of, the issue of ethical treatment of animals, it completely negates the bigger picture. That Tofurkey is a mega-processed chunk of soy and whatnot, made in a factory in who knows where. Soy is taking a huge toll on the planet as well. Deforestation hurts animals as much as factory farming does! Then we have the human issues to think about. In America, we put farmers in Mexico out of work with our cheap corn and scorn them when they have to come up here to find work. Corn is vegan, but is it ethical? My solution to these problems, because I want very much to live with thoughtfulness and intentionality, is to eat as locally as possible. I live in Washington state in America, the climate is very similar to England's. We have co-ops and farmers markets and all sorts. While I can't claim to be totally local, I'm doing my best. I can go to the farm where I get my eggs and meet the chickens! Try doing that with tofu. In short, the trick is to develop a relationship with the food that you eat, the region where you live, etc.
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People are funny - they care about good looking animals but not ugly ones.
This possibly explains the popularity by animal lovers of "I'm a celeb get me out of here and into Panto"
It also explains why public opinion (whatever that mesns) induced Government to introduce ever tougher / better animal treatment on farms(which I approve of) unfortunately the side effect of this is as that farmers have to pass on increased costs the same public buy cheaper foreign meats where the animals were treated so badly the RSPCA would prosecute
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I know it's difficult to completely give up meat. I have a proposal: 10 Days Vegan Diet Challenge. The idea is to eat only vegan diet for 10 days in a month. It doesn't have to be 10 days straight, you can spread them out a little bit if you wish. For starters, try 6 days a month. This will decrease 1/3 of your meat consumption. You don't need to give up meat habit and it's also good for the planet. Why not give it a go. I've been doing this for years, I am able to keep my youthful look and enjoy good health at the same time.
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I applaud anyone who consciously considers the social, environmental, and ethical implications of their food choices. In the end, it may be less important which choice we make than that we consciously choose.
It is not necessary to abandon meat consumption entirely. In fact, this may be an equally harmful process if not done with care. I was once an avid boca-burger-eating vegetarian who vigorously condemned my omnivorous friends... only to learn later that much of the soy consumed in this country is grown in Brazil on what was once rain forest. The carbon footprint (and total land use!) of grilled tofu can be higher than a locally raised grass fed hamburger...
As for the ethics of killing animals for food, I believe that those who strongly and universally oppose meat eating as a cruel, unethical practice are probably grappling (consciously or not) with a deep fear of death. In fact, without death, life would not be possible. A few weeks watching the compost pile at a small diversified family farm makes this connection clear, as chickens killed by predators are buried deep in the decomposing bedding straw and manure, only to turn into fertile soil spread on the very pastures the chickens, sheep, pigs, and cows graze in following years.
I believe the answer instead is to know our food as well as possible. For some of us, that will mean growing it ourselves. For others, it will mean shaking the hand of the farmer who hatched, raised, and yes - slaughtered the chicken. For all of us, it should mean being able to look upon the land where our food was grown.
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Ye gods! It's like a school playground full of puerile name calling.
People on here continually talk about there being too many people. If so, there's nothing you can do about that in the short term, short of mass murder (by who?), but people can clearly change their diet to vegetarian overnight if they choose as I did. When I was 15 I decided to stop having sugar in my tea and coffee and after 3 weeks I did and I've never had it since. Neither of these things makes me 'better' but it does show that most people could change their behaviour if they choose to do so. This of course is the crux of the matter. If there's one thing my life has taught me is that, even when your own premature death is involved, you won't change your behaviour unless you want to. That has to come from inner change in your own perspective and if that happens it's very easy, though getting to that point may take a week, a year or a lifetime. It may never happen.
As to people making such fatuous statements as "We are designed to eat meat" and other puffed up statements, I'd just say "Grow up". It takes very little research to see that human beings are clearly omnivores - we can choose to eat meat, or not, as lifelong vegetarians clearly show (I've not eaten meat for 24 years so it's clearly unnecessary to a human diet for almost everyone) Ridiculous statements about vegans such as "usually unhealthy pasty looking things who need supplements such as vitamns in their diet" are about as relevant as referring disparagingly to "Vast numbers of clinically obese meat-eaters".
Also, I find it odd that meat eaters (and I was one for 27 years) seem to talk about the killing of animals with little qualms, but as others have pointed out, may find the idea of eating their own dog, cat or hamster unthinkable - eating my first pet (Tiger the tabby cat) certainly would have been to me and I never mulled over my inconsistencies. A restaurant here in Brighton was forced to close because a campaign of 'disgusted' people, many of whom said they were meat eaters, complained of a restaurant serving squirrel. Even the guy from the RSPCA said, in effect, "If you're going to eat meat then eating a pest is a good idea". It still closed. Would meat eaters on here eat dogs or cats? I personally cannot comprehend the logic that says a restaurant can serve a cow but not a dog, yet I've never seen dog on the menu in the UK. Why is that? Just wondering. Maybe it's illegal over here ...
Finally, anyone who thinks that the modern mass production of cheap meat is not damaging to the environment really needs to get acquainted with the facts, something that is thankfully easy to do with a little effort. The 'damage' resulting from a vegetarian diet is imagined, whereas that caused by our obsession with meat is actually already well documented.
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Really, ditching meat and eventually becoming vegan is one of the most rewarding and simple things I've ever done, it's something we're all going to have to do sooner or later, I did it while I have the luxury of choice. One thing that's hard to stomach is the attitudes of people who haven't made the choice yet, it used to really annoy me, call it the zeal of the convert.
The more I think about it though, no one likes to be told what to do, particularly as these days, there's a lot that we're all going to have to do differently and it seems to be coming from all angles.
For those who are sticking with meat out of spite towards PETA and every whiny lefty vegetarian weirdo that's ever inspired you with nothing but contempt; ditching meat solely for the sake of the climate or only for your own health does little for the vegetarian 'cause' at all. It's really an empty victory (at best) for us as it's done out of self preservation not compassion. Do it for whatever reason you want, as long as you do it soon (or now), we can pick up on the morals and social benefits again after we're (all) done saving the planet.
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I see the vegans here are quietly forgetting the increased incidence of dementia amongst people who don't eat meat or fish.
They may want to be an ongoing burden to family and the state as they dribble over the sides of their chairs wet from their own urine, give me a quick heart attack anyday.
