Byrne set tongues wagging
Fascinating interview with Liam Byrne, Chief Secretary to the Treasury, on the Daily Politics today (watch the full interview below) which has Westminster tongues wagging.
His central message: Labour would not have to raise taxes further -- other than those tax rises already announced and in the pipeline -- to meet its target of cutting the budget deficit in half by 2014.
He specifically ruled out a rise in VAT after the election, saying the upcoming increase in National Insurance would be enough to do the job.
There are, of course, some pretty big tax rises coming down the pike already, especially if you're among the better paid, so it's probably good politics to rule out more. Mr Byrne said that the government needed to cut the deficit by £82 billion by 2014 and that £19 billion of that would come from taxes already announced. No more would be needed, he said.
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The remainder of the deficit would be cut through economic growth (£25 billion) and cuts in public spending (£38 billion). He made the usual promise that spending could be cut without touching what politicians call "frontline services", though many might doubt that cuts of that magnitude can leave the frontline (a suitably hazy concept) unscathed.
Perhaps the most vulnerable part of the government's debt-reduction strategy is its reliance on economic growth. It's made some pretty heroic assumptions about growth to get to its £25 billion contribution to reducing debt. If growth comes in at less than that then the government would probably have to raise taxes further -- or cut deeper.
The Chief Secretary said there would be "no big giveaway" come Budget Day (March 24th), no post-election summer Budget should Labour win the election -- but there would be a comprehensive spending review in the autumn for 2011/12, 2012/13 and 2013/14.
Only then would we find out how the £38 billion of cuts would fall department by department to cut the deficit by 50% by 2014. He conceded that the more some departments were ring-fenced from cuts the deeper the axe would have to fall in the other departments.
So we still don't know what the cuts would be (as we don't with the Tories either) but it was a remarkable intervention nevertheless. Labour has told us that they don't think taxes will need to rise further (on top of rises already announced) between now and 2014 but that it will still be able to cut the deficit in half.
Why the government didn't wait til Budget Day to tell us this is something of a mystery. It could be a gaffe but Mr Byrne came prepared with a screed of notes and figures. He was not making it up as he went along. I suspect the government wants to get this line out now so it has plenty of time to sink in before polling day (now almost certainly May 6th).
It also puts pressure on the Tories to firm up their plans for cutting the deficit -- and to tell us if they too plan to do it without further tax rises.
Many will doubt Mr Byrne's pledge not to raise taxes -- but he's put the government in quite a sweet spot nevertheless.
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~29~RS~)
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Byrne said all that did he? With a straight face? Didnt have his fingers
crossed behind his back?
So they are going to work wonders and #### miracles are they?
As this is blatant electioneering,when can we expect Gordon to gird his loins,muster up his courage,grit his teeth and call an election?
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Clearly Mr Byrne is much cleverer than I, but just one question:
If the deficit this financial year is GBP178bn, and it has to be halved in four years, does that not mean a reduction of GBP89bn? GBP19bn from tax rises, GBP25bn from growth (aye, right) and GBP38bn from cuts leaves GBP7bn unaccounted for. Where does that come from? And where does the other GBP89bn come from after the fourth year?
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Andrew
Liam Byrne increasingly reminds me of Squealer to Browns Napoleon
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And there is the problem. This Government has never really seen honesty as a virtue.
One one hand Gordon Brown says there is more pain to come and on the other hand we are told that economic growth will restore the public finances. Surely only the most ardent Brownite, if there are any, would believe that he will actually cut public expenditure with the Labour leadership and the Unite union being much the same thing.
Andrew you must be the only BBC journalist who actually asks the hard questions of this government, please don't let them get away unscathed.
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#2 obangobang
Apparently the other 7billion is to come from "efficiencies".Which rather
begs the question of why these efficiencies are only being sought now.
Businesses,especially small businesses,have had to be ultra efficient just to survive,even then so many have gone to the wall.
I should like a complete breakdown of where these "efficiencies" will come from,and if its that easy,why hasnt it be done before now.
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Andrew are you really surprised I thought it was pretty obvious that there would be no other announcements at this stage. All Labour have done is promised to half the deficit not public debt by the end of the next parliament, given steady growth and the tax and spend already announced this was never going to be too hard an ask.
The budget will be the equivalent of the Chilcott inquiry a lot of sound and fury by rightwing commentators but actually no knock out punches.
Ultimately the election is going to be about the steady dependable statesman Brown against the cuddly prospective hubby Dave.
We will have a hung parliament with a Labour as the majority party just. Then the tories will impode.
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If economic growth is expected to account for £25 billion of the deficit, presumably this would apply whichever party was in office, so the Tories and Lib-Dems might as well incorporate this into their calculations. This would create a level playing field for the remainder of the deficit.
If 'efficiency savings' play any part, it implies that no cuts would be involved in these savings, so it would be irresponsible if they were not implemented immediately to make a quick start on reducing the deficit.
And you have to wonder, listening to Liam Byrne, whether he was primed by Brown not to mention Gordon's speciality for getting out of these jams : stealth taxes.
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Any sensible person knows that the only way to get out of this economic mess is through a combination of taxes and spending cuts.
We are grown up enough to accept that a cut means less money is being spent we don't need it dressing up as a spending efficiency.
Taxes will inevitably rise albeit NI,Vat or Income Tax - it may be a bitter pill to swallow but we may as well accept it.
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I heard a wonderful extract from a Parliamentary committee when Tony Wright asked Byrne why they were not saying how and what they would cut because otherwise they were not credible- remember Tony Wright is a Labour politician- Byrne kept saying that it was not necessarily the case. Wright got what I would say was very irritable with him and no wonder. I think this Byrne is one of the most abnoxious of the lot. Probably recruited by Mandelson.He is the one who gave out a list of the types of coffee or soup he liked and at what time when he first got his present job. The list was hysterical.
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Excellent analogy, Super. Spot on.
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Steady, dependable statesman Brown, my @rse....
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What's going on? I've just spent the best part of an hour drafting up an insightful and lucid piece about dangerous dogs, I run over here to post it and I find that you've all moved on. Thanks. Thanks a lot.
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"He was not making it up as he went along."
A labour politician making things up? Perish the thought...
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You cant take anything that any of this lot say as a future fact.
If we don't put a stop to CDS's and break up banks were in for hell maybe worse than Greece and people who bother to understand some of this stuff will see what the likes of Hugh Hendry are really about. He and his like [the banks] will hit Sterling big time. When that happens all quick methods will be used to raise tax and that includes VAT. One thing they learnt - get some smooth talkers on the box and cage the manic attack dogs.
Kirsty had a whole load of irrelevant stuff on NN last night (looked good though) so I'm learning how to belly dance to take my mind of it all.
Belly-dance Jo ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgdx3_dx2AQ
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The only interesting thing about the forthcoming budget is that for the past two years Darling has announced the date of the Budget as much as 68 days in advance of delivery date.
This year we get this small window of high expectations so one has to draw the conclusion that the secrecy of the date is part of the Labour strategy for the forthcoming election.
I expect the Budget to be non-committal in content but deliver a message of "we are all in this together" which is undoubtedly the soundbite that Labour intends to propagate to 'hopefully' win enough new parliamentary seats to screw David Cameron.
Why, the secrecy over the date and why so close to the probable date for the General Election? Simply because it cleverly puts all the onus onto the opposition to state what they WILL do to save the economy whilst even having a Budget from Labour looks like they are in charge.
The only weakness that Labour have got is their Leader who cannot even be weepy on TV without being castigated and the fact that Labour will have to administer as savage cuts in Public Expenditure as any government of another hue should it reach enough seats to form a new government later this year.
The only thing that David Cameron or Nick Clegg have got to do is keep up the message of "The United Kingdom needs to change after 13 years of Labour having been in power and this WILL resonate louder than any of the political shenanigans being delivered by this fag-end government with it burnt-out, busted flush of Brown, Balls and Mandelson.
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Liam Byrne is living in wonderland and I only wish I could actually live in the world he paints with such casual ease. With little sign of economic recovery he plants one into his fantasy figures to make everything appear rosey. Redundancies and industrial action are gathering pace, and as cuts are forced on to the government after the election these will become the norm. Meekly theories go along with this dream picture, so I won't bother watching the great debate, as it won't be grounded in reality.
I notice that the banking sector is bellyaching again that it would become second to New York. That's okay, our country is usually out of the world's top ten in most areas so why not in banking too, especially as we've discovered how damaging the industry is to our economy. All their constant whining does is illusrate how powerful their lobbying force is. The banking industry have not demonstrated any contrition or understanding, and I would set a target of lessening reliance on an industry so badly regulated and one with such a poor record of abusing the economy.
We once had pre-emminence in many industries - shipping, steel and cars, but times change and without much sign tha banks provide much benefit, except to themselves, then we should be comfortable with them taking their poisonous trade elsewhere.
I had to laugh when I noticed an announcement from the FSA that instead of just compensating victoms of mis-selling they would take action to prevent dodgey products being introduced to the market. Well - Lordy Lordy I always thouught that that was one of their fundamental purposes, but I think for banks and the FSA, it's a realisation come too late.
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What you're told is what you're meant to 'get'.
My..
It's obvious. What's needed is a lot more public servants on even more generous pension payments (I hear 'we', the incoming generating end, are soon to cover £79B - remind me, who added this burden?), plus the 'importing' of yet more folk to help justify building over greenfield sites for affordable housing (though there is absolutely no truth that an expanding population is having an environmental impact) and railway lines to get pols between constituencies and press-release readers between studios more quickly... to help economic growth and the environment (always a neat trick).
Campaigning on this basis might well appeal to a voting bloc which, in the fractured farce that is our democratic process, will result in a small % of a small turnout that can be spun as a massive mandate for 13 more great years.... of...?
I do love pledges. That's the stuff that makes cracked, faded, brown veneers smell less dodgy and look good enough just long enough to sell before it fades again.
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#14
So why has it been referred, this is totally unacceptable, it is even on topic...just like the news from the front, no bad news allowed, no enlightenmnet here then...
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Andrew,
will it also be the same with the Iraq Inquiry, put into purdah, during the election campaign, go to the site and see for yourself, nobody scheduled to appear. The one I've wanted to see is General Sir Mike Jackson, as for the Baha Mousa Inquiry, I know off topic, but who does set the agenda around here?
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Oh and Labour are going to narrow the gap between the Rich and Poor are they?? Then would they mind explaining how in the 13 years since they have been in power it has widen.
As for all their so called pledges and figures, I would bet good money that if they get to power after the next election, most of the figures will be changed and the pledges will be dropped.
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Good Morning Andrew,
I really would like to know what the process is when comments are referred to the moderators, is there an apeeals process. I have complained about somebody who made some comments, I get a reference number and an acknowledgement. With mine all I get is this has been refrerred to the moderators, and nothing, not even a specific reason, and I believe very strongly that there was no reason to take it away, it could only be for political reasons that it asked questions which needed to be asked, so I can take it that the 'experts' will now ask the very same questions which I have been asking, and then for somebody to say nobody saw this coming, there was no indication from anybody that things were amiss, yeah right, well I am very disappointed today and would really like to know why specifically why my comment has been removed!
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#24
You are of course absolutely correct. What will happen during the election, will these blogs and commenbts be closed down, as soon as somebody complains then the 'offending' comment is removed, but who are the complainants. Now I have to admit that it was me who complained. So what happens next, does somebody review the complaint and reinstate the comment, later when it is lost in antiquity, or will they say that this comment was removed, reinstated, and there was found to be no case to answer, just like the Peeress who will not be prosecuted.
This is, or has been a wonderful site Andrew. We know that there are huge numbers of people employed in the Ministry of Defence who are paid to watch all of these blogs, and to get anything 'offensive' removed, well I think that the same is happening with the political parties, the finance industry, and other organisation to many to mention. Just when independence is needed, then censorship in all of its forms comes in, there must be no dissent, the politicians are above reproach, this is not a game, it is not even a silly game, this is about democracy, and the test is being failed.
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25. Catch22 wrote:
#24
"You are of course absolutely correct. What will happen during the election, will these blogs and commenbts be closed down, as soon as somebody complains then the 'offending' comment is removed, but who are the complainants. Now I have to admit that it was me who complained."
What, complained about me @24, Catch?
Wouldn't think that comment would bother you.
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Re earlier comments about Liam Byrne there is a link to what Tony Wright had to say to him about misleading the public at
diack.co.uk/fitaloon/tag/tony-wright/
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An election in the near future could be directing these projections and of course the projections are for future dates that no one has the ability to predict. Someone at a later day can say the calculations were wrong or some new event requires a change in plans. When the government was warned of the coming financial collapse, years in advance, they did nothing. The banks are holding the government hostage and no one has the courage to stand up and put them in their place.
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On the official news we know that cuts have not taken place yet and are planned for 2010 and later. Yet on the independent blogs there is anecdotal evidence that cuts have been made already at local government or hospital Trust levels. The main common denominator in these "cuts" is PFI contract repayments.
Meanwhile the central government parrots away that central government spending has increased truthfully although not above the rate of inflation (RPI the true measure). This poses huge difficulties for the opposition parties as the subject matter is complex and likely to perplex the electorate at the best of times and the run up to an election is not the best of times.
Additionally workers freedom of speech has been clamped down quite severely. Confidentiality contracts only used to apply if the post dealt with sensitive information such in the Secret Services. Now everyone is at it - whistleblowers are routinely sacked or have injunctions placed against them. Understandably organisations wish to protect their good name but if wrongdoing has taken place surely speaking out is the right thing to do?
The main critique here is not political or the policies, it is the doing the job properly issue. How many cases have there been recently about what amounts dereliction of duty of care by social services, police and medical staff recently? Dozens that we know about, Lord knows how many have been covered up. And if someone had spoken out and saved a life how quickly would they have achieved pariah status.
It is a terrible society that has been created where people know that wrongdoing is taking place but are intimidated and fearful of speaking out. Most professionals are smart people and if they do not know it can soon work it out for themselves. I would never have believed that the Sicilian act of omerta could be embraced so passionately by a moral Anglo saxon race.
Of course the British media already have first hand experience of excessive intimidation by the Labour spinners, but only Rawnsley et al have had the courage to stand up and speak out. I see that the number of different bloggers on this site is being silently reduced/culled by the month - what is happening?
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28 GoS
Given that the government is still going to have a substantial stake in the banking system for the foreseeable future, it is incomprehensible that they have continued to let the bankers call the tune.
I am taking all these projections with a pinch of salt at the moment - we are unlikely to know the true picture this side of the election.
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12 Saga
The dogs are still running so post it anyway.
In fact there are so many blogs still open it is becoming almost exhausting keeping apace with them.
But better than all closed like used to happen.
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#26
That is exactly the point. It was the sort of comment which I felt was actually totally inoffensive, and actually off the point. It was also not very well structured and was just a combination of words which meant very little and did not contribute to any sort of discussion, or argument. It was because of its content that I thought that it would indicate how the system fails. It was an appropriate complaint, but I do apologise if it has upset anybody,I think it will be a problem the closer that we get to the election, which actually must not be held by early June, because if the monarch dies in the period before the election then there will be a period of mourning, which could mean a delay of upto 14 days, or so I have heard it said around and about.
As for other comments I can well understand people being concerned about people not divulging information because of fear, or injunctions, or some sort of expansion of 'privacy laws'. It is because of the media coverage during the war in Iraq, by reporters who bought it, that I have a problem.
For example, down here in Devon there has been a very expensive job evaluation scheme at our local County Council. What this has led to is many senior people actually having their wages cut, by many thousands of pounds, yet I think many people are being silenced by confidentiallity clauses. No unions seem to be standing up for their workers, they are just letting this go ahead.
Chilcot has been interesting than many give it credit for, the number of people who had concerns who stayed in post, who did not speak out, they had wives, or husbands, mortgages, debts, loans, whatever, the point I make is the one from Shakespeare, and it is that money makes pimps and whores of us all, think about it, and it is surprising what people will accept to keep their jobs, their income, it is the age old of problem of when is it right to refuse orders, some soldiers have had the courage to refuse orders, not all of them have been prosecuted, the government really does not want it, so soldiers now have to sign confidentiality clauses in their contracts, or look at the conditions around compensation for injuries sustained.
I agree totally with earlier comments, but I will put it differently, I see a society which is so seriously not 'happy' and I ask people to look in the mirror and do you really like what you see, because there is something wrong, only I can't put my finger on it, the end looms, I think it really does.
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Tax increase will ensue no mater which party wins. I predict that will mean VAT (fuel and foodstuffs) will also need to be increased to make any dent on the deficit.
Employment will also continue to be an issue in the near future. Bryne must surely be aware that employment rates are forecast to increase over the next 18 months, and therefore to continue to suggest that the budget will ultimately depend on employment rates either going up or down is a foolish concept. The government would be better positioned if they expect a further squeeze on the states purse owing to a continued increase in unemployment rates.
Finally it would be better to make cuts across all departments thus diluting the overall affect on services as a whole. Ring fencing a few services will have massive consequences on the ‘unprotected’ areas leading to an uncertain future for all who call Britain home.
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A previous post gave you credit for being one of the fairest interviewers on TV and rightly so but last night your constant reference to Mr Cameron as 'airbrush Dave' etc was beneath you.
You have a higher standard than this - surely?
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32. Catch22
Hey Catch, no problem. It was just my feelings about Liam Byrne and Labour's pledges... so on topic but not designed as a particular trigger for debate. Freedom of expression and all that.
But if you chose to make a protest point then that's your right, probably not the most effective way considering the random nature of this blog. The daft thing is it's still being 'moderated'. Only two short lines... makes you wonder.
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Bryne did not say that the government would not expand VAT to include food, childrens clothing, books ect.
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Andrew,
how very interesting the Number 10 meeting with Brown and Sarkozy, and the subsequent press conference.
There is a part where Sarkozy actually says, that Brown is Anglaise, about six minutes into the Sarkozy speech, and I am French, now the interpretor translated this as being British, whereas of course Anglaise is English, I think that this is a serious international incident, and there must be an immediate investigation into the comments by the French president.
What is interesting is that Brown did not point out this major error, funny that, he is actually not at all confident! Also I am never really sure when Brown says stuff like 'my country' 'our country' without defining what he means. Also went into the Parliament website where they refer to the English Parliament, oh if only we could have one, I want a referendum on an English parliament, I seriously think that it is time to dissolve the union, it is no more, it is kaput.
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Andrew,
apparently my earlier post was eventually removed because it might be seen to be defamatory:
'Disparaging the individual in their office, profession or trade or the organisation's office, profession or trade'.
