Apocryphal, some might even say hysterical
Lord Stern, author of the 2006 Stern Report on the economics of dealing with global warming, tells The Times this morning that we should all become vegetarians because "meat is a wasteful use of water and creates a lot of greenhouse gasses." His pronouncement has already provoked hundreds of online comments on the Times' website, many of which take the line (I paraphrase): Hold on, this guy's an economist not a scientist or a nutrionist, so by what authority does he tell us to become vegetarian?
LORD STERN ON TUESDAY's TODAY PROGRAMME
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It's a fair question and I detect a growing disconnect between the global warming establishment and public opinion as the December summit on global warming in Copenhagen approaches. Fear that a suitable far-reaching post-Kyoto deal might not be reached has encouraged some to become ever more apocryphal, some might even say hysterical.
We've had the Prime Minister effectively saying there are only 50 days left to save the world, then several campaigners saying the polar ice could have melted in 20 years, now an economist urging us to become vegetarians for the sake of the planet. They may all be right, of course, but I sense the general public isn't buying it and if anything is becoming more sceptical about global warming (recent polls show that is certainly the case in America).
Part of the problem is that, as those worried about global warming become more apocalyptic, so the supposed scientific consensus about the matter begins to fray at the edges. Then there is the problem that global temperatures have actually been falling since 1998: I appreciate there are reasons for that which don't completely undermine the global warming case but when people in countries like Britain don't see much change in their own climate they do question why they all have to become vegans. And there is the simple populist resistance to rock stars and rock politicians who lecture the rest of us on the evil of low cost flying while circling the globe in their private jets.
The media also needs to become tougher in questioning what the experts tell us -- for example, there is much coverage of claims that the Arctic is melting, very little mention that Antarctica, which counts for 90% of the world's ice, has been cooling for the past three decades. And we need to be very wary indeed of events that are clearly stunts: there was much unquestioning coverage of the recent underwater meeting of the Maldives cabinet, meant to highlight the danger to the islands of rising sea levels, caused by global warming.
Hardly anybody bothered to ask the question: are the seas around the Maldives actually rising? The answer, from the world's greatest authority on the subject, the Commission on Sea Level Change, would seem to be no.
It has visited the Maldives regularly in recent years. Its studies show that sea levels today are about 20 centimetres LOWER than they were in the years below 1970, that the current lower level is stable and there is no sign the islands are about to be submerged. Didn't hear any of that amid all the breathless coverage and beautiful pictures. When the cries from lobby groups, politicians and vested interests become ever more strident and the stunts ever more eye-catching, it is time for the media to become ever more rigorous.
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I hope he keeps this up as it helps expose the nonesense of the ecofreaks. It's Climate Fools' day tomorrow, the anniversary of the signing of the foolish climate bill in the UK. There is a Conference tomorrow at Imperial College to challenge the nonesense of anthropogenic global warming, see www.WeatherAction.com. Greenpeace and other deluded supports of the AGW theory have been challenged to produce evidence for their case. None have accepted so far. All are welcome.
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To be honest this Global warming debate becomes more complicated everyday. I do not want rhetoric from people like Al Gore, who I would trust just about as far as I could throw him. I want proof of some kind, in the sense that all the scientists decide what should be done, not just the ones who are on the gravy train.
Furthermore I am sick of hearing from our Government on this issue, when I last looked Britain accounted for 2% of the Worlds polution. Far better for our Government to convince Countries like China and the US.
As usual Britain has to go sticking its nose in all over the place, shouting what we must do on climate change and the World must follow us because we say so. Brown has not been right about anything yet, so I doubt his 50 days to save the planet will cut much ice.
All this is about at the moment is tax collecting by Brown and as usual with unproven issues, the population will suffer for some theory.
I remember my Father telling me when he was a kid the scientists believed there was going to be another ice age. The truth is they do not know and until they do, it should remain as a do not know. I am sick of being told these things by Government. Who would trust them anyway, they always have other motives for everything they say.
In my humble opinion we should get to grips with all the problems around the World which are spoiling enviroments through bad decisions by Governments and business organisations including the World bank instead of lechuring us mere worker bees.
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I'm waiting for a scientist to make Broccoli and the rest of that family taste better. Why does the stuff that's good for you taste bad and the stuff that's bad for you taste good ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulforaphane
Also if a 6 watt LED lamp gives out as much lumens as a 60 watt incandescent and lasts for 25 yeas, yes I want them, but no way at 30 quid a time.
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I presume his remarks should be taken as a Stern Warning? First person to report him eating a steak in the HoW restaurant gets a tofu sandwich.
As a scientist, I am not (and never have been) convinced by the dire predictions of the Al Gore's and Lord Stern's of this world, but I am prepared to consider evidence on its merits. Meanwhile, we are apparently now less than 50 days from catastrophe. So, while our masters set out plans for slaughtering all the world's farm animals to persuade us to become vegetarians, I am going to go and make myself a large beef sandwich for lunch.
Wake me up when superGord has saved the planet. On second thoughts, don't bother.
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Perhaps as well as the media becoming tougher on what experts tell us ... experts should be tougher on what the media tell us about them. Has antartica been coooling for three decdes as ANdrew Neil Tells us ... the front page articel on the British antartic Survey website reveals a different picture..
"The satellite data reveal the variation in sea-ice cover around the entire Antarctic continent. Whilst there has been a small increase of sea ice during the autumn around the coast of East Antarctica, the largest changes are observed in West Antarctica. Sea ice has been lost to the west of the Antarctic Peninsula – a region that has warmed by almost 3°C in the past 50 years. Further west, sea-ice cover over the Ross Sea has increased....Whilst there has been a small increase of sea ice during the autumn around the coast of East Antarctica, the largest changes are observed in West Antarctica. Sea ice has been lost to the west of the Antarctic Peninsula – a region that has warmed by almost 3°C in the past 50 years. Further west, sea-ice cover over the Ross Sea has increased."
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Science is organized scepticism,not disorganized hysteria,it proceeds by trial and error to a settled consensus which persists until modified or rejected by new evidence.
The present consensus endorses the view the world is becoming warmer. The counter-instances cited by AN, or members of the know-nothing brigade, are compatible with a global trend towards a warmer earth which is bound to be multifactorial in its incidence and distribution.
The use of counter-instances to discredit a paradigm, for which there is considerable affirmative evidence, only convinces the naive who think scientific `proof`is a matter of certainty.
All theoretical positions in the history of science, including Maxwell,Faraday,Newton and Einstein have counter- instances. When anomolies accumulate there is a search for a new paradigm. This is the way science develops.Not by certainty but trial and error.
If we you want certainty go to church.
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3 Streetphotobeing
I have to confess I could no longer stand the dull light of the current energy saving bulbs and have reverted to tungsten. Oh the difference.
I reckon those dull bulbs have a depressing effect.
I am now buying stocks of "old" bulbs anywhere I can.
Not green maybe but bright without a doubt.
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Andrew – when is some organisation of the status of the BBC or The Sun going to expose the scandal that was the UN’s IPCC process that lead up to Kyoto ? The scandal is not limited to, but is best illustrated by, the Mann hockey stick. The American Statistical Society – the professional body the their mathematical statisticians – stated that it was “fundamentally flawed”. In the restrained language of scientific professional bodies, this is damning. Surely, in any rational world, you call a time out and ask what went wrong with the process ? If you look into it (and I am a PhD physicist) you unearth some every serious issues indeed. But no, the AGW juggernaut was let to carry on its way – leading to the hysteria that you are reporting.
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Greater rigour from the media? Couldn't agree more. However, as long as the vast majority of journalists continue to have virtually no scientific background, and so long as the scientist-media interfaces continue think they need clever sound bites to catch popular science attention (Newscientist cover articles are always a good example of this sensationalism), then the status quo is unlikely to change. If the journalists themselves don't have the background to (if not fully then at least) reasonably understand the concepts, then we have little hope of the complete picture ever making it into the mainstream.
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If efficiency were the God we all worship then why doesn't he demolish Stonehenge and demolish Buckingham Palace ? Let's scrap Formula ! Grand Prix. No. Let's scrap all racing, whether by internal combustion engine, horse or even human. It's all a pointless waste of human resources.
It's the eugenics syndrome. Make a somewhat dubious and contentious logical point and then fashion the world to meet the bizarre conclusion.
Humans can't eat grass. In many parts of the world the only crop, or least unreliable crop that can be grown, is grass. Lord Stern is effectively recommending the extermination of many nomadic peoples, and world starvation, but heck, what's dead bodies when your green credentials are at stake.
I see such claims as no more credible than those of Pol Pot, and actually there is a chilling similarity. I might have more sympathy for the climate change clique if it didn't attract so many freaks.
I have one simple challenge. Make the taxpayer funded meals at the Houses of Parliament and Strasbourg all vegetarian, then I'll know this fool not just another bureaucrat applying for a post on the eco gravy train (oops - no gravy for him).
The more supporters like that Gordon has, the more ridiculous he looks, if that's possible.
Why should all these things be taxed ? If they'e destroying the environment, make them illegal, just about everything else is, or is the purpose to reserve them for the well paid ? If the contention is justified then ban it completely. Why should people be allowed to destroy the environment based on their ability to pay. The concept of being able to pay your way out of responsibility is an immoral feudal concept. If it's bad - ban it, totally completely and without exception.
A land of peasant subsistence farmers - starvation, squalor and death. What Pol Pot couldn't achieve, Lord Stern can.
Just becasue you can make a logical point, even one that makes sense, it doesn't make it a template to use to design the future of planet Earth. As a sick person I use resources but contribute little, environmentally or in any other form. On that basis, should I and others like me be terminated ? Don't all rush to answer, but on that basis, hospitals and hospices are a waste of resources. Where do you draw the line ?
No wonder Obama's not going to Copenhagen. He's a politician, not a comedian.
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Good afternoon each & Andrew.
Veg=bad taste, meat=good taste?
At the bottom of all that is 'mob-rule'. This is where the greatest fellow feeling comes to light.
I am not a scienist but...
Why are we charged the highest rate for the power we all MUST use and get power for luxury at a cheaper rate?
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Did anyone else just see Yasmin Alibhai-Brown? Did anyone else notice the quite deliberate peddling of a myth?
So the British were asked if they wanted to join the EU were they Yasmin.
You wont mind explaining when that question was put to the people of Britian will you.
The truth is the British have NEVER been asked do they want to join the EU they were however asked did they want to join the Common. One might suggest you get your facts right.
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Get well soon Anita you have charm and articulate well. What a creep I am.
Nos 7
The higher output LED's as far as I know are not on the market so I cant really remark on the quality of light but it is continuous light meaning that it doesn't flicker with the AC current also dimable.
You can get the fluorescent type low energy lamps in a colour temperature closer to daylight which is about 6500k - its a whiter light. But as you might expect they are more expensive about 5 - 8 GBP I have two, one 15 watt and one 20 watt I need to use them doing photo inkjet printing work to evaluate any colour cast in the print. They definitely look brighter.
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#10 GomerPyle
You must know a great deal about Pol-Pot (noodles).
Let us keep on keeping on. Why is it, how can it be, that anything that mankind comes up with has a down side?
If it was not for all those people who have gone before us we would be choked by trees and knee deep in Dodos and could walk to an empty America across the backs of wales.
To ignore climate is to deny that we (mankind) rule the world.
Perhaps for you the true ruler of the planet is away so we can do all and anything we please.
Yum-yum, bitter almonds. Cyanide is good for you?
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So I guess that these puppies that Gordon was going to save from drowning are going to end up getting put down anyway, as dangerous methane emitters.
I can't wait to see that advert. Just when I managed to stop the kids crying, it'll probably put them in traume to discover their ultimate fate.
Cartoon politics for the ignorant masses.
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Nos 12 - Yasmin Alibhai-Brown - heard her say 'you treated them like dogs' and then Andrew put a stop to it and the subject was changed but I was at my pc doing work and didn't get the context - why did she say that ?
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IMHO the global warming lobby have taken toataly the wrong track.
Do I agree with the extent of man-made globalwarming? Do I think that even the most stringent (end expensive) of laws in the UK will make a difference on a world scale? No, so I'm hostile to all the dictacts that come from it.
But if they had promoted it as reducing polution for a cleaner environment, reducing energy and natrual resource consumption to prolong stocks and increase renewable (and in the long-term cheaper) and sustainable sources then I would have been supportive.
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It is more likely that the Maldives are rising as the islands were created as a result of volcanic eruption. There is also a lot more going in the world that we do not notice such as the tectonic plates shifting which will also cause much displacement of water.
But the real truth is that we have tons of data available now, a lot less 30 years ago and precious little pre WW2. The data measurements of today will be very accurate and of yesteryear very much Heath Robinson. And we are trying to reach firm conclusions from time analysis with questionable data quality?
As you say Andrew, a lot more hot air is being generated by the political elite than we the rest of the human race. The passive role of the media on this and various other subjects is quite sickening. Indeed your old newspaper (The Sunday Times) is a pale shadow of what it was under your editorialship.
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RE :16
She was telling the former Australian Prime Minister that Australia treated immigrants like dogs.
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I have a question? When I went to school I was taught in science that any body placed in water displaces its own weight. Admittedly that was a long time ago lol.
Since the North Pole is solid ice and floats in water I assume it must do the same. If it displaces its own weight why would the fact that it melts raise sea levels at all?
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#20
So true.
Yet, if this ice melts what is stop other, land based, ice from melting?
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Re :21
I hear the planet is a finely balanced system. If Andrew is right and the South Pole is actually getting colder is it not possible it is doing so in compensation for the warming at the North Pole?
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18. excellentcatblogger
Although it's been 9 years since I last visited the Maldives, at the time the local owner of the resort I stayed in said that the appearance of new little islands was a regular occurrence. I stood on one, roughly 30 yards across with the tide out, surrounded by the vast blue green ocean. Absolutely amazing. So I'm puzzled as to where the 'sinking' theory comes from... unless the trend has since reversed dramatically or perhaps the Maldivian government are trying to lure tourists over before they allegedly 'disappear'.
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"I have to confess I could no longer stand the dull light of the current energy saving bulbs and have reverted to tungsten. Oh the difference.
I reckon those dull bulbs have a depressing effect."
Tungsten bulbs are not white but a low colour temperature dull orange that our eyes find it difficult to adjust to I find the low energy ones look brighter being green light which is a higher colour temperature and closer to the blue light our eyes are used to. The Wattage doesn't represent brightness unless you are comparing like with like. two tungsten bulbs 60 and 100 or two energy savers 11watts and 20watts. The low energy produce the same amount of light they just don't produce heat. I suggest trying one next to a room with the tungsten bulb. Or try Halogens which work with dimmers etc.
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Flatulent cows aren't the problem.
Human beings are the problem. Produce a baby and you're condemning the planet to death. It is therefore logical that you pay a levy to gain permission to produce a child. There may be those who can't, or don't want to produce children, so maybe a market in permissions could be formed. Unfortunately the poor don't get to reproduce, but who thinks that's wrong ?
Maybe if you plant 100 trees or have a windmill in your back garden you can earn credits towards having a child.
I've found a purpose in life - a comedian, based purely on the sage words of Lord Stern. If I had to make a choice between Lord Stern and a flatulent cow, I know my preference.
Let the peasants eat lobster. They aren't flatulent are they ? The lobsters I mean, not the peasants.
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23 theblamegame
I do not know where the sinking theory came from. I suspect that it is one of the unchallenged assertions that Andrew mentioned, and a docile media takes it as gospel. When it comes down to it, we actually know very little about the sea and more pertinently the oceans. And as to going to the bottom of the ocean floor in the deepest ocean trench that is still in the realm of sci-fi.
Recent studies have concluded that in the Atlantic and Pacific in a rolling swell every so often there will be a monster wave in deep water (not a tsunami caused by earthquake action) that is thought to explain unexplained ships sinking without trace. I wonder if low lying islands could as a combination of high tide and bigger waves give the appearance of water levels rising. Of course underwater volcanic activity will end up displacing lots of water as well.
Politicising science could well be profitable for some but also dangerous for humankind. We ought to be concentrating on lowering excessive pollution levels around the world. In Cubatao a Brazilian industrial complex with iron, petrochemical and oil industries the pollution levels are such that pools of water are yellow with excess sulphur and some babies have been born with hideous deformities. Acting against that kind of thing is positive rather than the alarmist hyperbole, that Brown spouts "50 days to save the world".
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# Gomer
Want to bet that Saga won't see the joke?!
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24 dhwilkinson
You obviously know something on the subject . I can only go on the evidence of my eyes and similar evidence from others who find the energy savers dim in comparisson to tungsten. I know it is an orange light from tungsten coz it gives photos taken without flash a nice cozy glow but I have never seen it as orange, it doesnt reflect(refract?) orange on white paper you hold.
I agree the low energy run much cooler but dispute the light output. I have a 3 bulb fitting in my lounge and three 11 watts give nothing like the illumination of three 60 watts tungsten and it is instant light. I have used the discarded bulbs in bedrooms and hallways and there is no doubt these places are now dimmer. Perhaps I should try 20 watts where I used 60 ?
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#22 superAngry
Why not.
Let us say that our world is self correcting. That there IS a god.
Men are as but foolish children, ho ho ho.
For IF we ever gained adulthood that would be boring. All that self-denial and stuff. We are but babes in a garden, where one corner is for wet-play another for dry.
"Skippity, skip, skippity skip. Hoppity hop....la-la-la-lala...."
Why not a free-for-all, devil take the hind-most?
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xTunbridge 28
Well I am not having any of the bl**dy things in my house. I refuse to have some Government telling me what light I can have.
I went out and bought as many old bulbs as I could before this nonsense came in.
The next thing we will find out is the energy savers are bad for our health, as with everything else that is untested by this Government. I suppose it will be like the Swine flu vaccine which is untested and we get a different one to every other Country, probably because it was cheaper, it will most likely start knocking a few people off in the near future.
I am literally fed up with Government passing all sorts of legislation taking away choice on a whim.
It makes more sense for people to be more careful about switching off lights when they are not needed.
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# 27
Don't disturb me when I'm forming a new political order Andy-in-France
The fundamental principle is that doing something morally and fundamentally damaging to society and the planet is okay, as long as you pay for it. Just to cope with the super rich, you enable them to actually pay to exercise their gluttony to its full potential.
You take it a step further and create a market in it. Rather like buying absolution from the Pope, or perhaps Tony Blair even. If the peasants appear to be over indulging, a light touch on the markets and put them all back on the streets where they belong.
Perhaps we could re-formulate English law on that basis. Pay your way out of crime if you can pay the price. Don't let's get side-tracked on the al_Megrahi issue again, but as a feasability project it worked is all I'll say.
I don't know why the planet isn't covered in electic cars. I keep seeing them on Top Gear, though after a long scree about their benefits, the drawback is left to the end - it's half the size of the Starship Enterprise, or the batteries have to be disposed of as if they're nuclear waste. Don't sell me an electric car until you can sell it to MP's. Their consumer tastes are reputed to be finely honed on taxpayer gratuities.
Vegetarianism is wonderful - as long as you remember to take all the food supplements you'll need. You can't argue with evolution and being a vegetarian isn't a bowl of cherries, or maybe it is, but you'll need assistance from the chemical industry to stay healthy.
The application of market forces to moral obligations. How more Socialist can you get ? not.
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RE : 29
There isnt a god? Its news to me but that is a debate for another time.
Actually I was referring to the research of James Lovelock and his Gaia Theory.
You should read up on it if you havent already it fascinating stuff.
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#32 superAngry
Gaia? Oh, I have heard of her.
I marvel at there being any diety that does not require tribute, but I am sure her priests shall.
Or maybe they already do.
GomerPyle.
Rely on chemistry. Moi?
Growth hormones,
Antibiotics,
Steroids. etc.
More the fare of the omnivore.
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An interesting article in 'The New Scientist' from some time back titled 'The hidden cost of wind turbines' highlighted that the installation of windmills for the provision of electricity, was being done in a way which not only released more carbon into the atmosphere than their installation would ever recoup, but they were also damaging the environment. The fact that they embarked on such a course of action, doesn't fill me with much confidence that these people have much of a clue what they're talking about.
I hate to throw a spanner in the 'flatulent cows' postulation but isn't grass a plant too ? It can't be all bad news, 'cause we all know grass is green. It's not just a case of bad evil cows trying to destroy the planet, there is a balance, which is often sadly lacking when it comes to eco prophets. How do we harvest these wonderful green crops ? Usually with a combine harvester larger than a Centurion tank. Unless we go back to using Shire horses. Heck - more flatulent animals.
I think we can safely label Lord Stern a 'flat(ulent) earther' and leave him to play the fool with Gordon in Copenhagen.
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30 Croftie
Ah well, if you break one there is a complicated procedure involving letting the dust settle wearing a mask and vaccuuming carefully etc and not disposing of the debris, or a whole dud light, in the dustbin, mercury in them or something.
Some are reporting increased migranes since going over to the new lights.
I know they dont work as well because I also use a computer at a friends house and I have a devil of a job seeing the keyboard, trendy black with silver letters etc. I could suddenly see it. She had reverted to a 60watt "old" bulb instead of the 11 watt new.
You can still buy "old stock" quite legally and I am doing .
I thought gas lights were great until we got electric. In fact the light from the new bulbs is about as good as that from an old gas mantle.
Theres progress for you.
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#34 GomerPyle.
Poilticians are not interested in the rights and wrongs of climate change. It ticks ALL the boxes.
It's right,
It's wrong,
It's a problem, "we are the solution."
Never fear while we, (Gordon etc.) is here.
What is even better is this problem, if it is a problem will be with us always.
Wars are so not the (only) way to get something that all agree or/and disagree with.
What with all the hot air the questions alone produce the answers will ever be just out of reach...and it's a Global problem.
There IS a god. A politician's god, anyway.
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Which country does Lord Stern live in? There is no shortage of water in northern and western Britain. The problem on most British farms is getting rid of the water. If cattle do consume nine times more water than plants (I don't understand this as all the water ends up in the rivers) then that is for the better. Is Lord Stern proposing ploughing up the upland areas of Britain? If so, the thin soils would soon be eroded away. Grazing (or forestry) is the only use for much of the land in western and northern Briain, unless Lord Stern is proposing that humans eat grass. I thought that the problem was that lamb is not popular enough, and hill farmers are unable to gain a economic price for their lambs and sheep.
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50 days left to save the world?
Fire Gordon Brown, that should do the trick
So ta ta to Sooty
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28 xtunbridge
"... I can only go on the evidence of my eyes and similar evidence from others who find the energy savers dim in comparisson to tungsten."
I can't really argue with that.
Just had a look around and apparently the comparison on the box which says 'replacement for', Aren't very accurate. 11Watts=40Watts, 15W=60W 20W=75W and 29W=100W. So 20Ws will work being equivalent of 75Watts. Or you could go for halogens which are not as energy efficient more expensive and don't last as long but they may be better for you. Or stick to tungsten.
Here is a comparison chart.
Lumens(brightness) chart
I still think the higher colour temperature makes them look brighter.
Also Don't use low energy bulbs in reading lamps as they produce Ultra violet light.
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#37 geoscientist
The time spent on coming up with that name might have been better spent looking at an Atlas.
Unless a geoscientist studdies things called George?
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Another interesting problem with wind generated power.
"For all their environmental appeal, wind turbines have few fans in the military or among air traffic controllers."
Apparently many projects are currently held up, not by NIMBY's but, by airport objections due to the confusion caused on radar screens by the swinging turbine blades.
It is believed that a solution is close to being perfected. Until it is, any significant wind generated energy is just a dream.
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#41 GomerPyle
"few fans", How droll.
The only way out of all of this is to put nuclear waste on the moon.
1999 and all that?
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# 42
I can't claim credit Oudels, they are the words of the New Scientist, would you believe ?
If scientists are sceptical, is it only wood elves, Gordon and our friend Lord Voldemort who have these crazy ideas.
What about grain ? If the hay isn't going to be fed to flatulating animals, how is that going to be disposed of. If it's decomposed, we're back to the methane problem. Does hay then become the new nuclear waste ? Make Panama hats compulsory ?
It's the rebirth of alchemy. The mystical search for a life form that doesn't produce waste. Try fungus ?
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It shouldnt do, to be honest. I remember the same problem years ago with things like mountains. They're known as permanent echos. They dont go anywhere and the radar signal just bounces off it and goes back to the antenna. When it doesnt move, doesnt change height, its obvious what it is.
And these days with digital radar technology they can isolate it and filter it out so it doesnt distract the operators. Certainly the on land ones anyway.
I can see it potentially being a bit more of an issue off shore, but you just make sure aircraft are routed around an offshore windfarm rather than directly over the top of it. No big deal. Depends on how far offshore you put them as well. Bearing in mind the curvature of the earth as well and most land based radars cant see over the horizon, certainly not the air traffic ones anyway.
They might make a bit of a noise about low flying enemy aircraft coming through them, hiding in the returns, but thats disengenious. They've already acknowledged theres no credible direct air threat against the UK, which is why they've run down the UK air defences as much as they have done, despite buying billions of pounds worth of shiny pointy Eurofighters. Hmm. And any 9/11 type attack is hardly going to aim for a windfarm, is it?
And anyway. The Yanks are starting to use GPS or a derivative of it for Air traffic control, so chances are, next generation "radar" is going to be completely different and far less susceptible to this kind of permanent echo. By the time the wind farms are up and running, it will have ceased to have been a technological issue.