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Whatever consumes your life becomes your religion. (environmentalism, vegetarianism, etc) A lack of God in ones life will cause an emptiness, and people try to fill that emptiness by creating a religion out of something else. The bible even predicted that this would happen, as it has predicted countless other things. Today many people are putting their "man made" religions about God and above human life! Talk about majoring on the minor things in life! To find a pattern for ethical living, we must look to the very creator of truth and ethics. God! But even the pursuit of God can become a religion. Interestingly enough, Christianity is the only "religion" that is not a religion! That is because we cannot "work" our way to God by religious activities. Only in Christianity did God (Jesus) come to earth on our behalf and pay the FULL price to redeem us back to God. We can do nothing to earn God's favor in our own power. We only need to accept the truth that Jesus died to pay the penalty for our sins and rose again. Because of this, we don't need to try to earn a way to heaven on our own. Trying to "save the animals" or the environment, (or whatever) might make someone "feel good" for a short time, but that religion won't get us anywhere. The purpose of our lives is to find a relationship with God through Jesus, and to help others to hear the good news about Jesus. Any other pursuit in life will prove to be utterly meaningless. Just look at how many very wealthy people could never find fulfillment in life, but when they found Jesus, their life had great meaning. Look at how many atheists tried to find faults in the bible, and after reading it, could not deny its truth, and became believers themselves. When we get off on tangents in life that take us away from God, we are missing out on the whole meaning of life itself!!!
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i have been a Vegan for 19 months now,,10 years before that i was a vegetarian, to begin with it can be hard and until more supermarkets offer more in the way of Vegan foods it will be hard to entice people to try to be Vegan even if they want to! I hope on a daily basis that people can be woken up to the incredible suffering we inflict upon animals and in our western society it is all needless suffering but i am constantly upset by the "I don't want to know" reply i get when i try and help people see what they are responsible for,, i fear we are still nothing more than a savage primitive species with a few of us enlightened enough to strive to be gentle and thoughtful to the living creatures around us, most just don't care,,,very sad :(
elle
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Turkeys are not just for Christmas, they're for life! Yum Yum. Gobble Gobble. And no I didn't 'evolve' into a meat eater- that's the way God created me. Along with a whole lot of hunter gatherers. It seems to me that such a silly discussion could only go on in modern Britain with it's band of new age,tree hugging, self righteous mother earth saving ( where's the next demo? )PC eco delusionists. And I don't give a toss about my carbon footprint because MMGW is all one big con. And please don't insult my intelligence by trying to draw an equivalence between the human race and animals. That's when you become really ridiculous and laughable.Try selling that nonsense to Stephen Hawkins - Albert Einstein isn't around!
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Adolf Hitler wasn't vegetarian. No idea why everyone thinks he was!
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Here's some food for thought (forgive the pun): Will you eat a mute and paralyzed living thing?? No?? Then lay off the veggies, too. Most of you don't realise plants are considered as living.Just because they move to slowly for you to see does not mean they do not. Look up phototropism, geotropism...and a couple of other 'tropisms' and you'll find out that they change colour depending on the amount of sunlight they get (like we do) and they move towards light when they grow (phototropism). So, imagine if you could hear them squeal as you slice and dice them up...Quit the hypocricy. Eat meat! LOL!
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I'm a vegetarian who has chosen not to have children. The human race on the whole is far to selfish to consider giving up things with we think we 'have a right to', be that treating animals appallingly before we kill them, or reproducing to the point that the plant is way over populated, and we can't feed our offspring. Whats the point in bring kids into a world that we are destroying. I take comfort from the fact that the plant and hopefully a good number of animal species will still be around long after we've wiped ourselves out.
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Let's focus more on not releasing CO2 from burning human bodies through meaningless wars first. Then we can focus on meat.
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Not wasting food, or not eating meat, will not avert the possibility of starvation, for a very simple reason.
From the Stone Age to the present day, human starvation has never been caused by food shortages.
Starvation is always ultimately a man-made disaster. Wars, bad economic policies, mismanagement of resources, political tyranny - these are what have always caused starvation, not the inability of farmers to produce more food.
This is true today for both first and third world nations. In America, it is the lack of a social safety net that allows people to fall into poverty and degeneration. In Africa and India, racism, classism, despotism, exploitation and war are to blame - why nations with such enormous natural resources see their people starve year after year.
Even if the world had a population many times as large as it does today - in the tens of billions - we could still cultivate enough land and produce enough food to feed everyone a good meal three times a day, with meat. We don't even struggle to feed six billion. People don't starve because there isn't the food, they starve because they do not have economic opportunities or physical access to food.
To put this in more graphic, down-to-earth terms - the leftovers that you don't chuck into the disposal after Thanksgiving aren't going to be feeding hungry Africans, whether or not you buy or eat them.
The solution to the problem isn't to abstain. The West must develop a far-sighted means of ensuring social stability and a ladder back up in society. Developing nations, too, must build not only economic potential, but also stable polities and a culture of law and reason. This last thing occurs within the mind of every developing nation citizen.
It took the West three thousand years to develop law, order, and stability. We didn't have the UN helping us. It was a slow and often very brutal process. Ultimately, charity and international orgazations keep the status quo going - they prevent events being forced, the Bastilles of the developing world.
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The problem, as I see it, is not whether you eat meat or not. The earth is going down the pan and we're all along for the ride.
So I suggest eat what you like. All those who feel the need to ridicule others and berate their beliefs, hoping to encourage them to change to their way of thinking, need to see the bigger picture.
We are all doomed!
Also those who argue that you wouldn't eat a pet and that we are brought up to believe that it is acceptable to eat farm animals are deluded. It's purly due to the benefits that so called pets bring that stopped them ending on the plate.
Cats stoped rodents eating the grain and dogs were used for hunting and protection. As it is cats and dogs became domesticated and the reason people are repulsed by the thought of eating them is because over time they have evolced to be part of the family.
If a cow could catch a mouse and could be trained to use a litter box, it might be less likely to end up as a stake and instead be called dave and get to sit on the couch watching X-factor.
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So now Mr. Ethical is no longer living ethically? He could only survive for a year doing so? What a joke. Who sets the ethical standards? I am so sick of these so called progressive liberals who haven't a clue as to what they are talking about and fail to submit real viable alternatives to what they think is wrong with the world. Try feeding the world's population without the protein from animals and fish. Oh well logic and sanity does not prevail in the wonderland of fiction in which these garbage spouting morons live.
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Gosh, don't people get defensive when the bastillions of their lives are threatened, or even questioned? Who'd have thought that suggesting that eating meat might not be (a) essential for life, (b) ethically sound, and (c) good for the planet would lead to such a lot of very angry replies.
I'm vegetarian. Have been for 25 years. And dairy-free for the last 4 years. I don't try to persuade anyone else to eat as I do. I don't criticise anyone for what they choose to eat - these things are down to personal choice. But I'd like to be given the same respect by some omnivores.
