Very murky waters indeed
Now that the dust has settled, only somewhat and perhaps only for now, over the return of the Lockerbie bomber, we can see some things with a little more clarity -- but much remains murky in the extreme.
For a start, despite the speculation, nobody has produced clinching evidence to show the British government did a backstairs' deal with Colonel Gaddafi for the bomber's return. On the other hand, it is now quite clear that London was anxious to normalise relations with Tripoli as quickly and as best it could -- and that Gaddafi had made it clear that could not happen unless the bomber was sent back.
As a result, attention has moved away from the Scottish government's decision to free the bomber on controversial "compassionate" grounds to London and the role the British government might have played in facilitating the Lockerbie bomber's release. And here we enter very murky waters indeed.
Official and unofficial British government contacts with Libya have been extensive. Last night we learned that three government ministers have made trips to Tripoli in the last 15 months: the then trade minister Digby Jones (May 2008), Health minister Dawn Primarolo (November 2008) and Foreign Office minister Bill Rammell (February 2009).
We do not know what was said in any of these Tripoli talks. But remember this: Saif Gaddifi, the Libyan dictator's favourite son and a key figure in the bomber's release, has averred that "in all commercial contracts for oil and gas with Britain, Megrahi [the now-released bomber] was always on the table." So it's reasonable to assume the ministers had their ears bent.
But not them alone. In recent years two British prime ministers, a Russian oligarch, the scion of a European banking dynasty, a Prince of the Realm, a leader of Big Oil and our very own "Prince of Darkness" (aka Business Secretary Peter Mandelson) have all had walk-on parts, if not more, in events that preceded the release of the Lockerbie bomber. It's a cast of characters that would do justice to a Bond film.
At the centre of this possible web of intrigue is Saif, the shaven-headed, London School of Economics-educated son of the Libyan dictator. Turns out he is a good friend of Oleg Deripaska, the Russian aluminium baron, and Nat Rothschild, of the eponymous banking dynasty.
Saif invited both to his 37th birthday party in June in Becici in Montenegro, into which Deripaska and Rothschild have poured around $1 billion to create a sort of St Tropez in the Balkans. Saif is also pumping Libyan money into Montenegro from his country's vast investment fund, reason enough for Rothschild last year to host a party in his honour in New York.
What's all this got to do with the Lockerbie bomber? Well consider this. Peter Mandelson's love of holidaying with the rich and famous in exotic places took him to Corfu this month for the second year in a row. Last August he visited Rothschild in his $60m Corfu estate and stayed on Deripaska's luxury yacht. This August he stayed at the Rothschild villa - and met Saif Gaddafi.
Mandelson claims the meeting was only "fleeting" but officials admit they did discuss the Lockerbie case. A week later it became public that the bomber might be released on "compassionate" grounds though, of course, there may be no connection. It was then revealed that Mandelson had previously met Saif at a reception in London in May.
The Business Secretary maintains that any suggestion that a deal was being cooked up is not just wrong but "offensive", which we should accept at face value until facts suggest otherwise.
But we have it from Saif's own mouth that there could be no real progress in British-Libyan business co-operation unless the matter of the Lockerbie bomber was dealt with.
So in all London's extensive discussions with Libya, did the British government never discuss what might be done?
Discussions, after all, have been going on at the highest level for at least five years.
In 2004 Prime Minister Tony Blair flew to a tent outside Tripoli to do his so-called "deal in the desert" with Colonel Gaddafi which led to a broad rapprochement with Libya, a significant part of which was a prisoner transfer agreement which Gaddafi always saw as a means of bringing back his bomber.
At the time, powerful voices in Scotland said the Lockerbie bomber should be excluded from this agreement since there was only one Libyan in a Scottish jail. But London insisted it cover Scotland too. The schmoozing of Libya has continued under Gordon Brown, who met with the Libyan dictator during the recent G8 summit in Italy.
Business contacts have increased the Blair visit: Lord (John) Browne, then boss of BP and a key Blair confidant, had numerous meetings with Colonel Gaddafi which culminated in a $1 billion oil deal in 2007. But the really big deals still eluded Britain, the BP deal progressed slowly and the Libyans were growing angry that their bomber remained in captivity.
By now Tripoli had made it clear repeatedly, at a number of influential levels, that they wanted Megrahi back.
As part of the British charm offensive Prince Andrew, the Queen's second son who acts as Britain's special trade representative, has visited Libya three times in the past year (as well as visiting the Deripaska-Rothschild resort in Monenegro).
Saif has gone out of his way to befriend the Prince (who was due to make a fourth visit this year until the Libyans proved a tad too enthusiastic in welcoming back Megrahi). It is inconceivable, many will think, that Saif did not press Andrew on the matter (Buckingham Place is vague about it).
Libyan impatience turned to anger. When the Swiss arrested Saif's younger brother Hannibal for allegedly beating his staff, Colonel Gaddafi cut off oil supplies to Switzerland and withdrew billions of dollars from its banks. The Swiss retreated with a grovelling apology. The British, perhaps, saw it as a sign of what could happen to them if they didn't move faster on the Lockerbie bomber.
The British government has maintained throughout that the bomber's release was a matter for the devolved Scottish judicial system, which is, of course, technically correct.
But I have it on good authority that, privately, Scotland's First Minister, Alex Salmond, says he was in no doubt London wanted Megrahi returned to Tripoli. A letter from a junior Foreign Office minister in London to the Scottish government encouraging it to "consider" his release has been leaked. I know of no serious observer of British politics who believes that London would leave such a sensitive foreign policy matter purely to Edinburgh.
Prime Minister Gordon Brown has maintained a curious omerta on the matter, not even venturing a view on whether his native Scotland was right or wrong to return the bomber and venturing only the commonplace view that he was upset by the bomber's welcome on his return.
Colonel Gaddafi has been more explicit: on the bomber's return he went out of his way to thank not just Scotland but the British government. Oh yes, and Saif has just bought a $20m house in fashionable Hampstead, North London.
So all is now, apparently, hunky-dory between London and Tripoli now the bomber is back in the bosom of his family.
But at what price for Britain's reputation for plain, honest dealing with dictators and resolution against terrorism?
Lockerbie, after all was the worst-ever terrorist atrocity in British history - and the man from Tripoli was the only one ever found guilty of it
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~03~RS~)
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Good morning Andrew.
I trust you too are rested?
Libya seems so yesterday though. All smoke and no heat.
Still, it is good to be back.
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P.S.
'Plutocracy' may become the buzz word in this run-up to the election and is not far removed from what you have said above.
As my mother used to say...
"Money talks and I am speechless."
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Welcome back Andrew!!
Excellent post. Very probing, makes for very interesting reading.
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...
But at what price for Britain's reputation for plain, honest dealing with dictators and resolution against terrorism?
This one is easily resolved...
Resolved by; kow-towing to the zionists over Palestine; putting more men in Afghanistan and sticking it to Iran.
For many years now the UK has done nothing but accede to the demands of dictators. Some have done quite well out of it too.
Such IS Plutocracy after all.
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Good day Andrew
The usual suspects always seem to be involved in this sort of subterfuge, I exclude Brown from this because I don't believe he has the influence or communication skills to schmooze the oligarchs - he is just hanging on to Mandelson's coat tails.
NuLab has played a blinder in trying to offload all the blame onto the SNP and Scottish Parliament to protect their international reputation and improve their electoral prospects north of the border - fortunately it has back fired on them; no one believes a word they say and it has left Brown looking weaker and more ineffectual than ever.
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As always, it's about power and money. Corfu being the preferred summer retreat for cosy chats.
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Every one is a winner except Justice.
British Government gets some juicy contracts, as doubtless will the USA, rather well timed to give give some cover for the health care debate. Tories can bash both Labour and the SNP. Labour as UK government can blame SNP in Scotland. Not sure what the SNP get apart from a headache, perhaps not a cut in the forthcoming budget?
I think we are unlikely to get to the full bottom of the truth. That also includes whether the bomber was just a convenient scapegoat for all concerned.
Cynical, moi.
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But the Americans have also been cozying up to the Libyans, in the form of a delegation led by Senator John McCain. I would not be at all surprised if US oil companies win everything in the endgame stage, after all they have prevailed before in the Middle East when it comes to oil.
Post WW2 the USA usurped all main oil contracts with Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and most of the other Gulf states leaving BP with err North Sea oil and gas.
But the biggest blow is you say, is the tarnishing of the British governments oft stated stance where HMG does not deal with terrorists. This period in our history has clearly dispelled that as a myth.
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...more acutely...
Is this Britain worth considering as a sovereign country?
I doubt that this Britain has the standing of a state (51st or otherwise).
We are hardly a 'protectorate' either as we too must supply soldiers to do the bidding of others.
It seems to me that we (Britain) have been subsumed into a new-world feudalism. Where we answer the call of our liege lord.
That we maybe in line to be punished for 'rebelliousness' seems to be the thrust of your final point.
I am aware of feeling the dubious comfort of 21st centuary Dunkirk sand in my private places.
"Vassal meet again, don't know where don't know when..."
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It always comes down to who's got the oil.
By now you would think that, with the nation's brains and ingenuity, we would have already had a viable alternative to oil/petrol... and would not be in this pickle.
Too many lucrative backhanders to refuse I suspect.
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No backstairs' deal: then you lay out the intrigue and relationships. Seems to be about oil and money. Once again it is the interest of wealth that trumps justice. Business and banking interest directing foreign policy. Fact is that most nations are now governed by spineless politicians who are front men for banking and industries. The merchants of death care little of the personal suffering of citizens or the laws. National captials are more like royal courts of the past and let no common citizen bring forth a complaint of injustice or just as in China that individual will be punished. Complaining about the governmental boot on your throat is viewed as ingraditude. Wasn't there some statement some time back about not doing business with countries that support terrorist? Must be some small print not provided to the public. Compassion! Only politicians would use a moral value term to describe an immoral act. Just when you think politicians can't sink any lower, they surprise you. If prostitution is going to be foreign policy, leave the girls on the streets alone or elect them to office, at least they are honest about the deal.
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...
War in Sudan's Darfur 'is over'
So says the BBC headline.
UN's military commander General Martin Agwai, who is leaving his post this week, has spoken...
Gen Agwai said only one rebel group, the Justice and Equality Movement (Jem), posed a real threat.
What's in a name?
I wonder if there is such a thing as UNjustice and UNequality?
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Andrew,
when we say that we cosy up to some governments then we have to continue asking about the Americans and extra-ordinary rendition and enhanced interrogation techniques. We cannot keep silent on these issues, if a country who are our allies have participated in 'torture' then we must say so. The guilty ones must be brought to book.
As for the continuing silence by Brown on the issue of the release of the convicted Libyan terrorist he really must be asked the questions which you and many others pose. He cannot be allowed to hide behind his 'nothing to do with me stance'. Questions which should have been asked when we went to war with Iraq were not asked and we know where that got us, so journalists, ask the questions, because if you don't then you are as guilty as those not giving answers to legitimate enquiries.
As for Brown, we must be told now if he will be going to the funeral of 'Sir' Ted Kennedy, or will the Queen, who bestowed the knighthood on a man who left a poor young woman to die after crashing his car off a bridge, send some flunky to attend to represent our country. Hope that Gordon is enjoying his holiday, noting how he broke it to speak to the Prime Minister of a country which is in breach of UN resolutions on illegal settlements.
Who exactly is leading the country this week, is it Brown or is it Jack Straw, both of whome do a good disapearing act. It's that man Macavity again.
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Please remember the hidden criticism of Britain when Obama made his inaugral speach. Was or was not his father tortured by the British during Mau-Mau in Kenya, and did or did not Britain burn down some buildings in Wasgington during the first American civil war, which some refer to as the American war of Independence but I think that is an incorrect reading of history. The Americans fought against their legal rulers at the time, they were the terrorist insurgents!
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I saw this comment below on a different BBC have your say which I think says it all:
Soldiers serve their country. Politicians serve themselves.
In this case the soldiers were passengers on an airplane (cannon fodder) the politicians as always were self serving bigots who as always appear to lie through their teeth even in the face of logic.
(deny, deny deny)
Luckily you do have an election coming up.
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excellentcatblogger wrote:
Post WW2 the USA usurped all main oil contracts with Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and most of the other Gulf states leaving BP with err North Sea oil and gas.
BP is the largest landowner in the USA (even bigger than the federal government)so dont try and cry exclusion that will not fly.
And while we're on the subject why does everyone decry the oil industry? without it you would be walking everywhere and shivering in the cold darkness.
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Great post Andrew. It is sickening beyond belief that a couple of decades is enough to reduce the slaughter of innocents to a economic bargaining chip
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The Lockerbie bombers release, indeed the events of Lockerbie itself are closely intertwined with the creation of this new global order that we now apparently part of, seemingly since the credit crunch.
When will people see the truth, this is not about the regurgitated conspiracy theories re cia, libya, iran drugs etc. etc., it is/was about the manufacture of a totalitarian one world empire for the next indebted generation to inhabit.
Also, why, when the FBI chief wrote his letter of complaint to Kenny MacAskill which included the quote: "Your action gives comfort to terrorists around the world who now believe that regardless of the quality of the investigation, the conviction by jury after the defendant is given all due process", did none of the regular media outlets point out that there was no jury in this case; especially astonishing given that Robert Mueller 111 claimed to be "familiar with the facts".
I am embarrased to be a human in these pre 2012 days, the majority of others appear to be brainwashed (perhaps via television and suchlike) and unaware of the bigger picture - the frightening reality of our collective children's future.
cheers
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Andrew @ zero
But remember this: Saif Gaddifi, the Libyan dictator's favourite son and a key figure in the bomber's release, has averred that in all commercial contracts for oil and gas with Britain, Megrahi [the now-released bomber] was "Always on the Table"
... in which case I can't, for the life of me, see what the problem was
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No article written about Al Megrahi should ignore the very real and prevalent belief that he was probably innocent of the bombing.
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...Andrew I guess what we all mean is that we are missing the British Broadcasting Corporation.
Do you happen to know where it went?
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Precisely how many intelligent people genuinely believe that Megrahi - surely the best known fall-guy in history - was guilty of anything but being in the wrong place at the wrong time? Cleverer folk than I have pointed fingers at Iran and even more pointedly at Syria, and perhaps with good reason. No mention in your piece about witnesses admitting after the trial that they'd lied about identifying Megrahi; nothing about the break-in at Heathrow and the two additional cases being loaded into the hold of Flight 103; what about the CIA's hired "informer" who conveniently pointed the finger at Megrahi? Little of this can be substantiated, of course, but these are better known "facts" than some of the drivel presented at court.
Interesting as it is to see the FBI's head honcho writing a nasty letter and making it public to boot, I would be fascinated to know the part that the CIA played in funding... I'm sorry, I meant "finding", the two 'witnesses' whose testimony did so much to bang Mr Megrahi up in the first place. One wonders if certain Americans are less annoyed at his release and more concerned that the truth about the conviction, or the securing of it, might leak out. In the unlikely event that Megrahi was ever actually guilty of this hideous crime, his release should serve as some indication that we here in the UK understand the difference between justice and revenge.
We're likely to learn quite soon after his death that he was as innocent as he has always maintained, and how will we all feel then? The guy is dying; why not give him the benefit of the doubt and send him home to spend the time he has left to be with his family? It's more than the bombers ever did for their 270 victims, of course, but we can at least show some scrap of compassion to a guy who will quite soon die a slow and painful death, guilty or not.