I have no idea why they're being so obstinate about it. Makes them look extremely silly.
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37 Geoscientist
On the lamb thing. Do you know if farmers in certain parts of the country are still being paid to raise sheep that are unfit for consumption due to the radioactivity in the grazing ?
I have in the back of my mind Cumbria and possibly Chernobyl fallout.
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39 dhwilkinson
Thanks for the chart.
I will give 20watts a try and ignore the eventual disposal probs as they do last longer than the old bulbs.
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Stern's explanation of his predicted 4 to 6 deg C rise in temp in the next 100 years was simplistic. All climate scientists accept that CO2 is a greenhouse gas. However it's the amplification of the heating caused by CO2 by water vapour which is the main cause of the dispute amongst climate scientists. Hence for a long time now Professor Lindzen of MIT has calculated a much smaller amplification effect from an increase in CO2. At the end of the day it's the actual data which will determine who is right.
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Saga
My worries about you are confirmed.
I have just read your post 100 in the other place and you have lost it.
You correctly state all the reasons why Tony Blair was/is a disaster.
You detail the consequences of his disastrous "rule". Including the ruination of the Labour party. Oh what a frank admission from yourself.
You then give him total absolution because he was running the hi jacked Labour Party when they won a joust with the Tories in 1997!!!!!!!!!!
Sir, my friend, just read your own words. You absolve the man who more than anything else has destroyed the country and the Party you hold dear
because he managed to put himself in a position to do all his destroying!
I dont know about you , but I need a stiff drink to take the absurdity of your logic in.
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The real problem is the population explosion in the Third World. This is certainly not a myth and is causing untold environmental damage to our planet and yet world leaders are not concerned about this very real problem.
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You have to be careful with saying such global warming sceptical things
You may become the quarry of the attack dogs that do not truck debate
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As it`s fast approaching bonfire night in the UK(where traditionally rubbish is burned on a bonfire)I would like to suggest to those in lofty place with titles bestowed on them, who would advocate that previous treaties signed with regards to Europe cannot be revoked,to let me have all of them,and on that night they will see the plain truth-
they can!
What a load of waffle is talked about this ragged bunch of nations(many whom we saved during the last war)-this alliance will end up in another massive quarell-let`s hope that this time we are not involved and have to make similar sacrifices again!
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Good Morning Andrew,
at last some rational thinking. I noticed your questioning last week of some expert or other. Taking scientific advice. Who are these scientists. What do you have to do to become a scientist, what exactly is science in weather, or climate. You can write a computer programme which models an event. You mean just like the computer scientists who wrote models for banks to be profitable in their dealing rooms.
When we have a scientist on our screens can we have details of their qualifications which justify themselves being called a scientist. I for example have an Open University and a certificate which shows that I have been awarded a Batchelor of Science (Open). Can I now call myself a scientist?
Maybe the sea levels are changing because the way that the sea levels are measured have changed. How can we be sure that the measuring instruments have not been incorrectly calibrated, that on the day the measurement was taken the wind was blowing, or that it was high tide, or an especially low tide. How do I know that I can trust people who actually profit from being nothing other than weather forecasters!
There is money to be made in all this global warmimg lark, travel the world, attend a conference, save the world in fifty days. Why is Brown actually going with his entourage to Copenhagen, especially with a failing Obama not being there. I suppose it will be on a wednesday so that we don't have Brown at PMQs. Sorry Mr Speaker, the PM is saving the world.
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Andrew,
I hope that Anita is feeling better today. I hope that as much publicity is given to the report on the appalling situation which was allowed to develope in respect of our fleet of Nimrod aircraft. The Kelly report seems to have been leaked, why? What else is happening today which needs to have the British publics attention diverted from.
No doubt at PMQs we will have Brown starting by giving us what he doing today, but before I tell you here is the name of the dead soldier who was killed in Afghanistan, and who has given his life to keep terror off our streets. Now I have meetings with other ministerial colleagues as well as various other meetings.
One meeting will be with the Queen where I will try to explain how it will come to pass that she will no longer have meetings with me but she will have to greet one of her subjects, namely that awful man Blair, as a Head of State, namely the President of Europe. Not only is Blair a Scot, he is also a catholic and I find it difficult to understand how a catholic could be the President of Europe if he was to seriously follow the teachings of a church where the head is infallible. What laws could he influence, a committee to ban abortion, how could he chair that! A committee to investigate the part which a EU country played in a war of aggression, extra-ordinary rendition, enhanced interrogation techniques, a European army, navy and air-force.
Who would give the orders. This is just unbelievable.
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Good morning each & Andrew.
xT; You had a good day yesterday and are on the way to a settled lighting future. hip-hip. (well done you DnW)
#49 busby2 [I like how you have shortened it from 'busybody'?;-)]
The third-world high birth rate is countered, to a great degree, by attrition.
Blaming them and or making life tougher for them will only increase the birth rate.
It is a universal truth that if anybody feels that their problems are caused by other people they must still look to thereselves for the solution. The self is all that one has any control over.
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The new low energy lamps -
LED - light emitting diodes - do not FLICKER, are DIMABLE, long lived - 25 years they say, initial cost - HIGH
For those who want in depth info -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light-emitting_diode
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/6422926/New-low-energy-light-bulb-works-with-dimmer-switches---but-costs-30.html
Older low energy lamps - Fluorescent ( flicker problem, possible migraine problem, tiny amount of mercury)
Fluorescent in depth info -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescent_lamp
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Andrew
I see you are in trouble over your comments on This Week about biscuits. The subject was of course related to Gordon Brown and his indecision over what biscuits he liked. I want you to know when you made those comments I thought nothing of them and nor did most sensible people. This is the PC brigade gone mad again and is the sort of nonsense which makes disillusioned voters vote for the BNP a subject we have covered in great detail.
As the remark was finely balanced between a comment about black and white people I cannot for the life of me understand why people have taken offence.
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I agree with post 17 if anyone one in government was worried about global warming climate change etc , i would be more impressed if they turned out all advertising lights around the world im sure that in itself would reduce the climate at once, and of course the offices left blazing with lights all night !! is anyone in there ?
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I wonder how many other banks were involved in marketing derivative based security as secure investments ?
Regulation ? I can't see that there was any, bearing in mind that the likes of Madoff and Stanton flourished during the same period.
Either I possess an intellect beyond comprehension, or our banks and regulators are both incompetent and put profits ahead of prudence and honesty.
Inevitably financial institutions are deeply involved in climate change hysteria, as they're going to be behind much of the investment governments require, so I'd consider that a high degree of scepticism should be employed when looking at any proposals. They have a bad record when is comes to assessing risk and providing bogus figures, or should I say that they possess the necessary expertise.
I visited the COP website - that's what they call the Copenhagen climate change extravaganza, or what I call the Carbon Burning Fest. One page details 10 myths about climate change, with the intention of debunking heretics. Amazingly, it debunked itself. It started off with the myth that solar power was inefficient and answered that, in the future they would be, and continued in the same vein, debunking itself.
One point I'm still trying to comprehend is why it chose to prove that organic farming was inefficient. Perhaps they ran out of things to debunk.
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Where there can be little doubt that humans are affecting the planet, quite frankly we are still a blip on the historical radar.
Whereas of course Gordon Brown is an hysterical blip on the political radar.
The world is going through a warming phase and has been for the last 100,000 years, even though there have been cyclical changes during that period it is not exclusively the result of human interference.
It is, however, true that the climate could change quickly and dramatically sometime soon - we know this because it has happened in the past.
Here' the truth - yes climate will change. We don't know how or when but many speculate.
It is also a great way to control opinion and lifestyle through fear.
With regard to these idiots with their spouted philosophy on becoming vegetarians I would remind them that we also produce guffing quantities of methane and should there be a climate catastrophe, mobile food sources would be the most effective way of producing food.
Maybe Lord Stern could keep his ignorant mouth shut and thereby reduce the amount of CO2 he is expelling into the atmosphere.
Stop worrying about climate change because it will do what it wants with or without our intervention.
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55. At 10:08am on 28 Oct 2009, streetphotobeing wrote:
The new low energy lamps -
LED - light emitting diodes - do not FLICKER, are DIMABLE, long lived - 25 years they say, initial cost - HIGH
===================================
If our esteemed political elite had our best interests at heart, a rebate would be offered on LEDs whereby if it stopped working after say 5 years we would get 80 percent of our money back as their advertised life expectancy is 25 years. But the odious elite only want to fleece us at every opportunity to finance their gravy train.
Can't see this catchiong on.
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Andrew,
so bits of the Kelly report are being leaked, by whom and why. Can we therefore also take it that Kelly will also be announcing that somehow the MPs are going to be compensated by having an increase in their salary. Not all at once but gradually of course.
As for some of them they must never go the House of lords when they resign or are booted out by the electorate. It is bad enough having the former Speaker going to the Lords, disgraceful.
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I really don't know what all the fuss is about the low energy bulbs, I changed all mine years ago. The shade diffuses the light and I have not noticed any flicker, if you want a brighter light just use a higher wattage.
LED lights may well be the next step forward and with time the costs will drop, but in fairness to the manufacturers, if the bulbs last anywhere near the 25 years they are going to have to recoup their costs upfront.
You don't have the continual hassle of changing bulbs and resetting the trip on the mains every time a conventional bulb blows and they save money to boot.
No brainer as far as I am concerned.
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Is it any coincidence that our children are made dimmer as are our lightbulbs?
Is someone trying to keep us in the dark?
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sc @ 56
This is the PC brigade gone mad again and is the sort of nonsense which makes disillusioned voters vote for the BNP
oh god; I'm trying my level best to stay away from this blog and then my favourite girl puts up something like this
and of course you're right again, Susan ... this sort of "storm in a coffee cup" fuss about a biscuit remark is exactly the sort of thing to drive a person into voting for a racist party looking to racialise the whole of our national life and take us back to the dark ages
you do it deliberately, don't you honey?
you know, just to torture me
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Brown/President Blair and a few more of their cronies would have us believe they care for the Environment.
If they are as keen as they purport why don't they do something to avert an Environmental CATASTOPHE which WILL happen on the Chad/Cameroon Pipeline which has been operating in a legal void for 7years and is expected to continue in such a sate for the next 30-40 years.
This catastrophe will be tenfold the size of the Exxonvaldeez.
Why don't they do something about the appalling safety record of a well known British Petroleum Oil Company.
Oil is the BIGGEST danger to the environment not fart---- COWS.
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Just incase you missed this under last topic??!!
Good news on my Indutrial Tribunal (IT)
I undertook a teleconference yesterday with the IT and my former employer (Respondent) and they tried to get my case kicked into touch by arguing my WHISTLBLOWER claims were outside the IT time limit of 3 months because they made me redundant on Jan 18/09 despite paying me a full wage on gardening leave until June 09.
I argued that my P45 said my leaving date was June 30th 09 and the IT accepted this and has given me a full hearing in April next year.
Small victory but nevertheless a victory.
I also learnt yesterday that my former employer oder book were bulging at £14billion pounds. Make me wonder why they made guys redundant then??
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Afghanistan ? - catastrophe.
The most grotesque example of government incompetence which is causing the death of our soldiers. Whilst helicopters might mitigate the risk of IED's, the risk is that one insurgent bullet can bring down a multi million pound machine and create a massive death toll.
Never ever will the Afghan army be able to handle the security of the country. Karzai is not a uniting figure and will only exist in power with the backing of warlords who have more powerful militia at their disposal, and who may, or may not have Taliban affiliation or sympathies.
To suit our purposes we have imposed an alien political structure on a culture and society that operates entirely differently, and will continue to operate as it always has, with our structures existing like a cowboy hat on a penguin. I imagine that the Afghan people want to see the end of elections due to the increased insurgent activity it creates, and which ISAF can do little to suppress.
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eXmO,
Good to 'see' you and well done on the IT front too.
You may know these folk...
http://www.name-n-shame.co.uk/index.htm
More power to your elbow!
[apologies for being a little off topic]
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62 Coats
I think I started this. The problem may be solved by as you say using higher wattage bulbs.
I stupidly believed the conversion figures put out when these bulbs came out. So I now have a load of the new 11 watt bulbs which were supposed to replace the old 60 watt and in fact give as much light as a glow worm .
Disposal aside I agree with all the other advantages you list.
If the higher watts dont do the trick I shall be back!
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64 Saga
Hob nobbing with Croftie then are we ?
Where is my one line misquote reply to my 48 to you then ?
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61. At 11:27am on 28 Oct 2009, T A Griffin (TAG) wrote:
Andrew,
so bits of the Kelly report are being leaked, by whom and why. Can we therefore also take it that Kelly will also be announcing that somehow the MPs are going to be compensated by having an increase in their salary. Not all at once but gradually of course.
As for some of them they must never go the House of lords when they resign or are booted out by the electorate. It is bad enough having the former Speaker going to the Lords, disgraceful.
============================================
Funnily enough Guido Fawkes on the Order Order site urged Sir Christopher Kelly to do precisely this a couple of weeks ago - leak in advance of the report so as to avoid being "filkined".
Definition of 'to filkin': Dismiss from employment the Parliamentary Standards Commissioner for doing too good a job.
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68 Oudeis
It was worth looking at that link just for the Churchill quote at the end of their home page.
"many men stumble across the truth but most manage to pick themselves up and continue as if nothing had happened."
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Lord Stern seems to have a childishly simple view of the effects of CO2, insisting that all extra in the atmosphere was our doing, and ignoring the interchange with the oceans, where most of it lives. Warm the oceans, and they release more of it (which is why you keep champagne in the fridge) so the cause and effect may well be the other way round.
The government's latest attempt to bring us all to heel with an advertisement designed to upset children (turn the lights off or the dog gets it) only shows that they've lost the argument. If it really was that simple, we wouldn't need persuading...
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xTunbridge 70
Actually Tunbridge there something much more illuminating in that post at 100 than at first sight if you looked for it. Saga told us that he lived with his mother, in this post he tells us about the birth of his children. Therefore is Sagamix more than one person.
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74 Croftie
Yes I did see that and thought it was an odd bit of the human touch amongst the rest.
But that was just overtaken by his denouncing of everything Labour and then letting them off .
Two people,? Ive been saying that for a while, EHs twin.
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xTunbridge 75
No, I mean you do not usually live with you mum if you have a partner and children do you.
So maybe two people are writting under the same name. It would account for the erratic behaviour.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8329583.stm
elsewhere on the BBC
Mission creep?
...and not even to be debated, just pushed through on a statutory instrument
Will it make it easier to seize the assets of this labour administration when they are removed from power and prosecuted?
Will our debt be paid by the seizure of Bliar's assets?
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#76 Susan
Actually very common in the asian community who have greater family values than the "indigenous" population - maybe we could learn something?
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Care should be taken, here and there that one is not perceived as protesting too much.
That there is a strength in numbers is perhaps why tennis shoes come in pairs?
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Ref 68 Oudeis
Thanks for the link Oudeis and that group are new to me but I have contacted them already from your source.
Thanks for the few words of encouragment ref the IT and the pres boys are showing interest.
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The MOD have taken another bashing today ref the nimrod. It beggars belief they are not sued for culpable manslaughter.
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Mick Clapham MP has submitted an Early Day Motion in the House of Commons - if enough MPs sign up for it, there is a chance that it will get discussed in the Commons. It may notsay everything we are after but the key to this is to get a debate.
Please Circulate this e-mail and encourage everyone to check if their MP has signed up yet and if not then lobby them to do so.
http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDetails.aspx?EDMID=39324&SESSION=899
EDM 2093
BLACKLISTING RUINS LIVES
19.10.2009
Clapham, Michael
That this House is most concerned to learn that blacklisting of trade unionists is an activity that still continues and welcomes the publication of the report, Ruined Lives prepared by Professor Keith Ewing for the Union of Construction, Allied Trades and Technicians and which will be launched on 20 October 2009; and argues that the scope of the new regulations should be wider than outlawing blacklisting for trade union activities and that injustice should be a compensatable offence.
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78 Coats
It is a big maybe my friend.
Many honour killings are put down to the daughter in laws dsisatisfaction at becoming ma in laws slave.
If you mean care and respect for elders I am with you but there are some worrying angles on "extended families".
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meninwhitecoats 78
I know that coats but Saga is not an Asian, because he has discribed himself, and he told us he was single living with his mum. When I said I thought he was married with about 10 kids.
It would be nice to have the luxury of being able to live with our parents and look after them, some of us have to move away for work. Most people I work with regret the choice of having to leave their families for work, I know I do, but some people are not prepared to live on benefits because there is no work available.
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79 Oudeis.
Dont all shoes ? Bought a girls a pair of boots once as a present. Idiot shop assistant put two left feet in the box. Can still see her now , swapping them from foot to foot and they wouldnt fit any way. Was I in trouble.
Read somewhere that we all have a doppelganger, is that the word?
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xTunbridge 85
Trust you to get it wrong. I suppose ever afterwards you were looking for a girl with two left feet to fit them boots.
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86 Croftie.
Oh was I in trouble. I mean why should I have checked what was in the box?
Your idea is perfect for the panto season. Brought a variation on Cinders glass slipper to mind.
You aint got two left feet by any chance?
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I think a mood change is overwhelming US opinion, and they are falling into line with UK opinion. When I say UK, I mean everyone in the UK but Gordon and his hapless government - wrong on Afghanistan, wrong on immigration, wrong on banks, wrong on MP expenses, and much much more.
A State Department official in Afghanistan has resigned over US policy. He had military experience and couldn't fathom the logic behind ISAF tactics.
Accusations that Karzai's brother is on the payroll of the CIA are not new, and taken as fact by Afghans, but the worry is that his alleged drug trafficking is in fact supporting the Taliban. In effect this would allegedly make the Afghan war little more than a Karzai family business enterprise, and a very remunerative one too.
This is from a Time magazine news article
"....a drug trade that has skyrocketed from 185 metric tons of heroin produced in 2001 to more than 6,000 metric tons this year, according to the U.N. Office on Drugs and Crime"
The new idea is to pay the Taliban to swap sides. Anyone see any holes in that idea ? I suppose there's a limit on how much you can make from the drugs trade alone, and you have to grow poppies too.
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78 Coats
Yes I forgot the high profile court case a liitle while ago where two daughters were suing for a share of the family Curry Empire.
An Asian family made good but only the sons were to benefit.
Different families differnt values I suppose. To blend the best of both would be an impossible dream.
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xT
It was the notion of 'strength' that made me cite tennis shoes.
"Just think, darling, you will get two right shoes for your birthday." ?
#88 GomerPyle
From Thatcher, through Bliar to Brown. Their words are nothing but aspirational. They govern not at all, they are responsible not at all and their ideas are but wishes.
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I think the public are being to catch on to the climate change scam.
Leaving aside the lack of firm evidence, and the gagging of any expert with a contrary opinion, all the main supporters of the climate change lobby have a vestige interest.
The politicians : It is an easy means to raise taxes and it diverts attention from more pressing issues.
Many scientists would be without finacial support and publicity.
Liberal Intellectuals would lack a cause and a purpose in life.
I fear that on top of a grave finacial crisis that is going to leave working class people struggling for the rest of their lives, the Middle Class Climate Change Crowd is going to turn the clock back to the stone age.
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The Nimrod report is the most devastating attack on the Ministry of Defence and the defence industry in living memory.
The families of the 14 servicemen who lost their lives when Nimrod XV230 burst into flames and crashed in Afghanistan on September 2 2006 now know that the accident occurred because of years of complacency, safety reviews that were riddled with errors and a general lack of care towards the personnel who had to fly the aircraft in a dangerous environment.
It is highly unusual for an MoD-commissioned report, or any government report, to name and shame the individuals perceived to be most responsible for the culture of failure - a situation that was allowed to continue for years.
Charles Haddon-Cave, QC, lists the senior people he feels were most culpable - in the RAF, in the MoD’s procurement organisation, in BAE Systems which was responsible for carrying out a safety review of the Nimrod surveillance aircraft, and QinetiQ which had an advisory role.
Related Links
Ministers abandon £20m cuts to Territorial Army
Ainsworth's assurance over 'safe' Nimrod
MoD admits Nimrod was 'unairworthy'
Had those tasked with ensuring the airworthiness of Nimrod fulfilled their responsibilities with proper duty of care and professionalism, Mr Haddon-Cave is convinced the catastrophic fire on board XV230 would never have occurred.
There can be no greater indictment of the MoD and BAE Systems than that.
For the families it is also a conclusion which will add immeasurably to their grief.
The report is so damning of the whole attitude towards air safety - it blames the MoD for putting business and finances before aircraft airworthiness - that it seems inconceivable that its publication will not lead to resignations.
The Nimrod story has provided an alarming insight into the way business is done in the MoD, where the search for cuts and restructuring - because of pressures on the defence budget, largely when Gordon Brown was Chancellor - led to a disregard for the safety of members of the Armed Forces.
Senior military officers have been warning for some years that the military covenant - under which the people of this country and the Government of the day take care of the Armed Forces in return for the sacrifices they make on their behalf - has been approaching breakdown.
The Nimrod report is an example of where the military covenant was trampled on.
Fourteen men died because an aircraft was allowed to take off in the knowledge that there were potential catastrophic design failures and no one did anything about it.
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Yur are spot on about the exaggerated coverage putting people off. The moment the message becomes hyped people turn off and it becomes easier to shoot the message down. I recently went to a climate change seminar for business, and you couldnt get away from it their either, all graphs that turn red as they get higher. An the statement that everyone will starve and flood.
We should not be wasteful, we should try to make greener energy. But suggesting to rich americans (and the almost as rich british) that people will starve in africa or drown in the maldives really only gets new age people going. And this is all about getting the masses doing positive things. A much better argument was the "buy smaller cars because oil will run out and we'll be living without cars or plastics". At least that affected everyone.
Then we should trust climate change scientists? Not saying the earth is not warming on average, perhaps it is, perhaps its man made. But how can you trust people that get their grant to wander around on a ship somewhere doing their research (which is their living) on the basis of grants pushed by public hype. Or those that are paid to discredit it by the oil companies.
Scientists should not be in the business of doing sound bites of how the world is going to end. They should be providing their data, suggesting where their data may be prone to error, and presenting their hypothesis for pier review.
While people stop wind turbines from being erected within view of their house while taking their hemp bag shopping so they can feel they are doing their bit...there is a big lesson that this kind of change towards greener energy really has to come from the government. But then the MPs want to get elected, and their voters dont want that wind turbine.
So whats the solution? More plastic bag free schemes to make people feel they are doing their bit, and keep quiet about the wind turbines and severn barrage project.
Perhaps after the election the new PM will have the guts to implement some of these serious power schemes, after all we want the bankers to be rewarded on long term not short term gains...so could we expect our politicians to take the same view..........
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Oudeis 90
You smoothie.
Why dint I think of that. Dunno if it would have helped tho.
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There is a product being developed from a garlic type base that controls animal feedstock to reduce methane. Developed in Wales
www.neembiotech.com/
I would suggest adding to HoC canteen menu to stop BS coming from Nu-lab.
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All.
Since I began my VFO4OM 'campaign', all the arguements I thought I might use have been done for me. In the way we see little by little how little they do for we--the--people.
I am having trouble keeping-up with wave after wave of stories of incompetent Government.
I shall keep on keeping on however.
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sc @ 74
"Therefore is Sagamix more than one person?"
I'm whatever you want me to be, Susan ... you know that
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I know some of the regular readers will be interested in this article which is from the World Bank website and includes the INELIGBLE CONTRACTORS LIST which shows all the contractors,whom,have been kicked off the World Bank Tender list for fraud and corruption.
It the link doesn't work just do a search on the the subject of WORLD BANK INELIGIBLE CONTRACTORS LIST. What is interesting in this list is the absence of a few well known contractors, whom have been idicted for fraud and NOT kicked off from the WB and not one single oil company either??
Call me sceptic if you will????
http://web.worldbank.org/external/default/main?theSitePK=84266&contentMDK=64069844&menuPK=116730&pagePK=64148989&piPK=64148984
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92#
I read it this afternoon Exxon, it makes damning reading. Lets put it this way.. from reading some of the aviation forums, I think some of the families were worried that it was going to be another whitewash.
Well, from what I've read it isnt. The indictments in particular against BAe and the Nimrod IPT are shocking but unfortunately to anyone who has worked in the IPT/Contractor model, not a great surprise. The fact that the catalogue of errors, the lack of leadership at star officer level, which I've highlighted before and the cosyness between the IPT's and the suppliers, whilst all the time the supplier is yanking their chain have been going on since this particular model was introduced following the 1998 SDR.
What Haddon-Cave has basically said apart from the covenant being broken is that all this change for changes sake, with the implicit changes being to deliver value and savings (which they havent done) is that the whole idea was a hash and because it has resulted in comprimises to things like flight safety that maybe, just maybe the old way was better.
The finger gets pointed all the way up to 4 star level. Now, I havent read the original McKinsey report yet, on which the IPT model was based, but I'll dig it out. What wouldnt surprise me is if a) its another cherry picked, half-assed implementation and b) if a few heads were to roll about this. A very bad day for the RAF, but its the product of the way its been going since the mid 1990s.
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Andy
Sanity at last - what a great blog about climate change.
The whole bl**dy government should resign over the Nimrod crash.
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Ref 99 Fubar Saunders
Yes FS, I think heads will roll on this one and no before time. MOD procurement STINKS, as does the leadership at Government level.
