Nobody comes out well of this...
Nobody comes well out the Guardian's revelations this morning (bar the Guardian, which seems to have a great investigative scoop on its hands).
Not the News of the World, whose newsroom seems to have spun out of control with its use -- on a massive scale -- of potentially criminal methods to get stories.
Not News International, the paper's owner, which, says the Guardian, has paid out hundreds of thousands of pounds in out of court settlements to sweep the whole matter under the carpet.
Not the rest of Fleet Street, much of which may have relied on the same private investigators as the News of the World. Just look at how some papers this morning could barely bring themselves to touch this story.
Not the police who, apparently presented with evidence of widespread criminal activity, took very little action. Indeed it is possible that, despite evidence that the then Deputy Prime Minister might have had his phone compromised, they didn't even inform him.
Not the Crown Prosecution Service, which seems to have gone along with News International version of events that there was no systemic invasion of privacy involving scores of journalists, just a rogue journalist and a dodgy private investigator.
Not the court system, which, according to the Guardian, has been complicit in making sure the details did not become public by agreeing to the facts being locked away in sealed files.
Not the Press Complaints Commission, which is meant to regulate the press, but which found no evidence of wrongdoing.
Not Rupert Murdoch, the boss of News International, who claims, extraordinarily, that he knows nothing of £1m out of court settlements. (Hard to believe he's "allowed the lunatics to take over the asylum", as one former Murdoch editor put it to me this morning).
Not for Andy Coulson, now David Cameron's spin doctor in chief but the deputy editor and editor when what the Guardian calls "his journalists' repeated involvement in the use of criminal methods to get stories" took place.
Mr Coulson says he knew nothing of illegal activities though he did resign in the wake of the jailing of his royal correspondent.
Many will find it hard to believe the editor knew nothing if the malpractice was as wide and systemic as the Guardian claims. Others will say if he didn't know, he should have. Some might think he was either incompetent or complicit. Either way, Mr Cameron has a problem on his hands, though not as big as the one Mr Murdoch is holding.
If, as the Guardian claims, between 2,000 and 3,000 people were targeted and had their privacy breached in various ways, then some of the names already mentioned could get together to mount a multi-million pound class action against the Murdoch company. Just starting that process would almost certainly unseal the documents. Then more than the cat would be out of the bag ... and the potential damages unlimited.
As they used to say in Fleet Street, this story will run and run and run ....
Andrew Neil, BBC political editor Nick Robinson and Former Home Secretary Charles Clarke on BBC Radio Four's Today show:
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If they spied on members of the govenment, then surely that's an act of treason.
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so the labour revenge / spin machine is out for revenge. while all the points you make are absolutely valid, it is highly likely the public at large will also see the dab hand of the dark arts behind it ( sorry Harry Potter mania in my house) with Peter Mandelson playing Lord Voldermort and Alistair Campbell et al his desciples. Labour could easily come out of this looking bad too.
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Who do the police report to ?
Who do the Crown Prosecution Service report to ?
Bearing in mind that Jacqui Smith was coverting this sort of ability herself, it couldn't be that this was the reason why it was decided to make no fuss over it, could it ?
If it exploded into a scandal it would have scuppered her attempts to allow the Secret Service to do the same.
Am I just being a cynic ?
David Cameron should drop his pal like a red hot brick if he has any sense.
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Under the Freedom of Information Act,when is the best guess that we can have a look at the full lost of 2 - 3000 names Andrew?
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It is hardly surpising that corective actions wern't taken sooner because this matter was being handled by a QUANGO at the Police Federation,The SFO and the Attorney General.
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what happened to comments 3&4,wake up MODS please.
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This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
Gremlins attcked Andrews blog
I posted a blog not 5mins ago and was allowcated blog #5 after 1.2. and now I have been given # 7.
H-e-llllo, anyone home
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Excellent post, Andrew, and you pinpointed all the important issues on last night's Newsnight.
Is this really Cameron's commitment to the 'new politics'? This scandal had already broken when he appointed Coulson, and as you've suggested, the idea that the editor was unaware of how these stories were being obtained.
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Excellent Blog Andrew, no-one involved in this will come out smelling of roses.
All those sealed files will have to be published soon, when this happens this could be the Fleet Street version of MPs expenses.
Those dismissing this story as a smear on the Tories just don't seem to get it. As Andrew suggests, if this was in the U.S., the lawsuits could bring down whole media companies.
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The question raised by criminal phone tapping by journalists is who were its recipients apart from the press? and how the information was used? The culprits are among the most vociferous opponents of surveillance by the state like ID cards and cameras.
The British press are power brokers in a system of relationships where competing elites represent different social interests like trade unions and employers associations.Other power brokers include lobbies and pressure groups.
Knowledge is power,and a section of the press hagve arrogated rights over the citizen denied even to the security services.This is not a fourth estate but a state within a state.
Does the press influence voting?, and has illegally obtained information been used for political purposes?
Repeated surveys show that politically partisan readers use press content to reinforce their opinions, while less committed voters are influenced politically if exposed to a consistent point of view.With a free press this is not undemocratic,but to exert influence through deep pockets and criminal activity most certainly is.
In anger.
Bryher
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FOI Commissioner
They must be very busy at the FOI office as I have not been assigned a case officer and my application is apparently in the queue awaiting process.I refer to the Exeter infamous PFI schools.
On the 9th of June, they advised me they were dealing with my application, they advised me by phone today I am awaiting a case officer.
Oh well,sit back and wait,we have time on our side.
I can also advise the readers that I received a polite email from Cornwall County Council advising me my FOI request for the Project Agreement for a Cornwall PFI school was being considered.
Now why can't Devon County Council be as polite and cooperative??
Don't touch that fan
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# 2
You miss the point lmcgarry. It's one thing for the governmnt to manage the media and information to suit its political agenda, but if there is ever the hint that they do the same to the courts and police, then that is a very serious matter.
The Home Office were wanting these very same abilities for themselves, to be able to snoop on citizens e-mails and phone calls, so it would have been very much against their interest to stir up a public outcry about people having their privacy intruded upon.
Let's face it, the victims mentioned so far would not excite the interest of any but the saddest Big Brother fan, and there are much more exciting targets that could generate some big stories. People who need to hide their information do so, and can easily thwart any government snooping, but as we have discovered, our politicians are reassuringly stupid.
I'd hardly consider John Prescott's mash and pie orders to be sensitive information, but if he's upset about it, he should investigate why he wasn't told.
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Félicitations M Andrew Neil... your fearless position on this issue sends your credibility rocketing as a journalist, all the more so because you have for 'that' organisation in the past.
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A deal was definetly done to sweep this under the carpet. Who were the participants?
What was the trade off?
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If Coulson is implicated and there is evidence, he will undoubtedly have to leave his post. If the opposition ratchet up the story he may well have to leave anyhow for political expediency.
The NOTW is a noxious rag and nothing it does would surprise me, sadly my expectations of the police and justice are so low that their complicity does not surprise me either.
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Nobody comes out well of this...
Here we go with this catch-all inclusivity again.
Though the mea culpa on the BBC's part ('...just how outraged are you, and just who do you think should resign, Mr. Prescott? Meanwhile, let's wheel out Ken, Polly, Kevin & Michael to discuss this objectively on Newsnight') is refreshing.
Suffice to say the British politico-media WUVI establishment a) suck, and b) deserve each other.
One day we'll get verified news, sourced professionally and commented upon, agenda-free, objectively.
But I doubt in my lifetime.
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Andrew,
I had assumed an old newspaper man like yourself would know the difference between allegations and 'revelations'. There's a lot of supposition in your post and the Guardian but not much real evidence.
If this proves to be a lot of smoke and no fire I hope you'll retract just as loudly.
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Afternoon Andrew,
seriously can't wait for your show this evening, I may even stay up to watch it, no this is important and you must listen.
I think this will come down to who knew what and when they knew it. It is beyond belief that journalists have not been listening in, and their editors not know about it. If they did not ask how certain information was obtained then they are just as guilty as any of the miscreants.
Mind you there is a problem because has anybody raided the offices of the Daily Telegraph to find the source of MPs expenses, and if not why not. We cannot have the Press being above the law. Yes they are a free press but the Harry story showed how they are not actually free at all, ask kindly and stories are not printed. The soft underbelly of our, so called, democracy is slowly being revealed.
I listened to parliament and thought that the most interesting intervention was when a minister, not the Home secretary, was asked about a visit to Brown when changes to the law in respect of journalists were proposed but an individual from the News Corporation visited the PM, and the changes were not implemented. Just as the bankers now run the country, it would appear that they run the country jointly with some of the media, and I do not mean the BBC.
I fail to understand how Cameron can keep Coulson in his job, who pays for Coulson, surely the taxpayer does not pick-up the bill.
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Is it just me that sees the irony and hypocrisy of the so called great and the good being outraged their phones have been tapped.
Especially when many of them support a govt that purchases the same technology that Iran used to track beat torture jail and murder many of its people to be used against every person in this country for keeping their emails phone calls etc?
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Good Afternoon Andrew,
I notice that you took my advice and started a new blog, well done Sir. I have put this comment on your previous blog but consider that it would be more appropriate to place the comment here, no listen this is important, and don't interrupt, what the line has gone dead, click, click, click, oh thank you I thought we had lost the line there but we haven't, click, click.
One can hardly fail to notice that Cameron used the form of words 'without justification' in respect of the Coulson Affair. It is another example of the ends justify the means. It is up to the law to decide if phones can be tapped, it is not up to journalists. Illegal activity is illegal activity, there must be no cover up in the White House.
If journalists listened to conversations illegally, and they find illegal activities have taken place, then they must go to the police with their evidence, only they can't, because the evidence was obtained illegally.
Complain about this comment. Now who could possibly complain about this comment, oh, is that blank head office, click, click, phone line goes dead.
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John Prescott claimed that the situation regarding Andy Coulson was similar to Damian McBride. Not for the first time John Prescott is not comparing like with like. Damian McBride had to resign because of his activities whilst serving as an advisor at 10 Downing Street. So far, there is nothing to indicate that Andy Coulson has been acting in an improper way whilst working for David Cameron. Possibly David Cameron was unwise to employ Andy Coulson, but that is a different issue.
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17. JunkkMale
"Suffice to say the British politico-media WUVI establishment a) suck, and b) deserve each other."
Too true.
Both Labour and the Tories have grovelled for Murdoch's blessing. It would be sweet justice if this story blew up in both their faces.
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#21 T A Griffin (TAG)
Perhaps the most appropriate quote from the Nixon Era is from the NY Comedy Club.
"What did the President know? and When did he stop knowing it?"
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18. At 2:30pm on 09 Jul 2009, TheFirstRalph
I had assumed an old newspaper man like yourself would know the difference between allegations and 'revelations'.
Having watched our hero at lunchtime, I'd also have hoped that having gone from reporting the news to being part of it, there might be pause before deciding 'I find it hard to believe...' constitutes a legitimate contribution from one who has gone from being an independent commentator to host and representative of a non-partisan news programme. There is much that exists that is in the realms of belief, personal or otherwise. That's why I like to have the facts, unadorned, on which to make a judgement.
So until we know, I'd really rather BBC anchors would keep their opinions to themselves, and leave the hypotheticals to what one is sure will be a balanced discussion group to come. Well, possibly not if Newsnight's Mr. Horrocks is in charge of guest invites.
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The appropriate question for David Cameron is why did he hire him in the first place ?
Was editor of the News of the World on his cv ?
I can't quite follow the logic of the statement that the police were under no obligation to tell other victims that their phones security had been compromised (if they knew it). So they are ebtitled to look the other way when they spot crimes being committed, and what if natinal security were involved or if this enabled a kidnapping to take place ?
I do believe in some areas that police patrols go around the streets alerting householders if they leave their doors or windows open. Is this illegal and irresponsible behavior on their part ?
Maybe the police and security services would prefer people not to be so security conscious.
It was nice to hear that our Chancellor has put the banks in their place - by doing nothing. The triumverate of 'wise monkeys' who didn't spot anything last time are going to be given greater powers to do nothing if they spot anything amiss next time. Can they tell us what was amiss last time ? I ask that as a test to see if they know what to look for.
Perhaps they'll be on the lookout for a skull and cross bones on securities marked 'toxic waste'. How a Socialist Chancellor can have stood by and watched the banks rape and pillage the economy at the expense of taxpayers, and then bail them out with what appear to be hearty congratulations, makes me wonder if they haven't been replaced with lookalikes.
Having invested the future of the country in the banks, he has locked us into gambling our future on their success, whatever the consequences. This is the most fundamentally irresponsible act any Chancellor could perform, and it's no wonder they're shelling out bonuses again. It's party time - for banks.
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1. Can we follow the money
2. Can we affix the word -moat to it?
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# 11 bryhers
"Does the press influence voting?, and has illegally obtained information been used for political purposes?"
Well the first point can never be wholly substantiated, but the fact that all the parties make such efforts to fawn over editors and proprietors speaks volumes.
Some of this info has certainly been used for political purposes. For starters, the NOTW used their phone-tap evidence to destroy Simon Hughes' bid for the Lib Dem leadership.
One can only guess about the rest. I'm reminded of that Sun leader in around '98, where they claimed to be in possession of a tape recording of a Labour minister with a rent boy, and claimed that we were being run by a 'gay mafia'. Strangely, these guardians of the public interest never elaborated further.
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Dear Mr Neilsen,
Do you thinkg that these 'transcripts' are for real...? http://moralorder.mediumisthemess.com/blog Still trying to work it out.
There was a chap on PM (Radio4) who said that this kind of thing is commonplace? When you were at the ST did you ever come across it??
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It has to be said that the people they are alleged to have 'tapped' are possibly some of the least consequential celebrities you could select.
What world shattering exclusives could they have been hoping to get ?
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LOL, I take it you've never read the 'News' of the World.
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I thought all this was a bit of a smoke screen and so it appears. The Grauniad has been desperately trying to unseat the Telegraph as essential reading and this was an attempt to make us think it had a scoop. The police and the CPS are quite clear that the Grauniad had nothing new to report and no evidence for its wild claims and so no-one else will be investigated. The Labour and Lib-dem MPs who were calling for Andy Coulson's resignation look a bit silly now, and David Cameron has once again shown some deft political judgement. I am pretty sure that if he had any reason to suspect Coulson had been up to no good he'd have sacked him straightaway - he's totally ruthless in that respect.
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I am sorry Andrew you have called this one completely wrong in my opinion. Coulson has never been charged with anything therefore to expect the man to never work again in his area of expertise because members of his staff had committed certain misdemeanours is not fair. If the only thing Cameron has done wrong is to give a man a second chance then this does not call his judgement into question as you suggest. Now if he had taken us into an illegal war, brought the Country to its knees with debt, Mcbride smears, I think you see where I am going, that would be poor judgement.
