Seven months for The Sun to boost Cameron
The Sun is not the force it was in British elections ("It's the Sun wot won it" the paper plausibly claimed after the Tories' surprise narrow victory in 1992) but this morning's decision to switch its allegiance back to the Tories (it supported the Tories from 1979 and switched to Labour in 1997) is significant nevertheless, primarily because it has been done so far in advance of the election.
The Sun's political influence doesn't come from its partisan coverage of the election campaign or its final editorial endorsing its favourite. It comes from its day in, day out, week in, week out championing of the leader and party it wants to win, and constant rubbishing of those it wants to lose.
The reason it had very little influence in the 2005 election was that, for months before, it couldn't really make up its mind who it wanted to win and, as the election approached, came out only half-heartedly for Labour. As a result, it influenced few minds on polling day.
Contrast that with its relentless support for Margaret Thatcher and the Tories in the 1980s and daily attacks on Neil Kinnock ("the Welsh Windbag"), who it regularly portrayed as unfit to run the country. This constant barrage of pro-Tory and anti-Labour propaganda encouraged Sun readers to take a certain view of British politics and when it came to the close-run election of 1992 it had clearly influenced those who couldn't quite bring themselves to vote for Kinnock, even though they were disillusioned with the Tories.
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The Sun will be influential again if it now puts its firepower at the service of David Cameron and the Tories -- and turns on Gordon Brown and Labour. I'm assuming an election on the first Thursday of May. That gives the Sun seven months to boost Cameron/Tories and disparage Brown/Labour. It is that prospect that dismayed Labour election strategists and ministers last night -- and had the Tories chuckling with relish.
Mr Cameron has kept his distance from Sun proprietor Rupert Murdoch, though he gets on well with his son, James.
But he knows the value of the Sun campaigning on the Tory leader's behalf among its working class and Middle Britain readership. The Sun of the late 1970s and early 1980s did much to make Margaret Thatcher, who seemed shrill and rather upper-middle class, appealing to ordinary voters. If the Sun now attempts to do the same for Mr Cameron, an old Etonian, then it will be a potent force in the run up to the election. If it also "does a Kinnock" on Mr Brown then the Tories will benefit from a double whammy.
In the multi-channel, internet age, with tabloid circulations declining, newspapers are not the power they were and the Sun will never again be as influential as it was in the 1980s. But it still sells around 3m copies a day, giving it around 9m readers. Its decision to put its weight behind the Tories is a major boost to Mr Cameron and a body blow to Mr Brown. Readers of this blog should not be surprised, however: we told you the Sun would abandon Labour many moons ago.
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~01~RS~)
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DC has missed a golden opportunity to pickup Brownie points as a shadow government over the last 12 years,hence, I can't see the Torys doing anything spectacular as a SG, just look at the PFI debacle as a good example.
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Good Morning Andrew,
just listened to 'Lord' Kinnock on the Radio 5 phone in this morning. I could feel his rage, his anger, what a brilliant Prime Minister he would have made. What I fail to understand is that I can't vote for Brown, I can't vote for anybody other than my own constituency MP. I can't vote for 'Lord' Kinnock, or anybody else. The Sun cannot force me to vote for or against anybody, they can influence me, but I still have a choice. Actually I cannot vote against anybody, I can only vote for somebody. It is none of the above I'm afraid. That is unless I stand myself as an Independent. An interesting thought. Trouble is I have to find ten others to support me before I stand on the platform, and then I would be possibly obligated to them. Am I an insurgent and not the encumbent.
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Ref 2 TA Griffin
let me be the first to offer my support for you as an Independent MP for Exeter. At least I know you would get to the truth on the the PFI scam,contaminated cement and you might even get my lifetime email ban lifted. By the way EH, I can vouch for Taggy as being TA Griffin but I wish to remain in the dark for the time being.
Go for it Taggy, you CANT be any worse than Bradshaw and the Tory wannabe MP.
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Andrew,
I notice that you have put in some links to the Sun in your blog. Is this allowed, or is it one rule for the blogger and another for the commenteers. Can we have clarification please.
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All I can say is that if the Sun really has that big of an influence, maybe it's time for me to leave.
It's a rag of the worst order, and people's votes can be swayed by it?
That's bloody depressing.
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Not sure that editorials in Newspaper actually get people to change their vote, it is more the background music of the country's mood that gets reflective back.
Although, I do agree with the Sun that Labour has lost it. This change theme that GB is trying to do introduce would have worked better with a new leader at the helm as it did for John Major in 1992 and that Labour Sheffield rally. Of course, Gordon could have won the 'lost' election in 2007, but proved incapable of being bold, as Jim Callaghan could have done if he had gone to the country in 1978 before the Winter of Discontent.
Paxo did a great interview with Ed Milliband last night, where he pointed out that a lot of promises GB is making, were in the 1997 manifesto. Chancellor for 10 years and PM for 2 years and he is now promising the same.
Next week, Cameron can deliver real change by being bold, but will we see it?
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So many of the Sun's readers are going to be among the undecided and those who protest voted against Labour in the recent EU elections, that the Sun's decision is bound to have some effect on their voting choices at the General Election. Also, the timing of the declaration could not have been more damaging.
DC & Co must have had a very good night's sleep.
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Andrew has summed it up perfectly (no surprise there then!) On TV this morning, the PM said that it was peoples' opinions that mattered, not newspapers. How does he think we form our opinions? We read, and watch, and listen to commentators, pundits, so called experts, etc.etc.
The Sun's endorsement of Cameron is a massive blow to Labour's prospects and must be hugely disappointing.
It will be interesting to watch Cameron perform at the Tory Conference. He mustn't sound too complacent but anything he does will out-perform yesterday's mediocre performance by the PM. When will he learn that we are not impressed by his conjecture of what the Tories would have done had they been in power. The fact is that they weren't, he was, and his stewardship of the country's finances was found wanting as was his supervision of the finance industry. That's why he will lose the election.
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Well it probably is a boost to the Tories but I doubt the Sun has enough influence to swing the result.
We have six months of politicians with vegetable heads to look forward to.
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Here's the conundrum. Am I a free thinking individual who can make his own mind up and then read newpapers etc to find either support for my own views or cogently argued counter arguments, or am I so vacuous that I need to be told what to think and how to act by somebody (an individual or newspaper mogul) who professes to know better than me?
Hmmmm, tough one.
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Post 2
Whilst all that you say is true, it really is overly pedantic. Everyone knows what is being said and what voting for your local representative actually means, so I'd suggest you grow up.
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I can imagine Rupert Murdoch getting on the blower after watching Brown's speech and giving the green light. No matter what Brown said or did during conference the decision was final, otherwise you would expect this decision to be made after the Tory conference and not the Labour one. I'm a Conversative but i think it is a disgrace to democracy that one man has so much influence over the political views of a country.
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Having read the first few comments, I am not sure what gives me cause for greater despair. Is it the devaluation of politics by newspaper oligarchs, who somehow continue to manage to hoodwink the public into supporting their own vested interests? Or is it the illiterate, self-serving nonsense that passes for comment on websites such as this?
When national figures such as Cameron and Osborne continue to play their student politics with issues as serious as the economy of a nation, perhaps it's no wonder that the standard of debate has fallen to such puerile levels. I find it all utterly depressing.
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#8
surely if the purpose is for the papers only to print news then they will no longer carry reports of the labour party and their plans, no government announcements because these things are not news, they are just government propaganda. So, yes Brown is right, let us just see the news, the news, and nothing but the news. Funny how Harriet harman failed to mention Baroness Scotland as one of the most succesful black and asians now in the government, and doing such a good job, she did mention Keith Vaz, so why not Patricia Scotland.
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Andrew,
Crash Gordon and his happy family finally seem to realise that they will be judged for what they have done in the past and not the empty promises for the future. The Sun and other newspapers can help by regularly reminding people about the failures, the wastage, the scandals and so on.
It doesn't take much, does it?
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Anyone whose political view can be swayed by a newspaper, especially one which frequently pushes real news to the margins in favour of celebrity trivia except for when it suits them (like when the owner has something to gain from a change of government, or they want to whip up a hate mob), doesn't deserve to have the vote.
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I hate it that the media - who are not exactly bastions of morality - can influence the politics of the people like this.
Even the more intelligent reader, who would normally see through obvious editorial policy, can be subject to subtle influences that they're not fully aware of.
We all have to get our information from somewhere - I just wish there were more genuinely unbiased mainstream news suppliers. The BBC comes closest I guess but even it's not immune to taking 'angles' on issues.
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I do not read The Sun, and I feel depressed that so many people do read it and then take what is written seriously.
What I am unclear on is whether The Sun really has had any political power or whether they have merely been blown with the political wind. Everybody knows that Labour will almost certainly lose the next general election, but no doubt The Sun will claim to have had some influence after the fact.
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Oh, dear!
Let us ask the question: Why did the Sun do this?
Answers:
• Sells lots of papers
• Chose today as they wanted to derail Browns speech
• They are arrogant enough to think they matter
• Their Owner TOLD THEM TO
And lots of other reasons which, quite frankly, should earn them a boycott by all that actually care about our country.
Newspapers and Journalists are NOT representatives of the country. They do NOT "Speak for the readers." They should have no more rights to dictate or influence the politics of this country than the rest of the voters.
Oh, does Murdoch qualify for a vote at all?
And to be honest, this is a really good reason NOT to vote Tory. From what is being said today, it seems that Cameron and his team (like Blair before him), is cuddling up to a newspaper, and I bet they get much more personal treatment than us ordinary folk.
That is all wrong in just about anyway I can think of.
Finally, thank you BBC, for drowning out proper political debate and reporting by jumping on the Sun's bandwagon. This is particularly ridiculous since Murdoch hates the BBC, and would love to see them pulled off the web.
Your reporter in Brighton, having got a right roasting from a couple of pundits, mentioned (after they had gone), that he did not remember Labour complaining about the BBC reports about the Sun back in 1997.
Daft comment! The BBC Only launched News 24 and the news website in 1997, when most of the country could not get it! So, for most people, the BBC reporting was a couple of news bulletins and probably a bit on Newsnight - hardly the blanket coverage of 2009.
So come on - be honest! This is not about good news reporting, or good political analysis. This is just headline grabbing and is actually detrimental to the democratic political process of our nation.
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Should you be mentioning your own links to RM in your comments Andrew?
Frankly any help that brings about the demise of the Labour Party government is welcome
I can't support it's endorsement, but will wish it every success
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Having worked for The Sun from 1986 to 2008 I know that, even with the "dwindling power of newspapers", to be supported by The Sun is a massive boost for that particular political party.
In my 22 years at The Sun, where I designed all the sports pages, I worked under four different editors, but it wasn't their choice of which party to back.
Oh no...that came from on high. The all-conquering Lord Rupert of Murdoch. It wasn't so much what was best for the country, but what was best for him and his vast media empire.
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I think the Metro has more influence than the Sun these days.
As for whom we should or shouldn't vote for, I do wish that there was a system whereby parties could put up more than one candidate for each constituency. Our votes would go first to the party, and then to the candidate of our choice. The party with the most votes would get the seat, the candidate from the winning party with the most selections would get the position.
I think that would give us a great opportunity to really vote for the parties we most have affinity for and for the people we believe would most positively influence that party.
For example...I have a favoured party but may not like the candidate who at present represents that party, either because they have been parachuted in or they represent the other wing. At present I would simply not vote for the party. However, if I had the choice, I would vote for the party and then for the type of candidate I want to represent me. If my party declined the opportunity to put forward more than one candidate, I would then vote for an entirely different party as a means of registering my disgust with them.
Could make for some interesting hustings I think with not all the vitriol reserved for the other parties, but some interesting and enlightening infighting taking place!
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The Tory MP that The Sun forgot !
Wee Davie Mundell in Scotland.
The SCOTTISH Sun is not supporting him.
This paper questions the
"sense of direction and vision that Cameron is offering".
What will we believe next week ??????????? ???????????
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But....are the readers of any particular newspaper savvy enough to know that that being reported / discussed / in a leader column.. isnt just media hype / claptrap / fed by any particular party or ..what that newspaper proprietor own unspoken intention are...
May dare suggest that the Soarway Suns pandering to numbskulls is no different to the Dail Mails panderings to their particular middle class readership.....i m h o..
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rotf.. anyone really going to follow what rag tag paper says
are we really sheep who do as we are told because a paper says so
wake up there is no difference between labour or the torys...
diffrent names same party..
as for the sun what does it even know considering they are only intrested in making money.
not in making sure the people know the truth...
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Let's be honest. Gordon's speech was a winner. If his claims and promises were true, he's be gliding to another term in office. If his record weren't so bad in terms of honesty and delivery he'd be achieving his dream, but the speech was just another facet of his dream. Crime is unheard of, the NHS performs to miraculous standards, the poor have disappeared from our streets and the elederly live in cossetted luxury.
I applaud Gordon's dream, but that's all it is, a dream, and he has evidenced that he is incapable of delivering it. It's totally pointless spouting statistics, if they are massaged and adapted because they will only fool people for as long as they don't verify them by personal use or stories in the media.
Cameron isn't going to deliver Gordon's policies, but sadly, nor is Gordon, and nothing is more damaging than being seen to lack credibility and honesty. Gordon's been seen to be following public opinion and his comments on anti social behaviour were an attempt to appear to be ahead of the news, but it was just more frail and frothy words of no substance. It almost sounded as if Gordon would come round to sort out unruly families himself. Frankly, he could have dealt with it more easily by spelling out to the police what their function is.
Harsh reality is also a part of politics and we havent heard what Labour will do about public sector pensions, the cuts they latterly told us were on the horizon or how these new promises would be funded.
Perhaps I feel like most. I'm vehemently anti-Gordon and Labour, as their words and actions have never matched but, as for where I put my vote, that's up for grabs.
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Good morning each & Andrew.
I doubt that the sun will drive people to the polls and that is what matters.
What this change of 'heart' might do right now is bring the whole election process into the minds of voters, registered AND actual.
It is most likely that it will be the 'web wot done it.'
Not a terrible thing from my point of view.
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if you give a damn what the Sun thinks you're as stupid as anyone who reads the Sun
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Having just read what a mostly disastrous career Murdoch Junior has thus far achieved, The Sun readership should be down to about 850,000 by next year anyway under his "leadership", so the impact will be less significant (I hope). Be under no illusions, this is about what Murdoch wants, whether Son or Pater. Hopefully for the country's sake the Conservatives will be shown the door again. Imagine a return to the Thatcher/Reagan vision - currently being exorcised in the US after complete and utter failure - but without the ability, the common touch. . .
This still leaves me with huge concerns over Labour competence, currently exhibiting continued waste , excess, mismanagement and real-world dislocation. A Liberal/Independent Alliance sounds like such a refreshing change, any surgeon's out there capable of giving Clegg a Charisma Transplant in time?
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According to the latest YouGov poll the ABC1s are split 46:26:18 whereas the C2DEs are 32:33:18. The Sun's demographic is largely C2DE and they are probably more likely to be swayed by a newspaper than the ABC1s.
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I can't help but think that this is simply a case of Newscorp jumping on the bandwagon and engaging in a huge bout of self-publicity. Twelve years ago they backed the winning side at the last minute, only because the Tories were bound to get a massive drubbing in the polls, and claimed that it was their support that swept New Labour into power. By that logic I can claim that my decade-long dislike of Tony Blair was key to his resignation.
If, in fact, a lowest-common-denominator hack rag like the Sun can actually tell its readers how to think, can anyone help me out with a New Zealand work visa application?
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The fact is that the timing of this change in allegiance from News International is absolutely ingenius. In one fell swoop it has stopped any momentum that Labour was about to gain from Gordon Brown's speech, and also perhaps more importantly, given The Sun an impression of relevance it simply does not actually have generally anymore amongst the British population.
This move was aimed to give The Sun the most publicity possible, and it has achieved precisely that because all of the media outlets, whether they be broadcast, print or new media have taken the bait. News International is a right-wing organisation, it was near miraculous they stayed with New Labour for so long after 2005 when it became apparent that the partnership no longer suited them. The Sun has changed allegiance because they know Labour cannot win the next election, and the timing was designed to do as much damage to the party as possible and help David Cameron. There was an air of inevitability about change before the Labour conference, and after it the same will still be true. Fair play to The Sun for giving themselves as much publicity as possible, but this will be the last time a newspaper ever gives an impression of large influence before an election, and new media will make sure of that as much as Mr Murdoch wishes it wasn't the case!!
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I would add an answer to the question from Gurubear, 19 (Why does the Sun do this?):
- They pick the person that is pretty sure to to win anyway, jump on the bandwagon, pretend they swayed the election again, and become buddies with the next government that now supposedly owes them a favour.
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In a perfect world, people would see the hypocrisy of the Sun and its switching of political allegiance to fit its owner's agenda. The fact that the Sun backed the Tories under Thatcher and continued to do so until the early 90s should tell everyone just how much concern that particular rag of a newspaper has for the British public's well being.
Under Gordon Brown, Labour are the lesser of two evils by a long way. The smarmy and untrustworthy David Cameron and his over-privileged crew of upper-class types will spell the end of the UK if the Tories manage to win the next election.
A Conservative win will spell the end of the Union as I don't know anyone in Scotland who will abide living under another Tory government.
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It's not important that 'The Sun' has decided to support the Conservatives, what's important is that Rupert Murdoch had, the man that controls the world
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People may take the Sun more seriously if it explains what it expects from any political party. Does the Sun have a reliable list of expectations or will it just react to developments?
K Ajimal
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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I was under the impression the Sun had switched its support to Mr. Cameron years ago.
The headline today is intended as a spoiler,childish possibly but they know their readers.
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The saddest things is that so many people insult their own education by reading such a rag and that they vote as a result of it's comments.
Even sadder is that they will almost inevitably the part of the population that will benefit from the Eton boys gaining power.
Rest assured, those with will gain far more than those without should it happen.
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A lot of the posts above complain about the influence of the media, including the BBC. There are lots of flaws with our constitution, but the principle of one man, one vote, still stands. We probably all think that our views are worth more than those of the people we disagree with, but it just doesn't work that way. As much as I fear that the Sun might sway easily led or the ill informed, I have to put up with it, or do something about it.
At least with the BBC you get a chance to publish your comments, wether anyone actually reads this far down is another matter!
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Unfortunately because of the level of intelligence of Sun readers and the sheer numbers of them this could well influence things in the next election - which is incredibly depressing!
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It was once said that Gordon Brown is Dull but Competent. Later it was said he was just dull.
The reason that the Sun has come out now in support of the Conservatives Now is simply because he failed to confirm that he was going to participate in the Rupert Murdoch Tv debate.
May be its right maybe its wrong but in the world of politics, as a professional politician ( with advisors )he should have seen that coming.
It is the same oversight he made over the 10p tax row.
I do not necesarily want a 'nice' prime minister but I do want one that is a little bit more worldly wise.
PS Charlie Wheelan dares to show his face at conference-Incredible !
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Perhaps the reason the sun has lost its clout is that people are more informed these days and won't put up with nazi style thought control.
If a newspaper has that much direct influence over democratic elections then it should be banned and its editors tried for treason.
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Anita touched on a point close to my own experience and interests today, and that was the fact that promising to diagnose cancer earler and earlier is just madcap tomfoolery. Unless I have been selected for personal and special treatment by Leicestershire and Rutland NHS, then the NHS does not achieve current promises by any measure. I just looked at the current NHS guideline and it is just a fairytale from beginning to end from my own experience.
Yes - it's true that there is not even a hope of achieving current requirements without massive expenditure on scammers, and that requires specialist buildings to house them, and this takes long term massive investment. It took me a month even to receive an urgent scan.
The next problem, which I came up against, is that after you've been scanned, if it's positive, you need treatment. Now I had to write to my MP and kick up a fuss to receive treatment, not something that would have happened if my surname had been Brown or Cameron, or I had appeared on Big Brother. Ater investing in the equipment to diagnose cancer it's certain that it will generate many more patients requiring long term expensive treatment.
Gordon pays people to give him figures to prove a point, and this they do effectively, but it leads him to live in his own fantasy world. To get a diagnosis I had to make a Freedom of Information request to view my medical records. To make ridiculous promises is to pretend that the current ones are met, and this is far from true.
Am I tempted by empty promises ? No - it annoys me and insults my intelligence.
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So NuLab have unleashed their brainwashed brigade and all we can hear on TV and read on blogs is the damage limitation catchphrase: "People elect the government, not the newspapers". Pathetic but understandable.
What is not clear to me is why after enjoying The Sun's support for 12 years all of a sudden their readers are rubbished (listen to Harriet Harperson). Also if readers are rubbish why the John Prescott brigade,
whenever facing criticism to NuLab actions, speak with contempt (or worse) of the Daily Mail readers. Could it be that only the pro NuLab papers' readers are intelligent and well educated?
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Good afternoon Andrew
Well Mr Murdoch you've swayed my vote for the next Election .. I am now parked proudly in the Labour camp.
I can see no other reason for his shift in persuasion than ambitions between him and DC to bring the Beeb to its knees,by way of revenue cuts.thus increasing his media opportunities
I also believe that now they have the SUN's backing most right minded Tory voters would think twice about the future aspirations for Britain under a Conservative Government ,unless of course they are are part of that elitist 10% that will inherit the world
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It wiuld be interesting to muse what would have happened if the Sun "wot won it" had supported Kinnock rather than Major. The Sun would surely believe Kinnock would have moved to Downing Street but would he have had any longer tenure of Number 10 than Major? Hesseltine might well have become Leader of the Opposition and Prime Minister after a short period, avoiding 12 years in the wilderness. The next government, whatever its colour, will have enormous problems, much more serious than those faced by Major. 'twould be wise to take care what one wishes for!
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I haven't read all these comments, I'd be here all day. But from the ones I've read, I think a lot of people are missing the point. This is not about the Sun influencing people, swinging the vote, or in anyway being able to dictate what people choose to do. What is significant about the Sun's decision is that the paper is recognised by many (especially its readers) as being "like them" - being a mouthpiece for the nation's views. It doesn't tell people what to think. It voices what people already think.
For countless months we've seen poll after poll talking about the Conservative lead, but doesn't the saying go "there are lies, damned lies and statistics". People are naturally cynical and disbelieving about polls and surveys, less so about other people's views and emotions when confronted with them. What the Sun has just done is put some human truth behind the polls. They've told the government that the country just isn't behind it any more, in a way that is going to much harder to ignore.
But then again, not much of a surprise really. Slight tangent but, I mean, is Gordon Brown really Prime Minister? The PM is an elected positioned. None of the MPs, MPs that we voted into power, were given the opportunity to vote for Brown. He's unelected. How on earth has his position been tenable for an long as it has been?
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...cheer up!
7 Months to go, there is still all to play for. A week IS a long time in politics.
Those that get-down-with-the-sun need not GO down with the sun.
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New here!
But surely anyone that claims that the Sun will not sway the vote or even that the Sun will 'not tell me how to vote' are missing the point.
The Sun will pursuade the, excuse the analagy, Red Necks and Trailor Trash and the hundreds and thousands of registered voters who have no idea about policies or manifestos. These are the same people that in America would get a muppet like GWB elected (and then re-elect him!!!).
This is not meant to be a derogatory rant as i would be known to read the afore mentioned paper on occassion, but if the Sun or indeed the Mirror splashed on their front page for more than 3 days that Michael Jackson is alive and well and living in Stockport, there are those out there that would be booking the first available train ticket!
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Backing from the Sun doesn't mean much in this household. I always take what I read in the Sun with a very large pinch of salt...
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Labour have been telling lie upon lie, knowing that they can get away with it.
The Sun are now going to be on Labour's case with every porkie. This is great news.
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This sort of move by a favoured publication can undoubtedly have an influence on the electorate, and I will be carefully reading the editorial in the next issue of ‘Naked Slippery Pole Dancers Monthly’ to decide where I should place my cross in May.
Charles Letterman
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When a newspaper tries to influence democratic elections it is time for it's owner to be declared an unfit person to own a newspaper and be made to sell on. This can be done under british law.Rupert Murdoch never misses an opportunity to make mischief for this country,GB should make sure that any debate should be held on terrestrial TV. Why should big business make money out of our election when they have declared a bias.GB will not get my support but newspapers should report news only they are not entiteled to opinions as are individuals.
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George P-W said that they waited until they heard the PM's speech...
So maybe it was not surprising. The speech was simply a case of 'rehash Brown'... cf. http://www.boho.com
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What is all the fuss about, Who reads the rag anyway not even fit for cleaning up with.
Aseveryone seems to be making fun of Gordon Brown, just what has the man done wrong, he inherited most of the problems from Blair, and if you think you are going to be better off under the tories you all have short memories, remember Thatcher, at least we know that Education and the NHS is safe in Labours hands, and dont forget about the low paid, what will happen to the Minimum Wage if Labour are not in power, I'll tell you (as an ex conservative) it will either disappear or be frozen, and we will be back to SLAVE Labour again.
Keep up the good work Labour you know you can do it.
I am also complaining to the Press complaints Commission as if I had put an advert together in that ilk, I would have been censored.
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The Sun is a comic. Buying The Sun just once should preclude you from voting for life.
A system where people with IQs of 90 have the same voting weight of people with IQs 150+ is NOT, I repeat NOT, a working system...
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#36 KA Jimal
- yes the Sun is probably reflecting public opinion not leading it.
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56. At 3:03pm on 30 Sep 2009, SoxSexSax wrote:
The Sun is a comic. Buying The Sun just once should preclude you from voting for life.
A system where people with IQs of 90 have the same voting weight of people with IQs 150+ is NOT, I repeat NOT, a working system...
---------
Blimey, are there really still people with IQs under 150, despite Labour revolutionising education and creating all those A*'s ?
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The Sun had fun with Neil kinnock who gave them endless material to work with, from his mind bogglingly insincere senseless, directionless, diatribal soundbites!!! to his clumsy beach stumbles. He wasn't really a viable option let's face it. No brainer Maggie won hands down.
Brown on the other hand comes across as sincere but indecisive and clumsy when it matters. Not a natural born leader in other words, but then neither does his rival Cameron.
Nick Clegg is winning the leadership personality battle. Maybe the Sun would like us to take a step back in history when the Liberals were the only serious opposition to the Tories. In fact is there any real place for a Labour Party. Have they achieved their stated goals for the working classes?
It is the most confused political battle ground ever. Who stands for what, no one, least of all the Ministers, seem to know - Immigration, Crime, Drugs, Anti Social Behaviour they all seem to agree on but never seem to be able to do anything about. Economy - Labour spend, Tories save, Labour spend, Tories save. Maybe the Liberals can set their sights on really getting to grips with the boom and bust cycles.
Nick Clegg is the dark horse that has a chance. All he has to do is nick the disenchanted Labour voters along with the UKIP and Alf Garnett/BNP protest voters. That is not forgetting the very unconvinced Tory voters. He is maybe the Man City of the Political world without the money.
