It didn't quite work out that way
Bit of a clash today with Alan Duncan, a minister in the Department for International Development. Before the interview began he told me it was his first ministerial interview. I told him we'd be "gentle" with him. It didn't quite work out that way.
I asked him why we were increasing our aid to Afghanistan from £500m to £700m when his own department had reported that only £20 in every £100 that we were already spending was getting to the intended recipients and when there were reports of billions of dollars in cash leaving the country.
I'm not sure he knew about his departmental report but he maintained that the money flight was probably drug money. In fact, the Wall Street Journal investigation of June 25th on which my question was based made it clear that the money leaving the country included "aid and logistical" money as well as drug money -- and reported that "massive infusions of poorly-monitored Western dollars were helping foster a culture of graft."
It reported that over $3 billion had been openly (ie officially recorded) as having flown out of the country in the past three years, often in sums so large that it was piled on to pallets. Since Afghanistan's GDP is only $13 billion that means almost a quarter of it left the country in cash in three years, some of it aid money meant to help some of the poorest people in the world. Most of it went to Dubai, which means aid money has probably bought more million-pound condos there that it has built schools in Afghanistan.
And that's only the money that is officially recorded as leaving the country. Include the cash being secretly smuggled out and Afghan and US officials believe around $10m a day is leaving the country -- around $3.65 billion a year. Afghanistan is not so much short of money as short of money that stays in the country.
For that reason the US Congress has frozen further aid pending an investigation. The British government has decided to increase its aid by 40%.
Click here to watch Andrew Neil and Alan Duncan on the Daily Politics (July 20)
If, as Mr Duncan maintained, most of this cash flight is drug money -- and we don't know how much might be -- I'm not sure that makes a difference: a sensible and non-corrupt government in Kabul would impound it and spend it on its people. In fact, most of the money seems to be leaving with the connivance of the Karzai government. The Journal reports the Chief Customs Officer at Kabul Airport saying his men found a "pile of millions of dollars", all undeclared, and tried to stop it being put on a flight to Dubai; but "there was lots of pressure from my higher ups" not to interfere. The money left.
Meanwhile, despite the billions and billions of Western aid -- as much as $40 billion, in fact -- which has flowed in to the country since 2001, an Afghan woman dies every 30 minutes from pregnancy and a child dies every two minutes in a country which is still one of the worst places on earth to live. I suspect most Brits would happily see a bit of their tax go to alleviate this sort of abject poverty -- if they could be sure that's what it was doing and that Kabul had a government which was making its own contribution. But both points are moot, which is why I pressed the minister.
He's promised to come back on to the Daily Politics. I hope he does.
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~48~RS~)
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Back in the run up to the election David Miliband made similar claims during a Daily Politics debate.
Here's an article on Full Fact.org showing how he was wide of the mark
http://bit.ly/cshFXB
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Actually Andrew, you're not my favourite presenter but I'll hold my hands up and say that that was an outstanding introduction, and well done.
Presumably, most Afgahani politicians and their associates will be beavering away enthusiastically until the plug is pulled in four or five years' time.
I suspect most Brits would happily see a bit of their tax go to alleviate this sort of abject poverty...
And I was very pleased to see that. I'm quite sure you're right.
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Andrew,
is is the sort of 'interrogation' which the politicians require. They really cannot hide behind the use of emotive terms to justify their position, and to rubbish any opposition. I get personally very angry when somebody just uses a derogatory term, like despicable to oppose the use of the taxes of hard earned workers to give to the likes of India, Pakistan, China et al and then for them to have nuclear weapons, or possibly arm any insurgents.
What I thought was your perfect analysis that so little of the money which we give actually goes to 'the poor'. Furthermore, there really should be available on the net all the pay of the executives of these charites, I think that many people would be appalled at how much is actually being made from 'charity' it would seem to this simple person like me that it really is nothing other than a job.
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Actually Andrew,you ARE one of my top 2 interviewers and,as usual,you showed a government minister lacking in knowledge.Alan Duncan seems to be a nice chap but without much substance.He seemed to think he was still on 'Have I Got News For You' instead of being tested on a serious political programme.As a Tory I hope AD stops fooling around and gets to grips with the obvious problems in his new department,otherwise he will surely go the way of that other 'media MP' - Lembit Opik.
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It was a typical Andrew Neil interview - "I'm so much cleverer than you, you unimportant politician".
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The way the increase in aid to Afghanistan was presented to me yesterday, via the TV news, was persuasive. I could see William Hague's point.
The problem is that underneath it all, I don't believe the money is really reaching its intended destination. Long and bitter experience with overseas aid has shown that it rearely does. Your show and this blog only adds weight to those supicions...
So at a time when we're all being asked to tighten our belts and make some pretty big sacrifices, this ongoing and increasing waste of money on foreign aid, particularly to lost causes such as Afghanistan, does not go down too well in this Household...
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Andrew,
what I find strange is that with regard to the PMs trip to America that we are allowing the Americans to set the agenda where we are taking it in the neck over the oil spill, and the freed convicted terrorist.
My point would be can we have an apology from the US for extra-ordinary rendition, and enhanced interrogation techniques. The reason being that I think that many states could see absolutely nothing wrong with the regime change, although illegal in international law it solved the problem of Sadam and his family, with the diaspora which resulted. The problem with the war, and subsequent occupation was the way in which the occupying forces behaved.
If you invade and treat the conquered people in full accord with honour, and as equal human beings, then the occpiers can actually be seen as liberators. However, if you go in and treat the people as untermuncheon, and don't really promote democracy, and are a bit trigger happy then you have a problem. The Americans fell into a trap, and the politicians are complicit.
I think that the only way to lance the boil is to bring the leaders to trial, just as would happen to anybody who started an illegal war, just as it was proposed for the German Kaiser after WWI, and subsequently the reviled regimes of Japan, and Nazi Germany.
As you so rightly put forward it was possibly the intention to bring freedom and democracy to Iraq, only it hasn't turned out that way, and it won't in Afghanistan either, you can forget education, and womens rights, they might as well put on their full burkhas, and leave the universities now.
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Good, good work Andrew, this is EXACTLY the kind of pressure we need on our elected representatives.
Pity it never happened under Labour, but, better that it DOES happen now.
More please, this is what we want.
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Good Morning Andrew,
the World Bank and its agencies are very much involved in all forms of funding Overseas Aid, most of our aid I think goes to them rather than directly to any possible recipients. Accordingly, what I think would be a brilliant form of investigative journalism is the extent to which the World Bank, and similar agencies, like the IBRD, actually debar any individual, or institution from being involved in the process. I think there should be a list, with reasons why they were debarred, and how much of hard earned taxpayers money was involved.
The other problem is that some of the current crop of politicians have been too close to the organisation, they even may have worked for the organisation, or one of its tentacles. The idea behind the World Bank is very laudable, but it has somehow become subverted, there is the comment about power, that power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely, I think the same of money, and organisations who are 'given' money to distribute, for 'aid' projects. Just look at the Chad Cameroon Oil Pipeline Project, and the impact it has had on the Dafur region. The road to hell as they say is paved with good intentions, it really wasn't meant to end this way.
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Andrew,
I think that from your interview yesterday it is possible, if not highly probable that there is a problem with regard to aid getting through to the real poor, who actually will all be poor, everything is relative, but everybody also realises that sanctions against a country are there to make the poor ever poorer, until I believe they are meant to rise up and overthrow the government.
Now we currently hear a lot of an oil company and its problems. But there are so many others who are also deep in trouble. Let us just look at Iran.
A very large company, with a history of involvement with the Nazis in Germany was part of a joint venture with a Finnish telecoms company in 2008 to provide Iran's monopoly telecom company with technology that allowed it to intercept the internet communications of its citizens to an unprecedented degree. The technology reportedly allowed it to use 'deep packet inspection' to read and even change the content of everything from "emails and internet phone calls to images and messages on social-networking sites such as Facebook and Twitter".
Now there is a problem, because we really should see lists of companies which have problems with the World Bank Group. They may not be officially barred, but they enter into voluntary agreements not to bid for 'work' on the basis that there is absolutely no chance that any bid would progress. So they are not barred, just don't bother, for a year or two or until the reasons are conveniently gathering dust in some office somewhere.
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Oh Good Morning Andrew,
your programme yesterday has opened a whole can of worms because there are some of us out here who have too much time on our hands. For example I thought that I would look at possible corruption in India, what with so much of our so called aid going there. Now we are told that there are experts who monitor and look at all the aid, so that we can all feel confident that the aid gets through. Now in all probability we will be told that the firms doing this monitoring have great integrity, and are well controlled, and anyway look at the great job that they did over auditing the UK banking system, signing off the accounts as being true and fair, and that there are strict rules for accountants, auditors, and consultants.
But my point is look at 14 January 2009, where Price Waterhouse, the Indian division of PricewaterhouseCoopers, announced that its reliance on potentially false information provided by the management of Satyam may have rendered its audit reports "inaccurate and unreliable". Now I know that Satyam was not in receipt of international aid, it was a commercial company, but people ought to get real about what is going on. I have great concerns over the whole of the UK sytem of accountancy, I think that there really ought to be a government inquiry into the accountancy profession, because surely everybody can see that there is a problem.
The only reason why there would not be an inquiry is because the tentacles have already spread so wide that there is the distinct possibility that it would reveal that there is more corruption than many people realise.
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Andrew,
everybody must read your blogs and comments. For example I was listening to the most interesting Alex Salmond who was being questioned this morning on the Today programme over the release of the convicted Libyan terrorist.
What I thought interesting was that he picked up on an issue which I have been consistent on over the whole period of the problem. That is the position of the UK government over the release from incarceration of Ronnie Biggs, who also was released at about the same time by Jack Straw for similar compassionate grounds. We had pictures of a very ill Biggs, close to death, family members around the bed, and yet, now. Is the wonderful Ronnie now in some taxpayer funded Care Home. Just as it could be said that the convicted Libyan terrorist showed no compassion for his victims, could not the same be said of Biggs, what compassion did he show for the train driver who died subsequent to being coshed, or the appalling way in which Biggs used the sysytem to live abroad.
Your blog and moderators are the best, and I don't say that lightly, and I bet that those who started these blogs thought it a good idea at the time, only they didn't possibly anticipate what it would do for some people like me, we have our voices, and we are angry, or so I have heard it said around and about.
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Andrew,
I am reading in some of the media about the 'Death tax' to cover the cost of care for the elederly, and I must say that it does seem to help towards resolving a terrible state of affairs, and I am also in favour of a national Care Service, with the abolition of National Insurance and merging the income tax and national insurance system.
However, what I would also like to hear about was the the liberal proposals for a local income tax, bit like the poll tax, but with another name. I cannot see why everybody in a community should pay for those services, all of the people, whether home owners or not.
There is much talk of the number of people who do not even register to vote, that process actually started with the poll tax, where people failed to register on the basis that they thought they could avoid their poll tax liability.
I think that the census which is to take place next year will actually be a complete waste of time and money, it should be scrapped with immediate effect, otherwise I can see a mass disobedience for not answering, surely the easy way is to just sit in a park all day, and say that you were not at home, or take a holiday. I think, and believe that the days of the census have passed their sell buy date, many of my ancestors have just disappeared for decades, only to return much later in their life.
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11.
The 'tentacles' you talk of are far reaching and are the result of our obsession with money. The corruption will never stop - it can't - too many are involved and too many countries. Many 'deals' are done behind closed doors. It runs from the top to the bottom in all walks of life. These are the beneficiaries I mentioned in an earlier post.
We are the people on the outside - some of us don't see it because we refuse to get involved in corruption. But however hard we try it does affect us in some way so we are all participating - we just don't see it.
Pulling the plug on aid won't stop it - it breeds like mushrooms in the dark!
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Britain it seems, has been helping to prop up despots all over the World with aid for years. It is therefore no real surprise that aid money is being used for purposes other than helping the poor of these Countries.
However, it has to be asked why Governments of these supposedly poor Countries choose not to help their own people. India being a good example. It is time the message went out that Britain can no longer afford to pay this aid and as such will not be doing so. Countries should only be asked to give aid in times of plenty, not at the expense of their own people.
I wonder how many of these Countries would give Britain aid should the time ever come and our need was such.
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13
With regard to the census - if you try this avoidance technique you will have to stay in the park for at least two weeks, if not more, because the officials come knocking at your door. Failure to complete the census form, however futile we believe it to be, will result in prosecution. Though I agree with you it is a waste of time, especially since it is going to be scrapped anyway, because it is easy to abuse.
I think you are correct regarding your point about the poll tax saga. But some people don't register because they don't 'buy' into the whole idea of the government per se. They see no point in the agendas of any of the political parties because nothing really helps the people who need it most. They spend most of their time trying to survive in the system that the government has created which they don't agree with. There is no point in voting - so they don't.
Those that were encouraged to vote in the last election in the hope for something better have yet to see it. Is this the 'Big Society' that Cameron is set to deliver - we'll see.
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16
so how comprehensive was the last census, I think hundreds of thousands refused to complete the forms, and then you will probably know that this has resulted in the sum total of 200 prosecutions, and I would so love to see the list of those prosecuted, and how much the prosecutions cost.
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Good interview again Andrew spot on the money without doubt you've become for me at least the main political interviewer for the BBC you will ask the questions that Wark and Paxman used to ask.
Carry it on my good man.
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17
True - probably a little short of funds to employ officials to check and as for legal process - way too much to spend - only watertight cases processed to set an example - look at it from this angle :
Didn't fill in the form for dubious reasons - official checks - unknown number of people residing - maybe first language not English/reception hostile/H & S issues - so letter sent informing of prosecution/or not. End of.....
Yes- would like to see the list of the people eventually prosecuted - would tell a story for sure!
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Andrew
I am surprised that so many respected political commentators in the MSM are quoting Clegg as first Liberal to answer questions at PMQs since the 1920's. Strictly speaking this is not true as the current format of PMQs was institued in 1961 when MacMillan was PM. PMs over the centuries have always answered questions in the HoC, but not in such a structured session.
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Andrew
The BBC is carrying a story about a Labour MP showing an honourable moral compass wanting to pass a law that would fine people who downloaded images of child pornography.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-10709128
But I am puzzled: is this not a crime already that carries a custodial sentence? A monetary fine seems a bit on the lenient side. I rememberonce when I worked in a large pension company in Edinburgh, the police were called when IT security monitoring systems detected a staff employee viewing inappropriate websites at work. Said person was arrested and prosecuted.
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I had the pleasure of watching PMQs today for the first time for a while. Poor old Clegg was struggling a bit, even against the awful Jack Straw. Still it is always difficult when you have one set of values before an election only to conveniently change them when power comes your way. The Lib/Dems will most certainly be the ones who will be punished for joining this coalition.
With the news that the Unions seem to be favouring Ed Miliband for Labour leader (a less inspired choice I cannot think of) although none of the other candidates would be any better and Balls decidedly worse. Perhaps as was said on the Daily Politics Sagas Hatty for leader was not such a bad idea after all.
However if Labour really wanted to win its voters back and go back to its core values, they should have persuaded Jon Cruddas to be a candidate.
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excellentcatblogger 21
I think the MP means, he wants the credit and debit card companies fined for allowing their cards to be used for illegal purposes and allowing the customers to remain anonymous.
The perpetrators of the crime will still be punished according to the law as it stands.
This is how I understand it anyway.
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With regard to the comments as to the census I nearly was one of those who did not complete a form.
The problem was quite simple really; nobody from the census called to deliver a form or even collect a form. We heard precisely nothing.
I concluded that this was yet another instance of failure by government to want to record people in rural areas and was going to leave it at that.
However She Who Must be Obeyed was concerned that we would be hauled off to the County Court and sent on a long holiday at Her Majesty's pleasure. So I rang up a number in the newspaper for a form. After two attempts the form arrived but without an envelope in which to return it. I then had to ring up for an envelope which arrived first time.
My guess is the people who did not complete the form were like me, just left out of the entire process due to incompetent management.
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23
Yes you are correct. The old eyes to brain connection was a bit wonky. On reflection who and how could this be enforced? The number of transactions using plastic must run into billions. Equally the companies that charge for these sites would probably use innocuous billing names. The computing processes requirements to analyse this would be enormous - I believe American Express several decades ago had to resort to using Cray super-computers and that is not cheap.
As to PMQs, it was dreadful. Straw had the right questions but he was virtually inarticulate. There is not much talent left in the Labour Party.
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The best performer at PMQ's today was the Speaker who I previously thought a bit of a wimp. Keep it up and he could rival Betty Boothroyd for effectiveness.
Are tutorials being run to teach new MP's how to yahoo in a traditional manner? You know like a modern infant school class.
Perfectly sensible people haven't taken long to turn into the Westminster bear-garden.
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Susan @22
The choice of 4 middle class Oxbridge candidates + Abbott as the token left wing female could well be construed as depressing - so much better if Cooper had stood in place of Balls.
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I was disappointed in the speakers performance, he has laid down in a seemingly firm way, that he will not allow the sort of 'bear garden' antics which made PMQT more like primary school on it's end of term riot. He can shout with the rest when he wants but he is going to have to be far more even handed than during his last performance. He allowed Mr Field - who is, after all, an old hand compared to Mr Clegg - to ramble on changing his tack and introducing comments by other people to support his remarks. He then jumped in very quickly when Mr Clegg started to introduce the item which supported his answer. Not only that but the bear garden was certainly much in evidence when Mr Clegg got up to answer and he certainly didn't admonish the opposition then.
Is he another speaker who simply uses sound bites but hasn't the guts to carry out his own directions to the house? Sort of 'I'll get angry with you if you aren't very careful and might even stamp my foot!' He needs
a bit more starch in his approach on a regular basis if he is not to become a laughing stock.
On the subject of the imprisonment of immigrant CHILDREN Mr Clegg said it would be shut down - as said children are held in a different area to adults, that area was the one to which I thought Mr Clegg was referring, NOT the whole centre. In which case his statement was correct! So who is nit picking?
Whilst not being a Lib Dem myself I think this young man is showing great promise. It cannot be easy for him but he appears to be behaving and compromising when neccessary in a much more adult way than most members of the last government ever did. More power to his elbow and I truly hope he and the coalition survive the sheer personal nastiness which appears to be still there as a virus passed on! As I have said before - this country does not stand a chance of any kind of decent survival should this government not be allowed to operate. In their tenth week and those people doing the interviewing and commentating are behaving as though the state the country is in can be put right at the touch of a button. OK - interview, you know as in ask pertinant questions, seek to find the truth by skilfull questioning but don't
forget to do your research thoroughly too and remember bullying is the first resort of those lacking in self confidence!
There has been far too much nastiness 'at the top' for far too long and it has permeated this country to it's disadvantage. We don't need THAT BOOK to put us in the picture about what went on.
I do not incluse you in this Andrew!
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meninwhitecoats 27
Hi coats,
I agree, I would like to have seen Yvette stand instead of Ed. According to Balls himself he asked her if she wanted to be a candidate instead of him and she refused. The only problem with Cooper is that she knows what she wants to say, but sometimes the message gets lost because she wants to say it all at once (I know that feeling, I do it myself).
However, I am quite impressed by Cruddas I find him very honest and more in tune with how I would expect the Labour Party to be.
The political parties have moved too close together now in ideals and this has left a lot of the public unrepresented. This in time will lead to unrest and a feeling of resentment. I would like to see someone as Labour Leader who can fill this gap and move the Labour Party back to its core values.
There has never been a better time for Labour to be bold and find a new direction, it looks, however, as though this will not happen.
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YnysMon93 28
Your post made me think, which is always good. Having a couple of days off also helps having completed my travels for now. There was a lot I agreed with, especially about the Speaker, who I do not care for myself, for many reasons other than his abilities as Speaker.
I think we all wish the Coalition well, indeed I personally did everything I could, by posts, to promote them in order to rid Britain of what I considered a very corrupt Government. However I have very deep reservations about their approach to Britains economic and social problems. When you are asking so much of the public by way of job loses, service cuts etc you must present them with an alternative vision of a future which will be much better for all. This the coalition has not done. Failure to present people with the reasons behind your actions, leads to loss of belief in what you are doing. Furthermore growth is the element most missing in their economic design. Cuts are all very well but there must be growth in order to prevent people just becoming more benefit fodder. Cutting in the right way is also important. Cuts should be made firstly to all spending which does not impact on ordinary peoples lives, this the Coalition are not doing. However I have said this in a previous post so I will move on.
Again in education, British children are being failed as it will become another experiment for Government. Britain needs a good stable state system, which provides good teachers and better education not constant change as happens everytime we have a new Government. In this area turning the clock back, perhaps, would not be a bad thing, although I would advocate progress in most things.
As to your points about Mr. Clegg, I am afraid, I will never be able to get beyond the contrast between what he promised and said with such passion before the Election and now. Integrity in a politician is very important to me, even if I do not share their politics. Therefore Clegg will always remain in my view just another politician that cannot keep his word. Also I believe he is an opportunist who is not a good listener nor does his homework on subjects, believing, like Obama, that rhetoric will always just be enough to convince the people.
It is said that a new Government has a window of just 6 months to present and act on a vision for the future. After this date the public lose faith, as I see it the writing on the wall at present is not that good.
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#30 susan
I agree with most of what you say - for example about the Speaker, economic growth, and the patchy communication of the coalition, so far. They seem to be highlighting their inexperience in government, with too much haste and not enough attention to detail and accuracy.
Education policy looks like being another disaster, again not thought through and with far too many question marks over it. It seems too complex and ignores a number of vital points. For example, all the emphasis is on freedom, but universities and employers will still want to see recognisable qualifications based on an unavoidably standard curriculum. So just how much freedom will there be?
Also, it still does not cater adequately for non-academic pupils and their hopes and aspirations - a critical failing of the comprehensive system. I could go on, but you get the drift - and you might remember some of my previous posts on education.
I disagree about Clegg and his integrity. I've always thought that he has significant faults, but it has to recognised that a coalition, by its nature, means that some dearly-held ideals may have to be abandoned in the interests of achieving stable government. That's the whole basis of the PR system, coalitions, and compromises between parties, so it's exasperating to hear Lib-Dem activists and party mewmbers bleating on about Clegg and his colleagues not living up to pre-election promises. Obviously they would prefer to be out in the cold, with no say whatsoever on government actions.
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Credit to Nick Clegg for stating the obvious in his put-down to Jack Straw during PMQs.
Deputy PM:
"We may have to wait for his memoirs, but perhaps one day he will account for his role in the most disastrous decision of all: the illegal invasion of Iraq."
We're now told that this is his personal opinion and that the official (government) view on the legality of the invasion will be influenced by the findings of the Chilcott inquiry. Which has categorically stated it is not pronouncing on the legality of the 'war'. Why? Because, unsurprisingly, there is no-one on the inquiry panel who has the legal qualifications to make that judgement.
Anyone of average intelligence who can be bothered to read the existing documented information on the invasion should come to the same conclusion as Clegg. It will be very difficult for the Tories in the coalition to now pronounce it illegal so long after the event and with most senior ministers having given the decision to invade their backing at the time.
Whatever one thinks of Clegg's role in the coalition this is one issue on which he has remained consistent.
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27. At 10:02pm on 21 Jul 2010, meninwhitecoats wrote:
The choice of 4 middle class Oxbridge candidates + Abbott
Diane Abbott was one of Simon Sharma's students at Cambridge.
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mike-jay 31
Mike you may very well be right about Clegg, indeed I hope that you are. Maybe it is a woman thing, but he gives me exactly the same feeling as Obama did a long time ago, when I become unpopular on the blog for saying he was without substance and just another Carter the peanut farmer. This feeling was also true of Blair when he first emerged and I decided he was not the sort of person I could ever vote for.
However I am open to being wrong and only time will tell.
When I was away I came across someone who was an ardent Lib/Dem supporter (yes they do exist) and playing devil's advocate, I expressed the same views as you about compromises having to be made for the sake of the Coalition. Of course the answer was much as I had expected "there are more important things in life than power you know". So there you have it, an activists point of view, they would rather be out in the cold. Unfortunately you can change nothing until you achieve the power to be able to do so, much as you say.
My Mum for instance was a very strong Labour supporter and even as times changed she could never move from certain set beliefs (so my Father used to say, she died when I was young). My sister is much the same. So I reckon this may be the same with activists and party members, a set position that does not allow them to compromise.
I am agreement on education and I do remember your excellent posts on this subject.
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TheBlameGame 32
No argument from me on this one. Clegg is right, Iraq was an unjust and illegal war. It does not matter what conclusion Chilcott or the Conservatives come to, history when the truth is fully known, will judge it as such. This and Afghanistan will be the legacy that Blair and his administration will leave behind, a period of British history of which we will all be very ashamed.
However, the burning question for me at this time, is what really happened to Dr. David Kelly?
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33
I meant to say 4 male middleclass.....
I am well aware of Abbott's credentials.
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35 Susan
If they will not take action in the Ian Tomlinson case - what hope is there of ever getting to the bottom of the David Kelly business?
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New motto for the Metropolitan Police:
"We have a licence to kill".
I refer to the CPS deciding not to prosecute after the murder of Ian Tomlinson during the G20 riots.
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35 Croftie
37 Coats
I worry that the State is getting away with things. At least Coats Ian Tomlinson SHOULD get a proper inquest. Nothing to stop relatives taking a private prosecution either for assault if not for causing death.
I am currently elswhere, The Editors Blog, where the biggest hidden row since MPs expenses is boiling over the revamped BBC News Page, over 4000 complaints so far and nobody is listening, yet.
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Andrew
How on earth does a company best known for its missile defence systems (Patriot used to great effect in First Gulf War) win an IT project that the previous government appointed for E-borders? No wonder there are delays and poor implementation. Totally bizarre.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Well done Andrew about time someone challenged the sacred cow of foreign aid.
Lets see some salaries for the charity executives and how many politicians relatives are on aid committees,
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meninwhitecoats 37
The result of the Tomlinson case is no real surprise to me. The public, I believe, have lost trust in the police since Jean Charles de Menezes and terror laws that have been introduced. The public have no faith that justice will be seen to be done and I see no sign that this is going to change under a new administration. The Police are now too powerful and are not servants of the people anymore.
Dr. Kelly though is rather different. This issue has sparked interest in Countries other than Britain. I have a distinct feeling this particular problem may come back to haunt Blair and his cronies. One can only hope.
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Thought 41 might not make it past the Censorship Board, even though you can read the same quotes and conclusions in every paper and blog across the country.
Two things:
Firstly, the DPP's announcement on the Tomlinson case comes as no surprise.
Secondly, with regards the alleged Kelly suicide mentioned in previous posts, place that in the context of this decision based on 'irreconcilable' differences in the conclusions from the 3 post mortems.
What chance justice?
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40#
I think it was because the UK system is basically a re-hashed version of the American one, which was produced (largely) by the aforementioned US contractor...
