Expect excitement over quality in Old Firm final
The malcontent banner men of Rangers will put their protests in the cupboard and for Celtic the Scottish Cup slaying in Paisley will hardly merit a mention. The Old Firm are back on centre stage.
Let us pray first of all that it is not a bloody Sunday: that the bigoted insane can stretch their pea-sized brains round the fact that this is a football match, not a re-enactment of Irish social history.
There are decent malt whiskies on sale which have aged more years than the IQ of some of these fruitcakes.
Oh, how their thunder has been stolen in recent times, by Inverness Caledonian Thistle and by St Mirren. Oh, the red-faced embarrassment of it all. And oh, how the rest of the nation roared its appreciation. Some indeed, with laughter.
It was a stark reminder that Celtic and Rangers have a divine right to the square root of zilch.
For all that, I wouldn't miss the Co-operative Insurance Cup final at Hampden this Sabbath for all the coffee in Brazil.
The prize is merely the third-most valued bauble in the domestic game, but the pair of them seek something more precious than silverware. Redemption.
The rafters will shake if Celtic lose out on a second cup in eight days. And if that happens the whole house might come down if the championship itself then evaporates in the spring air.
But what of Rangers? Defeat could set their house of cards a-tremor, for although they have the possibility of a Hampden return they still face the task of lassoing Celtic in the title race.
And while - I will wager right now - neither Gordon Strachan nor Walter Smith will admit that victory on Sunday will be a factor in the championship, you sure as hell had better believe it will.
This, my friends, will be a belting afternoon, the latest instalment of a Scottish season which has been more Wacky Races than Formula One.
The track record in Europe proved it. We're manure and we know we are.
But that doesn't mean you can't have a lot of fun in your own backyard. Equality can equal excitement.
Rangers are the only team who can win the treble. That'll be the same Rangers who reached a UEFA Cup final while some petted lipped fans were painting up "we deserve better" banners.
As it happens, I don't think Rangers will win the lot. But they could and for sure nobody else can.
The thing is, I'm not sure which of the two of them needs a win on Sunday more. Or, for that matter, deserves it.
Both of them have weaved and stumbled through the season like a couple of drunks on the way home.
And if they forget to pick up the championship on the way up the road then there may be worse than a good lady with a rolling pin nursing her wrath to keep it warm waiting for them.
Messrs Strachan and Smith would sacrifice victory on Sunday right now - for all the wailing that would follow - if it guaranteed the championship itself. But, of course, it doesn't work that way.
So who's going to win? Search me! How can any student of the Scottish game who pledges neutrality - and I have seen most of both of their fixtures this season - possibly work that one out?
They have been as predictable as a shopping trolley with a dodgy wheel and at times just as sleek. But then, unlike players who ignore managers' instructions, shopping trolleys can retain messages.
Maybe, just maybe, events at St Mirren Park will have injected a new urgency into the champions that will drag them over the line.
But don't hold your breath waiting for a classic. This will be another result for excitement over quality.
"Tell them who you are and what you are about," they said. To be honest, there are days when I struggle to remember myself. Forty years toiling at the coalface of football journalism does that to you. But I have reason to believe that I have reached the heady heights of the title of Football Correspondent of BBC Scotland which gives me a renown, in Scottish terms, of somewhere between Alex Salmond and the deep fried Mars Bar.
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~01~RS~)
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I hope the hampden pitch isn't too bobbly for Celtic, as BBC's pundit Pat Nevin was so keen to point out that the surface of St Mirren Park was the cause of the 'shock' exit of Celtic.
Strangely enough when I read the newspapers on sunday and monday, the reports credited St Mirren on a superb team performance full of grit and determination with no mention of that bad bad bobbly pitch Mr Nevin saw.
So please makes sure the pitch is nice and flat to keep Mr Nevin happy.
and keep the seats clean, the saints are coming to hampden!
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Too close to call this weekend, and neither will come out and try an win the game from the start. I'm ready for another Dull affair, but thats ok as long as we hump Celtic :)
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Haha i like the first post, I LOVE Pat!
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great blog... really made me laugh. i agree about the sectarian bigots-their ignorance should have no place in the modern game. i fancy nakamura to bag a brace :) hope it lives up to the hype
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I can see this one heading into extra time. Bit of a shame that the article spends more time talking about the league championship than the cup final. But what do i know.