Now I seriously think that there is a problem and it relates to a failed bank. I will not name the bank in question but as more information is released about what has occurred it will highlight that people really should have asked questions, and look at themselves in the mirror, and ask themself should I have had the courage to speak out, not to accept assurances, should we all look in the mirror and say to ourselves, do the ends justify the means, do we all follow orders without question, there are serious poroblems coming up, and it is not the time to come up with we are advancing on all fronts, we must keep up the pressure, we must be resolute, the enemy must be defeated, the trouble is that the enemy might be within. For a society to be destroyed from outside, it will first destroy itself from within.
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What I saw was Andrew Neil bowling Liam Byrne several overs of slow full tosses to be smacked to the boundary. The credulous Neil seems to have been infected with the same labour bias of the rest of the BBC. Has someone got to him or is he afraid of a massive pay cut if the Conservatives win?
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Fudsdad
I have beeen ABL [anyone but Labour] for the last few months - but I confess the Tories need to seriously up their game - I would almost warm to John Major's naff soapbox now in place of airbrushed Dave [as Andrew is wont to call him].
Andrew does not need me to defend him but his defence is whatever Brown has done wrong in the past he has a credible position going forward - I happen to disagree with that view but can see why others would take Andrew's viewpoint.
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I agree with miwc that Cameron's performance in opposition has been lack lustre and weak, but then who wins the election will make little difference to the looming disaster ahead.
If people realised that two car families would become a rarity and 'school runs' a thing of the past, I bet there'd be an electoral rucus, but that's only a taster of the nasty surprises in store for those of us sleepwalking into our politicians' dreams. They know we wouldn't be able to cope with what's ahead so we have to waltz around the truth making political discussion rather pointless. It's rather like those in the condemned cell discussing football trying to take their minds off things.
In honesty the political debate has become farcical with every politician discussing savings without cuts, and even they will create redundancies unless someone's been over ordering paper clips on an industrial scale. Factoring in a recovery when none is anywhere on the horizon is beyond optimism, more like desperation, but no one dare speak the more likely outcome. In which case, why bother having a debate at all ?
The expenses fiasco has represented the best analogy for all that's wrong with our politicians, and still they founder about in hapless ignorance, and they want our respect ?
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Well that depends on how you calculate change obviously. If you're using a base year to calculate inflation and then you put something up by that years inflation it doesn't quite work out the same over time does it??
Obviously you'd need to try some calculations before commenting such as savings certificates, public sector wages, tax allowances, benfits, NI a bit more tricky, and see what has really ballooned.
Somebody commented that tax rises are inevitable with investment. Aye?? Since when? e.g tax decreases under the last conservative government to encourage saving and investment. Numerous other examples. Even Labour does it sometimes. So who isn't spending their way out of a recession?
You'll never know until you learn to do the calculations. You can't trust anyone these days, you even have to check their calculations before commenting. And produce your sums to prove it
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Andrew,
talk about setting tongues wagging, there was an interesting piece on the Today programme this morning relating to the generals, and the equipment problems.
There was mention of the politicalization of the army generals, and then they mentioned as one who seems not to be tarred with the brush is General Sir Mike Jackson, who is often referred to in the media.
Now I find that very interesting, because as far as I am aware he has not given any 'evidence' to the Chilcot Inquiry, well not as far as I am aware, and I would have thought that his evidence would surely be a major contribution.
For example, surely he set tongues wagging when he revealed in his recent autobiography that before the Iraq war he actually took his own legal advice. Now why would a senior officer in the military consider it necessary to seek legal advice before accepting an order? Surely that set tongues wagging.
We should also look at what actually happened in Iraq under his command. Did we not have extra-ordinary with our American Allies, the same with enhanced interrogation techniques, did we not have Baha Mousa, and did we not eventually withdraw from Basra, or as some might say retreat with our tails between our legs, at the dead of night, after reaching agreement with our opponents.
Now some may say that this is off subject, I don't think it is, and here is my reasoning. We really must not allow any comments to be made without putting forward a different viewpoint, if comments are not challenged then they become a truth, and just like all the other stuff going on at the time, if you do not say anything then you must agree with the comment. Bit like Sarkozy referring to Brown at the press conference as 'Anglaise' that is English, or the Number 10 website saying that a recent cabinet meeting was held in Exeter, when it wasn't it was held at Exeter Race Course, which is actually in Teignbridge.
The economy is just so busted, but I really don't see the solution. Take the deficit. The government will have to have enough money coming in not only to meet their running costs, but also to repay what they borrowed the previous year. There is a problem, PFI and other schemes are met out of revenue, they are not capital investments. We have allowed the government to 'invest' but with nothing to show for it, the schools built under PFI, are assets of the construction company, or holding company, not the state. People must understand the difference between spending and investment. If we invest in the education of a child, who then goes on to become a professional, let us say a doctor, and that doctor then emigrates, what has happened to our investment?
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42.
Now coats... is that you again, Catch?
It's not in anyone's interest to refer things unless they are slanderous.
If you don't like something, register your disapproval or rebuttal in your comment. The Mods will deal with profanities. That way we know there's only one body who are removing our comments.
There is enough censorship around without contributors joining in.
Freedom of speech is one of the pillar stones of democracy.
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#45
Absolutely, definitely, not! I made my point yesterday, and that was quite enough.
In the meantime it is interesting the coverage given to the report on the Lehman Brothers collapse. There are serious questions to answer.
I think that people really ought to look into the opening of their new offices in London, who opened them, and what was said at the opening ceremony.
I have pointed out previously how there is a lag time between when the military order some equipment and it is delivered. It is the same with anything else, nothing just happens instantly, as has been found in the case of the Large Hadron Collider. Life is an iterative process, mistakes are made, corrections, another mistake, another correction, eventually it works, sort of!
The problems we all face in life, you accepted this two years ago, why do you not now. Same with soldiers who join the army and have to decide when a order legal, and when it is not. You signed up, of your own free will, you must have known what you were doing. Well yes, but the orders have to be legal, that was the problem with the Nazis in Germany, at some time people have to say, this is not right, I am refusing to do what you tell, and I will take the consequences. Not enough people are standing up to be counted, people seem to be keeping their heads below the parapit, and society is much the worse for it.
Take Brown, and his Freudian slip, 'I saved the world' oops banks, yeah course you did.
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Saturday morning and BBC Breakfast News to get a full appreciation of the state of our fair nation...
I now discover that, in the course of an investigation, one of the highest offices of governance changes rules to affect the outcome, rather helping one of their own escape a little local difficulty with the law, which she and her chums are part of drafting but seemingly not subject to in the same way as mere mortals. Par for the course, apparently. We know where to find 'em, even if, having done so, they're Teflon. Can't even vote some of them out.
Also need to review my understanding of the word 'unpleasant', as a children's commissioner introduces a new definition that I have trouble recognising.
And if 'lessons have been learned' is high on my list of daft platitudes, too often spewed from the weasel mouths of those in high office, if something's 'unacceptable', yet was, is & remains 'accepted', what does that say about the value of the word and cred of person using it?
Beautiful day out. You need such things to erase thoughts of those at the dark Mordoresque heart of this lovely country that is the Westminster Village with its oversupply of Useful and useless idiots.
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Having read most of the comments on here, #2 from obangobang is the most pertinent and on topic.
As well as the missing £7 billion of deficit rightly highlighted, it shows that contrary to Byrne or Labour in general insistence that they cannot state the required cuts now, because they do not know what the state of the economy is going to be, it is clear that cuts of at least £38 billion are going to be required. It needs to be stated that unless a plan for the required cuts is given before the election then Labour should forfeit any right to be taken seriously as a government.
Why should the electorate be expected to vote in ignorance?
Also, it should be remembered that halving the deficit in 4 years is not a cause for celebration. All the time there is a deficit, the UK debt rises and that makes servicing that debt more difficult and expensive.
No-one should vote Labour unless they come clean with the electorate.
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If you wanted to hire a cheat or a liar, or the best in the game at expenses swindling you couldn't do any better than hire someone who had the Lords or Parliament on their CV. If you take that as your starting point, then all else that comes out of the mouths of those who inhabit Westeminster is seen in context. Talk of efficiency savings when Westminster itself is a leaking barrel of cash squandered on inquiries which are not much more than more jobs for the boys.
A nice story on the pay rises of vice chancellors of our universities who have been bleating about being cash strapped. Presumably they wish to join the exhalted realms of the bankers who have attached themselves to the public purse as nothing more than leeches. The UK social security system works perfectly, only its best efforts support the wealthy and ignore the poor.
It's a shame that there isn't a Socialist choice at the next election and that Gordon's form of Capitalism is even more invidious than Cameron's. All this support for the economy that is much trumpeted. Where's all that going I wonder. If this money were being spent on something that might exist after the recesion is over I might be more impressed, but it's just being used to grease the economy. It's pumping adrenalin into a lifeless body in the hope that it might recover of its own accord, which is appearing less and less likely.
If the economy doesn't recover, and there's little sign it will (especially with strikes and redundancies filling the news headlines) then all economic forecasts represent nothing wore than wishful thinking with unemployment becoming a greater factor.
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#49
did nobody else notice the guarantees given by Mandelson to General Motors yesterday. There is a very good programme on our screens tonight about Detroit, a City which depended on the motor industry for its prosperity. However, it was private money, not State, and I still remember a certain Byers fellow being loose with our money before a previous election, and when the election was over, why the recipient of our largesse went under. By the way in America General Motors is now known as Government Motors.
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So given a tory MP destroyed the anti-poverty bill (the one that is aimed at stopping the nasty vulture funds), can we believe the Tories have really changed, to be the nice cuddly folk they want us to think they are?
Who was the MP, Andrew?
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Andrew,
isn't life interesting. There have been notices on the side of the motorways about an event at Wootton Basset, and that there may be delays.
Now I here this morning that the event is a large number of bikers riding through the town to raise money for a charity. Now what is interesting is that apparently there has been an accident, and that there are now traffic delays, and diversions.
Now just how interesting is that, I wonder why Brown went to the national military commemoration in Staffordshire, to lay some flowers to show respect, and yet he and no other minister has been interested enough to go to Wootton Basset, or if they have then there has been no reporting of it, or none that I know of.
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We rail at our politicians for being dishonest and yet the opinion polls suggest that the electorate does no want to hear the truth.
Darling is not going to announce any cuts in the forthcoming budget, the Tories are backing off from their previous statements, are we really too fickle to face up to the facts?
Now the party leaders wives are being paraded in front of us - to humanise their spouses - what next the family pets?
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#53 menin
The trend to give prominence to wives of political leaders is to be condemned and should be ridiculed by the electorate at every opportunity. It seems only to have emerged since 1997. Why? Are the leaders so insecure or of doubtful character that they need props or apologists?
On your other topic, Ken Clarke sounded quite reasonable on the Andrew Marr Show this morning, although he didn't reveal any more details, of course. But at least he's done it all before - he's not a novice.
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Ref 52. It's not interesting at all.
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I just wanted to comment on the new proposed high-speed rail link. Surely, with rail travel already too expensive for most of us, this is just another ploy by our MPs to make sure they can get away from Parliament even faster than they can at the moment, and, probably at our expense, seeing as how we'll probably be paying their fares!
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56
Here in Bucks the locals are not amused, as where the line is out in the open noise levels will be horrendous which will affect the value of property. I could not figure out why the new line had to go near Aylesbury at all. But then I thought: put a devious schemeing PM who is always on the lookout to do his enemes down and it all becomes clear. Tony Blair has recently bought a multi million country mansion near Aylesbury - would Brown's hatred of his former neighbour be that extreme?
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But you still won't mention Liam Byrne. Are you friendly with him in some way?
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I've never known a time like it when the opposition has so little access to the figures, to the point where they cannot make any election 'pledges' regarding such things.
At the last election Micheal Howard was talking about cutting the number of civil servants. It sounds like an unfair playing field.
If they can achieve the debt reduction as Liam Byrne says then the latter half will follow. But The £82billion or so is a massive undertaking, and if it all works out I think they will actually end up in profit!! And that will take care of the economic growth.
I don't know what the % is on the bonds they've issued. If it's low then they (we) have got a lot of very cheap loans. Servicing the debt won't really turn out to be that expensive.
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How humiliating is it that Milliband's propaganda adverts have been slapped down by the ASA ? It's bad enough that our MP's have had to have lessons in how to make out their expense claims, but it doesn't stop them squandering our money on inane and puerile adverts that are just going to be the butt of pub jokes.
Why do we need adverts ? Presumably because no one believes in global warming any more, but spending millions on 'nursery rhyme' propaganda is a horrifying development. If they haven't learned by now, hopefully they will soon, that any programme with government backing is the quickest way to whip up public antagonism. Clearly their love for themselves is much greater than the public's.
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Or should that be 'Byrne sets tails wagging' ?
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Good evening Andrew,
I watched Brown on the Politics Show which was later today than usual because of the wonderful coverage of some Grand Prix somewhere. I don't believe how a government and a BBC which is meant to be so green can actually countenance Grand Prix racing at all. But that is not my point.
The problem I have is still with Brown and the costs, and delivery times of urgent operational equipment. It relates to comments which I have made for some time and that is how long does it take to specify and deliver a vehicle with sufficient protection to prevent the deaths of our soldiers. Well Brown has only just announced the purchase of 200 more suitably protected against IEDs. Let us say that they will take about two years to deliver. So let us say how do you define urgent, well if I know the MoD it will mean oh five years.
The same question was asked of Brown by defining 'front line services' and then all that Brown could talk about when questioned by a clinical psychologist was that her job was 'important' but he would not identify it as front line. So now we are probably going to have committees of the great and the good identifying 'front line' 'very important' and just 'important' services. Kafka would seem to be alive and well, and we are back in 1984.
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copperDolomite wrote:
So given a tory MP destroyed the anti-poverty bill (the one that is aimed at stopping the nasty vulture funds), can we believe the Tories have really changed, to be the nice cuddly folk they want us to think they are?
Who was the MP, Andrew?
Be a bit more explicit, "copperDolomite" and you might get an answer?
In other words, what the hell are you on about?
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Andrew,
please understand that I do read papers from other places, because they give me perspectives which I would lack if I only read English newspapers. So here is a piece from the Boston Globe, the state which gave us (Sir) Ted Kennedy, who was so admired by Gordon Brown:
'Hundreds of the projects delivered fewer jobs than promised, and some companies actually slashed employment. Many firms won subsidies for projects they were set to build without state assistance; in some cases, incentives that were approved long af ter the projects were underway or complete. And many got generous packages though they agreed to create only a handful of low-paying jobs'.
Now what happens in America is often repeated over here, and I think that we have seen with the banks how they are quite quick to receive taxpayers money, and look how they have repaid us. I am fearful that our government will make mistakes, which will only be revealed too late.
I really do think that there should be a proper system of audit created which will monitor where taxpayers money is going, how it is spent, and whether it does actually give value.
As for if and when the assets of the nationalised banks are sold off, then of course they will give us a profit, they were nationalised at nil cost, if you ignore all the money paid in the rights issues. What annoys me is that Northern Rock are nationalised, yet they still sponsor Newcastle United. Taxpayers have a majoir stake in RBS, yet I watch rugby and see RBS painted an the field of play. What is going on, I think that questions ought to be asked about how money is being used in these sponsorship deals.
As for the HMRC and allowing firms to defer their tax payments, well these firms will have to pay the money they owe pretty soon, they can't be allowed to defer their payments for too much longer.
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Or perhaps even 'Byrne sets tongues alight'.
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Junkkmale you are trying to say 'what is and what should never be'. And do you not think discovering a piece of teflon instead of a person might thwart your plans somewhat?
Catch if you worry about the government making mistakes you won't have time to eat. Practice looking bland and uninterested. The quote is quite interesting and relevant, but there's no date. Isn't it for Newcastle to worry about being sponsored by Northern Rock?? You worry about everything! Worry worry worry! Stop it!! The military, global warming, fumes, the word green, banks, money, does it extend to baked beans, hedgehogs, steel, socks etc????? You even need to be forgiven for reading the Boston Globe!!
Gomer - £82 billion debt. MP's expenses. Sorry, don't get it.
You all wind each other up with your worries. It's not pleasant. Take up knitting, I've knitted 3 jumpers in the time you lot have worried. Go and get your body waxed, do something different. Don't run around naked it's illegal, and other old and wise sayings. There's a lot of truth in them. You can have any colour you like so long as it's brown, etc.
And unfounded accusations, that's not nice. Sombody swears online and the accusations fly. That's not nice. Ooh dear, back to the knitting.
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These figures, historically, are huge. But in todays' money, with the size of the government 'turnover', £38 billion isn't that much. And equally, neither is £25billion.
Theoretically there will be less to pay on loans, perhaps lower bills for Afghanistan etc; they will dent the £38billion. The high speed rail link is a major investment contributing to economic growth, on a pretty big scale. They can 't raise taxes too much because it will deter investment and affect the growth figures. It's all achievable.
It's nice to have a cast iron guarantee that the tax increases stop there. Good.
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Lower bills for Afghanistan ceterisparibus ? I'm afraid not. If anything the costs will escalate as aid increases. Fighting costs are as nothing to what will be spent on supporting the Afghan economy, and that will continue long after we're gone, otherwise the whole escapade will have been a waste of time, which I'm sure it will be seen to have been anyway.
I also read somewhere that bunker buster bombs were being received in possible preparation for action elsewhere. I'm not a pacifist by nature but it is sheer folly for us to behave as if we're a world power when our government have bankrupted the country, and are endeavouring to do it again. It's quite bemusing that two of our ministers had a parent who famously railed against the Vietnam war and yet his offspring now support a government making the very same mistakes.
One commentator mentioned unemployment reaching 10 per cent which will make a mess of current forecasts about an economic recovery, and this is what makes current political discussion a complete farce as neither side addresses reality. It's rather like listening in to a converstaion between two rather elderly and confused relatives.
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Andrew,
listening to the Today programme this morning and the 'problems' over legal advice to Lehman Brothers in London. I have said before that there really must be a thorough investigation into the legal profession and the accountancy profession. If being in a profession means that advice is given which brings that profession into disrepute, then surely it is time for change.
It all comes down to definitions, I want Brown to strictly define what the government mean by a front line job, what is a very important job, and an important job. Also what is meant by the difference between a job and a role.
