A harbinger of things to come?
The latest inflation figures are out this morning and they look worrying.
The Consumer Prices Index (CPI), the government's preferred measurement, rose to 2.9% in December from 1.9% in November, the biggest monthly rise in the annual index since records began and more than the City's expectations for an increase to 2.6%.
The headline rate of Retail Prices Index (RPI) inflation, which includes mortgage interest payments and which is used to calculate rises in welfare payments and in wage negotiations, rose to 2.4% from 0.3%. Only a few months ago the RPI was in negative territory.
The underlying rate of RPI, which is also used in pay talks, soared to 3.8% from 2.7% over the same period.
Inflation has been the least of the government's worries since the banking crisis led to recession but these figures will concern the Treasury and the Bank of England, especially since inflation will be been given another upward twist this month with the return of Vat to 17.5%.
The Bank has already warned that inflation will exceed its 2% target in the first months of this year given the sharp rise in energy prices and the decline of sterling, which pushes up import prices. Crude oil prices have doubled in the past 12 months, while sterling is 25% weaker against a basket of currencies than it was two years ago.
The Bank, which will have to write a letter to the Treasury to explain why inflation has exceeded its target when the January CPI also turns out to be over 2%, expects inflation to fall after the current spike as 2010 proceeds. Its official stance is not to be concerned. But many economists are convinced that the unprecedented loose monetary policy -- record low interest rates and the massive printing of money -- will inevitably lead to inflation and that the latest figures are not so much a blip as a harbinger of things to come.
Some senior City economists, such as Michael Saunders of Citigroup, even expect interest rates to rise later this year, which could threaten recovery.
I have operated on the assumption that interest rates would stay flat in 2010; I still think they will -- but now I'm not so sure.
And another thing: a British Airways strike is now on the cards again. I have two long-haul business trips coming up in early Spring and was planning to use BA, as I usually do. Not now. Too risky and there are enough risks flying these days -- security and weather -- not to add strikes as a third. I'll choose another carrier. So BA will loose two expensive business class tickets from me.
I'm sure it can survive the loss of my custom. But I am obviously not alone: across the globe business customers, the core of BA's revenues, must be making the same calculations. Even the threat of a strike is going to cost BA billions. In the current economic climate -- most airlines are bust and BA is on its knees -- even contemplating a strike will seem to many like suicide.
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~33~RS~)
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even contemplating a strike will seem to many like suicide
I think even the Unions can see the electoral writing on the wall, but I don't think BA management should walk away unaffected. I think they got lucky with the judgement at Christmas because the union was sloppy in it's procedures.
Still not a good thing for an incoming new government to stare at possible bankruptcy of the flag carrying airline. I too would make alternative arrangements
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it's like back to the Seventies without the flaired trousers: at least for me anyway.
The thing that bothers every saver in the country is why is inflation so much greater than the basic rate of interest? It is nothing more than a swindle that our interest rates are held down to prevent deflation. What deflation?
Didn't Heath pull a similar stroke back in 1972 to stop the cost of mortgages increasing?
Furthermore the evidence is that the consumer has already cut back in order to pay down their borrowings but in addition they are now going to be cutting consumption further because the cost of staples such as food and fuel are going up.
Government policy following the banking crisis has kicked the real economy into a downward spiral. Despite all the glad-handing of the government and its supporters this is the simple truth. I am awaiting the Council Tax hike in spring, along with all the other deferred tax increases for when the revolution really kicks off.
The people in this country have had enough of the incompetence, the greed and the grasping behaviour of those who like to think they run the place. Whether it be the government, the banks, power companies or other institutions this plundering of the people must stop.
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The low interest rate is because the Bank of England is effecivly operating a stealth tax on savers to support the banks balance sheet. The interest rate should probably be about 2% so savers are having a 75% tax on their interest. The banks meanwhile have not reduced their lending rates by as much as their savings rate and are using the greater difference to build their balances
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Stanilic
This will be particularly worrying for pensioners who get little interest on their savings but face ever increasing bills.
The savers have been penalised to protect the borrowers, it is hard to believe the BOE is acting independently of the politicians at times like this.
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What are the forces causing inflation? Because the bankers have excess money does not mean the rest of the economy does. Until the banks are actually regulated in some meaningful way the problems will continue. Because the banks have excess funds does not mean anything to the rest of the economy. Inflation during a ression is simply another indicator of the disconnect between financial services/government and the well-being of a national economy. Apparently, the make-believe world created by the banks that caused the crash is still populated by bankers and politicans.
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meninwhitecoats
It is only a matter of 42 months before I become a pensioner and I am looking at the cost of living very closely. I am reluctant to work longer than 65 as my late father became terminally ill at 67. So time presses, if you know what I mean.
The fact that the Bank of England has printed just enough money to cover the government's deficit this year looks too coincidental to me too.
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Andrew,
just to say that my pension is linked to RPI, as at October. What a surprise that now that I get absolutely no rise in my pension, because RPI was in negative territory, that the rate of inflation as measured by RPI should have risen so greatly. I hope that there will be a serious debate as to whether or not state pensions ought to be calculated in line with wages. I am in no doubt that I want to maintain the link to RPI, and no other measure. I do not trust the statistics with regard to wages, nor do I even think that wages will rise, because of the state of the economy. Not only that if I did want my pension linked to anything I would like my pension to be linked to salaries, and not wages. Wages are just so working class, rather than salaries, which are middle class.
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Andrew,
a harbinger of things to come is the depositing of the letter at the Chilcot Inquiry of the letter from Goldsmith to Hoon which was marked secret, but which has now been declassified. I seriously await the evidence from Goldsmith, and Straw, when they give their evidence. Just as Blair, I have no doubt, has compromised himself by his letters to Bush, and his recent interview a couple of Sundays ago.
I do however love to watch the evidence being given when these peopl,e give a gentle shrug, and a little smile as they give their evidence. maybe that should be recorded in the transcripts, as so and so said this they shrugged and smiled, or scratched their nose.
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#5 "What are the forces causing inflation? "
The demise of sterling for one.
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One small typo: "So BA will loose two expensive business class tickets from me. "
Lose =/= loose.
Interesting analysis, which confirms my feeling which is that holding the cost of borrowing artificially low (with 0.5% interest rates) in order to counter a bubble which was also created by holding the cost of borrowing artificially low (interest rates have been held too low since 2001) has been a mistake.
One of the significant effects, I think, will be on the housing market. House prices trebled in a decade in a huge bubble that has barely contracted at all. The reason it hasn't contracted has been the very low interest rates leading to low mortgage rates.
It does make me wonder whether a monetarist approach to this recession, Thatcher 1980-1982 style, would be, in the long run, less painful and more effective than the government's Keynesian spending binge.
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went cage diving with great White sharks yesterday WOW
Back to normal next wweek
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It is a terrifying thought that interests have to be kept low so as to protect the borrowing, the affect of this on inflation was to be expected.
But what nitwit thought of reducing VAT and then putting it back up again?
How is that going to keep inflation down? - Oh....of course...it won't will it. It wil just artifically create a status quo so that Gordon can boast about his prudence.
Like everything else this incompetent shower has done, they never think things through. You can't just reduce a spending TAX, artificially create a 'there's no real trouble, honest guv' spending spree and expect the economy to just gradually sort itself out.
All those jobs that Labour decided to create to hide and slow down unemployment, will have to go at some point as well.
I mean...really, what did you expect?
My gues us that inflation will reach double figures by end of 2010, there will be at least 4M unemployed (Thats the adjusted govmnt version, not the real actual figure)
Income Tax will go up by 2p in the pound, NI contributions up by 5% and VAT to 20%
It will take at least 4 years before they can be reduced.
Unless of course we stupidly vote these numb skulls back in. In which case it will be -
Inflation up to double figures, Unemployment up to 10M, GDP dropped by 20% (On account of the financial services industry shutting up shop in the UK), VAT 22%, NI up by 7% and Income Tax up by 5p especially for incomes around £20k.
Sterling will crash and the enormous debt that Labour have given us will have such a high level of interest payable due to our loss of AAA status that the IMF will have to come in and bail us out, force us to accept the Euro and take over the exchequer.
Scotland, Wales and NI will devolve leaving England to pay all the money back.
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ExxonMo2:
Were you attending a meeting of Bankers?
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The people never voted Gordon Brown into No.10, so perhaps he feels that he does not owe the people anything. He is clearly much keener to do the bidding of his buddies in big business and banking. The class structure has changed massively over the past thirty years, quite clearly.
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This is quite worrying. Stagflation on the way? I do hope not.
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"Brown warns Kraft not to cut jobs at Cadbury"
So says Chairman Gordon, and pray tell me what he'll do if they ignore him. Could this be classifed as threatening behaviour ? - and what will he do ? - thump the table with his fit and throw a wobbly ?
I saw on TV that when a crab loses its fighting claw, it grows a new one that looks impressive but is actually weak and useless. Sounds a bit like Gordon to me. It's just window dressing to pretend he has our interests at heart when, as usual, he's presided over another Great British sell out. The employees will not have it half so bad as Corus, but Gordon's belief in free market enterprise applies to all but banks.
Gordon - you know he doesn't make or talk sense. He's a man of principle - Lord Mandelson's principles, and that's not a combination of words you're likely to come across frequently.
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Andrew,
just to that the company which may be taken over by Kraft is called Cadbury, no longer is it Cadburys as referred to Brown. If he is going to refer to it then can he please make the effort to get the name right. It is just like his references to the dead in Afghanistan, he doesn't really care. Mandelson exposed the truth of the matter with this pathetic government, they can actually do nothing!
I know let's threaten America that we will withdraw our soldiers from Afghanistan if there are any job losses. Or maybe this is all part of Browns brilliant scheme to get more people to aspire to be middle class, I mean labout are so not in in favour of the working class. We can can all be bourgeouisie, no more proletariats.
There is something called the Phillips Curve, as was learned by economic students back in the time when many of those who now in control were students. There is a shocking lack of understanding, of the link between employment/unemployment and wage rates, which are closely linked to inflation. They still don't seem to understand about time lags. Do not worry about stagflation, there is lagflation, where action taken now does not have an effect until two years down the line. Be afraid, very afraid. Quantitative easing is beginning to work through alright, the pound in your pocket is worth less, or nearly worthless!
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I think it is time for interest rates to be raised. Let the people with debts feel the same sort of pain that has hit savers over the last 12 months...
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I also remember the Government and BoE being unconcerned about the housing boom and the level of personal debt that was being accumulated...
Previous experience thus shows that when the official stance is "unconcerned", those officials have probably got their heads in the sand...
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You'd think that if there were any company a Socialist government might like to preserve, it's Cadbury, with its global success and emphasis on social responsibility. Furthermore, with the likely outcome to be a necessity to cut costs, it appears bizarre in the current climate to do nothing to secure jobs. It's hard not to view this politically as a tactical mistake.
As regards Afghanistan, it's hard not to view our strategy in pursuit of the war and setting up a government, as one major shambles.
"Afghan officials are demanding £1.5 billion a year in bribes..... according to a report by the United Nations."
Undoubtedly a significant proportion of that money goes to the Taliban, directly or indirectly. It's inevitable. To some extent, we are the problem, and the money being thrown around only feeds the insurgency and makes the area more unstable. For us to criticise the Afghans for corruption is hypocritical with the involvement of well known 'fund chasers' on our own side. The Afghans would have to be stupid not to get involved, and that, they surely are not.
At present we are funding, at enourmous cost, an insurgency which is not diminishing, and a government that is unstable, unpopular and corrupt, and the only certainty is that it will drain more money and cost more lives for as long as we prop it up. If we ever left, it would all just collapse into the state it was before our involvement, but with many individuals having become a lot richer.
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Good Morning Andrew,
I don't think that Brown realises what awaits him, and the party which he is nominal leader of. The news from the Bay State is brilliant, Scott Brown has won, the Republicans are back. This is from the Boston Globe:-
'Republican Scott Brown basked in the limelight that his breakout campaign has attracted, with fans in North Andover lining Main Street as if waiting for a parade. His supporters broke out into verses of “God Bless America.’’ Young and not-so-young women whooped with enthusiasm after he arrived.
“We’ve turned into groupies,’’ said Kerry McGrath-Stark, 49, a Newburyport resident who, with her husband, has been trailing the candidate for days'.
So, our own Scot Brown, who honoured the terrible Teddy Kennedy with a 'knighthood', has been humbled. It was always known that the Kennedy family had some faults, well we also know how close Brown felt towards them, he again backed the wrong 'un.
Scott Brown was the anti corruption vote, the anti what has been allowed to go on in the wondeful state of Massachusetts for too many years, the Obama is no changer, if anything he is a changeling.
Now rather than our Wooton Basset with its pathetic parades, and acceptance of the dire state we are in, let's have people on the streets singing their hearts out, 'God Save the Queen', the equivalent of 'God Bless America' now these Americans do have real pride in their country, I may not like nationalism, but there is just something about America, it can retrieve itself from the mire of Iraq, and Afghanistan. It will take time, but it will happen.
I think that the British have been kow-towed for too long by having our hearts ripped out, it's time for change, it time for action, it's about time we got angry again. I think it comes from the sea, where all life came from.
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Mourning the loss of Cadbury's. Whose next? The Royal Family?
Coats, saga etc.
Found a new landlord. In the Ides district, bit of a lottery though. Let me know if you need a roadmap.
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Sircomspect, though agreeing with much you have written, this stands out as inaccurate,
Scotland, Wales and NI will devolve leaving England to pay all the money back."
Scotland already has a devolved government, independence is the next step or full fiscal autonomy.
I doubt Scotland will ever get away " scot free" her resources rescued the last Labour mess and boy ! does Westminster want to hang on to us for grim death!
Now I wonder why that would be???
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Good morning each & Andrew.
BA-strike. This will do wonders for our Carbon-Footprint. Why not use Video-Conferencing Andrew?
2010 and the future prosperity of our nation is still down to worker exploitation.
Perhaps it is true as they say...new labour is best for big business. Sack the work force and hire a cheaper one. This will do so much for the safety of flying?
Business-class income to be lost by BA?
I shall wear my ignorance upon my sleeve and ask...
Is this expence not tax deductable? Does the exchequer not end up paying? Is not the short hand for the exchequer...Me?
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Jobless figures down, but are we being told about those massaged out
i.e. all the economically inactive
The beeb seems to concede the greater number of part time jobs, and I do wonder if this is a sign of all those who took on short contract staff for the Christmas period, I doubt that the government figures will tell us what these people went into but it might be more interesting if we wait until the figures come out in March
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Andrew,
I thought that the piece on the family was most illuminating. One could hardly fail to notice that 'the family' picture of a man, woman, and two children were apparently Asian. The single woman with child seemed to be white anglo-saxon. I just thought that it was an interesting set of images to support, or illustrate, an argument. Or is it an example as to how the Editor views modern Britain.
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...Doncaster has taken up much space in Private Eye over recent years...all bad...all Labour.
Is it proof of my cyniscism or of something else that this full report will not be published?
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...is Clegg, at long last, growing a pair?
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Andrew,
after the comment by Brown during PMQs then Chilcot must call him to give his evidence, as soon as is possible. It might just disrupt the smooth running of the inquiry, but this is hugely important. Chilcot must make a statement at the opening of the next session, and must say that with the permission of the PM Brown will be called to give evidence almost immediately. The boil needs to be lanced, let's get Scot Brown before Chilcot, either that or Brown must call the general election for March.
As for the economy why is Brown allowing taxes to rise before the recovery fully takes hold. More real job lsses in the private sector, and no doubt more to come at Cadbury.
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Andrew,
it was most interesting that when answering the questions on the social services problems in Dincaster that Brown had eyes only for Balls. As for Yvette Cooper and grandparents there is a trap. Some grandparents, mainly middle class, are receiving care allowances because they are caring for the child of a failed parent, all the government really want to do is to save money! They don't really care at all. Middle class grandparents are terrified as to what may happen to a child, especially with what has happened in Doncaster with social services.