This is about the press not about politics, and as I have no time for the press anyway, so todays revelations were no surprise to me.
You should have looked more into what brought this story about a Labour leaning Newspaper such as the Guardian reports a very loose story about a subject that is quite old which affects one of Camerons staff. You really should have smelt a rat. I would say Mandelson is involved in this somewhere.
Then we have people like Prescott coming out of the woodwork crying foul play. Considering Prescotts past I do not think it was his politics the press were interested in. Then there is Campbell saying Camerons judgement is bad and Coulson should resign. This man worked for Bob Maxwell before he was hired by Blair. Is that poor judgement by Blair then to hire him, I do not remember anyone saying so. I wonder if Campbell remembers Dr. Kelly because I do. I am not interested in anything he has to say.
The Police had already investigated this at the time and no charges were ever brought against Coulson. You may think he should have known about what is staff were doing but there is absolutely no proof that he did, so it would be wrong to make that assumption.
I think the real story is to investigate what the Guardian are up to. However this has nothing to do with politics except why the Guardian decided to recycle an old story.
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Andrew, The work of a newspaper editor must be really difficult as you will no doubt remember. However, they are a super brand of people who need to know everything that is going on in the organisation. It must be something like being a senior manager in an organisation like the BBC? Which reminds me of the Andrew Sachs affair, which was equally despicable. I was wondering how many senior managers in the BBC resigned or were disciplined over that incident? Were any of them as culpable as Coulson?
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Andrew As a former editor you will know how difficult it is to be aware of everything that is going on in your paper. Rather like being a senior manager in an organisation like, say, the BBC. The thing about Coulson is that as soon as he knew about it he resigned. I am not sure that BBC senior managers did the same thing when the disgraceful Jonathan Ross/Andrew Sachs affair came to light? If not, why not? Should there have been a parallel here, ie top men must know everything which is why they get to the top and therefore they resign when something goes wrong? Incidentally, Gordon Brown wouldnt have lasted three days on that basis.
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Mr Coulson resigned because the buck stopped with him. What a pity New Labour ministers rarely do the same. When they do have no alternative but to go then some not only return once but twice. What does that say for judgement? But then they are only 'running' the country. No wonder it's in such a mess.
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I am not going senile (I hope) but 34 disappeared so I wrote 35. Then 34 reappeared. How does that happen? Also, can someone tell me how to negotiate around the blog, say to your own last posting? I scroll down through the article to "post your comment", press it and then scroll back up through the comments until I reach my last posting. There must surely be a more hi-tech was of getting around?
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#34
You're not seriously comparing the Andrew Sachs incident to the most powerful private media company in the land illegally bugging thousands of telephones, including Cabinet Ministers?
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Does Minister in charge of Croquet constitute a cabinet position ?
Actually the police have claimed that he was never 'tapped' the poor outraged darling. At least his recipe for pie and mash is safe.
My belief is that to 'tap' a person it is conscious act to target a specific person, that is, it isn't a random chance happening. In which case, what misguided fool selected these people for 'tapping' ?
Maybe someone was doing undercover selections for a Celebrity Game Show.
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Andrew, you are quite right to draw attention to these serious allegations. But it's a but rich hearing the indignation of the likes of Charles Clarke and John Prescott when it was their government that introduced the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 (RIPA) AKA The Snooper's Charter.
Of course it's not right to snoop and bug people's phones - unless it's part of a serious crime investigation by the police or security forces. But under RIPA, local authorities can intercept emails and spy on citizens for no good reason. Labour MPs understandably don't want to be spied on, but what about the rest of us? Labour has created Surveillance Britain.
Another worrying aspect of this is that David Cameron says he wants to give new powers to local authorities. This is a serious mistake! Local authorities should not be given more powers, but instead have most of their existing powers taken away. Local Councils should stick to collecting rubbish and mending the roads, not carrying out surveillance.
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Dont remember the old chap with the scanner who intercepted the Charles Camilla call being hauled up before the beak .
Have things changed ?
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good Morning Andrew,
stayed up to watch the Itchy and Scratchy show tonight and thought the look on your face and the tone in your voice at one point was a gem, click, sorry line went dead for a moment. What was the point at which I thought you excelled yourself, why when a certian Porillo person used the term, in respect f banking regulation, no wait this is imprtant, you know I am always serious, no it was when Michael said 'risible' and then said what he meant was 'laughable' because the word 'risible is not often used now and few people would know what it meant! Please Andrew the people, who are more probably quite like me know what the word 'risible' means.
I think that young Michael ought to apologise. In full and on the front page please, click, sorry the line temporarily went silent, goodnight, and God Save the Queen. There will be no white wash in the White House. As you say nobody comes out well of this...There will be an inquiry, action this day, click, silence reigned.
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Andrew,
I thought that I would read my mail before retiring to my bed, it is late after all, and I was surprised to receive an announcement from Kathleen Sebelius (Sec for Health and Human Services), Janet Napolitano (Sec for Homeland Security) and Arne Duncan (Sec of Education) all of these positions are of course in the USA.
Now consider the importance of these people and little old unimportant me and what are they contacting me about, why 2009 H1N1 virus. Why have I not had a mail from our equivalent here in the UK. I feel very priviliged and if anybody likes I will make this note available to all those who would also like to be contacted. Maybe I am more highly regarded than even I thought.
Thank you America, now about that surge in Afghanistan. Now go and wash your hands Terry, click. Memo to the police man on the door of Number 10 when the President shook your hand, maybe Brown was right not to offer his hand in friendship.Click.
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There are a lot of unanswered questions of who what where why
The police seem not to want to go over this again they have come up with there answer of there is no new information
This seems to be that Police only did every closed investigation first time round and settled for the quick result that would satisfy every one without looking too closely at the matter
If it had been a member of the public they would of seized every computer every CD, DVD, every file and any other form media that could hold any information to what they had been up too
If this is so the Police have allot of questions to answer to why they did not look more closely into the matter
As the EDITOR of News of the World I would of thought that he would of wanted to know allot about the scoop of where and how they got the information before it was sent to the print room and any scoop that is likely to bite back would of had to go to the legal department for checking for liability first
This raise allot more questions than anwsers
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Is it just phone tapping on this topic,I can't believe they have not been snooping on emails also. There is the technology out there.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#44
you are of course absolutely correct. There must an immediate inquiry into these events. Have the police been compromised as many of us think. Have government ministers been compromised, as many of us think. Have members of the royal family been compromised as many of us think. Who knows what, when did they know it, what questions were not asked which should have been. Colonel Gaddafi now meets Brown, it is a question for the Scottish courts, nothing to do with me I'm only the Prime Minister, elected in Scotland, by Scottish voters, prisoners are nothing to do with me. Sorry click, just heard it on the news. So now the PM meets with people who have the blood of innocents on his hand, a former terror state, and so it ends.
Today five coffins are being brought back from Afghanistan, because in twenty years time some Taliban leader will be in Downing Street as the Head of a country, a corrupt country, and flags will be flown, bugles sounded, and wreaths laid. What exactly is the point Brown, tell us, because what are you going to do when parliament is on holiday, an extended holiday. Every wednesday before PMQs you or your replacement whilst you are away, reads out the names of the dead, what arrangements have you made. Can we put in place something to stop your charade, if you really cared Brown you would bring the troops home now.
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Good morning Andrew and all
Can I make an impassioned plea that we move on from this? I find it a tedious and boring story about the media talking about a story written by the media about the media possibly doing something to get a story! Well in journo-land this may have elements of Spooks and The Bill and be fascinating but I cannot see any news in it. Yawn, yawn, yawn.
Meanwhile we have 5 of our brave soldiers being flown home from Afghanistan. I still do not understand what the mission is in Afghanistan and I do not have any confidence that the government do either. It changes like the wind with the troops trapped in an unconventional war theatre. Maybe the next cabinet meeting should be held in Helmand to sharpen political action! Anyway we need a plan which has achievable military and reconstruction goals for Afghanistan otherwise this tragedy will go on and on.
We also have the farce of the G8 summit (peak of pointlessness?). On climate change they have a target of 2 degrees C by 2050. They can pluck any damn figure they like from the air but WHAT are they going to do to cut the emissions? Not pass our pollution to the developing world but CUT OUR emissions. And today they are talking about feeding the poor. There are going to be darkened times ahead if the human race does not contain its population growth and the pollution to the planet. We need action NOW not fine dining and weasel-words.
Add to this the economic green shoots vs. unemployment, the 125 per cent mortgage and the "business as usual" banking sector. This puts into perspective the sheer nothingness of this story.
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Good morning each & Andrew.
Why not, in line with what was done with the expenses of MP's, publish ALL e-mails on a public forum to be scrutinised by 'Joe Public'?
They could also be sent at random to other e-mail accounts for the once-over.
And when the covers are on at Lords why not broadcast mobile phone conversations? Or played on rail platforms to those waiting?
"Tanoy, or not annoy."; that is the question. A 'wham-bam-spam-scan'?
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#33 Susan
The Guardian has broken a number of stories against the government of late, so I don't believe there was any ulterior motive behind breaking this story. It is a perfectly valid story in the public interest.
I would be more interested to know how widespread this practice is, I cannot believe the rest of the papers have not used dubious sources even if they have not directly commissioned them.
The political interpretation of this is an entirely different matter, after months on the rack Labour are bound to be all over this, whether or not Coulson has a case to answer.
If Coulson had knowledge of this, he would be foolish not to admit it because at some stage some old hack is bound to come forward and spill the beans.
The jury is out on Coulson but I dont think this will do any long lasting damage to Cameron or sway many floating voters , including some infamous bloggers who claim to float.
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#48
The trouble with Afghanistan is the Prince Harry story. 'We do bad things to bad people'. The silence of the press. The computer screen as he called up the air strike. Where is Harry now. Why is he not in Afghanistan with his men, leading from the front, if I can't be with the men then I will quit the army. The whole of our occupation was always going to be a disaster once we took our eye off the ball and went into Iraq.
I say again look at the death list of the British soldiers since 2001 in Afghanistan. How many died at the hands of the enemy until early 2005. That is the story. This is now Browns war, he is not up to the job. The soldiers sign up to serve their Queen and country, to defend their country, not to be in Afghanistan, achieving nothing, it is the old WWI song 'we're here because we're here, because we're here. because we're here because...'.
Come on Brown tell us what are you going to do every wednesday, how are we to be told of the deaths, to keep the bombers off the streets of Britain, I hope that you have a great holiday, go off with the wife and children and have a great time, probably with your American friends, maybe you could give a knighthood to your buddy Obama, mind you he hasn't driven off a bridge leaving behind the body of a young woman. Now that deserves a knighthood does it not Gordon.
We can't afford the war in Afghanistan, we know it, you know it, sending eighteen year old boys to their deaths, how can you sleep at night, please end this now. These are sad days, this is lions led by donkeys. This is totally unacceptable, it is time for this to end. The Americans will do there best for a year, maybe eighteen months at most. Obama will have the troops home by the next Presidential elections, he will not stand for re-election with the Americans in Afghanistan, and what will Britain do then. Consider this. Did we boycott the Moscow Olympic games because of the Russian invasion of Afghanistan, well revenge is best tasted cold.
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TAG
The problem is that the purpose of the "mission" in either Iraq or Afghanistan has changed over time. Classic mission creep. As I have said before we have a shameful history in these places. I understand the notion that we are there to protect our security here but I just do not buy it. Economic and social development will improve the security in these regions not military intervention. We are breeding resentment. And we have the classic arguement that we are in there now so to get out is not an option. Well where are those that took us in? Not doing badly. How can they sleep at night?
I do not profess to have the answers but I do know we have been in Afghanistan a long time and cannot see an end to it. The "enemy" is not a defined entity, it comes and goes moving around this vast region. Was nothing learnt from Vietnam?
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Andrew
Sadly I read another 2 soldiers have lost their lives in service of this country. I would let everyone in the UK listen to all my phone messges and read all my emails to save just 1 soldier from dying.
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As the UK forces are fighting side by side with the Americans in Afghanistan, the BBC and the rest of the British press are in an excellent position to compare attrition rates (casualties and deaths). Not just a numerical analysis, but also comparing the state of equipment in particular incidences where US forces avoided land transport in favour of using helicopters.
From a tactical perspective we also should effect a comparison, as US tactics have evolved enormously in the last five years. It may well be that the British Army will have to play catch up.
If the BBC does not have any correspondents that could do this job, may I suggest they ask someone of the calibre of Tim Collins (ex Colonel irish Guards I believe and has experience of theatre). The press does have a role to play here - announcing the number of dead every other day is not an acceptable level of journalism.
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Andrew,
when will the politicians admit it. We have screwed up again, sorry, but that is the way it goes. We will pull the troops out, it has been a terrible waste, and nothing has been gained, oh we have made a few more enemies but we can deal with them, bit of enhanced interrogation technique, a bit of either passive or extra-rendition, bit of Mr de Menezes, and a bit more national security to keep you in your place, and then we can get back to normal. Oh freedom of the press, no don't worry about being in a police state, we've dealt with that.Click the line goes dead.
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Our government are so full of Human Rights and performing in accordance with 'right on' principles they think they can do war in the same humane way. How stupid.
War is a bloody and gory business. If you're fighting a war for the survival of your country you overlook your own attrocities (Dresden, Hiroshima) because you're fighting for survival and need no convincing that the ends justify the means.
Sending a half hearted military force to war in glorified camper vans against an enemy you can't see, you can't shoot, who have the place booby trapped, is just asking to have your force whittled away by attrition.
The government couldn't be doing a better job of stoking up terrorist anatagonism if that were its intention. Then by creating a flood of refugees, in future other terrorist won't need to travel to Afghanistan to attend training camps. The analogy being that if you have problems with some rogue bees, the solution isn't to go over to the bees nest and give it a good kicking, or bring it home with you.
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Hey Andrew - can you please start asking all these celebs that are popping up whingeing whether or not they actually changed the PIN on their voicemail, or if they changed it to something obvious like their year of birth?
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Pesto's blog is interesting today about how Fleet St acquires its information.
Phone tapping of private individuals is never acceptable but how easily we accepted the publishing of the illegally obtained expenses information by the Telegraph.
Are we all prepared to tolerate bending the rules when it suits?
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Andrew, or should it be Anita today (lovely to see the boots and high heels again),
my point is the people who are wheeled out to tell us that the issue over reporters is really for the westminster bubble and we peeps out in the sticks, exeter, should really just get over it. Nothing of any interest, and it will all go away. Well may I say to the lounging Scot sounding person from the 'Daily Mash' that he is wrong, very wrong indeed.
The people in London just do not get it. With every soldier killed or injured in our foreign wars the disgust of the British people grows. I get angry when the politicians mouth platitudes to our brave soldiers, they are fighting for our freedom, for democracy, for the rights of women, for education, to keep the streets of London from terrorists. Well bizarrely I watched Torchwood last night, and there was a speech at cabinet by a woman minister who was going along the lines of giving up the children to the invaders from space, but none of the children of any of the cabinet could possibly be selected. There must be no deaths of the 'elite'.
