Green shoots and wind turbines
Some in Government and the City profess to see some green shoots of recovery but even if they're right unemployment is set on its relentless upward march for the rest of the year: this morning the latest figures show it rose a record 281,000 in the three months to May to 2.38m. At this rate it could be just shy of 3m by year-end.
The government in general - and Energy & Climate Change Secretary Ed Miliband in particular - are pressing on with their "green" agenda, always more difficult in terms of public opinion when times are bad.
But the government has taken the novel line of claiming that the green agenda will actually help us get out of recession by creating new jobs. I appreciate you don't have to be a global warming sceptic to be sceptical of this.
Ed Miliband on BBC Radio Four's Today
In order to see this content you need to have both Javascript enabled and Flash installed. Visit BBC Webwise for full instructions. If you're reading via RSS, you'll need to visit the blog to access this content.
Mr Miliband forecasts there will be 400,000 "green" jobs by 2015, though such figures are never more than guesstimates and should always be treated with suspicion. No more so than this one because, as the Energy Secretary places ever more faith in wind power -- promising 15% of our energy needs will come from renewable resources by 2020 -- and as he pledges to make Britain a world leader in low-carbon technology, the country's only significant maker of wind turbines (the Vestas factory in the Isle of Wight) has announced it's closing, with a loss of over 600 jobs.
Vestas currently supplies the US market and couldn't get government help to convert its facilities to the requirements of the British market. So all 7,000 of the wind turbines that the government will say today it intends to install over the next decade look like they will be made in Germany, Denmark and China. Not quite when Mr Miliband had in mind, I'm sure, when he said we'd be a leader in low-carbon technology.
There are serious questions, too rarely asked, about wind power anyway. We've already spent several billion on building just over 2,000 wind turbines but they contribute barely 1% of our electricity; their combined output is only about 700 megawatts, less than the electricity generated by a single, medium-sized conventional power station. So even 7,000 more turbines won't necessarily make a huge contribution.
Nor do they come cheap. Electricity generated by turbines is about twice as expensive as that coming from conventional fossil-fuel generators. We're already paying, in effect, a turbine "supplement" in our electricity bills, though the extra cost isn't immediately clear on the statements. That extra cost will rise as turbines sprout.
There are also questions about the logistics: 7,000 on and offshore turbines between now and 2010 means, allowing for bad winter weather, installing two of them every week for the next 11 years ... each one roughly the size of the Blackpool Tower. Not sure we have the capability to do that -- but we'll see.
Finally an heretical question that is rarely asked at all in the mainstream media: are we right to continue to place so much emphasis on expensive anti-global warming policies when average temperatures have been lower than the 1998 peak for every one of the 10 years since then (and this year is forecast to be lower too)? It's the sort of question a growing band of sceptics are asking ever more loudly and we'll have one on this morning's Daily Politics. Oh yes, you get every opinion on good old DP!!
Anita Anand spoke to government chief scientific adviser Professor John Beddington on the calls for climate change action on last Friday's show
In order to see this content you need to have both Javascript enabled and Flash installed. Visit BBC Webwise for full instructions. If you're reading via RSS, you'll need to visit the blog to access this content.
Comments
Sign in or register to comment.
The huge wind-trbines that are several hundred feet high are never well received by environmentalists, and they're probably right.
Micro generation is the way forward I think. A small wind-turbine on the gable-end of my house and some PV solar panels on the South-facing roof would generate some useful power most of the year, but both technologies are too expensive at the moment.
That's what the Government needs to focus on.
Reducing the cost of microgeneration for ordinary householders...
Complain about this comment
It would be very interesting to see how Ed Miliband can justify expanding cheap air travel for all, whilst achieving an 80% cut in emissions - see http://moralorder.mediumisthemess.com/blog yesterday's article entitled: 'Cheap not nasty'. It is one things to talk about cutting emissions, it is another to 'achieve' it by buying 'credits from the developing countries.
Case of having ones carbon and eating it perhaps
Complain about this comment
I've worked in the fossil-fueled end of the power industry for years. In order to balance the contributions from wind power, the fossil fueled stations have to operate flexibly to balance out the grid. This makes the fossil fueled stations more difficult to operate and may even lead to higher emmission levels during these transition periods.
Consider the overall picture, not just the part you wish to promote.
Complain about this comment
Surely, these new jobs will simply be cannibalised and retrained from the obsolete technologies surely?
A simple example I can provide is a renewal project given to engineers to design which turned out to only be 1/10th of the budget available to complete the project
Thus the specifications given may actually be the problem which points away from Green Technology, and thus fulfils the Nuclear agenda.
Again I wish that the media would actually dig deeper and investigate much more thoroughly rather than simply accepting the spoon feeding from this government. Could it be that the Government are employing "doublespeak" ?
Complain about this comment
I am not sure I have seen a more infuriating piece on the Daily Politics show as todays section on climate change. It was so biased in favour of the environmental sceptic position. Where were the academics, either climate scientists or environmental political economists to offer a balance. The scientific consensus on climate change is now irrefutable by all but the most ardent skeptics and yet any viewers of the show today ignorant of this fact were led to think otherwise. Andrew states above, "Oh yes, you get every opinion on good old DP!!"; hardly!
Complain about this comment
Party line greenwash!
I can't take Ed Miliband or his brother David seriously in any case. After a couple of minutes listening to either of them I can't help thinking that they sound like Bill and Ben!
Complain about this comment
Why didn't the PM read out the names of all those young soldiers who have died in Afghanistan since the last PMQs a week previously?
And usually, after reading out the names he then pays tribute to them saying that they have done a great service to the country etc, etc..... But today, absolutely nothing!
He's done it for every other death in that theatre - so why not now?
Complain about this comment
I recall several years ago the panic was all about Global warming. Now that the statistics show that in the last 10 years the earth has not actually got any warmer the goalposts have been moved to Climate change.
This makes it harder to disprove since any unseasonal weather pattern is immediately labelled climate change.
Be very sceptical. Remember Iraq. It started with removing Saddams weapons of mass destruction and when none were found it quickly mutated into getting rid of a tyrannical dictator.
When was the last time you heard a government minister banging on the way they did in the Blair era about Weapons of mass destruction and 45 minute warnings etc.
So the UK will continue wasting billions of pounds, making energy more expensive and business less competitiive on the altar of climate change while China contiues to churn out cheap goods based on low labour & energy costs.
And then the government will wonder where all the manufacturing jobs in the UK went. How I wish politicians would dump these popularist climate change, carbon footprint and Green hobby horses. Sure environmental considerations are important but they are not the be all and end all of everything as many seem to think.
Complain about this comment
"The scientific consensus on climate change is now irrefutable by all but the most ardent skeptics"
Only if they rely on the BBC for their information. I fear Andrew may have gone off message and his prospects at the Corporation could now be little better than Peter Sissons'.
Complain about this comment
Channel 5 showed a series of building a wind farm in the mid west of USA, although the series was confined to building one turbine. There was a work crew of about 20, and the turbine assembly entailed putting three separate parts together.
The base tower was lifted to a vertical position and placed on a prepared concrete platform with steel bolts that had to fit precisely onto the base bottom. As it was windy (not much point in placing a wind farm in a windless area) it was time consuming and dangerous as the entire turbine weighs upwards of 100 tons. Next the middle section was bolted onto the base section, and finally the top and blades were bolted at the end.
The crew were VERY specialized and have to have a head for heights, the cranes used were similar to those used on building sites and in all it took about a week to complete the build. The logistics for off shore wind farms must be horrendous. Miliband's 400,000 figure is pie in the sky, knowing this shower of a government that figure probably includes the workers in China, Denmark and Germany who will build the sections.
Funny how the carbon foot print of sending wind turbines halfway round the world is not an issue!
Complain about this comment
Why are wind farms being given so much investment when there are still other options like wave power under development which could turn out to be more effective?
=
Andrew:
Why is Kevin Maguire still given air time on the BBC? I have a copy of a blog he wrote for the Mirror when his mate McBride resigned. I cannot paste it here as the smear against Cameron will be moderated. It is a vile piece of journalism and was 100% condemned by the Mirror's own (mainly Labour supporting) readers, who continue to ridicule him, to the point where he has removed the comments facility from his blogs.
He is very careful to moderate what he says on TV, doesn't have the bottle to come out and repeat what he writes.
Was he your choice for Nick's stand-in on the DP Show or is he the go-to Brown acolyte for the BBC?
Complain about this comment
TheBlameGame 11
Me too, I absolutely refuse to watch anything with Maquire on it. That the BBC still choose to use this man has been a big surprise to me, I thought he had been discredited for his actions over the McBride smears.
Complain about this comment
#5
jim_gee
You can hardly justify complaining about anti-climate change bias in today's DP. Virtually every previous programme raising this topic has been totally biased the other way, with guests only from the 'save the planet' lobby. It's a refreshing change to see a bit of balance introduced.
Although the 'greens' may well be right, their 'holier than thou' attitude, and their outrage at any questioning of their beliefs raises the hackles of many people looking for rational arguments for and against.
Complain about this comment
It becomes ever more difficult to see a coherent pilicy on anything this government are doing.
They are continuously chasing the problems and never coming up with the right answers.
For anyone who watched the long line of hearses carrying out young soldiers yesterday it was first a feeling of emotion and today one of anger as Brown continues on the same path of kicking everthing into the long grass. It will be sorted out tomorrow. It never is.
There is never an exit strategy with Brown He just can't think that far ahead. His head is too full of fictitious figures.
Complain about this comment
This govn have done some good things on the environment but why cannot they make the big decisions? The way we are going we are going to suddenly find we do not have the energy generating capacity. Wind turbines are not the answer. I agree with TGR #1 that microgeneration is the way forward. This coupled with either nuclear or new and more efficient coal/gas power stations and energy efficiency savings.
Forget electric cars. For a big city these may be an option but there again a big city has a decent public transport network.
The other big issue is the expanding human population. Always neglected but more people equals more required resource. At some point this is going to get critical.
PS. UK emissions will fall dramatically now the HoC is in recess!
Complain about this comment
The climate has always changed. I remember decades ago floods, heatwaves, snow, ice. The lot.
It is a big lie by Brown to get the public scared and submissive to his federal Europe and then federal world plans. These are his biggest frighteners:
Climate change (no longer called Global warming or hole in the ozone layer)
Swine flu (what the hell is it?)
The wsr on terror - yes wse are now vulnerable to terrorist attacks but only because Blair and Brown have stirred up the middle east. It is THEIR fault. It never happened before they came in to power now did it?
Complain about this comment
Quite agree about the way Mr Neill asked the question on the global warming "controversy" .This is a serious topic and needs serious attention. He should ask his researchers to check the facts and then ask for explanation from competent scientists .He will find that the graph of the rise goes up and down but that the trend is still up.
He possibly unwittingly gave the impression that this information throws doubt on the idea of global warming, he surely can't be that ignorant!
Complain about this comment
I would like to ask a question and it may seem a very naive question to those who know much more than me on climate change. How do we know any of this is true anyway that the climate is changing. I read a lot of history books which go way back and discribe the weather and the floods which were happening at the time. It seem to me that the climate was constantly changing with unseasonal weather happening. we would not know in these times what was happening with our Arctic regions so what if these changes were always happening over time.
We know that only the scientists who embrace the climate change agenda get extra funding so would it not be in their interests to promote such. I have heard the scientists that do not believe in climate change say the climate simply follows sunspots and will always change. Is this feasible?. I remember my father telling me that when he was young the Government along with scientists of the day were predicting another ice age to come which seems never to have come to fruition.
So what is the truth.
Complain about this comment
7. Alfred the OK wrote:
Why didn't the PM read out the names of all those young soldiers who have died in Afghanistan since the last PMQs a week previously?...
He's done it for every other death in that theatre - so why not now?
=
A the OK. I believe he read out the condolences yesterday before his G8 statement to the House. I wouldn't expect him to repeat it.
Complain about this comment
10. excellentcatblogger
If the government takes 8 years after delivery to get a few Chinooks up in the air, just think how long 7,000 wind turbines will take to construct!
Complain about this comment
Excuse me for going off subject but I am incandescent at the prospect of the UK supporting Blair as President of the EU.
Ignoring party politics this surely is the most rotten parliament we have had for years, the degree of cronyism is unbelievable. Does Blairs ego know no bounds? Is he completely unaware of the general antipathy of the UK towards Europe and himself? Is this just another journey on the gravy train for him and another opportunity for him to further himself at the UK's expense?
Complain about this comment
Re climate change
The biggest visual clues are the melting polar ice caps. There is satellite evidence of that taken over a a number of years. Can that be reversed?
Apart from the production of pollutants, the destruction of huge swathes of rain forests needs to be arrested. The potential damage caused is surely not in question.
Wind farms? We need to harness the output from the windbags in the Commons and HoL.
Complain about this comment
The green agenda and the climate change theory has become an odious orthodoxy reminiscent of catholicism in the middle where no opposite viewpoint is allowed.
Whilst in agreement with the general view that we should live on the planet in a sustainable way and leave it as healthy as possible to fture generations I ask what is the conclusive proof that climate change is man made?
I was directed to the Stern Report when I asked this question on Twitter.
http://www.occ.gov.uk/activities/stern.htm
What is clear from jst the first few sentences of the report below
"The Stern Review was announced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in July 2005. The Review set out to provide a report to the Prime Minister and Chancellor by Autumn 2006 assessing the nature of the economic challenges of climate change and how they can be met, both in the UK and globally.
The Stern Review on the Economics of Climate Change, the most comprehensive review ever carried out on the economics of climate change, was published on October 30 2006 and was lead by Lord Stern, the then Head of the Government Economic Service and former World Bank Chief Economist."
is that Climate Change is taken as a fact and therefore I instantly distrusted this report. How can you have a balanced report if you begin with an assumption? That was enough there was no need to read any further for me as clearly it was biased.
Complain about this comment
At 12:15pm on 15 Jul 2009, jim_gee wrote:
I am not sure I have seen a more infuriating piece on the Daily Politics show as todays section on climate change. It was so biased in favour of the environmental sceptic position. Where were the academics, either climate scientists or environmental political economists to offer a balance. The scientific consensus on climate change is now irrefutable by all but the most ardent skeptics and yet any viewers of the show today ignorant of this fact were led to think otherwise. Andrew states above, "Oh yes, you get every opinion on good old DP!!"; hardly!
===
Sorry Jim, but you are wrong. I'm afraid you are one of those trusting souls who have been sucked in by the great global warming scam.
"The number of skeptics, far from shrinking, is swelling. Oklahoma Sen. Jim Inhofe now counts more than 700 scientists who disagree with the U.N. -- 13 times the number who authored the U.N.'s 2007 climate summary for policymakers. Joanne Simpson, the world's first woman to receive a Ph.D. in meteorology, expressed relief upon her retirement last year that she was finally free to speak "frankly" of her nonbelief. Dr. Kiminori Itoh, a Japanese environmental physical chemist who contributed to a U.N. climate report, dubs man-made warming "the worst scientific scandal in history." Norway's Ivar Giaever, Nobel Prize winner for physics, decries it as the "new religion." A group of 54 noted physicists, led by Princeton's Will Happer, is demanding the American Physical Society revise its position that the science is settled. (Both Nature and Science magazines have refused to run the physicists' open letter.)
The collapse of the "consensus" has been driven by reality. The inconvenient truth is that the earth's temperatures have flat-lined since 2001, despite growing concentrations of C02. Peer-reviewed research has debunked doomsday scenarios about the polar ice caps, hurricanes, malaria, extinctions, rising oceans. A global financial crisis has politicians taking a harder look at the science that would require them to hamstring their economies to rein in carbon."
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124597505076157449.html
Complain about this comment
16. At 3:17pm on 15 Jul 2009, flamepatricia wrote:
The climate has always changed. I remember decades ago floods, heatwaves, snow, ice. The lot.
===
flamepatricia, don't forget that in Roman times our climate was mild enough for growing grapes and wine production, and we had a "little ice age" in the 1600's, when the Thames was frozen over, etc. As you say, the climate always has changed, always will.
===
18. At 3:29pm on 15 Jul 2009, Susan-Croft wrote:
I would like to ask a question and it may seem a very naive question to those who know much more than me on climate change. How do we know any of this is true anyway that the climate is changing. I read a lot of history books which go way back and discribe the weather and the floods which were happening at the time. It seem to me that the climate was constantly changing with unseasonal weather happening. we would not know in these times what was happening with our Arctic regions so what if these changes were always happening over time.
===
Susan, in short - we don't. Temperature measuring equipment until very recently was nowhere near as accurate as the data would need to be to give consistent, accurate results. And don't forget, the climate change "models" are just theories based on assumptions fed into computers by people with a vested interest in a particular answer.
We are right to be sceptical about the whole climate change "business", especially when espoused by hypocrites such as Al Gore, major investor in one of the largest "carbon trading" companies out there.
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2008/06/04/gore-invests-carbon-credit-company-will-media-care
Complain about this comment
21. meninwhitecoats
No surprise there. Greasing each others palms.
Will he sort out the Middle East and bring all faiths together before taking up the post?
Complain about this comment
More intrigued that most of these wind turbines are having to be made outside the country. The country should not be subsiding other countries' industries to ahead a first mover's advantage in an industry that the Government wants to grow. Sheer madness. One is left to wonder if the politicians actually are trying to help other people as they claim. No one is accountable.
25. Yellowbelly - agree with you that the climate has changed over the milieu, having wore period costume of the mid 1600's it is all wool and linen because of the cold climates. I also suspect it is another cause for do gooders to promote as it will take time to prove and can be argue about for years.
Perhaps we should be investing in our armed forces rather than green tech, which I was surprised to see jump to the top of the agenda so soon having mentioned it before this current trouble.
And if John Hutton can't answer the question about numbers of helicopters or the options that he (as a minister with the PM) chose. Does not he realised that it just frustrated us (the voters/viewers) and lowers our opinion war.
Incidently, do we call this the Fourth Anglo-Afghan war?
Complain about this comment
21 meninwhitecoats
I understand your fury but it became obvious some time ago that Mandelson came back to make sure that Brown and Labour stayed in until the Irish elections were over.
The British people have well and truly been stitched up and so has the country.
They won't even attempt to win the next election. If the Irish vote yes and the treaty is ratified they won't wait for 9 months to call an election they will just want to get to the safe haven of Europe ASAP.
I'd like to know what Gordon's been promised. He's going along with it.
If there's one consolation we can find a way out of Europe and leave Blair and his cronies to fund their warmongering from the rest of the EU pack instead.
The last irony will be if the Irish people see the light once again and vote a resounding NO
Complain about this comment
Climate change? Doubtful, and the possible cause even more debatable. Big problem? Population growth- this IS indisputable, apparently irreversible and ultimately the biggest problem facing humanity. It never seems to cause much of a stir, though. Why?
Complain about this comment
The Milliband brothers' act is really getting up a head of steam these days with statements in the house and intense rabbitting on the box. Somehow they remind me of Mike and Bernie Winters, except that the Winters boys were probably a bit more believable. On Sunday Ed said it wouldn't cost the consumer more for power, but that there would be upward pressure on prices, right !. The sneaky one spends his time claiming we are winning a war we appear to be losing , and the troops as well as dying for who knows what are doing a marvellous job. Why has the country gone overboard building windmills which are about the most innefficient and expensive generators of electricity ever devised. Britain is sitting on a mountain of coal and surely it is not beyond our academics and industrialists to find a way of using it without polluting the planet. The sad thing about it all is that even if Britain produced no carbon footprint at all, India and China and a. n. other will still be producing about 100 times what we produce. The whole thing is an exercise in futility and more about political expediency and tax raising than saving the environment.
Complain about this comment
When I see Maguire (is it Jerry?) on TV I am reminded of all the Ministers who come on and spin something which any decent person knows is rubbish. My father would be horrified - he voted Labour all his life, and maintained that they were the party of the working class. They were back then but have been replaced by a bunch of people who could best be described as political "eunuchs". Why does the word insidious always seem to spring to mind? We need at least two or three decent parties who represent all the people of this country. Fat chance.
Complain about this comment
regarding climate change ...
what I've noticed is that the people who embrace this as gospel, and definitely the biggest issue we face, tend to also hold a tediously predictable range of green, lefty type views - and likewise, the people who make a big deal of being sceptics ... the deniers, as it were ... are almost always muscle headed retros
best to ignore both
Complain about this comment
Caroline Lucas, a Green party MEP, recently made the same mistake on The Andrew Marr Show. There is a wind-turbine factory not a million miles from Andrew Neil's home-town in Campbeltown. In March it was saved from closure by the SNP Scottish Government in a deal which includes £35m of funding to nearly triple the size of the existing plant, introduce new jobs, techniques, and equipment. It was taken over from Vestas (the same company who had a factory on the Isle of Wight) by Danish group Skykon.
Scottish Government News Release
Complain about this comment
"You can hardly justify complaining about anti-climate change bias in today's DP. Virtually every previous programme raising this topic has been totally biased the other way, with guests only from the 'save the planet' lobby. It's a refreshing change to see a bit of balance introduced."
A common mistake. "Balance" is certainly desirable on tv, but "balance" does not mean "have two opposite points of view, not matter how ridiculous one is". To see why that definition of "balance" is wrong, consider a documentaries/news on the BBC on the following subjects:
* Gravity (would you require someone who thinks that gravity doesn't exist?)
* Galileo (would you require someone who thinks the sun goes round the earth?)
* Holocaust (would you require someone who denies it?)
* The Anniversary of the Moon landings (would you require someone who thinks it was faked?)
* The big bang (would you require someone who believes in the literal word of Genesis?)
There are hundreds of other examples I'm sure.
My point is that science isn't politics. On a political subject, it's quite legitmate to have two opposing points of view, because there's no such thing as objective truth in politics. If you believe in the politics of New Labour or the Tories or the Lib Dems etc, then that's your point of view, not necessarily the correct thing to do. But with science, science is about finding out the truth. Now on certain issues, science doesn't know what the "truth" is yet, and when there's opposing points of view, it's legitimate to have those two points of view be shown.
However, on some issues, science does know the "truth", at least to enough of an extent that 95+% of scientists in the relevant field agree with it. For the ordinary layman then, it would be silly to disagree with such ideas that are almost universally supported, since they are the experts, and we are the laymen.
I gave some examples above: gravity, heliocentricism, Holocaust, Moon landings, the big bang.
That the Earth goes round the Sun seems trivial to us, but the only difference between that and whether global warming is happening or not is the degree of difficulty. Global warming is an incredibly complicated subject, but the outcome is the same: that global warming is happening is an idea held by almost all scientists. There is not a single international or national scientific body that thinks it isn't happening. Polls of scientists consistently show this consensus.
Your idea of balance would have fringe views considered equal to mainstream views.
Most of the views expressed here are fairly common misconceptions. Here's a good starting place to see why none of the skeptical arguments are correct:
http://scienceblogs.com/illconsidered/2008/07/how_to_talk_to_a_sceptic.php
However, I shall have a look at Andrew's comment:
"when average temperatures have been lower than the 1998 peak for every one of the 10 years since then (and this year is forecast to be lower too)? It's the sort of question a growing band of sceptics are asking ever more loudly"
Well there's no "growing band of sceptics", unless you are referring to skeptical laymen. It could be true that more of the general public don't think global warming is happening, but that isn't relevant to whether it is or not. That is a scientific question, and its truth isn't based on what the general public think (argumentum ad populum). However, if you were referring to scientists then you're wrong: there is no growing band of skeptical scientists.
No onto the substance of your skeptical argument. It's just false. This explains it quite well:
http://scienceblogs.com/illconsidered/2006/04/warming-stopped-in-1998.php
But if you don't fancy reading all that I'll summarize: 1998 was anomalously warm, and there's no reason to cherry pick it by starting your trend in that year.
Complain about this comment
I am just about convinced in respect of the arguments that we should be very concerned over global warming. I am no scientist and have to believe those in a better position than I to pass judgement.
I am however very fed up with this Government who dress up tax increases needed to pay for their mess as being green - petrol duty being the prime example.
By all means give tax breaks to corporations or institutions involved in the development of green technology. As with most important developments, it will be the capitalists who will be prepared to take the risks necessary to bring the technology to the masses and will no doubt create wealth and jobs for the country. That is real jobs creating wealth not ever greater admin jobs in the public sector draining wealth from an ever reducing private sector.
Complain about this comment
RE :34
Trusting scientists is like trusting MPs or Lords. The problem with them is that they have a become a vested interest by which I mean that govt spending on science relating to climate change issues around the world must run into billions. Why would they therefore bite the hand that feeds them?
As for statistics you can make them say anything you want I would treat it all with a healty does of scepticism.
Complain about this comment
There is a common sense approach to this; we simply do not want to be reliant on imported gas and oil. It therefore makes good financial sense to aim for better fuel efficiency, higher build specifications on new properties [when the economy recovers] and better insulation on old properties.
As a short term measure wind farms are relatively quick to implement compared to the timescales of commissioning a new nuclear power station or developing clean coal technology, which would be the obvious long term alternatives.
Regardless of where you stand on global warming, it is better to be self sufficient on the energy front than to be reliant on the fluctuating markets of imported fuel.
Complain about this comment
daemon @ 34
I agree with you that denying proven science is dangerously soft headed and, from what I can gather, the fact of climate change is just that ... fact
but what about the question of whether it is predominantly man made or not? - and, related to that, whether all these green initiatives are truly worthwhile? - is that quite so proven?
Complain about this comment
It has always been a niggle that I access Andrews site via Nicks site. I go from the BBC News Front Page to Nick and then Daily Politics on the right hand column of choices.
Now the Front Page has dumped Nick, no blogs so understandable, it has taken me ages to get here as the BBC search is not the best. Must put this in favourites then I can get here without Nicks help.
Climate change? Who knows? Wind power ? Very variable. Wave power ? The waves are always with us but I dont know?
Give us a blog we have a chance of making a contribution to please. And please ask Nick to just do a blog, thanks.
Complain about this comment
Andrew,
#7 and #19
I thought that it was bit strange as well. I think that the viewing figures are so much higher for PMQs, so I too was surprised that he chose the earlier debate to read out the names. The trouble is that later today there is to be a debate about Afghanistan. Now this is strange because surely the PM and all the party leaders will be there. So why waste PMQs today on Afghanistan, when it is to be debated in full. I would have thought the Brown would have said again the leader has not asked me one question on the economy. Which surprised me as well because the unemployment figures get worse every month.
Mind you I wonder which chancellor has underfunded the helicopter programme. Why not put the helicopters on top of a pole and on their side so that they can act as wind turbines, it would be quicker than equipping them for Afghanistan. Mind you by the time they are ready for Afghanistan they will be needed in Iran. How on earth did we win WWII! Oh that's right we didn't the Russians and Americans did.
I know let's win the next war, the war against terror, oops sorry the war against global warming, oops sorry that was yesterday, the war against climate change, anybody else watch Freefall the other night, I thought it would have finished with a clip from PMQs, you know the one where Brown spouts about we will never walk on the other side of the road! Ahhh, the son of the Manse, can't wait for Songs of Praise.
Complain about this comment
Andrew,
#39 Don't you know, Nick is just so yesterday, this is the place to be.
