European hangover set to linger
Waifs of the European storm, that's what we are.
Tortured souls staring into the football abyss, denied first by the spoilt little rich kids and, ultimately, by those not even as well off as ourselves.
Scottish football is in skid row.
In 13 attempts, five clubs - Hibs, Rangers, Queen of the South, Motherwell and Celtic - have between them failed to record one lousy victory.
It's a miserable return. Maybe even shameful.
And the fall-out? A diminishing return in the co-efficient, the currency which allowed our champions to strut, like owners of an access-all-areas pass into the group stages of the Champions League.
But, soon we'll be skulking in the back door like an errant husband in the wee small hours, hoping that the good lady won't be pacing the floor with the rolling pin.
It's a sorry, embarrassing state of affairs.
And there is little point of seeking salvation at international level, for the journey to South Africa is a ghost train ride.
The noise in the stalls is nervous coughing.
What a shambles, from Hibs' half hearted assault on the Inter Toto Cup, through the representation of the nation by a team who cannot even climb into our top league to Rangers' catastrophe in Kaunas.
And what of Celtic? They say that Guinness can't cross the water, but compared to the Parkhead club it is a traveller of Phileas Fogg proportions.
Murdo MacLeod was the last Celtic player to score the winning goal in a European Cup or Champions League game away from home and that was 22 years ago against Shamrock Rovers.
That is a scary statistic.
Good luck to Queen of the South, but when will we end this madness of the cup runners' up being allowed to fly the flag for Scotland?
Answers on a postcard please to Uefa.
In fact, when will we see an end to this flying of the Scottish flag at half-mast.
I've not yet bought my Christmas tree but already I've made my plans for the post New Year phase of the Champions' League and the Uefa Cup.
I'm putting my passport in the drawer and filling the fridge with beer.
Aalborg, if truth be told, were outrageously lucky against Celtic with a deflected shot and a bagatelle own goal by Gary Caldwell who performed brilliantly in the chill Danish night air.
Gordon Strachan's side should have been three up and out of sight at half-time, but then, taking your chances is a basic skill of the game.
Celtic ran out of luck in Denmark, but they had been using it up at some rate on the domestic front.
There is not a Celtic player who would get into the Manchester United side, but then there is not an Aalborg player who is more gifted than those who populate the home dressing room at Parkhead.
But still they crashed and burned.
I feel deflated and frustrated by it all, angry that we have to spend the rest of a season which is not yet at its midway point looking at domestic issues, pressing our noses against the European sweetie shop window.
You can slice it and dice it any way you want. You can analyse and tell some lies. You can spin the truth and put your head under the blanket.
But you know something?
Confession is good for the soul. And here's mine. We're not very good.
"Tell them who you are and what you are about," they said. To be honest, there are days when I struggle to remember myself. Forty years toiling at the coalface of football journalism does that to you. But I have reason to believe that I have reached the heady heights of the title of Football Correspondent of BBC Scotland which gives me a renown, in Scottish terms, of somewhere between Alex Salmond and the deep fried Mars Bar.
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~22~RS~)
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For once I agree with you. Total and utter shambles. The whole bloody lot of them.
PA-TH-ET-IC.
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This season has been poor but what about just missing out on European championships qualification to the reigning world champions in a group populated by three of arguably the best 10 teams in europe including the losing world cup finalists?
what about back - to - back wins against france?
What about a scottish team in the last 16 of the worlds premier club competition in three of the four last run outs in the competition
What about a scottish side in the uefa cup final twice in the last decade?
How many other countries outside England, Spain or Italy can claim those stats in recent years?
It's a bad season on the continent- thats football, but it's hardly the end of the world.
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"but when will we end this madness of the cup runners' up being allowed to fly the flag for Scotland?".
As a so-called sports journalist I thought he would know that Uefa have announced plans to revamp the Uefa cup and not allow cup runners-up to enter.
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Extremely poor article and a knee jerk reaction.
Don't get me wrong, this season Scottish teams have performed badly with Rangers suffering an embarrasing exit to Kaunas and even though Celtic were unlucky last night, it was still a disgrace they got knocked out last night.
But think back to last season Chic?
1. You were probably writing about how unlucky the national team was and how it was destined for a brighter future.
2. Rangers, even if not very excitingly, reached the UEFA Cup Final with a very limited but well organised team.
3. Celtic for the 2nd year running reached the last 32 of the Champions League.
4. Aberdeen reached the last 32 of the UEFA Cup and gave Bayern Munich a good run for their money in the 1st leg.
Have things really got that bad in the space of a year? I would just say this season is probably just making even the overachievement of Rangers, Celtic and Aberdeen last season.
Try find another nation with a similar size of population to Scotland and see how their teams are doing in Europe? Belgium? Sweden? Norway? You're struggling Chic.
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I don't know, I'd take McGeady over the useless Nani.
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Just incase some have forgotten, Rangers FC made the uefa cup final last year. Ya can't be Brilliant all the time, but being Rangers, you can Be Brilliant Most The Time. Rangers 51-42 Celtic. "We Welcome The Chase" Bill Struth.
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How can you slag Queen of the South and other runners up for their UEFA exploits do you actually believe the 4th team in the SPL would do any better, get real Chick and leave the wee clubs alone who are getting a much needed pay day, typical GLasgow attitude to the minnows!!!!
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The standard of Scottish of football is poor anyway. Season after season the top 2 fail to mount any sort of serious challenge on the title. The reality is that neither could even make it to the premier league's top four, five and maybe even 6 or 7. The way Villa are playing of late surely would justify them as more worthy recipients of a Champions League place than Celtic or Rangers. Scottish football would need a serious makeover in the coming years to have any hope of a Champions League finalist
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Last season we had 3 out of 4 teams in European competition post Christmas and the National team were doing well. What a contrast this year!!
What ever happened to that feelgood factor?
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Chic perhaps if you and other journos were to see the truth, things would change. Celtic and Rangers complain there is no competion in the SPL. However Celtic have been helped to at least 9 extra points by refs. DDutd refused a penalty, Aberdeen denied a last min goal, Penalty against St Mirren for a foul outside the box. Ect,Ect That's the reason Celtic can't compete in europe. They don't have the officials helping them.
