An Atlantic League would sink SPL
There is hope out there. Nearly 100,000 souls paid to watch the Scottish Premier League at the weekend.
The box office boomed with a little help from the fact that a Saturday fell two days after Christmas but the appetite for the game is in clear contrast to the waning interest in turkey.
A sell-out at Pittodrie and not a "Calderwood-must-go" banner in sight. It's a changing world right enough.
Meanwhile, we need not delay the ladies and gentlemen who select the manager of the month award at all. Don't even take off your overcoats, just tick the box that says Gus MacPherson, St Mirren.
Four wins out of four will ensure that he picks up his second award of the season - that's two out of the five available so far - crushing to dust the insane mumblings by some fans of the club who want a change.
If he doesn't win then there can only be one other outcome. Robert Mugabe has done it again.
So everything in the garden is lovely then? Eh, no actually.
Walter Smith has suggested that it is time the Old Firm made a break for an Atlantic League, leaving their reserve teams behind to battle it out for domestic honour.
The new league - involving big clubs from small countries, like Ajax, Anderlecht, Porto, Benfica and Marseille alongside our own giants - is the way ahead, according to the manager of Rangers.
Of course, France is not a wee country at all, except in football terms, which is from where the Ibrox boss is really coming.
I see his point. Rangers and Celtic are floating in a different financial solar system from Manchester United, Barcelona, Bayern Munich and the other jolly giants of the European game.
Television rights here hardly pay the electricity bill far less the wage demands of the crown princes of the game.
And, having been hit by a custard pie from the English Premier League when the Old Firm tried to cuddle up with that lot, the Old Firm need to find new pals.
But, if the Old Firm abandons Scottish football for distant dreams, they will leave behind a game that will have its throat cut - and the tending of the patient by second string outfits will be of no salvation.
Where is the media attention to be focused? On Motherwell versus Rangers Reserves or Ajax versus the Ibrox side's first team. The death knell for the rest of the game will be sounded.
The problem may lie elsewhere. The satellite television channels are charging a Somalian pirate's ransom for their services. My local sports club has just abandoned their services after demands for an annual fee of in excess of £7,000.
We need to sell about 6,000 extra pints to justify that and, although me and a few of the boys have enjoyed a couple of Saturday nights when we have given it a right go, we couldn't get there with the help of Oliver Reed.
The bulk of that money is heading into the English game to satisfy the ridiculous wage demands of some players who can't struggle by on less than £100,000 a week.
Meanwhile, the club loses the action on the telly, turnover at the bar goes down and the kids are consequently left short of facilities.
And yet the SPL, as Saturday proved, still has huge appeal to people in this country.
The Old Firm self-preservation society will always demand that they gaze to distant horizons and it is true that the rest of the game do hang on - to a degree - to their coat-tails.
But the Uefa Cup is already changing its shape next season to accommodate more fixtures at European level and, personally, I have loved the game too long in its current shape in this country not to try and nail Rangers and Celtic to the floor.
As the manager of Rangers, Walter Smith may be right. But, for the rest of the game, he is the Grim Reaper.
Meanwhile, may I wish you all a healthy and content New Year. Including yourself Walter.
"Tell them who you are and what you are about," they said. To be honest, there are days when I struggle to remember myself. Forty years toiling at the coalface of football journalism does that to you. But I have reason to believe that I have reached the heady heights of the title of Football Correspondent of BBC Scotland which gives me a renown, in Scottish terms, of somewhere between Alex Salmond and the deep fried Mars Bar.
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~22~RS~)
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Seasonal greetings to you too Chico!!
And after what seems to be an age of disappointing "reads", I actually liked that blog, must be all that festive spirit currently circulating in my blood stream.
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Rangers and Celtic have controlled Scottish football for far too long and anything that gets rid of both of them can only be good for the rest of us. it will also be the best thing to happen for/ to them. As far as the average fan is concerned the Old Firm look at a player who can damage them then buy them up at bargain basement prices to warm the benches at Ibrox and Parkhead. None of the two of them care a toss about the state of football in scotland, only about the "my ball" attitude of their power.
A move to another league , atlantic or otherwise, will bring them down to earth with a bump and let them see what life is like at the sharp end. It will also give the rest of our teams more of a chance of keeping talented players which can only benefit the game here in the long run.
This is not merely a dig at the OF, I genuinely believe that they need something like this to make them more competitive on the European stage. Going from being a very big fish in a tiny pool to an average fish in a huge pond might just be the making of both of them.
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The Atlantic League would mean the end for Scottish Football. I can't imagine too many Hearts or Hibs fans going to Parkhead to see if their team can beat the might of Celtic Reserves. It would probably mean the European Co-effecient would go out the window aswell.
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I'd rather Celtic and Rangers were in the SPL properly or not at all. None of this Reserve team rubbish. That would be depriving two football clubs a place in the SPL and also two football clubs a place in the Scottish Football Leagues.
The problem is gloryhunting fans and Old-Firm obsessed media. This article appears to sit on the fence until the very end where you appear to be against the Old Firm leaving. Despite the points difference, I would say the likes of Dundee United, Aberdeen, Hibs and Hearts are the closest they have been to the Old Firm in years. If any of those sides can hang on to their best players for a few seasons in a row or get a decent cash injection, they could seriously threaten the Old Firm and make the SPL a more exciting league, therefore generating more revenue through media income, ticket sales, corporate hospitality, merchandise etc.
But does the West Coast Media and Mr. Chic Young want an East Coast side threatening the Old Firm Duopoly? Does the SPL and the SFA want it with the way they bend over backwards for the demands of the Old Firm?
