Immigration minister's figures don't add up
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BLOG UPDATE: Here is the link from Phil Woolas to the Home Office Migration Paper page, to the unredacted documents he referred to on a previous appearance on the Daily Politics.
Thursday's exchange on the Daily Politics with Home Office Minister Phil Woolas has generated some controversy so, in the calm of the aftermath, I have looked again at his response.
Using figures from the Labour Force Survey compiled by the Office of National Statistics (ONS) I put to him a finding from the latest survey available (Q3, 2009): that employment among those of working age (16-64) has risen by almost 1.7m since 1997 (what politicians like to describe as 1.7m extra jobs "created" -- the exact figure for the rise in employment is 1.67m); but that the number of foreign-born workers in the labour force has increased by over 1.64m.
This doesn't mean that all the additional jobs have gone to the foreign-born; but it does mean that the rise in employment among the indigenous population (of all races, colours and creeds) since 1997 has been de minimus, since the rise in overall employment has almost been matched by an increase in the foreign-born labour force. So it is hard to argue that the rise in employment since 1997 has meant, to coin a phrase, "British jobs for British workers".
This was the Minister's reply to the Survey figures:
That's not what they say. What they say is there have been 1.67million immigrant workers - immigrant workers are temporary workers - so what you're doing is conflating temporary workers, the total over 13 years, with permanent workers, and because it's similar to the new jobs created, you are taking a false logical step.
This is an old trick that has been played in every election since 1964. And what it is saying is that the number of temporary immigrant workers is the same as the total number of new jobs. That is logically not true. It cannot be arithmetically true. It's like saying that 50,000 people go to watch Arsenal every match, there have been ten matches; therefore 500,000 people have been. In fact, it may be that the same 50,000 people have. And that is the statistical trick that is being pulled on you.'
I must confess that I didn't fully understand this refutation at the time. But I've now had a chance to study the transcript and to read the statistical explanatory note which goes with the ONS survey. Here are the facts:
1. The ONS Labour Force Survey is a snapshot of the British Labour force at any one time: it is not cumulative (as the minister suggests with his Arsenal analogy) but a survey of the size of British employment and its composition at one particular time, taken every three months.
2. It does not distinguish between immigrants and non-immigrants nor temporary or permanent workers. It simply establishes if you are working in Britain at the time of the snapshot and, among other things, asks if you are foreign or British born. This question -- and the definition of foreign-born -- is laid down by Eurostat, on whose behalf the Survey is down. Brussels controls the definitions and parameters so that it can make like-for-like comparisons across the EU.
3. Though, contrary to the minister's claims, the Survey does not distinguish between immigrant or temporary workers, its rules would tend not to count temporary foreign-born workers. The Statistical note explains: this Survey "is a Survey of private households and excludes people in communal establishments (eg hostels, students living in halls of residence) and people who have lived in the UK for less than six months. Arguably the excluded groups are likely to include disproportionately large numbers of migrants. It would be reasonable to infer from this that estimates of migrant/foreign worker numbers based on the LFS may be a little lower than they should be." (My italics)
4. Let's just pause to reflect what that means: temporary migrants tend to live in communal residencies and many might be here for less than six months. So the Survey is almost certainly an underestimate of the number of foreign-born workers in the British labour force at any one time.
5. Just to be clear, there is no double-counting: to return to the Minister's analogy, the Survey would not pick up the cumulative numbers at an Arsenal game over time -- just the crowd at the particular Arsenal game when the Survey was taken.
6. The number of foreign-born workers in the British labour force has doubled since 1997 (from 1.5m to 2.8m). It is true that foreign-born could apply to the offspring of expats whose children were born abroad, who are now of working age and who have returned to these shores. It even applies to Boris Johnson (who was born in America). But there is no evidence of a massive return of expats since 1997 (indeed the momentum has been the other way). Though the Survey is not directly concerned with immigration it is hard not to conclude that the huge rise of foreign-born in the labour force is directly related to the huge rise in immigration since 1997. If there's another explanation I'd be grateful for it.
Now there are many possible official responses to these figures. Ministers could argue that it is a good thing that foreign workers have come here to do jobs which British-born folk have shunned. They could also point out that there are hundreds of thousands of Brits working and living abroad and that national labour forces are a two-way street in the age of globalisation. What does not look credible is Mr Woolas's explanation on yesterday's show. It would appear to be factually wrong and doesn't stack up. He needs to explain why it was right -- or come up with another one. We'll be sending this note to him.
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~06~RS~)
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I work in the construction industry, I'm a carpenter (sadly)and of all the jobs created within this industry a very high percentage has indeed gone to foreign workers (temporary)
In fact, of the concrete frame construction companies almost all now recruit eastern europeans. There are now more east european bricklaying gangs, labouring jobs too, are going east....see London Olympics.
British workers cannot compete with this and, it has nothing to do with work ethic, our overheads (mortgage, council tax etc) are higher, simple mathematics.
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Many people will thank you for exposing the sort of fog that is currently clouding a proper debate on immigration and its effect on jobs.
Unless proper debate is held over the coming weeks and people are given a proper explanation on why so many migratns have been let in while so many languish on benefits this fog will continue and all major parties will suffer as the date of the election looms.
If peoples perceptions see it as a threat and no-one gives them a solution then they will continue to see it the way that they want to and vote accordingly.
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Andrew,I am very happy that at long last you have given Phil Woolas a true grilling and exposed him for what he is. He is the most smug,devious and arrogant politician I have ever come across and my word, we have been subjected to many recently.I remember when he was previously on your show where he promised you a report and you have confirmed to me a couple of times since, that he had not produced it.He should be pursued even further because I believe that this man is responsible for treating us with utter contempt on the immigration issue and using derisory comments to undermine those who are trying to reveal the truth.
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Andrew,
I am afraid that this minister has history, and ought to be reminded as to what he said as to one of the reasons he has given for our presence in Afghanistan. If I can recall his comments, although not verbatim, that we are in Afghanistan because if we weren't there would be an influx of refugees, asylum seekers. I think that Woolas really must answer questions about migration. You are quite right to draw the attention of the public to the comments of this man.
I also like the way in which you clarify the statistical definitions, as has been said many times, there are lies, damned lies, and statistics, and the other one, you can fool some of the people some of the time, you can fool all of the people all of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
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So, I too much confess to not fully understanding a refutation. You say that,
"the number of foreign-born workers in the labour force has increased by over 1.64m."
and
"the number of foreign-born workers in the British labour force has doubled since 1997 (from 1.5m to 2.8m)."
Now, I'm not a maths genius, but ... that's 1.3 million not 1.64 ? Why are you giving two completely different sets of figures here?
Onto Woolas -- he was right when he said the Spectator did use the term 'immigrant' -- "immigrants accounted for 1.64 m of the 1.67m jobs created since 1997" [http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/5895033/british-jobs-for-british-workers.thtml].
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Andrew's use of statistics is rather simplistic. It is true that new jobs rose between 1997 and 2009 and that foreign born workers also rose between 1997 and 2009. Although there is a connection, Andrew doesn't point out some facts which qualify the statistics. A easy one is his Boris Johnson point. Like Boris my daughter was born overseas, arrived in when she was 8 and now aged 40 counts as a foreign born worker. This is plainly logically correct but an economic nonsense. I understand workers such as Boris Johnson represent 1/3 of foeign born workers, a significant affect on the statistics.
Why remove new pensioner jobs from the statistics, aren't they real jobs. The answer is they cloud Andrew's case. If you exclude the pensioners why not limit the statistics to the age group 18-25 as foreign workers are more likely in the younger age group.
The statistics also ingored home born workers in employment who emigrated, their jobs have also to be included as the total number of jobs available to foreign born workers. This applies equally to workers who retire, they simply increase the job pool.
Obviously then number of foreign workers has increased as shown by my daughter, my Polish builder, Romanian cleaner and the Lithunuan kids picking crops in the market garden next to my house. To simply connect statistics Andrew did was lazy and mis-leading.
Please do better.
PS I am happy for foreign born like Boris to be denied a job
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Andrew,
even more figures which don't add up. That is what the political parties think about the possibility of a balanced parliament. Can you imagine a situation where the BNP hold the balance of power, or the Scottish Nationalists, or Plaid Cymru, it will be an appalling situation.
What we must know from the liberals is will they support the party with the most seats, or the most votes, nationally, throughout the United Kingdom. Because they must surely go for the most votes cast for a party not the most seats gained.
The problem is that we must also be told that if they do support labour, that they will insist on a new leader for that party, will they allow Brown to continue even if he does not have an overall majority. The politicians might not like talking about it, but these issues must be explained, just like with Woolas, we demand clarification.
And none of this stuff about insulting the electorate, or pre judging the issue, hypothetical questions etc...is it any wonder that parliament is going to take so long before resuming, an extraordinary length of time, just like they went on holiday of WWI being declared...we might even get another bank holiday to save the economy. Oh, and can we stop having bank holidays, and have public holidays instead, just like I am a subject and not a citizen, not till after the revolution anyway.
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I have just watched the Daily Politics Show today and have seen how Andrew Neil has said that the Minster's answer yesterday was misleading, which is a little unfair when he was not there to answer.
Anyway that's not my point.
The truth is it is the statistics which were provided by the Office of National Statistics which are misleading and not the Minister's explanation of why they are misleading.
I find it difficult to understand why anyone who heard his explanation would not understand it and instead respond with the accusation he was misleading.
What the Minister meant was that the figure given for new immigrant workers (ie for all jobs, temporary and fulltime) over 13 years just happens to be the same (or very close similar to the total new jobs temporary and fulltime created over the last few years) so the 2 figures have got confused with each other and it's been concluded that immigrant workers have filled 98% of the posts for new jobs created recently.
That is not true. The figure for immigrant workers is over 13 years and most of them have taken temporary or transient jobs not full time jobs recently created.
It was shown today that really can the information released by the ONS be trusted anyway, as why haven't they included those that work over 64. We were told that if that was included that would increase the no of new jobs (full and part time or temporary which the maj of immigrants are over 13 yr not just recently). I hope people understand now and I find it difficult to understand how Andrew and others didn't understand the Minister's point. It was very clear to me and then to instead respond by saying that he was misleading.
Anyway why haven't the over 64's been included. That shows that the statistics can't really be trusted anyway. And if that increases th4e job count by a third. That means that the immigrant workers would have (on the confused and inaccurate comparison of a thirteen year figure with a recent just over last few years and comparing temporary workers with full time is misleading anyway) so a false and highly inaccrate comparison or picture anyway but based obn this false permise if the immiogrant workers had filled 98% of these newly created jobs then 98 out of 133.3333333 (if you included the over 64s) gives 73.5% and not 98% so a lot lower.
But as I've said the total figure for immigrant workers over 13 years has been confused because it is so near numerically to the No of recently created jobs so the whole argument that immigrants have filled 98% of jobs is defunct.
And it stands to reason that if the No of jobs for immigrants over a thirteen year period is the same or close to no for recent jobs then it's not very likely they'd have filled 98% of them. But anyway if you add in the extra third they'd have filled (if you accept the false premise of confusing a 13 yr stat with a recent one) 73.5 % of these Recently note recently created jobs (therefore the whole premise of them filling 98% of recently created jobs is based on a false premise by confusing a thireteen yr stat with the one for total recently created work).
So because it is based on this false basis mixing up a thirteen yr stat with a recent one the conclusion drawn could not be trusted anyway, so that immigrants = 98% of new jobs is nonsense. The maj of immigrants fill temporary or transient work and that the figure for all their employment over thirteen yrs is similar to figure for total (full time + temp (not just temp jobs which is what immigrants normally have) shows that no way could they have filled 98% of the recent figure for newly created work.
And then if you added in the extra third they'd have filled 73.5%, but that's only on the false premise of getting confused by the 13 yr figure and a recent 1.
And if the over 64s weren't included then can the stats or any conclusion derived really be trusted anyway and certainly if they amounted to an extra third that makes a big dif to the figures so why weren't they used.
The truth is the maj or work that immigrants do is temporary or transient, no way do they get 73.5% of new jobs, which is based on confusing the 13 yr figure with a recent 1, and common sense says that if the no total jobs for immigrants over 13 yr is similar to no of total new jobs no way could they have filled 73.5 of new work. The work they have taken is over 13 yr, not that they've all just taken up their work (ie as percentage out of their total work 4 13 yr)just recently.
So 73.5 % is based on false premise when ONS has become confused by a 13 yr figure because it was so similar to a recent 1.
But by leaving out the amount of workers over 64 that already mislead anyone. So can they or any of their stats be trusted and why did they leave out over 64s. And it looks like they have just got mixed up mixing up 13 yr figure with recent 1 and drawn wrong conclusion from it but can we be sure, some who work at ONS may have deliberately mislead (some may work for the Tories or be supporters of them so may wish to put out misleading and bad thoughts about Labour)
amn't saying that has happened but mixing up a thirteen yr stat with a recent 1 and not including the over 64s particularly if that amounts to an extra third new jobs and then to draw the wrong conclusion all seems v obvious to me, and v unprofessional that they missed 1 was a recent 1 and one was 4 13 yr and the effect of including or not including the over 64s would have.
All seems almost unbelievable they could miss these things, so it may be that some political biases were behind this why they have got it so wrong and so easily mislead the general public and missed such simple points which most would realise b4 they release the stat to general public and press and allow stupid conclusions. Am not saying that is what has gone on but it makes you wonder.
It seems obvious to me to not mix up a 13 yr figure with a recent 1 and that the over 64s had to be included (which they should be anyway) but had to when they amount to an extra 33.33 %. To miss these points seems incredible and hard to believe how they could miss the points and not to realise that this would give a totally false picture and allow wrong conclusions to be taken ie playing into the hands of the far right or indeed even some tories trying to oust labour mps in marginal seats on race / immigration card seems hard to believe they'd not realise it would have this effect.
Makes you wonder ?
Some at the ONS may have deliberately misled I'm not saying they did just that they may have because it's hard to believe these points will have been missed.
I hope my 73.5 % figure will be mentioned on the programme to show the big dif between that + 98% and that it will be clearly explained how a 13 yr No has been mixed up with recent 1
(or at least the Minister will be allowed to answer the accusation of misleading although he seemed frustrated yesterday because others seemed to be finding it hard to understand his point).
And because the extra third newly created work by over 64s changes the percentages in big way that it will be asked why weren't they included and certainly when it changes % s in such big way. So therefore because they weren't in and it changes things so much can the stats be trusted or any conclusion drawn ?
And that it will be clearly explained before not incl the over 64s how it was so incorrectly based on a false premise anyway mixing up a recent No with 1 for 13 y 1.
Yours faithfully,
C. Blyth
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Today's programme worried me. None of the spokespeople from the three main parties gave a good account of themselves. Considering that this is the case, the BBC owes it to the viewers to give the other parties a chance. Let's have at least a couple of Daily Politics shows that only have politicians from other parties on. For example, Greens plus UKIP plus an Independent. Why should the Big Three think it's just business as usual?
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I am a regular follower of this programme , you are not comparing like with like , I am retired and British and proud of it BUT i am a foreign born , does that make me a foreigner? half of phil willis voters are British but foreign born , there are millions of honest British resident hold British nationality but were foreign born BBC and mr Immigration minister should have known.
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So, to get this straight, Craig Blyth, you are saying that the 1.64 million is a total sum of the "new migrant workers" who have entered the UK since 1997 (counted as they entered the country over a period of 13 years, I assume, or as they applied for an NHS number).
1.64 has nothing at all to do with the number of "foreign-born" workers employed within the UK economy in a 2009 snapshot.
Rather, to use a Nottingham Forest analogy, to say that 1.64 million have attended the City Ground over 13 years ignores the fact that some of them stopped going during the year we were relegated to League One (Forest's equivalent of the recession during the last year), and attendance dropped. They did not all exist at the same time (during the snapshot during the snapshot taken in 2009), because they are/were (in the words of Woolas) "temporary workers". The statistics on the net exodus of migrant workers from the UK during the recession are very clear.
I assume from the blog that the real number of "new foreign-born" workers in that snapshot is in fact 1.3 million according to the ONS figures, about a third of which are people whose parents are Brits, and another 20% people from Ireland or the Continent. This means that 78% of jobs went to 'foreign born' workers, and -- adjusted to remove the 1/3 whose parents are Brits -- that's more like 50% (still including Irish, French, etc.), or 30% (non-EU/EEA citizens who don't enjoy freedom to travel and work in the UK).
And those statistics don't even deal with the issue of over or under 64s. With those, a majority of new British jobs really are going to British people.
That's the story? If it is, I think Andrew Neil needs to publish an apology, or at least get someone else on the program to make it for him.
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Andrew,
in the good old days there was a pride in our country as to where you were born, in particular Yorkshire, where you could never play for the cricket team unless you were born in Yorkshire. many parents therefore went back to Yorkshire to have their children
Now what Woolas is saying in your clip is that one in three of foreign born children are born to British parents. So, to put it simply, we need to know who and where. How many and what areas are we talking about. I think that you will find that many Pakistanis for example like to have dual nationality. It must be a condition that anybody who has British nationality cannot be a national of another country. I know that this could be seen as harsh but it really is unaccpetable in this modern age for some people to have the best of both worlds.
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There seem to be lots of complicated, repetitive posts appearing about the statistics discussion and Woolas. But what was progressively happening over thirteen years is irrelevant. As was stated on the DP, the ONS data simply represented two snapshots in time - one in 1997 and one in 2009.
Anyone who wants to dispute the accuracy of those data snapshots should not be meandering on about what happened in between, they should show that the data collected was incorrect.
Foreign born workers in 1997 were presumably defined by the ONS in the same way as in 2009. So were the snapshot numbers incorrect?
The omission of certain age groups was peculiar and distorted the conclusions that could be drawn, but accepting that omission, can anyone show that the ONS numbers and their groupings were in error?
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Andrew,
when talking about public sector workers people must understand who is public sector. Are we talking about those who are employed by local government, or are we talking about civil servants.
The trouble is that as I have explained before many people are coming up to retirement, or are going to be over 60 and entitled to pensioners credit. Now when will people understand that if a person was 50 five years ago, then somebody needs to be employed to replace that person when they do retire, so that the person taking their place will have been trained up. So, the fifty year old is now 55, and no doubt will be offered early retirement, so that when they leave there will be no need to replace them, because their replacement had been employed previously to take their place. If the replacement needs further training then of course the person who is given early retirement can then be employed as a consultant, or mentor.
So look at the demographic time-bomb because it is going nuclear over the next five years.
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I am not a Labour supporter but I have to say that I am increasingly impressed by Woolas's plucky performance.
Mr Neil is giving him a hard time but nothing in comparison to Joanna Lumley's efforts last year.
Then again, most people will listen to anything Ms Lumley does and just accept it.
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One of the points Phil Woolas tried to make was that it is not correct to take two sets of statistics that have jobs in them and equate them by jobs because the way that the two sets of statistics count jobs may not be the same. He made a complete hash of this, hopefully I've might slightly less of a hash of it. His Arsenal analogy was not correct but it was an easy mistake to make, I hadn't seen the stats & thought he was right at first and clearly you weren't entirely sure he was wrong.
I don't think anyone is disputing that the increase in the total number of jobs since 1997 is 1.67 million
You have two different figures for the increase in foreign workers (1) over 1.64 million and (2) 2.8-1.5 = 1.3 million.
Your point is that 1.67 million - either (1) or (2) = quite a small number
You are correct it is quite a small number, no argument there.
Then the argument goes, therefore the increase in the number of jobs for British workers has been very small.
Well maybe, but you do have to qualify this a bit if you're not to be misleading.
Please note that all of the figures I quote are available on the BBC website. Also I couldn’t find figures for the number of people retiring compared to the number of people attaining working age which could be relevant.
One point is that many foreign born workers are from EU countries and the number of British workers working in other EU countries has also increased. Due to the opening up of borders essentially we've swapped a load of workers with the EU. This skews the statistics in the sense that if we sent a number of them home and they sent an equal number of ours home then the foreign worker statistic would change dramatically but the total number of jobs available would not change (subject to returning workers filling vacating workers jobs).
Looking at the bigger picture, according to the Institute for Public Policy Research (IPPR), at least 5.5m British-born people live abroad, 6 million if those who live or work part of the year abroad are included (2006 figures).
The number of British citizens who chose to go permanently abroad doubled from 53,000 in 2001 to 107,000 in 2005.
You might think, ah but lots of them go abroad to retire, we're swapping OAP's for workers however according to International Passenger Survey/ONS figures for 2004 that is not the case. those who left in that year were
40% professional/managerial
25.3% manual/clerical
17.5% retired/carers
9.3% children
7.9% students
Before the recession when the economy was relatively strong, we were creating new jobs plus emigration freed existing jobs, so there were a lot of vacancies and this encouraged foreign born people to come here & work, they didn’t just take up the new jobs, they took up vacated ones as well, also some UK born moved from existing to new jobs vacating old jobs. So while it is correct so say the number of new jobs created is similar to the number of foreign born workers it is not correct to say almost all the new jobs have been filled by foreign workers and you cannot directly equate ‘jobs created’ with ‘jobs to be filled‘.
apologies for the length of the post
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Dear Mike-Jay
Let me make it simple for you.
1. The figure of 1.64 million does not seem to have been an ONS snapshot figure at all. Woolas and Craig Blythe say it is a cumulative 13-yr total of 'immigrants'. 'Immigrants' is also the term used by the Spectator. It was Andrew Neil who turned 'immigrants' into 'foreign-born workers' in his initial question to (and subsequent unhelpful interruptions of) Woolas.
2. The ONS figure is 1.3 million (given above in number 6 of the 6 points from the survey). The number of 'foreign-born workers' increased from 1.5 million in 1997 to 2.8 million in 2009. Those are the snapshots.
3. That's still a lot (78% of jobs created), but, coupled with the other factors involved with the category 'foreign born', it is much less alarming than 98%. Once you take other factors into account (Brits born abroad, over 64s, etc.) that percentage goes way way down to less than half.
