What was that about teapots and kettles?
We live in an increasingly sloppy world these days, especially when it comes to journalism.
The Sun has made much of the apparent mistakes in Gordon Brown's letter to the mother of a soldier killed in action, including getting her name wrong (he called her "Ms James" when her name is Mrs Janes).
Now a Sky News blog post has fun at the expense of The Sun, pointing out that:
"The Sun's Political Editor, Tom Newton Dunn, has just spent the entire Politics Show over on the Beeb calling Labour's Phil Woolas [a government minister] 'Andy'. Easy mistake to make no doubt, but not as easy as calling Jamie Janes Jamie James! Talk about the teapot calling the kettle black."Sky News should be careful about kettles and teapots. It is true that the Sun's political editor called Phil Woolas "Andy", but it wasn't on the Politics Show: it was on our very own Daily Politics! What was that about teapots and kettles, Sky?
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Andrew (Neil), Andy or Phil (Woolas) and Tom Newton Dunn on the DP (or Politics Show!)
So this is what it has come to: the Sun attacks Gordon Brown for getting a name wrong. The Sun's new political editor then gets the minister's name wrong, calling him "Andy" throughout his interview on the Daily Politics, then Sky has a laugh at his expense at its blog - but then gets the name of our programme wrong in the process.
Sloppy. Sloppy. Sloppy. Perhaps we all need to take a deep breath, calm down and concentrate on what's important, like the recession, unemployment and our predicament in Afghanistan.
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Good Morning Andrew,
or should it be Andy? Anyway, whatever. In the meantime the army soldier Joe Glenton is arrested today, what an absolute coincidence. On the day we remember the soldiers who followed orders, who did what they were told. Then they arrest Glenton.
Glenton, who is already facing Courts Martial for going AWOL, is arrested. Just as the reality of the death of Mr Mousa at the hands of British soldiers is revealed, then they arrest Glenton, you can't make it up. It is some time since he attended a Stop the War demonstration, so why not arrest before toiday, pure coincidence eh what Andrew. Or should it be Anita.
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Well said Andrew
We are in the midst of a recession but the press have chosen to score cheap political points rather than concentrate on the real issues of the day.
I am sure the bereaved family were upset but this furore does no one any good and was certainly not done for the benefit of the family.
It is time to move on
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Re: The PM's letter of condolence.
The Sun is cynically milking a few spelling mistakes for political purposes. As usual, the Sun is not to be trusted. It always has an ulterior motive, which is never very pleasant. I am the last person to congratulate Gordon Brown or New Labour on very much at all, but at least on this occasion the PM took the time to write a letter. Instead of carping, the woman should be grateful. And what happened to the stiff upper lip, anyway? Why do we now have this urge to bare all our emotions in such a public way? Nul points for the Sun and the woman who complained.
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Andrew,
unemployment figures released, where do they go? Plymouth, you can't make it up. Lot's of jobs as an Elf, so could they get jobs with 'Elf and safety'. In the meantime I like many others have turned 60, so why would I sign on. They will put you onto Pensioners Credit, so nobody over sixty will sign on. Not if they get more money by not signing on, please do not insult our intelligence.
Knight on Radio 5, the numbers of in work have gone up. Help people through unemployment, an extra thirty five thousand jobs, billions more pounds. Millions being helped through Jobseekers Plus. Doubling of numbers coming through the door. Youth unemployment, most importantly we're doing better on youth unemployment than other European countries. Future jobs fund, allocation of resources, jobs subsidy, skills training, why not sign up to the army, 'You're country needs you'.
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I've just signed in again and your web page shows MY PASSWORD instead of my user name!!!
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#5
stop moaning, don't you realise that the computer analysts have been trying their hardest, it's a good thing they don't have anything to do with the war, we have lost long ago. Sodliers are dying so that we have democracy, freedom, keeping terror off the streets and all you can do is moan. I don't know Andrew, just what is the world coming to.
Please understand that I am being ironic, because we really can't make it up, can we? I mean am really very shy, and I don't sing at church because I sing out of key, and I don't write to you personally because my handwriting is not very good, and I don't bow because I forget because I might trip over when I step back-wards, you know I have very bad eye-sight. But Anderw I can't type very well either because I have to turn the lights orf because I can't afford the lecky.
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# 3
Apparently evry PM in living memory has written the same notes Little-Tyke, so Gordon wasn't actually doing something unusual or special. If I'd written a scruffy handwritten note to my grandmother with crossed out spelling mistakes, I'd have had to watch out for her left hook.
I don't consider it any less shameful than Milliband's false accusations of anti-Semitism when he knows it's untrue. Politics is a dirty business and if you choose to wallow in the mire, don't get upset if you get some thrown back at you.
It seems to have shamed Gordon into buying some Chinooks. It's a just a pity they're not likely to arrive in Afghanistan until after we've left. Anyone fancy a second hand Chinook ?
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"Instead of carping, the woman should be grateful. And what happened to the stiff upper lip, anyway? Why do we now have this urge to bare all our emotions in such a public way? Nul points for the Sun and the woman who complained."
Yes. Stiff upper lip.
When your son, your flesh and blood, just 20 years old, has half his face missing, two of his limbs blown off and bleeds to death. When he's been in uniform 8 months and in a war zone already.
Ostensibly to protect us from terror, but in reality to prop up a corrupt government full of warlords who's most recent election was widely criticised by observers to have been stolen.
Yes. Must grumble.
Mustnt complain, eh, especially about that nice Mr Brown, who takes the time out of his busy schedule writing books about courage to ring you at 10pm on a Sunday night.
I'm sure she feels rightly chastised by your words of wisdom, little tyke.
What a searing political visionary you are.
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Good morning each & Andrew.
I see some news breaking on the Guardian site.
No mention of political reform in the Queen's speech.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/nov/10/electoral-reform-bill-queens-speech
I shall just have to bide my time for the election where political reform of some sort is assured.
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Andrew,
all criticism must end immediately. If you are not for me you are against me, all resistance is futile, do as you are told, we have reached the end of the road to serfdom. Brown so looks as though he really wishes that he was somewhere else. The war to end all wars, please we are all such hypocrits.
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I saw John Simpson interview two Afghans who said they'd hate to have the Taliban back in power, and then he announced that overwhelming numbers of Afghans want us to be there. Perhaps not an overwhelmingly representative sample to base such a sweeping comment on, but even if true, it doesn't give justification for invading a country just because the locals don't like who'd gain power, or we'd soon be facing invasion ourselves - and half of Africa and most of the Middle East.
Perhaps he should have also asked whether they wanted Karzai as their installed leader.
I hear that Gordon is also now touting that the already planned concentration to central bases is the first step in pulling out. Funny - first it wasn't a retreat and now it's the first step in withdrawal. It's a pity he can't spin the casualties, as being on permanent leave. Does anyone know what button you have to press to get Gordon to tell the truth ?
We know why troops are being pulled back, and it's very sensible, but don't spin it as being something else - please.
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...Gordon's trouble is that he is an honest man in a dishonest buiness. It is that the truth is known to him that his steps falter. Where with his predecessor truth held no thrall and there was ever a ready smile for every occasion.
Drats! Then there is this 'off balancesheet' thing that he claimed as his own. Another theory bites the dust?
I may write to him in the new year and ask him to stand under the 'Option4' ticket. He may well be an asset in an honest Parliament.
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Andrew
It was a sad day when you stepped down as editor of the Sunday Times. Although I am still a reader it is not the must read it once was. They still have good writers that occasionally are let off the leash but there is little incisive and investigative journalism.
The management in all newspapers are always seeking to cut costs to the extent that reporters are encouraged to surf the internet to dig up stories, and it is too easy to cut and paste rather than check up on it's veracity. As you say it is sloppy, as readers of on-line versions can instantly cross-check using web browsers.
A lot of people on these blogs moan about bias especially in the political arena, but my moan is the factual mis-representation which can occur in tabloids and broadsheets alike. It is odd that in the age of the internet which in theory should spark more debate, more passing of knowledge and reason that the reverse is in fact happening. That 75 years ago where only books and newspapers existed there was more philosophical discussion and lateral thinking, we now are being shoe-horned into some kind of mind meld of monolithic thought otherwise we will be viewed as an enemy of the state.
But the MSM media are complicit and are shown up as such by the independent bloggers. The expenses scandal is a good example, as the MSM lobby journalists knew some of what was going on (maybe not all) but chose to take a vow of omerta. The other fascinating thing when you compare the two media types is that when bloggers get it wrong, they tend to make an immediate and unreserved apology, whereas MSM media will print a small retraction in one of the inside pages.
Another example, and one mentioned frequently in other posts here is why are we in Afghanistan. The Government version is barely credible and so shot through with holes that it would be best used as a colander in a kitchen. By and large the MSM toe the Government line, yet independent reporters out in Afghanistan, who do get out and about evading the MOD minders (much to the chagrin of the MOD no doubt) paint a different story from the sanitised pulp we see on the 6 O'Clock news.
I have an inquiring mind, and at the moment my trust in the political process, democracy and now the Fourth Estate (media) is at an all time low. I can read a couple of other languages and the in depth analysis available on news stories varies considerably around the world. China and the Iron Curtain countries were always secretive, as are the UK Secret and intelligence Services (as they should be) but I fear that UK journalism is now joining this select club. What is worse is that some journalists are doing so enthusiastically - I do not expect to see a British Washington Post type espose a la Woodward or Bernstein any time soon.
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Fubar-Saunders: The woman was wholly exploited by the Sun for political reasons and she went along with it. I see she's rowing back now that she is receiving much negative commentary directed at her. Can't you see that the tape recording (a recording, I ask you!) was made in order to further blacken the PM? Cynical, unfair and underhand. But, hey! That's the Sun for ya! Why fight clean when you can fight dirty?
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14#
Yep. Bit like the 94 old woman who was left on an NHS trolley for god knows how long but who was swiftly denounced within 48 hours as racist.
Cant have the PM's name tarnished now can we? All Caring, All Seeing, All benevolent Gordon?
Why fight clean when you can fight dirty? Oh, I dunno, ask McBride, who has had to pay damages to Nadine Dorres, who was on the verge of planting a story about the death of Ivan Cameron being down to something that his father did many years before, which that oily rag McGuire hinted at in a Mirror column last year.
You never complained when the Sun was being cynical, unfair and underhand so long as it suited your advantage, as long as it was your lies it was printing. Now it turns on you, on Mandelson, on the Dear Leader and lo, theres uproar.
Its all well and good for you to slag off The Sun, who you spent years courting, but that doesnt stop you slagging off the mother of a twenty year old soldier who died on active service.
You lot make me sick to my stomach. I dont know how vermin like you can sleep at night.
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13#
Well said, ecb.
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Well one thing that you can say is that it has helped the Sun sell a lot more papers, which is really what it needed in the midst of this nasty nasty recession
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Fubar_Saunders 2:31pm on 11 Nov 2009: This particular argument is not about a 94-year-old woman, or about any of the other red herrings you slipped into your increasingly weak case: McBride, Nadine Dorries, Ivan Cameron, the Mirror. It's about the manufactured spat that the Sun instigated in order to do the PM down on the basis of a few spelling mistakes. And according to the Daily Telegraph upwards of 65% of respondents agree with me that the Sun's campaign was inappropriate.
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Am I the only person who is aware that the Sun's political editor was making a joke by deliberately misaddressing Phil Woolas as Andy to emphasise the importance of getting a person's name right and that Gordon Brown's mistake was inexcusable?
I am stunned that Andrew seems not to have realised what was going on.
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18#
If you ride the tiger, thats what you get when it turns on you. He spent ten years scheming to get the top job and wasnt averse to stabbing Blair in the back in The Sun to get what he wanted.
If he cant take it, he shouldnt have started it.
So, do you think like that because the Mirror or Charlie Whelan tells you to or can you think for yourself?
The only reason the stats are as loaded as they are is that Whelan's rebuttal boys have been out in full effect for the last week.
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fs @ 15
"You lot make me sick to my stomach. I don't know how vermin like you can sleep at night"
demented
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Mandelson for 'Minister for Information'?
www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/nov/11/mandelson-tipped-as-information-minister#start-of-comments
If this becomes reality then we are on the road to a banana republic. This title and its remit is popular among dictatorships and one party states. Usually referred to as the 'Minister for Misinformation' for obvious reasons.
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Like you and Nick I think the next few months is going to be a time when nothing will make any sense so what's the point in trying to make sense our of it. It's the general public I feel most sorry for for the long run up to a general election looks like being one of the dirtiest campaigns we will ever see.
Texting and message boards are not being used for sensible positive messages but are full of abuse venom and negativity towards those who try to have sensible views.
Internet bullying is as bad as any other type of bullying. It would be such a shame if those who did hold decent sensible views were to opt out altogether from giving us their opinion. At the end of the day it is not a particular party that is despised but those who are presently running it.
The political parties involved should be aware that the public aren't stupid and do not act like sheep and don't trust any of them. Dirty electioneering helps no-one but the minority parties so who's really stupid.
The last straw is Brown at PM's questions goding Cameron for not holding a referendum on Lisbon. Was I hearing things from the man who promised us the referendum ignored it and signed the blooming thing anyway.
How can anyone really take this politicking seriously enough to spend the next six months trying to make any sense out of it.
I know it's your job and somebody has to do it so good luck.
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21#
Well, what else do you call people who peddle lies then Saga?
Apart from "Comrade" perhaps???
You cant rebutt any of the other points though can you?
Save your faux outrage for someone who gives a monkeys.
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22.
Here's the proper link.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/nov/11/mandelson-tipped-as-information-minister
Apologies for the 'banana republic' comment @22... I forgot I was here and not on Nick's blog. Still in reactionary mode.
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fubar @ 24
have you heard the one about this Blustery Blogger who posts up that Gordon Brown is a "Sociopath" and that Labour supporters are "Vermin", but who gets all offended ... you know, really really Upset ... by comments suggesting David Cameron might not have needed a mortgage to buy his constituency property? ... so upset and offended that he refers them to the Moderators?
it's a Killer
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I was brought up not to tell lies Saga. I was brought up told that people in glass houses shouldnt throw stones. I was brought up told that if you break the law, you face the consequences and may go to prison.
How were you brought up?
Were you brought up to peddle half truths and lies?
Were you brought up to say whatever you want to say and damn the consequences?
Were you brought up thinking that the law was only for little people?
Well? How did your mother bring you up?
Do you have any values?
Apart from that clear thinking flannel which nobody buys?
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bluster
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28#
You cant answer it can you?
Simple questions, which any grown adult should be able to answer honestly and clearly.
But thats your answer to ANYTHING you cant answer.
"bluster".
Nobody can take anything you say seriously mate. You dont stand for anything except yourself. You have no values, I assume?
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When Gordon was interviewed for the job of PM, did no one think to consider his ability to communicate ? There is some intended irony in that comment.
When he speaks at PMQ's I always get the idea that he ends answers with an unspoken 'Stick that up your ****', and he has this mouse going round the wheel in his head that everyone would agree with him if only he explained it better. Gordon - we understand fine. He does remind me of that annoying person in class who spoke and expected his opinion to be correct, because he's worked it out with a slide rule, ignoring the fact that an opinion is only that, and we have the right to differ, or maybe not. Hint - sagamix, you aren't Gordon are you ?
Lord Mandelson is a better communicator - but hasn't Gordon noticed that he's not well liked ? - and his simpering manner unnerves my cat.
I presume this means that Gordon thinks he could win the election ?
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Good evening Andrew,
saw and heard Bradshaw on the Daily Politics. I thought that your colleague, Ncick Robinson was spot on when Bradshaw tried to get away Brown and spending money and Robinson was allowed to make his comments, comments to which Bradshaw had absolutely no answer to.
As for me I have a problem. In the early days of the second Afghjnaistan occupation, they should be treated as two separate occupations, then we have to look at our casualties, not the deaths yet but the injuries. Now these barve soldiers were taken back with their severe injuries, they were saved, even though they suffred appalling injuries. Lost limbs, press saying about their treatment, the costs. So not many died, but were saved.
Now this is where I get contentious, it is much cheaper for a soldier to die, yes there is compensation to pay, but not the continuing costs. So, through some means or others the wonderful Ministry of Defence have issued orders. Do not save the injured soldiers, they are actually better off dead. no more continuing costs, no more soldiers being insulted, no more soldiuers on parade with no arms and legs. Yes, I think that there has been a definite change of policy, let 'em die, let's save money.
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just watched the beginning of PMQs where I noticed David Cameron possibly having a go at the prime minister while reading out a list of the casualties from Afghanistan. He said Alam then corrected himself to Alan. I hope it was a genuine mistake as if it was an attempt at mockery it is in unbelievably poor taste.
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32. dhwilkinson:
just watched the beginning of PMQs where I noticed David Cameron possibly having a go at the prime minister while reading out a list of the casualties from Afghanistan. He said Alam then corrected himself to Alan. I hope it was a genuine mistake as if it was an attempt at mockery it is in unbelievably poor taste.
Whoa dh, looks like you're also having a reaction to too much Sun.
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Isn't there a stage at which Lord Minky has so many Cabinet positions, he's obliged to put in a formal bid ?
After being berated about his letter writng skills, it's rather cringey for Gordon to be substituted by one of his own side for verbal communication too.
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33 blame
maybe!
He said Allem first then corrected it to Allen. Like James and Janes. Probably nothing in it. It's on iPlayer.
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Saw and heard Bradshaw on the Daily Politics. I thought that your colleague, Nick Robinson, was spot on when Bradshaw tried to get away with comments and Brown spending money and Robinson was allowed to make his comments, comments to which Bradshaw had absolutely no answer to.
As for me I have a problem. In the early days of the second Afghanistan occupation, they should be treated as two separate occupations, then we have to look at our casualties, not the deaths yet but the injuries. Now these brave soldiers were taken back with their severe injuries, they were saved, even though they suffered appalling injuries. Lost limbs, press saying about their treatment, the costs. So not many died, but were saved.
Now this is where I get contentious, it is much cheaper for a soldier to die, yes there is compensation to pay, but not the continuing costs. So, through some means or others the wonderful Ministry of Defence have issued orders. Do not save the injured soldiers, they are actually better off dead. No more continuing costs, no more soldiers being insulted, no more soldiers on parade with no arms and legs. Yes, I think that there has been a definite change of policy, let 'em die, let's save money.
Now I know that this is a repeat of an earlier post but I felt that there were so many typographical errors that I thought I must correct my mistakes. I wonder if there is any way to check my postings before submission. It is just that I get so angry that I can't type as fast as I think. I think that I might just have to go to see my GP!
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The Sun has actually now misspelt Mrs. Janes's name - Brown called her "James", and The Sun called her "Jones" on their site yesterday - here's a screenshot of the mistake:
http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/4907/thesunmistakecrop.jpg
Ironic that The Sun so roundly condemns him, then make an identical mistake themselves.
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34 Gomer
...I think they are referring his bid to the monopolies commission.
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Aww, guyd beat me to it
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I found this tawdry business with the tapes sickening. It's not often that news stories make me feel that way. I've got a pretty strong constitution and never feel the need to switch-over if some sort of "health-warning" precedes a news report. It just goes to show how bad this particular episode in the annals of tabloid/chequebook (delete as applicable) journalism really is.
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For heavens sake Brown is a disaster. Everything he touches turns to dross. So why should anybody be surprised that he cannot write a condolence letter without igniting a volcano.
But, on the letter, he meant well, and his imperfections are not worthy of the storm that has been created.
I have no time for the man and want him gone ASAP. but this is not the stick to beat him with.
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dh @ 35
"He said Allem first then corrected it to Allen"
disgrace
have The Sun picked it up?
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Good morning each & Andrew.
#23 virtualsilverlady
Maybe it is the Party itself that is to blame.
Politicians all defer to party before they ever think about listening to we--the--people. It would be a mistake to think that by losing the odd individual this alone will change anything. What we need are far fewer Party Politicians in the next Parliament. After all, over the years when Governments have changed the HoCs has remained much the same. There lies the root cause of the nonchalance of MPs and there 'sainted' partys.
VFO4OM. I say.
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This is not just the media slagging off other media it is Murdoch media slagging off other Murdoch media. Do they have no shame whatsoever?
Having had correspondence with Mr.Woolas, I would never consider him at all handy.
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@42 Saga
No they are not ready to put the boot into golden balls yet - give it another 5 years and he will have a turnip for a head.
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Good Morning Andrew,
apparently Brown will be giving a speech today on immigration. I hope that he also mentions that British people must also not emigrate. It is arrogant and hypoctratic to say that we must have a policy which restricts immigration but then we just allow British people to go where they like, depending on the immigration policy of the country where they want to go.
As for immigration I want Brown to publicly denounce 'Andy' Woolass for his crass, but I think honest comment, that one of the reasons why we are in Afghanistan is to prevent the Afghan people from seeking asylum in this country because of the threats they face in their own country. I am still not satisfied with the appalling treatment of those Iraqis who assitsted our brave soldiers in Iraq and who have been treated disgracefully by this shamed government.
I want Brown to clarify the position over asylum seekers, as well as economic migrants, and those who just want a better life. Especially though I want our government to clarify the position over individuals who face prosecution in their own country who have sought and been given 'asylum' because they have done 'stuff' in their home country.
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alter ego @ 45
yes I can just see it now! ... a new media friendly (non Scottish) Labour leader and "Cam the Sham" headlines all over the place
what IS the point (?) I ask you
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Andrew,
listened to Brown giving his speech with 'Andy' Woolass by his side. I'm sorry but what an absolute disgrace. Has it really come to this.
We must not take from countries where there are shortages in certain skills; nursing, computer skills, engineers, chemists, for example. I find it totally abjectly unacceptable that a nurse could possibly be allowed to leave her country, and take her skills with her, on the basis that we need her. Well her country needs her more than we do. This is a serious issue and it is not that we should look at our needs, we should look at the needs of the country the individual wants to emigrate from.
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Minister of Immigration Phil Woolas being called "Andy"?
I am sure that hundreds of thousands of UK forward thinking people would have another name for this man. Unfortunately they will all be unprintable.
Catch 22:I am still not satisfied with the appalling treatment of those Iraqis who assitsted our brave soldiers in Iraq and who have been treated disgracefully by this shamed government.
I was in Iraq in June. A leading city councillor from a very violent area of Baghdad asked me, with others, of what his chances of repatriation was in helping the allies. He had been subject to two assassination attempts on his life including his car being blown up.
I could only state that Britain was laggardly in this respect, and the USA a little better, but his best bet was to work for Scandinavian forces, who were the only ones with a good record in this respect.
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48 Catch22
It would be interesting to know how many immigrant nurses are in the NHS as a hospital nurse friend seems to have more Fillipino colleagues than British.
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Saga @47
not to forget the inevitable "Boff the Toff" and finally "he's Eton my hamster"
We'll compare notes in 5 years time ... and see what depths they have plumbed but we would be universally challenged to sink as low as them.
At least we will know it was the Sun wot dun it.
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Catch22 @48
You raise a serious point here, we are plundering the resources of some of these countries who have funded the training of said nurses and engineers. It is to be hoped that their fragile economies are not propping up our infrastructure.
PS Like the new moniker - has Exxon metamorphosed yet?
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48/50#
Thats a side of it that never gets brought up, how we are contributing to other nation's brain drain.
Never mind.
What with nursing becoming a graduate profession over the next year or two, maybe it'll be somewhere for all these meedja studies/sociology/PPPE grads to go into, as against flipping burgers....
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53#
Fubes:
You forgot something.
These nurses'll leave uni, depending on how many of them actually make it - they'll be saddled with 5 years of student debt at about 30,000 quid, and because theyre graduates
1)they'll get put onto wards thinking that emptying bedpans and cleaning is beneath them
2) They'll expect to be paid better because they're graduates
3) The cleaning and MRSA/Cdiff infection control scrubbing will still get left to the agency nurses from the Philippines
Great thinking Gordon!!! Real joined up stuff!!!