I do hope though that you can keep this one going whilst you are away Andrew, I worry that something terrible is going to happen in either Pakistan or Afghanistan. We must be told that in the event of any soldiers dying, or any events in Pakistan that parliament will be recalled so that the nation can be united in its response.
I hate it when Brown pulls the patriotic card, nearly as bad as his Son of the Manse.
Complain about this comment
Good morning Andrew,
#39
please note that I am not teaching anybody how to suck eggs but do you not use your favourites? I do and all I have is the following which I then click on and it takes me to the front page. Easy really. All the other blogs I keep in a folder, nothing at the moment though compares to Andrew and his team, even though they have moderated one of my posts but I think it sailed pretty close to the wind, so it shows that they are doing their jobs. So here it is, I hope that this allowed!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/dailypolitics/andrewneil/
Complain about this comment
I agree that the common sense approach should prevail. I cannot see how pumping all the crap we do into the atmosphere would not cause an effect. Whether it is to disasterous levels remains open to debate. But what is wrong with trying to reduce it?
We should be trying to get our energy requirements on a more sustainable level. The trouble with wind-power is that is will never meet our needs because they do not generate enough power and the wind is variable. We need to look at microgeneration - generating power at source. There are huge losses in generation at power stations and in the national grid. These could be saved in part by generation of electricity in homes through a combination of natural gas burners and renewables.
The biggest problem is that a grown-up debate is needed on the way forward. Putting up a wind turbine results in emissions through the materials to build it and the concrete to support it. Likewise the electric car is zero-emissions but the electricity comes from somewhere. Sometimes the environmental impact of producing the equipment outweighs the benefit.
Complain about this comment
As commented on before, the development of local renewable energy resources should be as much about making sure our energy supply is not vulnerable to international political problems as it is about protecting the environment.
Complain about this comment
Dorset-wurzel
Completely agree with you but I would add that we should also be supporting British Industry to innovate in this field and should not be buying turbines from abroad when we have such a crisis in the manufacturing industry in the UK.
We should take advantage of this opportunity to create jobs over time and there should be government grants available for viable projects. We still have a wealth of engineering knowledge in this country and should utilise it.
Complain about this comment
#45
Completely agree. Why are we not supporting Vertas? We have a pool of engineers etc from the car and steel industry etc. Instead of training them to write a CV why not get them doing what they are good at.
Complain about this comment
Good morning each & Andrew.
Can we do it?
"Yes we can!"
Why does this issue not begin with 'job creation' for our redundant/underemployed?
Because that would require action. Whereas the main thrust of this is to counter the rise in the jobless figures.
Propose-Review...PR!
More than 90% of NuL effort goes into sounding good. The realisation of the actual good that could materialise is left to the electorate, so that we are the ones to 'see' the possibilities.
Why is the company about to go bust in the IOW not promised much of this work and supported by public money?
It all reminds me of Country Joe and the Fish at Woodstock...
Give me an 'F'
give me a 'U' etc
"What's that spell?"
Why does this issue not begin with beating our unwanted cars into turbine blades? Electioneering; plain and simple.
Complain about this comment
#46
It is typical of the short sightedness of most governments - instead of looking at the bigger picture.
There are perfectly good factories closing all round the UK - profitable companies are being closed down and work is being transferred to Asia because better margins can be achieved abroad. This is particularly prevalent in US owned companies - additionally they acquire high tech British companies and then transfer the work back to the States. All my major clients who were UK based 10 years ago without exception are now owned by foreign corporations, who have no intrinsic loyalty to UK workers.
Many of the skilled people made redundant do not qualify for job seekers allowance and I believe are not included in the unemployment figures, which I would treat with a fair degree of scepticism.
I seriously doubt that Peter Mandelson has the faintest idea how manufacturing industry works - it is far too menial for him. How ironic that a Labour administration has let down industry so badly.
Complain about this comment
re 39 easier access to this blog.
open your word processor and any of these blogs. Goto the BBC news blog menu Right click on the blog you want. then Copy link location then goto the word processor and paste it into a document. Do this for however many blogs you use then save file on your desktop as an HTML file.You will have a small offline webpage you can use as a menu.
Complain about this comment
We need greenhouse gasses to survive The planet would be too cold if we didn't have them. but they are regulated by nature being removed from the atmosphere and stored in plants and animals turning eventually into coal and oil underground. Its Natures Carbon Capture. So In my opinion, as we are burning this store. we must be disrupting this regulating Carbon Cycle. I obviously don't want to upset the petrol/hydrogen heads. If it isn't Co Co2 and Methane what is it? sunspots? Mosture? Aliens?
Complain about this comment
#34
No true scientist would be as dogmatic as this. Scientific advancement generally occurs in incremental steps towards the ultimate truth - without necessarily ever reaching that goal.
Your examples - gravity, holocaust, etc - were deliberately ridiculous. But amongst them you did include Galileo and his discovery that the earth went round the sun. You omitted to mention what the prevailing scientific 'certainty' was at that time. or was Galileo the only scientist existing?
At least you concede that your views are held 'by almost all scientists' Presumably the dissenters are simply incompetent scientists? Maybe they thought that about Galileo.
Complain about this comment
Andrew
Further to your statement that Vesta's is the only significant wind turbine maker. I mentioned that you had said this on Twitter. Apparently I am told you are wrong.
There is another one that is doing very nicely thank you. Its not in England though like Vesta's (surprise surprise) its in Scotland (surprise surprise) and I am informed its in Browns constituency (surprise surprise).
Complain about this comment
The implementation of wind turbines in the U.K. is such an insignificant contribution to the reduction of green house gases as to be hardly worth comment.
Industrialisation in developing countries is more significant.
The inreasing removal of rain forests is more significant.
The dependance on fossil fuels by developed countries such as the U.S.A. is more significant.
This recent announcement from the government is only political spin to make them appeal more to the 'green' vote. Nothing more than that.
Complain about this comment
52 superAngry
It's not in Brown's constituency on the east coast, it's in Argyll on the west coast. And as I pointed out at #33 it was a deal secured by, among others, the SNP when Vestas wanted to close the factory down. Instead there is huge investment going into it by Skykon. We couldn't expect such a common-sense approach from Labour.
Complain about this comment
Like others on the blog, I fail to understand why the government is placing so much faith in expensive, inefficient, unreliable wind energy.
Wave energy from seas and oceans, heat energy from the sun in desert regions, heat from the earth itself a few metres below the surface, and energy from rivers and streams are far more worthy of investment and development. And further investment and effort in cleaning existing fuels and developing alternatives would pay better dividends than unsightly regiments of modern day windmills. (At least the old ones were picturesque).
Who is advising the government on these policies? Have they got vested interests in the manufacture and commissioning of these monsters?
Complain about this comment
RE :54
Well TimothyFClarke I dont know what to say to that since it was an MP that povided me with that information on Twitter. I can only assume either they are mistaken or there may be others in Scotland.
Whichever it still means that once again whilst the English hating Brown and his Scottish Cabal let company's in England collapse it is without dounbt that when contracts come to be awarded they will go to Scotland.
Complain about this comment
Are there plans to use ground source energy in all new builds? It should be compulsory and state funded. I've seen a couple being installed on Grand Designs and know of a few people having them done. It sounds as though there is a capped subsidy. Anyone know what the situation is?
=
Apparently algae is one of the 'cleanest' forms of biofuel.
So pondscum like McBride, McNulty, Hoon, Conway etc. can be put to good use.
Badda boom.
Complain about this comment
Andrew,
I thought that it was not long ago that William was to be trained to fly helcopters, as was I think his brother 'we do bad things to bad people' Harry. Now my point is that was it not long ago that William did in fact, as part of his training, drop off at his girlfriends home so that they could meet up for a party or something of that kind.
Now if our trainee pilots spent a bit more time practicing in appropriate ways then maybe we may have the pilots to send to Afghanistan. Furthermore, maybe one of the problems is the number of pilots who are trained at our expense and who then promptly go off and do their duty as private contractors, maybe actually being employed by a form which has former senior military officers as their employees.
Complain about this comment
I do not care who makes them and where they are, these wind turbines are a defacement of our Countryside and the most useless thing known to man in my opinion. How many of these things would we need in the end to do any good.
It would be much more sensible if the Government would get on with giving us nuclear stations and carbon storage schemes, before the lights go out in this Country.
Complain about this comment
56 superAngry
The MP is wrong, there are no other such factories in Scotland. I'm sure between us we could name more than a few MPs who are often wrong. I wouldn't be surprised if the MP who told you this was Nadine Doris.
It might not suit conspiracy theorists such as yourself, but Brown refuses to say he's a Scot (he's North British apparently); his accent you hear isn't a Fife accent, it's the accent of a Scot trying (badly) to sound more English; Labour is a party who talk about appealing to "middle England" (whatever that may be); they wish to create and invest in a Green Capital in Cornwall when Scotland is far more advanced in and has a greater potential in green energy; who have taken so much money from Scotland and elsewhere in the UK for the Olympics; and who wish to take software jobs from Dundee, where Scotland has invested much time and capital to create them, to create a digital future in Manchester.
Labour isn't an anti-Scotland or anti-England party. It isn't about setting one nation against another. And Brown's cabinet is statistically more an Unelected Cabal than it is a Scottish Cabal. It's about an ineffective government with no direction, no sense of purpose or ideals, too busy trying to appeal to everyone to do anything which appeals to anyone, in its death throes talking about the future so the media stops talking about the present because Labour know they are about to spend a very long time in the wilderness.
And frankly, while the SNP are running the show in Scotland and Labour are doing everything in their power to trip them up (even at the expense of Scotland), I would be very surprised if Labour do award such contracts to Skykon.
Complain about this comment
Can you please avoid the mealy mouthed 'rarely asked' or 'heretical' questions. If you do not believe that we have manmade climate change and in the related scientific opinion then just say so quite clearly. Then we know where you are coming from.
Complain about this comment
For those with an interest in the facts, this website about wind farms may be of interest.
www.bwea.com/ukwed/map-construction.html
Complain about this comment
60
On the last note I made about Labour wishing to talk about the future so we stop discussing the present, as if they wish to prove it I just this minute received a response to the petition demanding an election now:
Thank you for your e-petition.
As you may be aware, a general election must be called before June 2010, when the whole country will have an opportunity to express their point of view.
In the meantime, you may be interested to read the Governments recently published plan, Building Britains Future. The document sets out a radical vision for a fairer, stronger and more prosperous society for all.
You can read the proposals, and take part in the debate about the countrys future, at the following website
http://www.hmg.gov.uk/buildingbritainsfuture
Complain about this comment
55: 'Who is advising the government on these policies? Have they got vested interests in the manufacture and commissioning of these monsters?'
Although it is shocking how many of those who have donated money to the Labour Party get permission for their developments, or government projects, the reason they are so pro wind is probably more prosaic. This government does things for headlines, for example they build hospitals so they can say 'we've built 20 new hospitals' even if they aren't needed and are underused. Wind farms are relatively quick to build, the numbers of actual turbines sound large, and thus make a good headline.
Complain about this comment
deaman138 34
In fact your scientists sound exactly like politicians because you say that the public should have no right to be sceptical about anything they are told by them. You seem to believe that in spite of the fact that some scientists are given extra money when they sign up to climate change we should not think they may have a certain bias.
Your examples to me were very strange also, two of which are events the Holocaust and the moon landings. Events I would suggest are different to proven science. There is in fact a lot of belief when I was in America that the moon landing did not occur. There seems to be this opinion that a lot of the equipment used at the time for the landings would not have stood up to the moons atmosphere and would have burnt up, this remains very much a puzzle to a lot of well informed people. Much testing has been done on the material used for the suits etc, apparently, and the same result is always found.
I further did not understand your reference to 1998, if that has proved to be the hottest year and things are starting to cool in the years after, is it not reasonable to assume that we are entering another phase of climate change.
--------------------------------------------------------
I would also like someone if possible to answer me on whether it is feasible that the climate follows sunspots as some scientists believe and have said. If they have any information about this, that I can read, I would be very grateful.
Complain about this comment
I suggest you re-read Andrew's blog especially this bit:
"Mr Miliband forecasts there will be 400,000 "green" jobs by 2015, though such figures are never more than guesstimates and should always be treated with suspicion. No more so than this one because, as the Energy Secretary places ever more faith in wind power -- promising 15% of our energy needs will come from renewable resources by 2020 -- and as he pledges to make Britain a world leader in low-carbon technology, the country's only significant maker of wind turbines (the Vestas factory in the Isle of Wight) has announced it's closing, with a loss of over 600 jobs.
Vestas currently supplies the US market and couldn't get government help to convert its facilities to the requirements of the British market. So all 7,000 of the wind turbines that the government will say today it intends to install over the next decade look like they will be made in Germany, Denmark and China. Not quite when Mr Miliband had in mind, I'm sure, when he said we'd be a leader in low-carbon technology."
----------------
Yes it looks like the contracts are going abroad. This Gov seems more concerned about jobs overseas than jobs in Britain for British workers. That the Scottish plant has no chance, in getting an order goes without saying. It gives Brown an opportunity to play politics by getting one over the SNP.
Complain about this comment
Moriarty 61
I do not know whether I believe climate change is man made or not, however I would like more proof before I started dotting the Countryside with these useless windmills. I also question why we are not dealing with the biggest contribution to pollution of all, the Worlds population, which is growing every year. This if it is allowed to continue at the rate it is, will wipe out all the earths resources in no time.
Complain about this comment
42 TAG
49 dhwilkinson
Thanks for computing info. I am comparitively new to such things and all help and advice gratefully received.
I now have Andrews site on my favourites bar.
Complain about this comment
#65 Susan
We have touched on this previously, I don't think this is "hard" science as you can cherry pick the facts to suit your point on view on climate change.
However my gut instinct [unproven] is that the rate of climate change has increased ad as Dorset-Worzel said we are not doing any good belching out pollution into the environment.
I may be tilting at windmills but I actually like the look of wind turbines, I can admire the simplicity of their design - I realise I am in the minority on this.
Complain about this comment
meninwhitecoates 69
I get a similar response when I say I like the 'Angel Of The North'.
I agree totally with Dorset-Worzel and you, we are not doing any good belching out pollution. However I would not like to think people and business are paying more for energy etc in the future on unproven science theory because I think cost will be very important in the future. Also the windmills may be very appealing to some, however, I do question they are changing the look of the Countryside and how many more are we going to have to have, to do any good.
Other than that I just like to know things and learn things.
Strange you should say that, the thought of our previous discussions was on my mind when writing the previous posts.
Complain about this comment
70 SusanCroft
I like the Angel too, but then I like the Iron Man in Brum, so .......
Must be about 20yrs ago one of the first experimental wind turbines was erected in Devon near Ilfracombe. From a distance it looked ok. When you got underneath it it was imense, tall as a church and the blades massive.
Locals complained about noise from it, is this still a problem ?
Some of them do spoil the view in really nice countryside but is this a price we have to pay ? I mean pylons aint that pretty.
Complain about this comment
43. At 09:03am on 16 Jul 2009, Dorset_wurzel wrote:
I agree that the common sense approach should prevail. I cannot see how pumping all the crap we do into the atmosphere would not cause an effect. Whether it is to disasterous levels remains open to debate. But what is wrong with trying to reduce it?
.....and
50. At 11:58am on 16 Jul 2009, dhwilkinson wrote:
We need greenhouse gasses to survive The planet would be too cold if we didn't have them. but they are regulated by nature being removed from the atmosphere and stored in plants and animals turning eventually into coal and oil underground. Its Natures Carbon Capture. So In my opinion, as we are burning this store. we must be disrupting this regulating Carbon Cycle. I obviously don't want to upset the petrol/hydrogen heads. If it isn't Co Co2 and Methane what is it? sunspots? Mosture? Aliens?
===
Got in in one, dhwilkinson. The biggest greenhouse gas of all is water vapour, which is not man-made, and accounts for 95% of greenhouse gasses. CO2 accounts for 3.68% of total greenhouse gasses, of which 0.117% is man-made. The vast majority of CO2 is natural, from volcanoes and other sources.
Of the total greenhouse gasses, anthropogenic (man-made)emissions amount to 0.28% of the total, or only 5.53% excluding water vapour,(although why it should be excluded I don't know).
So announcing "green initiatives" and committing us to reducing our CO2 emissions by 80% at great cost is merely Don Quixotic tilting at windmills. Just another way to scare us, control us, keep us in our place, and tax us. The UK only produces 2% of the world's anthropogenic CO2 emissions anyway, so whatever we do, at whatever cost, will have virtually no effect on global outcomes.
I would love to see Brown's initiatives for stopping water evaporation or stopping volcanoes erupting, maybe in the next manifesto!!
http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/greenhouse_data.html
http://www.env.go.jp/earth/g8/en/g20/index_popup.html
Complain about this comment
Moderators, my comment at #72 was on-topic, and contained factual information about climate change. I have not received an email from you to explain why it has been referred.
You are breaking your own house rules.
Complain about this comment
xTunbridge 71
Both these structures (Angel of the North and The Ironman) I believe were constructed to represent the culture of the particular place where they were erected. From that point of view I believe they are both successful.
Was it really 20 years ago the first wind turbine was erected?
What I understand is that they emit a low level noise that is disturbing for local residents. From a distance they look large, so I can imagine that close up they could be intimidating and an eye sore.
Furthermore, I have an aversion to pylons and would never contemplate living in close proximity to one if it can be avoided as there are many claims they are the root cause of health issues such as cancer.
I hope in the next phase in saving the planet there are not masses of windmills springing up all over the place.
Complain about this comment
#63
I too have just received this 'invitation'.
There must be an election in the offing somewhere or other.
Complain about this comment
I am no scientist, however I have read articles written by people I believe to be competent to comment who say that wind power is dreadfully inefficient in comparison to other sources of energy and in particular wave power. Does anyone know why we persist with the wind option?
If I may be permitted to move off topic. Why is there no blog in respect of the select committee's questioning of Mr Brown. I have just watched it on the news and his efforts not to answer a straight question would be laughable if it were not for the fact that our troops are dieing in Afghanistan. Is there any process that can be initiated to impeach this man as incapable of doing the job?
Finally, does anyone know what has happened to Nick Robinson? I believe that he usually informs us if he is about to take a holiday and the link always remains on the BBC website. No information this time and the blog link no longer appears on the Politics section of the main site.
Complain about this comment
Maybe Harriet was watching Wednesday's show...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1200123/Axed-Strictly-judge-Arlene-Phillips-victim-age-discrimination-says-Harman.html
Complain about this comment
Yellowbelly1959
Glad your on tonight, thank you for your information and link yesterday.
Complain about this comment
oldreactionary 76
I saw most of Brown interviewed by the Select Committee and the troops were not the only issue he was very evasive about. There were the banks, education, transport etc all of which he was allowed to answer in a less than frank and honest way. If this is supposed to be holding him to account it was hardly a success.
It has never been so obvious to me before how powerless we become as a public, when we get someone in an important office like PM, and nothing and no one can get him out. No one can seem to stop him making his inaccurate statements, even though we are all aware he is telling untruths.
Complain about this comment
lordBeddGelert 77
I never envisaged a time when I would agree with Harriet Harman, however the day has arrived.
Complain about this comment
74 SusanCroft
I checked the date of the Ilfracombe prototype and in 1986 it had been operating for 2500 hours and was seen as good enough to gain an order for twenty of the same in the USA.
The is currently a proposal, some sites say "approved", to site 22 turbines, each 360 feet high, at Fullabrook Down near Ilfracombe.(And 26 on Romney Marsh)
The locals and Tourist Industry are not impressed.
Complain about this comment
I like pylons, like them very much - when I retire, I'll be looking for a house with a good view of a whole row of them
hey, where's Nick? ... has he been fired for pro Tory bias?
Complain about this comment
xTunbridge 81
So it was actually longer than 20 years, I am really astounded, you think of wind turbines as a relatively new thing. BTW I never doubted you for a moment, I was just surprised.
Surely this is now getting out of hand, these windmills are growing like mushrooms and as oldreactionary says their use is not proved. No wonder the locals and tourist industry are not impressed.
Complain about this comment
79 Susan
You are right. It goes without saying that our Prime Minister would avoid giving some one an answer to "what time is it? on the grounds that he might show himself to be incompetent.
82 Saga - You are a card. I won't be drawn in to the anticipated response re Nick Robinson's Tory bias. I do share your curiosity as to where he is though.
Complain about this comment
What I was trying to point out in #72 was that CO2 only makes up a small fraction of the overall greenhouse gasses, and anthropogenic (man-made) emissions only make up a small fraction of that number, and that the UK only makes up a small percentage of THAT number, so our contribution to climate change is miniscule. The only reason it is headline news is to frighten us, to control us and to tax us, and the media are complicit in this.
Complain about this comment
The biggest greenhouse gas is water vapour. This alone accounts for 95% of greenhouse gasses. The only reason it is ignored by the complicit media is because it is natural, cannot be controlled or manipulated by man, and cannot be taxed.
Complain about this comment
Man is responsible for 0.28% of all greenhouse gasses, or 5.53% if you exclude water vapour, as the zealots would have you do.
The UK is responsible for 2% of CO2 emissions. 2% of 5.53% is not very much.
Committing the UK to reduce its CO2 emissions by 80% by 2050 will do nothing to save the planet from the inexorable climate change that always has happened, and always will. It will cost a lot of jobs in "old" and "inefficient" industries, and will cost all of us dear in increased fuel bills.
However, some people, not least Al Gore with his "carbon trading" scam will do very nicely out of all this.
Complain about this comment
More information is available at:
http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/greenhouse_data.html
http://www.env.go.jp/earth/g8/en/g20/index_popup.html
Complain about this comment
Andrew,
I have a problem. I watched Brwon being asked questions this morning/afternoon. He said he had been advised by the military that he should not disclose how many helicopters there were in Afghanistan. Now the, the enemy can easily just watch the bases, or see the 'copters flying around. However, what they cannot do is actually count the number of soldiers, it is not like they draw an attack and then count the positions where the bullets are coming from, this is after all not the wars of the 19th century, although you would not believe it.
So, what is obvious cannot be disclosed, whereas that which can't, the number of soldiers, can. Brown categorically mentioned 9,100 or was it 8,000 or something. I think even in his tiny little mind it became apparent that he was just being silly. I mean no 'copter numbers, yet the number of soldiers, no problem. It is like a pub quiz question, 'how many 'copters in Afghan? Is it ten twenty or thirty or is it sixty percent of nothing.
All that Brown has to do is to publish the list of options which were put to him. What were the options Brown? You've spilt the beans so you might as well tell us. How many of the funerals have you or your ministers attended for the fallen, there was aparade through Exeter of returning soldiers, Ben Bradshaw the local MP did not attend! says it all.
Complain about this comment
86 yellow
"..The biggest greenhouse gas is water vapour. This alone accounts for 95% of greenhouse gasses..."
Why are we getting more water vapour? a warmer climate caused by Increased Carbon monoxide carbon dioxide and methane emmissions maybe? Its called a feedback effect and makes the problem worse. As I have said we need a greenhouse effect to keep the Earth warm enough for life but it is regulated by the Carbon cycle we are burning natures carbon capture, releasing more Carbon into the atmosphere increasing the temperature evaporating the water therefore increasing the temperature therefore increasing the temperature etc. I watched the excellent value for money Jonathan Ross last week. James May spoke exactly like you about hydrogen fuel cells and hydrogen infrastructure. You're not are you?
Complain about this comment
I believe Andrew mentioned that Nick was away attending an awards ceremony in which one of his offspring won a prize for journalism.
Obviously not a chip off the old block. :-)
And there was me thinking he was waiting for Coulson's grilling before the Committee next week.
Andrew, I hope you will have asked Ms Abbott about her vote on the Gary McKinnon debate on the show tonight.
Complain about this comment
Andrew,
with regard to Wind Farms please can anybody supply any results of studies made into the effect of these wind farms on air flow patterns. In the same way that in Chicago, the windy City, air flows have been changed by building on what was flat land. Same with India, are farmers finding that the air flows have changed, bringing dryer air, or windier conditions where previously it was of a mangeable strength. Are there effects on the spread of deserts.
this may seem to some to be rather a stupid question but surely there must be some effect, what with the fluttering of the wings of a butterfly causing a gale in Dover! Sorry Dover it was either you or exeter, the home of the Met Office.
Complain about this comment
Andrew,
how weird was that. You had John Pienaar on your programme doing his peace piece and what does he mention? Dover #92. This is getting seriously weird, no, now don't deal with this is the usual manner, this is click, click serious, honest.
I do hope that some way can be found to keep your blog going during the MPs holiday. There are no other outlets for the serious, yes I know, contributor to the political debates, and what am I for one going to do during the summer holidays, what with the weather down here in the westcountry being so appalling.
Let me tell you this. The unemployment figures do not tell the whole story. For example, there are many now losing their jobs, both men and women who will not be signing on. They will get the pensioners credit which will bring their income far above any unemployment benefit. the same with the long term sick, they will start getting this pensioners credit as well, which will also keep them off the figures, and leave them to their fate.
What many people do not understand is that many couples do not live together for most of the day. Either of the couple are at work, so when they retire the problems of two people living together 24/7 becomes intolerable. There is also the care of an older parent. Many women for example have had the children, brought them up, and now want to have a life, only they are now expected to look after either an elderly mother or father. Also they wanted to enjoy their retirement, trouble is that the person they married no longer is as fit as they were, they just want to have a rest, only it doesn't work.
For many couples it is coming to pay back time, I've looked after the kids and the home, now I want my bit, only now that they are together 24/7 their is no hope, they don't even like each other any more, he farts and snores, and she has a leaking bladder and sagging breasts. I am not talking here about Itchy and Scratchy either. If the government actually thinks that they can handle global warming, climate change or wind farms then they are due for a serious wake up call. Andrew, you actually touched on this with your show tonight, we are going to get the VW Camper, just go, just travel and see what happens. We were not all dope heads in the sixties, but we may well become one now that we are the sixties.
Lock and load guys, it's time to party. Brown is doing scorched earth, well I can handle a post apocalyptic Britain, but how many others will?
Complain about this comment
Am I the only person to notice,contrary to common perception, Michael Portillo's relentless move to the right? There has it seems always been space to the left of Mr Portillo. However, this evening he went even further and Diane Abbott was hunched in the corner of the sofa. Will she eventually have to sit on the arm of the sofa?
Complain about this comment
Good Morning Andrew,
can I tell you that I am actually beginning to feel sorry for Gordon Brown, and I'll tell you why.
Firstly, let us never forget that it was Blair who got Britain into the Afghanistan and Iraq wars. Now Brown had to go along with them because he was Cahancellor and paid for them, if he did not support Blair and the wars then he would have had to resign. He did not, he funded the wars and let nobody ever dare forget that fact, not fiction.
Then Blair says that he will serve a full term when a general election was to be held. That again is fact and not fiction. Now during Blairs fourth term it would be expected that Iraq would end, and Aghanistan was sorted already, so no wars for Brown to sort out when he eventually led the country. Which he expected to do because labour was bribing so many of the people to vote for them that they could not lose to those nasty conservatives.