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Well, something has to change, as the Scottish set up at present is dying season by season in comparison to other countries. Rangers and Celtic struggle to compete with teams from the likes of Greece and Austria these days when it comes to attracting players from abroad. I remember the late Tommy Burns saying years ago that the SPL would go to the same standard as the Irish league and he was absolutely right ... it's mediocre at best. If Scottish football is to improve or even survive, it needs to evolve. A start would be 2 leagues of 16 teams, with a feeder/pyramid system similar to the way the Nationwide Conference supplies the Football league. Otherwise let Celtic and Rangers do their own thing and let the others have a properly competitive league.
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AN ATLANTIC LEAGUE WOULD NOT BE A BAD IDEA CONSIDERING THE LIKES OF RANGERS, CELTIC AND LYON WHO DOMINATE THEIR DOMESTIC COMPETITIONS
IT WOULD BE FANTASTIC TO SEE AN ATLANTIC LEAGUE
BLESS..... KHALID
GLORY GLORY MAN UTD CHAMPS OF DA WORLD
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Refusing to allow Celtic and Rangers Reserves to play in the SPL would be cutting off our nose to spite our face.
The English might not like seeing Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool and United play their reserves in the Carling Cup but try telling Burnley they'd rather have reached the semis by beating Wigan's first team than Arsenal's second.
So don't be proud, be realistic, and relish the possibility of some genuine competition.
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there will be no atlantic league. rangers and celtic are based in scotland and there they shall stay. levein will make good on his ambition to take united to the title in the next couple of seasons and hopefully inverness can finish second and ensure the OF rake in a hell of a lot less money than normal and go bust, thus dispensing the television rights equally and the fans equally. I wish it were the early 80s again
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You know, an Atlantic League sounds good in theory but I don't really think it would be that great. It wouldn't have any prestige or history. The Scottish league is one of the oldest competitions in the world, whearas being champions of Scotland, Belgium and Portugal isn't actually that good and just sounds like a bit of a patchwork, mishmash compromise sort of title.
Why do the fans really care anyway about how much money the club has anyway? Supposedly its because they will be able to attract better players and have a better standard of football. But so what? I'm interested in watching Brazil play but when it comes to supporting your team its not about that, its about loyalty and backing your team to the last. Old Firm fans are Scottish, they're Scottish clubs, Scottish football is an important part of our culture: I don't see really what the gain is in abandoning it in favour of a second rate (compared to the English and Spanish leagues) competition with no history.
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Would the winner of the Atlantic League qualify for the Champions League? Would the SPL lose it?s European places? Would the winner of the SPL be promoted to this new league, would there be relegation from this league, if not what?s the incentive? Would any Scottish teams in this League still come under the SFA, and if not would FIFA not then have more ammo for scrapping the home nations in favour of a GB team?
The knock-on effects of this league would be far more than a loss of TV revenue. The SPL and the SFA need to get a grip of this nonsense; if The Old Firm don?t want to play in their own country anymore and are actively looking for alternative venues maybe they should be suspended for a season.
If your national league does not provided you with a big enough challenge, help to strengthen that league, don?t take your ball home.
On another note; I hope Gus doesn?t win manager of the month, it?s usually a poisoned challis, and as his next game after the award is our last at Love Street (and I?m travelling a long way to see it) it would be good to see the old ground of with a win.
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Once again it's greed, sheer greed from the Old Firm.
'we're too big for scotland, but we want to keep a side in any league we leave'
The OF as Scotland's representatives in europe have failed, England doesn't want them in their lucrative money spinner of a league (where only four teams have a chance - shh!), so the 'atlantic league' is disturbed from it's mid 90's grave by the old firm grave robbers.
This 'news' (or is it reheated 'olds') on top of the early season money grab by the old firm for 5% of income for tickets for their away supports, again robbing the 'diddy' 10 SPL clubs of revenue.
Money keeping coming into the old firm, they keep on squandering it. season after season.
Time to put up or shut up by the Glasgow Teams.
If you are going, then go and let the rest of scottish football get on with it. But do not expect support for keeping 'a reserve team in scotland'.
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In my opinion, The Old Firm will always have their own interests at heart and will always be looking for an opportunity for bigger and better things.
I still like the idea of the Old Firm playing in the English league/s. Why not field a Reserves side in England starting at the bottom and work their way up until they reach at least the Championship and then gun for the EPL?
Although I do agree with the argument that 'jockusa' has put forward and that is that this may compromise Scotland's place in all competitions incluing international ones.
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A disastrous idea. I can think of almost any alternative that would be better, ranging from something truly revolutionary like equal revenue sharing within leagues, or Champions League TV payouts equal by club rather than by the size of the domestic league; and/or at least a reform like a salary cap; or simply a kludge such as merging the Scottish and English leagues.
With a proper revenue sharing system and a salary cap, you can preserve every bit of tradition and you'd ultimately have a much more competitive product to offer fans that would bring in more overall revenue. It's just that the big boys would have to share a few toys in the short run.
And guess what. It has already been done. In the United States, no less. The National Football League already does exactly this, with the reforms fully coming into effect in the mid 1990s. And in the last 14 seasons, 11 different teams have won the Super Bowl. And the direct result is that the NFL has left every football league, even the EPL, in the dust when it comes to fan interest, revenue and attendances -- in part because teams with great traditions in the past who were becoming unable to compete (e.g. Green Bay, Pittsburgh) are no longer doomed to lose just because they're not from a major city.
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An atlantic league doesn't seem very practical to me. Scottish teams should be allowed to join the league of England and Wales. It's just common sense. It's a shame the will isn't there in the english premier league at the moment, but it should be aimed towards in the long term.