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Andrew,
I notice your question which you put to Woolass but he is perfecting the technique of reuting the allegation before the question can be properly put to him. He should be asked about the risks of leaving Afghnaistan, and the effect on asylum seekers. He has opened Pandorra's Box and he should be given the opportunity to say that his original comments have been grossly misinterpreted, but at the same time explain fully what he now thinks.
I would ask him these questions:
'If we withdraw from Afghanistan is the government going to take action to prevent anybody from the region seeking asylum in this country?'
'If we withdraw from Afghanistan after the general election will you fully support any future government if they were to impose a total ban on anybody seeking asylum from the region?'
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Andrew,
there is the beginning of a new debate about corruption in Afghanistan. Maybe we and our allies are just as corrupt as the Quisling Karzai.
For example, Brown mentioned in his 'British jobs for British people' speech that we needed more geologists. Now I thought that's starnge why do we need more trained geologists. Then I read my online copy of the Boston Globe:
'James Yeager, an American geologist, earned $700 a day for six months to advise Afghanistan’s Ministry of Mines on developing the country’s mineral resources. But there was one problem: The minister didn’t want his advice.
'The minister just did it his way,’’ Yeager said. “He didn’t even want to hear about it.’’
Since 2003, about two-thirds of the nearly $30 billion in international aid to Afghanistan has been routed through foreign consultants, companies, and organizations hired by the US government and its allies to help Afghan officials write laws, set up banks, and otherwise help run the country. The foreign advisers became so powerful and numerous that they constituted a de facto shadow government.
Now, the Obama administration plans to send hundreds more American advisers as part of a so-called civilian surge, increasingly seen in Washington as perhaps as important as the pending decision about whether to send more troops.
'But Afghan officials have begun to push back, complaining the Americans are often overpaid, underqualified, and unfamiliar with the culture of the country. Even the best, most qualified advisers can sow mistrust because they answer to the US government or firms rather than to Afghan officials.
Add on the costs of security, accommodations, and support, and the cost reaches about $2,000 per day, or $500,000 a year, usually paid to a US firm, according to Paul O’Brien, a vice president at Oxfam America, a Boston-based international relief organization that monitors aid effectiveness'.
Accordingly, I would suggest that there must be an inquiry into what is actually happening to the billions of pounds which Brown has sanctioed to be spent in Afghanistan. How much is not actually going to the army, but to the private security firms, the mercenaries who are providing security. We know that many former soldiers, both in the ranks and the officers and generals now work for private contracting firms, how much are they earning?
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56 catch22
You forgot one other category of expenditure. How much is paid out as graft and corruption and how much of that ends up in the hands of the Taliban?
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catch22
Contrast the billions spent by UK Aid and US Aid, with the charitable efforts of Greg Mortensen who can get a school built in Afghanistan or Pakistan for as little as USD 50,000.
http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/best-leaders/2009/10/22/greg-mortenson-promotes-peace-through-girls-schools.html
I once wrote to DFID asking why their efforts were so different from the clear success of Mortensen, and received the terse reply "we know of him". Quite frankly the aid industry is big business and competing nations act more akin to a couple of teenage boys competing in a p***ing match to see who can p*** the furthest.
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58#
Basically because DFID are too trouser-wettingly scared of leaving their compounds in Kabul. They just sit back coining in the overseas allowances/danger money letting the troops get on with what they should be doing.
Wasters the lot of 'em. Close the whole damned department.
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Andrew,
we are now getting authoritative reports into what has been happening to our elderly people, many of whom have been diagnosed with dementia. The trouble is that I think that there is something which is not spoken about. Dementia and and others chronic problems mean that we can keep people alive for as long as we like. If the person is in a care or nursing home it costs a lot of money.
I think we as a society are complicit in something terrible, we are allowing our elderly to die when they could be saved. Only it costs too much. So, we give them drugs! They die sooner than they should. However, it is like young babies born prematurely, or soldiers who are severely injured in Afghanistan, it is better to let them die. Does anybody really want to see long lingering deaths. I don't think so. That is the problem, it is another case for bringing in euthanasia.
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Andrew,
what is this about the senior executives of the BBC being on massive salaries and then holding celebration parties at the expense of the taxpayer. I use the term taxpayer because the licence fee is nothing other than a tax.
This is totally unaccpetable and when they say that their salaries are commensurate with what they could earn in the public sector then sack them, tell them get a job in the private sector, only theire are not any jobs in the private sector for these people. Trust me, they are taking the michael out of us.
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Can anyone explain the logic or lack thereof of having as many people pushing paper in offices and getting bonuses as there are in the army?
What do all these back seat drivers do and why do they receive bonuses?
I have never heard of any military personnel in the field getting a bonus.
This government disgusts me. So much for its protestations of getting money to "front line services." People risking their lives must not be a front line service as far as this government is concerned.
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Andrew,
so Brown says that everybody who wants to be a subject of the Queen should be able to communicate in Englash. Firstly, I am not and will never be a citizen in the UK until such time as somebody passes a law that says I am no longer a subject of the Queen but a citizen, and if I am to be a citizen then I want to be an English citizen, and not British or European.
So my main point, because of Brown I must now insist that all government, both national and local must communicate only be in English. All interpretors should be immediately sacked and if a non-English speaking community thinks that they require an interpretor then they should pay for it.
There should be no communication in any language other then English. If anybody cannot speak in English and they want to receive a benefit of any kind, then tough. As for people speaking in a language other than English in public then they should be told that it is unacceptable, they could for example be confirming that they are planning to implement one of the terrorist attacks which Brown says we must go overseas and kill people for.
This is Browns fault, I have lived and worked overseas, which I think is something which Brown cannot say he has done. He is worse than a little Englander, he's a pathetic little man, absolutely pathetic pandering to the far right, a disgrace, but then again he is not English at all, he's a pathetic Scot. All that people have to do is to go the internet and see and hear what some of the supporters of Celtic think of our brave and heroic soldiers. What they think of Remembrance day!
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Fubar @ 53
"That's a side of it that never gets brought up, how we are contributing to other Nations' brain drain"
What is the "It" you're referring to, please?
Foreigners coming here?
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Andrew,
please understand that Obama is not only talking about a military surge, he is also considering a civilian surge, and that is what is upsetting the Afghans, as soon as you see civilians running your country you realise that it is no different to English Imperialism in India, where we had the civil service and then used local soldiers to implement our policy of control. It was India which has laid down the method for any country to impose their will on another. The Germans could not work out how we managed to run India with so few people.
As for the civilian surge then refer to my earlier comment about how the local Afghans see our corruption. I reiterate, we and the Americans are just as corrupt as any body else, the dropping of the case into Saudi arms deals, the oil for food programme in Iraq, the Chad/Cameroon oil pipeline project, the list is immense and I didn't even mention our own 'within the rules MPs'.
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54 T-F-Bundy
The current system is relying more and more on agency and the Fillipino nurses.
Has anything been said about what level of qualification thses groups will need in the Future or are we going to have two tier qualifications?
As the agency/Fillipino nurses are expected to do the same job how can they not be required to be as qualified.
I say "expected" to do the same job but as I well know from a hospital nurse friend they cannot or will not and they are often just there to make the numbers up. In fact even the agency nurses are now voting with their feet as they are booke to do one job and moved to a job on arrival that they would not have agreed to do. Some then go home others sit out their shift but do little.
A new PFI hospital is almost ready and nobody wants to go to it. The wards are set up so that the nurses will be doing much more walking from patient to patient. The staffing ratio is 5 nurses to 36 patients. As my friend says , two patients have problems and require attention, often from two nurses, that leaves one for the other 34 patients. As they never get the numbers of staff they should have now, matters in the future could be even worse.
Also the new hospital has no kitchens with meals being brought in. Patients arrive at all times of the day and night and currently a trip to the kitchen can get them food. What will happen in the future ?
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Sticking it where the sun don't shine! Good work Andy!
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I read somewhere that PFI hospitals are not only built by outside contractors but also staffed and operated by them, who then charge the NHS for the patients they handle, and the costs are astronomic when compared with the hospitals they replace. It is the case then that the NHS will tend to use the old facilities rather than the shiny new PFI built ones.
It is reported that Leicestershire and Rutland NHS planned to build three new hospitals to replace the current ones, one of which I had the dubious pleasure to visit, and it provided an interesting historic glimpse of care in a bygone age. The cost was originally in the region of 700 million pounds plus, but it was cancelled when costs rose to nine hundred million pounds plus, and they're being sued for twenty million pounds plus. I did see that my special hospital was being painted on my last visit. If you fall ill in Leicesterhire, make a dash for the border.
I now know why they have trouble following Department of Health guidelines. They don't possess a working fax machine, so they told me.
The issue of dementia and inappropriate medication is a major concern, especially if you've seen the film 'One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest'. The danger is that if you're elderly and complain, then you are in danger of getting dosed. After the Staffordshire Hospital situation I was suspicious that euthenasia already existed within the NHS, this tends to confirm it.
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#66
what you also need to look at is the situation over laundry, and the costs and whether it is being done in house or contracted out. The other thing to look at is the cleaning of medical instruments. Many instruments are used now in GP practices, are we sure that they are being properly cleaned. Are extra costs being incurred because they are now using more disposable instruments, one use, then bin them. Also look at the disposal of yellow boxes, is this now also contracted out?
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Who is this new person we have as PM ?
He's listening to the electorate.
What next ? Extraordinary rendition for bankers ?
I can't imagine why.
He must have been abducted by aliens and replaced with a human.
It's not because of the election is it ?
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68 Gomerpyle
It is much worse than you could imagine my friend. Hospitals us the Mental Capacity Act to declare a patient, usually elderly, incapable of decision making and the doctor decides they will not recover and withdraws food and drink. Not surprisingly they dont recover.
This even has a name "the Liverpool care pathway". Originally intended for use in hospices it has migrated to hospitals and relatives who have objected have been threatened with the police etc. There is a famous case of a vicars wife who was removed by relatives and recovered.
There is a September Telegraph report on the use/misuse of the LCP.
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I was listening to Radio 4 PM on my way home from work. Ye, finally got a job after 10 months of unemployment. Sorry, I now watching as regularly as did before.
What interested me was that Jacqui Janes commented that she had to buy kit for her son to go out to Afghanistan? Does any one know what this was? And why?
The problem is that the armed forces have been underfunded for the period that GB has been chancellor and PM. I am also interested that there are a lot of commonwealth people serving in the army or so it has been suggested. Not sure if South Africa has said their citizens can not serve in our armed forces. It could be the case, that we have contract our defence out.
Now we discovered that MOD civil servants are getting bonuses. Some one somewhere is not doing their job and should not be any bonus.
- 61 Perhaps the license fee could be thought of as the road tax and therefore, some of it could be re-directed to other priorities.
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I know very well from personal experience xTunbridge.
Some parts of my own experience aren't for mention here, but I will publish them at a future date. However, one example - I was caused to scream in pain, which I don't do easily. Having had pain relief witheld from me - not the first time and not the worst example - I asked my elderly mother to fetch me Tramadol, that had been prescribed by my GP in respect of my nephrectomy. It was then taken off me by a senior nurse, not for any medical reason, but just because I had opposed his will. Only when I threatened to call the police for theft, did he return it to me.
Until hospitals and medical staff are judged by patients, and not themselves, Gordon will keep telling us what a wonderful health service we have, and some hospitals will carry on providing appalling standards of care.
I am a supporter of the NHS system, but their targets are only set for the purposes of political propaganda, with little care as to whether or not they represent real achievement. Gordon wants good figures, without any care if they are faked or not. The bank I worked for lived in the real world and didn't allow any massaging of figures.
This is why I get a bit twitchy every time Gordon's mouth opens bragging about his NHS achievements. It's codswallop.
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Andrew,
I am listening to Woodward on Question Time. He is saying that some of these MoD people who receive bonus payments are paid because they go to the front line in Afghanistan. Accordingly, when we say that we have over 9,000 soldiers in Afghanistan, how many of them are actually not real soldiers at all but are from the MoD. What on earth is going on. Who are these moD people, are they soldiers or are they not, Brown is misleading not only us but also all of our allies.
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Dear Andrew
This week is always enjoyable and you are without doubt one of the shrewdest, most knowledgeable, articulate, interesting and enjoyable political commentators to listen to, so why do you over do the, slightly repetitive jokey bits. There is nothing wrong with having a bit of fun and on the whole your sense of humour comes across well and you have good judgment on when to be serious and when not and you are very good at controlling the other speakers, but sorry, too repetitive and a little too much of the getting ready for bed bit. So I am afraid I can only give you 99% for your programme (I find it difficult to give much else on TV more than about 20% except for David Attenborough and the odd play). It was very interesting to see Alastair Campbell on your show tonight, and wonderful to see the interaction with Michael and Diane (I am fans of them also, particularly Michael’s always cogent analysis of political events, a great loss to parliament and Diane’s humanity and decency, a great asset to parliament). Did I however, hear correctly? In his film did Alastair Campbell say something like we need our politics to be more “enervating”? Unless I misheard him, or he has misunderstood the definition of the word enervating, is that not an odd thing for him to say?
Having come to the end of my comment I am already sorry I criticised you, however slightly. It really is out of affection and because I do not want people to grow tired of the programme and for it to be taken off the air. Generally thank you, and Diane and Michael for a very enjoyable show that I wait up to watch.
Sheridan
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Andrew,
I think that Brown has a superb sense of humour. I have just watched the Number 10 video where he ends the visit to Kent by saying that I am sorry I can't spend more time here but if you write to me with any more questions I will answer them. I mean his sense of irony, perfect.
However, I do have a problem with Brown when he is asked a difficult question and it is this. He favoured response on difficult questions is to say I'm sorry, I don't have an answer to that one and I will write to you. Or, alternatively, I'm sorry I don't have an answer come and see me and we will chat about it. The probelm is that we the public never get the answer. The number of soldiers in Afghanistan, why 9, 128 or something close will come back, even if we had a larger number but some have been killed and some severely injured. However, when asked about helicopters, well I can't tell you the answer to that I've been advised that it would threaten national security, give comfort to the enemy, or we don't really know because there is a pool of helicopters, you know just like you have pool cars with your firm, well we thought it such a good idea we have pool helicopters. No I can't tell you how many but just look at those pictures of General Dannat, flying around in an American helicopter, yes I know he's advising the conservatives, well he never did know what he wanted, four options and I didn't take the one he wanted me to.
I now have a whole new set of generals and officers and they know what they need, and they have everything they need to, well there is no winning, this is about keeping our streets safe, keeping terror off our streets, oh we've retreated you say, well no we haven't we just want the Afghan army to take over our role, yes I know we have been in Afghanistan since 2001 but we had a little distraction called Iraq, and I had to find the money for that, I can't save the global economy, Copenhagen you ask, well I can't do everything at once, I'm much too busy drafting letters, oh no deaths this week, what can I say, I am glad to report to parliament that there have actually been no deaths this week, so let's have a planted question shall we, Glasgow, yes wonderful City we won a bye-election, well we can win something, Glasgow Celtic and those shocking events when they sang rebel songs through the minutes silkence, trust you always finding fault with me, give me a break I'm a bit shy, don't you know.
Well thank you and I hope that you write to me with any issues, dementia and elderly parents dying under chemical coshs well I feel your pain, I have been listening, I won't forget, serve a full term, of course I'm backing Britain, the pound in your pocket, everything is under review, new government, new dawn, we're on our way to victory, Iraq what about it, time to move on will you, look Karzai is doing his best, I can't help it if Obama can't make his mind up, I'm just waiting for him to tell me what to do, there's no blood on my hands, I've killed nobody, well I know neither did Hitler actually kill anybody, but that's another story. Good night Andrew, or is nitey nite.
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Andrew,
too late for most of the morning papers but it looks like Blair will not be giving evidence to the Chilcott inquiry until after Christmas.
In the meantime Chilcot has not yet said whether Prime Minister Gordon Brown would be among those called to testify. Now can I help him make his mind up. When a country goes to war it has to have a lot of money, an awful lot of money as wars and equipment are expensive.
So some of think that the war was 'planned' from at least a year earlier, at which time are we really to believe that there were absolutely no conversations between Blair and Brown to say I think we will be in Iraq in about a years time, so get the budget in place.
We all know of Browns ability to go missing when the going gets tough, its because of his shyness you see, but I think that Brown has a case to answer, if he didn't know what Blair and Bush were planning then he is even worse than I ever contemplated. It is no wonder that Obama is taking his time to reinforce his soldiers in Afghanistan. He knows that Brown will find some way of saying that America has met its committments but others haven't so Britain is not sending any more soldiers.
Brown has history, he lets people down, he is a flawed character and I think that politicians around the world well know how he always says its him when things go well but when it goes belly-up! You won't see Brown for dust, we'll soon find that miraculously the affie army and police are suddenly able to take things over and run it themselves. You can forget Terry Taleban, they've all joined up. We are on the wagon train and we won't know where we are going until we get there, only where we get to might not be where we thought we were going.
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77 Catch 22
"We all know of Browns ability to go missing when the going gets tough, its because of his shyness you see, but I think that Brown has a case to answer, if he didn't know what Blair and Bush were planning then he is even worse than I ever contemplated. It is no wonder that Obama is taking his time to reinforce his soldiers in Afghanistan. He knows that Brown will find some way of saying that America has met its committments but others haven't so Britain is not sending any more soldiers."
You should desist from conspiracy theories.You are simply whistling in the wind.
Your template should be political institutions and how they work within the history and traditions of British political life.A belief in conspiracies confirms a sense of powerlessness and alienation,which is a place you don`t want to be.
Personality in politics operates at the intersection of values and political structures.Conspiracies are rare,when they occur they are usually discovered.
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Good Morning Andrew,
if Brown talks more slowly or deepens his voice any more because he thinks that by doing so he sounds ever more sincere then please stop the record.
When he was chancellor, which he still thinks he is, he was often accused at the despatch box of just gabbling out lists, and statistics, so his tutors have said just slow down when announcing anything serious, and don't use the video with that smile of yours, use the radio, control the photo images as much as possible, authorised pictures only.
I'm sorry, but he even used the 'I feel the pain' again, he must realise by now that we don't have to be told something. It loses its meaning, its actually pathetic, we know our soldiers are brave, that they are heroes, that they are the best, the most professional, please it is an insult to the brave soldiers of other nations, the Italians had a state funeral for their dead soldiers, the French soldiers, the German soldiers, all would seem to get a better send off than ours. The trouble is that we can't afford to close down for the day, we can't afford senior ministers to attend funerals, they would not get anything done.
As for Brown, what's he going to do at Copenhagen, raise the issue of the occupation of Afghanistan, the global economic crisis, the coming general election. Or what will be his theme, I have brought security to the streets of Britain, the whole strategy is mine, mine, mine, mine, we must all pull together.
The trouble is listen to the Today programme. If we need to send soldiers to Afghanistan, what are they going for, to train the Afghans or to get the Taleban, or to save more of our soldiers from death, or what? Brwon says that there are certain contingencies, or tests, before he sends any more of our soldiers. Quisling Karzai, end corruption etc...but if the soldiers are needed then they are needed, it should not matter what anybody else does, he should show real leadership and say if the generals want 500 more men, then they will have them. If the generals are so good, as we are told, then they must know already what they want them to do. It surely cannot be like the Somme in WWI, where it seems the generals were given hundreds of thousands of fresh soldiers and so they thought better use them, attack, oh, they've all been killed, well better use plan B, keep them in the trenches, oh they get talking about revolution, about what is this pathetic war, get them busy again, right attack, that's what we can do, another push, one final effort. Sorry Brown the current generals and officers will be there in the future writing their memoirs, and you know what they are going to say don't you.
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72#
Woodward was saying that the civil serpents that got bonuses go to the front line.
Yeah right. Which shower did he think we came down in? They may go to Afghan for short periods, but they do not get any closer to the front line than Kandahar or at worst Bastion, which is quite a way from where the action is. For Alan Johnson to say that they got it for "difficult and dangerous work" is also disingenious... all the difficult and dangerous stuff is either done by those still in uniform or outsourced to BAe.
And its not only those who may have had trips to Afghan, there is no shortage of staff back in the UK who have had bonuses, particularly in Supply and Distribution and in some of the IPT's. It can be argued that in lieu of a half decent salary, these bonuses are more like top up payments. And we didnt believe that was good enough justification when the bankers used it either, so why the civil serpents think we'll swallow it this time is beyond me.
Civil service pay, except at B1/B2 level and above or when they are part of a body that sets its own salary levels like the one that looks for council chief execs is pretty poor, in fairness. But, given the standard of worker that they get, its hardly surprising. Pay peanuts and get decision avoiding monkeys, although their pensions tend to make up for it. Half of them couldnt get arrested in the commercial sector and working with them is one of the most brain sapping experiences it has ever been my displeasure to have.
Put simply, a vast majority of those in the MoD are doing work that was done better, safer and arguably cheaper by people in uniform in the mid 1990's before both Labour and tory governments decided to civilianise vast swathes of the services. And, the standard has slowly but surely been on a downward trajectory ever since.
I personally was more affronted by the bonuses given to the FSA, given the annus horribilis they have had, but there you go. Joe Public and his memory of a goldfish doesnt seem too bothered.
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Is there no comment on the Glasgow debacle ?
The SNP kicked into touch and a Labour replacement for the disgraced previous incumbent Martin.
Turkeys and Christmas come to mind.
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81 Not a debacle. A crime scene as the police have been called in for 3 cases where voters tried to vote in the Glasgow by election but their names had already been scored off the electoral roll as a postal vote had been made in their name.
I reckon the postal votes will cease to exist this weekend. And some people think that Karzai is corrupt!
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Good morning each & Andrew.
Well I am scunnered. That the thought that there will be another election soonish in the new year should keep so many away from the ballot box. At least, I hope that is what happened.
With but a 33% turnout this is hardly a victory for Democracy, nothing new there.
Should this create more talk of political reform? Will this increase or instigate comment on the fact that there is to be no mention of reform in Brenda's speech?
I do wonder who is cosiest with the status-quo, politicians or the people. Are the populace ever encouraged to get out and vote?
BTW
Yesterday was Campbell day. With the wife in the afternoon and he in the evening. Moreover AC came with but one thing to say and was given three clear shots at it. "I blame the messenger."
Well done you, Miguel for bearding him.
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Andrew,
I think that Brown is now in very serious trouble over America. I think you will find that when Obama returns to America on 19th November he will raise issues that could alter the dynamic of both how many additional troops are sent to Afghanistan and what the timeline would be for their presence in the war zone, according to the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss Obama's thinking.
Brown has failed again, just like he would be better off not going to Copenhagen. I have referred in earlier posts to a cable sent in September 2008 which indicated that the game was up in Afghanistan. All lives lost since then have been for absolutely nothing, complete waste.
Brown says he knows his history, well I think his memory is failing him, he is being very selective, we might as well surround the towns and villages, and anybody outside is the enemy and fair game. I know that Brown and his advisers read your blog Andrew, only trouble is they are always playing catch-up. This isn't like Vietnam, it is turning into another Boer War, that was a disaster, and eventually led to WWI.
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Andrew said "calm down and concentrate on what's important, like the recession, unemployment and our predicament in Afghanistan." And IMMIGRATION, LOSS OF OUR SOVEREIGNTY, THE CONTINUING THEFT AND FRAUD IN THE COMMONS & LORDS, TRANSPORTATION, FRAUDULENT BANKS, THE ROLE OF COMMON PURPOSE IN SOCIETY AND IN PARTICULAR THE MEDIA etc. etc.
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xt:
Little bit more lively about Glasgow on NR.....
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#85 Moredolesschat
I am all for that. Let us hear more about etc.