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42#
The interesting thing for me is that despite the downturn, that the charities can still afford rolling advertising campaigns on national TV channels. TV airtime is chuffing expensive.
I wonder half the time whether they are using this methodology to make sure they get enough money coming in first to ensure they protect the jobs of those running the charities first, rather than the priority of giving the aid to the intended recipient.
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40#
Additionally, I would venture the delays are down to the usual civil service inability to manage a flight of stairs, let alone an IT project.
Very very few times are you going to see the words "public sector" "it project" and "delivered to cost, quality and on time" in the same sentence.
Except in the jobspec for the consultancy they end up hiring to push it through once the mandarins have been given the golden brush-off...
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Further to previous posts
The cynical amongst us and even the mildly inquisitive may question whether the DPP and the CPS were waiting for a change of government before making the Tomlinson announcement. Better made under a new allegedly more libertarian one than under the tired, widely despised one on whose watch the incident took place.
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45
So the original US version was a hash then we can safely conclude. I see no mention of suing them or banning them for tendering on future contracts either, but I guess the latter will be against EU rules.
I remember Thatcher banning Andersen Consulting for about 15 years from tendering to any UK government work after the DeLorean fiasco in Belfast. Then they got back in during major's tenure and rebranded as Accenture hoovered up just about all big contracts. For the Olympic bid the other big management consultants never bothered bidding!
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45#
As a follow up, I've just seen on Computerweekly, that its not just Raytheon who have been binned off E-Borders, its the rest of the usual bunch of hangers on and consultancies...
"According to reports, Raytheon's sub-contractors on the project, which include Detica, Qinetiq, Serco and Accenture, will also be replaced."
Blimey. A government with the teeth to kick complacent IT suppliers up the chuff? Who'd have thunk it? None of those four subcontractors have a habit of covering themselves in glory, from projects that I remember them being on, or where I've worked with them. What a turn up for the books.
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49#
Indeed. NIRS2 was another Anderson/Accenture barrel of laughs, which still to this day is a bit iffy.
....basically, consultancies such as this get too chummy with whoever it is who is in the civil service who is hiring them. Theres no simpler way of putting it. How can one possibly explain otherwise the amount of money that EDS had been making from government computing when the trade press and the news has been full of known, NAO reported instances of the projects concerned being not only money pits, but either not working at all or stupefyingly bad value?
The power of the lobby... especially when you recruit former cabinet ministers as non-executive directors, through the ever revolving door. Have a look at an old page in the telegraph for how consulting firms with Labour connections made an absolute packet from CfH and NHSpfIT to name but two. Some very interesting names keep on cropping up in there.
And the hairy chested, dyed in the wool "socialist" class warriors used to say it was the Tories(!) who used to give all these types of jobs to THEIR mates!!!! Arf! Unreal!
Mind you, we'll soon see who gets the poisoned chalice of E-Borders next, if it stays alive, that is... Total project value was meant to be 1.3Bn. Not that big in the grand scheme of things. But, considering our borders are about as secure as a sausage skin, it may be deemed a pointless project to continue with.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Re Tomlinson
The logic of the ruling beggars belief
The Inquest support group claims bungling at the start of the investigation had cost crucial evidence & the alleged mistakes included the decision by the Independent Police Complaints Commission to hand initial responsibility for the inquiry to City of London police who did not treat it as a potential crime from the outset and so evidence was lost.
It's on film - what more evidence is required for a less serious charge?
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53
It is odd that the Tomlinson case and the previous case of Nicola Fisher, who somewhat strangely declined to give evidence, have failed - the IPPC seems to be more than useless as regards complaints from the public. Apparently they received nearly 300 complaints after the G20 protests. No officer has yet to be disciplined and NONE have successfully been prosecuted.
Says it all really.
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41.
Mods, thanks for the email siting 'defamatory' comments as reason for removing this post.
I refer you to the following links:
http://www.gmc-uk.org/news/4129.asp
(ref Dr Mohmed Saeed Sulema PATEL GMC Reference Number: 3390380)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-10729545
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/jul/02/g20-ian-tomlinson-death-pathologist
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/fury-over-police-culture-of-impunity-2032911.html
(ref para 9)
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23859179-pathologists-verdict-on-ian-tomlinson-is-called-into-question.do
(ref para 4)
http://www.u.tv/News/Ian-Tomlinson-pathologist-accused-of-incompetence-over-autopsies/2cb3c00f-b061-4963-875b-2b036b7abaed
A reprimand, two separate inquiries into the subject's professional conduct and a suspension from practise.
I think I was being charitable.
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You made the significant point that India is a recipient of UK aid, a country that has a space programme; they recently found evidence of water at a lunar pole.
They can produce nuclear war heads to fit onto their own rocket delivery systems.
The UK is the only country to launch a satellite in to orbit only once, the Black Arrow programme. Deemed too expensive the project was dumped, along with the entire technical infrastructure. Makes you weep.
If we couldn’t afford this then how can India, a country with a total GDP that’s a little more than half that of the UK?
There was no good reason to ring fence overseas aid, it just made good election presentation, gave the Tories a softer image.
At a time when our troops were sent to Iraq and Afghanistan in too few numbers to do the job and were short of vital equipment.
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Fubar # Ref:- IT, Charities and Foreign Aid all in need of a really good clean out - thank goodness, as you say, someone has found some guts at long last. Hope it doesn't stop there.
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54 Japan
As I understand it the lesser charges that could have been made, would have to be made in a 6 month period - so the CPS's delay in reaching a decision automatically rules these charges out!
Also the first pathologist is under investigation for unrelated misconduct charges - will the CPS review the evidence if he is professionally censured?
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55#
Figured someone in the moderation department would get a bit twitchy about that. No great surprise....
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Interesting poser from the Adam Smith Institute...
http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/politics-and-government/fixing-defence-procurement/
Doesnt say a huge amount, but could make things interesting... the possibility of making civil servants in procurement more accountable for what they sign off, rather than the worst possible punishment being maybe a two hour grilling by a select committee once its all gone pearshaped... think most civil servants that I know in MOD, if that kind of accountability came in would be even more terrified of decision making than what they are already.
Food for thought.
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Andrew,
there was piece on the Today programme this morning relating to confidentiality agreements and an oil company.
Now I have a very close family member who used to be in Special Forces in the British army and he now has a High Court injunction against him, preventing him from speaking in public about certain issues which must be of interest to anybody with concerns over the civil liberties.
Now my point here is that there would seem to be an inferred criticism of the oil company. Well at the same time there must be a strong criticism of the Ministry of Defence for imposing conditions on 'employing' our military in Special Forces. They are not allowed to join Special Forces unless they sign confidentiality agreements, which prevent them from bringing into th epublic domain the appalling situation over extra-ordinary rendition, and enhanced interrogation techniques.
Furthermore, any beneficiary of compensation from the military in respect of their injuries incurred in Iraq, or Afghanistan, also have to sign confidentiality agreements. As for the military and post traumatic stress, you know the charities, come and talk to us, don't go down the pub and mouth off about your care, if you want to talk, come to us, we'll listen, only don't blab off to your local newspaper, you know thin k of your pals, your fellow soldiers, keep sthum, think of the regiment.
There is a new conspiracy of silence, imposed by the MoD, by the military. The usual response, where is your evidence, give us the name of your source, because without the evidence, well we can do nothing, so just give us the source, then we can check, oh and by the way don't mention Dr David kelly, oh no, Dr Kelly killed himself, you can be sure of that, oh, and that Mr de Menezes, well that won't happen again, mistaken identity, good thing he wasn't a Muslim, and as for Mr Tomlinson, well you can be sure that it is safe to go on a demonstration, safe that if you are subject to police control, that the control will of course all be perfectly legal.
There is much which this country has to be proud of, but sometimes stuff happens which actually shows exactly how little progress there has been, the ends still justify the means. Power is still concentrated in a small number of people, I mean the real power, the power to corrupt, to exploit, the fight is far from won.
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59
Steady on Fubar - don't want another contributor to go the same way as one of our recently departed.
The fact that Dr. Patel is facing an inquiry may mean that the BBC has to restrict how we comment on this site ; )
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62#
Apologies Jb, should have thought of that, shouldnt I?
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58. meninwhitecoats wrote:
'Also the first pathologist is under investigation for unrelated misconduct charges - will the CPS review the evidence if he is professionally censured?'
Good point. Probably lawyers waiting to challenge any negative ruling on the grounds of prejudicial influence due to media coverage.
On the same topic, the final question on QT last night, and therefore given no time for open discussion, even though it was a lead story in most online dailies...'Was the CPS decision a cover-up?'... gave us a classic illustration of how power changes people's attitudes and ethics.
I'm pretty confident Damian Green would not have made the same diplomatic, mealy-mouthed comments had he still been in opposition. Likewise Sadiq Khan would probably not have highlighted the CPS's chronic delays had he still been in government. Another sad indictment of the political class.
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#62
Actually it is a fact that Dr Patel is under investigation, it is not hypothetical. However, what we cannot do is to in any way insinuate that anybody is being prejudged. That just because he is under investigation does not mean that in the case of Mr Tomlinson there is any problem whatsoever. As has fairly been stated there is a question mark over the any expert evidence. There are many examples where an expert has given evidence, and then somebody has then asked the good question what is it that makes you an expert, the fact that you have previously given any evidence as an expert, actually gives you the 'permission' to call yoyrself an expert. I will never forget the 'evidence' given by the bankers to the select committee, broadly speaking what experience have you actually got as bankers, do you have any banking qualifications?
Well we know that the banks were actually headed by bankers who actually could not be called bankers, because what actually makes a 'banker'. I think that the more we question our 'leaders' we can quite legitamtely ask what is it that gives you the 'right' to speak on this subject, just they keep wheeling out that General Sir Mike Jackson, you know the general who took his own independent legal advice before he accepted orders in respect of Iraq, I suppose he could be called an expert on international military law, bit like the comdeian who now Twitters jokes, who owns the jokes. In fact it is all becoming a bit of a joke, only nobody is laughing any more.
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Andrew,
when referring to the convicted Libyan terrorist who seems to be living very well now that he is no longer being treated by British doctors for his illness does this not show how bad the NHS has become. I mean told that he has such a short time to live, then how many others are being given the wrong prognosis, live your life to the full, you've only got six months to live.
However he is not the first one, Ronnie Biggs. As for others who have left the country to prosper, look at Asil Nadir, who fled to Cyprus, and look at him now, doesn't seem to be a problem for him, got his money out, and prospers. I wonder what we might learn from his memoirs. It does seem that it is not what you know, it is who you know.
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62. Japanbytes:
Being a public broadcasting company shouldn't make them any different to other media outlets in what they can or cannot legally publish.
The blogs on leading dailies across the internet were full of questions focusing on the first autopsy and its impact on the CPS's final decision.
The restrictions the Beeb imposes are draconian.(IMHO of course)
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64#
Good point TBG.
You'd have thought that following Greene's own experience of London's finest being used for political purposes that he would have had a stronger view on the matter.
I Guess not, eh?
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67 Blame
True - I am merely trying to distract him - for reasons stated in my first paragraph ; )
In QT - one of the audience remarked during the discussion regarding the wearing of berkas - why young people were restricted from wearing 'hoods' - but it was dismissed as not important - Is this still in practice - anyone ?
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66. Catch22
Possibly your chances of a recovery are better for a bit of sunshine rather than 24/7 rain, mist or snow!
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Good Morning Andrew,
I am still in the process of recovering from quite a shock. You see this week I thought I would spend some time going to Cardiff, which apparently is still meant to be part of my country. However, I have to say that it did not feel very much like part of the country where I am permantently being told I live, namely Britain.
As I tried to get on a bus I was told that my bus pass isn't usable on a Cardiff bus, and that I had to tender the exact fare because well, the bus company doesn't have any change because of the robbery situation. So, in Cardiff what a joy.
It was whilst walking through the centre of Cardiff that I realised why there is such a problem in parts of our country with women and the burkha. I have worked in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, and Cardiff was quite, well I hope I am allowed to use the word, but it was quite a 'shock'.
I am afraid that I would not be able to walk into a bank with my face covered and just ask for money, hence the use of all the automated cash points, it means there does not need to be any physical contact, or visual contact anymore. It will come to the time when everybody will cover up, they will trust me, to keep the rays of the sun off of my tender skin, what with malignant melanoma, and all that. And as for the dust, the asbestos dust from the demolition, well of course I am going to have to cover up.
However, what about if I eat whilst I am out, that I will have to unmask myself, well that is because of my own preservation, that is all, and anyway, don't you dare talk to me, because I need an interpretaor, because well everything is in Welsh you see, and I can only only speak English, so I see a problem. I am afraid Andrew that there really is a problem fast coming down the railway tracks, and it ain't going to hit the buffers, it is going to smash straight into our society, especially having visited Cardiff for myself, I am concerned about social integration, because it ain't working, well not in Cardiff it isn't. Try it, rather than New York.
As I listen to the treatment of one of our brave and courageous soldiers, with the withdrawal of some of his benefits, I sense trouble ahead, we seem to care very little about some of our young men, and I don't think that I am alone.
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Catch is still very much under the weather. He is not at all well, and his wellness was not improved by being stuck on the motorway back to Exeter, after a most horrendous crash, I can only hope that those involved were not seriously injured. However, the crash highlighted a problem which is going to happen down here in the westcountry. Namely, during the election which has just been held the local council elections were cancelled, because of the unitary bid by Exeter, well there are strong rumours that the elections will now be held in September, and the result will be a perfect litmus test as to the real politics, the vote, not the opinion.
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71#
Careful Sagamix doesnt hear you saying all that post-multicultural stuff, Taggy.... he'll send the Progressive Thought Police round to give you some "counselling"...
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There has never been any doubt in my mind that al Megrahi (I hope the Hermit is not listening) was released for oil deals. The oil industry is very important to Scotland and the oil Captial is based there. It would be very much in Scotlands interests for Megrahi to be released.
This leaves the British Government in a very difficult position. If the truth were ever to come to light, then BP, a very important company to Britain, would be put in serious trouble. Not to speak of the damage it would do to Scotland reputation. However these sort of oil deals go on all over the World with much more far reaching effects than this could ever have. America is most definitely playing the hypocrisy card here, as their oil companies are seen as much less ethical than most.
In the end it would certainly not be in British interests to delve too deeply into what really happened at the time of the release of al Megrahi.
As to the Tomlinson case, did anyone really believe it would turn out any different?. No Government, at this time is going to allow the Police to be undermined, especially at this time of supposed terror on our streets. A more pertinent question perhaps is, what sort of people are actually being recuited into the police these days. As Britains society changes, so does the quality of the Police that are recuited. In my small dealings with the Police, I have been left unimpressed by both their approach when dealing with the public and how little interest they display in the problems of the victim of crime.
Tomlinson is a symbol of the change which has occurred gradually in Britain. The Police are now very powerful, the reason given, that they keep us safe from this faceless enemy. Maybe the question now should be, who is keeping us safe from the Police?
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Andrew,
the figures with regard to the economy are truly appalling. Yes there is growth, apparently over 1.1% in a quarter, well this is all about bringing forward the spending for years ahead to this one quarter, it is totally unsustainable. The true horror of the state of the economny will not be revealed until later this year, but honestly who on earth thinks that it can go on like this.
We are heading for the downside with actually accelerating speed, it will be such a hard landing that it will make Neil Armstrongs words as mankind landed on the moon seem quite prophetic, one small step will become a giant leap into the known, the known being a very deep depression. Only some people never had the boom, never had the good times, the figures for rates of death amonngst the poor are the evidence that it has all gone so terribly wrong, the road to hell has indeed been paved with good intentions. Doomed my dear Andrew, doomed.
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Andrew,
interesting that the news of the fining of Trafigura should be announced today. I wonder if there will be any injunctions taken out preventing any reporting of why they have been fined.
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69. Japanbytes
So far as I'm aware it's still up to the discretion of shopping malls and retailers regarding a 'non hoods up' policy, and many still enforce it. Obviously balaclavas and crash helmets are removed before entering banks and shops. If memory serves, several years ago there was a London jewelery theft where burqas were used.
I don't think a blanket ban on wearing one is the answer though.
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72 Catch
It certainly will be interesting to see what mood your part of the West is in - a 'first snapshot' as they say.
GDP is up so maybe the 'Cameron effect' is working.
I do hope your health improves.
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@ 64 Blamegame
It all smacks of the effect of the establishment, once you join that exclusive club everything changes.
Fine words in opposition translate to mealy words in power. I actually thought QT was going too ignore Tomlinson at one stage and the time allocated to it was pathetic.
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There will never be a ban on the wearing of the burkha. However, the way to resolve the issue is surely for everybody to cover their face on the basis that the sun is too fierce, or that you regard yourself as being too ugly, or beautiful to look at. Was not the elephant man of Victorian fame hooded.
I make no apology for saying that I personally do not appreciate the fact that somebody can see my face and I can't see theirs. I would feel at a loss if I was blind, I know that this is such a difficult issue, but I do find it somehow difficult to accept, because next thing men will have to wear pantaloons just in case the sight of a woman gets a man too excited. As far as I am aware that is the reason why men in the middle east used to wear such clothing, well that is what I learnt in my history lessons, taught by christian brothers, and Nuns, which probably explains an awful lot.
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74 S-C
EH should appear before the Senate Committee.
(Now that would be worth watching)
C-22
Thanks once again for cheering us all up, Catch, just the kind of fillip we need to take us into the weekend :-)
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Catch@66
You could also add Ernest Saunders to that list, who staged a miraculous recovery on release.
Although initially sceptical about the politics behind the El Megrahi release, I am more inclined to take what Salmond says at face value these days. It seems that by opting for compassionate release they mitigated some of the charges of a political conspiracy, which would have been unavoidable if the prisoner exchange programme had been used.
How like Blair to lay the seeds of this and leave someone else to take the blame - will his star shine so brightly across the Atlantic when this is investigated or is his fan club now limited to the adoration of his Kosovan namesakes?
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The problem of the Burka is more to do with fairness within our society than anything else. Forget about religion and the publics fears etc, the point is it is not fair for one set of individuals to have certain freedoms that others cannot have. Men in Britain in the work place and in everday life are told they must adhere to womens rights. Yet this is not being forced on men in minority groups who are allowed to still treat women as not equal to themselves. The Burka is part of this oppression and should not be allowed.
Furthermore for security the identity of people needs to be known in most places of business. This again is forced on the majority of the public but not on certain minorities. Expression of the face is part of understanding what a person is trying to say to you and the point they are trying to put across. This again is another reason why it is not acceptable.
If the argument from women who wear this garb is that they want to wear it. Firstly I do not believe them and secondly I would ask them why they want to set themselves apart from society as this outfit effectively does.
It should be banned, the sooner the better, young women should not be forced to live their lives behind this drab blanket.
Look at it this way if everyone in Britain decided to wear the Burka because they too wanted to have the same freedom, where would we be then.
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Modding taking for ever.
Catch, hope my 81 doesn't come across as insensitive.. good health is one thing we all take for granted, until we start to lose it.
Things could be worse. You could be Ed Balls. ;-)
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Gosh yes I completely forgot about the wonderful Mr Saunders. I am so seriously in wonderment about how far he had deteriorated during his time at the pleasure of Her Majesty, and then he has as you say recovered. Let us hope that he doies not have a relapse.
In the meantime of course the financial authorities have brought in these so called stress tests. Wonderful things. All that people have to do is to look at some of my earlier posts with regard to the Greek Bonds which were traded in the 1930s, which failed, and were due for redemption in 1964, but they never quite made it. Bit like our own War Loan, which has no redemption date, why it is not paid off I don't know. There is a problem because at the end of the day it is not capital which matters it is income, you cannot really live without an income, you can have as much capital as you like, but not worth a jot unless somebody is willing to give you something for it.
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Is it not also the case that there are certain groups who do not have to wear crash helmets. Mind you I don't notice too many rockers wearing turbans.
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Good afternoon each & Andrew.
What can one say?
"When constabulary's duty to be done
the job of news-vendor is not a happy one."
Patently he tripped on the pavement and the Local Authority is liable and should be sued...who they in turn sue is their business?
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83. S-C
Susan, what about those Muslim women who wish to wear the burqa or nihab? Like Sikhs who wear the turban, Hasidics who wear black hats, coats and have long sideburns or 'payoth', or Pentecostals whose women grow their hair long.
It's just 'unfortunate' that this particular religious dictate covers the individual's face.
In situations like going through customs or where identification is necessary then a temporary withdrawal of the veiled part is sufficient. That happens already, doesn't it?
As for setting themselves apart from society, that's a natural physical consequence of them being faithful to their religion, like Sikhs, Hasidics, Pentacostals, etc. etc.
It's about the individual's choice... also Bob Crow quite rightly made the point last night on QT when he said that the individual should also have the choice not to wear it.
I've never felt threatened, uncomfortable or disadvantaged on the occasions I've met and spoken to a burqa wearer. Just put it in the context of the wearer and get on with it.
Have to say as an atheist I can't exactly relate to all that stuff, but I'll respect the right of others to practise it. I do get vexed when religious beliefs and policies have a real and serious impact human lives, like contraception and Aids in Africa and international genocides. But not who wears what. Too trivial.
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Susan
Absolutely disagree.
43 The Police are too powerful.
83 The Police are now arresting women for wearing the Burka.
Freedom of the individual must be taken into consideration.
There maybe excetions to the rule but from what I understand that on the whole the women I've seen interviewed wear the Burka for no other reason than as a matter of choice. The women I've seen do not seem to lack any social skills or any amount of grace by wearing the Burka and yes perhaps it may catch on, perhaps more people of Britain will take to wearing the Burka, although I have to say mine will be much more colourful, perhaps the colour of the rainbow coalition that never was.
I'm also confused by your comments regarding the Police. With crime rates fallings I would have thought you would have been pleased that the perpetrators of crime are being caught and put away? One of New Labours biggest achievements was tackling crime don't you think?
BTW - nice to see you back posting.
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88
Spellcheck... niqab not nihab.
Another point.... the Q'oran does not insist on the whole face and hands being covered, so only the 'stricter' Muslim sects would wear the burqa.
On the whole there must be far more niqabs and hijabs worn than burqas.
I feel a song coming on....
'They tried to make me wear a niqab but I said no, no, no'...
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@90
.. be careful anymore of that and there will be a knock at the door, constabularly duty to be done etc.
Just make sure you take your hands out of your pockets when the door is answered - they can do you for that now will absolute impunity.
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74. Susan-Croft
There has never been any doubt in my mind that al Megrahi (I hope the Hermit is not listening) was released for oil deals. The oil industry is very important to Scotland and the oil Captial is based there. It would be very much in Scotlands interests for Megrahi to be released.
The oil industry is very important to Scotland…. Pray tell me why, how?
By the way EH appears to be busy… reconstructing his blog site.
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With regard to a song coming on I am just so loving the clips of the truly great late Peter Sellers '1...2...7...9' I do so wish that I was a child again listening to the Goons. Where are they when you need them. I know as many do that he was a flawed individual, all of us are in some way or another, but there was something about the Goons, about 'comedy', and as for around the Horn, well I suppose I am still child like in my appreciation of the funny side of life, bit like the stress tests on the banks, now that is funny. I mean, the money has all gone, bit like when I used to spoon feed my twin boys 'all gone, all gone'.
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22. At 2:56pm on 21 Jul 2010, Susan-Croft wrote:
"However if Labour really wanted to win its voters back and go back to its core values, they should have persuaded Jon Cruddas to be a candidate."
Interesting one this Susan. The Labour Party has been going a few years now, so much so it even changed it's name to New Labour. When you say they should go back to it's "core Values" I don't know what you are trying to say.
Many of the "Core Values" have been achieved so surely it's time to be move forward not backwards?
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I see that some MP's are still up in arms with regards the way that their expenses are being handled, many of them Tories.
Maybe they should all join a Union and get the Union to argue their case for them?
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Good morning each & Andrew.
Those who fail to learn the lessons of history are fated to repeat the mistakes of the past.
Or so I too have heard, around and about.
I went, some time ago, on a school trip to Mountfitchet Castle near Stanstead Village. This is a reconstruction of a Norman keep resembling more a US cavalry fort.
It was here that I came across an early example of the doings of one who held the office of Constable.
http://mountfitchetcastle.com/index1.html
What was one-in-the-eye for Harold, has a great deal to teach us of how little has changed over the years.
Now as then a death in custody or an involuntary-suicide by policeman is held to be a great crime-solver/deterrent.
The more we hear how free we are the less free we seem to be.
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96.
I was directly involved in anti-apartheid activities the late 70s and early 80s, both in the UK and in SA. I saw first hand how the power of the state can be used both overtly and covertly to subjugate a population.
The deaths in detention over there then and the deaths in custody and fatalities at the hands of the police here have one thing in common. No charges or prosecutions against the police.
I would not say, as some do, that we live in a 'police state', or are even close to one, but that's not to say we should become blasé about becoming one. A transparent and accountable law enforcement agency and military is one prerequisite, a media free from government influence is another.
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#94 mrn
Are you hinting that they should join the coalition?
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Good afternoon Andrew,
the interesting thing which seems to be lacking is the realisation that National savings bonds have been withdrawn where there is a link to the Retail Prices Index. Although I hear that there are no plans I bet that before very long the same product will be re-issued only this time linked to the Consummer Prices Index. Funny how they won't be doing the same for Index Linked Gilts, government backed bonds which are still linked to the RPI, although why not to the CPI.
I think that the way in which these gilts are linked to the RPI should be linked to the same index as our pensions will soon be. It is totally unacceptable for this coalition government to allow private pension funds to drop the link to RPI, and link to the CPI instead. There really should be some sort of campaign to not allow the link to RPI to be broken, in the long run it is not to the benefit of pensioners now reaching retirement age. As for having any confidence in any government to look after the interests of pensioners, well you have to ask the MPs why did they transfer their assets out of Equitable Life just days before the law lords made their judgement on some guarantees to policy holders.
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#97 Blame
I sympathise with your views, and the skewed balance of jusice in favour of the police (and, in fact, other state bodies) is indefensible. Tomlinson is a case in point - a violent push from behind is blatantly unjustified and the autopsies were clouded with suspicion.
However, a small word of caution. Back in the 1940s and 1950s, police were unarmed, generally helpful and polite, as typified by Dixon of Dock Green. In the decades since then, society has changed. The social revolution of the 1960s and 1970s has created more aggressive behaviour in some sections of society - under the headings of words like 'freedom' and 'equality'. Not only are the police drawn from ordinary society, and therefore have similar outlooks, but also they may feel forced to react more violently.
This is is not a defence of all that has happened, but simply a suggestion that the overall problem may be more complex than simply pointing accusations in only one direction.
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Roll_On_2011 92
Hello Roll, hope you are well.