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Agreed that it is going to be a tight affair and that both teams won't want to lose but really wish you'd given a bit more insider knowledge on the final Chic.
What are the key battles, what are the key tactics, what strikers should Strachan/Smith play, should Smith go 4-5-1 or have a go at a poor Celtic side and play 4-4-2, should Strachan havea go at Broadfoot with McGeady...
Really wish you had focused more on the football sides of things rather than the usual media nonsense. The last few old firm games have passed off reltively peacefully, in fact I seem to remember the fans being praised by the police at the last one, so not sure why you start your blog with this.
I just hope it's a good game with a better attitude from both sets of players to attacking each other's poor defence. Although I do feel the Gers will pip it as they've been the better team in all three games this season (not two like you menotioned Chic!)
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"Let us pray first of all that it is not a bloody Sunday: that the bigoted insane can stretch their pea-sized brains round the fact that this is a football match, not a re-enactment of Irish social history."
Is Chic Young going to march around Hampden at the weekend venting his frustration at every Celtic fan waving an Irish tri-colour? Why not? If we're going to do away with unwelcome references to Irish social history then why not start with the basics?
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Kenzie1000, why must waving an Irish flag be an unwelcome reference to Irish social history rather than a celebration of Irish roots?
We're living in a pretty intolerant country if carrying the flag of a neighbouring nation that expresses part of your identity can only be seen as provication.
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Whats even worse is that I tried to post a comment in the same vain as Teddy Berr and it has been referred to 'moderators'.. all I asked was why Chick has to focus on the melodramatic stuff in his Celtic v Rangers blogs... and not focus on the game itself which is what the vast majority of fans want to read about..
Obviously to criticise a piece of writing is now deemed to be offensive.
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"The malcontent banner men of Rangers will put their protests in the cupboard and for Celtic the Scottish Cup slaying in Paisley will hardly merit a mention. The Old Firm are back on centre stage.
Let us pray first of all that it is not a bloody Sunday: that the bigoted insane can stretch their pea-sized brains round the fact that this is a football match, not a re-enactment of Irish social history.
There are decent malt whiskies on sale which have aged more years than the IQ of some of these fruitcakes"
Why is it necessary to put this at the head of an article anticipating a good cup final?
I understand that there are people who won't behave themselves but why give them the time of day and persistantly stir things up.
I honestly believe that the media in this country should take a long look at themselves. How are people expected to move on when this rubbish is thrown up everytime these teams play? Don't give the minority the satisfaction of glorifying there behaviour. Lets talk about what matters. The football.
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Markrp
If you go back far enough in my family tree you will end up in Norway, but I don't Using the excuse that, when a Scotsman is seen waving an Irish tri-colour (or a Red-hand of Ulster for that matter), it is more to do with Irish roots simply doesn't wash anymore.
You are right though, we do like in an intolerant country, as Celtic fans have been so keen to illustrate over the last 6 months.
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I didn't think it possible to write a preview of a cup final without naming even one player from either side.
Chico you have made a career out of the bigotry so you can't claim the moral high ground now.
Can't wait for neek weeks exciting installment.
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Rangers v Celtic has always had the 'Irish' issue at it's heart. So long as it doesn't spill over into violence what is wrong with that?
Rangers wouldn't be Rangers, nor Celtic Celtic if you take that away!
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The key point is that normally the game is mince : woefully crude defending, poor creativity in midfield and improvised drama performances in the penalty box and the fans are sure to sing sectarian songs recreating the battle of the Boyne .... hardly an advert for Scottish football.
The most fascinating thing about Scottish football is the dressing room rammies, scandals and the general soap opera atmosphere.
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SugarDunkerton #12, exactly the same here, I posted questioning why we have to focus on the non-football aspects when we should all be looking forward to what will hopefully be a good cup final and it has been referred to the mods!
Obviously the BBC is not keen on allowing people to critique the content of its blogs?!
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Fifteen years ago I left Scotland never to return. Well I'm back and I can't believe the bigotry still goes on. I thought that the influx of overseas players would have rather dampened that particular line of thinking.
Another thing I got upset with was the fact that some English games are not shown in Scotland, for fear of what exactly?