Electoral timidity coefficient.
Just why was there no more than plaintive wails from the few within Nul to the fact that electoral reform, like 'jam', is something for tomorrow?
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Congratulations to Willie Carson and his Party on their election victory somewhere in Scotland.
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Andrew,
it is brilliant that many politicians are now being inetrviewed and asked questions. There response now is to say 'with all due respect...' which usually means that they are not being respectful at all. The other one is where they never let you finish the question. The other one is where they start by including in their answer a contentious comment which requires to be refuted before they complete their answer, they use emotional terms, or argue on a false premse, they are then inetrrupted and we never actually get the answer to the question.
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83. At 09:38am on 13 Nov 2009, Oudeis
BTW
Yesterday was Campbell day. With the wife in the afternoon and he in the evening. Moreover AC came with but one thing to say and was given three clear shots at it. "I blame the messenger."
Well done you, Miguel for bearding him.
Spot on. The true (or two) faces of New Labour.
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...and again I hear, "resounding victory". This time on the Beeb.
So much for democracy.
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Fubar 86
Indeed my friend but now its closed just for a change and no new blog to replace it.
Thought Saga was a bit unfair on Croftie re the benefit vote. Its the same as voting for jobs mate. In a high benefit dependency area that is their main income and the Tories have made it clear that they are going to hammer benefits. Labour are going to do much the same but havnt shouted it from the rooftops. So it is not surprising that the Devil they know got in.
What I am surprised at after all the huff and puff and rhetoric about the SNP and the Leadership debating rights of Alex Salmond on this and other blogs, the SNP got hammered.
Will this quieten Bonnie Prince Alex?
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Wow! British Railways returns!
From midnight tonight the East coast line the entire length of the country goes back into nationalisation.
We are now going to spend 5m upgrading it but instead of running it as a public service the govt are proposing to put it up for grabs again.
What makes them think if one experienced operator couldnt make it pay enough then why should any other?
Rail travel under the current system is a financial lottery only beaten bu computer literate youngsters. A friend wanted a single from St Ives to Birmingham and it came out at two hundred quid! His grandson got it down to sixty quid by surfing. Ok he had to change trains three times but what a saving. Its almost like pre 1948 with the regions being run seperately.
Nationalise the rest I say and introduce and encourage cheap rail travel to reduce car use.
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92. xTunbridge
"What I am surprised at after all the huff and puff and rhetoric about the SNP and the Leadership debating rights of Alex Salmond on this and other blogs, the SNP got hammered."
No shame in losing to Willie Carson.
EH's porridge must have tasted bitter this morning.
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#93 xT
Hear hear!!
Every penny of every pound is now tax. One way or another and all that is done is to find new ways to get the last penny out of us. Only nowadays each penny must go through the hands of those that fund the big partys in their 'sruggle' for the popular vote. Even a fraction of a fraction gives a 'resounding victory'.
BTW
I was cursing the lack of a key on the keyboard that could represent my desk-thumping. Then it came to me.
£ousey £abour, grrrr £!
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Poor old Alastair - trying to play 'fluffy cat' and independent commentator as he spits venom at Diane Abbott and pledges himself as being more committed to Labour than her as a sitting MP. Then he starts his own attempt at consipracy theory when he turns on The Sun because they aren't adopting the party line.
It did tend to suggest that his media skills ere more related to his bullying than his ability devise a coherent strategy.
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xTunbridge 92
Well it would help if I knew what had been said, but I cannot access even the comments on Robinsons site. All I keep getting is, would you like to do survey for 5 minutes. I mean, I got cut off in mid conversation with derek.
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Andrew,
whilst the PM is concentrating all of his efforts on the deteriorating Afghan situation, or climate change, or the global economic crisis, may I point out that according to the Boston Globe :
'Swine flu has killed at least 540 children nationally since emerging in the United States in April, according to federal estimates released yesterday that provide compelling evidence that the novel virus is making more young people seriously ill than typical seasonal strains'.
Now I think that there ought to be a serious debate as to whether or not it would be prudent to prepare to stop children mixing by closing all schools. There must be a full exposure as to what the contingency arrangements are to be in the event of a rise in the death rates caused by infections of Swine Flu. If there are to be contingency arrangements then the public must be prepared, because of the effect on working mothers, and also should we really be considering postponing all major sporting events until such time as the crisis is over.
America would seem to be losing more of their children to Swine Flu than their soldiers to the Afghan freedom fighters.
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97 Susan, I can only access this blog andd Gavin Hewitt's Europe. At the other blogs on the BBC site I get a blank page. Technical gremlins again or someting more sinister....
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Andrew:
It is time to take a breather and, regain our composure....
=Dennis Junior=
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excellentcatblogger 99
I do not know, however I have a friend, who tells me he can access it with no problems at all. He, however is not a member of the BBC blogs. All I get is a blank page and this survey thing. It was like this at 6 this morning, I was only able to get through to Robinsons blog via Sagamixs name in the end. Then I lost the blog and cannot get in, even via someones name. Its really strange.
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101 SC
2:36pm is the last open comment I see when I popped there but a moment ago. All seems as it should be.
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Oudies 102
Seriously, or are you teasing me.
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sc @ 101
I can get in no problem, Susan
perhaps you've been banned?
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RFA Wave Knight (A389) is a Wave Knight-class fast fleet tanker of the Royal Fleet Auxiliary (RFA) of the United Kingdom, and was at the scene of the Chandlers being seized by Somali pirates. The vessel is part merchant navy and part Royal navy. The MOD ordered the vessel not to fire in case the hostages were injured.
RFA Wave Knight is equipped with two 30 mm cannon and four 7.62 mm machine guns, whilst the pirates had AK 47 machine guns. Read the letters at the end of the article, to see what people hink of this pathetic display.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article6915658.ece
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Croftie
Do the survey it seems to clear the hold up.
It does give you a chance to be critical if you so choose.
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#103 Susan-Croft
T'sk, t'sk, t'sk. Kidding? Moi?
No.
#
# 36. At 3:03pm on 13 Nov 2009, le roi des voleurs wrote:
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# 37. At 3:06pm on 13 Nov 2009, anthony piepe wrote:
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# 38. At 3:06pm on 13 Nov 2009, johnharris66 wrote:
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Sagamix 104
Saga if you are still on Robinsons blog, then I doubt if I have been banned. You can always keep hoping. Besides excellent would never be banned now would he?
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xTunbridge 106
I cant because its not coming up now.
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Oudies 107
Ok sorry, thanks Oudies, I did not mean it in a bad way, you know, teasing me. Well I dont know, talk about the latest computers, I suppose if I had some old piece of scrap it would be working for me.
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101 Susan-Croft
I have to confess I am more put out at not being able to access quality blogs such as Phil McNulty's football blog. Not only does he read the entries that are posted, he also replies to them and often directs the discussion within the thread, to provoke more debate. A class act.
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#110 Susan-Croft
There was never any such thought in my head.
I think I can understand your chagrin and you are perfectly entitled to be less than happy while those hard working yet unsung toilers at the Beeb do what they can to further democracy and the free exchange of views. :)
Should Nick's and my paths cross while out dog-walking tomorrow I shall make all of this plain to him personally.
[I am kidding with the last bit, the less he knows the better]
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susan @ 108
"You can always keep hoping"
why would I want to ban my absolute favourite blogger?
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excellentcatblogger 111
True enough, I just wanted to see how the conversation ended.
Going back to your link on Somali pirates, I am in agreement with the main comments. What use are these anti piracy measures, if they are not allowed to fire on them. Until an example is made they will continue to get away with this sort of thing. They only have fire on them once, and it will put an end to it. Why on earth have we become so afraid of stepping out of line, to do the right thing.
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114 Susan-Croft
The one thing i have never understood about NATO is that in peace time they orchestrate huge exercises with all members using their Armies, Navies and air Forces acting in an integrated manner. I remember about 15 years ago in Edinburgh on a Saturday down at Leith Docks the NATO navy was berthed after a joint exercise, and the public were allowed to board most of the ships. It was all very impressive and reassuring that all those navies could work together and a vindication of what NATO stood for.
Yet what is happening now off the coast of Somalia? Not one NATO, but separate operations by the individual navies. What was the point of all that training? What they should be doing is escorting convoys of ships to and from the Suez canal/Gulf and not give the pirates a chance. Some proactive activity would not hurt either.
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xTunbridge 92
Going back to your SNP comment. The reason that the SNP got hammered is for the reasons I was trying to tell the Hermit. The SNP with their brand of nationalism is starting to frighten people. The sensible Scots know very well they cannot afford to go Independent, especially now the Scottish banking system is in meltdown. They also have a massive public sector and the money would have to be found from somewhere. They also know the oil industry is in decline which would be the biggest source of income if it came into Scottish hands and its a big if. However I doubt that many big oil companies would stay under an Independent Scotland. The SNP is not very popular with business people anyway. Salmond has totally ignored the problems of RBS and HBOS as though they never happened. Of course this is because of how much it has cost to bail out these banks, an Independent Scotland could never have afforded it, even with borrowing facilities.
If Salmond continues with this Independence rhetoric he will find himself losing more votes. It may not be reflected on the blogs but there are still an awful lot of Unionists in Scotland. Most Scottish people when surveyed do not think having their own Parliament has made any difference to their lives. Independence I think is a step too far for them.
Politically, I have no idea which way Scotland is going to be honest. They usually do not vote Conservative, however they are not that keen on the SNP, Labour or the Lib/Dems just now. I would love to know what the people who did not vote in this bi-election are thinking.
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Andrew,
when will the voice of reason be heard. Any decent army officer will tell you 'never reinforce defeat'.
As for the grotesque suggestion that to leave now would be saying that it meant that the lives of dead soldiers had somehow been wasted is just that, grotesque. It was because of that stupid sort of idea that millions of lives were lost in the Great war.
Brown must not be allowed to make committments which will tie our forces down for years to come. he does have to face an elkection. As for the conservatives they are caught between a rock and a hard place. If they don't support Brown then they will be accused of being disloyal, and defeatist. It is up to people like me to say that the whole effort in Afghanistan is wasted.
The powers that be want to have a civilian surge, but the civilians will need protecting, namely not by soldiers but employees of the private security firms now run by the retired generals and senior officers. they know how to make money out of an occupation.
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Harriet is officially "parliamentarian of the year" ... guess you all heard about that?
quite an accolade
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106 Xtun
If like me you grab a computer wherever you are - the survey comes up every time, which drives you mad.
However it does let you in eventually.
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@ 116
"If Salmond continues with this Independence rhetoric he will find himself losing more votes"
I think you'll find that he will, Susan ... continue with his Independence rhetoric ... Scottish Independence is, after all, rather the raison d'etre of the SNP
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# 118
It's a not so subtle slap for the fact that without Lord Minky. Gordon wouldn't have a Government any more sagamix.
His ego will lap it up, but Gordon will wonder how he can remain as PM when someone else is running the show, and the Tories have no fear of Lord Minky.
When they called him an 'alpha male' did you really think they meant it ?
Lord Minky thinks they did.
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116. Susan-Croft
SC, if I didn't know better I'd say you were a unionist cabal amateur propagandist.
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118. sagamix
Yes, and Ken Clarke was 'Newcomer of the Year'.
Go figure.
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Sagamix 120
I agree, but a much smarter man than Salmond, would play the long game. All visions take time, but Salmond has such a big ego that he would rather see Scotland destitute to achieve his goal than not.
A man who loves his Country would put the Country first, however having power is far more important to Salmond. Power for him I mean not the people. I also do not like some of the freedom restrictions the SNP are starting to put on the people of Scotland. It shows how strongly I feel about this issue, when I would put my hopes for an English Parliament on hold and I would rather see Labour win this bi-election than the SNP.
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Andrew,
may I suggest that others read obtainable copies of Hansard through the internet, it is wondrous facility. For example this extract from May 1870:-
'We had made no entangling alliance; but the knowledge that we desired to see the existing ruler of Cabul strong, peaceful, and prosperous, together with the frank interchange of views that had taken place between the Foreign Offices at St. Petersburg and London, had produced a most excellent effect from the mouth of the Khyber far away to the cities of Central Asia. The political troubles of Afghanistan, however, arose as suddenly as the winter storms among her mountains, and many accidents might upset the fair promise of the present. Yet the impartial historian would, he was sure, come to the conclusion that the late Viceroy acted wisely both at the beginning and at the end of his rule, and that both the late and the present Government were right in giving him their entire support'.
Yes Andrew a strong peaceful and prosperous ruler, how times just don't seem to change do they?
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bg @ 123
er, thought you were joking!
but would appear not
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suze @ 124
so who do you dislike the most?
- Alex Salmond, or
- Gordon Brown, or
- the Parliamentarian of the Year
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Grrrrrrrrrr Nicks blog closed; open 13.06 to 17.33.
Saga
Please tell me more about HHs honour ?
Who chose her?
On what basis?, expenses? , Popularity?, faimindedness? misuse of statisitics?,misandry?
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127 Saga
How can croftie pick a dislike from 3 equally dislikeable characters?
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Croftie . Tell me more about threats to Scottish freedoms as Alex Salmond was waxing lyrical in Oct 2005 about the danger posed to Scottish freedoms from Westminster, Id cards, misuse of Terror Laws etc, so whats the story?
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xtun @ 128
apparently it was for 2 main things:
- doing very well when standing in at PMQs (considered to have "bested" William Hague) and
- piloting some tricky equality legislation through the House
that's what it says!
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This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
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Andrew,
I did tell people before that Salmond made a fundamental error. He did not attend the Remembrance Day commemmorations at the Cenotaph, shame on him.
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gp @ 133
what are you on about, Gomer?
I'm asking which of 3 characters (none of whom is "Lord Minky" and all of whom I know she dislikes) she dislikes the MOST?
what's up with that?
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Saga 131
I am trying to ask you who said and where in response to your 131 but for some unknown reason my post has been referred !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
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xt @ 137
so's Gomer's ... and I'd just replied to it!
who and where? well I googled it and just read the story
Spectator, I think
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138 Saga
Read it now. Hmmm Bit like Matthew Hopkins getting old woman eliminator of the year award way back when.
Yes all they say is correct but how much of what she stands for and espouses is admirable is another thing altogether.
A technical merit award rather than content I feel.
Incidentally whilst searching it brought up past winners; Blair and Cable came up! Chalk and cheese methinks.
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Parliamentarian of the year?
A rather dubious accolade I would say considering what has gone on recently.
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she WAS pretty good at PMQs though, as I recall
good sense of humour; she can laugh at herself, for example
Gordon doesn't have that ... or if he does it doesn't really come over
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It amazes me saga that even though the current crop of people in Parliament have proven that they have questionable judgement particularly over the expenses scandal you still set such great store by their judgement.
Before you say they were not all involved they were all involved in creating a system as easy to abuse as possible.
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I liked the quote that Lord Mandelson said that he and Boris would be doing “everything we can to undermine David Cameron”
It is the pantomine season and they make a good pair of ugly sisters to Harriet's Cinders
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#134 Catch22
What a cheap shot:
Remembrance Day commemorations take place as two more soldiers die in Helmand.
First Minister Alex Salmond has led the Remembrance Sunday commemorations which took place as two more soldiers were killed in Afghanistan.
The First Minister said: "Remembrance Sunday is a time for us all to reflect and remember the enormity of sacrifice made by Scottish servicemen and women, past and present”.
Time for an apology, but I doubt one will be given.
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sa @ 142
well sure but the system was created back in the Eighties so I don't think there's anything particularly heinous about this parliament
besides, it's nice to see Harriet getting a bit of recognition for her efforts ... she certainly takes her fair share of stick, let's face it
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RE :145
saga it is irrelevant when the system was created they all used it.
As to Harman getting stick if she doesnt like it the old addage, "if you cant stand the heat get out of the kitchen," seems appropriate.
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145 Saga
Ah is that why S&M hasnt featured as a thou shalt not ?
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Ref 52 Meninwhitecoats
Hey MIWC,I am still alive and well and no yet metamorphosed. I have been a bit quiet recently as I have been busy packing as I had to sell my house . The ironical thing now is I cannot claim jobseekers allowance as my circumstances have changed. There people without fathers will get their comeupance come Industial Tribunal day??!!
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How can the MOD justify the recent bonus payments to thousands of staff whilst so much injustice to our service personnel is apparent.
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#144
there will be no apology from me. The whole thing about Remembrance Sunday at the cenotaph is that it is about Britian. As soon as the First Minister decides that it is not then it becomes a nationalist day of remembrance with England and Scotland separate. It wasn't the letter which angered me, it was Brown not bowing. The Queen bowes, Cameron bowes, Clegg bowes, but Brown, I don't think that he bows to any man. If you call it a cheap shot, then so be it, but his actions spoke far louder than my words.
I have always thought that Germany did not enter the Great War against Britain, it was and is England. Just like it was the English navy, it was never the British navy, and it is crass to think otherwise.
We are seeing the end of what was known as Britain, or the United Kingdom whatever. Look at and listen to the scenes at Celtic Park during the minutes 'silence' which was held before a match they played, it was appalling, a moment of shame. I detest it when Brown refers to my country, without naming it. I think he means Scotland, not Britain. There is something duplicitous about him.
I know that I can be accused of many things, that I think that some of our soldiers have 'let the side down' but so have the officers and the generals. But most of all the politicians, who give the orders. I detest them for what they have done, it is not me who should apologise, it is the pathetic little men and women who now pretend to run this country, this England, they have sought and got their revenge, they have done this.
All I will say is that I am approaching the end of my life, I have tried to play by the rules, sometimes my dark side has got the better of me, but I know that I have this dark side, my black dog, but another favourite film of mine encapsulates my feeling for some of these politicians 'Fame is the Spur'. Another one, 'The Cruel Sea' with the wonderful words spoken by Jack Hawkins 'its the war, the bloody war'. I will never see the Afghans, the Iraqis, the Iranians, the Israelis, the rest of the people who populate this earth as being nothing other than human beings, no nations, no borders, no difference, it is view from the Moon which shaped my life, not little Brown, with his 'British jobs for British people' or Woolas with his, and I paraphrase, we are in Afghanistan to keep the Afghan refugees out.
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148 Exxon2
Dont mean to pry but anxious you are getting the little us non MPs are entitled to.
Do you mean income based JSA ? And the Capital from the sale of your house rules you out?
Coz Contribution based JSA is not means tested.
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Proper journalism takes a bit of effort and proper political commentating should be like that.
Does anybody understand the way in which various BBC blogs work, in terms of the timing of when a particular blog gets closed down?
Is there a rota system, or a "ration", so that after a certain number of responses and some rather silly he-said, she-said stuff, the mods are allowed to go home?
When I can catch it, I enjoy the Daily Politics. Fairly robust stuff. Bit of a giggle from time to time. A bit like life.
But Nick Robinson is supposed to be the BBC's political editor, so why do his blogs get shut off so rapidly?
Is it cost-cutting, or some other factor?
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I see John Bercow is deadly serious about new regulations for expense by spending 140Kpounds on redecorating his flat??!!
He taking the p--
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Ref 151XTunbridge.
No problems XT. My local JC has informed me that the capital from my house sale debars me from receiving any further JSA.
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154 Exxon2
Sorry to continue this but you have had your 26 weeks CB JSA ?
If this is so you are now in the position that all those on Incapacity Benefit will find themselves if Cameron has his way and moves them to JSA.
I am going to check on the treatment of capital from the sale of a house because I have in the back of my head that in certain circs it is disregarded. Unfortunately I cant remember which so dont get your hopes up.
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Ref 155 XTunbridge
XT, thanks for your advice and help and no,I have not been claiming JSA for 26 weeks yet.
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Ref my 153, it should read 40thousand pounds not 140K for redecorating John Bercows Flat. Sorry guys.
This comes as no surprise to me and I don't trust Bercow anymore than the any other MP.
Bercow is on record (Hansard Answers) with NUMEROUS questions on the legality of the Chad/Cameroon Pipeline (CCP),ditto for at least 3 Shadow Secrearies for the DFID.
David Cameron is ALSO aware the CCP is STILL operating in a legal void, (world bank reports confirm this)
The CCP is an environmental and saety timebomb,hence, I cannot take all this environmental safety talk by world leaders seriously.
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fairly @ 152
well I notice that you just "got one in" ... the very last one, in fact ... before the wire came down
result!
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#152
In some ways all the blogs are nothing other than a source of information. For example, Joe Glenton, gone quiet that one since his arrest on 11/11? For example the media are not really reporting on the death at the hands of British soldiers Mr Mousa. The reports come out today about investigations into the activities of some of our brave heroic soldiers in Iraq. The letter and telephone converstaion goes into making Brown the one who people now feel sorry for.
I contend that there has been a definite change of policy about the treatment of the injured. There is a new critical appraisal being made as to the viability of keeping some of these men alive, will they cost too much to treat, what will they look like on parade.
All I hope is that all the money raised through charity have their books thoroughly investigated and monitored. I want to know the sums raised, how much is being accounted for in expenses, and how much is being spent and who it is being spent on. I'm sorry but too often in the past we have been told after the horse has bolted that millions have been raised, but it costs an awful lot to raise money these days.
Is it not surprising that we used to hear Dannat almost daily telling us 'stuff' but Richards, well he is getting on with his job. My problem with all this is the ones who remain silent. If we are told that Brown was given four options by Dannat and that Brown chose the one that Dannat did not want him to then Dannat should have said so, at the time.
As for the five hundred extra soldiers, then Richards should tell us does he really need them, because if he does then they should go now, if he doesn't need them then Brown should tell us, with Richards beside him, that we won't be sending any more soldiers. Not because of the lack of committment by other forces, but just because they are not needed.
Are the five hundred needed or not. Should we really be waiting for Obama. If Obama says no then Brown will not send the soldiers but then what did the generals not need them for in the first place. If Obama says yes to sending his extra forces and then Brown says yes, then Brown too has been dithering, using his tests to extricate himself from actually making the tough decisions, like in the case of the Euro.
As for the Ministry of Defence has the government realised that 'Boob' (H)Ainsworth is just totally unfit for the job and been sidelined by William (Bill) Rammell, just like 'Buff'Hoon has disapeared off the face of the planet. One minute you're there the next, like Trotsky, you're not in the pictures anymore.
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Good Morning Andrew,
now that we have got Armistice day out of the way, now that we have justified the occupation of Afghanistan on the basis that it is to keep terror off our streets, that we should live in fear of Afghanistan and Pakistan because they are the terrorists, and Pakistan does of course have nuclear weapons. Well now that Brown has upset over a million people who live in Britain to be afraid, because now many people will think that any Pakistani/Afghani is a terrorist, that we are killing women and children, who might just be relatives of these British people, because Brown tells us that it is not Moslems we should fear, or Jihadists, no because Brown has told me, I've heard him on the media, that it is Afghans and Pakistanis who are the problem. In the meantime I do not need to feel any fear whatsoever from Saudi Arabians because although the majority of the terrorists who flew planes in the World Trade Center were from Saudi Arabia, and Bin Laden and his family are Sauidis, they're alright. I mean people seem to have forgotten that during the airline shutdown after 9/11 the first ones out of America afterwards was a plane with the Bin Laden family on it!
I mean Saudi Arabia is the good guy, they are not part of the dictatorship of oil which Brown was going to break. No, they don't have to have court cases because Blair dropped bribery and corruption against a certain company because of the threat to national security. Yes, there no problem with Saudi Arabia. It is the Afdghan and Pakistan which is the problem.
Oh, and I still haven't seriously heard from 'Andy' Woolass about the contentiuous comment which he is meant to have made about keeping our soldiers in Afghanistan to keep any asylum seekers out. You don't need protection and you are not under threat because we are there to protect you, just like the Iraqi translators who have been let down so badly.