Geography should be the major factor. A Benelux league would make more sense to me, neighbouring leagues combining to become one stronger more attractive league. Portugal is next door to Spain, so it makes more sense to spice things up that way rather than completely undermining several of europes lesser leagues at a stroke.
Perhaps something along the lines of the old 3rd Division north and south they used to have in England. i.e. A British Premier League Divisions 1 and 2, with Division 3 England and Division 3 Scotland and so on. Something that would be a true meritocracy for all british teams, so all scottish teams could potentially benefit not just the old firm. I'm sure the teams in Dundee, Edinburgh, Aberdeen as well as Glasgow would fancy a crack at that! What scottish fan wouldn't mind seeing there team in an away day at Anfield, Old Trafford, The Emirates, St. James Park. Vice Versa what english fan wouldn't fancy an away day at Ibrox or Celtic Park.
OK so I'm english, but in the 25 years I've been following football the scottish league has never had much credibility (2 strong teams and 10 also rans year after year).
Hoefully money won't reign supreme (which is ironic as this idea would make plenty) and a British League can be formed which would be more entertaining and attractive for the public than what we have either side of the border at the moment.
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An Atlantic League could quite possibly be the best thing to happen to the SPL in its history.
At the moment, it is arguably the least competitive league in Europe, in that - face it - no team outside the big two stands even a snowball's chance of winning the title.
An Atlantic league would have the following benefits for Scotland:
1) Greatly increased competition in the SPL, due to Celtic and Rangers having to split their playing resources between two separate leagues. Suddenly, it would be come a 12-team league that 5 or 6 teams could realistically win.
2) Increased attendances at games, due to a larger number of teams being in genuine competition for the honours.
3) Greater success for Celtic and Rangers in Europe, due to their first teams playing a higher quality of opposition on a weekly basis.
4) Increased success for the national team, as the Rangers and Celtic players honed their skills against top quality opposition on a weekly basis.
I think that to suggest that the Atlantic League would be bad for the SPL is actually an insult to the other SPL clubs, as it implies that the league would no longer be of interest without the first teams of the Big Two, and that the other teams would be unable to mount a meaningful challenge against their reserve sides.
No need to fear the future - let's embrace it and move forward into a Golden Age of Scottish football.
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An Atlantic League would not only spell the end of Scottish football but also the Portuguese, France, Dutch and any other league that is invited.
Any league without the best teams becomes farcical. Porto and Lyon have shown that it's not the league that is the big issue here. It's the fact that the Premiership, La Liga and Serie A have far too much money be it from the media or anywhere.
When will UEFA put out plans to restrict wages and stupid money in the big leagues? I know people will say the clubs have all the power but the fans should support a proposal for the sake of levelling things out. The Real Madrids and Milans will always attract the best players but it gives teams a more level playing field.
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The basic problem in Scotland is that too many people don't support their local teams and instead follow one half of the Old Firm for reasons of outmoded religious prejudice. If this didn't happen we might have a competitive league and we wouldn't have two giants who understandably want to move to a bigger and more lucrative arena. Like Chick I hope this doesn't happen, but if it does, then I will blame every Old Firm fan in every provincial town in Scotland.
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They should be looking to strengthen the Scottish premier league than to weaken it. Oh and Chic? France won the world cup! Not bad for a small country!
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If Celtic and Rangers want to join an 'atlantic league' then fair enough. They should not be able to enter reserve teams in the SPL/Premier League/Whatever the revised top division in Scotland is called.
A Scottish top division without the Old Firm would at least result in different teams winning it.
The main reasons that the SPL is such a joke league, are, in no particular order:
1. The football on display is gash. To the pundits, this equates to poor technical ability (See Jim Traynor's column in yesterdays record). Rangers and Celtic are supposedly good teams but they are poor to watch.
2. Only Celtic or Rangers ever win it and the rest are so far behind it's not funny.
3. The people running the football clubs and the SPL are poor to average businessmen and there is a 'it's not what you know, it's who you know' culture. This runs from the boardroom, through managers, to players.
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Comment No.17 is another reason the SPL is rubbish.
Nowadays, I would imagine that quite a few of the Old Firms fanbase support those clubs because they are glory hunters, rather than religious bigots, but the point still stands.
What attachment does a football fan from Inverness, Peterhead, Stranraer, Kirkcaldy, etc. have to a Glasgow team?
Surely they should move on to better teams if they want glory, like Man Utd. and Chelsea.
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I think in the long term an SPL without the bigot firm would get stronger not weaker, but the question is would it survive at a reasonable standard in order to get there?
A league that any 1 from about 6 teams could win would be more competitive and would draw in more fans from the smaller clubs. As an Aberdeen fan I am sure more people would go to pittodrie if we had a realistic chance of winning the league and clubs on a yearly basis. The media money would drop of initially and the question is would it return. I think it would, but maybe not to the level that it is at the moment. Would this be off-set by increased attendances, merchandise, money from European competition, again maybe and without a crystal ball, impossible to say.
The question of European qualification would also have to be answered. Scotland would lose its co-efficient and would retreat down to the standard 1 champs league qual place and two Uefa places. On current evidence the teams left would struggle to make the group stages of either and it a sharp downward spiral into a lower qualification round, chance of going out and it keeps on repeating.
I would not be in favour of the winners going into the ?Atlantic? league. Winning the SPL should be the goal and Europe comes from that. If it is a feeder, it will devalue the league ever more. The Atlantic league could just be another league with its own qualification rights for Europe.