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Well Andrew as long as I have known you, you always hit the nail on its head. We have an unelected Prime Minister that ignores the views of the country and has a history of at best half truths for the entire time he has been in government. It is absolutely no surprise to read your list of "possible" behind the scenes tricks and lies.
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I really fear for our political system when we have an unelected minister swan off to Corfu, hobnob with the rich & powerful and suddenly there a U-turns and back handed deals a-plenty. I actually agree with the prisoner's release on a purely humanitarian reason. What I don't agree with is having someone who has been sacked TWICE making laws up as he goes along and particularly laws that only benefit big business regardless or if they are workable, ethical or even legal as in the rules of downloading peer to peer material. Regardless of the fact that the EU has ruled such laws unconstitional, the only way to enforce this so called ruling, note they are careful not to have it as law so that no one can fight it,is to look at every single bit of data being sent which is tantamount to snooping. But then i forgot that new labour want to frog march us into a police state
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Re. our great leader, consider this - if it was a Labour administration in Scotland right now, Brown would have been falling over himself to tell us all how it was the right decision, etc ! Moreover, of course, his involvement in the decision itself would have also been hard to doubt !
For once though he's probably more than glad that the SNP is in charge here ! Still, it sounds like his evasions on the general issue will continue. What is he trying to hide ?
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Please if there is any decency left in the labour party when you hold your party meeting demand an election in October. This appalling situation must not be aloowed to continue. Our soldiers are being killed in Afghanistan and for what, a manifestly corrupt government.
Your party is now an abomination of what it was, your leaders say nothing when a convicted terrorist is freed on humanitarian grounds, and yet have achieved so much in the past, but labour will now be forever associated with Iraq and Afghanistan. This is just so sad and is an insult to the memory of all those who lost their lives, on all sides, in the two Great wars of the last century. It has all been for nothing, who has gained from all the killing, all the pain and suffering, all for nothing!
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Not surprising that Lord M and the Gaddafis move in the same circles.
Just made a polite 'thank you and goodbye' comment over on NR's blog as LK is leaving.
No ref to NR... and it was removed. Amazing, you have to wonder what goes through their minds. Is this really a first world democracy? Libya is probably more moderate than that lot.
And for that reason, I'm out.
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sagamix 19
"But remember this: Saif Gaddifi, the Libyan dictator's favourite son and a key figure in the bomber's release, has averred that in all commercial contracts for oil and gas with Britain, Megrahi [the now-released bomber] was "Always on the Table"
... in which case I can't, for the life of me, see what the problem was"
Saga, as you know very well, the problem is that no-one on the UK Government side has either the guts or the honesty to admit what Saif Gaddafi has said.
Put it a different way, one of the surest signs of Brown and his cronies having generated (yet another) serious news management problem is the sight of you trying to pour a lot of cold water over the story.
Sagamix - busted!
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people think they're being quite "Man of the World" in going for Conspiracy Theories but in truth they haven't got a clue - funnily enough, it's rather naive to believe in that sort of thing - cock up (events dear boy ... events) over conspiracy (they ALL knew but ... ) any and every day of the week
apart from the Munroe death, of course
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28#
I thought I'd seen some savage moderating in my time but that took the cake. I have registered a strong complaint about it... I dunno if you noticed, but not long after Laura's goodbye message went up, all of the entries that had been open for the last week at least were all closed down.
What the devil is going on in that moderation team?
30#
So, are you calling Andrew and his sources liars then Saga?? :-)
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#30 Saga
Whatever happened the whole event has further reinforced the image of GB as being weak and vacillating.
We all say we don't want spin but we do want competence and whilst I dislike the man personally, I always have a sneaking admiration for the way Mandelson handles himself and deals with awkward questions.
GB just does not have the front to handle the top job.
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Is it possible that the released prisoner is not terminally7 ill? Might there be a cure on the horizon? If so, will our Lybian friends share it with us?
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JRP @ 29
what are you doing on here? - this is a non partisan "considered" type of a place - not your sort of thing - any case, that was a (too subtle for my own good) joke about how you can't be both "on a table" in Tripoli AND in a Scottish jail - but ... but but but ... we (you and I) are the scores on the doors viz a vis the Education issue! - you sloped off the other day but I ended up getting a consensus for our programme ... (1) end of tax breaks for private schools, and ... (2) return of Uni grants but ONLY if you've been to a state school - fabulous fusion of radical left and right
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None of this allows Scotland off the hook, they were the ones that released Megrahi. If Salmond thought that this was all planned, then all he had to do is show Scotlands independence and refuse the release of this man. The mere fact that on some kind of religious grounds, which are only known to the Scottish Government, Megrahi was released, is a very poor reason to my mind. This has lowered the standing of Scotland on the World stage. Further it shows very poor judgement by the Scottish Government who should have anticipated Gaddafis reaction to the release.
All this exercise has proved is that devolution is not working and that England and Scotland should go their separate ways. Salmond has never been shy before in refusing anything decided before at Westminister, why did he not refuse this time, could it be that oil interests are close to his heart too.
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sagamix 34
When did you have that particular dream, on a consensus for your schools programme, I mean.
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@ 36 ... well, you weren't there - all agreed now, signed off - you're out on a limb, babe - sorry
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sagamix 34
If that was the aim of your previous post then yes - way too subtle. Don't forget, I am very familiar with your style of blogging!
I spent most of last weekend watching the cricket, but I did indeed see the progress of the education debate. I don't think it's entirely fair to say there was quite that level of agreement, though I was happy with the way some of the points carried through. Obviously I do support the end of tax breaks for the private education sector, and I am with you too on the general principle of a return of student grants.
I'm with you as well on a test of academic respectability (of the university course) being a part of the process of qualification for a grant. But you won't get me agreeing to grants being restricted to students from state schools only! Nor, indeed, would I agree with some sort of formulaic de-grading of the exam results from the private sector compared to the public sector (which you also were arguing for) - those are grossly divisive, social engineering measures, in my view.
Did you re-watch The Ipcress File? If not, then you should - it is a very fine piece of cinema which has stood up very well to the passage of time, in my opinion.
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#17 Rhubarb
Just followed your link to your website - no question of you sitting on the fence then?
#36 Susan
Seriously now that you are with friends - what is all this about not being around for long?
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lockerbie
look, the moment that libya was "forgiven" this would have been part of the deal.... its no shock. however i understand that the death toll was over 100 when the plane crashed. we have people in prison ( rightfully so) who have killed far less people.. yorkshire ripper, ronnie biggs, ian bradey ( is he still alive) the kray twins ( rip) and a long list of others whos "score" is far less than this chap. how on earth can any one justify letting him go..... the truth of the matter is that human life, honesty, decency and morals go right out of the window when in comes to money and trade. i wouldnt mind so much if the prime minster came on tv and said
" we are goning to let the lockerbie bomber free because if we do it means a load of money for the country and more jobs and the we will all be better off and the extra money will help 1000'2 of british kids get medical help etc etc " i would not like it but would live with it..
but they way its done makes it worse... if they really are letting him go due to cancer, then whats the point, if you are a mass murderer do you become better because your ill... whats to stop this chap becoming the next suicide bomber.. after all he is going to die anyway.....
robin hood
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Mr. Neil`s analysis of diplomatic chat raised several questions;The first is whether the deal to free Mr. Megrahi was constructed in London and delivered in Edinburgh;the second is what is Mr. Brown hiding?
Well quite a lot, but not what you think.His apparent evasions are to stop the media and public initiating lines of questioning which could lead to demands for a full-scale enquiry.
The time for disclosure may come, but it is not yet.
It will probably be a signal for war.
This is not conspiracy but realpolitick in an extremely fraught international situation.
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34#
COnsensus??
With who??
Big phonebox was it mate?? I dont remember any consensus!!!! :-)
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sagamix 37
Yes I was signed off but I did follow the debate, I just did not have time to contribute. There was no consensus to my knowledge.
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meninwhitecoats 39
I am on the move, so will be in sagas words signed off for quite some time. Just could not resist a few parting posts. However in the words of that great actor Arnie 'I will be back.'
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Morning all
I still believe that the decision to release on compassionate grounds was the correct one. Do we want a system whereby compassion is shown if you have killed X number of people but not if you have killed X + 1? How many can you kill before compassion is removed? No, sometimes the right decision is the hardest to make and the hardest to swallow.
What is worrying though is the aspect of possible background deal-making over this? To me this is morally unacceptable. This cheapens those lives lost.
I see we have business as usual with the banks. Anything that disrupts their cosy palace is met with the threat of moving abroad. Just exactly what "strings" were attached to the bail out that saved all their sorry bottoms? Nothing to do with bonuses despite the govn promising to act tough.
I had a quiet chuckle yesterday when it was revealed by a teenager on BBC24 that the exams were not easier but that they put more effort in now.
PS. Susan - all the best with your move.
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Good morning each & Andrew.
"And there off..!"
#40 Robin Hood.A number for you to think about...73
That is the number of people that were killed in a plane-bombing perpetrated by people convicted yet given asylum in the USA. But this two were one-time CIA oppos; so that is all right then.
Susan Croft; It was the cooked-up conviction of this man that degraded the standing of Scotland, not his release. The ill informed 'Muellering and pukering' does nothing to conceal that truth.
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Dorset
It is not particularly the decision I objected to but the avoidance of responsibility for the fallout. The SNP's stance seemed fairly principled and they came out to defend their position.
On the banks and bonuses the French have taken the lead on this so there will be penalties for losses as well as bonuses on profits.
What is our problem with adopting a similar stance?
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menin
The problem with profit/loss as an indicator of performance is when it is short-term in nature. I remember in my old job that there was always a clamour to "front-load" projects so that this "profit" appeared sooner thus making the short term look good. Fine when new projects came on stream but if this did not happen then it just meant that the mid-term was rubbish.
I do not know why our govn have just poured money in. The first bail out came with "strings attached". I remember them saying it. However, the only strings were to rebalance their balance sheets which they should have been doing anyway. I have seen no change as a result. No change to the regulatory system, no change to banking operations, no change to bonuses. Oh, the only change is to squeeze more money out of business and savers to pay for their mistakes. It is an insult.
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...I read that a woman has been found that was lost 18 years ago...
There is hope for Old Labour yet?
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Dorset_worzel 45
Oudeis 46
If Megrahi at any point was deemed innocent then his case should have gone to appeal to prove this to be so. I personally have read up on this and although Megrahi was not a main operative there is no doubt in my mind that he is guilty.
Just taking the moral issue for a moment though, on these grounds alone he should not have been released. Firstly because it encourages people to believe we will be soft on terrorism. The people on that plane were not dead when they were descending to their death it has been proved, can you imagine what they went through. Next Myra Hindley for instance was dying of Cancer in prison, should she have been released on compassionate grounds.? Certainly not in my opinion, therefore it sets a precedent for all those who are terminally ill, whatever their crime to be released. You can just see how many prisoners there will be who use this high profile case to get out of prison early.
Putting all this aside the other reason is that it has damaged Scotlands reprutation throughout the World. Sometimes it is not realised by people of this island how much is beamed across the World in news reports. It will not be forgotten that Scotland released this man, for very dubious reasons.
Also do not be fooled Salmond has his eyes on the days when Scotland will be Independent and he was as interested in getting Megrahi released as Brown, oil being the main reason. Its all a smoke screen. You cannot then blame the English for feeling slightly annoyed that yet again we have used by a Scottish PM and the First Minister in their games.
There is also the fact that it was not checked properly that Megrahi will die in 3 months. That really will leave egg on the Scottish Governments face if he does not.
We are very soft on crime in this Country, it is time for the justice system to put the victims first, many of whom have suffered terrible deaths at these hands of these people. Mercy should be reserved for them, no amount of religious nonsense put forward by the Scottish Government will make this release anything but what it was a big mistake.
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Good Morning Andrew,
the freeing by the SNP Justice Minister of the convicted Libyan terrorist is a side show. Please will people concentrate on what has happened in Afghanistan over the election.
It is accepted by everybody that the election is seriously flawed. Now we are getting the spin that actually the result does not matter, it is the fact that elections were actually held. That will be the epitaph to the military career of Dannatt, you managed to save Brown and parliament because an election has been held. The loss of life, on both sides, in the occupation was worth it. I want to see the memoranda of understanding which exists between Afghanistan and the occpying forces.
I know that this may be a bit left field for some of you but the Harlequins affair is proof to me that people will do illegal 'stuff' if they are told to, they will cheat, on the basis that they are following orders. To some the ends will always justify the means, whereas others think that we are a means to an end.
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@ 44
okay Susan, farewell ... this house no longer a home but I will struggle on
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#50
Puting victims first.
I agree.
Alas, the priority is looking competent.
This also is often the systems undoing, as it is here.
Then comes the double standard. 'Be sure to indict only those that cannot muster a defence'.
Stefan Kiscou for one.
You know pwerfectly well that to convict the wrong man is to let the real culpret go free. THAT cannot be right, can it?
It made political sense to convict the Libyan...it makes the same 'sense' to let him go.
The IRA was not seen in the same way in the US as it was here, let us not forget that.
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Ref 44 Susan Croft
Please don't go,I beg you to stay ( can't remember the rest of the song).
Anyway, if you are going to pastures greener,I sincerely wish you well,good health and good luck. You will be missed by a number of punters at this blog and to think,I came SO close to sharing a padded cell with you. I wouldn't say I was unlucky but Lucozade makes me ill??!!
By the time you return,I hope to have won some of my wars.
All the best.
Exxonmobil2
xxxx
PS I am sure you will enjoy Dubai??!!
There no reason why you can't continue to blog from your new pastures,is there?
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Andrew,
I thought that the BBC planners of programmes had their thinking caps on last night. Interesting that they should put on the film about 10 Rillington Place, that is about Christie, who allowed the State to murder Evans. Justice and mercy, the mercy shown to Evans was that they eventually pardoned him and allowed him to be buried in consecrated ground. Ah, justice and mercy, oh nearly forgot the compassion.
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#50
There is no justice for those that have died. Say you know the culprit and you execute them. This does not bring back those that died. Ok, you do not believe in killing them. Let them rot in jail for the rest of their lives. Still does not bring them back. What about the loved ones of the victims? They have been wronged and deserve some justice. But again you will not bring them back. Revenge does not heal the suffering but perpetuates it.
I support our current system. Penalise wrong doing with jail and allow for rehabilitation. In some cases of mental illness this may mean a life time of jail. Be tough but show compassion. After all it is what we expected of them.
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EXXONMOBIL2 54
Oh thank you, that was really nice. Keep that padded cell warm. Look after those shingles
Of course I will blog, I would never allow saga a free run, just not for a while.
Thank you all for you good wishes.
Oudeis do not be cross with me, you know I always say what I think.
XXX
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#57
Susan, it is only politics.
All the best and I hope to hear from you again soon.
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There are some serious questions about Megrahi's health notwithstanding the merits of his appeal.
1.Who was the Dr who stated he had only 3 months to live?
2.What was this doctors field of expertise? Was it Prostrate Cancer?
3.Surely, the Prison Dr will have examined Megrahi?
4.Was the Dr assigned to Megrhai defence team?
5.Was the Dr provided by the Lybian Government?
In essence, just WHO was that Doctor, was it Dr Who?!!
You are absolutly correct Andrew,when you state there is no definite evidence to prove skullduggery by GB/Lord Pinky,i.e. Trade deals but if BP/Shell were to be awarded multi million $ contracts shortly and Megrhai were to survive for 12/24 months, would his release just be a coincidence??!!
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Intrigued that Private Eye suggested this release was going to happen earlier year, so it would have appeared to be on the cards for some time.