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152. At 11:45pm on 13 Nov 2009, fairlyopenmind
Is there a rota system, or a "ration", so that after a certain number of responses and some rather silly he-said, she-said stuff, the mods are allowed to go home?
Well, mixing metaphors tastelessly, there is an appetite for rationing in our quango sector (if a bit unidirectional)
There's an irony in that I was keen to reply to a post from only yesterday...
42. At 3:20pm on 13 Nov 2009, goldCaesar wrote:
If the tories win the next election we may be paying for the privelege of posting on these boards, or they may not be here at all
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/nickrobinson/2009/11/gordon_brown_an.html#P88431251
But, indeed, the window of privilege (last @ 5.33pm, coincidentally) was again brief, for some reason. Maybe those they enjoy commentary from get back earlier from 'work', whereas those of a more 'challenging nature' only find time to engage in publicly hosted debate later on or at weekends?
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152. At 11:45pm on 13 Nov 2009, fairlyopenmind
Proper journalism takes a bit of effort and proper political commentating should be like that.
Amen.
Does anybody understand the way in which various BBC blogs work, in terms of the timing of when a particular blog gets closed down?
If they do, I suspect it is in a cabinet marked 'Beware The Leopard' - http://www.planetclaire.org/quotes/hitchhikers/ - along with The Baleful Report http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/story.asp?storycode=43053
But Nick Robinson is supposed to be the BBC's political editor, so why do his blogs get shut off so rapidly? Is it cost-cutting, or some other factor?
Looking at recently-published executive remuneration packages, cost seems unlikely, hence I'd go for the latter. Wonder what it might be (as may others, for a long while: see above).
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Andrew,
I think that despite the way in which labour is regarded I think that somehow or other there will be a hung parliament after the general election.
So, we must be informed that if Brown does continue as PM then we must be told that he will in fact serve a full term, or in the event of him resigning for any reason, that the new PM will have a general election within six months of taking over. The way in which Brown was able to succesfully mount his coup was totally unacceptable and must never be allowed to happen again.
Furthermore, the conservatives must inform us that in the event of them not gaining an overall majority at the election that they will not dump Cameron. They would be foolish to change their leader because it would be a major shock if they were to gain an overall majority, impossible.
The problem is that if labour does have a majority, and with the implosion of the SNP, and the bribery of the electorate in the labour heartlands, then they are likely to have a tiny majority. It will be the liberals who will hold the balance of power.
So, the chickens will come home to roost very soon after the election, public spending cuts, rises in national insurance, rises in income tax, unemployment still rising, major problems in the summer with school leavers, bankruptcies rising, home repossessions out of control, strikes rising, the occupation of Afghanistan, the Iraq inquiry, the reviews which have held off serious decisions until after the election, all this will come home to roost.
The conservatives must hold their nerve, the trouble is that just as labour is not fit to govern, then neither are any of the other main political parties. I see trouble in the wind, it is the gathering storm.
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Does Network Rail take public safety seriously. I do not think they do,I think it is lip service only. Let me give you a good example.
I requested a Senior NR Safety Manager to be my prescribed person (PP)in my forthcoming IT and he refused to accept,saying I must take up such safety issue with my former employer.
The principal claim in my whistleblower action is for Health & Safety breaches,incidently ,the same contractor was responsible for the Hatfield disaster 9 years ago.
Put yourself in the NR Safety Managers shoes, would you wait 6 months for such matters to be released or accept the PP invitation.
I now have THREE (3) refusals for my PP,i.e. the HSE /Ben Bradshw/Network Rail.I really must change my aftershave.
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Ref 163 Catch22.a.k.a TAGGY.
Taggy,I agree with you mate but the Tories have,in my view, failed their duty of care to SHADOW this corrupt government and the bloggers at this site could give you a million examples of such failures but I am sure you would not expect me to give you any other example other than the
1.Chad/Cameroon Pipeline
2.PFI schools in Exeter.
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Ref 160 Catch22.
I don't agree with you Taggy that Saudi is NOT a problem. Uncle Sam will eventually do the same with Saudi as he did with Iran in the 1978/9. It suits Uncle Sam and a few others to leave Saudi alone for a wee while longer.
What happeened to SFO/BAE inquiry,did that get put to bed??!!
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#154 Exxon
Morning Exxon nice to see you are back.
It seems a ridiculous situation if you cannot claim JSA for that reason - definite anomoly in the system if it is true.
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Can any of my learned bloggers tell me what happened to the infamous Oil for Food Inquiry in Iraq.To my knowledge,it was shelved.
It's no surprise to learn my namesake were the biggest EMBARGO busters, who ya gonna call,Exxon.
Not only was the oil for food inquiry a boondoogle, the International Aid Package was/is a waste of time with most of the International Funds being diverted from the rightful owners,i.e. Iraq Public.
As yet, we have'nt heard about any similar scandals in Afghanistan but you can bet your life that Internaional Aid is being diverted into the wallets of the bad guys.
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156 Exxon 2
No joy on capital disregard but you should get Contribution based JSA for 26 weeks before means tested JSA kicks in.
If your local Job Centre disagrees refer them to the Job Centre Plus web site which says 182 days which equals 26 weeks. I wont do the URL link as I rarely get them right to the satisfaction of the Mods.
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#166
I don't think you quite undersatnd my style. When I say that there is not a problem I say it ironically. Is there no way in which I can hold peoples hand to say look here I a am being ironic, of course there's a problem with Saudi Arabia, trouble is that they are not pakistani or Afghani.Oh, and there are not over a million of them in Britain, they just seem to own everything!
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170 Catch 22
I am old enough to remember the furore the TV programme Death of a Princess caused when screened in 1980 on British TV.
The Saudis kicked up a tremendous fuss and trade and travel was disrupted.
What I didnt realize until I just checked it on the web was that this was the situation all over the world with it not being shown in cases because of the economic damage it could cause!!!!!!
Even an Egytian actress in it was blacklisted by the Egyptian TV, film and theatre
producers.
Its worth a Wiki look up .
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Catch 22 163
"The conservatives must hold their nerve, the trouble is that just as labour is not fit to govern, then neither are any of the other main political parties. I see trouble in the wind, it is the gathering storm."
Beware the ides of March!But why should the conservatives hold their nerve if they are unfit to govern? Surely it would be in all our interests if they joined the collective debacle you predict?
I am afraid the only gathering storm you are likely to encounter is the hot air you so readily bring forth.
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172
Nothing to add but ad hominem attacks?
How shallow and nasty you are.
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XT &MIWC
Thanks for your help and advice ref JSA,I will chase them up this week at my local JC.
Thanks guys,it is appreciated
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The best Labour can hope for is being part of a hung Parliament anthony, and even that may be too much, as only more bad news is on the horizon, and there's a limit to how much you can spin failure into success.
Though the Sun letter issue blew up in it's face, it still damaged Gordon, as sympathy is not a beneficial response to a PM, and he's had to exploit his own shortcomings, which has a long lasting negative effect. Labour had to deploy their prime 'spinners', Mandelson and Campbell, who had to resort to conspiracy theory, but they're an old music hall act now, and barely interesting, let alone plausible. They may be right, but in view of their own reputations, their accusations are a little rich.
Climate change, employment, the economy, immigration and Afghanistan, to name but a few, all loom between now and the election as issues that lie in wait to do Labour harm. I'd agree that the Tories barely engage with the electorate, but with so many problems ahead, they don't have to.
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I note with a wry smile that the Buncefield Blast was down to Health nd Safety breaches. Now there's a surprise. I said at the time of the blast it WAS an avoidable incident.
I hope the 45 victims who suffered injuries AND other people whom were affected sue the ass off the oil company,no names mentioned but it was the Sub total of the sum.??!!
I think these oil companies treat H&S issues with contempt
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The Tories have not yet caught the mood of the country - although I do think they will win it is almost by default.
The ABL vote should carry them through but without the good will that NuLab enjoyed when they came to power.
NuLab have not yet been demonised to the same extent as the last Tory adminstration, although their arrogance in government has distanced them from their core vote.
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I think the interesting thing about the next election is that Scotland seems no more likely to vote Tory than it did before. It seems the election in Scotland will therefore split between the SNP and Labour.
If the Tory's therefore win they will owe their office to the people England.
What will the Torys do for England then and what effect will that have on the Union?
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173. At 2:01pm on 14 Nov 2009, yellowbelly1959 wrote:
172
"Nothing to add but ad hominem attacks?
How shallow and nasty you are."
I take it that logic isn`t your strong point either.
175 Gomer
"I'd agree that the Tories barely engage with the electorate, but with so many problems ahead, they don't have to."
But who are you agreeing with? Catch 22s view is that they are unfit to govern, but we should vote for them anyway.Yellowbelly in leaping to his defence seems to concur with this twisted logic.
My own reservations concern their economic competence not their constitutional propriety.Now what is nasty about that?
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178 Superangry
"What will the Torys do for England then and what effect will that have on the Union?"
The electoral risk is being presented as an English party which will result in a break-up of the Union.
In this event their are two hostages:
(1)The Thatcherite legacy which left swathes of de-industrialization north of the border and has not been forgiven,especially the closure of the giant steelworks, I think at Craigavon, and the mines which fed it.
(2)This will interact with a conservative economic policy which believes in drastic expenditure cuts when the economy is emerging from recession and will revive an economic nationalism north of the border.
The increased pressure for Scots independence will require all of Mr.Cameron`s skill to manage, and could still be lost if his economic policies lead to a tide of Scottish anger.At present there is no majority for independence,this could change.
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RE :180
Anthony I agree the pressure for Scottish Independence will grow and the sooner the better as far as I am concerned.
I doubt though that any skill Cameron has will succeed in holding the Union together unless of course he increases the imbalance in the Barnett Formula and buys off Scotland with even more English taxes.
If so this will only fuel resentment in England I think and inevitably mean the end of the Union.
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Sagamix 127
Sorry I could not answer you last night I was out. I dislike all three, Labour, the SNP and Harriet Harman, equally to be honest. However you have to prioritise on which you think is the biggest threat to democracy. In Scotland I believe it is the SNP, therefore it is only right that for the Scottish people, I would be honest, and say I oppose them, and everything they stand for. In England I believe it is Labour therefore I oppose them on these grounds.
Harriet Harman I just dismiss as I cannot see where she fits into the picture at all. I doubt she will become leader of the Labour Party and if she does they can expect to become more unpopular than they are already. The difficulty she has is she alienates nearly half of the voters, women, I cannot speak for men, but the ones I know dislike her as well. She also represents the old, in the sense that most young people I know, find her out of touch, and rather dated. I suppose she is rather old to be thought of as a leader in waiting. Therefore I can only suggest that in your case love is blind.
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180 and 181
I agree that the status quo regarding Scotland is untenable. Scotland is essentially Old lLbour which the SNP has exploited to good effect by nicking their clothes. When Nu lab in Scotland ditches the new and embraces the Old, the question is whether the faithful return or not.
The difference now is the resentment building up in the south of England against the Scots subsidies. Cameron like any Tory leader is already under huge pressure between the European factions and he will find it hard to quell this with just the Union argument. When devolution was first mooted and then implemented, I lived in Scotland and the general feeling was scepticism and this was reinforced with the quality of some of the "debates".
But things improved and the Scottish parliament is something to be proud of, and the MSPs are generally of a far better quality compared to the MPs at Westminster. They also had an expenses scandal with second homes in Edinburgh (in some cases 3 and 4) and MSPs taking the money but not turning up. BUT and an important but, they dealt with it quickly and effectively. Westminster MPs saw this and did not act. The lobby journalists saw this and did not ask questions of Westminster MPs.
There are so few Tory MPs in Scotland which makes Scots feel disenfranchised when there is a Tory UK Government. Likewise a disconnect exists in England under a Labour government. The union has served its purpose and it is time to move on. With Defence matters the existing bases in Scotland could still be used by UK Armed Forces if the Scottish people willed it - a precedent exists where the Russian Black sea fleet is based in the Ukraine.
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superAngry 181
The funny thing is though super, it may very well be the English that will demand the end to the Union. Whilst in England the movement for the breakup of the Union is growing. The SNP are starting to lose ground and the arguments in Scotland. Since being in Government they have not honoured their promises to the Scottish people. Also the realisation of what Independence will mean has began to dawn on them. Can they afford to go Independent. The other issue is there are still an awful lot of Unionists in Scotland. We hear a lot from the SNP, because the Unionists are being silenced.
The Labour party were able to act as a form of opposition to the SNP in this bi-election in Glasgow, attacking the SNPs record in office. This will not be the same in a General Election where it will be between Labour and the Conservatives. It will therefore, be Labours record in office which will be looked at by the electorate. Therefore the result in this bi-election for Labour is basically irreverent with regard to a General Election. This area of Glasgow, is one that has remained faithful to Labour for years and is very benefit dependent. Neither labour or the SNP has improved their lot, in fact their situation has become worse.
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179. At 3:54pm on 14 Nov 2009, anthony piepe
Ignorant, misinformed, and unable to read others posts properly.
You do seem to have a bit of an attitude problem, you probably ought to lie down for a while, preferably in a darkened room, and dissipate that anger of yours, people might take you seriously then.
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Re :184
I understand the point you are making Susan about it will be Labours record that will be on trial during a General Election.
However I think the salient point here is that the Scots after having no representation by Torys for a decade are if you like "out of the habit of voting Tory."
They see Labour and the SNP as oppositions to each other rather than Tory's and Labour as in England.
This is why I feel the vote in Scotland will split between these two rather than between Labour and the Conservatives.
I also agree that is likely to be the English that demand dissolution before the Scotttish.
I wish I could find the link now that I was reading the other day. Someone has worked out that England are the only net contributors to taxation in the UK. All the other home nations are net beneficiaries.
This may always have been the case I am not sure but more and more people are realizing that the Union disadvantages England.
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superAngry 186
Sorry, yes I did not my point clear really. Labour are taking heart from this win in Glasgow but as you rightly say the situation in Scotland is different. Therefore this result will not be reflected in a General Election where it will be between Labour and the Conservatives and Labour will be defending their record instead of being opposition to the SNP. Therefore the result of this bi-election is largely irrelevant to Labours chances in a General Election.
There is absolutely no doubt England is disadvantaged in the Union and it is my firm belief that the breakup of the Union will come from the English. Many people I speak to these days say it would be wise to cut Scotland loose now. It is strange to think it is Scotland push for Independence which has awakened this feeling in the English. I do not believe Scotland will vote for Independence now the full extent of the problems this would entail are known to electorate. Furthermore the business community it seems advise against an Independent Scotland.
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Re 187
Susan I am not surprised the business community are advising against an Independent Scotland. They probably feel that taxes in Scotland will rise as the subsidy given to it by the English are withdrawn. There is no interest as powerful as self interest.
You are of course right about the by election in Glasgow North East. It surprises me that Labour can claim it as some kind of historic victory on the lowest ever turnout in Scotland. I think Labour MPs have to be honest given up the fight and are resigned to the political wilderness. I think we are likely to see many more quit before we get to the election if only to pocket the £60000 or so payoff they get before it is reduced. Of course it gives the lie to the, "I didnt come into politics for what I could get out of it," nonsense.
I hear that two polls due out tonight will give the Torys a 14% lead over Labour. I think they are probably in an unassailable position in England now, though I dont relish the prospect of a Tory Government. It I think is certainly to big a gap for Labour to overturn before a General Election and there is only one person to blame for that one Gordon Brown.
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sa @ 186
"I also agree that is likely to be the English that demand dissolution before the Scottish"
if this were to happen it would be tantamount to what is overwhelmingly the largest and most powerful country in the Union effectively forcing the smaller countries to go it alone, even though those smaller countries (1) may not want to and (2) may not be viable as independent nations
next to no chance of that happening (and rightly not)
no, the route to an independent England (if such is to be our destiny) can ONLY be via the independence of the smaller nations, as mandated by the population of those smaller nations ... starting with Scotland
by default, in other words
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RE :186
Why would they not be viable as independent nations. There are lots of small nations in Europe that are "viable"
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189 sagamix
What rot.
You say that independence for Scotland, Wales and N.I. would be a bad thing if driven by an English desire for it's own independence, but a good thing if the driving force was the smaller countries themselves. Independence FROM England good, independence BY England, bad!
Given that they would end up with the same result, how can this possibly be, except for collective national bruised pride. Rather like a couple getting divorced, there will be a petitioner and a respondent, but either way it's the same result.
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@ 190 ... well I'm not saying they aren't; they might be and they might not, I don't know - it's a size thing more than anything, Wales is pretty small for example - Scotland, I guess, is the most obviously viable - Northern Ireland is a bit tied up with the whole United Ireland question, isn't it? - but what I think is not really the point, what's important is what they think - if the people of those countries vote for independence, then so be it - should happen, will happen - but otherwise not, I'm afraid - England can't force independence on them by doing it first - that's not a realistic option - any case, a lot of the anti Scottish feeling in England right now stems from the strong Scottish flavour of the Labour government, in particular its Leader Gordon Brown and the large number of Scottish Labour MPs - after the General Election, we'll almost certainly have a very "English Looking" Tory Government (with virtually no Scottish seats) and this will dissipate most of the English antipathy towards Scotland - the English desire for an independent England (which is not especially strong to start with) will decrease - conversely, having a very English Tory Government will increase the desire for independence in Scotland - conclusion is that Independence for England may one day happen, but only as a consequence of the Scots and the Welsh voting for their independence; plus NI doing same or the creation of a United Ireland - by default, in other words
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yellow @ 191
I never write rot; you misunderstand
read and concentrate please
if the smaller countries WANT their independence and vote for it, that's one thing
but if they DON'T want independence and are FORCED to be independent because England vote for their own (thus ending the Union) then that's quite another
comprendez monsieur?
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RE :192
So you believe if a majority of the people of England want Independence they should effectively be held to ransom by Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland?
As for anti Scottish feeling I would like to point out I am not anti any country I am PRO England theres a difference.
Even if England becomes an Independent nation and by extension so does Northern Ireland whether that leads to a United Ireland will be up to them as it is now. It will make no difference in that respect anyway.
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185 Yellowbelly.
"Ignorant, misinformed, and unable to read others posts properly.
You do seem to have a bit of an attitude problem, you probably ought to lie down for a while, preferably in a darkened room, and dissipate that anger of yours, people might take you seriously then."
If someone writes that all the main parties are unfit to govern, but the conservatives "Should hold their nerve" presumably to gain power, then it is reasonable to point out the error in logic.
But for many people irrationality is itself a value;as an individualist
I would not try to deprive you of the comfort of your beliefs.
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Good Evening Andrew and yu'all,
interestingly the BBC have an article on the Saudi involvement in the Taleban:
Recent years have seen the re-emergence of the hardline Islamic Taliban movement as a fighting force in Afghanistan and a major threat to its government.
They are also threatening to destabilise Pakistan, where they control areas in the north-west and are blamed for a wave of suicide bombings and other attacks.
The Taliban emerged in the early 1990s in northern Pakistan following the withdrawal of Soviet troops from Afghanistan.
A predominantly Pashtun movement, the Taliban came to prominence in Afghanistan in the autumn of 1994.
It is commonly believed that they first appeared in religious seminaries - mostly paid for by money from Saudi Arabia - which preached a hard line form of Sunni Islam.
The Taliban's promise - in Pashtun areas straddling Pakistan and Afghanistan - was to restore peace and security and enforce their own austere version of Sharia, or Islamic law, once in power.
In both countries they introduced or supported Islamic punishments - such as public executions of convicted murderers and adulterers and amputations of those found guilty of theft.
Men were required to grow beards and women had to wear the all-covering burka.
I really do not understand why there is not more condemnation of Saudi Arabia in respect of keeping terror off our streets, they would appear to be paying for all this. As for Brown going to Saudi Arabia, and yet telling us he won't speak with terrorists, or the Taleban, please don't insult the dead on all sides of the conflict!
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181 EB
183 SA
It is an interesting question as to whether the break up of the union with Scotland would be initiated in England and have majority support?. Though this would not be essential if a Westminster government decided on it.
However the mechanics of seperation are one thing and values are another.Mr.Cameron has recently endorsed the union,I cannot see a conservative or labour government ending three hundred years of history and tradition.Good God man,the queen is involved.Would we lend her to Mr.Salmond to give him an aura of legitimacy?
Viability is one thing,norms are another.Some of us like the Scots and some Scots like us.So viva the union and long may it flourish.
You see, I am actually a conservative like most of you.
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sa @ 194
"So you believe if a majority of the people of England want Independence they should effectively be held to ransom by Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland?"
I have no objection to you putting it that way, although I wouldn't myself - one has to recognise that England is overwhelmingly the largest consituent of the Union and the position has consequences ... this is one of them
"As for anti Scottish feeling I would like to point out I am not anti any country I am PRO England there's a difference"
there IS a difference, yes, although the two often go together - if you tell me you are simply pro England and you have no anti Scotland feelings, then who am I to say otherwise?
"Even if England becomes an Independent nation and by extension so does Northern Ireland whether that leads to a United Ireland will be up to them as it is now"
correct
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As has been said by others the union issue may die down south of the border after the election if an "English" Tory party prevails, however there is a real issue where Scottish MP's can vote on issues which don't affect their constituents - it is not beyond the wit of parliament to devise an equitable voting system that addresses this.
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Re:197
Sorry Anthony I am not a conservative of any description and that includes being a Conservative and Unionist.
The issue isnt really whether Cameron endorses the union or not. The status quo is increasingly unacceptable to many people especially in England because of the anomaly of what is know as the "West Lothian Question."
Re :198 saga
As to the position of England as the largest nation having consequences. The people of England have every right to decide their own future as far as I can see. If the people of Scotland and Northen Ireland have that right it seems absurd to say we dont.
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#188 superAngry
I hear that two polls due out tonight will give the Tory’s a 14% lead over Labour.
One of the two polls you mention ‘YouGov’ is available at the following link but have yet to publish the data on their site. The other ‘ComRes’ poll due out in the Sunday Times also give the Tory’s a 14% lead.
Conservatives remain 14% ahead
The figures for YouGov poll are:
CON - 41%(nc)
LAB - 27%(nc)
LDEM - 18%(+1).
One question for those predicting English Independence please can you justify were this will come from?
All three major parties in England are Pro-Unionist and the ‘Others’ in the poll represent a mish-mash of parties and in total are left with 14% of the vote.
So once again were will this English Independence push come from?
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196 Catch22 wrote:
"I really do not understand why there is not more condemnation of Saudi Arabia"
The stock answer that politicians give when pressed on exactly the point you make is "Saudi Arabia is an important strategic ally". This is almost certainly true, despite their links with terrorism, if you look at the bigger picture. So the lack of condemnation of Saudi Arabia is to avoid rocking the boat, diplomatically.
Not very ethical, but there you go. Who said foreign policy had to be ethical?
Er ...
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Re: 201
I wasnt predicting English Independence Roll on I am not Nostradamus lol.
We were discussing the effect of the next General Election and the possibility that the Conservatives would win a majority in England and have hardly if any representation in Scotland. They would therefore owe there office to England only.
However there is in England a growing English Nationalism that will be hard for any party to ignore. Certainly Cameron is already talking about limiting the voting rights of Scottish MPs on English matters I believe I am right in saying.
However I would personally prefer English Independence.
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pd65
Robin Cook tried but dropped it very quickly - compromise goes with the territory
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The ComRes poll is now available from their site:
ComRes Poll.
ComRes Poll results
Con - 39% (-1)
Lab - 25% (-2)
LD - 17% (-1)
Others - 19% (+4)
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# 196
"I really do not understand why there is not more condemnation of Saudi Arabia in respect of keeping terror off our streets"
I find it hard to believe you can't.
The Taliban are a creation of the Americans, with Saudi technical support, for use against the Russian invaders. After the Taliban took over they remained very close to the US and were feted in America, which isn't something they like to broadcast, but it's all a matter of record. The strict form of Islam practised by the Taliban didn't exist in Afghanistan and is more akin to the Wahabi form existing in Saudi Arabia.