Gosh do not let Alex hear you wonder about how important the oil industry is to Scotland.
The oil industry put Scotland on the mape, without it Scotland would only have a massive public sector. Scotlands Government is doing everything it can to hold onto this very lucrative source of income and jobs as some of the big oil companies make sounds about moving away. Its not just the income from the oil itself remember it provides jobs, service companies, housing, specific tooling for companies, research and development, shipping both supply vessels and support vessels, helicopter facilities, and so on, need I say more. Aberdeen is the oil Captial of Britain and takes in enormous amounts of money in rentals and shopping facilites not to speak of the people of skill who have increased Scotlands declining population.
Beyond this people who have returned to their own Country and those that have moved to other places have spread the word about Scotland, which has increased the spread of both its culture and its products.
The oil industry is Scotland most valuable asset.
Thank goodness the Hermit is engaged elsewhere, I do not think my nerves could take the strain of a conversation with him.
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mrnaughty 89 94
When I saw these two posts I thought for a moment Sagamix was back, have you been taking lessons from the master of spin by any chance. They contained things I had not said and misinterpreted things I had said.
Nowhere in my posts does it suggest that the police are arresting women for wearing the Burka. Nor did I suggest that women who wear the Burka have any less social skills or grace than any other women. Nor have I mentioned crime figures which I would suggest are only going down because a great deal of the population do not bother to report smaller crimes most of the time.
No, I do not believe the Labour Party did a good job on crime, I would put it down as one of their biggest failures. With news that only one policeman in 10 is actually doing the job he is meant to be doing and anti social behaviour most definitedly on the increase, the crime figures are being manipulated in some way as they are definitely wrong. The Police under Labour became too powerful and politicized in my opinion.
New Labour had moved so far away from its core values that it almost became a poor version of a Conservative Party. Their failures are too numerous to list, however the biggest one is letting down their voters. Take some time to read some points made by Cruddas and you may then see the vast difference between the true Labour man and New Labour.
It is very good of you to welcome me back and I thnk you for that. However I would like to say "naughty but nice", but I am afraid I cannot on those two posts.
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TheBlameGame 88
Blame I am not a person that usually likes bans and I am not really very religious, but I do care about womens rights. I am not a Harriet Harman or anything, but it is quite important to me that young women have the same chances to enjoy their lives with the freedoms that I have enjoyed. I do not want them growing up in households where it is seen as normal to only show your face in private. People can wear whatever they like (I myself wear clothes that some think are too modern for my profession) but covering of the face is wrong.
I also think it is unfair on our men folk to be told they must abide by certain rules with regard to womens rights and certain minorities carry on just as they please. I do not fear or feel intimidated by anyone wearing the Burka, indeed, I have dealt with much more strange issues in my life than this, it is just the principle as far as I am concerned.
I also care very much about fairness in society, where all are treated equally under the same rules. Otherwise I believe unfairness often leads to resentment and anger.
BTW I would pay good money to see EH appear before the Senate Committee and I reckon they would be so weary at the end, that EH would walk away with the prize.
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mike-jay 100
This was a point I was trying to make earlier, about what sort of person the Police are now recuiting. I agree with you that people often assume the Police, somehow, come from a different background to the rest of us, and of course they do not. So as society changes so therefore does the quality of the Police.
A point well made by you Mike and I agree the subject of the Police is a very complex issue.
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Catch 22
Thanks for making me smile..........
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96 and 97
At the start of the Twentieth century Britain had engaged with the Boers and although a police state did not exist censorship on the newspaperws were rigidly enforced. This was a time when peoples expectations were of the mighty and all powerful armed forces. The press in some cases was too gullible and accepted the Generals at face value. This reached a nadir when thousands of Boers and blacks died in the concentration camps, and was only fully revealed by a group of suffragettes.
During WWI censorship was even harsher and battles like the Somme where 400,000 allied troops died were reported as the enemy routed. An awful lot of stories printed were also pure fiction. In Gallipoli the Daily Telegraph's Ashmead-Bartlett clashed with General Hamilton about the stalemate situation and wrote a long letter to the PM Asquith. This was couriered by Keith Murdoch (father of Rupert) but he was arrested by military authorities and the letter confiscated. Ashmead-Bartlett was expelled from Gallipoli by Hamilton and upon return to England explained to the cabinet the true situation there. Hamilton was recalled and the allies evacuated.
So history is important so that we can cherish our freedoms today. I gleaned the above from a book called "Unreliable Sources" written by the BBC's John Simpson which covers journalistic standards in the last century. Even if the book is a long read I would reccomend the last two chapters for a dissection on New Labour. I was struck by the paradox that all journalists wish for an exclusive scoop but belonging to the consensus matters a lot as well. if everyone else is saying it must be true, no?
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...the police officer as victim...
Victim of what? You may well inquire.
The decent law abiding, law upholding among their number are every bit as much a victim of the recent cover-up as the rest of us.
It is not, that because society is more prone to law breaking that coppers are too. It is the management style, the cowardice of not attending to those few among them for who the law means little or anything they say it is.
Putting MPs or policemen above the law makes for bad law.
Simples, tsk!
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Andrew
I see that there is a bit of a dust up between the Scottish government and the US Senate about al Megrahi's release with various people refusing to be grilled on Capitol Hill. Purely as a conciliatory gesture do you not think that sending George Galloway instead might appease the Americans?
The last time Galloway ripped the senators apart:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyyGoPerzWc
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#106
One actually has to look at what happened to the accredited war correspondents in WWI. I think that they were very much part of the establishment, and were very well rewarded for their efforts during the 'Great War'.
One can even feel it today with embedded journalists. From what I know they were unembedded during the election period which we have just gone through. The problem is that only now are the 'experts' reporting on stuff like Fallujah, where I consider some terrible things have happened.
The problem I think stems from the incident where four private contractors were killed, and hung up, and on the media, and we know what has happened to Blackwater since, with them morphing into Xe Corporation. Many people really don't get it that the military has been privatised, over a quiarter of amillion private contractors now operating in Iraq, yes the army has pulled out, but the mercenaries are now installed.
Individuals really ought to look at what has happened to our own senior military officer corp. They too have now joined the gravy train, and in the meantime a very brave and courageous very close family member of mine has a High Court injunction preventing him from any longer speaking in public, but i least I can sleep in the knowledge that his bravery, his courage has meant that others can now slowly come out into the open, that is unless the military 'talkers' don't get hold of them first.
I resent reporters who still toe the line, give us the line that Sadam was a terrible man, that his son's were terrible men, that there were serious psychopaths operating in Iraq, that does not justify an illegal war, the ends do not justify the means, there will be trials at some time in the future, of that I can only hope, because regime change has to be illegal, as is extra-ordinary rendition, and enhanced interrogation technique.
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108 excellentcatblogger
Whenever I want inspiration I watch the Gorgeous George demolition of the Senate Committee on you tube.
Love him or loathe him he was magnificent, possibly his finest hour.
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Andrew,
I don't think that enough is being made of Clegg as Deputy Prime Minister saying exactly what he thought at PMQs on wednesday in respect of the war in Iraq. It was an illegal war, we can now say that, because in an answer the Deputy prime Minister has said so. It is on record, it is in Hansard, it was not said outside parliament, and I don't care if he has had to recant, it doesn't matter, it is there as a matter of record. Now we can tell it as it is, once words have been spoken they can never be taken back. The war in Iraq was illegal, fact.
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Andrew
On the BBC front page a story is headlined BP set to begin off shore drilling in Libya. All fine and dandy but why not mention that Exxonmobil is doing exactly the same at the same time? What about the other 99 American oil and support service companies also operating in Libya? This is very sloppy reporting implying only BP has the advantage when the facts say otherwise.
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Andrew,
I must admit that I was very tired when I got home from Cardiff on Thursday, so I had to record your late night programme. I am so glad that I did just to get the questions at the end, before the summer recess. Why was I happy, well because the young lady who asked the questions was, to put it as well as I could, a very attractive young lady, with amazingly long legs. So, well done the producer for bringing the perfect end to your show for this season, now maybe it would have been more appropriate to pick up a theme from this blog, and wonder why the lady was not in a burkha. Ah, 1...2...7...9
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ECB
They are just jumping on the bandwagon - that said the timing could not be worse.
Whether we like it or not, many of us are reliant on American contracts - as all the hitherto British comnpanies have been acquired.
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#108 excellentcatblogger
What a great Youtube link.
Perhaps BP would do well to make 'Gorgeous George' their next CEO!
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102
Susan
I believe that Jon Cruddas was very much part of New Labour and played an instrumental role in the changing of the Clause 4 wording. Cruddas is I think more forward thinking than he is sometimes given credit for.
I personally would like to see the Labour Party move slighty away from Social Democracy to that of Social Capitalism.
Moving on, if you are to ban the burka as per your 83. You would have to enforce the ban and therefore the first person to break the newly formed law would be arrested hence my 89.
I persoanlly feel that the burka's a trivel issue and we should focus on women that are definately being violated, like those being traficked and forced into prositution.
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Andrew,
there is one daily newspaper that seems to cause problems for many on the left. Today that paper has a piece on the Foreign & COmmonwealth Office, because it would seem that when a former Foreign Secretary turned up he had the equivalent of the 'hideously white' moment, it was filled with male white former public schoolboys. So a new policy has developed over time, and the popular newspaper has run an article on this issue:
'The Foreign Office, which employs 20,000 staff in the UK and around the world, operates three work placement schemes:
A summer development programme open to ‘talented individuals’ from black or ethnic minority backgrounds;
A summer placement scheme for ‘talented students’ with a registered disability; and
A university placement scheme open to female students, students from an ethnic minority background and students who come from a household with an income of £25,000 or lower'.
Now one of these placements gives the holder a massive advantage in the jobs market, and the article one might quite rightly say excludes one group namely male white ex public schoolboys. Maybe the home for such people would be the military where they can become officers and go off and be brave and courageous soldiers, defending their Queen and country, in some foreign land, and keeping terror off the streets of our country.
This is a contentious issue, but I would say that any aspect of positive discrimination in respect of one group or another in respect of taxpayer funded employment is totally unacceptable, and I know the issue of it being not an issue for which doors are closed to us, and which ones open, but philosophically I do regard any discrimination as a problem, let the best person 'win' their great chance in life only just like Afghanistan, what is a 'win'.
Just as we see corruption in the government of Quizling Karzai, any close analysis might well uncover the very same corruption in our own great country, as we expose the poroblems in other countries, should we not be looking a little bit closer to home. I have often quoted the great Shakepeare, and others can as well, but in all seriousness 'money makes pimps and whores of us all', a sentiment which Karl Marx also shares.
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Catch 22
The question is presumably how the FO is to look like in the future. If the FO opt for a "last in, first out" policy to reduce the current staffing levels to say 15,000, who is carge of deciding who stays and who goes. I hope that after the cuts the FO does not look to "hideous".
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103. S-C
'Blame I am not a person that usually likes bans and I am not really very religious, but I do care about womens rights.'
But that's part of my point, Susan. Women should have the right to choose.
By banning the burqa you're taking away that right. Problem with something like the involuntary or enforced wearing of the burqa is that it will be a personal family or community based problem. But so long as there are laws and support in place for those who wish not to accede to those demands then that's the all we can, and should, be doing. We've been through all this with the Sikhs/crash helmet issue, albeit from the perspective of H & S.
Common sense needs to prevail.
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100.mike-jay wrote:
'However, a small word of caution. Back in the 1940s and 1950s, police were unarmed, generally helpful and polite, as typified by Dixon of Dock Green. In the decades since then, society has changed. The social revolution of the 1960s and 1970s has created more aggressive behaviour in some sections of society - under the headings of words like 'freedom' and 'equality'. Not only are the police drawn from ordinary society, and therefore have similar outlooks, but also they may feel forced to react more violently.'
Absolutely m-j, fully recognise that the levels and nature of threats to society have changed. And that we have professional agitators/anarchists who will use any excuse for a rumble with the authorities. Any protest or civil action should be proportionate to its cause. And I'd expect the official response to be proportionate and measured as well.
The Met and their tactical support groups, and constabularies across the country, should not be making their job even harder by being anything less than fully transparent. The number of cases of deaths in custody and by shootings or assaults on members of the public by the police, be they innocent bystanders, protesters or alleged or convicted criminals, and the number of convictions of those involved in the thousands of incidents, appears to be 100% weighted in favour of the police. Not good if they need the support of the public behind them.
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Andrew,
I listened to the Andrew Marr Show this morning where there was an actor who is appearing in the new Sherlock Holmes where Watson is a returnee from Afghanistan, with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Now what I found interesting was that he refrrred to PTSD not having been 'invented' at the time of the original Sherlock Holmes.
Now this should have been challenged, but was allowed to go without comment. My reasoning is that PTSD is not an invention, the condition has had very many names before now, but to say that PTSD has somehow been invented is I believe a serious slur on those people who suffer from the condition. Now I maybe unfair to the actor, but I don't think that I am.
There was also the interview with Jeremy Hunt about the TV licence fee, and may I as usual help the government by saying get rid of the licence fee altogether, because of computers and the internet nobody really needs a TV anymore. What to replace it with I hear you say, well put it on property, assume that every property has access to the BBC by whatever means, and just tax each property. As for hotels they know how many rooms they have, so charge hotels, and B&Bs by the room.
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Good morning each & Andrew.
I read that one Carne Ross has much to say about the blinkering of Chilcot and how his own evidence got some unasked for stage management from senior public servants. Hardly news yet it is good to see such things getting a wider airing.
As ever those who have nothing to hide have nothing to fear.
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121. At 10:14am on 25 Jul 2010, Catch22 wrote:
Andrew,
I listened to the Andrew Marr Show this morning where there was an actor who is appearing in the new Sherlock Holmes where Watson is a returnee from Afghanistan, with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Now what I found interesting was that he refrrred to PTSD not having been 'invented' at the time of the original Sherlock Holmes.
Now this should have been challenged, but was allowed to go without comment. My reasoning is that PTSD is not an invention, the condition has had very many names before now, but to say that PTSD has somehow been invented is I believe a serious slur on those people who suffer from the condition. Now I maybe unfair to the actor, but I don't think that I am.
There was also the interview with Jeremy Hunt about the TV licence fee, and may I as usual help the government by saying get rid of the licence fee altogether, because of computers and the internet nobody really needs a TV anymore. What to replace it with I hear you say, well put it on property, assume that every property has access to the BBC by whatever means, and just tax each property. As for hotels they know how many rooms they have, so charge hotels, and B&Bs by the room.
You appear to be saying that Sherlock is rubbish, but that I have to pay to watch it even if I don't own a TV?
I'm not sold on this, to be honest.
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I think others will agree that the TV is already nothing other than a tax, as has been I believe confirmed by the legal profession. The BBC have lost the plot I'm afraid, they have allowed themselves to become nothing other than a commercial entity, and it will perish, it is inconceivable for it to continue on the same basis and the sooner it is 'privatized' the better.
However, the real breaking news is that appalling situation in Afghnaistan where two American soldiers have been captured, and it is reported that one has been killed. The worst aspect of this is that I think that the Americans and the NATO forces will now be forced to change their rules of engagement.
The Americans always bring their boys home, they are never left for the enemy to desecrate or mistreat their bodies. So, rules of engagement will be changed, even more use of drones, and as for Quizling Karzai, toast. Those who have captured and murdered will have to be brought to trial, only Karzai will not be able to do it without alienating the war lords, who he depends on for allowing him to continue. Stuff always happens whilst parliament is in recess, whilst the leaders are on their holidays, well the oil spill showed Obama at his worst, well now Afghanistan is going to give him serious problems, as it will others.
The expert evidence from Fallujah where the people are still suffering is a foretaste of what will now happen in Afghanistan, this is not a game, this is serious, be afraid very afraid, because well, because now there will never be any 'peace' in Afghanistan, too many have been killed and injured, the problem must be solved, for their memory, and it is now getting worse than WWI, these war lords must be taught a lesson they will never forget, the smell of revenge is in the air, and still there is no bin Laden, the atrocity over Lockerbie pales into insignificance against the World Trade Center, yet the Americans concentrate on the one who got away, not the one who was allowed to escape.
Actually, think about it, one of the problems which we had was over the treatment of Ronnie Biggs, who was trailed for years, at huge expense, only to eventually come back and serve his term in jail, and was then freed on compassionate grounds, the cases of the convicted Libyan terrorist, and Ronnie Biggs do have parallells.
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mrnaughty 116
It depends on whether you believe that Social Democracy is what Britain has had for 13 years under Labour. I do not believe New Labour had any ideals, they just found a new way to attain power. Certainly Blair was not a socialist, he merely used the Labour Party as a means to promote himself. Gordon Brown sold all his socialist ideals, that where very notable in Scotland, down the river, again for power. That is if Brown, this extremely flawed individual had any true beliefs to begin with. Britain has allowed people to attain Office who have no interest in public service. Those that would be good servants of the people, are not those seen by the political parties or the public as leaders. So in other words, even the public do not see a good thing when it is on offer.
So for me the Labour Party should embrace Social Democracy, although I do not believe in labels. The foundations of what the Labour Party should stand for remain the same as they were in the beginning, only moving forward into the modern age. However these are merely my thoughts as I do not believe in any organised political party. I only believe in what is right for the people of a Country and what is wrong, fair or unfair under the rules and opportunity for all to live their lives to the full, with proper freedoms.
mrnaughty and Blame 119
I do not want an enforced ban, that was never in my mind, that would be impossible. What I want is the Government to send out the message that this behaviour of wearing a Burka is unacceptable in the modern World. That under the law it should be noted that womens rights are taken very seriously and wearing of the Burka sets this back to the days before Emily set us free. Instead, the only lead we get from Government is this freedom to wear what you please nonsense. Someone needs to take responsiblity for this, and educate those who do not understand, how impossible it is for young women to function in the modern World held down in this way.
Naughty, I note with interest that out of your list of issues for women you miss out forced marriages, I hope this was merely an oversight on your part.
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124
There seems to be some doubt about who is holding the captured US soldiers. Initial thoughts were the Taliban but they say they have no knowledge of this. So it could be some local group showing some initiative. This now has all the hallmarks of what happened in Iraq, and could be the greatest threat to International Aid and Development.
No foreigner would be truly safe in Afghanistan. I am surprised that it has taken so long for kidnapping start up as it is a potentially lucrative business. What with all the incipient corruption it is impossible to tell friend from foe.
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This discussion about the Hijab (veil) - one reason muslim women state that they wear the hijab is so that they are not seen by men - and refuse to remove the veil in the presence of males not related to them. It says in the Qur'an that they should also wear a cloak (khimar) to cover the rest of their body to retain their modesty.
So it is really a question of modesty and nothing to do with being oppressed.
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Japanbytes 127
According to all accounts there is nothing in the Koran to suggest that the Burka has to be worn by women. Forcing women to cover their faces in modern Britain is a form of oppression and has no place in British society. Unless you have read the Koran and can tell me where this is stated.
Modesty of dress has absolutely nothing to do with the covering of the face as this can be achieved without doing so. Furthermore your statement that they refuse to remove their veils in the presence of males not related to them, I would suggest is incorrect, as I understand they must remove them for security reasons and doctors.
In fact recently on my travels, I read an article in which it stated that in many Countries now women are actually told to remove their veils when they are in public engaged in any business which requires identity.
In the end it matters not why they wear the veil, in the 21st century, it takes women's rights back to the dark ages and is not acceptable. Young women should not grow up in households where the covering of the face is seen as normal in modern Britain.
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128
As I understand it it is how the Koran is interpreted that is the issue. The different strands of the islamic faith have cjosen their own interpretations for their own agenda. In Iran the head needs to be covered but a veil is not required. In Saudi Arabia the Wahabis tend to go for veil and burka but the husband ultimately decides.
I sometimes wonder how many muslims have actually read the entire Koran. I freely admit to being Christian and I can honestly say I have not turned every page of the Bible. I also find the burka an intimidating garment: when I lived in Ealing going home on a winter evening with women wearing the full garb is not an uplifting experience.
It does seem to stem from cultural heritage more than religious conviction. Is it possible that the desert bedouin covered their faces because of sand storms and that tradition has passed down through the generations to arabs that do not live in the desert anymore?
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Hello Susan. Further to your posts 74 & 101 I would have thought having lived in Scotland you would have gained more knowledge of the Scottish ethos and culture than you have yet again displayed.
First of all with regards al-Megrahi’s release:
“There has never been any doubt in my mind that al Megrahi (I hope the Hermit is not listening) was released for oil deals. The oil industry is very important to Scotland and the oil Captial is based there. It would be very much in Scotlands interests for Megrahi to be released.”
Perhaps you are confusing matters with Tony’s deal in the desert and the PTA, something which the SNP were always and have always been opposed to. The Scottish government were never informed of the PTA negotiations or were ever involved in them, something which the SNP has always protested vigorously against as had they been party to the arrangements they would have lobbied against the agreement (how many other Libyan prisoners were being held in Scotland?).
There is no doubt in my mind that BP lobbied Westminster for the PTA to be arranged and that Westminster is implicated in an oil deal with Libya.
Particularly since the UK foreign secretary is comfortable damning the Scottish governments decision as “wrong and misguided”, he is however happy to defend BP’s motives regarding the lobbying of Jack Straw during the PTA negotiations as “perfectly normal and legitimate practice”.
The conduct of ‘our’ government at Westminster has been nothing short of shameful during this whole escapade.
Not withstanding your innuendo, there has not been any shred of evidence or proof that the release of al-Megrahi was due to this or any other oil deal with regards the Scottish governments decision to release al-Megrahi based on compassionate grounds.
That decision was based on medical evidence and made according to Scots law following all due process. BP lobbied Westminster for the PTA, the Scottish government rejected this. No-one has implied that there is any link between BP and the Scottish government other than the four US senators using this as a political football prior to the Senatorial elections in November, given BP’s US popularity at the moment.
The damage would be to Westminster and BP’s reputations, not to Scotland’s reputation, as you suggest, particularly if details of the PTA come to light.
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Secondly, with regards Scotland’s economy and the oil industry:
“The oil industry put Scotland on the mape, without it Scotland would only have a massive public sector.”
Scotland was on the map long before oil was discovered. However thank you for your damning indictment of the handling of Scotland’s economy over successive Westminster governments since WWII.
“Scotlands Government is doing everything it can to hold onto this very lucrative source of income and jobs as some of the big oil companies make sounds about moving away. Its not just the income from the oil itself remember it provides jobs, service companies, housing, specific tooling for companies, research and development, shipping both supply vessels and support vessels, helicopter facilities, and so on, need I say more. Aberdeen is the oil Captial of Britain and takes in enormous amounts of money in rentals and shopping facilites not to speak of the people of skill who have increased Scotlands declining population.”
The Scottish government would be right to hold onto such a resource when independent. I’m also sure that if oil is to be found there will always be a company willing to drill for it in the future. However, with exception to the benefits for the local economy Scotland as you know does not gain as it should from this natural resource, we would have to become independent or fully fiscally autonomous to be able to benefit fully.
“Beyond this people who have returned to their own Country and those that have moved to other places have spread the word about Scotland, which has increased the spread of both its culture and its products.
The oil industry is Scotland most valuable asset.”
I beg to differ Susan, people and not oil are Scotland’s most valuable asset. Again, I would have thought you would have understood the Scottish diaspora better having lived there for a time. For centuries Scots have spread our culture throughout the world and helped to shape it, very little of it having anything to do with oil.
So many of our brightest and best have to leave to find employment in skilled industries due to the mishandling and neglect of the Scottish economy for generations. This will not change any time soon under yet more Westminster administrations whose priorities lie elsewhere, they have had generations alter this facet.
We have the people and the skills, if only there were the opportunities at home so as to retain such people. As it stands they have to move south or further afield with few ever returning. Scotland’s future lies in its natural resources (not just oil) and it’s skilled people that are more than capable of successfully operating a knowledge based economy.
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ScotInNotts 130 131
Thank you for your post Scot.
I really only have one comment, which is, perhaps Scotland should go Independent, it will be somewhat difficult without a banking system but give it a try, it would certainly have my backing.
The brightest and best have to leave England too to find work, Scotland is not alone in this.
Cameron's Government will not suffer because al-Megrahi was released, the reason being Cameron in opposition expressed right away from Megrahis first day of freedom that he believed it was wrong. I am afraid the release lies squarely on the shoulders of the Scottish Government. If Salmond is so confident of his facts he should be able to prove his case in America just as G. Galloway was able to do.
In the end Scot I believe al-Megrahi was released for oil deals, however if you read my post again, I talk about Americas hypocrisy as well.
You say there is not a shred of evidence to suggest al-Megrahi was released for anything other than compassionate reasons. The proof is, he is still alive and looking like he will live even longer. There are of course other inconsistences about the medical evidence but I will not go into those.
However Scot, you will excuse me, if I am more interested in the politics that is important to Britain and less so in the arguments between Scotland and the rest of Britain. The future of all our people, because of the massive deficit built up by a Labour Government, which the Scottish people helped to keep in office, is much more important to me.
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#132 Susan
"I really only have one comment, which is, perhaps Scotland should go Independent, it will be somewhat difficult without a banking system but give it a try, it would certainly have my backing."
No banking system, what a quaint idea, however I do believe one would exist if Scotland were indpendent.
"The brightest and best have to leave England too to find work, Scotland is not alone in this."
Not to the same extent they do not, nor for as long as Scots have had to. The localisation of so much of the UK's industries in and around the South East should awaken you to that fact.
"Cameron's Government will not suffer because al-Megrahi was released, the reason being Cameron in opposition expressed right away from Megrahis first day of freedom that he believed it was wrong. I am afraid the release lies squarely on the shoulders of the Scottish Government. If Salmond is so confident of his facts he should be able to prove his case in America just as G. Galloway was able to do."
Cameron's government and he himself have already suffered in the eyes of many Scots over this affair. He can clearly personally believe that the decision was wrong, however due process was followes according to Scots law and as the representative of the UK should have stated as much.
I agree the release of al-Megrahi lies squarely on the Scottish government shoulders, no-one has ever disputed this fact. However the US senators are playing to the gallery insinuating BP was involved somehow in the release of al-Megrahi through their lobbying of Jack Straw for the PTA. This is an entirely different issue and refleicts poorly on the UK government of the day and also BP. That the current foreign secretary believes that such actions are perfectly reasonable is for the current UK government to answer for, that and Dalia Advisory limited should be maing this government run for cover.
"In the end Scot I believe al-Megrahi was released for oil deals, however if you read my post again, I talk about Americas hypocrisy as well."
As is your right, however it remains a belief until substantiated. The media both here and in the US has been complicit in contiuning the hypocrisy that you mention by not highlighting BP's current structure and also the numerous other oil companies, many US, which are involved in Libya.