I would also like to see the reaction by HMRC to the Lords definition of main residence, do they agree with the definition, because surely they must clarify the position for us mere mortals, as against our rulers in parliament. One change which is required is that all Tax Returns, for those in the commons and lords, must be freely available for inspection on the net.
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Andrew,
it is not only politicians which can set tongues wagging. There are more and more tongues beginning to wag around the world, take the New York Times for example in respect of 'problems' with private contractors operating in Afghanistan and Pakistan:
'The official, Michael D. Furlong, hired contractors from private security companies that employed former C.I.A. and Special Forces operatives. The contractors, in turn, gathered intelligence on the whereabouts of suspected militants and the location of insurgent camps, and the information was then sent to military units and intelligence officials for possible lethal action in Afghanistan and Pakistan, the officials said.
While it has been widely reported that the C.I.A. and the military are attacking operatives of Al Qaeda and others through unmanned, remote-controlled drone strikes, some American officials say they became troubled that Mr. Furlong seemed to be running an off-the-books spy operation...'
Now I think that there ought to be an investigation into the use of private contractors with executives, or directors who are British citizens. There are many firms now operating in the region who have contracts with the British government, who 'protect' business people and diplomats. This is a very lucrative business.
Now you may say what has this got to do with budgets, well I contend that before the war in Iraq, Brown effectively hid the cost of the war by putting the cost into a box called anti-terror, as he confirmed in his evidence to Chilcot. Now we need to see that money allocated for international development does not end up in the 'wrong box' of mercenaries and agent proveaucateurs, as for Drones, Reaper and Predator these are extra-ordinarily expensive but are being delivered before any replacment for snatch vehicles. Questions have to be asked as to why the troops are going out on patrol at all, why not use the Drones, money is going to be massively wasted on the new vehicles, because we will be retreating very soon, and will we just hand over the new vehicles to the Afghans as part of our aid budget.
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Andrew,
ah World Consumer Rights Day, so Brown makes an announcement, and I quote from the Number 10 website:
“We want not only to empower and protect you as consumers, but also to make banks and credit card companies behave responsibly and act fairly. And so we will re-write the rules on lending to end the sharp practices which sting so many credit card holders.
“For example, by changing how your repayments are allocated to your credit card debt we will help put hundreds of millions of pounds a year back into your pockets and purses. That’s money you could use for a family outing, a treat for the kids, or a meal in town.”
This is absolutely amazing from the man. Consider he is talking as though he does not suffer from any of these sharp practices. Does he not have a debit card, or a credit card, or any other sort of card. Did he not take out a mortgage on any property. Is the man in the real world, or is he and his family so totally detavhed from any sort of reality. When he says 'you' could use for a family outing, excuse me, that is because we have to pay for such things, does he get so many freebies that he doesn't understand that 'we' include him as well, if you get what I mean. He is just as much a consumer as we mere mortals, or haven't I got it about politicians and money.
In point of fact does Gordon Brown need more financial advice from experts, is he as ignorant as we are, can I actually help him out as to how banks, and financiers work, good grief, to use a well known phrase does he stand in front of the mirror, as he shaves, saying to himself 'I know nothing' because I want to know everything that Brown knows so that I know what he doesn't know. The man is a genius, the man who saved the world.
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66. Leuctrid
"You all wind each other up with your worries. It's not pleasant. Take up knitting, I've knitted 3 jumpers in the time you lot have worried."
:)
Some hold governments accountable, others knit.
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72 TheBlameGame
The ladies below Madame Guillotine did both.
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70#
One of the reasons that the likes of Reaper are popular Taggy, is that they are unmanned ISTAR platforms that can be up there a long amount of time and can attack targets of opportunity at very short notice. The future is likely to be stealthy and unmanned, unless we're talking about Chinooks. Reaper and other such drones have their place in asymmetric warfare.
Whether it is above that of the replacement for snatch land rover though, is a different matter. Theres no excuse for that, that was a bad decision. Especially when they sold all the "Pig" units (the better armoured ones from Northern Ireland) to the Iraqi police instead of giving them to the army. That was an absolute howler of a decision.
Eitherway, Reaper is certainly a lot cheaper (as a force multiplier) than parking a non-airworthy Nimrod over Kandahar for 8-10 hours at a go then having to pay compensation to the families afterwards... and a lot cheaper than buying JSTARS from the yanks...
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73. At 09:58am on 15 Mar 2010, xTunbridge wrote:
72 TheBlameGame
"The ladies below Madame Guillotine did both."
Hi, xT... yes, that thought occurred to me straight after I pushed the Send key. Maybe Catch does knit.
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#74
I have a problem though, as usual I hear you all say, but this goes back to Harry, and his really stupid 'we do bad things to bad people' and views of him sat at a computer calling up an airstrike and then the deaths recorded of 'insurgents' or freedom fighters as they could well be known.
Listened to Brown on Womans Hour this morning and you would never believe that labour have been the government since 1997. The questions were also more incisive and challenging and I for one was not content with his responses. It is not in the companies interest, the workers interest, the national interest, or more interestingly Browns interests, for the BA strikes to go ahead, yeah, the same with electing labour MPs who will persist with Brown as leader. Please will people understand that Brown is not elected by anybody in England, he is not yet a president!
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70
You forgot to add in your post:
Is it in their best interests for the private security companies to achieve the war aims quickly?
or as I sometmes wonder:
If Osama bin Laden was captured and most of Al Qaeda destroyed would the soldiers involved get a commendation or would they be court martialled? I get the feeling that the real powers that be (the military industrial complex) do not want these wars to end anytime soon.
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#77
it is also in the interests of the politicians to keep 'the war' going. How it is their moral imperative to keep us safe. To protect us from 'the enemy'. That everything we do is for you, that all the suveilance industry is to protect you form, well everything.
There is a massive industry involved as you quite rightly say. Before the great war, the navy was massively expnaded, and that gave massive job lifts to the north, the same with the steel companies, why do you rpoduce steel, well the navy needs it to build their ships. Why do you need to build massive ships, well to protect our empire, and our shipping. Why did you need an empire, well because we did, that is such a stupid question.
So why do we need to protected from 'the enemy' well because they are over there, and they might threaten us. But why would they threaten us? Well its because we're over there, to protect us from them! But why would they attack us, well because when you had an empire you made enemies. Right so we made enemies! Yes thats right, of all these foreigners who we invaded, but did mot defeat. Oh right, so now they want to blow me up! Yes that right. What because of what I did! No, idiot, because of what somebody who was from your country did something long ago. Oh they built the ships you mean! Yeah, they might have done, or manufactured the shells, or the bullets.
So, somebody who was born, and died before I was even a twinkle of my fathers eye, did something which upset somebody over there somewhere, and now they want to kill me, and my family, and friends? Yes, that's right, clever isn't it. What and people get paid to protect me from these people, and they go and kill somebody, on my behalf. Yeah, that's right, because we do bad things to bad people.
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#77
And what you might like to find out for yourself is which firm does General Sir Mike Jackson now work for. As for a former head of SAS in Iraq, I wonder what he does now. But look what has happened to the four security guards, or private contractors who guarded a person who has recently been freed.
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Andrew,
have you noticed how politicians have started a sentence by 'I want to be honest with you', or simply 'to be honest' so watch out for how many times they utter those words, and then touch their noses, just like at the end of Browns interview on the Politics Show on Sunday, watch it.
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Gordon's been ruthless with the banks - huh ?
The FSA thinks there's a lot of impropriety in the City ? - who woke them up ?
Considering that Gordon allowed the banks to reconfigure his original script, it's difficult not to believe that every time Gordon punishes a bank, they can usually be seen exiting out of a back door with another bag of loot. Whatever miniscule benefit he has prised from their clenched fists isn't going to outweigh the coming austerity and gross increases in power bills that our eco-maniac PM is going to slam us with after the election.
If he wants to go for higher taxes then he need look no further then all the super rich vice chancellors who seem to scoop up increased funding only to put it in their wallets. Gordon appears to have trouble finding rich people to tax, which is surprising considering that most are on the government payroll. Perhaps they don't pay any tax. That privelege is probably reserved for the poor.
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There's absolutely no holding governments to account going on amongst this chitter chatter, you don't believe it yourself and neither does anyone else.
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Andrew,
I think that Liam Byrne has just set tongues wagging again in his interview on the Today programme this morning.
When asked about tax increases, and in particular I would suggest VAT, that what he said on earlier programmes was only hat the chancellor had been saying earlier. Now he also went on to say that any chancellor had, and I paraphrase his comment, the right to set tax rates. Now I would say that therefore everybody must, to be honest, take anything said in respect of taxes by politicians with a very large pinch of salt.
With all the uncertainty around nobody can seriously say what is happening tomorrow, let alone in three months, a year, or three years. But, what really has to be understood about the economy is the supertanker problem, there is a lot of time and distance between when the captain says turn to port, to the safe harbour, and when the ship actually reaches the safety of the port, whilst the storm rages outside the breakwater. There is a time lag between when tax rises are announced, and when they take effect, like the changes which will soon hit taxpayers, of rises in the top rate of tax, and national insurance.
There is a time lag, nothing happens instantly. We are heading for stormy waters, and I think that soon it will be time to abandon ship, we are heading for the rocks, or the iceberg, and there is no port to which we can go, and it really is no good being Nelson like and putting the telescope to the blind eye. Some commentators think that Brown is almost Churchillian in his use of language, I think that he is more like Nelson, the only difference being that we are not going to be on the Victory, we are on the Titanic.
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Andrew,
there really is no hope, I mean seiously. Consider my local MP, Ben Bradshaw, who is minister for Culture, Media, and Sport, and our constituency is Exeter. Now Exeter has the Northcott Theatre, which has gone into administration. So what happens, according to an article in our local newspaper, it's been saved until after the general election:
'...the Arts Council has announced it will provide an extra £100,000 to enable it to complete most of its spring programme'.
Now this is amazing, just like that there goes another £100,000 just like that, another £100,000 of taxpayers money, from hard working familys, to keep a theatre going which nobody wants to go to because of accessibility problems, but most importantly it doesn't attract sufficient audiences to its performances. What I would like to see Andrew from people all over the country is being able to make postings of where they are seeing money being spent on a local project, where there is really no justification for such expenditure.
The government has also apparently allowed substantial sums of taxpayers money being spent on removal of senior executives at huge expense to the public purse. We really do need a new government, so that new people come in who have not been part of the system, to be forensic accountants, to look at the books, that is what is needed, people from outside the system. I mean I can imagine myself getting access to the books 'what, you've transferred $50 billion off the balance sheet, you've done what!' as for PFI, which built schools for the future, yeah right given to the council in twenty five years in pristine condition.
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Andrew,
After 13 years of deceit, mendacity and outright lies how can anyone believe anything from Labour. Truth is an alien concept to Labour but it always has been. Socialism is built on concepts and economic policies that are mutually exclusive so they have to be
"economical with the actualite"
to quote the late Alan Clarke. You already know this, I suspect.The alarming thing about UK politics today is the lack of plurality. The three main parties are all so similar. This is bad - just look at Scotland where this has existed for a generation. Is there anybody living there who does not work for the government? Not many.
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Why does the DP ask viewers to listen to the opinions of people like Derek Hatton? Wasn't he a high-profile figure at the time of the 'winter of discontent', attacked by Neil Kinnock for his antics in Liverpool?
He does so-called 'working class voters' a disservice, condescendingly condemning them always to vote Labour. They have more intelligence and more integrity than that. And I seem to remember that, after being kicked out of his post in Liverpool, he went on to more lucrative activities - well away from his 'working class' roots.
Unfortunately, although he may have moved on financially, his views still seem to be stuck in the 1970s. The DP should think more carefully before insulting its viewers like this.
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It's puzzling that he can be so certain labour will not put up taxes.
The only other solution I can see is that Gordon would put two fingers up to all of them and play for even more time by printing even more money. Hoping that world growth will return in the meantime.
The pound would drop like a stone so interest rates would have to rise and rise to keep it going as a currencey.
Hyper inflation would follow and he could then hope to inflate the debt away.
If this is his plan most of us could be doomed to a lifetime of poverty without wage increases to keep up with the inflation and imported goods we all have to buy costing a fortune.
For this country it is a recession like no other for we are no longer self sufficient on a large enough scale to rely on British made goods.
Some price to pay for keeping bad banks afloat and an even bigger gamble for the future of our grandchildren.
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Could it be that Mr Byrne has found a way to recoup the £40 Billion lost every year to the Treasury, through the treacherous activities of the tax avoiders/evaders, and their crooked financial and legal advisers?
It would certainly go a long way in helping to solve the deficit problem
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#87
Ah,but Gordon Brown dosnt give a tinkers cuss for our grandchildren,he
dosnt care a fig for our children,and dosnt give a monkeys about me and thee.
In his strange little world its Gordon first,Gordon second and Gordon third.
Then its the Labour party,and lastly country.
He is now in every way putting himself above party,and most treacherously
putting party above the wellbeing of this country.
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"Growth alone will not resolve an increasingly complicated debt equation. Preserving debt affordability at levels consistent with AAA ratings will invariably require fiscal adjustments of a magnitude that, in some cases, will test social cohesion," said Pierre Cailleteau, the chief author.
... and what do we hear from our politicians ? Delusional fantasy economics purely designed to hide the looming disaster. I hesitated to mention my own fears that what awaits us could easily lead to civil unrest, but when such suggestions are coming from reputable sources, then it's about time our politicians started getting their brains and mouthes fucnctioning with some respect to reality. If they don't, I see no merit in listening to what they say at all.
Facts - public services will be cut - taxes will rise (whether it be by direct means or by massively increased energy costs) - without quantitative easing our economy will collapse - quantitative easing will have to stop sooner rather than later. All will be revealed after the election no matter who wins.
Any questions ?
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Re -86
Indeed mike-jay. Whenever I see Hatton Neil Kinnocks 1985 speech to the Labour Conference always comes to mind. I suspect it remains as true of Derek Hatton and his ilk now as it did then.
"I'll tell you what happens with impossible promises. You start with far-fetched resolutions. They are then pickled into a rigid dogma, a code, and you go through the years sticking to that, outdated, misplaced, irrelevant to the real needs, and you end in the grotesque chaos of a Labour council -- a Labour council -- hiring taxis to scuttle round a city handing out redundancy notices to its own workers . . .
I am telling you, no matter how entertaining, how fulfilling to short-term egos -- you can't play politics with people's jobs and with people's services or with their homes."
And I didnt even see todays DP lol.
On another note I see the Govt has dropped plans for a Dog Insurance Scheme.
Is this the shortest government initiative ever? Maybe others can think of another one? This govt gets more shambolic minute by minute.
If that isnt joke enough try this for barmy. Health fascism gone potty.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1258418/Council-bans-ice-cream-vans-trading-outside-schools-encourage-unhealthy-eating.html?ITO=1490
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gomer @ 90
No questions, as such - I agree with the thrust of your analysis, the outlook anyway (I don't blame Brown as much as you do). Have a supplementary observation, though. What's that? Well just that the timetable we set for getting on top of the deficit/debt is key. The disruption and hardship can be ameliorated by taking the long view. By not panicking. For me, we've just seen an enormous rupture in the global capitalist system - a truly historic event - and if we can get back to something resembling a healthy status quo in around 25 years, then that's a result.
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Gomer
Whilst not as pessimistic as you I agree with the general thrust of your post - we need to face up to the realities that a combination of tax increases and cuts will be unavoidable.
The incoming party needs to put their plans into action right after the election before they start getting obsessed about re-election.
Can the electorate take their medicine? - Possibly if the cuts are proportionate not punitive..
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Piles of rubbish.
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We agree on some parts - but I could never do anything but blame Gordon for pretending to be a Socialist. I accept that Cameron or Brown doesn't greatly matter. It's rather like selecting what plane you'd prefer to crash in to put it bluntly. The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse won't care much when they come calling.
The universities are begging for money again, and appear to have developed the same appetite as banks. Their lack of funds can be judged by the salaris of their vice chancellors and in my closest city they're in a building frenzy.
Gordon has expanded capitalism from not just enshrining bankers as a protected species, but he has also created a new capitalist elite among government funded bureaucracy. It's quite frightening to watch the formation of Gordonomics founded on an ever flowing cascade of taxpayer money. Unfortunately no economy can survive on such a basis, and it's going to end in tears.
I feel confident that our government owned banks are only held back from making huge redundancies knowing the outrage it would cause, but that leaves a conundrum that their return to profits will be much delayed, especially if the economy is going to take a turn for the worse.
We've had good warning of what's looming ahead of us, and any shocks are likely to result in the cork popping and a rush for the exits.
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" Gordon has expanded capitalism from not just enshrining bankers as a protected species, but he has also created a new capitalist elite among government funded bureaucracy"
A good point, a new elite of overpaid people at the heads of councils, schools, universities and in the NHS to name a few has been created - throwing money at services has not yielded the return it should have and the government are certainly culpable on that front.
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Don't forget either that Gordon is the King of indirect taxation, and that the massive increase in energy bills coming our way will represent another method of raising taxation in a way that Gordon will attempt to claim is not his responsibility. Next winter is likely to see quite a rise in deaths caused by many elderly being unable to afford to heat themselves if the winte is anything like the last one. The cost of petrol is already forecast to reach new peaks this year and that will ratchet up inflation.
"Labour’s tax policy appeared mired in confusion on Tuesday after Alistair Darling’s deputy admitted that taxes may well have to rise if the party wins the election."
The major parties have started their election campaigns talking complete and utter tosh, and I would criticise Cameron for allowing himself to meekly follow Gordon into fantasy. Splurging money on Danish wind turbines and rainforest bio-fuel isn't going to bolster the economy, and won't do much to generate electricity either. There won't be the money available to invent new eco-jobs, not when the NHS, police and other services are cut.
The government's figures, which represent some pretty ambitious wishful thinking, also factor in an economic recovery along with the ubiquitous economy savings - which usually have the substance of the Ark of the Covenant, always sought but never found.
Forget the arguments over AGW, the sight of Gordon's suntanned little face in Cancun at the start of winter could demonstrate a second bad choice of location, and bad timing too. If there's ever a good time to lose an election, this could be it. You could be forgiven for believing that's just what Gordon and Cameron are trying to do.
VAT on food ? - not before the election anyway.
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91 SuperAngry
Yes, the dog thing has bitten the biter. Perhaps somewhat belatedly the govt realized that announcing measures in the run up to an election to penalize every dog owner in the country to stop the dross of society misusing dogs was not a vote winner.
That they didnt see this before says so much.
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Ref 59 Leuctrid
Though perhaps I've counted something in twice.