It is reported that many of the mosques in the UK are Saudi funded and supported, which is a concern considering that there can't be too many Saudi Muslims in this country, but then we probably aren't rich enough to have our own foreign and domestic policies.
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196 Catch22
And which govt chartered a plane to fly 2 dozen of Osama Bin Ladens family out of the US right after 9/11 ?
And where did they fly to ?
And why did the FBI agree to this?
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sa @ 2C
absurd? no, I don't think so; the other position is saying that, say, Wales could be forced to go it alone as an independent Nation regardless of whether the Welsh people want it or not, and regardless of whether Wales has a promising future as a fully independent entity - that's absurd, I would say - let me try a non perfect but not too bad analogy; consider the difference between ... (1) Alaska leaving the USA based on the vote of Alaskans, and ... (2) Alaska being EXPELLED from the USA based on a vote of everyone in America BUT Alaskans
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205 Roll-on wrote:
Others - 19% (+4)
That's interesting. Looks like UKIP are on the march! It's that Europe thing again, isn't it? No wonder the Tories are never keen to focus on it. Thorn in their side.
And as we know, if UKIP are on the march, then Labour are heading for a fourth term. It's just how the numbers work, I'm afraid.
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sa @ 203
"I wasn't predicting English Independence"
but in your 186 you predict it's "likely to be the English that demand dissolution before the Scottish" ... the post I responded to in the first place
so do you mean that although it's likely England demands independence before Scotland does, nevertheless the eventuality of EITHER country doing so remains unlikely?
clarify perhaps?
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I think it would be folly to assume that the Conservatives are determined to keep the Union alive. I believe if there was a desire by the English to have Independence this would suit the Conservatives. Their voting base is almost exclusively English and their anti EU stand is in line with the English voter. In fact I think the Conservatives will find it very difficult to keep the Union together under these circumstances.
I noticed that the Conservatives have pretty much dismissed the bi-election in Glasgow as not of particular interest to themselves.
As for Scotland they have made their own destiny by introducing the nationalist aspect to their politics and voting for it. They have their own Parliament. They did not ask the English for their opinion so I do not quite see how it is incumbent on the English to ask Scotlands permission, to either go Independent or have their own English Parliament.
Anyone who has read Salmonds delcaration that he will cause problems in the UK Parliament if he has influence in the case of a hung Parliament for Scottish gains, can see clearly that there is no respect for English people in these actions
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#209 pdavies65
#205 Roll-on wrote:
Others - 19% (+4)
That's interesting. Looks like UKIP are on the march! It's that Europe thing again, isn't it? No wonder the Tories are never keen to focus on it. Thorn in their side.
And as we know, if UKIP are on the march, then Labour are heading for a fourth term. It's just how the numbers work, I'm afraid.
Your numbers don’t work I am afraid.
Again for your information I repeat the figures this time to include 3 of the others:
ComRes Poll Results
Con - 39% (-1)
Lab - 25% (-2)
LD - 17% (-1)
Green - 6% (+1%)
UKIP - 5% (+2%)
BNP - 3% (+1%)
Others - 5% (nc)
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211 Croftie
You have raised a point I have not considered before.
You are right, "we" were not consulted never mind asked if we agreed to the Scottish Parliament at Holyrood.
The next q? is why not? Because the Westminster power base is a Scottish cabal that thought it could curry favour by sucking up to seperatism ? Well if that is the case they got their fingers burned as the SNP rubbed their noses in it and the English are doubly annoyed at the Scottish effect.
So yes you are correct "we" have no need or obligation to consider Scotland in any Parliament for England move. How we will get it if the Scottish mob currently wagging the dog continue I do not know.
Why do all the English backbenchers stand for it? What on earth are they afraid of ? Deselection? Well the electorate will most likely do that so please can they go down in a blaze of glory and "think of England". Please.
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#209 pdavies65
By the way the 'Others 5% (nc)' I did not include in my previous blog @ 212 are:
SNP - 3% (nc)
PC - 1% (+1)
Others - 1% (-1)
Although not named in the Poll I presume the others, in this instance, include: English Democrats, Monster Raving Loony Party, Rainbow Alliance and the Noddy Party…. Nonentities.
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Total to pay out 750million pounds for health and safety violations ref the Buncefield Explosion.
This is peanuts and once again the HSE have failed their duty of care to protect the general public.
One of these days we are going to have a CATASTROPHE related to the oil industry and my money is on the Chad/Cameroon pipeline closely follwed by the BTC Pipeline.
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independence for England ...
guys, you're not thinking this through properly
sure (tun) we could set up an English parliament without asking Scotland or Wales or Northern Ireland, but then we'd have both an English parliament AND the Westminster parliament - given England makes up 85 pc of the population of the UK, that would be an absurd extra layer of government and bureaucracy - it would also render the position of UK Prime Minister virtually meaningless
no forget that - forget English parliament without full independence, I mean - makes no sense
so here's the question to focus on; can we go for full English independence AGAINST the wishes of the smaller nations? ... just "cut em loose!" (to quote my best girl, Susan)
if you think about that for a second (having first popped any anti Scottish feelings you may have into the jar marked "Things interfering with political analysis") then I hope and trust that you'll reach the same conclusion as me
not really
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Good Morning Andrew,
so we are now being told that Gordon Brown is going to apologise for the treatment of children who were sent to Australia, where they were 'mistreated'.
Now excuse me but all this apologising for stuff which happened in the past is pretty galling1 Why? Because I would like Brown to apologise whilst he is still in power for our invasion and subsequent occupation in Iraq. I would like him to apologise for the reasons which were given for the invasion. I would like him to apologise for himself and not for others, he funded the war, he could have stopped it if he had opened his mouth at the time of the invasion. He could have said if you, Blair, go ahaead with this then I withdraw my support, only he was gutless and didn't.
Brown should apologise alright, but for his part in one of the most shameful involvements in a war of aggression, an illegal war, where war crimes have been committed, where our soldiers were placed in harms way without the correct equipment, where orders were followed, and we basically are responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands! Now if Brown were to apologise now for that, if he showed any real moral courage, then, maybe I would think that he was being sincere rather than just a immoral, despicable hypocrit.
As for Blair, he should be in prison under guard, not President of Europe. The world must have gone mad to even think that it is possible.
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roll @ 212
so it looks like UKIP have gone up from 3 to 5 pc ... a 67 pc jump!
forget about Cameron or a Labour 4th Term (sorry PD!) I reckon Farage is on his way to Number Ten
and we're on our way out out OUT of Europe
a glorious, proud and independent future awaits our Sceptred Isle!
or our Sceptred "Independent England" perhaps ... if you can be Sceptred without being an actual Island
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Good morning each & Andrew.
That ALL MPs vote on British issues, Scots ones on Scotland issues, English for English issues and the Welsh and NI the same.
Is this not enough to settle the question of a parliament for England?
N.B.
All talk of English etc. means Constituency geography, no race thing.
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Good Morning Andrew,
I notice that Marr is not hosting his programme this morning, the lovely Sophie is taking it instead, no Lord Mandelson though to interview!
In the meantime a certain J Stewart is going to be interviewed. I wonder if he will be asked about being an ambassador for the failed bank RBS and asked exactly how much money he has been paid over the last few years to be such an ambassador. Bet you it was not a derisory sum, hope he got paid more that a certain J Murray.
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Andrew,
listening to that wonderful J Stewart on the Marr Show. He referred to educucation and dyslexia, that in Scotland it is the law that children with this problem have to be identified and helped. Now he then went on to describe what happened 'down south' well excuse me Stewart the country 'down south' is actually a place called England, a word which also Brown seems to have problems referring to.
There is trouble brewing because basically England will be very conservative in respect of the number of MPs, Scotland will not. I can see the dissolution coming pretty quickly. There is trouble at the Mill, it was the banks in Scotland which caused the financial crisis, it is Royal Bank of Scotland and it is Bank of Scotland which are the problem, don't swallow the guff from the government over this, it is time for England to demand that we be given a referendum on getting our freedom from the dead weight of other minor countries, with their pathetic hypocracy, and bigotry.
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Andrew,
I identified an issue about Obama not going to Copenhagen. Miliband was on the Marr Show this morning. Sophie asked him should Obama be there. Brown will be there, other world leaders will there, heads of state, Brown will be there. Excuse me but can we stop hinting that Brown is a head of state, he is an elected MP who happens to have taken over the government as a result of a coup. He lacks legitimacy, he even lacks the legitimacy which Karzai has.
Brown should not go to Copenhagen, the conference recently held in Asia attended by Obama shows how little the Americans think of Copenhagen and the whole issue of climate change. I love it when others pick up on my themes, Copenhagen is a staging post. The wagons are rolling, they don't know where to, and when they get there it is not necessarily where they thought that they were going to in the first place.
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sagamix 216
I do not see your point, the Westminister Parliament would become the English Parliament. No extra building or layer of Government is required.
There is no anti Scottish feelings involved in this. Merely the need for the English to form their own destiny as the other Countries have.
Cutting loose. That was not my expression it is one which has been expressed recently by a number of people, showing the resentment is growing. Salmond has fuelled this anger and will continue to do so, I believe. However it is time to put this sorry Union out of its misery anyway, it is not working. Scotlands idea of its future is totally at odds with Englands ideas. Each must now find its own way.
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...Please forgive the temerity of one Scot commenting on the blog of another Scot about British Politics...but;
Dyslexia.
It is the law in England too that children with educational problems should be 'tested' as to their suitability to be Statemented.
This statement process is to lay out the educational needs of the particular child. It has been the law for a good while, but. Just try and get your child statemented and you will be in for a long wait. Councils would, naturally, have less of a call on their resources as they resist statementing children. The less they spend the easier it is to get re-elected and the 'odd' child can go hang.
Again the old idea of politics being about the Red and the Blue and NOT about the people lets us all down.
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#222 catch22
Too, too right mate. We should be a Republic!
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xTunbridge 213
The Labour Pary thought it would retain a voting base for ever in Scotland if it set up a Scottish Parliament. They did not bank on the SNP becoming the more popular party. England has been ignored totally in all of this, merely there to provide the tax payer money for these other Parliaments. Times are changing and once Brown and the Scottish element have gone from the Labour party you may very well see the Labour movement turn and support what the English now desire Independence. It may be the very means they use to make themselves electable again.
The Conservatives I believe will be very content with a future which means England is Independent.
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#226 Susan-Croft
I think you are entirely coeect.
In that Labour thought to cment themselves in power with allowing a parliament in Scotland.
You say that the Tories should do much the same with an English parliament, but what of the pople. What of the Tories in Scotland, the rest in Egland?
There must be more to Democracy that mere Party Advantage.
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218.sagamix
"forget about Cameron or a Labour 4th Term (sorry PD!) I reckon Farage is on his way to Number Ten
and we're on our way out out OUT of Europe"
Canada, Australia, California... mmmm.
Iraq inquiry:
"That Sir John Chilcot served on the Butler inquiry is like trying the same crime twice with the same judge and jury – not a credible standard for truth-seeking,"
Carne Ross, UK's former Iraq expert on UN security council (Observer)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/15/sir-john-chilcot-wrong-man
Another whitewash/waste of time and money looming??
***
"MoD investigating alleged rape and torture of Iraqi civilians by troops"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/nov/14/british-troops-iraq-torture-rape-abuse
Ditto.
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216 Saga
Westminster is mainly superfluous now for three parts of the country so why do we have to suffer it with its Scottish bias and having all the "indepedent" N.Irish,Welsh and Scottish mob vote on OUR conditions ?
To try and make sure I am not talking total cods on this I researched Holyrood and found that Westminster retains a sort of power of veto over it. Like to see it uszd.
Ah but there is no need when Westminster is controlled by Scots is there, coz in effect Westminster will have okayed whatever the Scots want already.
Just in case you try the anti Scots response , NO I have no problem with the Scots but I have a big problem with a crowd that mutter all the time about varying dgrees of independence while virtually running the English from whom they want independence. Talk about double helpings of cake.
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#196 superangry
and others, regarding the financial viability of the 4 Home Nations.
If this link works, and is allowed, it is an interesting report from Oxford Economics which shows the true "net" contributors to the UK finances, and the "net" beneficiaries.
Whilst it is true that Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland are net beneficiaries, it is not quite so simple as an England paying for the others scenario.
"But our calculations
show clearly that the widely recognised picture of
England ‘subsidising’ other parts of the UK does
not tell the full story. In practice it is not England as
a whole that is subsidising other parts of the UK,
but the most prosperous parts of the UK
‘subsidising’ both the non-English parts of the UK
and the rest of England as well. It is only the wider
south east (Greater London, the South East and
the Eastern Region) that made a positive net
contribution to the UK public finances in 2004/05,
with the northern regions, the midlands and the
South West joining Northern Ireland, Wales and
Scotland as a net drain on the exchequer."
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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The Scottish Parliament was set up as a pay off for Scottish MPs effectively keeping the Labour Party as a "fighting force" for want of a better phrase during the 80's and 90's when Labour had been out of power for nearly two decades. This is why England was never asked about it.
England was never asked about the Welsh Assembly or Stormont Parliament either by the way. Before saga decides I have some objection to any of these Parliaments Assemblies or any of these nations I dont.
However the fact is that this has left England disenfranchised across whole areas of government policy such as education where Scottish MPs vote for laws that do not apply to their own constituents.
To clarify for saga I do not "predict" Independence for England but I think the Union can and will not continue in its present form. No matter what Cameron does or doesnt do the Scottish Parliament will continue to insist on the devolution of more and more powers. The Welsh Assembly is calling for the same kind of powers that Holyrood has too.
As more and more powers are devolved the imbalance in the constitution will become increasing apparent. Inevitably this will further fuel resentment in England if their MPs and Lords continue to vote on matters pertaining only to England. I believe separation "under these" circumstances will be therefore inevitable.
With this gradual loosening of ties English Nationalism will grow and NO party will be able to avoid responding to it if they wish to be a fighting force capable of winning power.
It could still be posssible to hold the union together in some form perhaps all home nations as a commonwealth of Independent nations if that is what they chose.
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susan @ 223
"I do not see your point"
no - happy to restate - pls see below
"the Westminister Parliament would become the English Parliament. No extra building or layer of Government is required"
but in that case it would no longer be the UK parliament, would it? - hence no UK parliament (unless you want to build a new one!) and no UK ... that's an independent England, yes?
which brings us crashing back to the problem I'm pointing out - your position is that England can (and should) force the smaller countries to go it alone even if they don't want to - that IS your position, isn't it?
"There is no anti Scottish feeling involved in this"
of course not, Susan
"Cutting loose. That was not my expression it is one which has been expressed recently by a number of people, showing the resentment is growing"
indeed (ref your 187) because it's all coming from the "many people you speak to" and you yourself don't share the anger and the anti Scotland resentment - that's obvious (!) from all your posts on the subject; you're above all that, goes without saying
"However it is time to put this sorry Union out of its misery anyway, it is not working"
once more for the people at the back ... what if Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland do not want to be independent?
you want to IMPOSE it on them?
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You really couldnt make it up could you.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1227871/Fury-immigrant-baby-killer-paid-4-500-bribe-quit-Britain.html?ITO=1490&referrer=yahoo
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xtun @ 229
listen, no-one's saying you're anti the Scottish people or culture or anything ... it's resentment against what you perceive to be their undue political influence we're talking about, right?
right
and so when we have a Tory Government with a number close to ZERO of Scottish MPs (or Welsh for that matter) your resentment is going to lessen, isn't it? (if not, why not?)
conversely, the Scottish (and maybe Welsh) resentment of the UK is going to INCREASE - stands to reason, no?
thus, an independent England (should that be on the cards) will come about via the smaller countries voting to break away and NOT England voting to expel them
which is where I came in
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My 230 was merely supplying information that superangry had requested, and that others might find useful, about the net contributors and net beneficiaries of the UK taxation system.
It seems we have a super-sensitive moderator today, so try googling "oxford economics regional finances" instead.
BTW, other internet search engines are also available!
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233 superAngry wrote:
You really couldn't make it up
Couldn't you? Not even if you're the Daily Mail?
You either have a very keen sense or irony (well done!) or are labouring under a huge misconception about journalists.
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sa @ 231
you're a funny old coot sometimes!
you keep insisting you're NOT predicting independence for England, then you write a post using just about every word you know to say exactly that
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232 Saga
Your parting shot to Croftie is disingenuous.
We should have the same rights as the "other three" ie our own legislature to decide our lives without the idiocy of the others being able to vote worse conditions for us than they enjoy themselves.
I would add that how all this would be funded is another kettle of fish entirely.
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My #230 pointed out that whilst England is a net contributor to The Union, it is a little more complex than that. In fact, it is only the wider south east (Greater London, the South East and the Eastern Region) that made a positive net contribution to the UK public finances in 2004/05, with the northern regions, the midlands and the South West joining Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland as a net drain on the exchequer.
However, on a national basis, it is true that Scotland is a net recipient to the tune of approx £10.8 billion, Wales to the tune of £8.5 billion, and Northern Ireland £6.4 billion.
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See
http://www.oxfordeconomics.com/Free/pdfs/regcont.pdf
for details.
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Re :236
pdavies I thin it may be a touch unfair to say journalists "make things up" I accept though that they could be accused of exagerating the case in some instances.
Re :237
That is the first time I have ever been called a "coot" saga I am very impressed. Thank you
Re :239
Thank yellowbelly for that information.
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xtun @ 238
"disingenuous"
if we're defining that word to mean "a burning desire to help people think through the ramifications of what they spout" ... then yes, happy to be so ... proud even
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blame @ 228
yes well, if I thought that pulling out of the EU could turn us into a kind of North East European California (with the weather) I might just consider it; we'd need our own version of Arnold, wouldn't we?
Bob Hoskins?
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If the Union is dissolved into their four separate entities, the 3 non England nations will continue to receive their handouts albeit from Brussels rather than London. I really cannot see any objection from the EU as they already fund some projects in these countries anyway.
There may be some readjustment on how much England pays to the EU assuming they stay in, but these are trivial issues. I believe that it is precisely the EU that weakens the pro Union argument and especially the Treaty of Lisbon. Once again it is all about intended and unintended consequences about something hat was ill thought out (if at all) by an incompetent, lazy political elite that had more pressing matters such as personal wealth accumulation.
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ecb @ 244
"If the Union is dissolved into their four separate entities, the 3 non England nations will continue to receive their handouts albeit from Brussels rather than London. I really cannot see any objection from the EU as they already fund some projects in these countries anyway"
but do you think it's feasible or right for England to force independence on the smaller UK entities, regardless of whether they want it or not?
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242 Saga
I must congratulate you on being able to turn disingenuous into a compliment !
Been doing a bit of lateral thinking on the Union. Surely there must be some Human Rights or Race Relations Law against the way the English are treated ?
I mean subjects of the same Queen , in the same Kingdom, (theres a lovely bit of English eccentricity ), and legislated against in a harsher manner than other subjects in other parts of the same Kingdom.
Surely some brief could make a case out of that .
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The disolution of the union will be driven by Scotland, if it is driven by anyone.
South of the border we get rattled by the West Lothian question, which must be addressed but we are never going to declare UDI on the rest of the union.
A Tory administration which is not reliant on the Scottish MP's to prop them up may be more inclined to look at this in some depth - it is in their self interest to do so.
Although with the revenues falling from "Scottish oil" there may be more ambivalence towards the union than before.
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@ 246
"Surely some brief could make a case out of that"
sounds like you're the man for the job, Tun
make sure you "keep yer wig on" though, won't you?
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236. At 11:39am on 15 Nov 2009, pdavies65 wrote:
233 superAngry wrote:
You really couldn't make it up
Couldn't you? Not even if you're the Daily Mail?
===
114. At 2:07pm on 05 Nov 2009, pdavies65 wrote:
While we're on the subject of Cameron's mortgage, has this been quoted before? It's from the Daily Mail:
===
Ha, ha, that's very funny, Mr Inconsistent.
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246 xtunbridge
Yes it does exist in the Declaration of Human Rights as set out in the basic prionciples of the United Nations in 1948. It bangs on about equality a lot, such as equality of employment, freedom of movement etc. So if you subsidise lots of public sector jobs in Scotland say, and spend less in England (Barnett formula) per capita then the Human Rights of those living in England have been breached. I used to live in Scotland and the pavements and roads are miles better than in England - I still have to get used to the poor street light at nights.
245 saga
The devolved parliaments have been foisted on the English electorate without their say so. The issue of Scottish MPs voting on English issues has never been addressed as Blair could not be bothered. Donald Dewar was left to his own devices, and when he died no one else in the Labour Party had the bottle to do anything about it. That is why we are in this mess just now, a mess of labour's own making, intransigence and plain laziness.
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Sagamix
This is exactly the same approach your adopted towards the immigration question. Produce no answers yourself but close the debate down by insisting the people concerned are anti Scottish, thus intimating prejudice again.
I have made it very clear in my posts that I believe Scotlands best interests lie in staying in the Union. They cannot afford Independence. The SNP are a very inept government and are control freaks. Salmond is a very frightening prospect indeed for the future of the Scottish nation. For the sake of the Scottish people I have made my views very clear on this.
All that being said I am English. Englands best interests are not being served in the Union. A lot of income is flowing Scotlands way. Scotland has a totally different view on politics to us. They believe in the EU, England on the whole, does not. Nearly all important powers will be devolved before too long. They have a different legal system etc. Scotland by its very nature is a separate Country. Add to this the anti English bias that Salmond has introduced, and make no mistake about this it exists, they have by their own hands made themselves Independent. At the moment Scotland are having their cake and eating it. They demand, we give, to keep them in the Union. Of course having a Scottish PM has not helped. With the best will in the World you cannot have a Country of around 5 million holding another 60 to ransom.
Over the coming years Scotlands influence not only in our politics but as a Nation itself will decline as the Salmond Government has sought and succeeded to make Scotland less open to the outside World. In other words Scotland is being pulled backwards in an ever increasingly Global age.
England on the other hand needs its Independence to move forwards in the Global age. Nationalism such as Wales and Scotland embrace will hold us back and we will have to continue to carry these Countries in their desires to move backwards. This Independence for England would not only move us forward in the World but would also settle our immigration problems as we enter a more Global age. England could be a very rich Country on its own, it is its constant spending to accommodate the other Countries which is such a costly exercise.
It is my belief that the UK Parliament should become the English Parliament and that any business which needs to be held as regards the other Countires could be held anywhere. The cost alone for providing for these representatives from the other Countries to be at Westminister is unnecessary as most issues are decided in the home Countries anyway. It is just a false way of keeping the Union together.
Independence will come quite naturally to England by default, much sooner than you believe, I think.
Finally as you well know, I have shared these views on many occasions on this subject and therefore I do not intend to discuss any further this subject with you....that is unless you share your thoughts and we can all challenge your views!
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Oudies 227
The Conservatives in Scotland differ from those in England. Scottish Conservatives (what there are of them), are still very insular in their outlook. The problem is that they are trying to maintain the old fashioned views. This is why what small amount of immigration there has been, (although it has increased very rapidly recently), is causing quite a stir amongst the electorate. Different to others on here, I thought the vote for the BNP in Glasgow was very illuminating. This vote will grow.
The real problem is we are either all British and embrace the unity it brings, or we are not. The English are the only people being forced to call themselves British in this Union. The other Countries have been allowed the luxury of becoming a Country in their own right, whilst still having the privileges of the Union.
This is quite wrong.
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243. sagamix:
Saga, those were possible destinations should Farage ever get the top job.
On your point:
"Bob Hoskins?"
How about Sir Anthony Hopkins (if Wales was still part of the union)
'Would you like a nice chianti with your liver Mr. Sarkozy...?'