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Andrew,
This ties in very nicely to loss of 1 million manufacturing jobs in past 12 years which presumably would have been predominately occupied by many British born employees e.g. the demise of Rover and transfer of Dyson's manufacturing base to Indonesia. The 'additional jobs' which labour continually harp on about were probably mainly created in many non jobs, non wealth creating posts in the public sector. One has only to look at 'Agenda for Change' in the NHS.
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#13
it should also be remebered that there will be a census next year, and this time it had better be policed properly, because so much depends on getting it right.
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Is there any chance you might be let loose on the party leaders? You could really put some fire into this boring election coverage and cut through the cackle. I would like to see you take Brown apart for 45 minutes just for starters. Why the BBC waste you on day time is a mystery.
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Andrew,
I have to ask how can people be so stupid with regard to National Insurance. Now the biggest employer is the NHS, they pay massive sums of money as an employer, or are they exempt. So, they pay massive NI and under labour proposals these payments will increase, so there will be less money available for patient care. The same through all those people employed by the state.
It is labour proposals which will take huge sums of money out of the economy, it will leave money in the economy not to implement the NI increases. As I have previously pointed out why does the government still go on about roads, and police, fire, and the public services with regard to NI, surely NI is not used to fund roads, teachers, police, fire, these are funded jointly by local taxes, and government grants.
The figures don't add up, look at the employemnt of translators, of people in the NHS who are not British citizens, they have been brought in frmm 'outside'. The same with so many jobs, as has been pointed out. Lose a real job, and then bring in people to do a job on low wages, and temporary contracts.
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#17 RK
Thank you for making it simple for me.
So you are saying that the snapshot figures have been misread, or are incorrect, or poorly explained by the ONS. Perhaps they need to revise their double-snapshot report.
Or is it the public's variable interpretation of the report that is causing the problem?
Whether the term is 'immigrants' or 'foreign born workers' is something of a red herring provided the definitions were identical for 1997 and 2009.
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Addendum to #22
Why not keep it really simple and just concentrate on just four numbers?
Subtract the number of jobs in 1997 from the number of jobs in 2009 and you have the increase in jobs between those two years.
Subtract the number of working immigrants/foreign born workers (it's irrelevant which term you use provided it's the same for 1997 and 2009) in 1997 from the new number for 2009 and you have the increase in those workers between the two years.
Then compare the increase in jobs with the increase in those workers and you can assess what proportion of the job increase went to the immigrant/foreign worker increase.
Of course, the correlation isn't specific - i.e. you can't say how many of the new jobs went to that category of workers, but the correlation does tell you something interesting.
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Yes, it does tell you something interesting, it tells you that if you have vacant jobs that the indigenous population don’t fill for whatever reason then other people from around the world will tend fill them.
When combined with emigration figures it also tells you that if you adopt a far right “Send them home” policy then you may generate about 2.8 million vacancies but in the tit for tat retaliation you’ll gain a ballpark figure of about 6 million additional unemployed leading to a net increase in unemployment of around 3 million.
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#24
Good progress. You agree that the 'vacant jobs' were filled by 'other people from around the world'. Just what the ONS indicated.
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4. Catch22 wrote:
"I am afraid that this minister has history"
He has... remember his fanciful projected figures on the Ghurkas which he was forced to revise?
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Lets look at the figures the ONS publish on their wonderfully inaccessible website. They are available on the ONS website here:
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/statbase/product.asp?vlnk=15233
Click on the link "Employment levels by country of birth and nationality".
Between 1997 Quarter 1 and 2009 Quarter 4 UK-born people in employment increased from 24.323 million to 25.259 million (an increase of 936,000). Non-UK born people in employment increased from 1.921 million to 3.720 million (an increase of 1.799 million). So the total increase (UK plus non-UK born) is 2.735 million. The non-UK born therefore accounts for 65.8 per cent of the total increase between 1997 and 2009 (because 1.799 is 65.8 per cent of 2.735). So the talk about 98 per cent of new jobs going to immigrants is rubbish.
What do these figures actually show ? They do "what it says on the tin". A non-UK born person is a person resident in the UK but who was not born here. This apparently includes Boris Johnson who I believe was born in the USA (or possibly on another planet). A 57 year old asian person born in Pakistan who moved to the UK as a baby and has lived here ever since will be counted as "non-UK born" because that's what he is. Many non-UK born people are British citizens (eg, the lovely Boris Johnsom and probably our 57 year old asian). Non-UK born people are not necessarily "temporarily" in the UK although some of them will be (eg, Polish migrants).
These figures relate to numbers of people in employment (aged 16 and over) not the number of jobs. You cannot subtract the number of people in employment in 1997 from the number of people in employment in 2009 to get "the number of jobs created". New jobs are being created all the time (even during a recession) and jobs are being lost all the time (even when the economy is booming). Comparing employment figures for 1997 and 2009 can give an idea of the "net" change in jobs over that time period (ie, new jobs created minus jobs lost) but it cannot give you "jobs created".
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Andrew,
it is not only the figures in immigartion which don't add up. I am seriously surprised that others have not picked-up on Browns 'evidence' to the Chjilcot Inquiry in respect of the funding of Iraq:
Brown says on page 89 of the transcript of his testimony that:
'well, the Special Reserve was created and I think that we said it was to do with issues of security and to counter terrorism, and it wasn't created with with an announcement that this was money we would definitely spend on Iraq, but it was created so that there was public recognition that we had set aside £1 billion'.
Now my point here is that Brown continually says that the reason why we are occupying Afghanistan is to keep terror of the streets of our country, or words to that effect. So, I have to ask why should we believe him, when manifestly the money to which he alludes to in his testimony was not used to deal with 'issues of security and to counter terrorism'. I think that parliament was misled when Brown made the announcement of his Special Reserve, and he has to continue with his cover up because other wise he would be in trouble with parliament, or so I have heard it said around and about.
It is not good enough that he has had to clarify his comments to Chilcot, and that apparently we have got a thousand people who are ready to help in reconstruction, immediately if there is a need for. It is also 'that at every point, I made it clear that we would support whatever option the military decided upon with the Prime Minister and the Cabinet and that there would be no financial barrier to us doing what was necessary to be done' now we have to ask what were the military saying to the PM, and the Chancellor. Who was the military leader, surely not General Sir Mike Jackson, and what does he do now, apart from write books saying that he took his own legal advice before accepting orders to take part in the Iraq fandango, or words to that effect.
Jackson now I think is heavily involved in a firm supplying military private contractors for the protection of our brave civil servants operating in foreign countries. How many of these people are now employed in place of the brave and courageous soldiers, their job being to protect civil engineers, bankers, and civil servants.
There are some people who have done very well out of Iraq, and the type of people are now doing very well in Afghanistan.
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Andrew,
in respect of the proposed new Cadbury Law, why do they still look backwards.
The very simple solution is for the government to have one share in every company, and for this share to be a 'golden share' which would enable the government to be able to agree or disagree with any board decision, on remuneration, or take-over or anything. Most times they would rubber stamp everything, but when it came to national security, or whatever, then the government would have control, through their 'golden share'. Now who will pick up and run with this brilliant idea.
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#24
Good progress. You agree that the 'vacant jobs' were filled by 'other people from around the world'. Just what the ONS indicated.
It's not a matter of progress, my original post says that foreign workers fill some vacant posts here and British workers fill some vacent posts abroad.
The truth is that the figures the Spectator has used are meaningless unless they are used in conjunction with other statistics but when they incorrectly joined to other statistics or used alone they are open to abuse, an area where the Spectator has previous form.
So lets quote a few other relevant ONS statistics
A8 = central and eastern European countries
Long-term immigration of A8 citizens declined in the year to June 2009 with a fall of 32 per cent
Long-term emigration of A8 citizens slightly increased in the year to June 2009, (58,000 in the year to June 2009 compared with 43,000 in the year to June 2008)
628,000 National Insurance numbers (NINos) were allocated to non-UK nationals in the year to June 2009, a decline of 15 per cent on the year to June 2008.
186,000 NINos were allocated to A8 nationals in the year to June 2009, 36 per cent fewer than in the year to June 2008
In the year to June 2009 the number of workers from A8 countries successfully applying to work as an employee in the UK via the Worker Registration Scheme (WRS) was 118,000. This compared with 199,000 in the year to June 2008, a fall of 40 per cent.
The number of applications for asylum, excluding dependants, was 30 per cent lower in the fourth quarter of 2009.
What these figures combined with the earlier figures suggest is that when a country has surplus jobs, foreign workers (luckily for us) tend to fill them and as surplus jobs decline then the foreign workers tend to gradually go away. There is a catch though, in a world wide recession our own migrant emigrees who have been working abroad may well tend to come back as their foreign jobs start to disappear.
Overall we're actually quite lucky, it works better for us than many other coutries as we tend to palm more workers off on them than they do on us.
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I sense I'm meant to be fretting about something to do with people living and working in Britain who happened to be born elsewhere, but I'm not sure quite what it is.
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Andrew,
as well the former liberal Adonis should not all those in labour who propse voting liberal to keep the conservatives out should be expelled from the party, as happened in 1997. I have said earlier that some people still have principles, and liberals must remember their anger about Iraq, and these people want you to vote for them, or vice versa. That labour voters should vote liberal, rather than vote NOTA, which is not a wasted vote, it is to show that none of them are up to it. NOTA is None of the Above, and the option should actually be on the voting paper.
One thing which I thought was strange was the coverage given by the BBC to Brwon going to see the Queen, what a disgrace, and I would like to know how much pollution was caused by the helicopter used to film the helicopter bringing the Queen to Buckingham Palace. I want to know were there any conversations between the BBC and labour party officials, at any level, to give the extended coverage which the event really did not warrant.
Alkso with the Conservatives being accused of deceipt, effectively a confidence trick, or con, then should not the BBC stop putting on their electoral opinion polls stuff like con gains, because surely it can be seen to be 'con' or confidence trick, this is not Hustle, it should be about serious politics.
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31. At 00:54am on 10 Apr 2010, sagamix wrote:
I sense I'm meant to be fretting about something to do with people living and working in Britain who happened to be born elsewhere, but I'm not sure quite what it is.
The Spectator in its usual xenophobic way wants you to fret over a couple of numbers that can be used to imply any jobs we create are stolen by nasty foreign types while accidentally forgetting to mention that official statistics show that roughly double the number of plucky Brits do the foreigners a favour by going over there and doing the jobs they create in their countries.
They also forgot to mention that the statistics show that as the surplus jobs here start to decline, the tendency of foreign types to come over here to work starts to decline, something to do with supply & demand or some such tommyrot apparently.
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At the end of the day, to sum things up, in my opinion, it has been clearly shown by several others as well as myself, how the ONS stats released are highly misleading and badly thought through, particularly with the omission of over 64s, which makes a huge difference.
It is has also been clearly shown that the Spectator has incorrectly linked dif stats together and either innocently (or deliberately) just shown themselves up by incorrectly drawing the wrong conclusions and just as (yawningly predicted) made them appear as a paper who is hell bent on blaming immigrants for everything just like other right wing rags do.
That, to those in the know, who can spot, the biased journalism, in these publications, just makes them appeal foolish or even just like idiots/morons.
Unfortunately, there were a few, only a very few posts here, which were allowed on, which totally didn't answer the point or subject matter of the thread, but instead just meandered off for other reasons to attack or blame immigrants for everything. I'm not sure why these posts that didn't address the subject matter of the thread at all. were allowed on the thread, and instead were just general rants attacking/blaming immigrants for things.
But nevertheless, don't be down about, these idiots, in right wing papers, or those that no matter what proof or arguments are put to them will always be determined to blame immigrants for everything. Don't be down about these things because, thank goodness, the vast majority of the British public, have more intelligence than that, and that's why the bias involved by right wing press like the Spectator or Daily Mail or shown by some in posts here, will never achieve any real power for far right groups, like UKIP, or BNP, because thank goodness, the BNP will only ever win some council seats and are highly unlikely to ever get enough votes to ever get 1 MP, well I hope that's the case anyway, and I'm fairly sure they never will. :)
An interesting point has been made regarding net emigration ie not net immigration for all the biased right wingers out there. I'm not sure what the evidence is in the last two years whether there has been net immigration or net emigration but as has been indicated by there's about double from this country that fill jobs abroad to those filling jobs here from overseas, it appears that we still have net emigration per annum in this country and not net immigration, I know that certainly used to be the case until very recently, so that there is this flood of immigration taking all our jobs, as the biased right wingers would like you to believe, is a load of old rot, in fact there are far more who emigrate from this country than immigrate into it, to be honest, I'm not completely sure that is still the case, but it certainly seems that way by what has been said, I know until very recently there was certainly net emigration.
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Andrew,
surely people have not got such short memories over the banking crisis. The action which was taken which brought some sort of sanity back was the temprorary banning of short selling. This involved selling shares which you did not hold, but borrowed from somebody who did, and hopefully for the short seller the price would fall, then they would be bought back, and returned to the original holder. Now the short seller would have made money, and the beneficial owner of the shares would receive a commission for their lending of the shares.
Now at this stage I will not go into the full details but surely it is the practice of stock lending, and short selling must be 'banned'. This can be achieved by not allowing stock lending, which would immediately prevent the practice. Furthermore, the practice of allowing contracts for difference must also be better controlled. This practice is where a 'broker' will allow certain privileged clients to trade shares without having to put up all the money. The shares are bought, and there is agreement that the full consideration is not paid, but a percentage. The shares are sold, and the 'broker' then deducts money from the proceeds, to compensate for the client not paying the full consideration in the first place. This is nothing other than speculation.
The practice of margin trading should also be controlled, as should any trading in options, calls or puts, which are highly speculative and are nothing other than gambling. What came out of the causes of the causes of the great depression of America in the latter part of the 1920s was that governments especially in America tried to protect share speculators until all the money was gone, the same has happened again, only with new instruments.
Asset prices, not only houses, but shares, must be allowed to fall to their proper level. The share markets around the world have recovered under Quantitative Easing, and similar actions, only you cannot print money to get you out of a hole. Most of the money from QE has ended up in stock markets, and also antiques and fine art, and gold. So, anybody came to me with a manifesto which brought the Stock markets around the world under control, then I would be very happy indeed. Only the financial institutions now run the country, as I have said before it is not the government which has nationalised the banks, it is the banks which have taken over the government.
Now that would be a great manifesto, as most of these insane practices are banned in many countries, as for trading in bundled mortgages...please!
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Andrew,
I might have missed it but has not one of our brave and courageous soldiers got themselves killed in Afghanistan, yet where is Brown now. More concerned with the election to remember the poor guy, fighting to bring democracy to that country, yet no longer able to vote.
Brown should stop his electioneering to hold a press conference where he announced the future policy in Afghanistan, it is not about keeping the streets of our country safe from terror, it is kow towing to our American allies, if we didn't follow them then they would bankrupt us, well that's what I think anyway.
I want to know how many jounalists have been disembedded during the election, withdrawn so as not to remind people of the unfolding disaster which is Afghanistan. We now learn how much is having to be paid to local nurses to tend our injured, we don't know how many private contractors in the military field are now having to be employed to do the jobs of the soldiers because the soldiers are now mostly confined to barracks.
The cost of this occupation is astronomical, and where is this money being hidden, in some Special Reserve or other. Mind you we must not talk about this otherwise we will be giving succour to our enemies, national security.
In the meantime we use the Drones, we kill from a distance, we do bad things to bad people, or so I have heard it said around and about. The fogotten heroes, just like the soldiers who fought and died after the war in Europe ended. Come on Brown, lets have your wonderful serious voice telling us how sad you are, and that you have written to the family, and that the names have been checked to make sure that you have got it right, how the sadness extends to the love of your life, the wonderful Sarah.
I am still not feeling well, maybe the election ought to be called off until I feel better. In fact maybe the election ought to be called off period, why bother!
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Andrew,
maybe Woolas ought to tell us exactly how many of the Iraqi translators have been allowed to enter the country, with their families, for the service which they provided to our brave and courageous soldiers in Iraq. These people have been identified and are treated as collaboraters, so how many have been granted sanctuary in this great country of ours.
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Andrew,
it is being reported that the Polish President has died in a plane crash. All we can hope that the repercussions are not like those of an event in some far off place in 1914, nor like the events which resulted from a plane crash on the Rwandian border. Sometimes there is an event which sparks things off, only we did not know it at the time.
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#31 saga
You are not meant to be fretting about that at all. Previous debates on here have more or less exhausted the immigration question - for now.
What is causing all the unrest is simply the mathematical correctness or falsehood of the ONS data and its interpretation, as it arose on the DP. Unfortunately and inevitably, a simple question of mathematical accuracy has inevitably led to politically orientated aggression and unnecessary accusations being thrown in all directions.
What is quite surprising is that both Labour and Conservative parties are treating immigration as a problem to be controlled by a points system or quotas, etc, whereas there appears to a belief on this blog that they are deluded. But, as I said, we've gone over all this before.
Perhaps the current cause for unrest will be soothed if and when the ONS explain or correct their data and the way it is meant to be interpreted.
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Several people have asked why the ONS exclude people over retirement age from the figures. They don't exclude them ! The Spectator chose to publish figures with the post-retirement age group removed, but ONS includes them in their figures referred to in my previous comment (no. 27).
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Having looked at the growth in UK population for the last 13 years my estimate is that net immigration has been about 350,000 a year , almost double the official numbers. Councils like Slough and Peterborough are always complaining that the official numbers are too low and my guess is that they are right and it's yet another government fiddle.
However even using government stats net immigration has run at 4 to 5 times the level pre 1997, new citzenships are awarded about 200,000 a year {used to be 30-40,000}, overseas student visa have risen from around 70,000 a year to over 200,000 a year. We know that this " open door " policy came from deliberate government policy via a series of whistleblowers and e mails.
The thing that really gets my goat with somebody like Woolas is that he is trying to deny reality rather than try either to justify a clear government policy {immigrants bring new cultures, dynamisim etc} or just admit that they got it wrong and will do better in future.
Thought Andrew did well with him and hope to see him put him on the spot again. Incidentally I was impressed by Timms on Friday as he {unlike Woolas, Adonis, Bradshaw etc etc} at least tried to answer the questions truthfully, he obviously has no future in a Manadalson,Brown, Campbell party !
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Andrew,
I live in Exeter and as I drove to take my garden rubbish to the tip there was a poster for UKIP. Now on this poster was the legend, something like 5000 people move here every week. Now this was by a bit of derelict land, and apart from the irony there is the problem that where is exactly here. Here is where the sign is, and manifestly 5000 people cannot live on a sign, so grammatically it is just so incorrect. So, can we have other examples of posters which are nothing other than wrong. A bit like the old one We prosecute Bill Posters. Well what has Bill Posters done to deserve prosecution.
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I can only envisage that the 'grand plan' is to have uncontrolled free circulation of the world population which is undoubtedly an altruistic aim, but totally impractical. The welfare system and public services in the UK are going to crash soon enough, or face accelerated erosion, and this isn't a racial issue at all, though rapid immigration will bring cultural and social divisions into focus.
I get the sense that we're riding a charabanc crazily swaying along on an outing to the seaside with everyone having a ball, but no one noticing the nuts and bolts falling off. Bonuses, back handers and bungs keep the elite in splendour as the first signs of services withering away start to show. As fuel and energy costs rocket, that money will be taken out of the economy, so arguments as to whether or not six billion should come out of private industry or public servives will become irrelevant and miniscule in comparison.
Listening to Gordon and Cameron is like enduring the squabbles of the pilot and co-pilot of a plane arguing about the positioning of the wing mirrors as it heads towards a mountainside. Cameron appears to be winning the argument, but who cares ? We also keep hearing about what governments will do with money raised from banks, but what's that all about ? A tax on banks is pointless and will only be fed back to everyone in increased charges. The purpose of imposing a levy on banks was to safeguard and secure us from their flagrant desire to trash the world economy for their own enrichment. At least when they proposed an insurance sheme or bail out fund it acknowledged what its purpose was. Now it's just another money raising scheme, and the banks can get back to what they wer doing before they were so rudely interrupted.
I'm not sure quite what our economy is floating on at the moment - the last fumes of gas in the tank of QE, but all I can hear is the wind, and it's no good congratulating yourself on avoiding disaster if we are paying an unaffordable price to avoid it. If we're floating just above reession, the rocks ahead are there for all to see - public service cuts, higher taxes and rising energy costs, and they won't stimulate the economy, quite the reverse.
Keep stoking the boiler with QE. Just don't upset yourself by looking in the tender to see how much is left.
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Andrew,
many people seem to be blaming the current Pope for all the problems with the Catholic church. Rather than look closely at the current German Pope, should we not be taking a closer look at the previous Polish Pope, who was a very nice man, in fact I have heard it said that he was even very saintly, yet he seems to have been kept in ignorance of what was going on around him.
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mike @ 39
Well you can do a lot with stats, we all know this. Depends what your message is ... e.g. "immigrants are taking all our jobs" ... never sure who the "our" relates to when I hear that.
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Andrew,
down here in Exeter we have had our local elections cancelled because the government in its dying day has granted Exeter unitary status. Now Exeter used to have its own Primary Care Trust, only it was merged with Devon Primary Care Trust. So I really cannot understand how it can be seen to be efficient to have a Devon wide PCT, yet a local unitary authority.
There is also the problem of this so called National Care service which really cannot, or will not be National in that it will only apply to England, or will the Scots and Welsh be paying for us. The problem is that the tax will come in almost immediately but the benefits will not be apparent for years.
It is the same with the idea that Brown will have in the labour party manifesto a committment to bringing back the link between pensions and wages. Whose wages, the figures like those for migration are false, and we know that over the coming years wages will not fall, but I can predict that prices will. There must be no change to the way in which state pensions are calculated, it will not be transparent at all. Do you know what your neighbour earns, so how do you know the rate of increase in their wages. Anyway wages are just so not middle class, middle class people have a salary, not a wage.
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A few new usernames immediately up for challenging Andrew, hot election topic this.
Here's a recent statement the the Cross-Party Group on Balanced Migration regarding the Office for National Statistics Migration Statistics Quarterly Report. Co-chairman, Frank Field (right-winger?)