Then Blair chickened out and fell on his sword too early, he cracked and fled the scene. So, Brown takes over. He should have stood for election, he should have called an election and he would have won. Only trouble is that he bottled it, why nobody will ever know what went on in Brown's head, but he didn't show leadership, he had craved power, he had done it without Mandelson, he was master of all he surveyed.
Now we are where we are. He has a general who is due to retire next month, somebody who also took over from a general who retired and who is now employed in the private sector. So he has a general who suddenly starts bleating that he needs more soldiers, more equipment, more of everything. Trouble is he is retiring, what does the next general want, he will want everything, yet Brown now what he is being told, 'never reinforce defeat', 'we are the problem and never the solution', 'you will never win hearts and minds because you are a force of occupation', but worst of all, your major ally has learnt from history that colonialism doesn't work, that it was the French who got America into Vietnam, and now they have learnt that there was a reason why nobody had ever 'won' in Afghanistan. America will go, just leave, so, now it is a disaster.
This is a disaster, why has Dannet waited until the month before he retires to 'go public', why has this gone so wrong, money was going to be spent on training the Afganistan National Army and the police, where are the brave soldiers who fought in Iraq and brought us 'victory' in Iraq, yes that right they have joined the contractors, the mercenaries by any other name.
In the past Britain has trained the Doctors, only for them to go private, we trained the nurses, who then went private, we trained the teachers, who then went private, we trained the engineers and scientists, who then went and emigrated and took the money from richer states, remember 'the brain drain' we had ships built which gave employment to the shipbuilders, ships which were promptly sunk with massive loss of life, so eventually the Navy was a failure, then there were the airmen, who were to take the Vulcan bombers with nuclear weapons in a nuclear war, only nobody would use them. Huge expense, wasted money apprentices who were trained who then left for Australia, New Zealand, America, South Africa etc...and who has inherited all this? Gordon Brown, he has been left holding the parcel, the end of Empire, Suez has come home to roost.
Actually, I don't feel sorry for Brown at all, he is the final man holding a parcel which started way back, over a hundred years ago, with a liberal government with a conscience, a liberal party took us in to WWI, the greatest disaster inflicted by a country on its own people, and now, Afghanistan. Our end of Empire, the Americans, the Russians, the Chinese, the Japanese, the Germans, must all be laughing as we look at our war memorials with the names of our dead fighting wars all over the globe, and for what, for this, the End. It is a story of waste and hubris, and Blair (a scot) wants to be President of Europe. Please!
Complain about this comment
Andrew,
I have just looked up the expenses for my local MP, Ben Bradshaw.
It shows that for his last claim he has paid in interest, interest only, GBP15,108.93. Now I have to ask with interest payments of that size, who is it wih, which financial institution is the mortgage with, what is the actual size of the mortgage, and when is repayment due.
I'll tell you why I ask, because surely my MP may well lose his job, he is both an MP and a minister, so how does he propose to repay his mortgage if he suddenly leaves office, which is possible by this time next year.
So, I think all MPs should make a declaration, how big is the mortgage, who is it with , and how is it to be repaid. Now if I had to apply for a mortgage, then I would be asked what are your prospects, how do you propose to repay your mortgage, are you going to pay it down, or what is the expected inheritance, things of that type. Remember, the MPs switched out of Equitable Life just before it's collapse afterthe Court Ruling about guarantees, so come on MPs I don't think your emplyment prospects are very good at all, time to come clean.
Complain about this comment
Andrew,
sometimes I can be so slow. I have suddenly twigged the new Brown approach to Afghanistan. This is no longer the 'big push', or the 'we are advancing on all fronts', it's not even 'surge', no folks it is 'our mission'. Again he resorts to religious terminology, just like Bush and his 'crusade' Brown can't get away from his 'son of the Manse' his 'moral compass', for whom the bell tolls, a fitting epitaph.
He no longer has a dream, Brown has a mission, he is the ultimate missionary. The Queen will never refer to 'my government will...' in Novemebr, there must be an election in October, there must be, there is no mandate for 'this lot, it is time to end this waste of lives. Please note that there have been no deaths this week, why not? What is happening, surely the lives have not been lost just so that we can give purpose to a conflict, there lives must not have been in vain. That is why we are still in Afghanistan, we're here because we're here, because we're here...'
Complain about this comment
#69 menin
You are not alone in admiring these wind turbines. I also do not think they are too bad and certainly do not see them as a blot on the landscape. Quite like the ones in Cornwall. It would not bother me living next to them although I do not at the moment. No worse than by a railway line.
CO2 is a crude measure of the burning of fossil fuels but lets not forget that burning oil and coal does release other damaging particulates. Also in systems at equilibrium a seemingly minor change can have a major effect. Imagine a plate balanced on a knife. A breath of wind will cause it to topple. Risk takers will say there is no problem, risk averse stop all activity.
A big problem is the input of "capitalism" into the green agenda. The unerring feeling that it is just a mechanism to make money and introduce taxes by the back door. Any tax income on these measures should be ploughed back into so called green measures to reduce the burden. Fat chance of that happening.
Complain about this comment
#98
if the weather anywhere is anything like it is today then I expect that the wind turbines have had to shut down. Only a couple of weeks ago they were not working because there was no wind. Now there is a gale, a cold, howling wet awful weather day down here in the westcountry. If you were were thinking of coming down here on holiday, then don't, just don't bother. Message from the westcountry, it's truly horrible.
Complain about this comment
Good morning each & Andrew.
#99
Why not duel blade systems?
If there were smaller blades to idle in all but the stongest winds fixed to the same axle. Just a thought.
Complain about this comment
Morning all
Why is the head of the army producing an equipment shopping list after we this "big push"? Is this another example of a failure of planning? Did they ask for these items before?
Once again we see a diffusion of responsibilty through secrecy. Everywhere you turn incompetence is revealed at the highest levels yet no responsibility is taken. Banks, economy, social services, MPs expenses, Iraq, Afghanistan, MoD procurement, Learning and Skills Council Quango to name a recent few. These various bosses are paid huge sums to attract the talent! It that is talent I would hate to see the person at the bottom of the pile! Lets stop the promotion of the money-grabbers and get competent people at the top who want to do the job not take the money.
Complain about this comment
All
This is government investment:
College funding fiasco condemned
Message to Gordon Brown. Spending money is not the same as investment.
Why is this just a minor story on the BBC political webpage? Surely more important than the fact that someone is going to appear before a committee on the hacking into some minor celebs phones. Who cares? Substance before celebrity please BBC.
Complain about this comment
#97
Andrew,
I now hear that there are reports on the BBC of a dead soldier today. Killed by a roadside bomb, but how many injured. What progress is being made on the front line. How will Brown announce this death, will he go to parliament and announce it this morning, if he doesn't then he is treating the death of this soldier less than the previous ones, it was noted that he did not read out the names of the dead on wednesday before PMQs. What is going to be the process during the MPs summer holidays. We need to know, it is our mission, it is our war, end the occupation of Afghanistan, where are the Afghan soldiers and police which we are meant to have trained, come on Dannett where are they. The only thing which Dannett should have on his shopping list is the coffins for the dead soldiers, he's alright, he's retiring.
A question for Dannett, what is your pension going to be General, why have you not spoken out before now, and what are your plans for your retirement. I know that this is harsh, but I think that these questions are on the lips of many people. A family member of mine has an injunction preventing him from speaking out in public, why does this not apply to other army members, and current ones. I consider that the nations morale is being undermined, that the politicians are playing with our soldiers lives, bring them home, every life lost is sadly a wasted life. It is the politicians not the armed forces who have lost, the military do as they are ordered, they serve their Queen and country, not the commons.
Complain about this comment
#92 TAG
Wind farms can cause havoc with radar:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7227967.stm
I would think that a wind farm may affect thermal air currents, so flying a small aircraft overhead may not be the smartest thing to do. But you are right as man is very arrogant when building large hydroelectric dams say, with no regard for the environmental consequences.
I grew up in Sao Paulo, Brazil and every summer afternoon at about 3 pm we had a tropical thunderstorm lasting about half an hour. Then the Itaipu dam was built on the border with Paraguay. The daily storms stopped and were replaced by one or two violent thunderstorms each week. Flash flooding became common in areas where this had never happened before. Because the dam had created a huge body of water evaporation and precipitation increased but the patterns of rainfall were completely erratic. Things are more settled now but nature does not always take change in its stride.
Complain about this comment
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/jeffrandall/5845163/We-have-a-moral-duty-to-our-troops-pay-up-or-pull-them-out.html
Jeff Randall taking up the defence baton to beat the government again
Have to agree with most of his sentiments. How can you cut the MoD budget when you know that any cash shortfall may cause the death of some mother's son?
Complain about this comment
re #103
'What is going to be the process during the MPs summer holidays?'
They will be sticking their heads up each others... sorry, in the sand and hoping it will all go away.
They are culpable and they are beneath contempt.
Complain about this comment
Al Jebeeba seems to be carrying a story that the former two homes secretary wishes that she had managed to get some training before she took up her position
Maybe she should have said that before she took up the position
Complain about this comment
#107
Are there training courses for things like the Home Secretary's job? Home Secretary Beginners perhaps? Followed by Home Secretary Intermediate then Professional?
She didn't need training to make the most of her expenses though, did she? Quelle surprise, as they say.
Complain about this comment
Re: Jacqui Smith
I am not a fan of Ms Smith but I quite admire her candour for saying that - I bet her male counterparts would never admit that.
The serious point is that very few of these career politicians have any real experience - the civil service used to effectively run the departments and the Minister just fronted it but the civil service role has diminished with the introduction of all the special advisors.
How can a minister be moved from department to department and be expected to have a grasp of his remit - there is not enough continuity in the cabinet.
Complain about this comment
yellowbelly1959 85 86 87 88
Thank you for all the information contained in these and previous posts, it has helped my understanding of this subject of climate change no end.
I also concur with the conclusions you have to come to.
Complain about this comment
110 Susan-Croft
Thank you Susan.
Now I am no Luddite (I am a firm believer in hydrogen fuel-cell technology for example) and I do my bit by recycling, etc. We as a family have not flown on an aircraft since 2000, we holiday in this country, and travel only about 10,000 miles a year in an economical diesel car, so all in all, we have a pretty small carbon footprint.
What I object to strongly, is being lectured to either by politicians who hypocritically do not practice what they preach and seek to subjugate us with these new "green" taxes and laws, or by celebrities such as Madonna who travels the world at enormous expense to the planet (what is her carbon footprint, I wonder?) and lecture us on reducing our carbon emissions.
Can anybody remember the farce that was the Live Earth concert, what cost to the planet did that involve?
And the biggest hypocrite of all has to be Al Gore, whose 20 room, 8 bathroom house consumes 20 times the energy of the average American home!
What, by the way, is this farce of carbon credits, and carbon trading? All it does is allow the rich West to continue as before polluting the planet, but by using some fancy paperwork and hard cash, assuage their guilt, and at the same time somehow restricting what under-developed countries can do.
What good is it really doing banning the sale of incandescent light bulbs in this country, whilst China, responsible for 16% of the man-made CO2 emissions, continues to build one new coal-fired power station each and every week?
It is nothing more than tilting at windmills and trying to be seen to be doing something, whilst controlling us and keeping us in our place. Nobody from the government has given a satisfactory explanation yet how the third runway at Heathrow will NOT add to pollution and man-made greenhouse gasses, but it gets the go ahead anyway.
Complain about this comment
This is all stuff and nonsense.
We do not control the weather - the weather controls us. Throughout evolution man has adapted and changed to suit the weather, not the other way around.
Hurrumph. Brown wants to control us though, that's for sure. Will we let him?
Complain about this comment
It is a psychological fact that people can be controlled through fear. (Look at abused children and battered wives). This awful (words cannot describe him) "Prime Minister" is complicit in trying to frighten us with:
"Climate Change"
"Swine Flu"
"The war on terror"
and look how he is succeeding in some cases. People are going hysterical on the radio this morning about their children getting swine flu.
The BBC refuse to air any debate on it, saying the "science is settled", well silly old them. It will go the same way as "the hole in the ozone layer" which miraculously closed up with minimum publicity, the "global warming" which got changed after freezing snow this winter into "climate change".
We must not be naive. There is a lot to be said for common sense and instinct.
I know lots of academics and professors and to be honest, they are not balanced people. They don't have a degree in common sense and some of their lives are very dysfunctional. I wouldn't believe them when they spout off on climate change. I bet they are paid by the government to say it. Men / power / money!
Complain about this comment
eptic.
"I'm a sceptic now, says ex-NASA climate boss. The retired scientist formerly in charge of key NASA climate programs has come out as a sceptic.
Dr John Theon, who supervised James Hansen - the activist-scientist who helped give the manmade global warming hypothesis centre prominent media attention - repents at length in a published letter. Theon wrote to the Minority Office at the Environment and Public Works Committee on January 15, 2009, and excerpts were published by skeptic Senator Inhofe's office here last night.
"As Chief of several of NASA Headquarters programs (1982-94), an SES position, I was responsible for all weather and climate research in the entire agency, including the research work by James Hansen, Roy Spencer, Joanne Simpson, and several hundred other scientists at NASA field centers, in academia, and in the private sector who worked on climate research," Theon wrote. "I appreciate the opportunity to add my name to those who disagree that global warming is man made.
Theon takes aim at the models, and implicitly criticises Hansen for revising to the data set:
My own belief concerning anthropogenic climate change is that the models do not realistically simulate the climate system because there are many very important sub-grid scale processes that the models either replicate poorly or completely omit. Furthermore, some scientists have manipulated the observed data to justify their model results. In doing so, they neither explain what they have modified in the observations, nor explain how they did it.
"They have resisted making their work transparent so that it can be replicated independently by other scientists. This is clearly contrary to how science should be done. Thus there is no rational justification for using climate model forecasts to determine public policy.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/01/28/nasa_climate_theon/
Complain about this comment
Another NASA Defection to the Skeptics Camp
January 29th, 2009 by Roy W. Spencer, Ph. D.
"Something about retirement apparently frees people up to say what they really believe. I retired early from NASA over seven years ago to have more freedom to speak my mind on global warming.
You might recall that after Dr. Joanne Simpson retired from NASA she (trmm.gsfc.nasa.gov/3rd_trmm_conf/simpson.doc) admitted to a long-held skepticism regarding the role of mankind in global warming.
And who can forget NASAs Administrator, Michael Griffin, admitting that he was skeptical of the urgency of the global warming problem? After the outrage that ensued, I suspect he wishes he had never brought it up.
And now my old boss when I was at NASA (as well as James Hansens old boss), John Theon, has stated very clearly that he doesnt believe global warming is manmadeand adding climate models are useless for good measure. Even I wouldnt go quite that far, since I use simple ones in my published research."
Complain about this comment
Dissent by climate change sceptics, disparagingly described as deniers, is not tolerated by government bodies. The American Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has effectively gagged one of its own senior analysts, for daring to speak out against climate change orthodoxy:
"In March, the Obama EPA prepared to engage the global-warming debate in an astounding new way, by issuing an "endangerment" finding on carbon. It establishes that carbon is a pollutant, and thereby gives the EPA the authority to regulate it -- even if Congress doesn't act.
Around this time, Mr. Carlin and a colleague presented a 98-page analysis arguing the agency should take another look, as the science behind man-made global warming is inconclusive at best. The analysis noted that global temperatures were on a downward trend. It pointed out problems with climate models. It highlighted new research that contradicts apocalyptic scenarios. "We believe our concerns and reservations are sufficiently important to warrant a serious review of the science by EPA," the report read.
The response to Mr. Carlin was an email from his boss, Al McGartland, forbidding him from "any direct communication" with anyone outside of his office with regard to his analysis. When Mr. Carlin tried again to disseminate his analysis, Mr. McGartland decreed: "The administrator and the administration have decided to move forward on endangerment, and your comments do not help the legal or policy case for this decision. . . . I can only see one impact of your comments given where we are in the process, and that would be a very negative impact on our office." (Emphasis added.)
Mr. McGartland blasted yet another email: "With the endangerment finding nearly final, you need to move on to other issues and subjects. I don't want you to spend any additional EPA time on climate change. No papers, no research etc, at least until we see what EPA is going to do with Climate."
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124657655235589119.html
Complain about this comment
Climate change has not been caused by man - IT IS POLITICALLY DRIVEN.
http://www.knowthelies.com/?q=node/3284
Complain about this comment
The hypocrisy of Brown over global warming and CO2 emissions:
"Gordon Brown spent more than £4.6 million of taxpayers money on foreign travel over the last year twice as much as Tony Blair in his final year in power.
The Prime Minister did not once use a scheduled flight for international visits, instead chartering a series of private jets at vast cost to the public purse.
Mr Brown found himself under fire last night after it emerged that he made repeated trips to Paris and Brussels on chartered aircraft when he could have traveled far more cheaply and just as fast on the Eurostar.
His staff only used the high speed train once to return from Brussels. Other ministers regularly used the train and almost always took scheduled flights.
MPs criticised Mr Brown for running up such colossal costs during a recession and for making unnecessary air trips which produce greenhouse gas emissions at a time when the government is lecturing voters about the need to go green.
Details of ministerial travel for the period between April 2009 and March this year show that between them ministers ran up a total travel bill of £9.4 million.
It also emerged that ministers clocked up £6.2 million on 90 chauffeur driven cars last year up from £5.9 million last year.
Mr Brown and other Cabinet Office ministers had the use of seven cars at a cost of £426,200. Lord Mandelson's business department used six cars, costing £274,000.
Mr Browns predecessor Tony Blair sparked outrage after spending £750,000 of public cash on his so-called farewell tour of foreign capitals. But he only spent around £2.3m in total in his final year.
Mr Brown nearly matched Mr Blairs last thee months in just one trip in March, when he spent £743,341 of taxpayers money on a visit to France, the US and South America to drum up support for the G20 summit in London.
e spent more than £500,000 on two other occasions, once attending the G8 summit in Japan last July and again on a Middle East trip a month later.
More controversially the Prime Minister repeatedly chartered aircraft for relatively short trips. He flew five times to Paris and six times to Brussels at a total cost of nearly £200,000, when the Eurostar would have slashed costs dramatically.
Liberal Democrat transport spokesman Norman Baker, said: Gordon Browns travel has been at needlessly huge cost to the taxpayer and left a vast carbon footprint.
The Prime Minister seems to be living on a different planet to the rest of us - one where there isnt a recession and there isnt a carbon problem.
He added: Ministers are happy to pump carbon out of their luxurious ministerial cars, while telling everyone else they need to cut their emissions back.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1200284/Brown-spending-4-6million-foreign-travel-year-twice-Blair.html
Complain about this comment
yellowbelly1959
Again, very informative posts. It has been a concern of mine for a very long time the measures Government are adopting under the guise of climate change. Not being hugely knowledgeable in this area I have never been certain whether my cynical view had any foundation, as most people seem to not care, unaware or are also sceptical. Like you, I try to be energy efficient and as much as possible and try to play my small part to save the planet.
However my huge worry is that Government is using carbon credits and trading as a means to gain more tax. This can perhaps be borne out in certain industries (oil), where the Government first awarded carbon credits allowance that were 20% lower than actual usage.
Furthermore, when companies do extend or grow their business and hence carbon emissions are inevitably increased, there may be no additional allowance given by the Government and therefore the costs for additional credits are having to be built into economic justifications. I believe from acquaintances, that this was the case on 1st January 2008 when the power industry, at 1 minute past midnight all submitted their requests for increased carbon credits and the annual allowance for the year was used leaving nothing for the less savvy companies.
Over time this will become very important, because we need to retain industry and business in this Country. However, we are now already regarded as a high taxation Country and with the private sector shrinking at such a fast pace it is to be feared there will soon be nothing left to pay our taxes. Conversely, this puts further cost pressures on businesses which may push them into receivership as costs for carbon credits are on the increase (but have been a lot higher than the current price).
Like many other measures the Government have been putting on the individual, I believe that carbon taxes are just method of raising revenue. Furthermore, I suspect that these additional taxes will not be allocated to environmental projects.
As we only account for 2% of worldwide emissions, would it not be better to lean on Countries such as China and the USA who would make a greater improved impact (using the 80% 20% rule) on the planet. The Government should be doing more in the way of flood defenses and measures to preserve water as I believe this will be a problem in the future.
I feel like you and flamepatricia that Governments now use any method possible to control the thoughts and beliefs of people. Any dissenters of the Government line from whatever source, including scientists are derided. I find this a very frightening situation.
Complain about this comment
103#
In fairness TAG, Dannatt has spoken out before and has spoken out of turn before, so far as Broon is concerned too many times. He has cost himself the top job of Chief Of The Defence Staff, which that pension chasing salute grabbing buffoon Stirrup currently occupies and has been extended in. Dannatt cheesed off Gordon once too often. His pension isnt going to be what it could have been.
Dannatt is the type of senior army officer who comes around once every 15 years or so. Last one we had like him was Peter De La Billiere and before that AVM Bill Wratten. I've heard a recent story about Dannatt at the D-Day celebrations meeting Lcpl Ben Parkinson who was severely injured in Afghanistan and leaving the VIP arena with his wife and staying with Lcpl Parkinson for an extended period of time and pushing him around in his wheelchair. Trust me, this is not behaviour that is typical of the Chief Of The General Staff. The army know he will speak up for them and back them up and they have a lot of respect for him. He certainly gets my respect, a hell of a lot more than Stirrup, who I knew when I was still serving and when he was a lowly Air Commodore. Lets just say, in terms of effectiveness, Jock Stirrup is to defence what Ian Blair was to policing.
Complain about this comment
#120
I fully understand your point. I think that my thinking has been distorted by what happened with General Sir Mike Jackson who seems to be have done very well out the Iraq war and occupation. There was 'stuff' happening under his watch which many have found totally unacceptable. Also the way that he revealed in his recently published book that he took legal advice before accpeting the orders to go to war in Iraq. I don't think that enough has been made of that.
Furthermore, we also know that there is now an inquiry into the Iraq war, the situation before the war, the war, and the subsequent reconstruction, although I would prefer to use the term occupation. Remember, that it was in February that Hutton had to to admit in parliament that previous holders of his post had not given correct answers when asked in the commons about the numbers detained by British soldiers. There is a problem because of the trial of Colonel Mendonca and the finding guilty of one soldier who had to go to jail and was discharged from the army.
So, I fully understand what you are saying about Gen Dannett, it is always regretable that there are too many instances of people who do their job and then come out on retirement or close to it. As another example look at the governor of the bank of England who has been reappointed but is only now coming out and not being as supportive of the government as he possibly was before his appointment was extended into a second term. Please note that I am not a junior minister of the government who has been told to stop briefing against individuals, all these are my own thoughts on these subjects. It is just that I have my own experience of those who are being silenced by High Court Injunctions on quite spurious grounds because they don't follow the line.
I think that there is a problem with regard to the compensation culture which means that family members benefit from the death or injury to one of our soldiers, which does not compare to previous conflicts, and where all payments are subject to confidentiality clauses which mean that they are at risk if comments are publicly made without prior perusal by the MoD. The very same MoD which is actually bigger than the army which actually fights the battles. Too many Chiefs and not enough Indians if you ask me.
Complain about this comment
Good Morning Andrew,
for some time now I have been referring to the compensation culture of the army. I have just been on the internet this morning and now find that the MoD do not trust the soldiers. Apparently the MoD police have been investigating 284 compensation claims and have 'saved' several million pounds by either having the claims repudiated or greatly reduced. Is this the equivalent of WWI soldiers shooting themselves in the foot to get away from the front line.
So, what we now have is the media being fed stories about our brave soldiers fighting great battles and advancing in their mission, whilst the MoD is making sure that none of the same soldiers is making fraudulent claims for compensation, more or less treating them as skiving criminals. The MoD also seem to be spending huge sums on putting back togather two damaged helicopters to make one fit for duty.
So, what is going on, are our soldiers the best, or they cheats. Are they the best or have they been involved in extra-ordinary rendition and enhanced interrogation techniques. Are they the best or has at least one Flight Lieutenant been discharged disnonourably from the services for refusing orders. Are they the best or how many actually went AWOL during the Iraq conflict. Are they the best or have their been investigations into the over egging of acts of heroism to get medals. Are they the best or have some soldiers been found guilty of bringing home some of the money which should have been paid to the locals to keep them quiet. Are they the best or have the courts decided that the case against six Special Forces personnel should be held behind closed doors.
All is not well in the army, there are so many who are entitled to compensation who have been dis-suaded from action for fear of being constantly under surveillance to make sure that we are not being defrauded. That would seem to be what the huge number of personnel at the MoD seem to be doing, surely not fighting. The inquiry into Iraq must be extended to Afghanistan, this is getting to be a very dirty war.
Complain about this comment
#120 Fubar
#121 TAG
The following says it all about the MoD and its priorities, I think:
"Wounded soldiers seeking compensation for their injuries are being secretly filmed to check whether they are lying about their condition.
The Ministry of Defence has ordered its legal teams to make use of Big Brother undercover spying powers originally drawn up to deal with counter-terrorism.
All injured servicemen and women claiming compensation from the MoD have been sent letters via their solicitors threatening them with covert surveillance.
They are warned that their case will be passed to the MoD police to consider prosecution if there is suspicion of fraud.
Yesterday the ministry confirmed that since 2000 it had carried out such surveillance on almost 300 injured personnel who sought damages through the civil courts."
Complain about this comment
Morning all. Thanks Mods for keeping this blog open.
Deforestation, over-fishing, pollution, these are all man-made problems, caused by growing industrialised populations. Whether you believe in climate change or not, you can't ignore the damage we are doing to the environment. And there is visible evidence of this, especially in the northern hemisphere. Glaciers reducing in number, Arctic ice receding, damage to coral reefs, animal species in danger. I'm no tree-hugger but common-sense tells me we cannot continue as we are.
We can debate temperature change and green house gases, carbon off-setting and wind farms, but the small problem of feeding 8 billion people is a pressing matter. There is no doubt that droughts have had a damaging effect on agricultural production in the last few years. Again, how much of that is down to climate change is debatable but we can't stick our heads in the sand and hope that things will even themselves out again. Effective irrigation and use of resources are key as are developing new, more robust strains of crops. The other debate which everyone should be having is about population control. Equally as important as climate control.
Complain about this comment
Good morning each & Andrew.
#124
My answer to your penultimate question is 'Eat less meat'. More preferable to genocide or eugenics.
Complain about this comment
#124 TheBlameGame
Exactly. Carbon credits will feed and water exactly.......zero people. It is a con and a distraction from the real issues, but is used as a means of control of the population and a revenue raising exercise.
Complain about this comment
#124
Population control is important and for the following reason. I was conceived, but then what. There was one little egg and a sperm. Since then I have constantly used up the planets resources. Where have my bones come from, my blood, my flesh, my brain, my thoughts. So, no matter what I may think there is only so much resources on the planet. As soon as we are conceived we are the problem and never will be the solution, I've got a headache, have I actually written this or is it all but a dream, or nightmare. I know I think therefore I am, but what about the rest of you, am I alone on this planet, oh so terribly alone. Just a thought.