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Andrew,
so the unemployment figures have been released.
People must really understand what is actually happening with regard to many people laid off in the fifties and sixties. They are leaving with early retirement packages, Job Seekers Allowance is means tested, there is little point signing on, and goiung through a very humiliating experience, for nothing. So many do not sign on, they just try to get as best they can.
One social cost which many do not understand is that many marriages are now coming under threat. People have really not been living together, they work, so have separate lives. Now they are in each others pockets, and many relationships are under very severe threat. The so called expert economists really do not have a clue.
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Andrew,
this is from our local newspaper and deserves wider dissemination:
'TEACHERS in Cornwall will be the first in Britain to be trained in how to spot pupils who could be terrorists, it has been revealed.
Civil rights groups have hit out at Cornwall Council after it announced plans to stage a £3,500 conference, pencilled in for this summer'.
This is un der the the banner of I don't believe this. I mean teachers in Cornwall! This is surely totally inappropriate, how many potential terrorists, and we are told by the Prime Minister that we have to fear terror from Afghanistan and Pakistan, he told us that and continues to tell us that. So we are not under threat from Muslims per se, just people who originate from Afghanistan and Pakistan. Now if Brown and his fearful goveernment went to Cornwall how many people from that region does he think that there will be.
What will happen will be that there will be some announcement in the future saying that this scheme is working in regions of our country, and it must be expanded. Now also I can only wonder who will giving the teaching of looking out for terrorists, surely not people from Afghanistan and Pakistan, who have fled to this country to escape terror, and are now seeking refugee status, and their new job will be teaching Cornish children how to look out for terrorists. I can imagine the immigarnt Sloanes who come down to Rock being kept under surveillance to see if they may become terrorists.
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101 Catch22
Apart from its Orwellian overtones it wont work anyway.
Like those ads with various voices talking about blacked out windows and lots of fertilizer etc. Trying to encourage us all to become spies. Likle the police in London stopping tourists taking photos! Hardly believable that but true.
So with all this pressure on us to adopt a modern variation of "reds under the bed", how do the authorites do themselves ? Not very well if the West Midlands Police Helicpter debacle is anything to go by. One night a chap on a motorbike cut a hole in the airport fence and torched the helicopter. They had good security didnt they. They found the burned out bike but not the arsonist.
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Andrew,
the cost of Adfghanistan in terms of lives, injuries, and economically will not go away. We are throwing billions into the country, the whole of the coalition is just throwing money down the drain. We are being bled dry by our 'enemies'. We cannot afford to go on much longer like this, and they know it. It is no different to Verdun in the Great War, we are all in the mincer, only it is more money, than lives which will defeat us.
Consider that the largest development in Afghanistan until recently was something known as the Helmand and Arghband Valley Authority, which was a dam complex, begun in 1950 with American aid and loans. Are we really surprised as to why the Americans are going into Helmand, that is why they have had to negotiate all the canals with some difficulty, they were American canals, and the Americans see dams as being the solution to everything, like the Hoover dam was in the Great Depression.
According to the historian Arthur Schlesinger the projects were part of a hearts and minds advance, they were a 'weapon which, if properly employed, might outbid all the social ruthlessness of the communists for the support oif the peoples of Asia'.
What I hate with a vengeance is the comments every wednesday from the PM, 'brave and courageous' 'the best' 'we owe them a debt of honour' 'they will never be forgotten' yeah right, could Brown even read out their names if he didn't have them listed on a scrap of paper then he would not even be able to remember their names.
This will be one of the last PMQs of this totally abject failure of a parliament, it has been a disgrace for all of its life, but there must be an announcement that in future there will be no further reading out of names at PMQs, I don't know how it started, and it is an absolute charade. It is not the right and proper place, what with events which follow, questions about the economy being met by derisive tones, and a pathetic Speaker who really has lost all forms of control, his interruptions, 'people listening want to hear the answer to the question' or 'people actually want to hear the question' just after they have read out the names of the dead. They will not be remembered, they are as dead as this parliament, this government, this era, will be looked back on by historians as one of the worst the people have had to suffer, and endure.
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Andrew,
I listened intently to your programme this lunch time, as well as PMQs and am surprised that others have not picked up on the Brown and the patriot card.
Now firstly it was wonderful to hear Brown admit that he has written to Chilcot, soon to be Lord Chilcot if people listened to Brown answering the question, but that is just an aside. Now in respect of the 'fight' now taking place between the government, the Unite Union, and the conservatives, Brown referred to talking, that somehow that could resolve the issue. I totally disagree. Take the war in Iraq, and the subsequent occupation, and now Afghanistan. It is the patriot card which is preventing real dsicussion about the situation. It is because the government supports the soldiers, sort of, and any criticism of the government is then turned into an attack on the military.
I hope that the labour MPs who said that the former leaders of our army who were making their concerns over Browns comments to Chilcot will now receive an apology over the comments that the only reason why the generals said what they did was because they were Tories. For Brown to say that the solution to the conflict in BA is to talk, shows just how out of touch he is. He was the paymaster for a government which has actually gone to wars rather than talk! Angry you bet I am.
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103
I would also add the ongoing cost in medical treatments and recuperation for the wounded some of whom will need 24/7 care for life. Medical advances particularly in the battle field have meant that soldiers now stand a good chance of surviving compared to say in the Falklands war. Some horrendous injuries suffered in recent battles lead to recuperation which if inflicted in the Falklands war would have meant certain death.
The Sunday Times magazine reported on injured US soldiers a couple of years ago showing the advances in medical knowledge, where in one example a US marine had lost a quarter of his skull and still stayed alive. A news report in the UK noted that both Hereford and Poole were awash with dozens of SAS and SBS troopers with at least one missing limb.
It is not just the medical cost to support these men in the years to come, but also the military cost to train up these soldiers in the first place. Firstly they are the elite "the best of the best", and in a sense irreplaceable. Unless standards are lowered it will be diffcult to replace them and strategically the UK Armed Forces cann ill afford this as the remit focuses on a Rapid Response Force where SAS/SBS would provide a prominent role.
I fear that if an "event" happened on home soil the military response would be totally inadequate as we are over-stretched. The sabre rattling from Argentina is not helped by the weak Obama administration not having the guts to say no to the Argies. I do not understand how the "Special Relationship" managed to get themselves in such a pickle - we are allies everywhere in the world except in Latin America? Barmy.
I agree absolutely on PMQs. It has become a theatrical sideshow that is now largely irrelevant. Yet for 80 percent of MPs it is the one and only time that they can say they are doing their job. Totally pathetic, and do not get me started on the pygmy speaker. Reading out the names of the fallen at the start of PMQs is totally inapropriate - a spokesperson from the MoD could carry out this sombre task with far more dignity and gravitas than in the Commons. I believe thsi was the case during the Falklands conflict but as PMQs were not televised then, I cannot recollect if at PMQs names were read out.
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So no-one from the labour party would stand up for the worker who wants to go to work and not be bullied by the unions into not crossing the picket lines.
There could be ugly scenes if and when the strike does go ahead which will remind us of the scenes of Whopping and the miners' strikes of the eighties.
This is the end of Nulabour RIP and a start of a union dominated socialist party.
Let's hope Vince Cable and Nick Clegg manage to find a bunker if there is a hung parliament.
So they are using their influence to parachute their own members into many of the vacated labour seats. Well if the Tories can't capitalise on this then they aren't even trying.
Many of us will never forget how the unions just about wrecked this country in the past and it is not welcome news that once again they could plunge us back into the dark ages.
On another matter in today's PM's question time. Did I hear John Redwood ask what had happened to 700 billion pounds which had disappeared off the books of RBS?
A question which Brown of course did not answer. An answer which it appears that John Redwood already knows. Very Interesting!
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ECB @ 105
"Reading out the names of the fallen at the start of PMQs is totally inappropriate"
I agree. It has a mechanical "going through the motions" feel to it. Can understand why it's done but wish they'd do it some other way.
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Anyone believing people in government after the past two years is either very dull or not listening. They have yet to admit that they were made aware of the bankers empty box financing of loans well in advance of the collapse and did nothing about it. Maybe some sort of apology is due the public. Now they continue to kow-tow to the bankers who are living off of future taxes and stolen retirement accounts. So compassionate not to add additional taxes, after bailing out the bankers. Real character....or lack thereof...
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Andrew,
with regard to PMQs yesterday Brown as usual read out the names of the dead, resulting form his 'war against terror in Afghanistan' he also later in the session was asked about childbirth deaths, namely 500,000 and then seemed to suggest that the conservatives should not smile at this most serious question from a labour back bencher. He then failed miserably to name the 500,000 who have died. This is an appalling insult to the dead, why did he not name them, if they are so important.
Also one has to point out that overpopulation is now seen as a serious issue, and yet what really should happen is of course that there really must be more birth control, there really must. In the meantime Brown fails to understand that these people may well survive, and then become a terrorist, or even worse be subject to being killed by British or our allied soldiers. He really is flawed in his philosophical thinking.
It is as if bin Laden was caught after a firefight, and severely injured, but who is then saved by the medical profession, so that he can then be executed, after a fair trial of course.
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109 Go back to sleep. Or tell it to NHS Direct.
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2. At 6:48pm on 11 Mar 2010, obangobang wrote:
Clearly Mr Byrne is much cleverer than I, but just one question:....
And where does the other GBP89bn come from after the fourth year?
Now that is not fair obangobang, you clearly have a calculator that works!! Surely you do not expect a straight answer from anyone in this Government do you, or the numbers to add up?
By racking up this enormous debt that they can't even seem to add up this Government have effectively stolen £16,000 from each and every one of us over the last 13 years. If I did this, I would probably be jailed, maybe Brown and Darling should be too?
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Today's DP show: John Pienaar didn't sound like he was on the same page as Nick Robinson on the Ashcroft story. Clearly not as excitable as NR.
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Lord Ashcroft keeps popping up in the news, although according to today's DP there's little of substance there for his critics. There might be questions to answer about how much he can influence Tory policy, but the simple answer might be to wait until non-doms are banned from the HoL after the next election.
What is of more concern is the influence of the Unite union on national policy. It has been said that 108 Labour MPs are members of Unite, and more than an additional 60 are seeking to be selected as candidates for election. So, in the extreme case, about half of the members of a governing party could belong to this union.
This raises the question of whose interests they are representing. Are their loyalties primarily to their union, or to all of their constituents? Is there a clear conflict of interests?
It was interesting that Gordon Brown (and Lord Adonis) strongly condemned the proposed BA strike, but could not bring himself to condone Unite members crossing the picket lines if they chose to work. Was this an indication of the mindset of the possible majority of Labour MPs after the next election? Does it reflect the views of the electorate?
And Charlie Whelan was quick to point out that the Unite donations to Labour consisted of many small political levies from union members. But is that meant to imply that all of those contributors will vote Labour in May? Questionable. The psychology of people opting out of a certain course of action (such as paying the political levy), rather than opting in, is well known. That is why there have been calls for the opt out to be introduced for organ donations.
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Re :113
It is co-incidental mike-jay that I today received a leaflet from the NHS explaining the Care Records system.
Included in this is an opt out option. Whats the catch? In order to opt out you have to go online to print the opt out form off.
So for those who do not have access to or do not know how to use a computer (yes they do exist) there is effectively NO opt out option.
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Andrew,
it is a shame that Brown is not wagging his tongue or releasing information about the treatment of our enemy once they have been detained, either by our very brave and coyurageous soldiers, or our less than perfect allies, with their extra-ordinary rendition, and enhanced interrogation techniques.
The problem is that medals are presented, brave people honoured, and yet we still have the evidence being given to the Baha Mousa Inquiry. The trouble with Chilcot is that there would seem to be absolutely no interest in questioning anybody on the actions of our soldiers during the war, and the subsequent aftermath.
It is not good enough for Brown to just give his 'evidence' then like Campbell has had to clarify their comments by writing notes to the inquiry, because of course they have to sign their 'evidence' after it has been given. Brown could not have signed his comments without clarification. Once seen in writing then it will be checked, and it is a permanent record.
It will now be impossible for Brown to be recalled because of course Chilcot has said that he will suspend his hearings once a general election has been called, for political reasons of course.
Andrew, the problems with wagging tongues is not only on the economic front, it is of great interest to those of us who are ashamed about what was allowed to happen in Iraq, I just ask people to look at the testimonies given at the Baha Mousa inquiry, it shows how lax training was, and what was allowed to happen.
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Andrew,
whilst there is continued interest in Ashcroft and his status, and the issues raised by Mandelson, I would like a review of the two resignations by Mandelson.
One I believe was over a mortgage application, and the other over passport applications, by an Indian business man. Now I know that these events were some time in the past, but so is Ashcroft. I consider that with the problems over the banks, and inappropriate mortgages, and the domicile status of Ashcroft, that these two resignations by Mandelson are suitable for reinvestigation.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Andrew,
now I know, and you will know as well about what has been happening at the Baha Mousa Inquiry, which has received very little coverage by the BBC, what with our soldiers being very brave and courageous, and they also seem to get some well deserved medals, for their actions in Afghanistan. However, the problem is Iraq, and the coverage now being given to the amount of money being received by the charity which is Tony Blair, who together with the agreement of parliament took this country to war in Iraq.
It has been reported in the Guardian about evidence given:
'In devastating evidence to an official inquiry, Lieutenant Colonel Nicholas Mercer described the way Iraqi detainees were intimidated and hooded by British soldiers as "repulsive". He said that 10 days after the invasion in March 2003 he saw 20 or 30 detainees lined up with sandbags on their heads.
He was shocked, he said, adding that it was "a bit like seeing pictures of Guantánamo Bay for the first time".
Mercer said he had had a "massive row" with the commander of the Queens Dragoon Guards about the army's legal obligations under the Geneva conventions and the European Convention on Human Rights. He had walked out of a meeting between British officials and the International Committee of the Red Cross after being told by a "political adviser" to keep his mouth shut, he added.
Mercer's repeated protests about the unlawful treatment of Iraqis in British custody was so unwelcome within the Ministry of Defence that his boss, Martin Hemming, head of its legal service, threatened to report him to the Law Society, he said'.
Now if it is found that these allegations are well founded, then there is every reason to believe that the treatment of detainees is not torture as such but breaks many of the rules about how detainees should be treated. It is no wonder that Brown has broken his promises to release papers showing how detainees should be treated. This is a disgraceful episode, and should be understood in the context of the detention by Pakistan of Taliban leaders as is now being reported.
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Just when you thought that the politcal classes in this country could not sink any lower, this grubby story in the Mail relates more of the cash grabbing Blair:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1259030/Tony-Blairs-secret-dealings-South-Korean-oil-firm-UI-Energy-Corp.html
Blair has desperately tried to keep this hush hush. It is not clear how much he was paid and even less is known about what he gave to this South Korean oil company in terms of oil concessions in Iraq. Considering that neither the British Army or UK Aid did not exactly cover themselves in glory in Iraq, was this whole excursion into Iraq all about personal financial gain for the former PM?
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Back to the topic...
Will Byrne set wags tonguing? One hopes not.
btw Catch, has Exxon had the knock on the door? Been taken downstairs?
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The government appear to be operating in the form, not of a worker's collective, but more an assemblage of warlords who each give off different signals about forthvoming spending and taxation.
Finally Lord Mandelson appears to be leading the government towards reality, but isn't it strange that Gordon, who has always trodden a separate path, isn't involved in this new change of direction ? There isn't so much a government policy, as a variety of options which can be chosen from according to your preferences.
This must be confusing to the Tories, who have always meekly matched Labour's moves, as they now present a variety of options. Again, the whole economic argument between the major parties is impossible to divine from all this electioneering.
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bg @ 120 - that is a very good line - crashes into my blogging top 10.
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Isn't it marvellous. Not only do MP's live in a separate economic environment they also functon under a set of laws designed especially to overlook their excesses, and now it seems that a similar arrangement applies to the Catholic clergy.
How nice it is to be respectable - then you don't have to be respectable any more.
You wouldn't trust an MP with your wallet, a priest with your child and now it is claimed that Unison and the government operate a monetary merry-go-round which is the financial equivalent of perpetual motion at the taxpayer's expense. We're only a step away from the Berlusconi style of government where we are governed by whatever relights the party leader's faltering libido.
Sorry Ann Widdecombe but your lot are going to have to pretend a lot better than they do now for me to reciprocate a pretence That I have any respect for them. It appears to be that by nature politicians are less deserving of respect than the average person, so kid yourself as much as you like and let us in on some more of their grubby secrets. If you wish to assert that you had no inkling of what goes on, then perhaps you aren't qualified to be an MP.
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120 TheBlameGame
They are coming for us one at a time
Exxon2 first, PortcullisGate today, who is next ?
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15 flicks
Nick's site minders have packed up and gone home, usual Friday crack.
Was going through this blog again and spotted your link. Glad I did.
I had forgotten all about the Tangs since Rubicon.How long ago was that ? Didnt know they were still going.
Thank you.
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#122 saga
What are the other nine?
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@ 126 - they are all yours, Mike, but I won't list them ... don't want you getting all big headed - hey, so the Conservatives proposing a bank tax! - I liked that when Obama said it, so (just to show I'm a fair and reasonable person) I will say here and now that I also like it coming from David Cameron - need to check the details obviously but, just based on the headline, well done you Tories.
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#127 saga
The Tories are continuing to put their foot in it. A bank tax would simply be passed on to us, the customers, in the form of sneaky increased charges and sneaky reduced interest rates for savers. If Cameron wants to take this route, he needs to devise a way of avoiding the pitfalls. There's no sign, yet, that he's really thinking things through.
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I agree that a bank tax achieves nothing. Labour were even making plans to use the money elsewhere, so that it wouldn't even represent any form of protection against bank failures. It would just be another indirect tax. The major reform needed is to separate casino banking from the other parts of the bank. Until then, banks are basking in an informal government guarantee that would cost them a fortune if they weren't operating outside the normal laws of commerce. Banks appear to have achieved stately home status and can do as they please
Labour's pension plans appear to be an over expensive rip-off, and I imagine that they'd cut the state pension and leave people with an expensive and useless alternative. The electorate are stupid and should make MP's sign on to any pension arrangemnt they try to force on them. What do you think the chances of that are ?
Unfortunately logic doesn't come in to politics and the current union action is likely to be enough to dish Labour's chances, though winning this election is likely to be a poison chalice. Having said that, if the unions make themselves very unpopular, it may be all Cameron needs to meet the almost inevitable future union unrest in a no nonsense fashion.