As for the bigot firm having reserves in the re-modelled spl. You can go and taking a running jump. Either you leave or you don?t, you cannot have it both ways. They have wreaked Scottish football for long enough and if they get their to leave, the rest of us should pack their bags and pay for the ticket out.
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I guarantee it will never happen.
Walter can away and bile his heed!
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The new league - involving big clubs from small countries, like Ajax, Anderlecht, Porto, Benfica and Marseille alongside our own giants - is the way ahead, according to the manager of Rangers.
The Atlantic league needn't be the death knell of anything if it's done right.
It should not be a breakaway league, that really would bring problems, instead think og it as a second champions league.
The league would include three teams from Scotland and Belgium, with four from the Netherlands and Portugal (Can't see France being involved, they have a one team dominated league but that is not due to lack of resource like the others as there are other big clubs there and a population to support a decent top division), this 14 team league would play out over a 26 game season as you would expect. At the same time the national leagues from each of those countries would play out WITHOUT the teams involved int he Atlantic league. This season would end around February/March.
Then the top three or four teams from the national leagues would combine with their nations representatives int he Atlantic leagues to play another competition, this would decide who gets to play in the Atlantic league the next year.
In this manner Celtic, Rangers and Motherwell would play in this year's Atlantic league, they would then play in a mini league with the top 3 from the scottish league (for example Aberdeen, Dundee Utd and Hiberniean) in a six team mini-league to decide which three take part next year. It would also decide Champions League/Uefa cup places.
The Scottish cup would still have it's UEFA place and the atlantic teams would still compete in it.
This would firstly allow the better clubs to play a better more competetive league as both the Atlantic and minileague competitions would be of higher standard than the current SPL. It would secondly allow the SPL left behind to actually be competitive for once. It would thirdly not preclude any club from eventually making it to the top league if they are good enough. It would also probably allow for the expansion of the remaining SPL to 16 or 18 teams as the disparagy from top to bottom would not be so wide, meaning you can get rid of the ridiculous 4-times-a-season fixture idea.
Frankly the only down sides I can honestly think of is that the lower APL teams wont get their free pay day of a Rangers or Celtic visit 4 times a season and that the league would be "less presitgious", however with the league being a joke at the moment I'm not sure how that would be possible.
There would be no need for changes in UEFA coefficients, national teams, national FAs or anything else.
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As TheExistentialist and others have noted, there are a few pointers towards what's wrong with the Scottish game.
An Atlantic league would be a terrible idea as originally floated by Walter. As an end of season championship, though, it could be a tonic for our game.
We must first reduce the number of normal season games to within UEFA's guidelines - a 16 team league would give us 30 games.
Unfortunately the stumbling block here is point 3 in post 19 - SPL teams outside the Glasgow two don't want to give up their 6 to 8 money spinning fixtures every year against the Glasgow two.
While it's heartening to see Aberdeen fans turn out in numbers against Hearts, we need much more competition in the SPL. Hopefully Aberdeen, Dundee Utd, & Hearts can continue to provide a product that will bring in the fans, the cash, and further competition.
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Looking at those top teams in the Atlantic League Rangers and Celtic would come bottom
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Fully agree with #17 and #20. I was born and grew up in Glasgow and (almost inevitably!) supported one half of the OF, but when I moved to Lanarkshire I decided I should support my local team, and have done so for the last 30+ years. During that time, every home match day I would pass coaches going in the opposite direction towards Glasgow.
I don't believe losing the OF would be the death of Scottish football. Division One for years has been highly competitive, and while the football may not be of the same standard, in any season there are four of five teams with a genuine chance of winning it. Losing the OF would create that degree of competition in the SPL.
And anyway, do the OF fans really want to see their team getting stuffed every match in an Atlantic League? Going by that game on Saturday, that's what would happen...
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An Atlantic League would make more sense as part of a broader re-organization of European club football.
http://footballinsights.wordpress.com/2008/12/30/atlantic-league/
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Good post Chico
The problems with the scottish league is that it is not an attractive proposition for most top quality players.
Players like Larsson and Petrov both stated that they wanted to leave Celtic because they couldn't face playing so many games against the same players all the time.
Rather than the Old Firm leaving the league, they need to look at ways of improving the 'product', which to me means;
2 leagues of 16 teams
A proper structure that includes promotion and relegation from the league involving smaller teams who have been relegated out competing against junior teams.
2 teams promoted and relegated every season from both leagues.
This would give every team something to play for throughout the whole season.
It would also encourage investment in smaller teams because you could have the chance to be playing at Ibrox and Parkhead within two years of a team joining the league.
The Old Firm would have the chance to develop their youth players against the 'smaller' teams in the top division.
It is time somebody involved at the SPL/SFA/Scottish League started actually looking at ways of running the game properly, without all of the self preservation that is clearly holding it back.
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Walter Smith (and the media that hang on his every word) still thinks he is some sort of Godfather of the game... well, this latest story (an old one at that) proves how little he knows.
According to Smith, "[the fact that poor old Rangers and Celtic don't have as much money as Manchester United and Real Madrid is] the biggest problem in European football at the moment and it impacts on us at Rangers and Celtic."
Really? So dwindling crowds at domestic cup games, ordinary fans being priced out of attending, sectarianism (in Scotland) and racism (in Eastern Europe), TV companies changing kick-off times with no regard for the fans, the "Champions" League being made up of teams who didn't win their league, poor attendances at UEFA Cup games, astronomical wages, foreign ownership of local teams, teams going bust, teams building all-seater stadia for no good reason and the lack of home-grown young players are all less important than the Old Infirm getting a few extra Euros in their coffers? Is it any wonder this single-minded, mind-thy-self attitude makes non-Old Firm fans sick.