I think it was right for the person to be released if he is dying. On the other hand, Macskill looked distinctly queasy, when he was being questioned about why Megrahi could not be put in a hospice for a few months. This came down to cost of 48, yes, 48 policemen! Perhaps, now all the Scottish MPs expenses have been capped or cut? They could have found the money there?
It is possible that the reason why his appeal was withdrawn, was that it was likely to prove 'unsafe' with the new evidence. Doubtless, we could not have the Scottish justice system shown to have put the 'wrong' person in gaol.
It is looks wrong, stinks, and stinks again then it can't be a duck or can it?
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#s 59,60
Three months was the time scale set out in the legeslation, as I understand it.
Ergo...
Let us not attempt to get at the doctor, he too is but a pawn in this game.
48 police was the number for the simple 24/7 coverage. Any additional 'kefuffle' would have meant far more of a police presence.
The point MacAskill made about the disruption to the dieing-days of other residents was well made and compeltely understandable.
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From the BBC - Uefa has charged Arsenal's Eduardo for "deceiving the referee" after he appeared to dive to win a penalty in the Champions League win over Celtic.
Now, how can I put this so that it doesn't get pulled by the moderators again...
Everyone watching the match could see Eduardo's actions for exactly what they were, just like everyone can see the Governments actions in releasing Megrahi for exactly what they are...
Now, does that keep you moderators happy?
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#62 Roger_Ring
"Everyone watching // could..."
"exactly what they were..."
[Ah; the good old 'Clapham Omnibus'.]
The reasonableness of the viewer meets the reasonableness of the player leading to the birth of the truth as seen through the eye of reasonableness of the commentator. Turns upon the reasonableness of the viewer plus the reasonableness of the pl....
What may become known in the future as the...
'Roger Ring of Reasonableness'.
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Today Peter Riddell of the Times calls for a public enquiry.As I suggested in my last blog, this is where all the current questioning leads.
A US airliner carrying American and British citizens was blasted out of the sky in British airspace.
It was an act of war.
The instigator,the conduits and the means are known,and are not what is publicly acknowledged.
Disclosure would accelerate a latent crisis.
Mr.Brown`s silence is the price of leadership, not the cost of weakness.
But then he`s a dour Scot and we would expect no less.
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#64 Brer Blogger.
Putting aside my own 'chirpy' demeanour.
He was released to Libya to cover the dropping of his appeal. It would need a determined effort from the electorate NOT to vote for any of the main partys for a Public Enquiry to commence.
I am all for both.
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#65
P.S.
On re-reading my last post...
I meant to say, "Putting aside the matter of my own etc."
I do still employ it when addressing you. I did not and have not adopted any other demeanour. Thank you.
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This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
Horace Cutler was all right. I met him a couple of times and he was a neighbour of mine, when England was England.
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#68
...was is really that long ago?
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He had wonderful stained glass windows - bit of useless information for you there then.
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#70
Ah, yes FP.
They are those much lead about?
If there is more; on say valted ceilings organ etc. Please remember. Ignorance is bliss. :)
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The very thought that Labour have the ability to oversee a democratic election in Afghanistan is quite preposterous as a starting point. I don't know whether our democracy shames them or vice versa, but clearly allowing the shambolic affair that has been conducted in Afghanistan to stand will only be a lifelong sore on the reputation of the West.
I can't help feeling that it gives the game away, that democracy doesn't assure the people that your leaders aren't totally mired in corruption. How can the loss of any life be justified to put into power someone so corrupt ? If he had the ability to exert some control over the country, or make an improvement, maybe he'd serve a purpose, but his main ability is alleged to be his effort to interefere with the electoral process.
The West IS going to declare is was all okay. It can't do anything else, but that only proves that in democracy, some results aren't open to public determination - but heck, that's how democracy in the West works too.
The public don't require proof or evidence of what Lord Minky and Gordon have been up to, and public enquiries are just set up to muddy the waters. Gordon will get his well justified reward at the next election. Lord Minky will probably switch to the Tories or become UK ambassador to Montenegro.
I'd love to know how much benefit these alleged oil deals that are being proffered in Libya will be to the UK. Will they generate UK jobs ? Will any cent find its way back to the UK ? I very much doubt it.
You've got to admire the Chairman of the FSA. Like a sheepdog that has been found out being led by the sheep, he's rushed round to the front of the flock to try to pretend he's leeding the debate. He deserves a princely salary for such a hilarious 'about face'. BRAVO !
It's easy to see why we don't reward our politicians and bureaucrats. They don't deserve it. I'd vote for Lord Minky. It might at least slow him down a little.
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Andrew,
According to the BBC:"The son of Libyan leader Colonel Gaddafi has insisted no deals were linked to the compassionate release of the convicted Lockerbie bomber."
but only you, and everyone else insist: "But remember this: Saif Gaddifi, the Libyan dictator's favourite son and a key figure in the bomber's release, has averred that "in all commercial contracts for oil and gas with Britain, Megrahi [the now-released bomber] was always on the table." So it's reasonable to assume the ministers had their ears bent."
Is the BBC wrong?
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Goof afternoon Andrew,
apparently Brown is no longer on holiday with his wife and family. Having come back early from holiday to meet the Prime Minister of Israel, he today met the President of Pakistan at Number 10. This is fantastic, he is now therefore going to miss spending his bank holiday (which is a misnomer) with his family. Surely all bank holidays should now be referred to as Public Holidays because calling them bank Holidays is an insult to all those who have lost money through the banking collapse. Will he be attending the funeral of 'Sir' Ted Kennedy or will nobody from Britain be there to represent somebody who showed so much compassion and mercy during the peace process, not forgetting of course MJK.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
When is it acceptable to break the rules. Any rules. We now, for example, see signs on shop windows, 'We prosecute thieves' meaning shoplifters. If you cheat on the field of play, in any way, and that gives you the advantage over your opponents, then could it be said that you are stealing. Consider this. If you lose a match your crowd goes down, and your club loses money. If you lose a cup match then you do not get the prize money. You gain a pecuniary advantage if you win by cheating. If you are a runner and win a race with the prize money then surely that could be seen as fraud. All prize money won whilst you are drug cheat should be repaid.
Is it not the same with the release of the convicted Libyan terrorist. If you gain a pecuniary advantage over your competitors by the release are you not just as guilty as the terrorist, you are making money out of terror.
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This is how the HSE introduced their email ban onme a couple of years ago.No warning, no due process and no appea;l procedure.
Dear Mr Exxonmobil2
You have been copying HSE staff into many messages over the last few weeks.
It is not possible to keep up with the volume of information you transmit
but so far as I can tell none of the messages has been directly relevant to
HSE's regulatory responsibilities or has raised any matter other than those
on which HSE has already closed its investigation.
The volume of eMail traffic is a significant distraction from other
business and damaging our ability to give a good service to other people.
This message is to let you know that as of Monday 19 February HSE's server
will block eMail from you.
If you wish to communicate with HSE about a concern relating to workplace
health and safety covered by the legislation we regulate and which is not
one of the matters on which we have already concluded our investigations
then please send a hard copy note to me at the address below.
Yours sincerely
Max Walker
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#77 eXmO
We have to start somewhere...
I googled this ...devon,dealing with persistent emails
and got this...
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
I googled this...dealing with persistent emails
and got this...
www.broxtowe.gov.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=15023&p=0
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# 76
You're correct T A Griffin (TAG) and it might be possible to justify it if the end result is to the benefit of our country. Of course morally it is indefensible.
The problem is, that we cannot have any certanty that the end of result of these furtive meetings is to the benefit of anyone but the individuals concerned.
The whole Afghan episode has been badly conceived and poorly implemented and, if Karzai is confirmed as leader. it's likely to bring into disrepute the West's whole concept of democracy. I have no doubt there'll be a strong campaign to promote the success of the war and the electoral process, but both will be hard to sell.
The Coalition hasn't driven the Taliban out of any part of Afghanistan. The best they can hope to do is to suppress their operations but the evidence is that they are a long way short of achieving even that.
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Ref 78 Oudies
Thanks Oudeis for the link but unfortunately I couldn't find anything significant ref emails . Broxtowe is a Nottinhamshire Borough Council.
It's amazing to me just how easy it for Local Governments AND the HSE can just close down communications without due process,due cause and any appeal procedures.
As I said before, I did make allegations of wrongdoing by the local authorities but that is no justification to place an email ban.
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A copy of my email to my MP ref substandard road works in Devon. Under normal circumstances I would contact (or should be allowed to) by email but as you know, they have a lifetime email ban on me.
_________________________________________________________________________
Attn Mr Ben Bradshaw
I write to my MP to get your assurances that DCC are designing and constructing New Footpaths in Exeter in accordance with the D.O.T. statutory specifications and regulations. I have reason to believe that a numerous New Footpaths have been built in violation of the DOT & NERSWA Act.
I am sorry to trouble you with such matters and in normal circumstance ,I would contact my local authority by email or on line reporting but as you are aware, BOTH the County and City Council have placed an email ban on me,hence, I am unable to contact them other than by mail which I choose not to do??!!.
A number of new footpaths are being constructed in Exeter WITHOUT Dense Bitumin Base Course (DBBC)which,in my view is a contravention of the Statutory Street Works Act.
From my observations of several streetworks projects in Exeter, I am of the opinion that the quality of the works is substandard. Could this be the reason, why the Devon Road and Footpaths are in a general state of illrepair.
I would be grateful if you would look into this matter for and ask the DCC why they have omitted the DBBC on their current projects.
with thanks
Exxonmobil2
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Good morning each & the well rested Andrew.
My 78,
eXmO, Perhaps it was a little silly of me to track down what some authorities do in this instance, I had hoped that they all would be much-of-a-muchness and some notion of due process and or appeal would emerge. Hey-ho.
I have another link for you that may be of use. [a simple link that should not involve our darling moderators]
But, please read the rules. I did not register so I have not been all through the site; it may just be thee place to aid you though...
http://webcommunities.hse.gov.uk/inovem/inovem.ti/text?page=detailedterms&viewmode=inline
Today is a whole new day.
No time to mention that ex-speaker Martin has hit the dead-stoat trail.
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Mentioning Mick Martin, I found it curious to note that it was reported that both he and John Prescott had intended their offspring to inherit their parliamentary seats.
It is illuminating to discover that Labour MP's have a fondness for hereditary feudal positions in a modern democracy, but not surprising.
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...by the by...
If you are troubled by electotal disfunction
should you reach out for the little pale-blue pill
or administer two-party extreme unction
to deliver independent grist unto the mill
Or is it that you suffer from anemea
and should inject yourself with the stuff that's easy-spilled
perhaps over all it would be more seemlier
to accept that it's Democracy that's been killed
...
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#84...
I only ask because at present Plutocracy's more real
though this appears to have come on us by stealth
what of our much avowed attention unto the common-weal
are we less common now that power depends on wealth
Is it that there's less to do in sessions
that our parliament casts about themselves to justify
to storm and rage to create for us impressions
that in anguish they send forth our young to do-and-die
...
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Ref Oudies 82
Thanks Oudeis but this is a HSE website and they have already placed an email ban on me back in 07,hence, can't see how that site will assist me but thanks anyway.
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Good article from Polly Toynbee in The Guardian, I quote:-
"Cameron in his "general wellbeing index" mood may be sincere in wanting to improve life for the poorest. He may shift programmes that don't work and can axe things that waste money.No doubt he would like to boast that poverty decreased on his watch, while worklessness, educational failure and bad parenting improved. But it won't happen without giving it far more importance than seems possible when cutting national debt is his top priority.
There is no sign that Cameron or his team understand what it takes to make social progress. They should look harder at just how heavy the lifting has been for Labour. He sets himself a dangerously high benchmark if he wants to be judged on how much faster he can improve the lives of the poor. "
Poses the question is delivery more important than dogma?
Also could compassionate conservatism delivery more for the needy than socialist doctrine ?
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I see the dilemma meninwhitecoats.
Labour appear to expect Socialists to vote for them out of nostalgia.
Labour no longer hold the torch for Socialism. It's a confidence trick that Tony began, and since Gordon joined forces with the Archduke Prince Peter, who appears to float the seas on the luxury yachts of the world's financial wheeler dealers, we are rapidly turning into a feudal society where the rich inherit the earth and the poor get buried in it.
I have little faith in the Tories, and I won't be voting for them, but Labour seem to have tried to play the casino with the intent of beating the house. Instead they have become entranced by the allure of what they sought to conquer.
Labour fail on their record alone. I doubt that the Tories could make the rich any richer than Gordon and company have managed. Labour MP's have shown themselves to be no less acquisitive when it comes to personal enrichment.
Labour have arrogantly chosen to avoid populist policies, as if that alone is proof of moral purity. Unfortunately those policies have been both un-populist and lacking any Socialist principle.
If Polly Toynbee supports Socialism - she can't recommend Labour.
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Yes it's a quandry Gomer.
What should do does not and what shouldn't do just might.
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I wouldn't call myself a Socialist, but for anyone who is, they currently don't have a voting option.
Laour are a perversion of Socialism. They've even done more damage than good to the NHS. Having a situation where a hospital gives priority to laundry over patient care because Gordon wants statistics to quote in Parliament is appalling. In another era a Socialist party would have called for a charge of Corporate Manslaughter, but they know who is basically at fault.
Labour have betrayed Socialism and until they divest themselves of the likes of Lord Mandelson they shouldn't ever get near Government again. Unfortunately as they brought him into Government via the Lords, there can never be any cetainty he won't return if Labour ever regain power.
Labour are like Gollum obsessed with his 'precious'. The object they appear unable to do without, is the one thing that poisons their future chances. 'Champagne Socialists' appear to like him, but I doubt there are enough of those about to fill a telephone box, let alone vote Labour into power.
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Good Morning Andrew,
again no Andrew Marr Show. I think that the labour ministers just don't want to have to face any sort of questioning. There is a problem because if labour don't put anybody up then because of political balance the BBC cannot have any other politician, otherwise they would be in breach of their charter.
I hear this morning that the SNP want a referendum on devolution. I say get our retaliation in first. The English must be given the chance to declare independence from the other lot, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. I want my freedom, my independence.
Does nobody else notice how quiet it has all gone on the negotiations over the sale of the European operations of General Motors! I bet that labour are holding on to make an announcement at the party conference.
My worst concern though is that there must be a full parliamentary debate before any more soldiers are committed to Afghanistan. There must also be an urgent public inquiry into the whole continued part we play in the occupation. It is no good for Brown, the Prime Minister, to say ther should be another 50,000 Afghan police and soldiers. What have we been doing in that country since 2001, there were only a very small number of deaths of our soldiers in the first few years. What were we doing, oh yes that's right fighting another war in Iraq, and occpying that country, and finally retreating and exiting in ignominy.
As for Karzai, at least the people have had a chance to vote for or against him, something which has been denied to us since Brown took over as the result of an effective bloodless coup d'etat. Remember, Blair was going to serve for a full term. The question must be asked of Brown, if by any chance labour actually have a majority in the next parliament will he serve a full term, or will he like Wilson resign soon after an election. Remember, also that actually Blair did serve a full term in that he resigned from Parlaiment as soon as he lost the premiership.
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Andrew,
one of the fantastic things about the internet is the access which we have to the international media. I receive on a daily basis the news from Boston via the Boston Globe and this is just an extract from an earlier edition:
'From Brigham Circle to Roxbury Crossing, an army descended on the area around the Basilica of Our Lady of Perpetual Help yesterday to spruce things up for the parade of dignitaries expected to attend Senator Edward M. Kennedy’s funeral today'.