Now then the day of the metaphor is not yet dead. We can still say things about invaders from outer space which we could not possibly say about our loved politicians. Exactly how many MPs have actually got any close family members serving on the front line in Afghanistan. Oh and please don't tell me about Harry having served at the front, please do not insult my intelligence. We eventually had to retreat from Iraq, deserting the people, and abandoning them to their fate, it will be the same in Afghanistan, they might as well do it sooner rather than later.
Just let's get the elections out of the way, click, then we can see the success of all of our efforts.
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58 meninwhitecoats
Come on Sir, there is legislation that protects whistleblowers when it is in the public interest.
Sure the Telegraph made money out of it by increased circulation but surely you cannot argue that the expose was anything but in the public interest. Especially when you see the sanitised info eventually published by parliament.
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meninwhitecoats 50
I hold my hands up and confess, I do not care much about our celebrities problems. They use the media in most cases when they want to make a point or need publicity for themselves because their star is fading. And then have the audacity to complain when there private lives are reported.
We would not have found out about the MPs expenses for instance if the rules had not been bent a little. We find out how our MPs are behaving through the press therefore they do have their uses and I would not like to see them censored.
We have a culture in this Country of Government spying on the public yet we seem surprised that the press are doing the same. When the tables are turned and the Government are the ones spied on they do not seem to like it much. Prescott and Campbell should know people who live by the sword die by the sword.
However, my main point to Andrew Neil was that this has nothing to do with politics. He made a great deal about Cameron employing an ex Editor as a judgement issue. Well the man had not been accused of anything, therefore there was nothing wrong in my opinion with Cameron employing him.
The majority of people are saying Coulson is very good at his job therefore until it is proved he has done something inappropriate while employed in his current job or some form of misdemeanour in a previous job, I do not know what the point is. Its not just the News of the World, I would imagine most newspapers employ these sort of tactics in one way or another, it was no surprise to me.
I believe the Guardian only turned against the Government for a while when they thought Labour could not win the next election and they hedged their bets. However now I think they believe Labour is in with a chance, as do I, so they are changing their stance. Never trust a newspaper is my code.
I am hoping now we can get back to real politics and dealing with some of the problems we are facing as a Country, not this load of tripe. We have our soldiers dying everyday and yet our concentration seems to be on all this superfluous stuff.
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xTunbridge
It was a rhetorical question - I was musing how easily we can accept the Telegraph's actions but how we all rush to attack the gutter press [myself included].
I really do wonder how widespread this practice is and how many tabloid editors are feeling a little bit uneasy at the moment.
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Andrew you severely criticised "Sealed Court Documents" on UK TV the other day. You asked if it indicated that The UK Judiciary were now being improperly influenced and bowing to pressure, given revelations of News Of World securing a secret deal in court via "Sealed Documents" - which meant UK Politicians & Celebs phone-hacked were kept in the dark.
SURELY this is the time to attack Court Secrecy in the Kaupthing Bank Collapse Case - leaving 000's of VICTIMS totally in the Dark
At the moment the UK Judiciary acts like a "Court of Star Chamber", with secret assessments, of secret evidence, with secret documents, against secret victims- IS THIS UK JUSTICE BEING DONE & BEING "SEEN" TO BE DONE ?
You are right to get this issue in the public domain. KEEP IT UP PLEASE
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Why are you so bad at doing polls?
The questions asked in your last one were loaded as if designed to produce a required response not determine opinion. Adding phrases like 'on things like schools and hospitals' or 'including nurses, doctors and policemen' draws the respondents attention to specific services and public servants and thus narrows what is a much broader issue. If you had asked the questions with 'on things like ID cards, and consultancy' or 'including spin doctors and consultants' you would have got the opposite answer.
A cynic might suggest that you wanted a 'no cuts' result and loaded the questions accordingly.
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There's nothing more intoxicating than knowing somone else's secrets even if they are of no relevance to anything important. That was one of the attractions of the MP's expenses scandal, not that it exposed their financial irregularities, but that it revealed some unusual details of their private lives.
What is more amusing and tittilating, that a TV personality fiddles their tax return or that he/she has some legal but strange and embarrassing sexual hang up ?
That's life. All you then need to do is to get some witness, after the event, to confirm it to you, and then you can hide the illegality of your source.
BADABING - as they say.
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..seems to have....seems to have...says the Guardian...apparently...it is possible...seems to have...according to the Guardian...some might think...as the Guardian claims....could get together...
Not much of a story for anyone who's looking for facts? Except for the fact that its all unsubstantiated allegation.
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38 Garageflower2 I tried to reply to your comment to my 34 but it was removed. I can see the "Old Man criticises the BBC" headline now. What I said in my reply was something to the effect that I was not seriously considering the Coulson/NOW affair as comparable in importance as the Andrew Sachs/Jonathan Ross business other than as an example of how people in top places may not know what is going on their behalf, and therefore dont always consider that it was their responsibility and that they should resign.
I did consider the Sachs/Ross/Brand affair to be a serious contender in understanding how some people behave the way they do today. But this Coulson affair is much more important in that it has sparked a political witch-hunt. I was bemused by the comment that "David Cameron has a much more serious problem on his hands". What is that problem? He has taken in a man he acknowleges is being given a second chance. Gordon Brown did that more than once for Lord Snooty, so where do Labour get off rushing out the troops (a motley crew of Clarke, Prescott and Campbell) to stir it up. "Clarke gives Cameron a piece of Paper at Norwich" shock horror. It makes you wonder when Hazel Blears and Ed Balls are going to appear.
David Cameron must expect more of this as he moves on towards ousting the worst Prime Minister of my lifetime. The dirty tricks will come thick and fast. However, at the next election it will be a choice between Gordon Brown, who has done more than anyone to put this country close to ruin, Nick Clegg, who is from a party who will take Europe without asking any questions and whose earlier election proposal was a penny on income tax to solve the NHS, and David Cameron, who is untried but is making all the right noises, to such an extent that Lord Snooty, Balls, Byrne and a few other political rotweilers are in there covering his every move. We live in (debt) interest ing times.
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Like the bankers last year, and the politicians last month, News International is today peddling the Rotten Apple theory.
Kelvin MacKenzie, thinks former Sunday Times editor Andrew Neil is at the heart of a dastardly commie plot. Which only goes to show the decrepit state of the former Sun editor's political compass, and how little attention we should therefore pay to his ravings. He thinks everything is a red plot. How does it feel to be accused of being a subversive Trotskyite, Andrew?
Meanwhile, the expected legal action is brewing. The News of the World has spent a long time making and selling enemies. Hard, professional fighters like Vanessa Phelps and Max Clifford. I can't see mercy in their eyes, only the greed and vengeance which is at the heart of the Sun's value-system. Those who live by the sword.... etc etc
By the way, the Sun's messageboards do not seem to allow a dedicated thread on the subject. As predicted by other posters, one was removed at some point before or after the sudden, extended shutdown of the site, which opened again today.
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"reminds me of the Andrew Sachs affair, which was equally despicable. "
Ridiculous nonsense.
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The NOTW story seems petty against the backdrop of the dreadful news from Afghanistan today.
Petty politicians scoring petty points off each other to promote their own interests.
We desperately need to re-evaluate our mission to Afghanistan to ensure that our troops are not being sent on a fools errand. We know that the armed forces will suffer casualties but there needs to be a strategic review to establish whether we have the wherewithal to achieve what is being asked of us and tailor our efforts to suit our resources.
It borders on criminal neglect to subject our troops to this with such inadequate resource. I hope Ainsworth and Brown can sleep at night.
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I saw an 'I'm a nobody - watch me on TV' serial non-celebrity celebrity participant at dinner time saying that they would be contactng a lawyer. I presume to complain that they hadn't had a full page spread out of it.
They actually said that they had been wondering how photographers managed to turn up at events they were attending. Perhaps if they really had known they'd have avoided them.
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Andrew,
no good morning today I'm afraid with the news from Afghanistan and the Miliband interview on the Today programme. Even Humphries does not understand something. One minute he is inetrviewing Miliband, almost the next minute he is reviewing the papers and laughing about 'Pies in Stockton'. I am not going to say that we should not be humourous but the Editors must understand the anger which is building-up with regard to the media.
Exactly how many of the people who flew planes into the World Trade Center came from Afghanistan. How many boarded planes in Afghanistan and took over the planes and flew them into the Towers on 9/11. The answer I think is none, the people who flew planes into the World Trade Center were from Saudi Arabia, but they left the kingdom and planned and perpetrated their atrocities in America. They lived in America for quite a long time, planning and plotting.
The problem was not with Afghanistan, it was with Saudi Arabia, that is the problem, we have attacked the wrong place. Only we could not possibly act against Saudi because of the oil.
So we went in Afghanistan with the Americans to 'get' bin Laden, only we still haven't got him. We got Sadam alright, he was captured and executed. But unlike what many of the American soldiers thought he had absolutely nothing at all to do with WMDs and nothing at all to do with the attack on the WTC. You look at the living accomodation for the American soldiers when they first went in to Iraq, the pictures of the burning WTC on the walls of the occupied palaces. So we thought we could forget Afghanistan and deal with Iraq, which was still not Saudi Arabia.
So, having gone into Iraq we started to round people up, detain them, arrest them, use enhanced interrogation techniques, use extra-ordinary rendition, allow sectarian civil war to break out, not defend the local population from attack, allow corruption, send prisoners to Cuba, maltreat people, insult them, beat them with sticks, beat them up and kill them, basically act just like illegal occpiers, after an illegal war, in a war based on lies.
Now we are in Afghanistan again. Only we can't arrest people, we can't interrogate them, we can't 'do' anything, we just sit there. So, we have to attack, we just kill, using drones, helicopters, high explosives, all of our superior technology. Only we have lost, we can't talk to the locals, they won't hand over the Taliban, we take no prisoners, we lose men, for what!
The trouble is the British got into a fight with the Taliban, or freedom fighters from a local perspective, and they would call up an air strike and innocent women and children were killed, usually by the Americans, because where is the British Air Force. Oh, that's right they have no equipment, they are nothing! Why? because you look at the case of the air force officer Fl Lt Kendall-Smith who was prosecuted and convicted for refusing orders in Iraq, the illegal war, the WMDs, and he was sent to prison, for six months, and dishonourably discharged. You ask soldiers why they did not call up British air strikes, because the British pilots, I think, would not bomb houses where there were possibly innocent women and children. Why do you think we are investing so heavily in Drones, flown with joy sticks from the deserts of America.
As for prisoners by the British, too much of a problem, we can't do anything with them, what with the case of Col Mendonca, who was left out to dry by his superior officers, by the people who gave the orders.
So, we are now mired in Afghanistan. It is a war we can never win, Brown will have to announce, in parliament, in a broadcast to the nation what is the point. What is the purpose. None of this is about Afghanistan being an incubator for terror, I have had enough lies, and half truths. There is no longer any point, it is not Vietnam, it is the killing fields of Passchaendale in WWI. During WWI, when it started the dead soldiers were brought home for burial. Then they realised we can't do this, we can't have a hundred burials a day, a thousand burials a day, ten thousand burials a day, so bury them where they died, if we keep bringing them home the people will rebel, they will revolt, bury them where they die. It is not only the dead, it is the injured, both physically and mentally. This is not acceptable, it is time to bring the soldiers home. We admitted our defeat in Iraq, eventually after much loss of life, and the loss of any moral authority, and we have no moral authority in Afghanistan. It is just killing for the sake of it, no point, no purpose, we again have become the problem and never the solution.
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Andrew,
whilst the Prime Minister is on holiday with the rest of the MPs how is he going to read out the names of the dead in Afghanistan. Everywednesday at PMQs he reads out the names, what is he going to do whilst meeting the likes of Colonel Gaddafi.
I'll tell you what I want to see and hear. I want Brown to announce a formal statement to the nation, not on Youtube but all the national TV and radio stations. At a given time, say just before the ten o'clock news. In this broadcast he can tell us what he is going to do about Afghanistan, how we got into this mess, but how we are to get out of it.
But I do not want him alone, I want the leaders of the two other major political parties to be included, this is about our nation, our young men fighting in our name, so get the politics out of it. They must all sign up to this, if they don't then they must explain why not. There must be no division, this is all or nothing. If they don't do this then they might as well come out now, admit our errors, hold an inquiry, but get us out of this hell hole. We know what happened to the USSR because of Afghanistan, don't ever think that this could not happen here. It is Harry 'we do bad things to bad people', only the Afghanistan people are not bad people, when will the powers that be realise that 'we are the bad peope'.
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geronimojones, TAG and various
Re Afghanistan
Read this article by Matthew Parris in the Times about tribalism, and you very quickly realise that only the elctions are a sham but that the war is completely pointless.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/matthew_parris/article6684516.ece
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69 Daidigital
"Ridiculous Nonsense"
"Looking up at the stars, I know quite well,
That, for all they care I can go to hell,
But on earth indifference is the least
We have to dread from man or beast"
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#74
I have not read the Parris article yet and before I do let me say this. The elections in August in Afghanistan will be an absolute sham. Let us say that there is a war lord, who can give 50,000 votes to Karzai. Now Karzai will be told in order for you to get my votes this is a law I want you to pass, say with regard to women and their treatment. Now if you don't pass this law then you will not get my 50,000 votes. The same with all the war lords.
Now if we were serious then the British and Americans, who know who these war lords are, would take them out, with drones, bombing raids, or special forces. Only they won't. We can't win. The soldiers will do as they are told. They know about the corruption, the lack of political leadership.They just get on with it. After all, under this failed labour government they could alsways be stacking shelves in a supermarket. These are brave young men who are being exploited, and we tolerate it. Give them a parade when they come home. Give them some money to go to the pub and talk army with retired soldiers and their buddies. Give the families some compensation, let the flags fly, the bugles sound, the memorial services, get the vicar to hold a service, all the trappings, but at the end of day nobody is actually doing anything. It is Verdun, we can kill more of them them than they can kill of us, bleed them dry, put them in the mincer. Trouble is Andrew, they can take the losses, eventually we won't. You see they have more young men willing to die for their country than we do. We are in a trap of our own making, Brwon, come on the media and tell the truth, a formal statement to the country.
Miliband let slip that the Afghans we are fighting are terrorists, only as Humphries pointed out they are not. They are freedom fighters, they have a cause, we don't. We've lost no matter what the experts in the army says.
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Afghan and Iraq has nothing to do with Terrorists,it is ALL about the Liquid Gold and I don't mean Guiness.
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Good morning each & Andrew.
Afghanistan.
Have these people ever known 'peace'?
It seems to me that we must offer them a market for their Opium, pay a realistic amount for the crop and pay real money to local collectives.