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bg @ 253
you're too subtle for me sometimes, Blame, but any case I think the good people are going Gungers for an Independent England so sorry you can't have SAH, nice idea though it is
will need to be a "National Treasure" like Ann Widdicombe or (better!) we split the leadership North South ... go for Stevie G up there and someone safe as houses like Peter Allis down here
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yellow @ 239
"In fact, it is only the wider south east (Greater London, the South East and the Eastern Region) that made a positive net contribution to the UK public finances in 2004/05, with the northern regions, the midlands and the South West joining Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland as a net drain on the exchequer"
so the wealthier parts of the UK pay more tax (compared to what they "get back" in public spend) than the poorer parts!
I dunno ... whatever next?
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susan @ 251
"I have made it very clear in my posts that I believe Scotland's best interests lie in staying in the Union. They cannot afford Independence"
you DO keep making that clear, yes
you think Scotland can't afford independence ... i.e their future outside the Union would be grim indeed ... and yet you're in favour of unilaterally declaring an independent England, thus forcing them to go it alone REGARDLESS of whether they want to or not
oh and you're not "anti Scottish" of course, it's got nothing to do with that ... you're just "Pro England"
you're a mess and a half, aren't you?
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sagamix 255
You need to go back and read that again.
It is due to overspend, there is no doubt that the non English parts of the UK are gaining much more than the English from the Union. They contribute much less than they spend of our taxes.
This has nothing to do with poverty.
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ecb @ 250
that's a lot of words to avoid a very simple question, I must say
let's try again:
do you think it's feasible or right for England to force independence on the smaller UK entities, regardless of whether they want it or not?
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sagamix 256
No not a mess, just fair unlike your good self. I try to take a balanced approach which you should try sometime.
You on the other hand are like a stuck record, repeating the same old chestnut. Sorry it has not worked up to now and never will.
As soon as you bring up the prejudice rhetoric you lose the argument.
Scotland would quite happily declare themselves Independent without consulting us, if they wanted to. Just as they had a Scottish parliament without consulting us. Therefore England has every right if the Union is disadvantaging England to do the same.
As I said in my last post, why not put some views up that others may shoot at for a change. Unless of course you have none.
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susan @ 257
no sugar, YOU need to read my 255 again
do I talk about the affluent parts of the UK paying relatively more in tax than they get back in public spend? and do the so called "subsidised" regions include most of "England" outside of the South East?
... yes I do and yes they do
is that what these stats are mainly about?
... yes they are
as to what you're talking about, well who knows?
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RE :260
Saga I am interested to find out what benefit if any you think the Union brings to England.
Before you think it ots not a trick question am I am not trying to trip you up I am just interested.
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sc @ 259
"you lose the argument"
I'd actually quite LIKE to lose an argument with you, Susan ... I hate winning the whole time ... makes me feel like a bit of a bully (you know?) but you make it next to impossible
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sagamix 262
I am afraid that is in your head. You present nothing to win the argument, therefore you can never win and never do.
As to a bully, yes I believe you are and it does you no credit. I could go further but someone called Emily did that for me.
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255. At 3:45pm on 15 Nov 2009, sagamix
What a stunning critique, how long did it take you to work that one out? I'll have to see if Oxford Economics have a position for somebody as perceptive as you.
Truisms are just that, because they are the truth. If you think you can do a better analysis of the data, then please follow the link and let us know the result, with that razor-sharp brain on the case, shouldn't take you more than 15 minutes, tops.
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sagamix 260
The argument in question as you very well know is Independence for England. Therefore the non English parts spend beyond what they contribute. I have to say the actual figures even surprised me.
It matters not whether the wealthy parts of England help the poorer parts of England, a lot of money is being spent in keeping the devolved governments going. There are still also a lot of things these Governments do not pay for. This must also be taken into account.
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sa @ 261
England makes up almost 90 pc of the Union in terms of population; we ARE the UK, really ... hence a lot of the angst from the Miniatures! ... so your question is a bit peculiar - you could, for example, look at the different parts of England and say that the more affluent parts subsidise the poorer parts (as per the figures above) - but that's a bit facile since we're all rather more interwoven than that - people from the North of England come to the South to work and contribute, for instance - and there's many other examples of our mutual dependency - I guess the truth is (simply because England constitutes almost all of the UK already) that for us to be independent of it wouldn't make much difference - it WOULD however make a great deal of difference to the small entities (Wales, Scotland, NI) and that is precisely why it must be down to them as to whether they go independent or not - it CANNOT be for the dominant country, England, to force that situation upon them - I'm very surprised you can't see that unless your desire for English independence is being driven by some sort of urge for the free expession of some "English National Character" which you think is being unfairly locked down ... yes that must be it
that was the Broadsheet analysis anyway but let's do it in Tabloid too; your desire for English Independence is mainly to do with ...
(1) elimination of the "Scottish Subsidy", or
or:
(2) Morris Dancing?
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Re :266
Well after that barrage and thanks lets see if you can read the question this time.
"I am interested to find out what benefit if any you think the Union brings to England."
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yb @ 264
"Truisms are just that, because they are the truth"
my point exactly! ... pls check back to see context ... a truism is a self evident truth which does not lend itself to analysis and further conclusion
what was YOUR point?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
sa @ 267
"Well after that barrage (and thanks) let's see if you can read the question this time ... what benefit if any you think the Union brings to England?"
don't be so rude, babe!
pls see below for a copy of the relevant sentence from my excellent reply:
"I guess the truth is (simply because England constitutes almost all of the UK already) that for us to be independent of it wouldn't make much difference"
i.e. (since I think you need quite short and simple communication, don't you?)
No Big Gain, No Big Loss
listen, if you keep not understanding what I write then I'm going to get bored with you - I don't want to ... please don't think that! ... but it's pretty much bound to happen
and where will that leave you? ... up a gum tree, all on your own, and chuntering on about being "English"
mmm, not so good
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#268 sagamix
MY point in QUOTING the concluding paragraph from the report was to establish that the situation is a little more complex than England as an entity subsidises the rest of the UK.
The point you made yourself in your #266, after you had bigged yourself up in your usual self-important way.
If YOU had read my post properly you would have seen that, and not taken the "mick" over a quoted conclusion from a report.
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Re :270
So your answer is there is no benefit to the Union for England. I think I shall rest my case there.
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susan @ 263
"As to a bully, yes I believe you are and it does you no credit. I could go further but someone called Emily did that for me"
is my lack of respect for your half baked, mean spirited, ill thought through opinions because ...
(a) I'm a sexist pig?
or:
(b) the opinions themselves?
I promise I'll consider that long and hard
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sa @ 272
"So your answer is there is no benefit to the Union for England. I think I shall rest my case there"
and no loss either ... therefore no gain from dissolution
so what "case" are you resting?
the case for keeping the Union?
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yellow @ 271
okay sorry, just checked back ... my fault ... didn't want the Donuts seizing on it as false evidence to support the "Independent England" case; when they do I'll direct that sarcastic and "self important" comment of mine in their direction where it belongs
please accept etc etc
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Re :274
Well actually there is a loss. If you look at yellows post
"However, on a national basis, it is true that Scotland is a net recipient to the tune of approx £10.8 billion, Wales to the tune of £8.5 billion, and Northern Ireland £6.4 billion."
There is a net tax loss to England of £25.7 Billion.
Yes I was asking you to put the reasons why England should remain in the Union? What advantages / benefits does England enjoy from it and so far you havent come up with any.
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@ 275 and 276
see Yellow, they're doing it ... didn't I tell you?
but no SA, I don't like that analysis; you can equally well declare UDI for the Home Counties on that basis - very narrow and jaundiced view
your case for an Independent England doesn't boil down to the minutae of the current tax and spend flow, does it?
where's the glory? the blood and guts? ... where's the Cromwell in that?
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Sagamix 273
You do not have opinions just questions you cannot answer yourself, therefore it matters not your motive for putting people down.
It is better to have an opinion, meaning you are a thinker than no contribution at all, of which category you fall into.
How can you know my opinions are ill thought through when you have no opinions of your own both to offer as an alternative or to progress the argument.
Could it be you are just a little nervous that your power bases in Scotland and Wales may disappear. You being part of the Labour elite as you constantly tell us.
Pointless rhetoric, we all can do that.
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Re :277
No it doesnt saga I only gave that as an example however limited.
I was hoping it might prompt you to give me a positive for England remaing in the Union.
If you cant think of any positives I am happy to accept that but please dont do your usual thing of not answering a question by posing another question. Whilst I always enjoy debating with you it does get a tad tiresome when you do that.
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susan @ 278
don't give me that nonsense; I gave you seven fantastic policy ideas just the other day!
and on this one? ... here's what I think:
- we have a problem with MPs from devolved regions voting on English Only matters
- I agree it IS a problem but I'm not quite so livid about it as some of you guys ... don't think it's in our Top Ten of things to worry about, shall we say
- nevertheless, I don't say it's of NO interest and I'd recommend we solve it by finding a practical way such that MPs from devolved regions can no longer vote on English Only matters
- the above would perhaps make it difficult for someone representing a Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish constituency to be PM and that's fine by me
- devolution can't be reversed and we shouldn't try to
- we leave it to the small countries (Scotland, Wales, NI) to decide if they want full independence - if they do, fine - if they don't, fine
- we (meaning YOU and yours) try and raise our game a little bit; focus on some of the approximately hundred and one things which are (or should be) far more important to the people of this country than whether we are getting a "Raw Deal" compared to the Scots
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sa @ 279
I think you'll find what I do (to be fair) is I answer a question, and then I often zap one back; a kind of conversation as it were ... but not everyone can manage it, I do understand that
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Re :281
Well you still havent answered my question about the postivies for England in the Union.
Not much of a "kind of conversation" then is it. Maybe you havent quite grasped your own concept yet. Dont worry we can wait for you to play catch up with us. lol
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It is several months now since I had a meeting with the Exeter Tory MP wannabe about the Exeter PFI schools and despite numerous emails to her,it would appear she has has ALSO put an email ban on me ??!!.
I wasn't impressed when I met her because she sits on the local Health Authority and admitted to me that she OFTEN maintains radio silence when receiving complaints from the general public.
The FOI are also taking their time making a decision ref my FOI request for information on one of the schools.
I envisage I might make a FOI record for dealing with a complaint?!!Time is on my side.
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Taggy/Catch22
I hope the forthcoming MOD inquiry into prisoner abuse will shed some light on your particular problem and get the injunction removed from your family member.
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#284
And who is Taggy? Is it somebody whom I should know?
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Sagamix 280
Now you have calmed down a bit. I do not mind what opinion you hold, what I do dislike is your way of delivering it. I have worked in a mans World for a very long time, and your attitude would not be tolerated by the men I work with let alone me.
The facts are that it was not England that reneged on its duties to the Union. England kept its unity with other parts of the UK despite much provocation. It is not nice to see those who are receiving more money, and they are. (England takes on the big expenses which are yet to be devolved) getting better services than England is. Salmond has made a great effort to rub English noses in this.
Now there are many reasons I could give you why England should go Independent, you would possibly have to live in Scotland or Wales to understand, but the main one is we have no Parliament of our own. This is grossly unfair. Putting that aside, England should embrace the Global age. Whilst Scotland and Wales are putting money into kids learning Gallic and Welsh and wiping the name British from TV programmes and services. English kids should move onwards with learning about the World we live in and will be trading in. I do not want to confine England to this narrow view of just the EU, the big trading partners will now come from much further afield.
Thus Scotland has a totally differenty outlook on how to move forward they want to be a small fish in a huge sea called the EU. England with its own identity could be a very rich Country trading all over the World. It is now time for England and its people to decide their destiny, much as Scotland and Wales have.
If the other Countries of the union decide that they do not want to go Independent then the circumstances are these. They must start to embrace the rules of the Union and stop the nationalism. The money must be distributed fairly. England must be given its own Parliament. Otherwise we are not a Union and it is time for the Countries to go their separate ways. As I know this will never happen, the only way is for the Union to cease.
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105#
Doesnt reflect well on the RN does it, especially after the debacle in the Iran/Iraq littoral when HMS Cornwall's "Inspection Party" got taken in for a bit of hospitality by the Iranian Revolutionary Guard...
Dear oh dear. I know comparing an RFA with a T23 isnt exactly the same, but damn it, its still AK's vs 20-30MM cannon... what is so restrictive about their rules of engagement that they couldnt even fire warning shots?
What the hell have the navy become??
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re 287#
And more to the point, who knew about it in Main Building in Whitehall and tried to cover it up? It only broke because one of the crew of the RFA blew the lid on it.
Probably on very very extended shore leave as a result....
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EXXONMOBIL2
I hope things are ok with you EXXON, keep your chin up, everything will work out for you.
XXXX
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Ref 285 Catch22
You know I know and that's good enough for me. A.K.A Terry the Taliban??!!
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sa @ 282
"Well you still haven't answered my question about the positives for England in the Union"
answered ad nauseum (266 270 274) - no big Pros no big Cons in my view
do you want it in Chaucer's "Ye Olde English" perhaps?
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RE :292
Chaucer's "Ye Olde English" will be just dandy saga.
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I think the clue is in the word 'Union'. A bit like marriage. A wife can't say she can't be divorced because she'd be scared be to all alone in the world, and the word 'union' is suggestive of equality of status, so you can't have it both ways, like a whining child always threatening to leave whilst enjoying the ability to represent a ball and chain.
A simple solution would be for either Labour or the Tories to put forward a referendum themselves, which I see as a 'win win' situation. You either kick Scotland free, or reduce the Scottish Parliament to irrelevance as a glorified Urban District Council.
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NuLabour - New tax scheme:
Queen's Speech: pay to have your DNA removed from database.
Innocent people will have to pay £200 to fight to have their DNA removed from the national database under proposals in the Queen's Speech next week.
For those that can afford it.
Ha well I guess it’s for the few and not the many.
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susan @ 286
"I do not mind what opinion you hold, what I do dislike is your way of delivering it"
well call me old fashioned but I tend to go for clear English, rather than befuddled and mealy mouthed dissembling
your stuff is mean spirited and small minded
also dishonest
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295 Roll-on
I read the first line of the Telegraph story, and it seems you only have to pay if you are challenging in court a chief constable's refusal to remove your DNA.
If a chief constable has not specifically refused to let your DNA be removed, it will happen automatically after six years.
Telegraph's heading was a bit misleading, so I can see why you got confused!
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gp @ 294
"You either kick Scotland free, or reduce the Scottish Parliament to irrelevance as a glorified Urban District Council"
now this I like
straight as a dye anti Scottish sentiment with no "England Uber Alles" fig leaf
congratulations to the author
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sa @ 293
Gudde ... Ye aren't being honest about your Engerlande trip ... it's about fear and inadequacy and the Thing Which Dare Not Speaketh Its Name
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Naw I based my analogy of the NuLabour NuTax on other articles I had also read; for example this one:
Innocent suspects' profiles still reaching DNA database.
Liberal Democrat research, based on parliamentary answers, shows that 433, 752 profiles have been added to the DNA database since the ruling by the European court of human rights in Strasbourg on 5 December last year – the equivalent of 1,480 a day.
So far only 611 profiles of people who have been arrested but not convicted of any crime have been removed from the database after individual challenges to chief constables.
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#209 pdavies65
#205 Roll-on wrote:
Others - 19% (+4)
That's interesting. Looks like UKIP are on the march! It's that Europe thing again, isn't it? No wonder the Tories are never keen to focus on it. Thorn in their side.
And as we know, if UKIP are on the march, then Labour are heading for a fourth term. It's just how the numbers work, I'm afraid.
By the way I came across this analysis with regards UKIP:
Are Tories really most at risk from UKIP?
These numbers suggest that the widely stated view that most of UKIP’s support comes from ex-Tories is simply wrong. Labour is seeing precisely the same seepage.
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The question of whether the Scots or English will initiate the dissolution of the union is a distraction. The real issue is whether an incoming conservative government will unintentionally do this, and whether this will affect their electoral prospects both north and south of the border.
There is Scots` bitterness engendered by the Thatcherite legacy of de-industrialization without concern for its social consequences.
Present Conservative economic policy of cut first and ask questions afterwards will exarcerbate this bitterness as it cuts into Scotland`s industrial base of manufacturing and services.
Finally the culture of English conservatism is rejected by most Scottish people because the Scots, like the Welsh, retain more of a national identity than the English, who are more stratified along class and racial lines.These divisions make an English parliament less viable than the Scots and Welsh assemblies.We don`t have one but several national cultures consisting of distinctive habits,memories,traditions,folkways and styles of life.
The last time we melded as a national culture was during WW2,hence the nostalgia and picking over the bones.
At present, majority opinion in both England and Scotland wants to maintain the union. Mr.Salmond is waiting until 2010, on the prospect of a conservative victory, before he holds a referendum on independence.Whether anticipation of this will weaken the conservative
vote is the question I am now posing
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300 Roll-on
Yes, the Guardian - that's better.
Factual, in-depth, and doesn't resort to making up scaremongering stories about new taxes.
You should have quoted that one first time round.
I agree, by the way, that this is a serious issue and I'm not too happy with the idea of innocent people's DNA being stored by the police or other authorities.
It's just a shame the Telegraph can't suspend its own party political agenda long enough to write a serious article about it.
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If I say I could care less, it will be taken as racism, but if you realise I feel the way about Cornish crab fishermen it puts the matter into some perspective.
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BNP leader to stand at General Election.
The leader of the British National Party, has confirmed he will stand in Barking at the next General Election.
2005 GE results:
Party - Votes - Percentage share of votes
LAB - 13,826 - 47%
CON - 4,943 - 17%
BNP - 4,916 - 16.9%
L/D - 3,411 - 11.7
Incumbent Margaret Hodge - Labour
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gp @ 304
no such thing as racism, Gomer ... certainly can't be defined ... it's all just a great big complex world and everything is one shade of grey or another shade of grey, and one man's golden opportunity is the next man's shallow grave
innit?
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302 anthony piepe
Yes you are right the English are a disparate group of individual villages, towns , cities and counties. Some of which have been at war in the past, Roses, and others that still see the next town as foreign and of course Cornwall thinks it isnt part of England anyway etc. So yes how to bring that motley together for a legislature could be fun.
You give the key though with thw WW2 reference. When it matters we all pull together.
Also we are talking about a joint strategy on matters which affect us all so there is a common interest.
However the same must certainly exist in Scotland from the old Clans who used to murder each other and there must still be emnity towards those who helped the English way back when.
Certainly North and South Wales are poles apart.
So if the latter two can do it so can we despite any parochial differences.
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sagamix 296
Always good know you revert to type when you have no answers. Ok I gave you the benefit of the doubt and you proved wanting.
No answers from you, no point to your contribution.
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Young Robinson gone missing again, I see... and a hot topic closed down after 79 posts... wouldnt have minded chucking in yesterdays Sunday Times piece about the RAF being shrunk by 25% as well. Oh well.
I've just had a thought, albeit a passing one...
Does Nicks blog only remain open past a couple of hundred posts when the rebuttal unit guys are online and in full chorus?
I'll have to look back and see....
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sc @ 308
"Ok I gave you the benefit of the doubt and you proved wanting"
have a heart, Susan ... I try so hard ... so very hard ... and you know full well (don't you?) how much I want to impress you, yet you go and callously knock me back with something like that
you're meaner than Ebenezer before the Ghosts got him
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Very interesting article in the Times about NuLabour cash-strapped policy at next GE:
Cash-strapped Labour ‘gives up’ on 60 vulnerable seats.
Labour’s cash-strapped party machine is quietly abandoning up to 60 vulnerable seats to divert resources to defend constituencies in its heartlands, according to MPs.
It is the first sign that some senior Labour figures accept that defeat is inevitable and are switching resources to defend seats with larger majorities to prevent a rout next year.
It appears that NuLabour will only be targeting seats with a majority above 3,000 and apparently abandoning the rest as far as resources are concerned.
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Good Morning Andrew,
so at last a major politician 'Clegg' has come to the same conclusion as myself. Namely, what exactly is the point of the Queens speech. All that labour will do when they eventually have to hold an election is to tell us that we have an unfinished job; that Brown has really not had eneough time; that he has held his nerve whilst all about him have lost theirs; that Brown has shown himself the perfect man for the crisis. The problem is that any analysis will show that he is the man who has created the disaster out of the crisis. He sorted out 'foot & mouth', foot and mouth created by a government, or near government laboritory, good word that if if analyse it, as for the floods people are still not settled. As for the occupation of Iraq, yep he ended it with the soldiers leaving with their tails between their legs, Afghanistan I'm sorry I won't go there.
So, why exactly is there going to be a Queens speech this week. What exactly is the point other than for her to utter the shamed words 'My government will...'this most shamed and shameful government, headed by an unelected Prime Minister who bestrides the world as a collossos, who solves everything, who will not serve a full term, but who never put in to the Queens speech that in the event of a party being elected with a leader who subsequently is replaced for reasons other than ill-health, then a general election must be held within six months of the change of leader. And we know that Brown is in fine health, and is unlikely to be replaced for reasons of ill health, don't we?
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Andrew,
I hear that we are to send six helicopters to the front before Christmas. Now I thought at one press conference that Brown said that he had been advised that for reasons of the safety of our brave soldiers, who are the best in the world by the way, and national security, that he would not actually reveal the number of helicopters operating in Afghanistan. So why exactly is the information being released that six helicopters will be going to Afghanistan. I mean six, a can see that all the stops are being pulled out over this one. Why are we telling our enemy this information. They should not be told that we are sending 'x' number of soldiers. We are giving succour to our enemies, there must be no military information released, only to the family of any soldiers killed, it is just so demoralising and there must be no news reporting of Wooton Basset. This is a war! Uh, no it is a waste of young lives, that is what it is in an occupation. If as some seem to say it is war, then where exactly is the declaration of war, just like Vietnam was never officially a war as defined under the Geneva convention. Talk about pots and kettles, we (NATO) have just annexed Afghanistan!
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307 Xtun
"However the same must certainly exist in Scotland from the old Clans who used to murder each other and there must still be emnity towards those who helped the English way back when.
Certainly North and South Wales are poles apart."
A shared or divided culture in England compared with Scotland and Wales is not either/or, but more or less.Being small nations helps, as does the conservatism of a shared mythology.But no society is free of conflict.
An English national parliament would need to institutionalize serious class and racial divisions as well as marked regional differences.At present the celtic elements in Westminster dilute and obscure these potential areas of conflict.
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In relation to Afghanistan what I want to know is what on earth is Obama playing at. If he is so convinced that his strategy is correct why is he dithering over the decision to send 40,000 more troops. Surely this indecision must be causing problems within the coalition, with leaks saying there should be no more troops and the armed forces saying there should. This will surely lead to more of public feeling this conflict is not worth while, if the President has no confidence in what he is doing.
Obama is starting to look very much out of his depth as President and his popularity is falling. He has no idea how to deal with the big issues, being a man of rhetoric more than substance. Definitely the wrong man for a time of crisis, such as this. He has little grasp of the enormity of the financial problems and no one appears to be taking a lead on this in America. All his concentration seems to be on his healthcare ideas almost as though he is looking for a legacy instead of getting on with the job in hand. If he continues in this way he will start to make Bush look good.
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Not just Mrs Janes then.....
"The mother of a soldier killed in Iraq was horrified to find that his name was spelt wrong on the Elizabeth Cross that she received.
An accompanying scroll signed by the Queen had the same error.
Lieutenant Richard Shearer, from Nuneaton, Warwickshire, died in a roadside bomb attack four years ago, aged 26. Maureen Shearer opened the package on Friday to find that the medal and the document featured a non-existent middle initial “A”.
Mrs Shearer, a retired teacher, said: “I just couldn’t believe it. The least we deserve is to have his name spelt correctly.”