Time for a level playing feild, and then they will get the competion they want. But they might just have to do with fewer wins and less games in europe as every other team would be given their chance instead! Can't see the GFA allowing that mind, but that's what's needed.
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Ah, here we go again....more of Scottish football self loathing from Chick 'Not that I'm one to complain' Young. So who instead of the Cup runner up should we have in the UEFA Cup....Motherwell?... Aberdeen?..Dundee United?, Cant think any team outside the Old Firm in the past 20+years who have done anything in Europe so who are we kidding. I think that QOS were perfectly entitled to a place in Europe this year as the rules stood, but as the goalposts are now being moved , so be it. So next season we can have one of the above team in instead, but the only thing is, when they go out of Europe early doors, what is going to be the excuse then?
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I watched Celtic in the late 1960s when they they were one of the the best teams in the world. I now live in the U.S. so I don't really understand what has happened Scottish football. When I was growing up everybody could play the game and there was very little coaching. Living in the US it seesm everybody serious about sport receives specialized and professional coaching from a young age. My son swims for his high school at its intense. scotland probably needs to change the way it does things.
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How much longer are we going to allow the Old Firm to bring our game down?
Many are under the delusion that the Old Firm are actually raising the standard in Scotland, but if that is true then why are we so bad in Europe?
Aalborg are 7th in the Danish Premier. This is not a good side yet Celtic only managed to take one point from six? The financial differences between both clubs are huge so Celtic cannot continue with the tired old argument that the other SPL sides are hurting the Old Firm.
The wealth in our game needs to be spread out far more evenly because it's clear that the Old Firm are just wasting what they get at our expense. It's time to break up this duopoly they have in our game - forcibily if necessary.
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As a Welshman I envy Scotland's success in Europe.
Scotland has for years punched above its weight in European football. Scotland has a population of 5 million... one tenth of England's. Even Denmark has a bigger population, but Danish clubs have had very little success.
It's already been pointed out above that Rangers reached the UEFA Cup Final just six months ago. Celtic held European Champions Manchester United just a couple of weeks ago and beat then in 2006.
Having said all that, Scotland has a problem domestically that may have an adverse effect on its European fortunes. Have a look at the SPL table. It's a two-horse race already and it's still only November.
Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen, Dundee United, etc. have got to challenge the Old Firm more than they have in recent years.
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7:21pm on 26 Nov 2008, MissionaryDave, are you serious?
What about aberdeen in the eighties or does your 20+ years only go as far as twenty five? Yeah great lets forget that. And what about Dundee Utd reaching the final of the uefa cup in 86, being the only british team to beat barcelona in two legs. So your 20+ years now drops to what 22 years? INCREDIBLE! Its offensive for you to say you cant think of a team outside of the old firm to do anything in europe. I think what you meant was you haven't got a clue.
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What about a scottish team in the last 16 of the worlds premier club competition in three of the four last run outs in the competition
What about a scottish side in the uefa cup final twice in the last decade?
How many other countries outside England, Spain or Italy can claim those stats in recent years?
It's a bad season on the continent- thats football, but it's hardly the end of the world.
---------------------------------------
Russia, Germany, France, Holland, Portugal... etc
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Manutddaft86, i'm pretty sure you'll find that 22 years IS 20+ years. And 22 years is an awfully long time in football, at that time clubs like villa, everton, forest and anderlecht etc were also having european success, but times change.
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Chick, "Murdo MacLeod was the last Celtic player to score the winning goal in a European Cup or Champions League game away from home and that was 22 years ago against Shamrock Rovers."
Does the 3-1 win in Amsterdam in 2001 not count as a European Cup win away from home? (Celtic won in Hungary and Lithuania 2 years later, too)
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hey chick,
i think some of these comment towards you are a tad unfair ,but i wouldn't worry, you get the haters on all forums.
A lot of the point you raise here are true. i didn't realise no wins out of 15, that is shocking. All the clubs, their player and staff should take notice of this, it's unnaccebtable. smaller nations and clubs that the old firm can achive much greater.
to be honest i'm a gers fan and saw it coming with us. and didnt expect much from the 3 smaller clubs, so credit to the well for their 1st leg result.
i'm not even gonna have a laugh at celtic, that not my style, but surely their fans cant be happy. their team let them down massively, as did walter smiths boys. shame on both old firm teams, they both seemed to wilt without any fight, what's that about?
So its all hands on deck and back to the grind of the SPL. and of course, gers are desperate to pry it back to ibrox and celtic more than willing to give everything to retain it. and it really important to both teams.
But what greater goal for either side can there be next season? Sod all if you ask me....
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Yeah but if you want to say twenty plus years surely dundee utd and aberdeen have done something in 20+ years so i think you'll find you're argument is nonsense.
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Don't get this wrong, I enjoy following my team in the SPL and the Scottish national team BUT its the same old story for Scottish football...consistent inconsistency!
Yes, Rangers, Celtic and Aberdeen did fantastically well last season, but why are these teams not doing it again this season?
And YES the national team did fantastically in the Euro Qualifiers BUT we have started the 2010 campaign with mediocre performances against Macedonia and then failed to beat a poor Norway in our own back yard. The Scotland manager, Mr Burley, has got to ask himself why players aren't playing for him. Can a nation our size afford to have players like Kris Boyd refusing to play for the manager when we have Chris Iwelumo failing to score into an empty net from 2 yards, debut or not. Call offs from the national side have increased yet again. I have my own theory that it has something to do with the manager. I was under the impression these call offs reduced under the reigns of Walter Smith and Big Eck, where players were playing for their country! We are almost at the farce of Berti Vogts' man management again in that respect - players don't want to play for their OWN country under certain managers, and if that IS the case then its a sad day for Scotland. But the past couple of squads have had names in them that really shouldn't be any where near the international squad and its this inconsistency in selection that is letting the side's performance down.
At club level both Rangers and Celtic capitulated to mediocre opposition this year in the Champions League. How any player in those dressing rooms could look at themselves after defeats to Kaunas and Aalborg, regardless of the luck involved in the losses, is beyond me. I wager that neither side would be a top six SPL side, let alone competing regularly on the European stage, yet Celtic and Rangers failed to beat them.