It would be ironic if the unions hand Cameron an election victory and the excuse to meet future trade union action resolutely, but then Gordon has little use for unions other than as cash cows to milk.
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I listened with incredulity to Ed Balls on Any Questions trying to defend his hero (for now), G Brown, over the cuts in defence spending that were revealed. He followed the usual line of "10% real increase over the last 10 years compared with 27% decrease during the later Tory years".
The best he could come up with to balance the costs of Iraq and Afghanistan (continuous intense warfare over the last nine years) were the IRA (low key in comparison) and the first Gulf War (short), at the same time ignoring the effects of the ending of the Cold War.
And by his own implication, the 10% increase was starting from a low, peacetime base line.
Some of these politicians really do take the electorate for idiots. Let's hope the voters retaliate in the best way possible.
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Nationalisation would be better, this is true. Still, a new tax is a new tax and that always goes down well with me. Can't be having it just passed on to the customer though, I completely agree with that point. Defeats the object, if the object is to claw back the cost of state support. Which brings us back to the N word, I suppose. For retail banking (including residential mortgages). Way to go.
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131. sagamix wrote:
"Still, a new tax is a new tax and that always goes down well with me."
You're not Polly Toynbee are you, s??
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#132 Blame
He sounds more like Gordon Brown to me.
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Toynbee's one of my favourite commentators, I must admit. Like her I'm a believer (generally speaking) in a high tax, high spend model. Think this leads (or it should lead) to a better society - defining "better" as more equal and more civilised. Public affluence private squalor - so long as there is no squalor. Course it depends on what the money raised gets spent on. If it gets frittered away on ... oo let me think ... on invading foreign countries, or on massive computer systems which don't work, or on bribing private contractors to take assets off the public balance sheet, then this goal can be compromised.
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Me at 43 & 99
The baseline - the gov noticed something about this in the defence figures and some sort of 'mistake', so they're obviously listening to me. And I've had an email to say so.
I expect they'll make me a Labour peer next. Little Lord Leuctrid. Very transparent.
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That would be fine if you considered Gordon to be competent at squandering the taxes he reaps, but usually he hoses it into the pockets of all the abnkers infesting his party. No wonder Mandelson is such a popular party guest with merchant bankers.
Whether Gordon paid 20 per cent or 50 per cent more is irrelevants, wars produce dead people, and when you get involved in one, you pay the price, whatever that is. Gordon doesn't earn gold stars for wartime accounting. That whole argument is bogus, and avoids the more central issue that lives have been spent for no purpose and money squandered for years to come for what appears little more than making a point.
What on earth the political love affair with the internet is about seems to represent another delusion of middle class socialists who believe that the elderly and underslasses spend their lives browsing online shopping sites. If Gordon thinks the elderly poor and impoverished are going to pay for high speed broadband access ahead of food and heating only shows how out of touch Gordon has become.
Lord Mandelson appears to be having a lot of dinner party invites from another media mogul judging by his fixation with downloads and high speed access. The costs are ridiculous and it seems more like some intent to put political weight behind a marketing scheme, but that's the way of our politicians.
Of course the Tories wonder after Gordon's bright ideas with little intent other than to match his moves, no matter how daft they are.
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@134
But Polly is no friend of Brown's she has despaired about him over the last 6 months and was very much in favour of him being ousted.
.. and isn't she allegedly the Tory's heroine??? - in her book she describes society as a caravan moving across a desert. All may move forward, but how far behind do the poor at the back have to fall before they cease to be part of the same caravan at all?
A sentiment which I agree with - any society is judged by how the needy and poor are treated ...
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And so was I! ... in favour of a change in leader. Will happen after the election I suppose (assuming a Lab loss) and D. Mil looks like a pretty strong favourite right now.
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Darling says that MP's should fall under a new code of conduct now that more MP's have been trapped in another 'cash for influence' sting.
Darling, my darling, there's no need, there are already laws to deal with corruption in office, only you don't like to use them as it would put MP's, found guilty of such crimes, in prison. The problem is that MP's operate above the law and cling together to defend their own corruption. It seems inevitable that MP's will remain corrupt as long as those around them form a defensice circle, instead of insisting on formal police investigations, when allegations are made.
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#137 menin
Few would disagree with your last sentence, but the crucial question is how a fair and compassionate society can be created. The caravan crossing the desert is an interesting analogy, so what steps are needed to ensure that the poor at the back keep up? Presumably the caravan has to move more slowly, or a means has to be found to speed up the lagging poor.
In crude terms, maybe the overall slowing down would reflect the old Labour approach, while the speeding up of those behind might reflect the right wing Tory approach. A combination of the two might relate more to the stated ideals of new Labour or the more central thinking in the Tory party.
Looked at like this, the secret probably lies in achieving the in-between balance, as the other two extremes may be more prone to 'tipping over the edge'. I don't think the caravan analogy gets us any farther than this, but it might help to clarify the choice at the coming election. Which party is most likely to get the balance right?
Regarding Toynbee, I quite like listening to her opinions on the DP, etc, but I'm always suspicious, to some extent, of the true commitment of wealthy left wingers like her, people such as the late Lord Longford, his niece Harriet, the former Anthony Wedgewood-Benn, and various others. They're all for equality and egalitarian tax-and-spend policies, but they can afford them. You do wonder if it's just an interesting hobby rather than a true vocation.
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mike @ 140
"maybe the overall slowing down would reflect the old Labour approach, while the speeding up of those behind might reflect the right wing Tory approach."
A forgetting about those in the rear is more the right wing Tory approach. Maybe they speed up, maybe they don't. Their lookout.
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To view Gordon as Socialist is to draw an anachronistic view of a party that sold its principles to banks long ago. Many of the environmental groups have sold out to those who can make better monetary use of their reputations. That being the case it's little wonder that MP's could be published alongside a note of their own monetary valuations.
No doubt that MP's will whinge about entrapment but the ease with which MP' can be lured to lay aside their principles is laughable. Even if Parliament drew up a code of conduct, the only certainty is that it would be toothless and so full of holes it would merely allow the 'gravy train' to roll along as before. It's amusing to see that Parliament is so incompetent at drafting legislation, especially that designed to stamp out its own midemeanours, which ought to be one thing at which it should be competent.
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#141 saga
You are deliberately ignoring the failure of new Labour, in 13 years, to reduce the gap between rich and poor - in fact, they've increased it. Your view is as superficial as new Labour's promises.
My reference to right wing Tory approach was necessarily a simplification, but it related to the theory that increasing the wealth of the nation as a whole - by encouraging wealth creating businesses and reducing taxes - would enable improvements in the welfare of the poorest to be achieved.
The centralist view of balance is not a coincidence, it is a logical assessment, which is why it has been adopted, with minor variations, by all of the major parties. Hence the commonly heard complaint that 'they're all the same, there's no difference between them'.
One thing that has been long discredited is the 'high tax/high spend' philosophy of failed old Labour.
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No. Sag 134 MWC137 are more or less right, basic human morals.
Everything else rubbish waffle.
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#142
Over at Order-Order Guido has called it quite appropriately a "Parliament of Whores". We all know what they are, we just do not yet know the price!
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I see from the Beeb News that there are some interesting parallels over the water in France.
The French are no longer enchanted by Sarkozy but the are equally unimpressed with the alternatives.
Not only a shared recession but a joint awakening to the fact that all the current crop of politicians are not worthy ?
Fancy us and the French having something in common !
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mike-jay 143
I agree with your post. Yet a lot of the public still say the Conservative message on the economy is not clear. If the Conservative message is not clear to the electorate I cannot see that the Labour one is any clearer. Darling this morning on Andrew Marr seemed to have moved much more to the Conservative side of the argument. His ideas on how growth can be achieved in the Global setting is much more in line with the Conservatives ideas. Which is that taxation must be kept lower to attract business into the Private sector because of competition from other Countries. This would be the only way to achieve growth. He seemed to signal his regret that he must impose the 50p tax and that investors would leave Britain if taxation remained high.
Labour seems to be dividing up into two distinct camps, on the one hand you have people like Darling with his ideas regarding the economy. In which case it seems Miliband would become leader as he represents a more moderate Labour position. On the other hand you have the left-wing side which is represented by the Unions who would like to see high taxation and an assault on business in the private sector, in which case Ed Balls would become leader.
Of course neither of these two people can become leader of the Labour Party, unless the present incumbent Brown decides to go and he has signalled he has no intention of doing so, no matter what the outcome of the election.
I find more than ever that the Labour Party seem to lack direction and a common vision. However it has to be said that the Conservatives, if the polls are to be believed, despite Labours terrible record on the economy, the armed forces, the gap between rich and poor growing, social mobility going down and many more issues, do not seem to be making progress in winning the argument either.
One has to assume therefore, that maybe it is the publics vision that has changed.
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xTunbridge 124
I think we can only let our feelings be known over Exxon2 to the BBC and Andrew Neil, that seems to be all we can do.
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#147 sc
The problem with the Tories is that they persistently make themselves look foolish by rushing out ideas and policies that have not been properly thought out.
Typical examples:
Hammond on the Andrew Marr show trying to explain why his statement of a few weeks ago on a levy on banks had now changed. He originally said that it must be by international agreement, but now Cameron is saying they will go ahead without that agreement.
Grayling making glaring mistakes, first not realising that a retired general was going to advise the Tories, not Labour, and then getting his crime figures in a mess.
Various Tory spokespersons promising first 'swingeing cuts in expenditure' and then pulling back to say that they wouldn't be so bad, after all.
Letwin creating unrest in the Tory party by putting out an election strategy that was 'too academic' and probably over the heads of many voters.
Confusion and poorly presented arguments over the proposed 'marriage allowance' in the tax system.
Incompetent handling of the Ashcroft question - and insufficient questions being asked about non-doms in other parties.
Weakness over the promised referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. The decision not to go ahead was understandable, but Cameron should have made this course of action clear right at the outset. They have also failed to hammer home the fact that only the government was in a position to honour the manifesto promises made by all of the main paries.
And there are numerous other examples of failing to engage the brain before operating the mouth.
It's no wonder that the polls have narrowed.
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mike @ 143
"You are deliberately ignoring the failure of new Labour"
Not really. Wasn't talking about NL, was talking about right wing Toryism. But since you mention it, NL have been too centrist for my taste ... pandered to Middle England a little too much. Pandered to the City WAY too much. Do it right next time, hopefully. 2013?
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Hey Susan,
The new bank tax from the Tories. I like it and you dislike it (I guess, since you disliked it from Obama), thus we have me supporting and you opposing (!) a Tory policy. Has to be a first.
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gomer @ 142
"a party (Lab) that sold its principles to banks long ago."
Sadly, they did exactly that. The NL project was essential in order to get elected, but there was no need to cosy up to the City to anything like the extent they did. Talk about your chickens, talk about your roosting, talk about your coming homes.
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The problem with Labour New or otherwise is it no longer knows who it represents of what it stands for.
It is increasingly irrelevant and the sooner it is allowed to whither and die the better we all shall be.
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153 SuperAngry
For a long time it has represented its own self interests with Brown perhaps also being a bit power crazy. Looking after the electorate hardly features whilst they all feather their own nests. A few sacrificial lambs have been thrown in the expenses scandal.
And they do very nicely out of it afterwrds, Blair 20m from some Korean outfit, nice.
Property portfolios by the shedload.
I see todays revelations that they try to do nicely out of it whilst they are there, wasnt Byers caught out before ? I seem to remember the then BBC correspondent saying his pants were on fire!
Not that the Tories are any better.
A pox on all of them I say.
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The problem is that Gordon's experience is as Chancellor, and I feel he just allowed himself to be guided (led by the nose) by banks who offered him the dream of a boom, without mentioning that it was founded on quicksand, and I feel we're doing the same again. Undoubtedly Gordon needs the co-operation and investment of banks but he hasn't seen through the drawback that bank led programmes are, not unexpectedly, based on quick profit making followed by collapse.
I smell banks all over the current AGW carbon trading schemes, and this is way beyond the scope and size of the complex securities scandal that destroyed the world economy so recently, and we still haven't recovered from that debacle.
In all honesty the way the carbon trading schemes operate is so similar to the operation of feudal grants and benefits doled out to benefactors and pals, it almost appears that our parliament is trying to roll back centuries of political freedom and replace it with feudal patronage. It is a wonderfully obfuscated instrument to obfuscate the doling out of taxpayer funds to whonsoever is deemed worthy. There was a recent scandal whereby the Hungarian government was handing out a form of Carbon Credits twice, raising the real question as to what's CO2 go to do with it ?
If MP's can't be trusted with their expenses, then setting them up as the governors of such a flawed system is quite absurd. To hear MP's trying to convince us that they deserve our respect is as pathetic as it is misguided. You earn respect, you don't plead for it.
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149
'The problem with the stories is they consistently make themselves look foolish by being rushed out etc etc'
You said it.
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Andrew,
may I humbly suggest that people take the opportunity to view the programme 'Requiem for Detroit' and consider that it could start happening here sooner than people realise. It should be seen as a case study in what can go wrong, when the economy goes bust.
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Well thank goodness the BA dispute has been resolved. The workers have got a 60 hour a week paydeal, lower hourly rate but better off overall, and combined with voluntary redundancies and those moving to better jobs anyway, everybody's happy. The workers are happy, the management is happy, I'm happy, and most importantly, my dear old Grandad is happy, who sadly we lost some time ago, but began the whole union process in the first place.
And the blithering on this website did not resolve anything.
Oh, it hasn't happened anyway.
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157
I think you ought to know this has already happened over here, and you are already living through that. And in America, other car cities have fared far worse than Detroit, a few years ago now, and we have some of their debt from the 'bad' mortgages that resulted from that. So the exchange rate can affect the amount of debt. See? And isn't it good news the debt has decreased!! So you can stop worrying now, safe in the knowledge that Mr Darling has his beady little eye on the whole thing. And I don't think your benefits are going to run out just yet.
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#159
Exactly hwat benefits are you referring to. I like many other people who provided for themselves are not in receipt of any benefits, none, none whatsoever. As for Darling!
Well he has a problem which I don't think others have had their tongues wagging on, well not yet anyway. It was his comment with regard to the sting on some labour MPs, who according to Darling, and I paraphrase 'should have just put down the receiver'. Is that the receiver for his black bakelite BT phone which he had to wait ten years to get back in the good old days.
The man who gave us the electorate will be 'pissed off' with the economic crisis, now gives us 'they should have put the receiver down' that really appeals to the young voter, bit like when people say things like I dialled the number, to dial a number it has to be on a dial, how many dial type phones have you seen lately.
It goes to show just how detached these politicians actually are, and as for no member of the government willing to come on to explain the situation, I am sure that the denials by Mandelson and Adonis should have a wider airing, I mean I would not be in Byers' shoes neither for love nor money.
It would seem that 'things' are conspiring against Brown and labour as we get ever closer to the general election, which must be called sooner, rather than later. Please put us out of our misery.
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mike-jay 149
I agree again Mike, especially the recent change by Hammond about a bank levy. Without Global agreement this would be a non starter. There are an awful lot of Countries which would like to have a Financial Capital. Britain would be handing away theirs if this levy only applied to some Countries and not others. However its possible Britain has lost its chance of keeping its Financial Capital anyway with the EU insisting on punitive regulation on the City of London. Brown did not secure an econmic position in the EU, therefore he has had to beg the EU to think again. Loss of the City for Britain would see many jobs and taxation disappear.
However it has to be said that after 13 years of poor Government, that the public would be saying anyone but Brown. That is really what I meant by maybe the public have changed vision. After all the biggest U turn was made by Brown himself. He first claimed that there would be no spending cuts at all and argued against Cameron at PMQs as such. Then Brown was forced to admit cuts would be made. Brown said there would be no spending cuts in 2010 and that Britain needed to continue with the stimulus. We know cuts are already being made and all stimulus being withdrawn. The cuts are perhaps being made in all the wrong areas with education being one. Whereas the overall addition to the public sector of jobs especially in the NHS are still increasing.
It is probably true to say the Conservatives have told the public far too much instead of setting out a simple message. The most effective one would surely have been lower taxation to encourage growth and a smaller state as their eventual ambition. After all Blair had told the electorate very little of what he would do, when he came to Government. When you are fighting an opposition that has been in Government 13 years and has the use of spin as its main weapon, reported by an ever willing media, a simple message is much better. Instead the Conservatives have been forced by pressure, to rush into policies which really they can only decide on if and when they come to Government. They do not have all the facts and figures on how bad Britains debt really is, therefore perhaps it would have been wise to have kept silent on detail.
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The only thing that the conservatives really have to say is we can do, and say, nothing until we actually see the books. However, I think that books have been cooked, and that the situation is much worse than anybody can ever contemplate.
As for the budget, what an absolute waste of time, mind you it will give the financial 'experts' pleanty to write about. The same experts who did not see the financial crisis coming, because they have all been through the same system, the professions need new blood, the accountants, the auditors, how can they justify their very existance, the failure of the accountancy profession is worse than anything the banks and the government have foisted on us.
Just look at the results of the elections in France, they are a disaster for that great friend of Brown, President Sarkozy, so we have to ask who will Brown blame this time, if he loses the labour party their overall majority in the commons.
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Catch22 157
Yes this is an interesting case study in what happens when reliance of income is put on one source. It applies to Britain I believe, in the sense that all the focus in the boom years was put on the City of London and its ability to generate taxation. The growth and generation of wealth through the private sector was not spread throughout Britain. The only really new industry that developed was also reliant on the credit provided by the banks and thus people spending. Manufacturing for instance has gone down in the last 13 years. When that one source of income then fails the rest falls with it.
However if Britain took a new direction as in the example set and began to lower taxation and rebalance the economy jobs could start to return. As things look at the moment I dont believe this will happen. The public is in denial, helped by Labour, about how bad things really are.
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Susan,
you are actually not correct I'm afraid. What should happen is that asset values must have been allowed to fall. It is the preservation of asset values which is the problem. The cost of entry must be brought down, it is protectionism at its worst.
With all the quantitative easing which has taken place all that has happened is that the money has gone into stocks and shares, and these are also artificially kept higher than they should be. As for the indices which measure these movements, the Dow Jones is a joke, and the FT 100 isn't representative of the British economy, mining shares, oil companies, and financial institutions.
The more I look at the Detroit programme the more I see into the future of our own collapsing economy. America today, Europe tomorrow.
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Andrew,
we now have the alternative to the 'economical with the truth', and the lie, now we have the retraction. I am sure that all the people who have listened to the Chilcot inquiry will now hope that Brown will issue a retraction over his comments, much better than an apology, which he actually hasn't given.