“Today’s immigrations figures, the last before the General Election, confirm that immigration remains a major problem for our society. The Government’s Points-Based System has had little effect, despite their repeated claims to the contrary. Employment-related visas fell by only 20,000 last year, despite the recession. There was also a modest fall in arrivals from Eastern Europe, as we have long predicted. But the reality is that based on these figures, we are still firmly on course for a population of 70 million in 20 years or so; 70% of this increase of nearly 10 million will be due to immigration. “Any new Government will have to take urgent measures to get immigration down to levels that the public can accept; this means balanced migration. So far none of the major parties has set this as a clear overall objective.”
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Andrew,
have just been watching the Masters from Augusta, or the news on it. Now there are two leaders of the tournament, both of whom are English, but the BBC seems to demand that they are British. Now this to me is totally unaccpetable, the two guys are English, and when either of them wins, then I hope that they will be referred to as English winners of the tournament, and not British.
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#45 saga
I agree about how stats can be manipulated - I always regard them with suspicion. However, as I stated in #23, the current mathematical question depends on only four numbers. If each of those numbers can be specified with reasonable accuracy, the ensuing maths is simple. If they can't be specified with reasonable accuracy, the whole exercise is pointless.
What is irritating is the shift in emphasis from the handling and interpretation of the data to political argument via shoals of red herrings swimming in a sea of bile. If the maths happened to show that a certain proportion of the increase in jobs between 1997 and 2009 was taken up by a defined group of people in a specified age range, so what? It's not going to cause a cataclysmic upheaval - they're only facts and figures that might possibly remind governments to be careful how they word various statements.
Whatever the outcome of this particular maths problem, it's not likely to change any policies of political parties, so why get hot under the collar about it?
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The government has made a rod for its back by a) sending mixed messages in order to appease its own more right wing supporters, b) by the belated introduction of control measures which arguably should have been looked at earlier in their terms of office, c) having a track record with regards to misquoting and manipulating statistics (as most governments are prone to do) and d) by not addressing related factors such as the decline in areas of training and in certain trades and industries.
It happens throughout the world, economic or political migrants looking for opportunities to improve their lot. The trends normally balance out over time, except perhaps where you have a continuing situation like the Mexican, US border.
With the election coming up it's unlikely that the politics will be removed from this debate rather than the focus being on the economics. But then what chance when a political leader's choice of biscuit and his wife's choice of clothes becomes political?
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Phil Willis certianly showed himsef up to be statistically illiterate. But still, you took a very simplistic view on the fact that almost all jobs created under Labour have gone to foreign born workers. Some of the thoughts I had on this subject are
- The seemingly unstoppable increase in the white South African population now living in S.E. England in the last 15 years, many of whom now play cricket for England.
- The unwillingness of British industry and public service to pay for skill training. It is easier and cheaper to allow Poland or Nigeria or the Philipines to pay for the training and then Britain reaps the benefit.
- With the numbers of foriegn born staff working in the NHS it seem obvious that the government, for the NHS is very government run, has got its training estimates grossly wrong over the last several years. Not enough medical training places have been made available in the UK.
- The incentivising of British Universities to train foreign students as they bring in vastly more income than UK resident students.
- The bulk importation of workers from the 3rd world allows British employers to pay 3rd world wages and generally hold down wages costs to industry and the public service.
All in all, several examples of the British Dell-boy attitude to do everything on the cheap at the expense of the bigger picture.
Who's to blame? The government, certainly! The captains of industry, definitely! The foreign-born workers, not-at-all.
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The figures start from a different base. They're not comparable.
Also Labours new jobs are those created from schemes etc they have introduced, they are not just a change in number of jobs. As explained by Mr A.Neil himself on DP etc.
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Labour job creation stats may is probably what P.Woolas is referring to.
Try party conferences for your own analysis.
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C2 58@ 'LibDem big boys' for you.
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And I also thought that net migration showed more leaving than coming in, hence the 'brain drain'.
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C2 36 - They only called an election because you demanded it. You can't change your mind now.
Keep taking the tamiflu or Vitamin C etc, there is an election ahead, possibly 2...you can't sleep through it, you've got to keep up.
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C2 36 And, they haven't even written their manifestos yet, so plenty of blithering to do. And see no. 58 at 'Big Boys'.
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At times I have wondered whether I might be suffering the onset of the aging miseries that most of us face as we approach the dawn of our lives, but I've read an article that paints an even worse picture of how our economy stands than I believed.
"This {public debt] is now growing so fast that it is difficult to find ways of bringing home how stupendous it has become. The Taxpayers' Alliance has tried to do it by pointing out that public debt is rising by £447,575,342 – virtually half a billion pounds – every day."
It tends to highlight the point that tinkering with billions here and there and tax allowances, is the equivalent of tending your petunias as a tsunami approaches. People will face such a real drop in standard of living in the coming year that the miserable gift of a few pounds will barely be noticed. Labour started the election campaign on the warning of Tory cuts, knowing full well that they were inevitable whoever won the election, and since then the argument has been skewed by this into a bidding war for our favours. Very nice indeed, but all gifts will be returned to the shop and the bailiffs will follow soon after.
Gordon, and Cameron too, have grand plans to inject oodles of our cash into foreign eco-projects that will devastate the NHS and most other services we tend to expect. In the unlikely event that Gordon should win the election, he'll bestride the nation like Pol Pot, standing firm as he leads us into yet another disaster. He's a man for a disaster all right. I'm just not sure what he can blame the next one on.
If the economy can't live without QE, then there's going to be a big bump when it has to stop. You'd have expected one of Gordon's banker buddies to point out that splurging your money away when you're broke isn't very prudent. It's not something they allow their customers to do, but then Gordon's always been so lenient towards them it's only fair that they don't upset him.
It wouldn't surprise me if someone thought that the US idea of universal healthcare by means of insurance was a good idea, but it won't surface this side of the election. There'll be a lot of new inventive ways devised to make people pay for things they've always taken for granted as being free - and there'll still be cuts. It's not a party political point as these things will be inevitable to whoever comes to power. It's just a shame that our two major contenders for high office are living in denial.
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58 Gomer - I don't think Alec Salmond is in denial.
(Do you mean 'autumn' eg, not 'dawn')??
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Andrew,
still no word from Brown on the dead soldier in Afghanistan, not unless I missed it, I heard his comment on the terrible deaths in Russia of the Poles, but nothing on the soldier who died last week. Now, if the politicians had their way there will be no mention of Afghanistan, of the final retreat from Iraq, of the death of de Menezes, and Tomlinson, or the appalling testimonies which can be read in respect of the death of Baha Mousa in Iraq, and the use of drones in Afghanistan, and the deaths of people in custody who died attempting to escape.
The economy really is not the issue, it is about our basic freedoms which are being eroded, our freedom of speech, this election is just so not about the economy, it is an election about who we should be, not who we have become.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Andrew,
I regard the worst thing about the breaking news today is the loss of so many computer records relating to the donoation of organs. This is just so typical and makes it obvious why I will be donating my whole body to the NHS. If there is one thing that I can achieve then in my death that will be it. To think that one of my organs could keep somebody alive is altruistic.
However, there is a problem, there usually is with me I'm afraid. Everybody must do the same, because I would not want any of my organs to go to anybody who will not do the same, especially if they do it for religious reasons. If there were any religion group, which agrees with taking organs, but refuses to give them. Or refuses to give their organ to anybody who is not of their religion, then obviously I reserve the right for my organs to go to anybody in that group.
However, what I will allow is the total destruction of my body for medical research, they can cut me up, dissect me, explore me, see the effect of any drugs on my cells, do anything, anything which will help to advance research, especially into Alzheimers, or Dementia, that is my gift to the world, my real gift is my brain, but that would not be my mind.
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#31
I thought that even if it got past the moderators, then somebody would refer it. This is going to be the problem with the upcoming election. Surely there is the problem which has been identified with the internet, the use of inappropriate comments. Now consider that you ahve a Facebook page which your friends can make comments on. Now if those comments are not fair comment, and I won't make reference to any in particular, but when does free speech become unaccpetable, because this is going to be paramount.
We must apply the Harm Principle in respect of free speech, but who decides, who is responsible, for the application of the Harm Principle in respect of free speech. It touches on torture, if anybody comes up with the ticking bomb reason for accepting torture, then what if the person being tortured really does not know where the bomb is. We are faced with the usual problem do the ends justify the means.
The other problem which we are now faced with is should we be a totally secular society, and not allowing anything which prevents patient care being compromised by anything religious, or custom. For example if a person believes that they must never expose too much of their skin to the public, but that under any scientific study that germs can be a cause of infection then everything which can be done should be done. So nobody must be allowed to compromise health by wearing clothing which completely covers their arms. If they will not conform to rules then they are unaccpetable in a National Health Service, or we seriously going to have the NHS compromised by religious groups, any religious group.
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Andrerw,
just how despicable are these people. Apparently one of the political parties is sending cards to people who have suffered from cancer saying something along the lines that the guarantees which we have made over cancer would be compromised if another political party were to be elected.
Now I have 'suffered' from cancer, Malignant Melanoma, and if I had any indication that my medical records were being used for political reasons then we really are in a bad state of affairs. Now I carry a computer stick with my records on, which can be downloaded if I am in an accident, and I wear this as a soldier would wear his Tag.
However, if I thought that a political party could just buy my records, then there must be something under Data Protection which never permits my medical records to be used for political electioneering purposes.
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We are all now aware that spending cuts will befall many governmental
departments whichever party is in the hot seat come May 7.Its long past
the "Tory cuts versus Labour investment" fairy tale and tough decisions
will have to be made.We will all have our personal views on which services we deem to be of the greatest importance,and which could manage
satisfactorily on a reduced budget.
I suggest that the Home Office looks very closely at the UK Border Agency
which has seen fit to endorse the spending of hundreds of thousands of
pounds on conducting a "Migrant Survey".
Questions will be asked of refugees,foreign students,asylum seekers and
overseas workers,so as to "explore the perceptions of a wide range of
migrants" to find out about their experiences as to how the immigration
system can be improved.They will be asked if they use public services such as buses,libraries,schools,doctors,why they chose to come here and
whether they intend to stay permanently.
What the authorities plan to do with the results of this data remains
unclear,so perhaps Andrew could ask Woollas next time he runs into him.
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After 13 years of allowing industry to be slowly broken down and sold off in the name of globalisation, the Labour party now proposes a Cadbury Law [nothing to do with the marginal constituencies around Cadbury?].
I dare say we cannot prevent foreign ownership of our companies but when such acquisitions result in the loss of strategic businesses and the loss of skill sets down the whole supply chain - one cannot help but wonder why chocolate is deemed more important than innovative industries?
Should we rejoice in the fact that our manufacturers now have to import many of their supplies, not out of choice - but because the products and services until recently available in the UK have now been rationalised and the work exported to lower cost centres or to the country of the acquiring company?
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Andrew,
surely we can get away from the term 'cuts' but bring in another term which is less emotional in respect of public services. Why not attempt to use the term 'reductions' because there really must be a reduction in the amount of money taken from the taxpayer and redistributed. Will there actually come the time when the old rich have become the new poor, and the wealth must be redistributed back to the new poor, but were the old rich. Where is the favourite economist, not Keynes, or Cable, but Adam Smith, with the invisible hand. Should we not be looking for the invisible man, with the invisible hand.
By the way can somebody please remind Brown about the abolition of the ten per cent tax rate, because I have never been properly compensated for the loss of that rate. Also pensioners do not forget when Brown goes on about linking pensions to wages the time he gave pensioners only a 50p rise. To be fair though he has increased state pensions by more than the rate of inflation at the time, but only because he is remembering the last time, but there is nothing like a bit of pork barrel politics.
As for the economy the numbers are being distorted by Quantitative Easing, when the money is all gone just wait and see, of course pensions must remain linked to the Retail Prices Index, not wages.
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64 catch22
Despicable, horrible and heartless barely describe the sheer inhumnaity of sending out these leaflets to cancer sufferers. The party responsible claimed that it was a scatter gun approach, yet evidence is appearing that only cancer patients received a leaflet.
To make matters worse all cancer patients have been targetted so that even those whose outlook is terminal have received the leaflet. I cannot undestand the mindset of an individual or group of people that could sanction such actions.
That the MSM including the BBC and SKY are ignoring this story only makes these organisations complicit by association in the use of such underhand, deplorable and at the very least illigal from a Data Protection Act point of view. The Information Commissioner in a normal decent society should be very busy handing out huge fines/jail sentences: I will not hold my breath.
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#68
the BBC do read these comments, we do have influence, and you should watch the Politics Show where the interviewer asked Cable about this very important issue. It actually has legs, as does the Stuart MacLennan problem over Twitter comments. Trust me, they do understand, only the BBC has to be so careful, there are people out there who have them in their sights, so get ready to lock and load.
Now, in the Daily Politics Cable was also asked about the VAT and £389 qiouted on the poster. Now consider this, to pay the extra increase which they hypothocate about, then so many assumptions have to be made. What increase would there be in VAT, let me assume 2.5%. Now at that rate to pay an extra £389 you would have to buy vatable goods to the value of £15,560 per annum.
Now this calculated on the basis that VAT would be 20%, and that the existing rate is 17.5%, so at 17.5% the amount of VAT would be £2723, whilst at 20% the VAT would be £3112, a difference of £389. The figure in the liberal poster.
Now then, it is not talking about families, it is talking individuals, so are we seriously these figures. Because as a staistician I know about averages, and means, and standard deviations and all the other bits which go towrads statistics. So as I have said I used to calculate performance figures on investments by fund managers. People always trusted them when I calculated them to two decimal places, you know that if somebody tells you that the fund has increased by 3.49% that looks so much better than 3%, which is not all exact.
So what should happen is that with every figure on a poster, there must be a web address where anybody can see what assumptions have been made in calculating the figures quoted. There must be strict definitions of the terms used, what assumptions have been made, and a full explanation made as to what are actual figures, and what are hypothetical. Now this must have been done when showing these figures, so what would be wrong in quoting all the details, so the electorate can decide if there is any mendacity. Now this would be a fantastic use of the internet, information distributed at little cost, and available for all to see.
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Andrew,
in respect of any Cadbury Law I can so hear the sound of stable doors being slammed shut. Does nobody remember the Phoenix Four, and as for the closure of the Corus Plant, Mandelson, please.
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I thought immigration was supposed to be a hot election topic, yet suddenly the great contributers have nothing to say (C2 excepted for obvious reasons). I don't know if temporary workers here for less than 6 months pay NI, I know the longer term ones do. Perhaps a level playing field would be for UK citizens not to pay NI on the first 6 months of employment? I mean, that's inequality really, forget all this stuff about male and female.
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#69 it was the Politics Show, not Daily Politics, sorry about that, we must get our facts right, and correct any errors, the train is going to hit the buffers pretty soon, only not only does the driver not want to know, neither do the politicians in the passenger seats.
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The Cadbury law - I feel like I've died and gone to heaven. How blissful.
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64. Catch22
68. excellentcatblogger
Here's the link:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article7094308.ece
Probably will be seen by Labour supporters as a right wing smear because it's appeared in the Times.
Labour can't be that desperate can they??
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C2 - looks like you're feeling better now, ready for the fight, etc, with your complicated sums. Keep them on their toes.
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#69
my actual point is that individual people should actually calculate what they would have to spend, to spend the extra £389 of VAT. I mean I do not even receive £15,560 per annum, so what is going on, how could I spend money which I do not have to pay the £389, not unless I am meant to borrow it.
Talking about borrowing, can I have some extra interest on the money I am lending to the banks. I mean my savings, which as they are with a bank, they are lent to that bank, not government lending, my lending. So rather than Brown bleat on about low interest rates, would he tell me what he is going to do to to get banks to pay higher rates of interest to bank customers who have not spent all their money on wine, women, and song.
I don't want to subsidise the borrowers, I want a fair return on my savings.
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#66 menin
It's become a much greater problem now that the financial services bubble has burst - or, rather, it's become more highlighted, because it was a hidden problem before that. The rot set in as early as the 1980s, when it became popular to believe that the way forward was through the service sector rather than the manufacturing sector. In fact, the seeds might have been sown even earlier, when disillusionment with manufacturing was helped by extreme union behaviour.
It might ultimately turn out to be good for the country that the vulnerability of services and finance has been exposed, and attention is reverting to more solidly based industries that involve invention, advanced technology, product development, and expansion of manufacturing.
There's a long way to go yet, and it will be an uphill battle to replace lost skills, re-direct education, enthuse entrepreneurs, and encourage investment. Competition will be a major problem, and we also need to pull back or retain much of the control of companies, instead of losing this to foreign interests whose loyalties lie elsewhere and whose prime aim is exploitation for financial gain.
Which political party is most likely to provide the most support and encouragement? None of them have a good record, and Brown has expanded the public sector disgracefully for purely selfish reasons. It's going to be a toss-up.
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#75
I have almost come to a decision, only trouble is finding others to sign my nomination form. You see I am not going to electioneer, no knocking on doors, no party on my nomination papers, not even Independent. Say nothing, do nothing, absolute total silence, no link between myself and my real self. I will even have to withdraw from here during the election, but there lies the rub does it not.
You see as not being a candidate I can do and say what I think, no restrictions, but as a candidate would I have to declare every time that I am standing as a candidate. Would there be a question of impartiality, do I prefer my freedom, or do I kow tow.
I think that I prefer my freedom, but I have until 20th April to make my mind up, the last day for nominations. Confusion rained, no it didn't it poured, only it is very good weather here today. However, on the grounds of national security, I can do and say nothing.
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# 64
I hope they wouldn't be so foolish to send me one of their cards Catch22. It might set me off again.
I apologise for repeating the point, but the NHS should never be allowed to self assess. My experience of cancer care in Leicestershire was nothing short of disastrous, and if I hadn't written to my MP I wouldn't have received treatment at all. It took six weeks to have an emergency scan and my sick notes always referred to a stomch upset, which must be what we yokels call cancer in the shires. That nearly got me the sack for malingering but luckily my employers could see what the NHS couldn't. I'll spare you the details.
I wasn't allowed to write my school reports in my youth and we have seen enough evidence of MP's to know how people respond to temptation and pressure. The NHS in my area isn't a fraction as good as it tells us it is, but are we surprised.
That makes Gordon's cancer promises nothing but fatuous and offensive nonsense.
I feel better for that.
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#79
I used to do some hospital inspections. What struck me that they scored something let us say as a three. Now that was in the middle of the scale. They would ask me was that ok, and I would say seems fair. Then however I would point out that I have been to another hospital and they were not nearly as good as you at that thing, but they have also given themselves a three, so if as I think that you are better should you not have a four. There is the problem, they all gave themselves threes, but nobody then tested them to see if they should actually have been either a two or a four, it was absolute nonesense. There is a vast difference between being subjective, and objective.
As for the whole process, it costs tens of thousands to pay inspectors to move from one place to the other, hotels, travel, food, meetings, discussions, I mean I was surprised how little was actually done. Rather than have an inspection the people would have been better off actually doing the job.
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#61
I don't suppose that you have reviewed this one and found that it does not contravne the rules. I think that it is just because someone 'close' has complained, I might be wrong, but funnily enough for the first time a certain individual has actually posted something on my Facebook wall about this issue. I told you that your pages are very well read, and acted upon.
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C2 76 As far as I can see your sums are correct. The £15560 wouldn't relate to income it would be amount spent on vatable goods. I assume the libdems have used, eg, the average for a family of 4 pa. There are figures somewhere for such things.
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78 C2 Obviously you can't stand for election without saying who you are etc. I'm not sure of nomination rules - could a GP nominate you?
However all this national security, leaving the area etc, perhaps you could actually get round it by quite literally parachuting yourself into the appropriate area at the appropriate time?
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Andrew,
on the you seriously can't make it up this is now being reported in the press about Yvette Cooper, the wife of Ed Balls. The cameras zoomed in on a note which she wrote to Liam Byrne whilst attending a labour press conference, which showed her as having said:
'It's clearly second division today - presumably that's why we're allowed to do this?' she wrote to the Chief Secretary to the Treasury.
Byrne wrote back:
'Sort of like being allowed to play int he sand pit.'
Now no doubt you will have either of the pair on your show so that they can be asked to comment, or even Ed himself, because I would like to be a fly on the wall tonight in a certain bedroom.
Mind you did not a certain police man have to resign over allowing details of a raid which was to be made revealed in secret briefing notes. By the way whatever happened to those people who suffered from the raid, never did get to the bottom of that.
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77 M-J
What has been heartening this last year is how responsibly some management and employees of some of these industries have behaved. Companies which invest time in training staff are very reluctant to let skilled people go, remembering how only 2-3 years ago it was nigh on impossible to recruit skilled workers. The upshot is that in return for being retained many workers have taken effective cuts of 20-30% by working short time, cognisant of the grim reality that it is essential for their continued employment and their company's survival.
I find it quite amazing that Unite and other trade unions have sat back and watched as our manufacturing base has been slowly dismembered and yet choose to pick fights at this stage when the economy is in difficulties.
Now I don't suggest that an axe is wielded indiscriminately against the public sector - public services are there for a reason but without a shadow of doubt there are cuts and economies [not efficiencies] than can be made and should be made.
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C2 - regarding the nothing party that has no name. Don't people parachute onto 'X marks the spot', like a ballot paper?!
But if people are voting for nothing then they will get nothing - a constituency with no MP, just an empty seat in Parliament. Perhaps that's what they want.
Or you could call yourself -273 Kelvin (absolute zero) and then take a seat and stand for nothing, but you could speak. Though I'm sure others would argue about this.
Got to go and see if my parachute folding is any good. If not, good luck with the election.
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I'm surprised Yvette would write such a thing. She's been doing rather well recently.
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69 catch22
Thank you. It is encouraging that questiona are being asked and it does restore some of my faith in humanity. Like quite a few families cancer has struck at close relatives in several generations; the genetic link is there, but for a political party to use this as a political football goes beyond the pale.
71 leuctrid
The immigration issue and whether immigrants have taken the bulk of the jobs since 1997 is quite difficult to interpret without seeing a full movement analysis. When I worked in financial services we always provided a movement analysis for in force policies i.e. start position plus new business less exits equals end position. A similar analysis for employed persons working in Britain between 1997 and 2009 is more complex but definitely doable assuming data availability and exact definitions exist.