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Definitely a win for Clegg
Doncaster is a travesty beyond Haringey, but the need for Brown to not release the report suggests the need to stabilise confidence by protecting the guilty
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I'm not sure Chilcot should call Brown yet
After all, most of the evidence to date seems to point the finger at Brown, and therefore there must be more to come
If it was all about Bliar then we'd have a lot more ammunition about him by now
Leaving it till later could actually ensure his personal damning
Either way, I still believe that the only way we'll get a credible Chilcot report is if it is delivered to another administration that isn't NuLiebour
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Nick Clegg delivered the most telling blow, and pained Gordon where he is vulnerable. It was just a shame that his revelation that he alleged that RBS were supporting the Kraft bid means that the UK taxpayer is providing finance to cut UK jobs. Not only that, but the massive leveraging of the whole transaction dosn't really strengthen either company.
We've seen many examples of corporate 'trophy hunting'. RBS's own forray into that ego driven sphere has only led to crisis for all those involved. Having lent, I presume a shedload of money, it is likely to be pressure from our own government controlled bank that will insist on cut backs and economies.
Having spent all our money backing banks, he is now caught in the trap of having to put corporate/bank welfare ahead of social welfare. Gordon has paid too much money into our banks to enable him to make an impartial decision.
Having refused to do anything to mitigate the stranglehold banks have over our economy Gordon is little more than a junior bank manager following their policies and interests. I would have been interested to hear Cameron's view, but he was nowhere to be seen.
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Clegg raised an interesting point, saying out that taxpayers had paid out vast amounts of money to virtually buy RBS, and this money was now being loaned to an American company to purchase Cadbury, almost certainly leading to a loss of British jobs in that company. A vicious circle. It might be how the market works, as Brown said, but it would have been easier to swallow if Kraft had borrowed the cash from a less controversial source.
And it was noted that Brown said that he 'hoped' that Kraft would honour their undertaking to protect British interests - a recognition that the government couldn't do anything about it if Kraft changed its mind.
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I travel frequently and extensively usually taking long haul flights. I always travel First or Business Class paying for my own fares. I have loyally flown with British Airways for 30 years. In 10 days time I am flying to Johannesburg and back with Air France. I have purchased 2 full price Business Class tickets for virtually half of the price British Airways are charging.
As an exercise in customer focus and sensible shopping I called BA an told them that they were about to lose a longstanding and hopefully valued customer. The lack of concern was evident is this business in the UK? What would Willie Walsh do?
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Brown's throwaway comment at PMQs lambasting Cameron for not asking a question about the economy looks very stupid now that Haiti suffered yet another major earthquake at 11am today. It measured 6.1 on the Richter scale and was even nearer the surface than last week's meaning greater chance of damage.
What is odd is that now Brown is better at the one liners but very poor when he is asked straight and simple questions about poor governance in relation to the failure of Doncaster social services. You would have thought that after the baby Peter case in Haringey Brown would know how to answer questions in a statesman like way, or is he simply unable to shake the partisan back biting politics even for a few minutes? It could well be that the mnister in charge of this area is completely inept and ought to have been sacked years ago. The way this panned out at PMQs it gives an impression (falsely) that he simply does not care about these children.
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#25
you are quite right. I personally have not been in full time employment since 1992! But because I have a modest private income, and small savings I am not 'entitled' to any unemployment payments. However, I used to sign on as I was looking for work, and they really don't want to know. It is also made very demeaning, and the atmosphere is appalling, accordingly I no longer 'sign on'. However, at the age of 60 I still pay taxes, I have now got two degrees, and would like to do something for society, but not for free. So, this summer, if the Met Office don't spoil it for me, I will sit on a beach in the westcountry getting a suntan, and hope that I don't contract Malignant Melanoma again!
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Andrew,
watching the debate on the Fiscal Responsibilty Bill. There are no labout back benchers, none, absolutely zero, this is a pathetic parliament, it serves no useful purpose.
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22 Blamegame
When you looked at the list of shareholders for Cadbury it was inevitable they would cash in.
This has been an ongoing gripe for me, where all our best companies particularly technology ones are being acquired and all the profitable work is taken back to the states or to lower cost centres.
New landlord very welcoming - thank heavens for Shakespeare
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What is all this nonsense about banning direct flights to and from the Yemen going to achieve? Has it escaped the government's attention that the Christmas Day Detroit bomber did NOT use direct flights?
Oh dear, and now a world summit on Yemen... yawn. Individual countries are not the problem: just maybe the lack of a cohesive strategy against terrorism is the real issue. Some joined up thinking perhaps? Since 9/11 more countries now have Al Quaeda strongholds or groups that have links to AQ - indeed this process has accelerated over the last two years.
Time for the spineless politicians to grow a pair and admit they have made mistakes. I am also unconvinced that the current brinkmanship being played out with Iran is either sensible or has any strategic value. The way it is shaping up, are the US and UK going to take on the whole of the Middle East, Afghanistan, Iran and the Taliban part of Pakistan in an all out "Crusade" against extremist muslims? Bonkers!
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ref 13 Ghosty
Nice one ghost ,no, these were thereal mocoys as seen in Jaws
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Speaking of extremists, has that atheist fundamentalist Professor Dawkins become the proverbial 'mad professor'? His latest obsession is, he claims, against children being labelled 'a catholic child', or 'a muslim child', or 'a methodist child'. It's completely baffling. I've been around a fair length of time and I can't recall any instances of children being referred to in this way. It's certainly not very common.
The puzzle is that it wouldn't really matter, in any concrete sense, even if it was more common. It wouldn't affect the children or the parents - it would only offend the delicate sensibilities of obsessives such as Dawkins.
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high unemployment, no new pay raises or salary increases and yet we have inflation....seems contray to economics. Could be those banking bonuses skewing the numbers. Big oil, big coal and banking will bleed every copper out that they can get....out of a sense of national pride you understand. Probably also has something to do with the debt. I assume the banks are loaning back to the government the money that is provided by taxpayers at an increased interest rate. Like the thief who gets caught and offers to sell you back the things they stold.
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For Labour and Tories to decide that 'the family' is the fighting ground for the next election just shows how out of touch and irrelevant both parties have become. They can argue about sausages for all I care, but unless they address the issues that concern people they are both likely to shed votes, and I couldn't be more delighted.
Perhaps they are struggling to spell out meaningful differences between themselves, and wish to select safe ground on which to fight. They agree on most of the major issues about which people care, and that inevitably leaves the door wide open to outsiders to operate. More fool them.
On the issue of Cadbury and RBS involvement I came across this disturbing allegation
"In a separate development, City bankers, who have asked not to be named, are claiming RBS is buying up loans held by foreign banks in order to meet government lending targets."
If this is true, it means that the taxpayer is paying outrageous bonuses to employees who are back to their fancy accounting to flout government directives. Bonuses ? - I'd sack the board for performing more outrageous games at our expense.
There should be no tolerance whatsoever for banks that continue to flout the will of government and operate for their own best interests whatever the cost to the country. Gordon is either a joke, or just behaves like one. Which is it ?
The bank directives were set out to enforce new lending commitments, not churn old ones. This 'smart Alec' behaviour got banks in a mess last time, it must be stamped on now, and those responsible brought to account to Parliament.
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Our two major parties want to talk happy families ?
That must be because they are congenitally stupid and mistakenly believe that the electorate are too. Let's talk about one of the matters neither party have fced - the banks
"A £2.5 billion loan said to have been given to a Russian oligarch by a British bank and then written off is an example of the alleged practices perpetrated by this country's major lenders which have prompted a surge of political anger."
It's always nice to hear of bank generosity, but I hardly believe that Russian oligarchs are deserving of our bounty. How much bonus was earned on that write off ?
"In some cases, only 20 per cent of bank lending was British-based, with the rest going abroad."
This should cause raised eyebrows, because there's no reason for UK banks make these loans unless it is tax efficient to do so, and that's the only reason for bankers to be so reluctant to leave our shores.
The concern may be that banks are benefitting from the implicit guarantee of the UK public (which costs them nothing) and may also be able to manage it so that the lending provides no benefit to the Exchequer. Effectively that means that UK tax payers take the risk to provide high risk foreign loans, and banks reap the profit.
I can't put it any better than this
"Tom Harris, a former minister, described British banks as "a national embarrassment".
He said: "We should be pointing our fingers more in the direction of the incompetent leeches who have conspired to bankrupt our banking system."
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Unless Cameron gets a grip of his own and his backbenchers' questions at PMQ's then the election is over and GB will reign again.
Allowing Gordon to mock him does DC no good at all as it goes down well in the Labour heartlands and Leftish media. Allowing him to rant at Tory policy or shadow front bench statements, unrestrained by a crap Speaker, similarly is hitting the Tories hard.
Whomsoever the Tory party is paying to be their Alister Campbell is clearly poor value for money. Wm Hague had the same problem!
Cameron et al are losing the next election, not Gordon winning it.
Can I sue, and if whom, if I am subjected to another 5 years of Gordon's brand of socialism?
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Gomer
It is hard to believe that we are allowing a government majority owned bank to finance a hostile takeover of a UK company, which will inevitably result in further UK unemployment.
It comes into the you could not make it up category...
How do the French and Germans protect their industry from globalisation?
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Andrew, at PMQ's today Gordon stated Job Centre Plus are getting 300,000 of unemployment list each month when answering a serious question about job losses at EON call centre, at that rate we will have full employment by August. Can ask him to check his figures please because somehow I do not believe it.
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Andrew,
surely the politicians and generals who are giving 'evidence' to Chilcot, are the perfect rationale behind extra-ordinary rendition, and enhanced interrogation techniques. Basically what I am advocating is that they all should be taken to a country far away, and then tortured, so that we can get at the 'truth' of the intervention in Iraq.
They have to understand fully the implications of what they have done, and got others to do in our name. There can be no doubt that there must be a trial, in the Hague, for these people. They have followed orders, I consider that international laws have been broken, or contravened.
Only yesterday Brown made a statement to the Commons on terrorism, and the border area between Afghanistan and Pakistan as being a 'crucible for terror', and then Kinnock makes her comments in the Lords, even if she is a Lady, not a Lord, but that's another issue.
There is a bizarre situation developing, where now we have to calculate the exchange rate before saying whether the government will protect us from terror on our streets. Does nobody understand how much money we are paying for mercenaries to protect our development workers, or private security firms, or Drones. We are now almost in the position where we haven't got enough money to bribe the locals to be quiet, it's called collaboration, and the Quizling Karzai will soon be at a 'conference' with Brown. I can just imagine the conversation, last year Gordon you gave me $2 million, now only $1.5 million because of the devaluation of the pound. Well I remember that Wilson fellow talking about the pound in your pocket!
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Andrew,
there is a very interesting on the Today programme this morning relating to China, and her 'growth'. Apparently the Bank of China, the State Bank, is stopping lending. Just like that. There is trouble brewing in the East, serious big trouble. No economy can grow like China, 10%, it just doesn't work. Trust me, it is beginning to unravel, big time, remember lagflation!
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Andrew,
good Morning. People have to understand that there has come the time when people who took the money, and carried on doing their 'job' are now in trouble. They had an inkling that something was wrong and the reason why they didn't ask questions was because if they were given the answer which they thought that they might be given, it would mean that they could not plead that they were following orders , or they didn't know what was going on. An accusation which could be levelled at journalists with their exclusives, or paid foreign trips.
The Foreign Secretary has blown it with the failed coup. If we had information then, which we now have as revealed by Kinnock yesterday in her speech in the Lords, then he would have been perfectly justified in taking a stand on principle, but he didn't, so we still have the Scot Brown as PM.
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Andrew,
when will other serious experts understand that the umpteenth Great Depression started in 1987, with the big crash. It was then that governments blinked, 9/11 isn't important, 9/15 the day that Lehmans collapsed is much more relevant. Is nobody out there listening! I seriously think that the lunatics have succeeded in taking over the asylum, the easy ride is over, this is helter skelter with a vengeance. People will ask why did nobody say anything, how did this come to pass? How many people who know 'stuff' are staying silent because they don't want to lose out, they don't want to compromise their career, they are thinking if I speak out, be a whistle blower, then I am doomed, so they stay silent. Just like in Nazi Germany. That doesn't mean they are Nazis or fascists, it just means that they are, actually, quite stupid! We've become a country which has gone collectively mad. Surely, it can't be the lead pipes in the Roman viaducts!
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after a month in south Africa I am tempted to sellup and pull the plug on the UK
S-Africa is a lovely place and I can understand why so many Brits have moved there.
The biggest problem appears to be crime but what's new!?
I love the place
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Andrew,
I think that there is no doubt that the Iraq war was about regime change. Now, 'buff' Hoon, as he was known in the military circles at the time of the invasion, has been active in a coup against Gordon Brown, anybody disagree, no ok then I will continue. So when is a coup to overthrow the legitimate head of a government, regime change, and when is it a coup? I personally have no doubt that Brown engineered a coup against Blair, regime change, but without spilling his own blood, or anybody elses.
Brown never has had any legitimacy. He is the PM of a government which bleats that we must not jeopardise the recovery, yet they have raised VAT, they are raising income tax, and they are raising national insurance, and yet the recovery has not yet been established! Lunacy, absolute lunacy. He makes a statement in the Commons, and then Kinnock makes a statement in the Lords, which exposes the reality of the situation. Where are the conservatives, if only there was a Liberal Social Democratic party, then I would take a trip with them.
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#53,
then why not stay there, stop running this wonderful country of ours down, start backing Britain, or get out. There must be a complete and total ban on any immigration, but no restrictions on emigration, total freedom to do anything we like, come on England, we can win the world cup, we've got the Olympics and we must make everybody welcome, what nobody coming, a boycott on the Olympics, surely not!
May I suggest that we bring back the Exchange Control Act, with the Dollar Premium, nobody should be allowed to take too much money out of the economy. Raise taxes to 98%, negative interest rates for those savers. It's time for radical action, it's time for, oh dear it's those men in white coats at the door again...Everything's great, get a grip Griffin, ah now you all know who I am, come on Taggy, we'll have to put an injunction on you for telling the truth!
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44. GomerP
"In a separate development, City bankers, who have asked not to be named, are claiming RBS is buying up loans held by foreign banks in order to meet government lending targets."
GP, where did you see this, any link? Ta.
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I'm coming to the conclusion that Cameron is weak and pathetic, probably too scared of upsetting his won ranks to launch any attack on Gordon.
For heaven's sake, I could rip chunks out of Gordon at PMQ's. It feels like watching Joe Bugner come in to the ring - all that expectation of success but the same pitiful result. It's time for Cameron to grow a spine and force his party to back him on a direct confrontation, to the hopeless shambles that faces him across on the other side.
I really can't believe that we could end up voting back in to power the party that functions as the operations department of banking interests, and if Cameron can't attack on this front, I must suspect he won't change anything.
I want a government that supports Britain - not banks, and both main parties want to dodge the issue, talking drivel about families. That's such a cop out, i really feel that it's unbelievably pathetic.
We are lumbered with a disastrous government and an absent opposition. At present I wouldn't even consider voting for Cameron tactically, to keep Gordon out. At present we are not viewing a confrontation of ideologies, but merely a choice of similar flavours. I reject both of them and want a choice.
Choosing to fight the war on terror in some far flung country with the might and expense of our armed forces, was such a stupid idea, I'm dumbfounded. Whatever threat we faced, was it worth the lives lost and ruined so far ? All the terrorist needs is a plane ticket and some parts from a DIY store, and mobilising our army isn't the answer, not when we are then obliged to pour funds into their home country, undoubtedly funding the terrorists we seek to eliminate.
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Good morning each & Andrew.
My thoughts drift back a few years to my youth. At my first opportunity of voting in a general election one question seemed to sum the whole thing up.
"Who is to govern, the elected Government or the unions? (miners mostly as I recall)
I bit the bullet and voted for [how cheek-reddening it all is] Ted Heath, he that posed the question.
Things are much the same this time around.
Who is to govern? The elected Government or the bankers.
My answer today is much the same as that first time, except; the big-two parties are content to kow-tow to bankers and wish to have the backing of the public for this, the stance of both main partys.