From America to Africa to Asia all the way to Aussie land, you can see the best of English football with consumate ease. Not Scotland though. Forgive me if I won't be watching the Co-op cup final this Sunday. (Thank goodness it's on a Sunday and not clashing with a rather dull affair between Liverpool and Manchester Utd). I will be glued to the radio for the Chesea v. Man city game. I never thought I would see the day when I would say thank you to Mr Rupert Murdoch and his Sky network. At least football lovers still have a chance .
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Two things chico i must comment on. One is while the old firm have declined in quality and are not the invincibles they once where, i don't see any other team in scotland anywhere near them right now nor over the next few years. This is not arrogance just fact and although both lost to stifling performances these shocks happened even when they were mighty and it's all blown out of proportion.
The troubles in ireland this week will be at the forefront of both sides fans make no mistake and i would be very suprised if songs were not sung although i think the authorities miss the point. The fans who sing these songs don't care about what the consequences are and what exactly can other fans do, if they boo this only is at a detriment to the team so it's a no win situation.
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No Brand:
'Another thing I got upset with was the fact that some English games are not shown in Scotland, for fear of what exactly?'
'At least football lovers still have a chance.'
You clearly haven't been in Scotland for a while. What I know is that I live in Glasgow and I'm exposed to an array of English games, be it through Setanta, BSkyB or the occassional Cup game on the Beeb.
Following on from this theme, is anyone watching the Liverpool game tonight on STV?
Football lovers? Chance? What???
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Didnt realise you couldn't critisise in a discussion, maybe you should imply the same rules to your journalists.
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# 25
Are you being serious or are you just a roaster looking for an argument??
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#25: Neither club was formed as a religious entity. Rangers allowed themselves to be bent by the Scottish media in the 1890s to "put these Irish upstarts in their place". They consequently never employed another Catholic for roughly 90 years. And you ask what they have to do with sectarianism?
Remarkable.
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Judging by some of the posts, the "Irish issue" is front and center. With the events this past week, it's not surprising. I hope that it is indeed a very dull affair on and off the pitch.
Great line about the shopping trolley with the dodgey wheel.
Peace to all.
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Eh? Why was my post removed? I didn't write anything that could even be slightly suspect in terms of offence! (Unless it was comparing Chick's article to my mum's knowledge of football)
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True enough, GoonerPetronius. I get a bad taste in my mouth whenever I participate in these discussions. But I carry on in the vain hope that my comments will tone down some people's negative opinions of Celtic. Maybe I'm overoptimistic...
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#27
And Scotland was a pagan country before any denominational Christianity arrived, so your point is null and void. Celtic, and Hibs to a lesser extent, are entirely responsible for introducing sectarianism and bigotry into Scottish football which never had any religious dimension whatsoever. To this day, Celtic are the only club up here who still carry that unwanted religious baggage. Thankfully, Rangers are above that sorry business.
#30
Rangers had Catholics in their team in 1885 before Celtic were even formed and there has never been a decade since where Catholics haven't been part of the club's success. Repeating laughable supposed anti-Catholic myths at Ibrox with no substance isn't recognised debate.
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#25. remarkable as you say.
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I find it entirely ironic that, after some initial criticism of Chic for focusing on the religious and social palsy that accompanies the Old Firm seemingly wherever they go, the general commentary on this blog does precisely that.
If any fan of Rangers or Celtic tries to deny that representatives (I intentionally use that term loosely) of their chosen club has at some time celebrated, revelled, or indeed capitalised on their sectarian rivalry with the other, they are kidding themselves. Poster #25 simply has to be on the wind-up; surely nobody could be so deluded. But the only true path to redemption for fans of both sides is to admit that their club has not been blameless in the perpetuation of their religiously based hatred of the other. Other clubs have rivalries, but few are as savage and give such potential for incitement to violence as that of the Old Firm.
As usual, the onus appears to be on blaming one another instead of constructively working towards a future when this sort of disgraceful bile is not tolerated by fans of either side. But, as ever, that part of the debate is hardly discussed. The club administrations have, to their credit, woken up and started to officially state that sectarian behaviour will not be tolerated; it's well time that the respective supports did the same en masse.
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# 38
Aaah,the hoary old myth that the Old Firm are two sides of the same "religious bigotry" coin is played out again. Rangers, unlike Celtic, or even Hibs for that matter, were not founded on any singular religious or sectarian identity. That is the crux of the matter which is deliberately overlooked when attempting to source the origins of sectarianism in Scottish football. Rangers did not play any part whatsoever in the introduction of religion or sectarianism into what was a secular sport in Victorian Scotland. Next you'll be saying that Celtic FC were " founded by the poor, for the poor ". That always raises a chuckle, granted.