Complain about this comment
All this talk about the state of the Army, our Army, makes me sick as you would expect from my blog name. Sure there will be rotten apples in any organisation, politicians, civil servants in the MOD, even members of the BBC. But we (that is you and me) have an army fighting against an enemy who move seamlessly between Afghanistan and Pakistan, and who already have the Russians as a scalp on their belts.
We are not just fighting (according to General Dannatt) with insufficient numbers or the right equipment (while our allies sit in their bunkers probably heaving a sigh of relief at those unfortunate Tommies down there in Helmond). We are fighting for a government that is apparently briefing against its own top man,using Parliament (PMQs) to say that the Colonel and the Brigadier on the ground know more than the General. Even if they did know more, like say a broadcaster knowing more than the Director General of the BBC about programming, you put a top man in place and you go with the scalar process. Nothing works in business or public service unless the man in charge is properly supported and can lead without his so-called masters doing the dirty on him.
This all comes back to answering the questions about why we are there (dont give me that nonsense about protecting our streets, which I dont hear coming out of Merkel or Sarkozy. If it is about poppies then either burn them down or sell them to pharmaceutical companies for pain relief. If it is about getting bin Laden, then 100,000 troops on the ground wouldnt do the job.
Mr Brown should tell us now
Why are we there?
What do we hope to achieve and by when?
What help are we getting from our European allies?
What is our exit strategy.
Incidentally, if the MOD spent as many resources getting the right equipment to our troops rather than hunting the benefit cheats then perhaps there would be less casualties, and QED less potential benefit cheats. We could then sack the benefit cheat chasers, and reduce the size of the MOD, the cost of which could be used to provide more troops for General Dannatt. Who would be an armchair general...
The members of the MOD who are trying to crack down on benefit cheats (on what admittedly would be fraud - how many of those are there) are from the same service, of which I was once a member, who have tried to administer a system where government
Complain about this comment
Oops with that rogue para at the end.
Complain about this comment
On climate change recorded history and beyond, eg checking sunken fosilised and very ancient tree stumps, shows the climate has always been a variable. Perhaps we are too clever now with trying to say why.
I start from the premise that barring the odd meteorite and bits brought back by astronauts, there is nothing on this earth that has not always been here.
The arguemnt then is how conversion of matter that has always been here into other forms affects things.
Seems a bit ostrich like but I doubt it makes much difference. I mean an ancient volcanic erruption shows on trees as nil growth for 2 yrs. Now that is a big climate change. But we are all still here.
Complain about this comment
#130 Tunbridge
The rate of climate change is probably accelerating - it may well have happened anyhow. I distrust many of the "facts" like most of the sceptics here but there are sound economic reasons for following a fuel efficient programme and aiming for self sufficiency and whilst the odd wind farm may not solve our energy problems - they are not doing any real harm either and are a step in the right direction.
Complain about this comment
131 meninwhitecoats
With you on all that, no harm in doing things better.
I do tho often muse that should electricity, for example, be produced much cheaper at the point of generation, how much of that saving would filter down to the customer. Not much is my opinion. For two reasons, one greed by the company and two the organisation will still need the same amount to run itself.
Cant win can we?
Complain about this comment
132 xTunbridge
You might be interested in this quote from the 1950s about how nuclear generated electricity was to be the answer to all our problems, too cheap to meter!
"Our children will enjoy in their homes electrical energy too cheap to meter," he declared. ... "It is not too much to expect that our children will know of great periodic regional famines in the world only as matters of history, will travel effortlessly over the seas and under them and through the air with a minimum of danger and at great speeds, and will experience a lifespan far longer than ours, as disease yields and man comes to understand what causes him to age."
Lewis L. Strauss
Speech to the National Association of Science Writers, New York City, September 16th, 1954
[New York Times, September 17, 1954]
Complain about this comment
#133
I remember t-v newsreel of Heseltine saying much the same thing about the 'price' of electricity to a spectator at his opening of the West Way flyover at Marylebone. "Virtually free." To quote him.
Complain about this comment
130. xTunbridge
xT, I thought ice core samples taken from the Himalayas and from Antarctica supported the global warming theory?
=
133. 134.
It's much the same with new technology designed to make our lives easier.
Do we have more downtime thanks to computers. No, we just seem to put more pressure on ourselves to be even more productive.
Complain about this comment
135 TheBlame Game
I am sure somone has done some ice core based research and come up with a theory supporting global warming. But all of these are theories nobody really knows.
Many, myself included, have doubts.
The polar ice caps are shrinking. The researchers say this is proof.
Many, many moons ago the earth was one big ice cap with glaciers covering Britain for example. When they melted I doubt that the neanderthals, or whichever of our ancestors was around then , thought that this heralded bad times ahead. Quite the reveres I would imagine
I just dont know, and all those that claim to are guessing, with varying degrees of self interest.
]
Complain about this comment
Global warming/climate change/energy/etc.
The pattern of opinions emerging on here (possibly reflecting a significant slice of public opinion) seems to be roughly as follows:
1) Global warming or climate change may or may not be taking place as a consequence of mankind's actions, but it becomes irrelevant in the light of subsequent points.
2) Regardless of 1), it is sensible, and probably essential in the long run, to invest money and effort into developing the use of renewable energy, cleaner fuels, and improved, efficient ways of using energy. This is logical in order to aim for UK energy independence and to bequeath a cleaner, pleasanter, more civilised and sustainable world to our successors.
3) Population growth, seemingly being ignored by governments, is an increasing cause for concern and needs urgent debate. As yet, no policies have been suggested for dealing with this looming problem.
4) It follows from these considerations that UK government efforts to cut the country's carbon emissions - only amounting to about 2% of the world total - by taxing and bullying citizens into changing their way of life is a misguided approach. The focus should be on items 2) and 3), without pointless, irritating distractions.
Many details and shifts of emphasis have been ignored, but I get the impression that many people are thinking along the lines summarised - which basically eliminates futile debate about whether or not mankind is to blame for something that may or may not be happening and may or may not be amenable to control.
Complain about this comment
137 mike-jay
If thee and me and others can see this , ie us plebs, why cannot our politcal masters ?
And how then are they fit or entitled to be running the show ?
Complain about this comment
From time to time an ex-Minister speaks out against something he knows is wrong. So it is this morning with John Hutton, who has stepped into the row about General Dannatt, and the way in which the Government has been briefing against the army's most senior general (particularly at PMQs last week). If Hutton is saying give them the equipment and resources they need then he believes that the government is not doing so - why else would he (as someone who has been a Defence Minister) feel the need to speak out?
There are a number of decent men and women in the Labour party, who will speak out when they feel the Government has got it wrong. Sadly, we have to wade through the text and know the background to find out if this is a just a case of sour grapes for being sacked or a case of genuine concern.
If one life of a British soldier has been lost in Afghanistan through negligence on the part of the Government then it needs to be trumpeted so that we can bring them to account and avoid future disasters where possible. It is a sad fact that soldiers die in conflict but if their death could have been avoided then that puts a whole new complexion on how money is allocated and why.
The catalyst for the latest disaster started with the so-called "peace dividend" we reaped when the Berlin wall came down. The Tories kicked off the process of defence savings when it seemed that we had lost the number one enemy, and could wind down to a peace status. That was before Iraq and Afghanistan, which have both changed the defence landscape. We were the second largest contributor to those campaigns, even though we are very small relatively speaking in terms of wealth nowadays. If we are undermanned in Afghanistan then we either need to increase recuitment or reduce our commitment, perhaps by getting our allies, who are not allowed out at night, out of their bunkers. If we have the wrong equipment(some might ask why we would have the right equipment when the last time we fought a campaign in desert conditions (leaving aside the short first war with Iraq) was in Aden in the 1960s) - then we need to have an urgent review - something that should have happened eight years ago.
General Dannatt goes in August. The PM has had a say in who replaces him. We need to applaud the courage of General Dannatt and of John Hutton while hoping that the new Defence Chief will be as forthright and caring for his troops as General Dannatt has been.
Complain about this comment
Good morning each & Andrew.
#139
The Mail carries a slightly different tale this morning accusing Dannatt of refusing armoured cars for troops in Afghanistan.
Why we are in Afghanistan is one thing...why others are there and how happy they are to be there is pehaps why many other armies/governments place conditions on their deployment. We can hardly blame them for this.
Complain about this comment
#139
I would have had more faith in John Hutton if he had not waited until resiging before coming out. He was the minister in charge of all this. If he had the guts of our soldiers then he would have said publicly what the options were and then if Brown made the wrong decision then he should have resigned at the time, and explained to the public why. That would have taken real courage. I am getting so angry with people who are saying at the point where they are to leave the job, having secured their pensions that they disagreed with the policy, ot that the army is not being funded, and equippped properly.
Now some may or may not know of a family member of mine who did start talking, who told the truth as he saw it. What happens, he spoke at rallies, he spoke about lies and decets, and illegal wars, illegal activities. What happens, as Hutton explained to parliament in February of this year, some of his predessors in the job had not given parliament the full truth about detainees in Iraq. In the meantime my family member has a High Court injunction preventing him from speaking in public because he was in breach of contract. Freedom of speech, honour, the truth. We have lost in Afghanistan, despite what Johnson says on the Andrew Marr show this mornig, Parris is right.
Any government which reinforces defeat is negligent, we will have to talk to the terrorist, or freedom fighter if you live in an occupied country. Afghanistan can be controlled by Reaper and Predator, drones to you, we can sit in bases for as long as we like, it is like the wagon train, and forming a circle, slowly very slowly you may be able to expand the circle, but it will take years. It will be a long journey and actually the journey may not take you to the promised land, but the journey may be very interesting. Tell the truth politicians, you may learn something whilst on holiday. have a good break.
Finally for this posting thought your full interview aired late last night was exceptional. Hutton is a disgrace, well for me he is, others may or may not agree, but this wholeparliament must be sent to the waste to energy plant!
Complain about this comment
BTW
A word or two for those who will vote shortly...
"I am, indeed, far from desiring to increase in this kingdom the number of executions; yet I cannot but think, that they who destroy the confidence of society, weaken the credit of intelligence, and interrupt the security of life; harass the delicate with shame, and perplex the timorous with alarms; might very properly be awakened to a sense of their crimes, by denunciations of a whipping-post or pillory: since many are so insensible of right and wrong, that they have no standard of action but the law; nor feel guilt, but as they dread punishment."
Johnson: Adventurer #50 (April 28, 1753)
Complain about this comment
#138
It is something of a mystery, but they seem to be driven by soundbites for the media, 'expert advisers' badly chosen (usually for their weird, extreme ideas), opportunities for raising taxes and spending to create good impressions, and of course getting re-elected by showing how they've acted for the benefit of the country.
I read this morning that Germany is the EU leader in utilising wind energy, but they still haven't been able to close a single conventional power plant or achieve any reduction in overall EU carbon emissions. Apparently they will need to retain 90% of their existing fossil-fueled plants to cover for windless days, which usually occur in midwinter. Also, increased energy costs related to wind investment is thought to be damaging industry and losing jobs.
And the UK government is going to build 7000 windmills!
Once a party sets out its policies, they become deaf to criticism or advice, no matter how full of holes their ideas. I've written to MPs of all parties on a number of occasions, and almost always received a standard reply pointing me to a policy document or a speech by one of their ministers.
I remember only one exception. In the 1980s I wrote to Michael Hezeltine, criticising the rating system and suggesting an alternative approach. To my surprise, I received a long, handwritten letter in response, setting out in detail his objections to my views and his arguments in favour of the system.
But that was a rare event. I'm afraid we'll have to keep working in hope on the ones we've got.
Complain about this comment
Dominic Lawson always worth a read
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/dominic_lawson/article6719142.ece
Complain about this comment
#137,#143 Mike-Jay
Completely agree with you but heightening public awareness about energy issues will do no harm.
We are profligate in our use of energy and anything which will stimulate debate is worthwhile.
I think we can argue the case on pure economic lines - the climate change is to some extent a side issue.
Complain about this comment
#138
Fitness for running the show?
Just what are the tests that can/do determine this fitness?
Is it any more than toeing the party line?
Entitlement to running the show?
This is more than simply winning an election (the party must also win countrywide-ish).
All too often any entitlement to running anything is entirely in the gift of the PM and such responsibility is handed out to 'friends' who have not bothered to put themselves up for election.
We do this to ourselves by toeing the party line too.
Perhaps this time around we should vote for the individual candidate without thinking of party ties or none? We should vote with our heads and endure the ache of doubt BEFORE we vote rather than afterward.
Complain about this comment
TA Griffin. Population control. If you think about foreigners coming to settle here in their millions ad infinitum it is a nightmare. Each and every one of them creating new babies and those babies creating new babies, you know how it goes.
Just looking at that marvellous man Henry Allingham who died at the age of 113. He has umpteen grandchildren, great grandchildren, great great grandchildren. That is one individual and how we reproduce.
We have enough here already without foreigners adding to the millions.
This poor little island, where we have lost a lot of our agriculture and dairy etc. - we will be building on all the green fields and importing all the food. Not in my lifetime but I weep for my children and theirs.
Complain about this comment
flamepatricia
I am as "guilty" as the late Henry Allingham. Three children and nine grandchildren. I think that means my grandchildren will have 27 children and 81 grandchildren? Wow. Take it on another generation and the figures begin to multiply like Brown's debt. Should I have stayed single, and have done my bit for population stability? Or should I just accept that we (the fruits of my loins) will be contributing a lot of tax by the time Brown's response to global warming (2050) comes around?
Complain about this comment
Andrew,
I know that this is off subject as far as wind farms go but there are now reports that a Russian built Mi-8 transport helicopter has come down in Afghanistan. Now with the current furore over our lack of helicopters and the 'pooling' of equipment I sincerely hope that before any of our soldiers get into pooled helicopters that they are fully checked and correspond to our levels of competence beofre use.
This is also relevant with regard to who actually gives the orders on any joint operations. I hope that our boys are not being put at risk because soldiers from other countries are unwilling or unable to participate in some actions whereas the officers of those countries can give, and must have accepted orders given to our soldiers. This is one of the problems with a European or NATO army, who gives the orders, under whose laws, and what rights do soldiers have to refuse orders because they do not conform to the laws of their country.
Complain about this comment
It is quite irresponsible to carry on the way we are with the population increasing every year. Children are constantly born into to proverty. At the same time, the earths natural resources are being exploited by man, and the animal kingdom is constantly being forced from their natural habitat due to mans greed for land and resources.
Women in third world countries (for axample Africa) are producing 10 children when they have aids, and we have the Catholic church preaching there should be no control on reproduction. Britain should only grant aid to Africa on condition that certain critera are put into place such as instigating proper birth control policies.
In my opinion, clean water supply will also be a global problem in the future. In the past, wars tended to reduce populations to keep the balance in proportion. Looking to the future, measures must be taken to reduce the amount of children born because the present population explosion is unsustainable.
People should be restricted to how many children, if any they are allowed to have as they do in China. There are people having children in this Country merely to gain state benefits rather than for love and do not care for them properly. This means that the "underclass" in the country will grow as these people seem to be having the most children.
IVF treatment on the NHS should cease because encouraging people to have extra children or for their own purposes to me is wrong. If people want children, orphanages are desperate and always looking for good homes. I would suggest that a lot of people have children for the wrong reasons, merely due to fear of being alone in old age.
I believe the population is the biggest crisis we face in the future and no matter how unpopular, it is time realistic measures were put in place to deal with it.
Complain about this comment
150 SusanCroft
Flippin eck Croftie taking the bull by the horns on this one are you not?
"The underclass" is growing disproportionately . You might have added that immigrants also have large families. Hence certain places are now more than 50% from non indigenouus stock.
We dont have great wars now to thin down the population and we interfere
with natural control. For example when a natural predator such as flu strikes we do everything to frustrate it.Famine is solved by international food aid, hence the 10 kids in Africa now survive. So no wars, disease held at bay,natural phenomena thwarted, doesnt leave much to balance the act does it?
The places that really need to control birth rates, Africa, South America for example are populated by peoples not disposed to limit their profligacy and encouraged not to by religions of all kinds.
South America is more of a worry than Africa. The ever expanding populations eating up the rain forrests for space, agriculture and logging, will do for us all eventually.Now that IS causing climate change.
Perhaps China had a point after all.
Complain about this comment
148. Major. You are not guilty. That is just my point. Where I live there are millions and millions of foreigners, muslims, whatever. They are not here because they love this country. They are here to take advantage and they are filling up the schools and houses.
My point is, it is sheer folly for ANY government to have allowed this. Naive and stupid. Racist it is not. I don't care who they are. If the whole of Scotland moved down here I would say the same. It is just about the stupidest and most dangerous thing this Labour government have done.
AND they have allowed millions of drug pushers and terrorists in and say that is the reason we are now fighting in Afghanistan. To put right this government's mistakes.
I have said before and will say again, I think this government could be sued for allowing our neighbourhoods and life to be changed so dramatically without proper consultation with US THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE HERE.
Might not affect you Major but it certainly affects me and a vast section of English people.
Complain about this comment
Susan-croft
I enjoy your posts which are often original and challenging. However, I think you are way off beam on 150. It wasnt the Chinese who invented restricting families as you suggest but someone much more sinister. He didnt just restrict numbers, but who could have children by the colour of their skin, their hair and their eyes, and, to follow his logic through, ultimately who should live and die.
We have a real problem, which requires real solutions, one of which might be to restrict the amount of benefits paid so that (for instance) you dont get huge amounts for having huge families. As an example, if people are playing the system knowing that Child benefits are available for ten children as a multiple of someone having two then an upper limit on the size of benefits might discourage such people.
In my opinion we need a root and branch review of our entire welfare system to make sure that it supports people but does not act as a spur to scroungers, permanently unemployed who dont want a job, and our current open door policy. On the latter, it was not really very long ago that we used to quote our population number as 50m. It is now around 60m, and I saw figures recently that suggest 70m in ten years. You are absolutely right that this small island cannot support such numbers either in space or resources. Thus whichever government takes over in 2010 will have to promise some real immigration controls and a review of benefits as suggested earlier. Personally I would favour reviewing our membership of the EU, where the open door policy to 26 other countries means that a soft touch like the UK is always going to make us vulnerable.
I trust you wont mind me saying right problem wrong solution? Which you may well say to me...
Complain about this comment
153 majoretc
Certainly Hitler practised population control in very unacceptable forms but I am with Croftie on the Chinese being to the fore in a nationwide govt policy.
On the benefits side matey you are fighting a losing battle. If you really believe that "the underclass" as Croftie calls them get out a calculator to work out the benefits before they concieve then you are very much mistaken. They used to be called "beer babbies" the result of
post pub passion. The Family Allowance ,as it was, was a bonus.The main difference these days is that many have children by different fathers They will still have the kids so what do you do , not provide enough money for their upkeep? Bit right wing that. Take them into care ? Costs an arm and a leg.
Another one with no answer ?
Complain about this comment
xTunbridge 151
The rain forests are of deep concern to me, however nobody seems to have to guts to come out and say stop increasing your population in the name of religion. Stop having children who are born to poverty.
Africa is of concern to me because in the end when the west can no longer provide aid in enough quantities, which will happen, where do we go then. There are many children in Africa sold to become child soldiers in the Sudan. There are children born to mothers who have aids and are born to die from the same. We must find a way to deal with these situations and birth control is the only way.
In Britain I would restrict all no matter what colour, creed or religion to small families. We are over populated and it is time to face up to that. Perhaps if this were to happen parents would start to look on children as a much more precious gift.
Complain about this comment
gee it's all gone a bit awry on here, hasn't it? - let me have a think and I'll revert ASAP with what's needed
Complain about this comment
156 Saga
Awry ? All saving the planet stuff innit?
Needs more than a few electric windmills you know!
Complain about this comment
majorroadahead 153
Yes and we have taken over where he left off. Now parents are trying to decide what sort of child they have. It will not be long before they will be able to decide whether children have blue eyes, blonde hair and are they good looking enough. Already you have parents who think it is alright to produce a sibling who will provide another child with bone marrow or such, to make their ailing child well. What impression does that give the donor child of why it was brought into the world.
Yesterday I was watching some old TV footage from 1969, of pop stars. It was so refreshing to see faces which looked normal with crooked teeth and a style all their own. Now we see clones all looking the same, trying to be 20 years younger (because no one is allowed to look old any more) and having to follow the same format of good looks to be successful. We have lost the proper value of life anyway.
My thoughts are a reasonable policy to deal with our over population. In China they have already dealt with this situation and its time people stopped being politically correct and tell it like it is. Our world is not sustainable, the population is growing far too quickly and that needs to change. All children born should have a reasonable chance of survival, without poverty and it will not happen if we continue as we are.
Complain about this comment
XTunbridge
You conveniently missed out most of what I said on immigration, Europe etc, but that is alright if your only answer is "Another one with no answer". As to your answer of the Chinese being to the fore in a nationwide govt policy you are surely not suggesting that there is any merit for us in emulating the way the Chinese handled their population? I do see your point about the benefits system, and realise that any reform would have to take into account the need to provide support where it was needed. I was aiming more at the scroungers and those who view our system as appetising from afar, and pay their life savings to get here any way they can to take advantage of our boundless "generosity".
Susan-croft
As I said, I am not in favour of population control by legislating on how many children each citizen can have. However, I am totally with you and flamepatricia at the horror of the explosion in population as I noted at 153. 50m to 60m is bad enough, but at 70m it is totally intolerable. We cant support the present number so what it will be like in 10 years doesnt bear thinking about.
This government has totally failed on both those who can enter (through EU membership and asylum) and those who enter illegally. There was a time when it was very difficult to get into the country, but it is now an open door, and the more we look attractive through our benefits and housing policies the more people will want to come. Incidentally, I was horrified at Boris' idea of an amnesty on illegals. We need some strong controls on who comes here and how long they stay, and fast.
Complain about this comment
159 majoretc
I didnt refer to the europe/immigration bit of your post cos I agree. Only differed on the benefit ideas.
In case you misunderstand my last para , I meant another problem with no real solution.
The Chinese solution suits China. They are authoritarian in everything. It would not work here.
Complain about this comment
I think this started out as a reasoned comment by Mike Jay but it has taken on a different slant.
Before the recession we welcomed migrant workers to look after the elderly, build our schools and hospitals.
I do not think enough thought was put into the affect this would have on local communities but in the absence of indigenous workers it was the only way to get the crops in et al.
I believe we have a shrinking indigenous population and needed the migrant workforce to balance out an ageing society. For sure we need to have a civilised discussion about immigration, which does not play into the hands of the small minded and extremists but this discussion is in danger off plumbing the depths of xenophobia.
Living by the hinterlands I can travel for miles in empty countryside, the problem is that the population is all centralised around a central corridor and therefore appears overcrowded.
Complain about this comment
Good evening Andrew,
with regard to the situation of our army in Afghanistan I really don't remember any actual declaration of war, so can somebody tell me are we actually at war, or are we there by invitation. If we are there by invitation then can we see the terms and conditions of the invite, was it RSVP, and did we actually reply.
There should be a Memorandum of Understanding about what can be done, who is responsible, who can give and take orders, who pays etc...this document would surely clarify the issues.
As for the war and the reasons I have been reminded of the Fools and Horses sketch where Trigger says of a broom 'I have had this broom for eighteen years, it has had three handles, and six new heads, but it is as good as new'. The link is surely obvious, what is the purpose of the war, why are we there, is it another 'War of Jenkins Ear'?
Complain about this comment
82. At 8:22pm on 16 Jul 2009, sagamix wrote:
hey, where's Nick? ... has he been fired for pro Tory bias?
Maybe for an 'interesting' view on how you take on board news and views vs. how you broadcast it without troublesome contrary opinion:
The Blog Is Dead.....oh no it isn't, oh yes it is...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/digitalrevolution/2009/07/the-blog-is-deadoh-no-it-isnt.shtml
Our own Nick Robinson has recently confessed that he's stopped reading the comments on his blog
As the politicians some 'reporters' so like to wallow with, if you only set to transmit and never on receive, you might get unpleasant surprises if those you think are meekly absorbing your missives actually react to just being talked at as opposed to being engaged with.
We seem to be at an odd stage where those who used to dominate the news agenda are not liking the erosion of their (often less than objective, or benign) influence, and are trying to get back to the 'good old ways'.
Good luck with that.
Complain about this comment
xTunbridge
Sorry I did misunderstand your last para.
Complain about this comment
Good morning Andrew,
'our own Nick Robinson has recently confessed that he's stopped reading the comments on his blog'. Could one say that Nick has also gone into the same bunker as I think Gordon Brown has.
As soon as you stop listening to the people then you are finished. The trouble is that the one thing which Brown has power over is the agenda. He really does not like the people setting the agenda.
The Iraq war and occupation is a case in point. It was not the main news media which has forced our eventual retreat from Iraq in the way which the media destroyed America and Vietnam, it was the internet. The government lost the battle, the Iraq occupation was destroyed by the internet, the bloggers.
It will be the same with Afghanistan, and the same with Swine Flu. The government cannot control the newspapers and their internet sites. They cannot cope with the fact that the MoD has whole departments of people who monitor the letters and the postings to repudiate and denigrate the contributors. The box has been opened and can never be closed.
Your moderators allowed me to post on your site some time ago now with regard to Swine Flu. Of course there must be restrictions on travel. There must be controls placed on the movement of people, on the ways in which they congregate, football matches must be held behind closed doors, as must all sporting events. Down here in the westcountry the holiday hordes will soon be coming down to experience a holiday. Well if they come down here and start infecting us with their flu then our hospitals and GPs will not be able to cope with the influx. They too will be on holiday!
Brown does not have a clue, if Swine flu is going to be the problem which many of us think it will be then actions must be explained now. I say to all departments, but in particular the department for culture, media and sports, that cultural and sporting events must be held behind closed doors. The media must be forced to keep to the message, that there are dire consequences if we don't use the modern technology so that people do not have to gather in their masses, we have video conferencing, we the tv, the internet, there is no longer any reason why people should gather in the way that they have. We can even order all our goods and services, eg the supermarkets can deliver to our doors, we can order goods and services via modern communications. Older people and the infirmed can have a computer literate buddy to help them.
So, must we wait until we are visited by this upcoming disaster before the government acts. Can't they see the train hitting the buffers, or do they want to use the Swine Flu epidemic to say that we must cancel the elections, just like they did with the elections which were due to be held during the Foot and Mouth disaster.
Finally, I wonder if the government will find somebody who will rubbish and repudiate my comments, after all Andrew we all know how well your comments are received, I don't think that you and your moderators have given up like that Robinson fellow.
There must be an announcement from the government, in particular the department responsible for Culture, Media and Sport as to what they propose to do, what are the contingency plans, what are the risks of people getting together. It will be the winter when the Swine Flu will be at it's worst, just when people actually get together the most. There must be restrictions on travel, committees set up to monitor the movement of people, committees capable of restricting access to parts of the country where there are hot spots, entry to and from these areas must be restricted. This is an emergency, there must be times when parliament must be recalled, there is not only Afghanistan, there is Swine flu. How dare they go on holiday for so long, disgraceful.