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Attn Ben Bradshaw
Dear Ben
I do hope you enjoyed your extended summer break of 82 days and I thought I would let you settle down into your routine before reminding you of a few outstanding items which you have promised to look into, they are:
1. My allegations that the 6 PFI schools in Exeter are unfit for purpose and illegal..
2. The Email ban imposed upon me by the HSE,Devon County and Exeter City Council.
3. The Chad Cameroon Pipeline , which ,as you are aware has been operating in a legal void for nearly 7 years now.
4. The continuance of contaminated cement in the South West being procured for Capital Funded Projects.
You have promised me to sitdown and discuss these matters in your surgery and I free to meet you at your convenience.
with thanks
Best regards
Exxonmobil2
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Could one of the blogs Banking experts answer these questions for me.
Why does the RBS continue to fund the Chad/Cameroon Pipeline CCP when the world bank have washed their hands on the pipeline.
Why are UK taxpayers being used to fund the CCP.
Does the RBS have no legal obligation to see the CCP meets its legal requirements,eg Oil Spill Plans and Environmental Protection.
Come on you bankers, I look forward to your answers and off course the Electric Hermit aka as Osama and Mr Angry
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A poster some time back pointed out that our aircraft carriers were being built in the same mould as the Nimrod - that is, unfit for purpose.
If we can't afford them - don't build them, and stop getting involved in wars we can't afford.
I'm not against war, but I'm against ones engaged in for no good reason and which our armed forces are required to fight with equipment procured with reckless incompetence.
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45 xTonbridge
Radioactive Lambs
Movement restrictions on sheep are still in force in parts of Cumbria, and will remain in force for at least ten years. Measurements of radioactivity of beasts in slaughterhouses ended about six years. The number of beasts slaughtered for being radioactive was small, as it was found that it was only necessary to move the lambs to the valley bottoms for a few weeks before normal slaughter date for the radioactivity to be carried out of the bodies. For further details see
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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Lord Stern and eating grass
For a discussion on whether mankind could eat grass rather than lamb chops see the blog to the Times article to the Stern report.
Geoscientist
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Andrew,
I have been watching Channel 4 news with regard to the Nimrod 'crash'.
All those named should be sacked with no compensation. Those already retired should have their pensions withdrawn with immediate effect. If they don't like it, tough, they like so many others with regard to Aghanistan, and Iraq, have blood on their hands.
There is a company in this country who have had charges dropped against them in respect of bribery and corruption in Saudi arabia. The same company is anmed and shamed in the report about the Nimrod crash. It is time that national security was not used as an excuse to cover up what has been going on. The ones who are named must face a trial. If they havce failed in their duty to protect our servicemen and women then they are guilty. Stop shilly shallying around. My son has an injunction against him for trying to speak the truth, how many othyers are being silenced for because of fear. It is time to clear out the stables, I was close to tears as the realisation that some people will do anything for money, money makes pimps and whores of us all, it also makes some people killers. Sue me and be damned. Brown and Blair are just as guilty as any employee or minister.
I dare you, sue me, go on and face your day in court you, at this point I would a couple if not three profanities, but I won't but I know what I am thinking, you ....... .....
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# 103
I can't give a reason XO, though would feel sure that they wouldn't do so without some form of guarantee from some source.
Is this relevant ?
http://www.britannica.com/bps/additionalcontent/18/35581043/CHINA-AS-A-CREDITOR-A-RISING-FINANCIAL-POWER
"Beijing also made itself available as an alternative source of capital for Chad, weakening the position of the World Bank in its negotiations over the use of funds for the Chad-Cameroon pipeline project."
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RE :107
If there was any decency left in this Govt they would resign en masse
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The arguments about the arguments. The planet is not in very good shape. Those who feel there should be some even distribution of the impacts of climate change or some linear graph to follow, miss the point. There are identified areas, Greenland, Arctic Ice,more violent storms in the Pacific, etc., that clearly show that a change is in the process. Unfortunately, we are relying on governments to address this matter and after the financial collapse, there is little reason to trust your government. A public call before a crisis is not unusual and that it is ignored by governments is also not unusual. The only things that governments have done is encourage better use of energy, less waste, more efficiency and the usual abdication of responsibility. An end to the use of fossil fuels has many advantages, many associated with the protection of the natural environment. The world is full of abandoned industrial sites reaking with chemicals and deadly toxins that have been left for the public to pay for and suffer the serious health related conditions and deaths. The move toward clean energy will be beneficial in many ways. This will certainly give an economic boost worldwide as the transition takes place and create many jobs. Disengagement from the Middle East and the radical politics of that area will also be a benefit. As coal and oil and their paid for elected obstructionist do all they can to minimize any movement away from fossil fuels the negative impacts on public health, Northward movement of vector borne diseases and rapidly reducing water supplies continue. Argue all you want about the causes but it is the abuse of environmental systems that will come home to roost and all the deniers will do what has been done for the financial crisis, keep the same people in charge, figure out a way to make money on the desperation of others and make sure no one is held accountable for the decisions that lead to the crisis. Just a simple breakdown of the chemicals in the air daily from power generation and transportation indicates that maybe we should come up with a better way. There is a reason the price of oil is rising and it is a warning to those meeting in Copenhagen that oil companies have no interest in change and will damage economies if necessary. They are pirates with no national interest, it would do everyone well if they were treated as such. They will turn the crank on the organs and the monkies will dance.
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#99 Fubar
The excellent Alistair Stewart on the ITV Evening News tore the hapless Bob Ainsworth a new one in an interview with him.
Most gratifying to watch the little worm splutter and squirm.
Catch it if you can.
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107 TAG
The root cause here if you read the report through, was the failures of individuals and organisations as you say and they should pay in some form or other and the edict from the MOD of 20% cut in costs, which it is believed to have come from UK treasury with one lamentable GB as chancellor divvying out the beans. He should hang his head in shame as he single-handedly as done more to undermine the Forces of this country by penny pinching (latest TA cuts, helos etc)than any enemy combatant.
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111#
None of the iPlayer type things work over here in Belgium mate, otherwise I would.
In this one particular case, I do feel the slightest, weakest, teensiest twinge of sympathy for 'Elicopter Bob. This has been boiling away for a couple of years and the seeds were sown for it back in the 1990's. By military officers (one of whom is the current Cheif Of The Defence Staff and is mentioned in passing as one of those responsible for implementing the change system following the 98 McKinsey report, but not named, when he held the post of Assistant Chief Of The Air Staff) as well as politicians.
But the twinge soon goes away, after a few seconds. I think I mentioned it elsewhere, but anyone who has worked in defence contracting over the last ten years would be able to tell you that the whole model, whilst it seems good from a consultancy/theoretical point of view, in practise because a lot of the civil service arent trained to the level they need to be and their staff churn rate is so high, plus the military that are left are so stretched, so they cant give it proper supervision, plus the defence suppliers are masters of pulling the wool over the IPT's eyes and getting very cosy with them, whilst taking the p*** in terms of what they charge for their services - its a recipe for disaster, which is why things havent got any better. This is probably one of the few incidents where because of failures at that kind of level (as against buying the wrong kit for the wrong job, thats a separate manner), that it has cost innocent people their lives in an avoidable incident.
It reflects badly on the MOD - overstretched, lack of leadership, empire building, pension chasing, out of their depth in command positions; it reflects extremely badly on BAe - culture of denial, obstruction, lying to the customer, empire building; it reflects badly on Qinetiq as well, out of their depth, trying too hard to score new business and not being thorough enough... I'm amazed it hasnt happened before now. Its been on the cards for years. Have a look at pprune.org, the pilots rumour network. They've been lamenting the attitudes towards flight safety for years. This is the nadir.
And yet. The IPT Team Leader who was central to the screw ups has been promoted to Air Commodore. He now holds star rank. The Air Chief Marshall who was appointed as Chief of DLO admitted he was out of his depth. If he's retired, chances are its on full pension. BAe? Well, less said the better. If it were down to me, I wouldnt buy a bag of bolts from them ever again. They've spent the last 10-15 years acting in such an unethical manner providing substandard kit at overinflated prices years late. I'd kick them out of any future contracts if at all possible and buy from the Yanks instead, off the shelf. Not bloody good enough.
And yet... how many billions worth of contracts do we have with BAe, still?
What the report says to me above all the rest is that all those changes following the McKinsey report and the SDR in 1998 havent worked and if anything have made things worse. And, in the meantime, with all the outsourcing, the expertise and the dedication we had from having people in uniform has completely gone.
The officers responsible for implementing it are directly culpable. The politicians who cherrypicked the elements of McKinsey they wanted to implement and then oversaw the half-arsed implementation are directly culpable. The current PM because of his tenure at the treasury when all this was going on between 1998 and 2004 is directly culpable.
No rewards for failure, eh?
I personally hope that there is a strong enough legal position for the families to sue the officers and politicians and contractors responsible personally. Make them pay for their loss.
107#
TAG, you need to cool down mate, or you'll do yourself in, stress is a killer. I'm ex service myself, so I empathise with how you feel. Dont get mad, get even.
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Just seen the drowning puppy "Act on CO2" advert on the TV.
Goebbels lives!!!!!!!!!!
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Is it true Gordon said that he didn't care how many puppies he drowned to get the advert right ?
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Andrew,
who was responsible for funding the MoD during the period covering the shamed Nimrod 'accident'. Brown has more blood on his hands. he funded the Afghanistan occupation. He funded the war against Iraq, he funded the occupation of Iraq. He buys off terrorists, he funds a peace settlement in Ireland, he funds buying off insurgents in Iraq, he funds through Overseas Development all sorts of actions which many regard as being illegal. Brown, the man with a moral compass, is probably the most immoral one of the whole of this discredited government.
I actually feel sorry for Ainsworth, he is the one who has been handed the poisoned challice. Look at his predessors, they are the guilty ones, and watch what happened to their careers. One of them seems to have done very well in the property market, another recently resigned and is already feathering his bed. Another allows Harry to go to Afghanistan to do bad things to bad people. Then they find the time to go to the High Court and spend millions on taking out an injunction preventing my son from speaking out in public. Shame on them, shame on them all, they have blood on their hands, and tainted gold in thgeir pockets.
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I've been trying to find out how people measure the sea level. How does it work?
I gather (scientific papers) that England continues to fall into the sea, while Scotland rises, as a result of the geological pressures still being released after the Ice sheets disappeared.
Tectonic plates still carry on doing what they always done and shift about, meaning some bits get higher, some slip down.
So how do you measure "absolute" global sea level?
And how do you measure "absolute" global temperature? Or variations?
I can't find any record of accurate thermometers being placed at regular 1 mile (or 1 km) distances across the globe (land and more importantly sea) over the last hundred years. Maybe it's secret information.
I don't distrust scientists.
I distrust "science" that is based on extrapolations from highly variable sources which is pushed through computer models.
Models are extremely useful. Used by engineering companies all the time. But the ones that work best are those that can be rapidly checked and adjusted, because the actual outcome doesn't match the projected output.
I'm very concerned that we are being sold a "climate" line based on models that are (at least some significant ones) not freely available in the public domain.
I can't spot where the information showed that temperature rise was followed by CO2 increases somehow switched to CO2 being a driver of temperature rises. How does that work?
Stern did an economist's thing. So what? I rather think he delivered some decent advice to Brown when he worked for the Treasury. I do think he tried to analyse the potential economic impacts in a readable way.
I'm just wary. How many economists predicted that Dubai would be broke today?
I can't see where models to predict economic outcome reflect the fact that humans do daft things.
I'm not sure I believe models that appear to assume that some blokes or blokesses have factored in what "Nature" can do.
Cut pollution? Yep. Use energy better? Yep. Find better energy sources? Yep.
I don't understand this light-bulb nonsense. Normally, you use a light when it's dark. Not a lot in the summer. Bit more in the winter. So old style bulbs gave off heat - fairly useful in the winter? So which idiots decided we couldn't have cheap bulbs that work?
Now we have to buy bulbs with a mercury content. Mercury is not a nice thing to inhale if a bulb breaks. I have no idea which bin I'm allowed to put them in when they fail earlier than anticipated.
Is my local council tip equiped to deal with them? No idea. If my old Mum doesn't drive, how should she dispose of them?
It's getting madder by the day.
Sadly, I have nothing against "concensual science", but distrust it when it's funded by governments. Just as I disliked "socially related science" funded by the tobacco or oil industries.
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By the way. I still don't get Brown's constant positing of the idea that "He/we made the right decision".
It was apparently the "right decision" to restore the funding for TA training.
So how was it "The right decision" to cut it just a couple of months previously?
Seriously flawed man in a badly scarred government.
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Perhaps Lord Stern would make more informed comments if he made use of Google.
The Joint FAO/IAEA Programme, who have impeccable credentials, say
"Since 1999 atmospheric methane concentrations have leveled off while the world population of ruminants has increased at an accelerated rate.....These changes in methane atmospheric dynamics have raised questions about the relative importance of ruminant livestock in global methane accounting and the value of pursuing means of further suppressing methane production from ruminants."
.... and they have the data too.
Of course Lord Stern has chosen to omit that rice cultivation is also included as a significant methane emitter. Is third world starvation being proposed ?
Climate change will be taken more seriously when the proposers stick to scientific fact and drop the glossy commercials and doom filled warnings.
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Climate change = biggest con in modern society = increase in taxes + G20 allowed to make global policies
Definitely skeptical!
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fom @ 117
"It's getting madder by the day"
and not just "it" Fairly ... you too!
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Ref 116 TA Griffin
You are right Taggy and he ALSO funded the Chad/Cameroon Pipeline Projects during his tenure at #11 Downing Street. The World Bank have since run away but the EIB &RBS still fund and support it.
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Ref 107 TA Griffin
Go Taggy go,giveem hell meboy.I agree with you 100%
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If Blaire gets the EU Presidency,he will need to do a LOT of flying around the World.May I therefore suggest his Airforce 1 plane be a NIMROD.
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RE :124
I hear the Conservatives have said they would view Blair as President as an act of agression.
They are only half right in my view it should be seen as an act of agression against England.
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The irony of the Labour MP who whined that MP's had been promised a vote on the recommendations of the Kelly report was delicious, when he discovered that no vote was planned. Voters empathise with you.
The reaction of MP's spouses was equally amusing, especially when they tried to state that is was an affront to women's rights. Clearly they hadn't realised that Jacqui Smith employed her husband, and I've no doubt that that situation isn't unique.
Perhaps Parliament could privatise them for greater efficiency.
The major problem with Gordon's vision for climate change modified Britain is that very little will happen without private funding and, so far, most companies don't see any profit in it. Most major projects have stalled as companies aren't prepared to make major investments with little chance of a return on capital, and that goes for nuclear power too. The economy is so sick, the situation is unlikely to change.
Having read what Gordon's 'wind guru' says about the future prospects for wind generated power, Gordon has already forayed well into the realms of fantasy with his promises. I'm not totally against pollution reduction, energy saving and alternative power, but Gordon risks turning the whole issue into a farce with his hysterical claims and promises.
Undoubtedly Gordon would prefer to switch voter attention away from his personally generated economic disaster, to one where he can represent himself as the world savious and leader - again. Unnfortunately that's too much like those old Music Hall acts where you know the jokes already and laugh in sympathy.
I also read somewhere that grassland can be more effective than forest at taking CO2 out of the environment. Ploughing it up to plant potatoes would have a negative effect. I think we should be wary of climate warming fascists who seek to impose a solution on us, when there isn't a problem.
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Can anyone explain why Tony McNulty has onely been required to repay only £13,000 when it is reported that he claimed £72,500 ?
The Daily Telegraph states "it emerged that his parents were living full time in his taxpayer-funded second home."
When he already has a property in Hammersmith, surely there's no reason for him to claim anything in respect of any other property. There isn't any justification for wriggle room or coming to any other conclusion that the FULL amount should be repaid.
If those reponsible for making decisions still show partiality, then it's clear that their office should be scrapped and some other independent arbiter appointed. It's apparent that the system remains tainted and will not regain trust if it forgives abuse so easily.
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Good afternoon each & Andrew.
#127 GomerPyle
Too true. What if he is beaten at the next election. Might the new parliament take the rest from his redundancy money?
An election pledge in the waiting?
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Good afternoon Andrew,
hearing that a substantial number of guards in Baghdad, Iraq, have been arrested on the gounds of complicity in the explosions which devasted so many lives earlier this week.
If Iraq is an indication of how well we have trained their security forces, I do not hold out much hope for the events which will invariably occur, and have occurred, in Afghanistan over the next weeks, months, and years.
I think I was the first to ask what part the Afghan forces were taking in Panthers Claw, well how many of our soldiers will be threatened and lost during the presidential election re-run. Even one is too many, I want to know how many Afghan security forces were lost in battle during the first election, and I want to be kept up to date as to how many are actually going to be used to protect the electorate in the November elections.
Whilst Brown is in Copenhagen, as Prime Minister and not as Head of State, maybe he would like to think how many lives are being lost in a wasteful occupation in Afghanistan, it is not a war, it really is not, it an occupation, question anybody who dislikes this term to answer the question, has war been declared on Afghanistan. When was war declared on afghanistan, go on tell me, because the rules change if you are at war, they change quite damatrically. We are not at war with Pakistan, we are assisting the government in a civil war. Imagine the implications for Britons of Pakistani origin if it really deteriorates over there, don't worry about the nuclear problem, think what would happen in Britain. That is if you are allowed to.
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Saying that Tony McNulty has been disciplined by the 'sleaze watchdog' is rather misleading. It was in fact "The Committee on Standards and Privileges" which is a group of senior MPs.
Isn't this where it all went wrong in the first place ?
How often do they wish to prove to us that MP's and Parliament are untrustworthy ? ....... and they haven't even started on house flipping.
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129. At 1:33pm on 29 Oct 2009, T A Griffin (TAG) wrote:
Good afternoon Andrew,
hearing that a substantial number of guards in Baghdad, Iraq, have been arrested on the gounds of complicity in the explosions which devasted so many lives earlier this week.
If Iraq is an indication of how well we have trained their security forces, I do not hold out much hope for the events which will invariably occur, and have occurred, in Afghanistan over the next weeks, months, and years.
=============================================
In Iraq I am not sure if it is a question of how ell trained their security services are, but more of their fundamental loyalty. Loyalty to whom to be more precise. The bombs two days ago were reported in the west as more evidence of the need to keep up the fight against Al Queda which is what we the sheeple must hear.
Yet I am unconvinced as few westerners are injured or killed (and there are a lot of them in iraqa btw). They would like us out but both sides would prefer we rebuilt the country first, but the war has now become a civil war between the Shia Muslims and Saddam's Baathist political party. Ocaasionally the Kurds stir the pot up north, but the main area of conflict is Baghdad and Basra.
In Afghanistan the loyalty question raised it's spectre two weeks ago when an Afghan policeman accompanying a US Army patrol on the spur of the moment shot two US soldiers dead. The precise circumstances of what happened as far as I am aware have not been revealed, and as regards of what the sheeple might hear and digest, from the pro war politicos point of view is best hushed up.
Michael Yon made an interesting observation last week (he is still not embedded with any ISAF unit btw - good way to keep him quiet!) that the Afghan people view the west with suspicion as we do not build permamnent barracks for our troops. They view people living in tents as nomads, here today and gone tomorrow. It is this lack of trust in our troops staying to finish the job, that make them curry favour with the local Taleban.
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...What better way to show the populations in turmoil at present just what a joy Democracy is than that we show them how it is possible to overcome all obstacles.
Lets vote out ALL the MPs and their partys from the House of Commons at the next election.
Let us show the world that with Democracy anything is possible.
We should look upon this as our solemn duty,nay, happy duty. Let us sacrifice our wastrel politicoes on the altar of common purpose.
Brothers and sisters of the world unite, we have nothing to lose but our drains! [drains on the public purse that is]
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I have asked Mr Ben Bradshaw to be a witness at my forthcoming Industrial Tribunal which should be interesting because I have delegated him as a Prescribed Person on my Whistleblowing of Health and safety violations by my former employer.
I have a feeling he might ignore me though.
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There should be a public inquiry into corrupt practices in the UK construction industry, workplace rights campaigners have said.
A packed 6 October meeting at the House of Commons heard the inquiry demand endorsed unanimously by MPs, leading human rights academics, barristers and blacklisted building workers.
The meeting was called by the Blacklist Support Group to discuss the recently exposed covert illegal blacklisting of trade unionists by major UK building firms. Ian Kerr of the Consulting Association (and formerly the Economic League) was fined £5,000 for his role in the blacklisting of trade unionists. So far, however, the 44 major construction firms have incurred no penalty or sanction.
Addressing the meeting, John McDonnell MP told the blacklisted workers: “This is one of the worst ever cases of organised abuses of human rights in the UK. I fully support your campaign for justice and I will be raising the issue of a public enquiry in parliament. There is already considerable support in the house.”
Keith Ewing, professor of public law at King’s College London, was highly critical of a the government’s proposed law to address blacklisting. “What is needed is an absolute legal tight not be be blacklisted, firm sanction against companies supplying information to the blacklist and financial compensation for every individual on the blacklist,” he told the meeting. “The proposed regulations as put out to consultation by BIS are so full of holes that they are hardly worth the paper they are printed on.”
Colin Trousdale, a blacklisted electrician from Manchester, said: “This is not something that went on in the past: the blacklist is still being used today. I am not interested in the money, I am interested in getting back to work. I am interested in justice.”
The Blacklist Support Group says it will continue its “campaign for justice for the blacklisted building workers by supporting the legal claims against the 44 major contractors, lobbying MPs for firm action and encouraging all 3,000 workers on the database to contact the Information Commissioner’s Office and access their own file.”
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#131
Surely part of the training of any police or military force in a democracy should be an oath of allegiance to the democratically elected government. If we have failed to instil this into the training of any of the countries we have occupied then that to me anyway is absolute proof as to the failure of not only their politicians but ours as well.
However, all that the Taleban have to do is to play the comments by McNulty and they will say is this the sort of government you want us to have. We should follow your mother of all parliaments. Every Wednesday your Prime Minister stands at the despatch box and tells you that your soldiers have died to keep terror off the streets of Britain and that their sacrifice is worthwhile.
I would tend to disagree. The Queen must never make her speach in November, it will tarnish her as well as the whole of parliament. It is time to dissolve this pathetic parliament. Was not the inquiry into the Nimrod crash enough evidence, how much more do you need. In the next year my government will ...!
I have to ask when will the easter break for parliament be next year, and when will Darling give his pre-budget report, autumn statement, or whatever they call it nowadays. No more 'boom and bust' we are now a steady as she goes Titanic economy, sorry misheard you, Dynamic economy, oh yeah, whatever.
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I notice that Obama went to meet and salute the returning coffins of fallen US soldiers the other day. Something George Bush never did, so due credit to Obama and a clear notice to everyone that he knows and accepts responsibility. I also noted that one of his opponents made the outrageous claim that delaying sending MORE troops was costing the lives of soldiers.
This war has nothing to do with Afghanistan. It's all about Pakistan, and it always was, but who is going to admit something like that ? None of the compulsive liars in our government.
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#136
Have you heard of something called the "weekend Taleban"?
Apparently some men who work for Karzai's government during the week in the cities, return to the home villages at the weekend and join up with the local Taleban. A bit like the Territorial Army I suppose - I think I saw an article about this on Michael Yon's website.
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The Standard says that Nadine Dorries has received damages from Damian McBride over Smeargate
I come top the BBC for confirmation and nothing...I dare not put it on Nick's blog in case it is ruled off topic
Do you have the answer Andrew?
Not got the "This Week" email yet either...maybe the show is a biscuit short of a full box
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#139
The story is here too...
http://www.politics.co.uk/news/legal-and-constitutional/smeargate-damages-for-dorries-and-watson-$1337551.htm
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#139
BBC has an article in the Politics section about this story. But the photo of Nadine is very unflattering - a quick search on Google shows that she is a handsome woman. Does the BBC have some kind of subliminal message here?
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#141
BBC storyline...18.21
Mine 18.06
It has been in the blogosphere since 11.59 (Guido)
The BBC was probably too busy with the "elect TB" campaign
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@137 Gomer
I agree it was good to see - he of course does not feel the same sense of responsibility for the situation as Bush.
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Re: Andrews remark about "a growing disconnect between the global warming establishment and public opinion"
Yup!
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the big scandal is the carbon market which is due to become the biggest market in the world and is a tax on mere existence. what's more the private firms who are part of the ecx exchange are due to become the richest people in the world as everyone else is forced to pay them for buying carbon indulgences.
the carbon tax is the closest anyone has come to taxing air. yet its all kept quiet.
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I like this piece of Blair for EU president campaign
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/6456693/British-Legion-poster-defaced-to-attack-Tony-Blair.html
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Like most things Gordon does, it's all become rather cringeworthy.
A competition for a post that hasn't even been formed, trying to usurp the will of Europe by proposing someone who hasn't signalled any willingness to do it, mostly because he will want to do the 'Oh gosh - I never thought I was being considered'.
I doubt that Gordon has the complexity of mind to be counter-intuitive enough to pull off an attempt to dash Tony's chances, but he's doing a fine job, nonetheless.
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@117 measuring sea-level.