Just one point though. Why on earth is there so much talk of Quorn?? It's not the only option for vegetarians and vegans, you know. It disagrees with some people. It's heavily processed. And it's most definitely not vegan. There are many many far nicer alternatives to meat.
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This is absotively ridonculous! I mean why should I have to give up my chosen lifestyle because people are uncontrollably breeding? I know how about this: use condoms! I mean where does it end? 6 billion now then what? 10 billion? 20? 40? How many people are enough? When is enough's enough, exactly? 200 billion? Is anyone even thinking about this or we just continue to ignore it? The less people there are in total the smaller 1/6th of that number is starving right? Let's get on with it, now shall we? Chop chop!
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#36 Karen
Personally as a meat eater the fact that i have before killed gutted and skinned somthing i ate gives me the moral legitimacy in doing so.
If you eat wild game you know that it has had a good life up until it was shot as where someone who eats meat from the supermarket is reponsible for the deaths of animals in an abatoir.
Now if i had a choice i'd choose to be killed and eaten by the hunter rather than the supermarket shopper.
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Yes meat is murder...
tasty tasty murder
yummm
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Quote: "An ethical man should be able to stomach dispatching his own supper or should decline to dine upon it, shouldn't he?" I wrote.
By that logic, if one is unable to stomach cutting into a human skull with a surgical saw, one should decline to undergo brain surgery.
I've never understood when people complain that meat-eaters ought to be able to look their lunch in the eye, or take part in killing, gutting, skinning or preparing it, or else their eating it is wrong. Do we measure the rightness of an act by how personally squeamish we are about performing it?
I get freaked out in the garden if I find myself within three feet of a slug or a worm. I probably couldn't stomach the maintenance of a vegetable garden. I still eat carrots. (I haven't touched meat in sixteen years, incidentally, and it has nothing to do with whether I was willing to kill an animal. On the other hand, there are many human beings I could GLADLY despatch but I have yet to resort to cannibalism.)
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"And I am sure lots of us carnivores would be a lot less keen on our mixed grills if we had to look all the animals that go into them in the eye before they were served up on our plates."
Really? I don't recall reading much about vegans in my history books.
My problem with vegans is they only offer one solution, omitting all animals from your diet. So what if I buy some land out on the country and raise my own chickens for saluter, am I still being unethical? What if I catch my own fish in a nearby stream, am I still being unethical?
I'n my eyes I am only doing what my ancestors did for thousands of years, or am I being inhuman?
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Meat production needs to change significantly to reflect the nature of the terrain where it is raised. For instance, in the wetter parts of the UK the most economical crop is grass (wheat is impossible in most of West Wales) and that is best converted to human food via animals. Meat from land cleared out of rain forest should be banned, or at least taxed heavily. In other words, meat would become a luxury as it would come only from areas where more important crops such as wheat, fruit or vegetables could not be grown. Feeding animals fish protein or wheat should be avoided.
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Please, please, please do not perpetrate to the " Hitler was a Vegetarian" Myth. It not only contributes to the victimisation of Vegetarians worldwide , but damages the reputation of the BBC as a reputable source.
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I think it is time someone defended the vegetables. Why do we presume they have less rights than animals, just because we don't relate to them as easily. We really should stop eating them, it's cruel how we boil them, roast them or fry them without even ensuring they are dead. It's much kinder to eat a dead animal.
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Mmmmmm, wonderful, tasty, glorious meat. I am a meat eater and I plan to do so for a very, very long time. I will however, add some vegetables as a side, to help lessen the amount of meat I consume. That's about as far as I am willing to go. However, if you choose to not eat meat, great. You do your part, I'll do mine, deal? :)
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One day there will be not enough food to sustain the population. People will be so crammed in to vast cities because of the lack of land available, illnesses will be able to spread more rapidly than ever before.
Many hundreds of thousands will perish. Eventually the natural balance will be restored.
This IS the future unless we change the way we think and live.
If you think that not eating beef will make a difference to this then go ahead. However, I believe that the rate at which people reproduce needs to drop to have any impact.
Fewer people = less meat being eaten
Fewer people = less cars on the road
Fewer people = less resources being used
We can go on all night with this...
People argue that it is their "right" to have as many children as they want. The same argument would be the "right" to live in a big house with a car like the guy next door. We "deserve" these things because we all work so hard.
Nobody deserves anything in this life. Your life is no more or less important than anyone else on this planet. The fact you're reading these words means you have access to a computer that's connected to the internet. There are people without electricity and running water trying to simply survive the night out there...do they deserve that level of life?
Imagine all the people, living for today...
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This whole discussion of ethical vegan vs eating meat is quite silly and foolish in my option, what vegans fail to understand is that meat such as beef, pork, chicken and fish play a vital role in our food chain wither you choose to eat it or not and even if you ban the eating of beef it would lead to fewer vegetables because the manure from cows and some other farm animals is used to fertilize land that grow crops such as wheat and vegetables. (Just in case you didn't know you can't use human wast as fertilizer because it would create ecoli) so vegans leave the meat eaters alone and be greatful for the sustainable farming practice we have because without it you wouldn't have the luxury of being a vegan.
I also realize some people feel it's cruel to kill a farm animal but its no more cruel then a lion killing a Zebra for food or a big fish eating a smaller fish. What make humans superior is that we are not only omnivores but we don't have hunt for our food any more because we have developed a sustainable method though farming to meet all our needs can work well the balance of nature as long as the farming methods are done properly, but those who think in there infinite wisdom we no longer need to eat meat actually run the risk of disturbing the balance of nature.
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@ ledders
It is a human right to eat meat, therefore it is a human right to have as many children as you can afford to do so (I do not condone having children using taxpayer's money). It would be ironic if the state imposed a "number of children" law, whilst still allowing the human right to free speech, which I think is far less fundamental that the first two.
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Thank you for this column, Ethical Man!
I have tried many times to become properly vegetarian. It is quite hard for some of us who really seem to need meat, however rarely.
What is not difficult at all is reducing how often we eat meat, and how much of it we eat at a time.
It is also not difficult is training yourself to finish the calories you do buy (which is how you should be thinking of them, as energy went into their production & distribution), and only really buying those calories you intend to consume. (In other words, either order the smaller pizza or make sure you finish the leftovers.)
What is utterly vital is to teach your young children not to waste food, that it hurts the earth & animals when they waste. Because some of the worst food waste occurs while they are at school & with friends.
A healthy attitude to food includes eating a reasonable amount: many young people develop & unhealthy aversion to food, suspicion of it. That in turn leads to a whole lot of other problems, including binging, and drinking or smoking (to dull the hunger pangs). All these different kinds of imbalances result in wasteful eating habits later on.