Complain about this comment
165 TAG
The swine flu outbreak has been handled disgracefully.
If the way it was dealt with in Birmingham is anything to go by it has not been dealt with at all but left to run its own course.
It started in a schol in Handsworth with a pupil known to have visited Mexico. The medical authorites did nothing. And when it spread to many other local schools the medical officer said well as they have siblings that go to other schools it would wouldnt it !!!!!!
And this in the city that contained, in 1978 ,the last outbreak in the world of smallpox. A virus escaped from the university lab and infected one person and her immediate family. Only the initial contact succumbed.
But the then Birmingham medical officer quarrantined hundreds of contacts in their homes and it was a massive operation to provide them with food etc until the incubation period was over.
What a shower we have running the show today.
Complain about this comment
Charley Stayt on BBC Breakfast (what a breath of fresh air he is, we NEED him!). Put it strongly to the health minister Andy whatsisname on tv this morning:
"Are there any deaths from swine flu in Britain that DON'T have underlying health problems?"
He couldn't answer!
The whole thing is politically driven, as is climate change, to confuse and panic the public. To buy their bad publicity and what they are doing underhand (Brown, federalist).
Tut tut.
PLUS did anybody hear Alan Johnson let it slip out on Andy Marr's show yesterday morning that we have eight months before the general election?
By my calculation that means April / May ? Just as I said. They will combine the local elections (due in May 2010) with a general election as you can't get the public out to vote twice.
Tut tut.
Tangled web, Labour!
Complain about this comment
161. Stuff and nonsense! Come and see our local hospital. Stuffed full of foreign patients, non English speaking. Stuffed full of migrant workers (who you think are essential) who can't speak English. There is the highest figure of maternity ward deaths. They had the drug testing debacle which left people in comas and with burnt hands (remember it in the press?). My husband went into day care for a simple hernia op, ended up critical was sent home and our GP sent him back to hospital. I was put on to the "nurse looking after him" on the phone and when I asked about him she had NO other English but "he OK" which she repeated seven times. If she can't speak English why is she working in such a responsible position and how can she read drug instructions and administer them safely?
You are naive, very naive. We managed before without all this foreign complexity. Why not now? Get the benefit fraudsters trained and get the nurses being professional nurses. Restrict visiting hours to twice daily and maximum 3/4 visitors. In our hospitals we have great swathes of Indian families visiting one patient, brothers sisters aunts uncles parents grandparents ALL round one bed. When the nurses ask them to leave they say "no understand" or disperse then come back again. Dreadful - have YOU experienced that? Tell me!
Complain about this comment
My post 167 I meant to write "bury" bad publicity not buy it! Woops, typo!
Complain about this comment
#167
Very good spot. However, I still think that the election will be held in October, I can't believe that we can have a Queens speech with this lot in parliament.
There is a problem though and that is I watched a programme on ITV last night about some event which takes place in Windsor, which the Queen attends. Now my problem is this. We are told that the public finances are ina dire state, that we can't afford all the equipment required by our brave soldiers. Yet it would seem we can afford fine breast plates, ruritanian type uniforms, and what is it with the horses. Can we seriously afford all this stuff. When the soldiers parade through the towns and cities they seem to be in their battle fatigues, what about cutting back on all the finery. Same with all the robes and ermine in the Lords, let's get rid of all of it, nothing at all wrong with a simple suit and tie, we are no longer a world power, let's stop looking so ridiculous, it is all about power. All the Lord Mayors, why the regalia, get rid of it all. Let's live within our means. Same with the aircraft carriers, it is not about using them, it is about building them, jobs, we acn't afford them, same with Trident. we are bust and the sooner we admit it the better. Do you seriously think that they will send out aircraft carriers without Frigates, remember the film 'They were expendable'.
Complain about this comment
TAG It is certain that Nick and Andrew do not read these blogs.
However, there are members of the Press who do and, of course, other members of society and general public.
Complain about this comment
#168 Patricia
Why am I not surprised by your response?
I am far from saying we should have an open door policy but in recessionary times the immigrants always get blamed for everything by the small minded.
How do you suppose the crops get picked in Herefordshire? - some migrant labour is essential.
With regard to hospitals you should blame the management who for cost reasons prefer to employ foreign nurses and doctors.
I can assure you that I am welll aware of The NHS's limitations having ferried an aging parent backwards and forwards over a 12 year period.
Complain about this comment
163. JunkkMale
In some respects I can't blame NR for not reading the comments, they can degenerate into mudslinging. The easiest solution for him is to stop blogging.
PS
I see Damian McBride's repatriation has begun... where else but through the BBC (Radio 5) and it's print manifestation, the Guardian.
Complain about this comment
Good morning each & Andrew.
#173
Damian McBride was also on the Today show to reinforce the notion that GB was 'shocked' to learn of his e-mail etc. doings.
"Yea right!"
Complain about this comment
172. Meninwhitecoats (!)
Are you a scientist - only joking?!
Crop picking can and should easily be done by those skivving off work and receiving benefits. They would actually build their characters and become healthy.
No, it's gone too far now to rectify. With all the expertise and graduate brains, sociologists, etc. available the government should have studied the likely outcomes and effects - but I don't think they even knew or cared and that is why there is no actual control.
I am not small minded. I am one of a growing number who is actually badly affected. Believe it or not, where I live, the borough is 80% foreign. I am actually an ethnic minority in my own land!
Even the foreign GPs and dentists put their own before us English, where I live.
Complain about this comment
170. TAG Her Majesty's horses and their related expenditure is but a drop, believe me!
Our Royal Family is admired and respected throughout the world and it is a great source of revenue from tourists. I actually know for a fact that people abroad are avid readers of articles and magazines depicting our Royal's lives and our pageantry.
Come on now, have some charity in your heart!
The armed forces are something else, well and truly. The government could have directed millions to our armed forces' inventory had they not sent out silly swine flu leaflets to each and every one of us. How much that that stupid exercise cost, eh? eh?
Complain about this comment
Damien McBride in his haste to "big up Gordon Brown" is now allegedly repenting.
Make no mistake the publicised emails will have only been one of his mistakes. The others were not brought to light.
Complain about this comment
BlameGame, I do agree that the only way of taking R4's slot for McBride this morning is a blatant attempt to paint a rosy picture around him and allow Labour to ease him back in. It's one thing to let him tell his side of the story but if the presenters are not going to challenge him for what he is and what he has done then at least bring someone in "from the other side" to tear him to shreds for a bit of balance. Listening to him today it was as if he was a choir boy merely retaliating for years of hate PR from Tories et al. Still, it's what we've come to expect from Auntie.
Now that politics seems to have shut down for the summer (and half the autumn) I wanted to comment on something Portillo said on the last "ThisWeek". He was mourning the loss of reform fever, and he is absolutely right. He was saying that with everything falling to bits around our ears there has never been a better time in our lifetime for reform. If a fairer, more people oriented system could rise from the ashes of the old, it would give some purpose to all the pain and suffering.
With Economic ruin, Smeargate, Expensesgate and two of the most damning polls in history, Labour just put their fingers in their ears and sing "La, la, la, la, I'm not listening" and the drive for reform and hot debate by the three main parties gets replaced with a weariness from the public. It doesn't matter how many times and in how many ways the public tell Labour that they want a vote, a new mandate, Labour just drag it out to the bitter end until the hunger for reform is replaced with a desperate "Anything but Labour". The next government won't have to cede anything back to the public just so long as they are not Labour. I used to think that a decade of Spin, lies and deceit had to be Labour's worst crime. That is probably still the case, but denying the public a real chance of timely reform, especially before the next phase of Euro federalism is stitched up too, has to be almost as bad.
Complain about this comment
With all the bigger interviewers away on enforced break McPoison has to do the rounds with the easy people
the Grauniad and al Jabeeba...
Toady and Victoria (slight laugh) Derbyshire?
Now his memoirs are worth zip if Brown really didn't know what he had working for him.
...all after Parliament has gone into recess, and brings Smeargate to the top of the news pile again to bury the Tory and Limp Dems proposals on reforming our broken financial regulations
Complain about this comment
Thank you for your comments on the population question. I found it very interesting and informative.
On the subject of immigration I did not sense there was any particular prejudice against immigrants merely a frustration in trying to find an answer to this difficult question. Most immigrants do not come to Britain to work, they come to provide a better life for their families. This in itself is not a bad ambition as we would all want to the best we can for ours. The question needs to be asked though why is it always Britain they want to come to. Some immigrants come here to use our education and health system. Some come for the benefits and housing. Some come to do the work our people will not do and some are foreign prisoners who have fell into crime since coming here. The fact remains that a good deal of the immigrants are unskilled workers, who will in turn in this recession come out of work. We already had 3 million long term unemployed when Labour came to office this figure has not improved therefore it is reasonable to suppose that there was no effort made to get our own people back to work during the boom years. With a shrinking private sector and another 3 million added to our unemployed (though personally I believe it will be higher) and tax receipts diminishing the problem is that we cannot afford any more people as the amount we have already is unsustainable. We may say that a few more people makes no difference however with a population already too high at 60-70 million in the future these people will have children and grandchildren the needs of this amount of people will never be met. It is all very well to say there are still open spaces to be built on, however do we really want to cover every square inch of England with cheap housing. Furthermore our services that were already under pressure before recession will in no way be able to cope with increased population. There will in the future never be a chance of full employment now either. Nothing less than complete ceasation of immigration will solve this problem. Along with this we must, I feel, bring down the population we have already, by means of compulsory family planning. Smaller families are essential in the future to curtail the population.
Under these circumstances of a compulsory stop to population, people in Britain will not doubt shout about freedoms. So perhaps it would be wise to analyse exactly what freedom means. Does it mean doing what you want, how you want, when you want. Or does it mean always trying to do the right thing for now and future generations, does it mean taking responsibility for your society around you and taking the right measures to ensure a better future for us all. To me it is the latter, whatever problems you store up for the future, authority will find more sinister ways to solve. We are always very busy in Britain telling other Countries what our ideas of freedom are whilst gradually losing our own. We are no longer in this Country allowed to address difficult problems because we lean over backwards to pacify any organisation which seeks to undermine our social fabric. They now have the voice not those of commonsense. I had hoped that this crisis in the economy would have changed the publics views on what they expect from Government. However I see there has not been a revolution and we seem to think we can carry on just the same. Even politicians seem to believe this too. We have as a public ignored so many important issues in order to continue with our spend culture, all done in our name, it seems this will continue. No sense of urgency for an improved future seems to have been brought forward. Britain is therefore consigned to the dustbin of history.
Complain about this comment
TAG 165
You are right to be angry about the Government's lame and ineffective response to swine flu, but your draconian solution is totally impacticable. If it comes to that the country grinds to a total halt. No imports or exports, no shops or markets, no-one to provide internet services or television. No police because they might be infected. No ambulances or medical services. Or flights or trains or buses. Following on from your suggestion that sporting events should be behind closed doors, why we are holding them at all if that logic applies? What about the players and officials? Wont they get infected? And infect their families and people they come into contact with?
How would you impose controls on the movement of people as you suggest. It sounds a bit like the way it was when I was a small boy in the war - barbed wire on the beaches, men patrolling at night to ensure curtains were drawn etc etc.
The most important thing is to get the vaccine and to vaccinate people as soon as possible. They said they had enough for half of the population. Where is that vaccine and why arent we getting it?
If you stop movement of people then nobody goes to work, and the country grinds to a total halt. Forget the credit crunch - a total halt induced by swine flu would relegate us to third world status, which some think we are already after years of Gordon Brown, but at least he didnt invent swine flu (as far as I know..).
I dont underestimate the threat - I was paralysed ten years ago and am thus in one of the high risk categories. But life has to go on, and shutting down the country is not an answer. But you are totally right to sound alarm bells and to press for proper action, which the confusing messages from the Government do nothing to help.
Incidentally, in earlier posts there was a discussion about restricting the number of babies. If the Government's suggestion that we should stop indulging in you know what there is an immediate answer to that problem. Funny how you can get the right answer sometimes fronm a totally different question....
Complain about this comment
What makes me amazed about swine flu vaccines is that, as with ordinary seasonal flu of which I and my son both receive a shot each autumn, it is not intended to treat flu which you may already have.
Has anybody ever been to the doctor with a "virus" to be told there is no treatment for a "virus", it has to take it's course?
The whole thing stinks to my mind. The government do not actually know what the hell they are doing.
The public, especially pregnant mothers and those with very young children, are hysterical now with fear.
and Andy Burnham could not give the answer on tv this morning to the question from Charlie Stayt:
"Has anybody in this country WITHOUT underlying health problems actually died from swine flu?"
I think it's a medical and NOT a government issue, don't you?
Complain about this comment
Susan, people keep saying immigrants are here to work. Well, many might.
Where I live there are thousands of them walking about the streets all day long, men, women and children, chattering in their own language and definitely NOT working.
Our local council has acquired lovely houses and put them into them, consequently the areas have become slums.
Complain about this comment
For all you political refugees - Nick's blog is open again.
Come again soon!
Complain about this comment
Have seen it 184. but it seems to lack the facility to add comments, unless it's a fault my end.
Complain about this comment
fp @ 183
I have a very simple solution to all this ... for every immigrant IN, one home grown bigot kicked OUT ... how's that?
junk @ 163
Nick Robinson has recently confessed that he's stopped reading the comments on his blog
that implies that used to read them ... which I doubt
Complain about this comment
Saga likes living in his slum!
Complain about this comment
182 flamepatricia
The government do not know what they are doing.
---------------------
I have to agree. Burnham has been promoted well beyond his abilities. So many statements or rebuttals are contradictions of previous views or strategies. That BA and Virgin are establishing their own criteria for who can travel, is essentially a two fingered salute to the authorities.
I am not sure what I am supposed to do if I become ill and i am sure that others are not entirely sure either. The UK in my view moved away from containment with indecent haste - China's actions in placing the English school kids in quarantine seem sensible.
The thing that the gov is ignoring is that their misguided and misleading communiques are read very closely by foreign gov health services who in turnwill advise their citizens on whether it is safe to travel to the UK. Using scare tactics such as saying that up to 65,000 people may die this winter could rebound spectacularly on us.
What big event is happening next summer attracting people all round the world? Yup the Olympics, and although no precedent exists I am sure that the IOC in the interests of health and safety would have no hesitation in cancelling or moving the event to another venue. Shame we spent all that money.
Complain about this comment
185. At 2:20pm on 20 Jul 2009, flamepatricia wrote:
Have seen it 184. but it seems to lack the facility to add comments, unless it's a fault my end.
-------------------------
Me too. I wrote a comment, clicked on "Post Comment" button, the window was refreshed but the comment disappeared. Well at least Nick can say with certainty that he cannot read any comment.
Complain about this comment
fp @ 187
yeah yeah yeah ... listen, given that any part of this country is better off than every part of most other countries, I cannot for the life of me see why you are forever moaning your face off about "foreigners" ... a.k.a. people who are not exactly the same as you and I .. after all, what have we ever done to deserve living in such a privileged corner of the globe, except get lucky in the Big Birth Lottery?
Complain about this comment
Andrew,
I have to say 'click, click' sorry I thought the line went dead there for a minute, but I am truly sorry about some of the things I have said on the various blogs over the last few years. It is because of 'no listen do not interrupt this is important' that people like Mcbride have had to dirty their hands with regard to repudiating some of the appalling stuff I have said. Brown does pick his nose, no this is serious please do not interrupt me, and eat it. There was the evidence on some of the internet sites but they must have been doctored. Furthermore, he is not, contrary to earlier postings, an aspidistra, that was a serious mistake on my part and it beciase of comments like that that McBride had to resort to his e-mails.
No I am shamed, as for the fact that certain individuals have had High Court injunctions taken out preventing them from speaking freely in public, in this I must be wrong. You see on sunday i watched the Andrew Marr show and there was a soldier and he was speaking very freely, about the book he has writte. Now how can this be, he seemed to support the war in Afghanistan, and asserted I think that we could win, and that we must not leave. Could it be that the government will allow people to speak as long as they toe the party line.
I am sorry for the pain I have caused to Brown, it must really hurt him. as for me being cynical about his wife well I am wrong on that front to, she does a wonderful job for charity and is beyond repraoch. In fact she is so good that Gordon ought to stand down with immediate effect, and be replaced, without a vote, by his wonderful wife, Sarah.
so McBride, i can only hope that you will be able to return to the civil service, a view you espoused this morning, to continue in your taxpayer funded career.
Now then where was I, oh yes about that Mr de Menezes, Dr David Kelly, Mr Tomlinson, the retreat from Iraq, the extra-ordinary rendition, the enhanced interrogation techniques, water boarding etc...the retired general who now works for a company supplying contractors, the funding of an illegal war, oops sorry my time is nearly up, must go, got to leave the library before I catch that Swine Flu.
Complain about this comment
190 saga
My friend you really are the epitome of the glass half full syndrome.
FlameP is a bit hot worded but I know where she is coming from. I love going round the 100% Asian areas and drinking in the atmosphere and sampling the shops. But I am damned glad I dont live there any more.
The old word "inegration" meant , to me, that the incomers fitted in and we adopted anything good they brought with them. So we got a harmonious mix,as has been the case back however far you care to go. OK the Roans for one forced their way on the Brits by military strength. The latest invaders have done it by strength of numbers.
I think it was FP who mentiond the multitude around Asian patients beds in hospitals, she forgot to mention that they will also have taken all the chairs from the other bedsides. I actually enjoy the arrival of the Islamabad flight at my local airport. 300 on the flight 1500 to meet them. The faces of those coming back from package hols when they emerge into the terminal is a picture. Having every airport car park space taken up is no great hardship. Different strokes for different folks I suppose. Just wish the the "mix" idea worked.
Complain about this comment
Forgot Nicks site is not accepting comment. love the little line above the box; "There have been no comments made here yet".
Oh yes there have but the disappear loke Nick did.
Complain about this comment
#190 Saga
"I have a very simple solution to all this ... for every immigrant IN, one home grown bigot kicked OUT ... how's that?"
..well this blog would be empty today.
Complain about this comment
re Nick Robinson's blog
The comments are being pre-moderated so I suppose Nick is weeding out any he doesn't think are up to scratch before publishing them. That might be called censorship... I couldn't possibly comment.
Complain about this comment
186. sagamix wrote:
fp @ 183
"I have a very simple solution to all this ... for every immigrant IN, one home grown bigot kicked OUT ... how's that?"
LoL
Saga for Home Secretary!!
If only it was that simples.
*****
Home Office Newsflash:
"The Joint Terrorism Analysis Centre (JTAC), which operates independently of Ministers, has changed the UK threat level from international terrorism from SEVERE to SUBSTANTIAL."
"The decision to change the threat Level is taken by JTAC independently of Ministers and is based on the very latest intelligence, considering factors such as capability, intent and timescale. Substantial continues to indicate a high level of threat; and that an attack might well occur without further warning. The threat level is kept under constant review."
"The(*) means that a terrorist threat is a strong possibility and an attack might occur without further warning."
I wonder if this is timed to defuse some of the flak the government is receiving on Afghanistan. i.e. who needs additional helicopters, it's working folks.
(*) Appears that proof readers have been early victims of departmental cuts.
=
Nick's Blog
189. excellentcatblogger wrote:
"Me too. I wrote a comment, clicked on "Post Comment" button, the window was refreshed but the comment disappeared. Well at least Nick can say with certainty that he cannot read any comment."
As Nick says: Surreal.
Andrew, keep an eye on those postal votes in Norwich.
Complain about this comment
meninwhitecoats 194
I think is a little harsh, are we not supposed to talk about a problem in our Country. My argument is population, I am very concerned where all these people are going to housed, the services needed etc and how they will be paid for. I do not want to see people living in poverty. I am afraid just to try to shut down a discussion by saying we are prejudice does not make the problem go away. That is why the BNP have gained ground by people refusing to allow discussion.
I am however open to any ideas you have of how we can deal with our economic problems, continue to have immigration and still afford to survive as a Country. How many people do you realistically believe Britain can take?. Where will the jobs come from to support all these people.
I also think to call people bigots when they actually have the courage to speak their minds is completely wrong. Are you really saying people should leave the land of their birth simply because they have a different view. If that is the case then I believe that your stance on this is as bad as what you accuse others of. Why are you so closed minded on this subject?
Complain about this comment
Susan, I know what your game is - trying to weave me into your web again, aren't you? - well, it won't work 'cos we're "On A Break" ... you know, like Ross and Rachel in the third series of Friends
Complain about this comment
xtun @ 192
of course there are issues with an increasing population and (different but related point) a more diverse one, but (IMO) there's no need for so much Doom and Gloom about it - I guess, in a sense, I feel the dead opposite to the Flame Patricia construct in that I can't see the attraction of living in a place where everyone looks/sounds pretty much the same and shares a common cultural heritage - that seems quite sterile to me ... and stifling
Complain about this comment
#197
Susan
We were crying out for cheap labour when it suited us - two years ago we could not get enough of it.
At that time it was almost impossible to recruit and keep manual workers and companies were unable to service clients because of lack of labour - how things have changed!
Arguably we should have concentrated resources on getting some of our own long term unemployed back in work but we are where we are.
I am not trying to supress discussion merely disappointed at the level to which it can drop. There seems to be a distinct anti Asian bias from other bloggers.
Complain about this comment
Andrew
What about donning your pith helmet and khakis and dedicating a programme to exploring the 'long grass'? All those "under investigation" or "under review" cases or unanswered questions: the pensions and trusts scandals, a protest march death, alleged tax dodgers, slippery backhanders, dodgy letters on headed paper, various banking stitch-ups, offshore donors, procurement disasters, etc. etc. The ones the government or opposition would like to fade away. Who's been paid off? Which cases are still ongoing? You could make a series out of it.
We soon forget, through a combination of apathy and sensory overload, many of these issues that in the past would have done governments irreparable damage, but are now more-or-less par for the course.
Complain about this comment
meninwhitecoats 200
First I must apologise for my typing error in 197.
I was just surprised by your post agreeing with Saga because normally you are so tolerant and add so much value to a debate.
I agree with you about cheap labour and that we are were we are. The Government is most certainly to blame for allowing immigrants to do the jobs our people will not. I also understand your point about tolerance. However I am really concerned about how we move forward as a Country. I really do fear that if we do not do something about our population there will be so many people living in poverty particularly children and elderly people, who are the usual victims of poor services and lack of money.
I must confess though, my concern is much wider in that population is not just a problem for Britain it is a worldwide one.
Complain about this comment
200 MeninWhiteCoats
You may not intend to suppress discussion but that is the effect of your hyper critical response to other peoples words.
If you cannot see that the Asian immigration is the largest, most different in every way and that the efffect of that is more noticeable than any other group then Sir you must have blinkers. Such a difference that has effected such large and rapid change causes unease.
I lived for years in a downtown area that was popular with immigrants. Had some great times with black, brown and everything in between. Still remember the gorgeous West Indian lass nexdoor begging me not to sell to and Indian when I was moving on.
You mention the recruitment problems of 2years ago. I remember Enoch Powell as MInister of Health advertising for NHS workers in the WEst Indies. Now we all know that ended in his tears.
Complain about this comment
200 Meninwhitecoats
I think you should have added the word some in your final sentence, between from and other.
Complain about this comment
Nick is now accepting comments but nowt showing before 5.27 ????????????
Complain about this comment
sc @ 202
I was just surprised by your post agreeing with Saga because normally you are so tolerant and add so much value to a debate
oh very nice, Suse! ... you're making me sound like the school Bad Boy who decent kids shouldn't hang about with
Complain about this comment
Yvette Cooper was having a good time in Parliament today, spending half of her time when she was meant to be explaining the Child Poverty Bill's second reading by slagging off the Tories. It sounded very much like it had been written by her husband, no doubt aided and abetted by Lord Snooty. Child poverty doubled under the Tories and has halved under Labour was what I thought she said to the handful of MPs who had bothered to turn up for the debate. So much for the importance that all of them put on eliminating child poverty, which anyone with even a modicum of sense of care and fair play would have recognised as one of the most important debates at any time, but particularly now with rising unemployment.
Up stood an MP whose name I didnt catch and announced that the figures the Minister was quoting of reduced child poverty were wrong, in that it has actually risen since 2004 (he mentioned two figures of 400k and 200k, which Theresa May picked up on in her response.
The bubble of the hitherto cocksure Ms Cooper was totally blown, and, in the absence of someone to tell her she was talking Balls rather than facts, she ended rather lamely. I love politics, but I hate with a passion this obsession with Na Na Na Na Na rather than concentrating on putting across what the Government is trying to achieve. All three parties are guilty of this, but if this is an indication of what we are going to have get used to in the run up to the next election god help us. I think the ordinary voter (most of whom do not watch the Commons) will respond to sensible electioneering, including pointing out the difference between their approach and that of the other parties where appropriate. If Cooper had a good story to tell she should have told it. I bet Anne Trenneman will have a field day with this one tomorrow.
Complain about this comment
203 Tunbridge
"If you cannot see that the Asian immigration is the largest, most different in every way and that the efffect of that is more noticeable than any other group then Sir you must have blinkers. Such a difference that has effected such large and rapid change causes unease."
Is asian immigration a problem or is the british asian community simply expanding? I don't know the answer.
Having worked and studied with people from the middle east and the sub-continent, I don't have any fear of other cultures. I will admit that asian culture can be a bit exclusive because of the strong family ties within their community, maybe we could learn from that?
This exclusivity can alienate other people because the asians sometimes form a community within the community - but often that is to protect themselves from what they perceive to be the worst excesses of our liberal culture.
I apologise if I seem to be hypercritical but I am entitled to voice my disagreement and some of the posts are distinctly dodgy.
Complain about this comment
208 meninwhitecoats
You comments are welcome as are those of others. Only by such interchange of ideas do we advance.
I think the only consistently strong anti I have seen on here is anti Scot.
And thats down to them as lives here and rules us. The Jocks back up where they belong are fine.(Joke)
Complain about this comment
As a diversion you may have already seen the story about the 10 year old German girl who was born with half a brain. She now has both fields of vision in one eye, which is unique.
Scientists believe the girl's brain rewired itself during its development. Scans show that the retinal nerve fibres which should have gone to the right hemisphere diverted to the left. Apparently, she is a bright and intelligent girl, which is a fantastic story.
While nothing to compare with the girl's experience I have had some awareness of the strange behaviour of the brain following my paralysis with Guillain Barre Syndrome. It seems to me that my brain still operates pre the paralysis, so if for instance I try to step over an obstacle my brain says "lets go" expecting my feet to pick up but my feet dont always follow the instruction, which is amusing at times but can also be painful.
Just by way of a diversion from the trials and tribulations of life.
Complain about this comment
210 majoretc
Does this mean she can do the distance thing unlike people with one eye ?
And what about all the other left right functions ?
Got a link to this article ?
Complain about this comment
xTunbridge
I thought you would be interested. I saw it on my TalkTalk/AOL page under the heading "Half-brain girl sees all in one eye" It is supported by a piece about Glasgow University's Dr Lars Muckli from the Uni's Centre for cognitive Neuroimaging, which might provide another link other than AOL. Apparently, there is added excitement at the prospect that if they could understand how the brain does it it could be applied to computers and artificial intelligence.