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Andrew,
I have just looked at the timetable for the Chilcot inquiry and have noticed that there will be no wagging tongues at that one. However, what I have noticed is that to the economical with the truth, the lie, and the retraction, can now be added the clarification. Brown has sent his letter to Chilcot which really does clarify the 'evidence' which he gave at an earlier hearing to Chilcot.
It does seem a shame that we also miss other contributors to your blog, so we should also add the censored, and the moderated, or the breaches an injunction. What do others have to say as we approach the sensitivity of a general election, what with your blog being the most intelligent, and influential blog in the ether.
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Andrew,
I thought that I would listen to Brown speech which he made on Sunday on the upcoming budget, this is available to all those who can't sleep on the Number 10 website, very nice and bedside manner.
Now let me say what I interpreted the PM as saying, and I paraphrase. Recently, Brown gave an interview to the media and in that interview he referred to the very sad death of his daughter. Now when Brown gives his podcast he refers to the economy, and the recovery, which has taken root, but still needs to be nurtured, because it is in its infancy, and without this support it will wither and die.
Now Brown says that Alastair Darling and I, he really can't keep himself out of it, they have a plan, and they are sticking to it, can we please all see the plan, the very cunning plan, because for the life of me the plan I see is one where the country goes bankrupt, and has to go to Europe and the IMF to bale us out, just like Greece.
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It's laughable that Gordon doesn't have a problem to which the solution isn't a bank. Now he's making one of his own.
"Alistair Darling will use the Budget to announce the creation of a new state bank, backed by £2bn of public and private cash, which will help finance companies planning to build green energy projects and high-speed rail links."
Reining in spending ? More like throwing it away on more useless and wasteful projects. I can't say that I've really heard of any project that is properly environmental. Most are either counter productive, whimsically hopeful or fundamentally flawed. For some strange reason it also includes the funding of high speed rail links in its remit which presumably involve digging up large swathes of countryside.
Unfortunately the words 'eco' and 'environmental' are being cynically exploited to give projects (even when they plainly have the reverse effect) some 'holy' seal of approval. The payback will be when every project that receives investment will be scrutinised in painful detail, exposing the slightest deviance from it's claimed principle.
If Gordon hasn't noticed by now, banks don't function on principles, and dogma is an even worse bsis on which to attempt to operate them. It just shows that Gordon never really did understand what a bank is, and still doesn't.
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#168
Actually there is something called the SEA, or Strategic Environmental Assessment directive, which must be complied with. Now if a project needs a loan before it can be implemented, then surely the whole process must be analysed before being progressed with, which must include any bank granting any loans. To see the effect of putting all your eggs in one basket then again just look at Detroit, the same with our motor industry, what exactly is the point, it is such a contradiction that it is almost hysterical.
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catch22 164
You can see it that way if you wish. However generally I believe it is seen the context I have outlined.
Three big Automobile companies thought they had a golden goose with an endless stream of cash reliant on one single industry, the car industry. This is much the same as Britain with its reliance on the financial sector. Of course there was the issue of how the car companies treated their workers and so on. However when that fails the whole infrastructure upon which this single industry has been built fails too. Therefore you end up with bascially nothing to to move forwards with.
However then when a new approach is taken to rebuild Detroit, as in this example, with a much wider base for its generation of wealth, success follows.
However I agree you are right to see the collaspe of our own economy in this context. America certainly will follow if it continues as it is and is already falling in its Global importance. Europe it depends very much if Germany as the powerhouse in the EU decides to continue with the EU model in place at the moment.
I agree that Quantitative easing which was meant to increase the money supply has most probably not worked. This was very dependent on the whether it would increase the banks lending. If the banks hoarded the money or they were instructed to do so, to build up their capital, then it would not work. The most likely reason for the Government to have increased the money supply however, I believe, is the Government could not raise enough tax revenue to pay their obligations and meet its debt. In which case it would not work. With record low interest rates, risking an expansion of the money supply could lead to severe inflation in my opinion.
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161 Croftie
I am no longer sure that being a Finance Capital is so good. It was always boasted of as our invisible earnings which kept our balance of payments in the black, yes manufacturing has been on the slide for a very long time.
However that relied on honest brokers and bankers, not greedy self interested operators playing world roulette with everybody elses money.And getting bonuses of King's ransom proportions , win or lose. Can you imagine going to the bookies placing a losing bet, getting your stake back and a bonus on top! Perhaps William Hill and his ilk should run the banks.
No unless I am convinced those avaricious parasites have been reeled in under a proper and enforced regulatory regime then anyone can have them for me.
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xTunbridge 171
No argument from me about what went wrong. However one has to remember that had proper regulation been in place instead of Brown changing it to the dreadful FSA Britain would not be in this position now.
Being a Financial Capital is a good thing it generates jobs and taxation. That is why the EU has had its beady eye on stealing it and many round the World would like to take Londons place. However it must be properly regulated. Brown should have used the taxation from the City of London in the good years to generate wealth and spread growth throughout Britain. Instead he used its taxation to spend on expanding the public sector to unsustainable levels for votes. Jobs were not created to get the original benefit claimants back to work in the private sector. Immigrants came in to do the jobs our people would not do. Therefore in recession when the financial sector fails, Britain has nothing much to generate wealth and the decline is almost certain. If we lose the City of London we will lose even more jobs and taxation.
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Andrew,
listened with interest to Brown giving his 'Building Britains Digital Future' and telling us what the Chancellor will say on Wednesday, very interesting, he treats Darling with contempt, I don't know why he stays in his job.
As for the idea that there will be Business Services Company to do government jobs, please where are we going with this PM. He mentions Martha Lane Fox, and who has exactly voted for her, who does Brown think runs this country.
It is ok for me to have influence, but that is not democracy, that is people stealing my ideas and using them as their own. Universal access to the Digital Age, 100% on line, BBC licence, and the telephone levy.
What I may humbly suggest is the first thing which should be done, if anything, is for there to be a massive reduction, if not eradication of the pornography now being made available over the net.
All public sector data, why not tax returns of MPs, why not all jobs, all jobs, advertised, MyGov as a policy is an ambitious policy alright, a panel! How do we get onto these panels, who is making these decisions, where is the democracy. The new Web Institute, this is about taking control, about removing access, not improving it. Be afraid, very afraid. The trouble is the professions, the vested interests, just listen to 'Building Britains Digital Future', excuse me but he has not yet won the election. He assumes that he will still be in control after May, well I think that there might just be a surprise for him.
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xTunbridge 171
I did mean to add, everyone assumes that the right thing to do was throw taxpayers money at the banking problem. There were alternatives which if the Government had not dithered over what to do could have been taken. The bad bank to dump toxic debt into and run it off, was I believe the right way to go. This would have been painful and would have cost Brown a great deal of votes. However the taxpayer would have been much better off. In the end the taxpayer is propping up all that toxic debt that will fail anyway when interest rates go up and all the stimulus schemes which are keeping toxic debt at bay happens. Brown will hope it is after the election.
What did this banking crisis in Britain really amount to N. Rock which now it has been run agressively is back on its feet. RBS and HBOS which were saved in the manner they were, to keep votes in Scotland. The credit bubble could have been averted by proper regulation.
Its all smoke and mirrors by Government and in America many voices are saying as much. The British are only allowed to know what the Government lets them know.
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Andrew,
a most interesting Daily politics today. Ben Bradshaw should have been asked about the money given to his local theatre, the Northcott, so as to keep it going until after the election. Hey, it was only £100,000 so that doesn't matter does it.
By the way I have to say that there is a problem with your new set, surely the colour of the table should not have been red, much too much of a statement. There is a connection to your story in respect of the arts, because is there a valid difference between the arts and design. I consider that there is a distinct link between the two, you cannot have design without art. So, which committee decided on the colour of the table top, could it not have been clear glass? But then clarity is something which we do not get at the moment from any of your contributors. Bradshaw for example referred to £400 odd million, so lose the lot of it, let them be free, no subsidy at all for the arts. After all its only £400 odd million.
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No new blogs recently from Andrew or Nick Robinson. Are the BBC cuts at work already ? Or is Mr. Robinson still smarting from the dissenting comments about his latest Ashcroft blog ?
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Now we know that Gordon's comfortable for his profession to be referred to as 'Cabs for Hire' then I think MP's should remove themselves from out TV screen and trying to dupe us in to believing otherwise.
Buying an MP is quite reasonable. Cheaper than your average family car.
My concern with having a government controlled eco-bank is that it is giving masses of taxpayer funds to a body to dispose of on ideological grounds. We've already heard allegations about government money going to the Unite union for 'educational purposes'. What next ? Just use your imagination.
Worse than that is the fact that most so-called 'environmentally friendly' projects usually turn out too be nothing of the sort. If it's based on the way the World Bank functions, it'll be a disaster, becoming more a tool for political purposes, nothing to do with the environment.
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Susan Croft really needs to take her tinfoil hat off and stop with the conspiracy nonsense.
The facts are all in the public domain and prove her to be a little englander racist.
1. The takeover of the Bank of Scotland by HALIFAX was opposed by a wide cross section of Scottish society and it was predicted that it would be a disaster.
2. HALIFAX bank of Scotland is run from england by english people, lending money to english people to stoke the english property bubble.
3. Brown was negotiating with LLoydsTSB to take over HBoS months before HBoS was hit by the share crisis.
4. Labour in Scotland have been using the english inspired bankin crisis to attack Scotland and run down the Scottish economy.
Or has she ignored the "fists in the air" at the labour conference reported by labour supporter, and former BBC employee, Iain McWhirter?
5. Despite the best efforts of the english government to detroy us. Scotland is still here.
6. They just opened a massive gas field off the coast of Shetland. Maybe yu'd like to claim that as english like you do all of our other resources?
And for your information, not all money comes from the private sector. The public sector can create money as well. Or do state owned oil wells, gold mines, farms, forestry and fishing not produce wealth? Only private sector hairdressers maybe? Or dog walkers?
It's beyond time that you and saga joined mike naylor in being banned from the BBBC.
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@176
Maybe they are taking a leaf out of Byer's book and burying the news?
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Andrew,
there is a piece on Radio Five about non payment of council taxes, the level of which seems to have reached 3,000,000 in debt. Now this debt together with regard to the non payment of taxes to HMRC must mean that pretty soon some of these debts are going to have to be paid. However, the recovery is fragile, and in its infancy, and it must be allowed to take root, because otherwise it will wither and die. So I hope that like the government has a plan, people in Britain have a plan as to how they are going to meet their debts.
I have a cunning plan which involves printing money, and leaving me with just enough to get by, but then if I did that I can expect a visit from the boys in blue, and for my collar to be felt.
In the meantime as a result of the disclosures about some MPs maybe I ought to start charging, you know Andrew, if I were to be given, let's say £5,000 then I will write a piece on Andrew's Blog, any offers. By the way for the purpose of the moderators and me soliciting gifts that was a joke, or is Andrew the only one to be allowed to crack 'jokes'. The best one at the moment is Andrew's hairstyle, which is now much less orange than it was on his return from holiday after the end of the parliamentary summer recess.
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Graves2002
Nice to know you feel the same about Labour as the English do, well those with a brain in their head.
It does rankle a bit down here tho that to try and buy the Scots vote Brown is happy for you to have some better conditions than us. To rub salt in our wounds the Scottish Labour MPs come to Westminster and vote for us English to have worse, student fees for one.
So perhaps together we will knock Brown off the throne he is so grimly clinging to.
Croftie and Saga are ok, all shades of opionion here, unless you are Exxon2, sad business that.
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What do you want to ban me for, Graves? I quite like the SNP, I'm a Clear Thinking Progressive for heaven's sake! Is it because you're embarrassed I caught you on that tennis blog writing off Roger Federer as "past it" on the day before the Aussie Open final? Because if it is, I can pretend I never saw that.
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#178
Nobody should be banned from the BBC, period.
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Hello BG. Can you not block up the system and the internet with your numerous open windows.
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180 C22
Perhaps your income is low enough that you are entitled to benefits.
Contact the local council for Council Tax Benefit and Housing Benefit, the Jobcentre for everything else.
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Graves 202 178
I don't recall mentioning Scotland or the SNP and would rather not get into a debate about it. If Scotland had been Independent, it matters not where it trades the parent company of the bank always pays for the bail out. Thus Scotland would have had to pay for its own banks. I am certainly not siding with Labour, I would gladly see them as history. This would have bankrupted Scotland. However, as I have already said it depends on whether you believe the bank crisis was handled in the right way in the first place.
One needs to be careful about the Gas find you are talking about. This is in very deep water and the British Government has had to give very big concessions for the companies to develop it. This is also a find that belongs to the Shetlands not Scotland. It is said that should Scotland go Independent the Shetlands will go Independent themselves, taking their Gas and oil with them. This actually would be a very sensible move for them. It seems the whole of Britain wants to fly the nest of the Union in one way and another.
I hope I have never given the BBC a reason to ban me. I don't think they could on the basis that my opinion differs in some ways to yours anyway.
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Andrew,
in the furore over the MPs who will be on our screens tonight I hope that the media concentrate actually on the announcement of the tank contract, surely this should not have been made just before a general election. A bit like the Humber Bridge construction which was announced just before a bye-election. As for the aircraft carriers, what a load of white elephants they will be, how much will it cost to cancel the contracts. Mind you no different to the banks for their arrangement fees, or charges for switching a mortgage.
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Andrew,
there has just been the announcement that Samantha Cameron is expecting a baby in September. I have to ask what will Gordon do now, surely not, please the don't do it Gordon.
I can imagine the influential people now, now don't tell us that you and the beautiful Sarah would like to have company for their children, we won't be keeping a running commentary going, but I hope you realise that we will enjoy trying for one, it will be fun interrupting the election trail. Glad there were no miss spellings in that one.
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#179
Whatever did happen to her, she of the good days to bury bad news. Anybody know.
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@189
I believe Ms Moore is teaching - Byer's future employment prospects may also be in doubt now.
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As an SNP resurgence would knock Gordon out of power, and I also support Scottish independence, it seems that the only people who don't support the SNP are the Scottish, and they then come down south of the border and nag us about it. Well, what can I say ?
What's the master plan ? Independence - then Europe gets your gas. That's the way it works. I think they'll let you keep your wind, but don't bet your life on it, because they're building some new interconnectors, so even that won't belong to you much longer.
If you're lucky they may alter the rules of golf so that your wind farms can be considered dual usage, and please note that Gordon is not being held hostage south of the border.
If you think you're suffering north of the border under Gordon just imagine how we feel. Perhaps with all those pylons being built Gordon will set up a high speed tram network for you. Never mind, maybe with a high speed intenet connection instead you won't notice.
If only I could vote for the SNP.
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184. Leuctrid wrote:
"Hello BG. Can you not block up the system and the internet with your numerous open windows."
If you promise to stop using your kettle so frequently, it's putting a strain on the national grid.
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I'm thinking of buying a Hoon although I hear there are good deals to be had on Morans. Or should I wait until new models come on the market in May?
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We don't expect the residents of HM Prisons to draft criminal law so why do we believe that Parliament has any interest in drawing up any effective legislation to curb their own personal money making urges ?
It's not as if MP's haven't already shown themselves to be pretty incompetent at drafting legislation, so perhaps they shouldn't be involved in that aspect at all. If they decide what's necessary and then leave the actual drafting to professionals in the civil service who might actually be able translate words into law. I know that it might fundamentally undermine the bumbling shambles that we call government, but it's about time politicians were judged on their performance, and if they can't do a job, then it should be taken from them, with an adjustment of their salaries to match.
Gordon can leave things as they are if he wishes, but then the claim of MP's being nothing more than 'cabs for hire' stands.
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#191
If the SNP really want independence for Scotland, they should be calling for a British referendum, not a Scottish one.
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How come Baroness Morgan is £5k per day but Hoon is only £3k? Does the man have no belief in himself?
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Cabbage.
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Just watched the Despatches programme. What a bunch of blatherskites.
Is it any wonder that the laws enacted by Parliament are so bad when you have people as dense as this lot in there?
Good god I've seen dogs learn faster than the denizens of that den of inequity. Prostitutes are better at least that is an honest profession.
For those that are interested GuidoFawkes tweeted this petition earlier. It is to strip Byers of his Rt Hon. Im not one for signing petitions much usually but this was a REAL PLEASURE.
http://www.gopetition.co.uk/online/34948.html
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C2 go to BBC News 'UK in Recession' which answers everything you've put on here and a whole lot more, from the economy to personal finances.
And try dot.Rory for MP's 'being bought'.
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195 mike-jay
Or even an English one! I am sure we would be happy for them to be the makers of their own destiny.
Wish we were.
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200 xT
That's sad, very sad. But Scarlet O'Hara wouldn't let these things get her down, wonderful role model for the young, I think.
Is that telephone exchange still lurking? If not why not?
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203 Leuctrid
I told you last night you must keep taking your medication!
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And you think I'd listen?
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I was going to bid for one of those MP's today but I decided to spend my money on a tin of pears instead. It was a luxory in the war, tinned pears.
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#198 I'd go further and take the title Rt Hon away from the lot of them superAngry. Gordon is so complacent he's lost the urge to pretend any more.
Did I see on TV Lord Mandelson harping on about the grubby behaviour of MP's or was I hallucinating ?
The sleaze wagon careers on as before. It seems that government always has difficulty finding a law to apply in these cases, though it's more likely the horror is that they could end up receiving justice in a court of law that terrifies them.
'Cab for hire' - that's an expression that will live a long while, and one I'm sure they'll live up to, and don't forget that expenses for Lord's remains an unreformed scandal. and the sooner that bunch of freeloaders is put out to pasture, the better.
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#206
As I have said earlier I really would like to hear from Mandelson about his earlier problems with regard to the mortgage which resulted in his resignation from the government.
Also I would like to hear about the jobs Blair is now taking and what payments he, or his charity are in receipt of.
I will also be keeping a very close eye on the career of John Hutton, who has resigned as Minister for Defence, and will not be standing at the general election, what jobs will he be taking.
I have previously remarked on the job being done by that wonderfullly brave and courageous retired general Mike Jackson, and the fact revealed in his memoirs about taking his own legal advice before accepting orders in respect of Iraq.
However, what worries me at the moment is the breaking news on the Today programme about what will be in the budget tomorrow about individuals and having to have a basic bank account.