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#39
Before I start, I would like to point out that I have no love for either of the top two, and certainly do not prefer one to the other. As MarkRP will confirm, I've contested the protected oligopoly operated by Celtic and Rangers, most usually with contempt for their whinging about a lack of local competition upon being bundled out of Europe when they have done more to weaken the talent pool of the top division than anyone else. This is a totally separate issue, of course; but I would prefer to state this first as any sort of criticism of either side of the Old Firm invariably leads to accusations of having sympathies or outright affection for the other.
It is actually of little consequence whether either team was founded upon religious principles. You have to look no further than Hibs or Dundee United for teams that, while founded upon religious principles, don't flaunt them so flagrantry as the Old Firm. These two sides both have strong cross-city rivals but, having attended derbies in Dundee and Edinburgh, abuse is of a more socio-economic and sexual nature as opposed to racial or sectarian. Also of note is that neither Dundee or Hearts were started out of protestantism. So what does it matter if Celtic were started by a benevolent priest; the issue is what they, and their main rival, have become.
Clearly, there was some sort of reaction to Celtic's formation, where none so strong existed elsewhere. Manchester City's formation was almost identical to that of Celtic's, but for the fact that the church elder involved was a protestant. Why then, didn't Manchester United - then Newton Heath - start wearing hoops and later develop songs directly related to the troubles in Ireland?
From these basic calculations, it can only be presumed that the religious posturing of the fans is in some way related to the behaviour of the clubs themselves. There are, of course, many other mooted reasons for the nature of the rivalry - mass immigration from Ireland being one - but discussing them endlessly here doesn't really solve the problem. What you should really be asking, dear #39, is what you and your brethren can do to fix it.
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#35/38, I agreed with you that Rangers weren't founded on sectarian principles. Neither were Celtic. Neither were Hibs. As PeleDuarte says, neither were Dundee Utd (formerly known as Dundee Hibernian). They were set up to benefit poor Irish Protestants as much as poor Irish Catholics. This is not "a hoary old myth". Ask any Scottish historian.
And I don't want to perpetrate an attack on Rangers' history (the club has made massive progress over the last 20 years: it was worth Souness nicking MoJo from under our noses for the long-term progress it kicked off), but your skewed attacks on Celtic and Hibs mean I've got to set the record straight. "Supposed anti-Catholic myths at Ibrox"? So how many Catholic Rangers players can you name between 1900 and 1980? Anyone to rival Protestants Jock Stein and Kenny Dalglish at Celtic?
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# 40
You miss the point, unsurprisingly,due to casually accepting myths handed down unquestioned through the years regarding the origins of sectarianism and bigotry in Scottish football. Celtic FC weren't formed in 1888 as some pious act of altruism or humanitarian gesture by a " benevolent priest" to assist the newly arrived poverty stricken Irish immigrants as often cited , but simply to prevent apostasy away from his flock's original particular religious denomination, which has been covered in few books regarding the Old Firm's origins. That the " newly arrived Irish immigrants" were already in Glasgow since the 1830's and 1840's, nearly 50 years before Celtic FC were formed, demolishes this myth of a cleric assisting newly arrived and destitute immigrants.
It is no doubt a romantic tale for those who don't " know the history", but a completely false and ludicrous one nevertheless. When Celtic FC then began to be used as vehicle for " political purposes", see Irish " politician" Michael Davitt and others,thus introducing sectarianism and politics into Scottish football where it never was before, there was naturally always going to be a reaction by those in Glasgow with opposing " political views"
Ergo, Celtic are entirely responsible for introducing what are known as the darker aspects to what is known as " Old Firm" rivalry.
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#42: Yes, how naive of everyone to casually accept established historical facts.
"There was naturally always going to be a reaction": So you think Rangers not employing Catholics for the bulk of their history is Celtic's fault? I've heard some ludicrous justification for the actions of a minority of Rangers fans somehow twisted to be blamed on Celtic before, but this takes the biscuit.
Do you really find it so inconceivable that a football club could be set up in 1888 to help people who have been around for a few decades? It would have been difficult to set up a football club in the 1840s. Yet this seems to be the basis of your destruction of Celtic's founding principles.