Now I think that we are missing a trick. Maybe the soldiers who are killed and brought back to this country ought to come in to a different destination every time. They ought to be greeted by the Queen or other such high people, the Duke of Edinburgh, Prince Charles and even William and Harry ought to be wheeled out. Oh, forgot, a parade past parliament every time where MPs ought to be forced to share the grief of the loved ones and friends of those who have died for their country, and Karzai's government. I am not insulting their loss, it is just that people must ask why were the soldiers of the Great War not returned to their homeland for burial, because the people would have called in to question the terrible waste, the total abject folly of all the fighting. That is why they did not bring the bodies home, after all they did in the early days until the numbers grew to such an extent that there would have been no work done.
Questions must be asked 'Why Wooton Bassett?' I mean the locals are doing great business from their honouring of the dead. Be fair spread it around a bit, they aren't the only ones to feel the loss of our soldiers. As for Brwon and his visit to 'the front line' maybe others ought to ask why the difference in the tax treatment for American soldiers and ours, give tax relief to our soldiers, no deaths with taxation. These soldiers are dying to keep death off our streets from these terrorists, well pay them and don't tax them.
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I see my postings are STILL being refered to as YOU even though I sign in and out.How strange. What am I doing wrong?
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Further to my comment ref 81 on new footpaths. How many other local authorities are turning a blind eye to this type of scam becasue that's what it is, a SCAM.
No wonder they put an email ban on me ,is there.
What's the betting Bradshaw won't respond??
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So Jack Straw WAS telling porkies about Magahi being released.It IS oil STUPID??!!
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Good morning each & Andrew.
#86 eXmO
[don't he yanks use 86'd to mean they have been cut-out?]
I put that link up in the hope that you could still have an avenue to listen and speak with others who share your concerns. It may be that the direct route is not always the best. I do not know at what level your ban has been implemented but I assume that each of us has more than one e-mail address from which to write.
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#92 TAG
The Americans are saying goodbye to someone they have known for many years.
The tragedy for us is that our goodbyes are to those who have not had the opportunity to be known by many, nor to have learned much about life in the short time fate has alloted them.
Bells could ring nationwide as the fallen pass through W-B. Just an idea.
P.S. eXmo, YOU old eXmO you. You are still eXmO to us.
BTW today is the birthday of your MP. Sore heads all round in the morning?
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90. GomerPyle
Gomer
Is it not time to do away with these old style political labels
like Socialism and Conservatism which just perpetuate the old class struggles and brick bat politics? The world has changed radically over the last few decades. Yes, social injustices still remain, particularly in the lesser developed countries, but in a country like ours those differences and lack of opportunities are not as marked as they were, and there is a far greater awareness and acceptance of what a just society should be.
Pure socialism and old style Conservatism are not compatible with today's society, IMHO. New Labour in theory, in creating a more moderate form of socialism, free market capitalism with a social conscience, was a creditable project...unfortunately it was run by scam artists and warmongers. Those on the left call for the return to proper socialism. Is that what we need in the 21st century?
Why not entrench human and civil rights and aspirations in a constitution or binding declaration that any government has to adhere to and strive for, and do away with all this flag waving and old fashioned rhetoric. Of course coming up with something everyone will sign up to is the challenge, but there are a few good examples around the world that can be used as a starting point...maybe the UK, or the devolved nations (that's another debate) can become the world leader in constitutional reform. I think that is what some of the so-called reformists in the main parties have in mind; whether there is the intellect, the collective will or the ability to put party interests aside is the big question. But if we continue with the status quo, this country will never move forward.
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#90 GomerPyle
Voting options?
What are they? Given that any vote but for the incumbant in many places is ever a wasted vote.
Without a concerted push NOT to vote for the usual suspects we will be back to 'normal'. If only we could get back to square one.
Vote red---no cred
Vote blue---shame on you
Vote yellow---foolish fellow
Vote new---what else to do?
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#98 TheBlameGame
Constitution?
There is nobody involved in party politics today capable of the altruism to bring about a constitution for the UK, designed with the UK in mind.
It would be easier to adopt the US model and debate a best-fit for the UK.
BUT
Debate by who?
Given that we are each happy for the UK to be termed a 'democracy'. For the people by the people etc.
All talk of UK Plc. will have to go.
P.S. Party Cons etc.
GM deals?
National bankrupcy?
There MUST be debate at all of the above with regard to a National Dole.
A system whereby each of us is 'paid' an amount just for being British.
Plus bring the 'black-economy' in from the cold.
Let all who need the odd job done and those who need the work get on with it without the threat to 'benefits' etc.
Today it is plane as a pike-staff that those with wealth can do as THEY please without sanction.
How much is spent on running down the un-feckless just to award them with a far less worthwhile life?
Our democracy is still far too much alligned to monarchies of yesteryear and NOT about "We the people."
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COME OUT YEE MOANERS!!!
What IS to be DONE?
There is no better man/woman than YOU to decide such matters.
Make this your "St Crispians day."
Let those still abed...etc.
BTW WTF is 'IMHO'?
I merely ask. :)
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...are ye frit?
Frit ye are I say!
Yes FRIT!
Are the (in)dependant English frit?
As in...
Pomme frit?
Do you want chips with that?
With my trusty cucumber of conviction and my robust Portobello Mushroom of concience I take the field!
Bring out your dread ye moaners!
Or is it still a job for a Scotsman?
What is a man to do?
You do have all the answers, to think otherwise is to accept that all is lost.
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...proclaim it, Westmoreland, through my host,
That he which hath no stomach to this fight,
Let him depart; his passport shall be made,
And crowns for convoy put into his purse;
We would not die in that man's company
That fears his fellowship to die with us.
This day is call'd the feast of Crispian.
He that outlives this day, and comes safe home,
Will stand a tip-toe when this day is nam'd,
And rouse him at the name of Crispian.
He that shall live this day, and see old age,
Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours,
And say 'To-morrow is Saint Crispian.'
Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars,
And say 'These wounds I had on Crispian's day.'
Old men forget; yet all shall be forgot,
But he'll remember, with advantages,
What feats he did that day. Then shall our names,
Familiar in his mouth as household words-
Harry the King, Bedford and Exeter,
Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester-
Be in their flowing cups freshly rememb'red.
This story shall the good man teach his son;
And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by,
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remembered-
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition;
And gentlemen in England now-a-bed
Shall think themselves accurs'd they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day.
The 25th October, if that helps. :)
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...
Articles I through X are known as the Bill of Rights
Article [I]
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Article [II]
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Article [III]
No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.
Article [IV]
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Article [V]
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Article [VI]
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.
Article [VII]
In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.
Article [VIII]
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
Article [IX]
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Article [X]
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
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100. Oudeis
Yeah there are a couple of sticking points before a new 'constitution' can be considered...
The Monarchy, well you could get HM to sign it and let her say it was her idea I guess...and retain her position as ultimate representative of the people. If politicians fail to abide by the new constitution it's off with their heads!
Seriously, has there ever been a more appropriate or opportune time to radically rethink and restructure our style of government? We all recognise the financial sector needs overhauling, as do immigration and social services. What better time to achieve consensus.
The biggest problem will be the EU. Impossible to do both, be a full member of the EU and have our own constitution. We're either govern ourselves or are governed by Brussels. As it stands now.
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104. Oudeis
Further to my 105 and your 104:
It's getting that balance between what is the state's or government's responsibility and what is the individual and /or private enterprise's responsibility. Who controls what?
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106 TheBlameGame.
Au contrere mon brave. [#103, had things gone awry]
We the peolpe control all through elected representatives under our constitution.
Only in the US do big-business men fear gaol.
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I agree that the usage of old terms is not helpful, but Labour have brought shame on themselves and Socialism. The Nu Labour experiment may have had altruistic aims, but it was too tempting for the exponents to get close to vested interests and then just succumb to the temptations on offer.
When Labour cut its ties to old style Socialism, it also cut away it's morality and ethics. Look at the smugness of those MP's who had grown to believe that their personal acquisition of wealth was what Labour was all about. The elder staesmen wear ermine gowns and get a funny title and wander around looking like grotesque comic characters from a Disney cartoon - more to be pitied than slung in prison.
If Labour had no other purpose, it at least kept Tory excesses in check, but they no longer serve that purpose. If Polly Toynbee believes herself to be the guardian of Socialism, she's hanging her hat on the wrong peg with Labour.
I no longer see Labour as a credible political party. There are so many disasters pending and crucial decisions deferred, such as where our power will come from in ten years time, that it's hard to believe we have a government in charge. Prescott is waffling on about wind turbines when the country is likely to face power cuts for lack of power sources.
As an aside - the current revelations about the NHS are concentrating on the failings of nursing staff. I have suffered at the hands of nurses too, in a very traumatic way, but even so I hold the Doctors, Consultants and Managers at those hospitals responsible. Indeed as far as those hospitals where deaths have been found to be caused by negligence, legal proceedngs for Corporate Manslaughter should follow.
It seem incredible that it is suggested that nurses can behave uncaringly without the knowledge of doctors working among them, and their employers, who if they aren't aware of what their employees are doing, are doubly at fault.
My own personal belief is that the concentration on targets and performance puts intolerable pressure on nurses, and they are carrying the can for those who get paid the 'big bucks' to take responsibility.
If nurses are responsible for everything, then get rid of the administrators who appear to be responsble for nothing, other than handing impressive but meaningless statistics to Gordon.
I'll be sending a brief outline of my experience to the Patients Association, and a website will be set up where a more accurate patient view of the NHS in my area can be viewed. Others should do the same to counter Gordon's propaganda.
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107. Oudeis wrote:
We the peolpe control all through elected representatives under our constitution.
=
In theory.
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108. GomerPyle
"As an aside" etc.
=
Agreed. One of the boils that needs lancing is the culture of ducking responsibility. Starts from the very top and works all the way down to the very bottom.
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#109
Do I take it then that...
"Practice makes perfect." ???
When power lodges with those at the bottom then blame can be accepted by all.
It is this pyramid of procrastination that you wish to see continue that damns us all to pass the buck around and around. Eyes ever upward in silent plaint to our betters for them to show us how wealth can be beautiful.
There but for the gracefulness shown by our betters go I and other lesser mortals?
Those that feed on crumbs forever keen in anguish and aspire to be fed on crusts.
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BTW
Thanks for the mention of 'Plutocracy' is due to one of you. Thank you.
The only difference between 'peasant' and 'pheasant' is that although they both afford great sport only one is edible.
"Time for tea."
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Now we hear that Labour gave away our EC budget rebate and the promise to make fundamental changs has been broken while our budget payments will be rocketing in the next few years.
Of course, our economy has outpaced everyone else's under Labour stewardship - [sarcasm].
Again the Labour Government appear to go weak at the knees (and soft in the head) in the presence of the EC (as with banks) and are more likely to come back from negotiations minus their underpants than with any benefit to us.
In all honesty I don't feel that Labour possess the necessary ability to govern. It's like trying to play Bridge with a partner who persistently gives away all your best cards. The only trumps they play are when they make a decision stupider than the last one.
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Well I'm sorry, but
If it walks like a duck, eats like a duck, flys like a duck, and quacks like a duck...what other species can it be?
Macavity knows he will be destroyed further by any other revelations, but it won't take much more to release some of the "secret" documents sent from Brown to the Scottish Government.
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Good Evening Andrew,
I hear that Jack Straw is arranging for all the papers in respect of the release of the convicted Libyan terrorist to be published. Will this be like the papers published after the outbreak of WWI where all the major European governments published all the correspondence which led up to the eventual declarations of war.
As for the Scots they are saying apparently that they have received a letter from Nelson mandela congratulating them. May I humbly point out that Nelson Mandela was a convicted terrorist himself and that it always is a difficult to differentiate between a terrorist and a freedom fighter. Alkso when does a local policeman become a collaborator. When is it justified to kill a collaborator, who would be known in that wonderful country Norway as a Quisling.
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Guido Fawkes' latest posting had me checking if it wasn't April 1st.
The subject: Gordon’s latest book 'Wartime Courage', Stories of Extraordinary Courage by Ordinary People in World War Two.
This coinciding with a GB photo op in Afghanistan. Cra-azy stuff.
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Andrew,
it gets worse. Apparently Sarah Brown was invited to attend the funeral of 'Sir' Edward Kennedy. Now was her husband our Prime Minister also not invited? If we are to beleive the press then Cameron was meant to be going to Afghanistan, so Brown may have had to go there so as to prevent Cameron getting any publicity. Why did Brown not go the funeral of Kennedy. Why exactly did he go to Afghanistan? When will there be a parliamentary debate before any more British soldiers are committed to Afghanistan! Rather than see the coffins let's see the injured British soldiers, how are they coming home, in the same planes as the coffins, how are they being transported? There must be an inquiry as to why two Chinooks have recently been blown up! How much has gone up in smoke! I think that it is obvious why there is a shortage of 'copters, look at what happened to HMS Courageous at the outbreak of WWII, how much did that waste, don't send the equipment, we can't afford it1 Finally, exactly where is Bob Ainsworth, he was on our screens and in our faces and now he seems to have disappeared, Stalin is alive and well and on all our screens, Trotsky disapearred from all Soviet pictures, when will Brown be deleted, as though he never existed.
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...ah yes grass-hopper you touch upon truth there.
It is all to do with the deck chairs.
But, shhh, lest people take their eyes from the ship. Floundering suits them. Talk of deck chairs will only confuse matters.
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So the Glorious Leader has now latched himself to Obama's exit strategy bandwagon of training more recruits in the Afghan national Army as the solution for more manpower. These politicians clearly have no idea what is happening on the ground.
This video clip shows the problem the US military trainers have:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMwBwVYdUvE
The title is "The Hashish Army Afghanistan" pretty much says it all. They estimate that 80 percent of the current Afghan force are perpetually stoned out of their minds.
If politicians continue with the lies through the internet they will be found out. Obama's reputation is already taking a hard knock, Brown's is so deep in the mire as to be almost indistinguishable.
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Ref 96 Oudies
Thanks for that Oudeis,I will give it a try.
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Good morning each & Andrew.
#119 excellentcatblogger
Within the video I did note that the Afghan 'commander' used much the same script as GB, "...I hope that things get better...we need the foreign troops to stay longer..."
'Stay longer' does not compare well with the fact that Afghans must remain there. I doubt that the promise of two weeks in Florida would motivate them, even if you could get them to return to the fight.
If, given the monetary input, this 'caste' system is the norm at the top it is hard to see how the exorations of the US troops (or our troops) could hope to motivate the lowly Afghan to fight and die.
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I note that Lord Pinky's "friend" has opened an office in Lybia ie Brown Llyod James (BLJ)
and the disgraced former BP CEO Lord Browne had secret meeting with Gaddafi only a couple of years ago.
Did the former BP/CEO keep his Title after his skuldduggery a couple of years back??!!
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...Well, well, well. Who'd-a-thunkit?
My pleas for independents to be elected in droves throughout the land has so far fallen upon deaf ears and then there's Japan.
Those due to take-up posts in the new government of Japan have never tasted power before; their party has not been in power since the seventies and they cannot all be aged men/women.
"Can we do it?"
"YES we can!"
The world of politics and democracy seems daily more and more like the world of cricket.
'We' take it around the world only for to be shamed by the ability of mere beginners to break the mould.