"You say there is not a shred of evidence to suggest al-Megrahi was released for anything other than compassionate reasons. The proof is, he is still alive and looking like he will live even longer. There are of course other inconsistences about the medical evidence but I will not go into those."
That is you proof Susan, that a terminally ill man has not yet died. I am not a medical professional, however I would assume that prediciting a persons life expectancy involved numerous parameters. I also know that people live for shorter or longer times than their prognosis has suggested.
The fact remains that al-Megrahi has terminal prostate cancer.
"However Scot, you will excuse me, if I am more interested in the politics that is important to Britain and less so in the arguments between Scotland and the rest of Britain. The future of all our people, because of the massive deficit built up by a Labour Government, which the Scottish people helped to keep in office, is much more important to me."
What a peculiar arguement, given that however England votes is usually the government that the UK receives. That being the case I must assume some English people voted for Labour too, mores the pity. I'm sure you have as much concern as Westminster does for those of us in 'North Briton'.
How, in any way, does the release of al-Megrahi benefit Scotland?
How, in any way, does the release of al-Megrahi benefit Scottish government?
How, in any way, does the release of al-Megrahi benefit the SNP?
Not at all in any way is the answer. Why? Since the release of al-Megrahi on compassionate grounds was not a politically motivated decision by the Scottish government but rather in compliance with Scots law.
How, in any way, does the release of al-Megrahi benefit the UK?
How, in any way, does the release of al-Megrahi benefit the UK government?
How, in any way, does the release of al-Megrahi benefit the US government?
How, in any way, does the release of al-Megrahi benefit BP, not to mention other oil companies with US and UK ties?
Theres the fire behind the smoke Susan. Until you can substantiate a link between the compassionate release of al-Megrahi on compassionate release and the dodgy dealings of BP and the then UK government your belief remains just that.
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Andrew,
we might as well walk out of Afghanistan today. The whole 'game' is up with the publication of the War Logs. What I would like to see is the same coming out from the war in Iraq, and its subsequent occupation. This is not a war in Afghanistan, it is an occupation, and for as long as it must be understood that any reference to the war in Afghanistan is erroneous. The military would just love it to be declared a war, because then the gloves can really come off, but when will the reporters, the experts, tell the truth of this disaster in Afghanistan, no lessons have been learnt from Iraq.
When will people have explained to them that the Geneva Convention applies to an occupying force, and that different rules apply to war. It is absolutely no wonder that the Americans are upset about the release of this information, we should publish our own reports, they too are available, and the 'story' which they tell will not be comfortable reading.
It is totally not acceptable to say that there has been a change of strategy since 2009, in an attempt to divert attention. We were always the problem and never the solution, can we really say that yes we killed some civilians last year, but the family don't care because we have given them a few hundred dollars to alleviate their pain.
The problem is that 'our boys' our brave and courageous soldiers have been caught up in all this, does anybody seriously think that if our reports were published they would not show exactly the same issues which has been revealed in the American papers. We even saw a bit of it ourselves with the reports from the front of Harry 'we do bad things to bad people' when calling up an air strike to kill insurgents. It is about time that the imbedded reporters started to reveal the truth.
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Andrew,
this is probably one of my saddest postings. Mainly because of what I have manifestly failed to do. I feel shame, I am watching a video of an actual attack by the Americans in Iraq. Now on the 2nd March 2006 there is an article in the Sunday Telegraph where an SAS soldier quits the Army in disgust at 'illegal' American tactics in Iraq.
Now this soldier said he had witnessed 'dozens of illegal acts' by US troops, claiming they viewed all Iraqis as untermuncheon...the Nazi term for for races regarded as sub-human. The decision by this soldier marks the first time as SAS soldier has refused to go into combat and quit the army on moral grounds.
Now this soldier had told SAS commanders at Hereford that he could not take part in a war which he regarded as 'illegal', a view which was also expressed in parliament by Clegg, the deputy Prime Minister. I am so angry because just about everything he said, everything he expressed, all of his feelings have prived to be correct, and yet we continued in Iraq, and from reports today released into the public domain has been happening in Afghanistan, where also served.
Andrew, the Chilcot inquiry is not good enough, there are war crimes which must be investigated, and the military must release the equivalent reports from our archives, this must end, it must end now. As for Quizling Karzai, well his accusations of us being just as corrupt as his government would seem to have a sembalnce of truth.
I am angry, but at the same time so very sad, we are allies of the Americans, yet very junior allies, it is time that we left them to their methods, so that we can then tell them what we really think of their savagery. The truth is out there, the evidence is now there, this is not acceptable.
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Andrew,
all my comments really make little sense unless people view this video:
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
I know that it will probably not be allowed to go forward, but you and your moderators will know that it is out here, that eventually the truth does come out, that terrible things have been done in Iraq, and I would think from the new reoprts coming out that exactly the same has been happening in Afghanistan.
It is like the military are now coming on to the Today programme, look all this happened in the past, at least six months ago, and the tactics have changed. I can imagine a Nazi, in December 1945, look I know we we had concentration camps, but we learnt lessons, we stopped when they discovered our camps, and we have learnt lessons, so don't concentrate so much on the past, as the reports started coming out, well we did not know what was being done, we didn't look, but if we had, well we would never have let it happen. Anyway, how many people did that Hitler fellow actually kill himself, with his own hands, none. The leaders invariably never do the dirty work, they just head up a system which allows it to happen.
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ScottInNotts 133
I suppose my first question would be, why are you so angry? Could it be that the SNP is losing its grip on the Scottish people. The destiny of Scotland is in you own peoples hands, although they seem very reluctant to take it, as the number of people in Scotland wanting Independence is going down, it seems.
I hoped with my last paragraph you would read between the lines, without me having to say anything. It was not an argument it was to say to you, that the al-Megrahi issue does not obsess my thoughts, in fact I am very pragmatic about the whole thing. The oil industry did put Scotland on the map, indeed many Americans, when the oil was first discovered, had never even heard of Scotland. The same is true of other Countries as the UK was classed as one Country. You seem to deny the oil industry is an important part of the Scottish economy, but without it Scotland would be just one massive public sector. If the oil industry is not important to the SNP then please stop Salmond banging on about it. I said from day one that the Megrahi release was done for oil deals and that it was a bad decision by the Scottish Government to let him go. I said this would come back to haunt the Scottish Government and it has. However the facts are that oil is now in such demand that oil companies have to do deals with Governments they would rather not. This happens everyday and as I have said, can have a much more devastating effect on peoples lives in other Countries, than ever this Megrahi deal could have. I am realist on these matters and it is time, perhaps, you should be.
If Salmond is so confident of his case in this matter he should have the courage to go to America and take MacAskill with him. This then would give Scotland its reputation back, otherwise this issue will just rumble on. It seems however that Salmond is not prepared to do this.
Camerons Government will not suffer because of this Megrahi release because his administration had absolutely nothing to do with it. Cameron made it clear from day one that he believed the release was wrong and he has not changed his position on this. So why the Scots should be angry is a mystery to me as he is not saying anything new. This is for Scotland and the old administration of Blair, Brown etc to sort out not Cameron.
It is precisely because I lived in Scotland that I can speak on these issues. However your use of the word diaspora to liken the despersion of Scots to that of the jews is ridiculous. A lot of Scots leave Scotland just like they do England because they want to and because there are better opportunities elsewhere. Just as you have, I imagine, and I also had to leave my area of birth for work. The people of Scotland are no better or any worse than any other peoples, it is arrogance to say otherwise. If the value of Scotland is merely in its people it would be a much richer Country than at present. All Countries need a thriving economy to survive. It could be said that Britain has had the brains of Scotland both in politics and banking over recent years and look what a mess we are in.
Scot, in fairness, Scotland has had it good for 13 years under Labour, no one knows this better than me. You have privileges that England does not enjoy. You have your own Parliament which England does not. It is time to make your mind up if you are in or out of this Union. If you want out, then the people of Scotland should be persuaded to vote this way. Cutting a layer of very expensive Government would increase the rest of the UK chances of meeting the cuts in the deficit. It is in fact the North of England that always suffers the most in any downturn not Scotland. However either leave the Union or stop whinging from across the border, please, or in your case Notts. There are much more important issues for all the people of the UK than the petty arguments between Salmond and the rest of the UK.
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134. 135
Does anyone ever take any communiqué from the Pentagon or the MoD as the unexpurgated truth?
Default setting: bull****.
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Andrew,
I am listening to a phone in on a BBC programme with reference to motor racing, and the 'incident' yesterday where a driver pulled over to allow a team mate to pass. My point is why is my licence fee being used to pay to show this 'sport' on the BBC. All the hangers on, all the beautiful people, all the money that is in the sport, and yet it is shown live on a prime channel.
The BBC cannot afford to show the Australia England test series, yet it shows this rubbish, which is nothing but free advertising for motor manufacturers, for tyre compoanies, and the orgainisations with all their logos around the track. Surely there is a case for cancelling the contract, it is appalling, and yet again the simple fact of the matter is that the ends do not justify the means. As for betting, well what is the point.
Look at the horse race on saturday, where a four to one outsider beat the favourite by a massive distance. As soon as one loses confidence in any sport to be honest, and fair, then we might as well give up. Horse racing has had its problems, with people betting on horses to lose, but is it really any different to the stock market, where no doubt the price of a company will rise if a chief executive loses his job, yet is this not insider information, who is giving us the exclusives?
If it is pre-ordained that somebody is going to win then there really is no point.
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Andrew
Would you not agree that the Afghan report leaked onto Wiki Leaks represents an excellent opportunity for the authorities to impose a massive news blackout on coalition military activities especially all the illegal stuff? From what I have read plus comments in editorials most of it is fairly innocuous and you would need to be well versed in military jargon to interpret the data correctly.
The resonance of control of the media now and in the past century when the UK and US have been at war is quite striking. I am still ploughing through "Unreliable Sources" and the message more often than not is that censorship does not work. The public have distrusted what the offical press releases via the MSM since the cover ups of WWI. In the age of the internet that distrust has increased exponentially.
Post entry 138 above encapsulates this neatly.
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The title of this blog may end up being a fitting epitaph of the whole Afghanistan debacle.
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Mods, slow down, you're giving me whiplash.
(141. Should read '..for the whole Afghanistan debacle')
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139#
Blimey Taggy, you got out of the wrong side of bed this morning didnt you mate? All sports have their problems and their issues and the responsibility is on their governing bodies to sort their act out.
In this case, Ferrari were fined, almost straight away and that was that. They were caught bang to rights and punished. F1 is no more or less fundamentally dishonest than any other sport. As for the advertising, get real mate. You see it everywhere, even to the ridiculously ironic situation of a fast food manufacturer of some world-wide repute being a major sponsor to the Football World Cup, a curious mixture of an obesity producing organisation sponsoring finely tuned athletes.
Dont be so darned grumpy and turn your ire on those who really deserve it - for instance, what the heck is going on in Afghan, the result of the big tri-service chief's get together over the weekend to see who could bring the biggest sacrificial lamb (Tornado/Harrier/Devonport/MLRS, etc) and what the devil is happening with SOCA? F1 by comparison is run by a bunch of Trappist Monks. :-)
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#138
A serious point is that the individual to whom I refer now has a High Court Injunction, taken out by the MoD preventing him from speaking in public. The problem is that eventually the truth does begin to come out, and then some 'expert' comes on to our media saying everybody knew what was happening, and things have changed, only they haven't. There was a series recently shown on our screens 'Generation Kill' which was not appreciated by as many people as it should have been. Also I look forward to seeing the new Ken Loach film 'Route Irish', which also I think contains metaphors for Iraq, and will be viewed with great interest by all those who have any interest in Iraq.
The military have taken over running this country, and the sacking of MaChrystal in America has changed nothing, they are still in the running. I will believe that things have changed if Fox merges all the forces into the Marines, and sacks the officers. Cancel the aircraft carriers, cancel the planes which were to fly from the carriers, and send in the marines.
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#142
Instructions for the Mods to slow down, no speed up...my 136...interesting that one...I do so love it when anything is referred for further consideration...where are the lawyers...brilliant...absolutely brilliant...the ones referred for further consideration are the great comments...gets the mods to earn their keep...1...2...7...9
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143. Fubar_Saunders wrote:
'...sponsoring finely tuned athletes.'
Presume tongue firmly in cheek there, F_S.
Glen Johnson certainly looked like he had been physically endorsing some of those products.
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Andrew,
what I thought most interesting at yesterdays German Grand Prix was the reaction, multiple deaths at a concert, so many young people dead, yet the German authorities, no minutes silence for them. What a difference to this country, everything would have stopped, comments about brave and courageous medical staff, the police, all the public services, brilliant, yet in Germany, not even a minutes silence. How different we all are. Mind you was it not the Munich Massacre, mustn't stop the Olympics, nothing must get in the way, typical I hear you all say, just typical.
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Fubar_Saunders 143
Hey, don't be such a spoil-sport, I love to hear Taggys insights on topical subjects, it shines a whole new light on issues for me. Especially on the subject of ladies legs...........
XX
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@ 83 ...
"The Burka is part of this oppression and should not be allowed. It should be banned, the sooner the better."
and @ 125 ...
"I do not want an enforced ban, that was never in my mind."
Welcome back (!) Susan. I've missed this sort of clear and brutally consistent commentary on the issues of the day. Others try - they try very hard - but you remain in a league of your own.
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#148
life sometimes can be just too serious Susan. I think that if I didn't have my little indiscretions, then I might become quite boring.
For example, just listened to the Daily Politics about the banks. When will people understand that the Inland Revenue have not been chasing people and companies for outstanding taxes. Now when they do start chasing and the owner goes to the bank to borrow the money to pay HMRC then should the bank lend the money so that HMRC don't bankrupt the debtor. Would anybody lend money to save somebody from bankruptcy, because as soon as you lend them the money they declare themselves bankrupt, and all the money you lent is gone. There is serious trouble where all these people who have been 'let off' will eventually have to pay off their debt, their debt to us, the taxpayers. Just look at some sectors who have deducted income tax and national insurance from their emplyees and not paid it to HMRC, this is nothing other than theft, taking money under false pretences, many people will soon find that the deductions from their wages have not gone where they thought it would.
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sagamix 149
I can see you will keep going at me until I answer you.
I mean, I do not want a police enforced ban you noodle. How on earth would that work.
Not everybody lives in your fantasy World you know, where everything is black and white. Banning anything which disagrees with your ideas of society.
You may be some kind of construct, but I am not and I will never forgive you for the things you have said to me.
Clear thinking progressive my.........................
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Andrew,
as you highlighted on the Daily Politics with regard to the 'Brokeback Diners Club' could there not be a diners club for contributors to your blog. Now that would make a most interesting lunch, can you imagine it, because I can, and smile at the very thought. As for ladies legs I do notice that the lovely Jo has also eased back on the eye make-up.
I do also remember the time when Anita hosted the show with those lovely legs encased in those gorgeous long boots, ah happy days, now then the War Logs, now where were we. Ah yes, atrocities!
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146#
"Presume tongue firmly in cheek there, F_S."
........when am I ever anything but? ;-)
148#
Ladies legs? Catch, are you hiding something from us?? ;-))
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147#
Why should there be a minutes silence for the German Authorities?
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#153
Let's just say that it is an ackowledged fact that I have the best pair of legs in Exeter...and I don't mind everybody knowing...mind you there is not much competition.
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T get back to the question of the final destination of aid to Afghanistan and apropos the discussion with Nigel Farage on today's edition perhaps this is a job for the new European External Action Service not least as they seem to be the recipients of quite a bit of aid money themselves!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/7896402/Baroness-Ashtons-new-European-Union-diplomatic-service-faces-45m-cost-overrun.html
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Catch22 150
Taggy I was teasing, long may your little indiscretions live, you always bring a smile to my face.
This was a point I brought up the other day, uncollected taxation especially from private companies. Under Labour many companies were allowed to opt out of paying tax to pay off their debts. This should be collected immediately in my opinion. It is not the Inland Revenues job to prop up failing business models. These companies in time will most probably go under anyway.
Any bank worth its salt, especially now, will want to know exactly what any loan to business is for. If the bank therefore believes the money will not be repaid because it is to pay for debts they will refuse.
Individuals cannot be expected to meet higher tax bills at this time of cuts and companies allowed not to pay.
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149. 151.
Susan lecturing Saga on 'black and white'.
The planets are aligned again. Everything is back to normal.
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#154
Nice spot, sometimes I just so get it wrong, but it shows that somebody reads my stuff. Anyway if anything should it not be the higher authority, ah the Great Escape. Ah Herr Bartlett! Listened to Vince Cable on lunchtime news, for me I think that this is no longer a coalition, it is a collaboration, next thing it will be the Government of National Unity. Should it be Quizling Clegg. I think that a collaboration is different from a coalition, what do others think, at this rate it will be Civil Coalitions, or Collaborations, forget marriages.
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Andrew,
isn't it funny that we call F1 motor racing Grand Prix, with the emphasis on the Grand as French, and Prix with the x being silent. It is just so pretentious, it is motor racing, it is nearly as bad as those people who sail their yachts around the world, it is just so middle class, and as for honouring them, it is time to get real. It's the equivalent of the old grand tour, just so middle class, it's boating, boating around the globe.
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Susan,
"I mean, I do not want a police enforced ban"
Ah okay, so you want a ban which is not enforced - i.e. no ban. Sounds like we actually agree on this one, then. It's just that your 83 was calling for the burka to be "not allowed" and for "a ban" and as regards the timing of this ban, "the sooner the better". That made me think you wanted to ban the burka. But I was getting the wrong end of the stick, obviously. Pleased about that since I prefer agreeing with fellow bloggers when I can. Excellent. I disapprove of the burka but (just as with certain other things I disapprove of but which remain legal) I wouldn't presume to encode my distaste into the law of the land in the form of a blanket ban. Or a burka ban for that matter. By all means prohibit in the workplace, and in situations where the face must be seen for security reasons (e.g. airports, customs, banks etc), plus where it can be proven that the woman is being forced to wear it against her wishes, but that's about it; to go further would be both illiberal and unenforceable.
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155#
But you're not a ladyyyy though are you Taggy? Unless you're turning into Emily Howard from Little Britain... cant imagine you cycling through Exeter in regency period costume on a pushbike...
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If I can still bring a smile to anybody's face then in some way that makes me smile as well. The world is a pretty horrible place at the moment, what is being revealed to others in the papers on incidents in Afghanistan is not new to many people. Some of us had a clue but this is the evidence that so many say didn't exist. This is the proof that it is time to withdraw, to come out, and let the people sort it out. We in England had our civil war, sometimes it is what is needed, Hobbs had it right all along, it is Leviathon, forget the liberals for a while, they can come back when it is all sorted, so that they can have no blood on their hands, but it is time to unleash the dogs of war, we are on the eve of destruction.
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161. At 2:11pm on 26 Jul 2010, sagamix wrote:
Susan,
"I mean, I do not want a police enforced ban"
Ah okay, so you want a ban which is not enforced - i.e. no ban.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Ah, you mean like the "Hunting Of Wild Animals With Dogs" ban, mate?
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160#
You've not just got out of bed the wrong side Taggy, you've definately got an attack of the grumps.
What happened?
Flavio Briatore run off with the missus?
Nigel Mansell cut you up at the traffic lights?
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147 Catch22
I must say that I'm with Fubar on this. Heaven knows, I'm all for silence - can't get enough of it really, and I don't think I feel any less affected by tragedy than anyone else - but I strongly object to being told to remain silent in order to demonstrate publicly how affected I am.
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Andrew,
I have just listened to the parliament channel on the BBC, where they were discussing the death of Mr Tomlinson. The Home Secretary has now just stood up to bring forward some sort of bill on reconnecting the police and the people. You really cannot make it up.
Maybe if there had not been Fred West, Harold Shipman, Mr de Menezes, Dr David Kelly, Ronnie Biggs, al Magrahi, and Mr Tomlinson then maybe we might have a little bit more confidence in our legal system. The first two apprehended then suicide, de Menezes, shot by six illegal dum-dum bullets to the ghead, Ronnie Biggs and al Magrahi freed on compassionate grounds, Dr David Kelly 'suicide' but many issues over possibility of murder which will just not go away, Mr Tomlinson well why no case brought, similar in fact to the problem which the police had over the death of Blair Peach.
Do you know what I was brought up on the old Dixon of Dock Green, then came Z-Cars, but the one thing which sticks with me is the execution of Derek Bentley, where he was subsequently given a pardon in 1998, and Timothy Evans who also was subsequently pardoned, miscarriages of justice, sometimes we should be angry, because there is something seriously wrong, and all of it has not resulted from the war in Iraq.
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166#
Strikes me as the kind of thing that leads to the morbid "Grief & Sentimentality Tourism" that has Princess Diana at one thin end of the wedge and Raoul Moat at the the other thicker end...
Oh well. On that cheerful note, time to go home.
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Andrew, and Moderators,
you are the best. Rather than completely disallow my #136 you have edited it, and with that I have absolutely no problem. So thanks guys, this is why this is the best most intelligent, most well informed, and above all the most influential blog on the planet. A most sincere thank you, so much, without you I don't know what I would do.
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#166
Please don't misunderstand me, I am against all these silences as well. Mind you the powers that be have worked it out, which is why we now have to applaud at football matches rather than a minutes silence. I find all this very manipulative. The people who stand at Wooton Basset are doing a dis-service to the military, they should be angry, don't they understand what is being done in their name, it is not acceptable to follow orders, do the people not understand that Afghan mothers and children are being killed by our brave and courageous soldiers. As for the Quizling Karzai and his corrupt government, and all for nothing, surely even the government no longer believes the keeping terror off the streets of our country mantra.
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I do not believe there is much in these leaked reports about Afghanistan that we had not suspected or really known in our hearts was happening.
However America could have another big problem on the horizon if it is not careful, that of Korea. I do question if Americans knew what they were really doing in having someone as inexperienced as Obama as President at this time. He has no idea how to run the economy and his inability to see anything beyond the borders of America is making him appear very insular and divorced from other important issues of World importance.
It would be very wise for Cameron now to take this special relationship with America with a pinch of salt and reach out to Countries that can help Britains economy. China and India being a good starting point. Otherwise Obamas toxic America could lead to Britain being tarred with the same brush.
There has never been a better time for Britain to strike out on its own and look beyond the EU to the lucrative markets opening up.
hear_today 156
Thank you for your article, I believe Britain should make it very clear to the EU that we will not contribute any more to this expensive club. The EU has brought no real benefits to Britain and has wrapped us up in rules and regulations the UK could do without.
Being a member of this club, in fact, is becoming so worthless that they should be paying Britain to be a member.
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151 Susan
"Clear thinking progressive my........................."
We use three dots (...) to show that extra words can or should be added at this point.
Now we can start again.
Clear thinking progressive my ...
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172.
...funny valentine?
...my, my Delilah?
...what big teeth you have?
...big fat Greek wedding?
...bunions are playing up?
...coat. I'm just getting it.
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mrnaughty2 172
You might but I don't, I like my dots.
So up....................................................
You see its easy when you know how not to follow the crowd.
I could of course do this *** ***
Still naughty if that is the only answer you have to my posts well..........................
Are you now speaking for Sagamix?
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Re Tomlinson: this is why - contrary to majority opinion - I'd like to see the police tied up with as much paperwork as possible. Keep them off the streets and out of mischief.
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Good afternoon each & Andrew.
Re: Tomlinson etc.
Why does the time in which a prosecution can take place not run from the Inquest?
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Why do commentators such as yourself Andrew, and every Labour or ex Labour MP and some LibDem and tory supporters keep asking why 'such and such' wasn't in your manifesto so why are you doing it and 'such and such' was in your manifesto, so why aren't you doing it.
Don't they realise we do not have a conservative government tied to its manifesto or a LibDem government tied to its manifest.
We have a COALITION government who have produced an agreed set of policies to sort out the labour decimation of the UK finances and communist style public services which were/are totally unaffordable for the people who own and work in the private sector who pay for everything the government spends money on.
Of course the majority of policies are conservative biased as they had 4 million more votes in the general election and have substantially more MP's.
I think the coalition government are making some blunders during their first few weeks, but have the support of the non labour voting public.
Labour and the media are looking foolish with their attempts to split the two parties.
Labour are a shambles now, as they were in government. A party in denial hopefully finished for good. We are sick of seeing you wheel out MP's and spinmasters(commonly called liars)who are still totally deluded as they were when in power.
How about the media giving the coalition some support to help this country get out of Labours mess.
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fubar,
"you mean like the "Hunting Of Wild Animals With Dogs" ban, mate?"
Well, on the burka, I was considering S. Croft's proposed solution of a ban which isn't enforced. I'm not keen (I say no ban - apart from maybe workplace, and security situations, plus where there's proven coercion) but I prefer this unenforced ban, this "Croft Ban" shall we say, to going for one which is enforced ... IMO, illiberal and unworkable (possibly a little inflammatory too).
Hunting? I'm with you - I support the current law and I'd like to see it enforced. Although one wouldn't want to see enormous plod resource poured into it, I don't suppose. There are more pressing issues after all; knocking down ailing newspaper sellers, for example ... shooting up Brazilian tourists on the Victoria Line ... that sort of stuff.
But to be less facetious - and to generalise S. Croft's point - I guess there's an interesting question here regarding any ban (burka, hunting, smoking, spitting, tweed jackets with leather patches on the elbow, whatever), and that is: is it ever a good idea to have a law banning something but then deliberately not enforce the law? You know, just to "send a message" that our society finds something distasteful (I'm picturing the tweed jackets in particular, as I type this, but let's keep it general). So, can that be useful? Or should we be a bit more binary about things (?) ergo something is either banned (in which case we don't allow it), or it isn't (in which case we do). Dunno. Inclined towards the latter view probably - more clear thinking - but the world isn't black and white, is it? It's a kind of pale blue.
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Mr N @ 172
"Clear thinking progressive my ..."
Well I know the missing word, of course, but being the bashful type (and slightly uncomfortable with such terms of endearment) I will be keeping it to myself.
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"How about the media giving the coalition some support" - 177
Interesting notion. Wonder how this would work. If you mean drop the puerile and confrontational questioning style, I totally agree - let's have a bit of manners back and let's discuss some policies - but if you mean give these guys an easy ride because they've supposedly got such a hard job to do, then no, don't want to see that happen.
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# 171 hello again Susan - sometime whilst reading your posts there is the slight feeling that I am talking to myself! It is something I often do, as a matter of fact, however the type you instigate is far more pleasant. OK I'll stop waffling and just say that I find myself agreeing with so much in your posts and never more than with your opinions on the EU.