It was not the first time that the family had had to deal with a distressing error — the young soldier’s coffin was inscribed with the wrong date of birth when it was flown back from Iraq.
The incident follows the criticism at Gordon Brown for misspelling the name of Grenadier Guardsman Jamie Janes in a handwritten letter to his mother.
Mrs Shearer, a mother-of-two, said: “I’m extremely upset. Losing a son is devastating and I still think of Richard every single day. I opened the package on Friday and just couldn’t believe it when I saw they had got his name wrong.
“I can only think that it was a clerical error but when it comes to something as important as this then the details must be checked, double-checked and made 100 per cent accurate.
“It may just be a name and number to somebody at the Ministry of Defence but my son was a real person who is still missed by all his family and friends to this day. The least we deserve is to have his name spelt correctly.”
It emerged last week that civil servants at the MoD were sharing a £47 million bonus pot, while the Government were cutting the budget for frontline soldiers.
She said: “I just can’t believe they’ve made such a mistake, especially with the controversy around the recent letter Gordon Brown wrote to another grieving mum.
“With Ministry of Defence staff getting such huge bonuses they could at least spell my son’s name right. It is only a small thing but the medal is supposed to recognise the sacrifice Richard made, so we want everything to be just perfect.
“Four years ago I watched Richard’s coffin being unloaded at RAF Brize Norton and I broke down when I saw they got his date of birth wrong.
“Our boys deserve so much more than this. I hope no other mum has to endure these mistakes in the future.”
A spokesman for the Ministry of Defence said: “The MoD would like to apologise for any distress caused to Mrs Shearer. We will of course be sending a new Elizabeth Cross.”
Ho hum.
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xTunbridge 307
An English Parliament or Independence would make very little difference to the situation we have now. In fact it would make the running of England far easier. The UK Parlaiment would become the English parliament. The costs would reduce as we would not have to accommodate other representatives coming from the other Countires within the Union. It would continue pretty much as it is now.
We have a shared culture at the moment and it has a wide spectrum, as it should do. I do not understand how this would change. Unless we want to turn to ugly nationalism, that is what is meant by this shared culture idea. Englands parliament could be a very progressive one.
We could keep more of our own taxes decide our own destiny, without having to take into account other Countries politics and old fashioned ideas. We could really move forward in the World. We could embrace a new Global age that is opening up, as a Country in our own right, if we educate our children towards this goal. All the big trading partners in the future will come from different areas of the Globe now. There is no need to confine ourselves to America or the EU anymore. I personally find it quite an exciting prospect.
All it takes is for there to be a will to move forward and change.
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Catch 22 312
It is not just how absurd it is for the State Opening to happen it is also the cost. For political reasons we have to endure the bringing forth of legislative programmes that will probably never see the light of day. Any wasted costs at this time, are no good for the Country.
The time for an election is well overdue and should have happened before now. We therefore, must endure one more farce on behalf of this Government. Brown will go down in history as the PM who was so terrified of democracy he held off the election to the cost of Britain.
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Andrew:
Whats the betting that Jack Dromey will get parachuted into the safe seat about to be vacated by Mr Byers at the next election?
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#316
You would not be surprised how many people are treated the same way. Only they don't want to cause a fuss, but they should. This is happening all the time and in many other situations. We are now just numbers, nothing else. Anybody who thinks that our 'rulers' actually think of us then they are more stupid than I thought. We've nearly reached the end of the road to serfdom, we've just given it all away.
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Andrew,
listened to Brown on the number 10 podcast about the speech which the Queen will be giving. Now what concerns me most of all is this new National Care Serice, which is, I think, going to replace the National Health Service in respect of care for the elderly and chronically ill.
Now there was a phrase which Brown used 'for those with the highest need' was what he said. Now who decides on those with the highest need. How will need be assessed, and who will pay for it. This is all about bed blocking, if you think that this is anything about choice then dream on.
It will be about exploitation, exploiting those loved ones who will have to look after their loved one, but the state will buy your silence, what have you got to complain about, hand them over to us and they won't last five days, chemical cosh, bed sores, all the usual stuff.
As for what they are going to do for the soldiers, please it should have been done years ago, only Brown would not fund it. I suppose though that we ought to look at it in terms the repenting sinner, he will now do more than is needed just to make up for all his previous errors.
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Re :301
Interesting article Roll on. There are many core Labour voters in my area which is traditionally rock solid Labour who are furious with this Government over the Lisbon Treachery.
Many are simply walking away from the Labour Party because of it.
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Re :299
Saga I think this was rather rude dont you.
"Gudde ... Ye aren't being honest about your Engerlande trip ... it's about fear and inadequacy and the Thing Which Dare Not Speaketh Its Name"
I am neither dishonest nor am I as you imply Anti Scottish.
You do like to compartmentalize people dont you.
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Ref 289 Susan Croft
Wow, 4 kisses from Croftie, that will keep more than my chin up. Thanks Susan for those few kind words and don't worry,life aint too bad for me at the minute.
Bit hectic recently with moving house last couple of weeks ,that's why I have been a bit quiet but ALL systems go now.
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317 Croftie
You are without doubt a galss half full lass.
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super angry @ 323
morning; given I don't have the pleasure of a personal acquaintance with fellow bloggers, I can only call things based on what each one writes - I'm sure I get some things wrong (of course I do) but I'm just as sure I get a lot of things right - as regards you, I feel your opinions are driven primarily by anger rather than rational analysis - which is fine, why not? - hence the user name, I guess - I wouldn't call what I do "compartmentalising" people, I'd more say I like to probe around a little bit rather than accept everybody at face value - and then, after sufficient probing, I make a diagnosis - you can think of me almost like a Doctor if that helps
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hey Gomer ... a former Big Cheese in the City is saying that any attempt to curb big bonuses is "Dangerous"
don't you just luv em!
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330#
So you dont take the view then Saga, that the powers already granted to the FSA are adequate to deal with this issue? And that, not for the first time in its life, the FSA has been given teeth that it knows less than s*d all what to do with?
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Good Afternoon Andrew,
at last. I have been listening to the breaking news of the brave testimony of a soldier who was the only one convicted of causing harm to Mousa. At last, just as the Document programme on Radio 4 tonight will be exposing stuff from the war, and the possible lies told by Macmillian in the 1960s to parliament.
At last the others having been involved are being exposed. I want trials, I want charges brought against these people. I don't want they have already been tried and found not guilty, if there is any justice in this country then certain individuals must be brought before the courts.
I have a very close family member who has an injunction taken against preventing him from speaking in public, about 'stuff'. Well it is time for the lid to come off what happened in Iraq. You look at the judges comment when he found Colonel Mendonca not guilty of the charges against him in the original court case. Unless I am shown to be wrong then you will find it is because he was following orders.
The treatment of Mr Mousa goes to the very top. It is time that the officers and generals were brought to justice, to the very top, that's where this goes. The politicians, the generals, the other senior officers had better get there bags packed, I think that jail awaits them.
If these men are not brought to justice then there can never be justice, there will never be peace in Afghanistan either.
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Ref 332 Catch22
I agree Taggy and I think the flood gates will open now but when you say it goes to the top it should include TB and other Ministers.
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Andrew,
just listened to Harman on the news. Talking about important measures, 'bunking off'. Please exactly how long did the MPs take off for their summer holidays. When they could have done something about care for the elederly, they could have done something about the bankers. Please this is absolutely pathetic.
As for the bankers and action being dangerous. Consider the dangerous dogs act. They may well try to tear up peoples contracts. Excuse me but there is a law of contract, as soon as you allow the contracts to become sunservient to the wishes of a government then you are in serious trouble.
You live in a house with your family, your partner and your children. The children grow up and leave home, get married and have children of their own. Your partner dies, leaving you in a large house, so the government, for the best possible reasons comes along and says, you must sel up and move to this sheltered housing scheme we have set up, its in your own best interests. Yes, the changes to contracts are dangerous, not for the bankers, but for us all. We are getting ever closer to serfdom, the ends justify the means, these people are dangerous.
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xTunbridge 327
No, I would not be saying it, if I did not believe in an economic plan on how it could be achieved. Believe it or not in this recession we have a real opportunity to make a difference. We could turn this into a positive if we choose to. For England I mean. The other Countries are not progessive enough, they lag behind, caught up in their nationalism and turning the clock backwards to their perceived ideas of history.
Continue the way we are and yes, poverty and a spiral down for England will be the result. Take a revolutionary approach and we could get out of this and make changes that are well overdue.
The only really big problem in this plan is, are any of the political parties that exist and hold the power, brave enough? Are the public realistic enough for such change? I know the young are, but what about the others.
Bear this in mind for one moment, if we could solve our years of economic failure, we could start to address all the social problems we have. They go hand in hand.
For years we have accepted the same concept of tax, spend and creating wealth, time to look to a new way me thinks.
No pain, no gain.
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It is the contradictions of the FSA which should worry people. On the one hand they are demanding that the banks should lend more, whilst at the same time demanding safe lending. Oppressive regulation could very well dry up credit altogether the very thing which is needed at the moment. They cannot have it both ways.
We could of course go back in time where most people did not own their own properties because credit was not available. This however is not possible in a Country where council housing is in short supply. Therefore totally safe lending is not possible.
What about the public itself. Surely the person who takes credit should have some responsibility for themselves. Are we in such a nanny state now that people take no blame for their actions. Perhaps it is the mind set of the public which needs to change to more old fashioned ideas of responsibility.
The whole system under the FSA is so ridiculous, that they should be disbanded immediately. Return the powers to the BOE, replace the inept Government loving King and we may see some sense.
As to bonus payments, the Government cannot and will not be able to tell private enterprise what they can pay their workers. This is just more posturing by the Government which will have no effect. They can tell those who have taken Government money, however we know bonus payments are still being made in those that are in public ownership, so again it is a case of the Government says one thing and does another.
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332/333#
I wouldnt worry about it too much gents... the rate this lot are going, there isnt going to be anyone left. You're looking at an RAF that will be even smaller than the Navy within 5 years at this rate down to 31,000.
Thats not a "Force", its a militia. Harriers gone within 5 years, 5 stations to close, including at least two in Scotland (which has got Angus Robertson panicking) 4 out of 7 AWACS mothballed, helicopters handed over to the army...
Just as well we're not facing any kind of credible air threat innit?
I'm half inclined to suggest that if he can deliver those kind of cuts without being held at gunpoint by the Treasury, that there may be a place for Air Chief Marshall Sir Stephen Dalton running the NHS...
Or the Post Office......
Oh well. In the words of Paul Weller.... "The public wants what the public gets"
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332 catch22
I am beginning to think that the last 12 years of spin has concealed a nasty type of persons that have been running this country - they lack a fundamental grasp of what is right and what is wrong. No human decency whatsover.
I do hope I am wrong.
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336#
Agreed Susie - theres been no rush to condemn bonuses at the FSA or tear up any performance related contracts there has there?
Or at the BBC?
Or in any of the quangos?
Or in local authorities recruiting CEO's at 200K+?
Mind you with all the money they're saving cutting the RAF by 25%, they can probably afford it now.
No wonder Robinsons "Gordon & The Military" blog closed after 79 posts...
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336 Susan
I have never regarded Mervyn King as Government loving - indeed there has been some friction reported between the BOE and the chancellor.
The government should be telling the banks that have received state funding what they can pay in bonuses, the interests of the depositers and shareholders should take precedence.
I feel much more sympathy with the small investor whose Lloyds shares are now worth next to nothing than the banker who is bemoaning his bonus.
If the bankers don't like it they can move on and any new employment contract the banks draft should have a clear correlation between long term performance and pay and should not ignore the interests of the investors.
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Good Afternoon Andrew,
after my earlier post please could readers refer to Hansard for February 26th 2009 col.394 where John Hutton ,then a Minister of Defence, had to announce the results of Records of Detention (Review Conclusions). In his comments he said the following:
'I regret that it is now clear that inaccurate information on this particular issue has been given to the House by my department. However, I want to stress that that was based upon information available to Ministers and those who were briefing at that time'
Now taking into the account the programme which the Document programme is going to refer to may I humbly suggest that rather than concentrate too much on the distant past we really should be looking at what has been done in the recnt past. To help readers the programme tonight is about possible torture during WWII, and the possibility that 'events' Macmillan might have lied to parliament. He won't be the first and he won't be the last.
The government must come clean on the death of Baha Mousa, they knew alright, either that or the deaths of six Military Policemen in Iraq put an end to any serious inquiries. Maybe there ought to be another inquiry into the circumstances of their deaths, and why a number of men from the parachute regiment were unable to assist the brave MPs in their hour of need.
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X Tun 307
The national culture of WW2 reduced class differences which were prevalent pre-war.Full employment and better standards of nutrition helped,as did the interaction of officer`s and men in a citizen`s army, helped by education classes which looked forward to the war`s end. The post-war political consensus was the product of this alliance between the classes, lasting until 1979 and the generation of Margaret Thatcher,who reinvented a vocabulary of class conflict with references to "Our people" and "The enemy within."
Whether this consensus could be revived for an English parliament is not my main point.I still think a dissolution of the union unlikely but possible.What I am asking, is whether a conservative victory risks a weakening of the union because their economic policies damage Scotland as in 1979? How will this will be reflected in their electoral prospects?, as voters realize they may be voting for a revolution in the constitutional status of the United Kingdom with implications for energy,commerce and security?
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Why is the price of petrol rising at the fuel pumps, yet the price of crude oil is static? The weak Pound Sterling argument against the US Dollar, does not hold water either as Sterling has gained against the Dollar over the last month.
This stinks. And some are predicting more price rises.
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335 Croftie
The nub is in the middle of your post. You ask if the current Parties can deliver a diferent way of doing things.
I think you know the answer.
Unless some new Party than can think outside the box surfaces we are stuck with the same old, well no not the same old it has changed in recent years, we now have the Toff Tories, and I understand that, and the lesser Toffs NuLabour whom I detest for their hijacking of Labour and their abandonment of the working class. The working majority of the Nation has nobody .
Perhaps the LibDems deserve a chance if no savious party can rise from the ashes of our political system.
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342#
I thought you were better than that Bryhers... had to get Thatch in there somehow. I thought you rose above that class warfare stuff. Post WW1 there was a greater dismantling of the class structure as the nation became less deferential than they were before that. The Lions and Donkeys slaughter of the Great War, plus the formation and rise of the Labour party in 1924 plus suffrage marked a turning point in British social and political history. People became less inclined to believe that the upper class establishment actually were their elders and betters.
The enemy within that you refer to is more than likely a reference to 5th columnists and a cold war expression. One that funnily enough, given what we've recently found out about the late Jack Jones and a not insubstantial former Labour politicians and their connections to Moscow had a substantial degree of truth to it. That had nothing to do with class, although chances are that if you're of that persuasion then you may have developed a barely disguised persecution complex about it, like a certain former New Labour Deputy Prime Minister did...
What is there left to damage in Scotland that between them 12 years of New Labour and the SNP havent damaged already?
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meninwhitecoats 340
That was not the point of my post. The situation is that the Government cannot tell private enterprise what they can pay their workers, unless they are prepared to bing in legislation and that would be a very slippery slope.
Indeed the Government can tell those in public ownership what to pay in bonuses, but they are not. Bonus payments are still being made. My point was it is just posturing by the Government, they are doing nothing, nor are the FSA.
It is the same as public sector pay it is still rising while in the private sector cut backs are causing pay to stand still or fall. There is a World of difference between what this Government says and what it is doing.
As to M. King, he is following the Government line as much as he can, except when it is obvious they are incorrect. He should have spoken out before the crisis, during the crisis and about quantitative easing which is just being used to prop up Government debt and not reaching the wider economy. King has always been a mouth piece for this Government. He steps out of line now and then to ensure his job, should the Conservatives win the next election. He needs to be sent packing. The BOE needs to regain its Independence.
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Re :329
Here Saga
There has been a loss of cultural identity in England most certainly over the last 70 years with the growth of Scottish Nationalism. As I have pointed out before the term British only became prevalent to describe people in these islands with that development before this time everybody was described as English. I feel this has contributed to the breakdown in social cohesion in England because of this loss of identity.
England as a nation is consistently left out of the social, historical and political discourse of the Union. You only have to look at speeches made by Brown on education which is a devolved issue to see this. He talks about British education when in fact he and Westminster have no responsibility for Scottish education. This is clearly unsatisfactory misleading and a futile attempt to hold back the tide of nationalism.
In the same way that England tried to hold back the tide of Irish Nationalism and failed we cannot hold back that tide in the other home nations. England must prepare for the possible eventuality that the people of the other home nations will decide to go their separate ways. Once the Nationalist genie is out of the bottle it cannot be stemmed. We have seen this across the globe, Britain and India, India and Pakistan, Czech Republic and Slovakia to name but a few. Burying our heads in the sand will serve us ill and it would be a disservice to the people of England. All nationalist agendas have their setbacks whether it be Irish Scottish etc but the fact is that the eventual outcome of them all is an Independent nation.
Part of those preparations must begin with getting England recognized as a country within the EU. As you all know I would prefer withdrawal personally but this would at least be a first step.
There are clear dangers for England should the others decide to go their separate ways not least of which is that the people of England, who have most closely identified with Britishness, would be left a people without a national identity. No society can hold itself together without ties that bind it. National identity is one of them. Certainly the English do not feel any loyalty to the EU so this couldn’t do it and with the potential for their being no British State this is quite clearly a possibility.
I also think this must entail the recognition of the English flag and its compulsory flying from all public buildings. Also in time there should be some consideration as to a referendum as to what England’s national Anthem should be.
The establishment of Parliaments and or Assemblies for the other home nations has destabilised the constitutional settlement of the Union. No matter whether people wish it was otherwise it is a fact. It is manifestly unfair to the people of England that laws are enacted upon them by MPs who effectively do not answer to them and therefore the English cannot dismiss from office. This is completely undemocratic in my opinion and is causing deep resentment amongst many English people. The danger is if it is not addressed properly and soon this resentment could be exploited negatively by people with an even more divisive agenda. Furthermore clearly the growing demands for more powers for these Parliaments will only exacerbate this situation as I have said before. This anger could easily turn to Anti Scottish feeling etc that saga is so fond of accusing people of being. To allow that to happen would be a derogation of duty for all Politicians at Westminster.
There are of course other considerations such as the financial effects that independence may bring to the other home nations. I am sure no one wants to abandon them but a plan to gradually reduce the English tax subsidy over time might also prove useful in this respect. This would give the others the time and space they need to make preparations in this regard.
All the home nations have deep cultural ties both in terms of family connections, sacrifices on the battlefield etc. Whilst denying none of this it does not mean that England should not be prepared should the time come that the Union is dissolved. It would be better as I said that there was some plan in place now to ensure a smooth transition than to have chaos I am sure you will agree.
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Just found this, which apparently was in the Observer...
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics/nation/Britain-may-sell-aircraft-carrier-to-India-Report/articleshow/5232803.cms
So.... way over budget, no aircraft to fly off them for 2 yrs after they're built - one not at all - and now the possibility that we may flog one of them to India, fresh out of the box...
You couldn't make it up. You really couldn't.
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Ref 338 Excellentcatbloger
I am afraid to say you are right 100%. We are doomed Mr Mannering
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sc (eb) @ 317
"We could embrace a new Global age that is opening up, as a Country in our own right, if we educate our children towards this goal"
yes I can just see it now
Interviewer: "So what are your qualifications?"
School Leaver: "I've got two As and a B!"
I: "Really? ... excellent ... what in?"
SL: "Well, I got the expected As in Small Minded Pomposity and in Mean Spirited Befuddlement and I got a B in Spouting Facile Nonsense."
I: "Oh dear."
SL: "But listen, I had a bad cold when I did the SFN paper."
I: "I didn't mean that."
SL: "Oh."
I: "No, I just meant we'd have preferred something like Maths and Chemistry ... maybe a language?"
SL: "Ah."
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350#
Is that an extract from Ed Ball's Induction ceremony for The Steamers?
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I have to agree with you Susan. The FSA always has been much like the BMA and behaves more like a gentlemans club than a regulatory authority. I almost get the sense that they run any regulation or action by the City first, and the tentative nature of Darling's current attempt at 'banker bashing' appears to be as workable as froth. If, maybe, perhaps, in their opinion, and someone has mentioned that Europe can uverrule it all anyway, and someone else pointed out that the Commissioners who have been pushing our banks abount are actually acting illegally themselves, as their legal authority has expired under EU law - but that's the joke, isn't it ?
The governments proposed regulation is merely meaningless dross for electioneering purposes only. It won't have any purpose or meaning and won't be used. Unfortunately this government has discovered it can make promises, and even embody them in law, then lie.
No matter what Gordon's other faults may be, and heaven he has so many, you don't vote for a Prime Minister or party who blatantly lie to the electorate. The Treaty of Lisbon was beyond the pale, and it's no defence for him to say he did it for our own good. That's an ezample of Fascism if sagamix wants one. When I hear his cancer treatment claims (which are drivel) and then he adds that they will be embodied in law, then I understandably feel fury, to know he's lying, and I have no shame to say that, because you don't need to embody something in law if you believe it yourself.
I have a one word argument for Gordon and Labour - liar.
I won't be voting Tory - but if any argument will sink Gordon - that will do it, irrespective of the Tories' problems on that issue. One word arguments are so powerful, as Gordon tried to demonstrate with 'cuts'.
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329. At 11:30am on 16 Nov 2009, sagamix
Dr Shipman?
Dr Crippen?
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excellentcatblogger 343
Yes I think more price rises in petrol are on the way. This will most certainly hold back recovery.
Oil prices are complicated, however factors other than the obvious effect it such as instablility in the Middle East, constraint in oil supplies by OPEC to keep the price high, increased demand and taxation. I do not think the price of crude has been that stable recently.
The prediction for oil prices for 2010 is up to 100 dollars a barrel, it is therefore incumbent on the Government to stop raising tax on petrol. However I doubt this will happen.
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#350 sagamix
Rather a pathetic response just because somebody has the temerity to not agree with your viewpoint.
Dissent will not be tolerated, eh?
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It would appear that the Bahrain Government are having a few problems with their Expenses???
_________________________________________________________________________
BAI - A leading Bahraini lawmaker is under fire over 18 all-expenses-paid trips abroad as the government looks to curb expenses as part of budget cuts, the local Gulf Daily News reported on Sunday.
MPs bought a weekly session of parliament to a halt last week as they traded accusations over foreign trips, for which lawmakers are allowed to claim 300 dinars ($793) a day in personal expenses on top of their fares and hotel bills, the newspaper reported.
Some MPs were upset that others were able to go on up to five trips a year to conferences or on fact-finding missions, while they did not go on any.
Much of their anger was directed at Salah Abdulrahman, parliament second vice-chairman, who has been on 18 foreign trips since parliament began its current term in late 2006, the paper said.
Prime Minister Prince Khalifa bin Salman al-Khalifa told MPs earlier this month to be “close to people” and not extravagant while unveiling planned budget cuts.
The yet to be announced budget cuts will curtail foreign trips by officials and the size of their delegations, Gulf Daily News reported at the time.
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For those interested in Devolution and The English Question you might find the House of Lords report informative.
On the English Question it seems to come to the conclusion its all too difficult and no one can decide what to do. Well that about sums it up anyway.
I dont think it even occured to them to do the obvious and ask The English.
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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Catch22,how about this for justice.
A Saudi court of cassation upheld a ruling to behead and crucify a 22-year-old man convicted of raping five children and leaving one of them to die in the desert, newspapers reported on Tuesday.
The convict was arrested earlier this year after a seven-year old boy helped police in their investigation. The child left in the desert after the rape was three years old, Okaz newspaper said.
International rights groups have accused the kingdom, the birthplace of Islam, of applying draconian justice, beheading murderers, rapists and drug traffickers in public. So far this year about 40 people have been executed in Saudi Arabia.