Watch this space!
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I thought product placement was still not allowed on the BBC. It might as well have run full advertsfor the Sun all day. This nasty rag, the mouthpiece of the appalling Murdoch family, deserves to have no influence at all. If Labour loses the next election it will be largely due to the right wing press choking off all decent commentary on what is going on and Labour's huge successes, and the craven way the BBC follows the newspapers' line. The unfainess in media representation will be almost like having a coup d'etat.
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I would like to see if the Sun's sales went up or down based on their declaration today, and does this need that all Mr Murdoch's media i.e. SKY, now supports the Tories?
I think they should all either declare their impartuality or allow us to make an informed decision and stop our subscriptions.
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...my oh my
The word 'Sun' has risen on a blustery day.
In dread of seeming like I know, I will say.
Einstein, a brainy-bod; and many other such.
First built the bomb, then dropped it then, THOUGHT "Oh my golly-gosh."
It IS the most important thing that all have the vote and not only those 'we' approve of.
Not all window dressing either is found on the third page. Much NuL totty makes to the front.
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Why the fuss?
The Sun is "coming out" for the Tories at this stage, is like someone watching a football match and "coming out" in support of the team which is leading 2-0 in the 85th minute.
The Sun has never "supported Labour" in the past 12 years; it continued to follow its own anti-Europe/pro-US agenda, slated virtually every Labour policy, except, tellingly, support for the Iraq war, but just said "vote Labour" in 1997, 2001 and 2005 because they were going to win.
It's so craven, and to devote time to the issue (which I admit I am doing myself) is only to perpetuate the myth of the Sun's influence - a myth which Blair, Campbell etc. bought into wholeheartedly in 97, and which Cameron will mostly likely do in 2010
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60. At 3:33pm on 30 Sep 2009, Fairoakgreen wrote:
.... If Labour loses the next election it will be largely due to the right wing press choking off all decent commentary on what is going on and Labour's huge successes, and the craven way the BBC follows the newspapers' line. The unfainess in media representation will be almost like having a coup d'etat.
------
Hang on a minute - what about the long period of time when Alastair Campbell and the labour spin machine were self-congratulatorily controlling the media - feeding them with the news as they wanted it to appear, harranguing editors if they printed something they didn't like and barring journalists from briefings if they had the audacity to print an independent opinion (i.e one that didn't chime with the spin of Campbell/Blair).
He who lives by the sword.....
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Just a thought, are the majority of SUN readers capable of actually voting? More importantly what percentage of SUN readers have ever voted in an election?
"Mr Cameron has kept his distance from Sun proprietor Rupert Murdoch, though he gets on well with his son, James."
Is "Murdoch junior" another Etonian twit like Cameron? God help us if a Tory right wing, verging on facist Government ever takes control!
Forgot to add, can "SUN readers" even read ?
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56. At 3:03pm on 30 Sep 2009, SoxSexSax wrote:
The Sun is a comic. Buying The Sun just once should preclude you from voting for life.
A system where people with IQs of 90 have the same voting weight of people with IQs 150+ is NOT, I repeat NOT, a working system...
SQUEELIE DUG sends this on to you:
IQ's of 90? What? Your ARE being generous.
LOVE IT - WHAT A LARRF!
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66. who is yoU? it it me?
scotsausagedog-voorsztie?
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People let us face it. If it were not for the sevices of the very people that buy the Sun we would be sitting in the dark.
We put our lives in their hands day-in and day-out.
This is beginning to look like the those letter-page spats between two novelists nobody seems to have read.
It is still true what I have long said; neither 'England' nor Britain has ever had the need to import fascistic notions.
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65. At 3:59pm on 30 Sep 2009, The_SUN-toilet-paper wrote:
Just a thought, are the majority of SUN readers capable of actually voting? More importantly what percentage of SUN readers have ever voted in an election?
"Mr Cameron has kept his distance from Sun proprietor Rupert Murdoch, though he gets on well with his son, James."
Is "Murdoch junior" another Etonian twit like Cameron? God help us if a Tory right wing, verging on facist Government ever takes control!
Forgot to add, can "SUN readers" even read ?
------
They can probably read enough to google James Murdoch and discover that he attended school in New York (a fair number could probably also spell 'fascist').
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bryhers wrote:
"The headline today is intended as a spoiler,childish possibly but they know their readers."
Actually, it is not their own readers they are interested in - it never has been. The readers of the Sun are a very broad church - many not interested in voting, many too young to vote, and the rest scattered across parties. It is not a paper that is aimed at being overtly political most of the time, despite Trevor Kavanagh thinking he is king of the political journos (no you are not!)
Murdoch knows that his headline will get loads of publicity from Sky (of course), the BBC (predictably) and the broadsheets. THAT is where his message is aimed.
The BBC have just fallen for the ploy as usual and done Murdochs work for him.
If the BBC news site has an equivalent of page three, then this is where this coverage should have been.
Harman, in making a joke about it (rather badly, I am sorry to say), put the subject in the right context.
Stupid Media Irrelevance.
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jc @ 51
The Sun are now going to be on Labour's case with every porkie
mmm ... and countering it with a much BIGGER one of their own
be great, as you say
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The attack on the Sun and Sunreaders ill becomes anyone.
There are papers desperately trying to influence politics and boost the PM , I give you the Guardian, I give you The Scotsman in Scotland - in fact if I give it to you could you please NOT give it back- I give you a once great paper The Herald - not the Zimbabwe one but now ,with some rare journalistic integrity from a few journalists, might as well be considered as honest as the Zimbabwe version.
And I give you the BBBC , which was stitched up like a kipper by Labour spin doctor, Campbell and had to retreat into sycophantic propaganda masquerading as news.
So lets not just blame Murdoch for pushing a political party or doing the dirty on one, the media can protest its impartiality while merrily misleading the public.
At least the Sun is up front about its support.
It does'nt get Labour activists and erstwhile Labour candidates to write its blogs.
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Mmmmm - wonder what the Sun knows about the government that is about to unleash upon them! I bet they have some inside knowledge, deals done, real gems that have been stored away over the last 12 years. This is where there is danger for Labour. All out attack on previous decisions, affairs (allegedly) etc etc that the Sun has found out about but has not reported as they supported Labour.
Worrying times for Gordon - wonder if his finger nails will be able to take it!
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..tsunami toddler 'presumed dead'
and yet more news fell on one head
An Afghan girl who too is dead.
Peace has come to Afghanistan. One at a time.
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When the whole political system is morally bankrupt and out of step with the demands of twenty first century democracy, when you have a two-party process that considers petty-party perspectives over issues based principles, are unaccountable, incapable of reform and self-regulation, then you need to throw out the whole system and bring in a process of representative deomocracy that enables all parties to engage in the political process and represent the people they are elected to serve through new progressive democratic means.
Political agendas are now so blurred as to represent only a confusing conglomeration of indistinctive policies that blur the boundaries between parties and offer the electorate no clear choice or clear basis of appointment, or legally binding manifesto. Trust no longer exists.
When a car is written off, you don't repair it, you replace it. The same applies with our failed Parliamentary political system. It is undemocratic and unrepresentative. It is time to make Parliament into a museum and move on.
Total political reform is essential and not a perpetuation of seventeenth century political principles through another election. All that can serve is to deistract attention from the pressing need for reform.
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Andrew,
The Sun will just be following your lead. You've been bashing Gordon Brown for as long as the BBC has been funding your nonsense. Strangely, I still have way more respect for Gordon Brown than I do for your journalism.
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From the comments above, even those denying it, the Sun's decision clearly has a big effect, on morale if nothing else, and from Lord Minky's and Gordon's reactions, they think it too.
I'd agree that the Sun is following the tide of public opinion and is not opinion forming, and reality should not come as a surprise to Labour, though I fear it often does.
I'm most amused when the Sun is accused of appealing to the lowest common denominator, as if politicians are exempt from that sin. As an X Factor afficianado Gordon should be cautious of accusing papers of cheap publicity orientated stunts when he's stuffed his own ranks with media personalities for the same reason. Maybe Lord Minky should try a rendition of 'We only sing when we're winning'.
Labour are third in the opinion polls for heaven's sake. What do they expect ? - pity.
Labour's current dire position in the polls has nothing to do with The Sun or its readers. The danger Labour now face is that things could snowball from here but there isn't a place in politics for a busted party. Lib Dem sound like the inheritors of the Socialist cause, and at least avoided reeling off a lot of implausible promises at their conference.
Labour's problems are honesty and credibility, and if you've lost them over 13 years it'll be hard to regain it in 7 months.
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#75 PACMAN001
Well said that man!
"Vote for option 4 or more."
I say.
Seven months and counting.
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Coming after Ms Harman's outburstm Tony Woodley rips up a copy of the Sun newspaper at conference - blimey, this really has got under the skin of the labour party. Perhaps we'll see some book burning at tomorrow's conference.
(BTW Tony - you could face an ASBO for dropping litter like that).
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IQ qualifications to vote ? And you call the Tories elitist ?
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Giannnor 44
I cannot find any evidence among the bloggers that they think Sun readers are rubbish.You are entitled to your opinion of course but to me it sounds unduly harsh.
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So what price have the Murdochs extracted from Cameron in exchange for their support? Breakup of the BBC, given Murdoch the Younger's recent comments?
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Just reading an article from the Observer Magazine 15/03/09
It is quoting a widow whose husband committed suicide.
" About two or three weeks before Ian died, there was all this stuff about Kelvin McKenzie being on Newsnight, and Ian got really angry."
Then she explains how this effectived him, eventually he hung himself, he had been at the match and survived; his son Joe was crushed to death, could not breath; not a desirable way to go - he did not have the chance to 'urinate on coppers'. I don't belong to the amazingly dignified Hillsborough Group, I would not be so forgiving; I lost a student, he had learning difficulties.
He worshipped Liverpool, he visited the ground and had been made so welcome by the club- I don't suppose he had much chance to 'urinate on coppers' There is a bench at my college in Warrington dedicated to him, we thought of asking Kelvin to join our celebration of his life but though not really- his parents were there.
McKenzie has never publicly apologised and he still appears on BBC, an issue I intend to complain about. So Mr Murdoch has given Kavanagh his instructions, which he will of course obey.
Am I bovvered- well rather glad actually - and I vote Liberal Democrat
I understand that Mr Murdoch has postrate cancer, so have I, one of my wishes is that he dies before me.
By the way Mr Neill when exactly did you work for him ?
Check out Hillsborough by Phil Scraton it is a book; something that Kelvin might have trouble with, you could read it out to him-slowly.
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Another nail in labour, hopefully another nail in the union too.
Mr Cameron nor his party come across to Scotland as having Scots interests to the fore. Mickey Forsyth is hovering in the background, they will do well to get one MP elected.
So for Scotland, the Sun is shining for 2010 and a positive referendum result!
The dead hand of labour and the union will be lifted from Scotland's throat!
D McN
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It's quite sad really that a newspaper supposedly determines the outcome of such a serious matter as a general election, writes in a style that 8 year olds can understand easily.
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re 82. Of course the recent anti BBC comments by the Tory front bench were to woo Murdoch. And the current campaign by the Murdochs to reduce the size of the BBC, especially its online presence, was Murdoch naming his price to the politicians.
But Murdoch has come out early. It allows Labour to do some News Corp bashing without worrying about the consequences.
May I suggest that it adds Premier League football and the European Champions League football to the TV reserve list (the list of sporting events that cannot be only on Pay-TV)? Everyone I know who subscribes to Sky says they wouldn't if Sky didn't have the football. Put it on free to air TV. A £5 increase in the license fee should pay for it. At a stroke it would remove Sky's dominence of the TV market but more importantly it would save all us football fans about £28.50 a month without any loss of the service we want. We could spend that on other things.
So it would be very popular with the voters.
Gordon could then ask DC if he would reverse it. If DC says 'yes' then he upsets the voters who have just saved £28.50 per month. If he says 'no' he will upset Murdoch. A win-win for Gordon.
It would be disasterous for Murdoch and so good for British politics as his influence would diminish. It would be good for football fans although the Premiership players would need to take a pay cut.
If Gordon is to get reelected he needs to start scrapping.
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Sun fleas labour!
Time for an old dog to learn new tricks
Or find a guardian angel!
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#82 morbidfascination
That is Roop the scoop's problem.
This time the election shall belong to the voters, to the smaller partys and to local Independents.
Politicians need we the people more than we need them. The same goes Media Moguls.
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>>>So what price have the Murdochs extracted from Cameron in exchange for their support? Breakup of the BBC, given Murdoch the Younger's recent comments?
Murdoch Junior isn't bright enough to work out that anything Cameron gives to him will be taken away by the bright sparks at google. They don't appear to be able to compete in the private sector and are hoping for a bail out from Cameron. Seems like a good time to buy shares in google.
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Whether or not 'The Sun' has any influence on its readers voting intentions only time will tell.
What is patently clear is that it has got the Labour Party rattled. The reaction and antics of various of their ilk at Conference or on the media today, is proof enough that the paper does have some influence on politicians.
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#56 SoxSexSax
Similar Named "PUN"
Agree with your 1st sentence !
The rest is very questionable !
Solve your problem by having Elections using the
Single Transferable Vote.
Watch how they count and "The Count"
I've meet more streetwise people who have had more
sense than Uni Prof's
Don't judge a book !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Andrew, you do talk some real nonsense both on your TV shows and now this blog.The Sun is a second rate paper at best,whose claim to fame is the page 3 girls!!.It's intellectual contribution from the likes of MacKenzie etc can be captured on the back of the proverbial postage stamp
Rgds,Gordon
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#86 TimBJones
Your analysis of BBC/Tory/Murdoch is Spot-on !!!
I'll pay the extra £5.
START A CAMPAIGNE
Ah well,if Torys get in,I'll watch Steptoe and Son repeats !!!
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Nice to see this stall still serving at happy hour when that other great servant of the public, Mr. Robinson, has again seen his shut up shop before anyone gets back from work. Can I get a refund?
"I've decided in my own mind," is the quote I appreciated from our combatative PM.
Quite where else a decision might get made being one question that popped into mine, I do confess, but having read a few things in dark corners of Marrgate, I guess stranger things might be possible psycho-physiologically these days.
Not, perhaps, the best way to be running a country, though. IMHO.
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The Sun with Murdoch at the helm has been supporting Labour for over a decade. Its format and content (including page 3) hasn't changed much in that time. Suddenly, today, it becomes completely untouchable. It's read by low IQ persons, sexist, not worth the paper its printed on etc. etc.
Unbelievable!!
Why hasn't a copy been torn up at Conference every year if it is so offensive?
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I will also be fascinated to see how some get ever more hot and bothered about how undue editorial influence from on high can be abused in shaping the opinions of the masses in the press, when broadcast is so much more powerful. In some cases, uniquely so.
Fortunately, in the case of The Sun, I can opt not to fund them if I find their politics not to my taste.
Open Pandora's box lid too far, and you may not like what else gets exposed.
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Perhaps the Sun is overestimating its reach.
This is 2009 and not 1979.
Lots of people have got internet access, and use this as a source of information.
The political parties may serve their interests more effectively by having a strategy that makes good use of internet.
If they get it wrong, they might self destruct in the McBride - Draper style.
The people at the currant bun might do themselves a favour by working out an internet strategy that enables them to compete more effectively with google.
According to Pa Murdoch, they haven't worked out how to make money from the internet.
Google can!
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Lord Minky's in a tizzy and Gordon's having a tantrum.
Who cares ?
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I've never been convinced that any news outlet could "swing" things in a positive manner.
But I'm fairly sure they can influence against a line or person or party they really don't like.
It's what we all do, every day, by finding something we don't really like (or do really like) and creating an oyster of belief from a sand grain inside. It's odd that Blair chased across the globe to win Murdock Senior's support. Now Brown and Mandelson dismiss the Sun.
That doesn't matter, really. They dismiss the attitudes of voters every day by implementing stupid laws and regulations, but not enforcing them in any way.
It's not necessarily the policies - it's the delivery of anything sensible that has driven the UK into this financial and social backwater status.
If this is "moral backbone", someone needs to snap it. Before our whole society collapses.
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The Sun's right, they have lost it, read between the lines if his speech... just one example ID cards, they waste darn good money on it then scrap it what sort of government is that? There are many other examples if you do your homework.
This guy is no leader... a ruler may be but not a leader the yes and no election and the 10p tax are others, it's alright cheering the great leader and the flock clapping... it'd be cheaper if they hired a clap machine from the Beeb and have Mandy on the button, this is completely opposite to what the public think they won't be cheering and clapping when the taxes have to raise.
I'm no Sun reader and newspapers don't influence me one bit.... what they can't do in 11 years is certainly not worth promising to do in 4 years, Labour have had their chance with me and they blew it so the 'gang' can clap and cheer and sing praises but let it not be down my ear hole.
It said he loves our country.... what about Scotland?
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If the Sun is so unimportant, why is everyone from brown to union leaders and every other labour minister and activist yelping it doesn't matter?
If it doesn't matter you wouldn't bother mentioning it now would you?
But it does, hence the yelping.
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I notice that the Murdoch press in Scotland has still not come out in favour of the Conservatives. I realize how unpopular the Conservatives are in Scotland and this may be a factor.But is it also the case that a conservative victory in Westminster will favour the referendum on independence? and NI are undecided as to whether they want this to succeed.
Meanwhile is it in the SNP`s interest that the Conservatives win the general election because they are even less popular than Labour in Scotland?
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99 Open mind.
You are partly right: People who are interested in politics will usually take newspapers which reinforce their opinions.
However,voters whose interest in politics is moderate or weak will be influenced politically by their daily paper if it presents a consistent point of view.A series of US studies suggests they could influence around 2% of the electorate.
Another factor is the long term decline in the membership of political parties where people increasing rely on media for their information and attitudes.The loss of the main institutional anchors of political values,family,church,union,individual business, has led to the increasing volatility of electorates across the democracies.
So newspapers are a political factor and unlike TV are not mandated to `give both sides.`
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76. At 5:19pm on 30 Sep 2009, FairPlayMotty wrote:
Andrew,
The Sun will just be following your lead. You've been bashing Gordon Brown for as long as the BBC has been funding your nonsense. Strangely, I still have way more respect for Gordon Brown than I do for your journalism.
TUT TUT! SHAME ON YOU!! BUTTON YOUR LIP!!!
We know what you are. Don't make it worse for yourself.
WHO funded YOUR education?
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...perhaps the time has come when we should no longer follow this Red-Blue circus. Instead concentrate our minds soley on who to elect in our respective constituency?
This time the the 'spoilers' can make way for thwe smaller partys and local candidates without party affiliations.
[I am having to find new ways to say this]
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100#, 101#
Both absolutely right.
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Who actually cares what the political viws of any newspaper are?
It seems the members of the Labour party certainly care about The Sun and if they're that annoyed about it, then they must really fear the inevitable.
What choice do we really have though?
Wishy-washy, no policy Cameron and his public school cronies.
The Lib-Dems...enough said
or...A party that by changing every banking regulation we had, presided over the only collapse of a high-street bank Britain has seen in well over a century.
A party where the only credible man left, was sacked/resigned TWICE from office.
The same party whose MPs think that by waving cheques in front of cameras, we'll forgive their blatant lack of morals, surrounding what they're allowed to claim.
It's either, don't vote, or, vote for a minority party or independent candidate.
Revolution anyone?
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Remember that old film, Network?
When people stuck their heads out of their windows and shouted,
"I'm as mad as hell and I'm not going to take this any more".
It takes a lot for me to get angry. And it normally comes and goes quickly.
I am rather pleased that Mrs Brown considers her husband a hero. Nice for him to have a similarly deluded partner. Hope they have a nice life after a political/economic disaster he designed for all the rest of us.
Putting up with idiots spending my children's money even before they have the chance to earn it, feel it, decide what they'd like to do with it, makes me feel exactly like that unfortunate TV presenter.
Mad as hell and rather wishing I had French blood. When the French get angry they just dump manure, garbage or whatever in front of the parliament, blockade ports or roads, burn government property, revolt.
We don't. We let very bright people with very little understanding of the world p*ss away our money on stupid social engineering projects.
For those of us with incomes, paying taxes is an inevitability. I don't mind if politicians spend money stupidly as long as I can vote to get rid of them. I've never, ever, voted for a politician to borrow money on my behalf.
For children, with no vote, no tested earning power, to be told "Don't worry dearies, we've just borrowed the first five or ten years of your income - if you ever get one - to paint pictures of an imaginary world" just AIN'T RIGHT.
Especially when coming from a son of the manse. I half expect most politicians to have a hand in my pocket checking for small change. But a guy who claims to have a "moral compass"?
Mad as hell. Peter Finch. One of the great rants. Check it on YouTube.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
108
I find it hard to understand why someone with so little understanding of modern economics, or of the crisis through which we are passing would want to expose their ignorance to to other people.
Governments across the world have had to rescue capitalism from its gravest crisis in a century.Do you imagine this was done verbally by people like yourself who are seemingly incapable of understanding what you need to do when the international economy is in freefall.
This is not simply a problem of the British economy or its management.It is capitalism.
The trade cycle is an indigenous feature of the capitalist mode of production,it is the plague condition of the capitalist economy.Grow up,read some economics and economic history,stop pretending your call is superior than that of several Nobel laureates who have endorsed the part played by the British government in mobilizing support for policies of Keynesian intervention.
Stop advocating rants on U Tube,it merely exposes you further
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The headline reads...
"MPs rally round Brown"
Alas, at the finish line there was a no-show for all concerned. With the course littering the coastal stages.
Wheels falling off, drive-train issues and at least one big-end showing.
No spectators were reported interested.
Join us next week for the downhill all the way Ice-Man special.
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I'd vote for you Andrew, you know how to put the PM's in their place.
I think it would be amazing if the SUN refused to back any of the main parties and pick one from the fringe.
What a story that would make,
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109.
Blimey! How long is a piece of string?
[just a timely reminder....]
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#110, bryhers wrote:
108
I find it hard to understand why someone with so little understanding of modern economics, or of the crisis through which we are passing would want to expose their ignorance to to other people.
bryhers,
Not sure which bit of "modern economics" I didn't or don't understand. I sort of find that "modern economcs" has at least 300 years of history. International trading has gone on for millennia. Normally based on an assumed value of something tangible.
It seemed to me at the time - not retrospectively - that credit was allowed to flow through the UK economy at a totally unjustifiable rate. (When I wanted to move house, I was offered totally stupid amounts. THat should NOT have been permitted within the UK system. Nothing to do with a USA invented crisis.)
As it certainly did through other economies. But UK laws and regulations could have stopped rediculous amounts of money to be magicked up (with absolutely no basis in old capitalist terms) and showered on people or businesses who couldn't handle it properly.
I read quite a lot of stuff.
I'd be interested to find any economist who ever wrote about financial wizards "inventing" value from dross and weaving that into their works about how the global world works. And accepting there would be no governmental intervention to try and limit excesses.
Or governments totally failing to keep an eye on finance houses, to the point where they were allowed to borrow short-term to lend long-term. Did Keynes cover that? I can't find a suitable reference.
Capitalism works when capital (real value) is injected into people or businesses with ideas that could deliver positive financial outcomes. Sometimes the result is extremely good. Sometimes it fails. It's the management of risk that makes capitalism work decently - as it has for at least 2,000 years.
What we have been/still are going through is "imaginary capitalism" where finance companies "created" value from rather poor promises. And governments (including ours) decided not to bother to check the reality, kick the tyres, check out the out-of-control institutions.
The fault I find with governments is that they just didn't give a fig as long as "money" simply appeared to flow and could be taxed. "Light touch regulation"? Because almost none of the mob we elect to Westminster or Brussels have a clue about the real world and the damage (as well as the value) impact that clever programming can have.
You don't need to hold a PhD in economics to realise that spending money you don't have is a looming problem.
That's nothing to do with capitalism. Most regimes run on the basis of the possible. Most economists I've read assume a bit of realism from banks, businesses and governments.
Who do you read?
The problem was that Government allowed finance houses to "declare" value which really didn't exist - but tax it anyway.
Can't find any economist bringing totally stupid behaviour into their equations. Maybe you found that?
Please give me a steer.
Otherwise, I seem to remember Keynes wanted to inject EXISTING value to combat a bad situation. Not sure he ever wanted to imagine up money-stuff from nowhere.
Tell me which chapter to turn to.
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renton @ 101
if the Sun is so unimportant, why is everyone from brown to union leaders and every other labour minister and activist yelping it doesn't matter?
yes good point - exactly like the fact that the Tory leadership are all vacuous posh boys from Eton - sooo much noise how it "doesn't matter" isn't there? ... from Tories
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It's safe to assume that the Sun's headline is intended to advance its financial interests, and to bolster its own self importance. This easily addressed by not buying its products if you don't like its opinion.
What irritates me is the disproportionate extent of BBC coverage advancing this media self interest when there are more important national issues to cover.
As a viewer I need the media, to act on my behalf to get the 'evidence' to make a informed choice amongst the parties in three respects:
• Their vision for the future
• The capabilities of the leadership team
• Their track record especially in business outside politics
What isn't needed is the media promoting celebrity personality based politics, nor hectoring interviews where the interviewer speaks more than the interviewee as on Tuesday's Newsnight.
The role of the interviewer is to get the answers to the questions put, and to give most of the speaking time to the interviewee. I don’t care about the interviewer’s opinions or politics as they are not up for election.
Your colleague Jeremy Paxman got this balance about right on Newsnight this evening. Well done. Hopefully he will run some coaching lessons for his BBC colleagues over the weekend so we can hear the evidence for the other party next week without media persoanlity chatter.
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By the way, bryhers.
Pop down to your local shopping centre and you'll find capitalism working day by day. As you would in China, Japan, Russia, everywhere really.
What we call "banks" were allowed to do do rediculous things because governments didn't bother or have the big ones to intervene.
It was evident that they were out of control.
You can't stop shares getting out of control. People get caught up in the excitement of trading. The market is a mirage. "Worth" is what someobody would give you today. It can disappear in a moment. (Like the value of a house - which is why the LibDem property tax is nonsensical.)
Banks have to live on recognisable assets. Solid stuff, we all hope.
Governments have to live on trust.
I don't trust any government that decides it doesn't really need to check whether banks should be left to their own devices.
Or a government that thinks it has a right to impose burdens on my children, while it has been totally incompetent in managing the money I was forced to provide.
Nothing to do with a financial philosophy. Just basic economics. Proper house keeping, the old-folk would call it.
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I suspect the Sun has less influence than has been suggested.
Do we think the Sun switches allegiance from labour to tory, and the readers are thereby persuaded they had better do likewise?
Or could it be the other way round?
The Sun, realising its readers are now more likely to support the tories, jump on the bandwagon in order to appear to be 'leading the way'.
Newspapers are only interested in circulation and will say whatever they think will most appeal to their readers.
Whichever way round it is, Labour has lost popular support. It's not just about the dire economy, but the whole raft of labour legislation that has brought about the surveillance/nanny state.