I'd be interested to know why you think you are more of an authority on this subject than Scottish historians. Are you 140 years old?
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Should be a good game, let's hope it's played in the right spirit. On a completely different note entirely, I reckon Chick should drag himself off to Stenhousemuir, but not to see Stenny. Look at where East Stirling are now, second in the table. For so long the laughing-stock of Scottish Football, The Shire look nailed-on for a play-off spot at least. How has this transformation been achieved? I think we have right to know. Over to you Chick.
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# 43
That's the point. Celtic, unlike Rangers, were founded not on sporting principles. The renowned sports historian Bill Murray , no not the actor, in his book The Old Firm which is available anywhere, has already demolished the myth that Celtic FC were formed " by the poor, for the poor " and as an act of charity. It is a yarn and nothing more.
You also keep regurgitating the other myth that Rangers had no Catholics at Ibrox for 90 years, which admittedly is a change from the usual 100 years, with no actual reference or evidence whatsoever.
What you should be asking is why Celtic FC allowed itself to be the vehicle for non-football purposes and in the process introducing sectarianism and a religious dimension to a secular Scottish sport which wasn't there before.
The simple question is was there any religious bigotry in Scottish football before Celtic arrived ? The answer is no. That is all we need to know.
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How did that break the house rules?
Any chance of an explaination??
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#46: Celtic have never discriminated against Protestants. Our greatest manager and possibly greatest player were both Protestant, as I stated before.
You say I have no evidence that Rangers discriminated against Catholics? Have I not already asked you to name Catholic Rangers players between 1900 and 1980? And what's this? Pages 68 and 69 of Bill Murray's The Old Firm discuss Rangers' "no Catholics policy". And it's confirmed in Terry Butcher's autobiography.
Would you like to point out where Murray says that Celtic were set up as a sectarian club? This is the point you made in post 25, which is what I disagreed with. I see post 25 has since been removed by the moderators.
The only non-football purpose at Celtic is the club's charitable foundation, which continues to this day.
And Celtic being responsible for religious bigotry because it didn't exist before they were set up? Do you also think West Indians who were attacked in racist riots in West London in the 1950s were responsible for those racist attacks because they didn't happen before they came here? Presumably not. Or do you think Celtic fans having Irish roots or an Irish identity in Scotland counts as provocation?
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#46
Nice try mate at denying Rangers baggage. I bet you can even name the Catholics who played for Rangers in a 90 year period - the problem is the handfull of names you can come up with rather proves Rangers had a "selective" signing policy. ;)
The other inconvenient fact for you is the recent sanctions taken against Rangers fans for some of the appalling songs they chose to sing - causing huge embarrassment to RFC in particular but also to Scotland in general.
Celtic aren't saints, but you trying to lay the blmae for 100 years of bigotry solely at Celtics door is mendacious to say the least.
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RFC,
You are more than welcome to bash on with this attitude of 'they started it' as it informs your writing far more than your historical knowledge and literary elegance. However, you continue to blind yourself to the possibility that Rangers FC and their fans are in any way responsible for sectarianism in Scottish football and the country as a whole.
I think if you read my posts, I absolve neither Rangers or Celtic of responsibility for the presence of religious bigotry in Scotland. What you are conveniently ignoring is Rangers role in this continuing debacle. By invoking Michael Davitt, you ignore the role of early Rangers president (and Glasgow Lord Provost) John Ure Primrose, widely acknowledged as a vocal anti-Catholic and the man who aligned Rangers FC to the masonic cause. He also recognised the capital value of football rivalry and shifted the foundations of your club to be diametrically opposed to their future rivals; a visionary, of sorts, but not in any good way.
Furthermore, I find it curious that you are trying to imply that Rangers' culture was defined by Celtic? Is that not even worse for a fan of the proud Bears to admit? That you wouldn't be the club you are today without them? Certainly, that's what Ure Primrose thought; maybe I don't give him enough credit.
And finally, to try and justify your position with:
"The simple question is was there any religious bigotry in Scottish football before Celtic arrived? The answer is no. That is all we need to know"
A completely vacuous and flaccid statement. In any rivalry or confrontation, you need at least two opposing forces. What you need to question is why, when Celtic made landfall, did Partick Thistle or Queens Park not mutate from clubs of similar stature to Rangers into the main opposition to the Parkhead behemoth?