The same problem exists for measuring CO2 in the atmosphere. CO2 is a gas which diffuses into the atmosphere but it must always be unevenly distributed at any point in time. Some places will have a slightly higher concentration, eg over cities. Some places will be slightly lower, eg over the Rain Forest. But the winds and swirling currents in the atmosphere constantly churn it about. So how at any point in time do you measure the accurate concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere? And how then do you take a comparable reading some time later even from the same place? Its a bit like trying to measure how many clouds there are except that the 'clouds' are invisible. And the concentration is TINY - 300 or so parts per million - so that small errors in measurement massively impact the results. The same issue impacts all CO2 measurements, whether gas or secondary sources such as ice cores or tree rings.
Like all religions, the more closely you scrutinise GW the less it stands up, until all you are left with is faith, ie unquestioning belief....
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Andrew,
there are some out there who are saying that we mustn't stop now in respect of reflating the economy. That we are getting so close to coming to the end of the recession that to stop now is incomprehensible, or plain stupid.
May I say when these people are on our screens, as experts, or celebrities, look at thier clothing, look at their suits and expensive shirts, and well groomed hair. Their problem is that at the moment the sfirst great depression of the twenty first century are terrified, they are scared, because if things don't get better soon, they will be joining the rest of us. They are not being effected by the global depression, they are scared though that they will soon be.
For example, listened to Question Time with Sargeant of the not great dancing.
All these people, no, must keep going forward, keep up the advance, we're on the verge of victory, one final push, lions led by donkeys all over again, just listen and watch, they are running scared, MPs will be given a massive increase in their salary after Kelly. VAT will still go up after December, what difference will it make. All prices will go up again, all that computer changing, all the labels being printed, the tills changed.
When a commentator comes on ask them, what's your salary, how much do you earn, what's your actual job, what do you do, and then when they answer just laugh, experts, they didn't see 9/11, they didn't say 7/7, they didn't see 9/15, they see nothing, absolute waste of space the lot of them. As for pearl Harbor, who brought the world suicide bombers, nobody but the Japanese, with their Kamakazi pilots. Or even our soldiers in World War I who just went over the top, to certain death at the machine guns. At least a modern day suicide bomber takes some of the occupiers with them.
It is time to raise taxes, to cut public spending, to let asset values fall. They used to say that the Ottoman Empire was the sick man of Europe, no feminism here I'm afraid, well we are. We are trying to defray all of our debts for our children and grandchildren to pay off. Well no more.
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145 Bookhimdanno
I read recently that there are no regs on carbon trading and anyone can set themselves up as a trader.
How do I do it ?
I read this in an article where some crooks had been caught selling carbon offsets , fake offsets, adding VAT and pocketing that as well.
The VATman caught them. Bet if they had paid the VAT over they would still be running.
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Good morning each & Andrew.
So what?
Are we set for another five years of complaining?
Could it be otherwise?
Shall you stand behind a Party that puts your interests first? As opposed to a party that puts 'my' interests first?
Are we, you and I enemies?
Should we not vote for one of our own, one from our own community without party affiliation?
Do you hope for;
-change?
-democracy?
-more of a say?
Maybe moaning and complaining is more fun, a British sport?
Do you think that voting for an established Political Party absolves you from blame and that to do otherwise is to take (too much?) responsibility?
Is not the present state of affairs your fault?
Are you, in a Democracy, powerless?
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Good Morning Andrew,
I listened yesterday to the Miliband/Hague 'conversation' on the Today programme.
I heard serious commentators referring to this conversation and these are my thoughts. The politicians are a disgrace, shame on them all. We have our soldiers killing and being killed in Afghanistan, and our Special Forces in all probability operating in pakistan as well.
How dare they talk about apologies for what somebody who is now dead caused or did not cause. These scum, and I use my words advisedly, are now, yes now, responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands, women, children, freedom fighters, all dead at the hand of our military. The air force drop bombs on the instructions of a man sat a computer terminal. A prince of the realm wears caps with 'we do bad things to bad people'. How many trials have been held, how many insurgents have actually been captured and brought to trial. How many alqaeda have been actually brought before a judge, and jury, and actually charged and convicted of anything.
How dare Miliband in particular try to divert attention from his, and the government of which he is a part, 'crimes'. There is no problem, all these people we kill are 'foreigners' they are 'the enemy', we are the good people. We kill them to protect you, to keep terror off the streets.
Andrew, this is seriously not good enough. How dare they try to split the country into little groups just so that they can get votes. I know that it has always happened, we are currently being bribed with quantitative easing, well the price we will have to pay, the money our children and grandchildren will have to pay will destroy us all. This is not good enough, the ends do not justify the means. Some people do not always do as they are ordered to do, but I suppose we are so morally bankrupt some people will continue to follow orders, the left can be fascists as well. They can also be homophobes, rascists, and anti-semites. Labels, welcome to the real world.
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So Brown's tacit admission of support for Bliar has ultimately lead to the downfall of the campaign
I would like to know just what all this hoohaa has been covering up
What detail is being slid through, that this has been so high profile? and shame on the BBC for sucking up to the hype
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#153 StrongholdBarricades
The fault is yours.
The solution is yours.
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Andrew,
a small point but why was Dianne Abbot not wearing her poppy last night?
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One thing to recognise about the upcoming Climate Change Conference is that the cost of the measures that will need to be instigated to achieve the ever increasing pledges of the likes of Gordon will be phenomenal, not that there is much of a hope af anyone ever achieving them.
Of course, as we're still on the cusp of deciding whether to spend squillions more cash on quantitive easing to drag ourselves out of a recession, we will be required to spend vast amounts of money enabling economies like China and India to fund their projects, and they've not experienced recession. The new entrants to the EC have already absented themselves from paying extra, so they'll only jump on the Climate Change bandwagon if they are given a free ticket.
Obama is quite right to stay away, he isn't being invited, he's being called on to attend so that everyone can draw up a bill for him to pay. More fool Gordon for being there.
If combatting Climate Change is proposed as a moral obligation on humantiy, then Carbon Trading is immoral. Putting the regulation into the hands of the financiers who cynically trashed the world economy in the chase for profits, is reckless beyond belief.
If I'm not convinced by the Climate Change argument, then the proposed solution turns me off completely.
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If saving the planet is the aim, and that's the moral imperative that Climate Change proposers put to us with all the zeal of a Bible belt preacher, then are they up to facing reality ? - are THEY prepared to pay the price ?
Population is the driving force behind pollution and depletion of planet resources and energy usage. Are our scientists having an off day not to even raise it as an issue ?
Next glaring omission. Industrialisation and economic activity. Why are we promoting the Olympics. the Soccer World Cup and other events, like the Conference itself that are events designed to massively do all the things that we are told will damage the world and drown our puppies. If we employed that tactic with illegal drugs we'd legalise them all and hold world drug taking championships.
The undoubted reason is that our leaders are promoting solutions of convenience. It's the marketing patter of the nuclear bunker salesman. The more hysteria and hype, the more sales you make. Are things a bit slow after the last industrial revolution ? Cars, computers and ships are all made much cheaper in the Far East, so do we need to invent something else we can excel at ?
Energy conservation and pollution control are fine, but don't let's overdo it chaps, and putting it all in the hands of market forces is taking frivolity to new extremes. We've seen where that leads.
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#154 a bit cryptic?
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'158 StrongholdBarricades
Please see my #151
What can be done?
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Andrew,
listened to the World at One programme on Radio 4. When referring to the problems within the postal service on individual whose name I did not catch said about the postal union using 'Taleban type tactics'. Now excuse me! I regard the use of that combination of words as being hihjly emotive baring in mind that our soldiers are fighting the Taleban, being killed and injured by them. Now how dare the individual cast such comments onto the airwaves without any come back. I am just so angry.
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Andrew,
I was listening to Brown on the radio commenting about Copenhagen. I was then struck by a metaphorical bolt of lightening.
Surely, the answer o the problem of the new 'president' of Europe must surely be that actually Gordon Brown must be the first president. He has a history of agreements with Blair, you know you do it and then hand it over to me. Well surely Brown can be dragged kicking and screamimg like a Speaker in the Commons to be the new president. Blair said that he would serve a full term, but then cut and run, so he can't be trusted to see the job through. Would there be yet another agreement where he starts the job but then hands over to Brown, who will have nothing to do once he loses his job as PM.
So, sort it now. Brown as the new president, he would be perfect for the job, is a great chairman, he has saved the world, and Blair can continue to sort out the middle east. Problem solved. Brown resign today and say I will do the job.
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A debate about democracy would certainly fill much more than this blog
It is, however, preferable to the alternative
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Susan @ 106 (Nick)
"you see race issues in everything now"
hi there; central blog topic was an allegation of anti semitism
race not relevant in your "mind" ??
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Andrew,
bankers make mistakes. It would seem that that many people think that they should be lynched. Have their pensions stolen from them?
In the meantime BP is fined again in the states. Lord Browne is the former head of the company. Got made a Lord. People have died.
Come on somebody tell me how fair this is!
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Sagamix 163
You know very well what I mean, I am against anti semitism as you very well know. However you keep seeing race issues from other bloggers that do not exist.
You are the one with a problem with race, not anyone else.
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important subject Susan; can't go on sweeping it under the carpet can we? ... big believer in open and frank communication I am
so long as I'm out of punching range
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Sagamix 166
Yes I have noticed that ducking and diving seems to be your speciality when serious issues are being discussed.
One liners particularly seems to be your cop out.
I particularly like the description of yourself as outstanding attractive. Who says males are not more vain than women.
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Saga
Did you ever watch the Kumars at No 42 ?
Marvellous series with Meera Syal etc.
There was one of the characters , a father fuigure who whatever person or subject was raised with him he always claimed the they/ it was "Indian".
You remind me of him.
Mind you he had his moment when they did one episode in India, can still see him walking down a rd in Delhi pointing at everything he was passing and repeating Indian, Indian.
His obsession was ammusing. Your penchant for seeing racism in everything is worrying. You write some good stuff but you seem to have this achilles heel that makes you see racism evrywhere. Why my friend ?
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sc @ 167
I particularly like the description of yourself as outstandingly attractive
mmm, can be a problem though in terms of being taken seriously - people often take one look and think "male bimbo" - you know what I mean, Susan?
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xtun @ 168
I do have achilles heels (plenty of them actually!) but I'm pretty sure that's not one - 22 pc say they might vote BNP per last week's poll; one in five and a few more, I make that
there are two possibilities we should consider, aren't there?
either:
(a) I'm seeing racism where I shouldn't
or:
(b) you're NOT seeing it where you should
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The trouble is sagamix you fail to recognise that the Labour Party no longer exists. Look up the Fabian Society and its roots. You'll find it a revelation. It appears to represnt the building blocks for Nu Labour and clearly shows why and when it detached itself from the working class and chose to promote an elitist oligarchy.
It also clearly shows why Labour have taken such silly risks with democracy. They simply have the conceit of dictators to believe they are right, whatever the 'plebs' think.
The sooner Blair, Mandelson and Milliband(s) are dropped into the dustbin of history the better. I condemn Gordon as a fellow traveller who just let them take control.
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170 Saga
Do you not think that most of those considering voting BNP are not supportive of any extreme BNP policies but feel abandoned by their "usual" party, mainly Labour and grasp at straws that sound as though the BNP might care ?
A variation on any port in a storm.
As to me not seeing racism, I havnt seen any for years. I remember signs outside lodgings and workplaces saying No Irish need apply. Likewise
similar things with the black and asian incomers until laws came in to prevent it. Last experience of anything like that was when I lived next door to a West Indian who asked me not to sell my house to Asians.
Nowdays racism seems to be calling someone a name relating to their origin. In my book that is no different to calling someone a red haired twit or a fat so and so, long haired idiot etc. It is an insult including a specific reference to a physical fact.
But one is racist and the other isnt.
What nonsenses we make and cause more trouble because of it.
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Sagamix 169
No I cannot say that I do know what you mean, having been out with some extremely good looking men, I have always respected them more for their intellect than their looks.
You can get awfully bored looking at something even if it is beautiful, however you can never get bored of someone who has the ability to bring light into your life through knowledge.
You put to much emphasis on the outward shell, as such you will allow all the important things in life to pass you by. You give me the impression that you do.
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Sagamix
You need to be very careful, because to be honest people will start to believe that your obsession with race, is based on yourself. Often people who develop a really deep seated belief that others are of a particular leaning about an issue, are actually recognising something within themselves they do not like.
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Croftie
Your 174 has made me think.
Yeah when I am out and about I am thinking look at the price of petro. My groceries bill is more than ever. How am I going to afford my tax , insurance, MOT. Whats that copper doing hiding in the hedge. Why are there roadworks everywhere. Why have the dustmen left the wheely bin a mile away. This week, why have two warning lights come on in my car and how much is that going to cost.
In other words just battling through life is hard enough. To look for, and find, racism in everything is as you say either a deep seated flaw or get a life as complicated as the rest of us.
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I've seen racism, plenty of it.
I saw a Muslim Imam manhandled out of business class where he said he needed the space to pray in the aisle, which wasn't available in economy where he had come from. It was quite a struggle with raised voices and a lot of pushing and shoving involving several passengers.
Of course it was an Arab owned airline with, I presume, Muslim staff and mainly Arab passengers. The point being, we are now programmed to see racism where none exists.
The same situation on a British airline would have hit the newspapers.
Would you say this was not a racial incident purely because a white person was not involved ? I'm not specifically getting at you sagamix, because, when I travelled before my operation, I always enjoyed observing situations that highlighted social and moral dilemmas, especially more subtle interactions.
... and in case you wondered, I wasn't offended by his presence or wish to pray, but i could see the impracticality of him blocking the aisle, and in all my time of flying I had never before seen a Muslim pray in the aisle.
What I dislike about those who proclaim themselves, not to be racist, is that they are are absolving themselves of the responsibility for questioning their motives for signs of imperfection. Life is complex - moral issues are complex, and I don't give myself scores of 10 out of 10 on any virtues, but I keep myself under constant review. I consider that attitude is realistic, honest and lacking conceit.
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176 Gomerpyle
You raise an interesting point. Is it racist to be annoyed or by habits or practices of different races ?
You mentioned an airline incident.
One thing that used to rattle me was the habit of asian men to sit at oposite ends of a bus and hold a loud conversation in their own language.
Is that racist of me ?
Mind you dont like the way the Welsh switch from English to Welsh in shops when they know you are English either. Now is that racist or is the action of them switching to a language I dont know in front of me racist?
If you look for it you can find it in all sorts of odd places in things that dont really matter. But would I wish those loud Asians or language switching Welsh any harm? No.
But perhaps if one looks for and finds it in such places one can start seeing it everywhere.
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Anyway, back to the topic, the great global warming swindle.
I see that our esteemed Chancellor and tax avoider, Flipper Darling, has confirmed today that the latest round of flight taxes which come into effect from tomorrow,\are nothing to do with environmental concerns, but everything to do with the country being bust, and needing to raise money wherever he can, because "it is the right thing to do".
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1224222/Flight-taxes-hiked-bail-banks-Its-environment-says-Darling.html
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The great global warming swindle, part II:
According to the BBC:
"Prime Minister Gordon Brown has hailed a "breakthrough" in climate talks as EU leaders named the price of tackling carbon emissions.
In a provisional agreement, EU leaders agreed to make an offer to the rest of the world at a summit in Copenhagen.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8333885.stm
According to The Times:
" EU countries fail to agree on fund to help developing nations go green.
Nine Eastern European countries have refused to commit to an international fund to pay developing countries to go green, despite a plea from Lars Lokke Rasmussen, the Danish Prime Minister. Gordon Brown was one of the few leaders to push an EU plan to pay €10 billion a year into a global fund of €30 to €40 billion from 2020, which he warned was crucial to success in Copenhagen."
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6896153.ece
Shurely shome mishtake, BBC?
I can see why they are so keen to push through the Lisbon Treaty to allow for majority voting, stop these pesky little countries from getting ideas above their station in the grand scheme of things.
What will be next, a change of name to Oceania?
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xTunbridge 177
No that is not racist, that is ignorance on their part. In the case of the Asian men they would speak loudly because they know you cannot understand them. With the Welsh it gives them a sense of superiority to be able get one over on you, by speaking another language.
I once spent a lot of time in Greece. I remember every morning I would get up and speak to the waitress and learn some Greek off her. You cannot imagine the overwhelming joy it gave some of the people when I actually used this knowledge when taking to them. However I once came across a wealthy guy who could speak no English, his frustration at what he thought was his own ignorance was something to behold. However with the bit of knowledge I had and he had, we got by. The point is it never occurred to him that I should be able to speak Greek.
A Greek lawyer told me that Greeks, who are a very polite people, believe that it is ignorant not to speak in the language that is understood, if they possibly can. Thus if English is the language that is understood, that is the language they will use.
You see sometimes people are looking for and trying to cause division by strange means, for instance in your Asians and in the Welsh example. They are trying to set themselves apart from certain parts of society by the use of language. Its subtle but its there.
In the case of Gomers example the airline was merely carrying out their duty. However he is quite correct that if that had happened in Britain there would be an unmighty stink made of it. That is if the airline dare carry out their duty in the first place. This is the problem we have created for ourselves. Again though, as Gomer points out in his usual erudite way, racism is not a one way street, as people such as Saga seem to think.
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Yellowbelly1959
Brown is just thrashing around looking desperately for something to claim as being a success out of his time in office as PM. Climate change he has decided may be it. With the mess he has made of our finances he should not be promising any money to anything. Thank goodness there are more sensible leaders out there. Poland etc are quite right to say they need to get their own house in order first, before they commit to anything further, these are not rich Countries. Some of the Countries Brown wants them to help are richer than they are.
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Andrew,
I was listening to the Today programme report on parliament, what with the Youth Parliament being given access with the Speaker, and Harman in attendance.
My problem is that during the course of the day the Speaker turned off the microphones and then made reference to the BNP.
Why should we not all have heard what the Speaker was saying. More examples of censorship.
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racism and the BNP
here's the thing:
when discussing this, one needs to be clear about what racism is otherwise things get confused with different people talking about different things; when EYE use the word "racism" I mean the following:
a belief that people from certain racial groups other than your own are a little bit less "Human" than you are, and thus are not deserving of the same level of respect and treatment as you demand for yourself
that's generic; could be white and non white on white (anti semitism) could be black on white (Mugabe?) could be white on black and asian (BNP) - whatever
it's also useful, as a complement to the above definition, to give some examples of what racism ISN'T
it isn't:
- fear and mistrust of foreigners and foreign things
- irritation with or disapproval of alien customs
- inability to understand or empathise with different cultures
these things are NOT racism; they are a mixture of xenophobia, ignorance and human nature; all perfectly normal and nothing to get too exercised about
so, armed with our definition of what it is and what it isn't, we can now return to the matter of the "racism in the context of the BNP" debate and I am saying as follows:
in order to discuss the issue effectively, one has to first recognise what's been stopping us from doing so
it's two things:
(1) the political correctness of the Left which tags as racist anybody who dares to say there are potential negatives with an ethnically diverse society
(2) the political correctness of the Right which insists that racism is completely irrelevant to the debate on the BNP, and therefore to even mention it is "playing the race card"
many of the people on here (and even more so on Nick) are guilty of (2)
if you read MY posts on the subject ... read them I mean, rather than just react to my pen name ... you will see that I am guilty of neither
I like a bit of cut and thrust (as you all know!) but on this issue, believe me, I'm far more concerned with spreading enlightenment than with scoring points ... I commend this little analysis to you in that spirit
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It has become the usnspoken rule that, in any interaction with someone of ethnic origin, there is a presumption of racsim on the part of a white person, which is in itself a racist view. Racism isn't a line your cross, it's a tightrope you walk.
If the government put as much effort into it's Climate Change proposals, as it does to putting ex Labour deadbeats into high office, it might have some credibility. Forget the tosh about Blair losing money to take the role. Think of the influence and the contacts he'll have at his disposal. TB Associates will mint it. I doubt there's much money to be made in the Palestine Israel conflict, and he plays 'little boy lost' in the shadow and under the thumb, of the US. Not a comfortable position for a wannabe 'Colossus'.
If the Climate Change Conference is a success, it'll be disaster for us. Gordon's trying to peddle cough syrup that few people will take unless we bribe them, and we're not exactly well placed to do that. Gordon can't lead any initiative because he trashed our economy. He can only speak empty words and make empty promises, and he does that well. I suspect that other world leaders will look at our economy, and decide not to follow. They'll be well aware that his motives are fashioned by electoral desperation.
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# 183
I'm sorry sagamix but who gave you authority to define racism ?
This is where the Labour government falls flat on its face. If there's a problem and you're losing the argument, you don't win by changing the definitions.
This is precisely how Labour have got into this mess. Their belief that if anyone objects to policy, it's a fault in their comprehension.
Everything Gordon does has to be a Crusade and that doesn't go down well. Leading the country with moral certainty is always something to arouse suspicion, and when he demonstrates how easily he can fashion morality to suit his political needs, as with Afghanistan, then I have no trust in any moral argument he makes.
I know what racism is - thank you.
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Gomer @ 183
"It has become the unspoken rule that, in any interaction with someone of ethnic origin, there is a presumption of racism on the part of a white person, which is in itself a racist view"
only if you're defining racism rather more loosely than I'm doing in 183 and I don't think we should do that; racism is a very emotive allegation and so it's important that it's quite precisely defined - to assume that all white people are racist (per my definition of the word) is reprehensible racial stereotyping but it's not in itself racist - it's the equivalent, say, of assuming all black people are feckless
"Racism isn't a line you cross, it's a tightrope you walk"
this I like
to succumb to racist beliefs (defined as I've now done) has extremely serious consequences; it is, as you say, far more akin to falling from a great height than it is to merely crossing a line
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180. At 10:30am on 31 Oct 2009, Susan-Croft wrote:
"No that is not racist, that is ignorance on their part. In the case of the Asian men they would speak loudly because they know you cannot understand them. With the Welsh it gives them a sense of superiority to be able get one over on you, by speaking another language."
"They are trying to set themselves apart from certain parts of society by the use of language. Its subtle but its there."
S-C, I'm not going to label you racist, that would be too easy... perhaps paranoid or ignorant, as you so casually label those referred to in xT's post.
Do you have any understanding of cultural differences? We in this country generally are very precious about our personal 'space' and dislike any 'intrusions' be they physical or auditory. Not so with many other cultures across the world. Doesn't make them wrong and us right. How many Brits traveling abroad ignore local customs and take a 'stuff them' attitude? There are some habits people will always keep. As for people changing to their own language in public, why the hell not? I don't have to know what other people are saying to each other...I don't automatically assume they're talking about me either, and if they are I'm not bothered. All power to the Welsh if they can speak more than one language.
Stop being paranoid and loosen up a bit.
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RE :183
Saga I agree with this definition wholeheartedly
"a belief that people from certain racial groups other than your own are a little bit less "Human" than you are, and thus are not deserving of the same level of respect and treatment as you demand for yourself"
So lets apply it to you. Lets take the example of the figures that show race crime was more prevalent against whites and examine your own reaction.
You immediately dismissed the possibility out of hand as if it could not possibly be the case. When you did so you effectively said that people from ethnic minorities were not capable of the same failings as white people.
Would you describe that as racist?
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Morality and politics don't mix well. Labour have come unstuck in trying to make themselves appear to be the country's moral guardians. The Telegraph issue showed how untrue that was.
A conundrum to consider. Should US football teams have racial quotas applied to make them more accurately reflect the racial make up of the country ?
One of the touted purposes of the invasion of Iraq was to take Shiite Muslims out of domination from Sunni Muslims. Now we have left, a vicious campaign of violence has ensued, and the likelihood is that the same will happen in Afghanistan. The rise of the BNP in the UK is a result of Laour policy at home, abroad they have had no greater success.
Let's be blunt. Would you say that the foreign policy of our government is that of a racially diverse country with a very significant Muslim minority ?
Racism is a convenient stick with which to beat others, and one that the uncrupulous cast aside when it's expedient to do so. Government hypocrisy is all too obvious.
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You know Sagamix you really are in trouble over this issue. You keep moving the goal posts as to the definition of what racism is. Quite honestly I do not believe you know yourself. Gomer, I think puts this issue in its proper prospective, but you still do not see it.
I have found through life that most people just toddle along and do not notice what colour or creed most people are until it is pointed out to them by Governments and people who wish to stir up division.
However I have worked with Arabs, and as one of them said to me, the problem Britain has is they have allowed the people that come to their Country through immigration to take over. He expressed the view that this would never be allowed to happen in his Country.
Therefore what has happened in Britain, particularly England, is totally different from what has happened elsewhere. The English have been overwhelmed by how their Country is being changed from a mainly Christian Country full of churches and traditions, that they understand to something they do not recognise. Along with this minorities always get their own way, mainly due to a Government that wants or needs their votes. The Labour Party was always arrogant enough to believe they would always retain their core vote.
So now, not because of colour, not because of nationality, the English feel like, a them and us situation. This to be honest, has been caused more by the Government than racism, as you are trying to say. Now because no one in government represents the English anymore, they will find someone who will.
There is no doubt that with the increase in immigration, crime has increased both violent and gang related. Too many groups among the new arrivals have problems with each other, let alone the English, which they bring with them. Demonstrations happen regularly in London, when I lived there at least, holding up traffic etc which has nothing to do with Britain. Religious groups have extreme views which again have nothing to do with our way of life. Womens rights are not being enforced amongst the minorities, which are being forced on the rest of us. Dress code is ignored, even though you cannot work properly in our society without dressing properly for your work. Therefore many stay on benefits because they will not learn English and will not adopt proper dress. This is not racism it is the truth. The Government has not been very selective in who they allow in either, a lot come from Countries where life is cheap and they bring this attitude with them. That is why our prisons are full of foreigners who should be sent back. Our appeal system is ridiculous. We also now have unskilled workers from abroad, as if we did not have enough of our own, without any hope of getting jobs. Benefit payments are set to rocket. There is also no doubt that in many instances foreigners have had preferential treatment as far as housing etc. Our services are suffering badly. Now try to see it from the other side of the coin, instead of your habit of seeing it only from the immigrants point of view. Even immigrants who have lived in England a very long time are joining their voice to those saying enough is enough.