Attempting to draw conclusions from partial results is always tricky at the best of times. It certainly does not help with the intervention of Woolas inadvertently (or was it? I can't tell with Woolas) obfuscating with his Arsenal analogy. It is a pity that an opportunity has been wasted to show the integrity of using sound statistical techniques in a mature and positive environment, in sharp contrast to the climategate debacle.
76 catch22
I do hope that there will be an honest debate on VAT. Increasing the top rate on VAT will adversely affect primarily consumers on car purchasers: ironic that the car scrappage scheme has just ended. But would this not also have a huge impact on Government building projects? London Olympics 2012 hmm? Don't forget PFI.
Food is zero rated. Even changing the rate to 5 percent would present enormous problems to retailers and consumers alike. The real concern is that the politicians are so divorced from reality that they think that the elctorate can always be squeezed for more. MPs are already earning alomost 3 TIMES the national average salary! I would also like to see a mechanism whereby the Treasury's windfall was capped every time market oil/petrol prices surge: Treasury "profit" on high oil prices actually harms the economic recovery!
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Vince Cable seemed distinctly uncomfortable - even shifty - on the Politics Show, questioned by John Sopel. He struggled to explain why the Lib-Dem poster stated that you WOULD pay £389 more VAT under the Tories. After agreeing that it was speculation, not fact, he then had to admit that the Lib-Dems did not rule out an increase in VAT if they were in office.
And then, after again claiming that they were the only party to explain how they would achieve 15 billion saving by various cuts, he was lost to say how the rest of the necessary savings would be achieved.
In other words, Cable more or less neatly put the Lib-Dems in the same boat as the other two parties regarding explanations, although Sopel did point out to him that their economic policy was closely aligned with Labour's. A point that has been becoming more obvious over recent weeks.
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88 ECB - See no. 52-53 also, as I give Mr Neil my comments.
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Andrew,
why has there been no news from the front in respect of Afghnaistan. Have the embedded journalists been withdrawn. Have the soldiers been confined to barracks. Will Brown not be seen making any reference to dead soldiers. What is going on about service personnel and their uniforms. When will Brown completely disown those of his party who shouted at the tories that the retired generals were tory, which was why they had been critical of labour over equipment. Why has there not been more pressure put on Brown over the fact that he had to send a letter of clarification to the Chilcot Inquiry. Why so much use of private contract firms to protect our staff in Iraq, and Afghanistan. Why the continued support for the Quizling Karzai. So many whys I know, what about Jackson who sought his own legal advice before accepting the orders in Iraq.
The labour people want to keep the agenda on the economy, only it really isn't, there is still Kelly, there is still de Menezes, there is still Tomlinson. As for the House of Lords, what would be the point if the Lords are to be abolished for a fully elected second chamber. The more I see it the more I want a system more akin to America, we can keep the Queen, as Monarch, but we must have an elected President, an two fully elected Chambers, but the President must be able to appoint people, who are not elected, but do it for the service to their country, Kissinger, Rice, and so many others have served America with distinction, it is not a bad model to follow.
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C2 - it occurred to me, as I was hurtling towards the ground, that many prospective MP's etc may already be standing for nothing.
(Just a few broken bones. In me head. Could be an improvement, nothing to worry about, I'm told).
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If the claim about Labour using confidential health information to target cancer sufferers is true, then it is the most insane thing any political party could do. Apart from it being the most squalid and obscenely cynical attempt to manipulate people who have enough worries and concerns, it is a flagrant misuse of confidential data and I will make a very strong protest if I am contacted - to the Information Commissioner and anyone else I can challenge.
Andy Burnham is about as weak a minister as you could find, but surely he must run these ideas past Gordon first ? If not, I see a keyboard coming his way.
I can't say that I'm lying at home weeping, and I wouldn't consider I'm sensitive on the subject, but it's not something I'll countenance anyone playing games over. I've had enough of that from the NHS, and cancer sufferers don't need to feel any more exploited.
I find it hard to believe this can be true, purely because it could rank as the most disastrous act of any political party just prior to an election. The alleged abuse of a confidential medical database is horrific, and Gordon will find it hard to avoid blame if it's true, not that he wouldn't try.
Out of all the mishaps that could have sunk Gordon, this could rank as the most bizarre.It's so typical of a government that has shown complete disregard for people's privacy and personal data.
If it's true - Gordon is finished. It's that clear.
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#93
I totally agree, but there are people who want to kick this into the long grass. Don't get your knickers in a twist, move on with the times, what's your problem, don't worry about such minor details. In the meantime more air time given to the Organ Donor system, this is just getting beyond a joke, it never was anyway, but do these people have no shame. There were calls for Chris Grayling to be sacked over his comments about B&Bs, so how do these people get away with it, nobody takes any blame any more.
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#92
Are you after some sort of parachute payment, or are you like a favoured individual who will be parachuted into a rotten borough parliamentary seat. Slight change of subject but it is amazing listening to the commentators twisting and turning over the Englishman currently leading the Masters, in Augusta, references to British, and as for the metric bunch, they are seriously having trouble over the yards to the hole. they just seem to have trouble with the figures.
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Lester Abrahart wrote:
Andrew's use of statistics is rather simplistic.
**
Perhaps so Lester but at least he doesn’t count the red herrings you throw in.
As a general indication of what is happening in the UK the original figures are more than adequate. We could add factor after factor to try and confuse the issue and thats what Labour always do when they don’t like the figures.
Essentially Labour have done nothing to get the British born off welfare and into work and have taken no responsible measures to control our population. Yes there are things which mean the figures won’t be exact but most of the factors outside the figures are insignificant and some balance out, perhaps even to the point of making the situation worse than these figures look.
You seem to place a great deal of weight in the fact that your daughter wasn’t born in the UK but has moved back here. But how many in that category did so in between the two snapshots and how many moved in the other direction? You don’t balance that or recognise that there will be foreign born workers who have left in the time interval.
I am sure that you don’t believe that there are 1.7 million pensioners in ‘new jobs’.
No sorry Lester, wriggle as much as you like but Woolas and the who Labour government is still on the hook over this one.
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Well it hadn't occurred to me to get some sort of payment. But anyway, if you're going to stand it's you who's got to do the parachuting.
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GomerPyle #93
I believe that it is true that somehow Labour have had access to highly
confidential data concerning cancer sufferers,and Andy Burnham needs to
get himself on TV and explain how this has happened.
Whether it be a cancer sufferer or someone in the best of health,to send
these cards is scaremongering and totally irresponsible.
I knew that Labour would use any shabby trick that they thought they could get away with to retain power,and this shows just how low they are
prepared to go.
How dare they frighten people who are already feeling vulnerable.
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A stats test for coincidence on the 2 sets of figures would show this 1.7m to be a coincidence.
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Curiouser and curiouser.
"The data management company Experian confirmed that both Labour and the Conservatives use its Mosaic database, which divides voters into 67 groups and identifies likely cancer patients using anonymised hospital statistics, including postcodes and the diagnoses of patients."
I'm surprised that a company should willingly identify itself with this event, but perhaps they haven't fully considered the consequences.
The illogical statement that you can identify likely cancer patients from anonymised statistics is clearly absurd, and I'm not sure where the postcode fits in, as a record with a postcode isn't anonymous, and if it includes a disgnosis, it's too personal for an outside company to be trawling through it.
It's bad enough what the government are accused of having done, but they had better also make a statement as to what information is being made available to a commercial company for profit.
It's not just the people who have been contacted who are affected, It's anyone who has ever had a medical test. When I had my kidney removed I was given an HIV test without my consent, simply because my immunne system had taken a holiday. I was clear, though I would never have known if I hadn't obtained my medical records.
All your most intimate medical details could be available - for a price.
Gordon - explain.
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Andrew,
some people just have no confidence in you and your moderators to pick up on the theme of the day. The sending out of notices to cancer sufferers is totally unacceptable and disgusting. It is now being discussed on Radio 5 at 8:35.
A quarter of a million leaflets were distributed, hitting both cancer and non cancer sufferers. But the post cards were personalised, addressed to individuals.
I believe that the threat of cancer is similar to the threat of terror on our streets from Afghanistan and Pakistan. We are meant to live in fear, fear of everything. Also I am getting angry about the use of people who are so brave and courageous when suffering from cancer.Like the soldiers are always the best, a great future, brave and courageous. Well I have had cancer, and I am neither brave nor courageous, I just try to get on with life.
I think that the whole of the labour policy on cancer is wrong, I think that there will be an awful lot of people who will receive treatment which they really won't need. But also that they seem to be concentrating on cancers which women specifically suffer from, to the detriment of treatment for all sections of society.
Labour really ought to be concentraing more on care for the elderly, and not waste money on using cancer as a stick to beat the conservatives with. They are being highly emotive, in fact I think that they are using emotional black mail to get votes, despicable, and I am no Tory.
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Who started all this anyway? Where did MrN get this from about it may or may not be a coincidence?
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Wow this "abuse" of medical info has really stired up a hornets nest amongst those on this site, Catch,xcat,TBG,Gomer,7star
One has mentioned the organ donor debacle. I recall the furore when those applying for junior doctor jobs had all their personal details put on the web. Not very good with data the NHS.
This is all very relevant to me as supporting evidence as to why I am right to opt out of the computerised Summary Care Record. The papers about this have landed on mats round here this last week or so. They dont include an opt out form, you have to send for one or download one. According to the blurb I should have been able to get one at the GPs surgery but they had no idea what I was talking about.That gives you confidence does it not ? They got me one in a week though.It does include an attempt to scare you into complying and what must now be considered a very dubious section on "risks and protections".
The latter includes an assurance that your records cannot be accessed by the state. Do I believe that ? No way.
The reports re the "cancer canvassing" suggest more and more that the information thar this was based on could not have been anonymous. I hope the data protection registrar is going to investigate.
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This cancer debacle has greater ramifications than I realised.
Before I had my kidney removed I was given an HIV test, without my consent, but significantly I only discovered this when I asked for my medical notes. Apparently my immunde system had gone on holiday, and in line with my treatment I was neither consulted nor advised.
Is this information also accessible to outside commercial enterprises for a fee ? What about information on abortions, STD's and other sensitive information ? There should be no way that any commercial body should be able to access the information and use it for commercial purposes, and it can only be done if the government has allowed free acces to our information without us being told.
This issue doesn't just affect cancer patients. This could affect life insurance, job prospects and even your children if a onnection can be drawn. This is more than just a scandal - it's an outrage and a major catastrophe for the government.
There can be no explanation but I want Gordon on TV to explain what he has been doing with my most sensitive personal information and details of who it has been handed out to. This type of scandal can bring down a government, and that would be unique just prior to an election.
I'm quite stunned, and when people realise what's happened there'll be a heck of an outcry.
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GP 100 - yes, that quote is near impossible to understand. But you haven't cited it!
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The quote came from the Daily Telegraph which, I believe, originates from the original Times article which states
"Experian, the data management company, confirmed that both Labour and the Conservatives use its Mosaic database, which divides voters into 67 groups. The databases can use anonymised hospital statistics, including postcodes and the diagnoses of patients, to identify the likely addresses of those with particular illnesses."
To be honest, however that is read it appears to represent a claim of being able to obtain identifying data along with diagnoses.
I'm thoroughly gobsmacked. It's probably the most outrageous intrusion into personal data in UK history if true. It was always the horror that companies could gain access to this sort of information to 'cull' the weak or infirm by enabling organisations to discriminate between the sick and healthy, and here it is.
The uses such personal information could be put to are endless and ominous. Anything from physical weakness to mental anxiety woould make such data commercially invaluable.
I would expect anyone disclosing my data to a third party to be slung in jail, and if government are doing it, then I would expect those ministers responsible to be put away. This is not a secretarial error or a minor matter. The company involved clearly believe they have full authority and access to this information, and aren't afraid to say so.
The use of the word 'postcode' in that sentence is damning.
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Thanks. You haven't put the date. I'll guess it's the last couple of days. I wish you'd get in the habit of giving the full reference of the quote!!
I think the quote is entirely imcomprehensible no matter how you look at it. It could even be a printing error.
However, these 'flyers' were not sent solely to people with illness, just people in certain areas.
So I don't think the politicians can cull you just yet.
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The word postcode - doesn't mean house number or person's name I think we're still safe for the moment.
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This issue of sending literature to what appears to be deliberately
chosen target groups is receiving little coverage on the news channels.
These leaflets,cards,whatever they are,are saying that cancer patients
lives will be put at risk if the Conservatives win the election.Now,I
havnt seen that or heard that from any Tory spokesman,nor do I expect to.
Obviously one expects mudslinging during an election campaign,but this is
so much more than that and whichever fool thought of it should be named
and shamed.Pronto.
The thought that such sensitive data is not considered sacrosanct leads
one to wonder what other information can be accessed so easily.
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GP - can't find quote at the mo, but did see in DT a 26yr old man from Bournemouth, in a coma woke up when his life support machine was turned OFF. That's progress for you, we'll all live forever.
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I'll be cautious, and win the admiration of the moderators, by mentioning something I have gleaned from elsewhere, and which makes this matter of the cancer cards even more digraceful.
Apparently, it has been reported that the company responsible for distributing the leaflets "has won accounts sending out mail for the Department of Health and Cancer Research UK."
Oh really ?
Gordon has chosen to swim in the slurry and he deserves the smell he'll acquire for doing so.
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GP - I think the problem is the word 'addresses' in the quote, which of course makes us instantly think - full address, exact house. But 'addresses' has also been used to mean locality, region, roads, for example which I think is what this means, NOT down to the exact house.
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Did you know... only 20% of the population ever get cancer.... and 20% of cancers cure themselves without any treatment.
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Andrew,
Gordon Brown when answering PMQs very frequently mentioned 'Lord Ashcroft' as did Mandelson.
I wonder if they would like to answer questions on Victor Dahdaleh, and his involvement with labour politicians.
As for Ashcroft, has he actually done anything wrong. When Blair was questioned by the police over cash for honours, did the name of Ashcroft come up? Is there not a certain Levy who was also questioned over cash for honours.
I still have seen no satisfactory answer over loans to political parties, and who was the treasurer of the labour party at the time, and who is his wife, and is he now a prospective labour candidate, and is he something to do with the Unite Union. Only some questions, because you see Andrew, the figures just don't add up.
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Good Morning Andrew,
just can't wait for the labour party manifesto, which has been well trailed, but will no doubt have no figures, apart from page numbers, and the figure of the great leader on the front, and a British flag I hope, but no soldiers, must forget the soldiers during the war, sorry occupation, of Afgahnistan. Maybe the manifesto should contain the names of all the dead in Browns war, it is a war really, a forgotten army in a forgotten war.
Actually, I bet that Brown will actually start by naming the latest dead soldier, brave and courageous, we should all be proud, sombre, steadfast, so middle class. I remember the use of the widows who are so loving of their dead husband, family man, will be missed, sad loss, lovely dad, only trouble is Andrew that these soldiers love their wives, loved ones, and family so much that they go off to foreign lands, and they kill people, and they don't really care about their families because otherwise they wouldn't leave them behind. He will also probably mention the sad loss of the Polish hierarchy, our thoughts are with you in these trying times. Yeah right whatever.
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You're being deliberately obtuse Leuctrid and I won't spell out the ramifications or likely repercussions. The media are trying to be so even-handed over the election, the whole of the news might as well be run by Gordon and Cameron, but there's no chance of this sliding into obscurity. You only have to do a Google search to see the impact this news is having.
At the end of the day, if the media doesn't report the news, then people will go elsewhere for it. Eastern bloc countries found this out.
Gordon's pronouncements on cancer care have been offending me for months, and to cap it all with such a cack handed and cynically exploitative move, making one of his major manifesto policies blow up in his face, and create a scandal, on the day prior to the manifesto launch, is a catastrophe of monumental proportions.
Even casting aside the cynical exploitation of cancer sufferers, the question of how they were able to target people with a specific illness is likely to lead to an inquiry at the very least. If I should be so lucky as to receive the letter, I'll be registering complaints with every pertinent body I can find. I'm sure that some people will look into the potential of legal redress.
Perhaps I should let Gordon into something a sensitive person might already know. Someone who has had cancer doesn't want to keep hearing about it all the time, and least of all receive letters about it. I can't fathom why Gordon won't leave the topic alone.
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Andrew,
one of the nationals is running a series of photos on their site under the legend 'behind the scenes with Gordon Brown' and they are treasures. The best one by far is the desk, with a sketch on it of the seating plan for a Press Conference. This little gem shows the details of who will sit where, and considering the note which I referred to given by Yvette Cooper, wife of Ed Balls, to a colleague then this one lets another cat out of the bag, there is a reference made to the 'Press Pen'.
Now we all know what are traditionally kept in pens, so I would have referred to this as the 'Press Area' or something of that nature, but 'pen' says something don't you think. Labour could have won this upcoming election, they have thrown it away. If only Brown had come to the country when he first took power, they will nver forgive him, and as for Mandelson. I think that this will be a repeat of the Ramsay MacDonald era of the 1930s.
Just as an aside I hope that we might just have a return to real cabinet government, only the number of people in the Cabinet must be no more than ten.
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I've been a member of more than one unique club though the cancer sufferers club is open for anyone to join, but you should be careful how you approach members. It is also dangerous to assume you know how our minds work, though I'm sure we're not all the same.
The statistics I heard Leuctrid were that one third of people will get cancer and a further third of people will die of something else before cancer is diagnosed, but to a cancer sufferer only one statistic is relevant. Whatever statistics make you feel happy you can believe, but I wouldn't place too much faith in any self curing forms.
I haven't given permission for the NHS to pass my intimate medical information on to anyone else, anonymised or not. The fact that they may, or may not, then be able to specifically identify me individually is irrelevant, as it appears that the Labour Party have evidenced that they were able to do just that.
It seems that this hasn't happened in Scotland, where NHS records aren't under UK government control. I sense that Gordon's just going to keep digging a bigger hole when he should just prostrate himself and beg forgiveness, but that's not in his nature. His suffering will be a comfort to me.
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Andrew,
as we awake this morning there is more news of figures this time in respect of Greece. Now it is not long since I pointed out to tour readers the comment by Brown where he referred to the bale out of Greece which had been agreed. Only trouble is it wasn't agreed, apparently now it is. Now previously Brown had said that there would be no contribution by the British taxpayer, only trouble is he put in a caveat, no 'direct' payment by the British taxpayer.
Now let us assume that despite our dire financial sitaution we contribute with many others to the IMF. So the IMF then contribute to the Greek bale out, so we make no direct contribution, but we make indirect ones. I am surprised that others did not notice this. Or have they noticed but stayed silent. People must also remember the comment by Brown in respoect of the IMF, unlike in the past there must not be a feeling of shame if a country has to go to the IMF, to bale them out.
It will not be long before we too have to go to the IMF, trust me, we will.
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Andrew,
it is not long ago since there was a furore over money being given to the PCTs, for extra support for carers, what has happened to that money, it would appear from the breaking news this morning on wages for senior PCT individuals that we are now seeing where the money is going.
Our local PCT was recently merged and they relocated their office, all got new desks, and as for high calibre people, they were the same calibre as before, and the number of high calibre staff was increased, shame on them, shame on them all. As for the cleanrrs, the nurses, the front line staff. By the way surely we need to see from the government as complete list of all front line staff, what does the government regard as being a front line staff. Would a child psychologist on about £40,000 a year be regarded as being front line staff.
In respect of the problem over cancer, maybe the government would like to announce a guarantee to say that anybody who thinks that they may have dementia, or alzheimers, or that their loved one thinks that they may be a sufferer, that they will be seen by their GP, and given drugs to slow down the progress of the condition, then I would possibly say that I can trust this mendacious government to deliver one of their 'guarantees'.
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Andrew,
if I were to give a guarantee about anything, and then did not meet with the conditions of that guarantee what will happen. When I buy some goods there is a guarantee attached to the goods. Can we expect to see the terms and conditions attached to the labour party manifesto printed. Just as I have asked for all the details of the liberal VAT time bomb advert, as was brilliantly covered by the Politics Show on Sunday, I demand, as should any voter, to see the terms and conditions of the labour 'guarantees'. The same apllies to all the party manifestoes.
What I think is also indicative is that Brown has not gone to meet with Obama on the most important issue facing the planet today, namely nuclear proliferation, instead he sends Miliband, I mean you can't make it up. As for Copenhagen!
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Andrew,
lets not forget that we are at war in Afghanistan because today there is a massive Shura taking place, and the government has what to say, or is it another indication that just as we are ready to send more equipment to that country, that we are about to retreat, again with our tails between our legs.
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121. At 08:29am on 12 Apr 2010, Catch22
'Labour is promising'. I heard it myself, live on a PRasNews 'what will.. er.. might be aid filler this morning on Breakfast 'News'.
And there are guarantees. If, it seems, based on compo from the public's pocket than any backsliding pols' careers.
As a truly substantive manifesto I anticipate this sailing through with no critique.
Though if the mighty interrogator Sian manages to bring a tinge of colour to Mr. 'I can't tell you yet' Miliband's cheeks in what was possibly one of the world's most embarrassing political 'interviews' yet, if the first division ever wake from their docile slumbers it might get interesting.
Here's hoping Mr. Neil might have that eyebrow cocked and ready.
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Andrew,
listening to the Today programme this morning, labour is saying that there will be a better off in work guarantee, I mean what sort of guarantee can they give. This is utter total madness, all these guarantees, surely not worth the paper they are written, only let us see the terms and conditions attached to the 'guarnatee'.
There is no way that I want my future pension payments to be linked to wages, maintain the link to the Retail Prices Index.
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Andrew,
so Brown is going to do something about 1,000 mediocre or failing schools. So how has it come to pass that we have 1,000 mediocre or failing schools after so many years of laboour governments. They just don't get it, so much money poured into schools, and there are apparently 1,000 mediocre or failing schools. Bit like the liberals and their £389 VAT bombshell. Why not 757 mediocre and failing schools, you get my drift, this rounding problem!
The train is so going to hit the buffers, big time.