In Saudi Arabia, crucifixion means tying the body of the convict to wooden beams to be displayed to the public after beheading.
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Re :357
Sorry folks apparently a report by The House of Lords isnt good enough for the BBC.
I can understand the sentiment I suppose they are unelected unrepresentative overpaid. Oh sorry no thats the BBC
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355#
Dont say you're surprised, YB?
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Good evening each & Andrew,
"They are doomed or we are doomed."
The answer to life, the universe and everything is not only 42, but Mandate.
If we could fill the House of Commons with MPs without party baggage and with the support of more than half of the voters, perhaps way more than half, so many of our present ills could be viewed from a whole new perspective.
It is because our democracy is so much of a game that makes it so easy to play with our economy, our liberty and our spirit.
Many of the short-comings you each identify cannot be simply shuffled away from, but need a change in tack, of approach. Again we are the problem and we are the solution.
Should we send much the same people back into Parliament that have done so much to traduce the standing of the British in the world while at the same time extolling the worth and virtue of oneanother we shall have ourselves to blame, yet again.
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Anyone interested in learning more on the Chad/Cameroon Pipeline please see this report from the DFID/World Bank.
Begs he question wy the pipeline has not been shut down.
http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.com/pa/cm200708/cmselect/cmintdev/67/67ii.pdf
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...what are our total oil, gas, (fossil fuel) reserves? Expressed in years; 40, 50?
Surely this is the problem that we face. Not global warming.
Where, after the oil etc. runs out, does this leave the 'wealth creators'? Do industries and Governments look that far ahead?
Are we to pay more and more for oil & gas till way after the pip squeaks? Need we be weaned off from oil and onto...?
I fancy there is no such thing as 'wealth creation', we just move money around. Like a doner kebab this system allows, promotes, the slicing of the 'ready' parts.
Perhaps we need to down-size [ugh!] (reduce) the pairing so that we each get our slice? The world shall always need spenders over earners.
Our old friend; equality. Or, at least, give the rough a smoothing.
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Has it occurred to other people that all this nonsense about bankers and their ilk moving overseas if faced with tough regulations over their inflated salaries and bonuses is all a load of hog-wash! Following the global financial crisis is any other country likely to copy the crass stupidity and mistakes of American and U.K. banks? I doubt it very much.
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Ref my 364 on Chad/Cameroon Pipeline
The joint report by the World Bank & DFID(attached link in 364) now begs the question WHY THE HELL IS THE PIPELINE STILL OPERATING.
This report also confirms that previous DFID Ministers has misled HM Government but I won't name these Government Ministers as the MODS get twitchy but we all know who they are.
The current speaker has egg all over his face from this report because he is on record Hansard Answers asking numerous questions ref he legal of the Chad Pipeline
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#366 Alfred Penderel Bright
Let them go! Where is there a shortage of home grown gamblers? Especially those who can gamble with other peoples money.
They create their work, they do their work, they create their work...
Imagine a street cleaner bestrewing the road with litter.
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345 Fubar
You wrote: "I thought you were better than that Bryhers... had to get Thatch in there somehow. I thought you rose above that class warfare stuff. Post WW1 there was a greater dismantling of the class structure as the nation became less deferential than they were before that. The Lions and Donkeys slaughter of the Great War, plus the formation and rise of the Labour party in 1924 plus suffrage marked a turning point in British social and political history. People became less inclined to believe that the upper class establishment actually were their elders and betters."
There was an impulse post WW1 towards a more secure if not a more equal society adumbrated by Lloyd George`s " Homes fit for heroes." However, rates of unemployment of between 10% AND 20% between the wars, and the failure of conservative governments to oppose fascism, destroyed these hopes, best expressed in Auden`s famous poem, September 1st 1939.
"I am sitting in a dive in 52nd street/Alone and afraid/As the clever hopes expire/Of a low dishonest decade."
As for Mrs Thatcher, I was concerned with her impact in Scotland where her policies produced widespread de-industrialization.The subsequent absence of conservative representation there has weakened the union because Labour
is now unpopular and less effective as an opposition to the SNP.A future conservative victory will accelerate this trend unless their economic policies produce benefits north of the border.
As for the lady herself,she was best described by Mitterand as having the mouth of Marylyn Monroe and the eyes of Caligula
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347 Super Angry.
"I also think this must entail the recognition of the English flag and its compulsory flying from all public buildings. Also in time there should be some consideration as to a referendum as to what England’s national Anthem should be."
Do you realize you are making us sound like Slovenia or Latvia,wrapping our insignificance in the symbols of nationhood.Where is your pride, the English are a great people,we don`t need constant reminders.
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Re :370
What a bizarre statement. Only in this country would someone say that.
Try telling an American that their flag is an "insignificant symbol of nationhood." Or for tha matter any other country.
Try telling an America or any other country a National Anthem is an "insignificant symbol of nationhood."
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Fubar 345
"What is there left to damage in Scotland that between them 12 years of New Labour and the SNP havent damaged already?"
The answer is plenty after ten years of economic growth and social stability before the world economic crisis affected us all,large and small,deserving and undeserving,profligate and cautious.
However my question concerned the electoral consequences of a conservative victory in 2010?, when people realize it will further damage the union of England and Scotland? My own view is that a majority of English and Scots still support the union,but how this plays out electorally is uncertain.
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365 Oudeis
"what are our total oil, gas, (fossil fuel) reserves? Expressed in years; 40, 50?
Surely this is the problem that we face. Not global warming."
Could it be both? Do you remember the remark of LBJ about president Gerry Ford? "He couldn`t walk and chew gum at the same time."
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#373 ap
It was not 'walk' as I recall.
How bad is global warming going to be in the next 40 years, that it could not be righted by a total lack of the use of fossil fuel after that time?
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I think we should start a campaign that all the poor should be given a bobble hat for the winter, and I bet Gordon would rush it into law. Gordon's solved immigration, cancer, Afghanistan and the banking system as well as the world economy, and probably Climate Change too, only not only has nothing got better, it's all become worse. The only good thing is that, having missed the deadline for world salvation, we must all be doomed anyway. Maybe that would be a good election line, 'Vote for us - you might as well, you've had it either way'.
What Gordon says or promises is no longer of any relevance any more. His promises are beginning to reach the realms of miracles, and I'd be interested to see one actually happen. So far he's only achieved anything by lying, and that tends to take the shine off.
He's pulling the troops out next year ? - yeah sure Gordon. It's all a matter of semantics isn't it ?
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368 Oudeis
I'm with you - let them go.
There will always be someone willing to do the job whatever the pay.
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sa @ 347
read that and found it a little worrying
such intensity of interest in our "National Identity" I find both bizarre and ... to be frank ... potentially dangerous
it can lead to places that neither you nor I would wish to visit
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369#
Well, why didnt you just say that then? :-) That (Scottish de-industrialisation) doesnt really have a class connection though, does it? You dont seriously believe that do you?
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#376 meninwhitecoats
It is a deal more than that my friend.
Here we are, all in this together.
A government is formed from a host of candidates who have a clear mandate from the people, but no. Along comes some spiv banker or money pusher who says he rather go and work in.....than be in it with us all?
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Re :377
There is nothing bizarre or dangerous about it Saga. Every country in the world has a National Identity identified by symbols.
Currently Britains is the Union Jack God save the Queen etc.
When the Union ends England will have a different National Identity.
Its as simple as that nothing sinister nothing bizarre just quite run of the mill actually.
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379 Oudeis
It was a knee jerk reaction but I get sick of the apologists for the banking system who fall back on the argument that all the best talent will leave the country in droves if we seek to regulate the banking sytem and bonus culture.
After all, if these were the best people they did not do very well maybe we should let other people try, they could hardly do worse.
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The issue of banker migration is wholly fallacious, as in the modern world you can conduct business from any office, unless the bank they work for isn't yet part of the computer age. The only reason for staying here is the comfort of a market that can be manipulated to engineer greatest profit, and we've had ample demonstration of who pays when the bank wins. Banks don't 'make' money - they take someone elses - that's business.
While we're filling the pockets of bankers. Here's another deserving cause.
"Home Office figures published in Parliament show that since April 2007, the department has spent £611,470 on “living costs” for people put under effective house arrest on the advice of MI5."
I tend to think we're losing the war on terror, on the grounds of stupidity.
"The money has been spent on accommodation, council tax, utility bills, telephone line rental, prepaid telephone cards, phone bills and “other subsistence," the Home Office said."
No one tell the BNP.
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378 Fubar
"Well, why didnt you just say that then? :-) That (Scottish de-industrialisation) doesnt really have a class connection though, does it? You dont seriously believe that do you?"
Of course de-industrialization has class connotations.When steel,mining and shipbuilding is destroyed,whole occupational communities suffer as can be seen today in the old mining areas.The socially inclusive policies of the SNP have arisen on both Conservative and Labour failure to address issues of equality and social justice.
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Did anyone watch the tonight programme today about the Ambulance Service. It was very disconcerting to learn that Paramedics are not manning the Ambulanc.What next, Poles driving the ambulances?
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37
What a bizarre statement. Only in this country would someone say that.
Try telling an American that their flag is an "insignificant symbol of nationhood." Or for tha matter any other country.
Try telling an America or any other country a National Anthem is an "insignificant symbol of nationhood."
I actually said wrapping our insignificance in the symbols of nationhood
which is a different emphasis.We already have the flag,the anthem,the history so we don`t need to foreground them as if our identity is threatened.
It is your sense of threat and powerlessness which at best is just sad, and at worst can be used to justify aggression against imagined enemies.
1 Super angry:
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I am not convinced that the Attorney General Baronness Scotland is the right person to pursue BAE ref the Saudi Fraud case, especially, when she failed to investigate her own domestic staff recently.
What's taking the SFO so long to mke their minds up on this matter.
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Looks like the Saudi Natives are restless??!!
Officials said the Royal Saudi Air Force has used its U.S.-origin F-15 and British-origin Tornado fighter-jets in attacks on rebels camps in northern Yemen, Middle East Newsline reported.
"The operations will continue until all positions inside Saudi territory are purged of all hostile elements," a Saudi official said. "All necessary measures will be taken to prevent this from happening again in the future."
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The head of Mossad, Israel’s overseas intelligence service, has assured Benjamin Netanyahu, its prime minister, that Saudi Arabia would turn a blind eye to Israeli jets flying over the kingdom during any future raid on Iran’s nuclear sites.
Earlier this year Meir Dagan, Mossad’s director since 2002, held secret talks with Saudi officials to discuss the possibility.
The Israeli press has already carried unconfirmed reports that high-ranking officials, including Ehud Olmert, the former prime minister, held meetings with Saudi colleagues. The reports were denied by Saudi officials.
“The Saudis have tacitly agreed to the Israeli air force flying through their airspace on a mission which is supposed to be in the common interests of both Israel and Saudi Arabia,” a diplomatic source said last week.
Although the countries have no formal diplomatic relations, an Israeli defence source confirmed that Mossad maintained “working relations” with the Saudis.
John Bolton, the former US ambassador to the United Nations who recently visited the Gulf, said it was “entirely logical” for the Israelis to use Saudi airspace.
Bolton, who has talked to several Arab leaders, added: “None of them would say anything about it publicly but they would certainly acquiesce in an overflight if the Israelis didn’t trumpet it as a big success.”
Arab states would condemn a raid when they spoke at the UN but would be privately relieved to see the threat of an Iranian bomb removed, he said.
Referring to the Israeli attack on an alleged Syrian nuclear facility in 2007, Bolton added: “To this day, the Israelis haven’t admitted the specifics but there’s one less nuclear facility in Syria . . .”
Recent developments have underscored concerns among moderate Sunni Arab states about the stability of the repressive Shi’ite regime in Tehran and have increased fears that it may emerge as a belligerent nuclear power.
“The Saudis are very concerned about an Iranian nuclear bomb, even more than the Israelis,” said a former head of research in Israeli intelligence.
The Israeli air force has been training for a possible attack on Iran’s nuclear site at Natanz in the centre of the country and other locations for four years.
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Ref 382GomerPyle
Hey Gommer, that's not a bad idea, I could become a MI5 terrr suspect now my Job Seekers Allowance has been stopped and they would pay all my bills??!!
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369 Anthony Piepe
I never rated Mitterand, I need to revise my opinion.
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I don't think the MODS will allow my post 391 because it refers to a certain Dr, we will name him Dr Who, who starts an Industrial Tribunal aganst the NHS shortly which has already cost the Taxpayer several million pounds.Dr Who is a whistleblower,who maintains a well known London Hospital dumped several thousand xray plates in the Hospital Corridor.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if the NHS settle out of court at the 11th hour as I am sure Dr Who will have a few more surprises and the NHS need such a high profile litigation like a hole in the head.
I shall watch it closely as a fellow whistleblower as I might be able to use it as a precidence??!!
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389 Exxon2
Do you know it had always puzzled me why the Saudies didnt provide better than catapults for their fellow Arabs in Palestine.
I think you have revealed why.
A dirty game this diplomacy isnt it?
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I am disappointed that the MP expenses has died a death. I can't belive that 2 shags Prescott has only claimed for 2 Bog seats whilst his romance with Shirly Temple.
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395 Exxon2
For one so well versed in the ups and downs of life you exhibit a touching niavety about office romances.
They are so cost effective. No meals out, in case you are seen. No hotels in case you are spotted. etc
The office becomes the place de l'amour , with no expenses.
We should be thankful !
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Ref 396 xTunbridge
Maybes so XT but I would expect to find expenses submitted for such skullduggery not just 2 toilet seats. And I am disappoined that the Xs debacle seems to have taken a back seat.Yes, there are more important issues around but we need to nail the offenders. Take this latest claim by Bercow for painting his flat for a good example they are still on the gravy train.
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Ref 394 xTunbridge
Yes, I agree with you and don't take any notice of this BROTHERLY love talk from the Saudis. I have lived and worked in the Middleeast for a dozen years and I know their mindset.
They hate the Jews but will turn a blind eye if the Jews decide to bomb Iran.
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Ref my 393.
Just as I thought, the MODS binned my 391 ref a NHS Dr, who is suing the NHS under the Whistleblower act.
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Ref my 389 Saudi bombing Iran.
If you take a look at the Middleeast Map you will see that a direct line can be drawn betwen Israel and Iran,hence why should/would the Saudis need to turn a blind eye to Israel bombers overflying Saudi Airspace.The only two countries which the Isralie jets need to overpass are Jordon and Iraq so why would the Saudis need to "greenlight" any bombing raid.
I smell a rat with this plan.
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Afghanistan is about Oil and Gas.
Please take a look at this website which also gives a map of the proposed Afghan Gas Pipeline (AGP).
Apparently President Karzi used to work for UNOCOL as an Oil Consultant
http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/oil_war.htm
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More on Afghanistan Gas Piepline
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/india-iran-discuss-terror-from-pak-gas-pipeline/105356-3.html
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Oil the Taliban and Political Balance in Asia
http://www.worldpress.org/specials/pp/front.htm
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398#
....Because it would be seen as a move against Iranian hegemony in the region and damage Irans ambitions to be the dominant power in the Gulf...
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Good morning each & Andrew.
Do we conflate Nazis with Germans? Child molesters with all men?
No?
Why then Judaism and Zionism?
It is simply not true that Zionists represent Jewery, not just untrue for Arabs to do this, but for any of us. Persians don't seem to do it. There are many Jews in Iran who have refused offers of relocation to Palestine.
To accept Zionist propaganda, translations etc. without question deprives many Jews of a voice.
If there are voices heard crying out such hatred for 'Jews', this is either a mistranslation or a sign of the success of such Zionist propaganda. That self-fulfilling justification for doing to others that wich they complain was done to them. £!
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This is not good news.....
http://www.ftadviser.com/InvestmentAdviser/Investments/AssetClass/FixedIncome/News/article/20091116/2b3338c2-d055-11de-8eea-00144f2af8e8/Jupiter-issues-gilts-warnings.jsp
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Good Morning Andrew,
I understand that Brown has given a speech where he is outlining a sort of withdrawal calendar for Afghanistan. I believe it is something called the 'Mansion House Speech'.
May I humbly suggest that any such speech should, no must, have been in parliament so that it could be recorded on a historical document which is Hansard, so that in future years there will a definite permanent record of what this so-called Prime Minister has said.
This is not good enough. We have occupied Afghanistan since 2001, of that there can be no argument. It was only during Panthers Claw that some of us actually began to ask the question what exactly has happened to all the Afghan police and soldiers we have allegedly already trained. This surely should have been the policy from the very beginning. These wasted lives and years only go to expose the complete lack of direction in Afghanistan. Why is Brown making this announcement when orders have gone in the purchase yet more helicipoters when Brown is now saying that he wants to hold a conference to get a withdrawal calendar together.
What he should be saying is that because we will be withdrawing no new orders for materials will be made. We will just slink away at the dead of night, just like we did in Basra, and leave others to clear up the mess.
Before we go however, there must be a parade of our soldiers through Kabul, a parade to show the Afghans that they now have control, that Quisling Karzai will have to sort it out. All of the deaths, all of the injuries, all of the assets have just been wasted. For absolutely nothing, nothing at all, except the name of a brave soldier on some war memorial somewhere, with a load of trees around them. That's where the money raised for our heroes will go, on a load of trees. Oh, and they had better make sure that they get the names right.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Re :385
I am amazed that you think 84% of the population of Britian is insignificant Anthony.
However the point I am and was making is that the Union WILL end. Despite ups and downs nationalist agendas ALWAYS win out. As for being powerless I dont want to prevent the other home nations building hopefully successful and prosperous countries for themselves. To coin of phrase "The best of British" to them.
I believe that outcome will be best for them and best for England. When they do England will need these insignificant symbols
I really dont see what your problem is the Scottish fly the Saltire and no one bats an eyelid same with the Welsh.
I dont see any reason the Enlish shouldnt do the same with St Georges Cross.
Depite your objections people in England are already taking matters into their own hands anyway and flying the English Flag. Neither you nor anyone else can put a stop to it. It would seem therefore that it is you that is powerless in that instance.
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Andrew,
I hope that others can take the time to listen to the speech given by Brown at the Mansion House. Nice to see him all taogged up with white tie. Whatever did happen to that arrogant little man who thought it a good idea when Chancellor not to conform. I think that he a horrible pathetic little man, that is what I think Brown is Brown is. Anyway I digress.
What has upset me most of all is that according to Brown, and I paraphrase, people who would sacrifice or diminish our influence cannot call themselves a patriot. How dare he pull the patriotic card. How dare he. I am so angry that I am struggling to hold my spelling together.
As soon as a politician pulls the patriot card you know that they have no arguments to support there actions. He has lost his moral compass and now has his moral imperatives, please Brown would not morals if they were a compass or an imperative.
Still at least he now quotes Palmerston rather than his dad!
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Andrew,
looks like the diversionary tactic has got the inquiry into Baha Mousa off the news. This will be just like the Dreyfus affair in France. Somebody will be the fall guy, hope that it goes right to the very top. Why do you think that so many leave the army and join the private firms now providing security, no rules to break, no Geneva Convention, no war, this is to keep terror on the streets of Afghanistan.
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Re :411
The question is:- What influence
We cant even have a policy on Iraq until Obama decides what he intends to do.
I doubt anything that Brown says will influence American National interest.
He lives in cloud cuckoo land.
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sa @ 410
"However the point I am and was making is that the Union WILL end. Despite ups and downs nationalist agendas ALWAYS win out"
see you're remaining resolute in not "predicting" English Independence
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Re :414
Inevitability isnt really a prediction is it now saga. Read the second line.
"Despite ups and downs nationalist agendas ALWAYS win out"
Something that is inevitable is impossible to avoid or prevent. A prediction by its nature is the opposite since if you could predict the future you could take steps to avoid it.
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406. Oudeis
Absolutely correct Ouds..
Jews and Zionists should not be conflated.
Amazing that in today's world there is a government who still believes a 'homeland' or 'bantustan' type policy is viable.
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Fubar_Saunders 407
What Central Banks do at the moment is probably more important than ever before. We have chosen to engage in quantitative easing. This is the last desperate fiscal policy of a Central Bank, after cutting interest rates to their lowest possible rate. Printing money is not understood very well by Central Banks or anyone else for that matter. Thus most people, if they have any sense would be very cynical about the eventual outcome. What is know is, that in Japan between 2001-2006 they engaged in this policy.
What was discovered from the Japan experience was that lending to the private sector actually went down despite quantatitive easing. Why was the question. The answer was that the banks held onto any money injected to recover their balance sheet as their need was greater than the customer because they were carying so much debt on the books. They had to recover capital. The other problem was the public was in no mood to borrow. Thus the policy did not work.
The actual secret of quantitative easing is to by-pass the banks and get the money to the wider economy. However our banks have never been forced to recognise and deal with their bad debts which is still within them, therefore we cannot by-pass the banks. Neither would the Government want to as it is helping them deal with Government debt. Cash machines if you like. We are at such a high level of stimulus now that it should be having an effect and what little shoots we have seen will be due to this massive amount of cash being injected.
However as soon as this method is withdrawn the economy will sink again.
Which brings us to the second problem in bad times companies and the public are reluctant to borrow particularly in Britain because of high personal debt, this in turn stops investment and spending and makes the problem still deeper.
What should have happened before this last fiscal tool was used was a plan to be put in place to cut spending. The banks to admit and deal with their debts under the guidance of the BOE. This of course would have caused much pain and have lost Labour a lot of votes. Until the banks recognise the extent of their losses and potential losses and have no more need to raise capital lending will be in short supply. Thus the economy will continue to sink.
It is expected that inflation will take off next year and fuel prices to increase thus further stalling our recovery. Along with this we will see tax rises cause a further set back to any recovery.
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sa @ 415
no you can't have that
offering a personal opinion that something is inevitable is the same as predicting it
otherwise you'd be saying that one can only "predict" something if one feels unsure it will happen
basic English ... the Native tongue of us proud Englishmen
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Andrew,
listened to the Miliband speech. Usual rhetoric, however can I start by saying that we are not at war in Afghanistan, they might like us to think we are, only we are not. This is an occupation, nothing other than when Germany defeated France in 1940, and occupied the country, creating Vichy France. Well we are exactly the same in Afghanistan. We occupy the country, only our equivalent of Vichy France, is Kabul. There are no allied soldiers in Kabul, and the area is run by the Quisling Karzai.
So, what are we do to. The answer would seem to be bribe the local rulers, the tribal leaders, the local government, with more money than the Taleban can use. The answer will be in dollar bills and gold. Buy the temptorary end to the insurgency, the fight for freedom, and then we can withdraw, and then you can sort it all out yourselves. We will maybe have a couple of bases from where we operate our Reapers and Predators, Drones, and we can really base the 'pilots' in the safety of the Nevada desert, or maybe Cheltenham, so that we kill anybody we don't like from the safety of a bunker.
Brown is saying he is spending billions on this 'war' soryy occupation and it is going into the pockets of corrupt officials, a corrupt government, and we are not only talking of a military surge, there is also the civilian surge, only they will need protecting, probably by the very same private contractors (mercenaries) now run by the retired generals, officers, and soldiers, who have followed orders in the first place.
Can anybody show me any documents where we have actually declared a war, I mean we have have a memorandum of understanding between ourselves and Afghanistan, now that would be an interesting document to read, but we are not at war.
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Andrew,
whilst watching Miliband giving his speech I thought the following. The delivery was appalling, he did not seem to have any confidence in what he was saying, constantly misreading his staement. Furthermore, I think there was a brilliant moment where he dropped his notes, and bent down to pick them up. I thought that somebody may well have thrown a shoe at him. Miliband, neither of them, are fit to take over from Brown. It will be Balls and Cooper, Harman may well as give up now.
I still am very concerned about what was said by Woolas and the comments, and I paraphrase, that this occupation of Afghanistan is not only about kee