Just go, Walter. See how you like playing Vitoria Setubal at 8:15pm on a Saturday night in Portgual in front of a half-empty ground and a few thousand subscribers to Atlantic League TV. See how many fans keep going to games where there is no local rivalry like there is against Aberdeen, Hearts and Hibs. See how it feels to be mid table with no hope of winning the league in March then look to full grounds at Tynecastle, Pittordie, Tannadice, Easter Road, East End Park, Dens Park and Fir Park as the SPL title race takes another twist. Don't close the door on the way out and take the bigotted fans and glory hunters with you. I'm sure Hearts and Dundee United will do just fine in the Champions League qualifiers. Probably wouldn't lose to Kanuas or Artmedia, anyway.
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Atlantic L...zzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Come one Chick, its 2009 next week! I thought this was one from the archives...
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Has anyone considered that if this Atlantic league was actually set up, how many people could actually afford the 15-20 return flights per year all around Europe, the hotels and spending money, not to mention potentially time off work for midweek games, cup games etc.
Yes it sounds great, the 'best' from each 'small' country playing together in one great big happy and competitive league, but I do believe Chico makes a good point when he suggests that media attention would be further drawn away from the SPL, leaving it slowly to reduce in quality before pulling the plug.
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what seems to be neglected in all these comments is how are fans going to get to all these away games?
Away in Copenhagen on Saturday, home in Glasgow on Wednesday, away in Lisbon on Saturday and away in Zurich? (perhaps) the following Wednesday. I don't think you're going to be getting too many away fans at the games.
Actually thinking about it, maybe it would give more fans a chance to go, if they were to only go to one or two away games a season it would free up tickets. But then that punishes the people who want to go every week but could no longer afford it.
I think all this discussion is irreleveant anyway because there is absolutely no chance of it ever happening. File it with the EPL 39th game, the OF playing in the EPL and the "Europe Elite League".
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Any talk of a new league that would have to turn a blind eye to the obscene bigotry of the so called 'old firm' is an insult to all fair minded football supoorters, there is simply no place for this kind of hatred in the game and I will be pleased to observe the continual demise of the Scottish game until the Scotch address their acceptance of a vile brand of religious bigotry
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This could be interesting. After being ignored by every other league they tried to joing, the OF decide to go for the illustrious Atlantic League. now all due respect to Porto, Marseilles etc, I would have thought, financially wise, the OF would prefer to play Man Unt, AC Milan et-al.
But what happens when/if the *reserve* team wins the SPL? Surely they would then be allowed to enter the European Cup proper, (after all it is the national league), so then who plays in that? Do you seriously think the OF would play their *reserve teams*. So the *big* team would then play in the proper European comp and the *reserve* team would then play in the Atlantic league. I sincerely hope that UEFA will see through this devious plot!!!!
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I gotta say the old firm are getting a rough ride here . I think other teams such as Aberdeeen , Hearts , and Dundee United should be be taking a good look at themselves.
As has been pointed out the OF a no where near as good as they were in the late 90s and early 00s but yet there is still no challenge form any of these teams
,there stadiums are a joke - not atmospheric and do not provide protection from the weather.
And go on stop saying all old firm fans are all bigots and hate each other , its not true !
well no more than man u v liverpool , newcastle v sunderland , spurs v arsenal or ajax feyernood anyway!
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Agree with final paragraph of #29 - how much interest would the OF be able to sustain if they weren't winning (nearly) every week?
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If Rangers and Celtic left the SPL it would truly be the final nail in it's coffin. TV and other Media rights would be worth as much as those of the Welsh and Northern Irish leagues. The SPL would lose it's European places (if there was an Atlantic league made up of 16 teams who normally qualify for the champions league do you think that they would be happy if only the top 8 qualifyied for the Champions league/UEFA cup? no they'll take their European places with them)
As for the completely barmy post about the creation of a British League!!! blooming hell we can't even get 16 lads together for a British Olympic Football team. If we had a British League it would be bye bye England, Scotland, Wales hello Team Britain at the world cup.
Unfortunatly Celtic and Rangers are two teams in Scotland they should play in scotland and as a previous poster said "share the wealth" if they want better competion, and stop buying any top quality players other teams produce just to stop them playing against them "yeah, it's always been my dream to sit on the bench for Celtic"
2 main leagues in Scotland not playing each other 4 times a season with a good share of the TV money. The Champions League needs sorting to be just the champions to readjust the balance in all the major leagues in europe. But untill it does what about adopting a system similar to that in Holland, top team qualifies for the Champions League and the teams finishing 2nd-5th play a play-off to see who gets the final Champions League place. makes the league a little more exciting and gives some of the other teams a realistic chance of qualifying for the CL and getting a share of the money. Plus opens up the chance for the likes of Hibs, Hearts, Motherwell etc... to be signing some top players because of the realistic chance of some Champions League Football.
Sorry to go on so long but I Feel the Football Fans in Scotland deserve a league that they can be proud of again.
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#38 has some good points but seems to be saying celtic need to get worse to make the league more exciting ! which it would yeah but then, will there be any point of entrying the champions league ?
at the moment celtic have to play out of their skin to win at home and can do nothing away from it . im scared to think what would happen to a worse celtic , motherwell or dundee united team in the champions league . really would their be any point ?
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Personally I would be quite happy if the old firm opt to play in another league. The initial years would be difficult but we could then look to build a structure that benefits the whole game in Scotland rather than feed the big 2.
I feel competition would increase which would lead to higher attendances and the quality of play would also increase as clubs as less likely to be content with simply making up the numbers.