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#49
Why would I even try to name Catholic Rangers players ? Bloggers reading this and unfamiliar with Scottish football must also be baffled by what is a repeatedly bizarre request. Individual Rangers players religious beliefs from 1872 onwards are an irrelevance to both club and fans as I have previously stated as Rangers weren't formed to promote any specific denomination, unlike other clubs. It is only Celtic supporters who have this frantic and never ending obsession with the particular religious credos of Rangers players, why is that ?
You are correct, however, in that some of the unsavoury " political songs" sung by a minority of Rangers supporters can be seen by some as offensive, but unfortunately every club has them, I suppose.
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# 51
You again miss the original point. Which club introduced a religious dimension into what was a secular Scottish sport in the West of Scotland and the reasons for doing so ? It is not a difficult question but one which nobody on here seems to want to answer for the obvious reasons.
Without it, none of any of the other contentious issues associated with the Old Firm can be addressed. It is strange, however, that you put forward the hypothesis that " Rangers culture", whatever that is within a club formed in 1872, could be already defined by another club who wouldn't be created until 16 years later in 1888 ? I know Victorian Britain was awash with spiritualiasm and other quackery but were Rangers indeed psychic ? Is this Back To The Future ?
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RFC
"Why would I even try to name Catholic Rangers players?"
Because if you were able to, it might provide some balance to your argument. Your point is that Celtic were created from religious origins and Rangers are blameless where sectarianism in Scottish football is concerned. If you were able to provide any evidence to the contrary that Rangers had a recruitment process which excluded people of a specific faith, this might support your assertion. However, as has been recorded above and elsewhere, such a policy existed, which makes Glasgow Rangers FC - for the period of that policy, at least - institutionally sectarian.
Your most recent post confirms that you absolutely, certainly must be on the wind-up:
"You are correct, however, in that some of the unsavoury " political songs" sung by a minority of Rangers supporters can be seen by some as offensive, but unfortunately every club has them, I suppose."
Seen by some?! I've heard some fairly unpleasant songs being sung at the football, songs that are racist and cringingly parochial; few, however, compare to that unpleasant little ditty still sung at Ibrox and beyond which graphically evokes wading through Catholic entrails. Don't insult my intelligence - not to mention your own - by trying to water down your support's failure to eradicate bigotry by trying to claim every club behaves similarly.
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I think Rangers will go with a 4-5-1 formation and play defensive counter attacking football. But who cares about the football eh?
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RFC,
"It is strange, however, that you put forward the hypothesis that " Rangers culture", whatever that is within a club formed in 1872, could be already defined by another club who wouldn't be created until 16 years later in 1888?"
You yourself stated that there was no sectarianism in Scottish football before Celtic arrived. There is now; so by definition, Rangers became embroiled within a religious rivalry as response to the birth of Celtic FC. Or are you now trying to deny that Rangers has any problem with sectarianism at all?
I think you're also being deliberately naive to say that, just because Celtic were formed by a catholic priest, they are responsible for introducing sectarianism into Scottish football. I, and others, have provided you examples in Dundee United, Hibs, and even Manchester City, of other clubs who were formed in similar circumstances that are not rife with the bigotry present with Celtic and Rangers. I really don't see what is so difficult to understand about what I've written; but then again, you seem to be in complete denial about Rangers' historic responsibility for sectarianism in Scottish football.
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Spot on Pele Duarte. And to Hibs, Dundee United and Manchester City you could also add Queens Park Rangers (originally the team of St Jude's Catholic Church in very Irish Kilburn, north-west London, and who originally played in green and white hoops).
And no club in London felt the need to define themselves as the opposite of them. They accepted that QPR had every right to their Irish/ Catholic identity and just get on with playing football against them. No-one in England criticises QPR for daring to be set up by a Catholic church in an Irish area. No-one else blames their own problems on them. And in case anyone thinks Glasgow and London are somehow different in this respect, please remember the "No Dogs, No Blacks, No Irish" posters of London in the 1950s.
Celtic also have every right to be set up with and to celebrate their Irish roots. To skew this as a form of sectarianism is to deny the right of self-expression enshrined in British law. With this right comes a responsibility to not provoke anyone with different roots: I admit this is a responsibility some Celtic fans have shirked, but I will accept no other criticism of Celtic on this topic.