The villiage elders can then spend that money for rebuilding and new building of schools etc.
And give them a view of the world that is not seen from along the barrel of a gun.
For centuries the advantages of peace have been paid for by tribute to one war-lord or another, our presence only encourages more of the same. It is we who now demand the tribute.
All action is met by reaction each side is seen as savior while that side is present in their community, but only while present.
The only way to form a government for the whole country is to form 'cantons'. And have the leaders of these cantons form a national government. We and their neighbours should offer to help them in any way they see fit and leave them be if that is what they choose.
"insistance is useless".
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I note that the government is getting understandably nervous about losing public support for its debacle in Afghanistan. They say that the purpose is to impose good governance on a country to whom governmental rule ia an anaethema, with the intention that doing so will cause it to become less of a centre for terrorist activity.
Unfortunately the current government there is no less corrupt than any other that has attempted to rule and is likely to be strung up from nearest lamp posts if we should ever leave. Without tribal support and involvement in the drug trade it can never exert any control and it then becomes part of the problem.
Quite how this government believes it can solve a problem in the desert wastes of Afghanistan that is proposes affects us here in the leafy suburbs of the UK I don't know. I haven't seen any Taliban fighters prowling the streets recently and if we weren't fighting in Afghanistan I imagine they wouldn't have much of a reason to disturb us. If we concentrated on defending our borders it might make more sense as we don't have the same problems in Islington we face in Afghanistan.
It amazes me that a Socialist government has such a colonial idea that foreign governments should conform to their imperial view, which is quite a hoot considering how corrupt our own government is. Undoubtedly Mr Karzai loves the idea of being made boss of all he beholds but it just doesn't fit in with Afghan culture.
The problem is not that Afghanist needs a right on 'Nu Labour' form of government, it's that our government cannot properly protect or control its citizens and visitors in the UK. For some reason a Taliban in Afghanistan merits a burst of cannon fire, but acquires Human Rights when he claims asylum at our borders. Twisting itself in a Human Rights knot in the UK is causing our army to attempt to enforce UK law in a place where it is acceptable to leave dead bodies in the street.
If the nationals of a particular country pose a threat to the UK, place an embargo on them or strictly control visitors. Before I'm accused of being a BNP supporter, I would ask if that's less racist than sending our imperial forces out to impose law and order, by gun and bullet, on a people who think everything's just fine.
I would point out that all this fighting is going on in a tiny sliver of the country, which dosn't bode well to us ever managing to hand over a functioning country to the puppet government.
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Afghanistan:
Some costs to ponder as the body count grows and the lack of air support becomes news again.
Cost to upgrade the MoD Headquarters:
Independent Jan 2003
The PFI scheme to refurbish the Ministry of Defence's headquarters is costing almost £100m more than originally budgeted because it took civil servants 16 months to close the deal.
A damning report into the Whitehall project published today by the Commons Public Accounts Committee also reveals that the deal, signed four years ago with a consortium including the beleaguered contractor Amey, is only expected to produce savings of £100,000 over its 30-year life.
When the Modus consortium was selected as preferred bidder in January 1999 the cost of the refurbishment was put at £647m and the MoD expected to save £25m compared with the cost of undertaking the refurbishment as a conventional public sector contract.
By the time the deal closed in May 2000 the cost had mushroomed to £746m, mainly because the financial markets had "seen the MoD coming" and pushed up the debt financing costs by £60m.
Times Jan 2007
THE Ministry of Defences new Whitehall headquarters will cost the taxpayer £2.3 billion to refurbish and run, according to official figures.
The 3,100 civil servants have luxury office chairs, worth more than £1,000 each, three large plasma screens on each of the 10 floors, a gym, restaurant, coffee bars and 'quiet rooms' for relaxation.
Luxurious fixtures and fittings include 3,120 European oak doors bought from Swift Horsman, a specialist supplier, while a further 380 original oak doors were restored at a cost of £1,200 each.
***
The Chinook debacle
The Public Accounts Committee 2009
In 2007, under mounting pressure to provide additional helicopter lift to Afghanistan, the Department scrapped the Fix to Field project in favour of a new project called Reversion, designed to accelerate the helicopters entry into operational service. In assessing the Reversion project, however, the Department FAILED TO CONSULT with Boeing, the manufacturer of the helicopters, with regard to the potential costs or timeframes, and the estimated cost of the project subsequently grew by 70 per cent.
The cost of the eight Chinook Mk3 helicopters once they enter service will be in excess of £422 million, or £52.5 million each. Alternatives that may have been available at the time the original order was placed may have been cheaper than the final costs of these Chinooks.
***
Estimated cost of training a soldier for combat: £15k and upwards
Basic equipment £1,5k and upwards plus weaponry
(Compare that to the MoD's luxury office chairs at ±£1k each!!)
When I watch Bob Ainsworth ramble on about the mission and what a great job our troops are doing I have this vision of him in the middle of a contact, soiling his pants. Never mind Ros Kemp swanning around playing soldiers, every new Minister of Defence should be 'embedded' with troops for a short period and made to live under the same conditions.
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TAG
Even the American press is thinking that insufficient US troops are present in Afghanistan. The four US servicemen killed on Monday were in the so called peaceful north of the country, and Afghanistan is larger than Iraq so Obama's troop surge is now seen as insadequate.
Btw your first paragraph suggested you had read Matthew Parriss's article already! President Medvedev's comment on how the coalition was doing with respect to the Taliban was telling: "insignificant progress".
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
78. 79.
There is still this arrogance and presumption that we can 'sort out' a culture totally removed from and different to ours. The irony.. that a so-called 'socialist' government is still pursuing these old imperialist ways. It's now more about this government's infatuation with our 'special relationship' with the US, hanging on to their coat tails. I'm not a supporter of the Lisbon Treaty and the EU in its current form but it makes more sense for our military focus to be with NATO than rely on the US. Have full intelligence co-operation but not a 'no questions asked' military commitment.
As I've said in a previous blog, and I agree with Oudeis, Afghanistan did not develop naturally into its present boundaries, it was created as a buffer between colonial powers. The melange of tribes and religious factions will never be controlled by a central government. A complete rethink of its political and geographical map needs to be considered.
The problem now is that because of the levels of commitment and spend a sudden change of heart is very unlikely. After all we have drones and the latest high tech weaponry. How can we lose? We even have Royalty calling in air strikes. (What a dumb PR stunt - Harry wearing an American slogan, "We do bad things to bad people" Another demonstration of our arrogance.)
Generals may respect the Taliban's resolve and bravery, but in their psyche there is a 'we can't lose to this rabble' mentality.
As for the logic of installing a western-friendly democracy so Al-qaeda have nowhere to operate from.. pure fantasy. There are so many other countries in the Middle-East and Africa from which they can operate. Will we have to invade all of them to ensure our safety?
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Regarding lack of air support, am I right in thinking that when aircraft are written off through crashes or were shot down the MoD does not instantly replace them? The unctuous Ainsworth was on the news last night saying defence spending had risen each year since 1997, but if planes are not replaced the armed forces resource stretch becomes even worse.
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#81
sorry if I gave that impression, in fact I have not read the Parris article. I like to think that I can come up with my own thoughts and ideas. I think you will find that this blog by Andrew Neil has more influence than many give it credit for. Any deep analysis will show that the politicians read these comments and are very cognisant of it's contents. There is no point in our continued presence in what is not a country but a bit of space given the name Afghanistan.
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I recall that one journalist embedded with the UK troops recounted that he had only seen two families in a week with them, and that those had hot footed it off in to the hills as the troops were only going to attract 'incoming'.
So - the net result of flooding the area with troops to enable free and fair elections to take place - no one left to vote.
Unless those troops, and possibly more, stay there indefinitely it will all have been a waste of time. We'll be repeating the Vietnam process of taking hills at great cost only to hand them back immediately.
The power of the Taliban won't be broken just because an election was held. Given half a chance they can soon make any locals regret having taken part if we don't commit a large force to a permanent and exposed presence in many small outposts, and the Taliban will look forward to that. Even in the large posts, control only projects to the perimeter fence where the Taliban will leave IAD's given half a chance.
Shooting Johnny Foreigner in the Helmand doesn't make Tooting a safer place - trust me. Labour have out BNP'd the BNP on that policy.
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Back to the original article, heard yesterday that BBC were headlining Coulsdon as a member of Cameron's team. Misquoting PM (that not Gordon),'A classic labour smear?'.
Back to the main thread now of Afghanistan. I now suspect that what we are seeing is a similar situation to the Crimea War, where the Government mismanaged that war with the poor logistics and support. The Afghans should be allowed to go back to their natural states of various warlords battling over the next valley rather than a common outside enemy. If Alexander the Great could only achieve a stalemate in this region, I would suggest a re-think.
I just heard on the Week in Westminster that that there will be review, but not before the election. So how I can not see this Labour Government wanting to increase Defence spending at this current time.
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Andrew,
this is what the internet is about, your blog. The moderators on your blog have, I think, realised that your commentators have not been infiltrated by the politcos, I read the contributions and this is where the power now lies. Actually not power, but more importantly influence.
For example consider this. After 9/11 Afghanistan was bombed and occupied. We then took our eye off the ball and went into Iraq. Iran is still an issue. Afghanistan is still an issue. Pakistan is now an issue. So, we sort out Afghanistan again. Then what, Pakistan, we are already funding the civil war now taking place with the army being paid for by British and American aid. Next Iraq again, because that has gone wrong after we left, then Iran, oh and by way now Jordan is flooded with unwanted refugees from Iraq, so we then have to sort that out. Then what about Saudi Arabia, that is where the problem now is, so let's sort that out, Israel won't have a nuclear state on its borders so, Iran, that now needs sorting out.
People ought to look at their history, the War of Jenkins Ear, the Seven Years war, the Hundred Years War, the persecution and occpation of America after the Native American Genocide, war would seem to be in mans genes. as soon as we admit that then we might just make some progress. Whatever did become of the United Nations. I know the refarin, 'what did you do in the war Daddy?' What a wonderful world! Oh forgot to mention Palestine and the Gaza strip, and Egypt...
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TAG
It is a compliment to your original writing that your thoughts mirrored the Times's article.
Like you I cannot see the point in this war. Here is a scenario that will happen. Coalition essentially regains control of the country and Taliban retreat into Pakistan quietly. How long do the Coalition troops stay? A couple of years and then start bringing them home. Taliban move back in quietly and take over - this is deja vu. After all it happened after 2001.
The other thing is that in their culture a jihad does not fit in with our concept of time, the here and now. Winning now or in a few years matters not as in the end it is Allahs will that they will win. With all our mighty air power etc. you cannot defeat that mindset.
As you say Afghanistan is an European invention - drawing lines on a map. Pakistan is in the same situation, as the first 3 letters denote the tribes: pashtun, afghan and kashmir.
I hope you are correct in that people who matter do read this blog. I am heartened by the newspaper coverage today as they are asking the right and searching questions, as opposed to toadying up to the government.
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87. SurreyABC
"I just heard on the Week in Westminster that that there will be review, but not before the election."
=
It's looking like everything is being put on hold until after the election.
That's what the government's finest minds and energy will be focused on.
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So...
When the front line is here with us all involved as electors at the next election. What then?
Can anybody who demands new-thinking elsewhere in this world really continue to plump for the same old Tory/NuL duality?
Can there be any hope for 'change' with the same old people at the helm?
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Let's be both brutal and serious.
Projecting foreign policy by military means is a bloody business, and trying to do it with kid gloves is hopeless. We've managed to persuade Pakistan to do it for us in the Tribal Area, where we aren't asking too many questions about their methods and means, just supplying the ordinance, and letting them get on with it. Clearly we feel Pakistanis killing locals is morally okay.
Death is okay as long you're killed by a related racial group ? It's ridiculous to claim that a problem in the UK cannot be solved more easily in the UK and requires bloodshed abroad. If a country is deemed to be a pariah or hotbed of extreme terrorism, isolate and embargo it. Blockade it if necessary. If the laws of the UK are insufficient, then change them. Blowing Afghanistan to pieces is making matters worse.
If we really cared about the need for democratically elected governments we'd be fighting in a lot more ountries - North Korea, Burma, Iran, Tibet, to name but a few.
Afghanistan is a backwater of little significance compared with Iran, where a nuclear-armed set of fundamentalist mullahs will destabilise an area of much greater significance to the west.
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Andrew Neil seems to be relishing this issue appearingon news programmes and covering the matter in depth on the Daily Politics and This Week. Today's Telegraph gives a more objective assessment http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/mediatechnologyandtelecoms/media/5797090/Phone-tapping-row-analysis-of-The-Guardians-claims.html. Is Andrew's interest anything to do with his own run-in with Rupert Murdoch at Sky and subsequent departure? Also why does Andrew Neil not ever declare, when interviewing politicians such as Michael Howard and William Hague, that he is the Chairman of PFD agency and they are his clients?
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There is growing questioning of why we are fighting in Afghanistan, and growing support for a plan for withdrawal. These views are understandable in the light of the loss of life we are observing and the vagueness of the ultimate objectives. There are also many comments about the fragmented nature of Afghanistan, its tribalism, and its irrelevance to us in the west.
However, in spite of its tribes and warlords, 90% of Afghanistan was ruled by the Taleban immediately prior to 2001. These fundamental extremists oppressed women and supported global terrorism against the west - amongst other things. They are next door to Pakistan, which is on the verge of instability and has nuclear capability. Left to itself, it seems virtually certain that the Taleban would re-assert its rule and its support for terrorism - and what would happen with Pakistan, in that situation, is unclear but not reassuring.
There are already 'rogue states', such as North Korea and Iran, that are giving cause for concern about destabilisation of their regions. Add in Afghanistan under the Taleban, and a rocky Pakistan with nuclear weapons, and the world begins to look decidedly unsafe, especially as there are other countries in these areas that could easily become more problematic.
Maybe it would be better for the UK to withdraw into a defensive shell, and determine to stay out of any military actions arising - for example involving Israel or India. Perhaps we can leave any action to the USA and its other allies, or maybe they will also adopt isolationism.
But when everything is considered, a simple, safe course of action is not that straightforward. In the end, we could be forced into a much greater conflict than the current one in Afghanistan.
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excellentcatblogger
I dont think it is right to say the Taliban retreat quietly into Pakistan. They are already there, and they can move seamlessly between the two countries. If they appear to abandon Afghanistan for the moment (knowing that if we leave they can come back in without any effort and take over again) it will be because the real prize is Pakistan, where there are are masses of nuclear weapons. Which is what bin Laden is after if his whole concept of blowing up the West is to come to fruition.
We cant go into Pakistan after the Taliban unless invited in, and the chances of that are virtually nil. We are probably in this for at least the next twenty years, and while I suspect we will leave with our tails between our legs as the USSR did I also think that Brown and Obama and their Generals think the only strategy is to take out as many Taliban as we can while thy are there in front of us. Sadly, that means very large loss of life on both sides.