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You'd have thought that a party with canny people like Lord Mandelson involved would be able to work out that just because modern technology enables you to perform neat marketing tricks, that it doesn't utomatically follow that you should do it. There has to be a self-censoring mechanism that questions the taste, value and benefit of doing such things.
It is quite amazing to see how this has blazed through forums, especially cancer related ones, and yet the TV media appear to be ignoring the subject. I suspect that they are under under such pressure from the political parties that they barely dare venture outside the press releases they issue daily, in case they face a reckoning at a later date. Unfortunately that will only render the TV less relevant to the political debate, and the anodine TV election spectacle will be a tru masterpiece in stage-managed boredom.
The two issues over the Labour cancer mail shot are, the poor taste of such a thing, and whether or not it was targeted and, if so, how this was achieved. So far, on the last point, there is circumstantial evidence that it was targeted, and I urge Gordon to ignore the issue, because nothing will do him more harm among those he was trying to appeal to.
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Andrew,
one of the orgainisations I used to work for decided that they would only manage the assets of people with over £100,000 of assets to manage on a private client basis. So they wrote to all of these people saying that becaise they didn't have £100,000 available they should think about taking their money elsewhere, even though they might have had over £100,000 when they came to us.
So the letters went. Now we also managed pension funds, worth hundreds if not thousands of millions of pounds. Guess what, some of the private clients were also trustees of the pension funds. So, guess what happened next. Well I'll tell you. The trustees promptly said if you don't want me, then you won't have the pension fund, which paid fees, quite substantial fees, to have their funds managed.
Some people in the marketing department did not stay long after that fiasco. I bet that Brown is even now spitting blood, and is not a happy man at all. I wonder if he has kept his temper under control. The intyeresting thing is that the post cards were sent out some weeks ago, or so I understand, only I think the media have been sitting on this for the right moment.
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Andrew,
why exactly are labour being allowed to announce their party manifesto in a hospital. I thought that using government policy for such a purpose was outside the rules. Also when will labour be seriously questioned over the postcard, will this become the big issue. Will this become known as the postcard election, just like the election of Jennifers ear!
Does not the issue of these postcards encapsulate all that is wrong with our society, especially in respect of our basic freedom, to speech, and to freedom from intrusion into our lives.
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Andrew,
so no change to income tax rates. However, we can now take it that there will be changes to the bands. Higher rate taxes at 50% for those over £150,000, well now we can take it that that number will be lowered to something like £100,000. Questions please on Daily Politics. By the way Brown is such a family man, as is Sarah, so who is looking after the kids.
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Andrew,
I hear clarification already about where the manifesto launch is. It is still apparently owned by a private company, so that's alright then. As for Brown walking to the office, then maybe they really ought not to walk along the cycle path. I am just so excited, nice music, I hope the press are in their pens.
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Andrew,
Harman has just said that we are here in this new hospital, so is it a private building or is it new hospital. They really don't get it. A new acute NHS hospital says Brown, so it is a hospital, and therefore should never be used by any political party. This is fraud, have they paid to use the building, because if they haven't then the shareholders of the company who own it are deprived of income. We are in the future business, what on earth is the man eating, bananas.
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A bit rich for the Monday show to have a feature on the internet election at a time when North Briish politics is off-limits in the BBC blogosphere.
Brian Taylor on Friday issued a promise to keep a thread open, broken on Sunday on the ironically named The Twitter election thread.
Coupled with draconian new moderation policies which render anything the teeniest bit off-topic removed, this is an affront to democracy when even the Nick Robinson threads are being left open.
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Andrew,
I disagree with the previous comment. For example I think that I have become quite infamous for my contiued and original comments in respect of sponsorship of rugby and football by RBS and Northern Rock. Now Brown specifically mentioned when being questioned on the ownership of the banks this very issue. As I have said your blog is very well respected, as are the comments attached. Large numbers (link to figures there) I think read and agree with you, and the divergent viewpoints expressed, people just have to be clever.
Also Brown did not look comfortable when being asked about the building they were using, nor cancergate, and the postcards. On the building I thought that there was a brilliant question on the cost of the new hospital, and has the building actually been signed off, and given all the usual fire certificates, was it authorised to be used by the council as a meeting hall, and was it insured, and who paid the insurance preiums, if the NHS, then it was an NHS building, if not then can fire certificates be transferred.
People really should not walk on cycle paths, there ought to be a law, actually there should be a law that where there is a cycle path then no cyclist should be allowed on the road, and pedestrains should not walk on cycle paths, there should be barriers.
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Ah Andrew,
the future, we must look to the future. Does anybody remember Charlie Drake when he had a reference to manyana, and promptly got hit by an arrow. Look at the golden future on the labour party manifesto. Sun, wheat, blue sky, aahhhh. In the meantime that is actually an autumnal picture, crops ready to be harvested, but then what comes, not summer, but winter, long dark winter days. Now if the picture were spring, then the future is bright, the future is...you follow my drift. They really should have spoken to the Met Office down here in Exeter, they might have given them better figures.
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The argument on tax is the argument the political parties want, and it's totally meaningless. The fact is that both parties will be raising taxes monumentally. Whether they do it in indirect taxes or income tax is largely irrelevant.
Spending ? Both parties are committed to the pointless waste of money on AGW that will see us flushing money away on a vast scale to developing and emerging countries on meaningless and unproductive projects. It may be good for our soul to finance Chinese industrial expansion, but people won't see the funny side if it's at the expense of the NHS. Once the increase in energy costs starts to bite next winter, there really will be unrest, and none of this will have been addressed by our politicians.
What we need is an Alex Salmond fighting for England. I can't help believing that Scotland will come out of this much better than the rest of the country, for reasons related purely to selfish Labour Party ambition.
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Gordon appears to be walking into one door post after another in his clumsy ham-fisted attempts to make unsubtle points over the NHS. It is mentioned in an article that the hopital building he used was built under one of these monstrously inflated PFI schemes, which are such a drain on the NHS budget.
I think Gordon should quit while he's losing, as he looks destined to come an almighty cropper sooner or later.
Gordon has a scheme for everything, with promises galore and visions of a workers' paradise with picnics in glorious sunshine. My own glimpse of the reality of his dream of the over costly and poorly run NHS, is that it merely serves as another feeding trough for those who fall in line with his ideology.
Who awarded hospital administrators their recent inflation busting pay rise ? Where does he think this money comes from and does he think that NHS funds are better utilised in the back pockets of administrators than on treatment ? Undoubtedly someone earned 'Brownie' points by allowing him to use the hospital buildng for his manifesto launch, but isn't that sort of cronyism what he is always lecturing us is so wrong with the Tories ?
If Gordon is promising us a Britain 'fair for all' that would have to count as a major u-turn in policy, and I haven't seen any sign yet of it happening.
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The current government has gradually been revealed as a government of lies and dirty tricks. From McClennan to the cancer shots and McBride, from the class war to the 10p tax and the pension fund robbery, from the Iraq lies to defence equipment lies and Brown's false evidence, from the distorted use of anti-terror laws to punish hecklers to the 50p pension increase and the small print of every budget, from a manifesto promise for a Lisbon Treaty referendum to immigration cover-ups and dubious statistics...and so it goes on.
And they still keep trying to resurrect the 'nasty perty' accusations of the 1990s for the Tories. The Tories are certainly not 'whiter than white', but the government are treating the voters as idiots if they think that their own faults aren't obvious.
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116 GP I'm not offering an opinion, just a comment. You don't want to jump in feet first without getting your facts right. But those giving comments aren't a representative X-section of the population, lots of party activists e.g.
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116 Gomer
Agree with you here, Brown seems awkwardly baffling sometimes - just like the non-handshake when outside No.10 with Obama, he's been told to shake hands with everyone and anything. When he came out of the Chilcott thing he shook hands with a security man, if it had been a brown bear I think he would have shook it's paw. It's as though now he's been prompted to shake hands with everyone.
I saw him trying to attempt to shake hands with a young child being held by a mother and almost grabbed the child's foot.
So it it with this cancer thing. He seems unable to let things drop and takes them to the extreme. It is so obviously 'programmed' he is like a robot and can't stop.
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Andrew,
I would like for a psychologist to look at the manifesto conference at the time that Brown refers to Pilkington. A very strange reaction I thought, I might be wrong, but it was so, well starnge.
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# 138
I've not eaten since Thursday so I do tend to fade in and out a little, but I can't quite follow how your idea that cancer sufferers airing their outrage at Gordon's wish to turn their illness into a political opportunity qualifies them as political activists.
I try to behave as normally and politely as possible without appearing abnormal, but if someone chooses to push their nose into my private hell I have no qualms about giving them my interpretation of a buzz saw at work. Just one of my delightful experiences was to have the epidural fail and be left without pain relief overnight and for half a day. Of course many have died of negligence at the hands of the NHS, and this makes me one of the lucky ones. I just have an insight into pain most people will never experience and this is not the place to enlighten anyone.
I want the NHS we've got to be accountable, responsible and for it to be properly governed with the opinion of patients being of utmost importance. Too many patients become little more than 'crash test dummies' with poor outcomes excused as being the fault of the patient.
The NHS in my part of the country is so far away from current standards that Gordon's promises are nothing more than cynical lies, and he should stop claiming to be ignorant of how the NHS fails, MP's abuse their expenses and banks play fast and loose with money.
We don't pay him to be ignorant. If his only answer to all that goes wrong is ignorance, it is an admission of his failure to be able to do the job he seeks.
What did you say again Leuctrid ?
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Gomer@148
Having read your posts over the last few months, I can see you have been treated appallingly by the NHS.
It cheapens politics for politicians to hijack people’s lives in the furtherance of their own prospects.
The NHS is not a political toy it should be there to serve us; we should not contribute for a lifetime only to be turned away when we need it most.
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141 GP
P1. - I didn't. I'm not giving an opinion. You're telling the entire world your private medical business!! I'm not stopping you from commplaining about the NHS or anything else.
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And why haven't you eaten since Thursday, sitting there worrying and getting anxious about everything.
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The woman from Ghana who was over here legitimately for medical treatment, and deported to die as she wouldn't be able to get the medicine she needed in Ghana.
So back to immigration.
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I believe that the lady from Ghana had outstayed a visa to study, so her intention had never been to immigrate into the UK. The problem would be that establishing a precedent in her case would make it a way for every US resident (and the rest) to receive free health care for those without medical cover. The NHS already provides treatment free to visitors in a way that many countries don't and there have to be rules, otherwise the system will be in total collapse.
I am only too aware how much of a lottery life and death is, and I know many have suffered much worse than I did.
Putting my own life against all those being lost in Afghanistan, Afghan and ISAF, and it is as nothing, and Gordon's justification for our involvement is as false the many other excuses he is so readily able to deploy from his briefcase.
The danger of Gordon fashioning his campaign as a replica of Tony B's is that Tony always was a triumph of spin over reality, and I see the similarity only too well.
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This is a phony election, the real one will take place in 18 months time with a new cast.
Ask yourself who in their right mind would want to win this election?
Only the power crazed or the inexperienced. The former is Brown, the latter is Cameron and Clegg.
The Power Brokers in the Conservative Party don't want to win this election. To do so, would incur the rage of the voters, the unions and the markets. Much better to let Labour/Liberals take the flak and have to go back to the country in 18 months as failures.
The Grandees, William Hague and Kenneth Clarke all realise this, so to does Peter Mandelson, who will say he did his best to help Gordon, but he just was not up to the job. PM new leader of Labour???
THE MARKETS WILL DETERMINE THE FINAL OUTCOME NOT THE VOTERS!!!!
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Andrew,
so the British Army is the best in the world, they are very brave and courageous, there is nobody to compare to their committment to the cause of bringing peace to the world, and the names of the dead were read out by Brown before PMQs. I find it interesting that only one death since the election was called, the embedded reporters unembedded, the soldiers confined to barracks, probably anybody injured will be kept on life support until after the election so that nobody can make political capital, out of any deaths. No funeral processions through Wooton Basset.
So imagine my surprise when I read of the following case involving compensation to a soldier over child care arrangements:
The judge who ruled on the MoD's appeal called it an unusual case, because Cpl DeBique was a Foreign and Commonwealth soldier serving in the British Army, as well as being a single mother.
So we cannot even find enough women to sign up that we have to get people from abroad to join our forces. What has been going on. I thought that the problems had been sorted over massive payments to women, nothing seems to have changed. As for bringing in immigarnts to fight, you can't make it up.
Carry on fighting boys, your country, and your pals need you, support your fellow soldiers, die to keep terror off the streets of our country, Brown is a disgrace, why no comment about this. One soldier has recently died, from Brown, nothing, this is the forgotten war, forgotten heroes, and still the Baha Mousa Inquiry identifies all the problems, lack of proper training in caring for prisoners, and detainees.
Just how compensation will this cost the taxpayer, we have in this case so much which is a metaphor for the problems in our country, the figures I'm afraid don't add up. British jobs for British workers, well how about a British Army made up of British people.
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Andrew,
with regard to the labour party manifesto, should a family really be looking into the sunset, is there not going to be a call on the scarce resources of the NHS for treatment to the eyes, no NHS glasses anymore so I suppose that doesn't matter.
It is also a sunset, so is the sun at last setting on a discredited socialist enterprise. As for the family is this Gordon, Sarah and the kids, it is also Autumn, with the corn rather for gathering, then we have winter, is this the image which labour want us, we can all look at life through rose tinted spectacles.
Mind you not much art work in the conservative manifesto, simple, no nonsense, just blue. Very austerity.
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Andrew,
going back briefly to the manifesto, I am suddenly reminded of Hiroshima, of looking into a nuclear explosion, just before the family are hit by the rush. I am sure that I can't be the only one analysing the cover for 'the message' only it is as many others have noted somehow 1920s and 1930s. There is something actually dark and sinister, the shadows going in different directions, the child on the mans shoulders, the girl with the mother holding the childs hand. A rural scene, totally unlabour, no animals in the fields, complete wrong combination of trees, shadows cast with nothing to cast the shadow. I am surprsied that there are no hunters galloping across the fields. It is just so 'idealistic' and will it appeal to urbanites, reminding them of the fantastic life we have in Devon, whilst they work in the dark satanic mills, only there aren't any. Nobody works, no roads, how did the family get to this point, no transport system, this is not the picture of a future fair for all. It is serfdom, it is actually a wonderful metaphor for my England, and it is England, it is the sun setting on our country, it is actually very depressing.
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Of the many fallacies that politicians, especially Gordon, are spoon feeding to us as fact, one of the prime ones is that spending plans are being cut. Has he forgotten all about climate change and the eye watering amounts of money being promised to countries like China to attempt to encourage them to reduce CO2 emissions ?
The government will be cutting things we expect but it won't stop them splurging money on new ideas. In the financial industry they call it 'churning'. You highlight the new spending as exciting new initiatives as you keep silent about what's being taken away with the other hand.
New money isn't created by government accounting. Whatever it announces that it is spending, is coming from somewhere, whether it's Cameron or Gordon saying it. It doesn't matter if it's going to the landed gentry, banks or the industry of China, what we pay to them will be paid for by increased taxes or reduced public services, and as people feel the pain in the coming months, many of these planned schemes will wither on the vine.
On the issue of the lady from Ghana, there are plenty of UK citizens dying unnecessarily of cancer and I would have been one of them if I hadn't contacted my MP to push for treatment. I wouldn't wish death from cancer on anyone but, as with all things, it can be overwhelmed by its own generosity. My concern is for those who allow themselves to be thwarted by a system that is rationing treatment to its own citizens, and it's happening already. The cosy belief that the NHS will care for your every healthcare need is comforting, but largely a myth and, as ever, those least able to press their case will lose out.
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I too thought the front of the Labour manifesto seemed odd. Very end-of-the-War. Ideal family looking forward to the post-War utopia. Also quite Stalinist except for the lack of sturdy peasants scything fields of golden grain.
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The picture on the front cover of the Labour manifesto resembles the
illustrations used in the pamphlets given out by the Jehovah Witnesses.
All that is missing is the lion laying down with the lamb.
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Good afternoon each & Andrew
The recent budget got me thinking...and little has changed.
On Hearing the Budget.
My heart aches, and drowsey numbness pains
My sense, as though of hemlock I had drunk,
Or emptied some dull opiate to the drains
One minute past, and Lethe-wards had sunk:
"Tis not through envy of thy happy lot,
But being too happy in thine happiness,-
That thou, light-winged Dryad of the trees
In some melodious plot
Of beechen green, and shadows numberless,
Singest of summer in full-throated ease.
...
Forlorn! the very word is like a bell
To toll me back from thee to my sole self!
Adieu! the fancy cannot cheat so well
As she is fam'd to do, deceiving elf,
Adieu! adieu! thy plaintive anthem fades
Past the near meadows, over the still stream,
Up the hill-side; and now 'tis buried deep
In the next valley-glades:
Was it a vision, or a waking dream?
Fled is that music:- Do I wake or sleep?
[With thanks to Keats and The Guardian.]
So, now at least we are up-to-date.
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To be honest, it reminds me of wartime German poster art and post war East German art of the romanticised workers' paradise variety. Perhaps that connection will be lost on a lot of people nowadays but there is an undercurrent of unreality to it of an ominous kind. I'm sure they didn't wish to evoke those associations, but using highly stylistic formats in media is full of pitfalls, and it's not always easy to know quite what you're saying subliminally by accident. It's not the sort of things to be decided by politicians around a table with a pot of coffee if they value their media image.
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150 Catch 22
Yes, it reminds me of a life that couldn't possibly be real!
But does anyone else think it's a little 'hammer and sickle-ish'
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I think some Labour cabinet members are nodding to their continental Trotskyist heritage in the smug sort of in-joke that would appeal to both to their conceit and 'laboured' wittiness.
Poor old Gordon has to endure them turning his election campaign into a witty homage to their antecedents. I suspect that they're also having a snigger behind his back that he can't see it.
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Nobody got anything to say from 6.17 pm ?????????????????????/
Well to return to NHS debacles I have just settled down to complete my Summary Care Record opt out form only to find it is headed "request". It is not a request it is my instruction. There are no notes on how I check my requirement has been actioned, anyone know ?
And on going back a month or two or three remember the discussion on the broken down Eurostar trains, people trapped for hours ? Well I confess to being interested in model railways and sometimes to
check on things you have to check the real thing. Guess what ? When checking on Class 73
diesel electrics I learned that several are used as "thunderbird" locos, ie they rescue broken down trains.
Eurostar had two which were made redundant in 2007. Dont remember that coming out in the enquiry !
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Good Morning Andrew, and anybody else who is reading this comment,
I am hearing on the Today programme this morning that Brown is now admitting to 'mistakes' regulation of the banks, the 10p tax rate, that sort of stuff.
This is exactly the same sort of 'trick' which Blair pulled before he went before the Chilcot Inquiry. The debate which is to be held tomorrow evening, if I was Brown, this is what I would be saying, look I have admitted to my mistakes, get over it, move on, I have learnt 'stuff' and I should really have been even more forceful when I wanted change, but I listened to the banking experts, and I really should have listened more to those who did not agree with the way things were going.
However, they bullied me into submission, with their arguments, the bankers I'm afraid conned me as much as they conned the countries. I could not do it on my own, they gave me the figures and I trusted them. I should have listened to others, but I have learnt my lesson, in the last years of my life I will recant and repent, I will wear sack cloth and ashes, and every morning I will set my jaw and get to work on beating up other governments so that they also agree to taxing the banks, and I will be surprised when it goes even more pear shaped.
Actually, life is nothing other than a series of pyramid selling schemes, or even worse it is no different to the old fun game of pass the parcel, or the one where you chase around the room and somebody removes a chair, until two people are chasing around trying to sit on one chair, the winner takes it all.
I am looking forward to the debates, but where is the debate on how we ended up in Iraq, where is the debate over Afghanistan. No doubt we will hear about our brave and courageous military in Afghanistan, and Chilcot is being held, and we will learn lessons, and lets move on to the future, the future is bright, let's all be happy, we are all utilitarians now. Its the greatest good for the greatest number, survival of the fittest, but worst of all, to these politicians it is all about the ends justifying the means. Nothing must get in the way of the plan, the sky is blue, the sun is shining, we are all happy clappy families. Be afraid, very afraid.
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Andrew,
worry about the noises from Obama about the nuclear issues being discussed, where is Brown at this most important summit, it's actually probably gone well because he wasn't there, what will Brown do with no summits to attend. He will be a broken man.
As for international affairs, worry about what is happening in Kurdistan, and noises from Russia. Russia does stuff whilst the west is distracted, slowly they are re-establishing themselves. As for China, they really must revalue their currency, only all the dollar assets will be devalued so as they hold billions of dollars in their reserves, be afraid, very afraid.
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Andrew,
simple point with regard to Northern Rock. When they were nationalised, and how the labour MPs cheered at that one, then it should hve been nationalised properly. The staff becoming employees of the state, the official secreats act.
Compare to the fact that the government now wants to mutualise it. Whatever that may mean.
As for Brown and his admissions, funny how it is only over the last weeks that he has admitted to it, note that it is only a couple of years since he actually went to the opening of the Lehmann London Office, and heaped praise on them. Also that when the 'bankers' went before the House of Commons Select Committee they had to admit that they actually were not 'bankers' at all. They had no banking qualifications. So when Brown talks about the bankers can we ask him who does he think were the bakers, because many of them were not, are not, and will never be bankers. Got to get our tenses right, what, what.
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Anything coming out of Gordon's mouth is merely engineered for electoral campaign effect, but that's true of any party leader now, so his 'admission' of some responsibility for the recession is not what it appears to be.
It is surprising, especially as he has previously so boldly refuted any suggestion that he had any blame to take, but he should go furher and take blame for continuing to do nothing after the event. I don't think anyone ever expected banks to self-natinalise, or that it would be such a smart and remunerative move, As someone pointed out recently on BBC, it'll be a long time until some of our major banks pay Corporation Tax with the losses they've posted, so they're getting their cake, eating it and not paying tax on it either.
The fact that all banks now hold the unwritten financial guarantee of the government (that's the best sort to have), guaranteed finance, oddles of cheap money and tax waiver, I find it difficult to understand how anyone can earn a bonus. You could employ a block of wood as Chairman and it would make money hand over fist in the current banker friendly environment.