Those glory hunting old firm fans may well still travel from all over Scotland but they will be more inclined to support a local team when they see Rangers and Celtic sitting mid to bottom of an Atlantic league and paying £50 a ticket for the privalidge.
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I'm a celtic fan who lives in Hamilton. I have a season ticket and go to every game.
I take offence to jockgreenleaf suggesting that i have to support Hamilton because i live there and it would my fault if the league gets worse. I support Celtic because my Dad does and would expect my own children to follow suit when they are old enough to come with me. Why do people have a problem with this?
And JCsRedArmy, why tar all celtic or rangers (i hate the name 'old firm') fans with the same brush, The bigot firm? There are a small minority of fans guilty of sectarianism etc. I have to accept this because i cant personally do anything about it. There are the same type of fans at every club. I seem to remember motherwell fans chanting monkey noises at a black player last season. Do you refer to their fans as the racist well?
It seems that the majority of these posts arise from a form of jealousy. Jealous that their club is just not in the same bracket as Celtic or rangers.
I believe that if there was an 'atlantic' league or something similar and there was 3 or 4 postitions available from Scotland, there would be a fight to see which 2 would escape the SPhell with them.
If you say NO then you're kidding youselves on!!!
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I wrote to the SPL chairmen back in September 2006 making proposals that would help ALL of the SPL teams and I do know that they received these proposals as I also have their replies.
The proposal was for European Mini leagues details of which you can see here:
http://www.ratingsworld.co.uk/EML/European-Mini-League-1.aspx
Given these facts:
1. Scottish football cannot compete against the English Premiership and their revenue streams (£50M per year TV money alone).
2. The TV deal with Setanta does not give full value to Rangers and Celtic, These teams alone are worth in one year, what Lex Gold got for the SPL over 3 years.
3. Uefa would look more kindly on a meritocracy where every team was elegible and not just a few.
4. Running two separate teams in different leagues is a nonsense.
5. There was NEVER any chance of Rangers and Celtic being admitted to the English Leagues.
The SPL chairman have been caught napping to say the least.
I think that their failure is similar in proportions to these moronic bankers who failed to notice have far over the precipice they had fallen.
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What a load of drivel once more. Time the Beeb changed it's pundits and we had some fresh faces and ideas - that doesn't just apply to Chick either.
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Ref #40
What exactly do you mean by 'feed' the Old Firm? All of the other SPL clubs feed off Celtic and Rangers , you exist because of the revenue brought in by the away fans.
Time to wake up and smell the coffee.
As for the Atlantic league , nice thought but a no goer, 2 teams means playing a home game every week , the pitch would be a quagmire by the middle of December , see Fir Park.
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Never mind Scottish football dying if the Old Firm leave; Scottish Football is already dead. The average standard of play equates to that of the English league one and there is absolutely zero competition as the Old Firm battle to win top spot and accept the consolation prize of second place if they lose out against their rival. This is a dire state of affairs as all other Scottish teams can only hope for a lucky cup victory to secure silverware and its embarassing for Scottish Football in general when one of the top sides has five stars across their badge to celebrate 50 league championships as if to highlight the total lack of competition in the country.
Never mind the supposed Atlantic league, it will never happen. We need to focus on building a sustainable league structure with two 16 team divisions where teams can focus on consolidation and development in the league as opposed to the usual bun fight to avoid relegation. Now, several commentators have stated that many Scottish clubs can only survive with 4 visits from the Old Firm to bolster the coffers. This is not a sustainable league, these sides need to consolidate which will mean the loss of many clubs but result in a stronger league overall. Afterall, England has 90ish league sides and a population of 50m whereas we have 40ish sides and a 5m population. The current structure is not condusive to competition and too much time is wasted fantisising about an Atlantic League, lets focus our time on what we can change to improve our game for all of Scottish football.
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Tester
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Not sure if an Atlantic League should include France seeing as its the 5th best league in Europe.
But I do think it's the best idea for all concerned
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Good blog - not the usual doom and gloom. However, not a great blog because as per usual you did not dwell on the depressing attempts that Rangers made to chink the Celtic armour once the Champions went a goal ahead!
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Sadly for Scotland, the majority of the wealth is based around the media centre of Glasgow. If the Old Firm, there goes the media attention and financial backing to the SPL. Without this money, the SPL will dramatically drop in standards.
We need to revamp the Scottish leagues and provide better competition, rather than bicker about the Big Two.
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Oh, and good blog this week Chick. Happy New Year all.
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Smoke and mirrors again.
Rangers need more than a wave the magic wand that'll take them into some fairytale Atlantic League and out of their current predicament. Don't you fancy blogging about that Chico?
Escape from the SPL for the Old Firm isn't going to happen anytime soon so they'll need to content themselves with vying for that CL place each season.
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Some interesting debate, for a change! To reply to some points:
#36, [demd79] asks why other teams don't challenge - well as soon as any team looks like challenging, the two clubs buy all the best talent! They have done it for years (Dodds, Cannigia, Hartley, MacDonald, etc) and will always do it. They get so much from CL money that they can afford it. I have to laugh at the comment about stadia too - Celtic stick away fans in an area with poles so you can't see half the pitch and Rangers don't have any provision for disabled away fans (not that it ever gets reported) and make them sit in the home end where they have been verbally abused and spat on. You also don't need to pay a wee ned a fiver to watch your car in Aberdeen or Dundee!
#41, [Chodi36] claims that the smaller clubs are jealous of the Old Firm... but surely the point of Walter Smith's comments is that Rangers (and by association, Celtic) are jealous of Manchester United, Barcelona et al? You can't have it both ways!