On retiring in 1992 I started to catch up with a lot of reading which my busy life had meant I had only 'dipped' into. I have been a student of history all my life and had no confidence whatever in the direction the EU was taking, as opposed to to the 'common market, free trade' agreement which I had thought we entered. My worst doubts were justified on reading 'The Octopus' by Brian Freemantle ( former foreign editor of the Daily Mail ) published in 1995. As early as 1996 the proposal for a 'federation' and for all treaties in the EU to be consolidated into a single constitution was already being promoted. The CAP was also out of control and, supposedly, under review whilst the criminal element, which had a huge finger in the pie, were running rampant.
Any hope of someone exposing the appalling financial shenanigans was lost when Marta Andreasen tried to do just that. The article by Christopher Booker in July 2009 says it all.
If our bankers don't 'pull their fingers out' soon and start making amends, by helping businesses instead of obstructing them, then I am sure they will end up dancing to the EU's tune and their status will very quickly disappear. They owe us - and Ms Merkel has her beady eyes on their position in the world - not only that but let them look at the progress made by Santander since the take over of Abbey etc.
Joining the EU has become one of the worst things this country could have done and yet I still hear people talking of 'all the money 'they' are giving us'! That then gets me onto the subject of education and the ability to think for oneself - so I had better leave well enough alone. However - if you can find the time, it is a large, packed tome, do try to read this book Susan!
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#137 Susan
Exactly as I supposed, no real evidence to substantiate your claims and assumptions, just more ill informed diatribe. The issues themselves are quite irksome due to the hypocrisy shown by both the US and UK governments. Your obfuscation of matters also tends to occasionally raise an eyebrow, particularly when you claim to be an informed authority on all matters Scottish whilst displaying complete ignorance and prejudice from time to time.
As you are concerned with the poor SNP’s position at the moment they appear to be doing quite well, as they have done so far throughout their term in office. With regards support for independence, whilst numbers have not increased for it outright you should know that there is an overwhelming majority which desire full fiscal autonomy (not the malodorous Calman fiscal proposals).
I’m sure the al-Megrahi issue does not dominate your present thoughts; however it does seem you enjoy every opportunity to have a pop at Scots, the Scottish government or the SNP (your particular favourite). It actually comes across as repressed, misdirected anger mixed with some jealousy.
Clearly you have no interest or knowledge of Scottish history or you would realise just how ridiculous your assertion is that the oil industry alone put Scotland on the map. I did not seek to deny the importance of the oil industry in Scotland, however I merely stated that Scotland does and has more to offer than just this and your vaunted public sector. I see you chose not to comment on the development of the Scots economy post war by successive Westminster governments which would explain this neglect and bloated public sector however.
You may have said from day one that the Megrahi release was done for oil deals, however all you have done to substantiate this is to repeat this same phrase. The only link thus far to any proposed oil deal has been to the PTA, the US and UK governments along with BP are all involved in this, the Scottish government is not. That and the release of al-Megrahi, I’ll repeat for you again just to be clear, are separate issues not to be conflated.
Why should any sitting member of the Scottish government kow tow to a US senate request when matters have clearly been explained through correspondence. The senate is investigating links between BP and the release of al-Megrahi, BP’s only link to al-Megrahi is the PTA, something which the Scottish government does not have to answer for.
Perhaps Jack Straw and the US’s good ole pal uncle Tone should go before the committee to answer for their deal in the desert, or would this ruffle to many US and Westminster feathers? Scotland’s reputation and its government remain intact regardless of what you may think. It has shown itself to be principled in following due process and upholding the laws of its people, whom they are accountable to. Perhaps this is where you having such a difficult time coming to terms with your ‘realism’.
Cameron’s administration has earned some ire in Scotland simply due to his actions during this process. The UK and US administrations have much more to lose when details of the PTA come to light, that and the renewed calls into the Lockerbie bombing itself which neither US or UK administrations seem keen to re-open. I wonder why.
I am sorry you have never encountered the term ‘Scottish diaspora’ before (there is even a centre for its study); again a lack of Scots history is probably doing you a disservice. If you are so inclined may I recommend ‘The Scottish Nation: 1700 - 2000’ by Tom Devine, which would also in part give you knowledge on successive mass migrations from Scotland. Needless to say the haemorrhaging of talent from Scotland which continues to this day does its chances in the future no good and more effort has to be made to retain our brightest and best, as I said before, in a knowledge based economy in conjunction with all of our natural resources.
As to the good people of England if they desire a parliament of their own then they should lobby, campaign and then vote for one. Many Scots now desire full fiscal autonomy, which would gladly put an end to the hollow cries of subsidy junkies and allow us greater control of our economic affairs. It may prove harder to persuade the establishment at Westminster to let this happen however; again you have to wonder why that is.
Regardless of our debate on Scotland as a nation, its economy and people etc. (where we frequently disagree and which you insist on doing down, a great disservice indeed Susan), the media hyped issue of the al-Megrahi release has descended into farce. The US senate committee asking the Scottish government to release documentation sent to it by their own administration, which would have been published just after the release had they been given permission by the US administration is perplexing. Should they be asking some of their own government to appear before the committee, especially regarding the PTA given BP is the focus.
Come on down Tony Blair, now is your chance to shine again and answer questions on the deal in the desert before the senate, and also exactly why Gaddafi gave you that saddle.
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181. At 7:49pm on 26 Jul 2010, YnysMon93 wrote:
"If our bankers don't 'pull their fingers out' soon and start making amends, by helping businesses instead of obstructing them, then I am sure they will end up dancing to the EU's tune and their status will very quickly disappear. They owe us - and Ms Merkel has her beady eyes on their position in the world - not only that but let them look at the progress made by Santander since the take over of Abbey etc."
You may remember the days when VC was on the Liberal front bench accusing AD of not doing enough to get banks to free up monies to help SME's.
A coupe of months on and VC now on the front bench of the government complaining that the banks should be doing more to free up monies to SME's.
The reality is that banks are willing to lend the money, afterall that's their business. However, in these uncertain times SME's are in most cases looking to deleverage. The rates offerred are on average 10% above base and some of the SME's requiring loans do not meet the banks tougher credit ratings. In fact, VC finds himself in the same position as AD.
The only solution would be for the government to offer loans on behalf of the banks of which they own/part own at affordable rates and to take as part of the deal a shareholding in each of the SME's it is loaning monies to and thus is able to take a share of any future profits.
To make it really exciting we could have a television programme where each SME is put in front of a live studio audience to argue thier case for a loan and you could vote yes or no by using the red button.
In the meantime, VC is happy to blame the banks and AD is sitting on the opposite benches with just a hint of the "told-you-so" about him.
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Susan 174
Nothing wrong with your ............. in fact I would go say that they are ........ but I'm however intrigued to know the missing word(s)
Clear Thinking Progressive my ...
I bet it wasn't my ... long haired lover from ...
I hope it isn't anything rude otherwise I would have to cover my eyes, which will cause me a slight problem as these days, when I leave the house, my eyes are of course the only things on show.
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176.
Serious loophole.
Have you seen this link, TA?
http://www.cfoi.org.uk/fois77offence290110.html
I can understand the 6 months limit for minor issues like parking tickets, but for more heavyweight issues like breaches of building regs, like the deliberate destroying of documents as happened in Climategate, and most critically for deaths like Tomlinson's, surely there needs to be a revision of this statute?
Cost cutting suggestion #162:
Dissolve the IPCC. It's pointless.
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Susan 184
Should of course be "my...Sunshine daisy from L.A.
Litle jimmy was never my strongest subject, much prefered Suzi Q.
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170#
"The people who stand at Wooton Basset are doing a dis-service to the military, they should be angry, don't they understand what is being done in their name, it is not acceptable to follow orders, do the people not understand that Afghan mothers and children are being killed by our brave and courageous soldiers."
They ARE angry Taggy, you can be sure of that. But thats not what it is about. The practise that has started at W-B began with the local RBL paying their own respects to men and women that they see as fellow professionals who had paid the ultimate price.
Now, I dont mean to be disrespectful to you because I dont know all your circumstances, but I'm going to stick my neck out here. You remind us quite often of a relative of yours who has been gagged about one of the recent campaigns. You are, with I would say pretty good cause, quite upset about that. But, please correct me if I am wrong, you have not served in the forces yourself, have you?
I say this as politely as I possibly can Taggy, that until you've been in the situation that these men and women have been, I dont think you're going to fully understand why they do it.
Those who gather at W-B for the repatriations are no longer just the local Legion and the people of the town. There are usually a number of others present from the squadron or the regiment of the deceased. Regrettably, there are also the odious Grief Tourists and those who wish to use these solemn unofficial ceremonies for their own political purposes.
But given the sacrifices that these young men and women have made, for those who do turn out at W-B, compared to what it used to be like (the cortege would have no police escort, would get held up in heavy traffic, being cut up by idiotic motorists and be treated like they were carrying no more than boxes of beans - compare that to the repatriation ceremonies in the US and Canada), I salute them; in my book they are showing the kind of values that this country has long since lost and is a lot poorer for.
Dont take your anger out on those at W-B mate. Not until you fully understand why.
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178#
Quite reflective and thoughtful, that. Have to say I find myself agreeing with it as well.
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Andrew,
listened and watched something on the parliament channel last night which was an adjournment debate on car parking charges at hospitals. Now apart from the fact that I must be a very sad character for doing so I thought it most interesting that nobody from the opposition parties bothered to attend, the beautiful green leather seats wre, well empty.
However, I think that we should stop this mantra that we would love to abolish car parking charges at hospitals, but well the money has all gone. I don't know how some people can tolerate the stench of their own hypocracy, has it really come to this, where the public now have to pay to park their cars having travelled long distances to visit their relatives or loved ones. It is alright for people like me, who within walking distance of my foundation hospital, but those who live in rural areas, or with no real alternative to travel, this will be a constant drain on their scarce resources.
I put forward so long ago that there will a government of national unity, only I got the partners wrong, but this will be a disaster, I went to the web site of the Government Office of the South West, redirected, it's gone, all gone. How many have lost their jobs, how much has closing the office actually cost, what has had to be written off, all the equipment, the offices, the desks, the paper clips, what has happened to it all. What I want to see is where is the money going, this is getting worse than Afghanistan. I just hope that all the staff who are losing their jobs have had the sense to employ a good lawyer to ensure that all contractual agreements are met, and hopefully that they get their six years payments so that they too might be sent to Siberia.
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186.
'...Endless Love'.
Lionel Richie, Diana Ross and the ultimate vomit-inducing ballad.
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Andrew,
let's put forward a new hypothesis with regard to Afghanistan. Let us say that at the moment the American star is on the wane, and they don't like it. So, why not call up the four horsemen, let's get India at war with pakistan, two nuclear states fighting it out, and nobody would 'win' that one. The problem is what if the Victorians had nuclear weapons, would they have used it, damning the consequences for mankind, because well we had the Dreadnoughts, and they had massive firepower, so just imagine the nuclear bomb. So, yes I am saying that the Indian sub-continent is still actually saddled with a Victorian outlook, life is still cheap.
So, India and Pakistan go to war, slug it out, send themselves back to the dark ages, and then in Korea. Well China is flexing its muscle, and again America is on the wane, and it was because China helped Vietnam so they are still the enemy which caused the defeat of America, so time for revenge. I know let's get North Korea to nuke the South, China would be brought in to it, and so the Far East is sorted, American hegemony re-established.
Now I know that I can be be seen as some sort of nutter, a conspiracy theorist, but then again how did people look at Churchill during his wilderness years. Sometimes there needs to be people who think and tell us as it is, thinking outside the box. Nobody thought that a Saudi operating with impunity in Afghanistan could bring down the World Trade Center, so why not another war between India and Pakistan, and a nuclear holocaust in the Far East. Watching a video of the attack by the helicopter code named Crazy Horse in Iraq, anything is possible, absolutely anything. The world is made up of the Untermensch and the Ubermensch, and the kaleidoscope has been shaken, and still the pieces have not settled.
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187.
They also serve to remind us of this seemingly futile colonial adventure, more poignant than the now compulsory commiserations read out at PMQs.
We now know the date of the intended withdrawal so one can safely assume, with regret and frustration, that there will be many more such processions.
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Andrew
Some of us have blogged jokingly and very much tongue in cheek that if a soldier apprehended or killed Osama bin Laden, the result would not be a medal nut a court martial. Now from wikileaks it appears that bin Laden has been spotted several times since the turn of the century yet the CIA (who "previously" employed him) stated categorically that no sightings had taken place in the same period.
This from the Guardian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/26/afghanistan-war-logs-osama-bin-laden
The powers that be must think we are all thick.
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Catch 191
I see that NR's back and that Hd2 has already been moderated. Hd2 won't like that. Having just read your 191 I think I'll stick around with the likes of yourself, Blame, Coats and hopefully Susan. When the World ends at least we can say that "we told you so" and in the meantime worry about which one of us is to arrest the other under the do-it-yourself policing revolution.
In the Times today there's an guide as to how to "Plan your Games" (Olympic). Apparently here in the South East the people are most keen on seeing wrestling. Living in the South East I can truthfully say that I've never been asked, but yes having thought about it a while, there are some kinds of wrestling that I think could be most entertaining.
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194#
Any particular kinds Mr N? Not ones from Duran Duran videos from the 1980's perchance?
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Good morning each & Andrew.
185-TBG, thank you.
The law is indeed a ass(et), when one can pick and choose.
The law has suffered in tandem with politics of late as Old-School has been replaced by New-School. With continuity appearing as the Dockyard Engineering of old, "It fits where it hits".
Some things, though, never change. Take; Section 22* of the
Culpability Avoidance Through Contrived Horology principle.
Which would lay out; in the darkest ink on the darkest parchment of our beloved constitution.
That no body shall be allowed to inflict on another body the slightest harm where said allowance could result in the merest semblance of as of right a body being anything other than a public body.
Hence the old music hall ditty...
"When a body meets a body things go oft awry"
Democracy or no; laws are there to suit the state//the sou-or-so to compensate.
We shall have to wait for the Inquest or Judicial Review. Now that we have a Supreme Court things may have to be seen to be done; justice and the like.
* With apologies to TAG.
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ScotsInNotts 182
For goodness sake get that bag of chips off your shoulder. For avoidance of doubt, I DO NOT ACTUALLY CARE about the Megrahi issue or for that matter the SNP either. The Megrahi issue was brought up in a general way, in a post because it was topical. I am entitled to an opinion, or would you like to impose censorship on me, as the SNP try to do on anything they do not like.
You cannot prove Megrahi was not released for oil deals either, so why make such a fuss. However there is some evidence to suggest he was, as you well know. The medical evidence for instance is suspect and the guy is still alive and likely to live much longer, that sort of gives a slight indication that the diagnosis was wrong. Then there are other things which I am not going into because of the strict moderation on the BBC.
You state that the Scottish have some anger towards Cameron because of the Megrahi release. How would you know, you do not live there, and why, he was not involved with this decision. If Scotland as you say made this decision independently for compassionate reasons, it has very little to do with the UK Government at all. Cameron merely stated in opposition that he thought it was the wrong decision, a position he has not moved from. It is really for Salmond to explain why he was released.
What would you have the rest of the World do, send back all the Scots who have skills to Scotland. I wonder how many of them would go, having no job and probably a life of poverty. Much as Brown and Goodwin were sent back across the border after destroying the UK, no wonder they are in hiding. Better still if you have such zeal get yourself back across the border and persuade your own people to vote for Independence. Bet you will not do that. Then how would you decide who was Scottish enough to return, as like England, people come from a mixed bag of culture. If as you reckon you know your history you will know this. Then there is all the recent immigration to make up for the declining population, are they going to be sent packing because they do not want to embrace pure Scottish culture. I have heard the term diaspora in relation to the Scots used in Scotland by the SNP, I was pointing out to you how ridiculous it was to liken the Scottish to the disperson of the jews. Another SNP invention.
I do not do the Scots down, it is you that is doing that by not being realist and living in the real World. I lived in Scotland, I still have friends there, who may I say do not share your view of the World, I know its history which I studied whilst I was there, and I know the history of the oil industry too. I would suggest it is you that do some research and not leave it to the SNP to tell you history from their point of view. Perhaps you have been away from Scotland too long, and certainly if I felt as passionate as you do, I would not spend another day in England.
I note you say that Scotland has more to offer than the oil, but neglect to tell me what that is. Furthermore you have the Government in Scotland that you want, so why has there not been large improvements in the economy. Instead under this administration the public sector has grown and the banking system none existent. Instead of the 'Arc of Prosperity' that Salmond promised we have the 'Arc of Despair'.
Scot in the end ordinary people in the UK including Scottish people are more interested in how to live day to day. How to meet the challenges ahead in this age of austerity, Megrahi and the SNP do not even figure on their radar. As for myself, my opinion is this, how long do you believe that the other people within the UK are going to put up with this 'I want my cake and eat it' attitude from the SNP. The Scottish people have their own destiny in their own hands. They are what 6 million people approximately the rest of the UK is 60 plus, why do you expect these petty problems to be of prime importance to the rest of Britain, when there are so many other important issues coming down the line. At the moment Britain is in economic decline, winnning business to secure the future of the UK and cutting our debt being just two. We are entering a new Global age where the balance of power will no longer be held in the same hands. As the World is changing and culture becoming a missed bag of all sorts of people from Countries all around the World, the SNP is making Scotland more insular and isolated.
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194
Yes, I believe wrestling is massive in the South-East, which gives lie to the 'softy southerners' label so unjustly bestowed by northerners.
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Fubar 187
Makes for interesting reading.
Would the PM or the previous PM be a "Grief Tourist". I understand that either one of them visiting WB prior to the election would have been seen as cynical to say the least but perhaps all three party leaders should have arranged to have visited on at least one occassion. Don't know difficult one this?
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Andrew,
I would like to say a few words in support of BP as it seems someone should and in view of the action Greenpeace have taken today. This company will be in decline now as assets are being sold off and it will be open to take overs. I disagree with Vince Cables rosy view that BP will be back on its feet in no time.
BP has a long history and has stood up to the challenges over the years that the oil industry has gone through. As much as it breaks my heart to see the evironmental damage this spill has caused, America should take some responsibility for this. Britain learned a very hard lesson with the Piper Alfa disaster. Improvements in safety became of prime importance. The Americans do not operate under should strict rules, I believe, and already, I would imagine, feelers will be going out for some of Britains safety advisors, in oil, to go to America. Companies operate under the rules provided by Government and it was just BPs bad luck that it was one of theirs that caused the spill. The demand for oil is ever increasing, America being one of the worst culprits for wanting ever more fields. To BPs credit they had embraced the new green age in their 'Beyond Petroleum' and were making some headway in spreading the new technology after oil. America have really had no interest in this, no matter how much rhetoric Obama uses to say the opposite.
Operating in deep water is extremely challenging and dangerous. Some credit has to be given to BP for finding new ways to deal with this spill, technology which can now be used should this ever happen again. This they will share with their competitors for future reference.
As to Tony Hayward, vilified by the American Government. Put aside Obamas ridiculous rants, people like Hayward have worked for years under the pressures the oil industry brings. They are remarkably calm under all circumstances and are used to soaking up the massive demands put upon them. They have to be unemotional to make the day to day decisions that this industry demands. They have the lives of people in their hands on a day to day basis and often their decisions can have effects that normal workers cannot understand. I believe he is well respected in the industry and I would imagine this will be why BP want to hold onto him and Russia pleased to have him.
Hayward has not done bad for a lad who I believe came from an ordinary state school Andrew.
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197.
Susan, could your worst nightmare be...
being forced to wear a tartan burqa? :-)
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Some are quite right, I have never, and never even thought, that I would ever 'serve' my country by joining the military. The very thought of it is anathemna. However, my father was a senior officer in the Royal Navy, my older, and younger, brother both signed up, my sister was in the WRAF, and my sisters husband was also in the military. I used to go to parades on week-ends, and used to see the way in which the military 'used' people when it suited them, and dropped them as soon they became passecd their sell-by date.
As a child I also studied the Great War, and yes I fully understand the whole concept of comaraderie, and the 'pals' and signing up, and being caught up in the uniforms, the parades, the service to your king and country, none of that is lost on me. And yes, you can probably tell that I am not the sort of team player that the military need, and exploit.
When people go to church, and see the flags, and memorabelia of war, the drum, and the heroes of yesteryear, yes the regiments have a history, only trouble is that it is so yesterday. So yes I do understand, but I I also see the utter futility of having countries, borders, different nations, when in all seriousness we are all human beings, on one planet. But most fundamentally I have to say that I was brought up to not only believe but also to know that it is wrong to kill, but also that the soldiers doing their duty actually committed suicide, no different to the suicide bombers of today, only the se days they take somebody with them.
So, I also come from Plymouth, with the terrible losses which the people suffered from bombing during WWII, and the massive memorials to all those who left the City, and now lie in some watery grave around the globe. I was amazingly proud of my son at his passing out parade from the parachute regiment, and was also so proud when he was eventually accepted into Special Forces, but that does not mean that I agreed with his decision, he had choices, and he has found out for himself, it is his experiences, which I could never replicate, which resulted in him taking his own decisions.
Others have referred to the example of the parades in America for their returning dead, that is why W-B started, because that is how it works. Give the people a parade, stiff upper lip, honour the dead, stick the national war memorial somewhere in the middle of England, keep it out of sight, give the people a reason for all this carnage, the dead women and children, I mean Harry with his stupid, 'We do bad things to bad people' with his Ghurka guards, with his calling up an air strike to kill people, this is crazy, pathertic, and when will people understand that the Afghans have their flags, their drums and pipes, their history, their glory, the whole stinking paraphanelia of war, and why? What is the point of all this, to keep terror off the streets of our country. Well just look at the papers released at the outbreak of WWI, how did this come to pass, just how did we end up like this. It was known within days of August 1914 that it all went so terribly wrong, and do you know what, the MPs went on holiday days after WWI was declared.
So, you can probably guess that I do know about soldiers, the military, and I wish that I could have the courage of Jan Palach, but what would it achieve, it would just be another wasted life, and will never end the killing, so I sit here typing, angry, yes, but all so terribly sad that others just carry on, that others just don't get it, I still don't, but should I and others stay silent on the basis that some people might get upset, well no, actually, because that is why we have the ability to think, but is thinking enough, well not really.
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201 Blame
That and an arranged forced marriage with Sagamix.
200 Susan
A few words of supoort for BP from the wildlife of the Gulf of Mexico. Burble, Burble, thanks for nothing, burble burble.
Another person being rewarded for failure!
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As far as grief tourists go maybe we ought to have representatives at the funerals of the dead women and children in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Pakistan, or does twenty pieces of silver show how much we really care about the foreigners.
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199#
Yes, an interesting quandry. Like I alluded to yesterday, the thin end of the wedge had Di at its apex and the thick end is the thousands who contributed to the "Raoul Moat, You Legend" facebook page.
The current or former PM, if they were going to be anywhere near these repatriation ceremonies should be on the tarmac at Lyneham when the C17 lands. As representatives of the government that sent them there, they should be the ones "welcoming" them back. W-B is for the locals, primarily. Their comrades from their squadrons or regiments are more likely to attend the funerals, particularly if its a full military honours service, unless the families decree otherwise, which I dont think is very often.
No, what I was referring to was the likes of Griffin and the EDL attempting to make political capital out of the repatriations, not the current or former PM's. Brown didnt give a damn, Cameron I'm not so sure. Probably stays away through political expediency more than anything else.
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190 Blame,
... Coo ca Choo.
Alvin Stardust dressed in Black Leather. What ever happened to him? Still touring probably on the back of his two hits.
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200#
I wonder if there'll be anyone out there unable to get petrol who will resort to blockading any hippie health food shops in retaliation? I'd be up for it. :-)
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197. At 10:36am on 27 Jul 2010, Susan-Croft wrote:
I have heard the term diaspora in relation to the Scots used in Scotland by the SNP, I was pointing out to you how ridiculous it was to liken the Scottish to the disperson of the jews. Another SNP invention.
I thought he was referring to the effect of the Clearances? Which were visited on the Scots by Scottish landowners as well as English ones, but even so his point and his use of the term were valid if that is what he meant.
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202#
Fair enough Tag. Now I understand your reasons.
Sorry to say though mate, as pure and simple and idealistic as the "one people" idea may be, its not the world we live in and you're kind of swimming against the tide. I'm not saying you shouldnt, but all you'll notice is that your arms will get very tired and you wont appear to be making any forward progress.
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205 Fubar
"The current or former PM, if they were going to be anywhere near these repatriation ceremonies should be on the tarmac at Lyneham when the C17 lands. As representatives of the government that sent them there, they should be the ones "welcoming" them back."
Hear hear.
Griffen I'm trying my upmost to ignore on the basis, hte less publicity he gets the sooner he may hust fade away. Wishful thinking probably.
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YnysMon93 181
Organised crime was always going to be a problem with open borders as the EU now has. This can only increase to point where it will be very difficult to control. As more Countries have joined the EU, this massive club, that the EU has become, is now accountable to no one really, certainly democracy has been left far behind in the grapple for power within. The costs are rising, the regulation more punitive and the control over our justice system more ridiculous by the day. Countries are being swallowed up into this mass experiment of backdoor federalism. The UK should make a stand against higher payments to the EU, regulation and further integration.
As to the banks what we need is more competition in the market. Stop all the punitive regulation that is proposed which will make lending more difficult. Good regulation does not necessarily mean more regulation. Run off toxic debt and allow bad loans to be called in. Encourage deposits by giving a reasonable rate of return to build up the capital base within banks. Allow lending rates to business to be more in line with offical bank rate. Now there is less loose lending for mortgages this should take the pressure off this side of the market.
The EU has for a long time had its eye on Britains Financial Capital and with Vince Cables proposed policies the UK will be handing it to them on a plate. Also Brown not securing an economic position in the EU will ensure that all the punitive regulations from the EU will fall on the City of London.
I am not at all in agreement with naughty at 183 this would make our economic position worse and printing money again more likely.
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#209
If only I hadn't nearly drowned when my father tried to teach me to swim, you know the times, just let go and you'll soon learn, only it didn't work. Oh, and yes my arms are very tired. Isn't it funny though because if only we all had the ability to know what has made us what we have become. Is it luck, I don't know, Are there events, times, people we meet, books we have read, which shape us, how is it that some people seem to have insights which some of us lack, who are the leaders, who are the led, how do we become the leader of the pack, Terry, as he rode off into the night, accelerating his motor bike Terry thought to himself what is the answer?
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#205
Griffin, now what have I done!!!
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Its_an_ Outrage
I do not think so outrage, this word is usually used in relation to the despersion of the jews. Which was not at all the same.
In any case how far do we want to go back in history to prove a point. Should I upbraid William for 1066 giving our lands to his Norman Lords. Or James I of England and VI of Scotland for giving English lands to his Scottish Lords and starting the whole idea of a Union between England and Scotland which has caused so much trouble.
And so on.............