Thank you for this excellent article. Enjoy your holiday meals: you can always make up for them by reducing consumption in the days that follow -- just make sure you don't actually throw out food that is certainly good enough to eat: freezing 2 ounces of leftover sausage or pudding may feel "virtuous" yet in fact what would be really virtuous is swallowing them (least energy used) and then eating less the next 48 hours.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I think it's a mistake to make vegetarianism into a kind of separate culture. I was a radical vegan (the no honey variety) for a few years, and I felt really virtuous and I didn't miss meat at all, but I did find the cooking part a challenge. Now I think the vegan/carnivore dichotomy is a false dilemma. It's not a choice of all meat or no meat. I now eat small amounts of meat (preferably fish) at most once a day, just to focus the evening meal, and I can feel just fine about it. In effect, I'm really mostly vegan, but no longer treating it as a kind of monastic rule. Personally, I think it's the way to go.
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You must be joking with the extreme tone of the story! Oh where to begin??
Vitamin B12 intake is such an issue with most vegans. Where do vegans get theirs? From a pill containing animal sources? Sorry, but synthesized B12 isn't cleanly absorbed by the body because it hasn't gone through the carbon cycle.
You've cited why so many go hungry. Biofuels isn't an entirely truthful answer when one considers that genetically modified corn not approved for human consumption is very commonly used in production of ethanol. (I live 7 miles from an ethanol fuel plant in the presently snow covered tundra of America's Upper Midwest, powered primarily with wind, no less!) Something else to consider, ALL these mouths to be fed. This is where at least some standard of birth control is desperately needed around the globe and where China is proven correct. If the Church doesn't change their opinion on this, War and Nature shall make their presence known at some point.
Then I view the video. Tofu? You should seriously read Jon Thomas'es book "Young Again" where PHG, a primary ingredient in soy has numerous uses including a rather effective fish poison! Canola (appropriately named rapeseed as it rapes life) is far, far worse and I consistently refuse foods I know are prepared with it, including most things from McDonalds including their fish and chicken nuggets. (admittedly, the use of that garbage in frying almost converts me) About 6 minutes into it, the cows come into play. Why are cattle given grains? It fattens them. The same sort of grainy diet such as certain cereals for breakfast does the same to man. Again, even with a vegan diet, one will be limited if health is of real concern.
Even with all this, I will concede that reducing meat products is a good thing, but I need the proper proteins they provide. I will also remain aware of the food waste and encourage others to become aware of this too. I made a saying earlier this year; "If you waste enough food, your waist will likely shrink." but waste not, want not is more appropriate, I reckon.
Finally, consider the developing world. The Chinese are eating far more than ever. Obesity is becoming more common in the Orient. Even if you're becoming a vegan for ethical reasons, can you stomach what others are putting into theirs? They're now enjoying more meat consumption.
I will agree to reduce my meat portions, but not for the planet as I cannot be assured that the billions of other mouths will quickly follow suit. What happens when the volcanoes spew out tons of CO2? That sure puts a huge dent in the carbon credit nonsense being dreamt of, or do these whiz kid governments plan on taxing these Acts of God somehow? God I've love a followup on just that single point. For now, I plan on remaining the successful carnivore wind energy student I am.
Good Day!
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Not quite sure how contributors to this debate can quote that it a human's devine right to eat meat. You often hear "...we're animals, all animals eat meat...". Why don't those people write down all those animals that eat meat (especially red meat). If that is too difficult, why not write down which animal (clue: it's a very strong nobel animal) you think is the closest to us in nature and why not write down what food they eat. Why not write down what animals are physically the largest and strongest in the natural world.
After you have the answers to these questions, please come back and tell me again how you can say it a human's devine right.
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Quite frankly, this kind of piece is a bit arrogant and self-serving. The author himself must have a problem about consuming meat products or butchering his own meat. I do not. Humans are omnivores, and if the writer cannot deal with that fact, then he is deluding himself and others in a self-righteous manner. Like I said, it's his problem, not mine.
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Dude,what are your shoes made of ?
Are your kids goin' barefoot ?
Camshaft
Dallas,Texas
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Oh dear, the moderators don't seem to like the fact that Vegans suffer more from dementia than meat/fish eaters. Deleting my posts will not change the facts.
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I am so sick of "ethical" people trying to make me and people like me feel guilty for climate change! Firstly I don't believe that climate change is manmade and therefore there is nothing I can do about it, secondly I think the so called consequences of climate change are completely overdramatic (global warming has happened before far worse than this, it will happen again, and guess what we've survived it many times and so have the polar bears!!), and lastly but most importantly; even if global warming was a direct and whole response to us... it is completely wrong to ask the individual to do something about it!
The government is trying to guilt us into thinking we are responsible and we have to do things... how much of an effect are we supposed to make? with the way things are now it is too much to ask families and average people to dramatically change their lives when the rest of society isn't as it puts us at a disadvantage. the only way to get the whole of society to live "greener" is for the government to act. They're the ones that have to bring policies and make arrangements for other energy sources etc so that we can all happiliy go along with it together. They know that's the only way, so why are they still shifting the responsibility onto us? MONEY.
Enough of the guilt! We cannot make a difference. Only the government can. So people like the ethical man should learn to be more ethical and put blame where blame is deserved; on the people with the power to make a huge difference, and those people are the government and the industries, not the average joe.
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As a Vegetarian I agree with many aspects of what has been said, BUT, I am a vegetarian through choice, and believe that the vegan argument is ethically bankrupt. amoral and some what murderous. The idea that all living life is equal to human life ultimately does not square with the thoughts of family, protection, human dignity or cultural diversity. In short Veganism is a middle class indulgence, for those that advocate without thought for others, class or ethics.
If my understanding is correct, vegans not only object to animals being eaten, but being harmed? the idea that death is death and murder is murder is equal in equal measure for both humans and non-humans.
not withstanding the over consumption of the "west" or "Developed" countries. the poor need food, they need protection of arable crops, human health and comfort. The people that are afflicted with pest infestation, need to protect their crops, diseases spread by living things need to be curbed, which often means the death of the creatures, through destruction of their habitate. The comfort of the peoples that do not live within the western Culture require that the kill animals to stay warm and feed.
Lets celebrate diversity, lets eat sustainably, lets be one with nature.
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I spent a few years umming and aahing, feeling increasingly revolted by eating animal products (and they are chucked into most processed/convenience food, often for no good reason) as I learned more about the unethical, unhygienic, unsustainable methods of industrial farming, but thinking I needed to learn how to be a better cook and some sort of dietary expert to be a vegan. In the end I just called the Vegan Society and the Vegetarian and Vegan Foundation, got loads of free info on nutrition and cookery and figured it out as I went along. As a result I've gradually lost weight, eaten less processed food, and felt much better all round. I don't use elaborate 'meat substitutes' very much (most aren't vegan, or very digestible in my opinion) but just simple ingredients. The problem is that people don't realise that it's possible to change in one's habits, and to get used to change and find it liberating - really it's not such an obstacle.