Last night, Samaras and Nakamura missed chances that they shouldn't have in the first 10minutes. They were both disgraceful efforts. Players of that calibre and players on their wages should not make excuses for misses like that. Those go in and the game was dead and buried. How is it possible that a team takes 1 point from 54 away from home. That is really not acceptable, especially given the drive and performance that is shown at Celtic Park. These players really should be playing better more consistently and I think Celtic have to start looking at themselves from the back and work their way forward.
Last season Rangers got to the Uefa cup Final beating teams that are competing in the Champions League this year but this year they couldn't beat the Hearts Boys Club. Allbeit there were injuries, lack of form and all the usual excuses...but at the end of the day the performance and the heart was lacking in both ties. I believe that the drive to get the multi-million pound pay day in Lithuania and at Ibrox was non existant in comparison to that shown in Bremen or in Lisbon or in Florence on route to that night in Manchester and the history books. Rangers have also been guilty of this inconsistency domestically. There have been great performances resulting in wins against Celtic, Kilmarnock and others where at times the football played resembled Arsenal at their best. Yet these results have regularly been followed with points being dropped at St Mirren, Motherwell and Dundee Utd. The reason for this??? i am at a loss.
And heaven forbid we forget the wonderfully consistent officiating shown by Scottish referees. If a football manager was performing the way that that lot do week in week out they simply wouldn't be in a job! I laughed so much at the start of the season when there was talk that the games wouldn't be played because the referees were going to strike over pay. Now I accept the argument "if you pay peanuts you get monkeys" and my word that is certainly what we are doing at the moment but go on lads prove that you are worth the money!! Is consistency really an impossible dream?
So it all goes to back to my point that Scottish football is consistently inconsistent from top to bottom and always has been. This seasons results should be no shock to the avid Scottish football follower. It can be explained by any number of reasons, take your pick from; there isn't enough money coming into the clubs to compete at the top European level year in year out, there isn't the quality of players coming through the youth systems, officiating is garbage.
We as fans we have to put up with it because we love the game and in reality wouldn't stop watching despite our teams appauling failings on the European front this season. At the end of the day while Scotland is showing signs of the impending credit crunch, we are used to the fact that Scottish football has always shown a consistency crunch!
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I remember my years in England in the fifties and sixties when every First Division team had two or three very good Scottish players. In fact you couldn`t the FA Cup or League title without them. My team Everton in the 1966 Cup Final win had Alec Young, Jimmy Gabriel, Alec Scott and Alec Parker all fantastic Scottsmen. Where are the current Scottish players now? I cannot think of any making a mark in the Premier Division.
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Hi Chick, Another good article but possibly a tad negative perhaps.
Results speak for themselves - Rangers beat by Kaunas - Kaunas beat by Aalborg - Aalborg beat Celtic! Don't quite know the relevance by this but many pundits have been saying potentially Aalborg could well be the worst team ever to compete in CL groups - what does that say about our top two! Or indeed thank god Rangers never made it.
The trouble I have trying to form some rational view is we don't really have a gauge of where we are in the pecking order, last year was a very good one last 32 last 16 and a major final - not bad for diddy teams. However surely we should be wiping the floor with these so called lesser teams?
We are all very good at explaining why we got beat post match but none of us can produce the magic potion called victory pre match. I enjoyed the game last night and thought Celtic played well - but lets be honest they lost the game which they had won - how many times have we all said this over the years. We seem to have the most extreme naivety when we go in front - a bit like the Scottish Rugby team who only starts playing when they are behind by 20 points.
maybe it just comes down to who wants it the most - till next year.
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Considering the SPL has been a joke competition for ages I think the Scottish teams invariably do reasonably well in Europe and this current season has been a bit of an anomaly.
However, I feel that supporters who do not follow Rangers or Celtic would not be crying at their European exits.
Scottish football has been a duoploy for far too many years and needs a complete overhaul to spice up interest and competition north of the border.
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Totally agree with you Chick on the ridiculous ruling that our cup runners up get the 4th uefa cup spot.
Its an absolute joke surely its our league so surely we should be able to choose our representatives to go into europe!!
Also if this stupid rule is going to remain why should it be the scottish cup runner-ups and not for instance; the CIS cup. By this it would bring up the respect for the so called 'diddy cup'. I say we have a play-off. Surely Dundee Utd would have had a better showing in the uefa cup than QoS. Plus that how spurs got in??
ps. gotta disagree on the man utd comment, im pretty sure sir alex would have Boruc over the ageing Van Der Sar any day!!
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I must partly agree with Chick as the standard of the Old Firm in Europe this year has been awful. Strachan and Smith have millions to spend but still fail to beat second rate teams such as Kaunus and Aalborg. Motherwell and QoS also failed to impress. However in the past few years Scottish teams have punched way above their weight with Celtic reaching the last 16 of the Champions League and Rangers getting to the Uefa Cup final all be it with a bit of luck! Aberdeen also impressed with a good Uefa Cup run which ended in Munich. What a night by the way ;). Chick you cant expect the country the size of Scotland to seriously challenge for the Champions League. The national team also impressed last year with several brilliant performances.
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hold on boruc's form has not been brilliant of late and i highly doubt any old firm player would get into the man united side.
qpr4me comment is nonsense as well, the gap in the spl is to do with money put into the clubs. before the money the league was very competitive in a title race sense.
the old firm dont get it all their own way. how many teams have been hard done by against the old firm already this season??
and yes scottish teams do punch above their weight generally, but this year as chick has so correctly pointed out they havent and unfortunately they havent come close to doing so.
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Lets be fair, Scottish football is very poor. and when I say poor I mean bad. I'm a rangers fan and we are shocking. we were rubbish last year as well when we scrapped to a european final, drawing and playing for a draw all the way through. Penalties saved us too many times and in my mind justice was so easily done in the final. Celtic too never justify top billing. There's no doubt in my mind that the small team they were playing yesterday thought that they were the weakest team in the group besides themselves.