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mrnaughty2 203
Why failure, he got to the top of BP that takes some doing anyway, but from state school that is even harder.
Trying to be funny when you are not, thats failure.
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212#
"Isn't it funny though because if only we all had the ability to know what has made us what we have become. Is it luck, I don't know, Are there events, times, people we meet, books we have read, which shape us"
Indeed. Its all of those things and many, many more besides.
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#208 IaO
Every dictionary I've referred to specifically relates the word 'diaspora' to the scattering of the Jews or the Jews living outside Israel.
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203.
...and living in Cuba.
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I am Spartacus. Being part of the Plymouth diaspora exiled in Exeter, what fate awaits the Greens. I know its nonsense but life is getting too heavy again. What on earth are we to do whilst Andrew, the beautiful Jo, and the long legged beauty are missing from our screens for the holidays. Catch wept into his fast cooling coffee, oh doomed all so doomed. Maybe Somerset will save us, off to watch the cricket, enjoy the break.
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215
Add in the fact in his time as CEO BP discovered huge oil reserves right under the noses of the US oil majors. Not only Gulf of Mexico but also an enormous and yet to be finally quantified off the coast of Brazil in conjunction with Petrobras. The US chose to demonise hayward but the direct chain of command of US operations points to Mr Dudley who quite remarkably has escaped all censure. But then Hypocrite is Obama's middle name.
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Catch22 219
Catch you are not leaving us for long are you, because I will miss you if you are.
I had a chance to read your 202 and I found it very moving, there is nothing wrong with having high ideals. Indeed in my book, stepping out from the crowd and saying what you believe is to be applauded.
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"Indeed in my book, stepping out from the crowd and saying what you believe is to be applauded." - 221
Why thank you, Susan. I need to hear that sometimes. Helps me stay strong.
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216 Fubar
What's even funnier is that we are actually living on a speck of dust in an explosion!
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211 Susan
I'm a little surprised, but then again maybe not, that you cast aside my 183.
It is based on the idea of linking business's and banks. The banks themselve's become a shareholder of the business and therefore have a major say in the running of the business.
If the business is doing well the banks has the means to invest, but the banks also carry the risk of failure, as a major shareholder.
Banks as a shareholder, will also have the ability to lend moneys to new or start up business's nore freely because again they are able to make much more of a financial gain and have a major say as to the running of the business. A new business may fail but not because of the lack of investment required in its infancy, as many currently do in the UK.
As the business grows and develops, the banks shares in the business can be diluted.
In some cases such as Chorus, the banks could take over the business as majority shareholder until a new buyer is found therefore protecting the jobs at risk. Of course, the banks will only do this if it is a viable business but may be willing to stay involved with the new owners again as a major shareholder.
The banks would have no problem lending moneies to the Sheffield Forgemasters, if they were to become a major shareholder.
So is this possible? I see no reason why not, afterall we own some of the banks and now have major shareholding in some of the others.
Regarding your comment about printing money. I believe that we should always look at long-term investment rather than short-term profitability.
Perhaps now that I have explained the concept fully, you will be in agreement?
Re your comments regarding Tony Hayward. He is/was the CEO of BP. Very important position. Is BP in a stronger or weaker position when he left than when he took over. In the Capitialist world people live and die by financial results, not what school you did or not attend. He has left BP in a weaker position than when he took over and as such and for ever reason his tenure at BP must be considered a failure. So yes, you may feel sorry for him as it appears that the events were outside his personal control but he was right to go but because of BP's financial results (they lost billions of which some of our pensions are dependant upon) he was not entitled to a huge pay day.
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excellentcatblogger 220
Dudley has been brought in to appease the Americans, which I believe is wrong. If my memory serves me correctly Bob Dudley was also considered for the CEO at the time of the appointment of Hayward. He was not thought to be of the same calibre as Hayward.
Hayward has been the only victim up to now and unfairly so. However, I do believe BP should go after the partners who were involved in this oil production venture and recoup some of their money. Thus giving them chance to keep BP alive and pay the compensation payments which will occur. At least that is what I would do.
In the end this company has been allowed to be bullied by a President who is looking after his own interests. The lack of support from Britain has been a contributing factor. In the end though it is because generally the oil industry is not understood. The public just believe it happens by magic from the pumps at the local Texco. What the Government of Britain and the public do not understand is that if one element of the production of a field goes wrong, the guy at the top carries the can.
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I have just read elsewhere on the BBC that two boys have had their appeal rejected. [they had been convicted of attempted rape, they are now about 11yo]
This is part of the Appeal Court's judgement...
"The Appeal Court upheld the trial judge's decision to let the jury decide if the girl was a reliable witness..."
Why is it that no jury can decide how reliable a post-mortem was?
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"Every dictionary I've referred to specifically relates the word 'diaspora' to the scattering of the Jews or the Jews living outside Israel." - 217
Well apparently with a capital D and preceded by the ("The Diaspora"), it has the specific meaning you refer to; but with lower case d and preceded by a ("a diaspora"), it has more the general meaning of a people displaced from their homeland. Like it, Mike, actually - not the idea, the word. Am going to find a way to use it myself before the week is out. Perhaps when I next go to the dry cleaners.
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#221
Somerset victorious, so I can come back. However, still not well so will have to say nighty-night, will miss you all but do not despair because nothing can keep Catch down for very long, just amazed managed to reach 61. If I can still bring a smile, even on the corner of the luscious mouth, well then I can be a happy, and just smile sweetly, and say missing you already, and I can hope that others miss me as much as I will miss you guys. Nighty night. Sweet dreams.
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@277
How does that fit in with the new website Diaspora promoted as a facebook alternative? Unless it is students displaced from home.
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Saga, thank you; couldn't have put it better myself (and might not have bothered). I wonder how you'll use the word. Will he get in first?
"Pray, where are my shirts, Mr. Dry Cleaner?"
"Diaspora, mate, sorry.".
Griffin.
Surely he and his blackshirts should be given as much opportunity to face the cameras as possible, so that people will see what utter nonsense they talk?
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Just occurs to me: what do you get when you mix a "people displaced from their homeland" ... from Birmingham, say ... with an orange coloured root vegetable?
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http://amfix.blogs.cnn.com/2010/07/27/live-blog-chat-with-us-during-the-show-81/#comments
News from across the pond.
Watch out for Melon's comment.
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231
Jasper Rust? ;)
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232.
Makes you wonder about the 'Special Relationship'.
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In the immortal words of Roy Walker, Tom, that's good - @ 233 - but it's not right. Was more thinking of the well known (although completely bald) midlands based comic, Exodus Turnip.
About time some of his best stuff got repeated on UK Gold, I'd have thought.
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Saw him live once (in Boroughbridge, of all places). He was the best live comedian I've ever seen. I thought he went downhill later, when Sun readers became his audience instead of his material.
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Blame 233
Very Special.
Look out for number 3.
http://hubpages.com/hub/The-American-National-Debt-Who-Do-American-Owe
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Andrew,
I am getting very worried about it didn't quite work out that way with Team Andrew especially after listening to the Today programme this morning.
You see what they were talking about was some sort of manual of psychiatric conditions. I was a little bit sleepy, but not having been bitten by a midge or Tse-Tse fly. This might get mixed up with being tall because apparently I am more at risk from being bitten by a midge as I am above average height, and my BMI is also above average. However, I digress.
You see any psychiatrist would realise that the words I use might mean that I suffer from a psychiatric condition, or might at some time in the future, so I had better stop talking about my late father, at which point a little tear forms in the corner of my eye indicating a feeling of sadness, or is it something deeper than that, I don't know. Anyway, you see I digressed there so is that another mental condition, oh dear now I'm getting worried.
Anyway, you see whatever I do must have a name, a title, my anger about the occupation of Afghanistan, what is it that I suffer from, I need to consult a psychiatrist at a vast hourly rate, and I don't mean watching an episode of Frazier, or is it Frasier, does a spelling mistake indicate a problem, am I dyslexic, do I suffer from low self esteem, am I reacting against not following in my fathers footsteps, oh dear, now look what Team Andrew has done to Team Catch.
I really should stop listening to the Today programme, there is so much to fear, another condition, and as for the news. Well there was the report on Ms May and her new Bill, when they referred to Europe as a country, that seriously worried me, and now it is reported that we are to export something nuclear to India, they must have read my piece yesterday on the impending wars between India, Pakistan, North and South Korea et al, and American hegemony.
Now I know this may seem like one of my usual rambles, but my brain is working overtime worrying about all the conditions which we in Team Andrew must suffer from, we had all better listen out for the knock on the door, good thing I am not an obese pregnant woman, or am I, do I look at my long well toned, bronzed legs and worry about the fractured femure I suffered as a boy, what psychiatric condition do I have as I listen to the profits of my gas supplier. I must go and get my copy of my mental health journal, oh dear Andrew, please come back, don't go on holiday, must do some more research. Doomed I must have a psychosis, then I can be normal, but then what is normal, you see they've been reading your blog, and the comments. But then who are 'they', oh Team Andrew, you see even wanting to be part of a team, help, I need somebody, anybody, even Susan would help, keep smiling!
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Andrew,
you see one of the problems is that I remember the news from the old USSR, that anybody who disagreed with the State must be mad, so was confined to a psychiatric hospital on the basis that the State did so much for you, any criminal act, or dissent, must mean that you were, not to put a lable on you, but you must be totally 'mad'.
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Oh Gosh,
it has just got worse, I have listened to the continuing story on the Today programme, now I am seriously worried at being at risk of psychosis, I think that I had better sign up for a research programme, or join in a public consultation. Is there something which is not normal, oh Today programme now look what you've done, if I read the War Logs does that mean that I am not normal, it 's funny isn't it because for some time now I have often referred to this 'normality' so can we accept that, oh a bit of soothing music on the Today, none of us is actually 'normal' it's all about statistics, one of my favourite subjects.
If I find anything of interest, well because you see everybody is interested in what I am now going to study with the wonderful Open University. So having got my B SC and B A (Hons) PPE I am now going the whole hog and going for either Philosophy & Psychological Studies, or even better Computing with Psychological Studies, you see I prefer being in control and I can't control people, but I can control my computer, I am in control, so accordingly I am a control freak, which I am sure is another psychosis, and does the fact that I am different make me normal, because would not a State where everybody was normal be an awful place, a bit like North Korea.
At this point the team of analysts working for the State of North Korea are doing a word search and identify that North Korea are being referred to and are even as we speak a team of letter writers is formulating a letter saying that North Korea is a wonderful place, maybe a bit short on food, but not on nuclear weapons, which will be used if the Americans insist on having a military excercise off the coast, and for those pedants it would be the nuclear weapons which would be used, not the food, Team Catch smiles at that one. However, should we as Team Andrew stop listening to the Today programme, or should the Editors of the Today stop reading your blog.
Finally, I wonder if David Cameron, or Nick Clegg, will be on the runway when the victorious Team GB return from their exertions in the European Athletics like what that person who used to be PM did when Team GB returned from the Olympics.
Oh, just listening to where childrens social services has increased productivity to the extent that some social workers have 120 children on their case load, unbelievable, that's the problem, the social workers have too many children, they can't possibly do the job properly with such a case load, above all else it just isn't fair on the social worker, it is work in progress alright, but the answer is not to overload the front end with work. I pointed out a couple of days ago where Devon County Council budget was under pressure because the case load budgeted for 600 children, and they were already up to 650 children, this is good news and bad news at the same time. Yes they are looking after more children because of Baby Peter, but do they have the resources.
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mrnaughty2 224
I have already said what I think about your banking proposals so I will not repeat myself.
As to Hayward, any oil company could have found themselves in this position. It is to BPs credit that they kept on a good CEO to see them through the difficult operation of containing the spill. It should also be noted that Hayward is remaining as advisor to Dudley through the coming difficult period. This gives you some idea of how good the man is. It is not a matter of feeling sorry for anyone, it is a matter of what is good for the company concerned. There is no failure there, the remarkable way BP, under Hayward, have introduced new technology to solve this problem is remarkable. This will in turn help other companies, including American ones, in the future. BP know very well if they allow him to leave the company he will be snapped up elsewhere. Thus the reason he will be going to Russia and in time, I fully expect to see him emerge in a much more important role.
The Americans expected Hayward to cry all over the place and play to the audience. These men are not like that they have to be cool and unemotional at all times for the job they do.
As to his payout, ever heard of contracts, that is a legally binding deal between the company and the individual. That includes pension rights. As it is Hayward is not going anywhere but to Russia which is a very important job anyway.
The problem is you see there are very few people who reach this level of expertise, including yourself. I doubt very much if you would hand back the money you have earned, if the situation arose. But you would of course, because you would not want to be accused of being a hypocite, now would you?
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237. At 06:43am on 28 Jul 2010, mrnaughty2 wrote:
Blame 233
Very Special.
Look out for number 3.
http://hubpages.com/hub/The-American-National-Debt-Who-Do-American-Owe
==================================================
I have been searching on the web for the UK equivalent, but no joy until I came across a BBC article:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8530150.stm
Halfway down the article this little gem of a sentence jumped out and smacked me in the face!
"Next on the list comes investors overseas. Unfortunately, nobody keeps records showing in which countries these gilts are held."
Unbelievable. Every shopkeeper, trader etc up and down the land has to keep records for audit and tax purposes but selling gilts overseas nothing. I bet the market for forging UK gilt certificates is booming.
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Andrew,
with regard to the appalling death of Khyra Ishaq it really should be understood that the poor young girls mother was Angela Gordon and it is reported from the Birmingham Post that 'Ishaq Abuzaire said he married Gordon in 1995 after meeting her just three days earlier at their local mosque'. Now I think that there are serious concerns now coming into the public domain about marriages of convenience, or arranged marriages, or even forced marriages, and I would like to hear that the government is looking into what exactly is going on. I think that there ought to be a public inquiry into the whole issue, which might also look into the fraught question of men forcing their partner into wearing the burkha. This is a question of equal rights, and equal opportunities, it would seem that the feminists of the sixties have gone very quiet, mainly I think because the women are not quite middle class enough.
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Andrew,
with so much being made of our immigration policy it is really great news that Mo Farah, born in Somalia in 1983 who came to this country in 1993 as a ten year old refugee has won Team GBs 10,000 metre final at the European Athletics Championships. Is this one in the eye for those who want to shut the door on immigration, what with the example set by a certain Zola Budd from all those years ago, it's all about medals now. As for the 'England' cricket team, well the skys the limit, maybe the England football team ought to include a few players who are not English but play in the Premier league. In fact lets get rid of the concept of countries from the World Cup, it is where you play that matters, a sort of English league against the Spanish, German, or French leagues, I think you follow my drift, get rid of nationalism, get rid of borders for everything.
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#242
look into the web site for the CGO Central Gilts Office, most of it is now on computer, and don't get me started on SWAPs. There are very few Gilt certificates now in circulation, and most of the big institutions use nominee names. Now if you were referring to bearer bonds, and over the counter dealing, that would be an interesting subject. I say bring back Exchange Controls.
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Shutters down again at Chez Robinson. At least they're guaranteed never to go off topic.
Wonder if he's going to return to proper blogging once the "5-Days-When-We -Wondered-Whether-Gordon-Would-Have-To-Be-Dragged-Out-Of-No10-By-His -Fingernails" show is broadcast, or because the Westminster bubble is enjoying its annual summer deflation, whether he'll bother blogging at all?
Or, whether as rumoured, he'll be moving on to new pastures on the R4 Toady show?
Ho hum.
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245
Thanks. I followed the link, which in turn pointed to CRESTco which in turn led to EuroClear UK and Ireland (merger between CRESTco and Euroclear bank). Am I right in thinking that our national debt that was managed by the bank of England is now managed by an European institution?
We are so doomed, as you point out on a regular basis.
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#227 saga
I wasn't expressing an opinion - just reporting a fact (I only have a limited number of dictionaries in the house). And in all of them the lower case d was used, indicating a general meaning.
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Catch22 243
The truth is Taggy the womens movement has run out of steam and no one has the guts anymore to be interested.
You may well ask what happened to the women of fire we once had. They have been silenced as Britains culture has changed. Now, no one dare say anything that may upset one minority or another. We have become politically correct, therefore, all the efforts made in womens rights of the past have stalled.
In politics, women have become little more than window dressing, in most cases. Harriet Harman has done much harm, by her constant attack on men in the work place. Also far too many privileges has been given to women over their male colleagues at work. This has led to companies not wanting to employ women of child bearing age. Harman does not seen to get, that it is actually other factors which have diluted womens progress.
Successive Governments refuse to give a lead on the behaviour which undermines women, wearing of the Burka, forced marriages, teenage pregnances, the importance of having a career for women and many other factors. These are the important issues. Not whether a man passes a comment or jokes about things in the office.
We are moving backwards actually in some respects.
It is also unfortunate that we have women such as Caroline Lucas, who could have made a real impact as the only Green MP. Instead she has managed to alienate people who would vote this way, because she is now effectively just another Labour minister. Her policies are so in line with Labour that no difference can be seen between them. Does she not realise that people who may be right-wing are green too. She has this annoying habit of losing concentration and goes off on tangents. She has complete tunnel vision and has not lived up to expectation. All this has led to, is a general view that a man would do things better, because they are less emotional. The same is true of D. Abbott. Teresa May is perhaps the only good one amongst the bunch but needs to lift her profile.
In the end I do not believe as things stand we will see many women of quality coming down the line in politics or high profile jobs in the near future.
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Good Morning.
Still struggling with world economics 101 (but stil;l fascinated). Posting above (ECB,MrN2) reminded me of something I'd puzzled about. The link provided some answers and prompted some others. We don't have gross and net National debt because we don't keep records of who owns our debt.
So, for example, does our government own any of the £200bn of USA debt in the UK or is it all 'privately' owned?
Similarly, do other countries own part of our debt (even if we don't know exactly who or how much) while we (the UK government) hold part of these?
Is the Bank of England a private entity or an arm of the government? When they buy large amounts of guilts as in recent times, is the government effectively buying up its own debt?
Please take pity, some of these may appear obvious to you or even 'stupid' questions, but you could save me a lot of time and searching. Comments, answers, links and refs gratefully accepted. Thanks
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246. At 09:25am on 28 Jul 2010, Fubar_Saunders wrote:
Shutters down again at Chez Robinson. At least they're guaranteed never to go off topic.
NR's is a wierd blog. Sometimes it's up for a week and sometimes half a day. You can sometimes wait for a couple of hours for something to be posted - not surprising that it drifts off-topic, becase the news is history by then (and why is that such a problem?). I suspect that his heart isn't really in it, and frankly, neither is mine.
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#241 susan
Unfortunately, BP have had a very poor record on safety in recent years - including a fire in Texas, a pipeline failure in Alaska, and a few others besides the current one. They might have some good engineers and managers, but there's obviously something wrong in their system/code of practice. The failures can't all be put down as 'unavoidable accidents'. Cutting corners doesn't pay off in the long run. Ask the bankers and Mr Brown.
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#242
Your figures are indeed absolutely astonishing. However, let us go back to the Russian and Chinese Revolutions, and all the pther ones. Consider that during the sixties people realised that some of the old bearer bonds issued by the Russians and Chinese actually made very attractive framed pictures, or lamp shades. Could it ever be the case that America is playing a very long game here, and that when they owe loads of money to everybody that they will just turn around and say revenge is best tasted cold, that they will default on all their debt, and say, what are you going to do about it, go on, what are you going to do, invade us, bomb us, because you ain't got a chance. I see the day when unlike our wonderful Gilts, nobody else's debts are as Gilt edged as ours.
Some bonds look so beautiful, fantastic art work, one of the best which I can remember is IOS (Investor Overseas Services) Bearer bonds, the woman was just so fantastic, every mans dream figure, yet the company which issued them, well look it up for yourself. Oh I'll save you the trouble it was Bernie Cornfield, and was a template for every pyramid selling scheme ever after, I mean you only have to look at the UK State pension for another example.
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mike-jay 248
Mike this is the proper meaning, your dictionary is correct and Sagamix is wrong as usual. However, I have found it pointless to argue on these issues with him because you just get loads of worthless posts designed to wind you up.
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246. At 09:25am on 28 Jul 2010, Fubar_Saunders wrote:
Shutters down again at Chez Robinson. At least they're guaranteed never to go off topic.
Going off anywhere might be inadvisable to get 'in window'. It's like an online version of Douglas Adams' HHGTTG 'Beware of the Leopard' file... 'but you had your chance and didn't take it!'.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/nickrobinson/2010/07/act_in_haste_re.html#comments
Act in haste, repent at leisure
Frankly, if one doesn't act hastily, you're stuffed.
16:44 UK time, Monday, 26 July 2010 - Thread posted
At 4:56pm on 27 Jul 2010 - Thread closed
Actually, 24hrs is better than some post & pull stunts he's overseen.
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#249
I think that another issue which needs some more attention is the continuing practice of female circumcision. A practice which must be enforced, but then again there are now women who want to be tightened up down below after childbirth, the look for the perfect body, what on earth is going on!
At least the Spanish province of Catalonia has banned bull fighting, high unemployment rate but Spain seems to be winning everything, even the publicity battle. Maybe unemployment does have its plus side.
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249. Susan-Croft
'It is also unfortunate that we have women such as Caroline Lucas, who could have made a real impact as the only Green MP. Instead she has managed to alienate people who would vote this way...'
What 'way' Susan?
The Green movement isn't just about planting trees. All parties have some policy or other about being eco-friendly, if that's what you're referring to.
The Green Party actively promotes women's rights more than any other mainstream party. I'm surprised you're not a member, Susan.
btw Caroline Lucas would wipe the floor with May in a debate. (IMHO!)
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Wasn't correcting you, Mike (248), was just giving my take. I like to add value to the Board when I can (which is always). A holocaust versus the Holocaust. Type thing.
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mike-jay 252
Unfortunately that is the nature of the beast, you either have perfect safety or you have oil these days. Companies particularly now are having to find sources of oil in very difficult places, BP in particular. It can be deep water etc. The Alaska pipeline was tested to death for any strain or chance of leekage for instance. No one can guarantee when you are working under these circumstances that nothing will happen. When you are having push the barriers on new technology, the result will always be unpredicable, I am afraid. This is why managers are paid higher salaries in the oil industry because they are taking such difficult decisions everyday. Their life is not their own because they can never leave their work behind them.
If America and other places in the World want perfect safety they must accept less oil and much more expensive oil. It is really as simple as that.
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Yes (picking up on MJ @ 252), quite some parallels between Tony Hayward and Gordon Brown, aren't there?
- Both talented and extremely hard working guys from relatively ordinary backgrounds who made it to the very top of their profession.
- Both much better at the nitty gritty of the job than at media and public relations.
- Both achieved great success despite a significant physical handicap ... Brown partially blind and Hayward rather short (certainly well below average height for a British male).
- Both hit by disasters on their watch (the Gulf oil spill and the global financial crash and consequent recession) for which they were not really to blame but for which - as Top Cat - they had to take responsibility.
- Both thus lost their jobs and are no longer Top Cats.
Harsh but fair.
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243
This case also raises concerns on the suitability of certain individuals being allowed to migrate to these shores. I suspect that certain countries are quite happy to get rid of the flotsam that exist in their own societies through migration. For example, do you really think that the Roumanian government is agonising over the plight of Roumanian gypsies living on the streets of London?
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249 Susan
In the end I do not believe as things stand we will see many women of quality coming down the line in politics or high profile jobs in the near future.
Ditto for men - the selection process discourages people with real life experience instead we have the PPE qualified clones, who for all their good intentions have no real life experiences to fall back on.
Whether you agreed with their politics or not the politicians whose views had been formed through experience of great events, such as WW2, brought a gravitas to proceedings that is sadly missing in the professional politicians that prevail today.
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Hope you're not going to be a diaspora denier, Susan (254). Seriously though, the word is very often used in the Jewish context but it also has a perfectly valid general meaning. Pretend it's not me pointing it out if that helps. Pretend it's somebody like Tony Hayward.
Now then, what's this? (@ 249) ...
"Harriet Harman has done much harm, by her constant attack on men in the work place."
Maternity rights, yes I see you mention those (and you're none too keen by the sounds of it) but what else? What are the other main weapons in her "constant attack" on the working man. Elaborate if you will. I'm interested because I've always quite liked Harman but no way will that continue if it turns out she's been attacking men. I am a man after all. Wham bam I am.
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257#
Lucas is a watermelon.
Green on the outside.
Red on the inside.
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Good afternoon each & Andrew.
@259. Susan-Croft [good to see you]
The expense of oil will not change, but the true cost borne by the end user and not by strangers far away;Nigeria, Cameroon (I wonder how he is doing?)
That is the price of safety, surely?
"difficult decisions", as in...who cares as long as I get my shedload of cash?
OK, so there is pressure to go get it, but is there so little concern about the true cost?
Oil executives are in the same boat as other big-businessmen...on the public dole. They win-win and the small guy pays through the nose or with his life.
Alas, we must get the money to wage wars from somewhere. I suppose.
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Blame 257
Sorry I did not realise the Greens were your party of choice.
Actually I was being kind about Lucas, I saw her interviewed before the election a couple of times and it was embarrassing. The reporters had her so tied up in knots over her unaffordable, ridiculous policies that she did not know whether she was coming or going.
Since then she has gone on to make further gaffes apparently. However she is either Green or Labour and she needs to decide which.
I never said green issues are about just planting trees, however a right-wing person is just as likely to care about these issues as a left-wing person. Therefore the Greens need to appeal to both, if their main ambition is to see Britain as a Green Country. No, Blame she is just another Labour person in a different wrapping.
Are the Greens promoting womens rights, I am not aware of it, so it must be very low profile. Anyway she supports all this, I will say nothing that is not politically correct, as well, so theres no difference there.
I would never vote Green, they just want to bleed everyone dry of cash for their interpretation of Green. The biggest way to solve the Worlds problems, in my opinion, are massive cuts in the birth rate. Nothing else will help much. Certainly not massive windmills which are becoming a blight on Britain landscape. Designed to annoy the eye, make people ill who live near them and say 'look how green we are'.
There is a World of difference between being a thinker (Teresa May) and a mouther like (Caroline Lucas). One is substance the other is not, and eventually one overtakes the other by understanding the real issues.
Sorry Blame thats how I feel.
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260#
Stretching it a bit in places mate. Tony Hayward didnt have the assistance of the Talibrown to get him to the top. And, I dare say Hayward didnt spend ten years plotting a putsch and then didnt have a clue about what he was going to do when he finally got the big chair.
He also, I would venture wouldnt have had four attempted coups against him in three years.
You consider being "short" to be a physical handicap? Blimey. Poor old Ronnie Corbett. Poor old Prince. Poor old Paul Daniels!
And as for the "had to take responsibility" bit... sheesh, when did Macavity ever take responsibility for anything? He was never there!