How to sort this all out though is another problem. Not being able to speak of it, because of the racist label certainly does not help.
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TheBlameGame 187
Not too troubled what you label me to be honest, I will still say what I think anyway. Actually its more your ignorance in not reading the post from its true prospective, in your rush to label people.
I have worked with many cultures and you are quite wrong in your assumptions.
Furthermore, paranoid means highly suspicious or fearful as I am neither, nor did my post contain anything of that nature, I will assume it was misuse of language and not an insult.
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I think we need a recap after this week of political turmoil, and I'm beginning to wonder just how much political fall out will actually happen in spite of Brown's intransigence
The MoD stuff has been rolling along for well over a month now, and it is becoming more and more vicious. Yet Bob Ainsworth seems to be wearing the protective equipment usually reserved for the troops. Meanwhile more die and become injured
The economy still appears broken despite attempts to talk it up, and the government has no answers to the problems created by the banks that they zombiefied
The Government seems to have got to the end of the road with the bond market such that it needs to realise some of those bank assets and is tempted to flog off the profitable part of Northern Crash, whilst Lloyds is bailing from the asset protection scheme
Postman Pat has sacked one of his advisers because his views don't chime with policy, but they can't counter his arguments in the papers
The CWU is still pulling out its workers and refusing to compromise at the negotiating table, and where is Mandy?
The expenses row rumbles on...and the thing I don't understand about the McNulty thing...I thought you weren't allowed to rent from relatives...is that unless you're from NuLabour? It was almost worth all the squirming from the former two homes secretary on QT, although she should pay back the money
All government eyes are upon Europe, and the domestic ball appears to have dropped...not to mention the Afghan one.
Our government declares European ideals and yet insults participants, duly elected by democratic process. Plus it goes against the majority of those voted into Europe by the recent elections who are euro sceptical
Brown must not like watching the 24 hour news from the bunker now because it has become worse than under Major. If anything goes wrong, the media is seeking an angle on government involvement so that they can collect the blame...and it just keeps on rolling
It does seem to have a momentum all of its own
...and the BBC...has pandered to all the non news
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sa @ 188
"Let's take the example of the figures that show race crime was more prevalent against whites. You immediately dismissed the possibility out of hand as if it could not possibly be the case"
No; pls go back and check my post(s) and you will see I didn't do that at all
and thank you for agreeing my definition of the R word
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Susan
Regarding women's rights for ethnic minorities, it will be interesting to see if Sarkoczy's plans to ban the veil in France become the European norm. How will this sit in a Britain human rights paradise, now firmly committed by Brown and Mandelson to be part of the EU?
From a security point of view the burka in our surveillance society much beloved by Nu labour is an absolute nightmare. Indeed people wearing the burka have been used successfully as suicide bombers in Iraq and Afghanistan.
In terms of controlled immigration other countries apply explicit criteria. In Brazil qualified professionals could only work in their professional capacity if they held Brazilian certificates, or were allowed in if their expertise did not exists locally. I believe Australia needs plumbers and joiners and/or people willing to settle in rural areas. I cannot think of a nation that has has a general use points system and is relaxed about where people settle. Nations abroad view migration as a way to benefit both parties, just opening the tap is plain bad governance something that this government has excelled at.
As to sagamix I also believe that there is one name but many different users of that name. Not all sagamix posts are consistent. There is at least one sagamix that believes in controlled immigration, and another that screams "racist, racist" at the drop of a hat...
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BG@187
I am with you on this - as far as I am concerned vive la difference, celebrate the different cultures and respect them.
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Re :193
I beg to differ Saga. Here was your exact response to the figures
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"here's Super Angry @ 135
I think you will find that there are those who believe that to allow mass immigration into England in an attempt to change the racial makeup of the country is Anti English Racism
and the same guy @ 200
The figures prove conclusively that white people are far more likely to be attacked because of race than any other section of the population
and now we get Susan Croft @ 203
"Super Angry" is right in his assessment in my opinion and I know he is not a person who decides issues on race
the comedy value is moving off the scale, it really is"
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You derided the very idea that there was even a possibility that ethnic minorities could possibly act in a racist manner. The difference between you and I is that I believe we are all part of the same human experience with all its good points and all its bad points. From what you wrote above I can only surmise that you believe that their is a section of the community, ie those from an ethnic minority, that is immune to part of that human experience.
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gomer @ 185
"I'm sorry sagamix but who gave you authority to define racism?"
it's important to have a common understanding of what something means if one is to discuss it in a meaningful way; do I need permission in order to put up something which I think is helpful? ... feel free to give us your definition if you disagree with mine
"This is where the Labour government falls flat on its face"
I'm not the Labour government, I'm a blogger with a hankering for a half way decent discussion of racism
"If there's a problem and you're losing the argument, you don't win by changing the definition"
I'm neither "losing" the argument, nor wanting to "win" it
I'm not changing the definition, I'm putting one up for the first time
as I say, I'd be interested in an alternative definition from you if you have one
"This is precisely how Labour have got into this mess. Their belief that if anyone objects to policy, it's a fault in their comprehension"
you're again confusing me with the Labour government
"Everything Gordon does has to be a Crusade and that doesn't go down well. Leading the country with moral certainty is always something to arouse suspicion, and when he demonstrates how easily he can fashion morality to suit his political needs, as with Afghanistan, then I have no trust in any moral argument he makes"
yet again, same thing - Gordon Brown may well have an unhealthy degree of moral certainty but I don't
"I know what racism is - thank you"
so tell us what it is then
either confirm you agree with my definition (per 183) or propose a variation
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Any political party that ignores common sense becomes irrelevant, no matter what its arguments. The Labour Party have become irrelevant, and people aren't listening to its arguments ?
Andy Burnham has been spouting again. Undoubtedly someone's kicked him up the backside to prompt him to say something. More of this two week cancer deadline drivel. It appears that he knows nothing about the health service. Has anyone ever been referred direct to a cancer specialist by a GP ? Maybe he's playing with words, playing trick or treat for the fun of it.
The NHS don't comply with current NICE requirements, so setting any more stringent demands is laughable, unless like me you have cancer. I have a sense of humour, unless cheap and nasty politicians start to hand out fake promises and lies to try and buy electoral support.
I'm compiling my story Andy - and I doubt it's unique, unless the Leicestershire and Rutland NHS is unique. I'll be happy to shove it wherever it has to be shoved to make you ashamed of such disreputable words. I hope you choke on it.
Two years and I still haven't seen an oncologist. Riddle me that Andy.
Forgive me - I'm blisteringly angry. Let me quote this - from my first google search.
"As with most of the Health Care in the UK, Nephrology is virtually all NHS and very little privately funded"
How much cancer care can you get from the private sector ? Make it the election battleground if you like Andy, but you have precious little to offer - a cancer patient.
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Gomer @ 189
"A conundrum to consider. Should US football teams have racial quotas applied to make them more accurately reflect the racial make up of the country?"
not sure that's a conundrum Gomer
but anyway ... No!
"The rise of the BNP in the UK is a result of Labour policy at home"
to say it's partially the result of Labour policy is true and fair comment - but that's not the whole story - it's a mistake to ignore the relevance of racism (let's stick with my 383 definition unless and until we get a better one) - these far right UK parties were around before 1997, remember, and have had varying degrees of success at various times
"Racism is a convenient stick with which to beat others"
indeed; another excellent reason why we should try and define what it is
"Let's be blunt. Would you say that the foreign policy of our government is that of a racially diverse country with a very significant Muslim minority?"
I'm with you on this; I've always opposed (and still do oppose) our "American lapdog" military adventures in the Middle East
listen, Gomer, all I'm seeking to do is two things:
- clarify what racism really means
- help people to understand that racism is playing a part in the success of the BNP, and thus get them to accept that it's perfectly reasonable for somebody (me or anybody else) to draw attention to it
it's all good stuff, really it is
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183 Saga
For something that is very difficult to define I think your core definition is about as good as you could get.
However the debate is not so easy. You give two examples about the BNP and racism, one for the Left and one for the Right.
You miss a group which I believe is bigger than either of the two you refer to. It is those who have no liking for the BNPs racist policies but are prepared to overlook them to support a party which seems to show
a willingness to listen to matters of concern, yes immigration, that the main parties have cosistently refused to debate. If another party comes along that offers the same policies without the racism, and I hope you agree that wanting a controlled immigration policy is not racist,the BNP would lose all the fed up folk currently beating a path to it.
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191. Susan-Croft:
"Not too troubled what you label me to be honest,"
Well have a think before labeling other people ignorant because they choose to communicate differently to yourself.
Working with different cultures does not automatically make one tolerant of them. Exactly what perspective would you like me to view the following from?
"No that is not racist, that is ignorance on their part. In the case of the Asian men they would speak loudly because they know you cannot understand them. With the Welsh it gives them a sense of superiority to be able get one over on you, by speaking another language."
I can hear my parents' generation talking like that (they'd be in their nineties now) but I'd hoped we'd progressed since.
"I will still say what I think anyway."
And I would never want to censor you, you should know that by now. But don't expect to go unchallenged when making sweeping statements based on personal assumptions.
ps Paranoia can mean intense suspicion. You suspect or imagine that the Welsh talk in their home tongue to "get one over on you"...you cannot categorically state that as fact.
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super angry @ 196
no, you misinterpreted my "comedy value" comment - fair enough, it can happen easily enough with this type of communication - the CV I was referring to was that provided by certain bloggers on this board, not the precise link which you posted
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201 TheBlameGame
You refer to earlier generations in your post and I think my parents would have taken the view that both the loud talking Asians and the language switching Welsh were exhibiting bad manners in that their actions had the potential to make others feel uncomfortable.
Heck I can remember being told off for whispering in case others thought I was talking about them.
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Sagamix 197
Sagamix nobody including you can define racism in this Country anymore because the term is used with such loose meaning, it means nothing anymore.
For instance Blame in his post to me indicates he would use it on me, but just stops short. This in the past would have horrified me, knowing full well I am a tolerant person. However because it has become the norm to accuse the most innocent of this heinous crime, nobody cares anymore. Thus it will encourage more people to speak out. There are two sets of people doing the damage to race relations in this Country, one is people such as yourself who see racism in everything and those who run out the line diversity is good and we should celebrate it. In the first case everyone starts not to care about being called a racist because it means nothing anymore. In the second these people are not recognising the problems in society and just sweeping it under the carpet.
Diversity is not good when it effects so many peoples lives and is causing problems in society. Of course it is so easy to come out with these nice little soundbites, everyone will say what a nice chap. However it solves nothing and the problems continue. Until the bubble busts of course and it effects their lives as well.
BTW SuperAngry is correct again.
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ecb @ 194
"As to sagamix I also believe that there is one name but many different users of that name"
that would be nice but sadly it's not the case; the good, the bad and the ugly ... it's all mine!
"Not all sagamix posts are consistent"
I try my best to be consistent and I think on the whole I am; I DO have a coherent political philosophy ... that of Clear Thinking Progressiveness ... and I find that helps a lot
but, yes, I've been known to change my mind on things from time to time (since I'm not dogmatic) and I often try to make a particular point in a variety of different ways (since I'm quite imaginative)
all in all, I wouldn't change me for the world
"There is at least one sagamix that believes in controlled immigration"
I've never been in favour of a completely open border policy for the UK - immigration HAS to be controlled, of course it does
"and another that screams "racist, racist" at the drop of a hat"
lazy stereotyping; the record shows that I've been very precise - I've done no "screaming of racist racist" either at the drop of a hat or at the drop of anything else - what I HAVE done (and will continue to do) is call out a person giving credence to the quite ridiculous "lefty masterplan to commit ethnicide on the White British" line as being guilty of the peddling of toxic propaganda which is helpful to racists
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excellentcatblogger 194
I agree with everything in your post. Sarkoczy has said he will ban the veil for security reasons and womens rights. If he does the rest of the EU will follow. Not before time in my opinion.
As to Sagamix it has to be more than one person, because one is more tolerant with a bit of charm, then another who is in between, the other is just an angry head.
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xTunbridge 203
Exactly.
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sc @ 190
"Sagamix you really are in trouble over this issue. You keep moving the goal posts as to the definition of what racism is. Gomer, I think puts this issue in its proper prospective, but you still do not see it"
I am in trouble yes; I'm having tremendous trouble (more than I expected) in getting you to read and mentally process my posts instead of just reacting to who's written them - I think what might be happening here is that, because of the intense (!) attraction between us, your vision goes a bit blurry when you're looking at something I've written - and if that's it, Susan, I don't mind - quite like the idea actually!
but anyway, look
I'm not "moving the goalposts" on a definition of racism, quite the opposite ... I've put up a "first time ever" definition - please do comment on it or, if you prefer, offer one of your own
and there's a reason why I don't "see" that Gomer is putting the issue in its proper perspective; a pretty good reason too
he isn't
on one or two other issues, the bank bonus thing in particular (remember that one, babe?) Gomer is a total rock star but on this matter ... racism and the BNP ... he is (at least thus far) anything but - far from "putting the issue in its proper perspective", he is expressing sloppy thought with sloppy language and is taking us over the hills and far away from the point
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TheBlameGame 201
Actually Blame it was you who called me ignorant and parnoid in your post because I had a different view to you
I hardly think you are in a position now be annoyed because I expressed you were.
You can interpret my post as you wish, however, if it is not defined in way it was expressed, then I am entitled to say so.
Furthermore, whether I am tolerant or not will not change your view, because you have set ideas that you wish people to conform to.
I am afraid you also misunderstood what I was saying in relation to other cultures. The behaviour of the Welsh and Asians in the example given, would be classed by any culture as ignorant. Therefore your assertion that cultures behave differently is I suggest is incorrect. However because Tunbridge had to wonder whether it was racist and you seem to have jumped on the same bandwagon, gives you some ideas of what level we have reached in the obsession of fear of being labelled as racist in this Country.
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xtun @ 2C
a big thank you for responding to what I wrote, rather than to things I haven't written - an exciting moment for me!
great that you found my definition of the word ... racism 183 shall we call it? ... to be helpful, rather than some underhand "moving of the goalposts" a la Gomer and Susan
and absolutely; there is nothing racist 183 ... nothing racist 183 whatsoever ... in having concerns about Immigration
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susan @ 204
"the term racism is used with such loose meaning"
quite; that's why we should define it!
"it means nothing anymore"
that's the risk if we don't try and define it
"nobody including you can define racism"
yes I can (!) and I have ... "racism 183" is now defined
you can either:
- comment on it, or
- offer an alternative, or
- say that racism is a myth; doesn't exist
any of the above would be interesting
otherwise you're not contributing much, I'm afraid
up to you, babe
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210
Saga
You may be surprised to learn that although I am no Watership Down sentementalist I have grave reservations about the mistreatment of any animal but especially our close relatives the apes.
I think those who feel entitled to treat them as a less worthy form of life need to examine their consciences.
I have wondered if a "lost world" was ever discovered with , say, Neanderthals still living there how would they be treated?
I mean the last licence to hunt Aboriginies in Australia was only issued in the early 20th century.
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xtun @ 212
"the last licence to hunt Aboriginies in Australia was only issued in the early 20th century"
really, I didn't know that ... how amazing
and hard to better as a salutory example of what unbridled racism (183) can lead to
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No one needs to give me a definition of racism. I think Labour could do with one though. They're the ones in trouble on the issue.
David Milliband is very brave to be Foreign Secretary with his father's quotes on US motives and actions in Vietnam to haunt him.
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gp @ 214
"No one needs to give me a definition of racism"
didn't NEED to, Gomer, that's true ... I just wanted to since I thought you might find it helpful
"I think Labour could do with one though. They're the ones in trouble on the issue"
it's a mistake to be too sanguine about racism and the BNP purely on the grounds that, right now, it happens to be especially damaging to the Labour Party
"David Miliband is very brave to be Foreign Secretary with his father's quotes on US motives and actions in Vietnam to haunt him"
what are those, please? (thrust of, I mean)
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# 211
Naughty naughty sagamix. Handing out ultimatums. You sound more and more like Nu Labour by the minute.
I don't operate on state supplied morality. I've seen how flexible it is when it's left in the hands of our current government.
I make my own decisions, which is something the government would like to change, but they never managed to take away all our rights and freedoms. Maybe next time.
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209. Susan-Croft
"TheBlameGame 201
Actually Blame it was you who called me ignorant and parnoid in your post because I had a different view to you"
"PERHAPS...ignorant or paranoid"
And no, SC, it was because of this comment which was presented as fact (unfortunately I have to repeat it once again), NOT because you have a different view to me:
"No that is not racist, that is ignorance on their part. In the case of the Asian men they would speak loudly because they know you cannot understand them. With the Welsh it gives them a sense of superiority to be able get one over on you, by speaking another language."
If you cannot understand how ridiculous that sounds.. without any qualifications or evidence... no matter what spin you put on it, then there is no point in continuing any kind of debate with you. And bringing xT into this was well wide of the mark, his comments had no bearing on my reaction to your post.
This thread often gets racism and the immigration issue confused. I do not entirely disagree with you on how Labour has mishandled immigration, I've said so before on these boards, but that 'problem' has caused more than a few people to scratch some long-standing itches...
Racism, as others have said before, should not to be conflated with the immigration issue.
My reaction to your comments has nothing to do with immigration. Unless the Welsh are now to be considered as immigrants.
I've been around this old town long enough to understand the subtleties involved in all these problems. I'll even admit there's a bit of inherent racism in me... it's not unnatural. It's how you recognise it and deal with it, what you do with it, that matters.
What I cannot accept are sweeping statements and generalisations presented as fact or as representative of an entire race.
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Well racism can take many guises - you can never make people like everyone - but the only thing we can legislate against is discrimination based on ethnicity and incitement to harm any ethnic group.
The BNP if elected would offend on both counts and anyone who thinks otherwise is misguided.
Immigration is an issue for many people - but I am sure the French and Spanish villages invaded by the ex pats feel pretty much the same. As a nation the British are probably the worst offenders for emigration.
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209. Susan-Croft
I just had to pick you up on this jaw-dropper...
"Therefore your assertion that cultures behave differently is I suggest is incorrect."
I rest my case.
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I'll let you look it up sagamix. He seemed to be very upset about capitalists shooting up foreign countries, trying to impose their views on them.
I presume that Socialist bullets hurt less.
Certain truths appear to be dawning on government, as support for the never ending military occupation of Afghanistan wanes.
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213 Saga
The mistreatment of the Australian Aboriginals is horrific.
As well as being shot for fun, one infamous policeman of the 1890s had many pairs of black ears nailed to his wall as trophies, from 1900 to 1972 100,000 children were removed from their parents because they were mixed race and threatened the white australia policy. They were brought up in govt hostels and encouraged to "marry out" so that succcesive generations would dilute any aboriginal blood.Others were sent to Canada where they and their offsprings are being treated badly.
Currently there is a battle over benefits or welfare as they call it. They have what they call quarantined welfare whereby they can only get store cards useable in large stores, not cash. Some live many miles from the nearest store. The white Australians are asking for separate check outs for the card holders. The police harrassment of Aboriginals is endemic.
Try a trip out there Saga ,make you cry.
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Sagamix
Actually your definition of racism is incorrect. However I wanted to see how far down the line of self belief you would go before anyone challenged it. The definition of racism is the theory of human abilities etc are determined by race. Quite a lot different than the over zealous version you provide. The definition of course does not put it in black and white terms as you do.
Tunbridge actually brings up a very interesting point, I love animals every bit as much as humans. The pain and sorrow I see in the eyes of animals treated badly by humans does not seem to factor much in the thoughts of humans because their definition comes well below the superior beings called humans. I often muse about the situation in th film "Planet of the Apes" where they get their chance. So you see by nature man is cruel.
However do we then go on to define levels of cruelty in which case humans come under another definition. Who is part of a humane society and who is not. Does this then alter the status of racsim. Yes it does. If the definition of being a racist is judged on the definition you give then those that are treating animals as a bit less human as you put it are racist. See how far we can go down your road.
Your whole argument is flawed really because unlike Gomer, unlike Tunbridge, unlike excellent, unlike Super I suspect you are not a deep thinker. You look on the surface of arguments and fixate on one particular facet rather than the plethora of a debate.
You have lived a charmed life I believe, where the realities have never much engaged you. Therefore it has become easy for you to have tunnel vision and see the World pretty much from your own angle.
I would imagine not much apart from on here has challenged you, so it becomes very easy to give lectures to others. You have a lot to learn I am afraid. A catch phrase or a stolen line does not prove an argument, however these are the tools you seem to rely on.
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ICM Poll - Sunday Telegraph:
Con 42% (-2)
Lab 25% (-2)
Lib Dem 21% (+3)
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gp @ 216
"I make my own decisions"
of course you do, Gomer! - you "think" what you want, you write what you want - I wouldn't have it any other way
but look, you can EITHER:
(a) try to understand what racism is ... what it isn't ... how it's manifested etc
or you can:
(b) view and comment on the issue purely through the prism of New Labour hatred
but you can't do both
and yes (!) it is very much your decision
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Blame 219
I expected better of you blame. Taking lines out of context is not usually your style. The reference was to ignorance is ignorance, as regards manners, wherever you are, no culture is any different in this respect. Unless you are telling me different of course, as in your earlier post. No jaw dropper there, I am afraid.
I do not know what you are trying to infer all the time, however it speaks more about you than me.
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gomer @ 220
"He seemed to be very upset about capitalists shooting up foreign countries, trying to impose their views on them"
yes, what a pity those sentiments didn't carry the day with his mentor a few years back eh?
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Worrying article in the Times:
BNP support up 50% in far-right strongholds.
The study, for the Equality and Human Rights Commission, the race watchdog, is the most comprehensive official analysis of the BNP produced. Supported by polling from ICM, it was based on three samples of 1,500 people in Blackburn, northwest Leicestershire and Stoke-on-Trent.
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xt @ 221
"Try a trip out there Saga, make you cry"
I lived in Oz for a while and got the chance to see a bit of the country - the aspect you refer to I did come across (especially when I travelled inland) and, yes of course ... very very sad
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susan @ 222
"Your whole argument is flawed because unlike Gomer, unlike Tunbridge, unlike Excellent, unlike Super, I suspect you are not a deep thinker"
you said you wouldn't do that!
you know, write me off as a Bimbo just because (as you now know) I'm physically very attractive
a really low blow, babe
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225. Susan-Croft wrote:
"The reference was to ignorance is ignorance, as regards manners, wherever you are, no culture is any different in this respect."
Yes, relevant to what they regard as manners.
My point is that manners and what's acceptable behaviour in one culture may be different to another. Therefore one cannot dismiss out of hand one group as ignorant because they do not conform to one's own beliefs in what constitutes good manners or acceptable behaviour. If you don't understand that I'm happy to site specific examples.
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Roll @ 227
wow
thank god for FPTP, I guess, from this particular point of view
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Roll_on_2010
Thanks for keeping us informed. Its good of you.
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Roll on @ 227
Not surprised - areas of high unemployment with high ethnic population - traditional Labour voters who won't vote Tory because they see no difference mistakenly turn to the BNP.
I actually find it all very sad. I work with a number of Asian ladies who take on fairly menial jobs to support their kids through their education, whereas their "indigenous white" contemporaries spend all their spare money on holidays abroad and new cars and have the temerity to resent their Asian counterparts for taking responsibility for their lives.
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meninwhitecoats 218
Coats the Labour Government have been legislating against discrimination towards minority groups, all the time they have been in office. That has made the situation worse.
I am sure that the Spanish and French are not too enamoured of Brits invading them. However there is a massive difference. Most people who go to these places are self sufficient, therefore take nothing from the state because they have their own income. They usually have to contribute towards their healthcare and provide their own housing. They also have to embrace the culture of the said Countires especially in France where it is advisable to learn the language to be accepted.
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TheBlameGame 230
Blame honestly that is not what we were saying, loud voices on a bus, deliberately making people feel uncomfortable through the use of language is seen as ignorance in any Country. However the question was is it rascist or not to have these thoughts. My answer was no, the reason because ignorance cuts across all cultures.
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#234 Susan
"the Labour Government have been legislating against discrimination towards minority groups, all the time they have been in office. That has made the situation worse."
..oh Susan you are better than that, maybe it reads worse than it was meant.
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sc @ 234
"loud voices on a bus" ... can be annoying, that
hey but what's this all about?
"the Labour Government have been legislating against discrimination towards minority groups, all the time they have been in office. That has made the situation worse"
you'd repeal our Racial Discrimination laws?
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Hang on to your seats folk Duffs off on another bender:
Gordon Brown plans new spending splurge.
However, the proposals have caused alarm among Treasury officials who fear any increased spending could upset the financial markets, making it harder to service the growing national debt.
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After footling about in Afghanistan, to no great purpose for nine years, you'd believe it took the arrival of Hillary Clinton to understand that the problem was in Pakistan. The might of the Western world faltering and on the brink of collapse, and an unarmed woman gets straight to the point. No wonder we gave them the vote.