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veganism and vegetrianism should be a choice for those who want it. it should not and never be seen as the moral high ground; it is simply a different choice.
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I'm in the middle of all of this.
If I want to find out about the vegetarian diet, I am forced to listen to people shouting about cruelty, using such words as 'slaughter' frequently. If I want to eat meat, I am targeted by the same people.
Can I not simply eat a vegetarian diet for the health, or do I have to be flagged as a raving anti-meat activist?
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A study by the Netherlands Environmental Assessment Agency published in February 2009 found that a global transition to complete plant-based foods could wipe 80% ($32 trillion) off the estimated $40 trillion cost of mitigating climate change.
Apart from a reduction in methane and N2O emissions, vast agricultural areas would become unused, mostly as a result of reduced cattle grazing, and could take up large amounts of carbon. Shifting worldwide to a healthy low-meat diet would reduce the costs of stabilising greenhouse gases at 450ppm CO2e by more than 50%, while shifting to a no-meat diet would reduce the costs by 80%.
http://www.pbl.nl/en/publications/2009/Climate-benefits-of-changing-diet.html
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I was disappointed this article was not a pure promotion to become at least Vegetarian if not Vegan. The treatment of turkeys and indeed all creatures fast grown for meat is very cruel, and some footage has already appeared in the news showing this, though there is evidence to show that this is just the tip of the iceberg. Until people appreciate that we have no right to take another creature's life to maintain our own, that cruelty and selfishness will continue. Animals are recognised to be sentient creatures and killing one is like killing one's own child, mother, aunt etc. It is, plain and simply, wrong. I have been Vegetarian for over 30 years and I am healthier than most of my peers. I cook delicious Christmas meals that the whole family really enjoys with no meat in sight and none being needed. People must learn to think what they are doing when they insist on eating turkey at Christmas. People make traditions and can therefore break them too. Christmas always makes me very sad. It is supposed to be a celebration of life. How can it be fairly celebrated with mass slaughter then? There is no need for any of us to eat meat.
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We really should develop plants that grow chicken or something. Would be awesome.
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@ 137 : "Really? I don't recall reading much about vegans in my history books."
Some of the earliest writing of man that is known is written in Sanskrit. In Sanskrit, in the oldest writings known, there are clear references to vegetarianism and the benefits of this type of diet (more ideal blood sugar, clearer thinking, less violent personal behavior towards others, etc). This is known as eating Satvic foods, which is the diet referred to as "the ideal" foods. Satvic foods are defined to be: grains, vegetables, nuts, fungus (mushroom), fruits, dairy and dairy products; no eggs or meat or fish are included.
These writings are *historic* and claimed to originate circa 3000 B.C. How's that for HISTORY? Vegetarianism (with dairy) is a very, very old idea, and some societies have been living that way for *thousands* of years. Ancient Indian societies lived this way, and these individuals have been proven to have lived, healthily, to 100 years old. How about that, living healthily to 100, compared the average fat-cat U.K. citizen, lucky to live past 70 without a heart attack??
Since this is a very old historical diet, obviously they did not know about B12 which is required and not available from vegan diet. For a true vegan, can be included with a simple vitamin taken at least every few days, which is even more ideal than a vegetarian who including dairy. It is ideal because it removes all sources of animal protein, which causes stress on the body (leading to poor health).
The other big missing issue here is the amount of PROCESSING that is performed on food today. Sausages are not made of meat, they are partially meat, partially cockroach, partially moldy material swept up from the sausage factory floor. Fish are not pure fish meat, they are partially fish meat, partially environmentally hazardous chemical, partially mercury. Turkeys do not only yield turkey meat, they also yield toxins, growth hormones, cancerous and tumorous flesh, and so on. This is all due to the toxic environment they are bred in. There are many articles available on these facts. The current food production environment in the world is horrible. Meat production is likely the worst, due to massively dense breeding. It is no longer a choice of "eating meat" vs. "not eating meat". For the meat eaters, it comes down to this: WHERE are you going to get good meat, because the meat and fish products sold in the grocery stores or shops, especially if processed into convenient sandwich meat slices, is not pure meat at all... who knows *what* is in it.
It is a better idea to eat vegan purely for the sake of sparing the body the massive amounts of toxicity now present in the food processing systems! And this is a global problem!
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One comment states 'it is a human right to eat meat'. I don't really understand the logic of that comment. Isn't it a human duty to try as far as possible to share the worlds resources so that other people in other parts of the world don't go hungry? So that we can control climate change for everyones benefit?
Meat consumption is a huge contributor to climate change and the worldwide depletion of water, it is far worse than the aviation indstry in that sense.
This is largely due to the fact that so much deforestation occurs in order to grow cheap feed for cattle:
'Most people think of forests only in terms of the CO2 they absorb. The rainforests of the Amazon, the Congo basin and Indonesia are thought of as the lungs of the planet. But the destruction of those forests will in the next four years alone, in the words of Sir Nicholas Stern, pump more CO2 into the atmosphere than every flight in the history of aviation to at least 2025.' (Source: Independent 14/05/07)
I think the government should do more to promote vegetarianism or at least a drastic reduction in the consumption of meat.
Meat is not needed as part of a healthy diet, in fact it is widely recognised that a diet high in meet increases the risk of many cancers and heart disease.
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Give government a chance. If they have managed to ban sugary drinks in schools, it might be possible with people power and before the hot place freezes over, to: introduce measures, particularly while CO2 emissions are politically hot, to differentially* tax "grain" fed versus "grass" fed meat; slowly reduce subsidies on wheat, soy, corn, palm oil production; differentially* tax processed versus unprocessed foods; encourage heavy eating (protein and fat) early in the day and light eating (porridge oats) at night. All of this with the overall objective of making "good" food relatively cheap and "bad" food relatively expensive. *(differentially tax means tax bad practice and subsidise good practice)
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Faced with more humans or more meat I'm taking meat every time - I don't want to live in an overpopulated world where we reduce ourselves to statistics and cut out all that is good in life simply so there can be more of us - there's no point reducing quality of life for quantity of it...
and besides - turkey is an efficient meat, it's those smelly ruminants that are the ones responsible for emissions - if we switch to turkey, chicken (which we'd need for the extra eggs anyway) and even kangaroo we would be far better off
But I agree, if you can't stomach killing your own food, you have no right to actually stomach it
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149 Fisty
"Not quite sure how contributors to this debate can quote that it a human's devine right to eat meat. You often hear "...we're animals, all animals eat meat...". Why don't those people write down all those animals that eat meat (especially red meat). If that is too difficult, why not write down which animal (clue: it's a very strong nobel animal) you think is the closest to us in nature and why not write down what food they eat."