I promise this is the last I'll say on the subject: Rangers had a sectarian signing policy for most of their history; Celtic never have.
For what it's worth RFC, I reckon you'll probably beat us at the weekend. We're mince.
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What do you think is the average mental age of a professional footballer?
Can it be measured?
Are they all prone to an attack of the cream puffs?
The managers are probably just as bad.
More should adopt the BOBo priciple and just take the money and start a hobby.
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This degenerate sectarian issue has to end. Perhaps if the media would stop drawing attention to it we would get progress. I wish journalists would focus more on the football and forget about the supporters singing and religious and political conflicts. Leave that to the politicians and the police. Start arresting those singing those ridiculous songs, from what team they purport to be supporting. Perhaps the large gang of police officers who get to see a free game at Ibrox every other Saturday could disperse amongst the crowds and start "lifting" these morons.
Then the rest of us can get back to the football, and what it's going to take to raise the standards of the SPL.
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It isn't difficult for most reading this blog to understand. Introducing the heady and often lethal cocktail of religion and politics into a purely secular and apolitical sport and then by default upon a nation riven with sectarian tensions, as Celtic did in 1888, could only condemn and taint the Scottish game forever with issues nothing to do with sporting principles and so it has proven.
I know Celtic supporters would like this to be an " Old Firm" issue and to drag Rangers into this to share the blame in some bizarre both sides are as bad as each other argument to assuage their sole responsibility, but no-one is interested. As I say, no religion or politics in Scottish football until Celtic introduce it, then the sport has deep problems ever since. Its not rocket science.
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RFC,
So you still maintain that bigotry in Scottish football is entirely due to Celtic do you? To paraphrase your arguement, you appear to be saying that the Rangers support harbours bigots because Celtic was started off by Catholics (I note you ignore other teams with similar roots).
The only problem for you is why the religious denomination of the founders of a football club would matter at all to open-minded, non-bigoted people.
PS Like FIFA, UEFA etc. I DON'T think "both sides are as bad as each other". ;)
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Rangers must take their fair share of responsibility for the sectarian bile that has been exchanged in the past. Celtic may have been founded by Irish immigrant Catholics, but it's grossly unfair to say that Celtic are to blame for all the problems in football since then, motivated by politics and religion. It's not as if Celtic were set up to be an all Catholic or all Irish club; there was no exclusion policy implemented. In fact, the official records state that the club was founded for the purpose "being to alleviate poverty in Glasgow's East End parishes". So, you can say that the setting up of the club was for charitable reasons.
Some of the chants of the Rangers fans are completely out of order, including the chants about the Pope, and the "Billy Boys" song that I don't think they sing anymore. Rangers fans are known to accuse Celtic fans of singing about the Irish situation, and such political songs are set to rile opposition fans and instigate reactions. However, Rangers fans themselves are prone to do the same, such as songs about Derry's walls, and the YCV. Again, the club have done a lot to improve the situation, but you cannot say it's only Celtic who indulge in singing politically motivated songs related to Ireland.
It's being a bit "head in the sand" to just lay everything on the doorstep of Celtic, and point the finger at them for instigating the whole sectarian problem in Scottish football. This sort of comment merely serves to provide reasons for the actions of the Rangers supporters who engage in such singing. There needs to be complete condemnation of any bigoted singing or action, rather than this "oh, but Celtic started all this" attitude. Everyone needs to take responsibility.
Even in the last game between the two clubs, you could hear unsavoury remarks being made at Scott Brown when he collided with McGregor and was receiving treatment. Therefore it is untrue to just blame Celtic for all the problems of fans' chanting.
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#62
I said Celtic introduced religion and politics into the secular and apolitical sport of football and thus by proxy into an already sectarian riven West Of Scotland, which is undeniable fact, and trouble has existed in the game ever since. What part of that statement is untrue ?
Now you can delude yourself that that never happened and invent as many fanciful, convoluted and self-pitying " victimhood" theories as you wish to excuse and attempt to justify Celtic for doing so, but undisputed historical truth says otherwise.
In essence, Rangers had no part in Celtic's sole irresponsibility, they never have and never will and why should they.? Also, open-minded and non-bigoted people back then, as of now, would indeed be concerned when needless sectarian hatred and violence becomes the norm in Scottish football when it never occurred before 1888. A strange coincidence, eh ?