Gordon can make accusations about the Tories planning cuts to public services from a position of knowledge because I have no doubt he knows he will be having to do the same. The differences between the two parties are not that great, but one difference is that Gordon has been setting up gloriously expensive spending strategies beforehand. I only hope people don't foget the ridiculous unaffordable pledges Gordon has made once he starts cuts, supposing the unlikely event that he gats re-elected. I'm hoping he does, purely because Gordon has been profligate with our money to merely defer th consequences of his policies.
This points out one major character flaw of Gordon, the would be PM. As Chancellor, he had the reputation of being a spendthrift and miserly with our cash, but in leadership he has fallen apart at the seams, wishing to spend his way on to every stage and forum he can occupy. The fact that he admits to errors as Chancellor in his failure to restrain banks takes the gloss off his previous role, but doesn't explain or forgive his latter profligate ways.
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Andrew,
I hope that in the third line from the end of my last comment think that I might have made atyping mistake, 'bakers, whereas I did of course mean 'bankers' however it could be that as the train fast approaches the buffers that 'bakers' might actually be more appropriate on the basis that they may have been cooking the books. Freudian mistakes are weird, are they not.
One problem I have about all the high positions in any organisation. How do you set up a proper system of replacement in the the event of an event. Let us say that all the trust of the people is in Gordon Brown as PM. I know it stretches our imagination but just think it. Now Brown wins the election, and claims that this is his mandate, and we all celebrate.
Now the next day let us say that a serious illness is discovered, I hope that it does not happen, but accept my hypothesis, and he has to resign. So, who will take over, who will run the country. Just as Brown completely failed in his duty to call an election after his coup, this must never happen again. If a political party comes to the country, on the basis of a presidential PM, then there must be an identified vice PM, identified by all the political parties. If an MP dies then there is a bye election, if there is a change of leader, then there must be a general election, unless the hierarchy is defined before the election, in which case that would be acceptable.
We are getting closer to the American system with every passing day.
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Andrew,
I would be very interested in hearing the views of others in respect of the problems within the Roman Catholic church, and paedophiles.
Now we know that there is a problem, it happened during the previous Popes reign but has only now become mainline. So, the priests have been having inappropriate behaviour with boys, taking advantage of them.
Now a senior Vatican official has said that the problem actually is with homosexual priests in the church. Now, what do others think, is this the real unspoken truth, that the church with its policy of celibacy has ended up attracting child molesters, mostly boy children being molested, into the priesthood because it must be an unforeseen consequence that what appears to be the consequence because it would be more difficult for a 'straight' priest to be atracted to the church because they might be more susceptible to modern temptations.
This can be seen by the problems of the church being able to find enough priests to replace those who die, young men are unwilling to join the church, and the other problem is the number of married priests in the Anglican church who want to convert to the catholic church. Maybe these priests are the honest ones who see celibacy for the problems which come from it. This is an issue which needs discussing.
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Andrew,
have just watched the progressive party press conference this morning with you and the other journalists in your pen. Sorry it is just that Mandelson said it was a choice between a conservative and a progressive party. I thought that the questions over shock about a pro Blairite manifesto were awesome.
But my main point is that I was appalled by the comments by Mandelson when asked about the advice which would be given to Brown before the TV debates tomorrow. I paraphrase but not to get involved in the personal insults from Cameron. He then went on to quote from a FT article by Clark who he then said that Clark was sneering at saving jobs, and that Mandelson was some sort of Bourbon king spreading money from his coach as he passed by, and then went on about Cameron and his long toffee nose. Please is this what it has come to, I think that it says more about Mandleson than anything else, I get more depressed with every passing day, Balls and Mandelson, is this who will be running my country.
I am more convinced with every passing day that I cannot vote for any of these people, so it is NOTA for me. People die for the vote, and this is what it has come to, none of the above. How sad, how so terribly sad. It will not be a hung parliament, it will not be a balanced parliament, but it will be a government of national unity. This is what our soldiers are fighting and dying for, and it is shameful. Andrew, what can we actually do, I am abandoning all hope, as for getting involved, I used to be a school governor, I used to be on clinical governance, I used to be on the Community Health Council, but no power, but influence, now that is a different story.
May I ask people to look up the Invergordon Mutiny, my uncle was one of the ring leaders, and shows what will happen when the cuts start to bite. Well the dogs will turn, when pushed people start to fight back, and this is not a threat, but there are dark days ahead, very dark indeed, no sunshine on the horizon, not from any of these political parties, they don't give me the answers to the questions.
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Good morning each & Andrew.
#165 Catch22
You say it all with these few words...
"my country"
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Andrew,
surely one of the problems with all this talk of fairness, is that it requires something which is totally lacking from the narrative. Namely, to be fair there needs to be a morality, if somebody pays the minimum wage to an employee, but has a salary of £100,000 then that is not about being fair. It is about the employer lacking morals, it is not unfair, it is immoral. Well that is what I think. But can we learn our morality, or is it inherent, where do our morals come from, so no maor talk of fairness, let's have morality, not fairness. Probably not politically correct though.
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#166
Is there something wrong about making reference to 'my country' it is my country, same as it is your country, or our country. I actually don't want it to be anybodys country, I actually want our world, or our planet, it is the planet of all human kind, and there should be no borders, none at all. I believe in one world, no borders, no ownership of people, or places, or actually anything. But most of all a world without money, because as I have said before and I will keep repeating it 'money makes pimps and whores of us all'. However, most of all I really want to see an end to religions, now that would make the world a happier place. Morals yes, religions no.
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#168
I do beg your pardon. "Less is more", is perhaps not all that it is cracked-up to be. Nevertheless mine were words of agreement and encouragement.
No catch either nor disagreement with all that you say. I put Democracy before economy every time. People before prophet/profit.
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Andrew,
Any comment on the "exalted, corrupt free and with absolutely no vested interests in carbon trading" Lord Oxburgh's rushed inquiry that exonerates the climategate team at the University of East Anglia? Of course the inquiry panel was comprised of academia and could not possibly be polluted with investigtive journlists.
Did this panel ask for your comments in any shape or form? The whole thing smacks of a cover up and whitewash. Pretty nauseating really.
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168 Catch22
Your ideals are commendable and all truly moral people would agree but unfortunately, as is the case in every painting, so it is with creation.
There is always a little flaw, a mistake if you like.
Where there is good there is evil. I too, long for this world. But this surely is what religion was/is supposed to be, whatever flavour you adhere to. Yet religion/beliefs cause the most wars.
My answer is - nothing is perfect and never can be. We have to make the best of a bad world.
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170 ExcellentCatBlogger
Whilst the points you raise re inerested parties are valid, I am not so sure the report is as all exonerating as it looks at first sight.
Whilst the report finds no dishonesty or delberate deception it is highly critical of the methodology. Reading between the lines the report says that the data was iffy due to variables across the world and that the UEA bods didnt really know how to produce valid statistics from such data. They also need de to involve others to get a balanced view. Plus all the caveats about the known flaws in their work somehow got lost along the way.
Summed up in my words as: An insular group of unworldy boffins did their best with a difficult subject that they really hadnt the expertise to handle properly.
In short damned with faint praise.
That such poorly produced work should have been one of the catalysts for the Climate Change bandwagon that is now rolling is very galling.
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Andrew,
listened to Brown being inetrviewed on ITV. Now near the end he was asked what advice his late father might give him about the election, and debates. The answer, 'tell the truth' please, has the man no shame. As for Ed Balls and Alex Ferguson, I hope that the inetrviwews they gave, and the comments which they made are replayed to them every night before they go to sleep.
You see the problem is that my very close family member told the truth, and what did this government do, they slapped a High Court injunction on him, silencing him. I am angry, very angry with these pliticians, but at least I am alive, there are many who are not alive as a direct result of these people.
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My own view is that we are now in the thrall of a new generation of robber barons, which may sound like the same old same old, but it's impossible to interpret the easy manner in which another member of the establishment has so casually accepted the flawed work of dubious scientists who will never manage to achieve acceptance in the serious scientific world again.
It's embarrassing more than anything and a tragedy for UK science in particular. What ever happened to Al Gore and Dr Pachauri and the chap from East Anglia ? Clearly the messenger is expendable, and the message must be saved at all costs, but we are now being asked to accept 'the Hockey Stick graph' which has achieved the same status as Piltdown Man in the ranks of scientific buffoonery.
AGW is just another money pit Gordon, and Cameron, want to chuck our money down at the expense of our economy, industry and public services. Gordon's record of turning anything in to a success is non-existent and AGW's chances appear dependent on the amount of money we can afford to throw at other countries to bribe them to nod their heads. In that case it's all going to fall flat on its face.
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#165
I don't know why people bother with newspaers after reading the comments on your blog Andrew. Take my comments, they would seem to strike a chord with the Daily Mail, who have picked it up in their editions, you are very influential, as are your commenteers.
The main point though is with reference to the hospital which Brown visited in Manchester. What struck me that they had been bailed out the extent that they had about £6 million on deposit with Icelandic banks, and that the government had replaced the lost money, with the intention of getting the money back eventually. Now trust me, what on earth was an NHS hospital doing placing such a sum of money on deposit with an Icelandic bank. I am sorry but Brown really just does not get it. All the people who have been bailed out should not have been, they should have been taught a lesson which they would never forget, only now everybody will think that they make a bad decision and they will somehow be bailed out, unbelievable. And this is a progressive party, yeah right whatever.
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#171
"...yet religion/beliefs cause the most wars."
It'a a popular saying, but is it really true?
WW1 and WW2 - both quite large - did not appear to be driven by religious differences. The wars between England and various European countries pre-WW1 might have had elements of Catholic/Protestant disagreements, but were largely related to territory and wealth. The wars/invasions by Romans, Vikings, Angles, Saxons, etc were not prompted by religion, but by conquest. The Boer and Zulu wars were not religion orientated - again they were territory and conquest related. The American Civil War was mainly about slavery. And obviously the Cold War was nothing to do with religion (although there was religious suppression in the USSR).
Of course there were some religious wars, such as the Crusades, and religious differences caused other wars such as in Bosnia.
But it's just an easy way out to blame religion for 'most wars'. Religions such as Christianity preach 'turning the other cheek'. If these guidelines are not followed, it's the fault of human nature rather than religion.
In the few examples of non-religious countries or empires in recent times, it would be difficult to argue that their outlook and philosophy involved peace and goodwill at any price.
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Re :176
You are only partially right mike-jay. In fact the idea of the "just war" is a christian concept or more accurately a Roman construct dating back to Cicero at least and taken up by the Roman Catholic Church
Article 2265 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church says
Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.
On that basis many of the wars you cite are and have been fought and justified with this theory. Therefore it is right to say that religion does in deed cause wars. I distinguish here between organised relgion and a belief in God.
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#173
There is a theme beginning to come over with regard to Brown and what his father would have told him, and I paraphrase 'tell the truth son'.
Now then we are led to believe that Brown having saved the world, now wants people not to link him with the late lamented Teddy Kennedy, but Goerge Washington, who never told a lie!
Now the point is that if Brown tells the truth, then he expects everybody else to tell the truth, and there he thinks that he should believe them. The bankers, they didn't tell the truth, because they failed, Tony Blair, didn't tell the truth because of the reasons for the war in Iraq. Blair has eventually told the truth, but a bit too late for my liking.
You see Brown tells the truth, but others don't. He trusts people, to be just like him. The trouble is that it is not Browns looks, or persona, to me he is a man who does not tell the truth, despite what he might have learnt as a child whilst sat on his fathers knee. As for Brown and his middle class, I am reminded not of Shakespeare, but of Dickens, there are some wonderful characters in 'Hard Times' and I would ask Brown to describe a horse.
As for evidence, just look at the correction which Brown had to send to Chilcot. I sincerely think that no matter how the election turns out, there are quite a lot of people who will be recalled to give more of their 'evidence' to Chilcot.
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Andrew,
there is a problem which many of you might not yet be aware of and that is reports in The Lancet of a dramatic fall in the number of deaths of women during childbirth. Bearing in mind the cause which Sarah and Gordon Brown are heavily involved in then it is brilliant news that their involvement in the cause is having such rapid results.
Mind you as usual there is a problem. I have said in the past how influential I can be, driving the agenda, politicians acting so quickly on my comments, seeing into the future and anticipating the crash, that sort of thing but in respect of these deaths there is a dark side.
It is being said, that some advocates for women’s health tried to pressure The Lancet into delaying publication of the new findings, fearing that good news would detract from the urgency of their cause.
Now that is the sinister side, who has been trying to get The Lancet to delay publication? I think that this one has legs as well, well I think it will.
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#177
That could be why Blair did not convert to the Roman Catholic church until after he left office. I think that after his testimony to Chilcot Blair could not possibly meet the criteria, the war in Iraq was not a just war, not for the reasons given about Weapons of Mass Destruction, nor regime change which was the subsequent reason.
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Morning C2! Now you said you were going on holiday through this election - perhaps in a town near me - but instead I'm going on holiday for a month! And I've got extra happy tabs from the Doc, which explains why I'm so happy compared to everyone else. It's not just the elections you know!
It seems Lab voters are now voting LD to keep the Cons out, a reverse of the last 2 or 3 elections. What will happen?
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Another thing I,ve noticed is, if you (one) has a couple of days off from news etc and suddenly tune in again a lot of these politicians sound entirely mad! They're just waffling nonsense. Not all, but the test now is: is it a human being talking about something interesting, or, has it come from another planet?
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177 sA - you're off with the fairies, mate.
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169 TA - I equate people with profit and prophet.
As do ants and tigers.
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171 Jb - Nothing is perfect. Well is it? perhaps you're right. The perfect zero. Is infinity perfect?
Perfect Competition exists on the stock exchange floor.
Ants are perfect. Insects are perfect.
If I was perfect would I be able to admit it? What about Jesus, everybody else said he was perfect, he himself merely claimed to be the son of God.
Philosphy and madness are not the same thing.
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#181
Government of National Unity, that is why there is such a long break between the election and parliament coming back, and giving Sarah time to move the furniture out of Number 10. Can't have the Brown family being embarrassed or looking anything less than serene. I hope that he has organised the alternative accommodation for when he loses his 'home'.
Just to point out that the Stock Exchange floor no longer exists, it went with the 'Big Bang'. Ah. those heady days when men could be trusted, that their word was their bond, and deals were done on a handshake.
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186 C2 Perhaps if the Browns do have to move, they will go in the middle of the night when nobody can see them.
What's happened to the SE floor? What have I missed - is it a joke? They've got a floor in NY, I don't see why we shouldn't have one.
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#187
no there is no Stock Exchange floor like what they had in the good old days. Its not a joke, it is no more, it has persihed, bit like democracy in our country, like I used to say when feeding my sons, and they had nothing left, 'all gone'.
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188 Oh God! I can't remember a thing about it. Must be when I had my brain tumour - perished, all gone.
Maybe I'll remember in the morning.
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172 xtunbridge
I stand corrected. But the science of climatology and predicting future trends is inextricably linked with complex mathematical models, with an emphasis on mathematical statistics. That the scientists are found at fault at the first hurdle (organising the raw data) does not exactly bode well goe their arithmetic skills let alone complex algebraic modelling techniques.
I fail to see how according to Lord Oxburgh, the scientists can get a slap on the wrist for data issues and still get the nod to carry on "old boy" as if nothing is untoward. Even now there are comments in news articles indicating that everything would be alright if the e-mails had not been put in the public arens.
The real problem is that phrases such as "statistical methodology" are way over the heads of most people, and in prticular 9 out of 10 journlists will be too lazy to bother with this at all. One thing you can be sure of: raw data will be a lot harder for the public/independent journalists to access in order to offer an alterntive point of view.
The consensus between the political parties on this is scary. But this is nothing new, as the MSM and the 3 main political parties refuse to discuss:
Immigration
European Union Federalist State
Ineffectiveness of world aid projects at the expense of poor UK citizens
amongst other issues and cover ups.
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Andrew,
all the concern about global warming, keeping terror off the streets of Britain. Then a volcano goes off, and guess what, total chaos, flights cancelled, just as 9/11. The politicians have let us down again, they have failed to protect our freedom to fly from? A volcano, going off hundreds of miles away, this is totally unacceptable, they've failed again. Did nobody research this volcano, to see if it was going to erupt, what are the scientists doing, what are they being paid for.
Same as the economists who seem to have written a letter about the effect of something on the economy. Yeah right the same economists who unlike me did not see the crash coming. These probably highly paid individuals. We have to know who pays them, where do they get their money from. Do the depend in a ny way for income from the state. Why now, probably because one of the first actions of a new government will be to investigate the economists, do a job evaluation.
Same with the accountants, the auditors, the consultants, where have they been held up to investigation. There must be an inquiry into why the numbers were so wrong, why no warnings from them. Why did they sign off the accounts. May I suggest that a new government needs to set up a Royal Commission investigating the accountants, the auditors and the consultants to find out what has gone so terribly wrong.
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#177 sa
I think you'd find that the concept of a 'just war', perceived as defence against an aggressor, would continue to apply in a non-religious society, based on 'morality'. It's common sense, not an invention of religion.
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Andrew,
Brown being interviewed on the Today programme:
He said that "the problem we faced was that we had a global financial system that was growing, it's the first globalisation crisis, it's the first crisis of international banking. The international banks let us down".
Excuse me but as some sort of historian then please look at the Great Depression of the late 1920s and early thirties. To say that the American and British banks were not international banks is absolutely pathetic. We had the Clearing Banks, and the Merchant Banks, the Merchant Banks were global to pretend otherwise is seriously in denial.
The problem is that the banks have always been international. The other problem is that the economists look at something called the Phillips Curve, and all it did was to look at wages, and inflation, and if you concentrate on the Phillips Curve then you will end up in serious trouble.
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Andrew,
in his Today interview Brown finished by saying that he 'will be standing for the next five years', now that is not the same as saying that he will serve his country for the next five years. Just as Blair said that he will 'serve a full term' well he did, his term was when he was elected, then resigned from being PM, but then resigned from parliament, so actually he did serve a full term. And as far as I am aware all prospective MPs will be standing for the next five years, but if they are elected, does that mean that they will serve the next five years.
It is Andrew, as you often like to say about Moms and apple pie. Bit like the party slogans I mean who would not say that they want a fair society, so you want an unfair society, it is unbelievable the way the people of our country are being insulted by the politicians. They are so on the way to the buffers, the dead men at the handle, this is going to be such a train crash.
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Andrew,
I have been thinking for some time about Brown and this supposed forst global international crisis. So I have done a bit of research, I went to The Times online digital archive and thought that I would look=up the report on the second ordinary general meeting of the Trans-Oceanic Trust which was held in late November 1929.
Now here are just a few of the comments made to the meeting by the Chairman and I think that they are of great interest, taking into account the very close proximity of the meeting to the actual great crash which was meant to be the cause of the Great Depression:
The problems for the company were listed as follows:
'the dear money period commencing last February'
'the unsettlement of the general election'
'the reaction from the previous years 'speculative boom''
'steady drain of funds to New York'
'recent crisis and consequent depreciation in our own stock markets'
'much more severe crisis in America, with its international repercussions and widespread forced liquidation'
Now it does go on and I have abbreviated it, but I think that your readers will get the gist of where I am coming from. For Brown to say,and I paraphrase that somehow this latest bust was somehow 'new' then I have to say that as an academic, or lecturer, which he professes as being in his past, then I would not like to be one of his students, because if he seriously has such a bad memory, or himself had such bad tutors, then it confirms exactly what I have thought for some time. This is a repeat of the Great Depression and note how quickly the chairman identified the causes of the problem.
The trouble is that with all the Quantitative Easing, all the cheap money for the banks, the idea that a government can beat the market, as will be found after the general election, then there will be a government of National Unity. It won't be called that, but there will be, trust me, here come the buffers.
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#193
to pretend that banks were not global in the 1920s and 1930s is highly misleading. Look at the history of the old Midland Bank, a state bank by any other name, with their overseas operations. Look at Samuel Montagu a merchant bank, and who was the chancellor during the Great War, look it up for yourself. Tell me that there were no international banks, look at the Venetian banks from centuries ago, the Lombards, I mean there is eevn Lombard street in the City.
At some time Bills of Exchange were new, forward trading was new, foreign exchange was new, arbitrage trading was new, they were regulated, and for Brown to insult people by this being the first global financial crisis, unbelievable if he is allowed to get away with this absolute nonsense. This is all about trust, people who you deal with must be trusted, my word is my bond.
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Tonight's debate by the big three will be an anti-climax after all the hype that's been drummed up by the media. It will contribute nothing in political terms - we've heard them all before, many times. We know what they claim to stand for and what they're likely to say.
All that we can expect from the debate is an indication of how each leader copes with this kind of limelight. Who will sweat like Nixon? Who will stammer and lose track of his intended responses? Who will be the most accomplished actor?
When it's all over, will viewers lean towards the underdog - the one who looked the most uncomfortable, and will supreme confidence and perfect presentation antagonise them?
Don't expect much in the way of policy enlightenment or surprising revelations.
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#197
I think what will be most interesting is the reaction on places like Andrews blog. These pages will be read, and analysed, because trust me, they are interested in how we react. I think that there is an honesty about Andrews blog unmatched anywhere. Why because we try to tell it exactly as it is. It is not only about Andrew, it is about the moderators, it is about the media people who read this, but it seriously is our comments which will be analyzed.
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191 Catch22
Surely Brown etc should have seen this coming. Iceland has got its own back for being treated by Brown as a terrorist state when the banking crisis surfaced. Using terroist laws against Iceland was always wrong who can blame them for having a volcano erupt. Natural retaliation ?
On a more serious note what on earth would happen to global flights if we have a Krakatoa type eruption ? No flights for months and crop failures through lack of sunlight ?
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Andrew - just a note to say how disappointed I was to watch you monster the Leader of LPUK yesterday and rubbish its small membership base?
As a result, he's deleted his entire blog. I was a regular reader and joined up on the strength of his argument and willingness to be so forthright. Yes at times it was totally OTT, but that was a fundamental point about freedom rather than being sat on.