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As Tony Woodley so wonderfully put it: What does an Australian/American (who doesn't even live in this country) know about British politics? It was Murdoch who supported the Tory government when Margaret Thatcher trounced the British Unions, smashed up welfare and sold our nation down the river to the type of free-market business this country DOESN'T NEED. I hope that the BBC will remain fair and impartial when covering the election, unlike Sky News and The Sun today (disgraceful bias showing their true colours). Surely there must be some kind of regulation that prevents this type of journalism and ownership of British Media?
Labour has got alot wrong, but also a lot right this last 12 years. Does anyone really think Cameron has a plan?
If David Cameron makes it to number 10, will the last person to leave the country turn out the lights?
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You speak of the flow of credit at an unjustifiable rate,of it being nothing to do with a US invented crisis,that the same happened through other economies which regulation also failed to stop and this process of credit creation being "Magicked up" had no basis in "Old capitalist terms."
You speak with hindsight,no government or political party took this view at the time although you can find scattered comments from Mr.Brown and others showing concern about the explosion of credit.The banks responsible had little understanding of the assets with which they were trading,parcelled them up and sold them on internationally as `derivatives` in a game of musical chairs until the music stopped.
What is the meaning of a `US invented crisis.` It wasn`t invented it was real,the implosion of the asset bubble began in the USA and spread round the world. Banks crashed in nearly every country,the USA,UK, Germany,Spain,Iceland; with Hungary kept afloat by the IMF and Austria tottering.
You speak of credit being `Magicked`up which has no basis `in old capitalist terms.` I will ignore your Aleister Crowley spelling, although I have the impression he taught you economics, and focus on the substance which seems to be your naive belief that capitalists in the past were not capable of the same excesses as modern bankers.It`s hard to know where to begin. The tulip mania? (16th century),the South Sea Bubble?,(18th) the railway mania? (19th),the rescue of the British banking system by the Rothchilds?,the nineteen thirties,(Half the US banks closed by `32.) I could go on but it is getting tedious.
Capitalist markets are not rational or self correcting and are prone to periodic crisis.Since the 30`s there has been a growth of knowledge central to which is a permenent change in the relations between state and business.Engage with it,understand the transition you are living through or be a dupe of whatever newssheet you take your so-called economics from.
Begin with a popular version of Keynes and you will be surprised how much you can learn.You will find he did advocate `using money from nowhere` to combat recession,in other words for governments to incur deficits.
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The whole Sun nonsense could work in Labour's favour - in a reverse psycology way. Floating voters may fear the stigma of being labelled a 'Sun reader' (associated with 'switching to the Tories') and support labour to prove that they are independant free-thinkers.
Incidendtally: Sun Reader - is that an oxymoron?
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My concern is that the allure of living on the 'never never' in Gordon's 'never never' land is an attractive dream but one with an unhappy ending.
The promises on health are complete tosh. The Health Minister hasn't a clue. I sometimes have to visit another town to get a blood test, which includes a bus ride and a stimulating walk, and they wouldn't have room to install a scanner even there. Perhaps he's thinking of the hand scanner they use in Star Trek.
You can't spout half-baked nonsensical policies devised on the hoof, after overseeing the greatest financial meltdown in our lifetime and hand the perpetrators cash rewards, then expect plaudits. Just because Labour feel duty bound to reward failed banks, hospital administrators and every stray cat, incompetent bureaucrat and doddering compliant MP, it may seem unfair to them that they don't get similar treatment, but we're just the ignorant masses.
The veneer of Socialism on Labour is so thin it's transparent. They need to go away and learn some lessons. They squandered their credibility long before they squandered our money, and without even considering the pressing issue of pensions or our energy shortage, again they offer to spend money on 'Walter Mitty' projects.
Labour have given the election away, and I condemn them for thet too.
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Can't be bothered to wait any longer for the mods to approve your comments.
Tired of economists and people claiming to have economic or financial insight wasting my money and tossing away mo0ney that my children haven't yet earned. In the name of "investment".
Garbage.
Can't find any EU law that said our (UK) government couldn't invest in a power station. Has that happened over a 12 year period? Most economic theory seems to suggest that an element of common sense would occur.
This government lost its sense over the finance sector. Too much cash sloshing around to be taxed. Completely failed to ensure power supply for the population at large, when existing plants have to be closed.
Green? Who cares? When the lights go off, who could tell whether you are doing the "right" thing, anyway?
Where in any economist's theory does it say that people at large should pay for children to have babies and describe the social and economic consequences?
Who sugggests that a supply of energy should be disabled because politicians can't be bothered to make real "investment" decisions, rather than bleating about and wasting money on social issues they don't properly address anyway?
Life is not an experiment. Economic theories are fine. But they are simply that. Theories. Ideas. Based on research. Which has to be historical. You can't predict tomorrow's facts - they just happen.
Economics is not a science. It's a very interesting imaginary world.
Sad thing is that the people who live there are already dead, so can be included in the analysis. Politicians guess. That's all. Like we all do. We guess there could be an income. We hope to achieve a bit more.
UK "economists" presumably believed that nationalising huge swathes of UK production would deliver a genuine benefit. Did it? Or just deliver a couple of generations of people who thought that "The State" owed them a living. As though "The State" had any money.
Just stick your head out of the window (not up your back end) and yell "I'm as mad as hell and I'm not going to take it any more".
You'll feel better.
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#121, bryhers wrote:
"You speak of the flow of credit at an unjustifiable rate,of it being nothing to do with a US invented crisis,that the same happened through other economies which regulation also failed to stop and this process of credit creation being "Magicked up" had no basis in "Old capitalist terms."
Bryhers,
Was about to close down. Just found your comment.
The flow of credit WITHIN THE UK had nothing whatsoever to do with the madness in the USA.
(By the way, quite a few clever UK-based finance houses helped to create financial instruments that were based on hope rather than fact. That's not speculation. You can invent stuff from anywhere in the world. Clinton gave a big kick to sub-prime mortgage lending. I don't think the US did a decent job, or even bothered too much to worry whether they were actually creating or inventing wealth.)
Brown could have choked off the rediculous loan-to-income and loan-against-asset-value multiples. But he didn't want to. Taxes on home sales - especially affecting non-Labour seats where prices rocketed - were too juicy...
That wasn't following any economic theory I have ever read. Just greed by a bloke who wanted to spray money about.
You want to argue that the USA has had a really good economy for years? Not me. Greenspan based that economy on a consistently expanding credit bubble. No US President has had the big ones to tell the population that they owe huge amounts because they simply don't like paying taxes.
I guess that China owns more US dollars than the USA.
I've read Keynes. Yep, he says you can make up stuff for a while. But I think I understood that it had to be based on findable value. Otherwise it's just "print-a-lot" time. Where is the value that Brown is calling in to justify spending the future?
I can't see it.
Energy supplies going to collapse within 5 years or so. Replacements?
Shiny, well upholstered and updated public buildings? Nice for some, but nota real asset we can share in.
Yep. I'm an ignorant bloke. Read a lot. But you don't to even know how to read to understand that if you consistently spend more than you have - as Brown has done - you're gonna have a few problems.
Lovely thing for a politician is they have NO legal responsibility for wasting money, taking it under false pretences (remember education?) or stuffing up older people who can't work out which forms they need to fill in because somebody took their own money away.
Shove an economist into a corporate environment and a bit of reality has to seep through.
Chuck a few into government (where there are no constraints on how you chose to collect money) and all you get is sloppy thinking. Witness Balls and Cooper. What a pair. Great mates of Brown because he was an historian... of sorts. Awful author, though.
.
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The sight of The Sun being ripped up in front of conference delegates made me cringe. Surely someone in the Labour party has enough sense to realise that a 'war' with the Sun is exactly what Murdoch wants. It whips up circulation and does more damage to Labour.
Losing the support of the Sun doesn't do much damage in itself (the Sun is mostly just a barometer of the polls anyway), but starting a war that practically invites The Sun to dish out the Kinnock treatment on Brown is hilariously foolhardy.
The Sun can't change the political opinions of its readers, but it can change their opinion of certain individuals given months of ridicule. Thats what Labour must be careful of, and thats why someone needs to get a grip with these attacks.
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#130
CRAP Crap +crap
Something more than an apple fell on your head,pal !!!
Anyone who can't respond to the TxT sized news storys in the SUN
is ill informed,and will not be changed by 100 word editorials !
The SUN's a fish+chip wrapper !!!
News+politics for the punter----brain dead !!!
Gossip/sex+sport for saddo's ---why pretend to think ?
#130 You need more than an apple to bang you on the "heid"
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#130
BROWN sauce with my chips,please.
Not your Tory vinegar !!!
A Competition open to all. Enter now when apples are cheap !
What's the best thing you could do with the SUN ?
Wrap anapplefellonmyhead until Christmas !!!
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spinspamspun wrote: and wrote on,
I feel totally deflated now. I resign my post! Are you a (shuddering to say it) aaaaa.... CCat? (beestiedoppelgaengerchimera variety)
oh, christ, i'm singing* (AS in monkey, dunderheid!) as an CFR* 'owrrrf we jolly well go, [trala]'
so, it's westering home with a song in the air, light of ...........
yabbly yabbly
Ueber die Heide for me - loads of smelly treats - Bowwff END
*rene[e] descartes etc
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95. At 7:29pm on 30 Sep 2009, Zydeco wrote:
The Sun with Murdoch at the helm has been supporting Labour for over a decade. Its format and content (including page 3) hasn't changed much in that time. Suddenly, today, it becomes completely untouchable. It's read by low IQ persons, sexist, not worth the paper its printed on etc. etc.
Unbelievable!! Why hasn't a copy been torn up at Conference every year if it is so offensive?
Indeed.
Destroying print that does not 'pass muster', conjures up uncomfortable memories; good job 'elfnsafetee would mitigate against bonfires.
Even such as the Guardian would not be safe, depending on which way Polly T flip flops this week.
But I think the Mirror is secure, through being mindlessly supportive no matter what, above and beyond the calls to Mr. Maguire to 'comment'.
In some cultures, loyalty is all that matters. Just, not many I can think of that I'd like to live under.
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Just curious -anyone know what percentage of the Sun readership actually vote?
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maudeg, not exactly but perhaps less than the Guardian and the Mail?
What think you?
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Open Mind.
It is hard to know where to begin:You seem to have abandoned your naive belief in a capitalist golden age after evidence to the contrary,but you still seems to owe more to your heroes on You Tube than to rational argument.
You start by saying the flow of UK credit had ..."Nothing to do with the madness in the USA.` It had everything to do with it,UK banks were big buyers of US sub prime assets which they parcelled up and sold on.They used these circulating instruments as the foundation of a credit inflation which they intensified by engaging in sub prime lending themselves. The credit inflation was international and hidden, no-one understood it,not the bankers,the BOE,the FSA, the SEC or even the pope.
Why would I want to argue that the USA "had a good economy for years?" I didn`t.It is subject to the same instability as any other.
Where does Keynes say "You can make up stuff for a while?" What kind of illiteracy are you ascribing to the greatest economist of the last century? The General Theory of Interest,Employment and Money (1936) was a mathematical exploration of the relationship between consumption,investment,interest and employment, and was the foundation of the post-war consensus on conditions for full employment in a free society, adopted by governments across the world.It is obvious from your remarks you have not read Keynes or you would not make remarks like "Shove an economist in a corporate environment and a bit of reality will seep through." I thought it was the corporate environment that was responsible for the current crisis.
The difference between a reactionary and a conservative like myself is this: Those who lack the means of change lack the means of conservation! Crises are endemic in capitalism ,as much as you may want to attribute to them to hate figures like Mr. Brown.These crises have resulted in a new relationship between state and industry which has grown steadily since the nineteen thirties. It is often edgy,difficult,untried,not just in Labour Britain but in free market USA and |Germany.It is a result of pressure from below for greater stability, and the international viability of the nation state in its economic development.
State intervention is not intrinsically socialist,although it can be.It includes economies like Nazi Germany, and the USA where an expanded military sector is a stabilizing factor.The economic stagnation of the inter-war period brought us to the verge of defeat in 1940 when Germany won a European war. Chamberlain and his gang were using the same arguments you are using now,cut spending in a recession,keep your heads down and it will be allright.Economic crises are not an act of God,a holy visitation,they are man made and the remedies are in our hands.
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Andrew, from a great deal of the comments posted ,it is obvious that many agree that the Sun is SECOND RATE and also it's time you and the BBC in general, started to provide a fair and unbiased reporting service,as at the end of the day,it's us who pay your high salaries and keep you off the dole!!
Rgds, Gordon
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Andrew,
I notice that some people seem to have come over from other blogs, different style, very personal. Different tone as well.
In the meantime listened this morning to Ainsworth, pulling out would be victory for the Taliban. That is the very excuse for continuing the Great War, just one more push, we have all the equipment, we have the men, we have the plan, attack. What we have is Reaper and Predator, what we have is an attitude that 'we do bad things to bad people'. As in Iraq we are the problem and never the solution.
One of the tunes from the Vietnam era was simply the group chanting repetitively 'kill, kill, kill, kill...' no change, have we not got enough war memorials, statues to the generals who sent the troops forward to their deaths. Who, when it is all over they retire with their massive pensions and give us their memoirs.
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Andrew,
on listening to the Today this morning a lib dem was being inetrviewed with regard to BAE, he was allowed to comment until such time as he mentioned Barclays bank, at that point the interviewer interrupted. As for me I notice that my earlier comment has been refrred to the moderators. I look forward to the announcement as to whether or not BAE systems will be released at 10:30. Will you release my comment then, after the release of the decision. It is actually a very important issue with regard to the release of market sensitive information.
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'kill, kill, kill, kill...'
fOUR CALLS TO RAISE YOOR ******* - TAKE AIM - fffffff AY AY .............RrrrrrrrrRE
TAKE GUARD! ARCHANGELI. htis one is a promulgator:orchestrator:snake - in the making recidivist tyrannical dictatorial mad doG
[(4 = [JUNGIAN] smbolicgestural) (CARLOVINGIAN AH)]
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en gard >
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Good morning each & Andrew.
Whichever newspaper, or none, that is read clealy has nothing to do with whether you vote or no.
Between 30-60% of constituencies did not vote in the last election.
[I do not know if this is a percentage of those registered or of those the Census indicates were eligible]
Whoever can engage these and those others who will be voting for the first time can change everything.
GB had many boxes to tick to ensure that nobody could accuse him 'complacency', and box after box he did tick.
This nonsense has resulted in wins for his pal TB.
We (the voters) are to blame for that. It is up to us not to fooled again and not to take this same old 'jam' from DC either.
My message remains the same...
"Vote for option 4 or more."
This way WE can bring forward much needed change in our political system and not wait and hope like POWER2010.
We the people are responsible for this mess and we should fix it ourselves.
Seven months to go (how quickly that will change when the VFO4OM message gets out there?) we shall see.
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'we do bad things to bad people'. As in Iraq we are the problem and never the solution.
why has 143 been edited? i see nothing about this in your Rools?
its alright for some!
and who is this we, we are talking about? WE - mouth[priceless]piece
iam INFURIATED!
GOOG BYWE
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AW GOWD - OLD MEELIE POODEN STOLE MY SPOT. sorry
next paragraph from OUR previous bloggie
its only a littlewoolfie growling in his sleep.
OR IS I [RIVH]/correct//////// gibberishing
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Andrew,
I now notice from News 24 that the announcement about BAE Systems has been delayed for a time. I wonder if others do read your commenteers even though they do not allow the rest of the world to access the comments. Just a thought, I think that I may well have hit on something.
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#115
Fascinating comment from yourself, especially when one considers that around 20% of people attend private education yet 80% of all MP's have been privately educated. Now, I don't beleive (presently) there is an 80% Tory majority so maybe someone who hasn't learnt mathematics under new labour could explain how private schools are the sole preserve of Tory Mp's.... :o)
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I see there is no comment on the BBC about Labour inviting Martin McGuinness to conference in Brighton. Possibly the most disgusting and heartless bit of point scoring from this Labour Government.
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dENNIS LIVES!
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regius
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Apparently there is a leak of David Cameron's conference speech:
http://www.boho.com
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MEELie pooden got an invite - turned it down flat! piddlee
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takes one to know one
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Andrew,
there is now entering into the debate the notion of a National Care Service. Can I help on this issue, not about the funding but the functioning of such a 'service'.
There must be a massive increase in training, not only the health care professionals, GPs and Social Workers, but also family, friends, neighbours. They must be able to identify the symptoms, symptoms which are despite Ernest saunders, not seriously treatable. People must be able to relate to the sufferer, to the patient, but also all of the above can be seen to be sufferers as well. It is not a pleasant experience for a GP to see the decline of somebody who they have cared for an known for many years, who have seen the family of that person grow up, and be treated within the NHS.
There must be strong state funded support groups, somebody who has gone through the process of seeing somebody slowly decline and die has become an expert carer themselves. There knowledge must not be lost. Few people have an understanding that a carer may well walk in to the home of the sufferer one day and not be recognised, that they are a complete stranger. Can you imagine the fear of the dementia sufferer who suddenly sees somebody they don't know.
There must be warden controlled accommodation, people on site. Now this may mean that somebody has to leave the home in which they have lived for years, but that is the other side. Just as nothing in life is for free, so there is never a case of getting something for nothning. However, I must say that many people may have worked in the midlands or the north east. They then retire to the westcountry to retire, when these health problems manifest themselves. Now they have paid their council taxes in their local areas, but not down here in the westcountry. So, there is little or no money down here to support enhanced local social services, a National Care Service, must be paid for not locally, but nationally. There is no alternative, no taxation without care, but we acnnot afford to divide and rule. A National Care Service, yes, but also a national care tax, paid for by all. No matter whithout discrimination, and there must be a national quality of care.
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Andrew,
I am watching News 24 and General McChrystal is giving a speech. In the meantime he is talking so we cut to a BBC correspondent telling us what he is saying, that he is giving his view, can I ask that we actually listen to the speech. How dare the BBC, what is it that we must listen to the reporter rather than the person who is actually responsible for the occupation of Afghanistan.
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I think the Labour Party is managing a perfect car crash without the help of the Sun
The statement from the Sun merely called the "emperor has no clothes"
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Did you notice how the word 'Education' was spelt during last night's Labour Party broadcast?
Says it all about education today!
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Hello is anybody there? posted comment over 12 hours ago and am not a knew member-a short delay ?
cheers
smilingavidreader
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Andrew,
just listened to Miliband talking about the conservatives and the group they have joined in the European parliament.
Can he tell us about our allies in Afghanistan/Iraq, namely the Americans. Extra-ordinary rendition, enhanced interrogation techniques, convicted murderers, can he tell us about the investigation into the death of Mr Mousa, quick one because I'm already getting angry.
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@ 154
explain? - sure
private school products are way over represented in most influential positions in this country, including (as you say) in parliament - looking in particular at the house of commons, if you compare percentages (like for like and allowing for the Labour majority) the over representation in the Conservative ranks is considerably more than in the Labour ranks - they're a toff party who are unfit for office
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162. At 11:26am on 01 Oct 2009, T A Griffin (TAG) wrote:
REGIUS
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162. At 11:26am on 01 Oct 2009, T A Griffin (TAG) wrote:
Seconded
thus spake Zarathustra sibyl
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163. At 11:38am on 01 Oct 2009, T A Griffin (TAG) wrote: occupation of Afghanistan
Might I suggest -sudjest a Carthaginian enclave?
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No165 Zydeco
In one of your recent contributions you accused me of 'being unable to defend my party' I was not aware that I had any party political affiliations.Perhaps you can find the time to let me know which party you had in mind. Schoolboy error I am afraid.
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The Suns endorsement of the Conservatives is much more interesting than at first sight. Is the Sun doing this because it simply likes winners or is it because of recent Labour policy. The answer may lie in the fact that the Scottish Sun though it dismisses Labour it does not endorse the Conservatives as it has in England. Therefore on evidence provided it seems to be combination of both policy and winners and losers. Presumably the Sun exspects the Conservatives to win in England and the SNP to win in Scotland. However in both instances they disregard Labour.
Therefore it is interesting to note how divided our two Countries of England and Scotland have become when even the Sun recognises that a different approach is needed for each Country. Given that Scotland had totally different results towards entering further into the EU than England, it is now plainly obvious that the two Countries are now no longer as one and should separate as this appears to have happened anyway. Labour in fact was the only glue that kept Scotland within the Union, by having a cabinet of Scottish Ministers forced on the UK Government and an, as yet, unelected by the people PM.
One should not dismiss the Sun as a mere rag as I have noted with interest (though personally I do not read newspapers) that whenever I am abroad the newspaper of choice for the Brits is the Sun, well out selling any other on the stands and definitely a sun bed read for most. This does not account for just people who do not vote. However yesterday I did wonder where Labours ability of spin went to. They displayed all the signs of a deserted lover and launched into a tirade of anger against a paper they have previously courted. I thought particularly Harman looked foolish to say the least. Mandelson of late looks nothing short of crazy uncle you wish you did not have to invite to tea. Kinnock as usual made you realise why it was a very wise decision not to vote for him. If Labour had ingnored this set back that the Sun provided and said that they were not at all bothered by how Newspapers reacted, they believed in their policies anyway, the result may have been better. However this unbecoming display of anger by Labour was very uncomfortable to watch and left you with sense of please grow up you are supposed to be running the country.
What should have given voters the biggest reason not to vote for Labour was Brown's interview with Adam Bolton a more disgusting, embarrassing display I have never seen by a normal human being, let alone a PM. The anger and hatred Brown showed towards Bolton reminded you of some child who had been reprimanded for bad behaviour. One caught a glimpse in that moment of how Brown treats those who work closely with him and why he is not fit to be in politics let alone PM.
The second moment for me when it gave me a cringing moment was Sara Brown speaking about her husband. This women standing by her man routine gives other women the absolute creeps. If women have to find their own place in the World on their own, so should Gordon Brown and using his wife in this way is awful to behold.
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#150
please note that when a certian Prince of the realm, the Queens grandson went to Afghanistan he wore a cap with the legend 'we do bad things to bad people' now he has never apologised for that. He was also shown calling up an air strike from the safety of the back field. Now then all I would ask is that anybody look at the situation before harry was sent to Afghanisatan and the serious way it has deteriorated since his visit. A visit which was kept fromn the British poublic because of complicity by the media. Those were days of shame for the media because it has exposed the way in which certain things are hushed up, the use of High Court injunctions against some former soldiers for example.
As for Harry, please note that it was he who said that if he was not sent to the front then he would resign, I may paraphrase but in essence that is the message I got from an interview he gave. So, he would refuse orders and just resign. May I suggest that readers look at the number of senior and junior officers who are now resigning from the army. We should also be told how many soldiers are actually refusing orders, going AWOL, or sustaining non life threatening injuries so as to avoid going to 'the front'. For example, i have heard that some deliberately smoke cannibis so that they are discharged.
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Sagamix 169
In that case if private education provides the top jobs in this Country you should be asking why state education is so bad under Labour. Why over 12 years has there been no improvement under Labour and why social mobility has gone down from the last Conservative Government.
Another question would be why Labour are now trying to adopt the Conservatives ideas on education.
Please no posh boy answers it lowers the tone of the debate and does you no favours in others eyes who like to take you seriously.
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Why is Andrew Neil, editor of the Spectator, which regularly posts comments describing Palestinians as ;
- rats
- cockroaches
- a nation of suicide bombers,
- dogs not fit to live in their own back yard
and all of whose bloggers are self described Zionists, with not one Muslim let alone Palestinian voice, allowed to host a BBC progarmme funded by the British license payer?
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Isn't politics fun eh? hutchg is right in that the BBC is publically funded and therefore MUST remain impartial when it comes to reporting ANYTHING.
I do believe the BBC's founding principles were to inform, educate and entertain. I don't pay a license fee for someone's personal opinion, I pay it for quality journalism.
As regards News Int., Murdoch has his hand around the throat of the British public, but they are too stupid to know when they are being taken for mugs. Murdoch only joined the Blair bandwagon because of Blue Labour's policies in 1997 because they matched his own. You could argue what you want about public opinion, but the 1992 election was NK's for the taking, and see how the Wizard of Oz waved his 'magic'. He couldn't have him at Number 10. Petty politics. Can we have some real socialism please, for the whole and not the few?
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la croft @ 176
trouble is Susan, by embracing the Sun newspaper as they have, the Conservatives are dumbing themselves down - they're sinking to my level, if you like - the Election coming up should really be fought on issues like public spending, tax, government debt, defence ... you know, all the issues which you and I like to natter about ... and I guess Labour WILL be fighting on those issues, but the Cs (with this new Sun angle) are going to be all about fake tans and knicker elastic - it's going to be hard now (isn't it?) for there to be a proper campaign - they (the Tories) have that exact problem you mention ... how are we meant to take them seriously? - we all want to, of course, but how on Earth can we?
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P.S. This is a perfect opportunity for the BBC to lead the way in quality reporting. I hope they don't let us down.
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175. At 1:03pm on 01 Oct 2009, T A Griffin (TAG) wrote:
#150
Self-inflicated injury in battle is a trait and causative effect. Historical FACT.
[i SHOT MYSELF IN THE FOOT, sir......... Baldric BLACKADDER [DRAMA based on observational skills]]
Conditions occasion certain behaviours at certain times - manifestly.
The purported threat to resign by Prince Harry* and the cannabis abuse by others are the SAME SYMPTOMS. Harry's threat has no less self-inflicted repercussional resonance than that of the unknown soldier-drug abuser.
AND YOU MUST QUESTION: Is it WRONG that the media expose the whereabouts of a *vital link in our armour on the field of battle? anymore than the local rag should show a photo of a local serviNg lad or lass, with the caption 'Our brave soldier Jimmy/Jenny is .............. today - catch it live on-line' aNSWER: SHEER FOLLY
[ARMOUR IN GENESIS - mozartian]
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EXPEDITIOUS
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Now that The Sun has decided to promote Tory leaders Cameron and Osborne,is it possible that they will be replacing their normal Page 3 coverage with a photograph of Dave and George in their Bullingdon Club uniforms?
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#177 pp
Welcome.
Your post above tells those that read it more than your text conveys.
Nobody can hope to advance their arguement by simply mirroring the behavior of those they oppose.
Happy posting and happy voting to you.
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177#
He isnt the Editor of the Spectator, thats Fraser Nelson, who took over about 3 weeks ago.
Before that, it was Matthew D'Ancona from 2005-2009.
Do you want to write for The Spectator? Why dont you try asking them?
And what has this got to do with Andrew or the BBC???
You'd do well to check your facts first.
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Isn't it funny that now Labour has lost the support of the Sun, they say it doesn't matter.
Perhaps the Sun doesn't have as much influence as it once had. I suspect the Sun switches allegiance to follow public opinion, rather than lead it.
The important issue is Labour has lost support of the voters. At the next election, that will be what counts.