I think the piece suggests from the "sees all" part that all means both short and long vision? She did have seizures when she very young, but medication has solved that and the article is suggesting that she can do almost everything. I always find it amazing how the body can adapt to change, although the girl would not have known it as a change. People laugh when I tell them that for six months I lay in bed watching how people walked, because I wanted to know what to do if I ever got the chance again. I was amazed to see how many different styles there were, many I suppose to cope with each person's physicality?
Hope you find it OK - if not I will type it out here.
Complain about this comment
212 major etc
Did you ever see that Scandinavian, I think, experiment, yonks old so quite crude, where they fitted boxes on a couple of chaps heads that turned the world upside down ?
The came out hanging on to anything and everything but in a short while they were walking about ok. Then they took the boxes off and they were back to clinging on for balance.
Aye, the brain is a fantastic puzzle.
Complain about this comment
xTunbridge
I know the feeling well. In darkness I am also totaly unable to walk, and cling on to things for dear life.
Complain about this comment
Major
Followed your story through about the half brain girl, it really is quite amazing.
Hope your recovery is continuing - having seen family members cope with strokes the ability of the brain to compensate never ceases to amaze me.
Complain about this comment
Andrew,
just watched James Parnell on the Newsnight programme tonight. What a disaster. Brown is so finished it is actually embarassing, I know I can't spell, as for punctuation well it never was my strong point. Meanwhile back in the bunker. It is actually quite depressing, and as for the weather, Brown out and a new man in, or could it just be young Harriet?
All the cabinet have to do is to look up that story which young Bill put together. If you are going to stab somebody in the back then do it as one, they surely all can't be totally gutless in the cabinet! Or can they?
Complain about this comment
216. At 11:45pm on 20 Jul 2009, T A Griffin (TAG)
_________________________________________________________________________
No they just can not get anyone who is credible to stand up as there are too many who owe Gordon and Lord Mandelson
Complain about this comment
Meninwhitecoats
Thanks for your kind thoughts which are much appreciated.
We are off today with a 22bn fall in tax take which is not at all surprising. I wonder if even Gordon is now going to own up to the fact that reductions in Public Expenditure are inevitable? From my own previous incarnation as a Senior Civil Servant I am quite sure that the first 10% of cuts would be relatively easy to achieve - not painless in terms of jobs, but fair to the rest of the country who dont work in the Public Sector.
In my view the Government should trawl the Public Services looking for ideas from the inside about how and where to start. This is not about turkeys volunteering for Christmas but about facing up to one of the biggest crises in any of our lifetimes. If GB has ten months left in his Premiership he could at least try to make an impact in the short time available. As I have said before, the low fruit is there and could and should be picked now.
Complain about this comment
#218
the trouble is that all those well paid bankers used to spend hugely in the economy, but most importantly they also did pay massive amounts of tax and national insuramce. So, it was actually a way to tax the banks. Yes they made massive profits, but by paying the staff, who actually paid at a higher rate of tax than the corporation tax on the banks. So, Brown allowed pay and bonuses to rise because that gave him his tax take, needed to fund the expensive wars his former leader had got the government in to.
It is no wonder that the Head of NATO, who is now in London, says we must not walk away from Afghanistan, that we must see this through to the end. Consider this, if it wasn't for the terror threat, and the war on terror, the occupation of foreign countries, then maybe, just maybe, the people at home may well question the reason as to why we have actually got the armed forces, other than to give employment to young men and women and to keep them off the streets. After all, there are no jobs, so they might as well go off. However, it is not like the adverts, there are fewer and fewer nice trips to Norway to get trained in fighting in the Arctic, not unless they want to go on an expedition to measue global warming, or raise mney for a military charity.
The trouble is the senior officers who only come out after they leave, or are soon to leave, the army. The same with many of the families of the dead, they have to sign confidentiality clauses in respect of any compensation. As for the girlfriends they have to show that the child they have is fathered by the newly deceased soldier, or prove that they were properly engaged so that they can get the compensation. As for the soldiers, scared maybe both physically and mentally, they have to show that they are entitled to compensation, but they must show that they have made every effort to recover, they must be put through all forms to ensure that they are not sponging.
In the meantime consider that investigations are now going on in both Britain and America to find out what has happened to millions of dollars which were meant to buy off the locals but which are not accounted for. That is, I think you will find that whole teams of soldiers went out with loads of cash, and that the money was distributed to the locals on the basis that one for you, three for us, one for you, three for us. As soon as the money dried up then the locals started their insurgency, we want more money.
Complain about this comment
TAG
You prompted me to think about spelling out some of the low fruit (my 218 post) that I think could be available by raising the issue of the army. As I would say we need to maintain an army but there are some questions that could be asked as to how it is deployed. Take Germany. I know it provides excellent training facilities, but could those same facilities be made available here?
We have between 20,000 and 23,000 (depending on what you read) service men and women in Germany. The end of the cold war the Thatcher/Major governments, and the last twelve years of Labour, has produced reductions of 30,000 with the end of BAOR (British Army on The Rhine). On the Army's site the reason for them being there is given as:
"British forces are stationed in Germany for reasons of national and NATO security". It goes on to say that they provide "a visible display of the UKs support for its NATO allies".
For each troop number you can double it when you are talking about support, which is where the real savings could be made, assuming you dont simply increase the support in the UK by the same percentage as currently spent in Germany. Even if you didnt save any money (the troops still need to be supported in the UK) you would at least give 25,000 extra jobs to our country rather than to Germany. I havent thought this through in detail, but it does suggest to me that our continued presence in Germany might be a subject for consideration.
Incidentally, in my 8 years in Germany we had good relations with the local population, but it did depend where you were serving. I wonder if there has been any backlash with the increasing criticism that we have about the German soldiers in Afghanistan not being allowed out at night, and not doing their turn in Helmond?
Complain about this comment
Headline in the Guardian for this article about casualties in Afghanistan:
MORE THAN 150 UK CASUALTIES IN A WEEK IN HELMAND
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/jul/21/record-uk-casualties-helmand-taliban
Coupled with the fatalities, you really have to question the numbers of troops actually available to fight that Brown spouts at PMQs. Unless an equivalent number of replacements are being sent out, the troop numbers must be declining. As far as I am aware replacements are at Battallion level, not individual soldiers.
We cannot be far off from a recall of Parliament, if this attrition rate is maintained.
Complain about this comment
190. Sorry Saga if I offended you, I didn't know you were of mixed race. However, the situation is as it is and if people think it's ok to live in the slums Labour have made then why is it that most of us have actually moved OUT of the areas to other more English areas?
Eh?
Tell me that. Explain to me the white flight. Although I accept that being of mixed race you WILL have a different slant on it.
Complain about this comment
Good morning each & Andrew.
I trust we are all listening to Radio4...those poor MPs.
Complain about this comment
220. majorroadaheadagain
You raise an interesting point. I can see the thinking behind having troops based in NATO countries. The focus should be on continuous joint-training which then begs the question why bases in Germany alone? However, looking at the current and potential areas for conflict, i.e. the Middle-East and Eurasia, it makes sense for our armed forces to have non-operational or training bases in countries which have those climates and conditions. Apart from Germany and N.I. the only other significant base is Cyprus. Which is hardly a replica for Iraq, Iran (God-forbid) or Pakistan (ditto). TAG mentions fewer training trips to Norway. The Armed Forces should be primed to fight in any climate, however the reality of today's prohibitive costs and financial restraints make that very difficult. But current international politics suggests future conflicts will remain in the areas in which we are currently engaged. The problem of finding suitable 'hosts' is religious as well as political. Is there anyone left? Ideally the military need to be in a situation where they do not have to wait an eternity for airborne or ground transport to be adapted to new conditions. Getting back to the helicopter debacle you would think that there is a perfect example where proper NATO co-operation could alleviate those technical and logistical problems.
Ultimately, as many on this site have said, you can't fight a war unless you are willing and able to properly fund it.
Complain about this comment
222. flamepatricia wrote:
'190. Sorry Saga if I offended you, I didn't know you were of mixed race. However, the situation is as it is and if people think it's ok to live in the slums Labour have made then why is it that most of us have actually moved OUT of the areas to other more English areas?'
=
I don't normally get wound up at comments here but you are starting to scrape the barrel, flame. I could have your post removed but I don't believe in that process. If you've got it in for Asians, that's your problem and not something most of us on this blog are interested in. Labour screwed up on immigration, not the people living in your neighbourhood.
Complain about this comment
WAR! Good god y'all, what is it comming to...
The present 'war' is, we are led to believe, being fought on all fronts. We (who stand and wait) also are fighting this war. We each bear some responsibility to keep our streets trouble-free.
Such a war is never ending.
Wars are not fought only where success is guaranteed or at a time of our choosing. The cost of wars are the same each time...lives. And life is cheap.
What is missing here is 'Profit'.
Just what are we fighting for?
Complain about this comment
226. Oudeis
"Just what are we fighting for?"
=
There's a song in there!
Not what we are led to believe, I suspect. Most foreign 'interventions' outside of UN auspices are undertaken for reasons other than 'liberation' or self-defence.
My post @224 sounds a bit 'hawkish' but I do believe we need a properly trained and staffed defence force. The emphasis being on the word 'defence'.
Complain about this comment
Profit(s).
Reflective glory; Doing the right thing is our thing?
Distraction; Sleight of hand?
Cohesion/patriotism; 'We' are doing the right thing?
etc.
In short...
If one wishes to convey; "It is a bad idea to change horses in mid-stream...
First find yourself a torrent!
Complain about this comment
This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
#225 blamegame
It is better to let the posts through - that way they show their true colours and we can see their agenda.
Complain about this comment
This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
Andrew,
I have no vendetta against the army, or the armed forces. My problem is that I think that there had come to pass a time when the soldiers really should have refused orders. That time was in Iraq, with extra-ordinary rendition, with enhanced interrogation techniques, Guantalamo Bay, with our soldiers working in Baghdad under the orders of the Americans, who knew that to follow orders could possibly result in charges of committing acts in cotravention of American law. So, they got our guys, and the Australians, to detain people who were then handed over to the Americans or to the Iraqi authorities, where who knows what happened to them.
It does seem that it was and is the case that the ends justify the means. I would say never, should that be the case in England, the ends do not justify the means. It is all about Nurembourg trials and I was following orders. As I have said I am not in the process of conducting a vendetta, I just want justice, not for our side, but the enemy as well. We have done terrible things, the Inquiry into Iraq must be conducted in public, and all the memorandi and agreements must be published, in full. Finally, all evidence must be under oath, and no pleading the fifth amendment, and no national security.
I feel that with the lowering of the terrorist threat in this country the government is being negligent, I thought the war in Afghanistan was all about keeping terror off the streets of Britain, have we won the war then, or is that we are killing our home grown terrorists in Afghanistan.
Complain about this comment
227 TheBlameGame
Sadly what is lacking here is that self same thing politics lacks at every turn. Honesty.
The British Armed Forces are but cheap-as-chips mercenaries, both in Afghanistan and Iraq.
[In Iraq some soldiers have siezed upon this fact and cut out the middle-man and collard some of the profits for themselves; taking themselvs off beyond the law into 'darker' waters]
Defence/self defence are concepts than can change depending on point of view: Jenkin's Ear, bayoneted babies etc.
It seems to me that in this day and age politics is all about 'means', and less about ends or right and wrong.
We are 'sold' the notion that government is acting to beter our 'lot'. As always..."What is good for me (think TB) IS good for the country.
ONE THING
I prefer that our own army does out dirty work to the notion that we employ surrogates to do this for us. Saddam could do no wrong while he kept killing Iranians and his own people. It was only when he got the idea that Iraq was a sovereign state with it's own agenda that he became surplus to requirements.
Complain about this comment
233. Oudeis
It's about playing for positions on a giant political chessboard.
I'm not sure if we've fallen to pawn status yet, but we can't be far off.
Complain about this comment
Moderators - why is Blamegame being moderated - is another blogger playing silly devils?
Post 231 was unobjectionable
Complain about this comment
It is no good various of you telling flamepatricia that she shouldnt feel the way she does.
You need to find out why and see if there is an an answer.
Walking in her shoes for a week might be a good start.
Complain about this comment
TAG There will only ever come a time when a soldier should refuse an order, and that is when it is clearly illegal and of such importance that it cannot wait a post order inquiry or complaint. Like ordering a soldier to shoot one of the enemy. If you start to put the idea in a soldier's mind that he can refuse an order then it begins to become a question of whether the recipent of the order likes it or not. That way lies the path to anarchy, which could endanger the lives of colleagues and the breakdown of military discipline and order. What would be the consequences in, say, Afghanistan, of a soldier refusing to drive a vehicle because it was unsafe, or refusing to advance because the enemy is firing live ammunition?
It is easy for us because we are not there, but our soldiers need to have proper command and control, and to trust in their superiors to do the best for them. If your theory stands up you should be shouting it to the Government who sent our soldiers to Iraq and Afghanistan, and putting forward your point that the conflict affects not just our soldiers but people in Afghanistan and Iraq, who have just as many rights as we do.
Incidentally, why do you feel the need to bring in Nuremburg? We have a system of justice that says if a British soldier commits an offence like murder they will be treated in the same way as anyone else. If you have any proof that this does not happen then put it forward. if not, dont bring in Nuremburg, and the trials of people like Goering and all the other jackbooted fascists who murdered millions, when you are talking about the conduct of British soldiers.
Complain about this comment
The ongoing debate on population and immigration has obviously touched a few raw spots and raised a few temperatures. The dangers arise from getting bogged down in details and not stripping out the major factors. As I see it,there are four principal points to consider, namely:
Growth of world population.
Growth of UK population.
Magnitude of UK immigration.
Nature and consequences of UK immigration.
It's tempting to dwell on these at length, but in the interests of brevity reasonably short comments are probably more appropriate.
Growth of the world population, probably attributable mainly to rapid advances in medicine, science and technology, becomes a problem only in terms of food, housing and pollution. If these require growth control, the only humane solution is via birth control and associated education. The questions are: How will the difficulties be assessed and how can the solutions be accomplished?
Growth of the UK population might mirror the world population problems, to some extent, but contains additional factors, such as the relative contributions of EU and non-EU immigrants, and growth of the indigenous population. It would be useful to know accurately how the overall growth was constituted before attempting to discuss it further. In terms of judging the effects of population size, a starting point might be a comparison of population density with other similar countries.
A more balanced view on the magnitude of UK immigration might follow from the information mentioned in the preceding point. But its distribution, referred to below, is of greater importance.
Britain's history over the last 2000 years is a history of immigrants, from the Romans, Vikings (Norwegian and Danish), Jutes, Angles, Saxons and Normans through succeeding waves from almost every European nation plus a few others. Until comaratively recently, the vast majority of immigrants were of Judao-Christian persuasion, and gradually integrated well. More recent waves of immigrants have been of different religions, with distinctly different cultures - and this has been one of the real sources of difficulty. For whatever reason, separate communities grew up within the host community (multiculturalism), and resisted true integration. To all intents and purposes they brought new mini-countries to Britain, keeping their own religions, culture, dress, language, and even seeking, in some cases, to introduce their own law system.
Without benevolent integration and tolerance, friction and resentment are inevitable, and this is more likely in areas of dense population, as we have seen. It is wrong to place all of the blame on the 'bigoted British citizens' or on the 'foreigners'. Without greater dispersion the troubles will not diminish. Our history has shown the way; we would be foolish to ignore the message.
Complain about this comment
235. meninwhitecoats
Presume it's retaliation for suspected referring on 229.
The Mods don't appear to refer to the history of a thread.
I'm not really bothered, give them enough rope and all that, but it is somewhat erratic, and puerile.
Complain about this comment
238 mikejay
Good post Sir.
May I suggest that there is a sub section within the fourth of your headings, ie Nature and consequences of UK immigration.That would be-
The growth/birthrate of the "recent" UK immigrant population relative to the rest of the population.
This is especially relevant in the "mini countries" which you term the areas popular with immigrants from the mainly Asian Commonwealth.
Complain about this comment
@ 236
It is no good various of you telling flamepatricia that she shouldnt feel the way she does. You need to find out why and see if there is an an answer.
there is a (quick and easy) answer ... what's that thing now? ... Lobotomy? ... yeah, that's the one
Complain about this comment
#237
May I suggest that you look seriously at the case of Mr Mousa in Iraq, who was so maltreated by British soldiers to the extent that he actually died. I think that you will find that the judge actually refers to the total lack of co-operation from the army in bringing evidence to the court. The judge also refrrred to colonel Mendonca and one of the reasons why he was found not guilty after the case was that he thought that Mendonca was in fact following orders.
The army also manifestly failed to protect the local population from insurgent attacks, and also who failed to stop the looting, but were seen and filmed by one of their own laughing as youths were beaten after being detained. It strikes me that many people have very selective memories, clouded by events in Afghanistan, in respect of our total failure in Iraq. I look forward with interest to the inquiry into the Iraq war, the events leading up to the war, the conduct of the war, and our involvement in the subsequent occupation, with our allies.
We must look at the instructions which are now under investigation in America with regard to Mr Cheyney, and also the evidence given by John Hutton to parliament in February to the effect that parliament had not been given the whole truth by previous holders of his post in respect of the number of individuals detained by soldiers and either handed over to the Americans or Iraqi authorities.
As for soldiers refusing orders then I agree with you that whilst in the field then it is incumbent for soldiers to follow lawfully given orders. But consider this. If a British soldier is serving with senior officers of another nation then must that soldier follow the orders of that senior officer of the other nation, where the orders are illegal in respect of the treatment of prisoners in respect of that other nation.
I fully understand the problem with respect to refusing orders. However, I would say that if a soldier served in a country where an illegal war was fought, a war of aggression, based on a lie, then that soldier has a moral authority to refuse to return to that country to continue with the illegal actions. I know of at least one case where a soldier has refused orders to return to the occupation, and that he was given an honourable discharge, rather than face courts martial and dishonourable discharge after a prison sentence. There must be an investigation into how many soldiers actually went AWOL during the Iraq conflict, or who refused to serve and were subsequently given medical exemptions
May I remind you of a former Fl Lt in the air force, Kendall-Smith who served a prison term and was dishonourably discharged for refusing orders. I am of the firm belief that our soldiers signed up to serve their Queen and country, and to defend it, not to commit illegal acts in a war which really was none of our business, if the war was illegal then all the activities in that war are illegal, therefore, the problems go right to the top. Soldiers follow orders, but who gives those orders, it was not the ordinary foot soldier who was on trial at Nurembourg, it was the leaders, the givers of orders, who were tried at Nurembourg. The foot soldiers suffered summary justice being either shot or hung without any formal trial.
Complain about this comment
241 Saga
You missed the walking in her shoes bit.
You suggestion is a bit too 3rd Reich for me.
Complain about this comment
236. xTunbridge wrote:
It is no good various of you telling flamepatricia that she shouldnt feel the way she does.
You need to find out why and see if there is an an answer.
Walking in her shoes for a week might be a good start.
=
I fully understand where resentment, grudges, feelings of injustice come from. My own 'shoes' have brought me face to face with cultural and racial conflict.
Immigration is an emotive issue but sarcastic remarks about "mixed race" and racial stereotyping have no place in any debate.
Complain about this comment
#242 TAG
Short memories all around.
I recall the rhetoric belched out to those soldiers that manned the Berlin Wall, that the "just following orders" was not good enough.
Sauce for the goose and all that?
Complain about this comment
Come on everyone, on here we always discuss things in a very moderate and intelligent way. That is what makes this blog one step up from the others, lets not drop our standards now. Please.
Population and what we do about it is not just confined to a conversation about immigrants. Immigration must stop because there are just too many of all of us in Britain. Mike is quite right to point out that it is no good pointing to one section of society or the other in an effort to blame someone, it is proper solutions we need. If we need someone to blame it is the Government with its open door policy on immigration.
I shall do my bit because any children I have will be adopted.
Complain about this comment
246 susan-croft
Put your last paragraph by me again please Croftie.
How does who brings them up affect the population addition of the children?
Complain about this comment
TAG
In your final para you get to the point of what we hope the Inquiry into the Iraq War will reveal. I have no difficulty with that. There is a system for dealing with soldiers, and by and large it works but I take your point where you are talking about actual events. If we expect that an army, taken from a cross-section of our society, would not have one or two bad apples within its ranks then we are dreaming.
What we need is the ability to call to account those who at times seek to hide behind parliamentary privilege where their actions might be called into dispute. Like ignoring calls for full disclosure of what advice the Attorney General gave in the run-up to the War. It makes you suspect that they have something to hide but I hope not.
At least we have an Inquiry, and everyone is on full alert to make sure that it is not another whitewash of the kind Iraq has spawned to date. Whatever its terms of reference the conduct of everyone from President Bush and Prime Minister Blair (and incidentally Mr Brown, who funded the British contribution to the War and was powerful enough to have spiked it) will be under scrutiny, and it is to be hoped for all our sakes that they acted in good faith. I shudder to think what would come out of a revelation that is popularly put forward that it was an illegal war, based on a lie. What action would you take against the perpetrators of such an occurrence?
Complain about this comment
xt @ 243
mmm, guess so - but my comment refers not to FP herself, but to the "Flame Patricia" blogging construct - very different things
Complain about this comment
#248
On your last point...
There are laws governing such actions & omissions.
There were whole families wiped out in Iraq.
Is it, can it be, right that such matters be only the concern of the puppet regime installed?
Is it right for Ronnie Biggs to continue to be in prison for not seeing the error of his ways? Yet the person keeping him there is able to shun and poo-poo any idea of wrongdoing on his part in this war?
It is one thing for our head of state to be above the law but this exemption must not extend further.
C Blair has written recently of her 'joy' that Afican states are now taking International Law seriously.
"Charity begins at home."
Complain about this comment
#238 Mike Jay
"benevolent integration and tolerance" - good phrase that.
However it was necessary to counter some of the points being raised here which were neither benevolent nor tolerant.
Complain about this comment
249. sagamix wrote:
xt @ 243
mmm, guess so - but my comment refers not to FP herself, but to the "Flame Patricia" blogging construct - very different things
=
Can you elaborate without being moderated, please, Saga?
I have my own thoughts, as I do on the "Saga Mix" construct ;-)
Complain about this comment
222 flamepatricia
Well fp at 9,14am you lit the blue touch paper and retired.
Want to come back and explain any more ?
Complain about this comment
#240
xT
That's the sort of information I was getting at in the second point, mentioning 'how the overall growth was constituted' - i.e. how various sections of the total community contributed to it.
Complain about this comment
xTunbridge 247
Because I will not have any children of my own, a child would already exist for me to adopt, I will not therefore be adding to the overall population. I am not the sort of person who has a deep need to create a child in my own image. A child is a child to me and there are many already who need a good home.
Complain about this comment
255 Susan-Croft
Sorry Croftie. Talk obout getting the wrong end of the stick.
You meant you would adopt. I stupidly read it as your issue would go for adoption.
I mean why go for the obvious when.......
Complain about this comment
I am here Tunbridge. What do you mean?
Is Tunbridge near Tunbridge Wells? Nice place.
Complain about this comment
xTunbridge 256
Your right of course, I had not realised it was such bad wording that another interpretation could be put on it, I will have to watch that.
I am a little hurt though that you perceive me as such a hard person that I would foster out any little ones I had.
Complain about this comment
I have read a bit now up the line here. I am no blogging machine. I am one person and I just write what is true in my neck of the woods.
Labour is at fault here, not me. They have caused complications and havoc. They messed up a brilliant opportunity but have done so many disastrous things they are now coming into retirement phase.
I am just trying, with my husband, to look after our disabled son (He had a craniotomy, six months coma, Saga, dreadful business so I really do know).
Complain about this comment
258 Susan-Croft
I was pzzled as you seem a caring person.
I did a double meaning the other day, its easily done.
Complain about this comment
257 flamepatricia
What do I mean? I think I need to see your expression and hear the inlflection to know what you mean when you ask that.
Just read the posts about your 222. I dint read it and got into trouble from others for defending you against their reactions to a post I hadnt read. That'l teach me.
Complain about this comment
Susan-croft
Whilst I had some difficulty with your earlier post on methods of controlling our numbers, as I have posted often on here I have no difficulty with the fact that you and others highlight frequently that we have to do something fast if this Island is not to sink under the sheer weight of people.
There was a time when a schoolboy like I was once answered the question of the size of the population as 50m. Put the clock on a few years (a good few years)and it has reached 60m plus, and rising, It is projected to reach 70m within the next ten years. Actually, for the first thirty or so years from when I was a schoolboy the numbers didnt seem to increase too dramatically. However, now we are in charge of a runaway, and no-one has the wherewithall or gumption to apply the brake. It is quite feasible that my nine grandchildren will be talking about 100m during their lifetime if nothing is done to address the problem.
Once a person comes into this country and gets a passport they will want to stay for life, as will their progeny. We need to address the problem of controls first and foremost, because there arent any at present. You can hide away in a pantechnicon bringing food in, and there's another 50, all candidates for Mayor Boris's amnesty.
Step one is to stop the illegals, including those going to phony universities (what is that all about?).
Step two is to renegotiate our membership of the EU so that we can apply quotas, control how long temporary workers stay, and make sure they leave when they should.
Step three is to review our benefits, health and pensions system so that it is fit for purpose (you build up eligibility on the latter two).
Step four is to bring in proper controls that work at entry points like airports and docks.
Others may have other issues that need to be addressed. What is important is that we stick to the numbers on this issue, which speak for themselves.
Complain about this comment
Thank you for defending me (blindly as you seem to infer) against others feeling uncomfortable about what I may have said.
I accept that others are not affected. But I am.
I have a feeling others can criticise me but would not like it in their back yard.
Complain about this comment
blame @ 252
Can you elaborate without being moderated, please, Saga?
I can certainly try ...
FP the Blogger Entity is the "Bruno" and the person behind it is the Sacha Baron Cohen - the idea is to satirise ignorant/racist attitudes but (unlike SBC) the spoof is so subtle and well done ... verging on the brilliant, actually ... that it fools most of the people most of the time - including even me if I don't really concentrate - or maybe a better way to express it is I'm 90 pc sure it's a spoof, but that leaves a 10 pc doubt (a one in ten chance it's horribly real) and it's that 10 pc which makes me argue with it - course, if my 90 pc probability is on the mark, then I'm being made a fool of - just like the people in those Baron Cohen films ... there's also Borat and Ali G, isn't there? ... talk about a one trick pony!
anyway, there are worse things in life than being made a fool of by someone much cleverer than you (right?) so I'll probably carry on rowing with it from time to time - possibly tonight, even, since I'm quite In The Mood if you know what I mean
Complain about this comment
263
I wasnt defending whatever you said, I couldnt hadnt read it, but the right of anyone to express an opinion, especially one based on experience.
And for them to walk a week in your shoes first.
Having belatedly read 222, I dont know where you are coming from on that one.