Of course you are correct in saying UEFA don't see both sides are as bad as each other. Only one Glasgow club was banned by UEFA from playing a European tie on their own home ground due to violent behaviour from its supporters and it wasn't Rangers.
The thread is now degenerating into a meaningless tit-for-tat exercise. I'll leave other bloggers to make up their own minds as to the origins of religious aspect of the ld Firm and the its initial source.
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RFC;
"I'll leave other bloggers to make up their own minds as to the origins of religious aspect of the Old Firm and the its initial source."
Good. Because the issue is not about its initial source; indeed, I believe that you are only focussing on this to distract people from the issues that really matter. The weight of evidence is vastly against your seemingly indoctrinated viewpoint, with particular reference to QPR. Interestingly, as QPR were formed before Celtic, using your very odd strain of logic, it could be argued that they introduced a 'heady and often lethal cocktail of religion and politics into a purely secular and apolitical sport...[in] an already sectarian riven' North West London and/or United Kingdom. Still, nobody begrudges them this; so why did Rangers respond in the way they did?
You've also still not acknowledged the role of John Ure Primrose who harnessed the sectarian hatred already endemic in the club and took the size, magnitude, and nature of the club to a new level. But why should that matter, when Celtic started it first na na na na.
As I've stated before, the behaviour of Celtic and Rangers fans has appalled me in equal measures over the years, between pro-IRA chanting and the latest charmless serenade from Rangers fans, the famine song. So when people express concern about sectarianism in Scottish football, the question of who started it over a hundred years ago is of little consequence. In many ways, I wish Scotland were rid of the Old Firm, but that would only be obscuring a weeping sore which runs far deeper than just football; the roots of sectarianism, those that lie beneath the surface of either Parkhead or Ibrox, and run from Melrose to Lerwick, are what require excavation and destruction, not merely the most obvious and concentrated public manifestation of our social and sectarian shame.
As for the game, I don't think I'm alone in hoping you both lose on Sunday; but my greatest hope is that the game is an exciting advert for the cream of Scottish football, untouched by the grotesque carnival that has marked these occasions in the past.
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RFC,
I assume you are trying to wind people up on here, no sane person could possibly be quiteso deluded as you are.
Can you not see the irony that your obsession with Celtics religious roots might not portray you in the best of lights.
"Of course you are correct in saying UEFA don't see both sides are as bad as each other. Only one Glasgow club was banned by UEFA from playing a European tie on their own home ground due to violent behaviour from its supporters and it wasn't Rangers"
This is your best quote yet. Is this the worst sanction taken against a Scottish football team?
You need to open your mind old son, the Old Firm are two sides of the same coin. Both sets of support are responsible for unacceptable behaviour and a defence of "Ahm only a bigot cos yous started it" isn't good enough.
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RFC, "Only one Glasgow club was banned by UEFA from playing a European tie on their own home ground due to violent behaviour from its supporters and it wasn't Rangers"?
Who was banned from Europe for a season for rioting in the Nou Camp after winning the Cup Winners Cup? You know, when they had to be given the trophy inside because of the riot?
Yes, this is tit-for-tat, but, hey, you started it. Ironic?
It makes me sad to have to reach the conclusion that you clearly think Celtic daring to express their Irish/ Catholic roots is provocative and sectarian behaviour.
Thank God - on the basis of the lack of support for you on here - most Rangers fans don't agree with you.
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I remember when we used to discuss football on BBC sport.
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"How can any student of the Scottish game who pledges neutrality"
Hope Chick isn't referring to himself!
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Religion is make-belive. It is stories made up by people thousands of years ago that people today still believe and live theirs lives by!!
Football is real, it happens, we can all see it happening.
The two should never be mixed...... EVER!!!!
I am right by the way
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
BBC
Can you explain that I had a post removed from 606 because "The contents of this message may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC".
Yet in this article Chick Young has just referred to some Old Firm fans as "fruitcakes".
Was this allowed to be posted as it is also the view of the BBC?
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"Yet in this article Chick Young has just referred to some Old Firm fans as 'fruitcakes'."
I see no problems with this. Most sensible and accurate thing written by Chick Young in many a decade, to be honest.
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"excitement over quality"? more like economy-brand tedium over 120 minutes
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