Now IS the time for the electorate to stand up for true Democracy. The time is NOW for the electorate to put the common-weal above all else. No longer can we be content to elect mere ambassadors to the court of banking. Cometh the time, cometh the man?
Not Balls by name, but by nature!
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58.
Vote Brown, get Balls.
Vote Cameron, get no balls.
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#59 NameGame?
Vote for youself, for your community, vote for the future of Democracy, but most of all, Vote!
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Andrew
The Telegraph is reporting today that the National Association of Muslim Police say that radical Islam is not a driver of terrorism.
Apart from wondering why there is any need for such an organisation in this country, I doubt a white english police organisation would be tolerated, what world do these people live in.
I hope you will be getting one of them on your programme and challenging them about their statements which as far as I can see can only serve to undermine efforts defeat terrorism and the radicalisation of Muslim youth.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Why can we not stop beating about the bush. If our deficit is £180B, and we want to reduce it by 50% in four years, we need to cut the deficit by £22.5B per year. If, by some miracle, we could maintain this performance for 8 years, the deficit would have come down to zero, but in the meantime our national debt would have risen by £630B. This means tht in order to get back to the level of national debt we have today, we would have to keep going for a further 28 years, or 6 or 7 parliaments.
This analysis does not include any allowance for growrh, which our treasury and Alistair Darling naively believes will continue to be 3.5%, based on nothing more than history, but certainly not on reality.
The longer we kid ourselves that a 50% reduction in deficit is something to be proud of, the worse it will get.
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Try again as the Mods are over sensitive today:
Andrew
Any comment on why our "over worked" MPs have just voted themselves a 12 day holiday from 10 February 2010 to 22 February 2010?
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64. At 2:34pm on 21 Jan 2010, excellentcatblogger wrote:
Try again as the Mods are over sensitive today:
Andrew
Any comment on why our "over worked" MPs have just voted themselves a 12 day holiday from 10 February 2010 to 22 February 2010?
--------------------
I can....it's school half term week and it's the peak skiing period!
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I'm all for the Muslim police officers association's comments, as they do highlight the rather schizophrenic behaviour and policies of the government.
By the way, I do hope that the organisation is open to membership by all races and religions, though their title may indicate otherwise. Members of the police force should have some knowledge of the law, especially if they intend to set up neo-political pressure groups within their ranks.
Ostensibly our troops are in Afganistan, suffering casualties, for the purpose of fighting terrorism which threatens our shores, so we are told. I think it would be hard for anyone to consider that such a threat from Afghanistan can arise from anyone other than Muslims, but I'm open to persuasion.
Considering that this is government policy, to have a contrary opinion from a 'cabal' within the police force is worrying. Do we now have a breakaway group forming within the police ? The problem arises because Labour foreign and domestic policy simply don't match, and if there is no terrorist threat, then our troops should be withdrawn from Afghanistan immediately. No one will support military action there, if there is no imminent risk to our country.
I'm glad that the association have asked the question, but it isn't their job to do it.
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ref 55catch 22/ taggy
And I thought u were my buddy
The wonderful in the I'm has been missing for several years
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Inflation on the rise while the government continues to print money is certainly a worry, but Gordon knows it soon won't be his problem.
Another example of Labour's scorched earth policy.
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I think we should outsource our Government to the Chinese. They would do a better job and cost us significantly less money!
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Exxon2:
Interesting how many, regardless of political leaning, have decided to abandon the West. Unresponsive political systems, corrupt businesses and media intent of dividing everyone to make money, are but a few motivations. I see the trend continuing and populations shifting in many places. Voting with your feet. The Chinese have been doing this for a couple of centuries or so. Not sure it will change anything but individuals are seeking less stress and a better environment with less confrontation and competition on a daily basis. Enjoy your life who knows where you will live your next one.
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"President Obama seeks sweeping bank reforms"
About blinking (not the word I would choose myself) time. Why has Gordon the Diminutive fought tooth and nail to avoid similar action when everyone knows it had to be done ?
The good thing is that it will expose Gordon for the ineffective and bank hugging stooge who would rather bankrupt the country rather than see a banker go without champagne and fast cars.
I may have trouble holding on to my dinner as Gordon performs an almighty U turn and then lectures us on how it was all his idea. I'm not impressed that Cameron's supposed support for these measures has been so well hidden. What I've heard on the news is that the new measures will contain all the measures that I, and many others, have been calling on for ages. The most mind boggling apect, is that banks have blithely continued in their bad habits without considering that they were only sealing their fate.
Lord Mandelson may not be getting so many mouth watering dinner dates, but I'm sure the Russians will ensure he doesn't spend too many evenings all alone.
I want to see Gordon and Cameron bidding to see who goes furthest in slicing up the banks. The way things are going, I may vote Obama at the next election. He appears a darn sight more Socialist than Gordon.
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gomer @ 66
"The problem arises because Labour foreign and domestic policy simply don't match"
That's very true. But let's adjust Foreign Policy in line with Domestic (shall we?) not try and do it the other way round.
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#67
Go on just give me a big hug when you get back to sunny Exeter, with our wonderful MP, Ben Bradshaw, he of the rebuilt PFI High schools. Oh, and the Met Office! with their fantastic ability to be able to forecast the weather with their beautiful expensive computer system.
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Lord Myner (the man who notoriously made a whoopsie over a certain compensation package at RBS) has just claimed that the UK is leading the field in bank regulation.
This line is left free for uproarious laughter.
Now Cameron - if you have any gumption, backbone or competence, this is your chance to skewer Gordon for his decision to bankrupt the nation in favour of banks. Act now, or forever be condemned as merely leader of a second string Tory party, ;eaving Gordon free to act as the Tory party elect.
The open goal awaits you David. You just need the willpower to kick the ball. Playing fields of Eton ? Better than the bistros of Threadneedle Street where Gordon's cabinet appear to hang out.
We always tamely follow the US, and this time there is actually a moral reason to do so. It exposes Gordon, and I expect he'll be scrambling to fall in line, so David won't have much time to act. Of both parties try to avoid action, then my decision to cast both aside is reinforced.
# 72 - sagamix = Pakistan have announced that they won't be taking any more military action this year, which means that North Waziristan remains a safe haven for the Taliban/Al-Quaida. It also removes the argument that our soldiers in Afghanistan are somehow protecting Pakistan. Pakistan clearly feels that no such threat exists. It also makes trying to establish a stable government in Afghanistan impossible.
If Pakistan doesn't choose to become part of the solution - it is then part of the problem.
I think we can agree sagamix, that our soldiers in Afghanistan are risking their lives for no achievable purpose. I respect the soldiers and their commitment to duty, but not the policy that sent them there. Their losses are a tragedy.
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Gomer,
Sure thing.
I'd like to see 3 developments:
1. End the foreign adventures - mainly Afghanistan.
2. Guard against Islamophobia at home. Treat Muslims just like anyone else. Equality under the Law.
3. Get cracking, in any way we can, on helping to fix the Palestinian issue. A running sore. Limit to what we can do, since it's mainly about the US and Israel, but still.
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Andrew,
you have been quite brilliant as usual. Tonight it becoming apparent that as some of us were demanding, even before Clegg, that of course Brown must give his 'evidence' to Chilcot before an general elction, in fact as soon as possible.
I think however, that Chilcot is not going as far as he should. There must be questions asked about extra-ordinary rendition, about enhanced interrogation techniques, but most importantly of all what was the status of British troops who were operating in conjunction with the American allies when detaining individuals who subsequently suffered what I have no doubt was illegal treatment.
This is a serious iussue, because they can't plead that they were following orders because after Nurembourg following orders was not a valid defence. It must be acknowledged that there are serious concerns as to the legal status of our actions. It is all right for Straw to say that it was one of the hardest decisions he ever had to make, consider the soldiers who had to fight, to protect the local people, the soldiers who have the real blood on their hands.
I am glad that Chilcot is calling Brown, but whether he will add to the sum of human knowledge on this contentious issue is a mute point. We must be given a date for his appearance, and I still await seeing the documents, they must be released into the public domain, as soon as possible. It's not only Brown, its the documents.
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Andrew,
listening to Question Time discussing the wearing of the Burkha, and the possibility that France may well ban women from wearing it.
Liam Byrne was talking and I suddenly thought what on earth would happen to a male MP who liked wearing shorts and t-shirts, with open sandals, and a scarf, with dark glasses, who tried to sit in the commons during PMQs. When people say it is wrong to ban this that or the other, then consider the convention of what an MP can wear in the Commons.
Now Sarah Teather was also on QT. Now I used to work in Saudi Arabia, and I will tell Sarah now that if she tried to walk around Riyhadh wearing such a low cut top, she would be detained by the religious police, and possibly just beaten up, as I saw the result of some women who went out without wearing the appropriate clothing.
I would not agree with banning the Burkha, but what I would say is that there are those who wear it from free choice in Britain, they should consider living in a country where they do not have a choice, that they would be forced to wear it, or other women forced to wear it, against their free will.
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Andrew,
what I would do with the banks, and broking houses, is to make illegal short selling, and stock lending. Simples. Also make all trades cash settlement, like they are with government bonds.
As for some who think that the British Government has never defaulted on its obligations then all I would say to these ignorant experts is that the British Government has, when they did not repay War Loan when it was due in either 1928 or 1929. They just made it irredeemable.
Finally, there is something called matched deals, where you can only sell if there is a buyer, cut out the middle man. Now that is what would really wake them all up.
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Andrew,
listened to the Today programme this morning and thought that it was very interesting that it is now suggested that of course, if Brown is to give evidence, then so must of course Mr Blix. I mean it is absolutely inconcievable that Blix should not give evidence.
Let me give you a bit of inside information. I was living in Exeter at the time of the lead up to the war. I 'helped' the NHS having been a committee member on the local Community Health Council, and also used to sit in on various internal meetings with the local major hospital to discuss cleanliness, and food, 'stuff' like that.
I used to meet with senior administrators, and nurses. There was one particular meeting before the Iraq invasion. A senior nurse could not attend, she was away. Why was she away, because she was at a hospital in a major military town, training with other nurses as to how to cope with all the anticipated casualties resulting fromn the invasion.
I mean to say that it is not only the direct military who were involved in the planning for war. At the time of major problems with the NHS, scarce resources were preparing for war. There are just so many people who knew that the train was on the move, so many people who knew that once the troops on the move there could be no stopping the juggernaught of war. The cheques had been already signed, call the Minister of Health.
Did there not used to be a programme called 'Call my Bluff', where there was a person on the panel called Lady Isobel Barnet, she was caught shop lifting and finally committed suicide from the shame. I hope that the interest in Iraq will not result in a death, oh that's right Dr David Kelly did commit suicide, didn't he!
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Andrew,
there were reports in the paper of the two children from Doncaster who did some pretty terrible things to fellow human beings. The jury were apparently shown video footage of the attacks. I understand that some of them wept.
My point, before Blair gives his 'evidence', for what it will be worth, maybe the inquiry ought to show Blair the pictures of a dead soldier who has been blown apart by a suicide bomber, or who has had his head shot off by a high velocity rifle, in all probability a rifle supplied by the 'allies' to a local being trained to be a reformed soldier.
Blair never really has to see the result of his actions, the death and mayhem he and Bush, and others who remained silent, have caused. Blair, Bush, and so many others have blood on their hands. They gave the orders, call Blix to Chilcot. Maybe even Chirac, so that he can say why he would not vote in favour of a UN resolution. Maybe it all is poker, bluff, don't blink. Surely France did not want to vote in favour of a second UN because of the lucrative contracts which France had, and who stood to lose all the money they had 'invested' just look up the oil for food programme.
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Andrew,
I have worked in Saudi Arabia. If I lived permanently in that country then I would cover myself from head to toe. I would actually pass a law that everybody covered themselves from head to toe in the sun, has anybody been in a dust storm, or suffered Malignant Melonoma.
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Andrew,
evidence given to Chilcot on the 9th December 2009:-
SIR RODERIC LYNE: If we carry that forward into the first
four months of 2002, and particularly after
President Bush's Axis of Evil speech, was this cloud
beginning to appear on the horizon? Were you beginning
to have to think about it a bit more then?
LORD BOYCE: Yes, and, of course, Afghanistan itself was
settling down, if I can use that expression, in terms of
getting the ISAF mobilised and in place.
Now my point here is that Brown keeps going on about our reasons for being in Afghanistan is that it is to keep terror off the streets of Britain, sorry 'my country'.
May I suggest that because of the re-allocation of resources from Afghanistan to Iraq that it is because of that that we are in the dire state which we are.
I mean Lord Boyce 'Afghanistan was settling down', what on earth would be the death rate if Afghanistan had not settled down. That is why I find it absolutely pathetic that Brown reads out the names of the dead every wednesday, and yes I am angry, this is all about Harry, with his 'we do bad things to bad people'. He's grandson of the monarch, the Head of State, who went around wearing an American soldiers cap. Shame on him, shame on the media for being complicit in the press cover-up.
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#75 saga
"Treat Muslims just like anyone else. Equality under the Law."
Would that be Sharia or British law?
Equality works both ways. Of course Muslims should be treated equally - like Christians, Hindus, Atheists, Jews etc. But they should also be expected to regard everyone else as equals. This appears to be not the case for some Muslims. That's why, unfortunately, suspicion has been generated, which unfairly affects all of them. There remains much to be done in this area.
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very interesting indistial tribunal this week in London please do a google search under Mick Dooley v Balfour Beaty (BB) and the involvement of Special Branch ((SB)
Taggy you will be interested in this
Decion expected in 4weeks.
Still no publication on the IT decision on Dr Otto Chan??!!
Last day in South Africa today what's the weather like guys?no point in contacting the met office
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Andrew,
now hang on a minute about Brown attending Chilcot. There is the problem as to what Brown said yesterday during PMQs, did he not say that he had actually already contacted Chilcot whereas Chilcot said that he wrote to Brown, and that Brown has responded this morning. Were there no telephone conversations before the letters. I'm sorry but I just so do not trust Brown. There must be a general election in March! Or will Brown call an election just before he is due to give his 'evidence'.
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Andrew,
I have just reviewed what Brown said at PMQs with reference to Chilcot. He said 'I have written to Sir John Chilcot' now when exactly did he write his letter to Sir John, date and time? and can we assume that it was typed, or was it hand written and did he get Sir Jhon Chilcotts' name write!
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Andrew,
you kept me up very late last night, of course PMQs was on wednesday, its hard work this 24/7 news society.
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Andrew,
have just been to the BBC News site with regard to Brown:
A spokesman for the inquiry confirmed that Sir John Chilcot had written to the prime minister on Thursday, saying the panel would be "happy to offer him the opportunity" to appear before the election and that it planned to make the letter public on Friday morning.
Now I am getting confused. Who did write to whom and when, can we have the sequence, and confirm any phone conversations between the PMs Office, and Chilcot, or any of his administartion team, which were held since last weeks PMQs.
All the time we are being told that nobody asked questions or spoke out in the lead up to the war, well I have learnt a lesson which others may have done as well. Too many questions, well so be it, but if you don't ask you don't get!
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#84
'very interesting' as you say boss. It is getting very much like the Laugh in Show, 'very interesting' he said in a mock German accent. Ah the good old days of very stupid humor.
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Lord Myners gives new meaning to the expression 'blithering idiot' when he claims that Obama's proposals are broadly in line with Gordon's intentions. It's not as if he hasn't demonstrated the length and breadth of his incompetence before, in the manner in which he handled RBS, a disaster unrivalled in modern banking history.
Lord Mandelson must be apopleptic at the effect any action would have on his social life, but it's going to be pretty obvious where Labour's true affinities lie if they prefer to retain bonus sodden banks in the state to which they have become accustomed. So much for Gordon disapprovong of benefits for the few. He singles out the super rich for priveleged treatment.
I can't say that Osborne's reaction is much more than a damp squib, in saying that international agreement must be sought. Apart from missing an opportunity to go for the jugular, it also represents a cop out.
Though I have been less than impressed with Lord Pearson's performance as UKIP leader on recent TV appearances, he appears muddled and confused, they appear much less contaminated by the status quo than our usual suspects. It's hard not too get the feeling that we are very badly served by all our leaders in industry and politics at present, and I hold none of them in high esteem.