The chimp? - Omnivore
and I certainly don't believe all animals eat meat - my guinea pigs for example, but most major mammals are either carnivores or omnivores
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I think its fair to say by all these comments that we agree to disagree on this subject of eating meat or not.
But like so many problems some highlighted here we are never all going to agree because we are all so different, so rather than dictate what we should and shouldn't do maybe we can focus on what we can do as an individual.
As it happens i am vegetarian, i was born like it, a shock to my meat eating parents, but i didnt want to eat things with a face so havent done for 25 years. I'm not alone in this, others are born the same or choose to be vegetarian in later life, we'll do our bit for the animals...
My sister like alot of people has no intention of having children and at least 6 of my female friends(not sure about guy friends) think the same, so they and people like them have it covered! The rest of us use protection until the time is right for us!
Some people, recycle, some walk or cycle to work, some hunt, breed or grow their own food, if we all concentrate on what we do invidually we can all come together and solve all these problems by sharing them!
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I feel that people should eat how their concise tells them to eat. I also raise my own food. If everyone help to contribute it might be better, if you were a meat eater and had to grow 1/3 of what you consumed in a year perhaps you would change your attitude. I raise and eat my own chickens. They get play time, yogurt, oatmeal, grass, free range and a humane slaughtering. This isn't right for everyone but if more people considered it it might help.
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I remember as a child watching on National Geographic a lion hunt down a deer. I looked away as it devoured its prey and thought what a wicked animal it was :) I did not make the connection between the food on my plate and animal slaughter.
When I did, I thought about the mechanics of becoming vegetarian. Then I thought, yes I can do this - that is until I thought about eating vegetables. We were taught they are living things. I see that they are living things. I touched a plant once and it folded in. Then I thought maybe I could survive on seeds. If I ate only seeds, would it be okay for me to get rat poison to rid the apartment of mice? I left the mice for a while till they multiplied and made holes in everything and I was told they could actually spread their diseases to me. So I got a cat to rid me of the mice. I was grateful to the cat, although it did exactly what the lion on National geographic did. Then I started feeding the cat cooked food. The pesky mice came back and I do believe I saw the cat playing the mice :D!
Most animals eat living things to survive. They give back to nature when their body decomposes. I will give back to nature when my body decomposes. As for now, I will do my best to consume ethically made food. This is the only way I can find peace. The only problem is how do we know for certain they are. Most people would do or say anything to make a quick buck. It was interesting to read about the way some Soy is grown.
Each should be fully persuaded in their mind about their choice...but the wonderful thing is - it is a choice...
I thank God for the choice we have. Some people do not have enough to make that choice. They eat whatever they can find to survive.
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Eating everything on your plate does not help cruelly treated farm animals. In the UK and US it is not difficult to be vegetarian, but non-vegetarians love to cite Hitler. Hitler was not a vegetarian, he ate squab (a pseudonym for pigeon). http://slate.msn.com/id/2096259/
Rynn Berry's book "Hitler, neither vegetarian nor animal lover" shows the menus from Hitler's chef. Where's the ethical journalism in stating a falsity.
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I recall watching not so long ago a superb BBC documentary about a tigress raising her 3 cubs in a protected Indian sanctuary of many thousands of acres.
Don't think they were watching the BBC whilst being filmed, so dietary advice and hence practice was pretty much left to nature.
As was the end point. Cute and cuddly as these cubs were at the beginning, they grew up, grew big and needed stuff to survive: space, food, etc. As that space was finite it didn't end well.
Darwin kinda had it nailed. Now, when did nature's design and his appreciation of it get hijacked by those with narrow personal agendas, pointy wagging fingers and a slot to fill in the 24/7 news content schedule?
There is a massive, and complex issue to be faced. Stirring up passions around minor short term time buying exercises that cut across fundamental aspects of human development seems an odd way to get there.
More there should be discussion on the balances of nature that are already well out of whack due to major interactions by man. The demands of meat production are but one, and certainly to deforestation. However, I don't think appeals to change what we eat are going to fall on willing ears in cultures where the move from poverty means meat on the table as much as a new Tata.
And failures of Kyoto, Bali and now Copenhagen are very much because no one has the political will to look at the unpalatable totality of all being faced, and thinks it can secure a cosy sense of 'doing something' by flying hither and thither to talk about tinkering. Supported by a media that likes just some aspects as it conforms to the trendy nanny state mindset, and gnaws on trivial issues until they can point to a 'result' before moving on - most likely a Planet ban-it supported by those who also think dropping a few quid on a concert to forward to Somalia is somehow being 'ethical' and don't think much beyond what is carved carefully and served in selected portions by many in the MSM.
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@ 162
Yes sir, I have to hand it to you, the Hindus have practiced vegetarianism for quite some time however I think 3000 B.C might be pushing it. Also correct me if I am wrong vegetarianism is not veganism is it?
However, I'm not Hindu and even 3000 B.C (which is around the time of Mesopotamian culture, not Hindu culture) is a very small amount of time in the scope of human existence and the evolution of our digestive systems.
Also I would like to make the point that you cannot take an isolated variable like a persons diet and apply it to that persons longevity as a whole. Life an culture are very complex. There are a number of things that affect a persons health, diet is just one of them.
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I'm looking forwards to a new series called Sensible Man with a normal family doing normal stuff without all this narcissism and eco-babble.
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#163 Actually vegetarians and meat eaters have exactly the same risk of bowel cancer (Which is the type of cancer you'd think is most likely to be diet influenced) and heart disease is caused by saturated fats, not meat so a diet rich in cheese and butter is going to be as bad as one rich in bacon. Being overweight is the risk factor, not eating meat. Its worth pointing out too that the Japanese who have a very low meat diet have a much higher risk of stomach cancer than us in the west.
Trying to get everything you need from a vegan diet is possible but suprisingly difficult especially for children. Evolution has given us a very efficient method of absorbing iron from meat and a very inefficient mechanism of getting it from vegetables. Our teeth are not the teeth of herbivores but those of omnivores. Our health would certainly improve if we ate more fruit and veg & less fat but this in itself does not mean we should go veggie. How many times have you heard that 'Spinach has more iron than rump steak' and how many times have you been told that its in an unusuable form unless you drink a pint of orange juice at the same time?