If we can't fix an election in a country we occupy by military force, it's going to be a tough job in Pakistan. The Taliban army, that exists in the imagination of our politicians, isn't going to ride down from the Hindu Kush and seize power. They'll do it by means of an election. Labour know how terrifying the prospect of an election can be.
The issue is exactly the same as that which applied in Vietnam. We want to effect political change by military force on people who don't share our beliefs. Unless you consider that morality doesn't apply once you exit our borders, that isn't the sort of behaviour tolerated by the Commission for Racial Equality.
The current military action is analagous to Labour using military force to target political opposition in Scarborough. Increasing the force won't make it any more effective, it'll just increase the death toll.
Labour wish to fashion the world in their image. It is the ultimate in racism. I don't care what Afghans do or think in Afghanistan - apparently Labour do.
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# 227
"BNP support up 50% in far-right strongholds."
The headline is puzzling as North West Leicestershire returned a Labour MP last time, and has done so for quite a while.
The article also quotes Phil Woolas as referring to separatist Islamic groups in Stoke on Trent. What he means by this I have little idea, and I'm having a hard time finding any independent corroboration of his assertion, but his comments are puzzling, and do perhaps indicate an admission that Labour have lost 'the plot'.
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#239
I wish that I was as logical and rational as yourself. I just get angry and let the words flow. You however, are a bit like Hillary, it has been obvious for an awful long time, like even before 9/11 that we in the west have got it wrong. The trouble is that people seem to concentrate on 9/11 rather than the events which led up to it.
It is the same with Pearl Harbor, the Great Depression, the Great War, we continue to avoid looking at the root cause, we keep looking as MacMillan would say at 'events dear boy events'.
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Good Morning Andrew,
so Darling is going to be on the political shows this morning. Telling us about setting up basic boring banks in the high Street. Denationalising the banks which were nationalised. I wonder if the labour party politicians in Westminster will be cheering now.
No doubt he will be on our screens, I would love to answer your questions but parliament must be given the details first, you may speculate what I will be saying to the commons, some of it will of course be in the Queens speech, or all this of course must be agreed with the regulator. The war which I am funding in Afghanistan, well that's to keep terror off our streets, we are finding all the money we need. huge payments in compensation, medical care, buting silence, please that demeans you asking that soret of question. Our boys are the best and no price is too high.
Elections, the president of Europe, please nothing to do with me, Miliband leaving his job, I'm here to talk about denationalising the banks, about flipping homes, I know nothing. Me, I have spoken to the Inland revenue and my tax returns are completely in order.
My appearance on the Andrew Marr show, none of your business Griffin, you just get back to your drivel on that Neil blog, you are a waste of space Griffin, you saw the forst Great Depression of the 21st century coming, oh yeah. Well I did too, remember it was me that said that people would get 'pissed off' with us, well never a truer word. Oh me I bought off the electorate in the North by saving Northern Rock, job losses in the westcountry, doesn't matter we can lose no MPs down there, well none which are worth saving anyway.
Sorry, must go, got to prepare to make my statement to parliament.
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#242
Sorry heard that Griffin thoight that I was going to be on the Andrew Marr. Swift change of tack, I will now be appearing on the Politics Show. You just can't trust these people can you. Oh, Harmans on the Marr Ahow, well she won't really be able to say much because Kelly hasn't had his report printed yet. Oh, yes expenses will be cut but I can't possibly comment that there will be an increase in wages paid to MPs, which will of course be subject to income tax and national insurance!
I hear say thirty thousand pounds phased in over a couple of years. Well you must wait until Kelly reports to hear what he says. Oh, Karzai, well the public have been softened up for a benign dictator, no elections to be held, sorry, that is a disgrace, fancy somebody taking over a government and then not facing the electorate. This is the mother of all parlaiments, and where we lead others follow.
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237. sagamix
sc @ 234
"loud voices on a bus" ... can be annoying, that
What I'd be concerned about is the Welsh singing their national anthem at the 5 nations game v England...in Welsh! Are they trying to put one over us?? Bloody cheek :-)
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Good morning each & Andrew.
TAG, don't get mad get even!
Did we not, when we were but children, see that the world as set to satisfy the adults. Did we not look forward to being adults ourselves?
To play our part in World affairs, to stride through life certain that we could shape the future for our own children?
Well, time has taken care of that we are each 'lucky' enough to have got this far.
Have we proved to ourselves that all our hopes and dreams were but childish fancy?
No matter how old we become there are ever those who 'know better' than us, even as the whole thing is going to the dogs.
MPs and those PPCs each tell we--the--people that they shall 'serve' us all for the good of all.
BUT
Is it not we--the--people who are set to serve THEM?
Canon fodder, ballot fodder reponsibility fodder?
We should take them at their word and take the fight to those who think themselves ordained to rule over us.
"This is a Democracy."
Let us prove that this is so.
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Andrew,
how interesting. I have pointed out that Dianne Abbot was not wearing a Poppy on Thursday.
Today I am looking at Harman. She is wearing a Poppy but also a broach of a very high heeled colourful shoe which detracts from the Poppy. I always thought that politicians would not wear something which detracts from the Poppy. I think that I really don't like Harman.
She is not showing the correct respect for the reasons as to why people wear the Poppy. Shame on her.
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Andrew,
I think we need to be told how this independent parliamentary committee, which will decide on Kelly, is made up. How independent are they, how much do they get paid. Will they be like Professor Nutt, who has done a very honourable thing by speaking out.
Harman made great play this morning on Kelly will propose but this independent committee will decide what does and does not go forward.
I feel a stitch up coming. In the meantime another soldier dies in Afghanistan. Brown can make his announcement before PMQs on wednesday. Kelly will report on wednesday, who really cares about PMQs any more. All I want is a general election. By the way where is 'Lord' Mandelson, seems to have disappeared. Probably stuck in a post office, or letter box.
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...so Poppies are there to wear, to remember the fallen, to help the broken.
Would you wear a picture of a naked child to show that you are against cruelty?
Would you wear a large diamond broach to show solidarity with the poor?
To blazes with the Poppy.
What better way to show all that the sacrifice of those that have gone before was not for nothing?
How about employing the freedom that was won for us by throwing off the yolk of the ruling classes?
What better way than to vote for a better future?
To blazes with HH and the rest who wear the poppy yet do NOTHING to slow the rate of death by warfare?
Let us have a non-fatal war at the next election.
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#248
I have never worn, and never will wear a Poppy. I can't be a hypocrite.
Another soldier dead, how many human beings killed. The churchs are holding a meeting putting a religious perspective on global warming, climate change blah blah blah. In the meantime the politicians seem to tolerate corruption, and have blood on their hands.
The brave and courageous ones are those who do not wear a Poppy. At least they are being honest.
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meninwhitecoats 236
Do not do a Sagamix on me coats, You know very well what was meant by that comment. The Labour Government has been using legislaion to extreme levels, bringing in all sorts of unnecssary measures to protect minority groups which has in fact made the difficulties in our society worse.
I could say to you, you were better than your comment on the Brits abroad, as you had definitely not thought that one through.
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gp @ 239
the Thought and Language Police are watching you, Gomer, and they don't like the way you've used the word "racism" in that post ... right at the very end too, you old devil!
just a throwaway, I suppose, but I'm afraid it's been spotted
and Reported
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sc @ 250
"The Labour Government has been using legislation to extreme levels, bringing in all sorts of unnecessary measures to protect minority groups which has in fact made the difficulties in our society worse"
I suppose a couple of examples would be too much to ask for?
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248 Oudeis
Throw off the yolk of the ruling classes eh?
Eggxactly.
Nothing to lose but our chains ?
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Sagamix 237
Do not be irrational Sagamix our racial discrimination laws are totally different to Labour bringing in legislation to protect minority groups to the extreme. The race relations act has been with us since 1976 I believe and is something all of us including every colour of politician supports.
I am bemused by the lengths people will go to to try to prove that someone has a racial slant. No wonder we are in such discord with race relations.
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Sagamix 252
The day you prove one of your arguments will be the day. I could actually give you many examples, however for now I think you should concentrate on getting you definition of racism right first because you are all over the place with that one.
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#253 xT
The yokes on me.
[got to keep the customer satisfied]
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Lord help us. I have some knowledge of Lloyds TSB, and the suggestion of how they're going to be split up is absolute insanity. I bet the board are probably still sitting in their seats in a state of shock at what's been suggested.
For about 15 years after taking over TSB, they ran the accounting on two separate computer systems. For a long time you had to use two separate pc's to effect transactions. It wasn't well handled, but after managing to merge everything, the idea of unmerging themselves is ridiculous. How do you make the split ? Do you split branches or customers ? How do you even identify them as they have been merged and, in some instances, branches have been closed due to duplication.
The obvious split to make is with HBOS, which should never have been merged and was clearly the poison pill, but that can't appen for political reasons. HBOS would fall flat on its face.
Telling Lloyds TSB to hive off TSB was a move no one saw coming, and is frankly bizarre.
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257 Gomerpyle
It may tho help Birmingham in its ambition to regain its municipal bank which was founded in 1916 and was run by the Council till 1976 when it joined with the TSB which itself became part of LLoyds in 1995.
The curent City Council looked into resurrecting it recently but found it too complicated and costly.
They might get it back cheap!
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Saga
Hey mate have a look at ex Met Commisioner Ian Blairs bit on the BBC New Front Page. He is complaining about " external species being brought into the indigenous situation".
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Andrew,
watched the wonderful chancellor on the politics show this morning. Would he like to explain why I am watching the grand prix on the BBC. In the background were adverts for RBS, why! Why is taxpayers money being spent on this. Why are Newcastle United still carrying the logo of Northern Rock. Why does the BBC show motor racing drivers covered in adverts. What on earth is the BBC spending my licence fee on motor sport at all?
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If the reports that Abdullahx2 is pulling out of the elections are true then the situation over there is becoming even more farcical. I heard a spokesperson for Karzai saying the elections must still go ahead... even if he is the only candidate. It's becoming fairly obvious that the real reason for staying in Afghanistan has nothing to do with Afghanistan itself.
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Ref 260 TAG
You may well sk why the RBS are sponsoring the F1 but my question is why are the RSB sponsoring an illegal pipeline in the Chad Cameroon Pipeline
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[ignore this, it is not unusual so to do]
These things happen because:
-We are happy to live in a Plutocracy and be called Democrats.
-We are happy to be subjects and be called Citizens.
-When our Red dog gets fleas we are content to swap it for a Blue dog.
Now that you are aware of just who is to blame might you be in a possition to do something about it?
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susan @ 255
"I could actually give you many examples"
mmm no doubt; a bit like all those UK political parties who are "a lot worse than the BNP" I suppose ... never did quite get to the bottom of that one, did we?
it's all promises promises, honey, isn't it?
met girls like you before
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# 261
TheBlameGame - the whole daft election idea was so clearly a Gordon isnpired Nu Labour idea, it's almost comical if not for the loss of life it's caused, with absolutely no benefit to anyone.
The USA were only going to ever allow one winner. Karzai's brother is effectively running CIA operations, and allegedly turning the drugs industry into a world leader, so it was only ever a PR exercise that left Afghans bemused. The only person who has emerged with credit is Abdulla, and we've sided with his opponent, a man universally reviled as being the leader of a corrupt regime. Let's not view the leection as anything but a disaster. Karzai had little credibility to begin with, now he has none.
The fact that an election was attempted signals a concern about national cohesion, which will be an imperative if a national army is to be maintained. That likelihood is now farther away than before.
I'm intrigued by Phil Woolas' reported comments in the Times about his allegation of there being Islamic separatist groups in Stoke on Trent. I can find no independent corroboration of his contention anywhere, and if the BNP had made the claim I wouldn't be surprised if arrests followed on the basis of attempting to incite racial hatred.
It appears that Labour are trying so hard to be all things to all people, that they're now trying to form a BNP wing. Policy is becoming schizophrenic and incomprehensible. If they'd had a sensible policy at the beginning, they wouldn't be in such a mess now.
The massive problem for Labour is that between now and the election, they're going to have to back out of some of their major policies, and that will do them severe harm.
Perhaps they'll promise a cure for cancer - and embody it in law. It's about all they've got left.
The more I think about the Lloyds TSB issue, the more untenable it becomes. How do you split the staff ? Pensions and job rights become an issue, and the bank has already been through various changes in structure that all work to interfere with its ability to function. If you're going to split a bank, any fool would understand the importance of doing so where there is a dividing line. It doesn't exist between Lloyds and TSB, but clearly does between Lloyds TSB and HBOS. Lloyds TSB are being twice punished for government irresponsibilty and recklessness.
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Roll_on_2010 223
"ICM Poll - Sunday Telegraph:
Con 42% (-2)
Lab 25% (-2)
Lib Dem 21% (+3)"
Which leaves others at 13% (due to rounding), of which the BNP were at 2%, according to the print version of the paper this morning.
Just wanted to get sagamix's (170) "22 pc say they might vote BNP" back to a point roughly in touch with reality.
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RE :227 Roll on
I think this bares out what I said on another post that the BNP are set to do serious damage to Labour in many of its traditional strongholds.
The Labour Party really has got itself in a mess over the issue of immigration. Andrew Neather's revelations will only have deepened the damage that this issue is and has done amongst the white working class who have traditionally voted Labour.
RE :233 meninwhitecoats
For those who are intending to vote for the BNP or have done so in the past I suspect that the idea they have voted for it "mistakenly" will sound like arrogance. The fact that you or I would not vote for them is irrelevant the BNP is a legitimate Party, ie it isnt outlawed, and no doubt its supporters would say, correctly in my view, they have a democratic right to vote for who they like.
The problem here neither lies with the BNP nor those that have voted for it. It rests with a Govt which has been determined to ignore public opinion on the issue of immigration.
I also suspect that for many people the betrayal over Lisbon has had some impact on forcing people to turn to the BNP. They see a political elite determined to have its own way and transfer powers to a foreign body irrespective of the wishes of the population.
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# 267
I can't agree with you more superAngry. I will mourn the demise of Socialism, but then I suppose that Nu Labour will blame the public and not look at themselves for allowing the likes of Lord Mandelson and Tony Blair (though he has only ever been the 'Joker Face' of Nu Labour) to cynically exploit the system.
The aims of Socialism are worthy and ethical, which is about as far removed as you can get from the tawdry bunch inhabiting Nu Labour and masquerading as Socialists. Once they've managed to remove democracy from the UK electorate, then it's game over. Accusing the Tories of Fascist associations is borderline farce when they so easily commune with Berlusconi and his ilk and aim to remove as much democracy as they can from the electorate.
I'm no Tory supporter but they do at least have a vision of democracy, which puts them in a different league to Labour. The good news is that my hedgehog has a better chance of becoming PM after the next election than Gordon.
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RE :268
Thank you. I too am not a Tory supporter. I shall describe myself as an alienated core Labour voter, I come from a family of the same. That is why I have transferred my support after many years to the English Democrats as have the rest of my family and friends.
Like, I think, those that have chosen to vote for the BNP I see this country as being betrayed from within by a rampant political elite determined to destroy the culture and values of our society in a social experiment called multi culturalism.
The only way to put a stop to it is to destroy, through the ballot box, all those that have the arrogance to believe that they can get away with ignoring the will of a majority of the population.
This Govt knows beyond any shadow of any doubt that is is facing anhiliation at the ballot box whenever the General Election is held. It is busy scurrying, in a quite grotesque spectacle, around Europe trying to find jobs for its elite when that time comes.
The fun in the Labour Party will begin after that election. I suspect as it did in the 80's it will rip itself apart. The Labour Party in my view is finished and quite rightly so.
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265 gomerpyle
To disentangle the TSB Scotland IT platform from Lloyds TSB platforms will be a nightmare. The internet side is likely to be all on Lloyds TSB servers, and splitting that will also be costly. We tend to see interfaces that connect to the old mainframes, so we have no real idea as to how old some of these systems are. I cannot imagine that there would have been any provision in the IT planning process in Lloyds TSB that would ever envisage such a scenario.
On the RBS side chopping off the insurance brands impacts on IT to differing extents. Churchill was an acquired business so may be easier to hive off, but Direct Line was developed as a partnership between RBS and Peter Wood so the IT systems may entrenched with RBS own IT systems. However, the biggest impact may be customer relationship. Typically Home Insurance policies are with the same provider as the mortgages due to dual direct debit discounts. In the current climate it is easier to swap Home insurance than your mortgage, so potentially the home insurance book may not be so attractive to potential buyers.
The government is being disingenuous in saying that Tesco and Virgin are new entrants to finance. Virgin OK, but Tesco have been in partnership with RBS for the last decade offering basic banking and insurance products. You can hardly say that Tesco have learnt from the best can you? Sainsbury's has had a similar relationship with HBOS.
TAG, the RBS advertising in Formula 1 and Northern Wreck's sponsorship in football continues as the contracts are legally binding with very expensive get out clauses. That said I wonder if the government has made any intervention or representation to the FIA and the FA at all. I am sure other sponsors could have been found to step in to take these two banks costs, and the government does have a close relationship with Bernie Ecclestone and the FA.
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Andrew,
the 'war on terror' keep 'terror off the streets of Britain' the 'booze culture' etc...
In the meantime I have just watched the end of a motor race. In an Arab state, the UAE. The winning car empblazoned with something called 'Red Bull'. Now when will the BBC stop being used for advertising. They used to name horses to get around advertising. Standards have fallen. The BBC should be sold off and all the employees transferred to the private sector, funded by advertising if you like. The advertising companies seem to just use the BBC anyway, might as well go the whole hog. Why on earth am I paying a licence fee so that the BBC buy the rights to motor racing, and then are just used as an adjunct to advertising. Sell-off the BBC.
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Who assigned Harry Harman the union spokesperson for dispossessed MP's spouses ? Is she fighting the cause of another victimised minority ?
Clearly she is unaware that redundancy is not tempered by Parliamentary subsidy in the real word. What's wrong with Jobseekers ? Surely it's there just for this purpose and, let's face it, they do at least have the support of a very well paid spouse, which most people don't.
She also says that she can't afford to lose Dabid Milliband to Europe. Thank heavens for that, because it means he'll be gone entirely after the next election.
David Milliband stands head and shoulders below nonentities in a crowd of nonentities. He appears so 'surplus to requirements' I can only imagine he seeks to inherit Gordon's mantle. That doesn't mark him out as possessing a very keen intelect, or he'd jump at the chance of a job in Rurope, for which is perfectly qualified.
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265. GomerPyle
It is incredible how this bunch of misfits and incompetents have managed to blag their way through 3 terms. Once Blair was exposed the game was up. You always knew, when seeing how lightweight those outside the inner sanctum were, how easily they were manipulated, that it was all going to end in tears. The only decent Labour MPs are now either deceased or relegated to the fringes of politics.
It's also an indictment of the ineffectiveness of the opposition. I suppose one must at least give credit to Cameron for pulling the Tories back from extinction. If he wants to 'restore' democracy then I'd think Ashcroft's rise to prominence is not a good omen.
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Andrew,
I have just been watching pictures from Kabul. Can soembody explain how is it that apparently we are at war in Afghanistan, that we occupy the country, that our soldiers are being murdered whilst on patrol, and that there would seem to be no British, nor American, soldiers on the streets of Kabul. maybe we ought to withdraw immediately. Why on earth are our soldiers there. This is a corrupt bankrupt totally undemocratic country. We have failed, it is time to leave Karzai, no more troops for Afghanistan, none. Where is the moemorandum of understanding between Britain and Afghanistan.
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jrp @ 266
different polls different results, JR ... nature of the beast
I wouldn't be too complacent about the rise of the BNP, if I were you, just because the current electoral demographics mean that it's to the benefit of the Conservative Party
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Is it any wonder this country is on the verge of bankruptcy
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/majornews/6475165/Britain-pays-child-benefit-for-more-than-50000-children-living-abroad.html
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super angry @ 267
"For those who are intending to vote for the BNP or have done so in the past, I suspect that the idea they have voted for it "mistakenly" will sound like arrogance"
to vote for this vile, racist party is at the very least a "mistake" (one could easily use a stronger word) and it's far more important to point that out than it is to worry about sounding arrogant
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260. At 12:22pm on 01 Nov 2009, T A Griffin (TAG) wrote:
Andrew,
watched the wonderful chancellor on the politics show this morning.
===
TAG, I too watched £Flipper" Darling on the Politics Show this morning.
He quite disgracefully peddled the same lie that he told last week. Yes, that's right, he outright lied live on national TV.
He said "I have always said that we would come out of recession at the turn of the year"
Not so. In his 2008 PBR speech he said:
"The IMF is forecasting that the US, Germany, Japan, France, Italy – as well as the UK – will all contract next year as a result of weak consumer spending and business investment.
I, too, am forecasting that output will continue to fall in the UK, for the first two quarters of next year.
But then, because of decisions taken in this Pre-Budget Report, I expect it to start to recover.
GDP growth for 2009 is forecast to be between –¾ per cent and –1 ¼ per cent."
In his 2009 Budget speech he said:
"The action already taken here, and internationally, and the measures I will announce today, mean that I expect the economy to start growing again towards the end of the year."
Not the same as "I have always said that the economy would start to grow at the turn of the year" at all. The man is a bare-faced liar, and gets away with it.
TAG, incidentally, knowing your apparent love (!) for F1, you may (not) be interested to know that the main sponsor of the Williams F1 team in the 1980's was TAG. It wasn't you was it?
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Andrew,
now I have been watching on the BBC something which people call cycle team pusuit. All the riders seem to be wearing very tight suits with the logo 'Sky' why are we seeing this on the BBC, if the BBC show international events then participants in those events should not be allowed to advertise.
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Harriet Harman: Kelly expenses report may be watered down.
What planet do these dipsticks live on?
Roll On 2010
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sa @ 269
"Like those that have chosen to vote for the BNP I see this country as being betrayed from within by a rampant political elite determined to destroy the culture and values of our society in a social experiment called multi culturalism"
so you see cultural diversity as the Big Issue, do you?
more important than, say, the level of inequality in our society?
interesting; I wonder how many other "left wingers" feel that way?
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SA@267
Well my wording may have been sloppy but the sentiment was right.
Of course I believe in democracy and would not seek to deny anyone their right to vote as they choose, however distasteful to me personally.
In times of hardship immigration always rears its head and the likes of the BNP profit - it profoundly dissapoints me that people feel this is the only way to express themslves.
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RE :277
It is only a mistke in your view my point is that its supporters would not see it in this way.
Calling the BNP vile and racist has quite clearly failed to halt the rise of the party. The question to adress isnt the failings of the BNP and its supporters but the quite deliberate ignoring of a section of the community that is disenfranchised by a powerful elite.
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EU to ban all shop refunds.
For more than a century, shops have offered refunds to people who return unwanted or faulty goods.
Plans by the European Union to “harmonise” consumer law will short-change them by removing that right and weakening safeguards.
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RE :281
I am sorry you are working your ideas from a false premise. You presume that the people of Britian were not a culturally diverse people before mass immigration.
This flys in the face of Britain and its history. The fact is Britian has always been a culturally diverse nation absorbing ideas and concepts from other countries long before the days of mass immigration. The very English language and the fact that many of the words that the English use show exactly that it has always been open to other cultures.
Cultural diversity has nothing whatsoever to do with multi culturalism.
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# 270
I bow to your superior knowledge excellentcatblogger, though we appear to agree that the government have chosen the most difficult, and potentially damaging, way of splitting up the banks. Something akin to attempting to share out a child after a marriage break up by cutting it in half.
I noticed on teletext that immigration officers were complaining that the new foreign student entry rules were failing. Now there's a surprise.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8332314.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7775544.stm
One Pakistan run college was alleged to have "1,200 international students on its rolls, despite claiming to have only 150. XXXXXXXX, has offered places to a further 1,575 foreigners."
It's still operating.
I can't think of a logical reason why you'd have terrorists in Afghanistan who want to do harm to the UK, when it's so easy for them to gain entry through such profitable government approved illegal entities in the UK.
If UK troops weren't dying - I'd laugh.
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#278
well how can I put this. When I used to test lines of computer code I always passed it by putting 'TAG' at the end of the line of code. People who leave their signature using graffitti on walls are also referred to as having left their 'TAG'. Now modesty prevents me from making claims which cannot be substantiated but..TAG
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275 sagamix
"different polls different results, JR ... nature of the beast"
The better point is, your "poll result" of 22% did not properly test the respondents in the sense of whether they actually would vote for the BNP or not, in an election, right now. When you do apply that test, you go from 22% who aren't completely repelled by the BNP down to 2% who would actually vote for them in a real election. [Likewise, for example, I'm not actually repelled by the LDs, but that doesn't mean I am an LD supporter, nor would I actually vote for them.]
I have some sympathy with the broad line you are taking. I regard the BNP as a national embarrassment. But I don't think you help matters at all by exaggerating so spectacularly what little support that they have.
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sa @ 285
"Cultural diversity has nothing whatsoever to do with multi culturalism"
okay fair enough; it's important that we're talking about the same thing
so what do YOU mean when you use the phrase a "multi cultural" society? (or "multi culturalism" if you prefer, if you feel that's different to "multi cultural") as the thing that's top of your dislike list
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Andrew,
the position of the Home Secretary is beginning to unravel and become untenable.
The reason I say this is that Johnson and ministers say that they set up commiitees and inquiries to take their advice, for example on MPs pay, climate change, drugs, you name it, an inquiry, the death of Dr Kelly, the Iraq inquiry, anything. Now then we can now see that if the inquiry comes up with the result which the government does not like then you're toast.