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No problem in fighting a life or death war of survival.
The problem is that we're trying to effect a cultural and political re-education by military force without harming the population, and failing on all counts.
It is a modern concept that sending in your army should be an act of fraternal friendship and greetings.
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95. At 4:11pm on 11 Jul 2009, majorroadaheadagain wrote:
excellentcatblogger
I dont think it is right to say the Taliban retreat quietly into Pakistan. They are already there, and they can move seamlessly between the two countries. If they appear to abandon Afghanistan for the moment (knowing that if we leave they can come back in without any effort and take over again) it will be because the real prize is Pakistan, where there are are masses of nuclear weapons. Which is what bin Laden is after if his whole concept of blowing up the West is to come to fruition.
We cant go into Pakistan after the Taliban unless invited in, and the chances of that are virtually nil. We are probably in this for at least the next twenty years, and while I suspect we will leave with our tails between our legs as the USSR did I also think that Brown and Obama and their Generals think the only strategy is to take out as many Taliban as we can while thy are there in front of us. Sadly, that means very large loss of life on both sides.
===========================
The extent to which the Taliban will work with Al Quaeda is unknown. Even the composition of the Taliban varies over time as tribal loyalties are very volatile - today's coalition supporter is tomorrow's Taliban fighter. Bin Laden is useful to them now for troops training, getting the right equipment and at the start money - originally the Taliban did not approve of the heroin trade but needs must and all that.
Although both are devout Muslims, the Afghans and Persians do look with disdain upon the Arabs - a common refrain refers the Arabs as eaters of camel excrement. The Pakistan situation is a worry and i share your concern, but the remote drones are already bombing Pakistan and they are not too picky target wise.
Your thought about taking out as many Taliban as we can makes sense if the Taliban was restricted to just the Afghan and pashtun populations. I am afraid that some of the Taliban groups are a bit like the French Foreign Legion. The recession may also provide more human fodder, in that Muslim youngsters in Europe may well think, why not?
We want to foist a democratic constitution on a people who in the rural areas are ruled under a feudal fiefdom by the local drug/war Lords. These local leaders have absolute say in who marries who, settle disputes etc. I gained a better insight into all this by reading "Three Cups of Tea" written by Greg Mortensen, who started a charity providing girls schools in remote villages in North West Pakistan/North east Afghanistan. The US govt recognised this, and the Pentagon bought 3,000 copies and made it compulsory reading. I suspect Whitehall's attitude has changed little since our last foray into the Khyber Pass over 100 years ago.
Should we be imposing our way of life on a people whether they like it or not? In the rural areas they have little and it is a struggle to survive, but most seem quite happy with their lot.
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excellent cat blogger
Thank you for you insight, which is much deeper than anything I could muster. I will look out for the Mortensen book.
In your last para you ask whether we should be imposing a way of life on a people whether they like it or not? My thought on that would be that, with Afghanistan as with Iraq, I doubt people sat down and saw it in that light when they went in. Both were heavily influenced by George W Bush and his response to the threat of terrorism and then 9/11. I wonder if the same thing would have happened had Al Gore prevailed with the hanging chads and had been president in 2000 instead of Bush? In the end the outcome of that election to all of us was so terrible that I am sure Bush now wishes (like me) that he had lost.
Sadly, we have a terrible track record at imposing a way of life on a people, which inevitably ended in us getting a bloody nose. The Americans were late to the party, but have caught up with a vengeance. Sadly, I doubt Afghanistan will show that we have learned much from our experiences. Thanks again.
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It's not as if we haven't been through all this before. Twice with the Afghans and innumerable times with Boers and various other people who treated shooting British soldiers as a part time occupation and managed to run farms at the same time.
The Afghans are far from stupid and if anyone cares to check the arms taking aid and the ones holding a gun, they'll probably be found attached to the same body. We lost a whole army there on one occassion because we though they played fair, which is rather naive if you go trampling over someone else's country with an invading army.
We haven't reached the stage where they get a UK prisoner yet, but that'll be a priority in the Taliban books. If someone judges there to be a good reason to be undertaking this war then they should use planes and drones and teach them a continual lesson (allied with the perpetual destruction of their opium crops). but I can't think for the life of me what lesson they are meant to be learning.
Pakistan are taking care of the slaughter for us on their side of the border.
Which tribal leader gets kudos in Afghan society ? The one who sits down and has tea with the general or the one who blows up an army vehicle.
Drones are something that weren't available to our predecessors, though after cctv I worry that they'll be their next bright idea for the skies in the UK. They'll be responsible for increased collateral damage, but the government need to find a way to pursue a war that doesn't make our soldiers fodder for the opposition. It's ridiculous to pretend you're making friends with people by use of ammunition.
Pussy footing around is pointless and the Taliban must feel they are close to victory. Get serious or get out.
"More than 90 percent of the worlds opium comes out of Afghanistan, where poppy crops blanket the provinces of Helmand, Kandahar and Zabul."
I know the arguments for allowing the cultivation but, who controls the opium controls the farmers and the Taliban. We must either destroy it or control it, otherwise we might as well finance the Taliban ourselves.
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Mr Miliband identified victory with producing a situation in which "Afghan forces can defend their own country".
Janes appear to have a pessimistic view
"Creating an armed forces from nothing is a lengthy and complex process. Planning in Afghanistan has been haphazard, uncoordinated and complicated by corruption and well-meaning but inchoate foreign assistance. The Ministry of Defence remains near non-functional as regards budgeting, long-term planning, establishment of doctrine, structured acquisition of equipment, or any other facet of force development.The ANA currently has around 68,000 troops and it is possible that it may reach 86,000 - its original mandated strength - in 2009. However, the US Government Accountability Office assessed in mid-2008 that only one battalion out of 49 was fully capable of conducting operations on its own, as was only one of the five Corps HQ"
Apparently Afghan weapons procurement was in the hands of a company with a 22 year old former masseuse as Vice President who supplied ancient and unreliable stock purchased from countries such as Albania.
Hunker down for a long war then.
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I hate to point this out but Mr Milliband is actually wrong in his identification of the task Afghan forces will are intended to perform - which is more than a little worrying.
Afghanistan isn't actually under attack, unless Mr Milliband is referring to NATO forces. Their intended role will be internal security and defending the government installed by NATO from the internal threat posed by the Taliban and tribal leaders not allied with the government.
Silly boy.
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Andrew,
it would seem that history is being rewritten if I may quote from Obama in his latest initiative for the continued occupation of Afghanistan:
'those who with impunity blow up train stations in London or buildings in New York'.
it would appear that no action can be taken against these bombers. With that I would agree because all the bombers are in fact dead, they act with impunity because they are like the Japanese Kamikazi pilots of WWII, they die. As for the organiser of these attacks, it would appear that bin Laden cannot be captured, no matter how much money is on his head, nobody will be the Judas, for their bits of silver.
Brown and Obama are now stuck in a jam, they are now justifying their actions to keep terror off the streets of America, but more importantly London. So, if a bomb goes off in London will that be because of some poor Afghan farmer, or will it be as a result of a disaffected Saudi, who goes by the name of bin Laden.
As soon as the politicians admit that there is no Afghanistan, that it is not a state, not one as could be defined anyway. If anything then think of it as a Federal State, made up of various tribes, or war lords. Just like Britain before the wars of occupation by England, of Wales, Scotland and Ireland. Yes, this goes back an awful long time.
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Good Morning Andrew,
it is now becoming more apparent why the British and Americans want to focus on Afghanistan. The problems of the Bush Administration and its Extra-Ordinary Rendition and Enhanced Interrogation Techniques will not go away. Little publicity has been given to the statement in the Commons by David Davis but look at what is happening with regard with the new Attorney General in the States.
Let me hypothysise if I may. Trouble at mill with these investigations, lets attack in Afghanistan, we had to do what we did in Iraq because well, these guys are terrorists, and foreign, so lets torture them or send them to Cuba, or to a former Eastern block country where they know how to deal with these people. Oh dear, people are asking questions about what we did, well let's attack again in Afghanistan, you know get some of our soldiers killed so that we can shed some crocodile tears and get at those bleeding hearts who think that we are wrong, a few burials, you know flights filmed for TV, a few speeches, sad loss, deep regrets, bit of compensation, hard fighting that sort of stuff, hey the soldiers would only be stacking shelves, they really ought to be grateful to us for taking them to a great place, lots of sun, bit of dust and the odd roadside bomb, but they would only be holidaying in Ibiza.
No, read the press in America:
Independents Day
Obama doesn't want to look back, but Attorney General Eric Holder may probe Bush-era torture anyway.
By Daniel Klaidman | NEWSWEEK
Published Jul 11, 2009
It's the morning after Independence Day, and Eric Holder Jr. is feeling the weight of history. The night before, he'd stood on the roof of the White House alongside the president of the United States, leaning over a railing to watch fireworks burst over the Mall, the monuments to Lincoln and Washington aglow at either end. "I was so struck by the fact that for the first time in history an African-American was presiding over this celebration of what our nation is all about," he says. Now, sitting at his kitchen table in jeans and a gray polo shirt, as his 11-year-old son, Buddy, dashes in and out of the room, Holder is reflecting on his own role. He doesn't dwell on the fact that he's the country's first black attorney general. He is focused instead on the tension that the best of his predecessors have confronted: how does one faithfully serve both the law and the president?
Alone among cabinet officers, attorneys general are partisan appointees expected to rise above partisanship. All struggle to find a happy medium between loyalty and independence. Few succeed. At one extreme looms Alberto Gonzales, who allowed the Justice Department to be run like Tammany Hall. At the other is Janet Reno, whose righteousness and folksy eccentricities marginalized her within the Clinton administration. Lean too far one way and you corrupt the office, too far the other way and you render yourself impotent. Mindful of history, Holder is trying to get the balance right. "You have the responsibility of enforcing the nation's laws, and you have to be seen as neutral, detached, and nonpartisan in that effort," Holder says. "But the reality of being A.G. is that I'm also part of the president's team. I want the president to succeed; I campaigned for him. I share his world view and values."
These are not just the philosophical musings of a new attorney general. Holder, 58, may be on the verge of asserting his independence in a profound way. Four knowledgeable sources tell NEWSWEEK that he is now leaning toward appointing a prosecutor to investigate the Bush administration's brutal interrogation practices, something the president has been reluctant to do. While no final decision has been made, an announcement could come in a matter of weeks, say these sources, who decline to be identified discussing a sensitive law-enforcement matter. Such a decision would roil the country, would likely plunge Washington into a new round of partisan warfare, and could even imperil Obama's domestic priorities, including health care and energy reform. Holder knows all this, and he has been wrestling with the question for months. "I hope that whatever decision I make would not have a negative impact on the president's agenda," he says. "But that can't be a part of my decision
There is just so much Andrew that we don't get to hear about. Bush, Blair, and Brown should be indicted because of what I think they have done and are doing. And if Obama is not very careful he will be going down with them.
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I've just listened to the Defence Secretary talking about the Taliban as if they are a coherent organised entity - they're not.
Look at the situation as if you're fighting Nationalists living in Catholic areas of Northern Ireland. Announcing to the locals that you're there to wipe out the Taliban sounds much like you're there to wipe the whole community. Even if the locals aren't active Taliban fighters, they are likely to be sympathisers and feel more allegiance to them than an invading army.
As I've already mentioned, David Miliband has the wrong idea of what the NATO forces are doing in Afghanistan. He's talking about enabling Afghanistan to defend itself, which is patently ridiculous. It's an internal security issue, and he doesn't mention the possibility of the situation if the Afghans vote a Taliban government into office.
The Taliban aren't an alien force, unlike NATO, and has a closer affinity to their customs, beliefs and morals than a foreign army trying to impose a corrupt western style democracy on them. If we can't create a national government, able to impose its will on the country, we've wasted our time, and the prospects aren't good. Of course it will always be seen as a Western puppet government that will have to compromise with the Taliban to remain in power unless the West is prepared to support it indefinitely.
We can't control what happens within the borders of every foreign country and attempting to do so is to adopt a neo-colonial role that I thought Labour found repulsive. If we control what happens within our own borders we don't have to do this, and what is being done in Afghanistan is only exacerbating the problems we are likely to face in the UK.
The actual aim is to impose a Western style democracy on Afghanistan that will be amenable to Western demands and have the ability to impose its will on the whole country. What are the chances of that then ?
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Three letters sent from front line troops in Helmand province:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/12/afghanistan-taliban-troops-helmand-letters
I do not know if they are representative of what is going on out there, but shambolic seems to sum it up and none of the soldiers seem to know why they are in Afghanistan.
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Good morning each & Andrew.
Afghanistan is clearly not a soldiers war. The reference to WWI was not a plea for a return to trench warfare, I hope.
An official market for the opium and one Geo-Stat satelite would do the job far better.
Oh! Silly me. I have forgotten the Pipe-line.
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Good Morning Andrew,
so now we are being told that we are in Afghanistan so that the Afghan government can run the country, so that the Afghan police and army can defend their country etc...so this sounds a bit to me like when the Germans allowed Vichy France to be a government during the German occupation.
What I want to know is that so far we are told there are tens of thousands trained Afghan police and soldiers and that we are training some more. So how many of the Afghan army have fought with the British and Americans in this latest offensive, how many of these well trained well armed soldiers have fought and died. A list please, how many, surely records are being kept.
Why no prisoners being taken, why no trials of those accused of being terrorists. I have just heard the obnoxious comment by Brown that this is now a patriotic duty to keep the terrorists off our streets, I mean has it really come to this 'a patriotic duty'. Look at the equipment that we saw the Iraq army parade after our ignominous retreat, they have better equipment than our boys have. It is not about helicopters, it is not even about soldiers in Afghanistan any more. Ask yourself apparently we have about 8,000 soldiers in Afghanistan, how many of these military personnel are actually what we could call 'front line troops', not many I bet. Do you think we have this number of soldiers fighting the Taliban, please get real.
I can't believe Brown any more, he is to me a fraud, with his deep sensorous voice telling us about deep regret, sad loss, all the platitudes. He makes me so angry. Exactly when did Brown get elected as Prime Minister, just how democratic is our society, not at all corrupt of course are we, no vote rigging, no MPs on the gravy train, no journalists illegally tapping phones, no 'we do bad things to bad people'. I could go on but you get my drift, hey let's just all shut-up and let the bankers with their massive bonuses run the country, now that surely won't happen.
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#105 excellent cat blogger
Those letters are so depressing - the soldiers clearly have no faith in their mission or command.
I heard some army chap trot out the line about - we are here to keep terrorists off the street of Britain - just how is sacrificing our troops going to stop some radical from Bradford or wherever planning another attack if they wanted to?
I had previously believed there was some merit in our mission but I am starting to doubt that.
Just who is in charge and deciding policy?