This has shades of NightJack all over it.
Why did you decide to do this rather than ask about their policies [which I understand was the basis of the invitation?]
I've been a great supporter of you over the years and always watch the DP/StraightTalk/This Week but you went down in my estimations by using your power to completely squash a micro politico.
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I agree with the comments at #200. Mr Neil has a distinct lack of respect for certain people and parties which he does not apply to others. All parties have been doing unacceptable blogging so why did you only mention it in the LPUK interview? I would say it looked like bullying. Are you a bully Mr Neil?
It is pretty obvious from his behaviour, that Mr Neil has a very large ego.
Another example of this was the letter from Cameron which apparently was an invitiation from Neil to join his government, which he dismissed with apparent contempt. This was just a demonstration how important Neil thinks he is, dismissing an invitiation from a potential PM out of hand, otherwise why would he mention the letter at all.
Then there is his calling Vince Cable, "The Cable". Very cheeky for a humble BBC presenter. Neil's contempt for the viewers is almost on a parallel with Johnathon Ross's I would suggest.
Neil should remember his place. Yes, take the politicians to task but learn to keep your ego under control.
Mr Neil should heed the words of a certain Mr Robert Burn's when he wrote, "...to see ourselves as others see us...".
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Andrew,
very interesting comments on the Today programme this morning with reagrd to Bagram Prison. He refers to the Hutton statement to the Commons, which was in February last year. Davis tries to deal with the detainees, I can only hope that the MoD do not place an injunction on him in the same way that they got a High Court judge to place an injunction on my very close family member, preventing him from speaking in public.
In the meantime a female soldier in the British army becomes entitled to a massive payout because of discrimination and something to do with the care of her child, and British soldiers receive compensation for serious injuries, whilst a young man who forced the government to come clean on extra-ordinary rendition and enhanced interrogation techniques has to leave the army with an honourable discharge. At least one general makes money out of writing his memoirs, and confirming that he sought his own legal advice before accepting orders, and the whistle blower as usual, loses out, so much for freedom in this once great country.
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The volcanic ash that has closed UK's airports according to the UK Health Protection Agency poses little health to us in the UK. However, what goes up must also come down at some point. This will be dependent on wind direction, speed of the wind and local weather: in particular precipitation (rain).
Over the long term ash can boost land fertility adding many nutrients to the soil. But in the short term it may be deadly to insect life, animals and crops. It is worrying that the wind direction so far means a route over continental Europe, as opposed to heading towards the Atlantic Ocean where "ash rain" may disperse more easily.
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Isn't is it just a little strange that to keep terrorist outrages off the street of the UK we send our soldiers to kill and be killed in some far away land, and to be maimed and spend the rest of their lives trying to come to terms with what can never be repaired, whether it be their bodies or their hopes. Frankly I don't care whether or not they do it willingly, as much as the fact that African children scour toxic rubbish dumps to eke out a living is no excuse for that either, and rich oil countries like Nigeria have no excuse for allowing such obscenities.
When it comes to saving the planet from forthcoming oblivion we should be similarly risking life and limb to ward off such a peril, if any of it's true. Forget the third Heathrow runway, shutdown the whole airport, and remove petrol driven cars from the roads.
I think Global Warming has had its day now that there is a growing scientific consensus that we are actually entering a period of Global Cooling, which is becoming apparent and will be accelerated by the recent volcanic eruption. When politicians gather in fun filled pleasure paradises to discuss world catastrophe you know it's a joke, otherwise they'd be holed up in an underground bunker in Siberia.
The UEA CRU ? They'll have their own little table, removed from scientists with credibility, shared by Al Gore and Dr Pachauri (where did he go ?).
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#203
If there are any people with a memory then just remember the effect that the explosion at Chernobyl has had in Wales. The sheep are stll being slaughtered, and not being sold for human consumption, because there is a problem with the grass which they eat.
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Andrew,
I must admit that I heard this little gem on the BBC but I think that in the light of the current economic crisis it requires spreading further:
To the Icelandic banks we told you to send cASH...well I think its funny...especially in these depressing times...
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Is this Iceland taking revenge for Brown using terrorist legislation to get its money back and for all the insults that, Jim Murphy, the Scottish Secretary and Gordon Brown have thrown at Iceland (and are still doing) just to get at the SNP.
As they are both "believers", might this be divine retribution?
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Andrew,
the sun in Exeter is beginning to set, is the setting sun a metaphor for the end of the game as we know it in political terms.
There are three party leaders having a debate tonight. Now we know that the audience have been vetted, and that there are seventy six 'rules' so is there are 'rule' that says that nobody should throw their shoe at any of the candidates! Whatever did happen to that unfortunate man, what will they do if somebody dares to clap, or cheer, or make any sound at all. This is a wonderful oppoirtunity for the people to stand up, if there is any backbone left in this country then it is the chance of this vetted audience to show that there is life after the wars, the scandals over expenses, the coup by Brown. This is the time, its time to unleash the equivalent of the dogs of war on these men, they have failed, the whole system of political parties has failed.
I have said before and I take this opportunity to say that it is time for a Government of National Unity (GONU), that it is also time for NOTA, the None Of The Above (NOTA) vote. I will never vote for any of these people, not even the so called Independents, or the smaller political parties, they are not the alternative, it is GONU, and NOTA.
People have fought and died for the right to vote, in all generations, and across the continents, but I am sorry to say there is the stench of the rotten boroughs, we can no longer throw rotten tomatoes at these people, we cannot put them in the stocks, but we can give them a lesson they will never forget. This is the time, it is the time for NOTA, and for those 'votes' to be recorded, do not destroy your paper in the old way, scrawl across your paper, NOTA, they will get the message. Then a Government of National Unity, there really is no alternative, other than something which nobody wants to see. I am not apathetic, I am angry. This is about the doors which are closed to us, not the open doors.
This the the sunset election, because I can tell you now the sunsetting over Exeter is absolutely fantastic.
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So the first "Leaders" (and I use the word advisedly as I wouldnt trust any of them to lead my dog around the park never mind lead the country) is over.
90 minutes talking about England, English Education, English Health Service etc etc
And the three of them managed to get through it without saying England once.
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The leaders debate - I loved it, I was in 7th heaven.
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#209
You are of course absolutely right. However, I thought it most interesting that Brown would refer to Clegg as Nick, but refer to Cameron as the conservatives. I think that the supporters of both the main paries are regretting inviting the Nick Clegg to the party, and it is for this reason. Clegg identifies his party as, and I sort of paraphrase, being different to the other two, that there is a newness about the party which he leads. Now excuse me but the liberals, as Brown so deliciously likes to call them in the Commons, have been around for an awful long time. They were the party which led this country into the worst global terror this country has ever known, namely World War I, that is where the liberals took us.
Brown is also forgetting the history of his own party. It was Ramsay McDonald who at first went into a coalition with the liberals after the 1928 election. The liberals after a couple of years could then no longer be in that coalition and they ended up with McDonald as a traitor to the cause and continuing to be PM, and the liberals going in with the Tories in a National Government, with a cabinet where most of labour were excluded, I think four Tories, four Liberals, and two Labour. Yes cabinets were better managed with fewer ministers.
So, I think that before Brown gets into bed with the liberals he had better watch his back, I think that the long term solution is a government of national unity, with the conservatives, and the liberals in the driving seat, with the exclusion of labour. The socialists will then fight amongst themselves trying to find who was to blame for the debacle.
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C2 205 - Are you sure about that? Doesn't seem quite right, the farmer would just get rid of the sheep if that was the case.
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209 sA - I see, like that game on radio 4, CFrued was a panellist, and Paul Merton. I didn't realise they were doing that. I thought you had to judge them like a pannellist on 'Dorothy' or something. I thought GB was the best dancer.
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Andrew,
was it not Woolas who said one of the reasons why we are in Afghanistan is because if we weren't hen there would be more asylum seekers from that region. Well note what has happened in Afghanistan whilst nobody seems to be looking:
'Afghans burned tires and chanted "Death to America" after U.S. troops fired Monday on a civilian bus near Kandahar, killing four people and wounding more than a dozen. Afghanistan's president accused NATO of violating its commitment to safeguard civilian lives.
The attack enraged Afghan officials and the public in Kandahar, the Taliban's birthplace, and dealt a blow to U.S. and NATO efforts to win popular support for a coming offensive to drive the insurgents from the biggest city in the south. NATO expressed regret for the loss of civilian lives and said it was investigating'.
Now tonight there are reports of a bomb in Kabul, killing contractors, or mercenaries as they should be known if you ask me, who are doing the job of the military because the soldiers can no longer do the job, not without the threat which they bring in respect of their treatment of detainees, as was the case with Baha Mousa. Now then the British military are now confined toi barracks, that is why there are no deaths of soldiers to get in the way of Browns electioneering. Every wednesday he would read out the names of the dead, since the election was called, how many dead soldiers!
The trouble is that Brown keeps referring to the equipment which is now on order, only trouble is that much of it will not be delivered until after the occupation. He referred in the TV debate to the Talibhan and how they had changed their tactics. Right yeah, of course if I was Terry Talibhan I would take on the occupation forces head on. The Talibhan have learnt from us, does Brown think that French resistance took on the Germans head to head. No they changed their tactics, with British aid, and committed acts of terror against the occupying force.
We have lost in Afghanistan, why has the policy of training the Afghan police and army only started now, we have been in Afghanistan since 2001, nearly eleven years, and where are we? The trouble with the debate was the quality and content of the questions, I am afraid the whole debate was an abject failure.
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#212
The trouble is that if they just slughtered the sheep and did no more then the farmer would not get any money. They just waste the money to keep the Welsh hill farmers going. I do agree with you, only I would say that it is bizarre, but hey its only public taxpayers money.
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Andrew,
what must be said is that apparently the conservatives are saying that Gordon was a bully, and labour say that the Tories are cry babies. Well so I have heard it said around and about. Ah, how wonderful the grown up political system is. Especially after as I and many others have pointed out the comments made by Mandelson in respect of 'toffee nosed Cameron'.
What I would have said to Brown is that at last we are having the chance to vote in a general election after the coup which overthrew Blair. No mention of the fact that Brown had to correct his evidence to Chilcot.
You would never think that Brown was already PM, that he had never even been elected to the position, he just took it.
We must have more control over the questions, it is as I have said before the questions which need to be asked which are not being asked. They need to be tighter, and very specific. My other views will remain private for the moment but my reaction is that this is not a format which will succeed because I cannot vote for any of these people, none, they are not presidents and until we get a president the whole fiasco is totally irrelevant.
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May I commend all those stalwarts above who managed to "stomach" the mindless debate between the three putative leaders for the full 90 minutes! I got to the 30 minute mark after deciding that the format of the program ws just too weird.
The audience non participation just does not work - it was too surreal. There would have been a vast improvement if the human audience had been replaced with say 6 Daleks from a Dr Who series of yesteryear. The moderator tried to limit the time for each speaker but without a sanction to punish any transgressor for overstepping the limit his role unsurprisingly was rendered pointless. Metaphorically the moderator was trampled in the dust.
The broadcasters should NEVER have caved in with 70 odd separate rules. Today all the broadcasters, pollsters and various other political flotsam "hangers-on" will be hyping up the debate as a great success, but in reality this was a parody compared to the US Presidential debates of yesteryear.
This program might have worked say 30 - 50 yers ago when MPs were honourable and less likely to lie brazenly. With the current lot, firstly they would need to be attached to a lie detector test and secondly if they lied the moderator would need to be equipped with a Taser and be prepared to use it!
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Andrew,
as my partner and I sat on our sofas watching the whole exercise we spoke to each other, and during this conversation we noticed and said to each other, I can't hear what they are saying, they are not listening to each other, and that and I have to say this, Brown was continually interrupting, which I think was against the rules. Now that is fine but I think that the analysts will be looking at what Brown was able to 'get away with' the questions were meant to come from the audience, not Brown questioning Cameron.
The problem was also that they all spoke too fast, that is a fault because they really don't want us to listen to the answers, and one in particular, as an answer was being given, grinned like a cheshire cat and looked far from evn ministerial.
It was a total fiasco, and actually a sad day for politics, because if you think about it, it is absolutely nothing to do with the person, it is the position, it is the job, the institution itself. Let us say that one of the three does become PM, and then dies the very next second, then what happens, we apparently voted for one of them, only we don't, we vote for our MP.
In the old days I used to get letters addressed to me personally at the bank, the trouble is that the letters referred to 'stuff' which I had been doing previously, I was not Mr xxxxxx, I was the Manager, and it might be rude to call me, The Manager, but I was the manager of a department, and it was to the department that the letter should be sent.
I really do think that what was interesting was when Brown went into the audience to shake hands, shame he ignored the police man at Number 10, when Obama shook his hand and Brown withdrew his. He and his advisers do read your comments don't you know Andrew. The only trouble is that as Brown shakes hands I still have that awful vision where Brown was seen sitting behind Balir, and picking his nose and eating it, which is why it is interesting that Mandelson refers to 'toffee nose Cameron' I suppose it would be childish to have toffee nosed Cameron, against snotty Brown, what on earth can I say about Clegg, Mr clean, ah now I remember what about his admission as to how many liasons he had before marriage.
There was a problem, I want a fully elected second chamber, what people did not notice is that the reforms which Brown wants he refers to as an accountable second chamber. Now what does this mean I think is that the PM can appoint individuals to the second chamber, and that the person who places them in the second chamber is accountable, not the person who is actually placed there, they cannot be sacked. Just as Mandelson is a minister but is an unelected Lord, so he is accountable to the PM, who can sack him from the cabinet, but Mandelson cannot be sacked from the Lords. So Mandelson is accountable, but not to the electorate, there is still not a fully elected second chamber.
Why has labour ignored its majority, which it has had for thirteen years, it really could have reformed the Lords, but to say they will come to the country with a proposal in a referendum, before we have the referendum we must have the question, what will the question be, ah, questions, questions, questions. Where are the buffers, cause this train is heading for a mega crash.
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Andrew,
surely the media should be giving more attention to the Baha Mousa Inquiry, and now we have the Buncfield case starting. These are important, whereas the Today programme gives coverage to a parade of military personnel returning from Afghanistan. Another day with no deaths from the front. This is getting very strange, mind you this is what the people employed at the Ministry of Defence are paid for, news from the front, good news only allowed. Brave and courageous soldiers.
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Andrew,
is there not a problem with government. There is absolute total chaos over the volcano, flights cancelled. So where is any announcement from Brown and Cameron, and Clegg. What do they have to say about this event. What can they do for the travelling public, nothing. So, what is the point, does anybody think that if any of these public were in charge, what would they be doing that they are not doing now.
In the wonderful words of a previous leader, it is events dear boy, and with nature there is no control, nature has a wonderful way of completely neutralising the politicians. What would Brown be doing now, is he still not in Number 10, only this is worse than the American system of months between an election, and taking power. Whilst we are in this situation who actually is in power, who is running the country, and if it is nobody then shouldn't somebody be in charge, it shows the total irrelevance of the leaders of all the political parties.
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Andrew,
surely one of the problems with the cancellation of the flights is the problems over insurance and non payment of claims. Now apparently this is being put down to 'an act of God' in respect of the volcano eruption. Well sorry but I live in a secular society and I do not believe in God, so if I was caught up in all this and I was PM, I would tell the insurance companies that they must meet all the claims in respect this natural event. There is no 'act of God' it is a cop out, the prospective PMs must say that the insurance companies must meet their obligations, because how can an act be down to a noin existant entity.
Does anybody really think that God caused the volcano to erupt, I mean bizarre.
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Less than 12 hours ago the Health Protection Agency declared that there was no risk to UK citizens from the volcanic ash cloud. Now asthmatics are encouraged to stay indoors. So far so good.
Yet when I browse the weather sites looking for atmospheric abnormalities or adverse indicators for pollen counts etc the most extreme rating is moderate, which in any language translates as OK go about your business normally. Where are the hard scientific facts?
Surely the Met Office and other orgnisations would be galvnised into action by releasing weather balloons to measure air quality at different altitudes? I realise that the political leadership is absent, but why has COBRa not been activated?
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Clegg did a slick presentational job last night, offering change from the old two parties - although Brown blatantly set out to show that he and Clegg were of the same mind on many matters. But what Clegg (or the others) didn't reveal clearly to the audience and viewers were the core Lib-Dem policies.
1. The avowed intention to hand over the UK lock, stock, barrel, currency, monarchy and self-determination to the EU. The Lib-Dems were the first off the mark in trying to head off the referendum on the Lisbon Treaty by immediately throwing in the red herring of an 'in or out' referendum. They were terrified of the people having their say.
2. An open door immigration policy. The superficial ploy of directing an unlimited number of new immigrants to specified regions is full of holes and does nothing to redistribute or otherwise deal with the existing population and the associated social problems. For a start we could expect thousands of bogus companies springing up, claiming they needed immigrant workers - a back door scam similar to the bogus colleges that have recently been exposed.
3. A short-sighted, contemptuous policy on defence, very close to pacifism. Casual cancellations of projects such as the Eurofighter and Trident totally disregard the long term effects on employment, innovation, and trickle-down technology to other industries. Aerospace projects in particular are by their nature at the cutting edge of new materials, techniques, design, testing and so on. Liberal policy would choke off future benefits to the ultimate detriment of everyone.
The Lib-Dems are certainly different from the other two parties - they've never had to put their policies to the test and they've never honestly confronted the British people with their core beliefs, above.
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C2 221 It's definately a man-made volcano eruption, as with all things to do with climate change.
I'll have to double check those sheep, still can't believe it.
I'm definately going on holiday today. Maybe in a town near you...
Why does Nick Clegg take issue with the Con immigration cap, and mention Dr's etc outside the EU who are welcome, but not with Lab barring workers outside the EU?
And! If they send everyone to university you would expect some of them to go abroad to work. But it's all comparative advantage anyway, that's how it's supposed to work.
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mike @ 223
Yes indeed.
(1) European integration.
(2) Welcoming immigration policy.
(3) Scale back of the military.
Three of the best from the Lib Dems. Don't like that direction of migrants to certain places though; illiberal. Encouragement Yes, Direction No.
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Re 165 Catch 22 have so much agreed with your posts, now find you held a managerial position in a bank. Explains much, my late husband was also in such a position and I believe he would have echoed the bulk of your views. He predicted this horrible mess, saw Campbell, Balls, Milliband and, lurking in the shadows, Mandelson as the true powers behind actor Blair and sulky Brown. He couldn't believe Brown would become chancellor and I have wondered just what he would have thought of the sale of gold reserves or the treatment of working people,the workshy and pensioners, since he was shovelled into his present post - but he didn't survive appalling treatment at the hands of the NHS! I also suffered and am disabled as the result of what was called a 'routine operation'.
Incidently the same op. as my mother had over 30 yrs ago at the age of 84 and survived without problems until the age of 95 - so much for Gordons boasts!
Even his sceptical view of this last 'socialist' government could not have forseen the appaling handling of just about every aspect of their rule. We are so near to becoming a mere satellite, subservient nation on the edge of europe, that it beggars belief and I am dreadfully worried about the future which faces our grandchildren. I think Gordon truly believes he IS the 'great leader' and is therefore dangerous because he thinks he is 'telling the truth'!
As for last night's display - surely Gordy was advised not to have been placed (as in the BBC poster ) in the middle - probably by his backing group as he is with everything else, B,M,M and C Rule after all.
The only notable remark being his "I agree with Nick" and even that should have been "I agree with Vic" as that is where all clone Nick's opinions are formed.
Lastly - Andrew at the age of 80 I would not miss your programme for anything - even watch it again on 'iplayer' occasionally - but, oh dear, please don't do another one like last night! Obviously you would have had far more obstructions (shall I say?) than usual but perhaps you could have pleaded mental fatigue instead of presenting such a production. I hope you will soon be back on form.
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214. Catch22
"He referred in the TV debate to the Talibhan and how they had changed their tactics."
Classic Brown.
Blame the enemy for being caught short of equipment.
So then, helicopters were not in demand or thought particularly useful prior to the 'change of tactics'? They are not useful for casevaccing casualties out of contacts, they aren't more mobile and do not provide more tactical manoeuvrability than armoured vehicles and motorised transport? Or was it all the fault of the generals?
But £1000-a-pop chairs at the refurbed MoD, even if purchased at a discount, is acceptable.
And there is the debate around the public spending '£6Bn black hole'... judging by their huge procurement blunders, overspends and costly delays, that hole could be at least half-filled by the MoD within a year.
If the topic didn't involve sacrificing human lives we could laugh about it.
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#225 saga
Your views are as expected, but the point I was making was that these core Lib-Dem policies haven't been openly and honestly put to the electorate.
I hope you get the subtle difference.
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Come polling day, while the competencies of 'leaders' 'who agree with Nick' the most are of note, for practical purposes, with the potential hung Parliament so desired by the politico-media establishment very real to the point of most being engaged in attempting outright influence, as it is still a two horse race practically I will be more interested with whom Nick admits to agreeing, and to what extent.
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Looks as though almost half of the troops in Afghanistan will not be registered to vote.
They have the right to get blown up but not to vote.
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185 Leuctrid
Re your 'perfect zero' and is infinity perfect?
Sorry missed your post. Infinity can't be perfect because there is no end, so it is incomplete, yes?
Also, maybe we are the 'flaw' in the universe? Wishing you happy hols.
It would be funny to think it is retribution that this volcano decided to erupt - Brown asking for his money back and they gave him this instead! There is a problem that will occur with this ash coming down - we don't know how long this eruption will last and what if the wind doesn't change direction for, say a month, that means we will be covered with the stuff. No flights for weeks - maybe this is a good omen, maybe an emergency government with MP's starting to govern for the good of the country because there is a real crisis to deal with.
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I am just catching up on Question Time and I really am very angry. Shami Chakrabati said regarding the Banking crisis - "we were all maxing out on our credit cards and we all have to take some personal responsibility". No, we don't! Some of us don't have them.
I can't honestly undertstand why just because some very irresponsible people in this country spent like there was no tomorrow she should be able to lump us altogether.