Let us say that a scientist joins a committee looking into climate change, he supports the current evidence. However, whilst on the committee the scientist converts, he sees Damascus and says that actually all that the government is doing is to raise money by taxes, rather than save the planet. What happens, he would be dropped like a stone.
We really cannot have this going on for any longer. Darling talks about the banks and selling them off in the long run. Now Darling, I hope is some sort of economist, unlike the bankers who weren't in fact bankers, so we have to ask what does he mean by the long run, because in economic terms there is the short run, and the long run. The long run is where you can vary the means of production. What are the means of production, land, labour, and capital. Who exactly is providing expert advice to the chancellor?
The chancellor this morning was talking as though he may well be in control of the economy after the next general election, if it is held! maybe the chancellor ought to admit that he has to function in the short run, because by this time next year he, in all probability will not be in control of anything. He may have more time to check that his tax returns are in order.
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sa @ 283
"It is only a mistake in your view, my point is that its supporters would not see it in this way"
yes I grant you that; clearly someone who votes for the BNP would not consider it a mistake! ... otherwise they wouldn't do it, would they?
so, they (BNP supporters) think it's not a mistake and I think it is
just leaves YOU, doesn't it?
do YOU think a vote for the BNP is a mistake?
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sa @ 283
"The question to address isn't the failings of the BNP and its supporters but the quite deliberate ignoring of a section of the community that is disenfranchised by a powerful elite"
(1) can't we address BOTH questions?
(2) which "section" of the community are you referring to?
(3) in what way have they been disenfranchised?
(4) is the "powerful elite" the Labour government or wider than that?
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jrp @ 288
I'm not one to exaggarate, JR, you know that
I think you'll find my post 170 says a poll indicated that 22 pc said they "might" vote fascist
just a small word ... Might ... but can be key
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RE :289
I used the term multi culturalism only becuase that is the accepted term. When people use this term what they usually mean is a multi racial society where those that are new to that society do not necessarily accept the culture and values of the pre existing society.
They live for the most part "outside" for want of a better way to describe it the culture of the society they have moved into.
I have no objection to a multi racial society as long as the basic culture and values of British society are accepted by those who are priveledged enough to come here. This however has not been the case in many instances up to now. To illustrate what I mean The Telegraph is today running this story
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/6475214/Council-suspends-funding-to-schools-linked-to-Hizb-ut-Tahrir.html
I object strongly to a Govt foisting upon England, since that is where most immigrants settle, mass immigration in an attempt to fundamentally change the culture and values of our society.
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RE :291
I am afraid I am not arrogant enough to belive I have a right to say to other people that the way they use their vote is a "mistake." I believe in the right of other people to make their own choices and in a democratic state to place THEIR vote where they think fit.
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When you use the term Fascist sagamix, are you referring to Nu Labour and the Tony Blair/Berlusconi clique or the BNP ?
Milliband is an excited little boy to be able to keep using the word 'Fascist', but if he looks at his own Fabian Society roots, he'll find that the principle of eugenics was very popular among its founders.
The principle of operating a benevolent distatorship run by the intellectual elite, with democracy removed from the populace, is rather more current in their ideology. The term 'fascist' I find more applicable to Nu Labour if we're being precise. However, if you're just slinging insults about, then that's fine.
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sa @ 294
okay thanks, I see
so your problem is not that we have an ethnically diverse society per se, it's that the people living in England who are not White English are not fitting in well enough to the host White English culture
am I getting closer now?
or, to keep colour out of it, do you want to replace "White English" with a different description? ... "People Who Were Born Here" perhaps?
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293 sagamix
I'm sure you never "exaggarate", but on the other hand, your whole political being seems to be founded on your propensity to exaggerate.
First of all, whatever the limited basis of your "22 pc might vote BNP" figure, and indeed, whatever the experimental errors associated with properly conducted opinion polls might be, I really don't think that, come the general election, the national BNP vote will be over, say, 3% (albeit, possibly quite unevenly spread around the nation). Do you?
Second, I am interested in the "meaning beyond the words" in your little crusade, which, of course, has extended beyond this one single thread, after reading the discussion going on in certain more overtly Labour-supporting areas of the internet. To be as brief as I can be, Labour have a big difficulty in that a disturbingly large proportion of their core vote is deeply de-motivated and is likely to stay home at the next election. Note - not expected to float to other parties, but just to stay home. Labour also have another big difficulty, which is that quite a lot of their volunteer base is also deeply de-motivated and are also likely to stay at home. And Labour know pretty well that it is hard to solve the first problem without having previously solved the second one.
So the question in Labour circles seems to be, how do we enthuse the volunteers. And an experimental answer seems to have emerged, which is to exaggerate the electoral threat of the BNP and then try to convince the volunteers that they are going out on a mission against fascism. And of course, your little crusade (including your effort to exaggerate the possible BNP vote) seems to fit into that line of thinking extraordinarily neatly.
So, saga, let's put it this way, just out of interest, is there anything you aren't telling us?
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gomer @ 296
"When you use the term Fascist sagamix, are you referring to Nu Labour and the Tony Blair/Berlusconi clique or the BNP?"
the BNP ... I'm going with a rather boring, traditional use of language
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RE :297
Precisely that. Many of the people that have been allowed to settle in England in recent years do not accept the culture and values of this country. In fact it is fair to say that they reject it utterly as The Telegraph article clearly shows.
This of course dependent on how many immigrants take this view and how many are allowed to come in could pose a threat to the British State itself fundamentally undermining the majority populations tolerance of immigrants in general.
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sa @ 295
"I am afraid I am not arrogant enough to believe I have a right to say to other people that the way they use their vote is a "mistake.""
think we can solve this one pretty easily, Super
by "mistake" I don't mean "error" ... e.g. they tried to vote some other way but the pencil slipped
all I mean is "disagree" or "think is wrong"
so, one is allowed to disagree with how someone has voted? - to believe they are wrong to have done so?
sincerely hope so because, if not, bang goes the whole concept of the good old political argument!
yes?
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294 Superangry
Love it. Ofstead, that bunch of zealots that tried to stop two female police officers sharing their child care has given this Islamic supremacy school a good report.
You couldnt make it up.
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29 SA
Simplistically because I disgree with people voting for the BNP, I believe they are mistaken.
If I strongly disagree about anything, I inevitably think the other party is mistaken - in the same way that you think I was mistaken in my alleged arrogance.
I am not seeking to supress democracy - I can't see the problem.
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sa @ 300
got you
I have a feeling it may be the Islam thing you're particularly worried about, is that the case?
and on colour, do you see this Host Culture ... this "English" culture ... as being predominantly a white one?
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jr @ 298
picking up spellers, that's not in your usual repertoire!
as regards what's doing the rounds on the "Labour Boards" I'll have to take your word for it ... what on Earth are YOU doing lurking around such dank, depressing places?
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SuperAngry
Completely agree with your posts. What Sagamix does not understand is that you are of the mind set of the left wing side of the Labour Party when it truely represented the people who voted for them. What Sagamix represents is the Left wing Labour Party elite as he has expressed to us many times. These people no longer speak for those that were once working class Labour voters in this Country.
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RE :301
Yes I have no problem with the fact that people can disagree or think they are wrong with others who choose to use their vote for the BNP, whether it is a mistake or not is something competely different.
Re :304
Culture doesnt have a colour since no matter what colour the person they have a culture. However historically it is true that predominantly the people of England have been white though it is also true that people of colour have come here and assimilated into the culture of this country.
Possibly the reason that many people from ethnic minorities have assimilated into the culture, with some degree of ease dispite "hiccups" along the way, of this country is that they have shared a judeo christian heritage.
It seems that at least some people from an Islamic background find assimilating into the culture of this country as wrong.
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RE :306
Thank you Susan. You are completely right of course my political outlook is as you describe it.
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meninwhitecoats 303
I am afraid coats you are pretty much in the same camp as Sagamix. You disapprove of people voting for the BNP because you say immigration has brought diversity and we should celebrate. However you do not acknowledge there is a problem in this wonderful World that is built on rhetoric, in the sense that voters in high immigration areas feel abandoned. You are like the 3 main parties in that you close the debate down, but offer no solution to the obivous problem of immigration for voters. Therefore you cannot be too surprised when the voters try to find someone in this mess, that government has caused, who will represent their views. The fact that it is an extreme party does not matter, it is the fact that the BNP are the only ones acknowledging the problem. At least the only ones given any media time.
So my question is either you do not believe we have an immigration problem in which case it makes voters who live in high immigration areas wrong. Or you do and if we are not allowed to talk about it, how are we meant to solve it.
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sagamix 305
"I'll have to take your word for it.... what on Earth are YOU doing lurking around such dank, depressing places? [Labour websites]"
The implicit (rather than explicit) nature of your denial is noted. I also note no word of disagreement from you on my projection of the BNP's vote figure at the GE. As far as the question is concerned, just keeping myself informed! Are you going to try to tell me you have never had a look-in over at conhome?
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Andrew Neil@0
"Lord Stern, author of the 2006 Stern Report on the economics of dealing with global warming, tells The Times this morning that we should all become vegetarians because "meat is a wasteful use of water and creates a lot of greenhouse gasses.""
Feeding cattle Pro-biotic bacteria that grow in the Kangeroo digestive system is being researched. It stops kangeroos from trumping greenhouse gases and they hope it will do the same for Cattle. it was on QI.
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sc @ 309
"So my question is either you do not believe we have an immigration problem in which case it makes voters who live in high immigration areas wrong. Or you do and if we are not allowed to talk about it, how are we meant to solve it?"
don't know about that, Susan ... I'd say you talk of little else
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jr @ 310
"Are you going to try to tell me you have never had a look-in over at conhome?"
I'm going to actually tell you that exact thing; perhaps the mood will take me one day ... one day when I'm feeling particularly ... er, what's the word ... robust?
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Sagamix 312
That is the biggest load of hypocrisy I have heard from you yet and I thought I had heard it all from you before.
Now I suppose, after days of annoying other bloggers with your constant reference to racism, no matter what the subject, you want to change it. Could it be because you have lost the argument Saga. Dear oh dear.
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309 Susan
I make no apology for my opposition to the BNP, I concede that many people feel that they have been disenfranchised and that no-one speaks for them - that is indeed the fault of the main political parties.
I would be interested in your opinion as to at what point does someone of ethnic origin cease to be an immigrant - on naturalization, first generation, second generation?
I am concerned that the likes of the BNP are not just talking about the recent influx of for example east Europeans but about the established communities.
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Sagamix
Tell you what, I am going to a party, but I leave you to mull over another topic very much on my mind. Brown, Darling and the banks.
Now heres a very interesting one on how to try to fool the voters. You break up the banks. Yes a very good thing, better late than never, even though you are being forced into it by the EU. You only sell off the good parts leaving the toxic debt on the tax payer. You get less than you should for the good parts. Leaving all the liability with the tax payer. Now what do you think the outcome is going to be when all that toxic debt fails, which it will. The old tax payer is yet again the loser, whilst Darling and Brown can declare what clever people they are to get a small return on all that bail out money. Of course the laugh is the merger between HBOS and Lloyds, well that is called gaining votes in a by-election. Puts a new meaning on 'I have a cunning plan' doesnt it.
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Is this at last the end of the road for that pernicious tax the tv license fee
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/6475214/Council-suspends-funding-to-schools-linked-to-Hizb-ut-Tahrir.html
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RE :317
sorry all wrong link above
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/nov/01/bbc-licence-fee-bbc?CMP=AFCYAH
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sagamix - may I point you to some words that will help to inform you as to why it is a lack of moral honesty to set yourself a fixed definition of racism, and then cosider that you are then absolved from accusation for life. I consider that attitude worse than racism, it's moral imperialism.
It concerns the introduction of Shari'a Courts into the UK
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/37341
"Namazie, a feminist and communist activist who left her native Iran several years ago, charged that the courts victimize poor, immigrant women, forcing them to remain in situations where domestic abuse was common.
By bowing to political correctness, she said, the British government had abetted a terrible situation.
“Opposing shari’a is not racism,” she said. “It’s racist to demand backward, medieval laws for people living in the 20th century.”"
Do you condemn her as being racist ? Do you condemn her as being communist ? Maybe a Fascist ?
Labour don't have the right to overtule democratic rights just by shouting the word 'RACIST'. They've overused that moral blackmail tactic even to the disadvantage of those they pretend to be protecting.
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sa @ 307
okay I get it so far; you have no problem with ethnic diversity but you're worried about certain ethnic minorites (in particular Muslims) not adopting our English cultural norms
we're doing well, I think, you and I ... let's keep going for a little while longer:
(1) what sort of cultural norms? is it lack of spoken English you mainly mean? or is it more to do with other stuff? dress? food? social life? religious rituals? that sort of thing?
(2) and how do we conclude from this that the "traditional working class" has been betrayed by Labour because of Immigration?
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318 SuperAngry
Yes please! I have a bulging folder stuffed with threatening letters from the TV licence Stazi.
They keep promising to visit, my dog is most upset that they havnt.
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Saga my friend. You are good at definitions.
I see the word today is "culture".
Please define English culture.
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@ 322
Roast Beef and Yorkshire Pudding
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susan @ 316
"I am going to a party, but I leave you to mull over another topic very much on my mind. Brown, Darling and the banks"
well that's nice, honey ... try not to hang around the punch bowl
the banks? what a total disgrace the whole industry is; forget about your "too many foreigners" baloney, this is a real scandal, a scandal of the very first order
nationalise, I say
nationalise and be damned
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# 324
Nationalise the banks sagamix ?
They are nationalised.
Lord Minky can't be too demanding or where would he go for holidays ?
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323 Saga
You know when I asked the q? I had things like fish and chips, faggots and peas , cornish pasty ,jellied eels etc in mind.
Never thought before of "us" , (whoever we are?), as a nation identified by its gastronomic delights.
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gomer @ 319
you need to find a more worthwhile hobby than your current one of confusing me with the Labour government; I've told you off about it a few times already, have I not? - there's no future for us, babe, if you keep on being a cloth ears!
but anyway, to business
firstly pls refer back to 183 where I define ... no, don't I'll copy it again! ... pls see below in italics ... and we can call it an "Explanation" if Definition sounds a bit too intimidating
here we go, Gomer
Racism is ...
"a belief that people from certain racial groups other than your own are a little bit less "Human" than you are, and thus are not deserving of the same level of respect and treatment as you demand for yourself"
now then, if we apply that to the heroine of your post (this Namazie) all becomes clear and we can answer your big question
"Do you condemn her as being racist?"
doesn't fit, does it? - Namazie is NOT being racist!
what do you "think" ??
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Andrew,
would the wonderful Prime Minister, the man who I regard as having blood on his hands over funding the war and occupation of Iraq, and the continued occupation of Afghanistan, like to explain tomorrow exactly what he proposes to do about the extra soldiers who were going to be sent to Afghanistan.
At the time of his announcement he placed so many caveats on the conditions which had to be met before the soldiers were to go that surely there can be absolutely no justification for sending soldiers 'to the front' where in the words of Prince Harry they can 'do bad things to bad people' or does the Prime Minister now agree that all the bad people are now either dead or have fled, and so we can now withdraw.
Mind you at least Karzai has gone through the process of an election, something which Brown has manifestly chosen not to do. His day of reckoning gets closer, it surely can't be long.
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gp @ 325
"They are nationalised"
properly, I mean
I want them all painted the same colour ... dark green, let's say
and a mass job swap; bankers for traffic wardens
kind of our own little "Cultural Revolution" - yeah
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323. At 9:28pm on 01 Nov 2009, sagamix wrote:
@ 322
Roast Beef and Yorkshire Pudding
===
And finally we get back to this blog topic!!
About 300 degrees of separation, I would say.
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Saga
Now you have opened a new angke.
I love, and cook as best I can , many ethnic foods.
Had my first Chinese in the 1950s. Curry by the ton, especially balti recently.
Greek,Italian, South American, West Indian, Thai. Love em all.
Now do the above nationalities rave over roast beef and yorkshire pudding etc ?
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@ 331 ... no I don't believe they do; odd people, these foreigners!
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Good Evening Andrew,
with regard to the appallig and deteriorating situation now unfolding in Afghanistan may I suggest that others get hold of a coded French diplomatic cable which was sent on the 2nd September 2008.
In this cable it was said that 'within 5 to 10 years the only realistic way to unite Afghanistan would be for it to be governed by an acceptable dictator. I think you will find that the cable went on that we should think of preparing our public opinion for such an outcome.
The cable continued to say that foreign forces are the lifeline of a regime that would rapidly collapse without them. As such they slow down and complicate a possible emergence from the crisis.
Now how many British and allied soldiers have died since 2nd September 2008. How many have they killed since that date. Like I originally said about Iraq that we are the problem and never will be the solution it is time for Brown to announce, not that we are going to send reinforcements, that in fact he will announce our withdrawal. I will even allow him the gross idignity of making it an election issue, time to bring the boys home, they can do no more. One thing which is basic military doctrine, never reinforce defeat. Something which the Americans seem to have forgotten since Vietnam.
Suggest others watch 'Generation Kill', which I think is not getting the publicity it deserves because it is too close to the truth, even if it is in Iraq and not Afghanistan.TAG.
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You won't get the attention of the government TAG, notwhen they're handling issues such as their expenses.
I have to mention my amusement at finding that the independent Kelly report is sent to another independent body for scrutiny, which is overseen by another body consisting of senior MP's. Anyone see the problem there ? We have a Parliament which has a persistent defect in not understanding what the word 'independent' means. No wonder they have similar problems with more difficult words like 'racism'.
I think I can offer some means of resolution. As the intent is to impose some mondernisation on ancient and inefficient practices, may I suggest that the excellent Lord Mandelson uses his renowned powers of persuasion on the self-appointed union negotiator - Harry Harman.
Two birds with one stone ?
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Good Morning Andrew,
what do others think about having to go through the new registration process. Yet more of the surveilance society?
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Good morning each & Andrew and 'Plod'?
#335
Things move on, although a little notice would have helped.
It is all too easy to explain that change is for the best.
I too am watching them.
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Catch22 335
I am not so sure, it may be more about protecting us looking at what they are saying.
I had a little bit of difficulty getting it sorted though.
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@ 334 ... "No wonder they have similar problems with more difficult words like 'racism'."
indeed; I'm going to circulate our Definition now it's been "road tested" ... should put an end to any and all confusion
time to move on
what next? ... ah yes, a definition of Fascism (why not?) or maybe not definition this time but thumbnail portrait
so, the typical beliefs of a Fascist are:
(1) unelected dictatorship
(2) politicised plod, a.k.a. Police State
(3) excessive respect for the military
(4) mono culture (intolerance of difference)
(5) race impacts status (doh!)
(6) anger IN ... repression of minorities
(7) anger OUT ... aggression towards other countries
(8) my nation is the King of the Hill
(9) our "people" are the creme de la creme
the Nasty Nine!
these are the signs to look for when deciding whether a political party (or a person) should be described as Fascist
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A very good morning Andrew,
is this some sort of government plot. This system is not very good I'm afraid. Mind you if I didn't go through it then I would not be able to do my postings.
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Andrew,
I think that by the lack of contributors this morning others are also encountering problems, or the system has beaten them. Also time for change of tack maybe a new blog, or are you waiting for us to come up with some thread for you.
Surely one should be that Brown must make an announcement on Afghanistan, and that because nobody else seems to want to match our committments that no soldiers will be going. Furthermore that would show him taking the lead, show him being independent, show him to be what he should be, our Prime Minister.
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331. xTunbridge:
"I love, and cook as best I can , many ethnic foods.
Had my first Chinese in the 1950s. Curry by the ton, especially balti recently.
Greek,Italian, South American, West Indian, Thai. Love em all."
The problems start with fusion cooking xT... combining different styles and indigenous ingredients on one plate. I wonder if that would be allowed by the BNP? :-)
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#338
could you also give us some sort of definition of terrorism, or terrorist. Soldiers are being murdered in the war on terror, only we don't see the bodies, maybe if we did then this war (occupation) would soon end. How is that we see all the blood and gore of foreigners being blown to bits, yet oh dear, much to sensitive to show British soldiers immediately after being blown up.
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meninwhitecoats 315
Honestly coats I do not think ordinary people who intend to vote for the the BNP, think about it in the way you do. I obviously cannot speak for what agenda the BNP have. However I can understand what the people who feel abandoned by our society feel. It is very easy to have high ideals when you do not have the problem.
I will give you an example, though I usually avoid using personal cases because obviously on here people could say anything. However in this instance I think it helps to make the case. I have a friend who I still keep in contact with in an area of high immigration. I have others but we will take this case. When I spoke to her not long ago she shocked me by announcing she was voting for the BNP. Now I know she has black friends and is a tolerant person. However she also has two daughters very pretty girls. These girls are constantly harrassed by immigrants when they leave the house, something which never happened before. She has seen crime increase and the whole area being over run by immigrants. What she wants is for someone to stop this before it is too late. In this instance you could hardly call her a racist, or you can if you wish to be unreasonable. She knows that there is no party in the mainstream that has a handle on this immigration problem because she sees them arriving all the time. Labour may say they have a points system but if they do, it is not working. A lot I suppose are illegal, I do not know. The police either are too scared to take this problem in hand because of the label of racist or they do not care. For immigrants the law is not being enforced properly, no matter how much they say they are persecuted. This is just a means to get their own way in our society. It is like Gomers example of how immigrants are being allowed to avoid womens rights.
This is before you get to the pressure on our services, housing, jobs, the unwanted change this has brought to our society. Some parts do not even look like England anymore. This would not be allowed to happen in any other Country that I know of. These people have no intention of integrating. They resist speaking our language or taking on the laws of this land.
The birth rate amongst immigrants is much higher so the increase in population will in time be unsustainable. England is a very small Country. There will be high levels of poverty in England and our welfare system will not cope.
I spoke to a friend in Scotland as well recently, they are just noticing that levels of immigration are increasing there as well. A lot from poland and elsewhere, I have to say they are not happy about it either, saying they are starting to take the jobs and housing. They do not want to end up like England.
I do not believe in England it is about race anymore, if it ever was. I believe a lot of English people see it as a matter of survival of their culture and their ability to celebrate calling themselves English. The reason is that the Labour Government has legislated to advantage minorities all the time. When anyone objects they are labelled a racist and silenced.
Now you may call me a racist or my friend a racist, but the problem remains rumbling on in our society. Unless you want to see more unpleasant things happen, I believe it is better to acknowledge the problem and set about solving it. None of the main parties will so, it is left to someone else to do it for them and because the BNP get the most media attention it will most probably be them.
However I am an English Democrat and I put my faith in them, they are a moderate party campaigning mainly for an English Parlaiment. However, they have acknowledged the immigration problem in a reasonable way. Why do the media not give them more air time.
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@ 342
hi, like your name! ... one of my favourite books as a teenager
terrorism?
that's quite an easy one:
terrorism is ...
the deliberate killing and maiming of innocent people in order to achieve political ends
like we've been doing in Iraq
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I do not know if anyone saw the hapless Alan Johnson being interviewed on Sky by Adam Bolton. Talk about losing his cool his face went so red I thought he was going to die, when asked about professor Nutt.
This is another example of bully tactics by Labour, if you do not like the message then silence the one providing it. Fortunately for us Nutt is not a man to go quietly. To think Labour thought of Johnson as a possible next leader, gives you some idea of the lack of talent in the Party.
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Sagamix 344
Now for once you bring up a decent point on being a racist. I believe it is racist to go about the World imposing your democracy on other Countries. Just as we in Britain have a right to have our culture, so do other Countries. Yet we have a Labour Government which decides it has the right to enforce by bullets on others, our own smug ideas of democracy.
Britain used to accuse Russia and other such Countries of doing this, now we are no better.
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...catch22, if you would prefer a more in depth appraisal of 'terrorist' you should look at 'wikileaks'.
Exporting Democracy.
We need to have one before we can sell the idea abroad.
What a shock and surprise it would be to the wider world if only we could demonstrate that Democracy can bring about change peacefully at the ballot box.
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susan @ 346
why, thank you!
but forget that for a second; I'd like to comment on your 343
and the main thing I want to say ... since I think we'll both benefit from me saying it ... is that there's nothing too obviously horrible (in my view) about the sentiments you're expressing there - I'm sure you don't need reassurance of that but if you do, please check against the definition of racism per 183 and you will receive it
you're relaying what sounds like an authentic experience (shared by many, I'm sure) and you're drawing conclusions from it as to what needs to be done - no problem with that, babe, no problem at all - you have every right to hold those views and to post them (which you do and do!)
as a Clear Thinking Progressive, however, I don't agree with you and I guess you wouldn't expect me to; where I part company from you :-( is on two main aspects:
(1) the relative size and importance (in the national context) of the problem you describe
(2) the best way to solve it
we will return to this, you and I
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343 Croftie
Phew, signed in ok but no joy on comments . Eventually got a flag saying I hadnt signed Broadcasting House Treaty in blood. What is going on? Why Does the Beeb feel no need to explain why it is doing this ? I had to do all this when the blogs were closed for maintenance a little while ago.
Anyway Croftie another difference between "them" and "us" is if they decide they dont like it here any more they can go home. What do we do ?