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120. At 00:31am on 01 Oct 2009, JD1001 wrote:
If David Cameron makes it to number 10, will the last person to leave the country turn out the lights?
Answer:
Sure thing buster!
[for the 'what's the word for one who neither reads of writes?': Solves the Mad Dog diplomatic niggle - fading into insignificance - and curing global warming in one fell-swoop]
[[still on the bottle I see, with a pseudonym like that!]]
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154#
Crap.
Change the record, its getting extremely boring.
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palestininanpatroit 177
This is a British blog hosted by a Scottish Commentator, on British politics, the particular topic at the moment is The Sun newspaper and the Labour Conference.
It is therefore not for us or the BBC to interfere in any other Countries politics. I object to your manner and your slights on Andrew Neil who has no ability to answer. I further say to you, that even if we were all zionists which we are not, it is not for you to pass comment on or show prejudice, as the subject is British. In Britain we are very tolerant of others beliefs and make no distinction by religion between people.
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188#
My apologies 154, that was targeted at Saga, 169#
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Mods... here... 'respec...;)
However, have also checked out Mr. Robinson's organ of exchange, and nothing yet since yesterday's 'home for tea' freedom of limited speech shut-down.
Which, at time of writing, suggests that if he does manage one today (it being a major political blog and, one presumes, a bit of politics still going on today worthy of comment... albeit none too great for certain quarters), at best 'we' (licence payers) have 2 1/2 hrs to get in before... happy hour is over again.
Ah, the sweet smell of public service broadcasting... going a bit 'off' in some parts. IMHO.
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Sagamix 179
I was that busy laughing, I forgot what the question was.
Nicely side-stepped, you are so good Saga, I love your posts.
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179#
God mate, you dont half talk some rubbish. You could at least make an attempt to defend what you're saying.
Otherwise you end up just being one of those irritating little midges that just buzzes around which everyone tries to swat away.
Have you actually got anything cohesive to add to the debate at all??
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Baldric: "Who are you calling a minion?" (petulantly)
[Bladder: Make way, minions!], pulled up by his teacher/supoff/
"sorry Sir polymath"
aah, yesss ................................ PACINO/ Richard lll
Has anyone actually ever told u s that Shakespeare is alive and kicking - still and ever? Golden Age logic.
THIS IS ONE the media can definitely get their grubby mits onto --
OR sadly mimisculed to Peter Semple's old column in EWSTENCE - still with UNS, dunderheid, is what EWSTENCE means = roughly translated as In Excelsis....................
end.
............................................-------------------------
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moving up to ANblog011009
FINIS
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bit late, aren't we, haevy nicht?
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#169
You appear to be using the term 'unfit' (suprising as I went to a private school myself)in a way I haven't come across before, as in the "they're a toff party who are unfit for office". The cause of the confusion is because seemingly it implies you think that the present administration is fit for purpose. Can that be the case? Perhaps you could explain, if it is the case, why you think that is.
I'm sure I am not the only one who would be enthralled at the knowledge which seemingly passes mostly everyone else by.
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an yohr maw eez good looken so hussh kleines - leitel baybee, doh,oh,n't yoooo crrrrrahaye - ppp eeeeeeeeee
wun ahv deeez mahrnnnihns yor gawnharaheezahp seeeeng= Gen...
an you site your ways in the strom of the passsssht
baht teeel that Mahrneeen
Thayrss a nutth(It.)en kan haurm yooo
weeth dahdee en maw/hmeee sshtehn (Ger.)- aynn - deeen BAH-yeee.
cadenza]]
for alfie inglenook maestrosity, x
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197#
I hope you've got a big flask of coffee, probably some ration packs, some marine distress flares and an inflatable life raft.
Because the polar ice caps will have melted before Saga gives you a straight answer to a straight question. Just another one trick pony class hatred filled Champagne Socialist.
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More of the same....
From the Times....
"An upcoming report on the Whitehall leak inquiry that led to the arrest of the Conservative MP Damian Green has been so heavily censored that some pages are entirely blacked out.
Scotland Yard is committed to publishing an internal review of the Green investigation, codenamed Operation Miser, which caused a political storm last year. But The Times has learnt that plans to publish the document later this month have met angry objections from senior civil servants and police officers featured in it.
The result, one source said, is a report that is so extensively redacted that it “makes MPs’ expenses look a model of transparency”.
Sir David Normington, the Home Office Permanent Secretary who first raised concerns that leaks of sensitive material could damage national security, is among those who have asked for passages to be blacked out. Former Assistant Commissioner Bob Quick, the policeman who led the inquiry, is understood to have objected to the publication of any part of the report. "
QFS.......
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Fubar_Saunders 193
Oh please Fubar do not get Saga started on private education, its been done to death and you know it brings the worst out in him. He grows horns on this subject.
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179. At 2:00pm on 01 Oct 2009, sagamix wrote:
..but the Cs (with this new Sun angle) are going to be all about fake tans and knicker elastic - it's going to be hard now (isn't it?) for there to be a proper campaign - they (the Tories) have that exact problem you mention ... how are we meant to take them seriously? - we all want to, of course, but how on Earth can we?
FCS Saga you really are talking poo now. Did Labour talk tans and knickers while the Sun was backing them?
C'mon you're just upset that you're going to have to give up the Sun and NOTW on principle.
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No199 Fubar,
Is that the case where the Tory activist,and council candidate was involved in a conspiracy with opposition front bencher dynamic Damien to break The Official Secrets Act? Do you think they both should have been prosecuted? Was he dumped by the Tories when he no longer served their needs?
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201#
Wasnae me Susie, someone else did it!
God, I'm starting to sound like Gordon......
Sorry, just caught me with the red mist descending (the wifes just had a run in with some pinhead civil serpent from the Revenue...) I'm getting mad as hell about all this evasiveness and blatant out and out smearing and lying. I've had about as much of it as I can stomach.
Suffice to say, the decision to emigrate has moved about 5 steps closer today. Come January next year, we sell the house and get the hell out. The UK is going further and further down the gurgler and this is as close to the proverbial U bend as I want to get. I've just had enough.
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#140, bryhers wrote:
2Mind.
It is hard to know where to begin:You seem to have abandoned your naive belief in a capitalist golden age after evidence to the contrary,but you still seems to owe more to your heroes on You Tube than to rational argument."
- I have no naive belief in capitalism. It's got inherent flaws - which is why it needs some regulation to stop it over-exploiting markets and self-destructing.
Brown told us we were living a golden age...
"You start by saying the flow of UK credit had ..."Nothing to do with the madness in the USA.` It had everything to do with it,UK banks were big buyers of US sub prime assets which they parcelled up and sold on.They used these circulating instruments as the foundation of a credit inflation which they intensified by engaging in sub prime lending themselves. The credit inflation was international and hidden, no-one understood it,not the bankers,the BOE,the FSA, the SEC or even the pope."
- Not even the economists?
Personal and corporate credit levels were totally visible. Even an amateur like me could see that too much money was being pushed at people within the UK. The BoE had been told to focus on inflation. The Treasury (especially Brown) rubbed his hands with glee at all the money he could collect. The FSA didn't seem to bother about serious regulation.
Banks forced money down people's throats. Not even money they had - but money the borrowed fairly short-term and lent long.
THAT part of the UK crisis was entirely visible, known about and ignored.There were commentators saying for years that we were floating in a credit bubble.
For a decade, UK net savings ratios plummeted like a stone, even against the relatively modest levels in recent history.
I seem to recall that Keynes described about the tension between savings and spending. I doubt he would have believed that minimal national savings, with massive increases in personal and corporate debt would have delivered a stable long-term environment.
The bankers created a complete mess especially with the instruments they created, making it almost impossible to see what true value they represented. (Mostly "made in the USA". Some clever idiots here in the City too...)
Credit rating agencies failed completely. If they had been honest - they'd have said "We can't rate this stuff, because we can't determine it's value". Bankers were dishonest in the very area where the other parts of the economy need certainty... they refused to properly examine the value of "assets" they claimed backed their strength.
Nobody regulated either the banks or the cerdit agencies, did they?
"Where does Keynes say "You can make up stuff for a while?" What kind of illiteracy are you ascribing to the greatest economist of the last century? The General Theory of Interest,Employment and Money (1936) was a mathematical exploration of the relationship between consumption,investment,interest and employment, and was the foundation of the post-war consensus on conditions for full employment in a free society, adopted by governments across the world."
- I think Keynes would have preferred governments injecting money they actually had or could borrow into a nation's economy, rather than using "quantative easing" (which is what I call making up money... Poor phraseology, I know, but it was late.)
Rather thought Keynesian thinking took a bit of a battering in the 1970s as, like any theory and computer model, it only tends to work if somehow the unexpected, the unpredictable, the totally stupid element of human activities can somehow be worked in.
(Like selfish, boorish bankers completely losing track of the importance of actually knowing what your staff are doing - and understanding just what value you'd find inside the box once you took off the pretty wrapping paper and read the hundreds of pages describing what it was all about. Haven't met any bank director yet admitting he didn't have a clue about the "assets" claimed as reserves.)
"It is obvious from your remarks you have not read Keynes or you would not make remarks like "Shove an economist in a corporate environment and a bit of reality will seep through." I thought it was the corporate environment that was responsible for the current crisis."
- I rather think that, had Keynes been wandering around the Treasury, BoE, FSA between 2001-2008 he'd have had a fit. By no sensible measurement could the UK economy have been considered stable. It was too credit-based.
And what I rather wanted to suggest is that economists who work in industry begin to understand that corporations do stupid things, waste lots of money, can be guided by people on personal missions of achievement... (Just like governments.) And that makes everybody wonder about trying to "buffer" ideas in a different way, so "models" are only believed up to a point.
"The difference between a reactionary and a conservative like myself is this: Those who lack the means of change lack the means of conservation! Crises are endemic in capitalism ,as much as you may want to attribute to them to hate figures like Mr. Brown."
- I don't hate Brown. I just believe he was an extremely bad Chancellor who chose not to look at the realities of his "own economic vision". He could have intervened across UK finance houses and limited credit flows at obscene levels. He could have exercised better financial discipline.
"State intervention is not intrinsically socialist,although it can be.It includes economies like Nazi Germany, and the USA where an expanded military sector is a stabilizing factor.The economic stagnation of the inter-war period brought us to the verge of defeat in 1940 when Germany won a European war. Chamberlain and his gang were using the same arguments you are using now,cut spending in a recession,keep your heads down and it will be allright.Economic crises are not an act of God,a holy visitation,they are man made and the remedies are in our hands."
bryhers, Existing Treasury documents show that there WILL be reductions in many areas of UK government spending. That's government policy. I'm quite happy with a mixed economy. All sectors waste. Always have and always will. What I object to is a government spraying money around like an arsonist with a petrol can, then sounding surprised when they stop for a fag and it all goes up in flames.
Don't think Keynes would have liked that much.
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Just watched Hattie's round up on the BBC politics page (mercifully, trimmed to 43 seconds, without any loss of content).
What is it with Brown and crew that they have to deliver their speeches in lists of 3? - "Every day.., every week.., every month..", "Let no-one a, let no-one b... and let no-one c..". etc
They must think that it is a great oratorical device but, for me, this padding of drivel with more drivel and yet more drivel is not big, is not clever and is not impressive.
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203#
You can call it what you like mate. Sledgehammer to crack a walnut is what I'd call it.
The fact that Gordon laid the foundations for his reputation as a parliamentarian by doing exactly the same 15-20 years ago is neither here nor there. Then again, I guess John Major wasn't the mentally ill control freak that Gordon is.
Sauce for the goose and all that.
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It does matter, The Sun is a boost for the Tories who are gonna take this ever falling country right into the sewers pass the drains.
The Sun's readership is religious and retarded. Similar to the Daily Mail being racist and retarded. Both are now Conservative leaning papers. Being from an ethnic minority (3rd generation) I worry for myself, my people and my family of the effects of having Tories in power.
The BBC is a disgrace as well, Mr Mackenzie works for you, despite being one of the most inhumane people every to exist. Getting rid of him, now that would be a story.
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Dear Fubar
Thanks for the split hairs.
For your information, Neil is the Spectator's Executive Editor. He was formerly CEO. He appointed D Ancona, and more recently Nelson to run the magazine day to day.
What goes in that magazine, therefore, including in to its MODERATED blogs, is entirely his responsibility.
Can I take it from your apparently carefree attitude to racial and religious hatred that you would be as non plussed if a mainstream UK magazine described Jews in the same way?
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fubar @ 193
otherwise you end up just being one of those irritating little midges that just buzzes around
do you want to write my blogs for me then? ... you can if you like
I'll give you a point and you put it into grown up (although slightly florid) "man of the world" language ... "fubarise" it for me, as it were
okay, here we go
uno:
I think the fact that the Tory leadership is largely drawn from a narrow pool of highly privileged individuals who went to the same (ultra elite) public school is a real issue, not a triviality
have a go and if it looks good, I'll send you the next one
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05. fairlyopenmind
I wonder how Keynes would feel about all the 'experts' who have spoken on his behalf lately. Things have changed just a wee bit since the 1930s. I don't think he would have encouraged unemployed people to accept a string of credit cards or favoured 120% mortgages.
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208#
My, what a tolerant soul you are. You've just described over 5 million of your fellow citizens, who you would have been born alongside and grown up with, gone to school with, as religious, racist and retarded.
I dont think I've even heard that kind of vitriol from the BNP...
I'm completely lost though as to how The Sun's readership could be described as "religious" [laughs out loud]... unless the church is football....
If its an ever falling country, why dont you do what I'm doing? Emigrate. Let it sink behind you.
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206. sterling-donefor
..because it's the right thing to do.
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Fubar_ Saunders 204
I too have come to that conclusion as well, its abroad for me for good. A lot of people I know are doing the same. The thing is you get told life is wonderful in Britain, however when you taste other fruit, like nice weather, low tax, good healthcare, not having to worry about being attacked for no reason etc you realise people who actualy believe this are living in cloud cuckoo land.
The thing is, you work hard to get a good position in your job and as you income rises you are expected to give most of it away in taxes to provide for others that will not work, or who have babies they cannot afford and so on. Its just not fair and it is just not right.
Its nice to drive your car without speed cameras, speed bumps all over the place, police always on your back. Manners are another thing which have been forgotten in Britain.
The Inland Revenue chase the wrong people, they never catch up with the real people who are committing fraud it is always the innocent.
All in all enough is enough.
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209#
I take a very dim view of bigotry and hatred from whichever corner it comes from. If you mean am I going to take to the streets waving banners about it, no. Its not my problem. Not my fight. It does not affect me either directly or indirectly.
I also think that its one of the reasons why organised religion has outlived its useful purpose, but thats another story.
Palestine isnt about religion, its about politics and power and territory.
And to be honest, like the Sun and the Mail, I dont read the Spectator. I have no idea what it publishes and to be honest, dont particularly care either. I'm sure some of the descriptions that the more politically active Palestinian community have about the Spectator are equally as florid as the ones you allege against Andrew Neil.
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Absolutely off topic, but absolutely everything to do with government policies
...and this might be the only blog that I can post it on for the BBC
What does the conviction of the nursery nurse on child abuse say about the systems through which she was accredited to work with children?
What does the system say about the fact that a convicted sex offender (the BBC doesn't say whether or not he was actually on the sex offenders register) was allowed to send and receive these images whilst commenting and presumably getting some personal gratification?
Is there someone within the BBC who will hold the government policy to account?
Who is responsible for its "failure" again?
I am beginning to believe that it is a system set up to fail, and the whole thing needs fully investigating to discover whether or not the whole reason and mandate of the "checks" is actually fully understood, funded, and carried through.
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blame @ 202
you're just upset that you're going to have to give up the Sun and NOTW on principle
okay I confess, I do get the Sun now and again - got it today, actually, and guess what? ... their page 3 girl (usual bimbo shot) was billed as being "Harriet" from "Peckham" - now THAT's taking the poo - got me trembling with rage - god
renton @ 197
okay sorry, I was overstating it with "unfit for office" but it's a serious issue in my opinion - pls see 210 above, and let's take a look at the same point in fubar speak when he gets the time to do it
susan @ 192
flattery - I'm a sucker for it - but don't think I don't know what your game is - yes ... exactly ... that
wasn't born yesterday you know
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211#
I dont want to write your blogs for you Saga, I just wish you'd get to the damn point and argue your case instead of just flinging mud, making disparaging things up.
You say the fact that what you perceive to be a large number of the tory front bench being privately educated is an issue for you. Fine. Thats a point of view. We all have them.
But the fact that you had a prime minister for two and a half terms who was privately educated, the fact that your heroine Hatty is not only also privately educated, but by her birthline could stand equally alongside your "vacuous poshboys" shoulder to shoulder, the fact that your chancellor in waiting is also not only privately educated, but also belonged to one of the notorious Oxford drinking clubs who belittled women - none of these things bother you?
Its double standards, its hypocrisy and it undermines any credibility you ever might have had on these blogs. Doesnt the fact that people laugh at your posts and dont take you serious not bother you?
Or do you just do it for the attention?
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strictly confidetial: Val Newman, West Country Artist in Residence
mailbox:///C|/Documents%20and%20Settings/Jane/Application%20Data/Thunderbird/Profiles/n9x0y19f.default/Mail/Local%20Folders/Inbox?number=89355736&part=1.2&type=image/pjpeg&filename=Brean%20Cottage%20watercolour.jpg
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DITTO
mailbox:///C|/Documents%20and%20Settings/Jane/Application%20Data/Thunderbird/Profiles/n9x0y19f.default/Mail/Local%20Folders/Inbox?number=89355736&part=1.3&type=image/pjpeg&filename=Brean%20Down%20Cottage%20mixed%20media.jpg
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palestinianpatriot 209
It does not matter who is Editor of the Spectator is it has no relevence here. Andrew Neil cannot answer for himself on here and none of us are interested in your religious wars. Take it up with the proper body if you think there is a problem and leave other bloggers to discuss the subject in hand. You would be much better employed searching for an answer as to how to resolve your differences as jews and muslims than peddling this hatred.
I have never said this to a blogger before but if you continue I will have you moderated.
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210. At 3:53pm on 01 Oct 2009, sagamix wrote:
I think the fact that the Tory leadership is largely drawn from a narrow pool of highly privileged individuals who went to the same (ultra elite) public school is a real issue, not a triviality
-----
If the ultra elite public school to which you are referring is Eton, as far as I am aware, the only members of the shadow cabinet who attended were Letwin and Cameron. (Unless you have some other information that would make your 'fact' an actual fact).
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onlydez 208
You are very free when calling people racist, if you do come from ethnic minority how would you feel if we called you a racist just for reading a newspaper. You take a whole group of people and call them names and expect no one to answer you back. How dare you say such terrible things about people you do not know.
Furthermore if the the Country is falling as you put it Labour have been in office the last 12 years so they are entirely to blame not the Conservatives.
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Chad Cameroon Pipeline (CCP)
Please see this website which shows a photograph of the welding operations on the CCP and this photograph confirms my claims of tardy health and safety on the CCP. Can you imagine how many kids have been blinded by such malpractices, ditto for monkies along the 650 mile pipeline routing.
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=cameroon++oil&meta=
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sagamix 217
Well enlighten me because I do not have a clue. You just make me laugh. I do not know anyone who could get away with the rubbish you write, and still sound plausible.
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EXXONMOBIL2
This is just the situation I was trying to talk about on the previous blog. People just do not understand what things are being done in their name by Governments and associated bodies. Megrahi is just a small one.
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217. sagamix
their page 3 girl (usual bimbo shot) was billed as being "Harriet" from "Peckham"
r u serious? Brilliant. And it's only going to get worse, it's a war Labour can't win. The writs will be flying soon, wait 'till Prezza gets stuck in.
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224 Exxon2
Wondered where you had gone.
Did you notice that the commercial channel adverts last night included loads for EXM ? Never seen them advertise in their own right before.
Allabout some gas pipeline coming ashore in Wales.
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Just what was Hariet Harman trying to achieve with her plea to Arnold Schwartznegger to block a web site she does not approve of ?
One, under the Americal Constitution the plea is a non starter, freedom of speech and all that.
Secondly, nobody I know had ever heard of this website until HH gave it massive publicity. There is even a letter on it now thanking HH for giving them more business.
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226. Susan-Croft wrote:
This is just the situation I was trying to talk about on the previous blog. People just do not understand what things are being done in their name by Governments and associated bodies. Megrahi is just a small one.
SC please don't bring that up again... our mate will be all over this blog like a rash. I'd like an early night tonight!
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DID I miss an announcement that you are not blogging today?
time to move on, methinks. do yooooo concurrrr/weeneelee?
from squeeleebeastie xxx
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dinner's on the table (at LASST!) - byzeebyee
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fairlyopenmind 205
Fairly, Bryhers and I have been through all this before, and whilst I do not agree one hundred per cent with you analysis I am on your side. However Bryers is a complete student of Keynes and there will never be a meeting of minds on this one for you.
Economists at the time of the last election were giving advice to the Government that capital to lending in banks was a problem and that there would be a crash due to the credit bubble being created. It is to be remembered that there are two separate things happening at once and they seem now to be getting confused. There is a World downturn for instance other Countries had no problems with their banks and lending to their customers was done on a sound basis, however the fall in demand for commodities put them into recession, Australia is a good example. However Britains problems are mainly due to this massive credit bubble. Both Government and personal debt will make it many years before we will be anywhere near having a sound economy again.
I have said to bryhers that Keynes theories to a great extent are now dismissed as too simplistic as the World has changed and banking etc is far more complex. Balancing the books is seen as a much better option these days.
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What is the world coming to?Fubar and Susan, two of our most prolific bloggers leaving the country. I did not realise that the prospect of a Cameron led government could have such seismic consequences. I hope you both find happiness in abundance in your new situations.
Susan, could I recommend a Scandanavian country, in the main, they have fabulous public services, a fraction of the mental problems found in the UK and the US, and untold opportunities for thrusting entrepreneurs.
Sadly a small number of Tory like neanderthals are showing their ugly faces, but I know you will be able to handle them.
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Blame 230
Sorry, oh please no.
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226. Susan-Croft
"Megrahi is just a small one."
That horse died a long time ago. Quit flogging it. The release of al-Megrahi had nothing to do with "oil deals". Elvis is dead. And there's no Santa Claus. Time for you to grow up.
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No233 Susan,
Before you leave could you please let me have a list of those that are 'dismissing' Keynes.They were rather sparce at the recent G20 meeting. I am fascinated at the link you make between the father of demand management and the complexity of modern banking practices.
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233. Susan-Croft
"Keynes theories to a great extent are now dismissed"
On what planet? You come out with this nonsense at the very time when there has been a massive resurgence of interest in Keyensian theories. And the most massive application of his ideas since the 1930s.
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I have never said this to a blogger before but if you continue I will have you moderated.
and me too, will too,
well said SUSAN
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No236 Electric Hermit,
You state 'Elvis is dead' not according to The Sun the last time I read it. They reported on the front page, that he was still alive, living on the moon - in a London Red Bus.I am led to believe that Kelvin makes regular visits to make sure he is OK.
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any bulletins yet from the palatzfawnNEELIE_BELLY?
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140. bryhers
Excellent post.
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214#
You're right Susan, although peversely, most of the things you mention as being reasons to leave, are also in the place where I am currently, in probably equally large numbers, save for the ever pursuant HMRC. They have speed cameras, they have bad driving (god, do they have bad driving...), they have polished bureaucracy to a fine lustre and my understanding from accountants that I have spoken to over here is that taxation is higher.
But, you know what... its not about any of those things. Its about quality of life, its about not being under surveillance, its about not having your bins microchipped and the council applying for orders under RIPA to keep their eyes on you, its about having a police force with some sort of teeth, its about not being hounded to pay tax on income you havent even earned in two years... Many things are not better, if compared directly like for like with the UK. Some, like healthcare, public transport, etc are. Oh and the pays better as well. Even with god knows how many expats from all over the world, somehow, rates are still good, compared to the sharky practises that are happening back in the UK at the moment.
But its the whole atmosphere in Britain at the moment that stinks. In every way it is only going to get worse. The wife and I have precious few years left and I'm damned if I'm going to spend them picking up the peices of Brown's scorched earth policy... just because he believed he was born to it... Theres a lot of things that have to change before we come back.
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234#
Thanks Sout, very kind of you to say so... even though I can tell your tongue is very firmly lodged in your cheek.
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Excuse me if I'm wrong... with regard to JMK, isnt one of the principles known as pump priming? I'm sure the students of his theory will correct me if not.
Whilst it seems to me it has its place (as could be seen from the extremely gentle, barely noticeable pump priming after 9/11 that happened over here, rather than in the US).. isnt it a bit worrying that (if we continue the pump analogy) that when you hook the pump up to the proverbial hydrant that the damn thing is dry - and you're having to borrow the water from the other side of the world? Either way, at some point, yes, you may need the water to feed the crops that are the wider economy, but at some point you're going to get a water bill. A big one.
Nothing ever comes for free. Any of the Keynsian advocates care to comment?
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#240
That was the Daily Sport.
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240. braveSouter
"You state 'Elvis is dead' not according to The Sun the last time I read it. They reported on the front page, that he was still alive, living on the moon - in a London Red Bus.I am led to believe that Kelvin makes regular visits to make sure he is OK."
All of which sounds distinctly more plausible than Kenny MacAskill and Muammar Gaddafi cutting deals in the back room of some dingy bar in Tripoli.
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245. Fubar_Saunders
"with regard to JMK, isnt one of the principles known as pump priming?"
You are correct. The idea being to stimulate aggregate demand. Or, more precisely, to trigger a process which will ultimately stimulate aggregate demand.
In an earlier post I said that Keynes ideas were being applied. But this is true only in the loosest sense. The effectiveness of "pump priming" depends on which pump is primed and when. The most effective way of triggering growth in aggregate demand is to inject the stimulus at the bottom of the economy at a point in the cycle when the demand stimulated can still be supplied.
Priming the pump at this level and at this point ensures that the effect is applied principally to non-discretionary spending which stimulates production of basic goods and services first, minimising inflationary pressures. Such spending is also very much more predictable - and therefore controllable - than spending further up the economic structure.
Much of what has been done over the past year or two, while being labelled "Keynesian", is not. The pumps that have been primed are at the very top of the economy, rather than the bottom. The result has been that the onward distribution of the funds has been at the discretion of the economically powerful. It has not the desired stimulus effect because it is being spent on bonuses rather than bread. The funds injected are not actually active in the economy at all - other than to the severely limited extent that there is any incidental "trickle-down".
To see something closer to Keynesian pump-priming in action we need only look at the various car scrappage schemes. While far from being the bottom of the economy, the stimulus is still far enough from the top for it to be effective in triggering economic activity all the way up. And while there is virtually no trickle-down effect from the top of the economy, as one comes further down this effect actually increases in line with the proportion of total spending which is non-discretionary. ( Bearing in mind that "discretionary" is a scale rather than a dichotomy.)