So far I would say that Gordon and Cameron have both done their election chances damage with their current electioneering attempts. Perhaps neither of them really have the stomach to take over the mess after the next election.
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Andrew
Very interesting debate on Question Time last night. Two things that caught my attention were comments from Liam Byrne
1 He was talking about the right to a trial by your peers.
Would you remind him Andrew that he is a member of a Government that removed the right to trial by jury in some instances.
2 He was talking about people being allowed to wear hoods in this country.
Would you remind him Andrew he is a member of a Government whos organisations, in this case Jobcentre's, ban people from wearing them.
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If the Tories just took a holiday they would win the next election, but it seems that they are not content with that, and are desperate to do their bit to destroy their chances. It has to be said that Osborne is somewhat hopeless and I'd criticise his proposals if there didn't appear to be two sets, of diametrically opposed design.
Someone should point out to the Tories that if they can't win this election, then they can't win anything, probably not even an internal leadership poll.
I'd have hoped that Gordon, who usually trots after Obama like a love sick puppy (whether it be to war or on a climactic crusade), might follow his natural instinct and comprehend that standing alone on planet earth as the man who likes to say yes to banks, is not a popular position on which to rest his robust hindquarters.
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Good afternoon each & Andrew.
#92 GomerPyle
This election is not about Red or Blue or even Yellow or Purple.
It is ALL about us. We--the--people. The choice is ours. It cannot, again, be about which Party promises the most 'goodies', but must be about the future and indeed the re-building of Democracy. This work cannot be done in Westminster, this job is to be done at the ballot by the electorate. The people must be the victors this time around.
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Andrew
It was interesting to hear Dianne Abbott say last night that on This Week that Gordon Brown was intent on ramming through voting reform by amending current legislation before the General Election.
Voting reform as defined by politicians is an attempt to grab power from the people in order to sustain themselves in power amid the stinking and sordid corruption of their taxpayer funded gold plated expense driven lifestyles.
This lot have NO right to change our voting system. Its time tjhey backed off.
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mike @ 83
"But they should also be expected to regard everyone else as equals"
That goes for everybody. But you can't force people to think in a certain way. All you can do is treat people equally under the law. Any departure whatsoever from that is unacceptable.
British law, I mean. Sharia law is not relevant to the UK.
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#94
Sounds brave. Who do we vote for?
Please don't say "Any independent". He/she might be a weirdo further to the right of the BNP or further to the left of Stalin. And how is he/she - assuming they're reasonable - going to get any of their ideas through in a Tower of Babel? Certainly not by reasoned argument.
You know the old saying that a camel is horse designed by a committee. I dread to contemplate the policies pushed through by several hundred independents. Camels would look acceptably like horses in comparison.
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#96 mike-jay
Did you mean my #93?
1. The people shall choose.
I hope that this time all will turnout to vote.
2. (given 1 above) No votes will be wasted and if we all can tear our eyes away from the usual suspects Democracy can be discovered again.
No, not just any old independent. I am sure that, as we speak, many thinking of standing will be getting themselves geared-up for a seminar in Birmingham hosted by the Independent Network...
http://independentstogether.blogspot.com/
This time around serious consideration is being given to give the electorate real choice, not the usual toss-up between Red and Blue.
As each will be standing with much the same platform and with the same will to win and realise real Democracy for all of us there shall be something of a singular purpose from day one.
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#96
P.S.
Camels ARE the horses for much of this world.
And we know only too well just what can happen when a Party Leader gets a bee in his bonnet, do we not?
The truth surely is that Democracy should be hard work. Hard work for us up to the election and hard work for those who we elect after the election.
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#95 saga
Thoughts, kept to yourself, are OK. Preaching or openly demonstrating contempt and condemnation of the 'decadent' liberal society you've chosen to live in is not OK. Insulting soldiers defending your country is not OK. Using teaching materials and texts that are subversive is not OK. Attempting to blow up innocent fellow citizens is not OK. All of these things - and others - have applied to small numbers in recent times. They throw a spanner in the aims of 'equality' and damage everyone - not least their own communities.
Do members of other specific religions repeatedly behave in such ways?
Reference to Sharia was a touch of irony.
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# 95
Not so sagamix. Shariah tribunals currently operate and their judgements are enforceable through county courts, and that has already lead to some bizarre situations, which have been attempts to usurp the presedence of UK law.
It's quite canny, if not fundamentally barmy, to attempt to justify repression as a freedom that Briton should permit a segment of the community to perform within its own confines. The problem is that certain forces within Islam wish the Muslim community to remain separate and divided from the community at large. This provides them with a political base from which to push their own extreme agendas.
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#100 GP
I think it is also true that sections of the Judaic community opperate their own courts.
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#97, 98 TA
Yes, it should have been #93. Sorry.
The Independent Network, and 'much the same platform' sounds rather like a new party in the offing. Will it elect a leader? If, by chance, a majority of independents were elected, how would a Cabinet be chosen and how would its policies be determined? How would the electorate be informed of these policies before the election so that they could make rational decisions on where to put their crosses? How would Cabinet policies be carried through the HoC - or would it simply be a free-for-all?
Hard work? Certainly. But possibly leading nowhere.
The old saying presumably refers to the generally accepted concept of a horse and a camel.
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I am wondering, as Catch22 has mentioned, how on earth Brown is going to manage if he has to attend the Chilcot Enquiry. He seems barely able to answer questions without notes.
When he does attend PMQ's he either has to brush any questions aside with political swipes at the opposition or refer to past glories because the truth is, at best, failure of policies.
The upcoming televised debates between the Political parties with be "themed" so he will be able to envisage what answers he may need and it will probably be very stilted.
Methinks maybe a March election is on the cards, but he will still, at some point, have to attend the enquiry - can't help thinking I wont be able to watch for sheer embarrassment!
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98. Tom Austin
P.S.
Camels ARE the horses for much of this world.
And we know only too well just what can happen when a Party Leader gets a bee in his bonnet, do we not?
Disastrous. Like a bull in a china shop. Might seem like a fly in the ointment to some though.
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# 101
Tom Austin - yes I'm aware of that, and it appears that they are able to keep themselves under control. For some reason Muslim groups seem unable to do the same. If push comes to shove I see no reason for religion to play any part in law and education, as our society is largely secular nowadays, which is why we are so tolerant of other religions, ironically. If they had come here a few hundred years earlier, being the wrong type of Christian would have been enough to see them persecuted.
Islamic lectures on Human Rights and freedom of worship and speech are listened to with benign amusement, by me anyway. Being told you aren't British enough by someone who might re-introduce the death penalty for being an apostate, is rather peculiar, to say the least. We have a proud history of religious intolerance behind us, of which we are often reminded, so attempting to find fault with us by means of rare praise is pretty thin as an argument.
Any religion that has difficulty existing within our secular society is going to have to adapt. I don't foresee much chance of change the other way.
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Andrew
I hear Ben Bradshaw is on the "voting reform" bandwagon. Apparently he wants a paving motion passed in this Parliament to "bind the hands" of a future Govt to hold a referendum on it.
Can you please explain to him since he clearly doesnt know that NO Parliament in our country can bind the hands of a future Parliament.
If he doesnt know that why in Gods name is he an MP.
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101
Judaic courts generally deal in strictly religious matters for example whether a product or restaurant can be classified as kosher. They also dealing with "who is a Jew" disputes, conversion to Judaism and some related matrimonial matters. The power to grant a "get" (a religious divorce) has effectively been taken out of their hands. None of this affects British civil law which remains supreme.
We Jews are fully assimilated and integrated into British life, respect the Queen and obey the law but maintain our own traditions without forcing them down anybody else's throats. Fanatics are very few and troublemakers are reported to the police.
Would that all communities acted like we Jews or the other fully integrated communities such as the Indians and Chinese.
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Regarding Sharia Law, I know it "exists" in the UK in the sense that private individuals can opt to resolve a non criminal matter, using a Code in which they both believe. So what? I can do this too. We all can. It's voluntary. It's outside our legal system, not a replacement for it. If it's gone further, so that a "Sharia Law" verdict can be legally binding - even against the wishes of one or more of the people affected - then that would be an unfortunate development. But I doubt whether this is strictly true.
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mike @ 99
On your examples of "Not Okay" behaviour:
1. Preaching or openly demonstrating contempt and condemnation of the 'decadent' liberal society you've chosen to live in.
Rude but not against the law. Do you want a new law? Or are you just expressing your distaste? If it's the first, I disagree - the second, I share.
2. Insulting soldiers defending your country.
Many people in the UK see the soldiers more in the way of attackers (and occupiers) than defenders. But, still, yes, insulting them personally is a poor show.
3. Using teaching materials and texts that are subversive.
Don't know what you mean by this.
4. Attempting to blow up innocent fellow citizens.
Straightforward crime. Catch, arrest, trial, prison.
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#109 saga
Those points were mentioned not in relation to breaking laws or demanding new laws, but to illustrate how difficult it is to see as equals those who clearly don't see you in the same light. (refer back to #83). In a sense, it's a question of mutual respect. Technically you can reduce it to legalities, but psychologically it has its effects.
Example 3, which puzzled you, referred to the case of the Islamic school that was eventually forced to remove or destroy books or teaching literature that was deemed to be unacceptable (about a year ago, I think).
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# 108
The wonders of google.
I've been doing some research sagamix, and it appears that domestic violence is included in matters they can handle, which I take to be a part of criminal law.
If you have any idea of a woman's place as a second class citizen under Shariah law, it's rather hypocritical to commend it as anything other than institutionalisng Muslim women as an underclass.
I must check, but I believe that one of these courts issued a fatwah to say that Muslim weddings shouldn't be registered under UK law, which demotes women to an even more lowly position, equally discriminated against under UK law. What UK law giveth the Shariah take away.
Do you know anything about a woman's rights within a Muslim marriage under Shariah law ? It would be more appropriate to say that they had few, and by suggesting they shouldn't register the marriage under UK law, that is clearl designed to make sure it stays that way.
Appointing phoney courts to remove UK and EC human rights from one section of the community is palpably disgraceful and despicable.
I'll see if I can find that fatwa. That would be outrageous if true.
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gp @ 111
What I'm doubting (and indeed hope to be untrue) is that Sharia rulings are legally binding. That's key. If they are, I have a problem. If they aren't, I don't.
I know that women are treated as second class citizens by some Muslims. I massively disapprove. I further know that women are treated as second class citizens by some non Muslims. Also massively disapprove. But we have our laws - which cover domestic violence, for example - and we are all of us governed by these laws. That's how it should be, anyway.
But if it turns out, say, that a Muslim woman can be abused by her husband and - because she's a Muslim, and because of Sharia - she does NOT have the same right to go to the police as any other woman, then I will have to think again.
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# 112 Yes sagamix - their judgements are enforceable through County Courts and the High Court and they can make use of bailiffs where necessary.
This comment sums up my concerns
"Muslims will be under enormous pressure to accept the Muslim courts for arbitration of disputes - including family law disputes. Advocates for the Islamic tribunals have argued that one of the beauties of free and open societies in the west is their flexibility. But the very same ‘flexibility” provides the Islamists with the opportunity to impose their own rigid and oppressive rules on a specific community in the society"
The performance of Lord Pearson on Newsnight concerned me greatly as he appeared confused and was faced by a Muslim female displaying very unIslamic behaviour for a woman. He didn't seem to notice, and didn't take issue with the statement that a free society like the UK should allow practices that do/might restrict the rights of some sections of society - irrespective of what one opionated individual may contend.
The comment continues
"On religious grounds, a Muslim who would choose to opt out (of the tribunal process) … would be guilty of a far greater crime than a mere breach of contract – and this would be tantamount to blasphemy or apostasy”. You are aware that blasphemy and apostasy are among the worst crimes in Islam, in many countries punishable by death."
I doubt that the tribunals will last long, simply because Shariah law is not compatible with with UK and EU law and doesn't represent natural Western justice, and the likes of Mr Choudary will always be seeking to usurp it for the promulgation of their own cranky ideas.
The risky foundation on which these tribunals are based, the subordination of females, makes all their rulings fair game to be overturned on the grounds of coercion, which could make their existence a farce.
We do not have to subordinate one section of the community, at the whim of another, to prove to them that we are a fair and tolerant society. To that I reply 'come off it'.
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Gomer, I'm still not entirely clear. Are you saying that Muslim women do not enjoy the same legal rights (here in the UK) as others? Or is it that they DO but they are nevertheless subjected to things which are legal, but distasteful. A legal issue or a cultural issue (?) is I think what I'm getting at.
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Andrew,
woke up this morning to the 'news' that the terror threat has been raised. Now there is a surprise, Afghan conference on Thursday, Blair to attend Chilcot on Friday. Surely no coincidence, almost total lock down in London. Don't even think about holding a demonstration against Blair before, during, or after Chilcot.
Next thing you know there will be another outbreak of foot and mouth just before the general elction which must be held before June this year. Surely, not even this lot would say that we can't hold the general election because of the terror threat! Or maybe that awful bird flu might return, or swine flu, the list is endless. This has become a very strange country indeed it has! As you brilliantly head this piece, a harbinger of things to come.
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Andrew,
when I used to be responsible for producing our valuations at the bank there was one thing which caused the other managers a bit of a problem. They really did not understand at first about contingent liability.
This is where you may 'invest' in an Option, and show a massive profit, but it was purely a notional profit, there was a contingent liability.
One of the problems is that Brown continually went on about 'Investment' not spending. Now Merchant Banks, became Investment Banks. Now therefore many of us used to think that when Brown went on about 'Investment' he really meant 'Spending'. Do others see the problem, you can't really have both the Investment Bank investing, and the Government Investing, but really spending. So to describe a Merchant Bank as an Investment Bank would seem an oxymoron, surely the Investment Bank must be described as a 'spending' bank, because they don't apparently Invest, they Spend, and of course nobody should ever be confused as to what is spending and that which is investing, exactly when does spending become investing.
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Andrew,
Hansard 5th March 2003:-
'Lord Fowler My Lords, I have only a minute or so in which to end the debate. I should like to thank everyone who has taken part. We have had 16 speeches from the Back Benches, which I cannot now go through, but they were all excellent.
Twice the Minister raised with me the question of the £5 billion pension tax and what we intend to do about it. It is interesting that Ministers are at last asking about the policy of the next Conservative government; I welcome that. I am clear that it should be a policy aim to restore the tax advantage. That should be our aim. I am in no doubt about that; I hope that the Minister will note it. I must enter the caveat that Gordon Brown always mentioned before the 1997 election: obviously it depends on what kind of economy we inherit'.
Note well the final sentence. All the conservatives have to keep saying is that 'it depends on what kind of economy we inherit', I think that labout have been conducting a scorched earth policy with regard to the economy. There will be nothing left! There will be no economy, well not as I know it.
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Andrew,
I have just done a quick search in Hansard for March 2003, the month of the Iraq invasion. Do you know who said absolutely nothing, I can find nothing at all by a certain individual who goes by the name of Gordon Brown. Nothing, nobody asked the question 'how will you fund the war?' Is it not amazing that I can find nothing by the then Chancellor of Exchequer that can be quoted back in that Month. Amazing absolutely amazing.
In the meantime you know that I refer to extra-ordinary rendition, and enhanced inetrrogation techniques, that is torture, I notice that a new word seems to have entered the lexicon, coercion, nice try but should Blair be coerced on Friday when he gives his 'evidence'. Can't wait! As for Brown!
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#106
I thought that you just might be interested in a reference from Hansard dated April 3rd 2003 from a certain Ben Bradshaw:
Mr. Bradshaw With respect to my hon. Friend, I do not accept his use of the terminology "a conquering force". We will be a liberating force, and we already are in the parts of Iraq in which the Iraqi people are sufficiently confident to speak freely and where they feel safe from retribution from Saddam's henchmen. My hon. Friend should look at the model of Afghanistan. Of course, our input and that of the international community was important to help the Afghan people to set up their conference and institutions such as the Loya Jirga, but such things were based firmly on Afghan traditions and practices. I can assure him that the same applies in Iraq. It is not in our interests to be perceived as trying to tell the Iraqi people how they should run their country once they have been liberated. In comparison with Afghanistan, Iraq has not only good natural resources but a highly educated work force and 4 million highly educated people in exile. Many may want to return to help with the redevelopment of their country.