[spelling intentional on 'mould']
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Please the following link to see how the Chad Oil Wealth has affected local people.
http://www.irinnews.org/Report.aspx?ReportId=85894
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Good Morning Andrew,
I have recently become a friend of my local MP on Facebook and looked at his profile. It is Ben Bradshaw by the way. What I notice is that in his relationship he shows himself as being 'married'. May I point out that a civil partnership is not a marriage, therefore how can people who are not married regard themselves as being 'married'. Have I missed something, or could anybody else tell me how anybody in a civil partnership can be described as 'married'.
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Gordon has been very free with his condolences for the relatives of Edward Kennedy and those of the soldiers who have perished in Afghanistan, and also the relatives of those who died in the Lockerbie air crash.
What about condolences for the relatives of the patients who died through neglect and poor care at Mid Staffs Hospital ?
I've read a lengthy article from the NY Times about the readiness of the Afghan army and police, and it makes worrying reading. They are supplied with ammunition which is sub-standard and likely to fail. Soldiers sell or give their equipment away to relatives. The soldiers are as likely to fight each other at the opposition. The police have a tendency to corruption and I won't repeat some of their practices.
"On patrols observed by The Times this year, many Afghan soldiers wore their equipment, remained alert, walked with weapons ready and moved by bounds across dangerous ground. These are not difficult tasks, but on patrols in past years Afghans often neglected them."
Is this the fighting force that Gordon wants to take on the Taliban who have frustrated two of the best trained and equipped armies of the Western world ?
With our economy in a mess, we ae now committed to increased defence spending and providing massive economic economic and military aid to Afghanistand and Pakistan. Gordon can't afford for our involvement Afghanistan to end in failure, but we could just never afford it at all.
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The following minutes are from an all party meeting in June 07 in an attempt to resolve the Exeter PFI school issues which Ben Bradshaw also attended.
The strange thing is that NO FURTHER minutes or documentation has been published since that original meeting.
This meeting was a complete waste of taxpayers money because at that date the Project Agreement (PA) was a "GHOST DOCUMENT" and I understand is STILL not available.
As the minutes will show, there were some SERIOUS issues with the PFI schools.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Meeting
St James' School, Exeter
Friday 8 June 2007
MINUTES
Present
Graham Farley - Modern Schools Exeter Ltd and Carillion
John Ryan - Carillion
Steve Brunswick - Carillion
David Hazelton - Carillion
Mark Perry - St Peter's
Chris Buckingham - St Peter's
Heather Morgan - St Peter's
Rick Jolley - West Exe
Peter Scott - West Exe
Terry Hammond - St Luke's
Mandi Street - Isca
Ali Moxey - Isca
Matthew Macan - Isca
Helen Salmon - St James'
Ray Beale - Devon County Council
Steve Eastland - Devon County Council
Greg Caldock - Devon County Council
Hannah Elcocks - Devon County Council
Dave Hutchings - Devon County Council
Councillor Brian Greenslade
Ben Bradshaw MP
Apologies - Chris Burwell – Chair of Governors, St Luke’s
Sarah Bennett – Acting Head, Wynstream
ACTION
1 Welcome and IntroductionsRB welcomed those present and introductions were made. He clarified that regular meetings between Devon County Council (DCC) and schools took place, realising that everyone had become extremely frustrated regarding the heating and ventilation issues. Health, Safety & Wellbeing were giving the greatest cause for concern in this regard and communications had been received from parents showing similar worries. All conversations which had taken place with governors and teachers had been constructive. RB explained that the process had started in 2004, with this being Wynstream's third summer of problems. Numerous meetings had taken place with SPV and CIS with promises of action. SPV and CIS had received the Exeter University Report which had been commissioned by DCC, although no formal response had been received from SPV, CIS or Carillion regarding this report. RB realised the frustration engendered by their inability to return with a resolution. He told the meeting that it was for those with contractual obligations to sort out the problem.RB introduced Graham Farley who outlined SPV's plans for resolution.
2 Plans and ResolutionsGF assured the meeting that SPV and Carillion were committed to the long term project and had common aims with DCC and the Schools in building a successful, long term partnership. They were understanding and everyone involved would be listened to. He said there were demonstrable signs of progress and that everyone had been working very hard, managing people's (and the Express & Echo's) expectations. He explained that both SPV and Carillion recognised that there were six contracts in one and that they needed to address each school's problems individually. GF told the meeting that he felt a lot of progress had been made since the beginning of the year with opening windows and roof vents. SB told the meeting that he had been with Carillion for 19 years and had been involved in major areas. He explained that the original design had been in compliance with BB87, requiring natural vents as the way forward and as being the major principle. It had not been possible for only mechanical vents to be used and all schools had a mixture of both natural and mechanical.
ACTION
SB explained to the meeting what was allowable under BB87 as 'hot' temperature and the conventional meaning of 'overheating'. School – internal air temperature exceeds 28°C for 80 hours per term. This is what the design bases on windows open, blinds closed. It is reliant on the external temperature to cool the internal temperature – if it is hot outside, internally will be 2 - 3°C higher. SB told the meeting that they had supplied a thermal model which had been checked by the independent certifier and approved. Since then they had taken on board the concerns of some plant not operating correctly and BMS not working correctly. They had increased window openings, which was the prime recommendation from the Exeter University report, and had introduced procedures on how rooms should be monitored and used to maximise the natural ventilation. They had also identified areas of the most recent complaints and had started thermal modelling which would be available in the next few weeks. SB said that Carillion were being proactive but their response was that they were not finding temperatures above 28°C.RB responded to SB's statement by saying that the statistics were factually incorrect. He stated that their solutions continually seemed to be more modelling and that this was not resolving the problem. He told SB that what was required of this meeting was an outcome which would produce resolutions.GF stated that the contract requirements had been met and the design was in accordance with BB87. They were challenging whether it was a natural standard. 38 schools were naturally ventilated and all Innisfree schools had been designed to BB87, which might not be an acceptable standard to the schools but a temperature limit of 28°C was the basis of that design.SE told GF that the single line from BB87 Overall Guidelines shows how to reduce overall high temperature. Exeter University stated that there was a problem and academic dialogue was needed with the University. SB said there would be modelling again of the complaint areas over the next few weeks so they can sit down with Exeter University (Exeter University model was based on BB101). SE stated that the University also drew conclusions to BB87 and the principal calculations apply to both.GF said that, in light of investigations, if the independent reports show that things are wrong then corrections would be made according to the contract. If schools accept the report there would still be a problem with the schools which would require rectifying under contract.
ACTION
HM told GF that it was not only the temperature which was causing a problem but the air quality also. She asked GF for how long CIS had had the reports and asked why no response to them had been given. She also asked why, if CIS had their own report, there had been no response. GF replied that SPV had received the report on 18 January and had no record of a prior receipt. MM explained that problems had started with Mowlem. They had raised the problem with Mowlem in 2004 and DCC had continued to raise issues regarding the amount of glass and the aspect which Mowlem (or SPV) had ignored. The problem whether the temperature was 28.5 or 27.5 was not the most important issue, ventilation was the most vital issue and had been on the table since the design stage, with Mowlem having contributed almost nothing. They produced one report after the building was two thirds built which showed that the building would overheat, then nothing. The school also produced reports to show the overheating problem. Nothing was heard from Mowlem, who built without knowing what they were doing. MM believed that this should prove to DCC and schools that the contract had been breached and trust had broken down. The engineers knew there were problems and that it came down to who would pay. The problem had been ongoing for 3 years and now there was no trust. He said that every architect would say that the building would overheat. GF agreed that the problems had been going on for a long time and said that Carillion had inherited the contract through the takeover of Mowlem and that problems were taking a long time to resolve. He explained that they were trying to determine, under the terms of the contract, if there was a problem and that they had offered to talk to schools individually regarding the contractual aspects.MM said that the problem was finding a solution and technical people were needed on both sides to find a common solution. The liability for payment should be determined later. He stated that CIS were not accepting the problem. GF denied this, saying they were accepting it.RB asked GF if they could put solutions on the table. BB asked if there were similar problems in the 39 other schools and GF said there weren't. BB asked GF if he agreed that there were problems in Exeter. JR told the meeting that a Leeds school are looking to change from BB87 and that Manchester do not accept it either. BB asked for reiteration that there were no problems in 38 schools and asked whether DCC agreed with CIS that the schools high temperatures had not exceeded 80 hours. RB said they did not agree. JR said the Helpdesk had only received one occurrence of temperatures above 28°C.
ACTION
MM told JR that Wynstream had reached 29°C at 9.00 am in February. JR asked whether the school had phoned the Helpdesk. HM asked JR if they accepted there was a problem with the heating and ventilation or whether they would accept it as a problem. She told JR that if they did not accept there was a problem she would ask the children to advocate but unless it could be proved contractually then they were wasting time.GF said he accepted that there were schools that had problems. He explained that they had a Helpdesk and that information from complaints comes from there. He reiterated that they were addressing issues with opening windows, closing blinds and roof ventilation. MP suggested that the Helpdesk was a 'joke', rather like the PFI project. He said the Helpdesk either passed it on and signed it off or passed the buck and somebody just signs off the Helpdesk. JR told MP that temperatures received from the Helpdesk were recorded by them with a calibrated thermometer and only once were temperatures found which exceeded 28°C.JR told the meeting that the independent consultant appointed by Carillion had not found a problem with the modelling and that they were standing by the design. GF was to identify, by school, problem areas and go back to Adas to remodel those rooms, and DSSR were to remodel rooms and the results would take about two weeks, which he hoped would identify any problems.MM asked JR if they would share the information, suggesting that arguments about technical differences should take place with technical people and only then work out how and who pays. He said that this hadn't been done before and CIS had not brought technical people to previous meetings. RB asked if this would be shared with DCC when the report was received and JR confirmed this. SB also agreed and the information would be shared with DCC and Exeter University. TH said it was good that the problem was being acknowledged although the climate this year had helped to keep temperatures down. JR said that last year July was worse. GF said that the only schools in the South West were in Exeter, further north the temperatures were cooler which may be a factor. TH said that St Luke's was the first secondary last year to have a very difficult time in the summer and explained his frustration that this year, other than a few improvements, it was still the same. With the windows open, they either blow close or damage blinds. Will have hot weather soon. He explained that the big issue was the air quality and told JR that it was important that they acknowledged the problem and provide short term solutions.
ACTION
JR said they were happy with the short term solutions and temporary barrier arrangement to allow this to happen.HS told JR that in a few weeks' time an Ofsted inspection would be taking place and that she had received an email from an excellent teacher in Room 24 recording a temperature of 25°C, and that these comments were not unique. She said that action was needed now rather than later.RJ said that learning was suffering and this would be proved in this year's tests, after being incremental over the past 8 years. He said that behaviour had worsened and sickness was 3 times worse and that professional associations were putting on pressure. He explained that one of the teachers was 6 months pregnant and having to teach in a room with no opening windows. The Helpdesk closed jobs as a CRB problem – did Carillion want the schools to pay? Regarding opening windows, teachers would do this but the blinds don't have opening poles. Temperatures have been reported at over 28°C. He suggested that Carillion were not recognising the suffering.MP told the meeting that even though there was agreement of the solutions to problems SPV refused to agree to action work and that there had been a wait of months. He said that the Managing Director of SPV would not sign anything off. MP also said that some magnesium which had been burning in the science lab created a fog which would not clear and this had set off the fire alarms. He asked SPV to explain what was wrong.RB intervened, saying that sufficient examples had been given. He asked what action would be taken with immediate effect and also asked for confirmation that action would be taken.DH said that meetings would take place on an individual basis next week to resolve issues and there would be meetings with DCC. RJ said this would help, as long as it was not a delaying tactic.GF apologised for what had happened before but said it had taken longer than expected to get to the bottom of the problems. He said that SPV were prepared to work individually with schools.BG told GF that when they had taken over the contract they had to take it 'warts and all'. He said the biggest concern was with the 34 hot days left of the summer term and what would be done to alleviate the problem, stating that improving ventilation would solve some. He asked GF what would be done immediately to sort out the problems.
ACTION
BB said that during the meeting in February with the CIS Corporate Affairs Board it had been discussed that whatever action would be taken and who would pay would be decided later.MS said assurances had been received that the music room that had no natural light would have a solution by Easter but that nothing had happened.CB said he had been going to ask for a commitment that the schools would be sorted by 8 September, whatever the cost. MM suggested that the technical people were being held back until the contractual issues had been sorted. He suggested that the combined brains of DCC and CIS should be able to sort the problem without resorting to modelling and that steps should be taken now and payment arranged later. BG told MM that he was happy to agree to DCC having technical people available.MM asked whether Harmony could be brought in to sort the problem out now and asked if they would be here in September with the monitoring. SB asked if they would commit to getting the monitoring done now. MM asked if there would be a step-in or ACO and then a decision. RB confirmed that this was the practice with SPV and there was a local blockage. He asked the meeting to consider what had been agreed.CB asked what schools could tell the parents. RB suggested: 'An agreement has been made with the Council Leader and the SPV board and the matter will be resolved by September. Within the next 34 days remedial or step-in action will be taken'. BG asked Carillion to respond within 2 weeks and RB suggested the end of next week. GF agreed to this. JR confirmed they were happy to open up ground floor windows.JR suggested there were temporary barriers. MM asked that the work be done and the costs sorted out later. JR said that in the music rooms noise might be a problem. GF suggested that the facts were underlined school by school.RB told the meeting that work would be started on Monday (18 June) and the following week meetings would be taking place. MP said the meetings should start next week (11 June) and temporary solutions should be in place within a fortnight. Long term solutions should be in place by September.
ACTION
DH said they couldn't commit to have the long term solutions in place by September as that depended on what was required. MP asked that commitment be given that 2 weeks from today the temporary work would be done. HM said the simple things should be done now. JR said they aimed to have the temporary solutions in place and would need to get people on site which may delay things. GF agreed to the commitment to have meetings next week and temporary solutions in place by the end of the following week.SE asked whether DCC could commit resources. RB said that communications needed to be improved and a communications strategy would be in place on Monday. HM felt it was very important that GF had said sorry today.
EXETER PFI SCHOOLS
DEFECTS
Friday 8 June 2007
1 MP gave two examples of problems at St Peter's:
2 x ICT rooms had been 'mis-built' and this can't be progressed at all. Another room is 50 : 50/75 : 25 split and is outside contract which the SPV won't accept. They are one whole room down which is a DfES issue.
There is ponding on the tarmac – the drain placed 90m away uphill.
2 or 3 fences need to be moved.
He feels the problem belongs to the MD of SPV.
2 RJ outlined problems at West Exe:
Snags – Maths rooms on individual keys which are not grouped by suite but they cannot get them changed.
Signage on doors is inadequate and is a fire risk.
Closed down far too readily and work not done.
ACOs – Feels these are a 'nightmare' and that silly money is being quoted, eg the tented structures. Also feels these are being blocked at local level.
FF&E – Haven't been supplied within spec and have spent £17,000 to rectify and then had complaints from SPV about installation.
3 MS detailed some of the problems at Isca:
Snags – The music room has no natural light and there is one with no opening windows.
A lovely building but what is happening with the ongoing problems?
The back gate goes into the wood and the path goes into the fence – this needs resolution.
No air conditioning in the multi gym.
Signage.
Feels that the plot has been lost and asks whose defects list is definitive.
JR said everything was consolidated in January. AM told JR that this list had many items missing and that she had given the list to JB many times. JR agreed that this needed discussion. MS told JR that the signage was now looking tatty and that response times were appalling. She asked about the fence around the wooded area and mentioned the 'disappearing' ACOs with SPV.