Doubtless this post will also be removed for being 'offensive' which in BBC terminology seems to mean 'factually true but contrary to our editorial position'.
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#162. Thats some of the biggest nonsense I've read in a long time. There is no difference chemically from an amino acid obtained from an animal compared to one obtained from a plant. Many plants contain more 'toxins' than meat (which is why its rather a good idea to soak kidney beans etc overnight in water) and your body has a perfectly good mechanism for getting rid of "toxins" in the form of your skin, kidneys, bowels and liver. Half our organs are dedicated to breaking down food and getting rid of anything we don't need quickly and efficiently.
The fact that you badmouth food production while simultaneously praising the powers of a vit B12 in chemical, pill shaped form is hilarious.
Incidentally how much soya do you eat? That stuff is often GM (not that GM food bothers me at all but it rather makes a mockery of your attacks) and is normally grown in cleared rainforest too. Turkeys on the other hand are grown in Norfolk, not famous for its rainforests and lamb is raised on welsh & scottish hillsides not suitable for any crop growing.
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Are all vegetarians/vegans self righteous? I am an omnivour, to confirm that all I have to do is open my mouth and look in the mirror, I have sharp incisors to cut my meat and canines to tear it, I also have molars that serve two purposes crush bones and vegetables. To understand why humans are omnivores look out of the window, see the bleak snow covered countryside with no vegetables but mobile food sources plentifully available.
We evolved on the lines of survival of the fittest, if we followed the ethical global,warming lines of many of the vegetarians/vegans we must logically move to no food that is not produced where it is consumed.
Animals produced for meat cause huge amounts of methane so contribute to global warming, so if we stop eating animals it will stop this? I don't think so it would just move it to the humans.
Animals in the wild have no concerns about how there next meal was raised all they care about is they are hungry and have the desire to survive as do we, the difference between us is we have had the luxury of time to contemplate and philosophise about our actions. Time we would not have if we had been vegetarians as all our energy would have been concentrated on ruminating as all vegetarian animals do.
Acccept what we are, care for our next meal by all means but don't tell us that we are all condemed to a special hell created for meat eaters and that non meat eaters are a special and wonderful breed that will inherit a wonderful and mythical planet where you all live in harmony with the other ruminants.
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I can't believe that you are complimenting Hitler on his vegetarian achievements, yet he killed millions of people. I have just had my comment removed for daring to highlight this fact?!
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Yes, it is highly appropriate that all eco-fascists should do something that Adolf Hitler did. But no, one cannot confect a Christmas treat from a limp carrot and left-over cheese. Be sensible.
Is this man's column actually meant to be satire? If so, spiked.online do it better.
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#181. I pointed out that Hitler replaced medical testing on animals with medical testing on concentration camp prisoners instead so any 'ethics' he had were severely screwed up. I also pointed out that Paul McCartney fired several roadies for eating beef burgers when on tour a few years back. http://www.wacotrib.com/opin/content/news/opinion/stories/nugent/06172007_wac_nugent.html and I made the fairly reasonable point that forcing your views onto others is fascism. If Paul wants to come round to dinner and sign some of my Beatles albums I wouldn't serve him a steak after all. Sacking people because they don't share your diet is outrageous.
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It is unethical to assert it is unethical to eat meat.
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@zzkevinm
I don't know whether eating meat / not eating meat contributes to dementia (although interestingly, what types of dementia are you refering to, eating meat contributes to a less healthy cardiovascular system, significantly increasing your likelihood of vascular dementia) but your conceptualisation of having dementia is inaccurate and offensive. There are thousands of people living with dementia leading fulfilling, active lives, contributing to society, working, learning, campaigning, raising money for charity- dementia is a terminal illness, but is not characterised throughout by the droolling end-stage condition you describe. I would rather have a quick death than one that is drawn out, but that does not mean that people with dementia-including in the end stage- don't deserve compassion and respect.
Sorry to go off topic, but felt I should reply as your comment apparently wasn't offensive enough for the bbc mod to remove. I wonder if the comment would be tolerated about other disabilities?
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Eating meat? overpopulation? climate change and eco-web overload? There are an unpleasant confluence of forces coming together that will potentially see not millions of people die but billions, maybe all. The Malthusian prophesy of mass population leading to mass starvation and havoc was never truly stopped, merely delayed. Our population has continued to grow, if we look at the current pattern we may already be near the tipping point leading into spiralling mass starvation and catastrophe.
As a scientist I see this as an exciting possibility for technology to save humanity again. I have looked for answers and found at least one viable solution - industrial artificial biome farming, using ultra large scale manufacture. this could produce synthetic foodstuffs for both humans and food animals, solve our energy and carbon problems and even produce carbon neutral diesel and petrol. The only real drawback is cost - around £10 trillion over twenty years, but the returned value should actually exceed this before construction is even completed.
Blue sky science has plenty of other answers, both good and bad. Fantastical sounding but just maybe possible might be mass hibernation to reduce the ecological load by freezing say half the human population at any one time. Some suggest things like mass space colonization but these mostly have huge technical hurdles like lifting huge amounts of mass into space. Artificial biome farming does the same thing but on the ground - much simpler.
Let us assume the world is not prepared to spend the trillions needed for big scientific solutions, then we are left with population control and cutting down on resources. No one sane can believe we can go on as we are today - just to stabilize our current population we need to kill an extra 50 to 100 million people a year. Population control by reducing birth rate is a method we could have introduced 30 years ago, but is no longer enough by itself (humans live 50 to 90 years). Assuming disaster is still 50 years away, population control is to late unless we increase the death rate as well.
Let us assume we wont do that either, after all we are not immoral monsters. The only option left is the one we’re doing now - nothing. All we can do now is work around ways to deal with the food crisis if or when it arrives, this is were we get towards the really ugly solutions. An instant solution is to use nuclear weapons to reduce the number and size of population centres. Another method is simply to declare war on everyone else, once people are starving this is likely to be what will happen. Or society can simply be allowed to fall apart, this or war are likely to lead to the worst scenario’s.
There is another solution, ‘the cannibal equation’, any size of human population only able to eat human flesh will tend to dwindle towards zero within about six months. Cannibalism isn’t very pretty but most of our ancestors probably did it and tribal humans have done it within living memory. Biologically there is no difference between human and animal meat, it is just as healthy as long as you cook it first. There eating meat and the environmental problem solved in one simple step, we have a billion to get through to save the world before it ends, :). Now the only question, should the rich eat the poor or the poor eat the rich?