Scottish fans really need to wake up to reality. The national team is poor by any standards with no good players, and the league teams, even the so called big ones are poor too. The players of these teams are on easy street collecting easy medals while they can before they return home to which ever country they came from where their league is much tougher.
I'm a season ticket holder and even I must admit that I'm one of the biggest fools in the business of Scottish football. Why do I pay to watch this dross. We'd get beaten or scrape a draw and hopefully get through on a penalty shoot out against any below average European team. Everyone wake up and admit it. Support your teams but don't expect anything.
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OK, I am English, so please explain again your league fixture set-up. I have a problem understanding how 10 teams get 38(?) fixtures. You have 4 divisions right? In a country of 5 million.
I live in Spain, with 40 odd million people and they don't have that many divisions.
Just a thought.
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it has been a very dissapointing season for scottish football. As a celtic fan last was a nite i definetly want to forget. But i feel we've been let down very badly this year by referees and linesmans we've, every game we've played in the champions leage we've had decisions going against us and they cost us results. I personally think celtic have been good in the champions league we've had a chain of luck tho. Hopefully scottish football will be back in business nxt season as its bn a horrible campaign, if george burley can get scotland on the run for south africa then i think that would put scotland back on the map, keep believing people, we've done this b4 and came back
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well chick a fascinating piece of bloggery that tells us all what we knew already. Scottish football is crap.
But, when you realise from the commenters that this is the internet and not a local daily, that the whole world come here to read, about scottish football, then the best can be said is that it is loved.
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yup definately a knee jerk reaction im afraid chick. yeah while i will agree all clubs performed bad, but in stark contrast to the seasons of old, its not the be all and end all of our european game. Looking over some of the comments made, it plain to see that yeah we do punch slightly above our weight, so this time we didnt. uefa semis and finals, last 16 or maybe even with luck last 8 of the champions league is all we will ever get. a bad european season, that can be put right by both the old firm enjoying a extended run in the premier competition followed with 3rd place spl doing something in the uefa cup.
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Celtic will probably go and win their last game now, with Villareal already through though, it would be a meaningless victory and I don't think it would even salvage any pride.
People comment about Scotland having a small population, but many in the old firm sides are foreign players, so what's he size of the population got to do with Celtic and Rangers lack of success? Maybe that's a reason though for the apparent lack of new young home grown talent for Scotland, and consequently why there doesn't seem to be the level of Scottish talent in the Premiership that there used to be.
I also think it's wrong to say another team should have been in the UEFA instead of QoS. Don't forget QoS would have beaten SPL teams to get to that final in the first place, so how anyone can argue that another SPL team would have done any better is beyond me.
I would say that comments that Celtic or Rangers would struggle in the Premiership are also a bit flawed. The game is ruled by money, more millions from the premiership means they can get beter players, so who knows how they would fare? except of course those who would put forward pure conjecture as probable fact.
Finally it's a bit unfair to criticise Iwelumo
for 1 miss, vital though it was. He was in the team on current form. Does anyone believe that Kris Boyd, or any other striker for that matter, never miss a sitter.
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A huge imbalance in resources in the SPL due to the religious factor.
An unfair and unbalanced carve up and distribution of TV money.
Teams playing each other 4 times a season.
We STILL don't provide adequate grass roots football facilities for kids across the board.
The out of date officialdom and unapproachability of the national bodies.
Admission prices.
Match Officials
No decent terrestrial TV package (screened in the wee small hours when we should be airing at a time kids can watch)
Any chance of something other than and Old Firm away game on Setanta?
Media accentuating the negative and focusing almost exclusively on the Old Firm.
Apart from all of that - the game's in good shape Chick.
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In 20-odd years Chico has failed to produce a piece of reporting remotely of interest to anybody.
You don't hear the clubs moaning.
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Come on Chick.... it's not been the best season for Scottish clubs but lets just keep some perspective here. You can't ever expect teams of Queen of the Souths quality or even that of Aberdeen or Hibs to do much in European competition - they just lack the skills and resources. And Hibs / Dons fan i don't mean that in a bad way it's not your fault. At Hibs as soon as a decent player breaks through there is noise about them being snapped up - and in recent years this has been happeing all the time. ie. Scott Brown, Kevin Thomson, Ian Murray, Whittaker and Kenny Miller etc. But look at it from a positive point of view. We know Hibs are never going to win the Champions league but when good players move onto the Old Firm or England then it shows how good the set up really is - and it happens so often I think we have to take our hats off to hibs and maybe other clubs try to recreate there youth policy.
Aberdeen have faultered since Fergie left all those years ago and lack of investment at the time to sustain the level they were at was a fundamental part of where they find themselves today. No money = no success in modern football. But that's not the fans fault.
If you look at the bigger picure though, Scotland have some extremely talented players and some potentially briliant players coming through - a lot of which are learning there trades at Liverpool, Man Utd and Everton not to mention of course Hibs and the Old Firm.
The future is bright Chick and even though this season has been disappointing by recent standards in Europe there are a lot of positives to take. The Old Firm finally has the base of Scottish players back and youth systems that are begining to churn out the talent that so much cash was invested in to develop (Murray Park and Lennoxtown). If the progression of Scottish players continues we have a bright future and that in turn will have a knock-on effect for our domestic game and International Team.
This season has been a blip but overall lets look to the future and the big picture.
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"A huge imbalance in resources in the SPL due to the religious factor."
What?! Nonsense! I'm sure the main reason that fans travel across the country every other weekend to Ibrox or Celtic Park, instead of supporting their local team, is simply because of glory hunting.
To suggest that, e.g. some people from Inverness decides to support Celtic instead of ICT because they are Catholic is simply wrong. Most of them are doing so because they are glory hunters (ironically, they'll be the same people who complain that teams like ICT are too wee to give the Old Firm a decent challenge!).
Anyway, Chic's article...
We take the pish out of the English for either saying their team is going to win the world cup, or that they are the worst team ever. We're doing the same now. After praising Scottish football to high heaven last season, Chic and co. are lamenting it's terminal decline. Pathetic!
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Chick,
Totally over the top article. You are never happier than when having a moan. This is not journalism, merely a rant from a embittered old man. Whats the problem Chick ? Is yor life really that bad ? .