FF&E – MS reiterated what RJ had said and confirmed that some items were still missing.
4 HS reported on some problems at St James':
Problems with keys and signage.
Dust in the technology areas.
Water quality and blue water – who does this issue belong to? JR told HS there was a protocol in place at St Peter's and this would also be suitable for St James'.
5 TH outlined the situation at St Luke's:
He agreed that some emergency short term solutions had happened and that the pitches had been sorted out in time. Regarding the recurrence of fleas, there had been good communication and the situation was resolved very well, which showed that this can happen and a lot of it is about trust.
Tech rooms – there are concerns about dust levels.
All the schools have lots to offer; the quality of catering is excellent, as is caretaking and he feels that the good aspects are supressed.
There are problems in the multi gym, having no air conditioning it cannot be used in the summer.
There is a little vandalism and the cost to put this right is high. Toilet seats are £57 and water fountains £180 (replacement £10). Need mechanism to cost effectively.
A big problem with poor air quality.
6 RB spoke on behalf of Wynstream:
There was a problem with the Atrium balustrade.
Also heath and safety issues.
RB said the HSE were mindful that the schools were not up to standard but that so far they had been kept at bay. There would be a HSE meeting taking place on Tuesday. He also said the Trade Unions had been very supportive and they should be formally kept informed; also, a student parliament has taken place and they have been very mature about the situation.
DH said that a very high profile meeting gave a joint message.
HM believed that the PFI would only work if a partnership was developed based on trust. She felt that the long communication line caused problems and that this needed to be shortened. There should be a local business of trust and she was fed up with people not doing as they said they would, also of the duplicity and rudeness on site. She said this must be sorted out because it wouldn't work without a trustworthy partnership and she felt there was a major systemic problem.
RJ told HM that there were systems in place which did not work.
RB, thanked the support of SE, HE and GC, he said DCC had the information which would be brought up in the afternoon’s meeting with Carillion / SPV. He felt that some headway seemed to have been made and that there was a need to meet again early in the autumn.
MP said there should be a commitment to unblock the local blockage. GF told him that the local blockage reported directly to him and therefore it was fixable. DH said that joint communication would be sorted out in the afternoon and the Express & Echo should be informed that 'there will be joint communication'. HM asked whether schools could see the communications beforehand. GF wished to make no immediate comment to the TV or Press waiting outside.
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Ref my 127
I am grateful to the MODS for printing the Minutes to the Meetings dated June 07 ref the PFI problems and perusal of the minutes will show just how pathetic the current situation is with the schools.
Ben Bradshaw (BB)is on record as saying "sort out the problems and we will discuss remit/payment later"??!!
This meeting should NOT have taken place because the Project Agreement (PA) was not available at that meeting,hence, it was NOT known what was required or even approved at design phase.
What is also VERY disconcerting is that NO FURTHER minutes of remedial works has been published.
I can also inform the readers that the minutes are just the tip of the iceburgh with the PFI schools problems and the SERIOUS issues have not been identified as yet.
The situation at the schools remain unchanged and it would appear that NO ONE cares.
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...
#125 TAG
Did he (BB) have the 'drop-down' option of 'other'? Is he simply telling the young-bucks of the west-country to back off?
#126 GomerPyle, #128 eXmO.
The question might more correctly be...
"Just when does a governing party begin to 'free-wheel'?
GB & BB are but, in the imortal words of Bernard Levin, "here today and gone tomorrow", politicians.
Brown can say he will do this that and the other and have us to blame if we do not grant him the opportunity so to do.
Likewise BB. What benefit would it be to a 'new' incumbant in Exeter to complain of the inherited mess?
And, if it is too late for them how far behind them are we?
Prosecutions? Enquiries? Committees? Quangos?
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Andrew,
I am trying to work out what the Brown government will say when the Queen makes her speech to parliament in the fall. What words will Brown put into her mouth, 'My government will...' only there must be an election before June next year, must there not? What on earth can be achieved during the life time of this most appalling parliament.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The Guardian yet again provides a useful insight into the current state of NuLab. Jackie Ashley offers:-
"Voters know that argument and dissent are signs of life – and as long as the arguments are serious and creative, people respond. Once, Labour seemed in danger of falling apart. Then it learned discipline. But it learned silence and discretion too. Just now, it sounds like the silence of the graveyard. Let's remember the value of the shockers – and have a little more noise on the left."
With exception of Harman's recent foray, when was the last time a labour cabinet minister or back bencher put forward a positive thought?
Whilst I have not got much time for Dan Hannan at least he provoked discussion on the NHS and Osborne has at least been putting forward proposals about the finance sector.
Have Labours free thinkers been gagged or is everyone too busy defending their positions, however flawed?
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119. excellentcatblogger wrote:
The title is "The Hashish Army Afghanistan" pretty much says it all. They estimate that 80 percent of the current Afghan force are perpetually stoned out of their minds.
=
That figures - I saw a clip from one of Ross Kemp's Afghanistan docs where the local 'army' were tagging along with a UK platoon. They were in an open courtyard when they suddenly came under fire. Our boys hit the ground while the one of the local blokes just stood there as the rounds came in. They returned fire and all went quiet. When they showed the slo-mo back you could see a round crack the wall just behind this bloke. He was laughing...basically said it was fate, if the bullet had his name on it etc. But it was clear that he did not have all his faculties about him. Even with training I don't think they would stand a chance against the Taliban.
***
127. EXXONMOBIL2
Thanks for that insight Exxon.
Makes you wonder in how many councils across the country similar meetings raising similar issues are taking place.
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The fundamental question is - why can't Gordon sell democracy to the Afghans ?
Could it be that he's attempting to establish the same style of plutocracy there that he's encouraged to flourish back home ? The result's the same. No one's very interested apart from the vested interests.
Gordon's version of democracy is as unnacceptable to Afghans as it is to the British.
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#134 GomerPyle
I agree, somewhat, with what you say.
Both Great Britain and Afghanistan are age-old Plutocracies with as much need of Democracy as an extra hole in the head.
Which leads me to wonder what assurances we will get that our next election will be free and fair?
I shall have to look out for press releases from our Electoral Zealots.
"Nice and E.Z. does it every time..."
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...me and my big mouth...
While voting recently I was mightily aggrieved [yet another personal failing-ho hum] this wise...
I proffered my voting card, the list was searched AND THEN I was asked to confirm my name. I thought this a little odd...as the name etc. was there on the card. "My boss has told us to.." A floating voting clerk seen to it that I got my voting slip. But still; I thought; given that I (we) do not need to take the card in the first place...?
But now there is this...
Changes brought about by the Political Parties and Elections Act
In July 2009, the Political Parties and Elections Act became law. The Act introduces a move from a system of household registration to a system of individual electoral registration in Great Britain.
Registration is the bedrock of the democratic process, and it’s important that electoral registers are as complete and accurate as possible – so everyone who is entitled to vote can, and no one is on the register who shouldn’t be.
We have been calling for this change for several years but such a major change can’t be done overnight. For it to be implemented in a way that puts the voter first will mean making sure people are aware of the change and what it means for them and providing comprehensive planning and support for electoral registration officers.
From 2011 onwards, we will report annually to Parliament on the progress of the voluntary collection of personal identifiers - National Insurance number, signature and date of birth - from electors, to make sure that the conditions are appropriate before any move to compulsory provision of identifiers. We will be working closely with those who maintain registers and run elections across the UK to increase the number of eligible people on the electoral register and to support the successful introduction of individual electoral registration.
Public consultation is on-going until November 1st.
This line caught my eye...
"For it to be implemented in a way that puts the voter first will mean making sure people are aware of the change and what it means for them..."
I am fairly sure that it does not mean 'ego' by stealth.
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134. GomerPyle
Gordon's version of democracy is as unnacceptable to Afghans as it is to the British.
=
I think Gordon should start dressing the part, like the Afro-Islamic chic look that Gaddafi wears so well. Stick a few medals on his chest, The VC (Sir Victor Cross), the George (Bush) Cross, etc.. wear some designer shades, and declare martial law.
A survey puts the UK at number 5 in the world's top electronic surveillance police states so why not do away with the pretence?
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When I worked in a bank, it was understood that as pressure was increased to achieve targets, corners would be cut and procedures not followed, because the rewards were so tempting and the penalties so great. It was realised that allowing the system to be shortcut and abused would have a major negative impact on the company's performance and reputation, though the figures may indicate that it is performing to a spectacular degree.
Numerous safeguards and double checks were put in place to ensure that targets weren't achieved by dubious means. The easiest check was to ask the consumer, and it was accepted in the culture, that the organisation had to know how and where it was failing, so that it could improve. It is blatantly obvious that the NHS has been pumped full of money with the sole purpose of producing improved figures with little oversight to doublecheck whether or not those figures represent a true improvement and whether or not they have been achieved at the expense of patient care.
The compelling evidence, from recent events, strongly indicates that the system is left to self regulate and that it is palpably incapable of the task.
The current complaints procedure in the NHS is a joke and hospitals only accept compliments. They have little or no interest in the opinion of patients, and until attitudes change, the NHS will continue to underperform.
I believe I must be the only kidney cancer patient in the UK refused access to an oncologist. Why ? - I don't know, and the Consultant wouldn't even tell me what organs he'd removed. I hope Leicester is unique, but I worry that it isn't.
Three months after my urgent referral, I received a standard letter advising me that I may wait up to another 6 months for my operation, but in the statistics, no such waiting list exists.
If Gordon hasn't got the NHS functioning properly, then he has utterly failed in everything he's done.
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Gomer:
Sorry to hear of your predicament and I sincerely hope things improve. Makes a lot of the statements about the NHS by the great and the good sound quite hollow, does it not?
Speaking of which... no change over at our erstwhile Political editors blog. Normal service has been resumed, ie nothing until the Golum finds his way out of hiding in his bunker and into the HoC lobby...
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Ref 133 The blamegame.
Yes indeedy Theblameame but rather more worrying is how many council are doing absolutely nothing about such matters.
The minutes to the meeting which I posted in 127 is proof the local authority in my area are clueless with regards to Project Management.
They have now go on record admitting they have spent 340 million pounds of taxpayers money on these 6 schools WITHOUT the mandatory Electronic Records which will be V interesting to see how the FOI cope with.
I would like to see a similar investigation by the Telegarph into local authorities expenses,salaries etc.
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I only mentioned my own experience because I think the NHS has developed its own little cosey coccoon in which it exists without criticism. I'm glad to see that this is being chipped away as more stories of what happens in some hospitals, are coming out.
People should be made aware simply because I thought the NHS would take care of me, but it was as if I had jumped out of the window of a blazing building and the firemen were drinking tea watching (no offence intended to firemen by this analogy).
From what I read it appears that some hospitals in the UK do provide an excellent service, but it is a mistake to believe that all do.
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A very good morning to each & Andrew.
K...........n
...........a.....c...
....k.....
...e.........r......e...
..........d
There; Iv'e published all relevant letters.
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Good Morning Andrew,
I was listening to the Radio 4 Today programme this morning I could swear that I heard that Gordon Brown is now back from his holiday and has returned to Downing Street. This I think is a mistake. For national security reasons we should not know where the PM is, we should never be told where he is going to hold any meetings, and for the same reason he must remain hidden from public gaze. Other commenteers have said he should look like the great Colonel Gaddaffi, who is definitely not a meglomaniac who thinks that the British Secret Service wanted to assassinate him. Who heads a country which supplied arms to the IRA insurgents, who Gordon Brown wrote to saying please don't greet that convicted Libyan terrorist as a returning hero, which was ignored. Sorry stream of conscientness , now where was I.
That's right Brown has returned to Downing Street to take over running the country, which he was always doing anyway, so who was it that I saw greeting the PM of Israel, who did I see in Afghanistan whilst his missus was at the funeral of 'Sir' Ted Kennedy, who was actually running the country so well in his absence, was it Darling, Mandelson, Straw or somebody else whose name escapes me. No, welcome back Brown, why no reference to the outbreak of WWII, and the sympathy for all the dead resulting from our declaration of war against Germany, and we did nothing for Poland. We should have attacked Germany in conjunction with the French, only we didn't, and we know what happened next, we were defeated and retreated with our tails between our legs, oops sorry, that was Iraq wasn't it. Same as what will happen eventually in Afghanistan.
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DAFUR CRISIS
According to the outgoing UN General, the Dafur Crisis is over. I have never heard so much BULL--- in my life and I am sure the millions of refugees would agree with me the Crisis is FAR from Over.
If the crisis in Dafur is now over, the UN Troops can be flown straight to Afghanistan to support the troops there, can they? as it's not too far as the crow flys.
The DAFUR crisis is FAR from over and the despot Deby, whom,is using European Taxapayes Money via the Oil Revenues to purcahse AK47 and helicoptor gunships will ensure the crisis doesn't end because the CRISIS is fueled by Oil.
Now why would the UN make such a STUPID comment??!!
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141. GomerPyle
Have you tried the Health Service Ombudsman?
http://www.adrnow.org.uk/go/SubPage_31.html
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#144
As I quoted on the 27th the UN commander reported that only one problem remained in Darfur.
This problem concerns the...
Justice & Equality Movement.
"It's the same the whole world over it's the rich what gets the pleasure and the poor what gets the blame..."
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#144
Now please stop being so terribly negative. The crisis in Dafur is over, get a life, because I am told the crisis is over by the experts, therefore it is over. The economic recovery is soon going to be in full swing, the crisis is over there as well. As for the bankers, well let's restrict there bonuses, let's have claw back!
We have the MoD giving false information throughtout the summer recess, they have been economical with the truth, they have been contributing to global warming with their computer system, people have been led up the garden path with regard to their holidays, sorry again Andrew, I was having another stream of conscientness! I was of course talking about the MoD Met Office here in Exeter.
No Dafur is over is over because it isn't on the PMs agenda, he is much too busy not commenting on the freeing of the convicted Libyan terrorists, how to talk about everything but one of the most appalling acts of appeasement since the last act of appeasement. I will finish by saying that we ought to rebrand the MoD as the Ministry for War and Subsequent Occupations, it is not defence, it is aggression. How many Afghanis have been killed in the last month, how many Iraqis have been killed, no Dafur is no longer in crisis. It is like Fawlty Towers, 'don't mention the wars'.
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#147 TAG
If we continue to misunderstand the thinking of our dear leader might we be members of the...
Que?-que?-que?
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Ref 147 TAD
Nice one Taggy and your right about the Fawlty Towers.
Which reminds me I must chase up the EU Ombudsman as he is looking into my allegations of fraud at the EIB ref the Chad/Cameroon Pipeline.
I must have been a cook in my last life cause have SO many pans on the boil at the same time??!!
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139. Fubar_Saunders
Speaking of which... no change over at our erstwhile Political editors blog. Normal service has been resumed, ie nothing until the Golum finds his way out of hiding in his bunker and into the HoC lobby...
=
Not sure why he has to wait, Ed Balls is around. Saw him on BBC Breakfast with the DJ and 'drum & bass artist Goldie, who is supporting and appearing in the new social workers campaign.
Guess who was the more intelligible... clue, not the one in the suit.
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150#
Guido's pulled a gem of a quote from Ed Balls from the archives, from when he was Gordon's SpAD....
"Ed Balls said in 1991 that…
“The allure of a minimum wage is deceptive and should be resisted … Fostering a high wage, high skill economy is the only way to reverse Britain’s relative economic decline and to generate the resources to eradicate poverty. But the minimum wage is not the answer. If anything the minimum wage will make it even harder to achieve these ends.”