#44, [ScotInYourTV] trots out the same old myth about the other clubs getting money from Old Firm teams visiting their grounds. Well if you go to these games you'lll soon find that the Old Firm don't fill the grounds any more, that policing and stewarding costs go up lots and that local derbies (Dundee derby, Edinburgh derby, heck even Raith v Dunfermline) bring in crowds equivalent to or greater than one of the Old Firm visiting. A top league of 16 or 18 might help in this regard as people are liklier to go to one game at, say Falkirk, than two per season and so the crowds would be back to being capacity.
Still, a decent debate and something to think about. Happy New Year when it arrives folks.
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I would contend the point that the top end of Scottish football isn't competitive. In three of the last 5 seasons the SPL has gone down to the last day of the season. Who could say that Celtic's comeback last season or Scott Macdonald's two late goals for Motherwell to win the championship for Rangers wasn't exciting? At least we have two teams vying for the championship unlike some other leagues such as Norway and France who are effectively football monopolies for Rosenborg and Lyon respectively.
As for this half-baked Atlantic League, the idea seems unworkable and will never happen. The different countries aren't likely to agree on a suitable format and as has been mentioned what exactly would the incentive be for the clubs if there is no relegation?
The SPL would almost certainly lose a lot of it's prestige and money with the loss of Celtic and Rangers. Almost all of Setanta's live games involve the OF and I can't imagine there being a long queue of big sponsors lined up for a league without the two giants.However, it would make the league more competitive.
As a fan of one of the 'Also-rans' in the SPL I would like to see my team play in a league without the OF even if that means there is less money for the club. I really wouldn't care if the SPL regresses to a lower level of play and attracts poorer quality players. I don't care if the league is the same level as English League 1 football -we are only a wee country, we do well as it is to have two clubs who can compete on the European stage! Football isn't about money it's about competition and supporting your team. There seems to be two much emphasis on the prestige Scotland would lose without the OF as if it is the end of the world, life would go on.
Let Celtic and Rangers leave, I'd happily cheer them on in the Atlantic League, and let the rest of us be diddy teams, not that we aren't already, but have a better time about it!
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#52 Some laughable points there!
Restricted view seating exists at most stadia for both home and away support, especially at clubs outwith the Old Firm.
I dare say your own club "sticks" fans of the Old Firm clubs in an area of your ground with restricted view seats, and increases ticket prices for the pleasure.
At some SPL grounds around Scotland clubs charge Old Firm fans prices equivalent to Champions League matches.
To suggest that your local derbies bring more support than a visit from the Old Firm is nonsense. If fans of clubs outwith the Old Firm who attend cup finals and semi-finals were to attend league games on a regular basis, then perhaps your club would not have to rely so heavily on the support of the Old Firm
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There is no doubt scottish football needs to reinvent itself in some way, and make the competitive element stronger. 100 years of virtual duopoly isnt exactly entertaining for anyone outside the 2 clubs. Rather than the big 2 leaving however, why dont we look to the possibility of adopting the american draft system at least where the transfer of local lower league players is concerned.
On the specific subject of the old firm leaving the league, please explain to me what the reward will be for winning the competition - cause if its european football, does anyone seriously expect Rangers and Celtic not to temporarily strengthen the "reserve" outfits to pip everyone else at the post.
Supporters of Rangers and Celtic should be carefull of what they wish for - they might get it.
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Southpar. I agree with what you're saying about Man U, Barca etc but I can honestly say that I don't resent them for being a bigger and better team than Celtic. They play at a better standard than we do in Scotland and that's very evident.
The thing that annoys me on here is that a lot of people have a massive resentment towards Celtic & rangers for one reason or another (Jealousy, Supporters actions, Money, Signings etc...).
Reading through the posts above, there are only a few that dont slag off one of the teams or both.
As i mentioned, these same people would probably jump at the chance of being thought of on the same level as the teams they constantly berate.
This is not a new subject, it's been raised before and will be raised again. Until such times as they actually move leagues then nobody knows what is going to happen.
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If the old firm want to play in an "Atlantic league" then so be it but the chances of coming to reality are fairly slim.
I am not adverse to them leaving but the answer in my book would be to do what we can to make our own league more competitive. Perhaps an SPL 1&2 containing 16 teams in each. The likes of Dundee, St J, Dunfermline , Livingstone all have the ground facilities to come up to the top league. Those outside the top 32 should fall into a conference style system.
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The SFA and SPL need to have a sit down to discuss how the league and its financial rewards can be shared. (In the way the NBA draft pick new players for example). Glasgow contains the population of nearly half of the whole country so its no surprise the two clubs are able to generate more capital, more fans equal more money. There isnt the demographic in scotland to support a more competitive league without changing the way the league works. Getting rid of two teams isnt the answer. A BIG change in the league structure is the only way; not shuffling the tables and team numbers around and it should also include playing in the summer too.
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Go and go quickly!
I wonder how long European sides / authorities will tolerate the famine song and the like every week. There will be no protection and scotlands shame will be exposed.
I wonder how long the glory hunters and the red hand wavers will continue to support them when their team is getting shafted by Norways finest and they are punished for singing offensive songs.
I wonder how long it will take the media lap-dogs to fill our papers with "euro refs hate us" when old firm lose their refereeing protection.
p.s. chic i await your comments regarding the latest farce to make our game a laughing stock i.e. Mr Brines failure to admit his mistake and see what the rest of the country saw at pittrodrie. When someone quite obviously has another agenda when given a chance to rectify his errors, their mistakes are no longer human error. As much as you hate to hear it, their integrity must be called into question. Yes, Chic he is cheating which the sfa would love to eradicate, yes? no? or just lithuanian cheating.