I wonder if Bradshaw with his 'we should look at the model of Afghanistan' will be attending the Brown conference on Afghanistan, where he could possibly enter into a conversation with Quizling Karzai as to how well the model is working nowadays. I believe it is because scarce resources were diverted from Afghanistan to Iraq that the problems we have today are obvious. Maybe when Blair goes before Chilcot he might refer to Bradshaw and explain Browns role in Afghanistan/Iraq, and the allocation of resources.
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#106
I have received through my letter box a small free newspaper called Exeter News and it is distributed free to maore than 70,000 Exeter residents, and is paid for by donations - no public money involved.
In this wonderful publication the headline is 'Investment has transformed Exeter - Exeter has been transformed since Ben Bradshaw became MP in 1997'.
If I may can I give a flavour of the contents, because no doubt there are people all over the country who receive similar 'newspapers' and it would be interesting to get some quotes which might be useful for the purposes of comparison. So:
'Exeter's economy has flourished and weathered the global downturn well. Our University is now in the top ten in Britain, our city centre has been redeveloped, important firms like the Met Office and Flybe have moved or expanded here, securing high skilled jobs for the future'.
Now I thought that the Met Office warned us of global warming, climate change, pollution, and is part of the Ministry of Defence. So to Ben it is a firm, just like Cadbury is a firm. Now firms are bought and sold, so can we expect the government to sell the Met Office, just like any other firm. As for Flybe, well how wonderful, now the Met Office can fly people in and out for conferences to discuss the problems which flying has on the climate, or weather. Weird conflation that one, really ironic. Well done Bradshaw, we might even have the same Afghan model for our voting system, let's learn lessons from the Afghan model! At this rate Karzai will be our next Prime Minister!
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Andrew,
I have just read a copy of my local paper on-line and it has a piece on Mandelson and my local top ten University, Exeter if you must know, and this is just an extract:
Lord Mandelson also warned that Exeter University was not an “ivory tower” and had to change to meet future business needs. And in comments to the Express & Echo likely to spark controversy, the Business Secretary said if that meant job losses then “so be it”.
So there you have it, maybe Bradshaw might like to have a cosey chat with Mandelson, I would love to be a fly on the wall for that one. Also confirmation, if it was ever needed, that Universities are not seats of learning, they must meet 'future business needs' wot like Cadbury, and so many other businesses, or firms like the Met Office.
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Andrew,
it's absolutely amazing that Johnson should be on our screens today of all days with regard to the increase level of terror we all have to accepot. The anti-terror police and other organisations are doing a fantastic job, we should all bow down before them in honour of their achievements in keeping us very safe since 7/7, apart from one or two gliches!
No I think any criticism of these wonderful people is totally unaccpetable. oh just a thought though, I wonder if others have seen the reports in national daily newspaer about charges being brought against the following police officers after 9/11:
'The accused officers - who have been suspended on full pay since their arrests - are Detective Constable Daren Pooley, 40, Detective Sergeant Nevill Caldecourt, 50, and Det Sgt Peter Allbut, 45. All were serving in the counter-terrorism unit when the alleged offences happened'.
Yes we have a wonderful police force, and as for the Home Secretary, he is the best one we have had since, well the last one. I just think that life is very weird.
Why has there not been an open independent inquiry into 7/7, which happened whilst London was deserted by many police and security officers because of some meeting attended by Blair in Scotland, and just after we got the Olympic Games. Do you know what sometimes I could be accused of being one of those conspiracy theorists. Just remember how much money was made by police officers transferred to the North at the time of the national coal strike, there is much anecdotal evidence that many earned enough to pay off their mortgages. There's lots of money to be made out of national security.
For example, let us accept what the government tells us about Afghanistan and Pakistan being the crucible of terror. Ok so we need to monitor these groups, not Moslems. So we pay through the security services for insiders to infiltrate these groups and keep us informed as to what is going on. In the meantime do these people actually declare their earnings to HMRC, or the Benefits Agency. I mean surely nobody could ever obtain money under false pretences. Who on earth could possibly say that there is a threat, but I need to find out a bit more, and that means more dosh! Its like trying to prove a negative, there's a lot of gold in them thar hills Mr Dillon!
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Good morning each & Andrew.
Thank you all for the clarification(s).
#107 DrBrianS
Thank you too, although the advance you speak of with regard to the 'get' must be fairly new and certainly welcome. [Radio4's moving of Woman's Hour to the am has given me a whole new perspective on all issues 'female']
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# 114 what I'm saying sagamix, is that Shariah Law has been legitimised by our government, something that only the more repressive Arabic countries themselves have done.
Having been told what my British characteristics are by Islamic scholars I should add something they omit - we don't do religious fervour. Religious courts don't have a good reputation and are, by definition, promoting religion rather than justice.
Let me give you some comments, and at the end I'll tell you who made them
"It is the responsibility of Islam to embrace the liberties required for citizens of a modern state, and not the other way around"
It seems to work for Sikhs, Hindus, Jains and others, so why not ?
"Making concessions to Shariah law is a potentially endless process that could ultimately result in the passage of unconstitutional and barbaric laws within the U.S. If every religious group in the U.S. is allowed to practice its own tribal or religious law instead of constitutional law, then the whole notion of a unified country will no longer exist."
... and he quotes one example from many
"For example, if the decision-makers in U.S. were to accept that Muslim taxi drivers should be allowed to refuse to transport passengers carrying dogs or alcohol with them on the grounds that doing so is "un-Islamic" (as Muslim taxi drivers demanded in Minneapolis in 2007), then these decision-makers should also be ready to exempt other Muslims from paying taxes in the U.S., assuming that the Muslims considered paying such taxes "un-Islamic"! Are the decision-makers here ready to allow this to happen under the banner of religious freedom ?"
and
"In 2008, to accommodate Muslim students, Harvard tried having women-only gym hours. This could be seen as a form of discrimination against male students, who had to change their workout schedules as a result of the new policy.
This is a clear form of sex discrimination. Furthermore, what if the Muslim students ask that gays not be permitted in the gym at any time, as homosexuality is a grave sin in Islam? Will the university bow to this as well to respect the religious demands of such Muslims ?"
It is one thing to concede legal decision making to a body separate from UK law, but to do so to a religion which has as a base a deliberate policy of putting women of their faith at a situation that existed in this country prior to female emancipation, doesn't make our government tolerant. It makes it quite the reverse.
"Similarly, making concessions to Islamic Shariah law can serve as a provocation to radical Islam, as it gives the radicals the impression that the West should bow to their Islamic laws."
The article also claims that the uproar about the cartoons appearing in the notorious Danish paper didn't occur after it was published, but only after the apolgy was made, some months later.
These comments did not come from Nick Griffin but
"Dr. Tawfik Hamid is an Islamic thinker and reformer. He was formerly a member of an Egyptian terrorist Islamic organization, JI, with Dr. Ayman Al-Zawahiri, who later became second-in-command to Osama bin Laden of al Qaeda."
The fact that these comments are made by a Muslim is unusual, and that in itself gives pause for thought. It sounds like something a less demented version of Nick Griffin might say.
The silence from UK politicians about Obama's proposed banking reforms is deafening and makes me suspicious that the influence banks have in financing government debt makes them far too powerful. It's one topic politicians are desperate to remove from the election agenda.
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Andrew
When will the Govt stop hiding from publishing the review into the events in Edlington.
Are the public really supposed to accept that after 4/5 reviews that have not been published and assurances matters would be put right that on this occasion not publishing will ensure they are by not publishing again.
This Govt must think the public came up on the down train.
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Andrew
One wonders whether we live in a free country or a military style dictatorship.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1245446/Military-style-spy-planes-used-target-civilians-UK.html
Are police forces become more authoritarian by the day.
It is about time they were reigned in.
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The idea of having unmanned drones circling the skies on the look out for litter louts and illegally parked cars gives me visions of Judge Dredd. I have to admit that my fears are overtaken by the hilarious consequences of these objects hurtling from the heavens and creating mayhem in the towns and cities below.
I think that this claims is somewhat overstated unless these drones can defy the elements in a way that their larger versions can't
".....and can take off and land at the click of a mouse"
Using pilotless drones in the wastelands of Afghanistan may represent little risk, but in our crowded skies and murky weather, they'll have little worth other than to represent a menace to other aircraft, and property and people on the ground.
It's the sort of idea that would appeal to a fourteen year old, so I guess it'll happen.
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Gomer
Overstated or not Gomer this is a disgrace. Parliament is so feeble that the police in this country think they can get away with anything they like.
Its high time Parliament if it has any authority left took a stand against the abuse of the people of this country by the police.
Enough of their naval gazing. From kettling onwards the police now pose a threat to freedom in this country.
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#120 Catch22 wrote:
'#106
I have received through my letter box a small free newspaper called Exeter News and it is distributed free to maore than 70,000 Exeter residents, and is paid for by donations - no public money involved.'
Scan in the 'Exeter News' and upload it to the excellent The Straight Choice website.
You can also upload any election leaflets that come through your door so that the producers can be held to account later.
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Tom Austin 123
Woman's Hour's female perspectives can be very damaging to testosterone levels. I suggest a few editions of "Top Gear" as a cure.
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# 128 - SuperAngry, I understand your concerns and feel the same way, and also believe that there should be a greater time lag between science fiction representations of law administered by automated drones in films and deploying them in reality.
There is a vast difference between what is technically feasible, and what can be practically deployed with any useful benefit. Just look at the alleged useless mine detectors that have reportedly been sold by a UK firm to Iraq and Afghanistan in their thousands, and that's hardly ground breaking technology.
Doing a google search for 'UK US drone crashes' does reveal that they don't have a reassuring track record, and could cause mayhem in our crowded country, apart from this
"Iraqi militants are intercepting sensitive video feeds from US predator drones using $26 off-the-shelf software, and the same technique leaves feeds from most military aircraft vulnerable to snooping, according to published reports."
and this technical site adopts a rather amused scepticism to the proposal
"Right now, civilian drones can't share airspace with those containing fleshy bits....."
The US airforce concedes this alarming statistic
".....we’ve lost a third of the Predators we’ve ever bought". They don't quantify what casualties were involved, although there is a story of one hitting the Mosul offices of a major Iraqi Islamist political party.
... and this about a UK drone from last August
"A SECOND £50million RAF 'spy in the sky' drone has crashed in Afghanistan, dealing a devastating blow to the fight against hidden Taliban bombs." - and we only had two.
Our government will probably do it, because it sounds like affirmative action, but the dangers to the public and massive expenditure, along with restrictions on deployment will make it largely a waste of time.
I want one, because boys love toys. That's the one argument for.
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It occurs to me that the two main parties don't have any intention of holding the election on the basis of 'policies' as such, not any that really have any resonance with the public. Talk of family cohesion and that being an issue (laughably a central issue) is ridiculous. Are the Tories suggesting massive funding of social services ? of course not.
Anything dangerous such as policies will be kept out of the way, and as there is a general agreement between both parties on central issues, it appears that they will settle on having a fake disagreement on piffling issues of merely totemic significance. The election will be like some grotesque Japanese 'kibbuki' performance of ritualised combat of interest only to those who treat it as an interesting art form.
Labour and the Tories don't offer a choice, merely a choice of flavour, and there is a danger that they are making other parties appear much more appealing, simply by not beng as pallid and uniform as the two insipid and redundant old warhorses that engage in rather tiresome combat.
The election campaign has begun with a yawn, and I don't foresee it becoming more exciting, not unless our frail economy finally gives up the ghost with a bang. The long run up doesn't favour either party.
How amazing - I've just heard the same view expressed on the Newsnight programme. Of course poliicians are trying to justify it, but the truth is that they withdraw policy choice as if such a thing is dangerous if the electorate is allowed to dictate or exert a choice.
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gomer @ 124
"These comments did not come from Nick Griffin"
No, far too intelligent sounding!
I believe BOTH of the following:
1. No place for Sharia Law in the UK.
2. No place for Islamophobia in the UK.
And for me, (2) is the bigger issue - the thing which really needs watching. But, yes, I'm with you on (1). SL should not be legally binding for anything important.
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Hi Andrew,
many people do not realise why the authorities now use Drones. They are privately operated out of the deserts of America, where guys can just sit at a terminal, just like Harry 'we do bad things to bad people' without those troublesome people like Griffin and Kendall-Smith. You know men with honour who do not just accept orders! Men who are not like those wonderful ministers who wanted to just preserve their jobs, and position. You bet I'm angry.
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WHO IN HELLS NAME DESIGN TERMINAL 5 AT HEATHROW
I am back,batteries charged and the first people I wish to broadside is the idiots who designed terminal 5 having used it recently. What a bloody shambles and to make matters if you arrive at the Central Bus Station at terminal 2 you start or finish your holiday with a 1/12 walk.
After arrival, you need to take an express train to collect your baggage, then another express train to connections, its a nightmare and I bet we are a laughing stock with foriegn travellers using it.
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BATS IN THE SOUTH WEST
You will recal a couple of months I raised the issue of using public funds to build two bat bridges in cornwall. Upon my arrival from a months holiday I am greeted by a letter from Ben Bradshaw with attachedletter from Cornwall County Council denying any knowledge of these bat brdges saying they had been built by the local highways authority.
Oh, that makesit OK then, silly me and there I wasthinkg what a complete waste of public funds.
I think you wil like this one Taggy ,especially as you have been singing Bradshaw's praises.
If you ask me,they are all BATS.
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MOTORWAY CENTRAL RESERVATION CRASH BARRIERS
You will recall sometimeago I raised this matter . Well just an update from my recent observations traving up the M5 and M4.
Work is being done on the M4 just East of the M32 Junct and there is a large section ofongong works,maybe 7 miles or so where ongoing works leave the M4 WITHOUT any temporary central crash barrier. However only a few miles further on between the M4 Junct and the bridge on the M5 there is similar works being carrid out where TEMPORARY cash barries.
Is it me just being stupid but is there any difference between theM4 & M5.
I would love to know how many billions ofpounds are being spent on the STUPID programme in demoloshing perfectly acceptable steel crash barries for conrete barriers.
They have ALL gone BATS ifyou ask me
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# 133
The Government appears to be the party responsible for stirring things up at present.
In the same way that Lord Myners was saying that the UK was leading the way on banking reform one day, and then the opposite a day later, Gordon's policy in dealing with the Jihadist threat is equally confused. It seems he is more intent on covering all options than caring if he makes sense.
Labour have manged to contrive an economic disaster, a banking festival of gluttony and a major terrorist threat, all to coincide at once. I forgot to mention the worst winter for years, and maybe I shouldn't blame them for that, though having tried to delude us into believing that the planet was hurtling towards the frying pan, I will.
I'm worrying that someone believes that Gordon looks good in a disaster. Personally I think he'd look much better if he didn't have so many. We've had Global Warming hysteria and now he's jumped on the Islamophobia hysteria.
Cool it Gordon.
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Andrew
Interesting read in The Gaurdian from Michael Wood. Two passages that caught my eye were
Blair will take his place amid intense security, with mass protests expected in Westminster. Sources close to Scotland Yard said Blair's appearance had been a major factor behind the government's decision to raise the terror threat level from "substantial" to "severe".
Intelligence operatives had picked up "domestic chatter" that had given them reason to believe his appearance before the inquiry required a higher state of alert. "We are gearing up for Blair," said the source."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jan/24/iraq-chilcot-inquiry-michael-wood
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Good morning each & Andrew.
The route to war?
The first step was for us to donate our hopes and dreams to a smarmy-g**.
To grant a giftless man all his Christmases at once.
And gift too the power over life and death to a group incapable of engaging with matters outwith their own narrow self-interest and the continuation in power of that amorphous and insubstantial thing...Party.
Our folly would be to do the same thing yet again.
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Loose change?
Always quaint to hear, as I did just now via the Andrew Marr comfy chat show, notions on the politics of privilege from one of two brothers in the Labour cabinet, who one is sure rose to the top only through talent and hard work.