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Robin Howden:- Do your molars really crush bone? Wow! What a remarkable set of teeth you have! Is your body also built with the speed to outrun a cow? and claws with which to render it helpless and kill it? Will your canines rip off raw flesh and fur and are you able to digest quantities of raw meat? Our Creator designed us to scavenge.Finger nails are for peeling and digging. Not ripping flesh. Without tools (which obviously evolved long after our bodies!)how would you eat a sheep? Our Creator did not build us with the speed of a cat, the claws of a lion or the jaw of a dog. Neither did he give us the carnivorous instinct to look at a live horse and salivate.Whilst our bodies can tolerate a huge variety of foods (and poisons!- hence our amazing ability to survive and breed at the rate at which we have)we are first and foremost foragers and scavangers.As our intelligence improved, we developed traps and tools resulting in modern day intensive farming, thus providing us with unnatural amounts of meat at our disposal.
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Karen, science has recently discovered that humans almost certainly evolved from animals that already had fire. Our digestive systems are simply not able to cope with large amounts of uncooked food either animal or vegetable. In fact humans are not really adapted to survive in any environment without tool use. We are adapted to eat an extremely rich diet in comparison to other animals, which gives us probably the highest mechatronic efficiency of any animal and allows us to have such huge brains. Sadly we are definitely evolved to eat animal protein as are many of our close relatives like Chimpanzee's.
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Just to extend on Robert Lucien's point (above, #189). Karen, we're not built to outrun a cow in speed, however we have evolved muscles which can keep on running at a good pace for a remarkable amount of time - just look at marathon runners. We would hunt in groups and hound an animal, chasing it through the wilds until it tired and we could kill it with rocks, sticks and whatever else we could find. It was the only way we could kill these animals, because we are weak for out size.
We did scavenge and forage, but we also hunted to get that boost of energy and protein needed to keep out bodies going. Liver in particular is an excellent source of nutrition, and people would be a lot healthier if they substituted one of their regular meat dinners with liver once a week. Look at our digestive systems and you will see it is more similar to that of a dog than that of a horse, cow or even a pig which is also an omnivore. We're built to eat a lot of grains, fruits and some meat. Granted we eat too much meat now, but we eat too much of everything these days - carbs, fats and protein - for the level of work we do.
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Get over it vegans with your moral sob stories. Death is as much a part of life as life its self. In fact, all mammals at all times are contributing to the death of something else until blood seises to flow thru our veins...
Welcome to earth.
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Also the argument that we did not evolve to cook food and eat animals is nonsense. If we weren't supposed to do what we do then we wouldn't. I'm sick of hearing the word "unnatural" because where do you draw the line? As creatures of this earth, this solar system and this universe, everything we do is completely natural even if we blow up the whole planet. And the notion that things we can do can be even considered unnatural is a notion that separates us from everything else on the planet.
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188. Karen wrote:
"Robin Howden:- Do your molars really crush bone? Wow! What a remarkable set of teeth you have! Is your body also built with the speed to outrun a cow? and claws with which to render it helpless and kill it? Will your canines rip off raw flesh and fur and are you able to digest quantities of raw meat? Our Creator designed us to scavenge.Finger nails are for peeling and digging. Not ripping flesh. Without tools (which obviously evolved long after our bodies!)how would you eat a sheep?"
dear lord - you know this sort of nonsense does not help you?
Humans do not scavenge, they hunt - using tools, and cooking with FIRE - it is our large brain that gave us the capability to hunt and eat in this way, the cats got claws and teeth - we got the brains to outsmart any animal
had we just been scavengers, or gatherers, we'd be dozy herbivores
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No one has brought up the lack of essential omega 3 fatty acids in the vegan diet which is essential to healthy nerve function and is also a truth that seems to reveal its self in the nonsense you hear coming from the mouths of a great number of vegans.
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If #189 is the same 'Karen' who claims that developing countries have far more resources to deal with climate change than developed countries because she got caught out by the cold snap, then her comment makes as much sense and the drivel she spouts on other fora.
But anyway, as you mentioned you were going to talk about population next week, can you PLEASE dispel this myth that overpopulation abroad is the cause of our problems: #49 (Krupt) has it right. You cannot talk about population unless you talk about the associated consumption. Half the world don't aren't rich enough to eat meat. The element of population that needs to be controlled (if you want to go down that path) is the part in the globalised consuming world ~ 2bn. The rest contribute next to nothing. There is no end to our greed and removing 4billion of the poorest people (who have the most kids) on Earth will achieve nothing to address problems like meat consumption or carbon emissions.
There are of course sound reasons for family planning particularly local environmental ones but when invoked to talk about problems of consumption, it is lazy thinking and just shifts the blame to the blameless. The increase in consumption from people getting richer. An increasing number of people are being brought into the global economy and adopting Western levels and styles of consumption. Raw population numbers are meaningless.
We will have to learn to share more because more people want a slice of the pie. That is the uncomfortable truth and seeking to limit population in other places so we don't have to change here is conceptually unjust and practically irrelevant.
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@#44 - You extrapolated that the antelope you hunt would not be there if the land were converted to feed vegans. If, for the sake of argument, all the vegans started hunting antelopes, how much land would be required to sustain all the antelopes to feed everyone? Why just vegans? You should include all meat-eaters who eat factory farmed animals. Seems you have completely missed the point that feeding grain to these animals will destroy at least ten times as much of the nature you would otherwise be (glibly) hunting on. I therefore think your argument is intellectually bankrupt.
@#126 - Seems you missed reading #98 paragraph 2. I suggest you do that.
@#194 - Try Flax seed oil for Omega3 fatty acids.
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#187
logic dictates that it won't be the vegetarians eating the omnivores.
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Don't worry about vegetarianism. Eat what is to hand. Here in Rickmansworth we are overpopulated with Canada geese which foul the parks and crop the grass unmercifully. Wouldn't it be sensible to set up a processing plant and make them into tasty dishes for the locals if not for the people for their pets and make a small profit for the ratepayers?
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#188 Karen
"we are first and foremost foragers and scavangers.As our intelligence improved, we developed traps and tools resulting in modern day intensive farming, thus providing us with unnatural amounts of meat at our disposal."
No we are foremost hunters, apes were scavengers. What made man stand up and use tools was the need to hunt and get meat.
Meat allowed our brains to grow and beasts of burden enabled intensive farming and ultimatley the birth of civilisation.
The use of beasts of burden for farming and meat was what allowed some people to spend time doing stuff other than farming ie: smelting iron.
It is the reason europe became the most advanced continent on earth and its why the aztecs and mayans remained in the stone age whilst we were in the iron age. (They had no native beasts of burden).
The calorific properties of meat is what makes any animal develop look at nature, without exception the most intelligent animals eat meat and the least intelligent are vegetarians.
Afterall why do you think a fox is cunning whilst a rabbit is stupid?
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