Farewell to bad rubbish. Support for other SPL teams will grow when competition returns and the cancerous 2 are removed - bring on those happy days.
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In reply to comment 38, a british league doesn't necessarily mean a british team in the world cup and no national sides. At present it is the League of England and Wales, but the english and welsh national teams haven't had to combine (it would have been nice we could have had Ryan Giggs on the left for the last 15 years and actually looked like a balanced side!). So scotland wouldn't have to lose their national side at all. Why not have cross border leagues whilst retaining the national sides if it improves things!
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Here We Go Again!
Is It Not Funny Than Whenever One Of The Old Firm Aren't Winning All The Time Then This Smoke Stream Is Sent Up To Distract Thier Own Fans.
Walter Smith Is Living On A Different Planet If He Thinks UEFA Are Slightly Interested In Such A League When They Have The Champions League And The New UEFA League.Nor Would Lyon Or Porto Give Up Their Revenue Stream From Qualifying For The Champions League Every Year.Would They Still Make £20 Million From An Atlantic League?
What Walter Is Really Doing Is Making Excuses For Some Poor Signings.£3 Million For Kyle Lafferty!And What About The Much Heralded Murray Park?Where Is All The Youth Talent That That Was Going To Produce!
Any Non Old Firm Fan Would Be Glad To See The Back Of Them,but Unfortunately Your Fairytale League Just Won't Happen
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Am I living in a parallel universe here. Who cares about an Atlantic league? Why not an Auld alliance league, a Gaelic League etc.
As a Celtic supporter I have become totally sickened of how the SPL has rolled over and played dead to the OF - ridiculous player wages - and hence mad ticket prices, mad costs of tv coverage, mad costs of replica shirts etc.
It's time Scottish football looked to itself and decided what it wants to be - a support system for the OF or a dynamic league costed and structured to the levels of monies within the Scottish nation.
Radical surgery is needed - I crave a competitive league - local players - wanting to go to games that are competitive. Forget Europe - who really cares about the odd good game in Europe - maybe one a year if we are lucky.
The SFA needs to get real - set out a vision for the Scottish League that results in a competitive league - probably of 12-14 teams - not other major leagues - all other teams go into seconday league - oh we have one its called junior football.
Ban foreign players - let the current ones see out their time with current clubs - but no new work permits or more than two foreign players in any team at one time. Divide all external monies more equally between the 12-14 teams - including tv monies.
Celtic and Rangers would have to re-shape to suit this new economic climate - their crowds would fall - but others would rise.
Managers could constuct sides to who play to win - as they would have more hope of actually winning.
In the short term this pain - it would be huge - no real Europe football - no interest from foreign second-rate players - takes time to create the new sets of local players - but ultimately we would create a league that is competitive, interesting and provide long-term support for the game.
Without this type of surgery - the game here is dying a slow painful death - with more low-rate foreign players plying their trade in our league.
This is not some sort of covered rant against players from outside Scotland - its more a cry from the heart that we create a football structure that suits the size of nation we are - and suits a vision of how we want our football to be.
Last point - when France won the world cup - five years previous limited foreign players in each club and manadted a certain number of under-21 players in each first team. Takes a number of years but they produced a low-cost world sup squad who more or less all plied their trade in France - but then went off around Europe to earn a fortune - why can't we be brave with such a vision.
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greatestdons83.
In your post, you slag the life out rangers, their manager, a player of theirs and their training ground?
Why then, did you feel the need to involve Celtic at the end saying any "non old firm fan would be glad tro see the back of them"
Reading between the lines, this is basically a way of you slagging off rangers and chucking a wee mention of Celtic in there just so it looks like you are actually talking about the topic. What you are saying has nothing to do with Celtic as none of the stuff you mention has come from anyone at the club.
This is a great example of what i meant when i said there is so much resentment against one or both of the glasgow teams. People are blinded by it and constantly lump both together.
They need to accept that they are two different clubs, when one says or does something, it does not mean that the other supports or agrees with it or has anything to do with the comment, statement, action, movement or whatever the rest of Scotland feels like complaining about.
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As many have mentioned the only real way the whole of scottish football can be would be for there to be some kind of british league.
Its certainly the best idea, the OF can compete with most EPL teams and after a couple of seasons surely they could cement their position as two great british teams instead of the 'best of a bad bunch' at the moment.
The rest of the top six could probably cut it in the championship again, certainly after some of the money starts coming their way. As for the rest of the SPL tems it would at least give them an opportunity.
And finally and most importantly how exciting would it be?????
mighty exciting if tou ask me.
your thoughts please guy especially if you can see any flaws in my plans.
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Chick, you're absolutely right. There is no way that the old firm should ever leave the SPL. This Atlantic league idea is a load of rubbish. The passion for our game in Scotland is as strong as ever, and the old firm are part of that. Rangers and Celtic may be ahead, but they are not as far ahead of the other teams as people think.
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Personally I do not see why the Atlantic League (bad name by the way) was ever taken off the table in 1999/2000.
If Celtic and Rangers had continued to work with the main protagonists at the time (PSV, Ajax and Feyenoord) something might be in place by now. As it is, it will take years for a project like this to come to fruition.
Aside form the myriad television and sponsorship contracts across potentially 6-8 countries, there is the need to sway the political will of UEFA and the national associations to allow this.
However it would better to look at a model that looks at any potential pan-European league as a meritocracy. So for example if Scotland had 2 entrants into such a league, it should be the teams that finish in the top two (almost certainly Celtic and Rangers I know, but not 10% guaranteed).
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