However the vapid rehashing of Obama's now discredited mantra: 'After 13 years of learning lessons, our change is more changey than the others' change... honest', would suggest not.
And, speaking of trotting out trite sound bites, the first Labour pol who susses that people are possibly not always reassured that they are 'getting on with job' might at least be accorded some credit for grasping reality.
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-139 Super Angry
I have been wondering why the media have been leading on this 'terror' theme recently. It had crossed my mind, we might get 'Don't get rid of the President or PM, when there is a war going on' theme up to the election. But surely, we can't be that cynical?
Also intrigued that it is being reported that Dr Kelly's post mortem has been made secret for 70 years by Lord Hutton. I always thought it was suspicious when the news first broke and still not been convinced it was suicide. I have not heard any mention of Kelly at Chilcott.
Andrew - I thought Dianne got it right that we are in W shaped recession and there is going to be a lot of problems after the election and not only if we get a hung parliament.
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There is no Islamophobia other than that ratified by Chairman Gordon.
Is there really a need to crank up the publlished threat from Jihadists at the moment ? What is such alarmism meant to achieve ?
The latest proposed threat from some sort of undercover female Jihadists, sounds like the script of an Austin Power's movie. Maybe it's true, but I don't see what the purpose is of detailing it in such a way. Perhaps it's intent is to insinuate that profiling is inneffective, but the Government's own senior adviser, Mr Wahhab, has said that it must be introduced. The only impression I get is that the government is in panic and unable to control the two opposing points of view it espouses.
A member of the Taliban in Afghanistan is liekly to have several million pounds worth of ordinance expended on his destruction, but if the same person came to our borders and claimed asylum, it would be granted on the basis of the harm he would suffer (from us) if he were returned home.
Undoubtedly the BNP are racist but Labour practice a bizarre form of geographic racism that confounds common sense. Their attacks on the BNP appear only to be some form of justification for their own strange position. 'Look at us - we hate the BNP so we can't be racist' seems to be their argument, but in actual fact their position is worse, and also makes the country more vulnerable to the threat of terror.
They are in such a convoluted position, their alarmism is only likely to favour the extremists on both sides. Anjem Choudhary and the BNP are lovin' it. Meanwhile, I'm not alarmed at all.
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Good Morning Andrew,
I think that whilst the BBC is giving great news from Haiti, and Gordon Brown with his sadness over the situation there are other issues about Haiti. As children tell thier parents that something must be done, that we need to raise money for these sad people maybe we ought to think of the aid workers who are now recovering in the luxurious resorts in haiti, and the cruise ships which are still visiting the fabulous resorts in the areas unaffected by the earthquake, here is just one report. Maybe the BBC would like to visit some of the areas where the aid workjers are now staying, probably being bused in every day from their 'resorts'. There is another side to the corruption and inhumanity in Haiti, maybe we in the west love to have these countries so that we can have our own purpose in life. What's your job, oh raising money to help the poor, and to go and save them. Oh, and as fundraiser for this 'charity' how much do you earn about £250,000 a year. I did used to reconcile the accounts of some of the charities which we used to manage, at the investment bank where I used to work!
Royal Caribbean International's cruise ship, the "Independence of the Seas," arrived in Haiti to carry out a humanitarian mission, reportedly delivering supplies to help the survivors of the massive earthquake that has killed tens of thousands of people and left aid organizations scrambling. But the mission wasn't purely to help the people whose lives were devastated; the ship kept up it's we're-on-a-cruise-to-have-fun mentality, dropping passengers at sun-filled beaches on Haiti's Labadee resort, just 60 miles from the earthquake zone, triggering guilty dismay from a few passengers.
As the ship arrived at the resort, protected by fences and armed guards, some passengers were divided over the decision.
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A quick diversion back to the Cult of Warmism.
Not even the most devout followers of Warmism cite UEA CRU as a reliable source of accurate data or opinion on climate any longer. Now it seems that the IPCC, the militant wing of Warmism, have been practicing even more dubious science, and bucketloads of our cash have been paid out on the bsis of claims they have made that have been proven to be nothing more than wishful thinking.
They now reject their own claims about Himalayan glacier retreat and the Indian government is incensed, and unlikly to conform to any future demands based on anything produced by the IPCC.
The answer to Global Warming is to shut down the IPCC and UEA CRU and to set up some scientific groups to properly study the issue, not rely on political pressure groups.
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gomer @ 143
"There is no Islamophobia other than that ratified by Chairman Gordon"
Yes I understand your point. Or I think I do, anyway.
Let me run a test.
If we adjusted foreign policy - distanced ourselves somewhat from America - ceased military occupation of Muslim countries overseas - adopted a more pro Palestinian stance on the Arab Israeli conflict - then at the government (Gordon) level, we would be sending a clear message that big WE (the country) are not Islamophobic, and thus little we (individual people) should not be either.
Fear & distrust of Muslims would then no longer be "ratified", it would be discouraged. Discouraged validly and properly, I mean, without the sniff of hypocricy which you rightly point out.
Is that what you mean?
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#146 saga
It seems somewhat excessive to attempt to manipulate foreign policy simply to appease perceptions - largely false or exaggerated - that this country is Islamophobic.
The invasion of Afghanistan was a UN or NATO (I'm not sure which) agreed decision, following 9/11, and involves many countries, not just the UK and US. Are they all considered to be Islamophobic? And listening to debates in the HoC and reading newspapers, I get the impression that there is as much support in Britain for the Palestinians as there is for the Israelis. Many of our leading politicians, of all parties, have consistently expressed concerns about achieving a workable solution to the problems in that region.
There is no significant 'fear and distrust' of Muslims in this country - only of those seeking to commit terrorist acts or raise the flag of Islam above No 10 Downing Street, as Mr Choudary put it.
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Re :147
I agree with what you say mike-jay.
saga what do you mean by distancing ourselves from America. The fact is simple a NATO ally was attacked and we are committed to defend each other. If you mean backing out of this responsibility then you are simply wrong.
If however you mean being seen to control our own foreign policy then I might agree.
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Andrew
With David Milliband saying that the decision to go to war was a "corporate decision"
It is time to examine this Government and its actions in light of this quote
"The first stage of fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of State and corporate power"
Mussolini
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# 146
In basic terms I agree with you sagamix. Bizarrely, even the BNP don't want our troops there, and I haven't any clear idea of what we're trying to achieve. From an Islamic perspective it's easy to view it as an attempt to turn the country into a Westernised colony, but that's the risk when you go beyond the initial objective of removing what you consider to be a hostile government from power.
I read an article about the US major who went on a shooting spree at an army base in America, and Obama's anger that no one had reported his increasingly extremist behaviour. The simple reason was that polictical correctness had made it so that anyone reporting it would have had their career in the army curtailed.
It would be far simpler to place an embargo on those countries that act as hosts for terrorism, and refuse to accept their citizens or flights, and to place restrictions on our citizens going there. It may not be a solution, but it doesn't cost lives or bucketloads of money, and the UK does have the legal right to tell its citizens what they can and can't do.
I simply can't comprehend how sanctions may be considered reprehensible when compared with military action. It appears to be the conclusion of applying pc behaviour beyond the bounds of sanity. Enforcing human rights and our values on people abroad at the point of a gun simply won't work.
Government policy on this, and many other things, is just a mess. The Muslim adviser to the government who conceded that profiling was necessary (as if it hasn't always been practised anyway) also stated that unemployment and poverty within the Muslim community is a vector for increasing radicalisation, but Labour have seen the greater impoverishment of all the working class, as they have protected the 'bonused' classes.
I know from personal experience the mess the NHS is in, so I'm not sure what Labour have achieved. The farce of 'Global Warming' just seems to sum them up - hype, taxation and happy bankers.
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According to the Sunday Times, the climate change scientists/publicists have slipped up again by linking floods, hurricanes and similar natural disasters to global warming. The claim has now been withdrawn as the original report was misleading. This correction could have been made before the Copenhagen conference, but was delayed. Deliberately?
At this rate, Ed Miliband will soon have to refuse to give interviews.
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mike @ 147
"It seems somewhat excessive to attempt to manipulate foreign policy simply to appease perceptions that this country is Islamophobic"
Yes that would be. But what I'm saying is change foreign policy because the current one is not working - and we get a side benefit of not appearing (as a Nation) to be anti Muslim. This (as Gomer points out) would also mean that when the government send out messages that people should not fall prey to Islamophobia, this message will no longer run counter to certain other "messages" ... occupation of Muslim countries, alarmist terror warnings etc.
"There is no significant 'fear and distrust' of Muslims in this country"
Strongly disagree. It's present and growing. A big factor in the bouyancy of the BNP. See it in quite a few posts on here - not support for the BNP, don't mean that, not on here, but irrational fear & distrust of Muslins and things Islamic.
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Re :151
mike-jay it seems the climate change people who have gone well beyond the science are being hoisted by their own petard.
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sa @ 148
"The fact is simple, a NATO ally was attacked and we are committed to defend each other"
A terrorist outrage, not an Act of War, and the right thing was to hit back at the people who planned & executed it. It's gone way beyond that.
Regarding Afghanistan, we're still there nearly a decade later - in a faraway (and very foreign) sovereign country - as a occupying force. But yes, not just us. As you say, plenty of other nations too.
Regarding Iraq, there we DID get joined at the hip to America, and there was no "self defence" argument whatsoever - nobody thinks Saddan had anything to do with 9/11.
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gomer @ 150
Yes, I'd sooner see us employ sanctions against regimes we don't like - e.g. terrorist states - rather than military force. Military force should be a "later than last" resort. Should be restricted to ...
1. genuine self defence - so NOT first strike.
2. compelling humanitarian reasons - e.g. genocide.
Neither Afghanistan nor Iraq pass this test.
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#152 saga
It would be foolish, and possibly dangerous, to start confusing hard-headed foreign policy decisions, taken at the time in what was seen as the country's best interests, with 'messages' to give true or false impressions of what the bulk of the population thinks. Whether foreign policy decisions were good or bad should simply be decided in the light of events, not wishy-washy headline psychology.
Also, it is questionable how much the BNP success relates to Islamophobia. I think you'll find that it relates more to general immigration resentments based on perceptions of discrimination in housing,jobs, benefits, etc in poor areas.
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Re :154
Saga what defines an Act of War. To put in context what happened at the World Trede Centre
2403 people died in the attack on Pearl Harbour in 1941
In and around the World Trade Centre there were 2973 killed.
How many have to die before it is an Act of War.
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Andrew,
if any country 'deserved' to be attacked post 9/11 then surely it must have been Saudi Arabia.
As for Miliband and the new corporate rather than cabinet, then you can't make it up, confirmation, if any was needed that people at the time were just bought off. A knighthood for you, a promotion for you, keep your job, this is just so sad, how can some people sleep at night!
As for Dr David Kelly, how interesting that certain information will not be available for 70 years. I mean after the start of WWI many of the states involved rushed to publish their memoes and communication to avoid the problem of who started all this. I mean surely America did not previously support the Afghans in their war against the USSR.
As for Afghanistan and the visit from Quizling Karzai, then interesting that the voting should be cancelled. Surely it could not happen in good old blighty, a national emergency, general election cancelled, surely it coul dnever happen here! In the meantime has anybody actually voted for Mandelson, or Brown, in this shamed parliament. I can see a government of national unity coming our way!
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151. At 3:34pm on 24 Jan 2010, mike-jay wrote:
At this rate, Ed Miliband will soon have to refuse to give interviews.
Well, at the very least restrict himself to such as the kitchen cabinets of ever-compliant Newsnight 'reporters' who may have a vested interest in not pursuing the whole 'science is settled' thing for reasons of their own.
Much less maybe getting in Gordon to go over again how folk having the odd cranked eyebrow was enough to scream 'saboteur' and rush to see how Senator McCarthy may just have had his good points, at least as regards the whole 'if you are not with 'us''... thing...
Ahhhh, Milibands. So much to do, so little to get it right with.
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mike @156
"It would be foolish, and possibly dangerous, to start confusing hard-headed foreign policy decisions, taken at the time in what was seen as the country's best interests, with 'messages' to give true or false impressions of what the bulk of the population thinks"
Yes, it would be. But thankfully we won't be doing that. We'll be taking a hard headed decision to replace a soft headed foreign policy which a) isn't working, and b) was taken in the American NeoCons' and Tony Blair's best interests, rather than those of the UK Nation, and replacing it with a better one. The elimination of Gomer's "mixed messages" is a consequence - and a good one - of doing that, but is not the reason for doing it.
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sa @ 157
"How many have to die before it is an Act of War"
Not defined by numbers. Key point is that the aggressor is a country, or group of countries acting together. Pearl Harbour, as you say. Hitler invading Poland. Saddam rolling into Kuwait. 9/11 was terrorism, albeit on quite a scale. There's a grey area with "state sponsored" terrorism, but there's no case for saying 9/11 was sponsored by Iraq.
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# 155
Don't underestimate my intention sagamix. When I say embargo, that would include their citizens, and our citizens from visiting the embargoed country. If other countries are used to defeat the embargo then those countries should be embargoed too. I'm specifically thinking of travel by plane. If we really consider that we face attack by undercover decoy females from the Yemen flying planes into our cities (as suggested), it seems rather absurd to accept flights from that country. The increasingly hysterical and bizarre threats we are told about are not matched by our response to them.
It's a little daft for people to suggest that the UK is obligated in some way to allow 'freedom for all'. Clearly their knowledge of UK history is a little hazy, and perhaps they should look up The Riot Act, which was only repealed in 1973. The Peterloo Massacre is a good example. We're a democracy, not a hippy commune, and democracies can, and do, introduce restrictive legislation in what may be deemed their own defence when threatened. We don't have a Bill of Rights. Take internment as an example.
I'm not sure that the government have a strategy, let alone a policy and our soldiers appear to be at a different location to the place where they tell us we now face a threat, not that I'm suggesting we send troops there too.
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Re:161
I agree its not defined specifically by number saga. However I think if you looked at it from the other side of the coin "terrorists" whoever they are and wherever they come from would describe themselves as "at war" for whatever reasoning they come up with.
Defining an Act of War as only something states can do therefore in that context is probably inaccurate at best.
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gomer @ 162
"If we really consider that we face attack by undercover decoy females from the Yemen flying planes into our cities (as suggested), it seems rather absurd to accept flights from that country. The increasingly hysterical and bizarre threats we are told about are not matched by our response to them"
Yes, if the Islamic threat to the UK is being exaggerated - as you and I know it is - we certainly don't want stuff like blanket travel embargos! Mustn't feed the fire. We need to go the other way, if anything, tone it all down.
And, above all, deal with the real problem - our foreign policy.
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sa @ 163
"Defining an Act of War as only something states can do therefore in that context is probably inaccurate at best"
Really? What is it "at worst" then?
As I say, there's a grey area with "state sponsored" terrorism.
And - key point - regardless of the precise definition, Iraq had zip to do with 9/11 ... did they?
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161 Saga
Or Afghanistan my friend.
As I tried and failed to persuade our quaint English American poster PursuitofLove a little while ago, it would have made just as much sense to invade the states of America where the 9/11 terrorists learned to fly.
And much more sense to invade Saudi but that will never happen.
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Re:165
"Really? What is it "at worst" then?"
Wrong
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#160 saga
#160 saga
You may note that I made no reference to Iraq - only to Afghanistan and the follow-on from 9/11. The truth about Bush, Blair, and Iraq may be gradually emerging and will probably show that opposition parties were duped into supporting a dubious policy driven by the US, as Christopher Meyer explained long ago in his biography of his stint in Washington. Apart from other factors, a major fault with this policy was its diversion of attention from the Afghanistan objectives.
Afghanistan was a different matter, and the action taken against it was supported almost worldwide. Long term consequences might prove it to have been a mistake. Or they might not. Time will tell.
Al Quaeda, responsible for 9/11, was based in Afghanistan, hiding behind the skirts of the ruling Taleban, and training more terrorists to carry out further atrocities against the west. The Taleban themselves had no love for western democracy and liberal values. So how were the 9/11 perpetrators to be brought to justice, other than by going in and trying to get them?