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Caleylujah! You're having a laugh right? The religious side of things is not maybe as bad in the north - but in the Central Belt - it's the only factor.
Anyone who argues that The Old Firm are the size that they are because thay are a big successful club first - with the religious legacy somewhere else down the pecking order is quite frankly delusional.
It's perpetual - the legacy is handed down from generation to generation. Those two will always be massive, sadly and fundamentaly down to their position as the focal point for religious output in this country. Look at the massive merchandise sales for people who don't even go to games.
religion and not success on the field is the number 1 reason for the imbalance in resources.
I think even Old Firm fans would agree with this!
Oh and btw - this isn't 'off topic' - I think it's a fundamental part of taday's situation. If we spread the common resources around more evenly - our clubs would have a better chance of putting up a challenge in Europe.
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I've read a lot of the comments on here and I have one very simple point to make.
What happened last year at club level and international level was phenomenal and brought back the hope and pride in the Scottish game.
As per usual hope tends to be shortlived in Scottish football.
You are only as good as your last result and none of our recent results have been pretty.
At the end of the European qualifiers I thought we were going to qualify for SA. Now, I think we'll be very very lucky if we come close!
Chicks blog appears to have been written by a proud fan rather than a journo so why not take it as that?
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As mentioned by #32 and others, the structure of our league is ridiculous. Why on earth do we persist with this bizarre structure of 4 small leagues, with the top tier splitting into two for the last 5 games?
What we need is a top tier of 16 or 18, with teams playing each other just twice. This would make the league much more interesting, even for just the fact that you weren't paying to see the same teams 4 times per season. Teams currently in the first division will get bigger crowds, bringing more ticket sales into the league as a whole, and increasing the scope of interest for televised games, thus increasing TV audiences, which in turn would increase the price the SPL can demand for the games.
Of course, this will never happen, as the clubs are more concerned with having those extra money-spinning games with the Old Firm. That's typical short-sightedness, but as long as money rules the game, short-term profit will always come before long-term gains.
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As a fan of a Scottish club outwith the Old Firm, it's actually quite funny to watch them get a spanking in Europe. Yes, it's no use for us as a nation but having to hear all these Rangers and Celtic fans whinge and moan about decisions going against them week-inweek-out when clearly no teams other than them get as many decisions in their favour, it gives me very little sympathy when I see team like Aalborg pinch a win.
At the end of the day, buying the competition's best players (Riordan, Caldwell, Killen, Hartley, Brown, Thomson, Naismith, Boyd, Whittaker, Gow etc,etc....) can buy you domestic success, but to think you can go and conquer Europe with them is just naive.
I'm sorry but you're in dreamland if you think that Caldwell, Mcmanus, Wilson and chums are likely to keep some of the world's deadliest attacks at bay. I'm not surprised, nor particularly bothered that the Old Firm made massive mugs of themselves in Europe this year!
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It certainly is time something was done about Scotland's shame. Year after year it's the same. No improvement in the basics. Lack of training, lack of education, lack of basic talent. When will Scotland finally get the standard of journalism it deserves.
Were not going to South Africa are we? Well if Chick was any sort of a journalist he'd know the current Holland football team are one of the weakest Dutch teams in more than twenty years. And Norway seem to have given up the ghost. But that would take a bit of research. A lack of basic training...talent...etc.
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You can't build quality league teams without a quality league.
It's like a family - inbreeding year after year leads to a poor gene pool and retardation.
Somehow or other, the biggest three teams of Scotland have got to get into a bigger league. (Three? Yes, three. That way whoever finishes top of the SPL changes place with whoever finishes bottom of those three).
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Problem with that Midland 20 is that any bigger league would only accept 1 of the 3.
The chances of any of the regular top 2 playing in any country other than Scotland died in Manchester - April 2008
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As a fan of a club outside the old firm i think Rangers and Celtic have just hit a bad spell after their well deserved success over the last few years in the Champions League and UEFA Cup. I don't think it is a time to panic but just a time to dust ourselves down and try and learn from the mistakes made this year and go again next season.
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#50
If you are referring to the shambolic organisation by the Manchester authorities during the staging of a major sporting event in which less than 0.1% of the participants caused trouble, then I believe the month you are referring to is May.
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What about a scottish team in the last 16 of the worlds premier club competition in three of the four last run outs in the competition
What about a scottish side in the uefa cup final twice in the last decade?
How many other countries outside England, Spain or Italy can claim those stats in recent years?
It's a bad season on the continent- thats football, but it's hardly the end of the world.
---------------------------------------
Russia, Germany, France, Holland, Portugal... etc
Ok lets look at it in terms of the last two years or so that was being reffered to in the first place:
Italy are the World Champions, Spain are the European Champions. Man Utd hold the European Cup and fair play Zenit hold the Uefa Cup - but compare the resources available to the two European club competition holders to that of Scots clubs - the gulf is outragous, even tho Zenit had to beat a Scots club in the Uefa Cup final.
As for other Russian block sides - Shaktar Donesk are in position to drop out of the champions league, again (just like last year when a Scots team finished in front of them)as are Zenit and Dynamo Kiev - so they're not exactly setting the world alight are they?
Munich are doing ok for Germany even tho they were again held by a Scots team in Aberdeen last year (if only for one game) - their counterparts Werded Bremen are set to drop out of European cometition altogether so your only half right in terms of German football.
As for France - Lyon are through the group stages of the Champions League but when have they ever really mounted a serious challenge for the title? Marseille and Bordeaux are both looking at Uefa Cup football at best and in the Uefa cup PSG are bottom of their group - so the French league isn't exactly batheing itself in glory this season - the only reason their national side does well is that a large proportion of their players play outside the French league.
As for Holland - when was the last time a Dutch side won anything outside of Holland? Ajax, ten years or so ago? This year won't be their year either as far as i can see since PSV are out of the Champs League.
Portugal have done well in the last few years in the form of Porto, but again their Uefa success was against a Scots side in the final and since their Champs league win the next year they've hardly figured in the clubs in the running for any European title, Sporting have qualified for the last 16 this year - but it's the first time they've done it so theyre hardly consistent campaigners are they?