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The issues ref inadequate weapons/ equpiment/resources has been the topic of this blog and national news since the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq started.It is a simple solution to resolve because we have two parties telling different stories. First,we have the PM, Mod Defence Minister etc all purporting that the necessary and adequate resources ARE available and we have the guys on the ground SCREAMING for more gear and PROPER weapons etc.
It's simple to resolve, one of the parties are lying thru the teeth and I would bet my life it'aint the boys and girls on the ground.
Hang you heads in shame Blair, Brown,Milliband,Wainwright, Hoon,MOD and the other lying Politicians .
They not only should be tried for illegal wars ,they should be tried for culpable homicide of our dear boys lost in this SHAM aka as a WAR.
Why don't we start putting these politicains thru LIE DETECTOR Tests, oh,yes please.
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Clearly the solution to the Afghanistan problem is for our Government to impose a Nu Labour regime, a mirror image of itself, riven with corruption, but it must be done in an eco-friendly manner without hurting anyone at the point of a gun.
At the behest of the West the Pakistan government took a more robust stance, and anyone notice their use of artillery ? A highly indiscriminate form of ordinance delivery that achieves area clearance more than destruction of the enemy, but that's what armies do. It's highly effective but very messy, though it does avoid you having to shake hands with the enemy and getting your head blown off.
In Afghanistan I'd get local commanders to have a talk with the local tribal chief and tell him that 25% of his poppy fields will be torched if any IED's go off or attacks on NATO forces occur in his area. As tribal chief, he knows everything going on in his area and has it under his control. If he didn't get the message, a second offence means he loses 50%. The benefit is that you're talking a language Afghans understand, you don't look weak and pathetic, you aren't killing people and even if it doesn't work you are dealing with the opium trade and depriving the Taliban of finance.
I can't help feeling that government in Afghanistan, the opium trade and the Taliban are so inextricably interwoven, that you can't have any one of them without the others. The government we want in place wants the opium trade to continue and that finances the Taliban.
Our government are being played for fools.
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"It's the economy stupid."
Or so it would seem from what I have just heard on BBC1, the Afghan economy that is.
I wonder what we could be selling them?
We have 'given' them an army/police force so...training/arms/spare parts etc.
I do recall a friend used to get a cheque from BT to house their pole in his garden each year.
They do have a long established export business. Perhaps we require our cut?
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...Ah! The penny has dropped.
We need them to need us.
We just need to feel 'loved'.
It's all about therapy. We go from being the rapist to the therapist.
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110 Geronimo
"Our government are being played for fools"
Yes but by whom - Uncle Sam or the rest of Europe who won't risk their troops?
Although if the aim as stated yesterday was to "keep terrorists off the streets of Britain" - why should the europeans risk their troops?
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Andrew,
I am just listening to Brown the man from women who know him. Please pass the sick bag, does Brown flirt, please!!
He may well flirt but he also picks his nose and eats it, he also doesn't shake the hand of policemen on duty at Number 10, when President Obama does.
He's a blokey bloke, all boys together. Was McBride sacked or did he resign, does he still contact Number 10.
Warm and charming and friendly, also a man who reads out the names of the dead every wednesday, a man who is not elected by anybody in England.
When is he going to be on Songs of Praise, telling us to be patriotic no doubt. A son of the Manse, a moral compass, please I feel terribly ill. Brown the Mafia boss, never pulls the trigger himself, oh yes I can believe this. Gutless actually, is what I would say.
Ah, the dark arts, Darling and Balls, now how does Darling stay in place. Loved it when Mandelson was as asked are you Browns Willie, aka Thatcher and Willie Whitelaw. Brilliant.
A strong reliable sort of guy, please he is not strong and reliable, he is weak, and completely out of his depth. I do not trust Brown, just as I did not trust Blair.
Flint, good initiatives, how do we attack the Tories. Anything to stay on power. Leadership test in the Autumn, there will be an October election, there must be, sorry click, click, hushed tone in voice, no mention of the war in Afghanistan. Stop this Griffin, you are just so not patriotic, Brown must be consigned to the waste paper bin.
Gordons women, pass the sick bag. I'm off to watch the cricket, let us hope that they show their patriotism and don't lose to those Aussies.
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# 113
I must say meninwhitecoats, that for someone renowned for talking complete drivel, for Gordon Brown to claim that launching war on people living in a desert hell hole will keep terrorists off the streets of the UK, is indicative of someone losing his last vestiges of sanity.
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Andrew,
the trouble is with Brown that he is now saying that our occupation of Afghanistan is to keep terror off the streets of Britain. He then mentions Pakistan. I think that Brown needs to choose his words very carefully. From what he is saying I would say that we are under threat from those Pakistanis who now live in this country, that they are a threat to our security. Now I regard myself as being rather clued up and I am sure that the impression to which I allude to is not one that Brown wishes to convey. However, he is whether by design or by accident.
I think that he needs to clarify his position and to confirm in no uncertain terms that he does not regard the Pakistanis who now live in our country as being a threat to our security. Either they are or they are not. It would appear not to be the Moslems who are a threat, it is now people from specific areas, crucibles of, well I am no longer sure what term the PM now wants to use but crucibles of something or other.
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116 TAG
I have lived among and worked with many of Indian/Pakistani descent.
There has been hardly any that do not refer to India or Pakistan as "home", even 3rd generation British born and they go there often.
The departures and arrivals of the Islamabad flights at airports are something to be seen.
There is a lot of importing of Pakistani girls to marry British Pakistani men and sending home of British Pakistani girls to marry Pakistani men, not always with consent.
When you have within this country a group of people who identify so much with another country and still practice its customs, it is illadvised of any politician, especially a PM to imply that country, Pakistan, is somehow a threat.
If that isnt designed to provoke a reaction I dont know what is.
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Gordon Brown is certainly going for a major footnote in history.
After a catastrophic financial disaster back home, resolved by rewarding those responsible with the contents of the country's economic coffers, he's now seeking to re-enact the disastrous Shah of Persia debacle. In doing so he's embarking on a schedule of military campaigns that would impress Richard the Lionheart, and this from a Socialist government that would shrivel at any suggestion of colonial aspirations.
It wouldn't be so bad if it were well considered with a hope of success and not likely to prove totally counter productive. He was put in power (or not as it happens) to look after the interests of the UK and its citizens, which now also happens to include a sizeable number of persons who won't look kindly on a long drawn out conflict with their kith and kin.
The greater threat from yougsters going to terror camps in Afghanistan is that they'll get robbed and murdered out there and it's doubtful they'll learn anything they couldn't google from home in the UK.
Having persuaded Pakistan to launch a blitzkrieg on the tribal territories, surely asking their co-operation to monitor or block UK citizens visitng terror camps would be easy.
If the Government could then stop itself from greeting and adopting every terrorist and undesirable who lands on our soil, we might get somewhere. It's almost as if the government wants to create an influx of Afghan refugees fleeing from our soldiers.
The BNP must be quite confused by criticism from Labour, but reassured that their policy of driving half the population of Afghanistan to our borders will be fantastic for their chances at the next election.
The army is in an impossible situation.
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Andrew,
what a brilliant game of cricket. This is Dunkirk, this is Jamie Anderson and Montie Panasar. You just can't make it up. Now what will Brown claim on this one, that he somehow has something to do with it. That somehow we have somebody passing the Tebbit cricket test. Well done.
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Afghanistan Rights Monitor
"The report claimed that criminal charges pending against infamous Uzbek warlord Abdul Rashid Dostum and his suspension from a senior army post were dropped in exchange for the votes he would bring from his party.
"Those close to President Karzai and Dostum say the warlord has been promised at least three ministries in Karzai?s future government," it said.
Another "ruthless warlord" Mohammad Muhaqiq came out in public support for Karzai because he was promised two provinces and at least three ministries in government, ARM said."
Is this the democracy Gordon brings at the muzzle of a rifle to the people of Afghanistan ? - and don't doubt for one second that they'll turn Taliban the minute the West turns its back.
It'a mess and always has been. Standing in the middle of it is fatal.
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#116 Tag
Yes there is a real possibility of creating an enemy within by constantly alienating the Pakistani community and Leaders.
I would say Bush significantly destabilised the country under Musharaf, who for all his faults was doing his best to hold everything together.
I was always very uncomfotable during the Iraq war that Bush and Blair seemed to pursue a "Christian agenda" implying the conflict was between cultures not nations. I had hopes that Obama's mixed race background would help transcend this perception.
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Gordon and Miliband might be interested to contact the people from whom I took the quote about the political situation in Afghanistan.
They appear well informed with better credentials than the Taliban, war lords and drugs dealers they are used to dealing with.
"RAWA, the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan, was established in Kabul, Afghanistan, in 1977 as an independent political/social organization of Afghan women fighting for human rights and for social justice in Afghanistan. The founders were a number of Afghan woman intellectuals under the sagacious leadership of Meena who in 1987 was assassinated in Quetta, Pakistan, by Afghan agents of the then KGB in connivance with fundamentalist band of Gulbuddin Hekmatyar . RAWAs objective was to involve an increasing number of Afghan women in social and political activities aimed at acquiring womens human rights and contributing to the struggle for the establishment of a government based on democratic and secular values in Afghanistan."
If I were a journalist I might consider contacting them to get an opinion, from their perspective, on how well Gordon's doing with his strategy.
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Andrew,
I watched the BBC film this evening Mississippi Burning. May I recomment others watch it if they can because it typifies actually what is happening in Afghanistan and the Aghan people who will have to live in that country after we have left, which we will do, eventually. Then the revenge squads go in. The people who 'collaborated' will suffer, those who took aid, or allowed a member of the family to join the security forces, or who interpreted for the occupiers.
Brown actually is right. He must not reinforce defeat, there must be no more British soldiers sent to Afghanistan. Nowhere in the world do I know of any 'state' which has succesfully been given democracy. The people have to fight and die for their democracy. They cannot be given democracy at the point of a gun, it is something you are willing to die for.
Nobody should be left under any illusion, we have lost in Afghanistan, just as we have in Iraq. It has been such a terrible waste. Contrary to any opinion polls I do not think that we can accept these losses for much longer, the young men now dying in Afghanisatn are not fighting any more for us, they are doing it for their mates, their pals, their buddies, they do not give a fig for us, I think it is all about survival, and long friendships. They have been deserted by us, this is not about patriotism, this is about the politicians, with their flags, bugles, drums and parades. Keep the people in their place, give them a parade, only trouble is the Afghans and the Iraqis have their heroes, their flags, their parades.
During the Vietnam war I used to go along with the garbage about the Domino Effect, once one falls they will all fall. Now the American veterans go back to look at the battle sites, to see the tunnels, the damage done by agent orange. How many Afghan soldiers have died in these latest offensives, nobody knows and nobody seems to care. That is why this occipation will end, nobody really cares. If they did they would not allow it to continue. Eighteen year old boys Brown, that is your legacy, and the women and children. Enjoy your holiday won't you, it is after all your patriotic duty. I want to be sick, instead I shed a tear, and I am so glad that it is not my son that has his name read out by you Brown, because I would spit in your face, 'we do bad things to bad people' well our boys are not bad people Brown, they follow orders, they do as they are ordered, for the honour of their regiment, and for their mates, not for the 'honourable' members who seem more interested in their own expenses than equipping an army.
Consider this, we spend a couple of million on a new helicopter, send it to Afghanistan, where some freedom fighter has the gall to bring it down with small arms fire or an RPG. How on earth will the politicians explain that away to the accountants. Don't waste money on equipment, we can lose some young eighteen year olds, they are so much cheaper, and we haven't wasted so much money on their training, as would be wasted on some equipment. I think that this war does not have public support, there are are lies, damned lies, and statistics. You can fool some of the people some of the time, you can fool all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time. Remember that when Brown speaks, we've lost, bring them home.
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I can only gasp in awe that Gordon, who always preaches to us from such a lofty pulpit of moral superiority, is using our troops to install a government in Afghanistan we'd condemn in any other part of the world.
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Personally I am puzzled somewhat as to actually why we are in Afghanistan. Obviously I do not know as much as others on this subject, however I thought all Governments which engage in a war had to have an exit strategy. What is ours? I have not heard anything to say we have one. What are our real aims in being there?.
We keep being told that the reason for us being in Afghanistan is to keep our streets safe. This again I do not really understand, how does fighting in Afghanistan stop terrorists training in Pakistan. Which seems to be where our trouble here seems to be coming from. Surely if you want to stop terrorists coming here, the way forward is to make our borders safe and try to stop our home grown terrorists from being recruited. This home grown terrorism seems to have grown since we followed our disastrous foreign policy.
Surely if the Government is not providing our troops with enough helicopters and armoured road transport, they are breaking the covenant with our armoured forces. There does not seem to be enough troops either to win this war, therefore would not an orderly withdrawal be the best thing to do in these circumstances.
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Morning All
How sad that it takes such human tragedy to bring this issue to the fore. Come on Andrew hold the politicians to account on Afghanistan. Just what is the strategy? Keeping terrorism off out streets is the reason (if you believe it) but what is our strategy? Does the coalition forces have to kill all would-be terrorists in Afghanistan? How would they know? And who are the Taliban? Who are al qaeda? If the Taliban are a conventional army then they can be beaten. If they are an ideology then war will not defeat them.
I am shamed that we have shifted the burden of responsibility to Afghanistan. Just where did the terrorists come from? Where are all the narcotics going? All roads lead back to the west.
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Good Morning Andrew,
we have our brave soldiers in Afghanistan, young men, dying. At the same time we have the public inquiry into the shocking death of Mr Mousa in Iraq. We have the truth beginning to come out from America about Dick Cheney and enhanced interrogation techniques. We have the American Attorney General looking into rendition and torture.
We have a serious problem. When a country goes to war it does not happen spontaneously, it takes years, almost decades of planning, of equipping an army, of training the forces. None of this has happened with regard to Afghanistan. In WWI the English had built up a massive Navy, Germany had done the same, the war was going to be European land war with England putting up a blockade, just like a blockade had worked in the American Civil War. Look into the history of Churchill. So the English built up the navy, it gave employment to the shipbuilders, to young men serving in the Navy. What happened, all this investment was wasted because those naughty German fought a dirty war with those submarines.
There is not exit from Afghanistan. Think of it as a mincer, the 'enemy' are quite happy for our soldiers to go and fight in their 'country'. We can have a good fight, we can be patriots, we can go to heaven, the enemy are quite happy. It is better to fight on the ground of Afghanistan than on the green fields of England. This is pathetic. We won, we have now lost, we should not be in Afghanistan, America will pull out by the next Presidential election, trust me, so why on earth are we there. Please Brown, tell us why we are there, oh that's right for Queen and Country, please!