It might have set a precedent in the terms that you and sa have been discussing, but the explosion of global terrorism is itself setting a precedent that demands new responses. Previous 'rules of engagement' have, I suspect, gone by the board.
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Anyone know if the Kelly post mortem ban is being reported in any other outlets other than the DM?
And what were the reasons given? Thx.
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It's hideously embarrassing that we employ diplomats who appear to have an IQ that wouldn't impress a squirrel, let alone an Afghan
"A Western diplomat said: "Following the decision to delay the parliamentary elections the Afghan government needs to take the opportunity to strengthen the Afghan electoral system."
It's a little late after we've run a crooked election and put a corrupt leader in charge. What does he suggest, a media campaign ?
Of course we do employ our own mastermind
"Meanwhile, Foreign Secretary David Miliband said the Afghan government needed to bring the Taliban into the political system.
He told BBC One's Andrew Marr Show the "vast bulk" of those labelled as members of the Taliban were not linked to al Qaida."
What he says does have a smattering of truth, which is a start. I'm not sure that anyone has ever produced any credible evidence of Al Qaida existence in the area, other than vague arm sweeps and unsubstantiated claims. They are the Global Warming of terrorism. The average Afghan citizen has cultural, tribal, linguistic and religious affiliations to the Taliban that will always take precedence over any influence we may wish to exert over them.
The greater mistake is to believe that we are changing anything. Our politicians must be particularly stupid, as they frequently tell us that the average Afghan can't tolerate the Taliban, so there must be some greater impediment to progress - it's us.
I see no sign of this truth dawning on anyone soon, but when we do leave, everything will reform as it was before, not that there is much sign that anything is changing very much at present.
Milliband can't suggest a solution because he still doesn't understand the problem.
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sa @ 167
1. So what's the difference (!) between a definition being inaccurate and being wrong?
2. And in any event, how could attacking Iraq be a response to the 9/11 attack?
(1) is larking about, so don't answer if you don't want to - but (2) you should definitely have a stab at ... if you want to justify what you said at 148.
Which was:
"The fact is simple, a NATO ally was attacked and we are committed to defend each other"
??
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mike @ 168
"You may note that I made no reference to Iraq - only to Afghanistan and the follow-on from 9/11"
Yes, a valid distinction.
"The truth about Bush, Blair, and Iraq may be gradually emerging and will probably show that opposition parties were duped into supporting a dubious policy driven by the US"
It's not true to say the "opposition parties" were duped. The Tory party and the Labour party were duped. The LibDems weren't.
"Apart from other factors, a major fault with this policy was its diversion of attention from the Afghanistan objectives"
Yes, I agree.
"Afghanistan was a different matter, and the action taken against it was supported almost worldwide. Long term consequences might prove it to have been a mistake. Or they might not. Time will tell."
I can see the justification - a good one - for the initial strikes against terrorist sites in Afghanistan. Can't see the justification for being there a decade later, occupying the country. Time has told.
Al Quaeda, responsible for 9/11, was based in Afghanistan, hiding behind the skirts of the ruling Taleban, and training more terrorists to carry out further atrocities against the west. The Taleban themselves had no love for western democracy and liberal values. So how were the 9/11 perpetrators to be brought to justice, other than by going in and trying to get them?"
Agreed. Can see the rationale for swift and targeted strikes in the aftermath of 9/11 or soon after - but not for what DID happen, and certainly not for the current situation.
"It might have set a precedent in the terms that you and sa have been discussing, but the explosion of global terrorism is itself setting a precedent that demands new responses. Previous 'rules of engagement' have, I suspect, gone by the board"
Fair enough. But consider this, Mike ... if we only invade countries who we know don't have serious WMD - like Iraq and Afghanistan - we send the message that if you want to protect yourself from western aggression, you'd better go nuclear. Like Iran want to do. Understandably enough. Good message to send?
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xtun @ 166
"and much more sense to invade Saudi but that will never happen"
Sounding a bit wistful there, Tun ... like you want to invade Saudi Arabia.
Reading you wrong?
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#172
Here is an extract from Hansard which many may have missed from one of my earlier comments from Ben Bradshaw, my local MP:
Mr. Bradshaw With respect to my hon. Friend, I do not accept his use of the terminology "a conquering force". We will be a liberating force, and we already are in the parts of Iraq in which the Iraqi people are sufficiently confident to speak freely and where they feel safe from retribution from Saddam's henchmen. My hon. Friend should look at the model of Afghanistan. Of course, our input and that of the international community was important to help the Afghan people to set up their conference and institutions such as the Loya Jirga, but such things were based firmly on Afghan traditions and practices. I can assure him that the same applies in Iraq. It is not in our interests to be perceived as trying to tell the Iraqi people how they should run their country once they have been liberated. In comparison with Afghanistan, Iraq has not only good natural resources but a highly educated work force and 4 million highly educated people in exile. Many may want to return to help with the redevelopment of their country.
Now the problem is that we started to ignore Afghanistan as soon as we started to prepare for the Iraq illegal war. This is where Chilcot should be going when he gets 'evidence' from Brown. Did you have to re-allocate resources from Afghanistan to Iraq.
People should look at the death rates for British soldiers in Afghanistan leading up to the Iraq invasion, apart from a murder and suicide I think you will find there were very few, if any. It really started to kick-off after Harry and his 'we do bad things to bad people' and the censoring of the British media not to report his 'visit'. We must remember Harrys bravery, especially when calling up an air strike from the safety of a tent and computer!
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173 Saga
Didn't put that very well did I ?
Dont want anywhere invaded. But on the skewed USA logic that you retaliate by attacking
alleged links, the obvious place to attack is Saudi as 15 of the 9/11 mob were Saudis, 1 Egyptian, 1 Lebanese and 2 UAE. No Iraqi, no Afghanistani.
If the USA's next excuse is training areas then the pilots trained in USA states.
There are so many unanswered questions on 9/11 itself. The one for me is why the FBI supervised the evacuation of 20 of the Bin Laden family in a private jet back to Saudi 3 days after 9/11 whilst anyone who looked or sounded "suspect" was held , almost 2,000 in total, some of whom were abused in detention and not one was ever charged with anything to do with 9/11.
I know hindsight is wonderful but if only someone had taken notice of the FBI operative's report that terrorist suspects were training to fly at USA flying schools, things might have all been different.
If you want a blow by blow account of the chaos and ineptitude that surrounded the hi-jacking of the 5 planes have a look at complete 911 timeline. Wont give the URL as I always get them disallowed. Disbelief of phone calls from the passengers and crew on the planes saying they had been hi-jacked was rife, even though the radio and transponder contact had been switched off on all the flights.
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Re:171
saga my friend Im not sure how you get from this
"The fact is simple, a NATO ally was attacked and we are committed to defend each other"
to justifying Iraq.
I was talking about the principle itself in relation to your comment about distancing ourselves from America.
At no point have I commented about who America was attacked by.
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FOI for Exeer PFI Schools
Just a wee update to let you know The FOI are STILL working on my FOI request for data on one of the PFI schools.
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I would appear that Special Branch Officers or former SB officers have been assisting some large construction companies in the UK in developing a file on UNDESIRABLE PERSONS .
This is illegal??!!
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Regular readers will recall my comments about anew housing association project in Exeter on the Quay. I notice it has now been completed and I am appaled at the general tardy state it has been left and question the local authority wisdom in accepting such tardy and danger sites.
I would under normal circumstance drop my local authority an email but I am banned from emailing them. In the mean time some dear eldrely erson will nodoubt trip and fall.
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Good Morning Andrew,
yet more deaths in Afghanistan this week for Brown to read out at PMQs on Wednesday. The trouble with Brown is that he just doesn't get it, neither do those in the bunker with him.
The Speaker of the House would appear to be making allowances for this sham of regret over the deaths. Brown could put a stop to it immediately, but it suits his purposes for there to be a couple of deaths a week, not too many, but just enough. Me cynical, yes I am.
There are now reports cominh out from America, and here, of the corruption of supplies to Iraq. Overcharging by a massive scale, supplying equipment to detaect explosives which are not fit for purpose.
Many will know that I have little time for Quizling Karzai, well he does he one good point and that if you really want to look at corruption then many people should just look in the mirror. I think that there should be more scrutiny of the media in all this, the imbedded journalists, who don't divulge what they know or speculate on so that they can write their book. Do the ends ever justify the means.
We should also be aware from the Chilcot Inquiry about so many individuals who were willing to take the money, and honours, to buy their silence. He who pays the piper calls the tune!
I am also angry about those who have left the army, either on retirement or buying themselves out, who are now in the business of supplying private contractors, or mercenaries, to 'protect' our politicians, or construction workers. For example what has happened to the generators delivered at great cost, in lives, and money, in Afghanistan?
Many people may not be aware as to how many Special Forces have left the army for more lucrative work. It would appear to me that we are seeing the privatization of the military, Drones for example are loaded by private contractors.
So, when Quizling Karzai visits this country for Browns conference just think that when he is harangued over his election, about corruption, then just remember, he has at least had the guts to have an election, even if the next one has been cancelled.
Finally, good old Ainsworth, I may regard him with something less than respect, but at least he has stopped me demanding an early election, May it is then! Now there's a surprise.
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Dear Mr Bradshaw
I write to record my concerns with the general tardy unsafe manner in which the Housing Association Project Site has been left and consider it unsafe to the general public and the end user.
I refer to the HA Waterside Project on Exeter Quay
I also believe the local authority have failed their duty of care in accepting the site. There are numerous trip hazards caused by tardy reinstatement of slabs, plus numerousconcrete and cement stains and I also question the fire proofing of the PVC downpipes between floors.
With thanks
Best regards
Exxonmobil2
A copy of my email to Ben radshaw ref Housing Association Works in Exeter
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Andrew,
I listened with great interest to the Today programme on Radio 4 this morning with regard to the reporting from Haiti. I never cease to be amazed that we show pictures of 'foreigners' during a disaster in distressing situations, yet when in Britain, oh no, these sorts of pictures are unacceptable. I am in no doubt that there is overt racism in the reporting from foreign lands.
What I find most distasteful is that these 'journalists' take their photos, sell them, make a profit, make money out of misery. Lessons need to be learnt. Just as there are imbedded journalists in war zones, then the same must apply yo disaster zones, ok give them a knighthood afterwards for their work, but this cannot be allowed to continue, either that or they don't make money out of other peoples misery.
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Andrew,
Its worth reading the whole of this but its the final sentence which is important these days:
Hansard 25th August 1914
The PRIME MINISTER We have heard this morning from Sir John French that the withdrawal already announced of his troops to their new position was successfully effected. It was not accomplished without considerable loss. He was pressed hard by the enemy, who were, however, shaken off. It is not desirable to say anything more for the moment, except that the Field-Marshal reports that, in spite of some hard marching and fighting, the British force is in the best of spirits. He provisionally estimates the casualties at something over 2,000, but we have as yet received no names.
Please note the final sentence. I wonder what on earth Brown would have done if he had been Prime Minister in 1914. Do you know what, some things never change. We will withdraw from Afghanistan, and all the deaths and injuries will have been for nothing. Its the P.B.I. who always pay.
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sa @ 176
Indeed so. One CAN'T get from 9/11 to justifying the attack on Iraq.
Exactly my point.
Think we agree on this, to be honest.
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Re:184
Agree on what? You still havent explained what you meant by "distancing oursevles from America"
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Good morning each & Andrew.
9/11 & Iraq
To paraphrase Austen J.
It is a universal truth that a standing army with ever something to prove is in need of...
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A message to the DUP:
Orange Marches cause instability, and give the community a lack of confidence.
Jobs cause stability and community confidence.
Grow up or move over it's the 21st century not the 17th.
A message to the UUP:
Orange Marches cause instability, and give the community a lack of confidence.
Jobs cause stability and community confidence.
Grow up or move over it's the 21st century not the 17th.
A message to the English Conservatives:
Orange Marches cause instability, and give the community a lack of confidence.
Jobs cause stability and community confidence.
Grow up or move over it's the 21st century not the 17th.
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sa @ 185
"Agree on what?"
We agree that 9/11 doesn't provide a valid "self defence to an act of war" reason for the invasion of Iraq. C'est tout.
"You still haven't explained what you meant by "distancing ourselves from America"
What I mean by that is to not follow America so slavishly. To take the Iraq example, I'd have preferred us to be aligned more with the France Germany approach. A little more detached (from America) shall we say. More independent.
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#172 saga
Just two comments.
You might not have noticed, but there are other opposition parties in Parliament, besides the Tories and Lib-Dems.
WMD were obviously not a factor in the Afghan invasion. Who knows what the policy would have been if Al Quaeda had been operating from Iran or N. Korea or Russia? Maybe the host countries wouldn't have been as opposed to weeding them out as the Taleban were.
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Re:188
The we dont agree. American power is the foundation of the NATO alliance that has consistenly ensured our freedom and the freedom of Europe.
The Franco German alliance has only one purpose to serve their national interest.
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Quite. Interesting the way that relationship has changed now with the cold war over and the European political landscape changing. Still a potential hegemony threat from Russia through their energy resources though but not the threat of old. The EU will redefine NATO's role...?
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Andrew,
I tune in regularly to Chilcot. What I want to know is how much is the bottled water costing? Every time there is the opening of bottles, the pouring of water, the usual opening remarks, it is like ground hog day.
Maybe it is all a ruse. Maybe Chilcot is not being held at all, it is like the film where there are allegations that the landings on the Moon were nothing but a film set. Maybe we even imagined the whole episode and that the illegal war never took place, that there has been no occupation, that hundreds of thousands have not been killed, and that really we have all been having a shower, and it was all just such a terrible day dream!
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Andrew,
you really can't make it up. I am listening to the reports from the front. We are going to attack, the forces are ready. If we are going to win the argument then we must attack. Central Helmand, that's where we are going. Yes, I heard it on the news today. Brown had better get his sincere voice ready for the next few weeks. Oh that's right there is an Afghan conference coming up. This is so shameful, should we really be telling the enemy that we are going to attack, I think that the Afghans will just go quiet. Another British retreat, sorry withdrawl, strategic withdrawal.
The Americans have come to our aid again, we are in full retreat, yes ok we will be training the Afghans, yeah, like we trained and armed the Iraqis who then shot us up. This is totally bizarre.
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Brown (and other Labour spokespersons) persist in claiming that they have provided detailed plans in the PBR for reducing the deficit. Yet these 'plans' appear to be broad outlines based on generalities and assumptions. The PM reiterated the claim in answer to a question this morning. Why do they keep attacking opposition parties for not spelling out how they would reduce the deficit, and precisely where any cuts would come? How long are they going to get away with this patently devious approach?
Or is it just an automatic continuation of the Blair/New Labour chicanery that has somehow succeeded in the past?
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Good Grief Andrew,
I know that we live in interesting timnes so I thought that I would look up on the wonderful internet what was available in respect of what used to known as D-Notices but are now DA-Notices. This after the Radio 4 News at 1. Can I interest your readers in a simple extract:-
It is requested that disclosure or publication of highly classified information within the categories listed below should not be made without first seeking advice:
(a) details of present or future operations, methods, tactics and contingency planning, to meet particular hostile situations and to counter threats of terrorist attacks;
(b) details of the state of readiness and operational capability of individual units or formations whose involvement in such operations is current or may be imminent;
(c) operational movements of such individual units or formations (as distinct from routine movements unconnected with operations);
(d) particulars of current or projected tactics, trials, techniques and training (including anti-interrogation training and operational techniques and tactics used to counter terrorism);
Now can we expect some sort of inquiry into what exactly is going on. It is fine for Brown to stand at the despatch box every Wednesday reading out the names of the dead, sorry fallen, but not the severely injured, whilst the senior officers are letting it be known what we are going to do. I say old boy, it's just not cricket, is it! We've got to give them the chance to up sticks and move away, jolly good chaps those Talibhan fellows. Very good fighters don't you know.
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#194
Also listen very carefully to Brown, in particular when he moves seamlssly from I to we, or this government. This government has only been in power since 2005, it was previous governments, not this government.