The reason for my concern is this. We are constantly hearing about drug dealers, and the money in what I used to know as the black economy. Are we seriously going to have drug dealers having to have a bank account, because surely the banks must report to the authorities any unusual movements across a bank account.
Furthermore, we know that elderly people have quite good pensions, and they are helping out relating siblings, and surely this must be declared to the state, because if the sibling is in receipt of any state benefit, then this extra 'income' must be declared.
One of the problems with the Irish economy when they went into the Euro was that they had to get their Euros from a bank, and all their income was then scrutinised. So what did they do, they 'invested' their money into Britain, thus avoiding any tax on their accumulated untaxed wealth. The same situation with Greece, one problem is identified is that they don't pay taxes.
I want to know why we continue to see RBS printed on the pitch in major rugby matches, I want to know why I still see Northern Rock on a famous football club in the North East. I want to know what would have happened to the wealth of the Queen if Coutts, part of RBS, had failed.
I am just so angry, I am enraged, about what has been allowed to happen with regard to my country, about the continuing appalling situation in parliament. That every wednesday Brown comes to the despatch box and reads out the names of our dead, to bring freedom and democracy to Afghanistan, and to end corruption, and to keep terror off our streets. The sort of terror which led to the death of Mr de Menezes, the death of David Kelly, the death of Blair Peach, the death of Mr Tomlinson. This is indeed a land fit for heroes.
I can even go back to Hansard on the 30th July 1914, where you will see trials for the treatment of Japanese Naval Contracts which involved four British companies, Vickers, Yarrows, Weirs, and Arrol. Somethings never changes, money makes pimps and whores of us all.
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C2 188 207
You are on benefits, aren't you. Please don't repeat yourself.
Babyface.
Ship trials are not unusual.
And stop swearing.
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How interesting that the Political Editor's blog is no longer open, despite the events of the weekend.
Whats the betting that it wont open again until theres something else about Ashcroft?
"Blatherskites"... never heard that before, Super, but will remember it, excellent choice.
I see mention of another gas field in the Shetland basin... isnt that going to be somewhat close to the Norwegian sector, considering that Lerwick is closer to Norway than it is to Scotland?
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207 C2
The basic bank account etc is only for the payment of state benefits. You cannot be forced to use it for anything else. The post office card account also is for payment of state benefits only, you cannot even put any other money into it.
Savings income or income from a trust or relative does not necessarily need to be declared to the benefits agency, depending on how much it is etc. A certain amount of savings are allowed.
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No209 Bill,
You may be right about 'Lord Sleaze of Belize' coming back into the news in the near future. Apparently the tax he promised the Treasury but ended up being used to (buy the Tory Party) and influence marginal constituencies is not having the desired effect.Has any of the Ashcroft money been used in your constituency?
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Bill_De_Zas
Yep, this gas as I pointed out Mr Graves belongs to Shetland not Scotland. Shetland if Scotland becomes Independent will most probably go for their own Independence and it would be a very good move for them. Many are of the opinion that Scotland has done very little for Shetland and the trust since Salmond became First Minister has dropped still futher.
The investment in this project has come from the UK Government with many concessions attached. The gas is in deep water which makes it a very difficult project.
It seems that Shetland people believe that the Edinburgh based Government of Scotland have done very little for them.
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209. At 10:40am on 23 Mar 2010, Bill_De_Zas wrote:
How interesting that the Political Editor's blog is no longer open, despite the events of the weekend.
Sorted now. But it was indeed gathering dust, as is the author aspect of this one. At least it stayed open during what, I am sure, for some, has been a 'difficult' period.
The lock downs of late, even if quaintly referred to by Richard Black as 'necessary to ensure watertight oversight' are a bit of a trial.
Moving on...
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211#
No idea mate, to be honest. Considering its meant to be targeting the marginals and my local constituency back home for better or worse is rock solid blue, I'd be inclined to think not.
lets face it though Sout, the events of the last few days (and I dont just mean the lobbying business, I mean the overseas trips as well, of which all shades are guilty) can only reinforce the view that the existing duopoly are equally as offensive as each other. It reflects very badly on both of them, as it rightly should.
I'd be interested to see over the coming weeks and days how this affects the public's polling intentions regarding independents and the smaller parties, rather than turning into tribal abstentions and more apathy. One thing we can surely be agreed on is that apathy is not the answer, regardless of what the question is.
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No212 Susie,
Shetland is part of the UK, I thought you would have known that, the MP for the island is a member of the Westminster parliament.
I am becoming increasingly impressed with your clinical analysis of complex economic and political issues.
Have you had any of your learned articles published?
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#208
I must ask you to identify any form of benefit which you assert I am on. I know that this might be seen as off topic, but it is very much on topic. Unlike MPs, I receive no benefits from the state, or the taxpayer, at all. If anybody thinks otherwise then please tell me, oh that is apart from a free bus pass as I am entitled to it as I am over 60, but avoid using it as much as possible, as I have chosen to live in an inner City area, so that I can use my own legs to carry me from one place to another.
Oh and exactly where do I swear, other than to quote others in much more senior positions to myself, who have used the term 'pissed off' as was once used by the wonderful Darling, who will of course deliver a budget for the country, and not for the labour party.
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As for using the term pimps and whores, are we no longer allowed to make reference to the greatest English playwrite, William Shakespeare, or not that wonderful man Karl Marx.
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Andrew,
surely the problem with Hoon is the problems over his various property dealings, which have resulted in him becoming quite a wealthy man.
My issue with him is that he was Minister of Defence at the time of the Iraq occupation. What I hope has not been happening is that whilkst he was MoD then did he spend any time on dealing with his various financial interests rather than spend time on ensuring that the chancellor at the time was kept fully informed at all times in respect of the financial constraints, and lag time between ordering equipment and getting that equipment to the front line.
The other problem I have is with regard to the enhanced interrogation techniques, and extra-ordunary rendition which happened during his period in office. Now I am not saying that he knew about our allies involvement in these issues, but I do know that the Ministry of Defence have used injunctions to prevent free speech on these important issues.
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Now C2 don't get your knickers in a twist. You don't need to tell anyone whether you are on benefits or not. I'm just saying, if you're not, maybe you are entitled to some, and if you are on benefits then see entry at 210. Try Citizens Advice also. The benefits will tell you 20 different things.
I tried saying 'I was just quoting Shakespeare' but they still bunged me in the cooler. But it's a good one, and I'm sure I will use it again.
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IPGABP1 215
That is exactly the point Scouter. Therefore Scotland as Mr Graves did, cannot claim this gas for themselves, it belongs to the Shetland.
Aberdeen may well be involved in the operation being the oil capital, but that changes nothing. Salmond cannot keep claiming possession and success for what does not belong to Scotland.
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#219
Thank you, I am my usual calm controlled and ebullient self so please fans do not worry. I am more concerned about what has been happening in parliament with the non dosclosure by the Foreign Secretary of the name and position of the individual who is to leave the Israeli Embassy.
It is the same with the wonderfully well informed Peston fellow, now we have another BBC journalist apparently knowing what was happening before the commons. The questions were being asked about news on the BBC being before Miliband spoke to the House. What on earth is going on. Miliband almost ran out of the House before he could respond to any points of order, such haste, it will be most interesting when he clears his oiffice after the general election, which will take place which is unlike the City council elections in exeter, which under a government directive will be cancelled. So much for democracy, the reason why our soldiers are being killed and injured in Afghanistan, oh sorry it isn't, it is to keep terror off the streets of our country.
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Andrew,
it would seem that the Americans too have a problem with wagging tongues, for example consider this from the Los Angeles Times in respect of treatment of prisoners, or potential prisoners:
'In one case last year, U.S. special operations forces killed an Al Qaeda-linked suspect named Saleh Ali Saleh Nabhan in a helicopter attack in southern Somalia rather than trying to capture him, a U.S. official said. Officials had debated trying to take him alive but decided against doing so in part because of uncertainty over where to hold him, the official added.
U.S. officials find such options unappealing for handling suspects they want to question but lack the evidence to prosecute. For such suspects, a facility such as Bagram, north of Kabul, remains necessary, officials said, even as they acknowledged that having it in Afghanistan could complicate McCrystal's mission'.
So it is not only Israel which has a problem with how to treat terrorists, or alleged terrorists, as is so perfectly shown by the Foreign Secretarys statement to the commons this afternoon. We are talking here about extra-ordinary rendition, we are talking about enhanced interrogation techniques, we are talking about state sponsored terrorism, about state murder. I am concerned that the death of Mr de Menezes could be seen by other countries as state sponsored terrorism, or murder, a difficult situation for many in our country to understand, but sometimes the truth hurts, and the ends never justify the means. However, I supoose that with the death of suspected terrorists, or leaders who are not liked, all's well that ends well, brilliant that Shakespeare fellow, we have so much to learn from his scribings.
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Andrew,
I am getting very concerned about the situation which appeared to pertain in Iraq in the period April and July 2003.
What I want to know from Chilcot is whether the situation in Basra was as bad as I have been able to ascertain. It should be understood that key officials of the Ba'ath party were either lynched, or they fled the City. Apparently public services collapsed and there was an outbreak of Cholera. I believe that the army had clear instructions not to shoot looters, and the Iraqi population quickly realised this.
Now when Blair and Brown gave their 'evidence' to Chilcot, it is this which the pair ought to have been asked to answer. I do not believe that the soldiers were either properly trained, nor advised as to how they should conduct themselves during an occupation resulting from what many regard as being an illegal war.
That is the problem which Chilcot seems to fail to understand, it is the cover up prior to the war in Iraq which is the problem, a bit like the economy and boom and bust. Because the whole idea was that there would be no more boom and bust, then there need not be a plan. There is apparently a plan now, and like the generals in the Great War, we have a plan and it will work, and we will not deviate fromn it. That is the trouble with a plan, a bit like the Schliefen Plan, the trians have to work, and nobody must fight the machine.
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Re :206
Gomer I agree with you there is nothing Rt Hon about this lot and for that matter there is nothing Hon about them either.
You werent hallucinting you did see Mandelson banging on about "grubby behaviour." That must surely come as the closest to a comedy sketch Newsnight has ever produced.
Re :209
Thank you Bill try adding fopdoodles to it to describe them too. Isnt the English language great.. Like the English of course they are great too.
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C2 - I'm glad you're feeling 'ebullient' now. Maybe Britain will be accused of being hippocritical regarding this incident, we have yet to see.
Budget tomorrow - great. It's so popular they've increased it to twice a year. I don't know how that competes with Eastenders.
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225
hippo? hypocritical
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Banks reporting suspicious activity on bank accounts ? Very amusing.
I once reviewed my bank's literature about their money laundering reporting rules and they were daft, and I can only believe that they were designed to be so. Winsow cleaners paying in cash isn't a reason to send in a SWAT team, unless the amounts are out of the ordinary.
There was a recent case of a man with well known connections to one of the country's most notorious crime gangs and crimes, who was given full banking support to carry out another highly dubious venture that ended in the courts. The sum involved was reported to have exceeded one million pounds, and this was for a man with no visiblble means of support.
We have to be thankful that our police haven't managed to shut down the drugs trade otherwise a significant part of our economy would disappear completely, and the FSA have finally decided to do their job now that their existence is in doubt. A strike rate of once every thirteen years after financial catastrophe is pretty poor. The rancid stench of our establishment is hard to bear as its grubby dealings are being uncovered on a daily basis. The honours list hardly deserves the name, and refusing one would hardly represent an act of rebellion nowadays, more a wish not to be associated with those who have gone before them.
The biggest joke of all - Lord Mandelson gasping in horror at the misdeeds of others. Clearly his mirror doesn't show him the face the rest of us see so clearly.
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#225
I think that you will find that our 'secret services' are far from clean on all these issues. Maybe people in our country might just begin to understand what it feels like to be in the situation which the Iraqis and Afghanis have had to face.
The words of Miliband are not good enough, the way in which Mr de Menezes was killed using dum dum bullets would indicate that the Israeli methodology is beginning to be accepted by other countries, the ends justify the means, and all's well that ends well.
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Andrew,
isn't it brilliant that the day before the wonderful budget that the forces of good have decided that it would be the right time to bring to the public domain the problems over insider trading, wonderful coincidence, surely I am not so cynical. I really never cease to be amazed.
I wonder if the government will actually bring in a new tax on insider trading, it used to be called Capital Gains Tax, or are we saying that people who do insider trading don't pay their proper taxes either. As for CGT it might as well be abolished to be replaced by a simple application of income tax, if you buy something and sell it for more than you paid for it, simple tax at 50%, and get rid of all these reliefs on the effect of inflation.
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228 C2
Well I'm not so sure that this is Isreali methodology. I'm more inclined to agree with your post 222. Menezes came first, remember. Also, Isreal is not experiencing good relations all round at the moment; maybe (some)long-standing issues will be resolved with everything coming to a head (ever the optomist, me. You have to be in this world). When that finally happens then it will be 'All's well that ends well'. Hurrah hurrah!
Budget tomorrow.
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229 CT
50% ??? That's massive. Depreciation in CGT reduces the inflationary effect of the tax. Think the effect on house prices for example of a 50% tax. I think you need to refine your theory.
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Excuse me for having an off topic hissy fit, but the inane utterances of pseudo scientists are becoming highly irritating.
GP's are once again spouting off, and if they feel that smoking is so bad, and I don't doubt that it is, then they should press for a total ban on production, sale and usage. Where does their scientific and ethical judgement allow them to decide to limit their opinion to giving advice that protects government revenue streams ? They should be more honest and give the reason for wanting to promote smoking, and let's have their views on alcohol whilst they're at it. I'd be happy with a zero drink driving limit, though GP's may not be so keen to promote health law that's likely to impact themselves.
What abour processed food ? It has long been stated that the consumption of processed foods makes you more liable to cancer. Would GP's like to add a little detail to that claim ? Which particular foods are involved and what particular aspect is causing the problem ? It seems to be the fad for those who are deemed to have knowledge to dictate to the rest of us, but their advice is tainted.
When I first went to hospital to investigate my kidney cancer I was asked to take a test that was irrelevant to my condition, and I refused it. I hadn't realised it fully, but I was dealing with a registrar (effectively a work experience doctor) and his job was to get me out of the door. When I asked him to examine the actual problem, he looked all at sea. My brother had exactly the same experience, and it seems that NHS hospitals use this as a 'go away' obstacle to treatment.
I appreciate that my bad experiences have coloured my opinion of health professionals, but if GP's seek to give medical advice, then that's what they should give, and not abridge it in a form that makes it politics. If smoking is bad, then it's bad for all and advocating a limited solution is politics.
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#231
It is because these so called experts in economics will not seem to accept that one of the ways to avoid the long term hardship which is now going to be visited on us is because they will not accept that asset values have to fall. That is the way in which reality will return. By the way I include wages and salaries as asset values, people have a price, if there are too many people then their value falls, it is the law of supply and demand. That is why the Black Death was such a success, suddenly people were free, because all of a sudden there was now fewer people available, so there value increased, until their was some sort of equilbrium. Consider the difference between the short run and long run.
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Andrew,
it is not only Byrne who sets tongues wagging, it is burns. Take for example an article in my local paper today relating to a fire in one of the PFI schools in Exeter.
'MORE than 1,000 pupils were evacuated from an Exeter school after an arson attack.
Around 1,300 students and 150 staff at West Exe Technology College, in Hatherleigh Road, were forced to take refuge on the school's playing fields after a fire was started in one of the building's toilets.
Firefighters from Exeter attended the blaze, which broke out at around 11.30am yesterday.
And police have been called in to investigate the incident, which is being treated as malicious. It is not yet known who started the fire but it is thought one or more pupils deliberately set alight materials in the toilets'.
Now I am sure that one of your contributors will be most interested in this fire, as both he and I have been going on about sprinkler systems until the cows have come home. There is a private members bill now trying to get through parliament about fitting sprinkler systems to all new schools. A bit late I might say. Fortunately nobody has died in this but one day, and I hope that it does not happen, but there are people who will have to bow their heads with shame when somebody inevitably does die. Poor equipment for the schools, poor equipment for the soldiers, all because of the accountants, it would be nice to have an investigation into cost benefit analysis.
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#234
Corruption, backhanders to all and sleaze has paved the way for us to reach this point. The system is rotten to it's core.
In Andrew Neil's heyday, intrepid investigative journalist to the fore a huge outcry would be heard and heads would roll. But now worn down by the system nary a whimper will pass his lips as he too kowtows to the media's vows of omerta and do their best for the government of the day rather than the country they dwell in.
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Andrew,
What on earth is happening in Scotland? The links between Councils, Scottish Labour Party, elements of the criminal world especially the drug barons and the conspiracy of silence amongst the Scottish media is mind boggling.
http://www.torybear.com/2010/03/what-did-gordon-know-and-when.html
Coupled with the Hollie Greig case it would seem that law and Order north of the border is a myth. Terrible things to read about in the full knowledge that a cover up is going on.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#236
what you say should be looked into is the situation with regard to the Dunblane Massacre, there are still questions to be answered, as was pointed out in an earlier post.
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Andrew,
now that the budget is over apparently the government is going to tell us about the £11 billion of cuts is going to be given in detial in a press release. Please this is disgraceful, as for Ashcroft and the agreement with Belize, this is so pathetic, and I am no Tory, but who exactly gave Asghcroft his peerage, and I still want answers to cash for honours, and loans to political parties.
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Andrew,
I watched the television relay of the budget speech by Darling. What an absolute disgrace is what happened next. Brown smirking, and involving himself in conversations, and laughing, anything rather than actually listen to Cameron. Now whether you agree or disagree it is the rudeness of Brown which appalls me. When he used to go to the Mansion House speech, with his lounge suit, now look at him.
It really was appalling to see labour MPs leaving the chamber, it would appear that they have lost it completely, they have gone to be first in the queue for the taxi. I consider that Darling will not even be chancellor in a matter of months, whatever the result of the election. He is a dud, and he keeps firing blanks in respect of the actions required for the economy. Every time that he mentions Northern Rock he really should declare that he actually had a mortgage with that particular bank.
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Andrew,
with the announcement of the sales of assets, please note that I think they will be selling stuff like Ambulance, Police, and Fire Stations which are no longer required. They will probably be selling the old army equipment, when we leave Afghanistan. They will also probably sell the new vehicles to the Afghan army, which will be funded by the money being given for overseas development, because well we won't be in Afghanistan when they are ready to be delivered.
Also why are we still giving aid to India, and Pakistan, when they spend so much on their nuclear arsenals. Same with China why are we giving them aid, when they seem so wealthy, same with all of our overseas aid, probably because like Woollas has said before that we are fighting in Afghanistan to keep the number of refugees down.