Brown is a disgrace, he will read out the names on Wednesday, again. In the meantime instructions will go out in Afghanistan, we can't have any more deaths. Protect your men better, don't let any more die, I get sad every week continually having to read out the names. Please, I don't want to have to read out all the names, what if we lose a hundred men, what am I going to do then. We've lost because of lack of leadership, everybody needs a point, a purpose, if you are going to die for your country then there has to have been a point, otherwise we are no different to all other armies of occupation, we're here because we're here because we're here because...
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#123
Gordon Brown and this discredited government should be forced to read this
post until they know every word.
#125
I agree and am as puzzled as you.
Is it beyond the wit of man to monitor those who travel to Pakistan for
the purpose of attending the terrorist training camps?
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Good morning each & Andrew.
Growing democracy is the same as growing anything...first plant the seed.
In Afghanistan democracy should begin from the ground up; within localised areas. Their leaders being empowered at the national level.
We are, at the moment, doing top-down governance-politico to politico.
(I read in todays Guardian letters that 'similar' deals are being done government to war-lord; whether the people like it or not.)
If any such local 'authority' wishes to continue with their opium crop - we should buy it. [paying in part with agricultural aid]
Afghanistan is their land; area and area growing together over many many many years. What has been lacking is any co-operation at the national level.
If it is the fact that the people are farmers one minute and fighters the next it is these same people who could see the advantage of co-operating with us to empower themselves and each other.
Plainly it is in the interest of Afghanis to fight against the west's notion of 'dumping' a ready made government on them.
Democracy must be seen by all involved as..."Power to the people."
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Late to this thread, and Nick's thread closed before I could register, but I wanted to make my comments even though the rest of you have moved on, because two things have stood out for me in the original affair of this blog.
The first is that I cannot believe the level of hypocrisy coming from Labour on this. Actually, that's a silly statement. Labour's hypocrisy knows no limits so nothing should surprise me, but given how low their previous lies and smears have taken them, I was beginning to think we might have reached bottom, but apparently not.
I can't help drawing comparisons between this scandal and Smeargate. Key differences are that this is a media scandal whereas Smeargate was a political scandal. David Cameron, the person that Labour somehow want to be held accountable has nothing to do with it. There are rumours that the scale of this is much larger than Smeargate, but to believe that you have to believe that the Police, CPS and the courts are complicit in some sort of cover-up. Even in Labour land where such institutions have been politicised and corrupted from their public duty, this is still hard to believe. Cameron has to be able to make a judgement based on the facts of the time. He has to be able to give somebody a second chance, particularly if their only acknowledged crime is lack of knowledge of wrong doing. If new facts arrive then he should be able to change his mind without stain. Until new facts arrive however, due process has to be given some weight.
The biggest difference in this affair to my mind is that Coulson, the man at the top, claimed to have no knowledge of awful things done on his watch. He accepted responsibility. He acknowledge how bad the things were and then he resigned his highly paid and influential job in recognition of his failure at the top. In contrast, Gordon Brown who was in charge at the time of Smeargate in his organisation, acknowledged how bad the crime was, accepted full responsibility for it and then did absolutely nothing about it. McBride was even allowed to resign instead of being sacked. Rumours are that he is still present in some way and patronage for his family within Labour persists with employment of his girlfriend in a "Communications" role. Hypocrisy, Spin; it's hard to work out which of Labour's numerous vices defines them best.
Secondly, the media have made much of the legal issues with respect to public interest. How is it that the Telegraph can break the law with impunity with respect to MPs' expenses and yet the News of the World can't invade the privacy of public figures when arguably the public is interested in both?
For me this debate is only valid if the law is right and just. On public information (metrics on governance, evidence of how public servants spend public money) the idea that Government owns it and that we can get access (sometimes) by asking nicely (FoI Requests) and that unauthorised leaks are a crime, is absurd. Information gathered by public servants at public expense on matters of public interest should be routinely published. The crime should be non-disclosure or false representation.
For people in the public eye, they have to be able to control what they make public and what they keep private through use of private email, phones etc. They probably have to have a duty of care on what they throw out, but nobody should have the right to tap their communications except in pursuit of legal proceedings in relation to suspected criminal activity. Where criminal activity is revealed through unauthorised breaches of privacy, this is where the grey issues are and where the debate should be. I tend to view each case on its merits. The one thing that I am adamant about is that criminals should not be able to escape criminal proceedings through evidence obtained illegally; both crimes should be prosecuted, the criminal acts and the illegal search.
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Invade Columbia to curtail the cocaine trade. Invade Somalia to curtail piracy. Invade Saudi Arabia for revenge for 19 of the 20 9/11 bombers. Invade Pakistan to close the madrasas and the weapons markets and safeguard the nukes. Invade Zimbabwe to restore human rights. Invade Iran to restore democracy. Why did we invade Afghanistan - was it that it came first alphabetically in Bush's world atlas?
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Andrew,
just listened to the non answers from the Minister with regard to the number of Chinook helicopters now operating in Afghanistan. He said he would not give the answer because the government never refers to operational details. Well on that basis why are we even being told about the deaths, why the details every week, surely this is assisting the morale of the enemy. This is a disgrace, Rammell only believes something he does not know. Helicopter numbers increased by 60%.
Andrew, the enemy know how many we have got, as you say they just look at the numbers, they have spies everywhere. Ten billion pounds on new equipment, a balance, an absolutely ruthless enemy. An enemy who are fighting for their homeland.
We are having all this going on, and what happens next week, the MPs go on holiday, yes off to the sun, to think of ways of handling the upcoming election. This wednesday is the last week that there will be PMQs until MPs return on the 12th October. What on earth are you going to do when there is a death Brown, just what are you going to do. Progress is being made, it is the media, what would the situation be if we were not in Afghanistan. As for terror on the streets remind me about Dr Kelly, remind me about Mr Tomlinson, remind me about the Brazilian Mr de Menezes, remind me about Weapons of Mass Destruction, remind me where does bin Laden come from, educated, oh that's right Saudi Arabia.
Finally, the government in Afghanisatn is no different to that of Zimbabwe, corrupt and bankrupt, so why are our troops not fighting to preserve the governmnet in Zimambwe, that's right they are not fit to govern, same as Afghanistan. They are passing laws to get the votes from the war lords. Many accuse the BNP in this country of being fascist, well I would strongly assert that the government in Afghanistan is both fascist and mysogonistic, the facts are there for all to see. That's why our boys are dying, for a failed 'state' which is not and never will be a state.
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Re send in more chinook helicopters and everything in afghanistan will be hunky dory.
Helecopters are dangerous! They can be easily shot down , are difficult to fly, and more prone to mechanical failure(I believe chinooks are particularly prone). The more helicopter flights the more likely of an incident killing 10s of people. Basically I think this is just politicians and that awful kind of journalist who like to pander to the angry mob. Pretending to know what they're talking about. Why can't NuLab see the obvious magic bullet solution. Because it doesn't exist!
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Indeed TAG;
What if we were not in Afghanistan?
...No dead soldiers.......ummm
AND No rhetoric.
That seems to be that.
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Andrew,
all these crocodile tears from MPs over deaths of our soldiers, before they go on their holidays. Have great time boys and girls.
In the meantime let me tell you that on 4th August 1914 we went to war with Germany. The House of Commons sat until 10th August 1914. They then went on holiday, could not miss the grouse shooting season and the holidays were already arranged. They then came back from holiday on the 25th August 1914. Not a lot has changed in the attitudes of MPs to our soldiers in nearly a hundred years.
Enjoy your time on holiday with your children Brown, there are a lot of people who will not have sons to join them, nor husbands nor fathers. Your words are so terribly hollow.
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Andrew I used to respect you in the old days.But now find you are soooo partisan in your politics.Is it because you are part of the good old BBC now? In the past few days you have been popping up on various BBC programmes giving us your views about this NOW story. You have been almost animated.Your usual jolly jovial Blue Nun style gone. In the last few years there have been far more disgraceful episodes perpetrated by HM Government.Yet not a pipsqueak from you....Or you have just dismissed them with a laugh.Tory moats this,duck houses that,yet huge sums taken by member of HM Government...not a word.No mention of Baroness Uddin either.
O/T Diane Abbott was trying to have a serious conversation the other night on your 'show' about young men in her community disappearing from the family unit.This is a huge problem.Yet what did you do?Joked with that silly American girl about something else.You used to be a serious journalist.You are a just a vaudeville act now in your twilight years.Shame on you..As I said you used to be a serious voice in journalism.Not any more.So sad
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Andrew
Good work on Afghanistan. However it is important to remember the legacy of why we went there and who instigated it. Why? Well we should never lift an ounce of responsibility from their shoulders. Our troops are there because of their decisions and they should be accountable for them.
I am afraid the minister just sounded like every other ministerial puppet. Increase in spending, 60% here there and everywhere but you were right to "hear" what was not said. Spending is spending and what have they been spending it on? 60% increase on 5 helicopters is 3 additional helicopters = still nowhere near 120. How do they have the brassneck to trot all this twaddle out. They took us into these wars so is it surprising they are spending more of our money? And the Tory MP just sloped the shoulders. We need achievable goals and a plan. What we have is rhetoric and excuses.
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133. dhwilkinson
Hello dh.
To pick up on your comments:
I agree with you that helicopters, Chinooks in particular, make nice targets, but in modern warfare they are crucial for troop mobility.
Fact: our troops don't have enough.
Difficult to fly? That's what pilots are trained to do dh. Fly them under extreme conditions.
Will they cut down on casualties? Maybe; by deploying troops faster into the contact zones they make our forces more effective. Fast low flying helicopters are not as easy to track as slow moving foot patrols or even mechanised patrols.
Angry mob? I'm angry dh because even though I don't have all the facts I can see that the MoD has screwed up on several levels. Well documented if you want to look it up.
For me this is not a party political thing, it's about a government committing to a political and logistical nightmare of a campaign, without providing the tools necessary for its success. Not unlike Iraq.
One last question. Do you think that replacing the Taliban with a pro-Western government, with no guarantees of its long-term success, will stop al-Qaeda continuing their operations from other Eurasian, North African and Middle-Eastern countries where they already exist? That, according to our government is the primary reason we are in Afghanistan.
Is there a magic bullet solution? There never is in this kind of scenario. It requires a commonsense assessment of what can realistically be achieved on the ground. You can't build a lasting infrastructure without winning the war. And you can't win the war without building a stabilising infrastructure. You need both for the mission to succeed.
Are both achievable? Historically, looking at Afghanistan's political track record, I'd suggest that's virtually mission impossible.
Countless lessons from the past are being ignored for what looks like political expediency.
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136. dragonlady6
"No mention of Baroness Uddin either."
What has happened with the Uddin case? Anyone know?
I found this letter on a social housing website posted earlier this month:
"I would be failing the tenants and members of the housing co-operative that I represent if I did not express my dismay over the revelations regarding Baroness Uddins expenses claims (Inside Housing, 8 May).
These have brought the whole of the housing sector into disrepute and I would echo Tim Leunigs call (Inside Housing, 5 June) for her to stand down from the House of Lords and pay back all the money she has claimed. She might also consider her tenancy at Spitalfields Housing Association.
I believe Baroness Uddin cannot justifiably represent anyone who is homeless or speak on homelessness issues given her flagrant disregard of all sense of duty and responsibility."
Duncan Aitkins, housing services manager, Arneway Housing Co-operative
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131: We invaded Afghanistan because it was where the 9/11 attacks were planned. Did you miss that?
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140 TheFirstRalph
Are you certain about that?
Saudi Arabia and America seem more likely.
But accepting your assertion , what the heck has that to do with us?
You will remember that the Bin Laden family, resident in America, were given special clearance to fly out straight after the 9/11 incident. Just another one of the unexplained details about it.
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140. TheFirstRalph wrote:
131: We invaded Afghanistan because it was where the 9/11 attacks were planned. Did you miss that?
=
Afghanistan is believed to have been the base from which it was co-ordinated but the main participants were tracked all over the globe.
Bin Laden and the al-Qaeda leadership are now thought to be over the border in Pakistan.
The Twin Towers were in New York. The 7/7 LONDON bombers were 'home-grown', there were alleged links to training camps in Pakistan. Why have we not invaded Pakistan?
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#140
I think that you will find that a lot of the planning for 9/11 actually took place in America. Don't forget the flying clubs where they learnt to fly. How long were the people who took over the planes in America prior to the atrocity, who funded them, where is bin Laden from, where were the people who took over the planes from, were they Afghan nationals or were they Saudi? Why were certain Saudi nationals spirited out of the states on the evening of 9/11.
As for Ainsworth in his statement to the House he referred to forces meeting heavy resistance, accordingly he is admitting that the so called insurgents are in fact resistance fighters, they want the occupiers out.
As for Reid, he was demanding corrections about what he did or did not say about shots being fired, this is pathetic if people are going to be so concerned about what they did or did not say years ago.
When will they admit that we have lost the battle for hearts and minds. We lost that battle with extra-ordinary rendition, enhanced interrogation techniques, killing women and children in indiscriminate bombing raids, not protecting the local population from suicide bombers, but what is worst is actually supporting a corrupt and criminal government. Does anybody actually think that the elections in Afghanistan in August will actually be fair, I mean all we have to do is to look at Iran, yes we are going forward alright, we are advancing on all fronts, sorry that was the Somme, click, and I am not being unpatriotic neither am I or anybody who holds the same views as myself beneath contempt.
Finally, did you know that Afghan tax revenues doubled last year, is that because they have brought in PAYE. So we are doing some good after all.
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140. TheFirstRalph
PS. to my 142.
Wasn't Bin Laden's original beef with US allies Saudi Arabia?
And didn't Bush halt extradition negotiations for Bin Ladin with the Taliban by refusing a third party as arbiter?
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Some people have also forgotten that GW Bush invited TALIBAN leaders to his ranch for tea and scones prior to the 2000 elections.
At that time they were not great enemies of freedom and a threat to the world.
Saudi Arabians attack the USA. The USA ignores Saudi Arabia and attacks a bunch of tribesmen in Afghanistan. Makes perfect sense.
Worth remembering that the Taliban destroyed the opium crops. Zanulabour used that as an excuse for the invasion.
By destroying the opium crops the Taliban were responsible for INCREASING crime in the UK, due to the increased price of heroin. Alexander, Murphy or Ingram made those claims back in 2001.
It should be a capital crime to refer to someone as brave just because they wear a uniform and are now dead. Some of them must have been cowards. Just as some of the army are homicidal maniacs.
The truth should always be told and an end made to cant and hypocrisy.
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Andrew,
when asked about troop numbers Brown replied along the lines that decisions will be made after the August Afghanistan elections. Now then i hope that decisions will not be made without parliament having a chance to debate and vote on this important issue. Please note my earlier comment that they go on holiday next week so there will be no PMQs after this wednesday. I think that this is totally unaccpetable.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Extracts from a statement given to the US Congress im 1998 by John J. Maresca, vice president of international relations, Unocal Corporation. (one of the world's leading energy resource and project development companies):
"I congratulate you for focusing on Central Asia oil and gas reserves and the role they play in shaping U.S. policy."