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sc @ 346
"Now for once you bring up a decent point on being a racist"
compliment acknowledged per 348 but I shouldn't have really ... a definition of "terrorism" wasn't it? ... no reference to racism unless things are coming out different on your screen
you're seeing the race issue everywhere, Susan, and it's hampering debate
or is it a special screen? in which case, not your fault and I take it back
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Has anyone noticed that Darling was strongly rsisting any breakup or interference in banking operations after the bale out, but after the EU stuck its oar in, the nationalised banks are now being ripped apart like carrion ?
The question to be answered is, did Darling understand that the measure of support he gave them would lead to this ? - and how will this affect their ability to repay the taxpayer funds, especially as we now hear that we are injecting another thirty billion pounds of taxpayer money into them ?
This tragedy/catastrophe is far from over, and what we get left with once it's finished is far from clear. I'm getting concerned as to whether or not we'll ever see any of our money again.
The danger is that Darling may have just squished our money down the drain, and is squishing some more. Bonuses all round eh ?
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My concern is that if the EU are treating Darling's bank funding as unfair and anti-competitive support, then our money's gone, as if he gambled and lost, or he made the wrong choice and wasted his investment.
The EU's concern isn't the preservation of UK taxpayer investment. Their interest is whether the funding represents unfair and uncompetitive support, and putting the banks into a situation as if they hadn't been supported. This will make them much less able to repay the taxpayer, and begs the question as to whether or not Darling didn't make entirely the wrong decisions at the outset.
What the EU is requiring now, is what Darling should have done. The likelihood of recouping much money from the sale of these hived off pieces of banks is hopeful at best and I'd gurantee that the accounts they will be offering will be fee paying.
I foresee trouble ahead - but I usually do.
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#351
the trouble is that 1929 is actually being repeated. In 1928/29 there were earlier crashes, although they couldn't be measured because there was no index. By the time the big crash came in October 1929 there was no money left to bale out the 'investors'. It will be exactly the same, let go, let banks collapse, let asset values fall, raise taxes for those still in employment, and have negative interest rates for savers.
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Saga
Terrorism requires terrorists. What is a terrorist ?
Some previously called terrorists now hold or have held high offfice in the country they freed by their terrorism. Isreal, Kenya, South Africa spring instantly to mind.
"Our" terrorists usuallly make a pigs ear of things , although the IRA must surely be given some cridit for Improvements in N.Ireland.
Go back far enough and Guy Fawkes and his mates were fighting against religious oppression but failed. When the House of Commons burned down accidentally a couple of hundred years later thousands gathered outside and cheered.
So what is terrorism and what is freedom fighting ? The International Brigade that backed the losing side in the Spanish civil war would be insurgents these days yet they are still seen as heroic failures.Perhaps because the "wrong"ide won and Spain became facsist.
Perhaps the key is oppression. Oppression invites a reaction and as it is usually a minority or weaker opponent then they are more likely to use
extreme action, as the fixed ballot box is no use to them.
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Sagamix 350
I can see you have another problem, which is called, you cannot see when one is using a form of irony to turn your post on yourself. It was not a compliment. You see you talk endlessly about racism but what you cannot see is that Labour, the Government whose policies you support, are the biggest racists of all.
Your efforts, on the other hand, to turn my posts on me are not working because everyone knows you have an obsession about racism.
Your definition of racism has been blown out of the water because it is incorrect, yet you still persist in trying to make it fit your definition and not its true definition, which I gave in an earlier post.
I did try to change the topic to the banks, however your knowledge seems to even less on this subject.
It must be very difficult to live with tunnel vision, however you seem to manage it somehow.
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361 and 352 gomerpyle
A year ago when the bail out was put together did Darling or Brown actually speak to the EU Competition Commission? I remember them over ruling UK competition legislation rather casually.
The problem now is the Stock Exchange is uncertain and both RBS and Llooyds are being hammered which is unfortunate as they had stabilisedof late. It also does not help that they have not made up their minds yet, and are wondering aloud which only foments speculation in the markets.
I share your concerns about what we have invested. Btw the Times reports that RBS's nationalised stake has increased but the BBC neglects to report this fact. Odd that.
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xTunbridge 349
I had terrible trouble signing in this morning, I am hoping it will be ok once I sign out and in again, we will see.
With terrorism it comes back to that old saying 'one mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist' The difficulty I have is it is always the innocent that suffer. It is not really the same as Guy Fawkes, he set about destroying the institution he felt was to blame, terrorists target the innocent to get what they want. Two totally different things in my book. Whilst we live in a World where terrorists are rewarded for terrible deeds as in the case of the IRA and Megrahi, we will never solve the problem. I do not believe peace should be achieved at any price. Because the price that is paid is never by Governments it is paid by the small people just trying to live their lives.
Let us take Che Guevara a man much used on posters and a pin up, I believe even Obama in his ignorance has a poster of him. The man was a mass murder and a butcher, yet the years have made him some kind of hero. What about all those innocent lives he took to obtain his goal. It makes no sense to me.
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Andrew,
it is becoming more obvious with each passing day that ministers do not want to appear on programmes which may cause them a problem. I still don't think that there has been a satisfactory solution to the problem of Baroness Scotland.
As for drugs, and cannabis in particular, then maybe the obvious individual to question would be Jack Starw, who could fill us all in on aspects of the effects drugs have on family members.
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GomerPyle 352
I have always said and nothing has changed my blief that these banks should have been broken up, outside interests sold off, before any bail out was attempted. This would have achieved two things, ensured competition stayed in the market and that the banks knew they could not rely on tax payer money when difficulties arise. We know that the merger between Lloyds and HBOS was done to keep votes and jobs in Scotland. The big question is what were Lloyds thinking of in taking on this merger. Toxic debt should have been identified and separated and run off, before any tax payer money was involved. Yes it would have meant a lot of pain, but also it would have saved a lot of tax payer money that we will never see again. The Government dithered far too long after Northern Rock to try to find a plan to cover their mistakes and for Brown to declare he had saved the banks.
Now we are in this situation the good part of the banks should be sold with the bad in any breakup. However the Government is intent on selling only the good which leaves all the liability with the tax payer for future years of debt, as the toxic debt begins to fail.
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xtun @ 354
"So what is terrorism and what is freedom fighting?"
good question (especially for a Monday)
in practice, people tend to describe terrorism in the name of a cause they like as "Freedom Fighting" ... witness George Bush and Tony Blair
eye of the beholder stuff, in other words
I think we should stick to how I've defined it ... to deliberately kill and maim innocent people in the pursuit of political ends is Terrorism, regardless of what those ends are
also regardless of whether you're wearing a uniform or not (and which uniform)
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Andrew,
how very interesting. All this furore over johnson, and yet the Prime Minister is going to make a statement in the House about the European summit which has just been held. Now which event will get the most coverage in the media.
Maybe Brown ought to make a formal statement to the House on Afghanistan, the election there, and troop numbers and what the role of our presence will be now that Karzai has been exposed for what he is, and always was. No more soldiers taking risks in that appalling country. Brown has more blood on his hands than Blair did in Iraq.
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Re :320
You really do like to close down the debate dont you Saga. At no point did I say "in particular Muslims". To say one is worried about Muslims is as ridiculous as saying that one is worried about Christians as they are not homogenous groupings.
What is true however is that there is a section within the Muslim community who do not accept that this country has a traditionally christian heritage and are intent on overturning it.
These people do not accept the cultural values of our society including Democracy, Freedom, cultural tolerance etc etc. I would call these things the cultural norms of our society as I would its traditionally christian values. I am sure others could add to this list.
You ask how we conclude from this that the tradional working class has been betrayed by Labour on immigration so I will answer as best I can.
The reason that to a large extent ethnic diversity has been relatively successful in this country is becuase there has been a consensus amongst the public that those who are in need of a safe haven should be allowed to settle here. For the most part the ethnic diversity of this country has developed in an almost "organic" or "natural" fashion because of it. There has been an unspoken commitment almost,that immigration should not destabilize, for want of a better word, the social values of this nation.
However the Labour Party calculated that mass immigration would radically alter the country allowing them to diversify the country to a far greater extent than the existing "traditional British" were ever informed of or were prepared to accept. Whether you accept Andrew Neathers explanation of this is by the by the facts on immigration speak for themselves.
Now by its very nature immigration impacts poorer areas of society to a greater extent than any other specifically becuase those that have been allowed to come here for the most part settle in those areas. It is these areas that therefore bare the brunt of any social problems that immigration brings with it.
We might call these areas "traditionally working class" if you like. The other effect of mass immigration has been to hold down wage inflation to the detriment of those working class areas therefore undermining the earning potential of those people
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susan @ 355
"It must be very difficult to live with tunnel vision"
a clear thinking progressive with tunnel vision! ... unheard of
X-ray eyes is what they told me last time I had a check up
and I use them too
so, you know ... here's looking at YOU kid
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"Labour made mistakes over immigration, Alan Johnson admits"
The Labour Party are racist it appears.
He has outlines four major principles to deal with the issue, one of which is
"Other countries are affected by the problems caused by immigration"
He could have added that water is wet and that fire is hot.
If I may pass on some tactical advice, I'd suggest that if he admits to failure, he'd better propose something credible as a solution, or he only emphasises his inability to handle the problem.
It is a concern that Labour have lost the ability to argue their point. They're floudering so badly, they're barely coherent.
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Susan@355
I know you & Xtun have been speculating but I think I have cracked it - maybe Saga's a mole - they have tunnel vision!
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sa @ 362
close down debate? far from it ... I was (and remain!) keen to continue this discussion with you
so, thank you for what you've posted there
now then:
(1) you object (in para 1) to me deducing that you are "particularly concerned" about the lack of integration in the Muslim community, but then in paras 2 and 3 you confirm you ARE exactly that - so I don't see the problem; just say clearly what you think, SA, and I'll take it at face value - I'm not trying to twist anything - okay, so you're concerned about the integration of ethnic minorities generally and particularly so as regards certain sections of the Muslim community - large sections of that community you must mean, I guess, otherwise you wouldn't be as worried about it as you clearly are - cool with that?
(2) then Labour's motives for their Immigration policy; you believe there's been a systematic plan to force feed the country with increased ethnic diversity (yes?) ... ram it down the throats of the indigenous population ... but why? (would they want to do that) - what are the motives in your view? and why on Earth do you choose that over the simpler (economic) interpretation? please remember that until the (very recent) onset of this severe and unforecasted downturn, we had labour/skill shortages in this country and the consensus across pretty much all the political parties was that we NEEDED an influx of newcomers (migrants, in other words)
(3) holding down wages; if employers are exploiting the recession in order to underpay people (and I'm sure some of them are) isn't it better to look at ways to prevent them doing that, rather than to blame an oversupply of people who are ripe for exploitation?
(4) you don't raise the oft mentioned complaint about immigrants "going straight to the front" of the housing and benefits queue and I congratulate you on that - can I please confirm, however, that the reason you didn't mention it is because you don't believe it and not that you just forgot
(5) you say that in years gone by our successful assimilation of migrants has been achieved because of our sense of fair play, in particular that we've recognised people's need for a safe haven - well I agree with you to an extent ... it's certainly played its part and three cheers for that ... BUT you are surely ignoring the fact that many (perhaps most) of the people who have come from other parts of the world to settle here have done so not for safe haven "fleeing persecution" reasons, but for economic "I want a better life for me and my family" reasons - no?
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360. At 1:12pm on 02 Nov 2009, sagamix wrote:
xtun @ 354
"So what is terrorism and what is freedom fighting?"
A minefield, this one...
Try this. Exactly what they say they are.
Freedom fighting: Fighting for rights which are accepted by the UN's charter, like the freedom to vote for self-determination or a universal suffrage.
Terrorism: using terror to achieve an idealogical or political goal.
So a 'freedom fighter' may employ 'terrorism' but can claim their 'cause' is a universally accepted one. Whether the ends justify the means is another debate.
In 'pure' terrorism that distinction is missing, although the perpetrators may see their cause as just, be it religious or political, it is not universally acceptable.
That is why Israel's post war 'terrorists' cannot be seen in the same light as the PAC/ANC in South Africa or other colonial struggles for independence. The Zionist movement's claims are based on ancient religious testimony. Legitimate in Israel's eyes but not in large parts of the world. Just as imposing one religious dogma on a society is not 'freedom fighting'. Everyone has the right to practice their own religion, just as we all have the right to a vote.
Have I opened up another can of worms here??
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@ 365
"maybe Saga's a mole"
a clear thinking progressive mole ... I like it!
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357 Croftie
Yes, history can make a Che Guevara a romantic hero although a lot of heros have a murky past.
367 The BlameGame
It is a big can Sir.
As it was self determination the Tamils got anhilated for seeking I guess that makes the Tigers freedom fighters ?
In fact there are numerous self determination struggles going on, Tibet for one. And God knows how many in Africa.
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blame @ 367
"Have I opened up another can of worms here?"
no, it's good ... we need TWO definitions, don't we?
1. terrorism
the deliberate killing and maiming of innocent people in pursuit of political ends
2. freedom fighting
fighting for rights which are accepted by the UN's charter, like the freedom to vote for self determination or a universal suffrage
and then we can say:
- you can be a terrorist AND a freedom fighter; if you fit both definitions (early Mandela?)
- you can be a terrorist ONLY; if you fit 1 but not 2 (Bader Meinhof)
- you can be a freedom fighter ONLY; if you fit 2 but not 1 (Ghandi or, at a pinch, Alex Salmond)
- you can be NEITHER; most of the general public (Stevie Gerrard, say, to name just the one)
and finally, whether one supports any particular terrorism (per 1) and/or freedom fighting (per 2) ... the Ends justify the Means (or not) type judgement ... is purely a matter for the individual
yes, that's excellent
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Aaaaaah I see what Alan Johnson is doing - it's the same as sagamix.
He's defining the issue on his own terms and not offering a solution, in spite of owning up to being responsible for creating the problem.
As a political argument, it can only be described as an admission of defeat. As a response to the BNP, it's a white flag of surrender.
It's difficult to believe that Labour have a strategy. Admitting culpability without offering any answer is worse than ignoring the problem.
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369. xTunbridge
Tamils? If they're a minority in a democracy whose basic freedoms have not been compromised then it would be hard to argue their case.
It doesn't appear to be that straightforward though... the Tamils allege that they are marginalised by the Sinhalese. Whether they have a legitimate case for the violent campaign they have waged I cannot say, I don't have enough knowledge on the subject.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
meninwhitecoats 365
Yes I like that, I like that a lot, a good little play on words and probably true as well.
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gp @ 371
"I see what Alan Johnson is doing - it's the same as sagamix"
if only, Gomer ... if only
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RE :366
1 You are wrong what you suggested was that I was worried about the Muslim population of this country in its totality and that is NOT the case as I think I clearly pointed out.
(2) As to your second point about the skills base of society it would have some validity if the Govt had specifically gone out of its way to recruit only people to fill this skills gap. This is clearly not the case otherwise it would not have needed to have an open door policy. Therefore your argument is I am afraid specious.
(3) Following on from 2 it clearly follows that if the Govt has deliberately allowed mass immigration not to fill only a skills gap it has allowed in migrants who would be competing for work with the "traditional British" who do not have those skills in the first place, due to the failings in our education system. Hence why I say the overall effect has been to hold down the wages of the "traditional British."
(4) I didnt mention specifically the Housing situation no. Again it is a reasonable assumption I suggest though, that since low skilled migrants have been allowed to come to this country and those people would have settled mainly in working class areas they would also be competing for housing putting added pressure on the delivery of services. To what extent there has been a policy to provide housing for migrants as against others its difficult to say. I can only give you anecdotal evidence from the experience of my own family. For instance my nephew was told he would have to wait 6 years before the council would even consider housing him due to a shortage of available housing. I would suggest however that it is highly unlikely that the Govt would keep migrants in some of the centres they are maintained in for 6 six years. Therefore it might be reasonalbe to suggest that at least in some instances immigrants are given priority over the "tradional British." In fact I think the Govt conceded this point recently when it said that the population of this country should be given priority over immigrants in ragards to housing.
(5) Yes you are right that this country has taken economic migrants in past years but again the overall effect has maintained the traditional values of British Society. What is clear is immigration whether from Asylum or economics has NEVER reached the levels that have been seen over recent years and which for all the reasons we have discussed are having a destabilizing effect in many ways.
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Sagamix 366
Again you are trying twist the facts to suit yourself. Yes there is and still will be a skill shortage in Britain. Mainly in engineers, scientists, etc, the reason is that the education system is not geared up to the needs of employment. For years Labour have dumbed down education and allowed easy degrees to be taken which are no use to anyone.
However the people allowed into this Country were mainly unskilled. Instead of getting our people on benefits back to work Labour chose to just open the borders to immigrant workers. Thus people from Poland etc did undercut wages and worked much cheaper. Now you can claim some our people would not work, however Labour did very little to encourage them to do so. It is to be remembered though a lot of immigrants do not work either. Your assertion that the recession caused the problem is untrue.
Furthermore there does seem to have been a plan by Labour to increase immigration for political reasons. Why would Neathers lie, it has got him into a lot of hot water.
We have had a problem with immigration in this Country for a very long time. Labour must have been very aware that creating jobs in the public sector was no substitute for jobs in the private. This imbalance was bound to come home to roost. Unless you are telling me Brown is totally inept, well of course you are probably right.
It does not matter whether immigrants get housing or services before our people, the fact is the pressure on these two things will cause terrible problems in the future. It would only be fair to house our people first.
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saga 370
You have summed it up there mate.
In fact it is ver difficult to define and depends entirely on the circumstances of the struggle which can be constantly changing.
The only certainty? The winning underdogs are always freedom fighters.
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372 TheBlameGame
Like yourself I do not have enough knowledge on the Tamils but something there sounds a bit wrong.
I think there is little doubt that the way the govt went about ending the
Tamils opposition was horrific and resulted in many Tamil deaths. We have all seen the summary executions on the TV news. That has all gone quiet hasnt it.
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Freedom fighter or terrorist, no difference in the end.
It is very easy for me, anyone who kills innocent people is a murderer, no matter what their cause and should be treated as such. However when you reward those who kill innocents by giving them what they want, you encourage all extremists to go down this route. Most people who claim to be freedom fighters are only trying to grab power for themselves. This usually leaves ordinary people not a great deal better off. Thus all the despots all over the World.
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"The schooling (of the Taliban at its inception) was provided by religious parties, particularly the Jamiat-ul-ulema-e-Islam, a fundamentalist part that espouses the most puritanical, restrictive and harsh interpretation of Islamic jurisprudence, variously called Deobandi (in India and Pakistan), Wahabi (in Saudi Arabia), and Hanbali (one of the recognized four schools of Sunni fiqh-jurisprudence)."
--------------------
Dr. Saleem Qureshi is a professor emeritus of Middle East politics in the University of Alberta Department of Political Science
====================
The government can never accuse the Taliban of being a terrorist organisation or it would be setting itself at odds with the Jamiat-ul-ulema-e-Islam who are well established in the UK.
Politics and morals are never clear cut, and that's why the issue over who we're fighting in Afghanistan is confused, if you are ever expecting a straight answer from the government.
The government's politically correct domestic policy is not matched by its foreign policy and that concerns me.
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381 Gomerpyle
Now you have got me thinking. Does this mean that the Taliban are religious Zealots fired by this J-u--u-e-I sect ?
If so does that mean there is a well establish branch of Islam in Britain that spawned the Taliban?
You know the most repressive govts are those that have a religious influence. The Western govts have , in some cases quite recently, magage to dump any church influence and I think that is all to the good.
The Middle East and onward towards Pakistan are going the other way and look at the repression.
You can understand the fear of Catholicism in this country for about 400 years. PLease say this latest religious difference isn going to last as long.
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sa @ 376
right, thanks
I give you:
- that too many immigrants can place a strain on housing and social services
- that the above IS happening in certain places of high concentration
- that an influx of people from overseas willing to work hard for poor wages benefits unscupulous employers and disadvantages certain sections of the indigenous population
- that the above IS happening in certain places; in particular deprived working class communities where a disproportionate number of immigrants happen to have settled
- and to the extent that all of the above is happening, it's a problem and the Labour government shoulders a large part of the blame for it - not so much (IMO) for the immigration policy itself but for a lack of planning around it, and ... Big Point, for me ... for a lack of targeted investment in the areas most affected - because I look at it that way (as primarily an economic issue) the solutions I favour are economic ones - controlled immigration within the confines of our obligations is, btw, a perfectly good policy as far as I'm concerned
we're then left, you and I, with a disagreement as to the relative importance of the problem in the national context - we can maybe debate that some other time - a lot depends on where you happen to live, I guess - I live in central London, for example, and that shapes my view to some extent, I have no doubt of that - same for you, I suppose - where you live is giving you a certain slant on things, I would imagine - or maybe not ... one shouldn't presume things, should one?
okay, so c'est ca
on this point as to whether you have a particular concern about the ability and desire of the Muslim community (certain sections thereof) to integrate, let's leave it - it's semantics and I think we both know what you mean
which leaves me with just a couple of outstandings:
(1) open door immigration policy
we have obligations under EU and International Law to take people in - the EU is truly "open door" and the International obligation relates to asylum seekers - over and above that, we take people if they meet various criteria for settling here - the criteria are neither particularly strict nor particularly lenient, as far as I can see - "open door" is far from what it is ... not the policy that's for sure ... so where is that phrase coming from?
(2) the masterplan to ethnicise the White British
easily my biggest remaining problem with what you're saying; how can you give credence to this when (a) we agree that it's not a race issue? and (b) the consensus was we needed migrants for economic reasons? and (c) we had to let large numbers of people in to satisfy our EC and international obligations? and (d) around 90 pc of this country's population is White British?
sure, you can make a case that the Government lost control of the borders through incompetence (quelle surprise, right?) and we ended up with more illegal immigrants than we should have done - I'll go for that - I'll even buy that the policy (over and above our legal obligations) was maybe too loose (debatable, for sure) but to say, as you are saying, that we've seen a systematic liberal left masterplan to radically alter the ethnic makeup of the country in favour of minorities and against the White British, I'm sorry but that's drifted into the realms of fantasy - dangerous fantasy too because it plays into the hands of some very unsavoury people
so there we are
we've come a long way, I think, and thanks for your time so far
if you can just accept that the Immigration Policy (if not the practice) wasn't "open door" and ... MOST IMPORTANT! ... either drop, or at least promise me you'll have a rethink about, the "Evil Masterplan" then I'll be Happy Harry and Content Charlie
Cock up not Conspiracy, SA, that's what it boils down to
yes?
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Before the 'introduction' of the Taliban form of Islam, Afghanistan had a enjoyed very tolerant version. It's hard not to draw a connection to Saudi Arabi and their similarly strict form of Wahabi Islam. The strong implication is that US social engineering was applied to suit their political and military aims at the time, and it has back fired badly.
Sending our troops into a Muslim country that has close affiliations religiously, with a large body of immigrants in your own country, is both lacking in racial sensitivity and somewhat foolish, especially when it's not clear who your're fighting.
US policy was planned, and that went badly wrong. I hope the unplanned policy of the UK government works out better.
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380. Susan-Croft:
"Freedom fighter or terrorist, no difference in the end."
I saw this one coming. :-)
If only it were that simple, Susan.
Put yourself in the following position, very difficult I know, but give it a go - bearing in mind it's probably worse than I describe it.
You are a third class 'citizen' in the country of your birth, ruled by a racial minority (for the purposes of this example) ...
* you have NO vote with NO legal recourse to change that situation;
* you are forced to carry identification, if caught without it you are jailed, no questions asked;
* your movements are restricted, you require permission to travel outside of your local authority;
* you are discriminated against at every turn, restricted to areas and inferior facilities designated for your 'race' only;
* you have limited access to a higher education and there are no opportunities to earn a 'decent' wage.
* you know of people who have 'disappeared' without trace, never to be seen again;
* there are absolutely no indications that the situation will improve in your lifetime... you cannot rely on any external/international support, basically you are enslaved within your own country.
Now given that non-violent protest is illegal and comes with inevitable beatings and short term incarceration, long term if repeated, would you deny those such as yourself the right to take a more direct approach in seeking to disrupt the status quo, targeting government and public installations and facilities, even in the knowledge that members of the public may be injured or killed?
Do you still say that there should be no alternative to non-violent protest?
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xtun, gomer, susan, oudeis, tag (et al et al)
guys, this Immigration thing:
there are two main reasons (that I can see) to be concerned about immigration
(a) the numbers game; the fact that too many people (both nationally and in certain towns and cities) can place a strain on things like infrastructure, housing and social sevices - applies regardless of the ethnic background of the people we're talking about
(b) the culture clash; the fact that certain sections of certain ethnic minority communities may either not be able to (or not want to) integrate too well into our traditional "British Way of Life"
so, can I ask you please which of the following applies to you?
(1) you worry about BOTH and (a) more than (b)
(2) you worry about BOTH and (b) more than (a)
(3) you worry about BOTH equally
(4) you worry about (a) only
(5) you worry about (b) only
(6) you worry about NEITHER
and please just sock it to me; don't worry about what I might make of it and try not to think of me as some sort of blogging manifestation of the New Labour Government (I'm way to the Left of them, believe me) - I'm not interested in "twisting" anything (Susan) or scoring juvenile debating points, really I'm not
and just to demonstrate my Uberrima Fides, I'll go first
I'm a (4)
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RE: 383
I am glad to see you accept many of the arguments put forward so far. One might add at last lol.
As to whether there was or wasnt an "open door immigration policy." If the rules surr