As for the higher taxes on the cider, it is not binge drinkers who drink cider, has anybody actually been to one of the few cider houses left in Newton Abbot, where the drinks are controlled because if you drink too much it has quite a dramatic effect on your bodily functions.
What he should have done is to bring in minimum prices for all alcohol sold through any outlets, now that would have helped to reduce binge drinking, but there is an election due, or is there!
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Could Laura Kuessenberg please name and shame the three MPs who slept through Darling's Budget speech? Totally unfit to be MPs.
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236 ExcellentCatBlogger
238 Catch22
Yes what has happened in the Hollie Grieg case is a travesty. It is never reported on either. Strange things have happened to those supporting her case.
People in high places protecting themselves being investigated for extremely serious allegations.
There is a link to the Dunbalne killer Thomas Hamilton . As for the Cullen enquiry. Papers kept secret for 100 years even when there is no Scottish statute to authorize this.
Will we ever know the truth ?
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Andrew,
I have found the Ministry of Health Press release, can't find the others, can anybody find all the press releases about the cuts, savings, efficiency savings whatever, which are now being put in the public domain, on the basis that nobody will find them.
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Andrew,
surely there is an issue which I raised some time ago and that is in respect of our services. Why separate them, too many chiefs and not enough indians. Merge the services. How much would that save?
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Is there any logical reason why Gordon thinks that even the elderly and sick, without an internet connection, should fund high speed broadband for the inhabitants of secluded Cotswold villages ? Are MP's upset that their taxpayer-funded second homes don't offer them the opportunity for film downloads that their spouses enjoy so much ?
Why not tag the cost to fishing licences or passport fees ? Perhaps it's the new Socialist concept of tax the poor to make way for the new Socialist elite. Maybe the newly established Eco Bank and Space Agency will provide a lot more six figure salaried quango bottom feeders all desperate for poor subsidised high speed internet connectivity. Where's sagamix when I need an explanation of Gordon's vision of Socialism ? It's rather poinless making savings them to go ahead and invent two new ghastly money wasting enterprises.
I can't wait for our new space agency to start functioning. There'll be a long wait standing by the launch pad. Never mind, if they wait for November the 5th they can look up at the sky and dream.
I know that Gordon is the glove puppet of the banks, and it's difficult to comprehend that there'd also be room for one of our internet moguls to stick their hand in too, but from Lord Mandelson's obsession with downloads from illegal sites, it appears they listen to them much more than the public. I hate to mention it to our poor dimwitted politicians but the best downloads are freely available from a well known and entirely legal source. I'll be a good citizen and not mention it here, but if you don't know of its existence you must be over 80.
The most appaling thing is that our politicians are conceited in their arrogance and deceit. They're actually quite pathetic, and if they weren't quite so grubby I might feel pity for them.
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"France ditches carbon tax as social protests mount"
I'd vote for Sarkhozy.
"France is facing its own 'spring of discontent' as strikes shut schools, courts, railways and metro services, and trade unions vowed mass protests across the country."
I think this is portentous for us. On second thoughts, it's already begun here.
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Apologies, but this is so typical of the moronic spoutings of people we are supposed to consider to be our betters. If these are professionals or scientists making these comments then our education system is in severe need of help.
"Facebook has been linked to a resurgence in the STD [xxxxxx], according to health experts."
I've censored the quote so as not to fall foul of any over prudish word censoring.
What can you say ? I'd love to see their research, if they did any, which I doubt. It's empty headed day dreaming by under occupied quango dwellers who should get out more.
I find such moronic ramblings offensive to my intelligence, but I presume that they're encouraged by our current wave of pseudo-scientific doom-mongering.
Our government disapprove of state sponsored assasination do they ? How highly moral of them to take such a stance. I wonder why they then support the drone attacks of our ISAF allies in Afghanistan which are no more than assasinations, which presumably involve the target and his whole family. It's hardly reassuring that no one can identify who the targets were.
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gp @ 246
"Where's sagamix when I need an explanation of Gordon's vision of Socialism?"
Less of that, Gomer, thank you very much. Always happy to give you my vision of nirvana, of course. Nothing I like better, in fact.
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248. GomerPyle
"Our government disapprove of state sponsored assasination do they ? How highly moral of them to take such a stance. I wonder why they then support the drone attacks of our ISAF allies in Afghanistan which are no more than assasinations, which presumably involve the target and his whole family. It's hardly reassuring that no one can identify who the targets were."
Nailed it, GP.
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#250
Andrew,
there is still the enhanced interrogation technoques, extra-ordinary rendition and others please take the time and effort to read the evidence being submitted to the Baha Mousa Inquiry, as for Dr David Kelly!
As for Israel the way in which Obama has totally insulted the PM is brilliant, this was how Brown ought to have handled the Chinese before the Olympics, but I think that for all his bluster Brown has not only lost an eye, he has also lost a spine.
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Andrew,
just a very minor point about the BBC coverage of the budget. During their coverage there was a back-ground picture of the forecourt of a garage, the prices were ranged around 92p per litre, or so I could see. Now I have just watched the BBC Ten O'clock News, and guess what the prices had mysteriously disappeared. Could it be that somebody had pointed out that prices which we mere mortals pay down here in the South West are far closer to 120p per litre.
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C2 233 Yes the taper relief takes deals with the fact that the value of assets falls, so you've answered your own question really.
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C2 233 Oh yes, I see. Silly accounting methods. Absolutely! I Should have seen that before.
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Good Morning Andrew,
what really has been missed by the commentators is the Press Releases giving details of 'cuts', which the Chancellor did not refer to in his very boring speech.
Also what was missed was during PMQs, where Brown disclosed that ministers in future will have to sign contracts before they are 'given' their jobs. Now consider that before anybody is accepted into Special Forces they also have to sign a contract, a confidentiality contract, to stop them profiting from their experiences in Special Forces by writing exciting books, or such like. Now I have a very close family member who was referred to by John Hutton in February of last year during a parliamentary debate.
Now this family member brought to the attention of the public the appalling situation with regard to extra-ordinary rendition, which was initially denied by the government, and also American soldiers and their being trigger happy.
Now the contract which is signed by Special Forces was used to silence my family member, not on the basis of state secrets, or disclosure of secret information, but because, I think, of breach of contract. So, if the ministers sign any contracts I would get them checked by the best lawyers they can afford, just like General Sir Mike Jackson sought and received legal advice before he accepted his orders in respect of Iraq, as revealed in his recent biography.
There is a judiciary which is compliant in keeping secrets, secrets which are not secrets at all, but might just be embarrassing.
Oh, and when will there be an investigation into accountancy and consultancy firms which signed off the accounts of the banks without giving any warning as to the precarious instruments which they were dealing in. Maybe they had to sign confidentiality agreements which meant they only had to give good news for the banking sector, and no bad news please, it upsets national morale.
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Andrew,
how interesting the treatment of the Israeli PM whilst in America. Maybe people ought to look into the treeatment by Israel of Adolf Eichmann, which I believe has proven to be a precedent for state involvement in terror. Remember, the Israeli equivalent of our Special Forces did not bother to go through due legal process, they just kidnapped him, rather than go through a process of extradition, he was then tried in an Israeli court, and then executed him. The usual argument the ends justify the means, and all's well that ends well.
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Andrew,
in amongst all the noise about Ashcroft and Belize here is an extract from one of the Press Releases issued by HMG:
'The group has identified that there is currently no clear route for those with undeclared tax to establish their position and disclose their liabilities. HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) will improve this process. The group has also highlighted several key areas for further work and detailed analysis: to build on the success of HMRC’s current and past disclosure opportunities in offering mechanisms for leaving the hidden economy; to consider how HMRC can better link access to work opportunities to operating in the formal economy; and to educate people as to the unacceptability of evading tax and the dangers to working informally'.
Now when people read this they might just not understand that it relates to something which is now called the hidden economy, but most of a certain age understand it as being the black economy, although I can well understand why the term has been changed to something less politically incorrect. So when they talk constantly about Ashcroft this government also means all those benefit cheats, because we have you in our sights, and all those in the hidden economy. We must all work work, work, the cause is worth it, pay your taxes, don't receive a penny in state aid without being made to feel like a leper, or a parasite, this is all about hangers on, about the get something for nothing society.
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Andrew,
I do love watching the experts discussing the budget and spending 'cuts'. Maybe whenever they ask the question of anybody the person opposite them should ask,'And what exactly is your income?'.
By the way the experts are the bosses, the economists, the politicians, the newscasters...those who I regard as actually being free riders, and I don't like saying this but do not the moderators also get paid, for checking what we say. Maybe there ought to be a deeper analysis of what people are actually being 'paid' for, surely not to stop them rioting on the streets.
There is a serious problem with our economy, and it is money, and I have said before what money does, it leads to bribery, and corruption, and I assert that it leads to the worst part of our personalities being exposed.
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Oh A very, very good morning Andrew and readers of his blog. Today is a great day in the development of our democracy for today is the day that apparently there will be announcements about, wait for it, wait, hold your breath, yes there is to be an announcement today about...'Total Place' and here is what somebody important says about this new not just another Whitehall initiative:
'Total Place is not just another Whitehall initiative. It is about giving local providers the incentive to work together in new ways for the benefit of their clients and citizens – and the opportunity to tell Government how it could behave differently to make this kind of collaborative action more likely. As we enter a period when resources will inevitably be constrained, Total Place is also a chance for local agencies to ‘get ahead’ by examining how they can deliver better services at less cost. So the hope is that Total Place will provide good experience to share about service improvement, suggestions about cost savings and proposals for changes in Central Government. There is no time to lose!
Sir Michael Bichard, Executive Director of the Institute for Government and Chair of the high-level officials’ group
wow there is no time to lose! Sir Michael Bichard must be a very good expert and I will look forward to reading what he has to say when we are allowed to read about it, yes folks read all about it, read all it, and how much has this cost, how much does the person known as Sir Michael Bichard actually get paid.
There is a newspaper in Plymouth known as the Evening Herald and the news vendors are always shouting out Evening Herald, Evening Herald, only with the well known pronounciation of westcountry people it always sounded like Evening Harold, so I wonder how many people in Plymouth are known as Harold, or thought that it was just a very rude news vendor. My point, should I pay any attention to anybody just because they are Sir, or Lady this, Lord, Dame, Baron etc...abolish the House of Lords and give us a fully elected second chamber.
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Andrew,
whilst we concentrate on the economy let us not forget Afghanistan:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/7506932/Gen-Stanley-McChrystal-pays-tribute-to-courage-of-British-special-forces.html
indeed now that the Americans have stopped flouting international law we seem to have joined them in execution without trial, purely on counter insurgency roles.
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Andrew,
it is ineteresting to see the fall of the Euro against currencies, as the pound falls against the dollar, the flight to safety, so what do we do about the Chinese:
Sponsors of the bipartisan bill want President Barack Obama's administration to formally label China a currency manipulator in a semi-annual Treasury Department report due on April 15.
Could we not say the Britain also is a currency manipulator, which is why the price of petrol at the pumps is rising whilst the price of oil falls.
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256 Catch 22.
Interesting comment for a change.
There are many examples of assassinations by the security forces of Western nations let alone the USSR and its hangers on. Also many actions that could have or indeed have, led to deaths (Grivas, Castro, the Magdenburg, the Rainbow Warrior). We British killed Mau-Mau, EOKA and IRA terrorists and both Jews and Arabs in Palestine and justified these (when acknowledged)in terms of legitimate protection of our own people.
So let's not be too po-faced about the Israelis killing this piece of scum who gloried in the deaths of British soldiers and the London bombings.
It's more interesting to consider the possible outcomes of assassinations that were NOT carried out. I suppose that the most important counter-factual event is the fatal road accident that didn't happen to the Ayatollah Khomeini when he took refuge from the Shah in Paris in the 1980's.
No Iranian Islamic revolution, a much more stable and Western orientated Middle East and no present nuclear threat.
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259Catch
You have taken me back many years. News vendors used to be on almost every corner of Brum city centre . Elderly gentlemen seling from an upturned tea chest that stayed up a near corner when they were not there, imagine that today.
They were replaced by coin operated machines about 30 years ago but they lasted a very short time as once the machine was opened on payment for a paper you could take all the papers not just one. I often wondered if it was the redundant elderly gentlemem's revenge.
The above is a digression, it was your "Evening Harold" that took me back. How lucky to have an almost inteligible shout. At one time in Brum there were two papers the Evening
Despatch and the Birmingham Mail. The vendors sold both and the best you could ever make of their call was "spatchermile" repeated about every 15 seconds at full volume.
Oh happy days.
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War is neither heroic nor moral. The only grounds for waging war is survival, but that doesn't make it moral. Israel at least has the 'survival' grounds, which don't apply to us in Afghanistan.
Assassination is being applied as a regular tactic by ISAF, even ostensibly in countries not a party to the conflict - so they claim.
The idea that waging an interminable war in Afghanistan makes our streets safer is absurd, which leaves Gordon trying to turn it into a moral crusade of questionable purpose. The mere concept of our politicians trying to teach morals to another country is pretty rich.
It appears that NATO weren't too pleased that we'd saddled them with someone whose moral credentials were summed in his own words as being that of a 'cab for hire'.
That about sums up the whole rotten Westminster pile. Our soldiers deserve better. In fact we all do.
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264. GomerPyle wrote "War is neither heroic nor moral"
Drivel of course.
You are mixing up the naive concept of knightly heroism that beguiled the volunteers of 1914 with the reality of heroism in the trenches.
There is much heroism in war and the stories of soldiers, sailors and airmen, the Resistance and of ordinary people in WW2 let alone in previous wars should make you hang your head in shame.
Similarly the classic example of the moral justification of war was the day the Red Army liberated Auschwitz.
Fighting monstrous dragons was the ideal of knightly heroism and morality. These days our troops fight human monsters (if you don't agree sicken yourself looking at some of their posted videos) with great heroism in a moral war.
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One thing you can say about Patricia Hewitt: she sure is good at soliciting directorships!
Boots
BT
Cinven
Barclays
and now Eurotunnel.
Is this an alphatical progression through the ranks of the FTSE 199 perhaps?
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Your example of the Red Army liberating Auschwitz was not the best example to select, but does exemplify how propaganda can overlay reality. illustrated by the fact that Stalin was little better than Hitler with his string of Gulags serving largely the same function as concentration camps.
There are two fundamental questions to answer when war - why are you waging it and how ? I don't denigrate the bravery of the soldiers, but I have no confidence in the politicians,, hiding at home, whose primary concern is the siza of their bank balances. The contention that we are fighting to keep terorists off our streets is laughable and we are much too subservient to the USA to ever question the methods they employ.
If we ever knew why we started the war, it's clear that our main priority now (which is really governed by America) is to escape with as little damage to our prestige as possible. Currently we have a choice between Karzai and the Taliban, and we don't know which is worse, or whether or not they are indeed one and the same. The only effect of our pumping massive funds in to the reion is to actually fill the coffers of those we fight, and to actually give them the means to do what we are supposedly tying to stop.
I saw one news story where the American forces were surprised to find that the Taliban were armed with an unusual type of Hungarian weapon, precisely the arms they had supplied to the Afghan army. It appears that the average Afghan is a lot smarter than the average Westerner.
The Americans are now going to catalogue the weapons they supply. You just have to shake your head in despair.
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#267
Technically our involvement in Afghanistan is not a war. The rules of engagement laid down by the UN are the same as in Vietnam and we all know how that ended. ISAF troops can only return fire at the Taliban if and only if the Talibs fire first.
The only exception I believe is for Specal Forces, but then they operate out of sight of the media gaze. Which also opens the door for extra-ordinary rendition and torture which the pious Miliband et al deny that we partake in. The armaments export industry is very BIG business for Europe and North America - we will be staying in Afghanistan for a very long time, or maybe till the money runs out.
Talking of the Vietnam debacle (not a war, if anything a battle for independence) it is refreshing to view that actions of a PM, Harold Wlson who put the interests of the country before that of the Special Relationship. President Lyndon Johnston implored Wilson to send troops to supplement US forces in South East Asia, but instead of a poodle barking away (as Blair did and often) the Brtish bulldog growled no. Although that government managed to partially wreck the economy, at least the political elite then had some gumption and knew what patriotism was unlike the weasels that run the country today.
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267. GomerPyle wrote:
"Your example of the Red Army liberating Auschwitz was not the best example to select"
Agreed. And I'll add to your comment that the USSR was forced into war (as was the USA). I'll substitute the British Army liberating Belsen . I'm sure you'll have no objection to that as Britain declared war on Germany in support of Poland. A moral act in a moral war.
I hold no brief for politicians although I'm sure that a few of them aren't self-serving, morally-repugnant, self-important scum. The honest few are probably the ones that didn't start out as lawyers or secondary school teachers.
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268. excellentcatblogger wrote:
"PM Harold Wlson who put the interests of the country before that of the Special Relationship"
Wrong. The interests of the country lay with the US which was bankrolling the British economy.Wilson was mainly concerned with keeping his own left-wingers quiet. A difficult balancing act which the old rogue managed very well. When asked to condemn the US he said "You don't kick your creditors in the balls".
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261 C2 They got rid of the taper relief on CGT in 2008, so all that complicated stuff has gone anyway.
Obviously I had a temporary loss of memory. Knitting, makes me go cross-eyed, but it's more of an addiction really.
I've been to a cider house in N.Abbot, long time ago, can't remember too much but the glasses had a green hue to them due to the content. I think people learnt pretty quick about the negative effects of the stuff!
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brian @ 265
"These days our troops fight human monsters with great heroism in a moral war."
There are moral wars - i.e. those where the purpose is sufficiently important and just to justify the death and destruction - but I don't have either Iraq or Afghanistan in that category. Not even close.
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Harold Wilson wasn't a rogue and he didn't say that.
In WW1 most knew the reality and they still went - that's the heroism, not the delusions that you have invented for them.
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#273
I think that your assertion that most of those who went to the front knew the reality and they still went. I disagree, there was massive censorship of the press, and the bodies were not brought home, and the names were not read out in parliament, can you imagine reading out the names who fought and died on the Somme. I mean almost as soon as war was declared the MPs went on their holidays. People have stopped deferring to the 'bosses' that is what has changed. They have also stopped just taking orders.
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274 C2. No, because people did know their friends and relatives died, they were informed. There was even post on the front. The Crimea was what, 20 years before? Some fought in both. Some didn't realise what they were going into, but most did.
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