So who are the 'etc' - Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Belgium, Croatia, Serbian, Slovakia, Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Greece, Lithuania, Monaco, Poland or Switzerland? Is it Israel or Turkey because i can't remember any of these side winning any of the competitions we're talking about recently - maybe you mean Iceland or Ireland (North or South) or Wales?
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I may have made a mistake with the month.
However the fact remains - whatever happened that night - majority / minority / english / scottish / big telly breakdown / too much drink / lack of planning - or whatever.
The move to England is off!!
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Why take away the UEFA cup place for the cup runners up? I'm sure the fans of QoS who were lucky enough to travel abroad this season will agree that a couple of decimal points reduction in the co-efficient were worth the (possibly) once in a lifetime chance to see their team in Europe. I watched Dunfermline last season in Gothenberg and although we got knock out the trip was fantastic.
Why not go the whole hog and just allocate the places to the four biggest clubs? Pandering to Scottish footballs "Goliaths" will be to the detriment of the dreams of all the "Davids"
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
So, you have a go at Queen of the South for making it into the UEFA Cup, despite thier 'lowly' status? Why?
"...We're not very good."
I admire your honesty Chic, so here's one from me:
Neither are you.
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I don't believe the move to England was ever really on. The fact that Danny Shittu decides he'd rather play in the Championship than move to Rangers shows how far off the Old Firm are from being considered for a place in the Premiership.
The Old Firm are now signing players from the Championship because they just can't afford to bring top class players in. They are Championship level and if they ever did get allowed into the Premiership, they'd be in the Championship within a matter of a few seasons anyway.
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It's a funny old game football, isn't it. You never can predict the results of games, which is why there is often only one winner, the bookmakers.
If you are bored of being so negative Chick, here's a little game you could play.
Take all the results of Scottish sides last season in Europe and find out what the best odds you could have got for those results would be.
Combine all those odds to give you a 'probability' of those results.
Although we've had some strange results this season (primarily the Kaunas v Rangers and Celtic v Aalborg results) I'll wager that the probability of these results was more likely than those of last season.
My point being, yes, we've had a shocker this season but we had a blinder last season and thats simply the way things work (in football) sometimes.
I'd also be interested to see ratios of (current european national coefficient):(average television income for a top flight club) for the 20 top leagues in Europe and see where Scotland lie. Again (maybe I have too much money), I'd wager we were top 6 if not higher.
Look on the bright side for once ffs.
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Chic,
Phil McNulty, Tim Vickery and Gavin Strachan all respond to visitors comments, it would be interesting for you to respond back as it would be interesting to hear you defend this highly incompetent article.
Point 12. Missionary Dave:
"So who instead of the Cup runner up should we have in the UEFA Cup....Motherwell?... Aberdeen?..Dundee United?, Cant think any team outside the Old Firm in the past 20+years who have done anything in Europe so who are we kidding."
Aberdeen reaching the last 32 of the UEFA was a brilliant achievement and so was Hearts just reaching the group stages of the UEFA Cup a couple of seasons ago. Check your facts 1st please.
Point 22. Consistent Inconsistency. Seriously what do you expect from a small nation? All small countries have peaks and troughs. Croatia after their fantastic World Cup 1998 failed to qualify for Euro 2000 and were poor at WC2002 and 2006 and Euro 2004 until a brilliant team in 2008.
Speaking as a 22 year old, I first started watching football in the mid 90s and most Scottish teams were performing poorly. Since then we've had commendable & unlucky performances from Advocaat's Rangers and O'Neill's Celtic in the Champions League, Celtic reaching the UEFA Cup Final in 2003, Rangers reaching the last 16 of the champions under McLeish in 2006, Celtic twice in a row reaching the last 16 of the champions league and for me (ok, i'm a bit biased, I'm a dons fan) Aberdeen reaching the last 32 of the UEFA Cup was a fantastic achievement, which I feel should provide inspiration to the likes of Hibs, Hearts, United etc that they can achieve in Europe.
In other words, the older generation were spoilt by the strength of Scottish football and things have changed in European Football with the TV money rocketing up in certain leagues, Premiership being the main 1, the improvement in facilities and experience in ex-Yugoslavian and USSR countries and various clubs funded by major benefactors (Shakhtar, Zenit St.Petersburg, CFR Cluj).
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It's fine to blame UEFA, (and Rangers and Celtic).
But to me Chic is missing the point. The blame should lie firmly at the feet of the SFA. However, neither Chic nor his peers like to face up to that as it might create an awkward situation on their next away junket together.
I am old enough to remember the "Ernie Walker Think Tank." What, apart from a neat pile of air flight ticket stubs and hotel receipts, did that create?
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#3 borogef:
I totally agree that not only Chick but quite a few of his pseudoprofessional colleagues on teh Beeb should do a bit more basic fact-checking.
But you weaken your case by getting the facts wrong yourself. The plans you refer to were announced by the UEFA executive right enough but they were thrown out by the member associations. Chick is right to say that UEFA are the stumbling block on that issue.
He's still wrong about most other things though. For a start one bad year won't wreck our coefficient, any more than one good year improved it very much. I'm fed up hearing journos pontificate about coefficients when they don't have the first clue what they mean. Do your homework Chic.
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#44 johnnydefault: "in the Central Belt - religion is the only factor"?
As a Protestant Celtic fan from the Central Belt, I'd tend to disagree with you.
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Ive always followed Celtic in Europe and Im always excitied when they play these massive games.
I disagree with some of the points in this blog:
Celtic are a good team. however they are not the best team, however there are 1 or 2 outstanding talents in the team, being an arsenal supporter who i admire. such as Boruc who I see as one of the best keepers in Britain, and aiden mcgeady who has some quality talent, They have the core of a good team , and 2 or 3 additions will see them improve the dismal european away record
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#63 markrp
hands up you're one of the 0.00024% that make my statement so untrue terrible and sweeping.
You a) must agree that if you are being completely honest - you are in a miniscule minority and b) that for the gargantuan majority of your fellow celtic supporters it's that fundamental triggering factor in which team they end up supporting.
I think if I'd come out and said 'religion sometimes has a bearing on why someone supports Rangers or Celtic' it would have been a touch on the understatement side.