Complain about this comment
mike jay @ various re sustainability of population growth
that's a nice, reasoned analysis, Mike, but you've missed the crux of the matter - being equality of wealth distribution
say a place ... a town, the country, the world whatever ... has total material wealth/resources of 100 and a person needs 2 to have quality of life - okay, so now two scenarios:
scenario A
it's shared equally - therefore the place can sustain 50 people, right?
scenario B
one guy has snaffled up 80 for himself - meaning the (very same) place can only sustain 11 people
we are firmly in scenario B, aren't we? - yes, and so what I conclude is that the main solution to this "problem" is none of the things that you (or any of you guys on here) are saying ... the solution is to shift (as far as possible, I mean, since we all know perfect equality is not feasible) from B to A
don't you think?
Complain about this comment
So we have a conundrum do we believe Saga's interpretation of FP or take FP's post 259 at face value?
It would seem uncharitable to doubt FP's last post, which could explain a degree of bitterness.
But then we offset that against FP's uncharitable view of others and are left feeling distinctly uncomfortable.
Complain about this comment
#248
the same action that takes place against all those who commit crimes against humanity. They should be tried in the Hague and if found guilty then a spell in prison. Why do you think that George Bush does not seem to travel outside his America, they are terrified that somebody may well arrest him. I think that Blair ought to have done more to rpevent the executions in Iraq, they breach international law, and any government which supports capital punishment should be a member of the United Nations, nor the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO). What on earth by the way have so many countries got to do with NATO, I mean seriously!
As for Blair, well as we know he converted to catholicism more or less as soon as he left parliament, so I think he will find that his punishment will last longer and be more terrible than even he can contemplate. If anybody believes in God and heaven then surely they must also believe in the Devil and hell. Is that not one of the strange aspects of society today, we hear so much about God but not quite so much about the other side of the coin.
Complain about this comment
#266
saga
Nice attempt at obfuscation, but we are where we are re wealth distribution and the analysis is based on that realism.
Total equality is a myth - it presupposes no individual freedom of action to waste or to improve one's standard/quality of life.
Would you have regular redistribution of wealth every few years to avoid the growth of inequality? How demoralising!
By all means help where help is necessary, but be realistic.
Complain about this comment
#268
Ah yes.
The Pi verses the Quiche.
The latter being the 'anti-crust'. :)
Complain about this comment
267. meninwhitecoats
If it's Saga's take, it's in bad taste, but fair enough, certainly gets us going.
If it's taken at face value, still no excuse for the "mixed race" sarcasm and some of the other previous comments, all things taken into account.
Third option, Nick Griffin, or his mum.
Complain about this comment
fp @257 backs up your theory, saga.
Are you sure it's not you taking the p*ss, saga?
Damn, this is getting complicated.
Complain about this comment
perhaps I am Flame Patricia - maybe it's all ME - like a circle ever spinning, like a wheel within a wheel ... like the circles that you find in the WOYM ...
Complain about this comment
273 saga
Bloomin eck Saga, you got us back to where we started;windmills!!!!!!!!!!
Complain about this comment
... yes, on topic as always!
Complain about this comment
#273
If you have an alter ego - please, please, please not FP!
Don't reduce me to complete cynicism - I prefer FP's charge of naivety.
.... that really would be the cruellest twist - unlass of course you are aka Susan Croft [sorry Susan] as well and leading us all a merry dance.
But seriously mate - you need to get help!
Complain about this comment
coats @ 276 ... that would be a bit like Norman Bates and Mother, wouldn't it? - very very creepy and (if true) cue one crazy, mixed up blogger being led gently away by your namesake
Complain about this comment
#277
That's what I'm here for.
Complain about this comment
278 meninwhitecoats
Yes but are you coming to take him away ?
Complain about this comment
Good Morning Andrew,
I'm sorry but I think that your blog has come to the end of the season. I feel an insurgency what with the effective closure of the Nick Robinson Blog. I notice a distinct change of style and accordingly as your various programmes are off the air for the summer recession, sorry recess, a recess which is definitely not a holiday by the way, then I think that I too will take a break.
Brown has not found a way of communicating the deaths of the soldiers in Afghanistan, which is just as I thought, the man actually seems to have disapperared to be replaced by a First Secretary, who now seems to be running the country. What I want to know for example, is the MG Rover inquiry. Decisions are about to be made over the rump of GM, or Government Motors, sorry General Motors, so we should know about the results of that inquiry. Unfortunately there is some other investigation now taking place about criminal charges etc... so the report is now in the long grass!
As for helicopters in Afghanistan well I'm sorry but that is not the point. It is about who invited us in, how do we get out. I would love to be a fly on the wall when Malaki of Iraq meets Obama, they will talk about the retreat of American and British forces, and Obama will see if the lessons can be applied to Afghanistan. America has lost in Iraq, they will lose in Afghanistan, and Obama must start preparing the American people for their retreat, which must happen before the next Presidential election.
So, I am afraid Andrew I am leaving for a while. You might as well close for holiday yourself because you will have to deal with your own insurgency, have a good summer and I look forward to your return when the party political season gets under way. No point in flogging a dead horse, no Prime Minister, no agenda. Enjoy the game whilst I'm away.
Complain about this comment
So out going Lord Malach Brown says we don't have enough helicopters
Could PM Brown come under pressure again for playing fast and loose with the military covenant?
Complain about this comment
280. TAG
Enjoy your holiday, sounds like you need one. And do not take a laptop with you and stay away from internet cafes!
Complain about this comment
majorroadaheadagain 262
I had actually taken those measures you mention into account already.
If I say to you that population particularly in Britain is the biggest challenge we have you may see how important this issue has become. Put aside the economy, the welfare state, any of these problems will not matter a bean, if we do not get to grips with our population, because they will simply not be able to function. That will leave people in poverty for the future.
We have 61 million people approximately that will reach by 2081 on know figures 108 million. This population surge has been driven by high levels of immigration, a sharpe rise in the birth rate particularly amongst the less well educated and immigrants, and a decline in the annual number of deaths. The annual rate of of 0.5% in the population in six years from 2000-2006 means there will be 12.7 more living in England alone by 2050 requiring another 8.25 million houses to be needed.
Labours pro-natal policies have been designed to raise the birth rate which has in turn increased the problem. Add to this longevity for the future of men living to 81 and women to 84 on average you can see the problem.
The birth rate among non British mothers is extremely high (this is not an anti anything by the way just figures). This will in turn increase further when their children have the same amount of children.
Unless we cut our population by half in the next 80 years the enviromental impact will be frightening. Along with this our welfare state will not be able to cope as we will never see full employment or anywhere near that again. Our economy now will be a challenge anyway because we no longer have anything to offer the World. There will be very little work for the young because only the very best will get jobs. The state of education is so appalling that many leave school and further education still unable to read, write and do numbers properly. The best may very well decide not to keep their skills in this Country anyway. This will mean we have a massive unskilled underclass living on benefits or when this system breaks down because it is unaffordable living in abject poverty.
This is labours legacy to Britain.
We must immediately move to a system of insurance base model for the NHS, this is unready a service that is unsustainable. We must despite the crisis in the economy start moving towards cutting tax particularly for business before any more companies disappear to low taxation Countries like Switzerland. If we do not we will go totally bankrupt as a Country. We must consider lower taxation as soon as possible for the individual to give them more of their own money to spend and save for old age instead of being reliant on the state. The public finances must be overalled from top to bottom to make a much smaller state. Most of all we must institute hard measures on underaged pregnancies and move to first a voluntary policy for smaller families and then to enforcement if this does not work. A voluntary two child population policy in Iran succeeded in halving fertility in just eight years this was as fast a rate of decrease as that of China which began in 1980.
This is without taking into account where all these people will live, how the energy will be produced for them all and the impact on wildlife. The pressures that will build up in communities because of over population between the already tense areas.
One good point is that Cameron is already deeply concerned about our population and has said as much. He has talked about hard policies to deal with it. Whether any poltitican is brave enough to take the necessary steps I doubt very much.
Complain about this comment
meninwhitecoats 276
There I was under the illusion that I looked more like Marilyn Monroe and you had me down as either Saga or Bates mother. Sad times indeed if thats the impression you got. Just the thought gives me nightmares.
Complain about this comment
If anybody doubts my sincerity I can give a link to my son's website but I would lose my anonymity.....
Complain about this comment
#284
I had you down more as a Janet Leigh type, to Saga's Norman.
but if you prefer Marilyn there will be no objections here!
Complain about this comment
Good morning each & Andrew.
The other side of the immigration equation could stand some improvement also.
Those who come here represent a real loss to their home countries. If only we could use and improve the skills of those who come here and improve the quality of life in those home countries the immigrants, and who knows some Britons too, could return/migrate.
Complain about this comment
Ho ho ho...a clarification of the helicopters statement
NuLiebour obfuscation in action?
Complain about this comment
Andrew, as you point out, with the closure of Vestas wind turbine factory it's hard to see how Labour's so-called green agenda will create jobs.
Turbines can never meet all our needs as wind is neither predictable nor constant and electricity generated cannot be easily stored.
Perhaps ministers should instead turn to the similarly named but unrelated Vesta, purveyors of fine curry. This may help generate the additional wind needed.
Complain about this comment
@ 283
hi Susan,
no big deal but it's interesting ... well, to me it is ... that you are in favour of BOTH of the following:
1. the State to have the power not just to set (and spend) our taxes, run the police, military etc ... usual stuff like that ... but also to Regulate! the size of families, via how many children a free born woman can have
and ...
2. a "Small State"
... I don't just like it, babe, I love it!
Complain about this comment
Susan,
We have two views on the same problem, and in the end the numbers dont lie. I have 100m in my previous post and you have 108m. That is a doomsday scenario and as you say we need an honest leader to actually articulate it rather than leaving it for another generation to try to solve.
I have nothing against controlled immigration, where it is to fill a very specific gap and controlled as to time spent here. If you look at the example of Australia up to the 80s they plundered a lot of good people from the UK who helped to build Australia to what it is today. Even there, immigration is now raising the uglier side of its head. True, the ex pats from England still support our cricket team during the Ashes, but they would call themselves Aussies in every other respect. Some feel that some of the immigrants coming here in recent years have not followed the example of our ex pats (although I am not sure our old geezers living in Torremelinos would call themselves Spanish....
The first step is to cut out illegals. They dont belong here, and only the most liberal person would argue for anything other than putting them straight back on a plane. On legeal immigration I would insist on a person being allowed in being linked to a sort of contract of what that person can do to improve our country, and be committed to seeing it through. I have nothing against a person from Afica keeping their sense of identity with their roots, but not to the exclusion of having a British passport and yet not owning up to being British. That is not just about paying taxes, but about not biting the hand that feeds you.
We should have the dialogue now, and the posts here suggest that a lot of people would welcome such a proposal, without conducting it as some would in terms of BNP type solutions. Control is all.
PS Before you make a play for Marilyn you should remember what happened to her. You sound as if peaches and cream would be much more appropriate - say Sandra Dee? Or Mrs Thatcher?
Complain about this comment
Sagamix "I love it"
I have this vision of detector vans going around to check what is going on. "They dont have a TV licence in No 24 and they are at it again". Sounds like a Quango in the offing - what would you call it?
Complain about this comment
#283
Susan
You paint a black picture - enough to give everyone nightmares. There is no doubt that the problem needs debate and, hopefully, some plan of action. Out of interest, and to get a sense of proportion, below is a small selection of population densities, in number per square km (population/area of country) for 2005. Obviously these are overall averages.
UK 246 Belgium 341 Netherlands 395 Malta 1309
Japan 337 Israel 302 India 344 Germany 232
Lower down: France 110 Italy 193 Denmark 126
China 138 USA 31 Sweden 20 Australia 3
So we're fairly well up the list (52nd in the ones listed in the source document), but some countries - even in the EU - are more highly populated. The overall world average was 45 per squ km (based on land area only).
I don't know where this gets us, except to confirm that the UK is one of the most problematic in the EU, and countries such as France, Denmark, and Sweden could probably tolerate greater populations.
Charts like this also suggest that there is plenty of slack in places such as the USA, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand.
Do we need a world plan to solve the first stage of the problem by population redistribution? Could we get Gordon onto it as he claims to be the global expert?
Complain about this comment
majorroadaheadagain 291
Total ceasation of immigration would not be enough, that has already been taken into account. We must have a smaller family approach as well if we are to avoid being a Country of great poverty.
By the way I only meant in looks that I am like Monroe, I am nothing like her in personality, I hope.
Complain about this comment
mike-jay 293
This actually has already been looked at as to how we can redistribute population. However, when it was done the population of the World was still found to be too high to be sustained. With the coming years it is predicted that population will increase well beyond any possible ability for the earth to cope. It was concluded that only by seriously curtailing the population growth do we stand any chance at all.
I believe that if people do not cut population by their own decisions, in future years Governments will find more sinister ways to do it.
Complain about this comment
#295
Susan
Curtailing population growth is obviously desirable for the future, but I question the doomsday scenario of the earth being unable to cope in the short/medium term.
As far as food is concerned, there is plenty of scope for increased production in undeveloped areas, and more efficient techniques (possibly with more GM crops) are very likely to emerge. It should also be remembered that there is a vast wastage of food in the western industrialised countries and obesity is a problem that could be solved for the world's benefit. Additionally, look at countries like Zimbabwe, which used to be 'the breadbasket of Africa', but has gone to waste, and countries like Australia and NZ that had to search for markets for their produce when the UK joined the EU.
Similarly, much development will take place on clean and renewable energy production, in conjunction with less waste. This is an area where scientists, engineers, and technologists will eventually make tremendous progress.
Probably the most severe difficulties for countries like the UK will be in housing, healthcare, and social services. These need immediate consideration, and this is where immigration policies play a major part. Encouraging population curtailment could play a useful role, and 'carrot and stick' policies might be devised to aid this. For example, tapering of child benefits with numbers of children, or a complete cut-off beyond a certain number might be part of the 'stick' portion. And I'm sure there must be plenty of scope for other ideas.
If you want to look on the really black side, the earth would eventually find its own drastic way of dealing with gross over-population.
Complain about this comment
mike-jay 296
Shortages are already a problem in our ability to feed the World. Yes there are things that can be done to stave it off, if there is a will to do so. However I do not see any progress in that particular area. This also is not a solution. We must begin the process now to look after the future. For Britain this is a much more urgent problem.
I do not see this as a doomsday scenario, I see this as practical measures to ensure a better future. There are Countries already thinking of taking these steps why is it so difficult for Britain to do the same. It seems in this Country, all we want to do is pander to everyones needs, whether it is good for society or not. I want, so I shall have, I think the state should look after me no matter how irresponsible I have been, I seem to remember it is this attitude that got us into this mess in the first place. Who in the end is paying for this crisis, it is not the ones who caused it, it is those who have saved hard and worked hard who will end up paying. So will it be with population, the innocent in the future will pay.
There are quite is lot of us now kicking out at this selfish system that rewards the uncaring. It is time to take stock and say in a world where we believe the human is king and only our needs for today matter, there are far more important things than shopping, houses, celebrities and greed. Producing children in your own image, for your own needs, is not that important, there are plenty of children who need love and care without having to do that.
Stopping immigration now will not be enough unless we are prepared to boot people out of the Country, because we already have far too many people, who will in turn reproduce. Our economy and services will not take the strain.
Complain about this comment
mike-jay
I dont think it is a problem of shortage of resources. For us it boils down to simple of question of affordability. We are already in the cart, and trying to support upwards of 100m, a great deal of whom by then would be children and old people, with something like thirty per cent of the population supporting the other seventy percent on its back through taxes would be totally unworkable - the thirty percent would get so browned off that a lot of them would leave, especially those who can make things happen and are attractive elsewhere. It would also herald a return of a breakdown in law and order which would make previous riots in Bristol, Liverpool etc small beer.
We have something in our psyche which makes us a soft touch - something the rest of the world laugh at as they take the necessary steps to ensure events go the way they want them to. We play the game, like in Afghanistan, and although people like Brown pay lip service to trying to get our "allies" to share the burden, as he said again today, the Germans and the French sit in their bunkers laughing at us. They wont come out at night - in the case of the Germans because they have hidden behind the idea that we should discourage them to ever put on the slightest show of militarism. The French even set up camps so that people who want to emigrate from Afica etc can get to Britain rather than stay in France.
I do not endorse some of the things said on here about immigration or immigrants per se, as you will see from my previous posts. I just wish that people in power would elevate this to the status it deserves - we are not a world power any more and we should stop trying to act like one. If it is going to go to 70m then it should do under our terms - not driven by some unstoppable train that says everyone who has a hard luck story can get relief by coming to Britain.
Complain about this comment
Susan
I was with a lot of what you said at 297, but I could not live with your solution. There must a way to achieve control without talking about booting out and bringing in reproduction to the equation. But that is why we all have the right to put forward our opinions on here, and to question or disagree with what some say.
Complain about this comment
majorroadaheadagain 299
Sorry yes that does read wrong, I did not mean it like that. What I was trying to say is unless we do reduce the size of families in the coming years and we continue as we are, other than boot people out of the Country our population is unsustainable. Of course I would never advocate that as a solution.
Complain about this comment
susan @ 300
you're not wrong to worry about population growth, but I think you're being too pessimistic about the future - also you seem disturbingly illiberal in your attitudes, as indicated by some of your proposed "solutions"
but on to more interesting matters ... Monroe eh? ... spooky because that's exactly how I've always pictured you! - Marilyn Monroe, except with a fixation not on the Kennedy brothers but rather on rebalancing the UK economy in favour of the private sector and paying down the National Debt - should get you into less trouble, anyway
and me? ... what about me? ... what famous movie star do you conjure up in your mind's eye when you think of me? (as I know you often do!)
Complain about this comment
Sagamix 301
I am surplus to this discussion, but how about Bogie?
Complain about this comment
301 Saga
With the Monroe connection you will have to be Sinatra.
Complain about this comment
I love Bogie and dislike Sinatra. I think the invisible man is more appropriate in this instance.
Complain about this comment
The letters page in tomorrow's Times is chock full of correspondents who are speaking out against aspects of the the Milburn Report. Under the general heading of
"No, Mr Milburn. Labour destroyed aspiration"
the letters go on to summarise that
"we need equal access to excellent schooling for aspirational pupils, and a reduction in the cost of higher education".
I havent read the report yet, but have had first hand experience of how the system used to work beneficially for a boy like myself, who came from a working class home, left school at 15, joined the army, and at the age of 30 was given two years off to complete the exams of CIMA (normally they take as long as five years). I was granted an exemption from having the normal A levels as a mature student, and three years after embarking on the process was a Fellow of CIMA.
Milburn says that could no longer be achieved. He goes on to say that Accountancy is now a preserve of the middle classes - forty years ago they came from families on average incomes, but 20 years later from families on salaries 40 per cent above average. He quotes similar facts about lawyers and doctors. The simple fact is that if I were living my life again on the same terms I wouldnt have got in to CIMA at all.
The system of grants and scholarships that all the Times correspondents seem to have enjoyed can never come back. We simply cannot afford to do it, particularly if we have an aspiration of achieving 50% take up of university or similar further education (a policy I find difficult to embrace). But at least it is right to stimulate the debate so that all the old arguments about Grammar schools verses Comprehensives, privileges that only the rich can enjoy etc etc can all be aired.
One thing Milburn says with which I disagree is that "there should be more pushy parents willing to help their children with schools stepping in where necessary". Presumably by this he means the "pushy parent" telling porkies about his or her address to get a place in the best school, while the school steps in to facilitate prosecution when the deception is rumbled?
Interesting stuff as a variation to the "perils of pauline"?
Complain about this comment
sc @ 304
the Invisible Man? ... as per Ralph Ellison? ... he's Black! ... we're not starting all that FP stuff again, are we?
Complain about this comment
304
Susan Beware the invisible man. He can catch you unawares.
Complain about this comment
#304#306
Shows my age, I thought she meant Claude Rains.
But seriously Susan, I know you have a thing for Rhett Butler, so Saga must be Gable and poignantly wasn't Gable's last film the Misfits in which he co starred with Marilyn Monroe.
It has to be Susan and Saga The Misfits
Complain about this comment
major @ 305 and 307
come on let's not allow Susan to drag us into all this trivia about who looks like who, we're here to debate/discuss the issues - like EDUCATION for example, which you raise above - such an important topic, isn't it? - the frustrating thing (for me) is that IF ONLY we would bite the nettle and prevent the people who can afford it buying their way out of the state system, we would within a short space of time ... given reasonable investment, and things like upgrading the teaching profession plus the enforcement of rigorous, "old fashioned" academic standards ... develop a uniformly excellent standard of education for all - that's what I think anyway - furthermore, I'd say that this (with the possible exception of replacing men with women in top jobs) is the single most important thing we could do to transform our society for the better
Complain about this comment
#309 Saga
Not sure I would agree with all of that but what I would propose is that every MP should send their kids to state schools, so they have to live with the systems they impose on the rest of us.
Complain about this comment
major @ 292
I have this vision of detector vans going around to check what is going on! Sounds like a Quango in the offing - what would you call it?
Bureau Of No Kids ??
coats @ 310
so which bit don't you agree with? - e.g. do you think that private schools are a ...
(a) good thing, to be encouraged? ... like fidelity
(b) bad thing, should be illegal? ... like bigamy
(c) bad thing but must be tolerated? ... like adultery
Complain about this comment
309 Saga
Not quite analagous, but stopping people buying Rollers wont make Fiestas any better believe me.
310 meninwhitecoats
Now making MPs all drive round in Fiestas sounds ace.(nowt wrong with Fiestas but it aint what they are used to.)
Complain about this comment
Oh the wonder of the politics of envy. If in doubt when you have destroyed most of the education system why not go on and destroy the only means of excellence we have left the Independent Schools.
Independent schools may very well lose their charitable status if they do not take pupils from poor backgrounds open up their playing fields and facilities to state schools and share teachers. This will in effect shut a many of them down. Parents who send their children to these schools are already paying for state school places that their children do not use and are paying fees for a better educations for their children in independent schools as well. These fees will now be increased to take these poor pupils. These are not rich parents they are people who see the state system does not work and are prepared to do whatever they can for their children. What better way can the Government tell the public that they have failed in education when they need to send pupils from the state system to Independent schools. If the state system worked why would you have to.
The grammar school system was the method that worked. Over the years the Grammar school system has helped hundreds of thousands of pupils from poor backgrounds get a chance in life. They are the single best way to achieve social mobility. In their rush to make us all equal the Government has destroyed this system and in so doing taken away the chances of many poor children. The clever children now from poor backgrounds have to put up with the Comprehensive system where the teachers time is spent on the less able and disruptive pupils. This in turn holds the brightist children back and they lose interest. The Grammar school took the brightist and the best who wanted to work and pushed them onwards. A lot of poor children from the past owe everything they have to the Grammar school system.
The Comprehensive system is now turning out children that cannot read, write or do mathmatics properly. Therefore it should have been no surprise that Alan Milburn had to admit that the top jobs were mostly going to those who attended private school. This is not elitism it is simply that the top jobs are going to the best educated.
It is a British disease envy and this working class snobbery will be our total undoing. Yet when these people of such social conscience get into politics they spend their whole time feathering their own nest and sending their children to private school. Some social revolution that.
Complain about this comment
xt @ 312
unless the money, time and care they used to lavish on the Rollers is recycled into Fiesta production - then it will - then it's a super deluxe jobbie for everyone
and that, of course, is exactly the point
Complain about this comment
meninwhitecoats 308
Whats wrong with you coats the idea of the invisible man is you do not know who he is, as in this case. Claude Rains I believe, in the invisible man, you only ever heard his voice you never saw him.
The misfits is such a sad film, tragic in some ways, it was to see Gable die not long after filming, Monroe died 2 years later and montogmery Clift not long after that.
Complain about this comment
I whent to a comprehsive skool and fink I turned out all write!
I think the issues in education are:
(1) Lowering of the bar for attainment. Even my dog has 10 GCSEs at grade A*.
(2) Discipline. Education and knowledge is hard work and you have to be disciplined to achieve. In an age of celebrity and quick fixes it is expected on a plate. We need to instill a work-ethic.
The private schools debate is a red herring. I cannot see how sending all kids to the same schools will raise standards. This is the same as getting rid of streaming for academic ability in schools. All this achieves is lowering the best, slightly improving the worst but generally having a negative effect on the overall average. No, it is simple if we had a decent state schooling system then the market need for the private school would vanish.
Still what do I know? Well soon I hope to know quite a bit because I am jumping ship from private industry and taking up a teacher training position. Your future is safe with me?!?!
Complain about this comment
Good morning each & Andrew.
"Mary had a little lamb,
It and she were buddies,
It followed her to school one day,
And got an 'A' in Media Studies."
Complain about this comment
Oudeis 317
I really like that, it gave me a laugh.
Complain about this comment
Dorset_Wurzel 316
Well that gives me some hope for the future, that we may see some teachers coming in from the private sector instead of these left wing lot we have at the moment. Half of the teachers we have now are under educated themselves and behave just as bad as some of the kids. All the best teachers have either left the profession or are about to.
What brought about your decision to do this?
Complain about this comment
313 Susan-croft I agree with a great deal of what you say, particularly with regard to Grammar Schools. I was in the very first draft of "oiks" into what had been a private school up to the Education Act of 1944. Although I did not take full advantage of what was on offer at the time a lot of what I learned then, based on teachers drumming in principles which have stayed with me (like aus bei mitt nach von seit zu and gegenuber all take the dative!!!), did enable me to go forward in what I hope was a productive way. (PS on a lighter note Matthew Parris has mentioned MM today in the Times)
316 Dorset_wurzel I agree entirely with your point about the private school debate being a red herring. One of the great lies about the comprehensive system is that everyone could be equal. There are good schools, to which all parents (perhaps those described by Milburn as pushy parents) aspire as if they were grammar schools - they attract the best teachers, who on the whole want to enjoy the job satisfaction that comes with turning out children who have achieved up to the best of their ability. They claim "winners" who finish up at Oxbridge as if they were their own. To no-one's surprise they tend to love league tables. There are the indifferent schools, which, for whatever reason, cant quite make up their minds what they want to be, but are seen by parents as being second best. Once the parents have made that judgement it is self-fulfilling. Finally there are the nightmare schools from which anyone with a modicum of sense (and money) will avoid like the plague.
In my area parents know well in advance exactly where they want to send their children, and will take whatever action is needed to get into the right catchment area well in advance of the placement process. That is OK for those who own their own house, and have the funds to move at the appropriate time. Thus by magic those living in the right catchment area for the right schools tend to be people who have the money (and could afford private education) thereby keeping going in the state system what had previously only been available in the private sector.
In my view education precedes deprivation - there are many examples of children from horribly deprived backgrounds who have gone on to achieve great things. A person who leaves school without a proper education is a candidate for spending the rest of his or her life as a person for whom the great things in life will pass by. It will always be the case that education and health are the top two priorities for any government.
Complain about this comment
Milburn pontificating on everybody getting equal bite of the cherry regarding education etc. Well WE DID until this lot tried to interfere.
Grammar Schools were the saviour of working class AND privileged children and it shows, oh how it shows when you talk to people.
The problem with Labour is they are made up of two groups - working class with a chip on their shoulder or educated (sometimes from the working class) who think they are so clever they can save the world.