Bit like "a weak pound is a sign of a weak economy which is the sign of a weak government" and "no more boom and bust"!! Quotes they'd rather forget...
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I appreciate your advice TheBlameGame but I think that the Health Service Ombudsman consider that if you survived the experience, you have no complaint.
I am a very placid and calm person, which is why I feel personally aggrieved to have been treated with such attogant comtempt. I'm also no fool, and feel outrage that others with less knowledge than myself could allow themselves to be fobbed off and accept sub-standard treatment.
I have written to the Head of Leicester and Rutland NHS and don't expect any reply, but I'll become a nagging conscience to highlight their failings, when justified. As it is clear that other areas suffer the same poor service I'll also make contact with other groups to see if joint pressure will ensure that failing areas get exposed and aren't allowed to hide behind very dubious self-prepared statistics.
They are answerable to us, and we aren't so easily satisfied as a Government determined to use them as propaganda.
"Gordon Brown calls for faster international action to clamp down on bank bonuses"
Is there an echo ? Did Gordon fall into a deep sleep ? Has he heard an expression including the words 'stable door' and 'horse has bolted'. If Gordon is so seriously out of date on current events can someone inform him urgently about the recession.
Perhaps he should refer to Sarkhozy who went ahead without him, though I know that Labour's natural European first port of call is that highly revered figure - Berlusconi.
Gordon has become a caricature of bumbling tomfoolery, and David only has to sit still in a chair and look at his watch to gain power at the next election, which is not good for democracy. There's nothing Labour could do in the coming months to redeem themselves in my eyes, and I doubt in many others.
Gordon's legacy ? Destroying the economy and losing a war is good going for someone who has been in charge for such a short period (and don't forget omitting to put 10p in the electricity meter on the way out). The US Secretary of State for Defence looked like a man defeated when he appeared on TV last night. I heard someone mention that more civilian personnel were needed. Do I need to mention what the faults are in that master plan ?
The looming crisis over our energy needs makes it likely we'll have a lot in common with Afghanistan once our power stations have become obsolete and closed. John Prescott thinks a wind turbine or two will do the job. Putting him in charge of comedy has always been one of Labour's jolly japes, but once the reality dawns, it only highlights that we have no plan on how to cope without power. Even 'no see in the dark' light bulbs need some power.
David's best tactic now will be to start listing the messes he's going to have to clear up. It'll be a long list.
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Andrew,
I want to know from Brown now exactly what he will do with the state pension when the changes are announced to the Retail Prices Index in October. Increases to all benefits are based on the October, we need to know what he will do if RPI is still negative or will just give a very small rise. we know that prices increase disproportionally for pensioners. Also if the change goes through to limit the wages of bankers what effect will that have when pensions are based on wage rises rather than the RPI. The change to linking pensions to wages must not be allowed to go forward. I can see for myself when prices rise. I don't trust the statisticians to be honest when it comes to the hidden rises in wages, how can I trust any government information.
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It is reported that Lord Jay has written to party leaders about future recommendations for peerages. I think he should have been blunt and stated he wants no more idlers, spongers, crooks and fraudsters.
The House of Lords must be on SOCa's daily hitlist, and a peerage is likely to attract unwelcome attention as to what you did to get it.
If it hadn't been sullied by those involved I'd be happy for its continuance, but it's been betrayed by its own members and supporters. It should represent the peak of virtue and morality in the land. By all means retain them as the ex MP equivalent of Chelsea Pensioners, to show people around Parliament, but few qualify for high office.
Perhaps the Lords themselves could reject some of the less appropriate choices, which might improve their chances of survival. I doubt they will, so their long term fate is sealed.
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#152 GomerPyle.
To add blue to red is not certain to yield us a 'purple-patch'.
To feel that we are wedded to either blue or red leaves us in the position of a battered bride.
In that we leave one for another of similar bent. Our only recourse, you posit, is to return to our lawful spouse.
The sooner we (the people) realise that there are plenty more fish in the sea the sooner we can take responsibility for our own actions and begin to profit by them.
We do not need people with 'answers' rather we need people with the same QUESTIONS as we have.
Vot early, vote often, vote Independent!
This way the political establishment can live with the same fear as we do. That to be side-lined would be a step up from being roundly ignored and exploited.
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154#
Something along similar lines came up the other day as well Gomer; Remember Labour's pathological aversion to the olde hereditary peers, most of whom were old Tories... hasnt there been comments recently by at least two former New Labour ministers saying they want their offspring to go into parliament and be contenders for their seats when they stand down, the illustrious former Deputy Prime Minister and former speaker Martin being amongst them? The most hardened, embattled class warriors of all of them? Seeking to create their own hereditary political dynasties?
Perish the thought eh?
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Andrew,
talking of murky waters! may I please show what Brown has chosen to quote from the great words of that wonderful dead American 'Sir' Edward (Ted) Kennedy. Now remember Brown was invited to the funeral but chose to go to Afghanistan instead, but his wife, the wonderful Sarah Brown, represented Britain instead. These are the words of Kennedy which Brown selected:
“It is the glory and the greatness of our tradition,’’ he said then, ‘‘to speak for those who have no voice, to remember those who are forgotten, to respond to the frustrations and fulfill the aspirations of all Americans seeking a better life in a better land.” He said: ‘‘The dream shall never die.’’ Now that was part of the speech which Kennedy gave to Democratic convention when he decided that it really would not be a good idea to stand as a presidential candidate. The contents of the speech inspired our Gordon, and are a wonderful example of simple rhetoric, but to me all I could think of was Mary Jo Kopechne who was left in murky waters. Maybe 'all Americans seeking a better life in a better land' were those who fought and died in Iraq, who are now part of the force of occupation in Afghanistan.
The conservatives must force a debate in parliament before we send one more soldier to Afghanistan, and that includes the reinforcements who mustbe sent to replace all those who have been killed and seriously injured for the 'democracy' which is Afghanistan, with their soldiers in barracks and a fatally flawed 'President' who loke Brown lacks any legitimacy in the country.
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#157 TAG
As with Teddy so with Jack.
"Do not ask 'what can your country do for you' but rather 'what can you do for your country'"
What, other than a space on a map, is any country?
For those in the USA they CAN speak in terms of their constitution.
But for us...? We have no such thing that we can take pride in, uphold and defend.
We once had 'values' that have long since gone out the window.
Some may envisage their nations worth resides in the personna of a monarch. Not for them the freedom to forge a better future for the people and themselves rather it is their 'duty' to support the Babel stairway of enoblement.
I saw a strawberry grower on the tv last night whose words of wisdom were...
It is easier to sell bad-fruit when the sun shines that to sell good-fruit when the sky is overcast.
This might explain why the Tories are such a shoo-in at the next election.
Have confidence in the harvest, I say, and shun bad-fruit whatever the weather.
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158. Oudeis
New election slogan: Things can only get fruitier...?
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I think that peerages should be awarded based on the following categories (like in a flower show)
All round overall gold medal for the biggest expenses claim.
Most inventive expenses claim.
Most amusing expenses claim.
The 'never paid tax - never will pay tax award'. Currently held jointly.
The 'I've been slung out of Westminster so many times, only the Lords will have me' special Award for finding the perfect way to thwart the democratic process.
The 'Unemployment Award' for having the most members of the family on the payroll.
Whatever purpose the Lords is intended to serve, it is now merely another way for MP's and their ilk to milk the system.
I won't be voting Labour or Conservative, so I certainly agree that we only encourage our politicians to be stupid by limiting ourselves to two parties who have consistently shown themselves to be incompetent self-serving fools. A title currently held with distinction by Gordon and his bunch.
Gordon's going to expose his correspondence ? Aaaah how sweet.
Show us Lord Minky's correspondence instead.
Gordon is behaving with all the sophistication of a child whose credibilty was spent long ago. Gordon, we don't believe anything you say. Stop humiliating yourself by showing you know that.
Tell us about your father again Gordon. In infants school we used to be read stories that evoked those memories of a bygone age. I still don't believe you, but I enjoy a good story.
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Lockerbie bomber row: Details of Blair-Gaddafi meetings will not be published
So-says the Guardian headline.
Miracle of miracles...meetings and conversations where one side retains 'all' the information?
"This is a job for...DC Comics."
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Andrew,
when Brown holds his next press conference and is asked questions the first question I want asked is 'did you or did you not say that you did not want the convicted Libyan terrorist to die in prison'. If he says that all these questions have been answered in the documents released today then may I suggest that the press just stand up and walk out because there would be no point in continuing with the press conference. What is the opinion of Brown, he must say something! The conservatives must resign there seats en masse because this is a travesty of a parliament, it is so over, please put us out of our misery.
Oh and why did the Libyan convicted terrorist drop his appeal. Because unless he did he would never be freed on grounds of compassion and mercy!
When will Brown make any announcement on the outbreak of WWII, it was after all the British, which includes Scotland, declare war on germany, and a lot of good it did the Poles. Just like belgium in the Great War.
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BOARD OF GOVERNORS (BOG)FAILING DUTY OF CARE ON EXETER PFI SCHOOLS.
If my allegations ref the 6 Exeter PFI schools are correct, to which I hold no doubt whatsoever, then SURELY the Board of Governors have failed their duty of care to the individuals schools?!
It is also V interesting that no one single PFI school BOG has raised the issues during their periodical meetings.
Incidently, the Tory MP wannabe sits on one of the BOG's(excuse the pun)hence, she is WELL aware of the PFI irregularities.
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The Government is launching a campaign - 'The Age of Stupid'
Say no more.
We're going to be cutting greenhouse emissions - led by figureheads in society who are likely the most conspicuous emitters.
It just about sums up this government. Hypocrisy is fine as long as it has a funky tune and celebrity faces. Gordon is doing a fine job in reducing greenhouse gases, just by crushing the economy. Without the required power stations climate warming will be a blessing.
Gordon wants to unite us in something he hasn't already turned into a disaster. He still has time.
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#163
with regard to the Exeter PFI schools I think a tremendous opportunity was lost. Where are the wind generators, this is after all the windy SW. Where are the Solar panels, this is meant to be a sunny place, if you believe the Met Office that is. I regard these schools as being in the most unsustainable buildings. A great opportunity was lost, and there really oiught to be a public inquiry into how these schools were built and paid for.
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Ref 165 TA Griffin
You are correct Taggy about the lost opportunities for the Exeter PFI schools ref wind turbins,solar etc but those issues are secondary in my view, I am more worried about the health and safety issues of the schools and the fact they have been built in the absence of any Project Agreement.
As you are aware, out Tory wannabe MP has been investigating the PFI schools but for the life of me, I can't understand why she is taking so long. Maybe she has put an email ban on me as well.
From an environmental view point the schools are a DISASTER because the Local Authority chose not to use electronic record management database systems,hence, all the records for the PFI schools are hard copy ONLY and god only know how many trees that is.
Your right about the public inquiry, how to we go about getting one??!!
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FURTHER PROOF THE CHAD /CAMEROON PIPELINE IS A BOONDOOGLE.
Chad: Escaping from the Oil Trap
Nairobi/Brussels, 26 August 2009: If the Chadian government wants to avoid further impoverishment and destabilisation of the country, it must reform its management of oil revenues.
Chad: Escaping from the Oil Trap,* the latest briefing from the International Crisis Group, examines the exploitation of oil revenues. Since 2003 they have contributed greatly to the deterioration of governance in Chad and to a succession of rebellions and political crises. The regime uses the revenues as a means to reward its cronies, co-opt members of the political class, and acquire the military means enabling it to reject genuine political negotiations. This has further limited space for the political opposition and civil society and helped keep the country in a state of political paralysis, stoking the antagonism between regime and opponents.
“There is recurrent political instability that is likely to undermine efforts to use oil for the benefit of the country”, says James Yellin, Crisis Group’s Central Africa Project Director. “For the people who have not seen their lives improve and who are subjected to increased corruption, oil is far from being a blessing”.
The increase in petroleum prices in 2007 provided the Déby regime with sufficient resources to undertake large public works projects. Advertised as a policy to modernise the country through petroleum revenues, these projects led in 2008 to a deep and structural budget deficit that is likely to persist over the long term. Moreover, the opaque awarding of public works contracts increased cronyism and corruption.
To escape this vicious circle and create the conditions needed for durable stability, the government must work to establish a national consensus on the management of oil revenues. Stronger control and oversight over the oil revenues management mechanism should be put in place in order to address the plague of political patronage and favouritism. The emphasis given to military solutions for the resolution of political problems must stop. The political dialogue which started in 2007 should help create this national consensus, with the political opposition, civil society and representatives of Chad’s oil-producing regions.
“The hope aroused by the discovery of petroleum has given way to generalised disenchantment”, says Daniela Kroslak, Crisis Group’s Africa Program Deputy Director. “The principal external partners of Chad – France, the United States and China – need to condition their support for the regime to the creation of a national consensus on the management of oil revenues”.
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Gordon grabs at greenhouse gasses when everything else has gone belly up. Not a pleasant thought.
Celebrity agents must go down a check list
Celebrity Come Dancing - No
Celebrity Big Brother - No
I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here - No
Who Do You Think You Are - No (note to Gordon and Lord Minky - you qualify)
Otherwise they must get exposure fronting another Gordo Campaign.
When I first saw all the 'celebs' standing next to the polystyrene figure '10' I though they were advertising the Tory lead, but it's bigger than that, isn't it ? Perhaps it's a forecast of how many seats they'll win at the next election.
Gordon would be great as leader of the WI (no disrespect to the WI intended).
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IRREFUTABLE EVIDNCE THE CHAD /CAMEROON PIPELINE (CCP) IS ILLEGAL
Anyone wishing to read more on the Chad Cameroon pipeline please go to this website and the IAG are the main oversight authority reporting to the World bank on the CCP.
This IAG report June 09 confirm the CCP is operating in a legal void para 108 page 10 ref the absence of any recognised or approved oil spill plans.
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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127 Exxon2
Still only random acces to the net so not much from me.
Those minutes must have , even if in a perverse way, been so satisfying as they prove everything you have been saying abot PFI and DCC.
Keep up the good work .
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Copy of email sent to David Cameron today ref the Chad/Cameroon Pipeline Pending Catastrophe
Attn David Cameron.Leader of the Conservative Party
Dear Mr Cameron
In all probability, you will become Prime Minister of the UK within the next 12 months and I fear one of your first jobs will be to investigate a CATASTROPHE on the Chad/Cameroon Pipeline (CCP) the size of which mankind has not yet seen but in the region of tenfold the Exxonvaldeez Incident .
I wish to draw you attention to irrefutable evidence that the CCP has been operating in a legal void for nearly 7 years with the full knowledge of the DFID,World Bank,European Investment Bank the Britsh Government AND the Shadow Government and others. In particular, I refer to para 108 page 10 of the latest IAG report dated June 09,which, confirms the pipeline is DEVOID of any oil spill plans. The IAG report is available at the International Advisory Group (IAG)at the World Bank website. I can forward you a copy of the IAG report if you wish.
I urge you as a future Prime Minister to act NOW and avert this pending catastrophe by seeking a safety and environmental audit into the CCP. As you are also aware,UK&EU Taxpayers money is being diverted to purchase illegal weapons by President Deby with the Oil Revenues.
As you are aware, I have spoken at length with your Prospective MP for Exeter on this matter and other issues but quite frankly, I don't think she is taking them or me seriously.
I look forward to your response.
with thanks
best regards
Exxonmobil2
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Ref 170XTunbridge
Yes indeedy XT and those minutes are just the tip of the iceburgh. There are some SERIOUS issues with these schools and I won't rest until I am proven wrong.