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meldrew (250),
Re your Qs:
"does our government own any of the £200bn of USA debt in the UK or is it all 'privately' owned?"
The debt is held by both. Don't know the split.
"Similarly, do other countries own part of our debt (even if we don't know exactly who or how much) while we (the UK government) hold part of these?"
Yes, that's right. Not all countries but certain ones.
"Is the Bank of England a private entity or an arm of the government?"
It's wholly state owned but is independent from government on monetary policy (or so they tell us).
"When they buy large amounts of gilts as in recent times, is the government effectively buying up its own debt?"
Yes. And if they use "QE" to do this, they are effectively printing money.
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Tom Austin 265
No, Tom it is the consumer, yourself probably included, that needs to understand. You are either prepared to do without your car and goods are more expensive because oil is at a high price. Or you accept that the price is kept down because oil companies need to make, what could be unsafe ventures, in new places. It is no good the public whinging when the price of oil goes up because oil companies dare not explore in difficult circumstances for fear of safety.
The other point to bear in mind is a great deal of the profits earned by oil companies goes into new ventures. After drilling at great expense they may have just a dry well, the money is lost. Large profits are needed to provide these costs.
It is not the oil companies who are making your petrol expensive at the pumps, at present, it is the Government with tax, who like the public to blame the oil companies.
I am not making a judgement here, I am telling you like it is.
I will say this, these guys, like Hayward, who do these jobs are worth every penny they earn and more. The pressure on them in the work place is enormus. From protecting the workforce as much as possible to being on call 24 hours a day for any problems arising. Keeping production running and meeting targets. You cannot believe how difficult their lives are. They are often burnt out early through pressure.
That is why the public do not understand Hayward, keeping calm and unemotional, is a very important asset in this work.
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#197 Susan-Croft
“For goodness sake get that bag of chips off your shoulder.”
Indeed you should Susan. Far from wanting to censor your thoughts or opinions I welcome them. If anything you serve as an example of certain attitudes within the UK towards Scotland, the Scottish government and the SNP. Frankly I got fed up reading your unchallenged waffle regarding said issues and felt like posting a response to your opinions. All the better to spread knowledge on certain issues and educate those that will not be educated.
Speaking of which you might want to study at the Scottish Centre for Diaspora Studies in the School of History, Classics and Archaeology at Edinburgh University. Perhaps you’d like to take up your issues with the term ‘diaspora’ with them, as I neither misused or created this definition. As I understand the term as used, it refers to the large migrations of Scots at varying periods throughout history, including those in the 20th century.
“You cannot prove Megrahi was not released for oil deals either, so why make such a fuss.”
Why, because you continue to peddle conspiracy theories with no evidence or any credible motives for one on the part of the Scottish government. That such a deal was being formulated by Blair in part due to BP’s lobbying through then PTA is fact, perhaps you can explain the link between that and the Scottish government to substantiate your opinion. You cite the medical evidence as somehow being ‘dodgy’, are you denying that al-Megrahi has terminal prostate cancer now or are you disagreeing in your medical opinion with regards his prognosis?
“You state that the Scottish have some anger towards Cameron because of the Megrahi release.”
I could use your explanation and say that it is merely my opinion, however whether I live there or not does not prevent me from visiting friends and family frequently and therefore listening others opinions on the matters of the day. Further, perhaps a perusal of public letters sent to the press could give you a taste of public opinion in Scotland regarding Cameron’s performance in the US.
Cameron decided to play politics with the issue, just as Obama and the senators coming up for re-election have done. That he also attacked the Scottish legal system was collateral damage and I’m sure of no consequence to him, but it was clearly observed in Scotland.
His ‘respect agenda’ in working with the government of Scotland rang hollow when he gave his speech at the White House. He is perfectly entitled to state that he did not agree with the decision now or when in opposition. However to say that it was wrong is to undermine and ignore the due process of the Scottish legal system, hardly endearing himself to those voters north of the border. Perhaps he calculated that that hardly mattered to him or his government, and he’d be right, although I’m sure his colleagues in the Scottish Tory party won’t thank him for it.
“If Scotland as you say made this decision independently for compassionate reasons, it has very little to do with the UK Government at all.”
You are correct that the release based on compassionate grounds has nothing to do with the UK government. The US senate committee was investigating links with BP to the release; there are no links between BP and the compassionate release. There are however links between BP and the PTA. Two separate issues which many including you continue to conflate.
“What would you have the rest of the World do, send back all the Scots who have skills to Scotland. I wonder how many of them would go, having no job and probably a life of poverty.”
What an odd idea Susan, whoever suggested mass repatriation, sounds like the policy of an unpalatable element in UK politics. Many of those that have left will never return, that cannot be helped. Others may choose to return in time, the chances of which increase if there is something to return to.
I, however, was alluding to the future by stating that we should do more to retain our brightest and best. How else to further develop your economy, no use if the educated and skilled, having gained that education and skills in Scotland, then have to leave to put that to use. The rest of that particular paragraph descends into frothing about ethnicity. I don’t remember ever mentioning anything to do with that subject and find it quite repugnant that you would go down that road.
“I would suggest it is you that do some research and not leave it to the SNP to tell you history from their point of view. Perhaps you have been away from Scotland too long, and certainly if I felt as passionate as you do, I would not spend another day in England.”
I have done plenty of research and reading on lots of history, not just Scottish with a particular liking military history, especially Napoleonic. I have to say I must have missed the SNP history classes that you attended, were they any good? And there you go again with the ethnicity thing, really is disconcerting Susan. That I have issues with how Westminster has run Scotland does not equate to having issues with England or its people and its pretty offensive that you imply such a vile notion.
“I note you say that Scotland has more to offer than the oil, but neglect to tell me what that is. Furthermore you have the Government in Scotland that you want, so why has there not been large improvements in the economy. Instead under this administration the public sector has grown and the banking system none existent. Instead of the 'Arc of Prosperity' that Salmond promised we have the 'Arc of Despair'.”
Far from neglecting to tell you I stated it clearly, its natural resources (not just oil) and its people. Scotland still produces skilled and educated people that can help to develop the economy. There are expertise in both electronic and biotechnology industries. As to why the economy has not developed in Scotland under the SNP, are you being serious Susan? I was under the impression that the majority and most definitely the major economic controls were retained by Westminster i.e. the pathetic Labour administration that you also decry.
Full fiscal autonomy please (preferably independence), so that we have responsibility for all economic controls (not the unworkable Calman proposals), and then perhaps we can see some improvement and development in the Scottish economy. As I have said before it is a damning indictment of successive Westminster governments that have neglected to do so since WWII, replacing heavy industries with public sector jobs and no other alternatives.
“We are entering a new Global age where the balance of power will no longer be held in the same hands. As the World is changing and culture becoming a missed bag of all sorts of people from Countries all around the World, the SNP is making Scotland more insular and isolated.”
I am fully aware that there are other issues Susan, as I’ve already stated I could no longer stomach reading your unchallenged waffle regarding al-Megrahi, Scotland etc. and felt like posting a response to your opinions.
Perhaps you’d like to tell Westminster and maybe they’d stop charging into conflicts around the world, the days of empire and consequently our position in the world has long gone, Westminster is slowly beginning to catch on to that fact.
On the contrary, instead of making Scotland more insular and isolated the SNP has sought to establish closer links with Europe and the US (pre-Megrahi furore, which will resume after the media storm). Perhaps one day soon they can cut out the middle man and out those links to good use. Scotland has as you noted welcomed migrants, as Scotland has done previously.
Far from ‘wanting our cake and eating it’ we’re looking for ultimate responsibility, with a majority of Scots according to recent polls wanting full fiscal autonomy. It remains to convince Westminster to allow this to occur; again you neglected to offer an opinion of why they would not desire this. Independence requires the persuading of those Scots that view Scotland through your eyes as some kind of dependent state uniquely unable to fend for itself.
The Westminster three will tell you that Scotland gets a better deal as part of the union while refusing to let Scotland go her own way. Those that are comfortable in believing it acceptable to continue in this beggar like dependent way aside, what do the rest of the UK think about this and why would the Westminster politicians want to retain such an obvious drain on resources for.
There’s some realism for you Susan, something doesn’t tally, either we’re all sponging subsidy junkies living in the lap of luxury at the expense of the rest of the UK, in which case why not get rid, or the Westminster politicians want to retain us a little longer. Any ideas why that is?
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The Green Party policies are well Left of Labour in many areas, demonstrated by the fact I like quite a few of them. As for Lucas, I'm sure she has her bad days but I've seen one or two storming performances by her. She did a very good Question Time a while back, I remember that one quite well. So, where does a right wing but very environmentally conscious person go? That's a very good question; when I next meet one, I'll ask them and report back.
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264. Fubar_Saunders wrote:
'Lucas is a watermelon.
Green on the outside.
Red on the inside.'
Fubes, time you started writing some original material. :-)
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253
The approach by the UK and the USA differ markedly. Most of US debt through bond/gilt sales is to overseas investors. But in the UK the sales have been to the pension/insurance companies. I do hope that this investment choice proves in the longer term to be a sound one. Perhaps the US has already utilised its muscle to encourage foreign investors to buy the US bonds?
On the UK side I see that further down the list that banks are in the mix. Is it too much to hope that the bailed out banks are not involved? If they are it really is "Alice in Wonderland" economics.
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#259 susan
High tech firms operating at the cutting edge of new technology do not behave in the way you depict. All such companies, these days, have detailed procedural methods, developed from past experience, testing and analysis specifically designed to minimise the risk of any kind of failure. Most of them employ reliability engineers to statistically assess the probability of any event, or chain of events, occurring.
In circumstances where this is impossible, a reputable company would simply not go ahead with risks that could not be quantified to an acceptable degree.
It has to be assumed that BP would certainly not act in such a cavalier way unless someone in the organisation was making dubious decisions. This would include subcontracting work to companies that did not meet the necessary standards.
I find it difficult to believe that the series of serious problems in recent years is a result of pure chance. For example, your claim that the Alaska pipeline was 'tested to death' - presumably under the correct environmental conditions with an added safety factor buit in - does not accord with the fact that it failed. What was the conclusion of that investigation? Was it sufficiently independent and was the cause something completely unforeseen? Or was it a cover-up fudge?
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266. Susan-Croft
'Actually I was being kind about Lucas, I saw her interviewed before the election a couple of times and it was embarrassing.'
It's all about perceptions, Susan.
Some people think Gordon Brown is a genius.
I agree that the Green's policies and their funding don't always see eye-to-eye. But I empathise with their principles and agree with just about all of their policies.
Of course it's always easier to be ambitious when you're nowhere near the seat of power, but I like the cut of their cloth. (Hemp, I believe)
Ultimately I do not have unswerving loyalty to any one party.
wrt population control, you're in favour of the Chinese solution?
ps Teresa May has the same effect on me as nails on a chalkboard.
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Afternoon Andrew,
just what is the ConDem coalition doing with this AV referendum date? Granted the Tories never wanted it in the first place, however Clegg is looking more foolish by the day on this issue.
His comments at the dispatch box are at best disingenuous and at worst blatant fibs. To imply that there are objections solely because others believe Welsh and Scots voters can’t handle two votes at once is a complete farce.
That voters (including is some parts English council elections) will have to vote using two separate ballots in two related elections is not the problem.
The issue is however the media coverage of the respective campaigns. At the time of the Welsh and Scottish elections where will the media machines attention be, on the AV referendum. With little media coverage will the results of the Welsh and Scottish elections be affected by the focus on an AV referendum, more than likely, consequently as at Westminster elections Plaid and the SNP suffering the press squeeze
Also with the proposed introduction of fixed term parliament at Westminster (as is the case in Scotland already), there is also the prospect of another election clash with Scottish elections in 2015. Unlike the AV referendum, this time the Lib Dems are concerned with the clash. If Clegg advocates two ballots on one occasion then why not on another?
The Scotland act under which devolution occurred does not allow for any other elections to take place on the same day as that of the Scottish elections, although apparently legislation is being prepared to alter this. Bottom line, you can move you Holyrood elections if you want to even though you had already established those dates.
Most embarrassingly for the Lib Dems is that they didn’t take into account the differing constituency boundaries for Westminster and Scottish elections (I’m unsure if this also applies to Wales), as reported in the press. As a result some voters would have to vote at two separate polling stations probably affecting turn out, the argument currently being used as an objection by some Tory and Labour MP’s.
Another clear signal of the proposed ‘respect agenda’, I’m beginning to wonder if it was meant sarcastically
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ECB @ 261
"I suspect that certain countries are quite happy to get rid of the flotsam that exist in their own societies through migration. For example, do you really think that the Roumanian government is agonising over the plight of Roumanian gypsies living on the streets of London?"
I'm sure they're not (agonising over it), no. Neither are we agonising over, say, all the British criminals who've chosen to settle on the Costa del Sol. Course, this doesn't mean our government actively encourages native born "undesirables" to move elsewhere (not since the "£10 poms" anyway). Are you saying you suspect other countries (e.g. Rumania) are guilty of doing exactly that? Steering certain sections of their population (such as those you mention ...gypsies) to go live in the UK?
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fubar,
"Lucas is a watermelon. Green on the outside. Red on the inside."
I know what you're getting at but this is not quite right. She doesn't particularly hide the red bits, does she? (see manifesto). No, she's more a lettuce and tomato salad. Which is very appropriate, since I like those and I like her.
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Mind you I also quite like watermelons. Bit messy though sometimes.
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254. At 10:37am on 28 Jul 2010, Susan-Croft wrote:
mike-jay 248
Mike this is the proper meaning, your dictionary is correct and Sagamix is wrong as usual.
Sorry, can I just butt in here to say that whichever 'dictionary' Mike is ising is quite wrong, and that Saga is 100% correct?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Susan (269),
"I will say this, these guys, like Hayward, who do these jobs are worth every penny they earn and more. The pressure on them in the work place is enormus. From protecting the workforce as much as possible to being on call 24 hours a day for any problems arising. Keeping production running and meeting targets. You cannot believe how difficult their lives are. They are often burnt out early through pressure."
Astute and knowledgeable comment from somebody with an excellent insight into the oil industry at senior level and into big business generally?
Or sycophantic drivel.
(Secret ballot.)
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Re 270 ScotsInNotts
Susan - surely it's OIL?
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272#
Yeah, yeah mate, tomorrow, tomorrow..... :-)
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278#
Lettuce and tomato salad???
What, bland, tasteless until seasoned and is composed of about 80% water?
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277#
I think what was meant was "not exactly encouraging them to stay at home by giving them better prospects and showing them they are valued".
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Not many of the Parliamentary ladies seem likely to shine very brightly. The two who seem to stand out are Sarah Teather and Caroline Lucas. I also liked Geraldine Smith but, incredibly, after two recounts, she was cast into the black pit of obscurity by a baying mob of Daily Mail devotees.
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Scot in Notts,
If fiscal autonomy has majority (or close to it) support in Scotland but independence does not, why is that do you think? What's going on there?
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279
Come up with a seedless watermelon and you're onto a winner.
Political fruits:
Cameron - Mango. Florid skin, refreshing... but 80% pip.
Brown - Coconut. Very difficult to reach, hard to crack, promises much, fail to deliver. (acquired taste)
Straw - think of the slimiest fruit imaginable.
Osborne - Straw, but available only in Waitrose and M&S.
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277
I would not use the term guilty. If you like there is the precedent set by the British when penal colonies were formed in Australia, when we "exported" some of our criminals all those centuries ago. No reason why it should not happen today. Considering what HMG gest up to in our name (illegal wars, torture, extraordinary rendition etc.) this really is a very minor misdemeanour.
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# various
Caroline Lucas seems to be a throwback to the era of Michael Foot and Scargill, but with an even greater lack of recognition of feasible economics and political practicalities. Her short-sighted views pay no regard to future scientific and technological development, which is where true green solutions will be found.
She could find an ally in Ed Miliband - if he's not careful.
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285#
.... oh and I forgot - add "drenched in oil to taste"
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If you like (FS @ 285), but I'd more say fresh, uncluttered and very very good for you.
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mike-jay 274
I never suggested for a moment that BP were being cavalier with their safety. If mistakes have been made only an investigation into this spill will tell this. It could be down to the partners in this venture not behaving as they should, it could be down to many factors in deep water. As with other oil companies if there are mistakes they will then be fined and new rules put in place. I do not believe the BPs safety record has been that bad considering the ventures they have made. Most oil companies have partners these days, most have contractors working for them, that does not make them dubious. These are really big operations not small projects which testing and analysis can make then completely safe in all aspects. Somewhere in these massive operations something can go wrong, most times they will put it right and no one suffers, just sometimes they won't.
The point I was making is if it is an established procedure the safety is easy from the point of view that one knows what to expect. If a problem occurs you are going to know what to do and how it will effect the outcome. However with the ventures that are new and in deep water or other, you can do all the testing in the World and still have a problem. You can expect certain outcomes and they can still be wrong.
I do believe BP did all they could to make sure the Alaska pipeline was safe. However no one can make the oil industry completely safe.
Right from the moment of stepping onto a helicopter people are at risk. There was a crash recently when 16 men died, no one could find the cause. It is just the way it is. You have established rigs and they develop problems. Fire, corrosion and various other hazards are always there. Most times it works out ok but there is always the chance it will not.
However as I said in one of my earlier posts the US does not have such stringent rules on safety as Britain. This perhaps should be a more important issue for the American Government and its oil companies than just chasing BP.
However with the best will in the World you can never make the oil industry completely safe.
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TheBlameGame 275
yep the amount of people in the World is the biggest threat to the Worlds resources, so yes I am in favour of population control.
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285. At 2:32pm on 28 Jul 2010, Fubar_Saunders wrote:
278#
Lettuce and tomato salad???
What, bland, tasteless until seasoned and is composed of about 80% water?
It depends very much on the quality of the lettuce and the tomato. Even better if you add some oil.
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"Her short-sighted views pay no regard to future scientific and technological development" - 291
How do you mean, Mike?
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"No reason why it should not happen today." - 290
No, guess not. Just that your 261 read as if you were saying you reckoned it was happening - e.g. with the gypsies from Romania.
Quite a thought actually, isn't it? Every year - every day even - a bunch of people emigrate and another bunch immigrate. In they come and out they go, with the "they" being completely different individuals. Then on top of that we have births and deaths - out they come and down under* (or up in flames) they go. Plus life expectancy all the time increasing. Although not for you and me.
* the ground, I mean, not Oz.
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295. Susan-Croft wrote:
yep the amount of people in the World is the biggest threat to the Worlds resources, so yes I am in favour of population control.
Limit number of children? Mandatory birth control?
How would you enforce these in predominantly Catholic countries?
Big ask.
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mike-jay @292
The fairies at the bottom of the the garden have all the answers?
Perhaps we should do something right now...just in case.
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"the amount of people in the World is the biggest threat to the World's resources"
The amount of people, yes, and plus the usage profile. Certain people - the Americans spring to mind, but also the likes of us - have consumed (and continue to consume) rather more than their "fair share" of what the world has to offer. Wonder if there's any way to rectify this other than a potentially painful realignment of living standards? I do hope so. Science and technology, I guess, is where we must place our faith. Thank god some very clever people still go into those fields. Or at least I'd like to think they do.
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#280 IaO
As I intimated to saga, I have no opinion on the rights or wrongs of 'diaspora'. I merely reported the definitions given by the Concise Oxford English Dictionary and Chambers Twentieth Century Dictionary.
Maybe you are right and they are wrong.
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ScotInNotts 270
Sorry it took me till now to have time to read your post.
Scot what do you think these continuous angry posts from you achieve?. You say things which are designed to get a reaction and I reply, probably in a way that makes you even more angry
Have I changed my mind on anything, no I have not. Have you changed your mind on anything, no. I am probably more interested in Scottish politics than most in the rest of the UK, but there comes a time when going round and round the same subject has to end. You have your views on Scotland and do not live there, I have my views on Scotland and I do not live there. Therefore both points of view are as valid as each other.
It is then up to the reader decide how they feel.
I can do nothing about Independence for Scotland that remains in others hands. I have said already I do not disagree with Independence if this is what the people of Scotland want. If they want to stay in the Union then the SNP are going to have to accept the Government of the UK. Unless they are prepared to force Independence on the people of Scotland.
Nor can anyone persuade people of talent to stay in Scotland if they do not want to. The whole of the UK has suffered economic downturns on occasions not just Scotland. It is the North of England that suffers the most at these times, not Scotland.
There are many issues for England that I feel quite passionate about, but I know other bloggers have a different point of view, and that is their right. You however want to force your views on me and to be honest are starting to sound a bit desperate.
The SNP is losing ground in Scotland and I have the feeling that possibly under a new leader they will turn to Labour. Perhaps this is the source of your anger and not me, I hope so because my views will not change.
If this means so much to you, I seriously suggest you return to Scotland to campaign for your Countries future, no matter what the cost.
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#294 susan
I didn't suggest that you had said that BP had been 'cavalier', if you refer back to #274.
However, I can assure you that no company would operate in the way that you are assuming. Assessment and management of risk in all areas of engineering is a well-established and highly professional discipline, and where human lives are concerned extreme care is always taken. It is never a matter of just putting things right when failures occur and then carrying on as usual.
As I said before, the laid down procedures - including carefully maintained logs of 'lessons learned' - are specifically designed to achieve pre-determined probabilities of failure. Also, the spate of BP failures, have not been directly related to deep water drilling (even the current one originated on the rig, as far as I know). Consequently conventional procedures should have ensured that risks were negligible. In any case, even deep water drilling is part of BP's expertise and experience.
As you say, an investigation should throw some light on the cause of the latest failure and it will be interesting to see what might have happened.
I'm surprised that the cause of the helicopter crash couldn't be found - unless the helicopter was unable to be recovered. Aircraft investigators are quite astonishing, in my experience, when it comes to pinpointing the origins of a failure. I've seen them at work.
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294 Susan
Having had some experience of dealing with oil companies [not BP], I must say that whilst I can only admire their ingenuity in constantly pushing the technical boundaries forward, the flip side is that their risk taking culture manifests as a rather gung ho attitude to controls and safety.
BP in particular has been rather accident prone. The oil companies are also quick to litigation themselves, when things go awry.
The industry will never be risk free but maybe the balance of risk vs progress needs to be redressed.
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Mike @ 302
"Maybe you are right"
I'd say so - but only in the sense that we're saying the word can be used (validly) in both the specific Jewish context and more generally, as indeed it can.
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288 sagamix
"If fiscal autonomy has majority (or close to it) support in Scotland but independence does not, why is that do you think? What's going on there?"
In my opinion its another step on the journey towards independence. Granted there are those who would desire independence to happen tomorrow (and those that would not), however it would appear that voters by nature are happier with a more gradual rather than an abrupt change.
First we voted for a Scottish parliament via devolution.
Secondly the Scottish electorate elected, albeit a minority, SNP government (note both previous governments called themeselves executives and were both Lab/Lib coalitions). While voting for the SNP does not directly imply support for independence it does remain one of the partys core principles.
Subsequently a referendum proposed by the SNP asking whether Scots desired independence, full fiscal autonomy or the status quo was planned to be held during its terms in office, however it has been opposed by the three Westminster parties despite there being a clear majority of the public wanting one to be held (it should be said from both sides of the debate). Apparently the timing wasn't right due to economic considerations and still isn't, but it is right to hold one in Wales on further powers being devolved and one on the same day as the next Scottish elections on AV.
The populace, including Scottish business leaders, see full fiscal autonomy as vital to developing the Scottish economy; especially in light of recent events whcih have shown why it would be better to have control in such areas. It would also cease the debate on Barnett and the media myth of the subsidy junky. It remains to be seen whether the Scots electorate will get to have a vote on full fiscal autonomy in an independence referendum, and if a majority vote for it whether Westminster subsequently relinquihses control. (It should also be noted that full fiscal autonomy would require Scotland to control all tax receipts and income from its natural resources. As oil is ex-regio at the moment there is a debate to be had another day.)
While it may appear full fiscal autonomy is the next logical step towards independence and certainly desireable there is however the danger that the journey stops there, leaving important decisions (reserved matters) still outwith the direct control of the Scots electorate and their government such as defence, energy policy and foreign affairs.
Therefore while full fiscal autonomy is now felt as a requirement among most Scots there are those that do not wish to sever all ties with the union, particularly on defence and foreign affairs issues where the UK still punches above its weight on the international stage. It remains to be seen for just how much longer the UK can live on its past glories, and whether we can afford to or accept taking part in foreign interventions on the scale we have been at present. Perhaps then those that fear to take that final step towards independence will finally choose to do so. Direct control of such decision and direct representation on the international stage is preferable to representation by a middle man that may not have you interests at heart.
While support for independence has a solid base of around 30% there has been a gradual decline in those against the idea outright to also around 30%, leaving that vital 40% to be persuaded either way.
A gradual shift towards independence, no matter how excrutiatingly slow it appears to some, is still preferable to losing all momentum. Next years elections should be interesting, and unfortunately I don't think we can discount the Labour party rising from the ashes, mores the pity. It will be especially interesting to see where the Lib Dem vote goes if the expected collapse of their voting base comes to fruition.
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m-J @291. (297.)
'Her short-sighted views pay no regard to future scientific and technological development'
Examples m-j?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/apr/29/green-party-science
'This isn't an analysis of economic policy, which I suspect is a good thing for the Greens, but certainly they appear to understand the importance of science and technology to Britain's future prosperity.'
You're not suggesting we roll over and accept everything in the name of progress, are you m-j?.
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303 Susan-Croft
"Scot what do you think these continuous angry posts from you achieve?."
I could ask you the same thing however I have been responding to what you have posted on certain issues, no more and no less. It appears that you do not approve of me doing so. I will always challenge blatant misrepresentations and inaccuracies from those that claim to be informed on the issues discussed. Your obsession with where I'm domiciled due to my moniker has an unusual impact in your responses on my competency to rebut your assertions, even when courteously I've already explained myself to you on a number of previous occasions regarding my personal circumstance (which are none of your business otherwise I might add). I will not do so again.
"The SNP is losing ground in Scotland..."
An oft repeated, and I'm sure comforting assertion from you Susan, one which is again unsubstantiated. I have no doubt your views will not change, I never expected them to or to persuade you on anything. My intentions in responding to and challenging your assertions are as you put it, for the reader to decide. I'd much rather that than the casual reader taking your posts as fact when at times they are anything but.
That being said I do enjoy reading your posts on other issues not pertaining to Scotland or the SNP. While I may not always agree with you on some of these posts too it is interesting to read your take on current affairs.
Apart from repeatedly trying to get me to move (see explanation above on personal circumstances), I'm quite happy taking part in this and Brian's blog as the extent of my current involvment in politics. Perhaps one day I may be just take you up on your kind offer.