An over-simplification, of course. But that's generally the best starting point.
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.
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nerve pain highly sensitive from lumbar/sacral - sharp pointed [/Nervines?]
Liquorice ---glyyherizza [sick understatement at loss og all time konterm mempory lostt*]
liver salts
*sroquel 6.45 orally taken gmt
no wonder memory lapsing - sedative
oops abd aknost forgt washed down with two swidge of Waitrose organic cider (Chateau Bradley look alike - I WHISH - we#re on our last bottle, Miles, any chance of a gratis giftie?????????personal deliveryCOMMAND'ED)
cHATEAU BRADLEY LAMBOURNE CONSUMED AT DINNER SAUSAGES ONIONS TATTIES GRRN MUSTARD BANANA PINE NUT KERNELS FRESH PICKED PEAR.
mILES DO YOU STILL INTEND TO utilise/TAKE/pick OUR SURPLUS CROP FOR YOUR ALCHEMICAL CIDERING? AND PERRYING? eeh lad, that twurr grrend yoyerr!.........
peter, patrick et al
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Keynes policies have been dismissed really since the 1970s when it was used extensively. It was found that it led to stagflation. Keynes policies rely on low taxation and spending more and do not worry about the deficits in turn this stimulates the wider economy and encourages employment. This is not the policy being used at the moment by Britain. Britain has high taxation for both personal and business. The money being printed and the debt being incurred everyday is not reaching the wider economy it is going to service the debt we have to prop up the economy. In other words in the form of bonds the money is printed by the Bank Of England and then is going straight into the treasury to prop up debt. In which case the wider economy is not being stimulated. Keynes would certainly not have done this.
You can pump prime but the danger of this is that you will over stimulate the economy which will in turn lead to excessive inflation. This method can be used when an economy is in slight trouble and can be successful as in the Kennedy years in America. However this needs careful planning and balance. However these were nowhere near the problems we have today.
None of these things are happening in Britain, all that is happening is all toxic debt and Government debt is being propped up as is private debt within banks by the Government. This is disastrous both for the wider economy and for the public sector as continuous spending on this scale leads to failures in all areas of the economy.
Bravescouter I will not try to upset you but the only time the economy was in perfect balance between the public sector and the private in recent times was at the end of the Major Government. Economists now believe this is the only way that a strong economy can be achieved by always keeping this balance.
Of course Brown has allowed the economy to become an ever shrinking private sector and a massive public sector which relies on too few people to pay the taxes to accommodate the public sector. Unless the economy is pulled back into balance by deep cuts in the public sector we are doomed.
There is now nowhere to go, we have a high taxation Country which cannot attract new business, we have high unemployment to come, unpresidented Government debt, people have high level of personal debt therefore they will not spend. The only way forward is to cut services right across the board in the public sector and stop spending.
My way forward would be to cut the public sector and even though we are in recession and debt introduce flat tax right across personal and business. This would be simple to administer and would need very few staff, it would encourage business because we would be a low tax Country, people would keep more of their own money so they would spend and businesses would employ more staff taking people out unemployment. There would be very little tax avoidance, business and skilled people would stay in the Country rather than leave as at the moment. However this is just my way forward.
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treatment cont'd
caffeine in moderation
/7 & rather alot of golden virginia tipped diy-jobs
eye lids picking up....
much more relaxed et yawny...good now worried suddenly - mbc creeping abou thinking - must be a first...............
scotsv..............spouseestand in -
oraculum.........Ecosse via flanders.
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EH 248
That is completely wrong and is not what is happening in Britain. Anyway you congradulated Bryers on his post which is pure Keynes or was that just for my benefit.
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251. Susan-Croft
"we have a high taxation Country which cannot attract new business"
Not true, of course. But what price facts when there's whingeing to be done. Almost every country in Europe has higher taxes than the UK. You sound like you might be a disciple of the Prophet Laffer. Keep telling yourself that everybody is "laffing" with you.
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spontaneuous singing.........vocalizing....................kelpieying
still can't record transmit this route? slow poll true then, low ranking broadband.
rainforestharp
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kelpie shetland seal
skelpie
silkie
seelkie
schkelpie
sheelkee
baby's resonate..........
Lynn Bennett-Mackenzie
courtesy Z.sibyl, w--s-mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm aware about location finders.
[did you pick up Brownlie - pronounced Brownlea ?)
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253. Susan-Croft
"That is completely wrong and is not what is happening in Britain."
Waht is "wrong"? What is "not what is happening in Britain"? You make no sense.
Of course I congratulated bryhers. It was an excellent post. Quite where you get the idea that it was "pure Keynes" is anybody's guess. all I saw was someone who understands Keynesian economics. Unlike yourself.
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245
No.
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No251Susan
I just asked a simple question. Who and where are the people dismissing Keynes?
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bulletin:
metaphorically shut out - obeying order to be quiet - of my own sitting room-fire-side (at this time of night the norm is not as of now!)
I can NOT be quiet. how can I deny my schkelpie-nature? Beat's me!
brownlie-any news? jokey sort of name for a sinister threatener? plant!ll/
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248#
Thanks E-H, very informative.
251#
Susan, you too, but from a different perspective.
I understand what E-H is saying and it does fill in some gaps for me. Both of you are saying that although recent behaviour may be labelled Keynsian, in true terms it isnt although what has been used has been part of what could I guess be termed a Keynsian "toolset". Both of you have highlighted the fact that timing of the stimulus is as important as the size, which is understandable.
I think your views are a lot closer than you both might initially think. Susan, taxation in the UK might seem to be high, but as I have found out myself over the last few days, there are other places, particularly in Europe where the levels of direct taxation are higher than what they are in Britain.
The difference is though, is the mind-sapping complexity of taxation law in the UK and the staggering breadth of it which makes it difficult to understand and an absolute pig to administer and manage. The levels of stealth taxes, duties and other such punative measures which arent necessarily against "sins" (booze, fags, etc) but everyday essentials, including domestic energy and fuel - more people are having to pay them rather than them being used as a method to discourage consumption - that is what has led to the exasperation with the current tax system and got people to the point where they feel they are being punatively taxed for everything.
Not everything is as it seems and perception counts for a lot.
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Susan-C
SC, have you seen the recent Populus poll that revealed 61% of those questioned think al-Megrahi's release was about oil, not compassion.
Does that surprise you?
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CAR SCRAPPAGE
Dunno about all the Keynes stuff, was he from Miltion?
But one perhaps unforseen effect of making 10 year old bangers worth 2k is that there is a lack of entry level used cars for the new driver to buy.
So if the first step on the "wheels ladder" has been removed surely that will affect the rest of the car market.
I am sure those much more Keynesian than me will advise/correct me.
Look forward to reading on return from the pub,you coming Croftie?
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261. Fubar_Saunders
"timing of the stimulus is as important as the size"
But neither the timing nor the size of the stimulus is as important as the point at which it is applied. It must be understood that times have changed since Keynes formulated his theories. The principle concern, alongside inflation, is that the newly created demand will manifest as import demand. In the early days of Keynesianism this was not a major issue because the relevant economies, the US and the UK, were principally producers/exporters. Demand would almost always be supplied from within the economy.
As the balance of trade changed, Keynesian pump-priming only worked if accompanied by import controls - tariffs - to prevent "leakage" of demand. Then came globalisation. Protectionism became a dirty word. And it is now all but impossible to apply the import controls that normal Keynesian pump-priming would require.
Which is one of the reasons why the stimulus must be injected at the low end of the economy, where it will produce demand for basic goods and services. Demand which is less likely to leak into imports. Not guaranteed, of course. But in the absence of import controls we do what we can.
The other reason for pump-priming the low end of the economy is that doing so produces a bigger bang for your buck. The poor will but two loaves of bread instead of one - doubling demand for locally produced goods. The rich already have more bread than they can eat. They are more likely to buy caviar - imported caviar.
A trivial example. But illustrative, I hope. For the stimulus to be effective, it must circulate. It must be active within the economy. All activity in an economy tends to flow upwards. Only a stimulus at the bottom can impact the economy as a whole.
Propping up the banks was a doomed and massively wasteful strategy from the start. It relied on the quaint notion of the "trickle-down effect". The frankly infantile idea that big fish feed little fish, rather than feeding on them. What was supposed to happen was that the banks would increase lending to businesses and in the housing sector - pushing money against the current down the economy. This was never going to happen. Banks operate on one very simple rule. We shall not loose! The vast bulk of the taxpayer-funded bail-out was always going to stay within the finance sector and its most powerful clients.
The scheme to "save the world" was no such thing. It was a scheme to restore the status quo ante. In that sense, it has probably been a resounding success. But in terms of economic pump-priming, I would be not at all surprised to learn that the relatively cheap car scrappage scheme has had a greater effect than all the billions poured into the banks.
With a little guts and imagination it could all have been very different. Our political and business leaders are to be condemned not only for creating the mess, but for failing to seize the opportunity it presented to effect some meaningful reforms.
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263. xTunbridge
"But one perhaps unforseen effect of making 10 year old bangers worth 2k is that there is a lack of entry level used cars for the new driver to buy."
Quite right. But bear in mind that Keynsian pump-priming is supposed to be a short term strategy aimed at producing a long-term effect. The scrappage scheme, while certainly a good model for a form of pump-priming, is too narrow in scope and focused in its effect to produce that long-term effect on its own. But it is the only success story the government has. So they will probably extend it to the point where it ceases to work and even does more harm than good. Just so they can point to it and say they have done something right.
These are not stupid people. They understand all this full well. It is not stupidity that is the problem but fear. The fear of doing something new. Something innovative. Something bold.
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David Starkey on excellent form on QT.
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264#
OK, I see the difference now. Thanks.
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#262 TheBlameGame
"SC, have you seen the recent Populus poll that revealed 61% of those questioned think al-Megrahi's release was about oil, not compassion.
Does that surprise you?"
I don't know what Susan will think, but it certainly doesn't surprise me. I wonder if those polled had a grasp on the facts, particularly in relation to which administration, Westmisnter or Holyrood, bore responsibility for the 'trade deal' and which for the compassion.
It really is disappointing there still remains such confusion on such issues. It seems even politicians and those in the media can still manage to conflate the two.
#266 Fubar_Saunders
"David Starkey on excellent form on QT."
Unsurprisingly I'm not his greatest fan from certain comments he's made in the past.
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snet et EXPEDITED! lISS eLIZABETH FOR QUEEN OF KWMNAY++]]r.
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After the economy's been wrapped around a tree trunk, it's a shame to say that there's probably not a lot of money to be made out of it now, and the primary function isn't to make it an economy fit for bankers.
In the unlikely event that any bank did make substantial profits, of the order seen in previous years, whatever party is in power is likely to levy penal taxation. It's not anti Capitalist. We're just going to be in that deep a mess.
As for leaving the country, I'd leave myself if I had that option, so it isn't a threat but a demonstration of how lucky they are. A scaled down economy is unlikely to need a financial sector of the same size it had previously.
Once government debt is downgraded, and that's a very likely possibility. we're on a slippery slope where there'll be major controversy over public finance. Energy shortages, public sector pensions and the Afghan war are just a few areas demanding extra investment we don't have, and on top of this the IMF are directing us to reduce NHS spending.
Turning to the Tories is probably more a symptom of how desperate things are, and it's made possible by Gordon's loss of credibility, only matched by greater loss of credibility by the financial sector.
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David Starkey on excellent form on QT
a bit self regarding for my taste
bet he wanted to wear a bow tie but they wouldn't let him
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262. TheBlameGame
"61% of those questioned think al-Megrahi's release was about oil, not compassion.
Does that surprise you?"
It certainly doesn't surprise me. Not given the massive media disinformation campaign that surrounded events. One only has to read some of the ill-informed drivel posted in places like this. The only difficulty is distinguishing between the ignorance and the downright lies. But when the same people persist in posting the same untruths even after the falsehood has been pointed out, there is no longer any room for doubt.
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264. 265. Electric Hermit
EH, your comments in the posts above are well-written and can be understood even by an economic peasant such as myself. Which means I cannot and would not try to either critisise them or endorse them. They do however make sense and a change from the usual blanket endorsement of Keynes several decades on.
And all that without vitriol or a mention of Angry Vllagers. It can be done.
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266. Fubar_Saunders
"David Starkey on excellent form on QT."
If you're into posturing buffoons.
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#262 TheBlameGame
SC, have you seen the recent Populus poll that revealed 61% of those questioned think al-Megrahi's release was about oil, not compassion.
Please can you provide a link to the poll or otherwise for this 61%.
Have just read both the September and October Populus polls and cannot find this in either of them.
TIA
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273. TheBlameGame
"And all that without vitriol or a mention of Angry Vllagers."
I'm versatile.
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275. Roll_On_2010
"Please can you provide a link to the poll or otherwise for this 61%."
Times poll: 61% think al-Megrahi release was about oil, not compassion - Times Online
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275. Roll_On_2010
August 28th RO
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fubar @ 218
do you just do it for the attention?
I sense you're genuinely interested (which is nice for me) so a genuine answer
I'm anti conservative (both small c and BIG C) and the reason I blog is to push/communicate that position, and those values, any which way I can - and also because I like writing, obviously - and arguing the toss - plus I'm still single and I live with my mother, and I don't have too many friends, so it's a good hobby for me - Doctor confirmed that just yesterday - so a few jokes, sure, and a bit of messing around (why not?) but it's for a purpose - I'm serious about what I'm trying to get over and I make the points in my own sweet way - don't we ALL do that? - I hope we do - be a bit sad (wouldn't it?) to start tailoring how you express yourself just in order to stop upsetting other bloggers ... especially when you want to upset (certain) other bloggers! - so no, I don't really plan on doing that - any case if you did a statistical analysis of my posts (hey but don't!) I think you'd find that the stuff which may be particularly bugging you (vacuous posh boys, clowns, mortimax, bla bla) is quite a small proportion - and a couple of points on that
(1) it's better to make serious points in a trivial way than to do the opposite (which is what far too many people seem to do ... particularly clowns)
(2) the "mud" I throw around ... and the silly little epithets I've invented ... are AS NOTHING compared to the torrent of witless abuse which flows in the other direction - on the Robinson blog, I mean, not so much this one or the Peston one - plenty of that stuff from someone masquerading under your name, funnily enough - you should have a word, babe
anyway each to his own and, you know, whatever it takes
as to me (or you, or any of us) having credibility and being taken seriously, well that is in itself a joke ... isn't it?
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poll that revealed 61% of those questioned think al-Megrahi's release was about oil, not compassion
wonder if the questionnaire had a "not really sure" option?
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#278 TheBlameGame
#277 Electric Hermit
I thank both you. But unfortunately the poll is not on the Populus database. Not that I distrust the Times, God forbid it, but I do like to look at the raw details before I make up my mind.
If anybody can find the information for the poll I would be grateful.
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280. sagamix
It is also the case that it was a UK poll, and English Law is used to a system where the Home Secretary routinely overturns recommendations for release - which has never happened in Scotland, since the Tories brought Scotland into line with English practice.
While Scottish opinion is split as to whether al-Megrahi should have been released or not, there does not seem to have been the level of cynicism here as to the motivation for release.
Of course, it was much easier for MacAskill to take the "correct" decision in Scots Law, when that decision also benefited Scotland. We are unlikely to have an enhanced risk of terrorist attack. Scots firms are operating in Libya (and the supposed backlash from the USA is largely the creation of a US website, BBC Scotland, and ex-Labour MPs).
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281. Roll_On_2010
There can be a long delay, even in political polls, between publication by the commissioning agent, and release of data by the pollster. YouGov have only just released the data from a Fabian Society poll which was conducted in April.
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281. Roll_On_2010
"If anybody can find the information for the poll I would be grateful."
I wouldn't bother if I was you. The poll is more than a month old and was conducted at the height of a massive media campaign intended to misrepresent the facts and smear the Scottish government. It is of no significance.
Wait six months. Mr al-Megrahi will be dead, the facts will finally have caught up with the lies, and all but the most dull-witted and blinkered will be declaring that they approved of the decision all along.
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282. oldnat
"English Law is used to a system where the Home Secretary routinely overturns recommendations for release - which has never happened in Scotland"
It has. In the last ten years, seven of thirty applications for compassionate release were refused.
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So the Sun (regular version) has gone all glencambelly for the Tories. That's the boring part. I'm still more bemused by the Scottish version which can't bring itself to support Tories (they'd lose one heck of a lot of readers since Scots still hate Tories), have obviously been ordered not to support Labour, but are scared spitless of the SNP and the demand for a referendum on independence. You'd almost feel sorry for them if they didn't work for the Murdochs which means they've already sold their souls.
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#285. At 02:21am on 02 Oct 2009, Electric Hermit wrote:
282. oldnat
"English Law is used to a system where the Home Secretary routinely overturns recommendations for release - which has never happened in Scotland"
It has. In the last ten years, seven of thirty applications for compassionate release were refused.
Are you sure of that, Electric Hermit? I read that those were applications that did not get as far as the Justice Minister but were refused on medical grounds by the prison system. I wouldn't swear that was correct, but it is what I read.
And WHY are we back to talking about al-Megrahi anyway? Can anyone say BORED?
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285. Electric Hermit
No. These seven applications were not recommended for release. Scots politicians have never overturned a recommendation to (or not to) release. That someone makes an application does not mean that they are in fact both terminally ill and no longer a risk to society - the critical factors.
In England, however, Jack Straw is happy to overturn a conviction abroad, simply on the basis of his personal belief in the prisoner's innocence, with no evidential basis.
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282. oldnat
"We are unlikely to have an enhanced risk of terrorist attack."
There was no such risk anyway. Abdul Baset Ali al-Megrahi was a Libyan intelligence service operative. He was no more a terrorist than a CIA agent is. Although that may not be the strongest argument.
The fact is that al-Megrahi was not linked to any terrorist group such as al-Qaeda. Indeed, that would hardly be feasible considering that Libya was the first nation to issue an arrest warrant for Osama bin Laden, at a time when the US was still channelling money and arms to him through Pakistan's directorate for Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI). It is doubtful if there was much sympathy for him among any of the "usual suspects".
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#284 Electric Hermit
I am sure you are correct.
I also agree with a previous poster, albeit, not his last few lines. Your posts at #264 and #265 were certainly informative for me also an economic layman to.
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282. oldnat
"While Scottish opinion is split as to whether al-Megrahi should have been released or not..."
Not as split as it was. I have talked to a number of people who disapproved of MacAskill's decision. In every single case their attitude was based on a false appreciation of the facts gleaned from the media. For example, that the decision was based on the advice of a single doctor. (A lie often embellished with the suggestion that this doctor was employed by the Libyan government.) Once they were informed of the truth, almost all changed their view.
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#283 oldnat
I See you have got the Firefox addon up and running. Welcome back home.
You are obviously correct. In some cases pollsters can take time publishing their results. You gave one example. I think it is not down to the pollster but the client. Some polls appear overnight as is demonstrated below.
YouGov 01/10/2009 (RE: the topic)
The Sun newspaper has supported Labour at the last three general elections. It has now announced that it will back David Cameron and the Conservatives at the next election. It says it has done this because Labour has 'lost its way' after 12 years in power. Do you agree or disagree that Labour has lost its way?
Con 40
Lab 26
Lib Dem 20
Other 15
YouGov 01/10/2009
Although this gives some details it does not show the full weighting figures.
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287. JRMacClure
"Are you sure of that, Electric Hermit? I read that those were applications that did not get as far as the Justice Minister but were refused on medical grounds by the prison system. I wouldn't swear that was correct, but it is what I read."
That is almost certainly true. The vetting process is extremely thorough. Which makes a mockery of the suggestion that there was insufficient grounds. By the time the application lands on the Justice Minister's desk the prisoner's qualification for release is already conclusive. The Justice Minister still has the power to refuse the application. But he would require a very powerful justification for going against established practice. There was no such justification in the case of al-Megrahi.
"And WHY are we back to talking about al-Megrahi anyway?"
The issue is still live. Lies are still being told.
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289. Electric Hermit
I wouldn't rely too much on the rationality of extremists! There were certainly reports that the Intelligence Services had warned of the likelihood of that!
Ooh! Could the Intelligence Services have invented those threats? :-) Doesn't alter my point that it was easier for MacAskill to follow precedent rather than defy it.
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291. Electric Hermit
We agree on that.
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288. oldnat
"These seven applications were not recommended for release."
You are correct, of course. I was not making a clear enough distinction between an application being refused and a recommendation being rejected. Which is what you alluded to.
I am duly chastened. And I apologise unreservedly.
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#283 oldnat
Sorry gave the wrong figures.
The Sun newspaper has supported Labour at the last three general elections. It has now announced that it will back David Cameron and the Conservatives at the next election. It says it has done this because Labour has 'lost its way' after 12 years in power. Do you agree or disagree that Labour has lost its way?
Agree 63
Disagree 27
Don't know 10
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290. Roll_On_2010
"Your posts at #264 and #265 were certainly informative for me also an economic layman to."
Thank you. But I think I should point out that it was not my intention to imply that I am any kind of authority on Keynes' theories. I have a basic understanding. Any errors in my analysis are entirely my own.
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276. Electric Hermit
I'm versatile.
Not a word used in behavioral studies.
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294. oldnat
"Doesn't alter my point that it was easier for MacAskill to follow precedent rather than defy it."
I don't know if "easier" is quite the term I would use. Nothing about this issue was in any sense "easy". The strain on MacAskill was quite apparent.
The right and lawful decision was always obvious. The prisoner fully qualified for compassionate release. The problem was the pressure to treat al-Megrahi as an exception to law and precedent. MacAskill did well to resist that pressure.
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292. Roll_On_2010
You give the Sun question - to which the UK responses, by voting intention, were actually
View, Con, Lab, LD
Agree, 92%, 14%, 64%
Disagree, 4%, 89%, 28%
Hardly earth-shattering! But you quote the UK voting intentions.
I'm not sure what point you are making.
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297. Roll_On_2010
Thanks. I understand now. Also thanks for the welcome home - but my body is still on US time!
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#287 JRMacClure
And WHY are we back to talking about al-Megrahi anyway? Can anyone say BORED?
Rollover from previous blog. EH had the non believers pinned against the wall =:)
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#302 oldnat
Anyway I am off to bed. I think this time of the morning we are on US time!
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PERVOREECE et al + stuffed ine!
glaswegian
one = een == een = augen
I hurled (past) tensed..>>
eeeh sqeeleedug
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jppr
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The Sun enacted this, timed this and wrote the headlines for only one reason.
To sell more copies of the Sun. They succeeded.
RM and Sun marketng department will dine out on this for months.
Sad sad sad.
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Fubar_Saunders 261
Pump-priming is usually used in a slump. The term is used by economists as the multiplier.
A Governemnt using pump-prime by its decisions to spend as well as raise taxes to fund expenditures. The Government spends this money it has raised to become a direct buyer of the economies goods and services and by this method it spurs demand for goods.
Meanwhile Government uses taxes to raise funds that will sustain spending.
It works by the government deciding on a project, building for instance this provides work for builders contractors construction etc.
The workers then have the income to spend or save on food clothing etc thus in turn this keeps shopkeeper and retailers in work. That is why it is known as the multiplier because the theory is it increases the money supply.
This works well in a slump, however, when you have a economy in debt the chances are the people who receive the money instead of spending will save it or pay debts in which case it has the opposite effect on the economy than needed.
The situation in Britain is that we cannot do this as the money from constant rolling over of deficits in the public sector has left us in too much debt. The Government debt incurred now and our taxes are being used at the moment to prop up the public sector in other words services that produce nothing and Government debt, therefore there is no gain. pump-prime relies on that gain.
Car scrapage is not pump-prime it is a fiscal stimulus it has not worked because all it has done has added to our massive Government debt because we do not produce enough of our own cars for it to be effective.
As to taxation direct taxation will increase to 50p in 2010 and high earners will lose some of their tax relief on pensions and their personal allowance plus national insurance has been increased and is going to increase further even on low income. With stealth taxation Britain is a very high taxation Country for both personal and business. This will in turn hold back any recovery.
As much as everyone hates banks they cannot with the best will in the world prop up toxic debt, increase their capital and lend at low rates. They are not attracting savers because of low interest rates this in turn impedes their ability to increase their capital, something the Government has demanded they do. If they lend in vast amounts at the moment you will see another bank crash. Besides which a lot of the lending through banks owned by Government is going into the Government to prop up debt.
None of the economic or fiscal tools are being used in Britain Keynes or otherwise. In Britain we have a closed cycle where money earned by taxes, the money printed and a great deal of money lent by the banks are going straight into the treasury to prop up our massive Government debt. The wider economy, the private sector, the wealth producers, if you like has been left to fend for itself. Keynes would never have seen this as anything but a disaster waiting to happen.
Keynes though a guideline these days is seen by economists as out of date because economies are far too Global and complex. People who are of left wing policies of course still see him as a hero.
The Conservatives should hope they do not win the next election because all the really bad decisions have been left to them. It is to be hoped the public will understand.
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279#
Sorry if I went off on one yesterday Saga, bad day. Moving significantly closer to emigration thanks to the wife being pursued by the Revenue for something she didn't owe them... got me wound up a bit.
Y'see as I keep on saying, politics is an emotive subject, it touches real peoples lives every day and sometimes those events can get you a bit wound up. Hence some of the contributors on here, myself included end up letting off quite a bit of steam, or as I've referred to before, bulls in search of red rags... and there are times mate, when you seem to own a china shop that also does the occasional line - hell, no more of a department store concession - in red rags.
I dont think its about tailoring stuff not to offend other bloggers or wind them up - we should all speak our minds, but realise that its a vast world of differing opinions and that there is going to be a lot of differences and there is sometimes going to be vehement disagreement on a particular subject and we may have to be prepared to say why we think what we do. Sometimes, as I did with E-H and Susans exchange about Keynes, I learn something I didnt know before. Some of us have quite strong convictions and will defend them strongly because we believe in them. Robust banter is one thing, smearing and disinformation is something else entirely. And as a result because of the political climate we're in it can get a bit heated. Mind you, if you think NR's gets heated, you ought to try Guido's...
Peston's blog I read quite often, but as financial stuff isnt my forte, I dont contribute to it. Any posting on there under my nom de plume is definately going to be a spoof and not from me.
Again, apologies for the virtual chest-poking yesterday. But you dont 'arf wind me up sometimes.... :o)
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TheBlameGame 262
Blame good morning was out with xTunbridge last night could no answer.
This poll does not surprise me at all, it appears a majority of the people in Scotland also agree that Megrahi was released for oil deals. Everyone I know does.
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xTunbridge 263
If you do not stop driving me so fast to the pub you will be into car scrappage. Good night though, you still owe me one.
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various#
I can understand Starkey not being everyones cup of darjeeling... Just IMHO, sometimes when things get as politically convoluted as they are doing now, it can (to the likes of me anyway) be refreshing to hear someone speak how they feel. Many of QT's contributors dont do that, everything is very carefully phrased MP speak, detatched from the electorate who maybe dont get the nuances used. He just came across as direct, to the point and that was that.