You surely wouldn't argue that the religious overtones from at games at celtic park and Ibrox are huge.
Are you as #42 Caleylujah describes a glory hunter - or are you from Gallowgate and you're just supporting your local team?
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Jockinwales.
Chick writes as a 'proud fan' not as a journalist. Thats the whole problem, he's supposed to be a journalist !!!. Instead we get this steady stream of anachronistic and parochial tripe. If I want to listen to proud fans spouting tosh, I'll go down the pub.
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As delighted as i was by Celtic's embarrasing euro exit,i think as usual you are tryin to generate interest in your blog by being controversial rather than have something to write about.I think you are bang out of order in your criticism,can you name another country as small as ours that has produced to european finalists in the last 6 years?
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Whilst agreeing with Chick that allowing the runners up of the Scottish Cup to represent us in Europe damages our coefficient, I feel he is being harsh on Queen of the South who got there on merit and have done no better and no worse than the so called bigger teams. In fact at the time of replying Queen of the South are Scotlands joint top scorers in Europe this season (albeit with only 2 goals) and it took Celtic 5 games to score 2. would like to see his comments should St Mirren reach Europe.
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Usual old tripe from Chick, regurgitated almost every season. If he was described by Burley, it would be 'of limited ability'. Bring back Graeme Spiers to Scottish football journalism. At least he had a story to tell and could think of ones all on his own.
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To Quote 33#:
But i feel we've been let down very badly this year by referees and linesmans we've, every game we've played in the champions leage we've had decisions going against us and they cost us results.
Now you know how every team in the SPL feel! How many points have your team been gifted by refs? At least NINE!
Player wrongly sent off for StMirren early in the season, DDutd refused a stonewall penalty, Aberdeen refused a last minute goal, Penalty agains StMirren when the foul was outside the box( and a player sent off!)Borac's assault and only a yellow?And many ,many more decisions that go your way during every game you play. Go cry me a river ! The reason you are hopeless in europe is you don't have the ref's supporting you.
If you take away these gifted points and allow the points STOLLEN from Hearts, We
have had a penaly overturned by a linesman, and a goal disallowed against Hibs. Had we got those 6points and remove the gifted 9points from Celtic, we would be above Celtic. That's how poor you are this season, as Hearts are very poor this year.
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@62 gatalife
Many thanks for pointing out my error.
At least I don't get paid for this and I DO reply, unlike Mr. Young.
Cheers.
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This is the same chick young that rubbished Aberdeen's European campaign last year after we managed to stay in the competition until the middle of February.
Perhaps it may not of been as 'easy' as it appeared at the time chick.
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point 60,
if you read what I said i think it was quite clear that I was not surprised or expecting more from the national team then consistent inconsistency. I was making a comment that despite the team doing brilliantly last year they have failed to produce this year and in truth that is no great surprise.
But i believe this is because of the man management that is going on in the Scottish camp at the moment. Very few players appear to want to play for this manager in comparison to his predecessors.
Your argument that we are a small nation so we must be inconsistent is nonsense. Believe it or not even the big countries are inconsistent in their own ways....but why is being a small nation a reason for being inconsistent and at times mediocre, when the Netherlands consistently make it to major championships and in fact have won them on occasion. I believe it is the "its ok we are a small nation" attitude that is our problem in the international sporting arena in both football and rugby. Being a small nation doesn't appear to stop us from producing world class atheletes in cycling (Chris Hoy) or in tennis (Andy Murray).
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johnnydefault, I'm no glory hunter. I'm 33 years old. If I was a gloryhunter I'd have been supporting Aberdeen for the last 25+ years, like some of my mates. I was born in the east of Glasgow as it happens (although not the Gallowgate - sorry), but I don't see why I have to justify my love of the team I support.
I just don't think sweeping generalisations help in such a volatile environment.
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lets not overreact. i think this season was just a bad one for all scottish teams.
im sure next one will be better.
still, this must be like a wake up call.
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Ah you couldn't help yourself could you Chick...
"Celtic ran out of luck in Denmark, but they had been using it up at some rate on the domestic front."
It was a trip, no martial arts involved, pure and simple...anyone who says otherwise has an agenda...what's your agenda Chick?
What is it about Glasgow Celtic that makes you act so unprofessionally?
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i wonder what historical event jamesmoore1690 is harping back to.
Celtic fans get slammed for mentioning the fact they won the big one in 67 yet, we get halfwits like this who revel in a war fought 300 years ago. I wonder what mr moore would think if someone put 1916 at the end of their name.
We will never move on in scotland as long as we have this type of idiot thinking it is funny to put something like this in his user name.
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I don't think its too much of an knee jerk reaction, Scottish teams are consistently poor in Europe. Being satisfied with the record of Scottish clubs is to be satisfied with being a loser.
The fact is that Celtic & Rangers can take Euro qualification for granted. They can actually beat anyone on their day but hey, i saw Bristol Rovers beat Fulham in the FA cup last year but that doesn't mean they could survive 5 seconds in the Premier League. Becoming consistent at the top level can never be acheived by teams from such an uncompetitive a league as the SPL.
As an Englishman i will always support Scottish clubs in Europe over any opposition apart from an English club and i'd love to see them do better (an opinion that is pretty widespread South of the border but perhaps isn't reciprocated?)
Perhaps a British league is the only way for Scottish clubs to move forward, i think that would be great but hey, there's far too many oddballs who think they'll feel less English or less Scottish - perhaps thats another debate.
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Im getting fed up with people saying in the spl celtic have been favoured by the refs and the linesmans. That is simply not true whatsoever. Yes i do admit we've bn favoured a few times bt i dnt think it woodve made any differences. Rangers fans need to remember they've had the fair share this season as well. Hearts were denied a stone-wall penalty at ibrox and kris boyds 2nd goal was offside against hamilton. Hamiltons goal against us was offside if u watch it carefully. Wen we got the penalty against st.mirren ppl need 2 remember we shoodve had a penalty b4 tht 1 anyway so justice was done tht day. The dundee united game is the only game i can think of we got a get out of jail free card. The other few games the refs made mistakes i still think we woodve won anyway. So enough of this "celtic have been lucky this season" winning 11 games in a row has nothing to do with luck!