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"It is then up to the reader decide how they feel." - 303
Well that's a relief! Think I'd go for "interested but not necessarily forever" at the moment. How do we think Scotland would get on, btw, as an independent nation? From strength to strength? Or a bit of a struggle? Guess it just depends on how well governed they are, the skill and diligence of the populace, sector specialties, quality of infrastructure, amount of natural resource to be exploited, state of the wider global economy ... all these things and more.
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#300 TA
Do what right now? Work a miracle to change human nature by taxing and bullying? You'll need the fairies at the bottom of the garden to do that.
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#297 saga
Simply that she has shown herself to be of the "tax 'em and lecture 'em" and the "holier than thou" brigade - you approve, no doubt.
Any rational person knows that science and technology will eventually solve the 'green' problems. It's a fallacy to think that the way forward is to change human nature (see 311) by half-baked government 'initiatives' of the kind that have been trotted out in recent years.
I know that she's got a certain elfin appeal, but please...
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mike-jay 304
I think you are misinterpreting what I am saying
I never said; that people just fix it and go back to normal, of course there are precedures, that there were was no risk assessments, that extreme care was not taken in all areas relating to human lives, lessons are not learned, indeed Health and safety would soon make sure you did.
What I did say is; there are always risks, such as fire, gas releases, H2S, well blowouts, dropped objects, helicopter instances etc and there are precedures and drills on all these potential threats to mitigate against them occurring. One thing people need to remember is that not like onshore you cannot just walk away or out the door. You have to have competent people who are able to manage these emergency situations. Each company has an onshore emergency response organisation to support these organisations, if an emergency occurs. And they can occur, no matter how much safety effort you put in.
What I did say was that BP was operating in deep water which is difficult and this was very deep water. To my knowledge up to now no one knows what caused the spill, unless you know something I do not.
The helicopter in question where lives were lost, not long ago, as far as I remember, just dropped out of the sky. It is possible it was human error, but I believe the cause was never found. The only reason I mentioned this was to point out that all offshore issues are risky even the transport to the rigs.
I am not assuming Mike, I don't do that.
What I did say is that all the oil companies try their best but you will never elimate risk in the oil industry.
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#308 blame
Your guardian reference seems to confirm my views - they still fell down on science and technology at the last election. Read the conclusion.
No need to roll over. Just focus on progress.
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309. ScotInNotts
Scot, you may not be the right person to ask...
I don't always follow Brian T's blog but whenever I visit there I come away with the feeling Blether'ing Brian isn't always exactly 100% nonpartisan.
And it's not the SNP he favours. I say this as a bona fide neutral on Scottish politics.
Am I way off here or is there something in that, do you think?
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MJ @ 312
Ooo no, you have me a bit wrong there, Mike. Science and technology all day long for me (301). A belief in their power to change the world relentlessly for the better - to save us, if we wish to be dramatic - is absolutely integral to being what I am. A clear thinking progressive. This is also why I'm sunny side up on this stuff, rather than the doom & gloom one tends to encounter sometimes. I don't fear scientific and technological advance (in any and all areas of life), I embrace it. I root for it every time. Inventing a new energy form, for example, or a revolutionary, superspeedy and pollution free mode of transport is vastly preferable to taxing Chelsea tractors out of existence. Least in my book it is. But these things are not mutually exclusive, are they? You seemed to be implying that Lucas and her party are anti science and technology in some way and I'm not aware (per what I've heard or read from them) that they are.
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#315 TheBlameGame
I'm glad to hear you peruse BT's blog on occasion. It would be welcomed if you chose to also comment, its always good to hear other views on a subject.
Brian does his best to present a balanced view and positions on all sides of his chosen topic/s. Sometimes he achieves this better than others but on the whole Brian does a reasonable job. I might add that he is also usually fairer than the rest of the 'Scottish' press (esp. Scotsman), including other BBC programmes such as Scotland Today and Good Morning Scotland.
There is the rare occasion it is clear he knows which side his bread is buttered, however that is to be expected. Its not in his best interests with regards current employment to be in favour of independence after all. The same could be said for the rest of the media and the interested parties involved therein. He has also got himself into some embarrassing situations, the divide by zero incident that the rest of the press ran with unchecked was paricularly funny until all had to issue a retraction.
Impariality is in the BBC's remit, however I can imagine it may be difficult at times, especially if there is pressures from on high, to retain that impartiality in his writing.
In any case, any time only half a story has been presented or salient points omitted by Brian there is usually a poster somewhere that points this out.
The posters for the most part are also fair minded and balanced and welcome debate with those that hold a different position (although there are those that require reeling in on both sides of the debate with some of the nonesense that is written). Although those few that frequented the blog supporting the union have gradually disappeared, they do sometimes re-emerge to speak their mind for what they believe.
It has to be said that they do find it difficult to produce positive reasons to remain in the union, their arguements generally revolve around why we can't become independent, which personally doesn't seem a great way to view your future.
In any case it is an interesting blog if your minded to better understand devolution, the issues surrounding union v independence and also UK politics from a Scottish perspective.
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SIN @ 307
Mmm, interesting. Couple of points back:
- I'm not Scottish but I have a ton of family who are and who live there and elsewhere. They (my guys) are split across all your categories. Some of them are ardent nationalists, some don't care, some want to stay in the UK because they have an affinity and some want to do so because they think Scotland is better off financially in than out.
- The ones who are nationalist really "feel it". For them it's about nationhood and self determination. The minutae of the whole thing (better off or worse off financially, for example) are very very secondary. Even the oil. For these guys, devolution (inc. FFA) can only be a staging post.
- The ones who want to stay in the Union because they feel an affinity for it will never vote for independence. They didn't want devolution and they'll vote against FFA.
- Those who want to stay in because they think Scotland gets a good deal would have to be persuaded either that the deal is not actually so good or that FFA gives an even better deal. Then they'd probably vote for FFA. Few years of that (if things worked out well) and I don't see why they wouldn't go on to vote for independence (even though they don't yearn for it in quite the way the nationalists do).
- On the LabCon politics, I can see why Labour are anti Scottish independence (they'd lose a lot of seats at Westminster) but the Tories would seem to have plenty to gain. No clue where that collapsing Lib vote will go but I'd guess to Labour.
- There's some anger in England (which you see on here) ... this "cake and eat it" business ... but it's not IMO particularly strong or widespread. Certainly I'd say the notion that some forceful movement for an English Parliament is going to develop in the foreseeable future is pretty much for the feathered creatures with wings.
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Mike@312
Re: "tax 'em and lecture 'em"
Technology takes time to develop in the mean time the only option is to encourage responsible behaviour through financial incentives giving tax breaks for the greener options.
Sadly the economy is dependent on rampant consumerism, we cannot turn the clock back but if we can influence people's decisions through the tax policy all well and good.
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#316 saga
Glad to hear it.
Re Lucas, see #314 and #308 (Conclusion of Guardian ref).
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#319 menin
Technology is already on the move. My opinion is that it will produce important results well before the 'social' approach begins to scratch the surface. After all, the latter's record so far is nothing to shout about.
Where has tax policy ever produced significant results regarding human behaviour? Smoking? Drinking? Driving? Any others?
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321 mike
I am very pro science and technology but feel that there is a general antipathy towards green policy and a push in the right direction does not harm.
The demands to reduce motoring costs have resulted in leaner meaner machines. The mooted airline tax would discourage airlines running half empty planes.
Personally I prefer the Greens as a pressure group rather than as a political party, they are more effective targetting specific issues than trying to put forward a coherent policy across the board.
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314. mike-jay wrote:
#308 blame
'Your guardian reference seems to confirm my views - they still fell down on science and technology at the last election. Read the conclusion.
No need to roll over. Just focus on progress.'
Yes, I left the door open for you there m-j. Could have posted a more positive piece but thought that one was reasonably fair. The quote I lifted related directly to your earlier comment. Anyway, that's one political journo's opinion. And I think calling them anti-science is off the mark. Any party who wants to abolish plastic bags and decriminalise marijuana has my support. ;-)
312.
Elfin appeal? Try the Plaid MP for Dwyfor Meirionnydd.
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Yes, read that Guardian piece. I'm not into the kinky stuff - quack medicine, ineffectual power sources, not wearing socks, etc - but I definitely AM into conservation of energy and of the environment. On tax policy, my view is it's about raising money and this is exactly what it should be about. Raising the money we need for high quality "free at point of delivery" public services and infrastructure, and security of home, hearth, self & realm and all the rest of it. That money should be raised on an ability to pay basis (or ATP at least should be the daddy principle). Upshot of this is a fair amount of redistribution (ergo less inequality) and I'm all for that. Tax and spend, tax and spend, tax and spend. Within reason of course. Nothing too punitive on the tax front and nothing too wanton with the spending. Behavioural taxes (drink, pollution, cigs, energy) are okay in that they're a win win. Either behaviour changes and we benefit accordingly, or it doesn't and the money rolls in. Having said that, I don't have their actual pictures on my wall the way I do with the likes of income tax and IHT and CGT and CT. (VAT I used to be very down on, but I'm coming around.)
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#318 sagamix
Out of interest does the age and/or geography of your family members influence which camp there in?
"- The ones who are nationalist really "feel it". For them it's about nationhood and self determination. The minutae of the whole thing (better off or worse off financially, for example) are very very secondary. Even the oil. For these guys, devolution (inc. FFA) can only be a staging post."
The self-determination part I can relate to, however I'd differ in that the details are of utmost importance to me. A desire for independence alone 'just because' isn't very convincing and usually sounds rather dangerous to those yet to be persuaded of the merits. Devolution and FFA can be seen as various points on the journey towards independence, if it actually comes to that. As I said before, there is a possibility that somewhere along the road, say FFA, that a majority may feel no more change is required. However many of the issues require more than control of economic levers, especially if those areas can have a major impact on your economy such as defence, energy policy and foreign affairs. Therefore if the FFA stage is ever reached I do believe that full independence would eventually occur.
"- The ones who want to stay in the Union because they feel an affinity for it will never vote for independence. They didn't want devolution and they'll vote against FFA."
They didn't want devolution but a majority voted for it. I can sympathise with people in this camp, it can be quite daunting leaving behind what you know for something new and unfamiliar, especially if you have been used to it for a long time and have never experienced anything else. I wonder what there reaction would be if FFA or independenc did become a reality, would they feel strongly enough to leave or would they remain and see what happens? Much as many of those attached used to be, this 'affinity' arguement is emotionally based, nothing wrong with that, its just rather harder to present to others the benefits of your position.
"- Those who want to stay in because they think Scotland gets a good deal would have to be persuaded either that the deal is not actually so good or that FFA gives an even better deal. Then they'd probably vote for FFA. Few years of that (if things worked out well) and I don't see why they wouldn't go on to vote for independence (even though they don't yearn for it in quite the way the nationalists do)."
This 'type' I do have a hard time understanding, especially as it sounds they may have swallowed being told that they are a burden on the UK. The mentality that accepts it is OK to never grow up, forever living on their parents pocket money, however if I get more working then I'll leave is a worrying concept. As you know I don't hold with the myth that Scotland is subsidised, however thats another debate.
It would have been another story if you had told me that they thought FFA was a better way to control the economy, rather than handing their paycheck to the parents, never knowing exactly how much they earn and then getting some pocket money back.
I suppose they are part of the possible majority for FFA but in the 40% undecided on independence, very pragmatic indeed, however the stance that they think its better to remain because they'd get more as a result of being subsidised is, if I may say, a rather dismal mindset, if that is indeed what they believe.
"- On the LabCon politics, I can see why Labour are anti Scottish independence (they'd lose a lot of seats at Westminster) but the Tories would seem to have plenty to gain. No clue where that collapsing Lib vote will go but I'd guess to Labour."
You are of course correct from a UK/Westminster point of view. Counter to this is the fact that Labour could feasibly expect to be the dominant power in an independent Scotland, that it chooses not to suggests where their priorities and interests lie. What better reason to make sure that the current Labour party as is never get near power in the Scottish government again. I'd agree with you that in certain areas that the Lib Dem vote would go the way of Labour with others to the SNP (or even the Tories in the borders). The greens could even hope to add to their tally of MSP's.
"- There's some anger in England (which you see on here) ... this "cake and eat it" business ... but it's not IMO particularly strong or widespread. Certainly I'd say the notion that some forceful movement for an English Parliament is going to develop in the foreseeable future is pretty much for the feathered creatures with wings."
Although the media does its best to stir and sensationalise many issues I can understand why there is anger in England Re the West Lothian question. Devolution as a UK wide concept was botched as it didn't take into account the largest constituent part. Then again when devolution was first tabled many in England were uninterested, its only since the ramifications have become apparent that attention has focussed on the many glaring inequalities.
To correct this you would indeed need an entirely separate English parliament, with the UK acting as a sort of white house in a federalised UK. Altering the UK parliament alone would not work as even English only legislation at present has Barnett consequentials affecting all UK constituent nations. Another reason for FFA, then the UK parliament could more reasonably be altered to suit the English electorates needs.
Better reporting of such issues by the UK wide media may alleviate some tensions by explaining the background to many issues (especially regarding 'subsidised' tution fees, care for the elderly, prescriptions etc.), however their paymasters each have their own agendas so more of your feathered winged creatures should be around shortly.
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I would so love to have a referendum on making all the countries which make up the Union independent, totally independent. I do not agree with borders but for as long as we are to have them then so be it.
However, I do mean total independence, they can raise their own taxes, defend their own borders, require their own passports, and not have free access across the border, just hop over for jobs, or health care, and in the particular case of the Welsh then no signs in English, everything in Welsh, and that's it, and it could be the same for the Scots, everything in Gaelic, oh and the real contentious one, no special treatment for Northern Ireland, they are 'given' to the Irish Free State, or whatever they like to be called, and they can speak Irish as well.
I am fed up with England, and the English being blamed for all the ills of the world, I mean Cameron and his 'humility' next thing he'll be kow towing to the Chinese! I would also have a citizenship ceremony alright, but any link to thei previous country must be broken, they must renounce any dual nationality, and everybody must be told that they are not allowed to bring anybody over from their former country by right, no marriage, no grand parents, no children from previous marriages, and they must undergo a stringent health check.
Finally, all government documents must be in English, and no more employing interpretors, or translators, no documents in any language other than English, plain simple English. So this might be seen as problematic but I have been agitated by all this talk of Scots Nats, and the freeing of the convicted Libyan terrorist on grounds of compassion. It has exposed the differences between us, exposed a raw sore, a blister, and the puss is beginning to flow. Just as many people have not shared in the prosperity which is meant to have been around is now beginning to become ever more obvious, so many will begin to understand how the sytem has tried to keep buying off the 'real' people, it has all been one massive confidence trick, it is time for a New Charter, the chartists have never really gone away, they have just been bought off, only now there is no money left, nothing, so could a New Chartist movement actually take off, with the use of the petitions which many have forgotten.
So, Independence for England. Freedom at last, I have a dream, that one day, we will be free.
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Andrew,
I think that one of the new labour MPs has been fantastic in bringing to the attention of the taxpayer exactly how much is being spent on sending the sons and daughters of the diplomats, and military, to private schools. This is another 'perk' which must be ended immediately. These diplomats already get quite enough already, it is about time that there was some sort of cull of our embassies and staff. This is the perfect opportunity for Cathy Ashton to put her foot down, close the British embassies, and let Europe meet the cost, and end the 'perk' of the subsidising of the independent schools receiving funds from the hard pressed taxpayer.
I don't know next thing we'll be told that these private schools are also charities!
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Andrew,
I must admit that I have listened in part to the 'evidence' given to Chilcot by General Sir Mike Jackson. I wonder where he mentioned, as he did in his book, that he took his own legal advice before the war as to the legality of the operation.
I also remember the involvement of the good General in the Bloody Sunday Inquiry. Just thought that it is not only the inquiry which does some cross checking. That is if my memory serves me well.
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ScotInNotts 309
Scot firstly I want to say I am not your enemy, you seem to think that anyone who does not agree with you, is, and respond much better when people are playing you.
I care very much about the Scottish people, indeed probably more than most, because as you know I lived there. Issues are not misrepresentations and inaccuracies simply because they are not you beliefs.
Here are some things you may not like but are true. The reason many Unionists have left Brians blog is because of the agressive stance of the Nationalists. You never give them a fair hearing before setting about trying to discredit them in a very nasty way. This may be the way the SNP operate, but arguments are not won by this method. You just harden the resolve of those who have different beliefs. This method by the Nationalists strikes fear into people, and I know this is true as I have heard it first hand.
The SNP have made many mistakes in Government and made promises they have not delivered. Nicola Sturgeon whom I did like, has not exactly covered herself in glory of late. Salmond is a clever politician who is able to whip up anger and cause problems betweem Scotland and the Uk Government very easily. Indeed during the election time Salmond made his feeling very clear when he thought he could gain some power from a Hung Parliament, and hold the rest of the UK to ransom for votes. How fair then do you believe this attitude is to the rest of the UK? There was also the matter of the leaders debates where he did not want Scottish people to see them, that was censorship, and a battle Salmond thankfully lost.
So here then is my cautionary tale to you. You may believe it or not, but I am going to say it anyway. Scotland cannot afford to go Independent, I have no axe to grind on this because it would be helpful to my beliefs, if you would (as I believe England would be better off). Scotland has no banking system to speak of, it relies on a massive public sector for jobs apart from the oil industry whose best years are behind it. It has unaffordable services because of the generous allowance from the Uk Government. It has pockets of high unemployment and social problems. In this recession during the banking crisis if Scotland had had to pay for its own banks (as the parent company always pays) it would have bankrupted Scotland.
Here is my other cautionary tale, there are, whether you want to believe it or not, still, a lot of ardent Unionists in Scotland. They have rights as well, what will they do if the vote is close, you could end up with a very divided Country. Then there are those people of skill and business who will leave the Country when they see the possible decline of Scotland, due to the need to raise taxation and loss of importance in the Global setting. Remember Scotland cannot just opt back into the Union again.
Then to the question of why I say about you not living there. You lose touch thats why, the day to day issues pass you by, because you are not living there. The opinions of the man in the street are not open to you. Yes you have family and so on, but they will usually hold the same views as you do. For instance I have a cross section of friends, not one of them is a Nationalist. They are mostly Labour or Lib/Dems and will not vote Conservative. The other reasons are, I have many times heard the Scottish say to me, they hate people commenting on Scottish politics when they do not live there. The other one being your zeal and passion over Independence, if it was so important, one would have thought you could not bear to stay away from your Country. The first reaction anyone is going to have in England when you express these views, if you do, is why don't you go back there then and contribute to their economy. It would be natural to do so.
Sagamix is not a very astute person or hes not saying what he believes, because England is playing the waiting game. Apathy in the English has turned to something quite different. They are waiting for Salmond to jump and be hung by an English rope.
Now you can take this in the spirit it was meant or you can let your temper do the talking.
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Blame 299
Sorry to be so long in answering.
I believe unless the population of the World is brought under control, by in certain cases, Government mandate, the earths resources will run out. Green issues are all very well, but they will not solve this overwhelming problem of population.
Education in birth control also helps in certain Countries, Iran, I believe, managed to cut their population by this method. It would also help with poverty, there is not a lot to be said for producing children that will die in this heart breaking way.
As to Catholics they will just have to put their beliefs to one side for the good of the World. I believe a lot of them break these rules anyway in everyday life.
I am also with coats when he says he would rather see the Greens as a pressure group than a political party. And Mike on the importance of technology.
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meninwhitecoats 305
Again sorry to be late in answering.
Do not be in any doubt the biggest risks will be addressed and these will be on the heads of the American oil companies. Britain has very stringent rules on safety, and as I said in an earlier post, feelers, I have no doubt will already be going out to bring some of Britains safety advisors to America. In the end it will not be BP that takes the brunt of this problem, it will be the American oil industry.
I can only say coats what I believe, BPs safety record is not that bad considering how many new ventures they have undertaken and the technology they have used to achieve this.
Of course every life lost is sad, but when you stack it up against all the elements that have to fought against to achieve oil, the record is not that bad. Britains is particularly good, however they are dealing with known circumstances, in most cases.
In the end the result of this spill will most probably be higher oil prices, as companies will fear to take plunges into new technology and ideas. They will note that any incident now, can bring an oil company down.
It is therefore of no use, the public whinging about increased oil prices if this occurs.
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"Sagamix is not a very astute person or he's not saying what he believes" - 329
That's fair comment - the second bit anyway.
To rectify:
I believe in the UK but not particularly strongly.
I believe Scotland has a decent case for independence.
I believe England on its own would be fine but no more than that.
I believe your views on this matter are driven in the main by anti Scottish feeling.
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Andrew,
hope that you are enjoying your break and you probably know by now that I am some sort of idiot. My idiocy this morning was to go to the glossary of terms from the 'War Logs' and that has proved to be a serious mistake. For example, I saw something about (time)Z and rather stuidly investigated as to why they should refer to time 'Z' and now I am totally confused as to what time of the day this is. It is particularly confusing when keeping two radios going, one analogue, and one digital, you see the pips are not in sync, there is a small delay, so when the pips go, which ones should I trust, and all because I went and looked up Time'Z'. I have much too much time on my hands, I really should not have retired early.
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#326 catch
You paint a rosy picture, but the thought of only Welsh and Gaelic in Wales and Scotland is hair-raising. I don't mind coping with French, Italian and German, but I put Welsh and Gaelic in the same category as Chinese and Russian, namely way beyond my grasp. I don't think it would do a lot for their tourist industries.
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Good morning each & Andrew.
10 year old held over motorway death.
I am sure I heard on the news that he is being held on suspicion of Manslaughter.
"Tis a pity the laws a whore."
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"Out of interest does the age and/or geography of your family members influence which camp they're in?" - 325
Nothing obvious no - except there's a positive correlation between how left wing they are generally and how much they support independence. Quite interesting point, this. The only serious nationalist party (the SNP) is left wing, isn't it? Wonder which is cause and effect there. Wonder if the SNP is left wing because people who believe in independence are left wing, or more the other way around. Or perhaps it's merely because Scotland as a whole has a political centre of gravity well left of centre. That is one of my (less than high minded) reasons for preferring the UK actually, being on the left myself; without Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland we'd be just England and we might go a bit patio.
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Sagamix 332
Though pains me to write to you, I feel I must. You believe everybodies views are driven by prejudice of some kind. On a regular basis you accuse someone of prejudice to play the game and stir up reaction.
In this instance please don't, Scot is very serious in his views, and I am very sincere in mine.
I have the best interests of the Scottish at heart otherwise I would wish them well and send them on their way to sure economic disaster. I do not need the hassle.
Not everything in life is a game, you may one day learn this, though I will not hold my breath. I am very aware of every little con trick you play. However you have much more time to convince the audience, that what is not real is, and because you spend your life on here in one form or another, will always be ahead of the game. Some of us have real lives to live.
I am one of those people that is just not interested or impressed, sorry. I know you do not come across it often.
In this instance if I can help Scot just think again, I will. I gain nothing because it sets my cause backwards.
So please stop trying to play games between Scot and I. You are an ardent Labour supporter there is no way you want Scotland to go Independent, they would never see power again. Thats the bit I do believe is sincere and I wish we saw more of that.
Also please do not introduce someone new to attack me out of spite, I am aware of that one as well. It becomes so tedious.
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mike-jay 224
There is a alternative Mike for Scotland, when I was living there I had a friend who spoke Doric, I learned some from her. I found it much easier than I thought.
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Susan, regarding my comment @ 332 ... "I believe your views on this matter are driven in the main by anti Scottish feeling." ... I do very much think this. It's clear from just about every word you write on the subject. To take an example: you're convinced that Scotland would sink into failure and poverty as an independent nation, that they can't hack it. You've said this a million times and you say it again in your post this morning. Okay, I disagree but fine. But then you also say that if they won't go for independence themselves you'd like to see us doing it for them - like us to "cut them loose" by way of England itself breaking away. This is (to me) a telling combination of sentiments.
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#322 menin
I agree with you about the Greens. They're more suited to the role you suggest than having to have a wide range of policies on everything under the sun.
Don't misunderstand me on other matters. I have no objection to reasonable steps in the 'Green' direction, but there are sensible limits to logic and persuasion. Beyond those limits the irrational fanatics take over.
The lower energy-consumption cars, and development of electric cars (still with many question-marks), are obvious examples of technological progress. And you can be certain that there is a lot of research going on in the background on things like alternative fuels, more efficient production of renewable energy, improved design of engines and other energy-using devices, better ways of absorbing undesirable gases from the atmosphere, etc.
The raising of the profile of the world's perceived problems has greatly stimulated research efforts - just as WW2 was a driver for many new ideas, for example - and I believe that the next decade or two will be very interesting from this point of view.
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Sagamix 339
Sagamix I know this is hard for you to understand, but often people are driven by seeing the subject matter from not just their own point of view, but that of others. This usually gives a balance to what you truely believe on the subject. You may of course interpret my posts as you wish, I can only say to you that you are incorrect.
I did not say that England would cut Scotland loose, that is your interpretation. I said they are playing the waiting game. Either in or out of the Union, the solution has to be found. I have always said that should the Scottish people decide not to go Independent then a way will have to be found to work together in the Union.
I sincerely believe Scotland cannot afford Independence, indeed, I did the figures myself when I was in Scotland and that is before the recession. There are of course other issues which I have mentioned and the fact that there are still ardent Unionists in Scotland who should also have a voice.
It is nothing to do with the Scottish cannot hack Independence, indeed the Scottish are a very determined people and if anyone could make it work they could. It is to do with the economy and what is good for Scotland.
Perhaps if you spent more time thinking about issues instead of being on here, you may come to a different conclusion. Perhaps if you stopped thinking everybody comes from the same place as you, it may help you to understand others.
So let me reiterate for you so that you can be completely sure, there are no hidden agendas, no prejudice and certainly nothing for me to gain in my post to Scot.
So you can now safely stop stirring the pot.
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#336 saga
"...without Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland we'd be just England and we might go a bit patio."
The case for an independent England in a nutshell. Congratulations.
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325. At 11:02pm on 28 Jul 2010, ScotInNotts wrote:
...Labour could feasibly expect to be the dominant power in an independent Scotland, that it chooses not to suggests where their priorities and interests lie. What better reason to make sure that the current Labour party as is never get near power in the Scottish government again.
After FFA, would the New Labour in Scotland simply become a Scottish Labour Party, basically, just another party of Social Democrats? It seems to me that after FFA, links with New Labour would be pointless?
To correct this [West Lothian imbalance] you would indeed need an entirely separate English parliament, with the UK acting as a sort of white house in a federalised UK.
How do you view this? I'm guessing (only guessing!) that to you it would be at most a second-best option)?
I've always though that this would be an excellent arrangement that would even accomodate changing levels of Fiscal Autonomy, the problem being that it would be unacceptable to Scots who want devolution because it's devoultion.
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