I understand it doesnt work for everyone, but it worked for me. Just in the same way as the light and dark differences earlier on in the week with Paxo's interviews at Conference. Milliband's was car-crash TV; Mandy on the other hand, two nights later was significantly more accomplished and polished. Didnt necessarily agree with what he said, but he was firm, confident and had I been "on message', I'd have bought it, no question. Very, very cleverly done.
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there are some things ... many things, actually ... which I can't know, for a fact, to be true but I believe to be true - the extent to which I then believe in the truth of these things (that I believe, but don't know, to be true) depends mainly on the following:
(1) the strength of the case supporting it in the form of tangible evidence and/or logical deduction
(2) the extent to which I want it to be true ... i.e. how important it is to me
let's take an example ... the release of al Megrahi
so in that case the ... no wait a minute, let's not do that one, perhaps better to keep it closer to home
the Tories then
Sun or no Sun, I believe (but don't know for an absolute fact) that a landslide win for the Cs would have a negative impact on both the material wealth and the happiness quotient of most people in this country - I believe that, not 90 pc or 95 pc or 99 pc, but FOR SURE
why do I 100 pc believe it?
just follow the template
(1) the case is overwhelming - hence evidence/deduction test PASSED with flying colours
and (now the other test)
(2) I badly want it (need it) to be true - it's very important to me - if it turned out NOT to be true ... if Cameron and his Cs were to get in and then govern in the best interests of ordinary people ... then I'd be shaken to the core - I'd be a mess
PASSED as well
so there you go
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309. Susan-Croft
"Car scrapage is not pump-prime it is a fiscal stimulus..."
This is just nonsense. Pump-priming is just another name for a particular for of fiscal stimulus.
"...it has not worked because all it has done has added to our massive Government debt because we do not produce enough of our own cars for it to be effective."
It has worked. Such schemes have been credited with playing a significant role in pulling France and Germany out of recession. The benefit in the UK has been considerably less principally because it impacted retailing rather than manufacturing so there was little knock-on effect through the rest of the economy. It has been a success. But only a very limited success. Which is a lot more than can be said for the bank bail-outs.
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309. Susan-Croft
"The wider economy, the private sector, the wealth producers, if you like has been left to fend for itself."
Which is precisely what they are constantly saying they want.
And "wealth creation" is just another capitalist myth. Wealth is not created. It is merely moved around.
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309. Susan-Croft
"Car scrapage is not pump-prime it is a fiscal stimulus it has not worked..."
On checking, I find that the car scrappage scheme has worked far better than I had supposed. And not just in terms of retailing either. Seems it massively slowed the decline in both sales and domestic manufacturing. (source) Not a huge success in terms of the wider economy, certainly. But it it's just plain daft, if not dishonest, to say that it "has not worked".
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313. Fubar_Saunders
Agree, DS added some colour to an otherwise mainly bland line-up, totally OTT, does get a bit tiresome after a while though.
I was amazed at Bradshaw's lack of knowledge on Polanski...Minister of Culture?!
Also the usual hypocrisy over the medication issue, no mention of the smears and innuendos of Cameron and Osborne on the recreational side which are still being used, albeit less overtly.
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316. Electric Hermit
And "wealth creation" is just another capitalist myth. Wealth is not created. It is merely moved around.
=
Please explain to an economic dunderhead like myself how economies can grow without creating more wealth? Thanks.
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Have to acknowledge posts from Fubar-Saunders, Susan-Croft and Electric Hermit.
The fact that I've read Keynes (and a few other economists) doesn't make me close to being an economist. Guess we all read stuff out of interest and to see whether it impacts on areas of jobs we do or the way we think.
I find it hard to imagine how, in what Brown and the economists claim was a benign UK and Global economy, UK people and business were force fed credit and almost abandoned savings - and even the govenment was borrowing to spend on at best doubtful "investments". I'll never understand that. Or which economist would have recommended it!
It annoys me that the poorest people in the UK have to scabble about through ever-incresing masses of red tape to reclaim money that should never have been removed via the tax system in the first place. I don't like the creation of dependency on apparatchiks (themselves probably struggling to keep up with the latest rule changes) to extract "top-up payments".
Just offends a social conscience.
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Good morning each & Andrew.
Wealth 'creation'.
Intellegent disdain?
No mre Empire, no more slavery (true for this arguement only).
The only option, the one employed recently, is to make more poor people. More correctly "Make more people poor."
Our deepest poverty is one of choice.
Again I am faced with the image of a battered wife.
The violent boy-friend?
Or the morose and demeening ex?
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318#
Exactly. A friend of mine said something similar about a year ago and it got me thinking. What he basically said was that because all the main political parties were moving towards where they figured the key votes were (ie the centre) rather than drawing people towards their political philosophy through the strength of their argument was that you'd basically got the red tories, the blue tories and the yellow tories; politics needed some kind of polarisation, not just variations but significant differences of philosophy so that the electorate had true choices rather than just shades of blue or grey. Hence, those who arent necessarily at the centre; you might not agree with what they say, but at least they seem to say it with conviction and you can then decide. The only prominent Labour one I can think of like that is Harriet. Leaning definately more to the left and she has her own agenda, but at least you know what she stands for. You dont have to like it, but you're in no doubt, I'll say that for her (dont get too excited Saga)... I suppose her tory opposite number would have been Portillo, but, I'm not sure she has an equivalent on the current tory benches... Cam appears to be trying to make the picture far more... anodyne and unthreatening. Sometimes good when you've a battered reputation to repair, but not if you're looking to lead and inspire.
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is this the ISM helpline,
gestural profanity lamentable - I & We, Rosie of Wales, and me are going to Bath and require the services of an escort (driver in worst case scenario), should my back lumber/sacral preclude me from driving.
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319. TheBlameGame
"
Please explain to an economic dunderhead like myself how economies can grow without creating more wealth? Thanks."
That's a big subject. Too big for me to handle here and now. It is better not to think in terms of "growth" and think instead in terms of transformation. Don't think of "wealth" as possession so much as "control". And, most importantly, stop thinking about "money" and consider instead "resources".
Wealth is control of the processes which transform resources.
What is usually referred to as "growth" is actually no more than a shuffling of this control so that more of it ends up in one place rather than another. No new resources are created. Given that ultimately all resources are matter/energy, it is impossible for any new resources to be created. New ways are found to transform resources. But that is just part of the shuffling process.
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Hat tip to Google for reminding us that today is Mohandas Gandhi's birthday. A great man.
Brown, Cameron, Clegg... can't see any of them fasting for their beliefs!
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314#
But mate, thats not evidence, thats a gut feeling.
Sometimes your gut is right, but not always.... you might be loafing around outside a jewellers shop and a copper may come up and cosh you over the head because he thinks you're casing the joint ready to rob it - he may have a really strong gut feeling that you're upto no good and he may really want it to be true as well, but without evidence, he's stuffed and you would be very rightly offended with a big lump on your head and a dim view of the constabulary.
You see what I'm getting at?
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#320
what's your job, I mean what do you do, how do you contribute to society? Answer, oh I'm an economist. Oh you get paid for being an economist do you? Oh yes, loads of money. But what exactly do you do? Oh, read a lot, study statistics, earn loads of money teaching people about economics. Oh you mean a bit like philosophy the? Oh no, not a bit like philosophy. Oh, how about your other job? Oh, I mix my economivcs with politics. Oh so you study politics? Yes, and what does that involve? Oh a lot of reading and writing. Yes but but what do you do? Well I might do some research, or I might tell other people to work harder, to understand that there is global warming, or even a global economic crisis. Oh so that's what politics is? Yes. So politicians do not do anything then? Oh yes we do, I might ask for somebody to have an inquiry, or set up an inquiry, or go overseas to see how others do things, or better still I might go back to my constituency to tell people how bad things are but if they vote for me then things will get better, or they won't get worse. Well thank you, so economists, philosophers and students of politics actually do nothing!
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317#
Seems you're both coming at the same thing from opposite ends; E-H with a good bit of the theory and Susan with what has actually happened in UK. The stats bear it out, the scrappage/cash for clunkers scheme has been successful, particularly in Germany and in the US.
In the UK, it has helped a bit, but not as much as we would maybe like to believe because of the way it has been implemented with only 1000 of the 2000 reduction being provided centrally, if my understanding is correct. Hence cynical car dealers have been able to exploit this poor implementation of the idea and the money that has benefitted the manufacturers in Germany and the US has instead flowed out of the country to the foreign car makers and into the dealers pockets. Bearing in mind although it may have helped keep UK workers in employment, not just in car manufacturing, but also the other sub-contractors and suppliers, the problem is that there are no real UK owned volume car producers left any more. Hence, the circle isnt being squared as you're not getting the corporation tax input from the manufacturer who is selling the vehicles. I think I understand that correctly?
Susan, your analogy of the government being a direct customer is also a correct one, I think. The latter part of that post where you outline what has actually happened, re the size of the debt, I also gravitate towards as well.
I think you're both closer to the truth than you realise, just with slightly different perspectives.
There was nothing wrong with the idea, just a typical NL half-assed implementation.
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320#
No disagreement from me, FOM.
324#
Interesting perspective... it works though. I can see what you're getting at.
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324. Electric Hermit
Yep, understand wealth doesn't necessarily equate to money in this instance... that's the nub isn't it, how do you define wealth?
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winging with Legrand
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fairlyopenmind 320
I guess the only handle you can get on the economy in Britain is we cannot do anything in the way of fiscal or economic tool in our armoury because we are in too much debt, which is being added to everyday. Printing money was the last fiscal tool available and has been used badly to prop up Government debt. Like I say, money is printed and then goes into the treasury to prop up the debt never to the wider economy that needs it. For instance we printed 175 billion this year that just happens to be the exact amount Government needs to service its debt. The taxes collected which are less because of the shrinking private sector are not enough to service our debt or the public sector, which is still growing believe it or not.
Increasing tax on the high earners will not even touch meeting the needs of Government debt. A drop in the ocean, the only result will be that skilled people and business will leave the Country for low taxation Countries increasing the burden for the few private sector workers who are left.
You can tinker as with the car scrappage but it does nothing to improve the economy because we do not produce cars in this Country as we used to do. In this case there will be a period when people will buy cars, which is probably what they would have done anyway over a period of time, it just moves it up. This gives a boost for a short time and then no one buys as the period of scrappage runs out. Very poor use of money.
Economists at the last election were saying the capital to lending was too low in banks and that there was a danger of a credit bubble. This was part of the Conservatives manifesto to increase banks capital. Brown insisted that the banks were very healthy and could raise captial on the markets there would be no more 'boom and bust' this was wrong. There came a time when the banks could no longer raise the captial thus Northern Rock occurred.
Wealth has to be created to cut our debt, this can only be done by encouraging business and cutting peoples taxes so they can spend and save. In a Global market we must compete, at the moment we are unable to do either. People may dislike those who create money by business and the like however they are the only ones who can save us now. Otherwise it is a continuous spiral down as workers become unemployed and business is lost.
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Still searching for green shoots? Found abrgreenish conduit instead. Kind of you to ask neelee
love you loads
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My darling non-angst ridden Editor
empiricus intacto and all at sea - told/ asked politely to dliver mine/debr's poster to Rosie - he will not hear my command!
its so bloody frustrating
step up Kennie
I can see your twinckletoess - was it at the Cowdray Hall>.
love to your pumps... xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Janie
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alles in ordnung in EH15? or , check out Alchemy Arts in Portobello high st> this girlie's in real trouble.........................
Kate MacKay=girlie
ta,
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alles in ordnung hier aussi mon brave angello-arcadian muse - i.e. the Stott variety solamenente messaggio
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bristhon
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(TAG) 327
I understand why you would feel like that about economists, however it is like everything else with this Government those economists who were crying credit bubble were alienated from the Government. Brown gave his message 'no more boom and bust' they were not allowed a voice. Same as the media they thought Brown was the greatest Chancellor of all times and no voice was ever raised to contradict this, however they were there. The Conservatives at the last General Election were the only ones listening and nobody wanted to hear because they wanted to keep spending believing Browns message 'no more boom or bust'.
I am afraid the same is happening now we are at the mercy of the media and Government to tell us about the crisis of debt in this Country and the truth is just not being told, except by the small voice of G. Osborne.
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Susan Croft.
The BBC isn't here to close down a debate because one of its less than perspicacious correspondents doesn't understand it.
Neil the BBC Blogger and Neil the Spectator Editor are one and the same. What he writes, allows to be published in one medium speaks volumes about the attitudes he demonstrates here.
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uxoricidally pathalogically jealous! he wants me to fail ergo: I show him up.
For jimy christie's sake, mon!
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announcement Debra & Robert Anderson Mary Magdalen chapel, Bath 7.30pm gmt - tickets on door or call the curatorial very Rev.d
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................brndek peepimg over the steinway lid again///
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rankin fumes = terry nicol's sage green weeds - cuorouroy - coeur du roi. corderrroy.. ductionary bitte..
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are you my new pain in the proverbial - where Tadeusz left off eith hte Faure pigeons? and the Janet Soedring bloody chest of frence bird endeared me eternally - angst she casued me - she did not acknowldege receipt of my resignation from The Addison Singers - how dare she? I wrote her a lovely letter - but the problem was in essence 'she did not confront MY stage fright']- Asplay Road SW18-goldsmiths..>>
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divorced thrive oot the door marching orders,
come roon kenny deer and twinkle on mein ivoiresz---------
can't stop giggling scenario
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not kindly
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324. Electric Hermit
Reread your post again and although I can see what you're getting at, to my limited understanding of economics your definitions of growth/transformation and money/resources is restricting. Perhaps when you have time and there isn't another indulgent one way conversation flooding this blog...you could expand?
I'm thinking of a diversity of 'wealth creators'(?) like for e.g. James Dyson, Richard Branson, and god forbid, a top investment banker.
Taxes are generated by these people in one form or another, directly and/or indirectly (job creation), which then are used (in theory) to improve and expand services and other resources which I think you were referring to as wealth. Am I barking up the wrong tree or just barking?
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Moderators, where is all this scotsvernacular spam coming from?
Cant it be filtered out?
Can we borrow the really keen moderator from Nick's blog as he's not doing anything at the moment?
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#340, Susan-Croft wrote:
"(TAG) 327
I understand why you would feel like that about economists, however it is like everything else with this Government those economists who were crying credit bubble were alienated from the Government. Brown gave his message 'no more boom and bust' they were not allowed a voice...... and nobody wanted to hear because they wanted to keep spending believing Browns message 'no more boom or bust'....
I am afraid the same is happening now we are at the mercy of the media and Government to tell us about the crisis of debt in this Country and the truth is just not being told, except by the small voice of G. Osborne."
I feel that there is a more general understanding that the fancy ideas, trumpeted initiatives and policies don't mean a thing without meaningful and worthwhile delivery.
I'm pleased to see that (especially) people and businesses are paying down debt at a very rapid rate. Of course banks are throttling many SMEs credit, which isn't helping the broad spectrum of commercial activity. And paying down mortgage or credit cards doesn't help the velocity of money around the consumer market.
I guess people are clearing the decks as best they can before the onslaught of the "Bust" phase that Brown decided had disappeared. Though, to be fair, I believe he said "No more TORY boom and bust!"...
I'd have preferred no more anybody's B & B... (Except maybe Mrs. McFadden's rather nice little place in Wiltshire.)
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341#
He's not the editor, he's the chairman. If you dont like the editorial direction of the magazine, complain to Fraser Nelson.
If you're in that much of a lather about the BBC retaining his services, complain to the BBC Trust.
As you rightly point out, "the BBC isn't here to close down a debate because one of its less than perspicacious correspondents doesn't understand it."
So, what are you hoping to achieve by posting your opprobrium on here? When there is already a mechanism for you to make your point directly to the Organ grinder rather than a collection of watching monkeys?
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I'm only an occasional visitor to this site. Have read a bit, but only posted recently.
Is anybody checking scotsvernacular gets the regular doses of medication?
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RE: [BRYCE FINDLAY]
ANNOUNCEMENT:
CHRIS CLARK GLASGOW JOINS THE JAZZ CARTNEY 3 (+nATALIE: BACCKING VOCALSIT]
WELCOME TO YOU THIS TIME - YOU SEE, CIAN KEEP MY PROMISES
Hope you're on that sialing slugget on the Froth.... chilling would be an understatement..........
Love the demeanour - have loved and longed for you since Desborough Suite gig thing - no DVD forthocming - a con, to say the least - tapken failed in his duty to me and you, and all the others sopraks of the firmament................
Chris Clark, How I Wish You'd Ask Me Now. CD released 2009 bbc airing]/ED]
-----
and another thing - I can't heear your sweet sibilant tones with prominence - it depressed me on my FAILURE bailiure at McTears...
TILL SOOON XXXX THANKS FOR THE LIFT - LOVED THE MITCHELL EXHIB - howsons sparky Burns in glorious technicolor was the highlight - OVERT}}]]]/
---------------
FINIS
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353#
He did actually say no more boom and bust. He also said Tory boom and bust, but conveniently forgot that he said the first quote first.
There is a web page somewhere that lists out all the times he said it, dates, places, speeches, the whole shebang. I'll see if I can find it.
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I will not leave until of my own choosing - I am sure your lovely unempowered moderator will enjoy his time off - give hime a beer break at least.........
ISM =-= MU
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Our boys and girls are being killed in Iraq/Afghanistan because they don't have the proper equipment,weapons and vehicles etc and a leading British arms manufacturer has been recently indicted for major fraud and bribery around the world.I have purposely not named this contractor because the MODS get V twitchy and I can't really understand why because this particular contractor deeds have been well documented and reported.
This same contractor was involved in a MAJOR fraud with a certain Middle Eastern Country which Tony Blair stopped a SFO investigation because of National Security. National Security my Donkey??!!
We have no need to worry though because Electric Hermit insists there is only ONE (1) rule of Law in the UK, so we can rest easy in our beds knowing this Government will ENSURE the course of justice is followed.
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358#
Thats what most of us like to think on Nicks blog, but someone usually has a different idea.
Havent you got some traffic to play with somewhere? Like the M8?
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359#
Of course theres only one rule of law, E-M!
And, like taxation.... it only applies to the little people.
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#351 BG
The scientific analogy is the world is in a state of constant entropy - so one resource is being used to generate another but the total resource remains constant
Interesting concept science versus economics - one Susan loves to debate.
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I haven't got a clue what Scotvernacular is talking about most of the time. Am I missing something??!!
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363. meninwhitecoats
Thanks for that miwc..not sure if I can buy the total resource remaining constant bit.
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You couldn't really send this video up. Sun readers recognise that Cameron has the dynamism, energy and Ideas. Was that Gus Hedges from drop the dead donkey?
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Good Afternoon Andrew,
with Brown still not confirming whether or not he will enter into a televised debate may I suggest that i really look forward to PMQs when Brown will be asked a question which he will then say that is not the question which you should be asking and I will give an answer to the question which i would want you to ask.
The whole system is breaking down. What I want to see is every time a body is brought back from Afghanistan that the cortege actually goes past both the Houses of parliament and Buckingham Palace. Now they gave Diana a sort of State Funeral, should there not be State funerals for all of our soldiers, who die defending their Queen and country. It is the least that should be done.
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359.EXXONMOBIL2
EXXON you must be referring to Buy And Exterminate?
It's on their news page FCS. Must be the way you phrased it.
The IPCC are standing by their original de Menezes decision. I wonder how the Tomlinson inquiry is doing? Should know in a couple of years...
And where is young Robinson? Too many sherbets at the conference or another writer's block?
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#360, scotsvernacular wrote:
self-medicking thank 355. and how are you on The Great West Road? or of same ilk?
thanks, concern appreciated]]
scotsv,
Never quite understood the "abstract" school of posters. It's a bit like some areas of art. I look at it and feel a sense of sympathy and wonder why it goes over my head. Maybe, deep down, it's understandable. If you can be bothered to explore.
Odd, really. I tend towards the verbal flatulence school of poster (while privately writing haikus, which are much more fun and make you concentrate and think more! I sometimes wish that government ministers were obliged to describe initiatives in no more than 17 syllables.).
I self-medicate too. Human backs (vertebral columns) are one of nature's failures. A bit like teeth. Achilles tendons pop. Minds are still amazing and misunderstood. Especially by politicians, it seems. Theirs. Yours. Mine.
Just can't work out how some of your stuff passes the Douglas Adams/ Spike Milligan/Monty Python/alternative comedy tests - reality on the edge of interpretation. OK it's post-everything.
Bad economic space to live in. Probably worse for my children - which I really hate.
But individual stuff can be bad in the best of times. Or good in the worst.
Take care.
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News International getting loads of free publicity from the Beeb in the form of Andrew Neil and Nick Robinson This irrelevant switch of The Sun to the tories and SKY tv's call for a presidential Debate. Also the most powerful clown in the country got a puncture on his bike in Walford yesterday. Just before The Conservative party conference. Its available on iplayer or there's the Sunday omnibus. Boris likes Omnibuses.
Scots vernacular is possibly writing in anagrams.
but here's a little surreal comment of my own.
Yes its been about a year now. Did you think I hadn't noticed?
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#363, meninwhitecoats wrote:
"#351 BG
The scientific analogy is the world is in a state of constant entropy - so one resource is being used to generate another but the total resource remains constant
Interesting concept science versus economics - one Susan loves to debate."
I'm sure Susan will come back in.
The odd thing is that many, many years ago, it was presented to me that biology, chemistry, physics, mathematics and economics were effectively "sciences".
Didn't see it then, nor now. Economics is purely interpretative. Each of the others demand speculation - which involves interpretations of available evidence - but can, at some point be subjected to evidential examination.
Economics is akin to philosophy, with bits of mathematical projection and totally unproven predictability. And, worse, subjected to the oddity of human activities which can be so unpredictable that no branch of real science has worked out the slightest clue about how or why it happens.
I'm old enough to remember 300+ economists telling Maggie T that her approach would be a disaster, just before the UK economy had an upturn.
Maybe that's why I tend to doubt even the global warming scientists (when many who contributed to the IPCC didn't even agree with the political, UN reports). I certainly don't believe a bunch of politicians with a real absence of scientific training who assure me that a windmill is the answer to our prayers. (They tried that 1,000 years ago...)
"Money" is a useful concept. Has absolutely nothing to do with natural resources, although it can be reflective of what nature could actually offer if handled properly. The value of exchange used to be fairly physical at some time. Then it got hard to carry around.
Quantative easing proves you can invent - at least pretend you have invented - money. Bit hard to invent a new species, or re-establish forests without something biological, chemical or physical taking place.
People with no money do that all the time. Others, also without money, take what's there and flog it.
Our "ruling class" people seem to believe they can play around with no real impact in the real world. How many trees has Gordo actually planted himself? How many potatoes dug up? How many weeds pulled?
Too many people living in an unreal bubble. Too sad.
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367. T A Griffin (TAG)
What I want to see is every time a body is brought back from Afghanistan that the cortege actually goes past both the Houses of parliament and Buckingham Palace.
=
I'd like to see a memorial for both Iraq and Afghanistan, based on the iconic image of the US marines raising the Stars & Stripes at Iwo Jima/Mt. Suribachi.
Replace the Marines with Blair, Brown, Straw and Campbell and the flag with a barrel of oil being raised aloft. A relief of Bush's face will grace the oil barrel. The base could have a frieze of MPs in the HoC around it (minus some LibDems) with a suitable inscription.
369. fairlyopenmind
I'm trying to fathom the complex relationship between sausagedog, vernacular and Meelie Pooden. All one and the same?
Need to take Enigma out of mothballs.
More quality less quantity please.
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Various
A working definition of wealth is the sum total of monetary and non monetary goods and services at any given time.It includes items with a market value like bread, and uncosted services like housework with an `opportunity cost`, i.e.the value of the service if offered commercially.
A more dynamic way of thinking about wealth is in relation to social stratification:-that is the distribution of class and status advantages in a society.
These take the form of `life chances` that is an individuals access to education,housing,occupation,health,leisure etc. according to their class or status position.People inherit their life chances through the family, but their opportunities can change through upward or downward social mobility.
Class is determined by the market,that is the reward for the resource offered, whether it is skill,capital,or land.
Status is closely linked with class but not identical.Ethnicity or religion for instance produces an additional dimension of inequality.
To return to wealth creation,you can either accumulate more goods and services, or distribute them more equally.
Political power has the distribution of class and status advantages as a major concern.Who gets what,how much and when.
Political parties exist `In a house of power` and broadly represent different class and status group.
This is a model with the nuances and subtleties left out.
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115. At 11:32pm on 30 Sep 2009, sagamix wrote:
renton @ 101
if the Sun is so unimportant, why is everyone from brown to union leaders and every other labour minister and activist yelping it doesn't matter?
yes good point - exactly like the fact that the Tory leadership are all vacuous posh boys from Eton - sooo much noise how it "doesn't matter" isn't there? ... from Tories
===
To paraphrase Britney; "Oops you did it again".
What happened to your promise to knock it on the head with the mindless insults? Or was that a NewLabour promise, i.e. not meant to be kept, just a soundbite?
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169. At 12:32pm on 01 Oct 2009, sagamix wrote:
Oops you did it again! Again!
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371. fairlyopenmind
373. bryhers
So basically this is heading back into the capitalism/freemarket wealth creation vs socialism redistribution argument....?
On a related topic I overhead on the Vine Show(?) BBC2 - should performers like Elton John pay more tax as he's enjoying the good life thanks to many far less fortunate than himself buying his music. I say no-one held a gun to their heads and if they're buying his new stuff or Candle in the Wind they shouldn't be subsidised for their bad taste. :-)
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183. At 2:09pm on 01 Oct 2009, braveSouter wrote:
Now that The Sun has decided to promote Tory leaders Cameron and Osborne,is it possible that they will be replacing their normal Page 3 coverage with a photograph of Dave and George in their Bullingdon Club uniforms?
===
No, but there is a cracking one of Ed Balls in his Nazi uniform, from his sexist Steamer days at Oxford. Any good to you?
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203. At 3:18pm on 01 Oct 2009, braveSouter wrote:
No199 Fubar,
Is that the case where the Tory activist,and council candidate was involved in a conspiracy with opposition front bencher dynamic Damien to break The Official Secrets Act? Do you think they both should have been prosecuted? Was he dumped by the Tories when he no longer served their needs?
===
Do you think Gordon Brown should have been prosecuted for handling leaked Treasury papers when he was Shadow Chancellor in the 1990s?
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10. At 3:53pm on 01 Oct 2009, sagamix
Can I have a go?
"I have a real problem with privately educated people influencing my life. Unless they are Labour of course, then it's OK."
Hope you publish it.
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#371 FOM
I tend to agree with you.