Complain about this comment
#311 Saga
The super rich [who I guess you are railing against] will always find ways round it, even if they have to send little Tristan abroad to school.
If a normal working person decides to make sacrifices i.e. no holidays and driving an older car to send their kids to a small local private school, I don't see that is any of our business. Their reasons for doing this are manifold and educationally I don't think the kids gain much advantage.
Everyone wants to make schools universally better and maybe we need to throw away our preconceptions about comprehensive and grammar schools.
From what I can see the local comprehensive can trap kids in their local area, which if it is a poor area may often mean a poor school unable to attract the best teachers.
The one advantage of the old style grammar school was that it brought together people from all sides of town on merit and people were able to rise above their humble beginnings.
Because of the paucity of such schools this has to some extent also been corrupted; the schools are oversubscribed and many kids are just being tutored to pass entrance exams.
Now I dont care how you classify schools but I do like the idea of having central schools with a wider intake to open up opportunities and ideas to all, although there may be cost implications.
The other option which would be very contentious would be to reserve a third of all school places for kids outside the immediate catchment area to allow kids from poorer areas to attend the better schools.
As someone who was lucky enough to attend a grammar school, I am always loathe to deny others the opportunity to better themselves .
Complain about this comment
SC
A combination of factors really.
Since my PhD I spent 10+ years doing research science. This is the hands on stuff that I really like and am good at. I found it increasingly difficult to stay at the bench and did not want a managerial role. I am a practical, creative and inventive sort not a paper pusher. Anyway I was made redundant and slipped into a software developer role. I am self taught and work from home. I enjoy it because of the creativity and flexibility but it is lonely and not very rewarding.
So instead of pursuing this as a career I have opted for teaching. I have done some work with kids as a science ambassador and enjoyed it. I feel I have a lot to offer - my subject knowledge and experience is broad and deep. And, I am more mature and have dealt with many of life's difficulties. I also genuinely think that today's kids have a lot to offer but that the system is failing them. I think that they will respond to hard work and enjoy the rewards this brings them.
I have never bothered about how much I earn and always work hard because I enjoy getting things done. Whether teaching is for me or I for it remains to be seen.
Complain about this comment
322 Meninwhite coats
"I am always loathe to deny others the opportunity to better themselves"
There is the nub of the whole problem. With the key on "the opportunity". If Milburn says that your credo is not being met, ie people are not always having the opportunity to better themselves how do you achieve such a goal?
In my view you always come back to the point that on average the brightest and best educated parents tend to earn the most money. Those with the most money can ensure that their children become the best educated who in turn etc etc. The only difference between when I was a boy and now is the sort of people who have the money has changed. They know what they want out of life, and know how to get it, including perpetuating the system as the old upper class used to do before them.
We have to find a way to make sure that the brightest get the best opportunities to succeed whatever their background or family wealth. They are the people who will ensure the future prosperity of our country, and to leave them out of the equation is a crime.
Complain about this comment
Dorset_wurzel 323
Oh my goodness a proper science teacher, music to my ears, do you know are rare you will be?
You are right kids do have a lot to offer and they are being failed by the system. You know, though, when a teacher gets it right, as I believe you will, because you have exactly the right approach, you as a pupil remember them all your life. I remember all the special teachers that gave me a start in life and will always be grateful for their commitment to me and others. Sadly they have mostly left the profession after my school closed down, but you never forget.
Mind you I feel a bit sorry for Arthur he will be a bit lonely, or maybe you could take him with you to school sometimes as one of my teachers did.
Complain about this comment
Whilst on the subject of education:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/jul/23/sats-fiasco-ed-balls-responsible
This man is reason enough alone for voting the government out.
Complain about this comment
#324 major
I quite agree - it would appear most us here have benefitted from a reasonable education and want others to share that.
I think Saga's statement about the enforcement of rigorous, "old fashioned" academic standards is vitally important - the standard of science A Levels has been eroded over the last decade.
Maybe the whole structure of schools could be changed , so that 16+ all kids go to a sixth form college suited to their needs ie academic or vocational.
I wish I knew the answers, unfortunately the whole subject seems to get politicised and people become entrenched in their viewpoint.
Complain about this comment
majorroadaheadagain 324
I can answer this really, it comes from the parents. My father had no education, consequently he came out of work quite often, it was only his tenacity to find work that kept us going. My mum was determined that her children would find a way out of Council Estate life through education. This she succeeded at, we as a family brothers and sister have all done well and this has only been achieved through education.
I was educated during the years before this Labour Government and education at this time was very good. There was a real push to bring on children from poor backgrounds.
Kids today from poor backgrounds have problems which are two fold, a lot of parents are not interested in education for their children, therefore they do not inspire them to do better. Second the education system itself is atrocious and they get no inspiration there either. In comprehensive schools the focus is not on the brightest but merely turning everyone into average performance. Thus instead of exams weeding out the clever ones the exams have been lowered to accommodate the less able.
Add to this that children now know their own power, they can no longer be told by the teacher to work harder. There are no boundaries any more and many classrooms are more like war zones, than places of learning. The parents having lost respect for teachers, side with their children over the teachers.
What I would do is first of all separate boys from girls and return to all boys and all girls schools. There are too many distractions now for either in mixed schools, they are too aware of each other these days. Go back to strict school uniform. Make teachers do after school activities in sport as they used to do. Introduce a system where the teachers have total power over pupils while they are in school hours. Make parents aware that children must be in bed by certain hours, otherwise a tired child will be sent home from school. Allow head teachers to call parents in of disruptive pupils and warn them, if they do not improve they will be expelled and that no other school will take them. Set up separate schools for really disruptive children, so they can be dealt with separately instead of destroying other childrens chances. Go back to the Grammar school system and make exams and gaining qualifications as hard as they used to be.
Complain about this comment
328 Susan Croft
I still remember my first day at school with nostalgia.
It was fantastic, toys a sandpit and crayons etc. Then suddenly I was knocked off my feet by a great swipe round the head. I was 5 yrs old.
The teacher had been calling me by my first name, a name I did not know I had as my parents always called me by my second name. I had not answered so got belted.
I told my mother who came to the school next day and saw the teacher. He says you hit him says my mom, yes says the teacher. He says you hit him on the head. Yes says the teacher. Well you can hit him anywhere else but not his head. Thanks mom.
A good early lesson that life aint always fair.
I was in a class of 60 in a very poor area and the aim of most of us was to progress to the grammar school and many of us did. Oh and we got belted and caned there as well. You knew the boundaries and the consequences if you overstepped them. Some of the discipline would be a court case these days. During an english lesson,be about 14yrs old at the time, one of my contemporaries made a sarcastic comment. He was dragged from his desk by his hair and kicked the length and breadth of the classroom and out the door to the headmasters office. We never messed with that teacher.
Complain about this comment
you guys ... private schools are not a red herring to the education discussion - no way - I'm time pressured, so just a couple of points:
1. to say that, if the state sector "worked", there'd be no need for the private option is more (facile) truism than truth - it ignores the fact that the state sector doesn't work BECAUSE OF the existence of the opt out
2. if, as you all seem to be saying, the opt out for those who can afford it is a red herring, then why ... after the relatively high level of focus/money/priority which education has received from pretty much every government over the last, say, 50 years ... are we still so far from a good education for every child? - ask yourself that, please, and think about it properly instead of chuntering stale cliches - what is the common factor ... the thing that's always been there ... the thing it's logical to conclude is holding us back? - Right
and okay, you may disagree with me but don't go kidding yourself that my analysis is driven by the "politics of envy" - that retort is no more than a cop out for people who either can't (or don't want to) see beyond the status quo, or who are shying away from the issues
Complain about this comment
The education debate rumbles on, and no doubt will continue until we get an acceptable system in place - which might be a long way off. There are no encouraging signs by any political party at present, mainly because they've all been frightened into a political correctness straitjacket. Letters in today's Times, responding unfavourably to Milburn's ideas, are revealing, and mirror some of the posts on this blog.
A persistently recurring theme is that it was political vandalism to get rid of most of our grammar schools - flagships of excellence and a valuable route forward for able pupils from all walks of life. Wilson, Callaghan, and Thatcher have a lot to answer for in this respect.
The present government has belatedly realised that comprehensive education was driven by hatred of grammar schools, and consequently focused almost entirely on academic subjects to the detriment of technical and vocational training. Tomlinson's proposals for a diploma system (probably unworkable owing to the comlexity of managing groups of schools to provide all options) is an attempt to re-introduce the opportunities that were formerly offered by technical schools/colleges and secondary modern schools - albeit there were numerous flaws in these old strands of education. Brown is fond of boasting about the 'new' opportunities offered by Tomlinson and the partially associated increase in apprenticeships. I followed a nearly identical training route in the 1950s.
The optimum solution is clear: return to the 1944 tripartite system with updates and revisions to avoid the earlier pitfalls. For example, all three streams could keep open, for all pupils, an academic route to university by having a common core curriculum, up to GCSE level, of the essential subjects like maths, English, and the sciences. Additional subjects would be tailored to suit each stream: more academic choices for the academic stream; technical, scientific and engineering choices for the technical stream; and practical choices with associated theory for the vocational stream. Beyond GCSE, all pupils would thus have a broad range of options for further progress.
Additionally, it would be appropriate to offer more academic places than in the former system (say 33% instead of about 25%), with entry not by an 11+ test, but by continuous assessment over year 6, several low profile tests at intervals, and some further input by heads and teachers. This procedure could provide parents with guidance on which stream was most suitable for their child, and some flexibility might be considered to overcome any reasonably justifiable disagreements.
Government ideas and 'initiatives' go round in circles, very slowly, but in the end they always come back to the need to provide a range of educational choices that broadly conform to the three strands of the tripartite system. I wonder when one party will be brave enough to openly recognise the obvious?
Complain about this comment
"A system that chooses not to fail the individual, fails society"
If the private sector was a red herring then all our MP's and other professions would not be filled with their ilk and they wouldn't have such outstanding results when compared with the public sector.
However, I do prescribe to the mantra "every child should be able to walk to school everyday"
Would I be correct in assuming that Saga has never been a teacher?
Complain about this comment
xTunbridge 329
You know you always put things over in the most interesting way. I really like to know about the past and what went on then.
My mum would never allow us to be hit round the head either. She always used to slap our legs. In the first example, I feel sorry for you, because it was unjust, although the teacher would not have known that. It just shows how differently parents thought of teachers then. However in the second it serves the little so and so right he should have more respect. You know people conplain about punishment these days, but it is just the sort of treatment men would get in the army. We are turning our boys into proper babies these days. That is why separate schools for boys and girls works best, what works for girls does not work for boys, who need a bit of rough treatment. Get them out playing rugby and all that is my idea, get rid of some of that aggression like they do in Australia.
A few slaps would not do the girls these days any harm at school either.
Complain about this comment
saga @ 330
Obvious answer to points 1 & 2 is to have a wholly privatised school system. Would that work? In my view the state schools have a broader academic and social range to deal with and which is why the current "common denominator" approach has produced such poor results for the money poured in. We need to recognised differences both in ability and in learning. Some favour academic routes, some vocational, some practical. The current leaning towards the academic had contributed to the problems.
The private school issue is a red herring because the problem is much more complicated than getting rid of the private schools. Focus on getting the state school system working.
Complain about this comment
How much easier things are in schools and in the wider adult world with violence in the 'right' hands; why engage with others in debate when force feels so-o-o good.
If sense could be beaten into anyone who would have the time or the inclination to teach?
No wonder the queue at the hammer stall is much longer than the one at the nail stall.
Or maybe once we learn the drill we could all go screw?
Such is the confusion between training and teaching; between education and indocrination; between thought and ought.
Me and my big mouth. (sigh)
Complain about this comment
Purely out of interest - are you an American, Tunbridge? Funny I had you down as English!
Complain about this comment
Oudeis 335
Very good, we have some talent on this blog thats for sure.
Yes I get your meaning, however I do not think (and this is something only the older people can tell me) that in school you would not have to use punishment very much, I would imagine just the threat of it would be enough.
I honestly do believe in this Country now that we are too risk averse for boys. I am sure some of the lads would like to get out and do more activities which would include some danger. It would also mean that they would most probably come in contact with other male role models, which perhaps they do not at home because there are so many single mums. It may also stop them engaging in gangs and other bad things.
Perhaps we should go back to National Service for a couple of years for boys. I mean a lot of Countries still use this for young people.
Complain about this comment
dorset @ 334
yes, of course it's complicated, not saying otherwise! - I'm not saying going 100 pc state sector is the ONLY thing needed - what I am saying is it's the Sine Qua Non - yes? - or, put another way, removing the opt out is a "necessary but not sufficient" condition of getting to where we want to be ... a good education for each and every child
good luck with the Teaching, btw - it's a great thing to do and I respect you for it
Complain about this comment
336 fp
Ah, I say I am English,my parents were English born, my grandparents Irish,Welsh, Scottish and French. What a mongrel past eh?
Where did you get the Yank idea from?
Complain about this comment
saga 338
Cheers mate. I am actually looking forward to it although I am under no illusions.
I still do not see how removing the private school sector will provide a good education for every child. The private school sector provides a better education for some but it is the role of the state school sector to provide a good education for all. How can we improve this? Well I would start by bring pride back to the schools (uniform, discipline, banning phones etc), streaming in core subjects and bringing up the status of vocational subjects. Easy to say I know. A lot of education and learning begins at home (note the research on obesity linked to parental role models) and so maybe we are reaping the seeds from a poor education system over many years. We need to get a grip of this because the emerging nations have a lot of people and we will quickly lose our educational advantage.
I would love to live in a meritocracy but I just do not think it possible. It is simply not human nature. In business it is all about your contacts and I guess in life it is the same.
Complain about this comment
337 Susan-Croft.
This risk lark makes me laugh. My 5yr to 15yr entry school was next to the main railway line , 4 tracks, (only 2 now), to the north. Inevitably the footballs went over the wall and down about 30ft onto the line.
An older boy would seek permission to get the ball and would be given it. Over a wall, down a handy signal gantry ladder and onto the track.
Nobody ever got killed. In fact the railway was our after school playground. No "Q" trains filled with British Transport Police screeching to halt to arrest us all. No the engine drivers and guards waved and we waved back. If it wasnt the railway it was the canal. Or the bombed buildings left from the war.
I think kids today lack the sense of and opportunity for adventure that we had and which aided our development .
Complain about this comment
A good education is often down to a good teacher who proves to be inspirational to his/her pupils. My Dad was a headmaster in a British school overseas which was fee paying, so I have a bias as to which school is the best. I later attended a top public school in Scotland (Blair's alma mater) and hated it - ironically the teachers in the subjects I studied at A level varied from excellent to mediocre. Private schools can be badly run: managerial incompetence is not the sole preserve of the public sector.
But in my Dad's school a Scottish teacher of Geography who really connected to the pupils was a great hit. To this day, he is retired in Scotland, pupils write to him keeping in touch and some even travel half way round the world to visit during their holidays. A good teacher can make a boring subject interesting, a bad teacher can make the interesting very dull. I do remember that this teacher also used his holidays to prepare the lessons for the next term, putting a lot of work in setting up audio visual shows etc (this was before PCs and internet).
There is no reason why a state school cannot try to emulate the standards and aspirations of the private schooling sector (some do btw), apart from the incessant political meddling. Citizen classes are a prime example: it used to be "Tony says...." and now of course it is "Gordon says...". Fortunately most children are not stupid and see through it right away. But state schools have no choice and have to do it, the private schools quite rightly chuck it in the bin.
The use of targets and rankings has been flogged to death to the point that they are now detracting from the principal role of schools - teach. Some schools also work the system, by getting kids not expected to do well in exams to enrol for GCSEs as a "private" candidate so that the school attains a higher ranking. I am in my late 40's and a key difference from then and now is learning as an education as opposed to learning with the express purpose of attaining a qualification.
My Grandfather left school aged 14 to work in the coal mines shortly before WW1, and later was called up where he survived Gallipoli and the Somme. I have seen his diaries and letters of that terrible time. His English and hand writing was immaculate albeit the prose was rather quaint - I doubt many youngsters today could write to that standard if they left school at 14.
Educational standards have been steadily eroded since WW1. Every intervention or new initiative only seems to make things worse. Just let the teachers get on with it!
Complain about this comment
Susan-croft 333
I suggest it is not the sort of treatment men would get in the army, although in a very small number of cases it goes on. As it would when you put any group of fit and physical young men together (like rugby players for instance). It went on more during National Service, but there were ways of minimising it. In my Corps a training NCO knew that if he put a foot wrong during basic training he might finish up being sent out to a normal unit, where waiting for him would be the very young men he might have used violence against. Still, I did have my head banged against a drill shed wall, which probably explains some of my posts.
As for reintroducing National Service, you will forgive me for opining that that is the last thing our services need - it has often been suggested as a sort of correction centre - "put 'em in the army - that'll sort 'em out!". I know from my name you would expect me to say so, but I believe that our forces are among the best of our young men and women, and I know from speaking to relatives who are currently in Afghanistan that they spend their lives in a state that is one removed from fear. Sort of above it. In any event, once you have introduced a 50% goal for further education or training you are really committing our youth to going hrough their rites of passage as students, lasting until they are 21 or 22. That would leave no time for National Service for those 50%.
Complain about this comment
xTunbridge 341
Do you know what, that mischievous little boy has stayed with you as well, which is great. You know kids these days just do not have the kind of fun you are talking about, they are just not that free anymore. Over anxious parents and a society that is risk averse, have curtailed all of that, because of fear. Maybe also boys in particular have lost the art of playing together as a team, because boys have always been, in the past, much more team players than girls.
Bet you did not realise at the time, what a really special era you were living through, despite the difficulties.
Complain about this comment
majorroadaheadagain 343
I see your point, about National Service, however I was thinking that there are going to be so many young people out of work in the future, that boys in particular would need another option if they could not get a job.
Do not get me wrong, I have nothing but admiration for our troops.
Complain about this comment
heaven's above, I don't believe you people! - if you're trying to wind me up, you're doing a super job let me tell you - I love you all but, you know, what a load of Twaddle!
inter alia ...
we've got Dorset (who's going to actually BE a teacher) saying that, because something which happens to be a great aspiration ... advancement by merit rather than background ... is not completely achievable, then it isn't worth working towards
and we have Susan La Croft (perhaps motivated by a sneak peek into my magazine collection) opining that "boys should be treated rough" - what's that all about?
Tunbridge looks back fondly to the days when teachers would deal with a sarcastic pupil by "dragging him out of the classroom by his hair"
Barricades (@ 332) seems to first of all agree with me that the private opt out is NOT a Red Herring, and then just gratuitously remarks that I'm obviously "not a teacher" (I'm not, btw, but I'm close to a few)
and, of course, there's Mike Jay weighing in with a densely worded analysis of the problem, and yet managing (again) to not even mention the key point! (the existence and increasing use of the opt out)
so what's a poor boy to do, I ask you, when only maybe the Major seems At The Races on such an important issue
listen, I don't mind somebody saying they oppose abolition of the opt out on the grounds of it being an infringement of personal liberty - it is ... a big one ... and I can totally respect that line of thinking - a different value judgement to mine, and that's fair enough
but to not accept that removing the ability of the most affluent/influential members of society to buy their way out of the system which educates everyone else, would naturally lead to a significant upgrade of said system ... or at least would have a fair chance of doing so ... well, that I can hardly credit
think again please, think better
Complain about this comment
I didnt get you wrong. You are just looking for solutions out of a sense of care for what could become a lost generation. Hopefully, the election tonight at Norwich will give the right message about our awful Government and we will see how things progress. Not get rid off Brown and bring in one of the other guilty parties, like grinning Jack Straw who nods during PMQs like one of those dogs at the back of a car, or,worse, Lord Snooty. But Cameron will have to show some mettle in the run up to the election, and spell out some real policies for trying to put everything right again. The way he and his wife handled the loss of his son showed me a lot about the man, which is not about Eton, but a man I think I could trust. I hope so for all our sakes. In the meantime I am going to get back to You Tube to listen to the tragic but beautiful Eva Cassidy, whose Fields of Gold and Over the Rainbow just make you melt.
Complain about this comment
346 Saga
I forgot, if it was a minor offence like looking around or out of the window your attention was redirected by a wooden blackboard rubber bouncing of your head. Softer teachers threw the chalk.
We have a saying round here ; if it ay bost dont mend it.
My Victorian built 5 to 15 entry, now still going as a primary school, sent many to grammar school and many ,including my sisters to university. For those who didnt progress academically there were classes in domestic science, mainly girls but boys could and metalwork and woodwork.This was changed in the late 50s early 60s to a primary/ secondary school set up.
This was an improvement as the new secondary schools had up to date equipment for subjects never dreamed of like technical drawing and a gym!
The Grammars continued and it worked and worked well. So why did someone mend it?
The private sector was there as well . There were several small private schools in the area as although poor it bordered on a more affluent area.
Only recently have these all folded through lack of pupils. So the really rich will still get the misnamed public school education, Genesis all met at Charterhouse,theres a bit of trivia for you,but the not so rich middle classes with aspirations for their kids cant afford it any more . I assume they have fallen back on the abomination we now have.
Yes the 40 and 50s were hard but give me that education system again and again.And we had more fun
Complain about this comment
346 Saga again
I keep forgetting small details. My sisters went to University and as we were a poor family moneywise, they whole shebang; courses , books, living was funded by a grant or, as my mother used to quaintly call it a scholarship.
I believe this was under a tory government although it may have been under legislation brought in by labour after the war. Spinning in their graves thos post war labour politicians I bet.
I dint go to uni as they say now cos I was lazy,(school report filled with could do betters), I wanted a motorbike and I got a job.The I got the motorbike.
Complain about this comment
We have all had a good reminisce about the past educational glories and failures but turn the clocks forward a year, a new government is taking control.
We cannot magic up grammar schools overnight.
There are sub standard secondary schools.
For the vast majority of people the existence of Eton and Harrow does not affect their own educational prospects.
So how do we effect change for the better in the real world starting from here?
Complain about this comment
xtun @ 348
great - understand all that - in fact, let me summarise you back to you - you want to see:
- roll back of the namby pamby 'elf and safety in schools
- stricter discipline
- mix of academic/vocational/practical courses
- enforcement of high standards by good teachers
- some streaming by ability/aptitude
as I say, great - agree with all of that - let's have it - but what, pray, has any of this got to do with keeping the private opt out ?? - that's right ... ZILCHO
let me try another way with you:
if ... just that, IF ... you believed that removing the opt out would lead (in time) to a substantial improvement in the state sector:
(a) would you then support it? ... or
(b) would you still be resistant?
if it's (a) all I have to do is convince you of the logic - and if it's (b) can you please tell me why?
Complain about this comment
MIWC @ 350
For the vast majority of people the existence of Eton and Harrow does not affect their own educational prospects
I'm sorry, Coats, but you can't frame a debate on the basis of an opening assertion which is fundamentally wrong ... leads nowhere
Complain about this comment
350 meinwhitecoats
You never did take saga away!
Why round here seems so much better I dont know. Grammar schools are alive and well in the form of the King Edward the sixth foundation.
Two independent and five voluntary aided selective state schools.Wiki it for the whole story, goes back to some 1500s royal fiddle to sieze assets but the locals kicked up and got funding for education.
Surely there must be similar elswhere around the country?
Complain about this comment
meninwhitecoats 350
I had an afternoon off, and I have really enjoyed it, we have had fun. Thanks to everyone.
There is still a serious question to answer, I know, and unfortunately we cannot turn the clock back. My fear is in reality we have lost a generation of kids. No jobs, no hope and no future.
Complain about this comment
X Tunbridge 353 on 350
I thought a German had slipped on to this blog. Or do you regard him as a sort of leader figure?
Complain about this comment
351 saga
Right we agree on the main points for improvement. Why do I find that a little unsettling?
This is getting hard, ie exhausting, glad when pub time comes. I do not believe, or remain to be convinced , that the abolition of the private school sector would make one iota of difference to the current state system.
Then , what is a private school ? A fee paying one? What about all the voluntary , mainly religious, schools. They are private but free. They are also very popular with all sectors of society as they are even now more disciplined and provide a first class education. There is unease about the growth of Muslim schools but I say that is unfair whilst you have other demonination schools.
As I have written in another post there is also the KIng Edward foundation, private grammar scools in Birmingham open to all who can pass the entrance exam.
So what do you mean by private ? Also how does the closure of "private" schools improve Gas St comprehensive, or whatever they call then this week?
I have friend whose son is a damned good maths teacher.Had an idiot head at the local grandly called High School, would have been called secondary in my day, fell out with him and now teaches maths in Switzerland. I rather think the teachers from the privates would do similar. The kids? Well God knows, from a disciplined learning envioronment to our typical state secondary ??????????/
Complain about this comment
355 Majoretc.
Achtung baby.
Complain about this comment
#346
Saga
Sorry about the 'densely worded analysis'. I'll try to do better next time, maybe using a more joky approach if that will help.
Nevertheless, I was simply drawing on past experience, when private, or independent, schools were irrelevant - as they still are. When I was at school in the 1940s, we weren't even aware that such schools existed. To suggest that forcing 7% of all pupils into the state sector would somehow (not explained) improve standards is patently nonsense. In some areas, the proportion would be even smaller, perhaps 2% or 3% or less. Abolition of most of the grammar schools adequately exploded the fashionable theory that this action would improve standards in the new comprehensives. But you are still clinging to the same idea!
This whole anti-private approach smacks of Crossland's 1960s rant against grammar schools - probably prompted by the same emotions.
And we can see the results of that.
Complain about this comment
Saga/Meninwhitecoats
Just done a rapid wiki of all the King Eds schools . There are 5,754 kids in Brum receiving a private grammar school education for free. Not bad eh?
Complain about this comment
tun @ 356
I remain to be convinced that the abolition of the private school sector would make one iota of difference to the current state system
it wouldn't - it's the future state system I'm talking about
my definition of a private school? ... one to which parents can gain entry for their offspring by paying fees
and you dodged my question, for some reason ... which was (and is) IF you thought that removing the opt out would lead to a substantial improvement in state schools ... just assume that, for the sake of this discussion we're having ... would you then support it?
Complain about this comment
re 359
Eventually maybe I may learn not to rush.
Correction: the two independent King Eds are fee paying 9k a year so dock 1,550 pupils off my free total so its ony 4,204 getting the best for nowt.
Complain about this comment
358 mikeJay
Crosland. Now there was an evil man. His rant against grammar schools was"If its the last thing I do Im going to destroy every effing grammar school in England, Wales and Northern Ireland."
He was evil when in charge of local govt as well. The party is over he told the workers.
He did say more acceptable things like he voted for Callaghan in a leadership election as the alternatives were"to choose between a crook (Wilson) or a drunk (Brown)".
He does have an interesting history, priveliged upringing. theres a surprise, and he died in 1977 from a brain heamorrage.
Complain about this comment
#350
menin...
What have we got at the moment?
Comprehensives, some good, some poor, the top ones selective, just like the old grammar schools.
City academies - comprehensives in all but name, and probably destined to fail for the same reasons.
The new Tomlinson diplomas, 17 of them (