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224 Leuctrid
This 'sheep thing' is true - when the Chernobyl cloud came over they did a lot of testing in Wales. In Cornwall they did a survey on blue bells which was carried out after the 'cloud' had gone over presumably because they were affected as well. There was also a programme on the box afterwards about the farmers having to slaughter their sheep instead of selling them.
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227 Blame
Yes, the price is human lives - death and disabilities. If any of them could actually face the consequences of what is happening in Afghanistan and in this country and the way it's being governed, would they be able to do anything anyway. This is why the debate just sounded like the usual guff - electioneering - no ideology or true ability to govern with honesty and integrity.
Big business runs every country - too many hands in the 'pies'. It would take an awfully strong and determined government to turn round what is happening now.
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Re the debate, what was the point of the audience ? They weren't even allowed to clap at the end.
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232. At 1:09pm on 16 Apr 2010, Japanbytes wrote:
I am just catching up on Question Time and I really am very angry
I think you will find that, amongst the politico-media chatteratiat, amongst whom the fragrant Ms. C is a queen bee, 'you', 'we' & 'they' are as flexible and reversible as they are interchangeable according to cause du jour.
Hence, when 'they' feel 'we' need to pay for their interests or of those who support them, 'you' and 'I' will kindly do so without complaint.
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Hope you're not implying I'm predictable, Mike (228).
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Andrew,
one of the criticisms of Cameron last night was I think along the lines of he was too personal, that 'we' wanted to hear about us, not about him. Well I am sorry but how on earth could anybody think what you or anybody else thinks. Nobody can know for sure what I think, so how could they voice any platitudes which they think applies to me, nobody really knows what I think. And what if I don't have the same words to think as anybody else, can I think in a word that I don't know.
I have always had the problem that say you have very cruel parents, and they tell you that the colour of the sea is orange, whenever you see the sea they say that is a beautiful orange, and you believe them, because you trust your parents. However, when you go the sea with some friends they say that the colour is blue, and you argue that it is orange, and persuade them you are right, and then before you know it the whole of the planet now believes that because you argue so well the colour blue is now orange. Shall we have a debate on this contentious issue.
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Andrew,
apparently one of 'the rules' about the debate was that the three of the participants should stay on the stage at the end. We all know who was the first to break that rule, and accordingly, may I suggest that the next deabte will be interesting as to what other rules are broken. The one I want changed much more is the audience, they must be allowed to laugh, to clap, and generally make a noise. Mind you with the vetting going on I suppose all the audience have to sign a contract, and they will be charged with something if they breasch their contract. I can imagine with this lot they might even have an injunction taken out against them.
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Andrew,
I think that it very interesting that the Americans should now be charging Goldman Sachs with fraud. Will this be the first of many repercussions for the financial institutions resulting from the global economic crisis. Is this the tip of an iceberg and will any institutions be turned into ashes before the kaleidoscope settles.
Remember Enron, and what happened after that.
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Jb 231 233
Infinity is a figure of 8, hence the symbol for infinity. It's actually like an oval that is twisted in the middle, like one of those fold up round baskets. It's 3D not 2D. It's infinite because it goes round and round. Easier to understand if someone shows you.
As for the sheep, what I can't believe is that it's still happening now. There are definately sheep being farmed in Wales, I've seen lots, numbers definately increasing and have been for quite a few years.
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It's funny when I read 'tip of the iceberg' (C2 241) I immediately thought of the lettuce, not an iceberg.
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The leaders debate: - the constant 'times up' made it too similar to PMQ's. It's different giving a direct specific response, you may have heard something similar before, but not in the same context and not without editing. GB was cut off a couple of times before finishing answering important questions. And yes, I really was listening. It's like having the news cut off mid-story. Idiots!!!!!
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Ah, EnRon
La la la la la Enron, la la la la la la Enron.
Enron la la la la Enron, Enron la la la la Enron.
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237 Saggy what a surprise to see you on here! I nearly fell off my wheelchair.
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Strange when we hear politicians in party political broadcasts we don’t believe them.
When they say the same things in a pseudo intellectual debate some people start to believe them. What did they say they have not said before.
Are we being conned by the media into thinking these debates are somehow different.
What they are good for is journalist’s egos and expenses.
And TV viewing figures I wonder how much extra ITV took in advertising.
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247 lostvoice
Yes believing politicians in any scenario is a risk but on your advertising point it was also a first for ITV as a prog with no adverts.
Having watched it I was impressed by Clegg's performance.
You know the Scots and Welsh have been kicking up about their exclusion well the next debate is on Sky. I do not have Sky, am I excluded ?
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"Goldman Sachs has been accused of actively misleading its own clients over the sale of a complex $1bn (£650m) parcel of toxic derivatives tied to the downfall of the US housing market."
Why don't we trust politicians you may ask ?
Well Gordon cleaned up the City much like he arranged for the Climategate scandal to be investigated, with the scrupulousness of Basil Fawlty on a bad day. The whimsical reassurance of the likes of Boris Johnson of the value of the City to the country, was another of the deluded ramblings of the people we should be ashamed to have to put in positions of responsibility.
As our leaders so frequently tell us in other situations, there are no victimless frauds, though there are very big winners. Nothing, I repeat nothing that has been instigated by any country has done anything to preclude a repeat of these financial misdealings and the limp response has made it virtually inevitable. Everyone loses when there is a sector of the economy operating outside the scope and observation of the legal authorities.
On the major economic and political problems facing the nation I haven't heard any political party say anything that actually addresses them in any realistic form. As someone said, they all know that the price of telling the truth is to discard themselves from the race.
My hospital is in the news again
"A grandmother lost the will to live after being left in filthy conditions on a hospital ward, her four daughters believe."
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242 Leuctrid
Thanks for that lesson in infinity - I was thinking space and time infinity.
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Andrew,
I do so love metaphors, watched 'Full Metal Jacket' on ITV this evening. It has lost nothing of its power, ts 'lock and load' time again.
Consider what is possibly happening in the political sphere. It was said before the election was called that if you were in a labour seat where there was the possibility that a Tory might win, then the labour voter should vote liberal on the basis that the liberal might then just defeat the Tory.
Now there is the problem that people will vote liberal in droves, and actually push labour into third place. Then it might be that there is no overall majority, but the conservatives have the most votes, and the most seats, therefore surely the liberals must go into a balanced parliament supporting the Tories.
I think that it was last year that I first proposed a government of national unity, and I was mocked. Well I think we can now take it that it will actually happen, who the PM will eventually be is still to be decided. That is why there is now such a long time lag between the election and parliament coming back again. They know the game is up, it really is time to 'lock and load'.
Listening to some of the vox pops on the various news channels is actually very illuminating, watch very carefully who see the people who are being reported on, and notice who is not. It is actually quite brilliant, you can do it yourselves, especially the BBC, but the same applies to other channels.
Oh, just to say that the main character in Full Metal Jacket is a reporter, and isn't it funny how still no soldiers dead in Afghanistan since the election was called, and no reports from the front, weird this. Oh and it is interesting the number of media men and women now employed within the MoD. Can't wait for the dbate on foreign affairs, no doubt we will get the brave and courageous soldiers bit, but there had better not be one dead soldier between now and then because if there is and Brown starts by reading out the name, then anger isn't the word for it.
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Andrew,
as well as the Goldman Sachs charges now being brought please also keep an eye on the charges being brought against a former senior executive of Blackwater. Just to remind people who Blackwater were they supplied 'contracters' to support the military operations in Iraq, and the company is now now as 'Xe'.
What I find interesting is the number of lobbyists now working for some of these companies. I sometimes wonder what these people do for a living, surely not read your blog and get the comments taken off if they feel that they get a little bit too close to the truth.
You see I have a very close family member who has an injunction against him, yet all the time the truth of what he said before the injunction becomes official, extra-ordinary rendition, and enhanced interrogation techniques, and the Americans being trigger happy, but worst of all not being willing to fight on behalf of American Foreign Policy. That's why I can't wait for the Foreign Affairs debate next week.
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250 Jb It's the same thing. Time is the 4th dimension bbut graphs already have time incorporated in them, sort of, if you think about it.
Infinity starts at the 0,0 point on the graph then moves up, at which point nobody draws it any more beacause it's so HUGE Massive, out into space, then it bends BACK into the neg through 0 back round back to 0.
That is a figure of 8. But you can only draw the bits near zero because the rest is too big. BIG. Bigger than you can imagine.
It starts at 0 and ends at 0. Except for the fact that it starts at 0.
'I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end' etc.
So that's religion and maths for today, and the people who worked these things out were not on drugs. You can even do an exam in it.
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252 C2 We've heard of this person you're talking about, (I think).
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Regarding scrutiny of Lib/Dems. As I am just a voter with no academic qualifications I would like someone to explain to me why on the program "The Great Offices of State - The Treasury", which was made before the general election was announced, did Alistair Darling discuss the Global Crisis and say "if they saw it coming why didn't someone tell me". Surely if the Global crisis was going to effect us all then St. Vince should have got his message out loud and clear. I watch the live debates on the Parliament channel, I have never heard St. Vince stand up in the commons and tell anyone that there was a very serious danger awaiting us all regarding the bubble bursting.
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#238
I am now not at all surprised that mine has been pulled. It is really only saying exactly what some reports are now aluding to. Effectively, let me say that if there are grounds for charging Goldman Sachs with fraud, then who else.
It would appear from the Today programme that our own RBS has lost millions over their 'investment' in the sub prime mortgages. Now Barclays pulled out of the bargaining over the purchase of ABN, which was eventually purchased by RBS, and it was the purchase of ABN which contributed to the failure of RBS, which ended up in our own hands, because it was ABN which had bought the mortgages, which are the subject of the accusations of fraud.
So what has the government been doing. We effectively own the bank, RBS, surely the forensic accountants have been pouring over the books and if the Americans can find enough evidence to bring charges then what have our people been doing.
We know that at least one of our senior politicians had an acoount with the failed Bank, Northern Rock, and that most of the mortgages with Northern Rock. Maybe we can also say that most of the voters who were effected by the failure of the Northern Rock were in the labour heartlands. Is it any surprise that labour acted in the way they did over the failure of Northern Rock.
Surely, there must a formal inquiry into the banking crisis, and that if necessary charges should be brought.
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#254
Is the situation with regard a certain St Vincent the same with my close family member, only slightly different. The difference is that my close family member actually shouted and spoke in public before the politicians understood what was being done in our name, and effectively forced the government to come clean. Now he was never able to publicly stand up in the commons and tell anyone there was a problem, but ways were found.
All you have to do is to look on Hansard in February of last year and read his statement to the House in late February of last year confirming that what my close family member had been saying had grounds for investigation. And the investigations have shown he was correct in his accusations, and that his honourable discharge was a solution to a very difficult problem.
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Wow, a post on the 17th to a thread on a topic started on the 9th. And they say a week is a long time in politics. Good job the mods here are not too literal on the 'off topic' clause.
Seeking information from those better informed and willing to educate objectively (or any reporters/commentators form the BBC), as I know matters of policy and fact are so last week in politics for those in the MSM who seem easily excited, but I read yesterday that: ”The Liberal Democrat Leader has promised to repeal the controversial Digital Economy Act should his party be involved in the next government.’
Now, as a topic dear to my heart (if but one of many), that is a matter of interest to me. One I might ask his PPC about if she knocks on my door, not that anything the poor woman thinks is apparently meant to matter to me as a local voter any more, now a TV show about 3 blokes has 'blown the doors off the election' (as least as the WUVI brigade are concerned)... hence the polls that track what people think they have been told.
Anyway, as I presume that, for this promise to be honoured, whomsoever he is 'involved with' would need to agree.
If so, who that might be? I still rather feel that in my marginal, if a vote for Mr. Clegg gets us Mr. Brown back, that might still have an impact.
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Andrew,
I thought that there was fascinating piece that was run by the Today programme this morning with politicians giving their views.
Now as usual I have a problem and it is this. It was around October 2008 that I made reference to a certain French diplomatic cable which was leaked to a French newspaper and it quotes the British Ambassador in Afghanistan a spredicting that the NATO led military campaign against the Taliban will fail. The best solution for the country, the Ambassador said, would be installing an 'acceptable dictator' according the the newspaper.
Now then dear readers understand how many soldiers have died, and been injured during the period since September 2008, when this cable was sent, and until the election was called. This is why I am angry. I have said previously about Iraq that we were the problem and never the solution. The Ambassador says in the cable:
'the presence of the coalition, in particular its military presence, is part of the problem, not part of its solution. Foreign forces are the lifeline of a regime that would rapidly collapse without them. As such, they slow down and complicate a possible emergence from the crisis'
Within 5 to 10 years, the only realistic way to unite Afghanistan would be for it to be governed by an acceptable dictator, 'we should think of preparing our public opinion' for such an outcome.
Now then you may well moderate this one, but if it is then you and I know the truth of this posting, because I will even give you the date of the two page cable, it was sent to the Elysee Palace and the French Foreign Ministry on the 2nd September 2008, note 2008. How many of our brave and courageous soldiers have been killed, injured, and traumatised, since this cable was sent.
We are part of the problem in Afghanistan, and will never be the solution, same as Iraq, and all this is for nothing, none of this falsehood about keeping terror off the streets of our country.
I will finish by saying that the reinforcement of military troops, which has happened, has had perverse effects, it has identified us even more strongly as an occupation force and has multiplied the targets for the insurgents. The whole strategy now in Afghanistan is destined to fail. Trust me, all the lives, both military and civilian are an absolute waste, and I think are now criminal. The ends never justify the means.
It is time to withdraw, and this is nothing to do with our brave and courageous soldiers, this is about being time to withdraw, leave it to the Americans who will have to retreat just as they did in Vietnam, with their tails between their legs.
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#257 please note that for 'his', read Hutton, who resigned from the ministerial job he performed so ably. The reference to my close family member was made in the House during the debate on detainees in Iraq.
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Andrew,
we have been in Afghanistan since 2001, since then 281 soldiers have been killed in that country.
Between 2001 and 31st December 2005 we lost a total of five soldiers
Between 1st January 2006 and September 2008 we lost 120
Since September 2008 and 7th Aprol 2010 we have lost 161
Now Brown tells us that the Talibhan changed their tactics, and that is the reason why we have had to change ours. Well I am sorry but it is NATO who changed tactics, we now use Drones, we have effectively invaded Pakistan, we are the occupiers, we are the terrorists, we kill civilians, and it was Harry who went around with the legend on his cap 'we do bad things to bad people'.
If I make mistakes in my quotes, or my typing please understand that it is becaise I am so very angry, in particular please understand that the Americans are not in Afghanistan to bring democracy, nor to keep terror off the streets of our country, nor to capture bin Lade. The Americans are in Afghanistan to project their power by building a gas pipeline, starting in Turkmenistan, cutting through Afghanistan and ending up on the Pakistan coast.
When our soldiers deployed to Afghanistan the role after securing Kabul was to train the Afghan National Guard, and how many years later down the line are we, and as I pointed out how many of their National Army were used when we lost so many of our men in Panthers Claw. It is almost as though the government read my comments, and the comments of others, and then decided that they had better use some more of these incredibly well trained and committed Afghan soldiers to the fight. Yeah, and how many NATO soldiers have been killed by these Afghans in the army, or helping CIA agents.
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261. Catch22
"When our soldiers deployed to Afghanistan the role after securing Kabul was to train the Afghan National Guard, and how many years later down the line are we, and as I pointed out how many of their National Army were used when we lost so many of our men in Panthers Claw."
That musty make the Afghan army the best trained one in the world...
So why are we still there?
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Andrew,
I think that I am going to upset a few people but let us look at the deaths in Afghanistan of three of our brave and courageous soldier on 23rd August 2007. They were killed when a US F15 providing air support dropped a bomb on our boys. It was not only the Talibhan who have had to change tactics.
I am sorry but if anybody can be bothered to investigate then they will learn that Harry now wants to go back to Afghanistan, this time in a Lynx helicopter. Hasn't this young man already done enough harm, of course he must never be allowed back to Afghanistan.
The trouble is that he has already given an interview with regard to Iraq, where, and I paraphrase, if you don't send me, but put me behind a desk then I will resign my commission. So they didn't send him to Iraq, they sent him to Afghanistan, where he could do bad things to bad people. In the meantime if a senior officer says to a soldier that you will sit behind that desk and do a job, then you have to do as you are told, follow orders, that is unless you want to spend some time in Colchester.
By the way let me put something to your readers. We saw Harry calling up an air strike against some men in local garb behind a building, and a bomb being dropped, killing them. Now I have to ask the question do not our Special Forces go around in local garb, doing their secret work, and could there not be the danger that they might one day be mistaken for Talibhan and have a bomb dropped on them.
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Andrew,
just in case some of your readers might not know just to say that further to my earlier posting Turkmenistan ranks fourth in the world to Russia, Iran and the United States in natural gas reserves. Poeple well then understand the strategic importance of Turkmenistan, and why America is so interested in that particular country.
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#262
Exactly the point, who will decide when they are the next best army in the world, after our own boys of course. In the meantime what is to be done about the benign dictator we now support, namely Quisling Karzai. Surely I am not the only one who notices how closely the name Karzai is to one of the alternative names for a toilet namely Karzee. Is somebody seriously taking the michael, or alternative term, of your own choice.
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Andrew,
there are photos now circulating about the bomb which went off in Kandahar City on the 15th April. Just like when Harry was in Afghanistan and there was a news black out can we assume that the same is occuring in Afghanistan whilst our brave and courageous soldiers are confined to barracks. There seems to be a conspiracy of silence, and at the end of the day the newspapers were, I think, shamed by their agreement to the wall of silence over Afghanistan, when Harry was there, yet they were keeping their reports until his safe return home. Is the same happening with regard to the election, the last reported death of a soldier was on the 7th April. This is the longest period without a death of a soldier for a long time.
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Our politicians are cowards.
They put their personal ambitions ahead of rsponsibility to the country.
Greece appears destined to be the first country to lead the way to an economic collapse in a bigger version of the banking crisis. Not only will we pay the price to support them, but we are not immune to going the same way. Financial prudence ? - what financial prudence.
The only remaining justification for our politicians to continue to pursue AGW and carbon trading is hubris, and that's a miserable reason for them to continue destroying the world economy in the process. There are major problems with rising world energy costs and the feeble excuse to attempt to make people accept it in pursuit of some non-existent world crusade is pathetic, and obviously so.
The banking system needs much more than regulation, and that's because banks should be servant of the economy, not self-appointed regulator and despot. It is a long time since our economy was used as the personal piggy bank to cover the monarch's gambling debts, and I'd like our ex-Chancellor to explain how it happened, and why he thinks it's natural for him to allow everything to continue without change.
If Gordon hasn't noticed, you can't insure against catastrophe. Some risks are too great and the consequences and losses cannot be underwritten. The problem being that, like drugs, the riskier some products involved, the more attractive they become and the greater the potential rewards.
The biggest laugh was when it was suggested that bankers deserved to receive their bonuses due to their expertise in the financial scene, though it didn't stop so many of them falling for financial 'flim flam' my granny would see through. Junk security is hardly a new phenomenon and sharp operators, whose operations are more akin to the sale of bric a brac and tat, were employed with all their disreputable tactics. Gordon started off with the assumption that bankers were capable of self-regulation and has allowed the City to flourish like some offshoot of an ex-Russian controlled state.
Politicians aren't bothering with the truth, and the payback is likely to be that the public will vote in the election in the way they vote on X Factor. Good news for Nick Clegg but a disaster for Gordon.
A worrying trend is the number of people who have opted out and aren't a fuctioning part of the community any longer, either as workers or claimants. That is something worth investigating as government and politicians finally do become an irrelevance as those numbers increase.
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I see the BBC managed to pay lip service to the English Democrats.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/8627185.stm
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Why is the Lib Dem idea of scrapping Trident "ridiculous" ?
If jobs are the issue then it needs some imagination to find the missilemakers etc a modern day equivalent of ploughshares.
Brown's ramblings about Iran and North Korea as justification for continuing the pretence that Britain is still some mighty world power is what is ridiculous. Why even the Somali pirates laugh at our forces who watched whilst a Britsh couple were hijacked !
Even America and Russia are agreed on a wind down of Armageddon weaponry and Brown wants to crank it up.
I reckon Clegg is on a winner.
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# 270 xTunbridge - I have to agree. Gordon's delusional spending spree is going to force us to lose a lot of things we used to consider necessary. It's a moot point as to how independent our 'independent deterrent' is anyway, as I somehow don't see the US as a power that wouldn't have the final say so on any final launch decision. As such we are then only paying for the privelege of acting like a major world power. If we weren't a world power before Gordon's reign, we certainly aren't now and it's about time we concentrated on living responsibly and within our means. It might even mean we can afford functional and deployable armed forces, though I believe that they will have to assume a lesser role to fit our straightened circumstances.
Face it - we're bust, and plan accordingly.
When our leaders take some smelling salts, after the election. they'll have to make some tough decisions on what we'll be doing without in the coming years, and if they haven't re-fashioned the banks by then, they'll still pose the greatest threat to our economy. If the Taliban possessed the destructive capability of the banks, we'd be in serious trouble. Meanwhile our armed forces current tactics in Afghanistan are governed by Gordon's election strategy, but nothing takes priority to an ambition that has simmered so long.
How galling then that the fine idea of TV debates (I wonder who takes the bow for that one) has backfired so badly. It seems to have been aired as an episode of 'Everybody Loves Nick', even Gordon mysteriously, and I'm not sure how he can back out of his role as 'Clegg groupie' without doing a 'Dr Who' on us. Even Gordon's claim that he will assume a charitable role if he fails to win the election, sounds like the outlook of a person whose very essence is focused on one aim alone - ultimate power. He wants it too much for our good, but I am content that it will be an unfulfilled ambition.
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There is only one comment which sums up my feelings about this government, the whole sad sorry mess they have engineered and the thought that they may retain some form of power - it is, BE AFRAID, BE VERY AFRAID!
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Will there be an update to this as PWoolas has been on again? What about those definitions of job creation from Lab etc?
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I'm not sure that SFlanders figures add up either.
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On the home office website via the link above it says 'page not found'. I tried to do a search and the HO required ID and password.
!!!
Oh dear.
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