Last time I was embroiled in this discussion I took a fairly dogmatic view that science was pure and economics was more speculative. I would concede that some areas of science are actually akin to economics in that if you give two people the same set of facts they may come up with two entirely different answers - climate change being the prime example.
Measurement of wealth is an interesting challenge, it should surely encompass not just material things but general well being.
Money is becoming less tangible as we rely on technology for our transactions - it is always easier to press the buy button online than it is to hand over real money.
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217. At 4:18pm on 01 Oct 2009, sagamix wrote:
blame @ 202
you're just upset that you're going to have to give up the Sun and NOTW on principle
okay I confess, I do get the Sun now and again - got it today, actually, and guess what? ... their page 3 girl (usual bimbo shot) was billed as being "Harriet" from "Peckham" - now THAT's taking the poo - got me trembling with rage - god
===
The Sun goes up in my estimation with that one. Excellent stuff, must get a copy for posterity.
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fairlyopenminded 371 meninwhitecoats 363
No not getting into that one, no never again.
I will say this, economics is a recognised science and is used everyday in some form, without this knowledge as in science we would be stuffed. I am not referring to idiots like Brown who think they know economics when they do not.
I believe you must have more strings to you bow, for instance, an in depth knowledge of banking both commercial and investment. With these extra qualifications you can go anywhere to work and will always be in demand.
Hey, and coats for that little big of mischief you owe me another drink.
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yellowbelly
Hey, how are you, I have missed you, bring it on, add a little bit of spice to the debate.
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#243 Fubar
I'm guessing that Belgium doesn't tax you for having a phone or owning a horse either, which is what Labour intends doing here.
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352. At 12:29pm on 02 Oct 2009, Fubar_Saunders
355. At 12:35pm on 02 Oct 2009, fairlyopenmind
I'm half expecting the complete works of Shakespeare to appear in one of those ramblings! It's only a matter of time.
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If the above video and all this News International business reminds anyone else of Gus Hedges from drop the dead donkey then you might like to know that Drop the dead donkey is available on channel4.com without having prop up that evil media tyrant with a SKY subscription.
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coats and fairly
My 382
Pardon my mistakes I was doing two things at once, I tend to bang these posts out at top speed.
However coats you still owe me that drink.
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#382
Not taking the bait this time then and you ignored my West Lothian Question dangler on the previous blog - I was sure that would get a response.
Must owe you at least you a double for that .
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yellowbelly1959 385
You are a bit late with that one, hes done Shakespeare already.
Now personally I think you are being a bit harsh, he has something, not sure what it is but something.
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#383 Susan-Croft
Hello Susan. The problem is that these days I'm working from 7.00 a.m. to 5.00 p.m. By the time I get home and read through the comments on Nick's blog and try to contribute, the pesky thing has been closed down.
I have just latched on to his hidden blog though, bit like a hidden level in a computer game. And of course, to his credit, Andrew's blog is always open, and has a lot more relaxed attitude to moderation, much more grown up.
There doesn't seem to be much need to contribute as Labour are doing a good enough job of shooting themselves in the foot time and time again.
Take Brown's speech to the party faithful this week in which he promised to give patients the right to see their GP at weekends and in the evenings, exactly like we used to have before Labour "cleverly" negotiated new GP contracts.
He also vowed to give local councils the right to take away 24 hour licences for drinking as his discredited policy is "not working in some areas". Yeah, right. Like those areas where there are people with money, and pubs and nightclubs.
And he announced that he would drop the compulsory use of ID cards, yet another U turn, the man must be dizzy from all this spinning and U turns!
But his masterpiece must surely be to tax people for owning a horse. All to fund yet another quango!
You couldn't make it up.
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#373, bryhers wrote:
"Various
A working definition of wealth is the sum total of monetary and non monetary goods and services at any given time.It includes items with a market value like bread, and uncosted services like housework with an `opportunity cost`, i.e.the value of the service if offered commercially."
What on earth does that mean? When I brought up three children on my own, the "service" offered to them had no "equivalent" value. Having done a job for money, it was about looking after. In other words, the stuff you do for people I created and wanted to help.
It's just rediculous to equate what people do in a domestic environment with the potential costs if you bought them in. That's the nonsense we have today. "People" should go back to work as productive units. So some State funded - tax-payers' money - is used to try and install people who could do a little bit of what parents do, but without that "love" bit that holds families together.
"A more dynamic way of thinking about wealth is in relation to social stratification:-that is the distribution of class and status advantages in a society.
Class is determined by the market,that is the reward for the resource offered, whether it is skill,capital,or land.
Status is closely linked with class but not identical.Ethnicity or religion for instance produces an additional dimension of inequality.
To return to wealth creation,you can either accumulate more goods and services, or distribute them more equally."
bryhers... What?
Take all the wealth implied or measurable within the UK. Distribute it equally. Wait 2 - 5 years.
What will have happened to the wealth given to people with no interest in bothering to work at it?
Migrated towards those (of whatever "class") who couldn't be bothered to themselves about a bit. So those who had - but didn't think - own 36inch plasma TVs, big cars, takeaway meals and an expectation of a bit more.
Those who bothered to do something would probably make or sell the TVs, cars and takeaways.
Where would the equilibrium swing?
Class within European countries has rediculous historical connotations. It's not just a UK phenomenon. Scratch the surface of French society and you find the same thing - despite the Terrors of the Revolution. Plenty of "historical class" memories. For goodness sake, Giscard d'Estang architect of the European Constititution (renamed Lisbon Treaty) only added the "d" bit of his name after he married someone from an historical line from his wife!
But that cultural slob believes that his "class" should run Europe.
Some of the "classiest" people I ever met came from financially and socially "humble" backgrounds. Some of the most despicable people I saw and occasionally met came from a so called "classy" background. Princess Di's brother, for example.
Nothing stops people getting together and buying their failing company. Except ambition - or the lack of education that has become rampant under the Blair/Brown continuum.
For goodness sake, the Phoenix 4 "bought" MGRover for a tenner. The staff could have paid that - and with a bit of ambition, have engaged hired guns to manage the business on reasonable terms, for 5 years. That's all company directors, of companies they didn't create, really are. Just hired guns. The fact they posture about as if the own a business is what I really, really dislike. Many of them don't even bother to buy into the companies they manage in a way that could jeopardise their existing wealth.
I hate people struggling on minimal income. But, if a tax-payers' redistributive input is invested in the right type of trainers, the social feel good factor sort of wears off.
Spread all the money around. Maybe we'd find surprises. I'd guess that it would only be when somebody found a way to agglomerate enough to make a difference. I've lost all faith in a government being given the right to take and spend what they want.
Take a look at French medical health. Mixed national and private provision. Too expensive, probably - like here- but it's hard to find an area where it doesn't work quickly.
It's not how much you spend, it's what you do with it.
That - and to a large extent only that - is what I've disliked about the Brown management of the UK economy.
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376 Blame:
"So basically this is heading back into the capitalist free market wealth creation argument or the socialist redistribution"
You can choose to grow the cake or distribute it more evenly.We can agree on that.But these choices are not primary, but the consequence of a social process involving class,status and power in a society.
One difficulty in understanding the social structure which underlies political processes is that the market is not transparent but opaque in the way it distributes rewards and forms classes.The great Scottish economist called the market the `invisible hand.` You don`t see it, but it is an efficient indicator of economic value and reward.
But it is not an indicator of values, and this is where the moral debate between capitalism and socialism gets interesting.You may wish to sacrifice efficiency for equality and this is a legitimate choice to make.
Finally an element of redistribution may help economic efficiency because the less well off consume more of their income which is a stabilizer in relation to boom and slump.
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#385, yellowbelly1959 wrote:
"352. At 12:29pm on 02 Oct 2009, Fubar_Saunders
355. At 12:35pm on 02 Oct 2009, fairlyopenmind
I'm half expecting the complete works of Shakespeare to appear in one of those ramblings! It's only a matter of time."
Yellow,
I would never unleash so many thoughts, words and ideas on any blog.
Just no contest. Odd that the old bloke (whoever he was) got to the heart of so many things!
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Nice link to the sun at the top of the page. for anyone interested a straw pole thats easy to cheat(or page 3 is that allowed on the BBC?). Clear your cookies each time you vote and you vote as many times as you like. I think it might end up favour the Conservatives. probably a 99% majority.
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@ 374
sorry Yellow, I keep forgetting - disappointing since I don't NEED to resort to that stuff to make my points - I know that, btw, because everyone keeps telling me so
brought home to me, I must say, by the sheer quality of the debate raging on this board today - economics a science or not? - what is wealth? - what is money? - fabulous topics - and weighty too! - this is pretty much what it was like in the Senate in Ancient Rome, I would imagine - before Caligula got involved, anyway
am moved to offer a quick something - pls see below:
what is wealth?
stuff
what is money?
a means of exchanging stuff for other stuff, and a measuring unit for the value of stuff
can wealth be created?
yes - human energy applied to physical resource creates stuff
who are net wealth creators?
people who produce more stuff than they are paid for doing so - THE DEVELOPING WORLD
and who are net wealth consumers?
people who are paid more for producing stuff than the stuff they actually produce - THE DEVELOPED WORLD ... that's us
is economics a science?
nope - it has a dependency on the (less than 100 pc predictable) behaviour of human beings - it is, however, the Noblest of the Arts
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DHW @ 370
the most powerful clown in the country got a puncture on his bike in Walford yesterday
did he really? ... what a shame
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384#
Owning a horse?? Blinkin' flip, all I did was nip out to get a new mobile and theres something about a Horse Tax???
What the blinkin' 'eck is going on??
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392#
"One difficulty in understanding the social structure which underlies political processes is that the market is not transparent but opaque in the way it distributes rewards and forms classes."
OK... interesting way of looking at it... but would you mind quantifying that? I dont mean to be cheeky, but it has good political meter, its the kind of thing an MP would say, but what EXACTLY are you saying here?
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meninwhitecoats 388
It was noted, however it is all very well you sat there watching, as in bear baiting, but I had to deal with old angry head. No easy task I can tell you. I thought one subject was enough to be honest, otherwise all the blood vessels may have popped at once and I really do not want to do any blogger any harm.
EH as is now, does much better on co-ops, they get really nasty on that subject, yellow can tell you that.
Never mind a double, you owe me free drinks all night.
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394#
Doubt theres many Sun readers on here mate, apart from Saga... she got a copy the other day...
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#392, bryhers wrote:
376 Blame:
"So basically this is heading back into the capitalist free market wealth creation argument or the socialist redistribution"
You can choose to grow the cake or distribute it more evenly.We can agree on that.But these choices are not primary, but the consequence of a social process involving class,status and power in a society."
Bryhers,
If you don't grow the cake, there's nothing left to spread around.
Why I like the idea that basic life-sustaining products should be encouraged in what we call poor areas of the world. Really like the notion that people who made money elsewhere could spend it in an essentially humanistic cause. Oddly, I like the Bill and Linda Gates set up.
Love the idea that locals and others could work together to extract a life in difficult terrains.
And truly dislike - possibly disdain - people who run countries but stuff them up (like Mugabe - formerly communist, possibly the most educated leader of any nation on earth according to his degrees, but bleeding his country dry. That's not a racist comment. Just a regret that a lovely country is incapable today of doing what it once could. And wealth has migrated into political hands.).
Once upon a time, I knew people like me whose parents fought like mad to make their kids try to achieve something. To be frank, I'm pretty sure that Jamaican UK citizens knew a lot more about basic education than their UK born equivalents. Because they were taught to learn. And think.
There is so much potential talent in this country that it just makes me sick that governments have wasted so much, rather than investing in the future. I'd swap 100 government initiatives for a bit of investment in truly innovative technology. Oddly, the UK is still good at that.
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fubar @ 310
moving significantly closer to emigration thanks to being pursued by the Revenue
ooo a tax exile then! - well, thank heavens it's not ME driving you away - hey and that's glamorous, tax exile - that's like, say, having children with lots of different women!
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yellowbelly1959 390
I have much the same problem really, I am working so much that I cannot contribute or do the quality of posts I would like. However it is much more friendly on here, until EH, that is, that they forgive you for your errors.
I miss your posts because they give a bit of sparkle to the debates really and I think you are the only one that can give old Saga a run for his money. You know get him to answer the questions. Do you know what happened to carrots not seen him/her for a while either.
I would like to think Brown is finished, but I am not so sure. Browns interview with Adam Bolton was enough for me, you could see what a bully he is from that. As you say you could not make it up.
I did not know NR had a secret blog, thats news to me.
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401 open mind
Or you may want to do both,grow the cake and spread it more evenly.But you may spread it more evenly when the cake is static or shrinking as in wartime.The combinations are various,but human beings make the choices not the market.
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364 EXON2 RE Scotsvernacular
Nor me matey, I asssumed from his handle it was Scots patois.
He is undoubtedly a sandwich short of a picnic but unlike the rest of us I think he knows it.
Why people want him run out of town I do not know. Different drummer guys, different drummer.
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vernacular @ 347
where Tadeusz left off eith hte Faure pigeons and the Janet Soedring bloody chest of frence bird endeared me eternally
yes me too! - oil? - compassion?
compassionate oil?
oily compassion?
or keynes?
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#382, Susan-Croft wrote:
fairlyopenminded 371 meninwhitecoats 363
No not getting into that one, no never again.
I will say this, economics is a recognised science and is used everyday in some form, without this knowledge as in science we would be stuffed. I am not referring to idiots like Brown who think they know economics when they do not.
Susan,
Any "science" that doesn't have a checkable basis in fact and future projectability, doesn't seem to cut it for me.
My limited intellect, I realise.
Seem to find that theoreticians in bio, chem, physical - even mathematical - sciences have to depend on some "proof" to enhance their reputations.
Roughly a third of the global population exist in India, China, and close neighbouring states, and don't have a lot of disposable income today. Where do they figure in the economic models? How do you factor in the notion that China could switch from a global-serving to a local population demand? Because the other lot (us) are so financially destitute that it's probably better to do a little bit of self-help rather than wasting money elsewhere?
Economics has a scientific - mathematically biased - underpinning. I wouldn't disagree. But it keeps on failing. There are no bits in the models to suggest that people and nations are fundamentally unstable. Nothing to indicate the fragility of hopes ande desperation. Did any economic model include the notion that the Berlin Wall could be pulled down? Or that the USSR would collapse because it was an econimic mess? Or that Russia would get a bit stroppy?
Show me a model that includes that aspect of human life and I'll go back to writing a novel. (About unstable people. Like me. And possibly others.)
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B @ 392
you may wish to sacrifice efficiency for equality
I guess you're talking equality of outcome there but switching to equality of opportunity (a rather more nebulous concept, I know, but still) then I say it's massively and positively correlated to efficiency and wealth creation
why? - because the more Eq of Opp you have, the more people's potential is realised, and the more productive they will be - the sky's the limit!
core belief of mine
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398; Fubar.
Opaque,not transparent,you don`t see the market,it`s not a place but a process which signifies value according the scarcity of resources including human beings.
The composition of social classes is mostly determined by the supply and demand for labour. If you are unskilled you have low market power and are rewarded accordingly.Aggregate a lot of people like you and there is a social class.(DE,unskilled,semi skilled) If you are a great surgeon, you deploy a scarce resource and have considerable market power.Aggregate people like yourself and you have a social class witrh commensurate life chances.
The Market largely determines the class structure, and through it the patterns of political power and affiliation.
I hope that was helpful.
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353. fairlyopenmind
"Though, to be fair, I believe he said "No more TORY boom and bust!"... "
There is no "Tory boom and bust". Nor "NuLabour boom and bust". There is only capitalist boom and bust.
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359. EXXONMOBIL2
"We have no need to worry though because Electric Hermit insists there is only ONE (1) rule of Law in the UK"
You are having enough difficulty expressing your own views in a coherent fashion. As you have just proved, you are very far from qualified to represent mine.
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371. fairlyopenmind
"Interesting concept science versus economics"
If real science was like economics, the boiling point of water at sea level would be subject to the whim of whoever owned the kettle.
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Fubar@400
Doubt theres many Sun readers on here mate, apart from Saga... she got a copy the other day...
I don't read it either(or look at the pictures). Just had a look to see how obvious the pro tory propaganda was and it was. I also noticed that internet straw poll. It uses cookies to detect if you've voted before. If you clear them using your browser you can vote again.
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"Interesting concept science versus economics"
every Action has an equal and opposite Reaction ... and that's the case even if there's a Recession on
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#412. At 6:47pm on 02 Oct 2009, Electric Hermit wrote:
"371. fairlyopenmind
"Interesting concept science versus economics"
If real science was like economics, the boiling point of water at sea level would be subject to the whim of whoever owned the kettle."
E-H,
And so many people would pop up with alternative points of view. And perdict what it could possibly be in 1 -10 years time. (With suitable caveats, of course.)
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dhw @ 413
If you clear them using your browser you can vote again
not worried - the average Clown won't know how to do that
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#412, Electric Hermit wrote:
"371. fairlyopenmind
"Interesting concept science versus economics"
If real science was like economics, the boiling point of water at sea level would be subject to the whim of whoever owned the kettle."
Tired of this sort of stuff.
I like science that has a basis in demostrable proof, or ideas that others pull to pieces and either "prove"or "disprove". Economics can't offer that. Hasn't so far, as far as I can see. Doesn't mean much. I'm just a pleb with a concern that science should be something that you can kick about and somebody will find whether, in future it will be be repaetable. Economic theories?
Good for interpretation. Not so good for future certainty.
Goodness knows what would have happened if the Moon Launch had been based on economists' predictions? Hit or miss, I guess.
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403. Susan-Croft
Hey! I've got a stalker! They're always specially sad.
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#410, Electric Hermit wrote:
"353. fairlyopenmind
"Though, to be fair, I believe he said "No more TORY boom and bust!"... "
There is no "Tory boom and bust". Nor "NuLabour boom and bust". There is only capitalist boom and bust."
Electric,
There was a massive USSR assumption of internal wealth, then a massive bust because a so-called non capitalist society could not sustain itself.
So how do you describe that?
Capitalist or communist boom and bust?
What has been left behind in the West can reconstruct and sustain itself. What happened in the USSR is that a few "new style capitalists - handed massive financial options by the elite - witness Abramovich" will determine the future of a nation.
Where's the politically morality in that?
Why is China (a State celebrating 60 years of Communist rule) embracing such a capitalist future?
Spreading it around only makes sense if people understand that you have to use what you have - or have been offered - and make it work.
You grow a crop. Eat waht you need. Sell what you can afford? Capitalism.
What Castro couldn't quite that work out in between fathering children to be brought up at State expense. Hey Ho.
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417. fairlyopenmind
"Goodness knows what would have happened if the Moon Launch had been based on economists' predictions? Hit or miss, I guess."
But they would have been able to provide a very accurate model of the miss after the fact.
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fairlyopenmind 415
Fairly sounds as though you have made up your mind on the subject of economics therefore there does not seem to be much point in answering. I was sitting down to answer 407 when I caught your other post at 415. I felt you should know that I acknowledged your post.
May I point out it is not economists that make the mistakes these days, its Governments which think they know better. In the early days economics was finding its feet as with keynes these days we know given certain circumstance what the results will be. There is no ambiguity.
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416 sagamix
Im not worried either. If anyone here wants to do that then go ahead. The sun linked to at the top of the article is an obvious piece of propaganda. Its almost a spoof.
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409#
OK. I see where you're coming from now. I'm going to go away and think about it whilst doing a bit of chef'ing.
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421 Susan Croft
All this economics is making my head hurt. I' from the Micawber school myself and tonight there are bawbees in my pocket and there is live music at the pub, Hope and Social, of Glastonbury fame, so tonight will be happiness.
See you there Croftie? And the gang.
Worry about tomorrows misery in the morning.
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#421
The problem I have is that economics is simply theoretical. The only theory to believe in is 'the invisible hand'.
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419. fairlyopenmind
"There was a massive USSR assumption of internal wealth, then a massive bust because a so-called non capitalist society could not sustain itself.
So how do you describe that?
Capitalist or communist boom and bust?"
The economy of the Soviet Union was not immune to the effects of capitalist tensions and distortions because it engaged with the the capitalist economies of the west - principally through the arms race.
But the problem with your argument lies in the fact that it assumes the Soviet Union exemplified communism - and that communism exemplifies some kind of "Bizarro" version of capitalism. Consider also this - the fact that alternative economic systems do not co-exist well with capitalism may not signify the latter's superiority. Healthy cells do not easily co-exist with cancer.
"What has been left behind in the West can reconstruct and sustain itself. What happened in the USSR is that a few "new style capitalists - handed massive financial options by the elite - witness Abramovich" will determine the future of a nation.
Where's the politically morality in that?"
Did someone argue that there was some kind of some kind of "politically morality" in that? If anyone did, it certainly wasn't the yuppies out of London and New York who handed Russia's resources to the gangsters.
"Why is China (a State celebrating 60 years of Communist rule) embracing such a capitalist future?"
See above.
"You grow a crop. Eat waht you need. Sell what you can afford? Capitalism."
A common fallacy. What you describe is trade, not capitalism.
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421. Susan-Croft
"In the early days economics was finding its feet as with keynes these days we know given certain circumstance what the results will be. There is no ambiguity."
Not until you ask another economist.
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425. T A Griffin (TAG)
"The problem I have is that economics is simply theoretical. The only theory to believe in is 'the invisible hand'."
That hand is not invisible. It is cunningly concealed.
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xTunbirdge 424
Yep, sounds good to me, get the round in, coats is paying.
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429 Croftie,
Ok.
Dint realize how big Hope and Social are. Just googled them and there is even a site dedicated to tonites gig with pics of pub etc.
See u there then.
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#421, Susan-Croft wrote:
"fairlyopenmind 415
Fairly sounds as though you have made up your mind on the subject of economics therefore there does not seem to be much point in answering. I was sitting down to answer 407 when I caught your other post at 415. I felt you should know that I acknowledged your post.
May I point out it is not economists that make the mistakes these days, its Governments which think they know better. In the early days economics was finding its feet as with keynes these days we know given certain circumstance what the results will be. There is no ambiguity."
Susan,
I was trying to express a concern that "governments" introduce personal and unpredictable elements - just like normal people do in day-to-day life - and that introduces elements of ambiguity that is almost impossible to define.
Doesn't imply, and I certainly wouldn't try to imply, that "rational" economic thought is a flawed thing. Historical analysis and projection has a huge part to play. But models don't constrain anybody.
Goodness. I worked around people building models and always wanted stuff included that even I didn't think could be really sensible as a propsect, but some idiot could think along the same odd lines that I did and worry about it.
The circumstances change. There is lttle logic. Just "people decided - mostly politician decided" choices being imposed. Economists can deal with things that "conform" to some sort of logical activity. I can't find a lot of politically sensible logic over a decade or so.
But Brown surrounded himself with people claiming economic expertise. Balls, Cooper, et al. How did all that political and economic input go so wrong?
I simply don't understand how any computer model can cope with the
illogicality of human actions. I am fairly sure that economic models could have coped with a fairly sensible set of decisions. But politicians do odd things. As I think Brown did.
Where is that reflected in any reasonable model?
How do you build in the irrational? That's not an attack on economics as an area of study, which I totally aprove of. Just a worry that any area that can't be proven and testable for future outcome (as I sort of hope people can do with physical and chemical sciences). Most scientists live with the notion that a little bit more investigation will prove that a great idea will be dismantled.
Not anti-economists. Very anti-reality politicians.
BTW. One of these days, I expect that Chinese archeologists will find remains of a creature that produced methane emissions as cows do today, and had a way of igniting it - probably accidentally. Hence giving rise to the notion of dragons. Just so much archeological density there. And a lot of belief that spread around.
And probably as realistic as Brown's belief that he had eliminated "Boom and Bust". Nothing to do with "real" economists.
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*2009 PoliticsHome Electoral Index goes live at 7am tomorrow*
This is the survey of the marginals, so a bit more detail for us all to argue over!
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#426, Electric Hermit wrote:
"419. fairlyopenmind
"There was a massive USSR assumption of internal wealth, then a massive bust because a so-called non capitalist society could not sustain itself.
So how do you describe that?
Capitalist or communist boom and bust?"
The economy of the Soviet Union was not immune to the effects of capitalist tensions and distortions because it engaged with the the capitalist economies of the west - principally through the arms race.
But the problem with your argument lies in the fact that it assumes the Soviet Union exemplified communism - and that communism exemplifies some kind of "Bizarro" version of capitalism. Consider also this - the fact that alternative economic systems do not co-exist well with capitalism may not signify the latter's superiority. Healthy cells do not easily co-exist with cancer."
Electric,
I doubt that communism was ever practiced anywhere in the world. Certainly not in a "pure" communist state as proclaimed by the USSR or China (Cuba doesn't even qualify).
Maybe it could have worked, but all the nations who adopted it seemed to believe that a "ruling/dominant political class" however you describe it, would decide what was best for the general population.
How is that different from what most countries have nowadays?
The old USSR I went to - and also during it's transitional phase - showed that the sort of "stuff" people in the wicked West took for granted was only available to the inner circle. Escorted very senior USSR people across the UK and USA. They wouldn't believe that normal stuff was available in the shops for everybody, so had to drive for miles and stop wherever they chose, to just show that what the USSR could have delivered was actually available every day, to anybody, in nasty capitalist countries.
It could have been so in the USSR. Wonderfully welcoming, warm and inventive people. Heavy hand of the state. A bit like the UK today. Too much government, too little regulation of bad stuff. Too much intrusion.
Irritated me when I was there. Irritates me more here in the UK.
I quite like a social equilibrium. A bit of fairness. Based on what you do, how hard you work, not who you happen to be descended from or know.
Don't care which Manse the Beloved Leader came from. Just what he has done for 12 years. Individual lives are hard. Without some UK Soviet apparatchik (probably less able than you to understand the most recent rule changes) looking over your shoulder to determine whether you "obey the rules in a decent way" and should be allowed to do normal stuff.
USSR collapsed because it tried to combat the USA on a military level. The USA created an odd financial environment (and I don't believe they've ever bothered to correct it). The USSR built some terrific bits of technology, but (KGB guys) admitted it couldn't build/replicate lots of them.
Capitalism is extremely flawed. What's the workable alternative?
I have to go back to haikus. Typing is hard work.
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#430
..just checking where the gig is, long way from home then??
Better raid the piggy bank, Croftie says I'm paying all night and she doesn't drink halves.
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433. fairlyopenmind
"Heavy hand of the state. A bit like the UK today. Too much government, too little regulation of bad stuff. Too much intrusion.
"
Thought about this. I hear this kind of dour bleating so much it is mostly tuned out. But this time I thought about it.
I honestly can't remember the last time I had any dealings with a government agency. Just sorted out some tax issues. The guy I spoke to couldn't have been more pleasant. Told me not to worry about it. All sorted without me having to do much at all.
Neither can I recall the last time I felt restricted by state regulation. No government agency has ever tried to stop me doing the stuff I do. I just go about my daily life and nobody seems to take any interest at all.