No wonder the DCC don't want to email me and no wonder they are reluctant to cough-up the FOI requests.
Sorry you have problems with the net and we all do from time to time and it's so annoying.
best regards
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This is an extract from a minor oil spill on the Chad/Cameroon Pipeline and 30 months later there are STILL no oil spill plans on the pipeline.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oil Spill at Chad-Cameroon Pipeline’s Offshore Terminal
On Monday, January 15, 2007 at three o’clock in the morning, a leak occurred at the offshore terminal of the Chad-Cameroon oil pipeline, in the Atlantic Ocean off the coast of Kribi. According to the information distributed by COTCO (Cameroon Oil Transportation Company) on Thursday January 18, the leak was discovered at 7:00am, when the morning light revealed the visual evidence. It was contained by 11:00am the same day. The amount of oil released into the ocean was negligible, according to statements from Mr. Lesage, General Director of COTCO, as was any impact “visible or invisible on the environment”. The wind and the waves had essentially carried the crude oil out to sea, sparing the coastline of Kribi.
Interviewed during the course of the week, some local fishermen claimed to have seen traces of fuel oil off the coast of Kribi, and at the mouth of the Lokoundjé river.
Whatever the exact nature and scope of the catastrophe, its management raises at least three questions that are cause for anxiety:
1. Communication Failures
Communications of COTCO were particularly weak, and those of the government were totally non-existent. This is particularly disturbing for a project with so many risks:
· The first official communiqué about the disaster came from the consortium’s headquarters in Douala on Thursday, January 18, four days after the start of the incident.
· Traditional authorities in villages near the Kribi terminal were never formally contacted by COTCO until January 20th, eight days after the incident. The uncertainty resulting from COTCO’s long silence gave rise to numerous fears and rumors, many of which still persist.
· To this day, the Pipeline Steering and Management Committee (PSMC, representing the Cameroonian government in the project) has not made a single public communication on the subject.
2. Technical Failures
Occurring at three o’clock on a Monday morning, the incident was not detected until 7:00am when daylight arrived. But during the pipeline’s construction, there was much referral to the use of technological means for detecting leaks. What went wrong?
3. The response to this small leak does not bode well for our capacity to manage a major catastrophe.
As long as the pipeline is up and running, the communities who make their homes along its path must live with the risk of an oil spill. An emergency plan in case of oil spills was put in place by the consortium, acknowledging the possibility of such an incident. It was supposed to be preceded by a national plan, which was never adopted.
4. Implication of the Administration and Local Communities
In spite of the existence of a capacity-reinforcement program (CAPECE) meant to raise the level of the Cameroonian administration in monitoring oil pipeline operations, this crisis shows the incompetence of the Pipeline Steering and Monitoring Committee to make independent information available on somewhat sensitive subjects. In addition, the absence of a national emergency plan in case of an oil spill has doubtless served to limit the responsibility taken by the administration and local communities in the monitoring of this incident.
Faced with these failures, we demand:
1. Of COTCO:
a. Bring to light all information on the causes, nature, and scope of the incident, and make this information public.
b. Organize a public meeting at Kribi in the very near future so that the information can be widely distributed to the people and authorities in the area where the incident occurred.
2. Of the Government of Cameroon:
a. Rapid adoption of a national emergency plan in case of an oil spill. This plan, which was supposed to be adopted before operation of the pipeline even began, has been delayed for reasons unknown. The absence of a plan worsens the peril constantly weighing on the people and the environment near the pipeline in and around Kribi. The Pipeline Steering and Monitoring Committee should develop and release to the public a timeline for the plan’s adoption.
b. Make available, in conjunction with COTCO, 24-hour telephone hotlines that citizens can call for information in case of future incidents.
3. Of the World Bank
Proceed with a rapid and independent evaluation of the management of this incident, taking lessons for the future. This evaluation should allow space for public debate on the capacity of existing measures to face possible oil disasters in the future.
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162
The reasons why your question is hard for Mr.Brown to answer is covered by 64,perhaps you will look at it before replying.The press conference today raises issues for opposition as well as government.
It seems to me Mr.Cameron is not thinking politically,or not thinking at all.
The destruction of Pan Am 103 in British air space was an act of war.
Any response by Mr.Brown relating to Mr.Al Megrahi`s release would lead to further questions and a demand for an enquiry as shown by Mr.Cameron in today`s`Times`and by Peter Riddell last week.
The instigators,the channels and the means of attack are known;the probability is they are not what is publicly acknowledged.
Mr.Cameron has intelligence briefings,he knows that oil for Megrahi is the back story.The real story would be a signal for war, and an enquiry could reveal it.
So what is Mr.Cameron`s strategy given he is a few months from power?I find it hard to believe it is opportunism when the stakes are so high.
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Put simply - the reason that this topic is explosive for the government is that we have soldiers fighting and dying in Afghanistan, who we are told are fighting against terrorists that are a fundamental threat to our country's existence.
Forgive me if I put this starkly, but Gordon cannot ask soldiers to lay down their lives for a cause which he appears so easily able to forgive, irrespective of whether or not it is a matter of compassion.
For whom does he have most compassion ?
Did Gordon understand that this decision would torpedo his policy in Afghanistan ?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
A copy ofmy letter sent to the EU Ombudsman
_________________________________________________________________________
To the European Ombudsman Mr P Nikioros Diamandouros
Dear Sir
Sub:Complaint ref 1017/2009/ELB-18-5-09
In your letter ref subject title you informed me you held remit to investigate my claims of fraud and theft of EU Public Funds related to the Chad/Cameroon Pipeline. Despite a number of follow-ups by me I have heard no more from your office.
I would remind you that your remit is to investigate complaints regarding maladministration by institutions and bodies of the EU and to my knowledge the EIB comes under such remit.
I would also like to remind the EU Ombudsman that the EIB are on record giving me false and misleading information about the Chad/Cameroon Pipeline.In particular, they informed me they could not investigate my claims of fraud and theft of public funds because they did NOT fund the CCP?!
No person applying a right and proper mind could make such a statement because the EIB loaned approx 145million euro to the CCP.
The EIB have closed down correspondence with me and ignore my letters and emails.
There is sufficeint prima facie grounds for the EU Ombudsman to open an inquiry into the conduct of the EIB related to the Chad Cameroon Pipeline.
I also draw your attention to the latest IAG report on the CCP dated June 09 para 108 page 10 which clearly state the CCP has been operating without any Oil Spill Plans for 7 years.
As EU Ombudsman,I am sure you are aware of the EIB Polices and Procedures for Environmental protection is a prerequsite for any EIB loans and the IAG report clearly and consistently highlights numerous breaches. In essence, the CCP is a Safety and Environmental Timebomb and I wish to advise the EU Ombudsman that any future catastrophe on the CCP will be attributed to your office for your consistent procrasternations and failures to investigate my allegations.
In the first instance, I want you to ask the EIB why they lied to me about their loans to the CCP and in the second instance,I wish your to launch an immediate inquiry into why EU funds are being diverted to purchase ARMS by the Chad Government.
With thanks
Exxonmobil2
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Good morning each & Andrew.
#175 GomerPyle.
Typical, is it not.
After years of being told that there is a global war on terror and many many deaths down the line. We are then reminded of how flimsy the curtain of concern is. Democracy at work though it certainly is. The act of changing horses in mid stream is part and parcel of the democratic process. "Events dear boy events."
Forgive? Perhaps more 'act in haste repent at leisure'. Plus the fact that 'we' don't do revenge, which is still a good thing; terrorists or no.
His compassion? I know you know this, is for his party and himself.
The fact that this compassionate act has led to any talk of torpedoing our 'anti-terrorism' thrust is the same political shenanigans on which political life depends and thrives upon and comes mostly from disatisfied parties in the US.
The rhetoric surrounding the fighting and dying far far away goes on; it was never up to much and little has changed.
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Good Morning Andrew,
in all this speculation about the freeing by the Scots of the convicted Libyan terrorist does nobody else find it strange that Straw at first did not release Ronnie Biggs on grounds of compassion and then changed his mind. Is Ronnie Biggs still alive, because I thought his death was also imminent. If I was the convicted Libyan terrorist then I would now be afraid, very afraid, every time that somebody gives me a life saving injection! I think that the release of Biggs was a dry run for the subsequent events. Of course nobody wants anybody to die in prison, but at least be open and honest about it. And consistent.
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...P.S.
The most important aspect of this particular conviction and release is...
No jury convicted THIS man.
The establishment got somebody imprisoned the establishment freed that same somebody.
HAD there been a jury THEN this talk of 'where is the justice?' etc. would mean something.
BUT without a jury...there was never any justice to get worked-up about.
How?
As that late great commentator on life would have put it, Tommy Cooper. If he were asked 'How could this come about?'
"Just like that!"
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Andrew,
when will the correspondence be published between England and America. I refer to England because from what is happening there is nothing left of the United Kingdom. The United Kingdom is no more. It is a dead Kingdom, or should it for reasons of exactness be referred to as a Queendom. The Queen has been the monarch whilst we have given away our Empire, she might as well finish the job, go and be Queen of Scotland, or Germany, but please it is time to abdicate and give us our Republic.
Our soldiers sign up to defend their Queen and country, they take an oath of allegiance. Look where it has got them, on the killing plains of Afghanistan.
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For confirmation the EIB DID INDEED fund the Chad/Cameroon Pipeline please go to this site
http://www.eib.europa.eu/projects/news/chad-cameroon-oil-pipeline.htm
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#181
You are of course correct. Some say that Mandela has praised this release, please remember as Paxman pointed out last night that Mandela is a 'friend' of Gaddaffi. In the meantime as I have said before Mandela is also a convicted terrorist. When exactly is terror justified, do the ends justify the means?
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Andrew,
drop everything. I have just heard on the BBC that Brown is going to speak at 11 am. Peace in our time, at last the great one will actually speak. Hope that he remembers to name the dead soldiers who have given their lives in the war against terror and to keep the streets of England safe from terror. Watch out when he uses the term 'this country' or identifies the difference between England and Scotland. Of course nobody wants anybody to die in prison, some of us don't want anybody to die anywhere, but in the meantime how many Afghans have died, and for what?
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The mistake Gordon has made, which is disastrous, is that he believes he can take his country to war and pursue an independent or contrary policy at the same time.
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#184 TAG.
When exactly is terror justified, do the ends justify the means?
Where ever and whenever justice is denied sombody best do something.
Yes, there is a whale of a gap between 'law' and 'justice'. This is not altogether a product of feudalism but it does have something to do with contol.
The peasants are revolting, ever.
You will be aware of the tactic involved in detecting culprets...
That of...'the usual suspects'.
Who has a history of;
- orchestrating coups-de-tat [I cannot be bothered finding the correct spellinh here, 'tat' though is of duel use]
-of funding anti-government feelling and stirring-up unrest.
-of assassinating (or trying to)foriegn heads of state.
-dealing in drugs to buy arms.
-refusing to recognise elected governments.
The answer is not quite 'us'. As yet.
Shall we go back to discussing 'good-bombs vs bad-bombs'?
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Chad Cameroon Pipeline.
Before such countries as Chad/Cameroon can secure World Bank/EIB/EXIM loans they must demonstrate they can and will recognize environmental polices/procedures and standards and there are numerous International Conventions which are legally binding,e.g.
1.Lome Convention
2.Cotonou Agreement
3.Nancy Pelosi Agreement
Items 1&2 are EU agreements which cover loans to African Countries and #3 is the US Agreement championed by US Senator Nancy Pelosi.
There are also polices are procedures for environmental protection from the funding authorties,i.e.World Bank/EIB/EXIM/DFID/USAID and others.
Hence, it begs the questions HOW and WHY the Chad/Cameroon Pipeline (CCP) has operated within a legal void for 7years now and is expected to continue in the same manner for another 30 years.
With SO MANY environmental ringfences in place ,it beggars belief the CCP has been commissioned and operated WITHOUT any Oil Spill Plans or Environmental Management Plans (EMP)for the last 7 years.
Who is policing the policeman??!!
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~187
who was it that was involved in 'the Opium Wars', who had the war of Jenkin's ear, who twice declared war on Germany. Which country actually executed their King. Which country buries their dead where they fell so that they did not have the inconvenience of bringing the bodies of the dead soldiers home. Which country, contrary to the foreign secretary's comments does not have a written constitution, which leader has never had to face an election after taking over after overthrowing the previous leader who was going to serve a full term, a coup d'etat by any other name, and who appoints people to the House of Lords when they have previously been forced from office due to somethings which shall not be named.
Who was chancellor who funded what many regarded as an illegal war, and subsequent occupation, who took over and finally retreated ignominiously after the government threw him out, which happened in Iraq abnd will happen in Afghanistan. Finally, which government has silenced a member of my family from speaking in public by use of a court order on the grounds of breach of contract, rather than the official secrets act because they couldn't do him on that one.
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#189 TAG.
Kudos to you for..."coup d'etat".
You throw my generosity back in my face.
Kudos for that too.
BUT
My 'usual suspects' is plural.
So I may be beat-up but yet unbowed.
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Either Gordon has principles or not. If an innocent man was imprisoned, then that only compounds the injustice. However, I have to point out that the Scottish Justice Minister has never stated that the trial or verdict was flawed.
Gordon doesn not have the luxury of operating a two faced policy when he is sending UK soldiers to face death in a war of highly questionable purpose. Does he value trade profits above the lives of our soldiers ?
I'm not against war. I'm against politicians who don't understand the unpleasant consequences of initiating armed aggression. A politician has no 'wiggle room' once he sends his country's troops into battle. He either supports them 100% or resigns.
The worst possible thing he could have done was to allow Lord Mandelson to get involved, and he's not exactly renowned for his discretion, or straight dealing.
If Gordon's plan is to alienate the British public, segments at a time, he's achieving spectacular success. The Afghan war is coming apart at the seams as it is, but if it just appears to be treated by Gordon as an adjunct to trade negotiations, then the troops should be withdrawn immediately.
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#191 GomerPyle.
You have hit upon a universal truth, the mother of the oldest profession and sundry other ills that plague us.
Live is cheap, memories are short and advantage is all.
How would you change this?
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184. At 10:01am on 02 Sep 2009, T A Griffin (TAG) wrote:
#181
You are of course correct. Some say that Mandela has praised this release, please remember as Paxman pointed out last night that Mandela is a 'friend' of Gaddaffi. In the meantime as I have said before Mandela is also a convicted terrorist. When exactly is terror justified, do the ends justify the means?
=
Just a note to say that Mandela was convicted as a 'terrorist' by an illegitimate racist minority government with no moral or legal foundation.
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193 the blame game
Your decription of the then South African goverment could in the main be applied to Westminster; minority,with no moral foundation and perhaps racist as it give rights and advantages to everyone except the English.
Also one mans terrorist is anothers freedom fighter whether it is/was the Ir Gun, IRA, the Welsh Nats,Eta, Eoka, Basques, and thats just here and Europe. Never mind the Mau Mau further afield.
I must admit I always find it a bit rich for the UK invaders of Iraq and afganistan to call their opposition insurgents in their own land.
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Andrew Neil:
But at what price for Britain's reputation for plain, honest dealing with dictators and resolution against terrorism?
I think that price for Britain's reputation on this question was simply too high....
=Dennis Junior=
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101#
IMHO = In My Humble Opinion. Can also add a V for Very.
Then theres FWIW (For what its worth) and ISTR (I Seem To Recall) and IIRC (If I Recall Correctly).
There are many many others...
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