"I would like to focus today on three issues. First, the need for multiple pipeline routes for Central Asian oil and gas resources. Second, the need for U.S. support for international and regional efforts to achieve balanced and lasting political settlements to the conflicts in the region, including Afghanistan. Third, the need for structured assistance to encourage economic reforms and the development of appropriate investment climates in the region."
"Other export pipelines must be built."
"At Unocal, we believe that the central factor in planning these pipelines should be the location of the future energy markets that are most likely to need these new supplies."
"I should note that it is in everyone's interest that there be adequate supplies for Asia's increasing energy requirements. If Asia's energy needs are not satisfied, they will simply put pressure on all world markets, driving prices upwards everywhere."
"The only other possible route is across Afghanistan, which has of course its own unique challenges. The country has been involved in bitter warfare for almost two decades, and is still divided by civil war. From the outset, we have made it clear that construction of the pipeline we have proposed across Afghanistan could not begin until a recognized government is in place that has the confidence of governments, lenders, and our company."
"Last October, the Central Asia Gas Pipeline Consortium, called CentGas, in which Unocal holds an interest, was formed to develop a gas pipeline which will link Turkmenistan's vast Dauletabad gas field with markets in Pakistan and possibly India. The proposed 790-mile pipeline will open up new markets for this gas, traveling from Turkmenistan through Afghanistan to Multan in Pakistan. The proposed extension would move gas on to New Delhi, where it would connect with an existing pipeline. As with the proposed Central Asia oil pipeline, CentGas can not begin construction until an internationally recognized Afghanistan Government is in place."
Addendum:
Until August 2001, the US government saw the Taliban regime "as a source of stability in Central Asia that would enable the construction of an oil pipeline across Central Asia"
Enron were willing to give the Taliban millions of dollars to strike a deal on a pipeline through Afghanistan. As a result of Congressional investigations into Enron after its collapse, evidence of the CIA doing Enron's overseas bidding with the Taliban was uncovered. Money for feasibility studies which had been siphoned off to the Taliban may have been used to fund al-Queda.
After 9/11 Enron was still hoping the Taliban would give up Bin Laden so that they could continue negotiations.
When the Taliban refused US conditions it is reported that a US representative told the Taliban, 'either you accept our offer of a carpet of gold, or we bury you under a carpet of bombs."
For further information Google UNOCAL, Afghanistan and pipeline and Enron / Taliban. Many of the articles will be of the conspiratorial type but sift through and there are some more 'establishment' contributions. And Congressional hearings are on the record.
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blame game @ 148
mmm ... ENRON ... now they really were the "Unacceptable Face of Capitalism"
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I see Nick's blog has been closed down again early - so yet again this is the only outlet for serious discussion.
I read the posts with regard to Afghanistan with an open mind; I genuinely do not know the right approach.
I just want to know that our troops are properly resourced [which sadly I know they are not].
We have a clearly defined gameplan and exit strategy.
If we have a legitimate endgame and are properly resourced, have we got the political will to carry it through?
The worst case scenario is that we continue losing troops for no tangible gain, then at some point down the line bow to political pressures to withdraw leaving anyone who has ever co-operated with us to face terrible reprisals.
We have a great responsibility here not to lead anyone astray and must at all costs avoid a Cambodia like purge of the Afghan's in retribution/cleansing after our departure.
The trouble is I just don't believe anyone anymore - how sad that we cannot accept any information at face value these days.
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meninwhitecaots 150
You have hit the nail on the head, you just cannot believe anything you are told anymore by media, newspapers and Government.
I have not believed a word this Government has said since the death of Dr. David Kelly and the invasion of Iraq. I am pleased to see that there is a push to look into Dr. Kellys death to find out what happened. However I guess like everything else, we will never find out the truth in the end.
I wonder when the files in years to come are opened on this Governments period in office, whether we will all be shocked by what exactly has been going on.
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#148 TBG; Thank you for that v informative.
Roll-on the election. Change?
"Yes we can."
It reminds me of this...
Now it really is a very pretty garden.
And Chingford on the Eastward can be seen.
With a ladder and some glasses
You can see to Hackney Marshes,
If it wasn't for the houses (of parliment) in between.
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sc @ 151
I agree with you there, Susan, and I guess the Conservative Opposition should be added to that list - just for completeness - other thing is, in the light of the minimum wage drama on the other blog, I'm wondering if we need a break from each other - only for a couple of weeks or so (no more than that) but time to think about where we are, you know, compared with how it used to be - and where we're going, of course ... do we want the same things? ... please don't try and make me change my mind, wouldn't be fair on either of us - but I'll write again, I promise, when my head has cleared - when I've made a decision - bye babe
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153. sagamix
Under a Tory government you'd have a 3 month cooling off period. ;-)
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Isn't the point that the entire Private Investigation industry is based on the illegal activities of its staff, often in collusion with the police, who are frequently former colleagues?
Isn't it also the case that journalists regularly, knowingly, make use of such services? Can Mr Neil confirm or deny whether, in his opinion. this is and has long been, a standard practice?
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Andrew,
with reference to my earlier posting #146 I have now heard that parliament will now have a special debate on Thursday to discuss Afghanistan. I commend your blog, in that to be honest my comment was off subject, but it would appear to me that your moderators understand the anger there is with parliament on this and other issues.
As soon as Brown uttered the words that he will wait until August before possibly committing more troops then an MP should have noticed what I did as soon as the words were uttered. They do seem more interested in their own words than listening to what is said. It was obvious that wednesday will be the last PMQs before their break, and that if there are problems during or after the Afghan elections then parliament must be recalled for a full debate and vote before any more troops are sent.
As for Reid then for him to say that we would not be the aggressor and that we would be happy if a shot were not to be fired, then he must have agreed the form of words with the Prime Minster before he uttered them. So, if we go into a district which we had ignored since the invasion of 2001, then he seriously thought that we would not be seen as the aggressor. There is also a problem with the timeline. Apparently we went into Afghanistan in 2001 to keep terror off the streets of London. Home grown terrorists then proved that aim to be wrong, the July bombings are proof of that. So, we went in to keep terror off the streets and failed. We had been in Afghanistan since 2001, yet when did the bombings in London take place, so our mission failed. So we are reinforcing defeat, something which any military officer educated in Sandhurst will tell you that they are taught not to propose.
Sadly, Harry would not be sent be sent to Iraq for his own safety. So what did the idiots do, they sent him to Afghanistan, where he wears a cap 'we do bad things to bad people' and he is shown operating a computer calling up an air strike. Now if that is not an aggressive act then I do not know what is. Furthermore, all this is recorded, but because of an agreement with the media, all of this is kept from the British public, for his, and the troops who had to protect him, from harms way.
Now then, it would appear to me that the resources which were utilised to protect a Prince of the realm, the Queens grandson, should be likewise employed to protect all of our soldiers from harm. Where is Harry now. Why not on our screens telling us how if he is not there with his men then he will leave the army.
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Andrew,
can I please repeat an extract from an earlier posting #123 13 July and it is this:
'During the Vietnam war I used to go along with the garbage about the Domino Effect, once one falls they will all fall. Now the American veterans go back to look at the battle sites, to see the tunnels, the damage done by agent orange. How many Afghan soldiers have died in these latest offensives, nobody knows and nobody seems to care. That is why this occipation will end, nobody really cares. If they did they would not allow it to continue. Eighteen year old boys Brown, that is your legacy, and the women and children. Enjoy your holiday won't you, it is after all your patriotic duty. I want to be sick, instead I shed a tear, and I am so glad that it is not my son that has his name read out by you Brown, because I would spit in your face, 'we do bad things to bad people' well our boys are not bad people Brown, they follow orders, they do as they are ordered, for the honour of their regiment, and for their mates, not for the 'honourable' members who seem more interested in their own expenses than equipping an army'.
We must succeed, the consequences will be appalling says a general on the Today programme. This mission is really important, sounds like Verdun. It is history repeating itself. Tell me when does this general lose his job, when is he retiring. Can we wait 'til his book comes out, just like Gen Sir Mike Jackson writes a book on his involvement in Iraq. maybe if he taken a bit more interest in Afghanistan, then we would not be where we are now. Now Jackson is involved in supplying contractors to the failed exercise in Iraq, how many contractors are operating in Afghanistan.
Now Brown is talking to Karzai about Afghan troops in this new offensive, maybe he should have spoken to him before the offensive. Let me tell why I think he didn't. It is because if we had told 'the government' of Afghanistan then the Taliban would have been tipped off, they would all of fled, not only that but the Afghan troops know that they will be deserted just like the interpretors have been in Iraq, where they now live in great danger for being collaborators.
Brown does not know from day to day why we are in Afghanistan, just like we were lisled over WMD in Iraq, we are now misled over Afghanistan. It is not about keeping terror off the streets of Britain, does Brown not know how many people were knifed to death last year. How many innocent children have died at the hands of child murderers. How many people have been killed or injured by rogue drunken car drivers. Brown is not a leader, why is the Queen not saying that she regrets the loss of her soldiers in a foreign war, being fought in her name. She is still the head of state, she is why soldiers sign up, to serve their Queen and country. Not for Brown, who will soon be consigned to the long list of failed politicians who have sent our military off to their deaths, for no glory. Brown call an election, let the people speak, or will there not be an election because of national security, or swine flu.
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Andrew,
I'll tell you what. Abandon parliament for a day. Get all the MPs to go to 'welcome' back the coffins of our dead soldiers. They are gutless. No minister has yet attended any of the returning coffins, I know what open the coffins. Let the politicians see what a dead soldier looks like, one who has been blown to pieces as a result of their policy. That might just get the soldiers out, bring them home, this is just a waste and is not important for our national security.
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Good Morning Andrew, Good Morning all
I am still unclear about the situation in Afghanistan and still do not see a strategy to get us out. I am still unclear about the numbers of helicopters available to our troops over there. Does this 60% increase from 2006 mean that there are 60% more helicopters in Afghanistan? Does this include the 8 that were a major MoD overspend see Chinook blunders cost MoD £500m How many of these are available to the troops in Afghanistan?
I do not know what the answer is but feel we need some honesty about this campaign. This is not served by trotting out levels of overall spending.
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TAG 158
Brown has been conducting cabinet meetings around the UK. What about one in Helmand?
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I was very interested in the interview Andrew carried out with the Armed Forces minister Bill Rammell. It seemed to me that this discussion exposed the different role now played by the media in a war situation. Andrew constantly asked the minister, without success, to confirm the number of helicopters we had available in Afghanistan. Mr Rammell refused to answer on the grounds that information like this is never revealed to the enemy during a conflict. Am I right in thinking that in previous wars questions like this were normally only asked by enemy spies? How can any country conduct a successful military operation under the full glare of a free press?
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Good morning each & Andrew.
Talk of 'democracy' in Afghanistan is to miss the point. What the power brokers (NATOish) require is control. A Satrapy.
Throughout the democractic world election results have less to do with popular choice and more (way more) to do with the elevation of a 'clubable' fellow who shares the aims of the west or sees personal advantage in helping the west achieve their ends.
There is a vision held by those in power in the west of what the future MUST look like; the better for their own advantage.
To uphold what 'we' hold dear by denying those self same desires, security and rights to others is the very antithesis of democracy.
Simply curtailing some of these within our own society does not add weight to what is being done to others.
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A couple of points vis-a-vis Newsnight on Afghanistan last night.
1) The government and the military are not in sync despite claims to the contrary.
2) Nobody in the mainstream media is interested in exploring the Bush administration's relationship with the Taliban pre-9/11 and the 'other' reason for requiring a stable pro-Western government, i.e. oil pipelines and gas reserves.
Here's another titbit I came across:
"Hamid Karzai, the Prime Minister of Afghanistan, was a top adviser to the El Segundo, California-based UNOCAL Corporation which was negotiating with the Taliban to construct a Central Asia Gas (CentGas) pipeline from Turkmenistan through western Afghanistan to Pakistan."
"Karzai, the leader of the southern Afghan Pashtun Durrani tribe, was a top contact for the CIA and maintained close relations with CIA Director William Casey, Vice President George Bush, and their Pakistani Inter Service Intelligence (ISI) Service interlocutors. Later, Karzai and a number of his brothers moved to the United States under the auspices of the CIA. Karzai continued to serve the agency's interests, as well as those of the Bush Family and their oil friends in negotiating the CentGas deal, according to Middle East and South Asian sources."
Note: Not sure about the accuracy of the CentGas negotiations bit, but Karzai was definitely an advisor to UNOCAL. Some conspiracy theorists, Michael Moore included, claim that Karzai actually worked for UNOCAL. He didn't.
I'm not promoting any conspiracy theories here but the more you research the more common themes and connecting characters pop up. There are also enough rebuttals and counter-arguments to these theories worth reading, which help lend balance. The connections between ex- and current US Admin officials and organisations like ENRON, CentGas and UNOCAL are simply too obvious to ignore.
The primary reason for (the US) invading Afghanistan may have been the defeat of al-Qaeda, but the local energy resources situation is crucial, not only to the region's prosperity, but global energy markets, not to mention a few interested shareholders in high places. Whether the reason for the UK being in Afghanistan is to keep our streets safer or support the US with their agenda is the debate we should be having.
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161. wbay777
"Am I right in thinking that in previous wars questions like this were normally only asked by enemy spies? How can any country conduct a successful military operation under the full glare of a free press?"
The military are under no obligation to reveal their operational capacity to anyone, nor should they. Unfortunately the MoD has clearly been embarrassed, even shamed, by first hand accounts from the front, as described by the ex-Marine interviewed on Newsnight and correspondence from serving troops, of the general shortage of equipment and the helicopter shortage in particular. If the MoD is guilty of mismanagement and exposing troops to unnecessary risk, then that should be exposed, which is what Andrew was trying to do. I'm sure the Taliban would already have a very good idea of how many helicopters the enemy has at their disposal.
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Andrew.
Can you ask Nick why no blog?
Is he waiting for the Commons Culture Committee and Home Affairs Committee to interview Coulson?
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"If the MoD is guilty of mismanagement and exposing troops to unnecessary risk, then that should be exposed, which is what Andrew was trying to do".
Absolutely. Mismanagement, underfunding, bad advice, poor decision making or any other mistakes need to be exposed. But when? during he conflict itself? Or as with other military operations and wars, WWII or Flaklands, all these questions must surely wait until all our troops are safely home with their families and out of harms way. I would hate to see the day when decisions were made to please the press rather than help the troops.
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I totally agree with Selina Scotts' take on this latest scandlous account of "misdemeanours in high places".One hopes that by the time Autumn arrives and everyone starts back,for the new start after the summer hols,that people will be rejuvenated enough to tackle this thorny issue,providing that over this Summer period doesn't throw up more shocks and surprises from the great world sea of the ever restless ebb and flow of life...!
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