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As always chick more questions than answers and a number of cliches from your article!
If as its completely obvious to everyone scottish teams have massively underachieved in europe this year as opposed to overachieving last year why has this happened? and what can be done to correct this and improve in future years?
Also why do you never respond to comments unlike other bloggers on this site?
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Chicolite,
For once, I have to agree with you. Regarding your confession, I mean. You're not very good.
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'As for Holland - when was the last time a Dutch side won anything outside of Holland? Ajax, ten years or so ago?'
Feyenoord 3-2 Borussia Dortmund
UEFA Cup Final; May 8, 2002
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Have things really got that bad in the space of a year? I would just say this season is probably just making even the overachievement of Rangers, Celtic and Aberdeen last season.
Yes, they have - thats the whole point of this blog.
Last year, scottish clubs went out and made the country proud. I would be one of the first to say that you're national team was brilliant in qualifying and you deserved to win the group in my opinion. It was an outrageous refereeing desicion that cost you Euro 2008 qualifying.
Now, you see queen of the south losing out too easily in the Uefa cup, Motherwell failing to score a single goal against Nancy, Rangers losing against the "mighty Kaunas" in CL qualification, (the same Kaunas who got massacred 5-0 by Sampdoria), Celtic consantly losing away whilst picking up only draws at home and the national team ridiculusly underperforming to a level that it would be hard to see them qualify now.
I can't understand what has happened in 1 summer but I do agree with Chick. The standards of Scottish football has just dropped and all of the teams are out europe before Christmas.
Something is wrong
PS. I will undobtbly be asked this so: I am English.
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everytime one of the smaller scottish teams get a half decent player one of the glasgow teams buys him and sticks him in the reserves !!! Celtic have got Samaras as one of their main strikers the guy couldnt even get in the Man City team , Rangers play the worse football i have ever seen .....reap what you sow scottish football ...reap what you sow !!
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Always the negative, never the positive, load of rubbish again Chick! Remember the great games over the last 5/6 years, Celtic beating Man U, AC Milan, Juventus, Porto, Lyon, Benfica, and even Liverpool away, yes it was Uefa cup, but it was still one of the best victories in recent years. Also Rangers beating Lyon away and can't remember others off the top of my head cause I'm a hoops fan, but there's been a few. Yes, the away games have been bad and at times embarrasing, but no need to focus so heavily on the negative, I think the positive games have maybe spoiled us a bit much, but as a nation, I still think we're doing better than we maybe should.
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Always the negative, never the positive, load of rubbish again Chick! Remember the great games over the last 5/6 years, Celtic beating Man U, AC Milan, Juventus, Porto, Ajax, Lyon, Benfica, and even Liverpool away, yes it was Uefa cup, but it was still one of the best victories in recent years. Also Rangers beating Lyon away and can't remember others off the top of my head cause I'm a hoops fan, but there's been a few. Yes, the away games have been bad and at times embarrasing, but no need to focus so heavily on the negative, I think the positive games have maybe spoiled us a bit much, but as a nation, I still think we're doing better than we maybe should.
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I agree with Chick that we are not good enough.beating France twice was great but we must be realistic we rode our luck big time as did Rangers in the EUFA cup.
Having watched Scotland at u16 and u21 level recently the future i am afraid doesn't look any brighter.How many players have we produced over the years that are good enough for the English premier league ?...No many. So why oh why do we always see boasts by sfa connections that our coaching is one of the best in Europe ?? The u16's appear to be encouraged to lump the ball long.I can only imagine the reason being in case thay loose it to the opposition and loose a goal.Big wow if we do i say. The kids must be encouraged to keep the ball on the deck because its the way ahead. It does work just watch Arsenals youngsters in the carling cup, thats how to encourage youths to play the game.A good look at the coaching structure is needed and changes needed now.If not we will still be writing about "how far we are behind everyone else" in 10 years time.Time to change our ways.Winning fromU19 and down is not important...trying to play FOOTball is
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i think a big part of the problem is that the spl is not just a 2 horse race from november-it's a 2 horse race from day one!
you've got the same 2 clubs wirh all the money, and all the domestic success who can do sod all when they get to europe. the whole game in scotland needs a damn good shake up!
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amazing how fickle football fans / journalists are - things can't have gone that far downhill in less than 12 months.
Having two teams reach the uefa cup final in the last 5/6 years, a team qualify for the last 32 of the CL at least 3 times and a national team push Italy and France (footballing giants!) for qualification is what i would call unparalleled success for a small country since the turn of the millennium.
at the national level, the team must aspire to perform like Greece - very well organised despite limited ability. However, even after their success in 2004, they have performed poorly.
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oh dear, when will you scots admit that your top league isnt even as strong as league 1 in england. your lucky your even allowed in europe for the calibre of teams in your country you have to play to qualify. as for the insult of greece from the guy who said they are poor now, erm check again they are in top 2 of their group and look like qualifying. your league is shameful. sooner uefa takes europe away from your clubs and gives it to a stronger league, say the english team reserve competition(which yes is stronger than scotland) the better
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Remember this?
-----------------------------
Faroe Islands vs Scotland
Presenter: We have Jim on the line who wants to discuss the Faroe Islands / Scotland game.
Jim: Thanks...er yeah. Just want to say it's an absolute disgrace. I mean, we're playing probably the weakest side in world football and we can't do better than a draw.
Presenter: It was a poor result.
Jim: Poor result! Poor result! It's absolutely scandalous. The manager has lost the plot completely, he's got to go. I know we've never set the world alight over the years on the international stage but I can't remember things being this bad. It's the end for us. The absolute end. I can't see us ever recovering from a setback like this. We're a complete laughing stock.
Presenter: Look Jim. I know it seems bad now but there is still a long way to go. I can't see you qualifying for Euro 2004 but hopefully things will improve.
Jim: I never expected for a moment we would qualify. I don't mind that so much. We're not good enough. But listen, to not qualify is one thing, but to fail to beat a team like Scotland is a different matter. It's a bitter blow for everyone here on the Islands.
(Uproar in the studio)
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Well found Maestro :)
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