I really can't say I have ever so much as sensed the presence of this crushing, omnipresent state machine I'm constantly being told is running my life.
I'm so glad I'm just ordinary, and not like you guys.
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333. Susan-Croft
"we do not produce cars in this Country as we used to do"
Just spotted this bit of nonsense. The truth (the stuff that brings you out in a rash) is that more vehicles were produced in the UK in each of the last three years than were produced in 1980. Over the preceding decade, production levels were at or close to those of the 1960s and 1970s.
The biggest decline in UK motor vehicle manufacturing was during the "Thatcher years". In 1984 the number of vehicles produced was 1.13 million. Last year it was 1.65 million.
Isn't it striking the delusions people will entertain simply to justify a rather pathetic need to feel hard done by.
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434 meninwhitecoats
You dint turn up! Oh yes the landlord made me clear your slate .
Missed a good night , Croftie can dance on tables like no other.
Too old to take it any more, last gig was a 5am job . I have to get up in the morning.
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436 EH re 333 Susan Croft.
Why do you feel you have to attempt destroy someone whose post you disagree with?
Also you have a nasty habit of delivering a final barb at the end of your posts.
You really are a nasty piece of work.
I have a firiend who can disagree by starting with the word yes. Yes that may be so he will say and then proceed to say why it is not so in a way that makes you feel he has developed your point and it is corrected without any of the bile that you constantly exhibit.
You are obviously knowledgable and intelligent so you have no need to be so downright rude, in fact you should know better.
Is it something in your past life that makes you as you are?
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Various:
The scientific status of economics?
Science is not a set of fixed principles, but institutional practices related to peer review of results,organized scepticism and a means of testing theories.It follows that dogma or `fixed principles` have no place in either the physical or social sciences. Both kinds of theory originate in conjectures,are organic and constantly changing.There is no scientific certainty.
It is sometimes argued that the physical sciences are predictive and the social sciences are not.But predictions are merely tests, and economics has plenty of examples of testable relationships:-Price as a function linking supply and demand;the theory of comparative advantage as the rationale for international trade,the source of economic crisis in the collapse of effective demand and so.
All these theories are hedged with restrictions, but so are physical theories like acceleration which assumes object move in a vacuum, while in nature you have wind velocity,barometric pressure,altitude,and other variables.But no-one complains physics is not a science!
There is a unity of method between the natural and social sciences,although their scope and techniques vary.Unlike dogmas or fixed principles,scientific theories take risks by being potentially falsifiable.If a theory cannot be tested then it is not science.As David Hume wrote, "Then consign it to the flames for it contains nothing but sophistry and metaphysics.
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438. xTunbridge
Save your pompous lectures. I don't even read them.
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This present blog is turning into the longest day. The sun has been up too long.
What shall be on Dave's little list next week?
Chastity belts?
Work houses?
Put the greater part of the populace into 'stasis'?
Hypnotism on the NHS, free in your own home if you have HD?
A bee tsar?
CD tsar?
An alphabet soupreemo?
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441. Oudeis
"A bee tsar?
CD tsar?"
I want a "rats tsar" and "star tsar". Just so I can watch the newsreaders weep.
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#Electric Hermit 440
I had to smile when I saw you ,top of the Premier League of pomposity, refer to xTunbridge's piece as being pompous. Congratulations on managing to combine self importance with a lack of self awareness.
By the way, if you didn't read the "lecture", how did you know it was pompous?
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Good Morning Andrew,
maybe it is not the 'invisible hand' which is the problem, maybe the problem is 'ceteris paribus'.
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Goodmorning each & Andrew.
#442 Electric Hermit
Touche.
Community commitment commissioner?
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413. dhwilkinson
It uses cookies to detect if you've voted before. If you clear them using your browser you can vote again.
Hi dh.. Sounds like you're taking Mandelson's advice and becoming an "insurgent" ;-)
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420. Electric Hermit wrote:
417. fairlyopenmind
"But they would have been able to provide a very accurate model of the miss after the fact."
Sounds like an own goal there, EH.
=
436. At 00:17am on 03 Oct 2009, Electric Hermit wrote:
333. Susan-Croft
"we do not produce cars in this Country as we used to do"
"The biggest decline in UK motor vehicle manufacturing was during the "Thatcher years". In 1984 the number of vehicles produced was 1.13 million. Last year it was 1.65 million."
Increases in efficiency, streamlining, new technologies, etc. should be factored in to this as well.
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#439 Bryhers
I do agree with most of your post but would add that once a scientific theory has been proven and can be repeatably reproduced it is generally applied and interpreted in a consistent way until it can be disproved.
Economics still has a degree of subjectivity about it and cannot be road tested in the same way. I accept there are well tried models but evaluation of success or failure rather depends on your particular perspective.
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HE 436
As usual you miss the point entirely. The car scrappage scheme while having a temporary effect in keeping workers for the car companies employed longer, we do not have UK owned volume car producers anymore. Therefore the flow of the real money goes out of the Country. This has in no way improved our economy merely added to Government debt. As a fiscal stimulus in Countries that own volume car producers it would be something to use if it can be afforded.
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Ecomomics... science?
No matter what economic system or ideology you subscribe to, all are vulnerable to human fallibility. Some would argue that in a capitalist free market one there is greater risk for that than in a more 'socialist' approach.
To a layman such as myself it looks like New Labour has tried to embrace both but due in large part to 'human fallibility' has failed to get either part right.
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xTunbridge 437
I had a great time, you should not have gone home so soon I got a lot better as the night went on, coats still owes us. I will catch him next time.
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436#
"The truth (the stuff that brings you out in a rash)"
I know some of my banter can be a bit.... robust, but... Gah, what do I know... You wouldnt have read it anyway.
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FOM 391:
It`s just riduclous to equate what people do in a domestic environment with the potential costs if you brought them in."
Possibly,but you may be aware of recent debate about paid housework and how it might be costed? One solution would be `oppportunity cost,`or the equivalent market value of work done in the home.This issue devolves on whether domestic work contributes to wealth? If it does the OC is a way of measuring it.
There are many other issues in your wide ranging post which I may have touched on in subsequent blogs.
EH 428:
"The hand is cunningly concealed"
Or just mislaid,it is 250 years since the Scottish enlightenment.
Tag:444
Have a look at para 5,439.
Coats 449
Economics assumes rational behaviour.If it didn`t businessmen would buy dear and sell cheap,coffee would be produced in Kent and cob nuts in Kenya.Fear and Greed play their part, but ceteris paribus,other things being equal.To acknowledge the limits of reason is itself rational.
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blamegame
I voted several times for 'Others'. probably not practical unless you can program the process in a loop though.
Here's the link for anyone who's interested. Its also an amusingly obvious piece of outrageous propaganda worthy of the most hardcore tories on these blogs and Have your say.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2661063.ece
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362. At 1:12pm on 02 Oct 2009, Fubar_Saunders wrote:
359#
Of course theres only one rule of law, E-M!
And, like taxation.... it only applies to the little people.
===
Exactly so. As proved by the recent decision to exclude the children of politicians from the ContactPoint database (otherwise known as the paedophile's menu).
One rule for the little people, another for the ruling elite.
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362. At 1:12pm on 02 Oct 2009, Fubar_Saunders wrote:
359#
Of course theres only one rule of law, E-M!
And, like taxation.... it only applies to the little people.
===
(Reposted due to sensitive moderators)
Indeed Fubar. As evidenced from politicians excluding themselves from having their children's details included on the ContactPoint database.
Doesn't say much for their confidence in its security and integrity, does it?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1217793/Politicians-celebrities-granted-permission-names-child-database.html
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454. dhwilkinson
Thanks for the link to the Sun, dh.
Reminded me why I've managed to get by without it... don't think that's about to change..
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447. TheBlameGame
"Sounds like an own goal there, EH."
Why would you think that? Clearly, one thing economics is very good at is post hoc analysis. Economists are adept at telling us what happened and why after the event. What they are less good at is applying these models of the past as tools for predicting future trends. The pontifications of economists are, self-evidently, a very poor basis for policy-making. Were it otherwise, the very concept of "boom and bust" would be irrelevant to the point of being nonsensical.
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447. TheBlameGame
"Increases in efficiency, streamlining, new technologies, etc. should be factored in to this as well."
Why? When reactionary whingers are bemoaning the demise of the UK's vehicle manufacturing they don't trouble themselves with such niceties. Their dour message is as simplistic as their warped world-view. "We used to make lots of cars. Now we hardly make any." The fact that this is not true is irrelevant. Only the whinge matters.
The more of these dismal Jeremiahs who emigrate the better. They are not interested in effecting change. They are simply looking for an excuse to do nothing.
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theblamegame"457
My arguement is not really about the Sun but that is the topic. Its about media interference in politics. Like News Internationals campaign for shallow personality based debates which is being discussed now on Nick Robinson and their campaigning for a no in Ireland which they thankfully in my view lost.
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...I did just wonder what adverts will be screened during and/or around these televised deabates?
Cocoa or Red Moo? [this IS the beeb]
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449. Susan-Croft
"we do not have UK owned volume car producers anymore"
Desperate as you are to deny it, vehicle production in the UK continues at much the same level it has for the past forty years. In terms of pump-priming, it matters not at all if the firms producing these vehicles are not UK-owned. It only matters that the vehicles are not imported.
The car scrappage scheme, which you so foolishly dismiss as a failure, has in reality had a major impact in that it maintained demand and production at a significantly higher level than would otherwise have been the case. And it also increased the sale of domestically produced units as a proportion of total sales.
The effectiveness of this pump-priming in relation to the economy as a whole is limited, as has already been acknowledged. But the scrappage scheme does serve as an example of how Keynesian pump-priming can work. Only your desperate need to portray absolutely everything the government does as a failure prompts you to argue otherwise. Try looking at things in a less prejudiced and more rational way. Perhaps then you would not have to be corrected so often.
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449. Susan-Croft
"As a fiscal stimulus in Countries that own volume car producers it would be something to use if it can be afforded. "
This would explain why such Keynesian measures are being "dismissed", of course. (#233)
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453. bryhers
""The hand is cunningly concealed"
Or just mislaid,it is 250 years since the Scottish enlightenment."
I think it is more that the concept of the "invisible hand" is misunderstood. Or, as in the case of Thatcher and her disciples, that it is maliciously misrepresented.
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Electric Hermit
#462 and others
what a shame the blog doesn't allow you to type in green font, it would be so much more appropriate.
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Is this Andrew Neil s blog, or Susan Croft's?
What a waste of the license payer s money
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460. dhwilkinson wrote:
My arguement is not really about the Sun but that is the topic. Its about media interference in politics.
Understood.. but that's a fact of life wherever there's politics, whether the press be state-owned or privately-owned.
For a democracy like ours we do not have a really strong independent voice in the MSM. Ironically some of the best independent press comes out of dictatorships, starting underground. That's all moved onto the internet now.
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465 yellowbelly
EH in green ink, with red underlinings?
50 odd years ago I had a GP who used green ink.
I often wondered about his state of mind. Mind you he was always polite.
Probably like the chap who threw a brick at the Inspector of Lunatic Assylums to remind him he had promised to get him released.
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466 palestinianpatriot
Love your handle, bet MI5 camp outside your place.
I thought it was Electric Hermit's blog site. His production is phenomenal.
At least Crofties contributions are well thought out, well argued and without vitriol.
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468. xTunbridge
Seems I've got me another virtual stalker. The celebrations will be muted.
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469. xTunbridge
"At least Crofties contributions are well thought out, well argued and without vitriol."
Whereas yours seem to consist mainly of pointless whining about other contributors. What is notable is that, for all you deprecate my posts, you are never quite up to the task of challenging them in a calm and rational manner. Ad hominem is fine in its place. But it appears to be all you have to offer. Time for you to grow up a little, maybe?
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palestinianpatriot 466
Quite correct, I am more than happy to step aside for you to engage in conversation with Electric Hermit. You would make me extremely happy indeed if you could stop HE writing to me. Then perhaps I could talk about something that floats my boat instead of answering HE all the time.
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472. Susan-Croft
"You would make me extremely happy indeed if you could stop HE writing to me."
I'm sure you would be delighted if your nonsense went unchallenged. You seem ill-equipped to deal with such challenges. But it's not going to happen. The solution is not difficult to see. Check your facts. And think before you post.
Seemples! Tchk! Tchk!
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467. TheBlameGame
"Ironically some of the best independent press comes out of dictatorships, starting underground. That's all moved onto the internet now. "
Does this hint at a possible remedy for the current difficulties faced by the print media? Perhaps if they were more independent and/or more radical then readers would return. Perhaps they should go head-to-head with the internet.
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471 EH
Deprecate ? Moi?
I have said that your posts are of substance but negated by the manner in which you spit them at other contributors.
Deprecate your posts Sir , never. The manner in which you more often than not issue them , yes.
I love your asking me to be calm and rational. What was it you said about me a few hundred posts back about like being declared sane by someone dressed as Napoleon Bonaparte, ( I just love that),so being asked to be calm and rational by yourself is somewhat akin to being asked to be gentle by Vlad the Impaler.
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HE 473
I do not find you a challenge at all thats the problem. You see when other bloggers put forward an argument it is usually done in a manner were a lot of thought has gone into it and they have a very plausible argument. That to me is a challenge. All you do is go away search the web to find an article which suits what you want to say, mix it up a bit and come to your own conclusion. When someone is using this method it is inevitable that the answer will be wrong. You are so busy trying to breakdown my arguments that any reasonable contribution you make is conpletely lost.
I will answer on scrappage we import 80% of cars sold in the UK, 45m of the 227m spent on scrappage went towards buying a British car the rest went to foreign cars when I last looked. Now you can do the maths yourself. In Germany the situation is different and their scrappage scheme has been a success. The only people gaining by our scrappage scheme are foreign Countries who are saying thank you very much.
Yes it will give car dealers etc a boost for a short time and keep people in work a little longer, however it will do nothing for the economy which was the original argument. I do not care when the most cars were sold whether under Thatcher or anyone else we are in the here and now. This policy also has the effect of what economists call deadweight loss which is giving a benefit to people who would have purchased that product anyway in time but the time factor is moved up to during the period the offer is being made.
Also there are the extra costs incurred for crushing/disposing of vehicles.
Scrappage has not even helped with green issues, the ETA has said that it is assumed a new car is less polluting than the old one it replaces this overlooks the enviromental impact of scrappage of the old car and the building of the new.
Now the car industry has been looked at extensively in the UK and it has been found that it is in need of reform as it is declining rapidly. Therefore we have thrown money perhaps at the wrong thing anyway.
You need to grow up and understand people will have a different point of view to you and that they are entitled to that view. No amount of nasty posts will make me or anyone else accept something they do not believe themselves.
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#453. At 12:05pm on 03 Oct 2009, bryhers wrote:
"FOM 391:
It`s just riduclous to equate what people do in a domestic environment with the potential costs if you brought them in."
Possibly,but you may be aware of recent debate about paid housework and how it might be costed? One solution would be `oppportunity cost,`or the equivalent market value of work done in the home.This issue devolves on whether domestic work contributes to wealth? If it does the OC is a way of measuring it."
Bryers,
I'm aware of the "opportunity cost" argument and don't dismiss it. Just wonder what you do about it? For those who choose to stay at home (mothers or fathers...) to look after children or care for parents or just because they can afford it, there is evidently a loss of potential earning power/contribution to a wider economy. (Though possibly an opportunity benefit for those they care for.)
Many if not most folk seem to do domestic work around the "paid job". Some go out and pay others less (normally!) to care for children or do domestic stuff.
Don't see much political interest in offering tax-offsets based on "value of unpaid work" against income from a partner.
Enthusiastic D-I-Y ers save themselves money but deprive others of an earning opportunity? Surprised Brown hasn't taxed "opportunity value" they withhold from the community of plumbers, decorators, electrician, kitchen fitters, etc.
BTW. I have a sneaky regard for economists. Just that - as you suggested - models tend to expect a rational set of actions performed by companies and people. I question that. Many companies seem to do quite irrational things (sometimes illegal, too) that can be rationalised, but
destroy value. It's the apparent lack of models to reflect the probability or indeed certainty that people will do daft things that suggests the retrospective competence, but future uncertainty in economic projections and hence decision making.
The fact that finance houses are sitting on massive mountains of "toxic assets" is completely irrational. If they can't define the value, it suggests they didn't perform due diligence in any real way. Not a huge problem for the odd couple of million here or there - but BILLIONS?
I'm not sure it's very rational of a government to effectively "buy-in" such assets on tax-payers' behalf.
If bankers can define the value, they're in a position to write down their assets. If they can't, I find it hard to imagine that government finanial wizards (a la FSA/Treasury/BoE?) know what they will be buying on our behalf...
Science "evolves" in fits and bounds. On the whole, it doesn't stop any previous successful application from working. Just changes the scope for future applications.
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451 Susan Croft
Glad you enjoyed it Croftie. I couldnt stay any longer, anno domini and a young lady who needed help getting home. When is Coats going to join in?
I have ben waiting for ages to use a wonderful phrase I picked up on an archealogical prog. But all this economics theory v practice aint the vehicle.
The Lockerbie thing,(sorry), would have been ideal with so many demanding indusputable evidence of the obvious when it will not surface for 60 years, and the situation and circumstances make it obvious what has happened . I reckon these doubters must be related to the hand in the holes man, Thomas.
Anyway the saying these chaps have when searching for a site which everything says should be there but they cannot find so much as a pot shard, is, "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" . Now those are open minds.
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478. xTunbridge
""absence of evidence is not evidence of absence""
Closing your eyes to the evidence does not mean the evidence is absent. Now that is a closed mind.
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476. Susan-Croft
"No amount of nasty posts will make me or anyone else accept something they do not believe themselves. "
There's your problem in a nutshell. Like the religiously deluded, you see facts as subordinate to your beliefs.
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Croftie , Electric H
You may be able to help me.
To my shame I know little of the modern car production in the UK.
When, not that long ago, it was home grown products, Austin, Morris, Wolsely, Riley, Rover, Triumph, Hillman, Humber, Singer etc not only were the cars made locally but all the parts and supplies needed to sustain the operation were sourced locally.
Massive firms, such as Lucas, grew to provide electrics, SU carburetors,
Dunlop and Goodyear tyres, Hardy Spicer power train equipment,Smiths instruments,etc all long gone or drastically scaled down.
Now the question. As Nissan, peugeot etc vehicles are produced here now ,are they made from imported components or is there still a thriving "parts" sub industry somewhere? This is equally as important as the production of a vehicle as it spreads the work and money around. If not , we have little more than assembly plants, not a comprehensive manufacturing base.
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479 EH
That is a variation I like.
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481. xTunbridge
The Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT) has a very informative website and publishes a document called Motor Industry Facts 2009 which can be found here.
You might also be interested in the following from the autoindustry.co.uk website,
"The automotive components manufacturing sector is a major part of the UK motor industry, comprising at least 2,600 firms with an annual added value of £4.5 billion and employing an estimated 115,000 people. The sector includes many major multi national firms and a large number of SMEs, many of which also supply other sectors." - Source
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483 EH
Thank you
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474. Electric Hermit
Does this hint at a possible remedy for the current difficulties faced by the print media? Perhaps if they were more independent and/or more radical then readers would return. Perhaps they should go head-to-head with the internet.
Certainly an exposé like the expenses 'scandal' proved that print media can still pull readers. A smaller publication would not have been able to afford the discs or the risk of lawsuits. For now the internet offers an alternative for independently minded publishers which is relatively low cost and fairly maintenance free after startup. (As you will have some experience of..)
I would imagine governments are continuously looking at new ways of having more control over this relatively new political forum.
Times and markets have changed but with the current climate of disillusionment it feels like there is a shift back to the more challenging attitudes of the 60s and 70s. Compare the interest of teenagers and students in politics to those of decades past. Sad to see. The only way to engage them now is through the 'net.
The more maverick bloggers and online forums are growing in size. Will we see their equivalent in print? The likes of Private Eye are no longer considered cutting edge but they remain a nuisance factor for the establishment, but I can't see a return to that era for print.
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Have you noticed that Mr Bombastic always wins his arguments because he is very selective about which ones he responds to.
Clearly his posts are more to do with his ego than much else.
The scrappage scheme is little more than an aspirin to tend to a migraine, bearing in mind that most of the UK producedrs of cars were attracted here by government grants, so having them 'up skirts' and leave would be a major embarrassment. Bear in mind also that scrappage is not generating new sales, merely bringing forward purchases which will be missing in furture months.
Play the pedant by all means EH, just try not to play it so well, for all our benefits.
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gp @ 486
not sure anybody EVER manages to settle an argument on these BBC blogs ... puppy in a spin dryer!
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486. GomerPyle
Another voice joins the whingers' chorus.
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486. GomerPyle
"Bear in mind also that scrappage is not generating new sales..."
It wasn't intended to. Nor did anyone pretend that it had. So, your point is...?
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485. TheBlameGame
"The more maverick bloggers and online forums are growing in size. Will we see their equivalent in print? The likes of Private Eye are no longer considered cutting edge but they remain a nuisance factor for the establishment, but I can't see a return to that era for print. "
I think it is possible. Did technology kill books, as many used to predict would happen? Quite the opposite. I see the development of a new relationship between the net and newspapers as a distinct possibility. There is surely a model in which online content can drive sales of hard-copy. I don't pretend to know exactly what shape that model might take. But I would not discount it completely.
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483 EH British Automotive Industry
Had a quick look at the SMMT site, the reports are written by a verbiage graduate and bull up an industry which seems to be a shadow of its former self.
I have looked at a few component maufacturers, will look at more when time allows, and they are all after market suppliers. Good business yes but hardly lorry loads of parts turning up at vehicle production factories as part of the new build set up.
First impression the SMMT are putting on a brave face in a difficult and much diminished market. But good luck to them.
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491. xTunbridge
"Had a quick look at the SMMT site, the reports are written by a verbiage graduate and bull up an industry which seems to be a shadow of its former self."
Another triumph of faith over facts.
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Whinger - moi ?
I'm just lumping one temoporary sop with another. You could have countered that, by deduction, the sooner we stop supporting foreign corporations the better however, it is more interesting to note that the government is more likely to support companies they had to pay grants to build in this country than home grown ones. Of course I exclude MG Rover from the equation.
I'll be your whinger if that helps you retain your self-image EH.
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#451#478
...apart from the obvious distractions at weekends of the garden, the house, the dog and err...... oh yes the family, I am having far too much fun enjoying your adventures to comtemplate my own.
But I am watching and may dip a toe in the water later....
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492 EH
Triumph now they were good cars. Had several. The Vitesse was my favourite . Straight six borrowed from the Standard Vanguard. A brilliant engine which powered in various guises the GT6, TR6, 2.5PI,
2000 and others I have no doubt forgotten.
Now "facts" there is a good word. A bit like "gospel". Its all acording to who methinks. But give me time the SMMT site is quite extensive and it may yet counter my first impression.
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477:
I am not sure I have understood your question correctly.Are you asking whether O/C is compensation for stay at home spouses/ partners
for the loss of their usual income? Or whether all domestic work should be compensated financially?
Domestic work does have financial benefits in the form of children`s allowances.These include child benefit,tax credits and allowances for paid childcare.There is also a view that full-time domestic work should also be salaried because it adds to national wealth.
O/C would be a method of costing this unlikely commitment.Not at the rate someone might earn in their usual job,but the rate their domestic work would attract in a market environment.
Bryher
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493. GomerPyle
"You could have countered that, by deduction, the sooner we stop supporting foreign corporations the better however, it is more interesting to note that the government is more likely to support companies they had to pay grants to build in this country than home grown ones."
What does any of this have to do with the demonstrably false claim of massive decline in the UK vehicle manufacturing industry?
The more general point I was making is that the claims of the whingers should always be taken with a generous skip-load of salt. Claims that the UK is particularly lawless. Claims that the UK has a particularly onerous tax regime. Claims that UK manufacturing industry has suffered a massive decline.
All of these claims, and more, are either totally false or so massively exaggerated as to be a warped caricature of reality. They are closely related to another phenomenon that characterises the reactionary right. The Euromyth. They are like the trumped up stories about the EU which pepper the trashy press, but directed at the UK.
We are entitled to wonder why people indulge in such perverse behaviour. And we are certainly entitled to challenge the lies and distortions.
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in Strictly Come Dancing, after the judges' votes are in, Tess Daly always says to the public ... "remember, nobody is safe so make sure you pick up the phone and support your favourite couple!" - she does, just take it from me - but the thing is, the way the voting system works, the top few couples from the judges' votes ARE completely safe - even if these top few couples ... precise number depends on how many are left and how many ties there've been in the judges' vote ... even if these top few couples don't receive a single vote from the public phone poll, they CANNOT be in the dance off and so they CANNOT be eliminated! - they'll be there next week - still in it, can still win it - and yet every single week, Tess Daly tells this porkie about "nobody's safe" so as to maximise the number of calls ... a lot of those calls no doubt from people voting for the top couples ... voting needlessly, therefore, and wasting their time and money - soliciting money under false pretences? - you tell me - a symptom of the declining standards of public life under Labour? - some might say so
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490. Electric Hermit
"Did technology kill books, as many used to predict would happen? Quite the opposite...."
The biggest advantage the internet has over print is speed.
News is immediate and short-lived, stories develop by the hour.
Books are a different medium, longer shelf-life.
Gaming and the internet had an initial effect but they have made a comeback. I think JK Rowling may have had something to do with that! And the web is helping drive up interest in books for e.g. through online purchasing and authors attracting interest on social networking sites. Whether the same can be achieved by the print media, I'm not sure. Perhaps what they need are some genuine cult figures, writers with a bit more bite than the party-faithful poodles you find populating the mainstream media.
Most print media titles are now obliged to have online offerings, I think I'm right in saying The Spectator will be the first of the mainstream press to charge for online content which is already in print; others will doubtless follow.
I'm guilty of not making time to read the papers... read the news online while a file is uploading, post some drivel while another file is downloading... as long as I don't get my emails and comments mixed up. There is something special about a well-laid out and well written broadsheet. Tabloids don't do it for me.
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... right back to me time .
Now guys how should the Tories deal with the Irish yes vote in their conference?
- should they play it for cheap votes i.e. attract the Sun voters?
I am in a bit of a quandary on this one - I will come clean, I have been a bit of a Eurosceptic but professionally I am seeing so many American companies dismantling good UK companies that I am starting to question my opinions.
I have not seen "the light" with the EU but is it the least worst option?
I'm dithering here, I really don't know - perhaps I am just a "little Englander" living off our past perceived glories.
Am I ready to accept life as the third or fourth part of the European jigsaw - will my pride allow that?
Did Britannia ever rule the waves?
- or are we a necessary counterbalance to the ambitions of France and Germany?
Perhaps it is all a sign of our insecurity that we revel in the "special relationship" of being America's poodle?
over to you guys....
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