The government where Blair was going to serve a full term, and where Brown fluffed the election. As for all these things which they are going to do, if elected, exactly why haven't they done it by now. Next thing they will be talking about badger culls, foot and mouth, Swine flu, and as for bird flu. Oh, I am so terrified to go out of the door, what with the changes to the level of terrorism in this country. Oh, I'm just going back under my bed covers!
Oh we said we were going to do that but haven't had the time, it'll be in the manifesto. By the way lovely joke by Brown, I could have wept, I mean Ainsworth was of course talking about the council elections in May, not the general election. Poor old Bob, I think that he too will be ditched as soon as the election is held, bit like poor old Darling, as for people being sent to the House of Lords...
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187 DisgustedinDERRY
Is it because there are so many of them and because much of the housing is located on sectarian lines that they cause such offence ?
I ask because when I was a child my mother frowmed upon 5th November celebrations, Guy Fawkes night as it was then called as opposed to the inoccuous bonfire night it seems to be called now.
Her objection was Catholic based as Guido was Catholic and fighting a long overdue equality battle for the oppresssed Catholic minority. (Sound familiar ?). They would be terrorist these days of course.Freedom fighters are a dying breed.
Anyway I am not aware of any religious/community hang ups now over 5th November in England. Now I will perhaps be told that Manchester and Glasgow still have problems like they do with football teams. I hope I am wrong.
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sa @ 190
"Then we don't agree"
Let's do Iraq and 9/11 first.
So you DO feel that the invasion was justified as a response to 9/11, then?
Or is it that you think it was justified for other reasons?
Pls clarify - I'm not trying to trick you.
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What a jolly day it is today Andrew,
you see on the 4th October 2008 the New York Times carried reports of an Afghan 'Dictator' proposed in leaked cable.
'it's not for us to comment on something that is presented as extracts from a French diplomatic telegram, but the views it quotes are in any way an accurate representation of the government's approach' said a spokeswoman for the British Forewign Office, who, like other French and Britsih officials, spoke on the condition of anonymity under normal diplomatic rules.
In the cable it is quoted 'it is American presidential candidates who must be dissuaded from getting further bogged down in Afghanistan' well that one failed then didn't it Andrew.
Another quote is 'within ten years the only realistic way to unite Afghanistan would be for it to be governed by an acceptable dictator, we should be thinking of preparing our public opinion', well that is well on the way, what with the London Conference on Thursday.
I'll leave you with a final extract 'Foreign forces are the lifeline of a regime that would rapidly collapse without them. As such, they slow down and complicate a possible emergence from the crisis', I ask how many have been killed and injured in Afghanistan since October 4, 2008, how many names have been read out at the despatch box since that date, every wednesday, except of course when MPs are on holiday. Angry, you bet I am angry!
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mike @ 189
"You might not have noticed, but there are other opposition parties in Parliament, besides the Tories and Lib-Dems"
Of course. I was just adjusting your sentence, "the opposition parties were duped" ... better to say that the MAIN opposition party, along with the governing party, were duped - but certain other opposition parties (including the next biggest one, the LibDems) were not.
"WMD were obviously not a factor in the Afghan invasion. Who knows what the policy would have been if Al Quaeda had been operating from Iran or N. Korea or Russia? Maybe the host countries wouldn't have been as opposed to weeding them out as the Taleban were"
Yes, it's interesting to speculate. But it seems a cast iron fact that you're better protected from western aggression if you're tooled up. Only two ways to counter that (very unhelpful) message ...
1. DO attack WMD states.
2. DON'T attack defenceless states.
(1) I think we'd both agree is not the way to go.
Leaves (2).
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197
Yes I know Glasgow isnt in England and only came to mind because of the football thing, sorry Scots.
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House of Commons debate May 1912:
The day after the Boer forces surrendered I was discussing the length of their resistance with General Smuts, and he informed me that one of the things that helped them most was the fact that they habitually tapped our telegraph wires and decoded our messages. He said that it did not take more than three or four hours or their telegraphists to find them out It is perfectly obvious a code is not sufficient protection in time of war. In another sense wireless is not exclusive because the recipient of a wireless message cannot tell who he is receiving from. If an opponent is in possession of our code he may be in the position to mislead our troops or our officials or our ships, which would be most dangerous.
We often criticise MPs nowadays, but have they not got the same problem with mass communications today in the same way that MPs in days of yore had with even the telegraphic system all those years ago. If as Brown says we are at war then maybe a formal declaration would not go amiss, so that we can have action this day. The government must face facts, we have lost in Afghanistan, it is only a matter of time before we formally quit, and leave it yet again to America to sort out.
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Re :198
In the context Im talking about saga Iraq in itself is irrelevant. I am talking about the general principle of whether England should support its allies when attacked.
However for arguments sake I am not convinced that the war was illegal but neither am I convinced it was legal either which I know sounds like fence sitting.
No one has adequately explained to me how a Government of this country that allegedly percieved a threat to it did not have the right to take military action.
You should not infer from that support for the Iraq war or otherwise. It is just a question that I find is not answered by the current debate.
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sa @ 203
Okay, fair enough.
You are sitting on the fence, and why not? It's a perfectly reasonable thing to do. The world would probably be a better place, in fact, if there were a whole lot more SOTF.
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xtun @ 175
I agree with more or less all of your post, but am moved to pursue this bit ...
"The big unanswered question for me is why the FBI supervised the evacuation of 20 of the Bin Laden family in a private jet back to Saudi 3 days after 9/11 whilst anyone who looked or sounded "suspect" was held"
Because I'm not sure what you're driving at. Perhaps you could speculate?
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Andrew,
just how much more interesting Brown becomes with each passing day. 'Chemical Ali' is executed, and bombs go off in Baghdad, what nothing to do with it. There will be total lock down in London on Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday. I am just so glad that I am no longer a commuter in London.
Why do I find Brown more interesting because near the end of his press conference today he only went and said 'to be honest' I mean that is the first time I have heard him use that term, maybe he could use it on Wednesdays in the commons, I mean he might actually answer a question. Mind you it would draw attention to him now having to use the term all the time, otherwise we can presume that he is not being honest when answering a question.
I can only hope that the Speaker stops Brown forever going on about conservative policies, it is questions to the PM, about his government. If Bercow does not stop this misuse then it will even further bring parliament into disrepute. Get a grip Speaker, or you seriously as weak as many of us think you are! As for planted questions from the back benchers! However, others should not make statements, rather than ask questions.
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#200 saga
You're slipping, saga. In my earlier post (#168) I did not refer to 'the opposition parties', I simply referred to 'opposition parties' - in a general sense, which negates your argument.
Regarding WMD, Iraq was ostensibly attacked BECAUSE it was supposed to have these weapons.
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Re :206
Interesting to note that both Cameron and Brown in their press conferences referred to the English today.
Cameron talking about the Scottish NHS said "the English Version" lol
Brown referred to "the people of England"
I think that is only the second time I have heard Brown or Cameron refer to England in any way whatsoever.
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Hey Taggy meole Buddy. Did you know that Carrilion had sold their Exeter PFI schools programme. Dont ask me to whom,I know not but I wasn't aware,were you.
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Taggy
I took this from the Carillion website.
In June 2009, we sold investments in two projects - Exeter Schools and Renfrewshire Schools - generating total proceeds of £13.8 million, which reflected a net present value for the cash flows from these investments based on a discount rate of some 8 per cent. Over the last six years Carillion has sold investments in a total of 25 projects, generating proceeds of approximately £194 million and a pre-tax profit of some £107 million.
Questions for you Taggy.
1.Why would Carrilion sell 5 brand new schools worth 300million over 25 years for 13 million.
2.Who are the new owners.
3.What the F happening to our schools
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Andrew,
I think that it is fair to say that Brown was questioned on the banks during his press conference this morning and that he made reference to Northern Rock, which he wanted to stress had been 'nationalised'. he was then questioned on football clubs in financial trouble. Would he like to explain why the nationalised bank, Northern rock, which Alasair Darling had a mortgage with, has continued to sponsor the foorball club known as Newcastle United to the tune of some millions of pounds.
Is this what nationalisation leads to, sponsoring football clubs, who then pay their players large sums of money. A bit like the bankers really.
As for Northern Rock being nationalised, have the staff signed the Official Secrets Act, are they paid by the state? Where do the debts lie?
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Are Unison failing their duty of care to the Exeter Teachers ref the unsafe PFI schools??
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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205 Saga
Speculate or elaborate ? The latter would take pages as the whole sorry debacle, like the air traffic control system reaction to the hi jackings,is pages and pages long and therev for all to read on many web pages and sites.
Speculate. Because the Bin Laden family have Saudi Royal connections so even tho many hundreds of Arabis and South Muslims with no connection were detained, and never charged with any connection,those with a direct connection to the alleged and self admitted person behind the attack were helped to leave the country.
In many serious crimes the first suspects and those liable to questoning for information are close family. Not in the USA it appears , especially when they have Saudi Royal connections.
Nobody will ever know if they had information about Ossama"s whereabouts as they were not held for questioning but helped to leave the country as soon as airports reopened.
The other unfortunates with no connection were held for months in some cases and mistreated and held in solitary.
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Taggy
You asked the Devon Couny Council this question in July 04, maybe you should ask the same ? now
QUESTION FROM MR T GRIFFIN
Re: Exeter Schools PFI
Can Devon County Council confirm in respect of the Exeter schools PFI that the chosen contractor, Mowlem cannot transfer the schools to a third party? For example, if they set up a company for the purposes of building running or repairing the schools that they then cannot sell their holding in that company to another financial institution without notifying the taxpayer of Devon, through the council? If the share holding is sold on can DCC confirm what they have done to protect the investment made by the taxpayer of Devon? Have you written into the contract a method by which any profit on the disposal will be transferred back to the Council? In your glossy brochure Shaping the Future you refer to the PFI as being similar to a mortgage. Can the contractor remortgage the Exeter PFI schools? Finally, it is stated in the same document that "over 100 million is being invested in school buildings to provide high quality education for the children of Exeter". Can the council please confirm how much is being spent on the bricks and mortar and how much to the profits of the contractor? It is the taxpayer who has the long term obligation to meet these costs not councillors and we must be sure that taxpayers money is not going into the pockets of speculators and City financiers
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mike @ 207
"You're slipping, saga. In my earlier post (#168) I did not refer to 'the opposition parties', I simply referred to 'opposition parties' - in a general sense, which negates your argument"
Slipping! Ha! We're not having an "argument". You said "opposition parties were duped" - which, yes, without the "the" in front has a slightly less concrete feel to it - it could mean either all of the parties OR some of the parties, whereas WITH the "the" in front it has a rather more definitive "ALL the parties" vibe to it. So maybe no great need for me to point out that the LibDems weren't duped - although it sure didn't hurt - but in pointing out that the Governing party too were duped, I feel I added significant value.
"Regarding WMD, Iraq was ostensibly attacked BECAUSE it was supposed to have these weapons"
And therein lies the rub. Ostensibly attacked because they were supposed to have them ... actually attacked because they didn't. Alice Through The Looking Glass.
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xtun @ 213
Ah I see. High level connections in an oil producing "Friend of the West" trumps "Round 'em all up!" paranoia. Yes, I suppose. And what's bugging you so much? ... the double standards?
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Andrew - What fun the DP was today, although I am getting a bit tired of all this shouting down by each politician.
Any one else noticed that fuel is now £1.13 (or there abouts down here in Surrey). The Government wobbled when there were fuel protests before it broke the £1.00 barrier.
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#208 sa
Only having seen a short clip of Brown's press conference performance today, I missed his reference to 'the people of England' that you quote. It sounds like a slip of the tongue. He's never mentioned anything but Britain and the British before, as far as I can remember. Depending on the context, was he accidentally revealing himself to be different, or was he trying to align himself with the majority of the May voters?
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Seeing that the tragic loss of our soldiers is becoming such a regular and monotonous weekly event, wouldn't it have crossed the minds of our commanders perhaps to change tactics ?
I presume that these are small patrols in view of the fact that there is never any mention of any attempt to find or eliminate the persons triggering the explosions, which I presume are not remote control. It must be assumed that there is tacit acceptance by the locals to the laying of the 'traps', so it would seem to be an open invitation to the Taliban. At least if any patrol could cover a large area, it would make anyone intending to launch an attack think twice, and not all those in the patrol would have to concentrate on casualties and defence.
I did read an account of one encounter where an ISAF sniper had been positioned outside a village when one patrol went in. The sniper was able to report by radio the existence of armed insurgents across the street, and that the crippled child they had passed begging for sweets in the road, was acting as spotter for them.
Sending out undermanned patrols to areas where there is no discouragement to locals aiding armed insurgents, and little chance of them suffering a response, I don't see the point. We are protecting people who appear to have no need of our protection. If it's just another example of putting on a show, then I couldn't be more dismayed.
Casualties appear to indicate that pour soldiers are engaged in a war, and their generals should change tactics accordingly. Sending out patrols on missions to show the flag is clearly a failure and reminiscent of a bygone age.
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216 Saga
Double standards is putting it mildly.
To arrest, detain and mistreat hundreds of people who had no connection whatsoever with the attack whilst helping the attackers family back to Saudi beggars belief.
Shall we say it shows strange investigatory ideas.
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Re:218
Either that or fear that "the people of England" are about to have their revenge.
Hopefully it will be good riddance to Brown and his authoritarian drunk with power Government.
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Andrew
Next time you have a Labour Minister on could you please ask them about this.
I think you all should read it.
http://wakinghereward.blogspot.com/2010/01/kirsty-winstanley-english-victim-of.html
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Not content with the £3 Billion that it gets of the public it seems the BBC has now been getting "loans" from the EU
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/tv_and_radio/article3257748.ece
Which begs the question as this article says of how the public can trust the BBC to be impartial in its reporting of European matters.
The BBC gets more disgraceful by the day. Whichever manager etc decided this was a good idea should be sacked immediately.
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The first question to be asked is why Lord Myners still has a job after his first monumental blunder over RBS ? Is incompetenceis a City job pre-requisite ?
For Gordon to start playing his 'I'm leading the world' tune, when actually no one else is even listening is taking bravura to the point of high comedy. Compared with Obama, the only thing Gordon's leading is a retreat.
Gordon is protecting the banks, and whatever his motives are, we have effectively handed the banks an unwritten guarantee that is of incalculable worth, and freed them to really go wild on world markets in the future.
The silly levy is worthless dross. A bank, under current circumstancs, can gamble that away in seconds. Banks and regulators were unable to quantify risk before the crash and no one's identified a means of doing so again.
Lord Myners' appeared totally lost and clueless when Vince Cable threw some facts at him. Lord Myners has an agenda without an explanation and he really isn't convincing.
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The banks, Gomer, the banks ... what are we going to do with the wretched things?
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xtun @ 220
Strange investigatory techniques ... Mmm.
Surprised there was no PoL on the Iraq blog. Must have found better things to do.
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#218
Brown effectively employees hindreds of people to view blogs like Andrew's. He knows how we are feeling. He seriously thinks by reading your blogs Andrew, and the comments, that he can appeal to us by changing his terminology...England indeed, he doesn't have a clue, beautiful isn't it!
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Good morning each & Andrew.
#227 Catch22
Your coining of, 'hindreds' says it all.
Is the future of our next government to be worked out on the battlefields of NI?
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#228
one of my infamous typos I'm afraid. I really should use a spell checker, but then I would probably have to think more. Mind you it was good wasn't it, with the benefit of hindsight, which of course we are not meant to have with WMD. The other problem is Tom that if you look at the events in the couple of days before WWI then I always get worried when politicians start raising the stakes in NI. Remember the Dublin Mutiny! At least you've brought a smile to the face of this old grumpy, cheers.
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Up until Christmas I was using BA for all my US Bound flights and bmi for Middle eastern countries..
I'm inclined to agree with you, I will be shopping around for flights a lot more now they're having another strike. Flying is risky enough without more, ridiculous, disruptions. If they keep striking, they're just going to end up out of jobs anyway by bankrupting the whole company. Its virtually there anyway.
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